10th Edition Rumour Roundup - in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only power levels

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**Insularum**

Jidmah wrote:
Why on earth did they take away the flail and the icon for plague marines?

These are now heavy plague weapon & whoops we forgot that was a thing.

**H.B.M.C.**

Jidmah wrote:
Why on earth did they take away the flail and the icon for plague marines?

They amalgamated the weapons.

Deamonic Plague Blade? Gone.
Plague Mace? Gone.
Bubotic Axe? Gone.
Great Plague Cleaver? Gone.
Flail of Corruption? Gone.
Power Fist? Gone.

Now they're just "Bubotic Weapons" and "Heavy Plague Weapons".

"But the Terminators still have-"

Yep. They do.

Chaosistency!

**Souleater**

To borrow from Red Dwarf…they’re dead, Dave.

**Insularum**

Not only chaosistent in wargear availability, chaosistent in wargear effect too.

Little dude with a flail - hits like an unwieldy power fist
Big dude with identical looking flail - hits like a s5 chainsword

**xerxeskingofking**

Insularum wrote:
Not only chaosistent in wargear availability, chaosistent in wargear effect too.

Little dude with a flail - hits like an unwieldy power fist
Big dude with identical looking flail - hits like a s5 chainsword

I mean, they literally said that weapon stats were not going to be consistent accross all users, way back at the start of this reveal cycle. I was under the impress they were always going to be pulling something like this, where two weapons that were previously identical will now have differing statlines.

I get it, it's frustrating as all hell. For God-Emperors sake, I play deathwatch and Admech, I feel your pain as well. But I, for one, am not too surprised that Plague marines, one of the poster boys for everything wrong with the 9th edition implementation "no model no rules", got heavily consolidated to get rid of that much bemoaned list of "for every 5 models in this unit, one can X".

**AtoMaki**

xerxeskingofking wrote:
to get rid of that much bemoaned list of "for every 5 models in this unit, one can X"

They still have that list tho.

**Kothra**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Again I have to ask: In the new Deathwing Command Squad rules, a Cyclone cannot upgrade his Storm Bolter/Fist to anything else. Am I right in saying that this is a change, as he can right now?

Nope, it's exactly the same as it is right now in 9th.

Well, maybe you can twist the rules with the way it's written in 9th to try and stack the options, but I feel like that's not what's intended.

**xerxeskingofking**

AtoMaki wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
to get rid of that much bemoaned list of "for every 5 models in this unit, one can X"

They still have that list tho.

and its half the length was previously (7 entries, vs 14 in 9e). I'd call that a consolidation.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kothra wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Again I have to ask: In the new Deathwing Command Squad rules, a Cyclone cannot upgrade his Storm Bolter/Fist to anything else. Am I right in saying that this is a change, as he can right now?

Nope, it's exactly the same as it is right now in 9th.

not quite? in current rules, he can still upgrade the powerfist to a chainfist (" Any number of models can each have their power fist replaced with 1 chainfist." & "1 Deathwing Terminator’s storm bolter can be replaced with one of the following:....; 1 storm bolter and 1 cyclone missile launcher")

so it would be allowed now, but not on this new sheet.

I'm honestly expecting something simmilar with my scarabs, to be honest. currently you can (and i have) put the hellfire missiles on the heavy weapons guy, but i wouldnt be suprised if that wording changed in 10e as well.

**Kothra**

xerxeskingofking wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kothra wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Again I have to ask: In the new Deathwing Command Squad rules, a Cyclone cannot upgrade his Storm Bolter/Fist to anything else. Am I right in saying that this is a change, as he can right now?

Nope, it's exactly the same as it is right now in 9th.

not quite? in current rules, he can still upgrade the powerfist to a chainfist (" Any number of models can each have their power fist replaced with 1 chainfist." & "1 Deathwing Terminator’s storm bolter can be replaced with one of the following:....; 1 storm bolter and 1 cyclone missile launcher")

so it would be allowed now, but not on this new sheet.

I don't see anything on the new sheet preventing the Cyclone marine from taking a chainfist.

**tneva82**

xerxeskingofking wrote:
[

not quite? in current rules, he can still upgrade the powerfist to a chainfist (" Any number of models can each have their power fist replaced with 1 chainfist." & "1 Deathwing Terminator’s storm bolter can be replaced with one of the following:....; 1 storm bolter and 1 cyclone missile launcher")

so it would be allowed now, but not on this new sheet.

I'm honestly expecting something simmilar with my scarabs, to be honest. currently you can (and i have) put the hellfire missiles on the heavy weapons guy, but i wouldnt be suprised if that wording changed in 10e as well.

Umm. Storm bolter can't be changed. Fist can.

What can't be done what technically could before: change storm bolter for storm bolter and missile and then change that new storm bolter and fist to say twin lightning claws. Or thunder hammer & shieldx

If somebody modeled that he could be pissed.

Only change was storm bolter of cyclone can't be changed.

Oh and stops idea of assault cannon/missile/fist model in 10 strong unit.

**bullyboy**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Why on earth did they take away the flail and the icon for plague marines?
They amalgamated the weapons.

Deamonic Plague Blade? Gone.
Plague Mace? Gone.
Bubotic Axe? Gone.
Great Plague Cleaver? Gone.
Flail of Corruption? Gone.
Power Fist? Gone.

Now they're just "Bubotic Weapons" and "Heavy Plague Weapons".

"But the Terminators still have-"

Yep. They do.

Chaosistency!

Biggest issue to me is where will it indicate what profile to use when it’s not obvious? Is it player choice. Should the flail be the regular bubotic weapon or the heavy?

**Jidmah**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Why on earth did they take away the flail and the icon for plague marines?
They amalgamated the weapons.

Deamonic Plague Blade? Gone.
Plague Mace? Gone.
Bubotic Axe? Gone.
Great Plague Cleaver? Gone.
Flail of Corruption? Gone.
Power Fist? Gone.

Now they're just "Bubotic Weapons" and "Heavy Plague Weapons".

"But the Terminators still have-"

Yep. They do.

Chaosistency!

For all weapons but the flail, this is a good thing. Because the great plague cleaver, mace of contagion and powerfist just did the same thing, except they forced you to slow-roll them. Same for plague knife, long plague knife, pointy plague knife, pair of plague knives and plague axe. No meaningful decisions, just slowed down gameplay and modeling limitations.

However, the flail? That thing had an impact, and was vastly different from the other options. Heck, they even acknowledged that for terminators.

In any case, you in particular have no right to complain about this. You have been whining about being unable to parse the plague marine datasheet ever since it has been previewed, and I absolutely reserve the right to blame people like you for this dumb change..

**Nightlord1987**

Axe, daemon blade, mace are bubonic blades, flail, cleaver, and those weird 4 fingered powerfist are Heavy plague weapons (which follow the PF profile).

Terminators hit on 3s regular dudes hit on 4s. So it seems consistent.

This also opens up modeling opportunities. Now the big axe man or flail dude can be your champ. Slap the Plasmagun backpack on him and done.

We did lose two plague knives, but that guy is just extra skilled and his knives are now bubonic blades. Also plasma pistol is still a straight downgrade to plasmaguns, yet they're modeled everywhere on the Champs. OH well. I don't need to buy any more Death Guard, so that works out well for me haha!

**AduroT**

Back in my day the Cyclone Missile Guy didn’t even get to have a Storm Bolter with it!

**Jidmah**

xerxeskingofking wrote:
I get it, it's frustrating as all hell. For God-Emperors sake, I play deathwatch and Admech, I feel your pain as well. But I, for one, am not too surprised that Plague marines, one of the poster boys for everything wrong with the 9th edition implementation "no model no rules", got heavily consolidated to get rid of that much bemoaned list of "for every 5 models in this unit, one can X".

No model, no rules you say?

Meanwhile, plague marines still have the option to field two identical looking flamers with different profiles.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nightlord1987 wrote:
Axe, daemon blade, mace are bubonic blades, flail, cleaver, and those weird 4 fingered powerfist are Heavy plague weapons (which follow the PF profile).

So what makes you think mace is not a heavy plague weapon while the flail is?

**Nightlord1987**

The mace is the single hand weapon, paired with the axe, while the flail is two handed?

**Asmodai**

First article of the day is a teaser for the Psychophage: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/02/the-psychophage-will-eat-your-brain-and-then-the-rest-of-you/

Titans in about an hour, then we'll see if Valrak's schedule is correct about the quickstart and core rules coming out today.

**NAVARRO**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Why on earth did they take away the flail and the icon for plague marines?
They amalgamated the weapons.

Deamonic Plague Blade? Gone.
Plague Mace? Gone.
Bubotic Axe? Gone.
Great Plague Cleaver? Gone.
Flail of Corruption? Gone.
Power Fist? Gone.

Now they're just "Bubotic Weapons" and "Heavy Plague Weapons".

"But the Terminators still have-"

Yep. They do.

Chaosistency!

Yikes thats a lot of things gone! BTW we can have 7 man units right?

**H.B.M.C.**

NAVARRO wrote:
Yikes thats a lot of things gone! BTW we can have 7 man units right?

Despite some panicked rumours to the contrary, yes, Plague Marines can still be purchased in Sacred Number-adhering units of 7.

**Scottywan82**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Weapons with different stats are jusr bloat. Truly every unit should just have a 'Firepower Rating' and a 'Fight Rating' so we never have to endure the enless torture of having to remember that flamers and shotguns are different things.

I'm gonna need you to lower your voice before they hear you.

**Daedalus81**

Boosykes wrote:
alextroy wrote:
So the issue wasn't that Death Guard was bad, it was that Death Guard was played badly.

No. Go watch the stream. Read the data sheets. They are bad. Not trying to be rude, everyone said wait and see and so while I said they are bad I did wait and see. They are bad. Entropy cannon s10 they basically have nothing that can deal with tank.

Plague Marines ability is a +1 to battleahock tests when in range of objectives, army ability is sticky objectives.
Terminators are 4in move, they went off screen for like minute with no explination then claimed the blighords made a 9 or ten inch charge. It was the only time they went off screen during the stream and it felt really staged. Even if it wasent it dosent matter.

The foul blightspawn is decent but he can only join plague marines. Which will get shot off the table quickly. Lord of virulence was good.

Mortarion is not nearly tanky enough he can hide as he dosent have titanic if he is in the open he will not servive a single shooting faze for most opponents. So he can charge somthing do mediocre damage. (on stream he killed 2 flamers in Melle) then die.

Blightlord do very little ranged damage and hit anything but infintry with pillow fists. Seriously dea h guard will not be able to handle tanks basically at all.

Their flamer equivlants(plague sprayers and such) are good. Overwatch strategem with the sprayers did a good chunk of damage to be'lakor.

Disgusting resilient is a 2cp strategem that only works in the fight faze.

These guys are just going to get shoot off the table while trying to waddle into Melle and if they make it into Melee with anything that is not infantry they will bounce off.

Don't take my word for it watchthe stream or just wait and see.

Finally army look slightly bigger than now but not by much.

Game was 88-95 when he tossed himself into melee with stuff that does really well in melee. Some of the datasheets are crap, but I don't think it's a good representation of DG.

Also they were sitting on CP all game. It's pretty clear they were stumbling through.

**xerxeskingofking**

Daedalus81 wrote:

Game was 88-95 when he tossed himself into melee with stuff that does really well in melee. Some of the datasheets are crap, but I don't think it's a good representation of DG.

Also they were sitting on CP all game. It's pretty clear they were stumbling through.

my understanding is CP generation is more limited than the late 9th norm. could it just be they were playing cautious with their CP so they always had that clinch re-roll in their back pockets, etc?

I mean, demonstration games are rarely played at "full ability", and are often stage managed to some degree to make it more exciting/showcase certain things they want to push. I haven't watched the stream, and dont intend to, so i dont know how accurate an assessment that is, though.

**tneva82**

0 to begin with.,1 per player turn so 2/battle round. Some free commands available like flesh hound can hesoic intervene for free

**Shadow Walker**

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/02/faction-focus-titans/

**Daedalus81**

100 wounds!

**Voss**

xerxeskingofking wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:

Game was 88-95 when he tossed himself into melee with stuff that does really well in melee. Some of the datasheets are crap, but I don't think it's a good representation of DG.

Also they were sitting on CP all game. It's pretty clear they were stumbling through.

my understanding is CP generation is more limited than the late 9th norm. could it just be they were playing cautious with their CP so they always had that clinch re-roll in their back pockets, etc?

I mean, demonstration games are rarely played at "full ability", and are often stage managed to some degree to make it more exciting/showcase certain things they want to push. I haven't watched the stream, and dont intend to, so i dont know how accurate an assessment that is, though.

There's no way to make a good assessment, to be honest. The announcers (not players) were very removed from the gameplay and often had no idea what was going on. At times it seemed like they were getting info from a game of telephone, for a while they couldn't find the fifth objective marker, or identify what strat was being played when. It took them a good minute to notice Mortarion dying. For viewers, the board was completely obscured by the datacards for at least a quarter of the game, no sound from the table, camera angle was bad (and shaky, and the table shook as well, which was really unpleasant in combination), and there wasn't any clarity as to whose turn it was, who was doing what or why.

From time to time you could hear the (in-person) audience reacting to gameplay moments, so it clearly wasn't as bad at the event, but the stream was really bad for following the 'demonstration game' AND for presenting information (they were showing off cards that the chat wanted to see, rather than putting up cards in reaction to what was happening in game, and so the Lord of Change datasheet was on screen at least 3 times rather than showing something new).

**bullyboy**

The titanic article is such a waste of space. None of those vehicles, while cool of course, belong on a 40K table and any time invested into creating their data sheets is time away from fleshing out actual useable ones.

**H.B.M.C.**

I know a few of us were interested to see how they'd do Void Shields in this edition.

Turns out they're not.

Ok then.

And how is Ghaz worth 18 people in a transport? Are we sure his T6 wasn't an error and he's really T8?

**Shadow Walker**

So Bio-titan has mighty S10 cannons

**Dudeface**

Shadow Walker wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/02/faction-focus-titans/

For the final preview that feels very... anticlimactic.