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looks rough against those Tau.... grats against the wolves tho! sweet victory against the damn puppies

Backfire wrote:Well, just reserve them?

16 Pathfinders, whoa. Why so many? To make sure you finish off Deathstar units?

I just like markerlights! Also great for taking down stormraven's cover and upping BS to guarantee a kill. I didn't let a stormraven through my lines this tourney. (faced 4) I suppose it could be for deathstar units, but I didn't face any that I bothered killing. Game 1 I also fought 30 death company, but I ran them around with 2 drones, what a silly unit.

Scary Tau list IMO. But what do I know, I've only played as high as a 2k game.

Jesus Christ people! Jy2 I like your games and I like your reports. I didn't like reading those TWO reports because the luck was so one-sided it made them uninteresting.

That's my opinion. That's how I feel. That's the feeling I got when reading them.

Jy2 you're a great guy and yes, I think your tactics are great, your target priority is spot-on, and your list is solid. I'm enjoying your battle reports of the tournament immensely as you prevail in difficult situations against other very skilled opponents.

To all the posters that jumped on me, back off. I responded with my opinion of the codex. I think it's broken and yes, while I win games against grey knights SOME of the time with my chaos army it's an incredibly uphill battle that I feel is way way OTT and unnecessary. Blood angels and de can give me hard games too but not the way GK just dump out dice for shooting like the chessex factory exploded and then laugh when I try to assault them. This place is a forum where opinions are expressed, and this battle report thread features grey knights and the tactics used with them as well as the strengths and weaknesses of the list. I've insulted no-one, and my comments are pertinent to the army represented in the thread's reports.

So chill, back off, and let's read some more battle reports.

The Vindicare seems underwelming. How fast until he changes to a Techmarine for the grenades and repair ability?

I think that though the Vindicare has thus far performed poorly for jv2, that's actually more bad luck than anything. While it's my view that the Vindicare is a rather hit or miss model, it can have a decisive influence on a gamwe, and even when it doesn't, it tends to attract fire away from othe runits for a turn at least. At 2500 points it represents just under 6% of the total force value and can be safely seen as 'expendable' and worth the investment in points. It may fail to recoup its value (but will be a trivial loss) but equally it may make many times its value (which would be a significant gain).

I favor the double punch of techmarine AND vindicare, hunkered down in bolstered ruins for the 2+ cover

techmarine means one less venerable dreadnought. Not, in my view, a good exchange in a Crowe/Purifier/Dreadnought list.

I don't feel JY would need the aid of a techmarine as much, as he's got no real dedicated assault units to make the most of rad-grenades, whilst the venerable psyflemen clearly work very well for him!
I agree with Artemo's assessment of the Vindicare; he is hit and miss, but when he hits, he does so with the strength of a... uhhh... vindicare! Add to that his points cost and he seems like a reasonable option to me; at least until a better alternative can be found!
I'd wonder about potentially more interceptors or upgrading some rhinos to razorbacks as a potential alternative; but a Vindicare seems very reasonable for the time being! Obviously JY knows his list as well, which is the crux of the matter IMHO.

As ever, looking forward to the rest of the battle report; this is going to be a real nail-biter!

Basically a Vindicare in cover will die to 5 or 6 BS4 S8+ attacks. In reinforced cover that would be 11 attacks. A significant improvement...

But not at the cost of removing a venerable dreadnought from the list who it takes 13 such attacks to remove, 26 if he's in cover...

The techmarine can also repair a weapon destroyed or immobilised on a dead at 4+ (even a rhino). Rerollable with a psychic test.

DarthDiggler wrote:The techmarine can also repair a weapon destroyed or immobilised on a dead at 4+ (even a rhino). Rerollable with a psychic test.

I think techmarines are better in Draigowing style lists or in Henchmen style lists. Yes he can repair vehicles but he is much better as a grenadier and assisting squads that are focused on assaulting instead of running behind vehicles and fixing them.

Backfire wrote:Heh, I guess your "awesome luck" hasn't quite kicked in yet

He has no Piranhas? He seems to have gone all-out on Firepower with this list.

Not much luck at the Ard Boyz. All the games were a grind, both for me and my opponent (with probably the exception of Gus' Tau).

Yeah, I thought he could use some piranhas as well, but in the end, it seems as if he did alright with just the 2 pathfinder units.

Gus Indo wrote:I suppose a few piranhas could have done me good, but as with last game against jy2, they would have died immediately. He knows what to kill with his dreads.

Whoa, I'm flattered that you changed your list because of me. j.k.

Those 2 squads of pathfinders proved to be quite effective, as is your overall list.

metalgear1313 wrote:Sacred Feth! I just picked up this thread a day ago and JY2, i am seriously impressed with your skills. I may have little actual combat experience in 40k, mainly because i just started my first real army, but after reading this thread and some of your other batreps, i seriously have not been able to find a more entertaining and informative series of batreps on this, and several other sites. way to go with the first match and I'm right there with all the other guys on waiting for the continuation.

Thanks! I try to make my reports entertaining as well as informative. I'm glad you like them. My skills are ok, though a lot of times, I forget to do the little things (like cast Hammerhand in combat!).

Game #2 will be out a little later today.

rovian wrote:jy2 Not to whine but I think you cannot shunt on to the board because I believe you have to be on the board to hence move on with regular then you can activate wargear.

As you are the second person to ask about this, I've asked this question here at YMDC.

I'm pretty sure you can shunt from reserves. You just can't do it with your Scout move, which is what was FAQ'd. When you come in from reserves, you can turbo-boost, move flat-out, pop smoke, etc. The only restriction is that you must declare deepstriking, outflanking or any other special forms of deployment (i.e. ymgarl's special deployment rule) and the model has to be able to move entirely onto the table. If you have any powers/special rules that say they are used at the beginning of your turn (i.e. some psychic powers) then you wouldn't be able to use those as well as you are not in play yet (there is 1 exception, which I believe is one of those Space Wolf special rules). But these special rules (i.e. psychic communion) explicitly state that they are done at the beginning of the turn, implying that you have to already be on the board to use them. However, shunting is not one of these powers.

You shunt instead of moving normally correct? So if you move on to the board you have already moved and therefore cannot shunt.

No...you shunt onto the board instead of moving.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We should take it to YMDC...jy2 has put a thread up there so we should use it.

Why would you be able to turbo-boost onto the board but not shunt. I am baffled.

Game #2 vs Tau finished on p.4.

WOW! Despite bad luck and your forces getting shot to bits, you scrape by with a minor victory. I'm sure other players would have given up and threw in the towel early, but you stick to it till the end, and got rewarded with a win. Congrats, I look forward to reading you next game against Bobby.

@Gus:

Ouch, failing a pinning test right when it mattered the most. For the most part, your tactics were solid. Good job taking Crowe out and passing so many moral tests. IMO, you should have won, but lack of mobility hindered your units from contesting. Your list could used a single squad of Piranhas. It really helps blocking vehicles or contesting late game.

Did.... Not.....See..................wow. That's all I can say. Incredible game, with a completely unthinkable endiing. As always, a very interesting game and a nice conclusion. I think that with the spearhead setup, it forced the tau player to bottle up his guys, and if he failed his LD tests, that would have been that for a bunch of those guys. Still to pass almost every test!?! That was insane, I hope that the dice looked more favorably on you in the third game and that those LD test were more effective

another thing, and i agree with Sabrx on this, the lack of any real mobility imo severely limited his options in terms of this scernario he played, my guess is he was hopin to pound whoever played against him to a bloody pulp and then rush his troops at the objectives.

Anyways, good game and looking forward to the next one

Haha, objectives games against SAFH lists are so easy once you realize that it doesn't matter how many guys you lose as long as you have one dude on an objective at the end of the game. The trick is not to get demoralized, right? Good call eliminating what little mobility he had early on. You played the mission and not the opponent and got the win.

Excellent reports! I'm waiting anxiously for number 3.

Zid wrote:looks rough against those Tau.... grats against the wolves tho! sweet victory against the damn puppies

Yeah, it was a really tough battle against Gus' Tau, but I stuck to my gameplan and it worked. I'm finding Tau to be quite a challenge for my mech-GK's and Gus is quite the Tau general. BTW, he made it to the Semi's as well as he tabled his last opponent (another GK player).

I play Space Wolves as well and I know how good and dangerous they, especially TWC-wolves. That was actually the army I was most concerned about.

Gus Indo wrote:
I just like markerlights! Also great for taking down stormraven's cover and upping BS to guarantee a kill. I didn't let a stormraven through my lines this tourney. (faced 4) I suppose it could be for deathstar units, but I didn't face any that I bothered killing. Game 1 I also fought 30 death company, but I ran them around with 2 drones, what a silly unit.

Not just that, but you didn't let any rhinos through as well. Well, 1 maybe...but it was empty.

Lt. Coldfire wrote:Scary Tau list IMO. But what do I know, I've only played as high as a 2k game.

It's also pretty dang good at 2K also. I've only lost 3 times with my purifiers...and all were to foot-armies - Gus' Tau, Janthkin's Tyranids and another GK player with stormbolter-spam foot-knights.

Spellbound wrote:
To all the posters that jumped on me, back off. I responded with my opinion of the codex. I think it's broken and yes, while I win games against grey knights SOME of the time with my chaos army it's an incredibly uphill battle that I feel is way way OTT and unnecessary. Blood angels and de can give me hard games too but not the way GK just dump out dice for shooting like the chessex factory exploded and then laugh when I try to assault them. This place is a forum where opinions are expressed, and this battle report thread features grey knights and the tactics used with them as well as the strengths and weaknesses of the list. I've insulted no-one, and my comments are pertinent to the army represented in the thread's reports.

That's cool. I'm not offended or anything and can understand your frustration with them. I'm sure a lot of people don't like the new grey knights, especially people playing some of the older armies. They've just got too many tools to deal with almost any type of situation and/or threats....and they are under-costed for some of the things they can do. Unfortunately, they're out there, and you're going to see them a lot in tournaments. Now you may not like them, but you're still going to have to play against them if you're into the tournament scene. As for myself, I tend to have a more posititive attitude. I look at tougher armies as a challenge waiting to be overcome rather than just as a "broken" army/build.

DarthDiggler wrote:The Vindicare seems underwelming. How fast until he changes to a Techmarine for the grenades and repair ability?

Actually, I've already decided to drop him from my regular 2K list. But you tend to see a lot of land raiders at the Ard Boyz level. Thus I may require his services again.

I've been considering the techmarine, but at this point I am not sure I will be using him. While he is a good unit and brings a lot of benefits to the army, I actually don't think he fits into my list. I will experiment with him in some casual games.

Artemo wrote:I think that though the Vindicare has thus far performed poorly for jv2, that's actually more bad luck than anything. While it's my view that the Vindicare is a rather hit or miss model, it can have a decisive influence on a gamwe, and even when it doesn't, it tends to attract fire away from othe runits for a turn at least. At 2500 points it represents just under 6% of the total force value and can be safely seen as 'expendable' and worth the investment in points. It may fail to recoup its value (but will be a trivial loss) but equally it may make many times its value (which would be a significant gain).

Well said. He's been mainly miss so far, but at the Ard Boyz level, he does fill a niche, just like tyrannofexes in a tyranid army. You tend to see a lot of land raiders at the Ard Boyz level and to a lesser extent, leman-russ spam. Well, he is my LR-buster.

He is also a good psychological threat. Unfortunately, the more experienced players tend to ignore him until there are no better targets around. That's what both Gus and Bobby did, and that's what I would have done also.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spellbound wrote:I favor the double punch of techmarine AND vindicare, hunkered down in bolstered ruins for the 2+ cover

I've actually considered that as well, though I don't think it is a very efficient build. I would play that combo in casual games against less competitive opponents, but I'd be gimping myself if I take that combo against more experienced players.

But I'm looking at it from the perspective of a Crowe-purifier mech-build. In other builds (i.e. paladins and stormravens), it may work, but that is not a build I have much experience with.

Artemo wrote:techmarine means one less venerable dreadnought. Not, in my view, a good exchange in a Crowe/Purifier/Dreadnought list.

Wow, Artemo. I am really impressed with your perspectives on the Grey Knights and especially, the Crowe-Purifier-dread build. Exactly my thoughts as well.

Just Dave wrote:I don't feel JY would need the aid of a techmarine as much, as he's got no real dedicated assault units to make the most of rad-grenades, whilst the venerable psyflemen clearly work very well for him!
I agree with Artemo's assessment of the Vindicare; he is hit and miss, but when he hits, he does so with the strength of a... uhhh... vindicare! Add to that his points cost and he seems like a reasonable option to me; at least until a better alternative can be found!
I'd wonder about potentially more interceptors or upgrading some rhinos to razorbacks as a potential alternative; but a Vindicare seems very reasonable for the time being! Obviously JY knows his list as well, which is the crux of the matter IMHO.

As ever, looking forward to the rest of the battle report; this is going to be a real nail-biter!

After this, I'm going to be playing around with my interceptor-build some more. I think they really have potential. I actually played List #2 against the same Deathwing army that faced my List #1. I will post up that batrep at a later date (after I'm done with my Ard Boyz battle reports). What I want to do is test it against Gus' Tau. His army has been giving my mech-purifiers fits.

I also want to experiment with psybacks in my purifier list. You're see them in future batreps.

DarthDiggler wrote:The techmarine can also repair a weapon destroyed or immobilised on a dead at 4+ (even a rhino). Rerollable with a psychic test.

Actually, I feel this would actually hurt the chemistry of my list. Rhinos with dozers rarely immobilise themselves unless if they take damage from shooting. And they're just too fast for the slow techmarine. Now if you put the techie with the purifiers in a rhino, you can be sure that rhino is target numero uno.

As for my dreads, they're already too damn tough to shoot down. Against all my opponents, only Gus was able to take down the most dreads - 3 out of 5. Few can take out more than that and none have wiped out all my dreads. I really don't need the techmarine to make them more resilient.

What I do need is more bodies. I will be swapping out the vindicare for more infantry, whether it be more purifiers or a unit of interceptors.

unityvybe wrote:
I think techmarines are better in Draigowing style lists or in Henchmen style lists. Yes he can repair vehicles but he is much better as a grenadier and assisting squads that are focused on assaulting instead of running behind vehicles and fixing them.

Agreed.

jy2 wrote: I will post up that batrep at a later date (after I'm done with my Ard Boyz battle reports). What I want to do is test it against Gus' Tau. His army has been giving my mech-purifiers fits.

Bring it on! I also want to test my Footdar against Grey Knights sometime. I think Purifiers will be the bane of my army.

Yeah, jump infantry is the bane of Tau, especially ones with Force Weapons and Str5 storm bolters. You may want to field a lot more Kroots, Gus.

Tomb King wrote:You shunt instead of moving normally correct? So if you move on to the board you have already moved and therefore cannot shunt.

I think the confusion here is with the Scout move. The Scout USR specifically mentions that the unit makes a normal move. Coming in from reserves has no such restriction where it pertains to what type of movement you make to enter the board (as long as you are wholly on the board).

The way I look at it (and barring any explicit restrictions), you can always run instead of shooting. You can always turbo-boost/move flat-out instead of moving. You can always shunt instead of moving (as long as you only do it once per game and not with your Scout move).

Lukus83 wrote:No...you shunt onto the board instead of moving.

We should take it to YMDC...jy2 has put a thread up there so we should use it.

Well put. Thanks.

Spellbound wrote:Why would you be able to turbo-boost onto the board but not shunt. I am baffled.

That's the thing. Shunting is a form of movement just like turbo-boosting or moving flat-out. Except for the Scout move (since it has been FAQ'd as such), you should always be able to shunt in place of moving normally, as long as it is done only once per game.

SabrX wrote:Yeah, jump infantry is the bane of Tau, especially ones with Force Weapons and Str5 storm bolters. You may want to field a lot more Kroots, Gus.

'

I was thinking that purifiers were the bane of my footdar. I've faced interceptors a few times, in the early weeks after the GK codex came out and always come out on top.

More kroot? I may include another unit in my main list, but I don't want to draw down on any firepower.

jy2 wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I don't feel JY would need the aid of a techmarine as much, as he's got no real dedicated assault units to make the most of rad-grenades, whilst the venerable psyflemen clearly work very well for him!
I agree with Artemo's assessment of the Vindicare; he is hit and miss, but when he hits, he does so with the strength of a... uhhh... vindicare! Add to that his points cost and he seems like a reasonable option to me; at least until a better alternative can be found!
I'd wonder about potentially more interceptors or upgrading some rhinos to razorbacks as a potential alternative; but a Vindicare seems very reasonable for the time being! Obviously JY knows his list as well, which is the crux of the matter IMHO.

As ever, looking forward to the rest of the battle report; this is going to be a real nail-biter!

After this, I'm going to be playing around with my interceptor-build some more. I think they really have potential. I actually played List #2 against the same Deathwing army that faced my List #1. I will post up that batrep at a later date (after I'm done with my Ard Boyz battle reports). What I want to do is test it against Gus' Tau. His army has been giving my mech-purifiers fits.

I also want to experiment with psybacks in my purifier list. You're see them in future batreps.

Can hardly wait man!

Great report as ever against the Tau; really close game. Despite their weaknesses they clearly do give your Knights a run for their money; lucky or not. Really entertaining game though and went right to the wire; great tactics from both you and Gus. Tau always suffer in objective games anyways. Really looking forward to your next report!

SabrX wrote:WOW! Despite bad luck and your forces getting shot to bits, you scrape by with a minor victory. I'm sure other players would have given up and threw in the towel early, but you stick to it till the end, and got rewarded with a win. Congrats, I look forward to reading you next game against Bobby.

@Gus:

Ouch, failing a pinning test right when it mattered the most. For the most part, your tactics were solid. Good job taking Crowe out and passing so many moral tests. IMO, you should have won, but lack of mobility hindered your units from contesting. Your list could used a single squad of Piranhas. It really helps blocking vehicles or contesting late game.

Strategy-wise, my aggressiveness was just a feint. I just wanted to keep him in his deployment zone. I was going to pull back after advancing. I knew he could out-shoot me, though I did under-estimate the amount of damage he caused. As long as I could keep his Movement Phase contained and survive his Shooting Phase, I was actually pretty confident of a victory. It was a nervous game because I almost didn't survive his Shooting phases.

That's also why I destroyed his tanks even though they were of a lower priority threat. It was all a part of my plan to restrict his mobility.

metalgear1313 wrote: Did.... Not.....See..................wow. That's all I can say. Incredible game, with a completely unthinkable endiing. As always, a very interesting game and a nice conclusion. I think that with the spearhead setup, it forced the tau player to bottle up his guys, and if he failed his LD tests, that would have been that for a bunch of those guys. Still to pass almost every test!?! That was insane, I hope that the dice looked more favorably on you in the third game and that those LD test were more effective

another thing, and i agree with Sabrx on this, the lack of any real mobility imo severely limited his options in terms of this scernario he played, my guess is he was hopin to pound whoever played against him to a bloody pulp and then rush his troops at the objectives.

Anyways, good game and looking forward to the next one

Yeah, that last LD fail by his firewarriors was huge. If they had not failed it, he might have won.

I think he took a gamble on this list because 1) it was an anti-meta list and should do well against all the armies that bring a lot of AT with them (like mine) and 2) 2 out of the 3 missions did not involve objectives. He would do great with this list in those and hope to wing it on scenario #2.

jy2 wrote:
Yeah, that last LD fail by his firewarriors was huge. If they had not failed it, he might have won.

I think he took a gamble on this list because 1) it was an anti-meta list and should do well against all the armies that bring a lot of AT with them (like mine) and 2) 2 out of the 3 missions did not involve objectives. He would do great with this list in those and hope to wing it on scenario #2.

If the firewarriors had gotten their movement next turn I would have taken the win, but I'm overall very happy with the results of the tourney. If I had won, my 3rd round match would have been much harder, and despite having such a close match, we both made it to the top 3, so I couldn't be happier.

Its also true that my list wasted the opponent's anti-tank, and because there were no objectives for most of the tourney, I had a great chance with games 1 and 3. In fact, both games without objectives I either wiped out my opponent or left him with a squad of death company chasing drones around his deployment zone.

Despite bad luck and your forces getting shot to bits, you scrape by with a minor victory

Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never ... Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy

I thought the warding staff could only be used for wounds caused by close combat and not perils as you did?