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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
It’s not just scale creep, but scope creep. Back in the day a ‘fex or a dreadnought was a significant formidable foe. Now in a world of knights and other Lord of War stuff they are middling at best.
They should still be tougher than a Rhino though...



A Rhino is the same hull used for Predator and Vindicator tanks.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Was a Carnifex ever tougher than a Tank? Weren't they T6 with multiple wounds to the Rhino's AV 11/11/10?
   
Made in us
Nihilistic Necron Lord






They also had the two dice save when only them and terminators had that.

 
   
Made in ie
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ireland

 alextroy wrote:
Was a Carnifex ever tougher than a Tank? Weren't they T6 with multiple wounds to the Rhino's AV 11/11/10?


In 2nd edition they could be pumped upto Toughness 8 or 9 (can't recall which, think it was 9) due to biomorphs. Which made them very hard to hurt.

The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused. 
   
Made in gb
2nd Lieutenant





 stonehorse wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Was a Carnifex ever tougher than a Tank? Weren't they T6 with multiple wounds to the Rhino's AV 11/11/10?


In 2nd edition they could be pumped upto Toughness 8 or 9 (can't recall which, think it was 9) due to biomorphs. Which made them very hard to hurt.


In second edition Termis made saves on 2d6. Not really sure that is a valid baseline for a game now in its 10th edition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/01 22:46:59


 
   
Made in ie
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ireland

 Dawnbringer wrote:
 stonehorse wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Was a Carnifex ever tougher than a Tank? Weren't they T6 with multiple wounds to the Rhino's AV 11/11/10?


In 2nd edition they could be pumped upto Toughness 8 or 9 (can't recall which, think it was 9) due to biomorphs. Which made them very hard to hurt.


In second edition Termis made saves on 2d6. Not really sure that is a valid baseline for a game now in its 10th edition.


The question was has a Carnifex ever been tougher than a Tank... which was true in 2nd edition when compared to some tanks. So it is a valid answer.

The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused. 
   
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
A Rhino is the same hull used for Predator and Vindicator tanks.
Both of which are significantly up-armoured over a basic APC.

 alextroy wrote:
Was a Carnifex ever tougher than a Tank? Weren't they T6 with multiple wounds to the Rhino's AV 11/11/10?
In 2nd Ed it was T8 with 10 wounds and was the only thing outside of Terminators that had a 2D6 save, capable of shrugging off Lascannons with their -6 save modifier. And for 100 points you could give it regeneration to make it even tougher.

Carnifexes should be tough. They should certainly be tougher than a blasted APC.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 MajorWesJanson wrote:
A Rhino is the same hull used for Predator and Vindicator tanks.
Both of which are significantly up-armoured over a basic APC.

 alextroy wrote:
Was a Carnifex ever tougher than a Tank? Weren't they T6 with multiple wounds to the Rhino's AV 11/11/10?
In 2nd Ed it was T8 with 10 wounds and was the only thing outside of Terminators that had a 2D6 save, capable of shrugging off Lascannons with their -6 save modifier. And for 100 points you could give it regeneration to make it even tougher.

Carnifexes should be tough. They should certainly be tougher than a blasted APC.


Vindicator, yes. Predator no. The predator is just a razorback with sponsons for the most part.


 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Turrets are generally heavily armoured, so yes, the Predator is up armoured over a Rhino even if just because there's more of it.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in au
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





Depends on the model. The 30k one does have more frontal armour plating and little shield thingies that give the guns workbits a little extra protection.

The 40k one is a bit lackluster on it's design.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 alextroy wrote:
Was a Carnifex ever tougher than a Tank? Weren't they T6 with multiple wounds to the Rhino's AV 11/11/10?


The other thing was a Carny would take damage and keep going, it wouldn't get "tank shock" and just sit there doing nothing for a turn.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The SK is a liiittle tougher with the 2+ and will benefit more from cover than a rhino.

Definitely curious to see the scaling for other stuff.
   
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The SK is a liiittle tougher with the 2+ and will benefit more from cover than a rhino.
If it turns out that the Predator and Vindicator are also T9 (or even just the Predator), then fine. There's also that "anti-vehicle" thing we talked about in the other thread. If there's no anti-monster, or anti-vehicle doesn't also affect 'monster' units in the same way, then things might change.

I'm just adamant that Carnifexes (and by extension Screamer Killers) should be tougher than Rhinos. They can be weaker than Predators and whatever, just not Rhinos.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Not sure I agree with you there about new models being worse. Sure, the Archon has a weird pose, but all the other kits that got updates are just amazing. Whether it be Wracks, Voidraven Bomber, Succubus, Incubi, and Drazhar.


The Voidraven was a new model, not a replacement.

Wracks, sure. Though that was years ago now.

The succubus is barely any different. Might as well have just left the old model and given us something else instead.

Incubi are fine, I guess. Though I'd argue they really didn't need new sculpts per se - just a material that wasn't absolute arse.

Can't agree on Drazhar. he just looks like an ordinary Klaivex wearing a coral reef while awkwardly dancing. There's none of the silent menace his artwork has traditionally evoked. I'd swear more effort went into his stupid scenic base than on Drazhr himself.

There was also the Haemonculus, again far worse than the one it replaced.

Same with the Archon. The old one was so good it got used on the covers of codices even years after it was retired, whilst the new one is the incarnation of dullness, standing in the most boring pose on earth, with the face of a potato.

 Eldarsif wrote:

However, Drukhari does suffer from being one of the books that had a ton of units(mostly characters) that just never had models and which they suffer from having lost now.


Necrons also had a lot of characters without kits.

GW solved that problem by giving them kits.

And then more kits.

And then yet more kits.

And then even more kits last edition.


 Eldarsif wrote:
Also, in before raging at Lelith. The model is very nice. The problem is that the paint job on it doesn't really do much for it.


No paint scheme can save that model.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





I've seen a couple good schemes. Nothing that I can achieve personally though.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
The SK is a liiittle tougher with the 2+ and will benefit more from cover than a rhino.
If it turns out that the Predator and Vindicator are also T9 (or even just the Predator), then fine. There's also that "anti-vehicle" thing we talked about in the other thread. If there's no anti-monster, or anti-vehicle doesn't also affect 'monster' units in the same way, then things might change.

I'm just adamant that Carnifexes (and by extension Screamer Killers) should be tougher than Rhinos. They can be weaker than Predators and whatever, just not Rhinos.
Well, we've already seen the rules:

Rhino is T9, Sv 3+, 10 Wounds
Screamer-Killer is T9, Sv 2+, 10 Wounds

So the Screamer-Killer (and presumedly the Carnifex) is tougher than a Rhino.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

You know what I'd wish they'd preview for us? The two page spread of what an army actually is in 10th.

Show off the Space Marine whateverthefethitscalled Strike Force, both pages, with the structure of the army, its rules, its enhancements, and its strats.

Give us an idea of what a force will look like at its core for everyone else.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/02 04:17:11


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You know what I'd wish they'd preview for us? The two page spread of what an army actually is in 10th.

Show off the Space Marine whateverthefethitscalled Strike Force, both pages, with the structure of the army, its rules, its enhancements, and its strats.

Give us an idea of what a force will look like at its core for everyone else.


We at least have a chance of that happening this week as they will be starting the faction focus articles
   
Made in fr
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
It’s not just scale creep, but scope creep. Back in the day a ‘fex or a dreadnought was a significant formidable foe. Now in a world of knights and other Lord of War stuff they are middling at best.
They should still be tougher than a Rhino though...




Well lucky you. It is.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






As long as Bigger Bugs have toughness to rival bigger tanks? I can probably accept Screamer Killers and, presumably, Carnifex, being slightly weedier than expected.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Hey look! It’s my 2025 Hobby Log/Blog/Project/Whatevs 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




If we look at marine tanks they've shown so far they've scaled between toughness 9 and 12. I'd expect something similar for nid big bugs. Maybe:

Screamer Killer: T9
Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord: T9
Exocrine/Haruspex: T10
Tyrannofex: T12

   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

tneva82 wrote:
Well lucky you. It is.
It's the same toughness.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






For context? Those of us wanting Really Tough Carnifex all come from 2nd Edition, when the Carnifex was the terror of the board.

It was fairly simple to use. Just aim it at something juicy, then watch your opponent struggle to drop it - spesh if you’d bought it Regeneration.

That’s a really difficult mental image and expectation to shake off, despite it no longer being the biggest bug.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Hey look! It’s my 2025 Hobby Log/Blog/Project/Whatevs 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

It doesn't have to be the toughest Tyranid - I fully admit that things like the Tyrannofex, Exocrine, Haruspex, Hierodules and so on are and should be tougher. I just can't get over the idea of a frickin' Rhino being more durable than a Carnifex.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Using Object Source Lighting







The problem is not so much the overall size but the frame they did the new bugs... they just used same bulky nid frame and changed sizes...
If they kept the carnifex has a "rhinocerous" frame and the other bigger bugs has errr "giraffes" that would be ok.

   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut





New Valrak video

Only real new thing is that the preorder isn't a three week threeorder as previously rumoured but a two week one starting on June 10th

Summary:
Release date June 24th with 2 week preorder starting June 10th

Together with SM/Tyranids codex:
Chaplain in Terminator armour
Prime Swarmlord (not from his sources)

Dark Angels range refresh with Belial
Blood Angels will get something, heard Sanguinary Guard
For Space Wolves he heard about a new boxset

Second Waves like Orks got for Aeldari and Votann (Votann may also get a Land Train for Necromunda)

Kill Team Scouts vs Striking Scorpions

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/02 11:26:37


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It doesn't have to be the toughest Tyranid - I fully admit that things like the Tyrannofex, Exocrine, Haruspex, Hierodules and so on are and should be tougher. I just can't get over the idea of a frickin' Rhino being more durable than a Carnifex.


True. It’s a living engine of destruction. Its thick armour is only part of its toughness, because its internal organs and brain being so small/alien in design means telling blows are difficult to hit in the first place.

See its head? That’s just a battering ram. It’s size is not related to the mass of the brain, but because it makes a really efficient thing to head butt whatever you’re wanting headbutted in the moment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NAVARRO wrote:
The problem is not so much the overall size but the frame they did the new bugs... they just used same bulky nid frame and changed sizes...
If they kept the carnifex has a "rhinocerous" frame and the other bigger bugs has errr "giraffes" that would be ok.


That bothers me less. The Hive Mind likes its efficient designs. If the Carnifex came first, and the biological layout worked in terms of angles and thickness of chitin? Just upscale that to produce a bigger bug. No need to go reinventing the…erm…sod it, oesophagus.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/02 11:32:18


Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Hey look! It’s my 2025 Hobby Log/Blog/Project/Whatevs 
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




Thanks to killerturtle13 for the summary

Warhammer Fest Monday 40k FAQ session notes

I went to the 40k Q&A at Warhammer Fest today and took some notes on the answers.

I think a lot is stuff that we know already, but in case it's interesting to anyone here are my notes (in the order asked)

- **Thousand Sons and different psychic powers between squads**

Squads with same datasheet will have same abilities (i.e. two rubric squads will be the same)

Adding characters can add their abilities (e.g. the librarian datasheet we've seen)

- **Alternating activations**

No, still not a thing.

- **Index cards**

Intending to keep the launch ones in stock until the relevant codex comes out.

When codex comes out, index cards will be replaced.
The launch version of the cards will be free to download (don't know if the codex versions will be, wasn't clear)

If some armies are creaking around the edges, other routes to change them may be done (presumably this just means balance dataslates etc)

- **Scalpers? Maybe physical pre-order day in store?**

Intend to have queues on page, throttle number can be put in cart, etc. Physical release day does raise legal issues, has to be able to be ordered from every possible location at the same time or the monopoly commission will get involved. They hadn't heard that particular suggestion before.

- **Psyker units and mortal wounds**

Less mortal wounds overall. Idea is for every army to have a way to deal with every other army

- **Preventing feels bad, super powerful units**

Usually unbalanced things are mistakes. Reducing layering of rules is intended to reduce snowballing rules and codex creep, that's why there are different detachments with one-in-one-out rules. Eddie Eccles mentioned Gladius strike force and iyanden force while answering this, but it sounded more like he was trying to come up with examples on the fly rather than confirming that Iyanden would be a named detachment and not being represented by a wraith host detachment or something.

- **Flyers**

Interesting one for making rules, as they don't really play in same ballpark as most of 40k.

Tried to make them impactful in the game, but not changing the game.

They will be generally terrible at holding objectives, but good at hitting things and flying away (so not really any change there?)

- **Flamers auto-hitting flyers**

Not all flamers auto hit, but auto-hit weapons will still auto-hit flyers - stated that sometimes to avoid awkward rule exceptions they have to accept a slightly weird interaction like this.

- **Space marine chapters**

BA, DA, SW, BT, DW have their own index decks.
With the codex release, there might be a bike detachment etc. It will say white scars typify it, but not limited. Imperial Fists-like siege detachment, etc.

- **Combat patrol**

To play combat patrol, you just use a combat patrol box. You can use a subset of each side of the Leviathan box as a combat patrol too (think there was a screenshot of the subset in question in the video). Combat patrol will generally ignore weapon options to make however you build the kit not matter - e.g. Dreadnought sheet might just have "Dreadnought long range weapons" or something like that (dunno if that is actually the case for a Dreadnought or just a random possible example)

- **Deny the witch**

There is no deny the witch. Some units have abilities that give feel no pain against attacks with psychic attacks. Eddie couldn't remember exactly, but Sisters of Silence have some kind of no psychic powers within 6" or something similar.

- **Relics/warlord traits**

Enhancements replace these

- **Will models that can only be bought with other things (the necron/SM stuff from Indomitus that you can only buy together currently for example) be made available on their own?**

They don't have a blanket rule to ensure everything is available separately. Impossible to make every single thing in 40k available separately as the warehouses couldn't handle it. Stuff that shares a sprue would need redesigning on its own sprue. When codexes come out, they look at things that need refreshing, new things, things that aren't available on their own yet, etc, and decide from those what to make.

- **Any plan to make the remaining two c'tan available not in resin?**

"Who says there's only 2?"

- **Imperial armour**

Coming after launch, but not long after

- **Will there be more Heresy/40k crossover units, tanks etc?**

Differences between the way legions and chapters fight. Things may not cross over. If you want space marines with crazy space marine stuff, then heresy will have lots.

- **Things coming new to Crusade?**

They decided it mostly works pretty well currently. Didn't want to rock the boat too much, so a lot the same. Rules are delivered differently to currently. Crusade rules likely delivered alongside narrative updates, 4th Tyrannic war etc. Crusade rules will be in codex. (I guess the biggest change will be power level going away, they didn't mention that here though)

- **Leagues of votann - faction still has large gaps**

Kill team coming soon, miniatures with codex release, avoided saying anything might happen before that despite the questioner repeating it

- **Balance dataslates still happening?**

Intent to keep trying to make 40k balanced. Probably still quarterly.

- **Will 10th have reactions like Horus Heresy?**

Not exactly like Horus Heresy, but a lot of stratagems are reactive. Overwatch a lot more flexible. Mentioned the deep strike on the opponent turn one.

- **True line of sight, cover**

New edition is more generous to defender than attacker than it is currently, easier to get ~~coffee~~ cover bonus across whole unit rather than individual models.

- **Plasma, does it still work the same?**

Different plasma weapons have different amounts of settings (they mentioned 1, 2, or even 3), mostly it's still just "safe" or "not safe" like currently

- **New model for Ezekiel?**

Probably update some minis with codex release and do some new stuff. Didn't confirm anything specific. Sounds like each codex will probably be accompanied by multiple miniatures being released for the faction.

- **Can leaders be joined to vehicles?**

No

- **Will BT for example need both BT and SM Codex?**

No. In most cases you only need one codex. If taking allies e.g. Imperial knights you will need the datacard for the unit as well, but they don't get any of their codex rules so you don't really need anything beyond the data card and options

- **News about new 40k App?**

New app coming. Current app doesn't support new rules. Will still have benefits for WH+. Can still unlock stuff with codes (so I'd guess all indices will be available on release and then have to unlock individual codices, like with the 9th ed app)

- **Space marine named characters**

Very few, if any, limits on which detachments you can take specific characters in. However, you can only take characters from one chapter in the same detachment, you can't mix and match and take Tigurius and Tor Garadon, for example.

- **Will Sergeant Chronus be able to pilot primaris vehicles?**

Didn't know off top of head, but if he works the same as currently then "probably" (they acknowledged that would make him stronger)

I missed the last question, but I don't think it revealed anything.

In addition, from playing 10th:

- **Blast**

Now you add 1 extra hit per 5 models in the target squad, it doesn't affect the dice roll. This does mean you can roll max shots and then still add more.

- **Charge**

This might have just been the guy taking us through having a melted brain after 3 days, but apparently you roll for the charge and then declare targets after you know the results.

The first model has to end base to base with the charged unit. Each model you move in has to end in base to base if it can. Models in base to base contact cannot pile in. Models that are base to base contact can fight, and also models in the same squad that are in base to base contact with them.

- **Battle shock**

Again, could be the guy's melting brain, but you check for battle shock in both your own and your opponent's command phase.

EDIT: Others have reported that their instructor person said it was only in your own command phase, which I think matches with the warcom article. This is what happens when you have people teaching non-stop for 3 days, they get muddled up!

- **CP**

You start with 0, and gain 1 in both player's command phases.

Edit: also, you only consolidate if you wiped the squad you were engaged with, if you do you can do it towards an objective rather than towards an opposing unit.
   
Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





THe charge roll is how it is done in AoS, roll to see your options and then run into any available options.

Now that you don't HAVE to charge what you shot at in modern 40k, its a change I was expecting in 10th
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
THe charge roll is how it is done in AoS, roll to see your options and then run into any available options.

Now that you don't HAVE to charge what you shot at in modern 40k, its a change I was expecting in 10th


I actually dislike the change, that is a layer of skill and risk management being removed imo.
   
 
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