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Another aside?

I’m hoping the updated Assault Terminators will lose the Knuckle Duster Lightning Claws, and go back to them being built in.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Another aside?

I’m hoping the updated Assault Terminators will lose the Knuckle Duster Lightning Claws, and go back to them being built in.

From your mouth to the GW sculptuor's ear. One of the reasons why the Kataphract Terminators are such nice models, proper Lighting Claws.

 stonehorse wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Another aside?

I’m hoping the updated Assault Terminators will lose the Knuckle Duster Lightning Claws, and go back to them being built in.

From your mouth to the GW sculptuor's ear. One of the reasons why the Kataphract Terminators are such nice models, proper Lighting Claws.

IMO, proper lightning claws to go with the classic Indomitus look would be the ones from Space Marine Heroes 2 (Brother Sanyctus).

That bulky lightning claw style made sense from a rules perspective in 2nd edition where the LC was a super power fist, from 3rd onwards it didn't. I'd like to see a more normalized size similar to the Black Templars sword brethren version. Unless the lightning claw rules are drastically changed which I doubt.

Mchagen wrote:
That bulky lightning claw style made sense from a rules perspective in 2nd edition where the LC was a super power fist, from 3rd onwards it didn't. I'd like to see a more normalized size similar to the Black Templars sword brethren version. Unless the lightning claw rules are drastically changed which I doubt.

They changed for Chaos Terminators!

Mchagen wrote:
That bulky lightning claw style made sense from a rules perspective in 2nd edition where the LC was a super power fist, from 3rd onwards it didn't. I'd like to see a more normalized size similar to the Black Templars sword brethren version. Unless the lightning claw rules are drastically changed which I doubt.

No, it continued making sense after 3rd. They were always attached to a rule that made them easier to hit with. It's not easier to hit things with a Wolverine halloween prop. But it *would* be easier to hit things with individually-articulated fingers, grasping attacks, etc.

I would rather the finger talon style lightning claws stay a Cataphractii pattern thing. But the knuckle duster style, yeah that can go. There is a different option though that looks good:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
I would rather the finger talon style lightning claws stay a Cataphractii pattern thing. But the knuckle duster style, yeah that can go. There is a different option though that looks good:

Yes, the original and still the best.

 Altruizine wrote:

Mchagen wrote:
That bulky lightning claw style made sense from a rules perspective in 2nd edition where the LC was a super power fist, from 3rd onwards it didn't. I'd like to see a more normalized size similar to the Black Templars sword brethren version. Unless the lightning claw rules are drastically changed which I doubt.

No, it continued making sense after 3rd. They were always attached to a rule that made them easier to hit with. It's not easier to hit things with a Wolverine halloween prop. But it *would* be easier to hit things with individually-articulated fingers, grasping attacks, etc.

They weren't easier to hit with in 3rd edition, they had re-roll wounds.

Punch style weapons that attach near wrist and such are not difficult to hit with, so I'm not sure what the rest of what you typed is going on about.

In 2nd Ed, you got a pair of parries, and still hit like a truck.

For sake of clarity, combat worked by rolling dice equal to your attacks, adding your WS to the highest. Compare the scores, and whoever scored highest landed the difference in hits. A parry forced your opponent to re-roll an attack die. And whilst I think it was just a house rule for expedience, we always allowed two models with parry to cancel each other out.

So having a pair of parries in hand was surprisingly powerful, as even if you didn’t win the roll, you still stood a chance of reducing your opponent’s to-wound pool.

I definitely wouldn’t mind Lighting Claws going back to being powerfists+ and throwing in that parry bit would be nifty.
Maybe two profiles, offensive and defensive, that have different attributes. The things were always supposed to be specialist gear that users generally developed their own styles with.

Mchagen wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

Mchagen wrote:
That bulky lightning claw style made sense from a rules perspective in 2nd edition where the LC was a super power fist, from 3rd onwards it didn't. I'd like to see a more normalized size similar to the Black Templars sword brethren version. Unless the lightning claw rules are drastically changed which I doubt.

No, it continued making sense after 3rd. They were always attached to a rule that made them easier to hit with. It's not easier to hit things with a Wolverine halloween prop. But it *would* be easier to hit things with individually-articulated fingers, grasping attacks, etc.

They weren't easier to hit with in 3rd edition, they had re-roll wounds.

Punch style weapons that attach near wrist and such are not difficult to hit with, so I'm not sure what the rest of what you typed is going on about.

You're right about the wounds vs. hits, I believe (I was thinking of the parry effect). But the second part of this post is not true. Having a rigid thing sticking out of your forearm isn't ergonomic weapon design. Danger-fingers are, but aren't practical in the real-world due to things that can be overcome in a sci-fi setting (like wrist/finger strength being augmented by powered armour).

 Altruizine wrote:

Mchagen wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

Mchagen wrote:
That bulky lightning claw style made sense from a rules perspective in 2nd edition where the LC was a super power fist, from 3rd onwards it didn't. I'd like to see a more normalized size similar to the Black Templars sword brethren version. Unless the lightning claw rules are drastically changed which I doubt.

No, it continued making sense after 3rd. They were always attached to a rule that made them easier to hit with. It's not easier to hit things with a Wolverine halloween prop. But it *would* be easier to hit things with individually-articulated fingers, grasping attacks, etc.

They weren't easier to hit with in 3rd edition, they had re-roll wounds.

Punch style weapons that attach near wrist and such are not difficult to hit with, so I'm not sure what the rest of what you typed is going on about.

You're right about the wounds vs. hits, I believe (I was thinking of the parry effect). But the second part of this post is not true. Having a rigid thing sticking out of your forearm isn't ergonomic weapon design. Danger-fingers are, but aren't practical in the real-world due to things that can be overcome in a sci-fi setting (like wrist/finger strength being augmented by powered armour).

I'm not buying what you're selling. I'll leave it at that.

On the in-universe application? 2nd Ed made it clear they required specific training in their correct use. Not just thrusting, but blocking, parrying, slashing - and when to use each. And indeed how not to spike oneself right in the cod’s during a particularly exuberant bout of fisticuffs.

As a treat for listening to my wibbling, here’s my favourite art of said exuberant bouts of fisticuffs.

 Altruizine wrote:
Having a rigid thing sticking out of your forearm isn't ergonomic weapon design. Danger-fingers are, but aren't practical in the real-world

Considering Katars and punch daggers exist for actual combat and "finger-knives" don't, the real world designing of things disagrees with you.

I just want it to go back to where Thunder Hammers and Lightning Claws required so much power to operate that only Terminators could use them.

And to Lightning Claws being so rare during the Horus Heresy that only Horus actually had a pair of them, and no one below an Aspiring Champion was of high enough rank to have even one.

It just cheapens them if little marines can use them.

And yes, 1st edition Space Hulk was my first GW game, and anything smaller than a Terminator will always be a Little Marine.

The cat's been out of the bag for all of that for so long that going back would piss off far more people than it would please for the nostalgia

Removed - rule #1 please

Quick video from a bladed weapons expert specifically talking about 40k Lightning Claws. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxJQLZ6PD3s

Can the 'expertise' on fake weapons go somewhere other than the 10th edition news thread?

I'm surprised all these talk about lighting claws, and nobody noticed in the terminator profile, the power weapon description. We probably getting the accursed weapon treatment with 10th ... so expect LCs to be power weapon +1A lol

Which isn't exactly a horrible thing. Lightning Claws were traditionally Power Weapons Plus back when Power Swords, Mauls, and Axes were the same thing.

 alextroy wrote:
Which isn't exactly a horrible thing. Lightning Claws were traditionally Power Weapons Plus back when Power Swords, Mauls, and Axes were the same thing.

Not exactly. They were more Power Swords+ since the extra attack you got with the pistol was worth less than rerolling to wound on everything. Otherwise, the Axe and Maul both had niches.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Which isn't exactly a horrible thing. Lightning Claws were traditionally Power Weapons Plus back when Power Swords, Mauls, and Axes were the same thing.

Not exactly. They were more Power Swords+ since the extra attack you got with the pistol was worth less than rerolling to wound on everything. Otherwise, the Axe and Maul both had niches.

He’s referring to when axes and mails weren’t separate weapons, which I believe was 3rd and 4th ed.

 morganfreeman wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Which isn't exactly a horrible thing. Lightning Claws were traditionally Power Weapons Plus back when Power Swords, Mauls, and Axes were the same thing.

Not exactly. They were more Power Swords+ since the extra attack you got with the pistol was worth less than rerolling to wound on everything. Otherwise, the Axe and Maul both had niches.

He’s referring to when axes and mails weren’t separate weapons, which I believe was 3rd and 4th ed.

Oh yeah. Sorry, can't read today

I'm looking forward to seeing power weapon profiles condensed. CCW, power weapon, lightning claw, power fist, thunder hammer. Outside of unique weapons that's all the imperial armies need.

Bob Lorgar wrote:
I just want it to go back to where Thunder Hammers and Lightning Claws required so much power to operate that only Terminators could use them.

And to Lightning Claws being so rare during the Horus Heresy that only Horus actually had a pair of them, and no one below an Aspiring Champion was of high enough rank to have even one.

It just cheapens them if little marines can use them.

And yes, 1st edition Space Hulk was my first GW game, and anything smaller than a Terminator will always be a Little Marine.

Don't get me started on guardsmen toting heavy flamers!

Bob Lorgar wrote:
I just want it to go back to where Thunder Hammers and Lightning Claws required so much power to operate that only Terminators could use them.

And to Lightning Claws being so rare during the Horus Heresy that only Horus actually had a pair of them, and no one below an Aspiring Champion was of high enough rank to have even one.

It just cheapens them if little marines can use them.

I think the rarity is cool as well, but I don't think we'll ever see them roll that back. It would also feel bad for everyone who owns a set of Warp Talons.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm looking forward to seeing power weapon profiles condensed. CCW, power weapon, lightning claw, power fist, thunder hammer. Outside of unique weapons that's all the imperial armies need.

Fully agreed, I like modeling axes and swords and thus prefer they have the same profile when my squad rams into another squad. Hammers, Claws and Fist are another story of course.

There's a place for granularity between sword, axe and maul but I think its best reserved for specialist games like Kill Team.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

Fully agreed, I like modeling axes and swords and thus prefer they have the same profile when my squad rams into another squad. Hammers, Claws and Fist are another story of course.

There's a place for granularity between sword, axe and maul but I think its best reserved for specialist games like Kill Team.

With their new model of having different offensive profiles for the same weapon on different datasheets, they can theoretically decide this on a per-case basis, i.e. for e.g. Wolf Guard or Deathwatch they can have the weapons make a difference, while it does not matter for a rabble of cultists or other chaff like that. It's not the optimal solution for memorization, but it exists. No clue if they'll use it though, at least not yet.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

Fully agreed, I like modeling axes and swords and thus prefer they have the same profile when my squad rams into another squad. Hammers, Claws and Fist are another story of course.

There's a place for granularity between sword, axe and maul but I think its best reserved for specialist games like Kill Team.

With their new model of having different offensive profiles for the same weapon on different datasheets, they can theoretically decide this on a per-case basis, i.e. for e.g. Wolf Guard or Deathwatch they can have the weapons make a difference, while it does not matter for a rabble of cultists or other chaff like that. It's not the optimal solution for memorization, but it exists. No clue if they'll use it though, at least not yet.

I remember they did that in 5th edition. The "wolf claws" were supposedly slightly more curved and therefor SW could chose to reroll either to-hit or to-wound (as the rules at the time only allowed reroll for to wound with regular lightning claws). As I remember, you never chose to reroll to-hit though, so I guess it hardly made a diference.