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gak can get ruined, such is SI and Ms. Marvel. As for "The Marvels", personally I haven't cared about a single Marvel Universe product since the Avengers, and not even End Game, so meh. But Ms. Marvel did bomb on D+ and recent Disney showings have all been flaccid, reportedly due to the direction the stories are taking. I fail to see how The Marvels will change that fact.

 AduroT wrote:
Iron Man wasn’t a household name before his movie either.

Thats not even remotely true. I'm 34 at the end of the month. I dressed up as Iron Man for Halloween as a 7 year old kid in the 90s and I was never really that into comics. He was pretty widely known and popular courtesy of the 90s cartoon series that it seems most kids of a certain age in the US at least grew up watching on saturday mornings, likewise his presence in a number of video games of the era (Marvel v Capcom especially) made him pretty widely known. Hell, Ozzy Osbourne wrote a song about him in the flippin' 70s (thats a joke - it wasn't actually written about him and Ozzy supposedly was unaware of the existence of the comic book character at the time).

chaos0xomega wrote:
Hell, Ozzy Osbourne wrote a song about him in the flippin' 70s (thats a joke - it wasn't actually written about him and Ozzy supposedly was unaware of the existence of the comic book character at the time).

True, but I knew a LOT of 80s/90s kids who thought it was.

The barrier for Iron Man was more that comic books were across the nerd divide for general audiences for most of last century. Not that he wasn't a popular comic book character.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
She’s featured heavily in the comics series...

A incredibly small fraction of the population read comics.

 AduroT wrote:
... headlined a video game...

A failed Live Service game that was eventually put out of its misery, and not something that was ever mainstream (and it was an Avengers game, sold on the popularity of the movies and the characters people already knew). And the game was awful.

 AduroT wrote:
... and had her own D+ series.

Reportedly one of the lowest watched shows on D+, and D+ shows don't get a fraction of the viewers compared to the movies.

 AduroT wrote:
If you don’t know who she is...

... then you are the majority of the people who might go and see this film.

Get out of the bubble man. What we know isn't what most people know. We do not represent general movie-going audiences.

Sooooooo… They’re only supposed to make movies with characters from already popular movies? Can’t add any from comics or games or even their own series? That’s going to be kind of limiting.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
Iron Man wasn’t a household name before his movie either.

Thats not even remotely true. I'm 34 at the end of the month. I dressed up as Iron Man for Halloween as a 7 year old kid in the 90s and I was never really that into comics. He was pretty widely known and popular courtesy of the 90s cartoon series that it seems most kids of a certain age in the US at least grew up watching on saturday mornings, likewise his presence in a number of video games of the era (Marvel v Capcom especially) made him pretty widely known. Hell, Ozzy Osbourne wrote a song about him in the flippin' 70s (thats a joke - it wasn't actually written about him and Ozzy supposedly was unaware of the existence of the comic book character at the time).

As someone who isn't into comics the larger part of Marvel characters was unknown to me. Basically if it wasn't on a screen, I didn't know it. I played a Captain America video game in the late 80s or early 90s. Hulk had a live action show. Maybe a cartoon, too. I don't remember. Spiderman was the big superhero cartoon back then, so plenty of exposure to him. I can't say about a standalone show for Iron Man or Thor, but they definitely had guest appearances in other shows. I'm inclined to agree that if you watched cartoons in the 90s, you'd know all the big characters. Add the Fantastic Four and the Thomas Jane Punisher for me, and that's about the extent of my knowledge of Marvel until the MCU got past its initial movies and started introducing less mainstream heroes.

As for Ms. Marvel, my first exposure to her was her show. Don't get me wrong, I like the show and the character, but prior to that I hadn't the faintest idea that she even existed. Even afterwards, when I saw the Crisis Protocol model, I was confused that it showed stretchy powers instead of sparkly powers. I may or may not be representative, but I have a hard time believing that she was anything but obscure prior to her first MCU outing.

 AduroT wrote:
Sooooooo… They’re only supposed to make movies with characters from already popular movies? Can’t add any from comics or games or even their own series? That’s going to be kind of limiting.

I'm with you when it comes to broadening the selection of superheroes we get to see. But how to put this. You know how one of Star Wars' strengths, regardless of any sneering at Star Wars Street, is that it has recurring characters and fan favorites who give it a known and loved face even if it introduces or focuses on new characters? It feels like that was a big strength of the MCU during its early run but was not meant to be a lasting feature.

Let's look at the heroes from the first Avengers movie. Tony is dead. Natasha is dead. Maria is dead. Steve is Joe Biden now. Bruce is reduced to She-Hulk's origin story. Thor got a standalone movie recently, but doesn't appear alongside other heroes anymore. Clint is the same with his own show. Fury is still active (you can't kill that melon-fether), and that's about it.

More often than not, shows and movies now are new guys who may get some help from second generation heroes. The big ones that got the ball rolling are almost all gone. I don't think it's wrong to lament the absence of the big names and attribute some of the waning interest in the MCU to that. It's not limited to just that, of course, but as a contributing factor I'd say it's a pretty big one.

 AduroT wrote:
Sooooooo… They’re only supposed to make movies with characters from already popular movies?

Never said that.

 AduroT wrote:
Can’t add any from comics or games or even their own series?

Never said that either.

No Way Home. Really good.
Black Widow. Sucked.
Dr. Strange 2. Passable.
Wakanda Forever. Sucked.
Thor 4. Super sucked.
Guardians 3. Passable.

After one good movie, and two that were passable (the D+ shows leave a lot to be desired) I’m over it. I probably won’t even watch this on D+.
Until they start actually making good movies again, I’m skipping most of the MCU these days.

 Geifer wrote:

Spiderman was the big superhero cartoon back then, so plenty of exposure to him.

Iron Man appeared in an episode of the Spiderman cartoon

You can argue about exactly how much public awareness there was about Iron Man, but there's no question he was a C-tier Marvel character at best. That's why they still had his rights. He was also kind of an unlikeable, womanizing alcoholic before RDJ.

People say that Marvel aced the comic book fidelity component, but they actually redefined some of the characters quite a bit for the films. Most movie goers just didn't know it. There was some Disneyification going on there even before Disney.

 gorgon wrote:

People say that Marvel aced the comic book fidelity component, but they actually redefined some of the characters quite a bit for the films. Most movie goers just didn't know it. There was some Disneyification going on there even before Disney.

The MCU is pretty heavily built upon removing the Mark Millar from Ultimates.

I don't think I would say Iron Man was C tier but a solid B. Sure he wasn't as well known as Spider-Man, Hulk or Captain America but he was an original Avenger and made appearances in animated series, even had his own in the 90s, as well as an appearance on The Incredible Hulk.

It isn't like he is ROM: Space Knight.

On Iron Man?

Pre-2008, I reckon quite a few folk would’ve heard of him. But damn few could’ve told you anything about the character and his adventures and powers.

Yeah, thats a fair assessment. I don't know that "Tony Stark" was a name that I was necessarily aware of for example, or what his personality was or his backstory is or anything like that. I just knew that there was a character named Iron Man who occasionally teamed up with Spiderman, Captain America, and the X-Men who wore a suit of red and gold bulletproof armor that could fly and shoot blasts of energy from its hands. That was about the extent of it. That is the extent of what most people knew, and that was probably enough to justify my point and position.

See though, I was a bit nerdier than the other kids, so I also knew - courtesy of having watched the cartoon series - that Iron Man had a cooler more badass friend named Warmachine, who wore a similar suit that was colored black and silver, and which had a cannon and a rocket launcher mounted on its shoulders. So when we were all playing pretend down in the park and the other kids were fighting over who got to be who (and there was always a fight over who got to be Iron Man, Captain America, and Spiderman. Always.) I would always be like "Im Warmachine." and they'd all be like "who" and I'd explain it and sometimes they'd accuse me of making it up, and sometimes they'd be cool with it or id have a trading card of him to show them for proof or whatever. But Iron Man? Everyone knew who he was...

and then I discovered the Punisher. XD

 Ghool wrote:
I probably won’t even watch this on D+.
Until they start actually making good movies again, I’m skipping most of the MCU these days.

I'm not bothering with this one at the cinema, and I cancelled my D+ subscription yesterday.

I canceled mine when they raised the price…



…yarrrrr.

I first heard of Iron Man from How to Draw (less popular) Comics the Marvel Way. The second time I heard about him was from comics nerds calling him a douche due to some crossover. Third time was the movie.

I heard of Kamala Khan/Ms. Marvel from the internet backlash over her existence. The second time I heard of her was some backlash over a new female character who was forced and unnecesssry, unlike that Kamala Khan. Third was the TV show.

 AduroT wrote:
I canceled mine when they raised the price…



…yarrrrr.

I’m doing the same. They jumped the price by 25% per month.
And then they try and sell me on an annual membership at a 15% discount over monthly.
So if pay for a whole year up front, it only costs me 10% more per month?
Yeah no thanks.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On Iron Man?

Pre-2008, I reckon quite a few folk would’ve heard of him. But damn few could’ve told you anything about the character and his adventures and powers.

Thus B tier, not A tier like Spidey; he wasn't familiar but he was known. There is a reason why he was picked to try and have an animated series when Spidey and X-Men were popular cartoons in the 90s as well as why he ended up getting a movie. He was just well enough known that they kept pushing to try and get him from B to A, unlike many many other comic characters.

 AduroT wrote:
I canceled mine when they raised the price…



…yarrrrr.

What's a pirate's favorite letter?

'Tis the C!

And yeah, they're about to put their prices up again, and my subscription will run out just after Loki 2 is done, and beyond that I don't care.

SW has been utterly ruined by Disney, even going to far as to basically murder some of my fav characters in that slow-as-molasses boring Ahsoka show. And the MCU is on life-support, with all but a few D+ MCU shows being total garbage (or just slow, boring and devoid of any real plot). The MCU is salvageable, or I think it is at least, but it's going to take a whole lot of effort to get it back on track.

And now there's talk of Marvel bringing RDJ and ScarJo back from the dead. If that's happening, then we know it's over...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

And now there's talk of Marvel bringing RDJ and ScarJo back from the dead. If that's happening, then we know it's over...

“Multiverse is stupid" -- Kyle

They put no stakes in writin', I got no stakes in watchin'

Time travel beat the multiverse to it.

Honestly. Who do Disney think they are. Resurrecting dead characters. ThAt NeVeR hApPeNs In ThE cOmIcS.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Honestly. Who do Disney think they are. Resurrecting dead characters. ThAt NeVeR hApPeNs In ThE cOmIcS.

Comic sales are even more.F L A C C I D than Disney's viewership these days, I hope.they keep learning from failures so both can just end themselves already

Bet you’re fun at parties.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


And now there's talk of Marvel bringing RDJ and ScarJo back from the dead. If that's happening, then we know it's over...

It would be true to the source material though. Nobody killed in comic books ever truly dies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lcmiracle wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

And now there's talk of Marvel bringing RDJ and ScarJo back from the dead. If that's happening, then we know it's over...

“Multiverse is stupid" -- Kyle

They put no stakes in writin', I got no stakes in watchin'

Yep. Multiverses and time travel concepts kill almost everything they touch in fiction. Not a fan.

 Ahtman wrote:
I don't think I would say Iron Man was C tier but a solid B. Sure he wasn't as well known as Spider-Man, Hulk or Captain America but he was an original Avenger and made appearances in animated series, even had his own in the 90s, as well as an appearance on The Incredible Hulk.

It isn't like he is ROM: Space Knight.

When the first Ironman came out people thought the character was a robot.

General populous wise, people were more familiar with the song than the character.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Yep. Multiverses and time travel concepts kill almost everything they touch in fiction. Not a fan.

Yep even stories built around time travel normally run into problems when the internal logic is played out to its full.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Honestly. Who do Disney think they are. Resurrecting dead characters. ThAt NeVeR hApPeNs In ThE cOmIcS.

Why must you be so uncharacteristically clueless about this in this thread? The comics are not the movies. Never have been. And what works in the comics doesn't always (if rarely ever) work in movies.

General audiences will be far less forgiving about constantly returning characters.

Says who though?

What previous examples are you basing that somewhat bold claim on?