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Sarouan wrote:
Technically just one. It's a civil war, both sides have more or less the same ressources at their disposal. There are "allied" factions within, but since everything can be taken in the same army, I'd tend to consider it as a whole.

There's two full lists you can take, astartes and auxilia. That'd be two armies, even if they were of the same faction.

Same for Adeptus Titanicus. In the end, it's a game with just one faction including all the titans and knights. I didn't hear their players say "feth off" when it was first released. That's simply how the game is designed.

Kind of a false equivalency, there, when the only thing that existed at the time that wasn't on the book were the Imperator titans, which had a good reason for not being there (being too fething big).

Thing is, that "there's not everything in the rulebook" is a fallacy of the mind. It's just the knowledge we have that there are further miniatures whose rules will be in an expansion that creates it. When Epic 2nd edition launched, all of these expansion armies weren't announced at all. Did players say "feth off" because not all these armies / extra units weren't in the starter box at release ? No. Mostly because they didn't know there would be that many.

But in the end, having an expansion with rules for drops pods / motojets doesn't invalidate the "core" game at all. It's just...an expansion. In a wargame like LI, you don't have to take everything to make a game / army, that's the thing.

After all, people who didn't want to play drop pods or motojets in their army will just shrug and say "don't care".

And the people that want to will say "well... feth", and maybe shrug and just don't.

It is cute how yo try to rationalize the fact that this game is going to give you a lot less bang for your buck than older editions, with smaller rulebooks, did manage to.

Real thing that feth it up is that information / previews come way too fast and in too big numbers. It's just ridiculous, people can't even project themselves with simply the "core set" and build their army gradually. No, now everyone must have everything at once (how will they build / paint everything at the same speed is still a mystery to behold).

Yeah, the fault is of the previews.

Sure.

 xttz wrote:
From the new WarCom WD article:

"A few of their units - jetbike squadrons and drop pods - can be found in the first supplement for the game: The Great Slaughter"

Guessing we'll find out more on that book in this Thursday's HH article.

Great to see something other than Death Guard! Those Blood Angels look really nice, the contrast between the red and the grey bases really make the infantry stand out. Perhaps the smaller scale just lends it self better to brighter colours?

 Albertorius wrote:

There's two full lists you can take, astartes and auxilia. That'd be two armies, even if they were of the same faction.

That's why I say it's a fallacy of the mind. If I wanted, I could take the titans / knights as a third army because they're also a faction on their own. Maybe 4 if you consider titans and knights separately...

In the end, both sides will have the same lists to use as base. That's why my own mind can see it as just one big army list both sides use (a bit like chess using exactly the same pieces, just with a different color). The main difference is loyalist / traitor faction rules, but the base profiles will stay mostly the same.

Kind of a false equivalency, there, when the only thing that existed at the time that wasn't on the book were the Imperator titans, which had a good reason for not being there (being too fething big).

See, that's actually a good example. At the time of the core set of AT, you didn't know which new titan / knight could appear (well...not exactly true, we had some ideas, especially for knights). Surprise surprise, the expansion books of AT did release rules for other miniatures of said titans / knights. Following your logic, I should be offended the same, because it's exactly the same situation ; I don't have "everything" in my core rulebook, in the end.

LI is not really different here. We just know it "early".

And the people that want to will say "well... feth", and maybe shrug and just don't.

Yes, that's the point. In the end, you look at the game as it is when it's released (which is funny, since it's not yet) and decide if it's worth buying it and investing time to build an army or not.

It is cute how yo try to rationalize the fact that this game is going to give you a lot less bang for your buck than older editions, with smaller rulebooks, did manage to.

I'm just an old player having seen countless editions of miniature games with the same pattern - and not just by GW. Rationalization comes from experience.

You can find it cute, but I find it funny you try to build an outrage out of the most natural thing in miniature game industry : they never release everything all at once. Because it's a nightmare in logistics first and also because players crave for new content : if everything is at their disposal right from the beginning, what new can be added ? That's why we have all these old games called "dead" : that's when nothing more is added to them. They are truly "complete". But the reason they are is because all these years of expansions, miniatures and rules being added during that journey 'till they stopped being supported. It's really a fascinating and ironic cycle, really ; most of their player base tend to leave when support ends (and thus "everything" is there), because they see it as meaningless to keep playing and investing in what they call "a dead game with no new stuff to come".

Of course this game at release will have "less content" than older editions. Because that's what all new games face in comparison to old, established games with years of existence and experience behind them. But all of these "old games"...when they were "new" at their time, they were in the exact same situation. You decide which game you play and invest your time into, that's the only difference.



In the end, I believe that a miniature wargame involving building and painting an army is more about the journey that the end. It takes time to do that : nothing like a video game when you just buy "the rules" and play instantly. Here, you have to build your miniature, paint them, find someone to play (and a place too), carry / prepare the table and only then you begin to play. Sure, you can appreciate to build your army depending of "the full army list with drop pods and jetbikes", but will you be able to build that big bad army you have in your mind in a snap of fingers just the day the expansion book will be available ? I believe not. And that's the point it's useless to be making a fuss about it.

It's not a "day-one DLC". It's not a video game, it's a hobby. That's why there are still people building armies out of these "old editions" for so long ; because it's also the journey, not just the end.

In the end, both sides will have the same lists to use as base.

?

There are two distinct armies available for each side to use. Both armies are fully comprised of models that are unique to that army. The divide between the armies isn't loyalist vs. traitor. You can apparently add allies from the other army in small numbers (as well as titans and knights). But arguing that this makes them one army strikes me as similar to arguing that the ability to take Space Marine allies in a 40K Astra Militum list makes them both the same army.

Eumerin wrote:

In the end, both sides will have the same lists to use as base.

?

There are two distinct armies available for each side to use. Both armies are fully comprised of models that are unique to that army. The divide between the armies isn't loyalist vs. traitor. You can apparently add allies from the other army in small numbers (as well as titans and knights). But arguing that this makes them one army strikes me as similar to arguing that the ability to take Space Marine allies in a 40K Astra Militum list makes them both the same army.

It's all about how the game is designed. Horus Heresy (and LI in specifics) isn't like 40k, where you have a lot of varied factions outside of the Imperium : it's a civil war, and the tools at the disposal of both sides are essentially the same. Sure, you have a lot of variety still and you can have 2 lists not looking the same, but it's not the same like an aeldari player will have access to the same tools of a t'au army if they play as aeldari faction. In Horus Heresy, traitors and loyalists use the same profiles as base. That's why it feels "more balanced" and it's also easier to balance, because if you give the same tools to both sides, and if that tool is "slightly overpowered"...well, they do tend to neutralize each other, because both sides can take it.

From what I see we are going to have a lot of choices in units to start with. 70% of your force must be Legion or Auxilia and you can mix specific legions in that 70%. (I wonder if there will be specific Auxilia…). Then the other 30% is anything goes. More base force, the other base force, knights, and titans. Of course to make it more interesting you will have to use the formations provided in the books and I expect those to be heavily expanded via scenario books as the game grows. (I believe AT was similar with Maniples.)

So while there are two army lists, you really can us just about everything to start. (And hopefully we will get a Mechanicum expansion at some point.).

I don’t like them putting specific model rules like drop pods and such in huge expansion books, but I think the base game will have lots of options. And I remain hopeful that if there are just a few units in each expansion there will be alternative ways to get the official info.

Based on just the shear amount of miniatures shown and previewed, it seems like GW plans to have a lot of support to LI going forward. And as much as I hate spreading unit stats out, that is one way to keep a game fresh.

Sarouan wrote:

See, that's actually a good example. At the time of the core set of AT, you didn't know which new titan / knight could appear (well...not exactly true, we had some ideas, especially for knights). Surprise surprise, the expansion books of AT did release rules for other miniatures of said titans / knights. Following your logic, I should be offended the same, because it's exactly the same situation ; I don't have "everything" in my core rulebook, in the end.

It's not the same situation at all. AT had all the titans that existed in the lore at the time, barring Imperator. So it was a full product at the time of release. New stuff was added later.

That's not the same as leaving units that are known to exist in the lore and have had models previewed out of one book to sell a second book. This is DLC and is exactly what happened to Necromunda, where a product was cut up into, what was it, 5 or 6 books in the first year.

Sarouan wrote:

That's why I say it's a fallacy of the mind. If I wanted, I could take the titans / knights as a third army because they're also a faction on their own. Maybe 4 if you consider titans and knights separately...

Not with the rules on the box.

See, that's actually a good example. At the time of the core set of AT, you didn't know which new titan / knight could appear (well...not exactly true, we had some ideas, especially for knights). Surprise surprise, the expansion books of AT did release rules for other miniatures of said titans / knights. Following your logic, I should be offended the same, because it's exactly the same situation ; I don't have "everything" in my core rulebook, in the end.

Which is not the case for drop pods or jetbikes. The drop are a core tenets of space marines since last century, and the jetbikes are probably the main example of "thing that's eveywhere during the Crusade and HH but almost extinct in regular 40k". Meaning both have verygood reasons for being there.

The new titans? well, there's also a reason why I haven't even bothered to get any of them but I have multiples of the core ones .

Sarouan wrote:


It wasn't. All former editions had expansions, nothing was "everything in a single book".

Difference is that there was a significantly longer amount of time between them being announced at the time. There was no Warhammer Community too...

I've trimmed your quote to save space and hope you don't mind.

I did use a poor choice of words about "everything", and yes, GW usually sells an ongoing product range to expand on a game and its models. But the thing is that Legions Imperialis will at least contain enough in the core rule book to get started with the game(even the tokens!). Quite a few of us will be coming into it with models from both Titanicus and Aeronautica, so we've at least got a 30% head start on getting an army together for what is a new(ish) game.

Not bad from just a core rule book.

SamusDrake wrote:

Sarouan wrote:


It wasn't. All former editions had expansions, nothing was "everything in a single book".

Difference is that there was a significantly longer amount of time between them being announced at the time. There was no Warhammer Community too...

I've trimmed your quote to save space and hope you don't mind.

I did use a poor choice of words about "everything", and yes, GW usually sells an ongoing product range to expand on a game and its models. But the thing is that Legions Imperialis will at least contain enough in the core rule book to get started with the game(even the tokens!). Quite a few of us will be coming into it with models from both Titanicus and Aeronautica, so we've at least got a 30% head start on getting an army together for what is a new(ish) game.

Not bad from just a core rule book.

Also, Epic 40k WAS "everything in the box"

LOL, the models were certainly small enough!

Epic had a lot of overlapping product but I remember one sprue had like 40 dudes, 3 Rhinos and 2 Land Raiders... and was costed so you could get it with a week's pocket money.

Can anyone imagine a kid collecting Epic with today's prices?

I'll be honest, it makes no bones to me. If this game comes and goes in three years I will still have collections of miniatures and I assume NetEpic and the like will still be available

But I want this game to succeed, think Epic is a wonderful scale to experience the 30k/40k universe, and for that it needs people to buy and play the game. Announcing that there is effectively a day-one DLC is way too much 'Electronic Arts' for my liking, and despite what GW think people can detect greed and it will switch them off purchasing. I am not taking about people posting on forums, who would often gladly sacrifice their own grand mothers just to get their hands on a box of minis, but the wider and more casual gaming community who will start seeing the game as too high a buy-in price. I don't think comparisons to 2nd are fair, from memory that core game was around for a while before the expansions came along.

I have read rumours that it will also include Land Raiders, which I surely cannot believe because that would just be too hilarious.

Comparing Electronic Arts to Games Workshop is like comparing a man to an ape : they look alike, but they're not alike.

And sure, invest in what you want. It's your money, your choice. So far we're still waiting for the actual prices to come out because, you know, game is delayed and still not released yet.

I simply remember when I bought epic models at the time the game was still well supported by GW (and I didn't know at that time what was coming after them !), and I can't help but reflect that a player of Legion Imperialis will be in the same condition than me at that time : building a collection piece by piece, expansions and books included, and certainly not having everything all at once from day one. Oh yes, those who start Epic 2nd edition today can enjoy all the rules and expansions released at that time preserved with care on fan community sites and can have the rules "for free"...but they still have to build their own collection nonetheless.

It's not a video game, will never be and rules are just the cherry on top to use our miniatures, don't forget that. And with time, one day, LI will be a "dead game" like the others, and maybe preserved the same way than Mordheim and Epic by their own fan communities. That's the fate of all games, in the end : we play dead games "for free" thanks to the sacrifice of all those players who bought all those expansions "full price" in the past .

I didn't see anyone advocate for GW to dump the entire product line on us in one go and be done with the game. But you can't have the game to go through the exact same paces than in the 90s or even slower (like Necromunda is). You can't retread the same 30 years of development of the lore and setting and model range. You need to figure out how to keep the game interesting with new stuff that is actually new stuff, not by cutting stuff we already have and then drip feeding it back. It's not even hard - plastic Mechanicum would do nicely as an "expansion". Not freakin core units.

Something tells me that this expansion (and its models) wouldn't've been out for months after the initial release, but this game has been pushed back so much that the main release and this expansion are going to crash right into one another. So, it feels more like Day1 DLC than an actual expansion even though I doubt that's what was originally intended.

That said, holding off speeders and bikes for an expansion? That's taking the piss, GW.

 Pacific wrote:
I love how there are a bunch of people here coming back to GW are exclaiming "what on earth is this?!" Meanwhile the guys that came back with Necromunda, horribly scarred, their backs bowed from carrying 9 hardbacks to play a game, respond gruffly as they emerge from a trapdoor "this is how we exist now" : D

I swear the box I own that holds all the gang tactics cards might be the heaviest thing I own outside of my TV and my car.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Epic had a lot of overlapping product but I remember one sprue had like 40 dudes, 3 Rhinos and 2 Land Raiders... and was costed so you could get it with a week's pocket money.

Now we have a box with 4 drop pods. It's priced at a month's wages.

Sarouan wrote:
Comparing Electronic Arts to Games Workshop is like comparing a man to an ape : they look alike, but they're not alike.

EA are professional evil. GW are wannabe evil. Far better to compare them Warner Brothers Interactive.

Boy, I really hope when LI comes out there are some other people here that are excited. This tread is really turning into a downer. :(

Keep in mind that GW is clearly supporting LI strongly. But no matter what they would not be able to have every unit ready when the core set releases. So some units were just going to have to wait until production time or budget was ready. For all we know drop pods and jet bike rules were not ready for when the core was ready to release (or so they thought).

Compare it to X-wing. There are tons of known Star Wars ships but when the core came out there were just something like 8 or 10 IIRC. They knew tons of other ships but did not include all the rules for them. (Larger ships, turrets, mines, etc.). GW only had so much budget for stuff at each release point so they had to pick and choose. Sure Drop Pods are iconic, but they are effectively a unit that does not move. I would rather have Predators in the core set if choices have to be made.

 vadersson wrote:
Boy, I really hope when LI comes out there are some other people here that are excited. This tread is really turning into a downer. :(

Welcome to Dakkadakka. If it can be complained about, you can bet you'll find a complaint about it here.

Let's be real, the release for Epic has been fethed up big time. Whether it was a printing issue or whatever doesn't matter, the fact is they've tried to keep hype up by showing us stuff that wasn't even planned for the original release. We're already seeing the expansion, adding more units. If the choice is 'get everything in one book and then get no support for the game for another decade' or 'get steady flow of expansions that cost more money but show the company supporting the game regularly', I'll take the latter. Releases show interest. Interest gets the company to invest more in their product. More investment means more models, gameplay modes, factions, etc.

This stuff doesn't grow on trees. Frankly, GW's already taking a risk with Epic, thanks to the HEAVY 3rd party and 3d printing market. If you don't like it, then go play net-Epic, you won't miss out and you won't be missed.

Has anyone seen confirmation that the rules for units will or won’t be in the kit boxes?

I had assumed that it would be like Aeronautica and the last page of the instructions would have the detachment card printed on it, and the expansion book would just be a compilation of those.

drbored wrote:
This stuff doesn't grow on trees. Frankly, GW's already taking a risk with Epic, thanks to the HEAVY 3rd party and 3d printing market. If you don't like it, then go play net-Epic, you won't miss out and you won't be missed.

But they will be missed.
If enough people 'don't like it' and choose to stick with net-Epic and 3d printing instead of investing in Legions Imperialis and GW's models, then the game will die off and not get any longer term support.

GW trying to nickel and dime (potential) players for things like Drop Pods, regardless of whether the expansion was intended to release several months after the initial game release or not, will ultimately harm even those who are enthusiasticly willing to to be gouged.

buy the game in sympathy in hope that enough people do it so GW realise by the good sales numbers that they did something wrong and change their releases in future
I don't think that this is going to work
and the only reason it won't work this time is that they are missing the already invested people advertising the game and dragging others in
a sales models based on impulse buying and not thinking too much about that the release being a rip off, only works if people don't get the chance to think about it

PS: and GW somehow already confirmed that they are doing the same with TOW, but I guess that the release there will be without delay, people are going to praise it for how much GW cares about the fans

 kodos wrote:


or people still think that this is just Epic in everything but the name?

It follows exactly the same path as old AT and Space marine (Titans in the HH, then infantry and vehicles, then the rest...), so yes, it is clearly Epic (and it is Epic scale too for God's sake).

 vadersson wrote:
Boy, I really hope when LI comes out there are some other people here that are excited. This tread is really turning into a downer. :(

Keep in mind that GW is clearly supporting LI strongly. But no matter what they would not be able to have every unit ready when the core set releases. So some units were just going to have to wait until production time or budget was ready. For all we know drop pods and jet bike rules were not ready for when the core was ready to release (or so they thought).

Compare it to X-wing. There are tons of known Star Wars ships but when the core came out there were just something like 8 or 10 IIRC. They knew tons of other ships but did not include all the rules for them. (Larger ships, turrets, mines, etc.). GW only had so much budget for stuff at each release point so they had to pick and choose. Sure Drop Pods are iconic, but they are effectively a unit that does not move. I would rather have Predators in the core set if choices have to be made.

Given that the whole product is completely different, it kind of feels like a false equivalency, here (For one thing, X-Wing doesn't need you to buy anything except the core and the mini, because all the rules are there). But to each their own.

 Albertorius wrote:

 vadersson wrote:
Boy, I really hope when LI comes out there are some other people here that are excited. This tread is really turning into a downer. :(

Keep in mind that GW is clearly supporting LI strongly. But no matter what they would not be able to have every unit ready when the core set releases. So some units were just going to have to wait until production time or budget was ready. For all we know drop pods and jet bike rules were not ready for when the core was ready to release (or so they thought).

Compare it to X-wing. There are tons of known Star Wars ships but when the core came out there were just something like 8 or 10 IIRC. They knew tons of other ships but did not include all the rules for them. (Larger ships, turrets, mines, etc.). GW only had so much budget for stuff at each release point so they had to pick and choose. Sure Drop Pods are iconic, but they are effectively a unit that does not move. I would rather have Predators in the core set if choices have to be made.

Given that the whole product is completely different, it kind of feels like a false equivalency, here (For one thing, X-Wing doesn't need you to buy anything except the core and the mini, because all the rules are there). But to each their own.

Yeah, the big difference with X-wing is that the new mechanisms were not locked in additional expensive rule books you had to get, they were provided on handy reference cards included in with the ships they were relevant to.

Necromunda has been a painful experience of endless book releases that gradually invalidate certain parts of older books. The lack of clarity enhanced by the fact that they are incapable of properly proof reading their text so are some of the new books actually replacing old stuff, or is it just more and more new stuff with similar names?

Having a meta-game of "guess the rules today" is not that fun.

necromunda also suffers from it not being made clear which books override which other books

Any indication of a release date/month yet?

Was hoping it to be well before XMAS but I have zero info.

VAYASEN wrote:
Any indication of a release date/month yet?

Was hoping it to be well before XMAS but I have zero info.

Gonna go along the lines of end of October/start of November for pre-orders myself. Don't think GW do big releases around Christmas time as that impacts Christmas Battleforces. That being said, GW do wild things with their delayed products.

To be completely honest, X-wing first edition absolutely had a predatory sales model that forced people to buy ships they didn't need because they came with cards clearly designed for other ships. I'd say the first season of Underworlds tried this too but I have mostly not felt pressured into buying other warbands just for cards since then.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
To be completely honest, X-wing first edition absolutely had a predatory sales model that forced people to buy ships they didn't need because they came with cards clearly designed for other ships. I'd say the first season of Underworlds tried this too but I have mostly not felt pressured into buying other warbands just for cards since then.

net result of that locally was people playing it and not caring if you had the actual bit of car, just that what you had written down was correct

 Lord Damocles wrote:

drbored wrote:
This stuff doesn't grow on trees. Frankly, GW's already taking a risk with Epic, thanks to the HEAVY 3rd party and 3d printing market. If you don't like it, then go play net-Epic, you won't miss out and you won't be missed.

But they will be missed.
If enough people 'don't like it' and choose to stick with net-Epic and 3d printing instead of investing in Legions Imperialis and GW's models, then the game will die off and not get any longer term support.

GW trying to nickel and dime (potential) players for things like Drop Pods, regardless of whether the expansion was intended to release several months after the initial game release or not, will ultimately harm even those who are enthusiasticly willing to to be gouged.

Bet you 100 to 1 that people will play this far more than net epic, just like people play new necromunda way more than old necro, or new BB than old BB.