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 Geifer wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
Well they aren't calling the chaos marines codex heretic astartes, so why wouldn't they just call them chaos mechancius?

(Chaos) Space Marine is the core of GW's business and has too much brand recognition to change. Even during GW's post-Chapterhouse frenzy where they changed all manner of titles, they didn't touch Chaos Marines. Heretarts didn't make it further than the subtitle. Same for loyalists.

Dark Mechanicus is effectively a new army that has had little exposure in the past decades and the most modest following at best. Much like Squats Leagues of Votann. If GW think they'll get more out of a novelty name like Vashtorr's Varied Vehicular Vorkshop & Vriends, and chances are they do, Dark Mechanicus doesn't stand a chance of making it on a codex cover.

They have brand recognition through the existing codex adeptus mechancius and the parallels to the chaos marines codex.

Having codex space marines next to codex chaos space marines next to codex adeptus mechanicus and codex chaos mechanicus provides all the context clues the purchaser needs. New players won't know what anything is anyway, making them all level. Existing players understand the nomenclature.

Doesn't seem that complicated to me.

If GW going to split dark mech or IW there be a sht storm of promo so we have no chance to miss. And brave managers in stores provide all necessary info for new players. That's not a 2002 or earlier and all info available on any kettle with internet connection. So no matter how they call new faction

 Hellebore wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
Well they aren't calling the chaos marines codex heretic astartes, so why wouldn't they just call them chaos mechancius?

(Chaos) Space Marine is the core of GW's business and has too much brand recognition to change. Even during GW's post-Chapterhouse frenzy where they changed all manner of titles, they didn't touch Chaos Marines. Heretarts didn't make it further than the subtitle. Same for loyalists.

Dark Mechanicus is effectively a new army that has had little exposure in the past decades and the most modest following at best. Much like Squats Leagues of Votann. If GW think they'll get more out of a novelty name like Vashtorr's Varied Vehicular Vorkshop & Vriends, and chances are they do, Dark Mechanicus doesn't stand a chance of making it on a codex cover.

They have brand recognition through the existing codex adeptus mechancius and the parallels to the chaos marines codex.

Having codex space marines next to codex chaos space marines next to codex adeptus mechanicus and codex chaos mechanicus provides all the context clues the purchaser needs. New players won't know what anything is anyway, making them all level. Existing players understand the nomenclature.

Doesn't seem that complicated to me.

We're talking about the people who called one of their paints XV-88. Not XV-88 Brown or XV-88 Ocher. Just XV-88. And went on to change the poster boy faction from brown T'au to white Vior'la, so beforehand nothing set the battlesuits in question apart from the rest of the army to deduce the color and now the entire faction doesn't even sport it anymore.

If clarity was a concern to GW, we'd have Codex Dark Eldar sit next to Codex (Craftworld) Eldar. That's not complicated either. And yet...

You aren't wrong that they should call Dark Mechanicus Dark Mechanicus. There's just no reason to trust them to do it.

They are not Dark Mechanicus. That's like calling the Iron Warriors a chaos space marine chapter. They are the Mechanicum. As they were before the Heresy.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
They are not Dark Mechanicus. That's like calling the Iron Warriors a chaos space marine chapter. They are the Mechanicum. As they were before the Heresy.

What name did the spider things from Li use?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
They are not Dark Mechanicus. That's like calling the Iron Warriors a chaos space marine chapter. They are the Mechanicum. As they were before the Heresy.

What name did the spider things from Li use?

They are labeled as Dark Mechanicum.

 Geifer wrote:
If clarity was a concern to GW, we'd have Codex Dark Eldar sit next to Codex (Craftworld) Eldar. That's not complicated either. And yet...

I still reckon the loss of the 'eldar' name has more to do with maintaining the Tolkien licence than anything: "you can make our models if you don't use our names for anything else." And JRR did come up with the word eldar.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
If clarity was a concern to GW, we'd have Codex Dark Eldar sit next to Codex (Craftworld) Eldar. That's not complicated either. And yet...

I still reckon the loss of the 'eldar' name has more to do with maintaining the Tolkien licence than anything: "you can make our models if you don't use our names for anything else." And JRR did come up with the word eldar.

Uhhh... How old was Tolkien? The name Eldar appeared in Europe in the 1400's.

John Eldar de Corstorphine, who was recorded as a burgess of Edinburgh in 1423.

Also appears in Scandinavian names.

He was the first to attach it to Elves, but he didn't create the word.

Hey! Corstrophine! That’s more or less where I grew up as a kid! Well, Drum Brae, but geographically close enough.

Certainly it’s where I went to spend my birthday and Christmas money in Woolies.

Also where I saw the real Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, many moons ago, outside the Kwik Fit.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
If clarity was a concern to GW, we'd have Codex Dark Eldar sit next to Codex (Craftworld) Eldar. That's not complicated either. And yet...

I still reckon the loss of the 'eldar' name has more to do with maintaining the Tolkien licence than anything: "you can make our models if you don't use our names for anything else." And JRR did come up with the word eldar.

Uhhh... How old was Tolkien? The name Eldar appeared in Europe in the 1400's.

John Eldar de Corstorphine, who was recorded as a burgess of Edinburgh in 1423.

Also appears in Scandinavian names.

He was the first to attach it to Elves, but he didn't create the word.

Yes, he didn't invent it, but my crazy conspiracy theory is that since it can be linked to the Middle Earth stuff, it's the sort of stupid thing that a blanket legal deal would insist on picking up.

If that had ever been a thing, GW wouldn't have waited until the mass Copyrightification of naming that occurred across both of the Main 2 at the same time several editions after they first made MESBG to stop using Eldar.

 Shakalooloo wrote:
Yes, he didn't invent it, but my crazy conspiracy theory is that since it can be linked to the Middle Earth stuff, it's the sort of stupid thing that a blanket legal deal would insist on picking up.

If that was in any way even remotely true, The Old World wouldn't be full of elves, orcs, goblins, and all the other Tolkein fare.

 Platuan4th wrote:
If that had ever been a thing, GW wouldn't have waited until the mass Copyrightification of naming that occurred across both of the Main 2 at the same time several editions after they first made MESBG to stop using Eldar.

That's why it's my personal theory that no-one wants to join me in believing.

Ok, broke out the old Paralegal Certification and did some research.

The issue stems from Legal Vulnerability.

Games Workshop realized that while they could copyright their specific books and models, they couldn't stop other miniature companies from producing their own "space elf" models and potentially using the generic term "Eldar" in product descriptions without infringing on a rock solid trademark.

This would allow competitors to capitalize on the established name recognition.

This change followed around the time of the Chapterhouse lawsuit, which highlighted the complexities of intellectual property law in the wargaming hobby.

This likely spurred GW to tighten its IP protections across the board

For example:

Imperial Guard became Astra Militarum, Stormtroopers became Tempestus Scions and so on.

The irony is that the community still calls them eldar and now every 3rd party producer can use the community recognised name because GW are concentrating on their copyrighted aeldari name instead...

So Lathe, I do believe that you are correct, but:

Aeldari also sounds like a word in the Aeldari language. I think of it as how they would refer to themselves. Ditto for Drukhari. Elf and Dark Elf always sounded like what unsophisticated Monkeigh savages would call them, and even Eldar and Dark Eldar aren't that much more sophisticated.

As for Astra Militarum, Adeptus Astartes, and Adepta Sororitas, I believe these words always existed in the lore, but just never appeared on the book covers. I could be wrong about that- all of my old, old edition rulebooks and dexes are long gone. If anyone is still in possession of Rogue Trader, 2nd or 3rd ed books, take a look... But I'm pretty sure.

That doesn't mean you're wrong: begining to use those terms as the actual faction names rather than just bits of Imperial Gothic language from the fluff certainly WAS a conscious choice for legal reasons.

Also, I know nothing about Tempestus Scions, so that one probably was made up on the spot.

Astra Militarum was new, the Imperial Guard had always been a branch of the Departmento Munitorum as far as High Gothic names within the Administratum go (of which they are a part).

The Astartes and Sororitas were always Adepti of the Imperium, parallel to the Administratum.

Lathe Biosas wrote:Ok, broke out the old Paralegal Certification and did some research.

The issue stems from Legal Vulnerability.

Games Workshop realized that while they could copyright their specific books and models, they couldn't stop other miniature companies from producing their own "space elf" models and potentially using the generic term "Eldar" in product descriptions without infringing on a rock solid trademark.

This would allow competitors to capitalize on the established name recognition.

This change followed around the time of the Chapterhouse lawsuit, which highlighted the complexities of intellectual property law in the wargaming hobby.

This likely spurred GW to tighten its IP protections across the board

For example:

Imperial Guard became Astra Militarum, Stormtroopers became Tempestus Scions and so on.

Tbh I thought this was obvious? Remember when GW lost the legal battle of trying to copyright "space marine"?

PenitentJake wrote:So Lathe, I do believe that you are correct, but:

Aeldari also sounds like a word in the Aeldari language. I think of it as how they would refer to themselves. Ditto for Drukhari. Elf and Dark Elf always sounded like what unsophisticated Monkeigh savages would call them, and even Eldar and Dark Eldar aren't that much more sophisticated.

As for Astra Militarum, Adeptus Astartes, and Adepta Sororitas, I believe these words always existed in the lore, but just never appeared on the book covers. I could be wrong about that- all of my old, old edition rulebooks and dexes are long gone. If anyone is still in possession of Rogue Trader, 2nd or 3rd ed books, take a look... But I'm pretty sure.

That doesn't mean you're wrong: begining to use those terms as the actual faction names rather than just bits of Imperial Gothic language from the fluff certainly WAS a conscious choice for legal reasons.

Also, I know nothing about Tempestus Scions, so that one probably was made up on the spot.

Retcons, or someone at GW did some deep digging in obscure lore when they were looking for terms to copyright

 Hellebore wrote:
The irony is that the community still calls them eldar and now every 3rd party producer can use the community recognised name because GW are concentrating on their copyrighted aeldari name instead...

It's gonna depend on the age of the community. My current group is made up of players who didn't play during the time before Copyrightification and so unironically use all the new names because it's the names for the armies when they started.

A terrifying prospect!

You can't just wipe out 30-40 years of marketing in one go. Everyone still calls Space Marines - Space Marines. They don't really use Astartes at all.

Heck look at other brands; everyone still calls a Dyson a Hoover half the time or more.

A few names might change - eg I could see Imperial Guard slowly lost to AM; Eldar is tricky because GW keeps messing around with them

Are they Aldari - Eldar - Craftworld - GW doens't seem to want to settle.

Tyranids to Genstealer Cults there's a very clear line between what goes in what; with Eldar though GW keeps muddying the water.

News & rumours discussion here, everything else, anywhere else but here, KTHX!

Did we ever figure out if the World Eaters Butcher Surgeon was real or not?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Did we ever figure out if the World Eaters Butcher Surgeon was real or not?

Not definitively

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Did we ever figure out if the World Eaters Butcher Surgeon was real or not?

Clear fake

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Did we ever figure out if the World Eaters Butcher Surgeon was real or not?

A rather distressingly in-depth analysis suggests it's fake. Better than most fakes, but clearly fake.

World Championship preview:

Oh, I like the detail of the broken boding knife on the twins' thigh armour.
Also are those drones with pulse blasters rather than pulse carbines?

At least Nevelon will be happy with even more Ultramarines ... except what happened to the other 2nd Company Captain?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
At least Nevelon will be happy with even more Ultramarines ... except what happened to the other 2nd Company Captain?

Got promoted sideways to the Victrix Guard, didn't he?