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 whembly wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Voss wrote:
Keywords : Monster?

Do the other Primmies have that?


Nothing quite like rules with a 2 month lifespan.

Still a "Beast" for 320 pts.

He's not quite as tough as Abbadon, who's wound locked. But with this "forestwalk" ability that is specifically NOT a "deepstrike", he can show up anywhere on the table (9" away from enemy) on turn 1, who also has re-rolls for charges.

He'd absolutely nuke a unit or two on one charge (11 -5ap 4d or 22 -3ap 2d).

No type of reinforcements, without explicit exception, can arrive on the first turn in Matched Play/Grand Tournament missions.

There's only one mission that I'm aware of that prohibits reinforcements on turn one. (I can't recall that misson at the moment).

But, things like Drop pod assaults and Lion's Forrestwalk ability (barring that one mission) should work on turn 1.

It's Step 10 of starting a battle in the GT and Matched Play packs, it applies to every single mission therein. Drop Pod Assault has an explicit exemption to that rule (or rather, explicitly allows you to arrive in the first turn which overrules the general rule with it's own specific rule). Forestwalk does not.

The Lion’s defensive stats kind of suck to be honest. I’d much prefer the Emp Shield deny hit rolls of 1-3 hitting. No transhuman in him for Inner Circle as he is a Monster. He will have to be used carefully or will die very quickly.
No wound cap, no damage reduction. Just a 4+ invuln with 9 wounds. Yeah, good luck with that.

 Rihgu wrote:

Spoiler:

 whembly wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Voss wrote:
Keywords : Monster?

Do the other Primmies have that?


Nothing quite like rules with a 2 month lifespan.

Still a "Beast" for 320 pts.

He's not quite as tough as Abbadon, who's wound locked. But with this "forestwalk" ability that is specifically NOT a "deepstrike", he can show up anywhere on the table (9" away from enemy) on turn 1, who also has re-rolls for charges.

He'd absolutely nuke a unit or two on one charge (11 -5ap 4d or 22 -3ap 2d).

No type of reinforcements, without explicit exception, can arrive on the first turn in Matched Play/Grand Tournament missions.

There's only one mission that I'm aware of that prohibits reinforcements on turn one. (I can't recall that misson at the moment).

But, things like Drop pod assaults and Lion's Forrestwalk ability (barring that one mission) should work on turn 1.

It's Step 10 of starting a battle in the GT and Matched Play packs, it applies to every single mission therein. Drop Pod Assault has an explicit exemption to that rule (or rather, explicitly allows you to arrive in the first turn which overrules the general rule with it's own specific rule). Forestwalk does not.

I see what you mean by Drop Pod Assault's exemption.

Thanks for correcting me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:
The Lion’s defensive stats kind of suck to be honest. I’d much prefer the Emp Shield deny hit rolls of 1-3 hitting. No transhuman in him for Inner Circle as he is a Monster. He will have to be used carefully or will die very quickly.
No wound cap, no damage reduction. Just a 4+ invuln with 9 wounds. Yeah, good luck with that.

I'm not sure his defensive stats suck.

He's 2+/4++ while T6. Don't discount that.

However, he's almost always going to be using Forrestwalk so that he's not shot off the table on turn one if he can't be hidden.

Good thing he moves 8" because, as a monster, he can't walk through ruins, so placement is vitally important.

In my mind, he's a mindfeth kind of a unit. You don't want to expose your backline to him, as folks often does by moving mid table-ish to grab objects. He can come from behind and wipe out opponent's scoring/obj units. (I used to do that with just one demon prince, and El'Lion is way more potent). So, he may psych out the opponent to hold back in deployment zone to protect the flanks.

Any semi decent close combat character will kill him outright if it gets the charge. T6 4+invuln and 9 wounds just won’t get it done.
He’s supposed to be a match for Angron. There is zero chance he holds up to Angron, zero.
He needs to have either transhuman on hits or wounds to have a chance. You’re basically going to surround him with terminators as he marches to try and find someone to punch.

 bullyboy wrote:
Any semi decent close combat character will kill him outright if it gets the charge. T6 4+invuln and 9 wounds just won’t get it done.
He’s supposed to be a match for Angron. There is zero chance he holds up to Angron, zero.
He needs to have either transhuman on hits or wounds to have a chance. You’re basically going to surround him with terminators as he marches to try and find someone to punch.

He does fight first tho, so he'll get his whacks in.

Why do you think he can't hold up to Angron? Lion fights first, would have 11 attacks at str 10 at 4 dmg a pop needing 3s to wound. Whereas Angry Ron needs to make 4++ inv saves having 18 wounds. (that presumes Angry Ron wasn't wounded during shooting/psyhic phase).

Abbadon can beat him simply due to his woundlock ability, and I'd imagine other woundlock opponents as well (Nightbringer? Bloodthirster?).

Outside of that? If you play sloppily, like get caught out in the open, yeah he can go down.

Look guys, we all know how good Abbadon is...right? The Lion is almost at parity to Abbadon. He's like Abbadon-lite with a little a bit more consistent damage output imo.

Ya honestly allowing him to deepstrike feels like a cheap way to make sure he sees action. His defense stats suck.

But the models is amazing and that's what's most important.

Lion's 9th edition stats are pretty immaterial considering that a new edition is right around the corner.

His stats will not change mutch, it will only be split up

Boosykes wrote:
Ya honestly allowing him to deepstrike feels like a cheap way to make sure he sees action. His defense stats suck.

But the models is amazing and that's what's most important.

That's important for sure.

What's also important is you're using these rules for like 2 months. Most people won't even have him painted before his stats get totally redone.

 whembly wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Any semi decent close combat character will kill him outright if it gets the charge. T6 4+invuln and 9 wounds just won’t get it done.
He’s supposed to be a match for Angron. There is zero chance he holds up to Angron, zero.
He needs to have either transhuman on hits or wounds to have a chance. You’re basically going to surround him with terminators as he marches to try and find someone to punch.

He does fight first tho, so he'll get his whacks in.

Why do you think he can't hold up to Angron? Lion fights first, would have 11 attacks at str 10 at 4 dmg a pop needing 3s to wound. Whereas Angry Ron needs to make 4++ inv saves having 18 wounds. (that presumes Angry Ron wasn't wounded during shooting/psyhic phase).

Abbadon can beat him simply due to his woundlock ability, and I'd imagine other woundlock opponents as well (Nightbringer? Bloodthirster?).

Outside of that? If you play sloppily, like get caught out in the open, yeah he can go down.

Look guys, we all know how good Abbadon is...right? The Lion is almost at parity to Abbadon. He's like Abbadon-lite with a little a bit more consistent damage output imo.

Running the numbers quickly, assuming Lion charges it looks like he would cause 14 damage to Angron, leaving Angron with 4 wounds when he hits back and would be able to kill the Lion even when reduced to 8 attacks.

Which is why nothing fights in a vacuum.

Get some ranged wounds off Angron, then let The Lion go play. Because with his stats, it doesn’t sound like much else would be a particularly deadly threat against The Lion, whilst he seems quite capable of lawnmowering most infantry in short order.

To me it always seemed that the daemon primarchs should be far more powerful than the loyalist ones. They're primarchs empowered by chaos and swollen several times the normal size. Of course they would be more powerful!

 Crimson wrote:
To me it always seemed that the daemon primarchs should be far more powerful than the loyalist ones. They're primarchs empowered by chaos and swollen several times the normal size. Of course they would be more powerful!

Inb4 someone says becoming a demon was actually a side grade or down grade for them.

Real talk though; this is why primarchs and the like should never have hit the table top. These are champions that’s supposed to be able to defeat armies on their own, fight for days (or weeks) straight, and kick so much ass that it’s felt on an intergalactic scale. Then they show up on the tabletop and all it takes is 40 nooks with plasma guns firing a single volley to put them in the dirt.

How was the Horus Heresy a big deal if all it took was a small detachment of guard can put down a rampaging primarch, or a couple of CSM squads rip and tear the loyalists one to shreds? There must have bee no more than 300 guardsmen, and maybe 100 marines, split amongst both sides for the full war.

Yes.

Because everyone knows the Primarchs fought completely alone. And certainly not at the head of colossal armies.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
To me it always seemed that the daemon primarchs should be far more powerful than the loyalist ones. They're primarchs empowered by chaos and swollen several times the normal size. Of course they would be more powerful!

Inb4 someone says becoming a demon was actually a side grade or down grade for them.

Real talk though; this is why primarchs and the like should never have hit the table top. These are champions that’s supposed to be able to defeat armies on their own, fight for days (or weeks) straight, and kick so much ass that it’s felt on an intergalactic scale. Then they show up on the tabletop and all it takes is 40 nooks with plasma guns firing a single volley to put them in the dirt.

How was the Horus Heresy a big deal if all it took was a small detachment of guard can put down a rampaging primarch, or a couple of CSM squads rip and tear the loyalists one to shreds? There must have bee no more than 300 guardsmen, and maybe 100 marines, split amongst both sides for the full war.

Yeah. While I am very happy with the meta plot progressing, there are some problems with the primarchs om the tabletop. Oh well.

Rules representation isn't an issue specifically with primarchs. Even basic space marines are shown to be much more powerful in the background. But balancing game rules around 'movie space marines' isn't as practical.

Jonson's rules are fine, it's just that they're not ridiculously OP so people complain they're bad.

The Jonson seems a bit flaccid.
While the strokes of his blade seem suitibly engorged, He has no staying power.


However he looks amazing. And that does make up for a lot.

 whembly wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Any semi decent close combat character will kill him outright if it gets the charge. T6 4+invuln and 9 wounds just won’t get it done.
He’s supposed to be a match for Angron. There is zero chance he holds up to Angron, zero.
He needs to have either transhuman on hits or wounds to have a chance. You’re basically going to surround him with terminators as he marches to try and find someone to punch.

He does fight first tho, so he'll get his whacks in.

Why do you think he can't hold up to Angron? Lion fights first, would have 11 attacks at str 10 at 4 dmg a pop needing 3s to wound. Whereas Angry Ron needs to make 4++ inv saves having 18 wounds. (that presumes Angry Ron wasn't wounded during shooting/psyhic phase).

Abbadon can beat him simply due to his woundlock ability, and I'd imagine other woundlock opponents as well (Nightbringer? Bloodthirster?).

Outside of that? If you play sloppily, like get caught out in the open, yeah he can go down.

Look guys, we all know how good Abbadon is...right? The Lion is almost at parity to Abbadon. He's like Abbadon-lite with a little a bit more consistent damage output imo.

The only way he fights first is if you deepstrike and make that 9” charge (I guess you can add the chaplain for a 7”). Otherwise, Angron with a 16” move and fly will charge and fights first means nothing if you are charged (unless the first thing doesn’t kill you).

I’m not sour, he’s awesome to look at and play, but I expected greater defensive capabilities. He really has nothing there.

 bullyboy wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Any semi decent close combat character will kill him outright if it gets the charge. T6 4+invuln and 9 wounds just won’t get it done.
He’s supposed to be a match for Angron. There is zero chance he holds up to Angron, zero.
He needs to have either transhuman on hits or wounds to have a chance. You’re basically going to surround him with terminators as he marches to try and find someone to punch.

He does fight first tho, so he'll get his whacks in.

Why do you think he can't hold up to Angron? Lion fights first, would have 11 attacks at str 10 at 4 dmg a pop needing 3s to wound. Whereas Angry Ron needs to make 4++ inv saves having 18 wounds. (that presumes Angry Ron wasn't wounded during shooting/psyhic phase).

Abbadon can beat him simply due to his woundlock ability, and I'd imagine other woundlock opponents as well (Nightbringer? Bloodthirster?).

Outside of that? If you play sloppily, like get caught out in the open, yeah he can go down.

Look guys, we all know how good Abbadon is...right? The Lion is almost at parity to Abbadon. He's like Abbadon-lite with a little a bit more consistent damage output imo.

The only way he fights first is if you deepstrike and make that 9” charge (I guess you can add the chaplain for a 7”). Otherwise, Angron with a 16” move and fly will charge and fights first means nothing if you are charged (unless the first thing doesn’t kill you).

I’m not sour, he’s awesome to look at and play, but I expected greater defensive capabilities. He really has nothing there.

Defending player gets to pick first unit to fight in each step of fighting.

So if Angron charges and gets Fights First from doing so, in Fights First step, defending player will pick Lionel first and fight Angron before Angron can fight.

edit: wording for clarity.

Actually, that is incorrect. The defender only picks first during the normal combat sense. The attacker picks first during the Fight First and Fight Last sequences. Check the FAQ for details.

Please don't complain that the fluff doesn't match the game. They're fundamentally incompatible and if you want them to match you have to gimp one or the other, ie make the fluff weaker or make the game unplayable. Alternatively you can accept it for what it is, understand why, and cease complaints.

 Theophony wrote:


Well you know thats not cannon when chaos has a thunderhammer and stormshield

In 2nd Ed, Red Corsairs could take options and units from Codex: Ultramarines because they were more recent converts to Chaos.

JWBS wrote:
Please don't complain that the fluff doesn't match the game. They're fundamentally incompatible and if you want them to match you have to gimp one or the other, ie make the fluff weaker or make the game unplayable. Alternatively you can accept it for what it is, understand why, and cease complaints.

Please don't ask others not to complain, it is the most rediculas thing in the world. Like kings telling peasants not to complain becuse they rule by Devine dictate. Embarrassing.

People complain when they don't like somthing as it should be. It's how we come up with new ways of thinking and fix problems.

No one is saying he should match the fluff. If they where they would want him to solo armys. I haven't seen anyone ask for that, what I have seen is people saying the lions defense is way too low especially when he is wielding the emperor's sheild and they are right. If his point need to go up that's fine. He should have better defense than he dose. Maybe 10th will fix that but he that dosent take away from the fact that in 9th the lions defense is too low.

 alextroy wrote:
Actually, that is incorrect. The defender only picks first during the normal combat sense. The attacker picks first during the Fight First and Fight Last sequences. Check the FAQ for details.

I just looked at the FAQ for the BRB, and I could not find anything telling about what happens when two Fight Firsts fight each other (such as someone charging The Lion). As far as I can tell, it's the defender's pick for each of the three sequences, but if you can point me to a specific place that I'm somehow missing it would be very helpful to everyone.

My mistake. It isn't in the FAQ, it is in the Rare Rules section of the BRB on Page 361, first two paragraphs of Always Fight First/Last. The FAQ clarifies that a unit that charges is considered to be under the effects of a rule that says it Always Fights First.

Sooooo much better than just figuring out something like Initiative. /s

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Sooooo much better than just figuring out something like Initiative. /s

Binary non-scalable rules are so much better than granular comparative rules.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Sooooo much better than just figuring out something like Initiative. /s

Binary non-scalable rules are so much better than granular comparative rules.

Yes, it's great fun to know who will get to strike first in combat under any circumstance during the select army stage of the game.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Sooooo much better than just figuring out something like Initiative. /s

Binary non-scalable rules are so much better than granular comparative rules.

Yes, it's great fun to know who will get to strike first in combat under any circumstance during the select army stage of the game.

Yup. Just like knowing who has the best armour save. Or higher strength. Or better Weapon Skill.. .

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Sooooo much better than just figuring out something like Initiative. /s

Initiative was fething stupid. However, the binary fights first/last and then CHOOSING who to attack with is just as bad.