Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Marines now hit on a 2+ when stationary with 2 shot AP-1 basic weapons. Kind of silly but ok, we haven't seen what the other factions can do.

Apparently rapid fire is just gone, they haven't shown but did show Assault and Heavy, so I'm assuming that RF is just gone from the game and former RF weapons will have the Assault and Heavy traits.

No, rapid fire still exists. I think you just missed it from previous articles. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/04/just-how-tough-are-terminators-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000/

Ah yes, so I did. It was in the Terminator article.
Kind of weird that they put it there instead of the weapon article, but ok.
So rapid fire is just double shots at half-range. Fair enough.

For Storm Bolters, yes. Technically, You add the X in "Rapid Fire X", which means it may not always be double.

Slipspace wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Marines now hit on a 2+ when stationary with 2 shot AP-1 basic weapons. Kind of silly but ok, we haven't seen what the other factions can do.

Apparently rapid fire is just gone, they haven't shown but did show Assault and Heavy, so I'm assuming that RF is just gone from the game and former RF weapons will have the Assault and Heavy traits.

Which unless they give "pure" assault and heavy weapons something extra, former RF weapons are generally going to be better than their pure assault / heavy counter parts, as they get both of those rules with no drawbacks.

Rapid Fire still exists. I suspect the 2-shot Bolt Rifles are to emulate the current Bolter Drill rules, that gives SM 2 shots with RF bolters most of the time. It's a pretty good solution IMO.

It's just their best go at merging Assault 3, RF, and Heavy into one profile.

This helps balance First Born with Primaris. Primaris clearly have the better base gun, but First Born will have specials / heavies to throw in.

Rapid Fire is +X shots in half range, which basically eats the Dakka rule. Geneva is probably right for 3A Rapid Fire 2 Assault shootas.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


It's just their best go at merging Assault 3, RF, and Heavy into one profile.

Which doesn't really work, because there was more to a Stalker than being Heavy.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


It's just their best go at merging Assault 3, RF, and Heavy into one profile.

Which doesn't really work, because there was more to a Stalker than being Heavy.

For sure, but I think this is a great representation of tactical flexibility and getting 2 BS2 shots with AP1 seems quite decent in this system.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Which doesn't really work, because there was more to a Stalker than being Heavy.

See what happens when you try to Jervis things? You get something that isn't really any of what came before, and what's left in the middle kind leaves you wanting.

 Platuan4th wrote:

For Storm Bolters, yes. Technically, You add the X in "Rapid Fire X", which means it may not always be double.

Which is just common-sense futureproofing, who knows what crazy guns they want to model in the future, if you do universal rules that you plan to use for the whole edition it makes sense to key as much flexibility as possible into them, even if you end up never using it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Which doesn't really work, because there was more to a Stalker than being Heavy.

See what happens when you try to Jervis things? You get something that isn't really any of what came before, and what's left in the middle kind leaves you wanting.

Come on now. It's a bit much to complain about bolter proliferation and then turn around and fret that you no longer have the same previous function.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Marines now hit on a 2+ when stationary with 2 shot AP-1 basic weapons. Kind of silly but ok, we haven't seen what the other factions can do.

Apparently rapid fire is just gone, they haven't shown but did show Assault and Heavy, so I'm assuming that RF is just gone from the game and former RF weapons will have the Assault and Heavy traits.

Which unless they give "pure" assault and heavy weapons something extra, former RF weapons are generally going to be better than their pure assault / heavy counter parts, as they get both of those rules with no drawbacks.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/04/just-how-tough-are-terminators-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000/

Fknnily enough they showed rapid fire first. 10 days ago. Keep up


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Marines now hit on a 2+ when stationary with 2 shot AP-1 basic weapons. Kind of silly but ok, we haven't seen what the other factions can do.

Apparently rapid fire is just gone, they haven't shown but did show Assault and Heavy, so I'm assuming that RF is just gone from the game and former RF weapons will have the Assault and Heavy traits.

No, rapid fire still exists. I think you just missed it from previous articles. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/04/just-how-tough-are-terminators-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000/

Ah yes, so I did. It was in the Terminator article.
Kind of weird that they put it there instead of the weapon article, but ok.
So rapid fire is just double shots at half-range. Fair enough.

Actually no. Add specific amount. Could be 3 shot 2 at half range, 2 shot 4 at short range etc.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


It's just their best go at merging Assault 3, RF, and Heavy into one profile.

Which doesn't really work, because there was more to a Stalker than being Heavy.

Could be that they too away the Dam 2 Stalker bolter so they can give it to the Heavy Bolt rifle instead, as say 30" S5 Ap -1 Dam 2

I wonder how some of the other weapon keywords will work. We know about Torrent and Blast. With Twin linked changing, I would love for Master Crafted X to become a keyword as say "on a Critical wound, increase the AP and Dam of the attack by x"

 Insularum wrote:
Hopefully all the other myriad bolter variants (carbines, marksmen, occulus etc) also get collapsed into just being a generic boltgun, with at most a unit level ability if they have an extra fancy targeter or something.

There's 4 units with 4 different Bolt Carbines. There might be two more options for SW+DA--but I think it's just the Space Wolves locked one for a normal Lieutenant/Wolf Guard Battle Leader?

Reivers get the 'standard' Bolt Carbine.
Infiltrators get the 'Marksman' Bolt Carbine.
Incursors (and the Shadowspear Lieutenant) get the 'Occulus' Bolt Carbine.
Phobos Captains and Eliminator Sergeants get the "Instigator" Bolt Carbine.


A bit weird to get up in arms about the Carbine, specifically, I think. But whatever.

I'd personally rather keep different Bolt Carbines, and see meaningful differences made to them. The Instigator Bolt Carbine had a cool trait initially for the Eliminator Sergeant, but they yanked it out same time as they yanked out the Arc Mine as a deployable item.

It's not like the Bolt Rifle situation, where we had Stalker/Auto/Vanilla all on a single unit or the Heavy Bolt Rifle/Executor/Hellstorm all on a single unit as well.

Assault cannon actually looks worth considering for probably the first time since 2nd edition which is cool, hopefully the heavy flamer also gets a simple but appropriate ability from torrent other than just auto hits.

I'm hoping Sustained Hits/Wounds is a bit more widespread than they're making it out to be.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So...assault type weapons no longer inflict a -1 hit penalty when you advance it seems.
This is great for Orks.

Most Ork weapons are Dakka now, not Assault.

Making a shoota "attacks 2, rapid fire 1, assault" could be a thing now.

"Dakka" could remain as a thing, just letting Orks treat a weapon as always getting the full effect of whatever type it has.

I'm 99% sure Dakka goes away. Why? Because they're not going to have a USR for a specific race. Orks will work within the same stuff as other weapons.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


It's just their best go at merging Assault 3, RF, and Heavy into one profile.

Which doesn't really work, because there was more to a Stalker than being Heavy.

Extra ap and damage doesn't allow much getting lethality down. Ap 1.5 doesn't make much sense

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm 99% sure Dakka goes away. Why? Because they're not going to have a USR for a specific race. Orks will work within the same stuff as other weapons.

Dakka is easily representative with the new way Rapid Fire works.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm 99% sure Dakka goes away. Why? Because they're not going to have a USR for a specific race. Orks will work within the same stuff as other weapons.

You know that armies can still have special rules independent of USRs, right?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm 99% sure Dakka goes away. Why? Because they're not going to have a USR for a specific race. Orks will work within the same stuff as other weapons.

Army specific rules were a thing for armies even with usr.

And in any case for dakka they need to come up with new bonus as old is same as rapid fire x in 10th

Dakka might go away or might not. If not benefit is different.

Tsagualsa wrote:

While I didn't expect to see it on the Shuriken Cannon, I'm still going to say "Called it!" re Ignores Cover, HBMC

What did you call it then? Ignore covers been around few editioes.

tneva82 wrote:
What did you call it then? Ignore covers been around few editioes.

When the Heavy Flamer profile was shown, HBMC was commenting about it being pointless to have Ignores Cover as its own thing distinct from Torrent - I pointed out it might appear on non-Flamer weapons, though I was initially thinking things like Mortars might get it. Still, the Shuriken Cannon shows what I was talking about, that's all.

 Dysartes wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
What did you call it then? Ignore covers been around few editioes.

When the Heavy Flamer profile was shown, HBMC was commenting about it being pointless to have Ignores Cover as its own thing distinct from Torrent - I pointed out it might appear on non-Flamer weapons, though I was initially thinking things like Mortars might get it. Still, the Shuriken Cannon shows what I was talking about, that's all.

Ah. Well that wasn't too hard. Flamers don't ignore cover in 8-9 as default and there are non-flamer weapons ignore in 8-9e.

So basically only it becoming usr was a change.

 Kanluwen wrote:

I'm hoping Sustained Hits/Wounds is a bit more widespread than they're making it out to be.

The sustained hits mechanic could work really well with blast weapons. Make the Blast X+ into "If the target unit size is more than the Attack value of this weapon, trigger the Sustained hits rule on the roll of a X+" Then they could cut back on base attacks for blast weapons but play with the values for both X+ and Sustained Fire X

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm 99% sure Dakka goes away. Why? Because they're not going to have a USR for a specific race. Orks will work within the same stuff as other weapons.

You know that armies can still have special rules independent of USRs, right?

Special rules, yes. Are they going to reprint Dakka on every single Ork detachment? I doubt it.

 Dysartes wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
What did you call it then? Ignore covers been around few editioes.

When the Heavy Flamer profile was shown, HBMC was commenting about it being pointless to have Ignores Cover as its own thing distinct from Torrent - I pointed out it might appear on non-Flamer weapons, though I was initially thinking things like Mortars might get it. Still, the Shuriken Cannon shows what I was talking about, that's all.

That was weird anyway, since torrent was a recurring rule across several editions, being able to project spray templates 12" (or 18"?) from the flame cannon (or whichever). It had no interaction with ignore cover, beyond 'you can do it from further away')
Not sure what torrent will do without templates, but the odds that it interacts with ignore cover were pretty low.

Voss wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:

It's odd that the Aggressor Powerfist keys off of BS while the Terminator ones used WS - unless that's just a typo.

I suspect typo.
I find it weirder that its 4+ when powerfists on terminators are 3+

And twin linked rerolling to-wound rather than rerolling to-hit is going to take a bit of mental revision.

Yup, why is it 4+ when if anything, Aggressors are beefier and more stable? And why A3? If we bring old, trash rules back, it should be +1A for two identical weapons, at least. Also, why Aggressor dual gun is nerfed into the ground (no pistol or assault, either) when Termies get to keep theirs? If GW writer was in any way consistent, storm/twin/combi bolters should be now Bolter, A1, rapid fire 1, twin linked. Also, cyclones kept 2A instead of going back to old A1 with TL (or even older not twin linked in most past editions) because frak you.

And what about say tank sponsons? Are Predator heavy bolters now singular, or that dual weapon won't be twin linked because reasons? Or hurricane bolters, are they now twin-twin linked?

Aggressors used to be walking, durable tanks outputting massive firepower in 8th, now with cuts to their shots to mere 1/4 of what they had and no compensation in durability after squat wound inflation (they should be at least T6 W4 now merely to keep parity with 8th edition ones) they strongly compete for the hardest nerfs in 40K history.

Ditto with intercessors, huge cuts to damage output and loss of versatility in battlefield roles (plus loss of range, which is the main frakking point of longer barrels!) just because some clowns can't differentiate between sniper rifle and light machine gun. Hey, GW, maybe you should roll multilasers and lascannons together too, who can keep track of these? Or eldar reapers and dragons, both have S8 weapon, how about we merge these together too? And why 20 battlesuit weapons, when you can't keep track of 3 on SM unit?

Then there is the fact twin linking now works directly against faction bonus, making it worthless as soon as you point TL weapon at marked target. Which will be a really common occurrence seeing how many dual weapons SM have on pretty much all platforms. A+ rule writing here.

Overall, some really trash, stupid changes - now having two power swords is massively better than two claws. Unless the above clown forget his idiocy for a moment and gave them huge bonus to compensate (which he probably did, seeing they aren't primaris weapons). Dual weapon units, like SoB Seraphim, now became utter gak - wooo, all of 1 bolt pistol shot!

Shurikens now ignore cover because tiny, light discs that shatter or are deflected on lightest obstacle now magically teleport or something (and D2, because few milligrams of crystal is far better at wounding than big bolts from heavy SM sniper rifle, even though these were D2 too before whatever clown nerfed them to D1 they are in 10th). I could understand if that was light cover or something, but teleporting through bunker walls is just comically dumb.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
So Melta maintains the AT edge, but barely -- unless it's in half range then it still dominates. This is melta rifle vs asscan, which probably isn't a great comparison. I'm guessing MM will still have 2 shots, which would make MM far better even if it's wounding on 5s/6s.

Yup. GW writers still can't into math (as also evidenced by AT still being d6 damage). And that's with ass cannon, pretty meh weapon. After they gloated Tau gak keeps getting even more broken this edition, I dread to think what Tau/Eldar/Tyranid weapons that were OP last edition will output now (especially when GW writer forgets wombo combo spreading crit range and they will output mortal wounds on 2+, which is virtually a given, or in case of Phil Kelly, his standard mode of buffing pet army)

 bullyboy wrote:
Also, better get use to melta only wounding vehicles on 5s now!! My guess is the lascannon will make a big comeback this edition.

And less than 50% of S of weapon chucking magic pebbles Tau have. Because heavy rifle vaporizing half of Terminator per shot is obviously worse at killing than making 5 mm sized holes in things - which somehow magically kills greater daemons, gods, and primarchs alike in a single shot denying them magic wards/divine powers/tech millenia more advanced than anything Tau have, because frak you, 20th century weapon is better than all these overrated anti-matter guns, solar disintegrators, black hole cannons and stuff throwing chunks of reality into warp others use

As for lascannon, after utter fail that was heavy primaris/admech laser weapons last edition, or melta still being d6 damage, I admire your optimism...

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
The sustained hits mechanic could work really well with blast weapons. Make the Blast X+ into "If the target unit size is more than the Attack value of this weapon, trigger the Sustained hits rule on the roll of a X+" Then they could cut back on base attacks for blast weapons but play with the values for both X+ and Sustained Fire X

That would make more sense if blast weapons weren't random shots. Rolling 1 shot and then getting Sustained doesn't do much. And it would make for nested USRs and we don't want to go there if we can avoid it.

Voss wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
What did you call it then? Ignore covers been around few editioes.

When the Heavy Flamer profile was shown, HBMC was commenting about it being pointless to have Ignores Cover as its own thing distinct from Torrent - I pointed out it might appear on non-Flamer weapons, though I was initially thinking things like Mortars might get it. Still, the Shuriken Cannon shows what I was talking about, that's all.

That was weird anyway, since torrent was a recurring rule across several editions, being able to project spray templates 12" (or 18"?) from the flame cannon (or whichever). It had no interaction with ignore cover, beyond 'you can do it from further away')
Not sure what torrent will do without templates, but the odds that it interacts with ignore cover were pretty low.

Possibly overwatch auto-hits/auto-hits in general

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

I'm hoping Sustained Hits/Wounds is a bit more widespread than they're making it out to be.

The sustained hits mechanic could work really well with blast weapons. Make the Blast X+ into "If the target unit size is more than the Attack value of this weapon, trigger the Sustained hits rule on the roll of a X+" Then they could cut back on base attacks for blast weapons but play with the values for both X+ and Sustained Fire X

I was thinking of it more for stuff like Heavy Stubbers or the Guard crew-served version of the Heavy Bolter and Autocannon.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
The sustained hits mechanic could work really well with blast weapons. Make the Blast X+ into "If the target unit size is more than the Attack value of this weapon, trigger the Sustained hits rule on the roll of a X+" Then they could cut back on base attacks for blast weapons but play with the values for both X+ and Sustained Fire X

That would make more sense if blast weapons weren't random shots. Rolling 1 shot and then getting Sustained doesn't do much. And it would make for nested USRs and we don't want to go there if we can avoid it.

I forgot we have already seen a blast weapon.

 Irbis wrote:
Yup. GW writers still can't into math (as also evidenced by AT still being d6 damage). And that's with ass cannon, pretty meh weapon. After they gloated Tau gak keeps getting even more broken this edition, I dread to think what Tau/Eldar/Tyranid weapons that were OP last edition will output now (especially when GW writer forgets wombo combo spreading crit range and they will output mortal wounds on 2+, which is virtually a given, or in case of Phil Kelly, his standard mode of buffing pet army)

Really jumping the gun, huh? ( ba dum tss - I'm here all week )

At S20 and assuming suitable AP4/5/6 with Devastating Wounds means it ignores invulnerable saves only on a 6 to wound, but still wounds a Rhino on a 2+. That's a nerf overall. It's entirely plausible that GW has other USRs that could improve the Railgun, but given that those changes come from Core Rules now and not the Codex it seems unlikely. If I were to guess it will get Heavy so that it will hit on a 3+ possible with a reroll still.

Melta is not a D6 weapon. It has advantages. The Lascannon will likely be S10/12 to give it an advantage for presumably having D6.

Not sure I agree with all gun profiles, but the keyword system looks pretty slick.