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stratigo wrote:
Bet you 100 to 1 that people will play this far more than net epic, just like people play new necromunda way more than old necro, or new BB than old BB.

I'd like to see a side proof with that assertment, please. Because over here it's very much false. I've seen some people, not many, playing Nucromunda, but no one whatsoever playing new BB. And here in Madrid there's at least a BB tournament each month, for 50 participants.

At the end of the day, though, it doesn't matter much if you only play with friends.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
To be completely honest, X-wing first edition absolutely had a predatory sales model that forced people to buy ships they didn't need because they came with cards clearly designed for other ships. I'd say the first season of Underworlds tried this too but I have mostly not felt pressured into buying other warbands just for cards since then.

Honestly, in X-Wing's case that was really only an issue for the tournament players. For us casuals, we just bought all the ships anyways . Or you'd get a needed card off e-bay if you didn't want the ship it came with for some reason.

What really hurt X-Wing was when 2.0 rolled around and rather than buying that cardboard over time in small blocks, you had to buy it in one big, expensive lump. That stung. Though honestly, it was cheaper than buying one of GW's Codexes...

vadersson wrote:Boy, I really hope when LI comes out there are some other people here that are excited. This tread is really turning into a downer. :(

Don't worry, the Hype will come back once it is finally previewed on one Sunday to be on pre-order next week. The delay frustrates a lot of people so far, that's all.

stratigo wrote:
Bet you 100 to 1 that people will play this far more than net epic, just like people play new necromunda way more than old necro, or new BB than old BB.

Easy bet. You forgot AI in your list, by the way.

Sarouan wrote:


You can find it cute, but I find it funny you try to build an outrage out of the most natural thing in miniature game industry : they never release everything all at once. Because it's a nightmare in logistics first and also because players crave for new content : if everything is at their disposal right from the beginning, what new can be added ? That's why we have all these old games called "dead" : that's when nothing more is added to them. They are truly "complete". But the reason they are is because all these years of expansions, miniatures and rules being added during that journey 'till they stopped being supported. It's really a fascinating and ironic cycle, really ; most of their player base tend to leave when support ends (and thus "everything" is there), because they see it as meaningless to keep playing and investing in what they call "a dead game with no new stuff to come".

But we are wargamers - wargames are characterised by having complete lists in supplements or rulebooks. Even for Epic we got complete lists with each iteration. It is an aberration for GW not too.

than GW does not make wargames for a very long time now

The_Real_Chris wrote:

Sarouan wrote:


You can find it cute, but I find it funny you try to build an outrage out of the most natural thing in miniature game industry : they never release everything all at once. Because it's a nightmare in logistics first and also because players crave for new content : if everything is at their disposal right from the beginning, what new can be added ? That's why we have all these old games called "dead" : that's when nothing more is added to them. They are truly "complete". But the reason they are is because all these years of expansions, miniatures and rules being added during that journey 'till they stopped being supported. It's really a fascinating and ironic cycle, really ; most of their player base tend to leave when support ends (and thus "everything" is there), because they see it as meaningless to keep playing and investing in what they call "a dead game with no new stuff to come".

But we are wargamers - wargames are characterised by having complete lists in supplements or rulebooks. Even for Epic we got complete lists with each iteration. It is an aberration for GW not too.

Thats not even remotely true. Some wargames have that, many do not.

It actually depends of what you consider "complete", but that's a way bigger debate than just LI or even GW.

Basically, you play the game with what you have at the time you play, not what you may have in the future. Would have it been great to have all units GW intended to release for LI from beginning to end ? Yes, sure. But that has a double edged sword : first people would not be happy to have all these miniatures at release (there's no miracle, here, GW is unable to do that even if they wanted to unless they do nothing but produce LI only for a while - and 40k and AoS players would then complain on their own) and second people would know there would be no more new miniature outside of that and once they released everything, players would complain the game is "dead" or has "no love from GW" (yeah, that's what happened with Specialist Games where they were in that weird limbo "still sold but nothing new to come ever"). Unless they release something that sparks interest for these games with...you guessed it, expansions.

Also, remember that time with Warhammer Battle releasing "complete army books" but with miniatures never released for some profiles ? It turned out so good for GW, with people simply having to use other miniatures to play them (and at that time, 3D sculpting / printing wasn't that advanced as today, with 3D sculptors litterally able to release a faithful miniature to the artwork in a matter of mere days).

It's a snake eating its own tail, with always someone complaining in the end no matter what is done.

 Albertorius wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Bet you 100 to 1 that people will play this far more than net epic, just like people play new necromunda way more than old necro, or new BB than old BB.

I'd like to see a side proof with that assertment, please. Because over here it's very much false. I've seen some people, not many, playing Nucromunda, but no one whatsoever playing new BB. And here in Madrid there's at least a BB tournament each month, for 50 participants.

At the end of the day, though, it doesn't matter much if you only play with friends.

Yes I agree. I'm going to give the new game a go, hopefully the local club will get a load more players in giving Epic a go. If GW continue to go OTT with too many books and rules which start to resemble the Dead Sea Scrolls, I'm sure NetEpic or Armageddon will be appealing to them, especially with the prospect of alien races.

As for Blood Bowl, you can write down the meaningful differences between old and new versions on the back of a cigarette packet, so it doesn't really matter which version people are playing!

Pacific wrote: As for Blood Bowl, you can write down the meaningful differences between old and new versions on the back of a cigarette packet, so it doesn't really matter which version people are playing!

*Hugs his Star Players and Compendium book*

Hush children, hush. The man on the Internet can’t hurt you with his words!

But I agree with stratigo that whilst I don’t doubt having shiny models readily available on shelf, and presumably an influx of new blood will see more folks pick up NetEpic (particularly for Xenos), it’s still going to be niche once the game is out.

Simply because that’s Consumer Nature. When the “Real McCoy” is still on shelves, why would most want to play an unofficial version?

I can only advocate for Live And Let Live. Anyone especially invested in either take on the game achieves nothing by being all weird and puritan about their preference.

I could even make the argument that the NetEpic crowd may have a vested interest in buying Imperialis models, if only because the better it sells, the greater the chance we’ll see the ruleset expanded to what Epic once was, providing models and players for fans of older editions.

Remember Folks, gatekeeping* achieves nothing other than making you look like an Internet Weirdo!

*Not considering anyone in this thread to be gatekeeping, or even coming close.

Played a 40k Epic (Space Marine 2nd ed) game vs a friend who had never played it before at the weekend (still got Space Marine, IG and Eldar Armies) just to give him a taster and to see if he might like the idea of getting into IL.

He won...so he might get it haha.

Sarouan wrote:
You can find it cute, but I find it funny you try to build an outrage out of the most natural thing in miniature game industry : they never release everything all at once.

But the rules for everything?

It's not as if the upcoming Space Marine Codex is just missing the Assault Terminator entry because the new models aren't ready yet. It's still in the book.

Leaving parts of a single army out is different to staggered releases.

Primaris marines weren't in my 4th through 7th edition Space Marine codecies, ergo GW did not release the rules for everything at once. You can look at it on a smaller scale too, Space Marine Hunter/Stalkers were added when, 7th edition? They weren't in the codex the edition prior - again, GW did not release the rules for everything all at once.

The idea that thats a requirement or how wargames traditionally operate is myth.

"Things that did not exist yet weren't included in earlier rule!" is about as bad an argument as one can get. Seriously: What were you even attempting to argue there?

This isn't GW inventing new units for Marines and releasing rules for them later down the line. This is GW taking the Marine army list and splitting up into different books. How do you not get that?

Imagine if Hive War, the Tyranid expansion for Epic, had come out, but it had left out things that did exist (say, Carnifexes and Genestealers Broods), and then released their rules in a later supplement.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

drbored wrote:
This stuff doesn't grow on trees. Frankly, GW's already taking a risk with Epic, thanks to the HEAVY 3rd party and 3d printing market. If you don't like it, then go play net-Epic, you won't miss out and you won't be missed.

But they will be missed.
If enough people 'don't like it' and choose to stick with net-Epic and 3d printing instead of investing in Legions Imperialis and GW's models, then the game will die off and not get any longer term support.

GW trying to nickel and dime (potential) players for things like Drop Pods, regardless of whether the expansion was intended to release several months after the initial game release or not, will ultimately harm even those who are enthusiasticly willing to to be gouged.

Thing is, those that know about and can source net-epic, and the older players that remember old epic, are MUCH FEWER in number than those that would see the game for the first time via warcom and give it a try.

I think there's a tendency to think that because the current fans don't like something, it shows GW being stupid... GW doesn't market things to older players. They market them to new players, because the cycle of recruiting new players keeps the company in business. Do they make games that cater to a niche audience? Yep. But what do you think happened with Warhammer 30k when it got it's 2nd edition? The market was flooded with new players and new interest, so much so that older players started trying to 'gatekeep' and all those dumb-as-feth arguments started popping up. Same thing will happen with Epic. The older players that have already decided not to buy into the new game aren't who GW is making this game for.

I guess there will always be consumers that were fine with companies like BMW that were planning to charge a subscription model for the heating systems in the car to work, just as there will be those who find that practice abhorrent and instead go to a competitor - not saying what GW is doing is even 1% as bad as that, but there is a sliding scale of how much milking of the cow/greed companies partake in, and to which we find unacceptable and tap out.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Pacific wrote: As for Blood Bowl, you can write down the meaningful differences between old and new versions on the back of a cigarette packet, so it doesn't really matter which version people are playing!

*Hugs his Star Players and Compendium book*

Hush children, hush. The man on the Internet can’t hurt you with his words!
Simply because that’s Consumer Nature. When the “Real McCoy” is still on shelves, why would most want to play an unofficial version?

Remember Folks, gatekeeping* achieves nothing other than making you look like an Internet Weirdo!
.

I don't view previous versions of the game as unofficial, but almost as previously released albums that you might still want to listen to, or a different flavour of the same thing. There will be players who love 2nd edition/NetEpic, Armageddon, Epic 40k or soon Legions, because they each offer a different flavour and gaming experience. And the great thing is you can have the same collection of minis and use them for all of them.

We ran a mega battle designed as an intro game using the 2nd edition rules, because the game is so simple to learn, uncluttered and fast to play, it was the right system to use. Armageddon is super popular in tournaments because of the strategic agency it gives to the player and the balance has been fine-tunes to a razor edge by the tournament community over the past decade. I am sure Legions will offer something else again, it's looking like a detailed replication of the Heresy setting, and something similar to 1st edition, where players can really get drawn into the detail. And of course the massive draw here is going to be the ubiquity of the new system, availability of the new miniatures and popularity of the system.
100% agree on the gatekeeping aspect, ultimately I just think 'Epic' is such a great scale for wargaming, it has given me such enjoyment over the years and I want as many people as possible to experience that - I've gone to some effort in maintaining the new player guide to Epic, participating in the community and organising events to get people playing, and I'll continue to do that when LI is released.

PS - on BB, I should have clarified that I was referring to the basic mechanics/structure of the game. I know a lot of bells and whistles have been added in the new edition, but the base structure of the rules would be immediately apparent to anyone who had only played Jervis Johnson's game back in the 90s. Contrast with something like Necromunda, which has some significant structural changes (with areas like turn order and close combat etc)

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
You can find it cute, but I find it funny you try to build an outrage out of the most natural thing in miniature game industry : they never release everything all at once.

But the rules for everything?

It's not as if the upcoming Space Marine Codex is just missing the Assault Terminator entry because the new models aren't ready yet. It's still in the book.

Leaving parts of a single army out is different to staggered releases.

Yeah, I mean... drop pods are a bit egregious. For starters, you don't really need minis for them, but it's also the fact that it's a very, VERY iconic thing for Warhammer Space Marines, you know? Hell, it was "their special thing" in Epic, the fact that they could all get in reserves and deploy via drop pod even if the scenario specifically didn't allow it...

Kinda like having a Halo ODST army and not having drop rules, you know?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pacific wrote:
I don't view previous versions of the game as unofficial, but almost as previously released albums that you might still want to listen to, or a different flavour of the same thing. There will be players who love 2nd edition/NetEpic, Armageddon, Epic 40k or soon Legions, because they each offer a different flavour and gaming experience. And the great thing is you can have the same collection of minis and use them for all of them.

Yeah, I might prefer one or the other, but I have no problem playing any other, as long as I have the minis xD.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Primaris marines weren't in my 4th through 7th edition Space Marine codecies, ergo GW did not release the rules for everything at once. You can look at it on a smaller scale too, Space Marine Hunter/Stalkers were added when, 7th edition? They weren't in the codex the edition prior - again, GW did not release the rules for everything all at once.

The idea that thats a requirement or how wargames traditionally operate is myth.

There is a huge difference to having a game add new units as it naturally progresses, to what they have done here which is to leave out the basic rules for an iconic space marine unit that they knew would be released only weeks after the rulebook (should have been) released.

Drop pods were one of the first units shown in the trailer for the game.

There is no issue in releasing book spam if the content is quality. Its not like there isn't a huge universe and a million ideas that could be turned into a new exciting campaign book to keep the game going. Taking simple unit profiles and forcing players to buy a 2nd book mere weeks after the intended release shows they didn't have enough quality to put into a new book so soon, so are using these piecemeal tactics to force more sales.

I doubt very are very few people here that would be hesitant to buy new books to support the game, if the content was actually worth it.

I suspect we will very quickly see a fan made compendium of rules and army lists just days after the actual release.

 Albertorius wrote:
I'd like to see a side proof with that assertment, please.

You won't get one, but the assumption that more people play systems with widespread, and I do mean widespread availability of miniatures and rules over a niche rules only system that requires you to source physical components yourself isn't exactly unreasonable.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
I'd like to see a side proof with that assertment, please.

You won't get one, but the assumption that more people play systems with widespread, and I do mean widespread availability of miniatures and rules over a niche rules only system that requires you to source physical components yourself isn't exactly unreasonable.

And still, the local empiric evidence and tournament scene is that people use the minis, but not the games.

Of course, it helps that GW did an even worse job with the translations, doing a very, very minimal translation and adding it to the main box as a handout... people simply decided that it that was the level at what the localized support was gonna be, they might as well keep doing what they already were.

I don't expect LI to get very popular here if they do the same.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Things that did not exist yet weren't included in earlier rule!" is about as bad an argument as one can get. Seriously: What were you even attempting to argue there?

This isn't GW inventing new units for Marines and releasing rules for them later down the line. This is GW taking the Marine army list and splitting up into different books. How do you not get that?

Imagine if Hive War, the Tyranid expansion for Epic, had come out, but it had left out things that did exist (say, Carnifexes and Genestealers Broods), and then released their rules in a later supplement.

Scroll back to one of my previous comments where I explain that things are often cut in development and moved to expansions as a result of page count limitations or it not fitting within the context of a minimum viable product, etc. In this case, it would seem that the launch set comes with a single rulebook which contains all the core rules + basic army lists for the Astartes and Solar Auxilia. Its not unreasonable to assume that they opted to go with a 2-faction launch over having just astartes in the box with a more comprehensive and better developed army list, and chose to move the cut content to a separate book as an expansion. I'm sure there was also a good amount of page count chewed up by the need to include the necessary rules for all the stuff that already exists via Adeptus Titanicus and Aeronatuica Imperialis, which is the type of content that would usually feature in an expansion rather than in a core game. Before you go on about how they could just make the book bigger, let me pre-empt you to say that they are releasing a product, not a ruleset. Page count goes hand-in-hand with the price point of the box set and the size of the box it comes in. GW knows the audiene for the product and how much money they can reasonably extort out of them for said product, that becomes the primary constraint in the design of the product and what you get in it.

As for "not existing yet" - we know from various insider statements that the design studio works years ahead of the production and release schedule and that when they are working on an update for any given faction or game many things are concepted and developed to some extent before being cut and shelved to be picked back up again in the future. Some of the Primaris marines we are getting now are things that they likely started working on ~3 editions ago. IE - They existed, you just didn't know it, but GW knew it and they had a choice to make as to whether or not they would include rules for them or not.

Also on the same vein, while drop pods and jetbikes exist in 28mm scale, nothing yet existed in epic scale outside of titans and flyers, so to say its rules for something which already exists which is owed to you isn't really accurate. Acting like you are owed rules for something because it exists in another game at another scale is childish. Your perspective on this is also pretty off - they are giving you rules for flyers, titans, knights, space marines, and solar auxilia on launch, which is actually quite a bit. Would you still be reacting this way if they had only given you rules for astartes in the book, and then sold you the rest as expansions? I'm inclined to think no - I don't see you complaining about the absence of mechanicum or custodes rules, for example, even though the mechanicum and custodes army list is something that "exists" in 28mm scale and which we all know will no doubt be released for LI in future expansions.

In fact, the whole damned thing is silly and just forced controversy and outrage. We had a pretty solid leak of what units were contained in the launch book for a few months now - we knew there were no drop pods or jetbikes in it, likewise we know that there are no stormhammers or what-have-you in the solar auxilia list. This wasn't a secret, there were a couple pages of discussion where almost every single one of you guys commented about the absence of certain units. You knew. It was obvious that these things would all come in a future expansion, it was even suggested and discussed as well. You knew. Now that you have confirmation that the expansion you all knew and expected to be coming is actually comign you're all clutching at your pearls and throwing a tantrum.

Please.

chaos0xomega wrote:
In fact, the whole damned thing is silly and just forced controversy and outrage. We had a pretty solid leak of what units were contained in the launch book for a few months now - we knew there were no drop pods or jetbikes in it, likewise we know that there are no stormhammers or what-have-you in the solar auxilia list. This wasn't a secret, there were a couple pages of discussion where almost every single one of you guys commented about the absence of certain units. You knew. It was obvious that these things would all come in a future expansion, it was even suggested and discussed as well. You knew. Now that you have confirmation that the expansion you all knew and expected to be coming is actually comign you're all clutching at your pearls and throwing a tantrum.

Please.

I don't think people expected to have to buy a campaign book to use staple units. They expected that there could be an expansion book for a new army, not that every time they release a few new marine models they likely have to buy a campaign book to field it.

Yes the contents was out in the wild, no that doesn't excuse deliberately excluding units rules that would have been greenlit for production from being included and charged for independently.

Now it's possible the rules do also get a free distribution, but that sort of thinking leads to "forced controversy" when it's proven wrong.

We've now reached the point where knowing about a problem apparently should preclude complaining about said problem. Noice.

Dudeface wrote:

I don't think people expected to have to buy a campaign book to use staple units.

so people expected GW to make things different "this time" because of what?

they did not even promise to make it different "this time" unlike with 40k, so why are people expecting this old SG game re-released being different to Necromunda?
because Necromunda does not sell well so GW needs a different business model?

 Albertorius wrote:

And still, the local empiric evidence and tournament scene is that people use the minis, but not the games.

"Local evidence" is nice and all, but only apply to local. Of course a local strong fan community pushing for old edition games and being very active will be inspiring more people to join them. But that's just a drop in the ocean in comparison to GW shops / affiliated clubs making demo games for the new release worldwide.

People play the last official game edition because it's the one that's sold and easily available everywhere, and moreover they have greater chances to find fellow players to play with them. That's how we all started, after all. And that's how an undeterminate number of new players will start as well with LI.

This is an assumption, sure, but a very logical one based on past experiences with GW (and also other companies) 's neverending cycle of new editions. Exceptions will always exist, obviously, but never forget they are exceptions.

I don't expect LI to get very popular here if they do the same.

It doesn't have to be popular in your area, just sold according to GW expectations worldwide. People enjoy what they want to enjoy, in the end.

I don't think people expected to have to buy a campaign book to use staple units. They expected that there could be an expansion book for a new army, not that every time they release a few new marine models they likely have to buy a campaign book to field it.

First : we don't know the full content of said expansion book. Maybe there's more than just "a few new marines models"
Second : we don't know when it will be available (nor when the said units will be, for that matter - some seem to assume everything will be released at the same time, but there's absolutely no guarantee nor GW confirmation that will be the case)
Third : just look at what GW did in the past. They exactly did that. Look at their "end of edition" campaign books for 40k and AoS. They also did it with Warhammer Battle (End Times did release new units that you could only play by buying the "campaign books" - and woe on you because they were limited and plenty of people weren't even able to get them ). Hell, even with old editions of Epic they did that by releasing profiles for new units in the White Dwarf (it wasn't free in the past, mind you).

So sure, you can always expect a full new army with every expansion book. But acting like it's a "new thing" ? Now you're not believable.


Would it have been better to have these poor drop pods and jetbikes in the core rule ? Yes. Is it worth to build an outrage out of it ? Not really.

Otherwise, just wait for LI to be a dead game and have some angel fan player to upload all the rules ever edited "for free" on the internet to have your complete edition. Just need to wait for an unknown number of years for that to happen, but hey we are already waiting so far so why not "a bit more" ?

It’s not about outrage. It’s about trying to communicate to GW that their customers don’t like this approach because it feels underhanded, and is detrimental to people actually being able to play the game efficiently.

 Flinty wrote:
It’s not about outrage. It’s about trying to communicate to GW that their customers don’t like this approach because it feels underhanded, and is detrimental to people actually being able to play the game efficiently.

Ha, "efficiently" ! As if people were using these big books to efficiently build their list.

It's just a niche game, it's not even meant for tournaments that one. I'll tell you, when the expansion book will be out, I'm very sure actual players of LI will find a very efficient way to build their army list.

It's called "the internet".

Let's be honest, these rules will be uploaded there in no time and it will be just a matter of using a smartphone / a printer and you'll have your "efficient way to play the game". If an army builder app doesn't exist / is made by fans meanwhile...or plainly just having the rules in the miniature boxes themselves. Hell, for what I know, it could even be on Warhammer Community as download like they did recently for AoS.

That's why I believe it's not worth it to build an outrage out of that right now, when the core game is (still !!) not released yet, not even talking about expansion material. You're just using a tiny sentence in previewed pages of the White Dwarf as source for all of this !

Horus Heresy fans did fine for the first 15 years of that games existence, what with everything coming out slowly over the course of about 15 books (including red books) over the course of a decade. Hell, you had to wait years before you had the ability to really be able to play certain legions, and heres a short list of things that "existed" which didn't have rules until well after the first book dropped:

Mortis Dreadnoughts (both castaferrum and contemptor)
Tarantual Sentry Guns
Lightning Strike Fighters
Deathstorm Drop Pods
Dreadnought Drop Pods
Avenger Strike Fighters
Storm Eagles
Arvus Lighters
Vindicators
Quad Launchers

Didn't see a lot of complaints back then. Y'all are entitled.

My dude, when Dudeface thinks a grievance against GW is valid, it's time to stop defending them

 lord_blackfang wrote:
My dude, when Dudeface thinks a grievance against GW is valid, it's time to stop defending them

I know right!

To those taking issue, it's almost like GW pumped out cheaper/easy access rules for other smaller games like kill team, warcry and horus heresy, then compiled them into a book after a year. Can't be expecting that now can we! That would almost make sense and be consumer friendly.

Given the Epic community's large variety of 3rd party and printable files for various units, it seems like GW is holding back rules until plastic kits are ready to release in the hopes that people will get the new rules and the new kits when they release instead of getting all the rules up front, printer goes brr, and not bother to buy the kits when they come out.