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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Working on Warpsmite math.

DW on Warpsmite will never matter, but I am surprised to see LH is still useful. I really enjoy the consistency against infantry. Though I did not factor in the Custodes FNP so those values will be cut in half.

Yeah this article from a while back already said both Imperial Knights and Chaos Knights can ally still

Voss wrote:
A little torn. The rituals do work as the faction ability, but the cost jumps up real fast- from 2 to 5 (and I'm not clear how many points an army is going to get, the sorcerer leading the rubrics providing _1_ is a bad sign)


Rubrics themselves feel like they got kicked a bit. Downgraded for the buffs that they can possibly get.

Plus, lore-wise, nothing gives a Rubric feel. All is dust is gone, they don't get any benefit (or penlaty) from being empty suits of dust. They read like just standard marines with slightly better guns.


Ahriman seems almost auto-include- even once per game a free ritual of any cost is staggering, and +1 to wound is great.


Kindred sorcery is kind of rubbish as a detachment ability. The few psychic abilities shown here have very few attacks, so hunting for 6s is pretty unlikely. Its best application is Ahriman whacking people with his stick.

Yeah looks like all is Dust is going to be a stratagems I suppose. Seemed a bit odd since the Rubrics reroll wounds is nowhere near as notable as All is Dust.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Xyxel wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Allied Knight loaded with as much dakka as possible/some long ranged Forgeworld unit with dakka (not sure if TSons will have access to them still but w/e)

Allied Knight will have Thousand Sons faction keyword?

No, but there's nothing precluding them from taking advantage of a unit losing armor saves.

Except for the requirement to be a <thousand sons> army to have access to rituals

Which Allied units don't break.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Yeah looks like all is Dust is going to be a stratagems I suppose. Seemed a bit odd since the Rubrics reroll wounds is nowhere near as notable as All is Dust.

Oh gak...I forgot they'll reroll wounds for their smite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warpsmite with full rerolls to wound fishing for crits with SH1 against any T4+ INFANTRY.

Ahriman doesn't have his disc on that profile - it's not even included as wargear.

Are we thinking two seperate dataslates or a false dataslate for the article?

Leggy wrote:
Ahriman doesn't have his disc on that profile - it's not even included as wargear.

Are we thinking two seperate dataslates or a false dataslate for the article?

It'll be two distinct datasheets as currently it changes his movement stat and several keywords.

Or it might be on the back of the card along with who he can join.

"May take a Disc of Tzeentch for +X points, gaining the Fly Keyword and increasing his movement to 12"

The CSM codex and Death Guard look really bad compared to this. It's not even funny.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
The CSM codex and Death Guard look really bad compared to this. It's not even funny.

Tsons look the better at the moment but we got shown more of their stuff than we did for CSM and even DG I think? We don't even known what the CSM detachment bonus is iirc.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
The CSM codex and Death Guard look really bad compared to this. It's not even funny.

We've seen 2 units and a couple of weapons from each faction. We have no points costs. It's far too early to make any sort of predictions.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Or it might be on the back of the card along with who he can join.

"May take a Disc of Tzeentch for +X points, gaining the Fly Keyword and increasing his movement to 12"

If it were that, I think it would be written on the front as Wargear.

I wonder how much will change between two data cards (if that's the way they go). Possibly just movement and who he gets as a bodyguard?

I wouldn't be shocked if Disc Ahriman lost Leader and gained Lone Operative instead, since the only Disc non-Character unit in the codex are the Tzaangor Enlightened iirc.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I wouldn't be shocked if Disc Ahriman lost Leader and gained Lone Operative instead, since the only Disc non-Character unit in the codex are the Tzaangor Enlightened iirc.

That was my thought as well, that he could be a non leader variant, but I also could see GW forcing him to attach to Enlightened.

Edit: covered

Huh, 1k Sons seems very interesting. I feel that at least at first the bookkeeping will be a bit much - as you have to keep track of how many points you generate per turn which will be different every turn. Once the numbers are fully internalized (or if they are very easy like jobber infantry sorcerers 1, not named leaders 2, ahriman 3, magnus 4), it shouldn't be too difficult. Ahriman granting a blanket "no armor for you" for free is downright dirty, as I cannot ever envision a situation in which someone would rather reroll a single saving throw with him over that for example.

I have, as the middle aged man I am, been grumbling to my gaming buddies a lot over the last previews. I really get the feeling we are seeing another era of hero-hammer. Many, if not most, of the named characters, the faction leader poster children seems to get some special rule making them very strong to the point of auto include. And before people start saying "we haven't seen their points yet", how much will be TS-player be willing to pay for Ahzek "No save for you" Ahriman? Twice the cost for a Sorceror Lord? Thrice? Because he will be taken. A lot!

Agusto wrote:
I have, as the middle aged man I am, been grumbling to my gaming buddies a lot over the last previews. I really get the feeling we are seeing another era of hero-hammer. Many, if not most, of the named characters, the faction leader poster children seems to get some special rule making them very strong to the point of auto include. And before people start saying "we haven't seen their points yet", how much will be TS-player be willing to pay for Ahzek "No save for you" Ahriman? Twice the cost for a Sorceror Lord? Thrice? Because he will be taken. A lot!

I'll take hero hammer which is far more predictable and measurable in terms of impact and solutions than keyword/CP spaghetti we have now.

1 rules heavy anchor in an army that also happens to be a fluff corner stone? Way better than some dudes deepstriking in and stripping the souls out of multiple guys in multiple units and casually ignoring wounds because 4 guys happen to be stood within arms reach and a combination of layered strats tip them from almost underpowered to one of the most stupid units in the game.

Glad to see A'rryman looking good.

Is All is Dust not now just represented by rolling it into the Psychic defence and the simple 5+ invulnerable?

Shame CSM have to suffer to get their boons, seems a little unfair they're not a little stronger or there's not a little more risk/reward available. Abaddon looks like he can still deal some horrendous damage, even if a little less resilient but i'll be interested to see what the various God key words mean. My gut is he should still have some other form of defence, possibly just a FNP like Trajann but we'll see how it plays out with him in a brick of terminators.

Death Guard look like they've displeased the share holders somehow?

Custodes look hot.

 kurhanik wrote:
Huh, 1k Sons seems very interesting. I feel that at least at first the bookkeeping will be a bit much - as you have to keep track of how many points you generate per turn which will be different every turn. Once the numbers are fully internalized (or if they are very easy like jobber infantry sorcerers 1, not named leaders 2, ahriman 3, magnus 4), it shouldn't be too difficult. Ahriman granting a blanket "no armor for you" for free is downright dirty, as I cannot ever envision a situation in which someone would rather reroll a single saving throw with him over that for example.

Doombolt is probably going to have to be a consideration. Anti-tank (and monster) has been a lasting problem for pure TS, and since the powers that replace smite are looking infantry focused, its going to be even more so. (The S6, 1 Damage soulreaper certainly isn't any kind of AT against the improved vehicles). I doubt the missiles on the terminators plus dreads and predators, are going to be sufficient.

Pushing a chunk of MW from Doombolt every turn (via normal cabal points) is probably going to be a big contributor to the faction's AT.

Agusto wrote:
I have, as the middle aged man I am, been grumbling to my gaming buddies a lot over the last previews. I really get the feeling we are seeing another era of hero-hammer. Many, if not most, of the named characters, the faction leader poster children seems to get some special rule making them very strong to the point of auto include. And before people start saying "we haven't seen their points yet", how much will be TS-player be willing to pay for Ahzek "No save for you" Ahriman? Twice the cost for a Sorceror Lord? Thrice? Because he will be taken. A lot!

I think people seriously overvalue this ability. He can use it once per game. The other rules for rituals still apply, i.e. you can't use the no-safe ritual a second time in the same turn. You also can use everything else only once, and you can't save ritual points for your next turn. And you need to be in range of the unit you'd want to delete, and have enough units in range as well to do the actual deleting.

It's powerful, but more situational than it appears - you run a real danger of missing the perfect timing for it, and sometimes you'll end up throwing a Doombolt instead.

I play Eldar, CSM, Daemons, and TS, although TS is my favorite, and my first love army, playing some variant of them since 3rd edition (when it was just rubrics and Ahriman and CSM stuff). So far I have been happy with all of the reveals for those factions, but TS I think is being handled very nicely.

When GW said that the psychic phase was going away I was worried about TS, as back in 3-5th, psychic was just really shooting attacks that required a leadership test, or some kind of usually very weak or totally OP buff/debuff. And so far most "psychic" stuff just seems to be mid-level shooting attacks and some good/ok buffs and debuffs. But with that Cabal rule I think GW really knocked this one out of the park as to keeping the feel of what the TS should be i.e. psychic army, in the simplified format for psychic powers in 10th. I mean TS basically still gets 5 powers to choose from similar to the old psyker rules, only with way more flexibility (can use multiple phases and don't need to pick who has them at the start of the battle) and without the ability to fail them. And all of them seem pretty good, with the "no armor save" being way bonkers, especially with the ability to hand out lethal hits. (TS have traditionally have had issues with anti-tank, and hopefully this can help mitigate that)

I always felt that TS were a bit of an afterthought for GW, but these rules seem to fit what I would expect out of the army (I don't care if they are good or bad as long as they feel like TS, although the Cabal rule seems like it will be very good).

As to the rest of the rules, losing "all is dust" kind of stinks, but DG and other have lost that kind of extra layer of durability as well, so I think it was to be expected. They do now have 5++ baked back in their datasheet (in 9th it was faction rule). Also for only 2 Cabal points you can re-roll a save? That is great for stopping low shot high powered weapons, and you can do that once each phase. Also vortex beasts may finally be relevant.

Also the ability to use a free strat for 6 Cabal will be incredible depending on the strats. The one they previewed was really niche and not to impressive, but if they have some kind of resurrection mechanic, defense strat, or return fire strat that would be cool, but even free use of the general strats could be really good. My current list would generate 14 cabal points, which would allow the use of the free strat power 2 times (you can use it again in different phases) and one save re-roll. That is if I am not throwing out mortals or taking away saves. And with CP being more limited, it makes that ability even better.

I am really looking forward to playing them in 10th.

Cabal is interesting. Nice to at least have something interactive.

Faction ability seems a bit meh but I guess we'll see.

Agusto wrote:
I have, as the middle aged man I am, been grumbling to my gaming buddies a lot over the last previews. I really get the feeling we are seeing another era of hero-hammer. Many, if not most, of the named characters, the faction leader poster children seems to get some special rule making them very strong to the point of auto include. And before people start saying "we haven't seen their points yet", how much will be TS-player be willing to pay for Ahzek "No save for you" Ahriman? Twice the cost for a Sorceror Lord? Thrice? Because he will be taken. A lot!

I see what you mean, generally I prefer using a 'yourdudes' HQ rather than a named character. Would be nice if we could build out HQs to rival named characters that way they are not auto includes.

That said, I think we'd see Ahriman fielded a lot regardless since he is the poster could for the 1k Sons,

 vipoid wrote:
Cabal is interesting. Nice to at least have something interactive.

Faction ability seems a bit meh but I guess we'll see.

Cabal IS the Faction ability, and think you meant the Detachment ability (suspect those are going to be getting confused for the other for awhile into 10th), which yeah one can only hope they get some more interesting options besides the one in the preview.

Ahriman being an auto-include isn't a surprise, he's been in every Thousand Sons (and most CSM) army since 8th.

I'm still not sure what the army is supposed to do against heavy tanks, with the Cabal rule preventing you from taking your own vehicles as much as it did in 9th. Otherwise the army seems to be more or less what I'd want it to be.

 ikeulhu wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Cabal is interesting. Nice to at least have something interactive.

Faction ability seems a bit meh but I guess we'll see.

Cabal IS the Faction ability, and think you meant the Detachment ability (suspect those are going to be getting confused for the other for awhile into 10th), which yeah one can only hope they get some more interesting options besides the one in the preview.

Unfortunately, TS are stuck with that one for a year or more (the roadmap goes to spring of next year, and they aren't on it).


----
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Voss wrote:

 ikeulhu wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Cabal is interesting. Nice to at least have something interactive.

Faction ability seems a bit meh but I guess we'll see.

Cabal IS the Faction ability, and think you meant the Detachment ability (suspect those are going to be getting confused for the other for awhile into 10th), which yeah one can only hope they get some more interesting options besides the one in the preview.

Unfortunately, TS are stuck with that one for a year or more (the roadmap goes to spring of next year, and they aren't on it).

That is assuming 1 detachment only per faction in the Index. I expect more to be likely, with even more added by codex releases. Possibly something like 3 in the index and then double or triple that after.

Granted, I am fully aware this may be expecting too much of GW, but multiple detachments in Index makes a lot of sense considering things like Dark Angels, who may get things like a Deathwing and/or Ravenwing detachment added to the standard SM detachment choice.

 ikeulhu wrote:

Voss wrote:

 ikeulhu wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Cabal is interesting. Nice to at least have something interactive.

Faction ability seems a bit meh but I guess we'll see.

Cabal IS the Faction ability, and think you meant the Detachment ability (suspect those are going to be getting confused for the other for awhile into 10th), which yeah one can only hope they get some more interesting options besides the one in the preview.

Unfortunately, TS are stuck with that one for a year or more (the roadmap goes to spring of next year, and they aren't on it).

That is assuming 1 detachment only per faction in the Index. I expect more to be likely, with even more added by codex releases. Possibly something like 3 in the index and then double or triple that after.

No.

The Index Cards released at the dawn of the new edition will each come with one Detachment, representing a common fighting style for a particular faction, and more will emerge as new Codexes arrive and armies expand.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/07/faction-rules-are-leaner-and-cleaner-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000/

Bummer, I missed the one detachment only in that article, that does make for a longer wait sadly.