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 bullyboy wrote:
I kinda feel sorry for blood angel players tbh. Dante got leaked early and then GW had to do a “oops, here you go article “. Then nothing. Then he gets official release with the Lion and his rules are dropped one day after the Lions. Poor guy probably deserved better.
At least you’ll have better luck getting him compared to Farsight

And the Lion itself got kind of overshadowed by 10th

 Mr_Rose wrote:
It’s exactly the same as all the other beam weapons in the Tau and Squat codexes.

I hate those as well

Dante's pistol is even more situational / nonsensical due to its very short range, practically nothing would have been lost in just making it a normal pistol with another shot or whatever.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Initiative was fething stupid.

Why?

You never played orks did you?

He obviously never played Necrons or any units that didn't have Frag Grenades or Daemons, etc. either.
Initiative made it entirely binary what was good because you NEEDED AP2 at higher Initiative or just be too tanky so you can swing anything at I1. It's dumb. The hit penalties for big power weapons was a good call.

Yup. Elite Necron or Ork units, something that was supposed to be scariest melee combatants around, fighting last, even after IG conscripts, was just comically stupid. Then you had initiative modifiers, something rare and priced as if it was valuable, but it didn't matter in 90% of cases (oh no, my Necrons/Orks go from I2 to I3! still fighting last, big whoopeedoo! Eldar are now I7! gazooks, still first!) but in 10% of cases, say SM vs SM, it became the most important modifier in the game that was massively underpriced. Say, Salamanders had -1 to I making them trash at fighting all other SM, something that was in no way reflected in their points. EC had +1, making them literal God Emperors of SM combat, both examples peeing all over established SM fluff. Brilliant rule writing!

Then you had monstrous creatures that always got AP2 with no other justification than 'frak you', even tiny models like Lictor that had no business having buzzsaws for their literally human sized hands, countering almost every single melee anti-monster weapon in the game due to inherent I1 - making the MCs hard counters to their supposed counter. GW tried to fix this gak by giving monsters low I, but that didn't work - because even I2 still beat I1 of fists and such, while at the same time being vulnerable to just being hacked apart by chaff with knives. Because it somehow makes any sense Cue Carnifexes and such being really bad units due to their low I for multiple editions, because no amount of bandaids glued on bandaids ever fixed completely broken base underneath it.

And the funniest part is, people here defending this gak spent pages after pages after pages complaining about free volkite pistol on characters in most recent update, because it really matters if character can fire his single shot with bolt pistol at S4 or volkite at S5 and if it is worth 0.04 pts or if we can round it to 0 and stop mucking about, but whole armies being butchered or butchering every single time they fight based on completely arbitrary and unfluffy stat that is potentially worth hundreds of points in either direction but not reflected in its cost in any way and making the game outright broken if your codex can exploit it is, uh, tiny unimportant detail, eh?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And, on that subject, why should units be fighting at the same time? Gretchin should be fighting at the same time as Harlequins? Custodes should be no faster in combat than Cultists?

Yes. Because unit X being unable to do anything (and even worse, it not being reflected in points) in arbitrary conditions is just feelsbad garbage rule writing. Especially if that was supposedly elite combatant. If unit is supposed to be durable in fight, it should have high T. Or Sv. Or ++. Or wounds. Or FNP. Or -1 to hit. Whatever the fluff justification of that durability is. Or, if we really, really needs to just gak on opposed unit, in some very rare cases, it should be reflected in said unit points cost - and then, we can just make note in its rules. Something like 'these dudes here are so cool they always fight first'. Or just 'fight first' for short

 GiToRaZor wrote:
But lets be honest though, its not going to happen. GW had 12+ years to use initative 1-10 and ended up using the values 1,2,3,4,5,6 and 10. I at least can not remember something that had initiative 7,8,9 and 5,6, were already only sparesly used.

Assassins had 8, actually. Which funnily enough reminds me of one time a decade ago my Vindicare assassin was charged by a huge mob of nobz - managing to kill two closest ones with his fists due to their bad I, took just enough wounds to stay alive because now not enough models were in range to strike - and since ork player technically lost fight, he rolled morale. One I check to see if I 'catch' him I literally couldn't lose, and a whole 400 pts ork mob went poof to a single unarmed dude. Look on his face was literally priceless

Which part of the above strikes any of you as fluffy/good/fun rule design?

 Mr_Rose wrote:
It’s exactly the same as all the other beam weapons in the Tau and Squat codexes.

Sure. But the beam effects have been needlessly tedious since that dumb Space Woof psychic power got yanked out of someone's backside editions ago.

Collateral damage abstraction acting on positioning abstractions (ie, why tanks can fire from corners of the model and facings don't exist) in a literal fashion is a terrible idea. Its doubly stupid since they took out blast templates, which also act on game positioning in a way that's at odds with the current rules.

 Irbis wrote:

Assassins had 8, actually. Which funnily enough reminds me of one time a decade ago my Vindicare assassin was charged by a huge mob of nobz - managing to kill two closest ones with his fists due to their bad I, took just enough wounds to stay alive because now not enough models were in range to strike - and since ork player technically lost fight, he rolled morale. One I check to see if I 'catch' him I literally couldn't lose, and a whole 400 pts ork mob went poof to a single unarmed dude. Look on his face was literally priceless

Which part of the above strikes any of you as fluffy/good/fun rule design?

Well it certainly made for a lasting memory! Much cinematic, such epic, wow!

Stuff like this is the reason i get a feeling of dread every time their marketing people talk about making the game 'cinematic'. Usually it means 'swingy bulls***t'

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Yup. Just like knowing who has the best armour save. Or higher strength. Or better Weapon Skill.. .

What is the value of a WS8 unit that fights WS5 all the time? What's the value of that same unit when fighting WS4?

Boyz were almost literally just fodder under initiative. You needed enough of them to protect the Klaw until it could swing. It's not very interesting when only one model out of 30 does anything of consequence.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
It’s exactly the same as all the other beam weapons in the Tau and Squat codexes.

Squat beams have enough range and rate of fire to be useful, an individual beam pistol may as well just be pistol 2

 bullyboy wrote:
I kinda feel sorry for blood angel players tbh. Dante got leaked early and then GW had to do a “oops, here you go article “. Then nothing. Then he gets official release with the Lion and his rules are dropped one day after the Lions. Poor guy probably deserved better.
At least you’ll have better luck getting him compared to Farsight

"Space marine characters don't get enough attention" sure is a take I didn't expect to see posted here

Voss wrote:
But the beam effects have been needlessly tedious since that dumb Space Woof psychic power got yanked out of someone's backside editions ago.

Salamanders had the first "beam" power in Codex: Armageddon, which then got spread to other Chapters in various names through the year. Which funny enough, also ties into the Initiative argument, because they were also given Initiative 3 in that list because "gravity".

I love how all these Marine characters get new datasheets while Farsight, who very visibly and as a plot point in the book, now has the Talisman of Arthas Moloch integrated into his new custom suit gets stuck with his old rules.

Orkz were my first 40k army, when I started in 5th and holy ballz did I hate I2 and sweeping advances.

 Matrindur wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I kinda feel sorry for blood angel players tbh. Dante got leaked early and then GW had to do a “oops, here you go article “. Then nothing. Then he gets official release with the Lion and his rules are dropped one day after the Lions. Poor guy probably deserved better.
At least you’ll have better luck getting him compared to Farsight

And the Lion itself got kind of overshadowed by 10th

I wouldn’t say that necessarily. For many, the Lion reveal was a far bigger deal than the 10th edition “reveal”.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Voss wrote:
But the beam effects have been needlessly tedious since that dumb Space Woof psychic power got yanked out of someone's backside editions ago.

Salamanders had the first "beam" power in Codex: Armageddon, which then got spread to other Chapters in various names through the year. Which funny enough, also ties into the Initiative argument, because they were also given Initiative 3 in that list because "gravity".

I love how all these Marine characters get new datasheets while Farsight, who very visibly and as a plot point in the book, now has the Talisman of Arthas Moloch integrated into his new custom suit gets stuck with his old rules.

Snikrot got new rules too...that added a pistol to him.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Orkz were my first 40k army, when I started in 5th and holy ballz did I hate I2 and sweeping advances.

I am curious, is it currently any better? My personal experience is that Ork mobs tend to be overpriced and even if they make it across the table, there will be a unit that fires at them and then charges them. Hence the only time a mob might make a charge is Tellyporta + Waagh + good luck on the charge roll. Hence most Ork lists don't feature any Boys anymore.

Character article today

So now, rather than handing out re-rolls to anyone in earshot, your heroes now join a single squad and act as one cohesive unit. It’s an elegant system that helps keep over-buffed super-units at bay.

Boo! Hiss!

It does seem to be better done than expected though:


We now know what "Lethal Hits" does:

His Tactical Precision ability grants his subordinates Lethal Hits, a core ability that makes Critical Hits – the new term for an unmodified 6 on a Hit roll – automatically wound their target.

No moving between units and generally only 1 character per unit should keep things easier to balance. Auto-wounds is pretty powerful as a unit-wide ability, but I like that they're restricting which units you can buff with each character. Given the generally unrestricted army building rules that might be a good way to push armies towards still retaining some sort of cohesion and theme.

I did get a bit of a chuckle from their blurb about how this way of doing things is much more elegant than before. At this stage GW are just stripping rules out in one edition to declare their genius when they add them back in two editions later.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Character article today

So now, rather than handing out re-rolls to anyone in earshot, your heroes now join a single squad and act as one cohesive unit. It’s an elegant system that helps keep over-buffed super-units at bay.

Boo! Hiss!

It does seem to be better done than expected though:


We now know what "Lethal Hits" does:

His Tactical Precision ability grants his subordinates Lethal Hits, a core ability that makes Critical Hits – the new term for an unmodified 6 on a Hit roll – automatically wound their target.

Aha, so my guess that Squad-Leaders are represented by separate Datasheets seems to have been right.

His Tactical Precision ability grants his subordinates Lethal Hits, a core ability that makes Critical Hits – the new term for an unmodified 6 on a Hit roll – automatically wound their target.

Shame that they seem to stick to multi-level stacking of USRs that give other USRs though, that was not really necessary. Also they still write in their weirdly stilted rules-lawyery way, but whatever, it's readable even if it's too long.

Looks like two new units incoming, at least.

Hmm. Ok so for the good...limits to the number of leaders added to a unit. And limits to the units they can join.

The bad? Giving Lethal Hits to Hellblasters. Need to do the math...

I’m game for this. At least Warlocks will be able to join Guardians again.

But as ever, the proof will be in the playing.

Tsagualsa wrote:

Shame that they seem to stick to multi-level stacking of USRs that give other USRs though, that was not really necessary. Also they still write in their weirdly stilted rules-lawyery way, but whatever, it's readable even if it's too long.

Critical Hits are not a USR - just a game mechanic that USRs interact with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tsagualsa wrote:
Aha, so my guess that Squad-Leaders are represented by separate Datasheets seems to have been right.

Sergeants are not the same as Lieutenants.

Only potential issue with the unit rules now is that you have to pick beforehand (I think you always did this) but you can't leave (you did not have that) so that would mean when (not if) your unit with a character gets wiped except for that character, their buff is useless as they can't join a different unit.

The other concern is a return to 7th edition deathstars, but hopefully GW has learned from that debacle and will take steps to avoid that.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Looks like two new units incoming, at least.

There's supposedly the Incinerators (flamer Primaris) and some sort of Veteran unit in the launch box, which would fit the bill.

That would leave the question of what the Phobos Lieutenant in the launch box is supposed to be attached to open though.

Wayniac wrote:
Only potential issue with the unit rules now is that you have to pick beforehand (I think you always did this) but you can't leave (you did not have that) so that would mean when (not if) your unit with a character gets wiped except for that character, their buff is useless as they can't join a different unit.

The other concern is a return to 7th edition deathstars, but hopefully GW has learned from that debacle and will take steps to avoid that.

Only one Senior and one Junior character per unit, and characters only being able to join specified units, should keep the Deathstars controlled.

(Plus Oath of Moment makes building a super-unit a dangerous proposition against half the field.)

 Asmodai wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Looks like two new units incoming, at least.

There's supposedly the Incinerators (flamer Primaris) and some sort of Veteran unit in the launch box, which would fit the bill.

That would leave the question of what the Phobos Lieutenant in the launch box is supposed to be attached to open though.

From the minimal fluff they gave the Phobos Lt. so far he's not supposed to be attached to anything, he's some sort of behind-the-lines lone wolf operator, so maybe he'll get some sort of infiltrate ability and work like Sly Marbo or a Lictor.

 GiToRaZor wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Orkz were my first 40k army, when I started in 5th and holy ballz did I hate I2 and sweeping advances.

I am curious, is it currently any better? My personal experience is that Ork mobs tend to be overpriced and even if they make it across the table, there will be a unit that fires at them and then charges them. Hence the only time a mob might make a charge is Tellyporta + Waagh + good luck on the charge roll. Hence most Ork lists don't feature any Boys anymore.

Ork boyz as a unit are specifically currently not great, though that has more to do with GW making rules for horde units garbage in 9th and neutering all the different morale mitigation rules Orks had in 8th. In terms of actual combat, it's been way better for us than it has been in 7th for a while, since we actually get to hit first with things when we charge like Trukkboy Mega Nobz, Kill Rigs, Stormboyz and Kommandos, so our speed in getting into combat isn't rendered moot from getting mullered first by high initiative enemies. It also helps that even if we get charged, with the counter offensive strat that we can force our opponent to not overcommit or to suffer some kind of casualties rather than before where we had to bank on enough models surviving to actually do something against an opponent (usually just the Nob with PK).

 Asmodai wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Looks like two new units incoming, at least.

There's supposedly the Incinerators (flamer Primaris) and some sort of Veteran unit in the launch box, which would fit the bill.

That would leave the question of what the Phobos Lieutenant in the launch box is supposed to be attached to open though.

Phobos guy will be for Reivers, Infiltrators, Incursors and perhaps Eliminators. The basic rules you get in the launch box might allow him to be attached to Intercessors or the like, but I would expect the Index rules to disallow that.

Ok so if all things are at the same ratio as they are now a squad of Hellblasters is 300 and a LT is 65.

Normally we get --

20 * .666 * .833 = 11.1 wounding hits ( within 15" ) on T4

Now it becomes --

20 * .167 = 3.34
20 * .5 * .833 = 8.33

A total of 11.7 wounding hits

It's almost not worth if if you intend to shoot T4 with Plasma. If you instead shoot T9 then it becomes 2.95 vs 6.7.

Honestly not as bad as I thought especially if the AP goes down. Also considering the LT won't stave off Gets Hot ( will we get armor saves? ) it means you need to put them into the OoM target unless a Captain gets you reroll 1s, but that's more cost on a fragile unit.

Overall I like this design a lot more. "Upgrading" your units with abilities sounds great to me. I imagine Ahriman will be a Lone Operative, which is great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wayniac wrote:
The other concern is a return to 7th edition deathstars, but hopefully GW has learned from that debacle and will take steps to avoid that.

Thankfully limited.

Seems like a simple enough system, but of course we had to throw the baby out with the bathwater and just pretty much remove auras.

I guess uttering the words "middle ground" at GW is a sackable offence...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m game for this. At least Warlocks will be able to join Guardians again.

Oh yeah! That I like.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Looks like two new units incoming, at least.

The two non-Phobos Primaris units from the trailer: The Veteran Intercessors (or whatever they end up being called) and the Flamey Dudes.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Seems like a simple enough system, but of course we had to throw the baby out with the bathwater and just pretty much remove auras.

It does make pricing units easier since where the buffs go won't be as nebulous.

Way I read it, auras will still exist, but won’t be as widespread.

We’re yet to see Captain level heroes. I see no reason they can’t join a squad and still offer a buff bubble to nearby units?

Auras will probably be reserved for Primarchs, Chapter Masters, Hive Tyrants etc. powerful and rare units.

So some characters join units to get protection, while others can't be targeted unless you're within 12", and still others need to be near friendlies to get that 12" shield.

And auras are still around, but limited to the really significant characters rather than every middle-level manager.

I like it so far. Much more straightforward than Look Out Sir ever was.