Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Hellebore wrote:
It doesn't look at all ridiculous that they were considered traitors for 10,000 years and then lion el'plot Wang flops around and presto they weren't traitors all along.

No matter how you spin it, the retcon stink won't go away. It just screams contrivance.

They WERE traitors, but for whatever reason the Lion deemed them worthy of redemption. Bit of a difference there.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
It doesn't look at all ridiculous that they were considered traitors for 10,000 years and then lion el'plot Wang flops around and presto they weren't traitors all along.

Some of the Fallen weren't active traitors, but misled by those in charge. Not every Fallen seems to be getting the opportunity to become Risen - and we don't have any idea what proportion are just getting dead'd, and who are getting Forgiven - and as far as I recall it was said as far back as the original Angels of Death codex that a good chunk in the Fallen were misled by Luther et al into believing that the Lion was the traitor, not Luther.

I wouldn't describe this as a retcon, but another progression of the storyline. Whether that's a good thing or not is, of course, going to be down to the individual.

The HH has plenty of examples of marines being censured and executed by association for far less than aiding chaos in commandeering their Homeworld...

I'm just baffled that the fluff blurb in the article makes it out like the Companions are some mute weirdos who stalk people and their victims are somehow super chill about it. I hope that's just the article being brief and casual.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
It doesn't look at all ridiculous that they were considered traitors for 10,000 years and then lion el'plot Wang flops around and presto they weren't traitors all along.

No matter how you spin it, the retcon stink won't go away. It just screams contrivance.

They WERE traitors, but for whatever reason the Lion deemed them worthy of redemption. Bit of a difference there.

Because we all know how flip floppy siding with chaos is especially by accident, and how it's just a whoopsy and you're cured of any chaotic taint.

It's not like fighting AGAINST chaos gets you painted with the purge me sign or anything. Definitely can see how actively aiding chaos in fighting the imperium in no way shows a flawed character or dangerous vulnerability that no one would risk ignoring.

Nope, space marines all just accidented their way into a chaos fueled civil war and they're all really pure and noble and once you care bear stare into their hearts the whoopsy just goes away...


If only the other primarchs had deployed their care bear stares during the scouring all those accident prone noble astartes could have all been risen too, maybe they could have saved those naive poor primarchs that got boohoo confused by nasty chaos.

Secret character defining shame? Come now you're being too hard on yourself poor fragile warrior. Let go of your whoopsies and become the superbestest can't ever do any wrong warriors who completely undermine the tragedy and consequences of a civil war we just spent 20 years lathering pathos on with a spatula.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
It doesn't look at all ridiculous that they were considered traitors for 10,000 years and then lion el'plot Wang flops around and presto they weren't traitors all along.

No matter how you spin it, the retcon stink won't go away. It just screams contrivance.

They WERE traitors, but for whatever reason the Lion deemed them worthy of redemption. Bit of a difference there.

Because we all know how flip floppy siding with chaos is especially by accident, and how it's just a whoopsy and you're cured of any chaotic taint.

It's not like fighting AGAINST chaos gets you painted with the purge me sign or anything. Definitely can see how actively aiding chaos in fighting the imperium in no way shows a flawed character or dangerous vulnerability that no one would risk ignoring.

Nope, space marines all just accidented their way into a chaos fueled civil war and they're all really pure and noble and once you care bear stare into their hearts the whoopsy just goes away...


If only the other primarchs had deployed their care bear stares during the scouring all those accident prone noble astartes could have all been risen too, maybe they could have saved those naive poor primarchs that got boohoo confused by nasty chaos.

Secret character defining shame? Come now you're being too hard on yourself poor fragile warrior. Let go of your whoopsies and become the superbestest can't ever do any wrong warriors who completely undermine the tragedy and consequences of a civil war we just spent 20 years lathering pathos on with a spatula.

Oooor, perhaps, the insane brutality of the Imperium’s normal approach is not actually a good thing and a more nuanced way has merit? Because there’s definitely no way that people can be honestly deceived into following their commander instead of a distant being they’ve never met, later realise how badly they were fooled and want to come in from the cold… only to find out that the “warmth” is a plasma cannon to the face.
But of course not, that’s heresy!

When we are told repeatedly that just being in proximity to chaos taints everything from buildings to planets to human genelines, it's a bit of a nonsense to treat fighting for it (regardless of the context) as a purely ideological issue.

Chaos isn't a political phase you can change your mind on. Once you let it in, deliberately of not, it is inexorably corrosive.

If you can just change your mind with no consequences then you have undermined the very existential terror the primordial annihilator represents.

If only the Eldar had just changed their minds then slannesh wouldn't have been born.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
It doesn't look at all ridiculous that they were considered traitors for 10,000 years and then lion el'plot Wang flops around and presto they weren't traitors all along.

No matter how you spin it, the retcon stink won't go away. It just screams contrivance.

They WERE traitors, but for whatever reason the Lion deemed them worthy of redemption. Bit of a difference there.

Because we all know how flip floppy siding with chaos is especially by accident, and how it's just a whoopsy and you're cured of any chaotic taint.

It's not like fighting AGAINST chaos gets you painted with the purge me sign or anything. Definitely can see how actively aiding chaos in fighting the imperium in no way shows a flawed character or dangerous vulnerability that no one would risk ignoring.

Nope, space marines all just accidented their way into a chaos fueled civil war and they're all really pure and noble and once you care bear stare into their hearts the whoopsy just goes away...


If only the other primarchs had deployed their care bear stares during the scouring all those accident prone noble astartes could have all been risen too, maybe they could have saved those naive poor primarchs that got boohoo confused by nasty chaos.

Secret character defining shame? Come now you're being too hard on yourself poor fragile warrior. Let go of your whoopsies and become the superbestest can't ever do any wrong warriors who completely undermine the tragedy and consequences of a civil war we just spent 20 years lathering pathos on with a spatula.

The whole point about the dark angels used to be you didn’t really know which half of them actual were the traitors. I know that the HH books have ruined that gem but maybe this is a way of going back to a state where maybe the “traitors” were right and the lion is using them to keep an eye on the dodgy as feth “loyalist” types? I hope that is the case and maybe there’s a bit more nuance to the chapter now.

To quote Codex Angels of Death, "most of the Fallen realise that their actions during the fall of Caliban were wrong. Disgusted by the corrupting influence of the Chaos gods and unable to reconcile themselves with their order they lead a solitary existence."

Tbh the Lion probably trusts neither group. Setting up two mutually mistrustful groups to watch each other without really explaining anything to either seems a very Lion thing to do.

Andykp wrote:


The whole point about the dark angels used to be you didn’t really know which half of them actual were the traitors. I know that the HH books have ruined that gem but maybe this is a way of going back to a state where maybe the “traitors” were right and the lion is using them to keep an eye on the dodgy as feth “loyalist” types? I hope that is the case and maybe there’s a bit more nuance to the chapter now.

That was just the fanon take. It had no basis in... anything. The Chapter DA were the loyalists, period and the end. (Well, post-retcon when they became knights and green and the traitor aspect was created out of nothing, because the traitor bit had no relevance at all to the original version of 1st/2nd edition and the Deathwing short story)

As long as the codex addresses the dynamic between Asmodai and the Lion since you know Asmodai would not tolerate these new “Risen” normally.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Edit-
Light enhanced version of it I found. Can see a few details a tad better.
https://i.imgur.com/3fwWyZb.mp4

And the Kroot and Custard Cream for completeness.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tau40K/comments/18rcq9c/other_angles_on_the_kroot_rider/
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fe843ytmd5n8c1.jpeg%3Fwidth%3D481%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D6d1ebefbb130995626bb39fd0ed1267f5aa014c9

Do you know if anyone did this for the other shadow previews we got?

 Scottywan82 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Edit-
Light enhanced version of it I found. Can see a few details a tad better.
https://i.imgur.com/3fwWyZb.mp4

And the Kroot and Custard Cream for completeness.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tau40K/comments/18rcq9c/other_angles_on_the_kroot_rider/
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fe843ytmd5n8c1.jpeg%3Fwidth%3D481%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D6d1ebefbb130995626bb39fd0ed1267f5aa014c9

Do you know if anyone did this for the other shadow previews we got?

No idea. Just found them by happenstance when poking around on Reddit.

Santtu wrote:
To quote Codex Angels of Death, "most of the Fallen realise that their actions during the fall of Caliban were wrong. Disgusted by the corrupting influence of the Chaos gods and unable to reconcile themselves with their order they lead a solitary existence."

Exactly. I'm no 40k loremaster, but even I know that not all of the Fallen were actively helping Chaos or even fighting against the Imperium. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that several of them simply hung up their bolters and became farmers.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Santtu wrote:
To quote Codex Angels of Death, "most of the Fallen realise that their actions during the fall of Caliban were wrong. Disgusted by the corrupting influence of the Chaos gods and unable to reconcile themselves with their order they lead a solitary existence."

Exactly. I'm no 40k loremaster, but even I know that not all of the Fallen were actively helping Chaos or even fighting against the Imperium. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that several of them simply hung up their bolters and became farmers.

The quote literally says that they were corruptingly influenced by chaos.

I swear to god in 10 years gw will have backflipped the heresy so they can preserve their precious primarchs and marines nobility. They get popular and suddenly they are.bending over backwards to make fans feel like it's ok that their favourite were chaos worshipping evil because they were all just misunderstood...

I got the impression from reading the Arks of Omen: The Lion book that Lion was forgiving any Fallen he found that were simply renegades and killing any that truly embraced the Dark Gods.

Yeah. Not all Fallen fell to Chaos. Some were just wrong place/wrong time, had the wrong information, or are living in shame for what people think of them.

Voss wrote:

Andykp wrote:


The whole point about the dark angels used to be you didn’t really know which half of them actual were the traitors. I know that the HH books have ruined that gem but maybe this is a way of going back to a state where maybe the “traitors” were right and the lion is using them to keep an eye on the dodgy as feth “loyalist” types? I hope that is the case and maybe there’s a bit more nuance to the chapter now.

That was just the fanon take. It had no basis in... anything. The Chapter DA were the loyalists, period and the end. (Well, post-retcon when they became knights and green and the traitor aspect was created out of nothing, because the traitor bit had no relevance at all to the original version of 1st/2nd edition and the Deathwing short story)

It had a basis in a single Gav Thorpe novel where it came from a very unreliable narrator that had fully fallen. Then 4Chan got a hold of it and memes do what they do and people confused the jokes for the actual fluff.

This new fluff just confirms that it was never true all along.

It came from the interrogation of Astelan in one of the codexes.

Yeah it wasn't just one bit of fluff, there were several bits of fluff that hinted, alluded, implied, or directly stated as much - often from the POV of an unreliable narrator or a questionable character. Saying it came out from a bit taken out of context from a single novel and turned into a meme is disingenuous. There was a fairly large body of fluff that pointed in that direction, but that was the *intent* - they never really were secret traitors or whatever, GW was just trying to create compelling background and provide depth. That it was memed by the community is appropriate, because thats what it essentially was from GW to begin with - a meme created by the design team for the consumption of their paying customers. That people then began to take the meme *seriously* or believe it to be real rather than understanding it in the meta-context of what the writers intention was is where the wheels fell off the wagon.

 Geifer wrote:
I'm just baffled that the fluff blurb in the article makes it out like the Companions are some mute weirdos who stalk people and their victims are somehow super chill about it. I hope that's just the article being brief and casual.

I'd like (in a darkly comedic way) if that was just what happened, to show how truly messed up the Imperium has become after the Circatrix formed - you know Bob, the murderous, 10.000 year old hobo-stalker-bodyguard? Yeah, he gives me the creeps and is indeed a huge cause for alarm, but we're so far up gak creek he doesn't even make the list of things that demand, like, any action at all right now...

Hello, I'm not sure if I should post this here or start a new thread, but apparently the latest photo from the rumour engine is a new Kroot.

https://www.thegamer.com/games-workshop-new-kroot-models-warhammer-40000/

People are hoping for a range refresh and expansion, and even a standalone codex.

Personally I'm against that last bit. The Tau have been written into a corner and are so one-sided. It would be interesting to see the Tau become a faction of factions with more focus on its auxiliaries.

So, what do you all make of this article? Could it just be a fancy HQ or Elite? Perhaps a Kroot Lieutenant with antique wargear?

 Dominar_Jameson_V wrote:
Hello, I'm not sure if I should post this here or start a new thread, but apparently the latest photo from the rumour engine is a new Kroot.

https://www.thegamer.com/games-workshop-new-kroot-models-warhammer-40000/

People are hoping for a range refresh and expansion, and even a standalone codex.

Personally I'm against that last bit. The Tau have been written into a corner and are so one-sided. It would be interesting to see the Tau become a faction of factions with more focus on its auxiliaries.

So, what do you all make of this article? Could it just be a fancy HQ or Elite? Perhaps a Kroot Lieutenant with antique wargear?

These are the current Kroot rumours from a month ago:

Tau will get a big release for Kroot, either new combat patrol or new launch box with 20 new kroot, 2 new characters, cavalry and a big gun all dedicated to kroot. One of the kroot characters is riding something

The rider Kroot is already teased in the 2024 silhouette video, the "big gun" part could be that rumour engine from your article shown with the Krootox Rider and the other other ones are likely part of the normal kroot or the second character.

I would say its very unlikely they will get their own codex because 1. the rumours talked about a kroot release for tau, 2. the three shown silhouette fit the next three codexes which includes the Tau codex and not the redacted one and 3. even with all that they don't really have enough kits to warrant their own codex. (yeah I know World eaters also only have 6 kits but they can at least also use some CSM kits)

Nice models. I'm like Rick Priestley, the neo-40k lore doesn't interest me or exist on my shelves.

Good to see the Primaris design going more and more away. Now stuff the Tau backpacks lol

Dunno what you mean by primaris design typing away, it seems to be more and more present.

I think he means the "everything getting taller" thing? Because Primaris were taller than regular Marines and some took that to mean GW was upping the scale of the entire model range. This was also alongside things like Greater Demons going from their regular size to their "Forgeworld" size

Pre-orders if anyone wants that old set https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/30/saturday-pre-orders-dont-miss-out-on-the-battle-for-macragge/

Small MTO for next week under all the old world stuff.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/31/sunday-preview-prepare-to-enter-the-world-of-legend/

two necron lords (one with rez orb, one with staff of light, though both look to be holding rez orbs to me), destroyer lord, cryptek.

Plus warpsmith and Huron. Everything resin except warpsmith, who is still metal.

GW is really going all out nostalgia right now.

Soon enough they make a made to order of the old non plastic Eldar Aspects. -No, wait, those are still the ones we use!

Voss wrote:
Small MTO for next week under all the old world stuff.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/31/sunday-preview-prepare-to-enter-the-world-of-legend/

two necron lords (one with rez orb, one with staff of light, though both look to be holding rez orbs to me), destroyer lord, cryptek.

Plus warpsmith and Huron. Everything resin except warpsmith, who is still metal.

Also FW Huron, Sevrin Loth, and the two Wardens.