Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Nice rep. I hope in Ard Boyz cover saves are just as good to you, lol.

I would also suggest getting another practise game in letting the BA player take first turn. It will give you a disadvantage and improve your game. Just my opinion of course.

Congrats on the win.

ivangterrace wrote:Eh, if you dumped the interceptors and rhinos and bought razorbacks with psybolt ammo in their place, that crowe list would be a lot better

While psybacks are nice, with purifiers, I prefer the rhino because of their 2 psycannons. The way I look at it, you're paying extra for double the shooting at only half the efficiency.

the weird one wrote:Fire points say no!

EDIT:

I believe Fortitude will dominate the match. These are just too many psycannons to bear, and your infantry outclasses his in all aspects. Finally, you're infantry can kill his tanks. His can't... at least it has more difficulties and range problems. And you're can easily dominate his infantry too.

I hope so. He's got 2 psychic hoods to try to stop my Fortitude as well as at least a 5+ cover for all his vehicles.

I think it's going to come out to who has the more effective shooting.

Lukus83 wrote:This could be a tough matchup. If you get first turn you can cause a lot of damage to his razorbacks though the preds are a little tougher to handle This gives you the advantage of forcing his infantry to move forward on foot and you can effectively stay out of melta range and have a lot less lascannons to worry about. If he gets first turn he can do the exact same thing to your rhinos. Smart decisions will have to be made for whoever gets 2nd turn since you both have some significant firepower in your lists. Castling up away from some some of the firepower would be my suggestion, but knowing that the BA transports are fast may hamper that...Honestly I don't know who would win, but it seems to me it will be an uphill battle for GK.

It definitely is. IMO razor-spam BA is probably their most competitive build. Although I have confidence in my own army, I can't say for sure that I will take this. Then again, my opponent is going to be in for a tough fight himself. But he does have a huge mobility advantage in that he can quickly redeploy if necessary. All his tanks can move 18"! If we end up playing Scenario #2 (modified Seize Ground), I think he has a major advantage.

Valek wrote:
That was the sort of armielist i was thinking your footknights will just die in droves. ap2 shooting deluxe... but coupled with vindicators a bit like Mercer is playing.

I think you wont make much chance tbh, you will need first turn! and he has two hoods to stop overuse of fortitude...

I'm not sold on the vindicators. I probably wouldn't use more than 1 in my mech-BA list if I was to use them.

Honestly, I don't think it's whoever has 1st turn will have the advantage. I think it's whoever has the 1st effective shooting turn will take the game.

Just Dave wrote:Wow. that is a very powerful list...
I think I have to agree with the sentiments that whomever gets 1st turn gets a significant advantage, but that could also depend on terrain coverage too, so I really couldn't say in advance...
In Dawn of War or an objective game I'd probably favour the Grey Knights but it's a very tricky decision clearly!

I look forward to hearing how it goes man, good luck. I understand your decision regarding the Land Raider too, although I'm really not sold on the 5-man interceptors yet...

It is....and I helped my opponent to build it. First turn will help, but I think whoever has the 1st effective shooting turn will take this game and not necessarily whoever has 1st turn.

In Seize Ground, honestly, I would give BA the advantage. I may have the advantage in KP games and in Victory Points, it's going to be a toss-up.

The 5-man interceptor squad will be more of a harassment and distraction unit. I don't think they will really effective, but they're mainly there to give me some much needed mobility.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lukus83 wrote:Nice rep. I hope in Ard Boyz cover saves are just as good to you, lol.

I would also suggest getting another practise game in letting the BA player take first turn. It will give you a disadvantage and improve your game. Just my opinion of course.

Congrats on the win.

I'm actually having a rematch against him again this Thurs. He's going to be bringing the same BA mech-list, but I will be using my Interceptor list against it because I didn't get the chance to use them this time (we ran out of time for our 2nd game).

He's also bringing another very nasty list for our game #2 - Deathwing!

Why is it nasty? 45 assault terminators with 9 cyclone missile launchers, Belial and some multi-melta bikes. That's why.

To put my two cents in it's always more fun to play the list you like rather then the list you say is more powerful.

The BA list seesm to narrow in it's focus. If it doesn't play against a light mech list it looks to have trouble. Many foot lists should have great success against it. He needs a counter attack element to kick things out of his lines or to assault the enemy off an objective.

This is Ard Boyz. How is he going to get rid of pathfinders in cover on an objective? Shoot them with a lascannon? How does he whittle down Ork Hordes before they crash his lines? How does he get Ghaz & co. out of his lines once the BW gets him there? How does he stop a Draigowing list from rolling up multiple tanks in assault? A lone lascannon can't stop the Paladins when Draigo is attached. Here's the kicker. What does he do when 3 full squads of Marine Bikes and a Marine Command squad turbo into his face and threaten meltagun and krak grenade death?

Lists are about solving problems. The BA list can solve one problem to the exclusion of so many others.

Sorry I am so overly critical. I don't mean to be. I apologize. For what he has I think he would have had some success outflanking the Baals. That way they get side shots on the Dreads and he can deny them cover. I also think he should have reserved everything. This would insure all his vehicles would get the first shot as they roll on. Having so many vehicles deployed at once gives your dreads good shots everywhere. If half of them are off the table, then the half that come on can hug cover and deny some dreads shots on turn 3 (the dreads first chance to shoot if he reserves everything). The more turns he denies the dreads a shot the better his chances in a VP game.

DarthDiggler wrote:The BA list seesm to narrow in it's focus. If it doesn't play against a light mech list it looks to have trouble. Many foot lists should have great success against it. He needs a counter attack element to kick things out of his lines or to assault the enemy off an objective.

This is Ard Boyz. How is he going to get rid of pathfinders in cover on an objective? Shoot them with a lascannon? How does he whittle down Ork Hordes before they crash his lines? How does he get Ghaz & co. out of his lines once the BW gets him there? How does he stop a Draigowing list from rolling up multiple tanks in assault? A lone lascannon can't stop the Paladins when Draigo is attached. Here's the kicker. What does he do when 3 full squads of Marine Bikes and a Marine Command squad turbo into his face and threaten meltagun and krak grenade death?

Lists are about solving problems. The BA list can solve one problem to the exclusion of so many others.

Sorry I am so overly critical. I don't mean to be. I apologize. For what he has I think he would have had some success outflanking the Baals. That way they get side shots on the Dreads and he can deny them cover. I also think he should have reserved everything. This would insure all his vehicles would get the first shot as they roll on. Having so many vehicles deployed at once gives your dreads good shots everywhere. If half of them are off the table, then the half that come on can hug cover and deny some dreads shots on turn 3 (the dreads first chance to shoot if he reserves everything). The more turns he denies the dreads a shot the better his chances in a VP game.

I think it is a very good all-comer's list that has little weakness. It can take on any type of army, be it heavy mech, deathstar-type armies or hordes. He's got 15 vehicles, of which 5 has AV13, 2 are skimmers that can move flat-out 24" and all can move 18" if necessary. I wouldn't really care about pathfinders on an objective when I can have multiple tanks tank-shocking them off the objectives in just 1-2 turns of moving flat-out from my deployment zone. Battlewagons have the weakness of AV12 (or AV11?) side armor. You only need deploy in opposite corners to force them to split off, thus denying half the army the KFF protection, and then shoot them at the sides. You stop deathstar units like draigowing paladins and others by screening them out. Sure I may lose 2 vehicles, but next turn, they're going to have to endure another turn of shooting from my entire army again. Volume of low-AP fire will just kill them, and there's only so much Draigo can soak up before he's dead as well. Besides, they'll be hitting the tanks on 6's if the BA general has any common sense at all.

Hordes? How does tank shocking them with 2 tanks and then flaming them with any of the 3 flamer-squads sound? Then you've got baals with 10-shots each and 2 typhoons with 4 frag blasts and 6 heavy bolter shots. As for the biker marines, who's got more deadly firepower? 12 meltas who can't shoot because they've just turbo-boosted to their graves? Or 14 lascannon shots, 16 -plasmas, 4 missile launchers and a plethora of heavy bolter, assault cannon, meltas, flamers and rapid-fire shots? Are you going to tell me that a majority of those bikers are still going to be standing after that?!? And heavy-mech (a la land raider-spam) can stay away and trade shots with a bunch of lascannons or come close and eat melta. All the while, the BA army is getting 5+/4+ cover.

Yes, it's not perfect. Fateweaver-daemons will give it some problem, as will other ultra-shooty MSU-type armies will (probably GK dread-spam, SW long-fang or TWC lists and perhaps IG but even these will not be easy battles). But it's a damn hard list to beat effectively. 90% of 40k builds will probably have problems against them.

And don't worry, I am not offended by any poster who wants to give constructive criticism. I see the reasons behind your arguments. You want to point out some of the weaknesses in the BA build. But where you see flaws, I don't really see them as any that this BA list cannot overcome. He could have outflanked the baals, but I think what he thought was more of a priority was to protect his other tanks. A wall of AV13 vehicles with cover is really hard to take down. He felt that to be much more important than to try to gain a little advantage from side shots at dreads (which BTW has the same side armor as their front). And with no way to bring them in early, he could risk them coming in the late game and not contributing at all. As for reserves, he and I are of the same thought. Better to bear your full firepower on the enemy than to do so bits at a time. With the resiliency of 5 AV13 vehicles with 4+/5+ cover, he stood a good chance of overcoming most opponents even if they were to go first. It was a gamble in strategy, but it wasn't a very risky gamble. It just happened that I rolled well and he didn't....again (the same thing happened to his Tau army the last time he played against me).

Basically, it boils down to this. He's got more guns than me and quite a bit of resiliency. He actually has more to gain probably 90% of the time in a straight shoot-out.

No offense, I read all your reports and you are a god player but your opponent played that list HORRIBLY, I mean even if the dice were average instead of horrible to him.

First, why did he roll everything on across the center? He gave you range with your entire army, when if he had gone 18 on his turn 1 instead of 6" (?!) lets say on your right flank and castled up, you would have lost line of sight (or range) with a size able portion of your force.
The way he came onto the table, hesitantly, with night fight rolls makes no sense to me, then later he split his force into what looked like 3 parts, again I am only stressing this because that is not a good practice game for you at all, a better player would not have given you all those money shots on your turn two...

Secondly, how on earth do you guys justify dreadnoughts climbing up into ruins?!?! where I play they wouldn't allow you to do that, Thats like saying your tanks can ram up onto other floors of those building in my opinion, maybe not that silly....but close... I am pretty sure that just because the terrain rules were glossed over in the rulebook they didn't intend on armless dreadnoughts climbing up crumbling buildings...

Again, I know your list is competitive but that was so poorly executed I think you need to play that list again...

Any who I hope you make it through the tournament ending in 1st ; ) I think you have a strong couple of builds here.

To be fair, this was actually my opponent, SabrX's first time playing Blood Angels. He's always been interested in BA as the only MEQ army that he would probably try out. You can say that this was a "test" game for him to see if he wanted to go mech or DoA BA.

I think he came in through the center because:

1) To take advantage of the only 2 terrain where he can hide behind until it was his turn to shoot.

2) So that he could use his twin-linked plasmas as well. If he castled off in the corner, they would've been wasted.

3) Baals would've been wasted in the corners.

4) My dreads could've still got to him had he came in from the corners.

5) He under-estimated the power of 8 psycannon shots.

6) He was confident of the resiliency of his AV13 wall of tanks with cover.

7) He started off playing more cautious than aggressive.

8) Actually, I didn't really have LOS to most of his razorbacks due to them being behind buildings. The only vehicles I could really see were his AV13 preds.

9) This was his very first game with Blood Angels.


Overall, I didn't think his tactics were bad or anything. I just out-rolled him this game dice-wise. Plus, I had the experience factor.


And why can't dreads go up buildings? Please show me in the rules where it says they can't. Actually, I'll save you the time. Look on p.83 of the BRB (under Moving Within Ruins).

I may play this list again, but if I do so, it'll probably with my other Interceptor-GK list. Or I will probably play his competitive Deathwing with my purifiers.

Red Corsair wrote:No offense, I read all your reports and you are a god player but your opponent played that list HORRIBLY, I mean even if the dice were average instead of horrible to him.

First, why did he roll everything on across the center? He gave you range with your entire army, when if he had gone 18 on his turn 1 instead of 6" (?!) lets say on your right flank and castled up, you would have lost line of sight (or range) with a size able portion of your force.

Grey Knights are lethal at close range. If my forces extended too far, jy2 could easily pop my transports and assaults disembarked occupants. In mech vs. mech battle, one side tries to disable the other side's mobility or ranged fire power and then take full advantage of mobility. I attempted that, but my dice fell short.

In hindsight I probably should have focused my forces on the left flank. At the time, my firebase revolved around the two buildings, which did a splendid job blocking TLOS.

The way he came onto the table, hesitantly, with night fight rolls makes no sense to me, then later he split his force into what looked like 3 parts, again I am only stressing this because that is not a good practice game for you at all, a better player would not have given you all those money shots on your turn two...

This was also my first time playing Razorspam. I'm not accustomed to utilizing the fast vehicle's advantage in moving farther than normal vehicles.

I took risks for chance of greater rewards. I was counting on the Predators to weather out the shooting and obscure my Razorbacks. jy2's dice were hot. I didn't expect all 6 Predators to be gone in a couple of turns to shooting. 70% of the time I failed my cover saves. Turn 2, most of my Razorbacks missed. I'm no convinced TL-Lascanons are the way to go. jy2 effectively silenced my guns. Had it been closer to average, most of my Razorbacks wouldn't be stunned or weapon destroyed, and able to return fire.

Secondly, how on earth do you guys justify dreadnoughts climbing up into ruins?!?! where I play they wouldn't allow you to do that, Thats like saying your tanks can ram up onto other floors of those building in my opinion, maybe not that silly....but close... I am pretty sure that just because the terrain rules were glossed over in the rulebook they didn't intend on armless dreadnoughts climbing up crumbling buildings...

That's just how we play it. I can't speak for the vast majority, but walkers moves in terrain like infantry and as long as it can fit, it's fair game. You'll find real world logic fails in 40k table top game. It doesn't make much sense that a Leman Russ could fire point blank and have it's shot scatter back on top of it. It doesn't make much sense that snipers (except for telion and Vindicarre) can't select and pick off their targets. It doesn't make sense that in assault, casualty can be removed in the back rather than in the front. It doesn't make sense that a Space Marine can leap high into the air and wack a Valkyrie high off the ground with a powerfist. See where I'm going with this?

Overall, I think jy2 did an excellent job this game. There aren't many armies out there that can outgun Purifier/Psyrifle Dread list. jy2's list passed the Razorspam list with flying colors.

I think the Blood Angels list is definitely one that Grey Knights should fear on paper. Lots of plasma and lots of melta and lots of lascannon. I thought both players made intelligent use of smoke and cover. I do think the Blood Angels should probably have moved in faster (which seems counter-intuitive as the GK are the 'mid-range' army, but I think a lot of 'best play with/play against GK' is actually counter-intuitive, or rather counter-prevailing doctrine) to unload and use the melta and offer a mix of close range and long range threats and generally try and get the GK player to spread his fire. It's possible that a converging attack from the Blood Angels with half their vehicles deployed on either side of their board edge might have helped. Getting first turn was, I think, a significant advantage and the dice did seem to go with jv2 and against SabrX (but you have to cater for bad dice as much as you can). In the end, Sabr X did move in, but I think it was delayed too long (it is, however, very easy to win the game with hindsight).

Thanks for another great report -- and it's always nice to have both players chipping in.

Yeah, the BA army definitely is scary on paper. It's also actually kind of scary on the tabletop too. It does suffer from the Parking Lot syndrome, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing considering the mobility that it has. While more experienced players can exploit that with savvy tactics (such as attacking from a flank and using the opponent's own vehicles for cover and to deny LOS), mech-BA is probably the only other army besides DE/mechdar that wouldn't be bothered that much as they can more easily redeploy with minimal loss of firepower.

To play it differently from what he had would have required experience that he did not have yet (though SabrX is a good player, this was only his first game with BA ever). Common sense tactics would dictate him to stand and shoot because his list is first and foremost a very shooty army. Also, basic tactics would tell him to stay away from my psycannons and also out of range of my assaulting purifiers. What non-assaulty army would want to rush into the arms of force-weapon-toting grey knights? It wasn't until he found that his tactic was not working did he rush in, but by that time, it was too little too late. The damage was already done to his army. I don't think his tactics were off-based. I do think that the dice did skewer the results somewhat. Had it been more average, this game would probably have been much closer. I just created a hurdle that he just couldn't overcome. I mean, 5 AV13 predators with cover destroyed in basically just 2 turns?!? While I have confidence in my shooting, even I didn't expect that.

I do think the idea of splitting his forces into 2 and coming in from opposite corners is definitely a viable one. And against a fast army (a la battle-wagon orks, nob bikers or TWC space wolves), that is definitely something I would have considered. But how that tactic would work against my army? I don't think it would have made too much of a difference, because my army is the type of army that would just happily sit there and trade shots with my 48" autocannons. Then I would have just moved 3 units of purifiers to within psycannon range of each flank, sat them down and traded shots.

1st turn can be mitigated with clever deployment. Even though my opponent went 2nd, he came in in such a way that I couldn't really target his razors. The only thing that I could really shoot at were his AV13 tanks with cover, which was what he wanted. Honestly, my first turn of shooting wasn't really awesome. I just shook 3 of preds (2 baals), immobilised 1 and weapon destroyed the other. I didn't wreck any tanks yet. Then on his turn, his shooting stank as he missed with most of his razors. What really changed the tide of the game was my phenomenal shooting on turn 3 as I wrecked 4 preds and suppressed the shooting of some of his other vehicles.

I have one more (maybe 2 if we can fit both games in) practice game against SabrX tomorrow. Will let you guys know how that turns out.

A great batrep as usual. The sheer number of psycannons each turn, especially those that were able to get heavy classification due to not moving a few Rhinos, is really hard to stand up against. Good use of smoke and positioning to force him into your kill zone. I always learn a few new tricks from reading these batreps haha.

I think I can speak for more then myself that it is more easily justified that those dreadnoughts cant move up into the ruins, I hate when people try and say, "40k is a future game don't try and use logic or reasoning", that is a case of sheer idiocy. The examples you gave are not near the park in this case, those were a streamlining of the game in order to speed the game flow up, armless, or even any dread running up floors is stupid, I have let dreads start up on impassible before because its fair to imagine a thunder hawk placing it there prior to the conflict, but the opponent agreed it had to remain there. GW has also said that the rules don't cover every case and to use common sense when such scenarios arise or a die roll.... I don't think I am the only one who think that didn't merit a die roll and common sense would prevail... Again you two can justify it however you want, but I wouldn't count on using such a play outside your play group, so my suggestion was merely to prepare you for disappointment if a TO says "sorry pal no chance".

I don't want you to misinterpret my statement and think I am trying to be a jerk, I think it was a well played game by Jy2 (sorry SabreX) and you should have gotten the W without "mystical climbing dreads" ; )

Too SabreX, it's tough that it was your first launch of the list and not his first with his, I say you play your DeathWing death star and reapply some hate ; )

Also I would like to see you guys play the second scenario if it's up to a vote as I haven't seen anyone on here try it yet...

As jy2 said, it's in the rules. 'Only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and WALKERS may move on the upper levels of a ruin.'

So there's no 'I wouldn't count on using such a play outside your play group' involved, It is rules sanctioned.

Ok, first off, that terrain could be argued as impassible to his walkers considering his entire base doesn't fit on the floor if you want to be technical... but now go look at the images and explain how he got to the third floor in two turns from his table edge..... I am all ears, or eyes I guess lol...

Well each level is 3”. So to reach the third floor (or second storey as we in the civilised world would say...) requires 6”. He’s had two turns move and one turn’s run. Jv2 moved and (presumably ran) turn 1. Look at the dreadnought’s position in the photo. It’s consistent with a 6” move and a run roll of about 3”. Turn 2, dreads move up the ruins. Maybe he rolled a 6 on e one of his moves-through-cover. Or maybe he ran second turn too. Either way, it’s entirely possible.

Basically I think you're stretching here. The rule says quite clearly 'if the model can be physically placed'. clearly it could, there's nothing about base overlapping. In fact the photo of the jetbike on p83 of the rulebook clearly shows its base overhanging the terrain level. You're reaching to defend your supposition, not RAW or RAI. RAW and RAI it's legal placement. By the rules the moves are possible. I suggest that perhaps you should rethink your position.

Stormcrow wrote:A great batrep as usual. The sheer number of psycannons each turn, especially those that were able to get heavy classification due to not moving a few Rhinos, is really hard to stand up against. Good use of smoke and positioning to force him into your kill zone. I always learn a few new tricks from reading these batreps haha.

Thanks. Honestly, even I under-estimated how my psycannons would do. They've never done this much damage before. And if my batreps can help people with their game, then I'm glad. It's more motivation for me to keep churning out battle reports - to be able to help the 40k community on the whole.

Red Corsair wrote:
Also I would like to see you guys play the second scenario if it's up to a vote as I haven't seen anyone on here try it yet...

We will definitely play scenario #2 as that is the only I haven't played yet.

Artemo wrote:As jy2 said, it's in the rules. 'Only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and WALKERS may move on the upper levels of a ruin.'

So there's no 'I wouldn't count on using such a play outside your play group' involved, It is rules sanctioned.

Thanks for the rules quote. It's on p. 83 by the ways for those interested.

What I don't understand is why bikers, beasts and cavalry can't go up ruins? Sometimes, GW rules do boggle the mind.

Red Corsair wrote:Ok, first off, that terrain could be argued as impassible to his walkers considering his entire base doesn't fit on the floor if you want to be technical... but now go look at the images and explain how he got to the third floor in two turns from his table edge..... I am all ears, or eyes I guess lol...

If you want to play any ruins as impassable, it needs to be declared so at the beginning of the game. We didn't declare any of the terrain as impassable.

To to get him there, I moved, ran well and then moved 6" up the ruins. The ruins was a little less than 6" from my board edge. You only need 3" to make it to the next level of the ruins. I rolled a 6" for my movement so was able to move up 2 levels of ruins.

It may seem cheesy to some, but it really isn't. It's actually a legal tactic in the rulebook (moving walkers up ruins) and isn't even against the spirit of the rules to do so. Now if your group wants to play it that dreads can't move up ruins, that's fine. Just realize that it is your gaming group that is playing with a house-rule and not others.

I can see than manhandling bikes up steps/ladders would be so difficult as to be effectively impossible and cavalry for similar reasons (it would be damn near impossible to ride or even lead a horse up a steep flight of stairs in normal circumstances, never mind a battle). Beasts (of at least some sorts) rather less so (and actually some cavalry I could see climbing too, or stairs at least, if not ladders). But the whole thing's abstract enough that specific justifications ar easy to come up with but would make the rules even more unwieldy (my thunderwolves can run up stairs but not ladders... cue argument over whether the ruin has stairs or not...)

I forgot to add, I find your battle reports (and also those of others in your group, not least SabrX), hugely entertaining and more informative than the typical after action report. Please keep posting them so long as you have the will to do so.

Hey, I've just found this report and in pleasantly surprised to find that your first list is very similar to my own. I was wondering how well you like your interceptors. I found mine to be kind of lack luster but I've only used them once. Also I understand the use of dozers on your rhinos but I'm curious as to why you didn't try hunter killer missiles instead. I've been contemplating using them to aid my dreads with popping vehicles in the first few turns. 20 TL str 8 shots plus a few unlimited range str 8 missiles could shoot down quite a lot of mech while you move those rhinos into psycannon range.

Ha ha ok really.... So according to you it makes more sense to have a refrigerator with legs, choad legs at that, and no arms mind you, climb?????? Did I here you say climb, apparently where you come from arms aren't a requirement for scaling walls... Yes I would say it isn't in the spirit of the game where I play and according to my TO he would have had to stay level.... that was all my point was, he isn't gonna play me (unless he travels to Maine ha ha).... Just so we are square I DO NOT CARE HOW YOU RULE IT WHERE YOU ARE FROM, it is your own prerogative, I was simply suggesting to him that if he has the fortune to qualify for the second round this year and plays outside his local play group, he may want to be prepared for that situation, this isn't an argument, and artemo thank you your point is well made also, but irrelevant to my own... He may well not run into the problems I was just trying to make him aware of. I myself have played in the second round three years straight and have had similar RAW and RAI issues with other TO outside my local group... That's it, period, if he doesn't want to take any of this into account then he is welcome not to, I thought I was dong him a solid...

Artemo.... seriously RAW and RAI? This isn't a court of law, an experienced tournament contender knows that its all up to the TO if there is any complaint and I have seen similar such calls made to that which I was suggesting, so no I don't think I will reconsider my position, thanks...

So by following the rules laid out in the rulebook you think he may have an issue with other wargamers?

"Hold on I'm not sure your Dread can climb"
"It's in the rulebook, page 83"
(Checks rulebook)
"Oh yeah...well I still think you shouldn't be able to, having no arms and all...JUDGE"

...I can see how that will turn out.

Not trying to be obnoxious, but this is what your argument amounts to.

Hi Red,

JY2 and many other players use the psy-dread in a ruin and psy-dread firing all weapons behind a rhino all the time. This makes about as little sense as me firing my Las-Cannon from the roof of a Storm Raven and claiming that I have line of sight, which I obviously don't. I don't know what IDIOT designer placed a las-cannon in such a way that it would have no chance of angling itself to hit almost anything on the board!? So what do I do, I argue that StormRavens, being a hovercraft, tip slightly on one side so the weapon can be used. Is it legal? No idea. But if I went by the way the craft is modeled I might as well forget it has a turret mounted gun! Same thing with the Dreadnoughts, can they fire behind a rhino or from the N-th floor of a ruin? I don't know but it probably doesn't matter in the long run anyways!

Thank you guys for posting the game! Why the two of you are playing Imperial Guard lists is absolutely beyond my comprehension but I hope I don't get to find out this Saturday!!!

Grey,
Thank you for at least seeing my point and not arguing and getting so highly offended as the others. I, again, was stating that the game provides several hiccups that quoting pages from the rulebook will not remedy and Luckas83, way to use the same argument and waste more hot air, I know what the rules states, but like Grey stated there are situations with current models and dex's that make for curious situations. The trouble with the current rules is they do a sloppy job with defining terrain, mainly because it varies so much, therefore it needs to be discussed prior to deployment, therefore it makes room for an opponent to contest...

I'm just saying this isn't one of those situations where the rules are unclear. By moving up area terrain with dreads you are simply following the rules. There is no case where this will cause an issue.

Yes terrain needs to be discussed before the game, but that seems like a pretty sensible thing to do. There's no need to get worked up about it.

Let's take rules (non-)disputes off to YMDC, please. Nothing to be gained by continuing to drag the conversation off in that direction.

I need more people to vote for list #2; list #1 is scarier for my 'bugs.

Good point. I actually haven't voted yet or named a list which I think you should take.

I say list #1. You have experience with it which in the tournament scene counts for a lot. It's also proven to be extremely competitive.

List # 2 also looks scary but lack of experience plus expensive marines on foot is something I would avoid. Any successful wounds means an armour save...an armour save you could fail. Taking more AV means less armour saves over the course of the game.

Artemo wrote:I can see than manhandling bikes up steps/ladders would be so difficult as to be effectively impossible and cavalry for similar reasons (it would be damn near impossible to ride or even lead a horse up a steep flight of stairs in normal circumstances, never mind a battle). Beasts (of at least some sorts) rather less so (and actually some cavalry I could see climbing too, or stairs at least, if not ladders). But the whole thing's abstract enough that specific justifications ar easy to come up with but would make the rules even more unwieldy (my thunderwolves can run up stairs but not ladders... cue argument over whether the ruin has stairs or not...)

I forgot to add, I find your battle reports (and also those of others in your group, not least SabrX), hugely entertaining and more informative than the typical after action report. Please keep posting them so long as you have the will to do so.

That makes logical sense, though one may argue walkers may be too big to go up normal stairs and may definitely have problems climbing ladders as well. I mean we're talking about 2-ton behemoths here who would probably collapse the already fragile remnants of some old stairs in some decrepit ruins. Oh well, it's their rules. I just play by it.

And thanks. I'm glad people find my reports informative as well as entertaining. I'll keep on posting battle reports, but after the Ard Boyz, I may have to take a little break as I am starting to get really busy at work.

l0k1 wrote:Hey, I've just found this report and in pleasantly surprised to find that your first list is very similar to my own. I was wondering how well you like your interceptors. I found mine to be kind of lack luster but I've only used them once. Also I understand the use of dozers on your rhinos but I'm curious as to why you didn't try hunter killer missiles instead. I've been contemplating using them to aid my dreads with popping vehicles in the first few turns. 20 TL str 8 shots plus a few unlimited range str 8 missiles could shoot down quite a lot of mech while you move those rhinos into psycannon range.

Hey, I think I commented on your army list before. Yeah, the purifier-dread build is a very competitive GK build like SW long fang-spam or mechguards with veterans, vendettas and manticores. You're probably going to see a lot of similar lists among competitive GK players.

I love my interceptors. I haven't really used them that much, so I don't think I've found their "sweet spot" in terms of how to best use them yet....but I've got some theories I want to try out. But overall, I love their mobility and potential.

Hunter-killers are expensive for a 1-time use weapon. For their points, you can instead get a razorback with psybolt ammo which IMO would be a much wiser investment. Besides, S8 AT is something the knights are definitely not lacking.

Red Corsair wrote:Ha ha ok really.... So according to you it makes more sense to have a refrigerator with legs, choad legs at that, and no arms mind you, climb?????? Did I here you say climb, apparently where you come from arms aren't a requirement for scaling walls... Yes I would say it isn't in the spirit of the game where I play and according to my TO he would have had to stay level.... that was all my point was, he isn't gonna play me (unless he travels to Maine ha ha).... Just so we are square I DO NOT CARE HOW YOU RULE IT WHERE YOU ARE FROM, it is your own prerogative, I was simply suggesting to him that if he has the fortune to qualify for the second round this year and plays outside his local play group, he may want to be prepared for that situation, this isn't an argument, and artemo thank you your point is well made also, but irrelevant to my own... He may well not run into the problems I was just trying to make him aware of. I myself have played in the second round three years straight and have had similar RAW and RAI issues with other TO outside my local group... That's it, period, if he doesn't want to take any of this into account then he is welcome not to, I thought I was dong him a solid...

I know you mean well and was just trying to point out something you think we did wrong. At the same time, there are a lot of readers here and some of them are probably not too familiar with the rules. I just want them to know how it is played according to what the rulebook says. How anyone else justifies the rules, whether they think it is right or not, isn't really the main point of these batreps.

You've said your thoughts. I've voiced mine. Now let's move on to some more battle reports, shall we?

Grey Therion wrote:
Thank you guys for posting the game! Why the two of you are playing Imperial Guard lists is absolutely beyond my comprehension but I hope I don't get to find out this Saturday!!!

You kind of lost me there. I'm taking my grey knights and it's looking more and more like it's going to be my purifiers.

Janthkin wrote:Let's take rules (non-)disputes off to YMDC, please. Nothing to be gained by continuing to drag the conversation off in that direction.

I need more people to vote for list #2; list #1 is scarier for my 'bugs.

Oh Janthkin! I'm afraid of your bugs, considering that they are only 1 of 2 armies that almost tabled my purifiers!

Are you still bringing your genestealer nids knowing that you can't infiltrate them? Or do I have the feeling I'll be seeing 30 ymgarls popping out of terrains? At least you don't have to worry about librarians and Sanctuary from me.

Lukus83 wrote:Good point. I actually haven't voted yet or named a list which I think you should take.

I say list #1. You have experience with it which in the tournament scene counts for a lot. It's also proven to be extremely competitive.

List # 2 also looks scary but lack of experience plus expensive marines on foot is something I would avoid. Any successful wounds means an armour save...an armour save you could fail. Taking more AV means less armour saves over the course of the game.

Yeah, list #2 is something I want to try, but without any experience with it whatsoever, I think it may tank. I don't think I'll take top3 with that list, but I think I'll have a blast playing it. One of my main concerns with it though is that I have a tendency to fail LD9 tests all the time.

I think expectations are high for list #1. With that list, I'd be disappointed if I didn't advance to the Semi's. I'm definitely very comfortable with it, and I think it is more balanced than my interceptor list. If I really want to win, then this is definitely the list to take. Judging from the readers and the poll, it's looking more and more like I really want to win.

I'd really like to hear your theories on how to fully utilize the Interceptors. Right now I'm operating under the assumption that they should be more of a harassing unit that can move around to get shots on side/rear armor and when the game is about to end use the shunt ability to contest an objective.

A preview of tomorrow's Practice Ard Boyz matchup:


2500 Dark Angels Deathwing

Belial - TH/SS

5x Deathwing #1 - 2x LC's, 2x TH/SS, 1x Chain Fist + Cyclone Missile Launcher
5x Deathwing #2 - 2x LC's, 2x TH/SS, 1x Chain Fist + Cyclone Missile Launcher
5x Deathwing #3 - 2x LC's, 2x TH/SS, 1x Chain Fist + Cyclone Missile Launcher
5x Deathwing #4 - 2x LC's, 2x TH/SS, 1x Chain Fist + Cyclone Missile Launcher
5x Deathwing #5 - 2x LC's, 2x TH/SS, 1x Chain Fist + Cyclone Missile Launcher
5x Deathwing #6 - 2x LC's, 2x TH/SS, 1x Chain Fist + Cyclone Missile Launcher

5x Deathwing #7 - 2x LC's, 3x TH/SS, 1x Cyclone Missile Launcher (these guys are Elite choices)
5x Deathwing #8 - 2x LC's, 3x TH/SS, 1x Cyclone Missile Launcher
5x Deathwing #9 - 2x LC's, 3x TH/SS, 1x Cyclone Missile Launcher

Land Speeder Typhoon - Multi-melta
Land Speeder Typhoon - Multi-melta
Land Speeder Typhoon - Multi-melta


Wow! That's 45 assault terminators with 9 cyclone missile launchers! Do I have a chance? Thoughts?


BTW, we will be playing Scenario #2, the modified Seize Ground.

l0k1 wrote:I'd really like to hear your theories on how to fully utilize the Interceptors. Right now I'm operating under the assumption that they should be more of a harassing unit that can move around to get shots on side/rear armor and when the game is about to end use the shunt ability to contest an objective.

I play them as a harassment unit as well, normall with 2 psycannons, 1 hammer and psybolt armmo in a 10-man squad. They are fragile so you want to protect them. When you move them, alwasy make sure they have some type of cover, especially if the opponent has a lot of anti-MEQ shooting. If you have a librarian, trail a few interceptors so that they are in range to receive the protection of the librarian's Shrouding as well as the offensive aid of Might of Titan. And the best thing to do is to flank them so that they aren't facing the enemy head-on. They are fragile and cannot take too much firepower. All in all, how you use them will depend on how many interceptors are in your army and also the composition of your opponent's army.

I think your considerable lack of AP1 and AP2 fire will be something of a handicap. His Typhoons are not going to last long (and are worth getting rid of so they can’t damage your dreadnoughts) but 9 squads of terminators featuring a lot of 3++ saves is going to be tricky to kill in melee as well as in shooting. I wouldn’t be too worried about the cyclones (though they’ll do some damage) but I fear your purifiers won’t be able to eliminate enough terminators by shooting or melee (and I suspect they’ll deep strike en masse, aiming to take a turn’s fire and then assault in the following turn if you haven’t assaulted them. If you keep your distance, they’ll wreck your transports with their cyclones. I think you have to mass assault one or two of his squads with most of yours to win in melee... this one will be pretty tough.

Great reports, I think Deathwing will crush you in Mission 2 unless you can roll all 6's to wound with your psycannons. I'm running a very elite GK army for Ard Boyz so thanks for writing up your theory and reports, it's very helpful.