Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm going to go with Flying and some sort of Template (fire breath) attack. Look! I'm a rumor monger.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Chaos =/= Random.

Chaos = lack of order which is best represented in game by random events or mechanics which give unpredicatable results.

As opposed to open defiance and rebellion against the Emperor's 'order' and the Imperium of Man?

You're telling me that the rebels should clearly have their entire ruleset riddled with random fething events to represent 'chaos'? Isn't the fact they're in open rebellion against the established order of humanity sufficient enough to warrant their name, hmm?

They arent called Rebel Space Marines. They're called Chaos Space Marines.

cha·os
   [key-os]

noun
1.
a state of utter confusion or disorder; a total lack of organization or order.

Which is not the same thing as random.

This is copied straight from the latest Rogue Trader book:

Chaos does not mean Random
When daemons manifest in real space, they often appear little more than killing machines, seeking to destroy and keep destroying for as long as they are able. However, this doesn’t mean a daemonic incursion is without real meaning or goals. Individual daemons may run rampant, but often the attack has a greater purpose. Game Masters can use this to present any number of challenges to characters in a Rogue Trader campaign.

Even if we use "chaos" instead "Chaos" to look for some greater understanding of how they should play "chaos" the word does not mean random, it means disorganized, it means confusion... GW choice of the word "chaos" is more in refrence to its existential meaning of the formlessness that predated the existence of the ordered universe. Chaos is not random, its formless, its confusing in its apparent disorganization. It is represenetative of the many seemingly disparate factions that fight each other but can form a unified threat.

It generally means anarchy as well

If these rumours are true, then this will be the most underwhelming thing I've ever seen since Jimmy Carter's inaugaration speech!!! (I was a young lad then)

The absence of cult terminators is one thing, but as usual, the CSM codex will be all the legions and gods crammed into one book, whilst the Imperium get their usual one hundred 'dexes of Black Templars( probably the most boring chapter out there) Blood Angels, Sisters, Wolves, Dark Angels etc etc.

And as usual, a 10,000 year old Chaos veteran will still be inferior to his loyalist counterpart who is barely out of nappies/diapers!!!

And as usual, a 10,000 year old Chaos veteran will still be inferior to his loyalist counterpart who is barely out of nappies/diapers!!!

To be fair they aren't really 10,000 years old. Time just flows differently in the warp. I don't know why every Chaos player has this sense of entitlement that their standard guys should have better combat stats than loyalists. We could easily make the opposite argument that CSM should actually be inferior since their present day recruits are wacky malformed daemonculaba clone babies with various defects.

I look forward to the Chaos release. It's got a lot of potential and I hope that if they've left the Daemons for good they're going to expand heavily on the human auxilia, mutant and daemon engine side.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:If these rumours are true, then this will be the most underwhelming thing I've ever seen since Jimmy Carter's inaugaration speech!!! (I was a young lad then)

The absence of cult terminators is one thing, but as usual, the CSM codex will be all the legions and gods crammed into one book, whilst the Imperium get their usual one hundred 'dexes of Black Templars( probably the most boring chapter out there) Blood Angels, Sisters, Wolves, Dark Angels etc etc.

And as usual, a 10,000 year old Chaos veteran will still be inferior to his loyalist counterpart who is barely out of nappies/diapers!!!

I agree entirely with your last sentence.

I agree with Therion. They haven't all been alive for 10,000 years in their perspective. For them, it may have been 10 minutes, 10 years or 1,000 years.

pretre wrote:They haven't all been alive for 10,000 years in their perspective. For them, it may have been 10 minutes, 10 years or 1,000 years.

Which puts some of them ahead of Chapter Masters in terms of experience. Add to that the fact that the Warp is literally Hell and you end up with an army that may have archaic weapons and armour patterns (and in a setting where these are considered superior to more modern weapons it makes me scratch my head why they literally get no benefit from it) and a lot more combat experience than their loyalist counterparts and several of them had fought in the presence and against the tactics of the Primarchs themselves.

To be honest, if Cultists/Mutants are included I should hope the CSMs become more of an elite sort of choice. So people can field hordes of cultists with a solid core of elites or go for an all elite strike force option.

combat engineer wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
And as usual, a 10,000 year old Chaos veteran will still be inferior to his loyalist counterpart who is barely out of nappies/diapers!!!

I agree entirely with your last sentence.

By the flow of time in normal time and space, he maybe 10,000 years old but to the individual Chaos veteran, the Heresy could just as easily have been yesterday as it could have been a 1000 years ago. I agree with the sentiment that Chaos marines in general are more veteraned and longer lived than loyalists, but that it isn't this great gulf of difference between the two. The big 4 retained some of the greatest degree of cohesiveness after the Heresy and this is why their basic troops are Elites. Meanwhile the other legions had fragmenting in which those with enough power or the sentiment that they deserved it, went off and formed up under a warlord. Once again these are the "elites" and veterans who insulate themselve and build a power base by inducting mutants, cultists, ex-loyalist marines in to their ranks, thus why the basic troop choices better represent those things.

DarkStarSabre wrote:To be honest, if Cultists/Mutants are included I should hope the CSMs become more of an elite sort of choice. So people can field hordes of cultists with a solid core of elites or go for an all elite strike force option.

It could certainly be interesting; quite often in fluff individual CSM will command significant personal cultist forces, even entire planets or systems.

Anything new on the BOLS post about chaos that they just posted?? BOLS is blocked at work for me. Not sure if thats fu pah to ask, if so my bad. If not could someone update the thread with the news that they provided?? Please? and thank you.

The BOLS post is a repost of the original.

Bring back the hard to kill 1,000 Sons Marines and I will be overjoyed to embrace the Dark Gods again.



Speaking of which, are these all plastic, or still plastic and metal ?

A link to the old thread might be prudenent so we can see the old rumers. A complete inclusion of them might just make the OP clutered. NTM this way we can see what the newest rumers are.

I'll link them in the OP:

Old Legions Thread - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/442076.page
Old 6th/Chaos Thread -
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/445790.page
Chaos Codex in May -
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/433044.page

pretre wrote:I'm going to go with Flying and some sort of Template (fire breath) attack. Look! I'm a rumor monger.

That was just a little childish. A lot of people that bring rumors are hit with far too much criticism. In a realm where GW doesn't want to release any information, it can be tough and even sometimes risky to release any information, and sometimes the best that a rumor monger can hope for is a bunch of flakk for bringing what they've found to the table. Show a modicum of gratitude, else the internet rumor system will dry up as rumor mongers don't want crap in their face when they share their little secrets.

Speaking of secrets, I managed to speak to my own rumor source a little. Here's what he had to say...

[rumor]

There'll be a new terminator kit, 2 new named SC's (one is referenced in a BL book, though it's yet to be seen if it's a BL character or merely a reference), and the chaos flier (there may be more than one) is more in line with the FW Hellblade/Helltalon kits. When I asked about the 'daemon mechanical dragon' he said 'oh, so it's like a flying soulgrinder?' Either my source didn't know much about this particular kit, or he was alluding to it being a Chaos Daemons flier instead of a Chaos Marines one.

[/rumor]
[speculation]

I didn't get any release date information. I only got the quip, "It's about to rain." when I first asked about CSM rumors that he might have for me. So far, that seems to be true with the other rumors that have been released.

What's exciting here is that there's a new Termie kit coming, and remember that 'no cult terminators' doesn't mean that cult troops may not be able to be upgraded with terminator armor. There simply may not be a separate entry for every kind of Terminator (ie, Noise Marines, Noise Marine Terminators, Khorne Berzerkers, Khorne Berzerker Terminators, etc). It'd make more sense just to squeeze the Terminator and other special weapons into one entry.

My source didn't seem to know a lot about the flying mechanical dragon. I even used the term 'harbinger' and that didn't ring a bell. He first told me that it would be called 'something-dragon' because of things like the Void Dragon (too many dragons?). It felt like I was giving *him* that rumor. I told him that the 'dragon' part was just a descriptor, and then we said at the same time 'like a flying Soul Grinder', and he dismissed it as something more likely to be seen in a Chaos Daemons Codex. What's important to note here is that even before I mentioned this, he mentioned that the flyer would be more in line with the Hellblade or Helltalon Forgeworld models. Honestly, this makes more sense to me. Leave the flying monstrous creatures to the Chaos Daemons in a White Dwarf entry. Chaos needs something mechanical, aeronautically sound, and sleek.

Lastly is the tidbit about the Special Characters. This goes against some other early rumors about 'no new special characters'. A while back, when I mentioned this to my source, he explained that it's more likely that there won't be any new special characters in the first wave of models, but that they'll come out with new ones in a subsequent wave of models (think of how the Necron special characters were spread out).

[/speculation]

I'm pretty excited about what could be coming. I'm still hesitant about the Eye of the Gods rules and it's not because of their randomness, it's because of how they're employed. If you get them in a challenge or against MC's or Walkers, your HQ has to be BEASTLY. We're talking about an infantry model that can take on a Walker or Monstrous Creature and WIN. This either means a lot of points sunk into an HQ, or some special rules that will give him an edge that other players will not be happy about.

And that means that these HQ's will probably be targetted by ranged firepower before they can get into close combat. Also, with challenge shenanigans that can occur, it's likely that your character will be ignored, left to fight non-character models (which he will probably slay) if the rewards of Eye of the Gods is potent enough. If the Eye of the Gods benefits ARE NOT potent enough, then the opposing player can just feed you some P. Fist sarges and let their own HQ's trounce whatever other squad you throw your HQ in.

Finally, there's the issue of Codex Creep. Let's say that with the Eye of the Gods benefits, and HQ's being awesome in challenges in the CSM Codex, that just when CSM comes out, we're ruling the challenge realm. Well, it'll just be a matter of time before another Codex comes out that makes all those rules pointless for CSM because they'll be better at Challenges and have better walkers and MC's that will make the Eye of the Gods stuff pointless to try and pursue. Then there's a chunk of a Codex that withers away and becomes irrelevant, exactly what has happened with the current CSM Codex.

For these reasons I'm apprehensive. It's less about the randomness and more about the strategic implications. Obviously, it's still too soon to draw any conclusions, and I'll be going in with both eyes open and a hope that the end product is better than I expect.

drbored wrote:That was just a little childish. A lot of people that bring rumors are hit with far too much criticism. In a realm where GW doesn't want to release any information, it can be tough and even sometimes risky to release any information, and sometimes the best that a rumor monger can hope for is a bunch of flakk for bringing what they've found to the table. Show a modicum of gratitude, else the internet rumor system will dry up as rumor mongers don't want crap in their face when they share their little secrets.

First off, of course it was childish, it was a joke. Secondly, I support rumor mongers providing real information and appreciate them for it. I don't appreciate folks who bring garbage to the table and want us to think it is gourmet fare.

Speaking of secrets, I managed to speak to my own rumor source a little. Here's what he had to say...

I'll add this to the OP and the Ongoing Rumor Tracking thread.

pretre wrote:

drbored wrote:That was just a little childish. A lot of people that bring rumors are hit with far too much criticism. In a realm where GW doesn't want to release any information, it can be tough and even sometimes risky to release any information, and sometimes the best that a rumor monger can hope for is a bunch of flakk for bringing what they've found to the table. Show a modicum of gratitude, else the internet rumor system will dry up as rumor mongers don't want crap in their face when they share their little secrets.

First off, of course it was childish, it was a joke. Secondly, I support rumor mongers providing real information and appreciate them for it. I don't appreciate folks who bring garbage to the table and want us to think it is gourmet fare.

Thanks for the clarification. I apologize if I seemed hostile in my retort, I've seen too many jerks barfing on the rumor mongers (the good ones) that stretch their necks out to bring us the information that I'm currently addicted to!

What really does irk me though is when a self proclaimed rumormonger hits the rumor reverb button without doing proper research or reading through some of the older rumor stuff. It's like they intentionally go to page 10 of a forum website, read through the first posts of a locked 100 page rumor post, and then bring all that up pretending it's fresh material.

drbored wrote:What really does irk me though is when a self proclaimed rumormonger hits the rumor reverb button without doing proper research or reading through some of the older rumor stuff. It's like they intentionally go to page 10 of a forum website, read through the first posts of a locked 100 page rumor post, and then bring all that up pretending it's fresh material.

That is kind of annoying. They try to lend credibility to their garbage by rehashing someone else's. Yuck.

drbored wrote:
Speaking of secrets, I managed to speak to my own rumor source a little. Here's what he had to say...

I don't buy new Terminators for one second, unless it's something like assault Terminators for Chaos. The current Chaos Terminator kit is good and fairly recent.

danant wrote:

Blitza da warboy wrote:
And if the only way I can get PM, and 1K sons as troops is from a special character...someone is gonna die.

Which would be quite interesting, considering that most tournaments' rules forbid special characters. Perhaps a warlord with certain mark also unlocks cult troops? We will find out soon...

Well, if a warlord that would have a mark of nurgle would be able to unlock plague marines as troops...I shall be very happy then

But If I need typhus to unlock my plague marines who are from a different chapter/warband....

sennacherib wrote:(ducks when Blitza da warboy takes note of this)

Nah, I respect other peoples opinions in this forum (unless its in the off topic and involves naaziiis in spaaace!) Anyways, the problem that I have with special characters is that I like to have a fluffy army. However I cannot have a fluffy army if it involves me having to use Typhus or Ahriman or Kharn or Lucius. Another problem would be is if they would suck...like Fabius. Or if they are overpriced; like Huron.

However since none of us (well, almost) have seen any proof...there is still hope!

And don't make dreadnoughts crazed again!

Blitza da warboy wrote:Anyways, the problem that I have with special characters is that I like to have a fluffy army. However I cannot have a fluffy army if it involves me having to use Typhus or Ahriman or Kharn or Lucius. Another problem would be is if they would suck...like Fabius. Or if they are overpriced; like Huron.

However since none of us (well, almost) have seen any proof...there is still hope!

And don't make dreadnoughts crazed again!

I'm hoping some wires got crossed and you can just use a Lord with the appropriate mark to take any given cult troops as Troops rather than elites, like the 3rd edition codex. If you can't that's a bummer, but I'm hoping!

Also, Dreadnoughts better still be crazed! How being crazed manifests itself in-game should be different though. I like that they have an unpredictable element in them, but I'd like it to have more positives than negatives.

drbored wrote:That was just a little childish. A lot of people that bring rumors are hit with far too much criticism. In a realm where GW doesn't want to release any information, it can be tough and even sometimes risky to release any information, and sometimes the best that a rumor monger can hope for is a bunch of flakk for bringing what they've found to the table. Show a modicum of gratitude, else the internet rumor system will dry up as rumor mongers don't want crap in their face when they share their little secrets.

1.) You attacked the wrong person.
2.) We currently live in a time of mass fake rumours, see ghost21. People with no rumour post record claiming good sources for Black templars in May 2012 and Eldar vs. Necrons in the starter box and 5 pages of details of the new CSM Codex. A lot of this is deliberately made up to confuse us in times where real rumours are scarce. This made 75hastings69 almost rage quit the rumour business. No idea if GW itself distributes false rumours as well. Casual readers are confused, that's why pretre started a "rumour monger evaluation" thread.
3.) Even Harry got some flak when he dared to suggest a High Elf chariot drawn by White Lions. But his track record now makes him a trusted source. Post reliable rumours and you will also gain this trust.

Brother SRM wrote:Also, Dreadnoughts better still be crazed! How being crazed manifests itself in-game should be different though. I like that they have an unpredictable element in them, but I'd like it to have more positives than negatives.

Chaos Dreadnoughts get the Rage and Rampage special rules. Yay, I fixed them.

aka_mythos wrote:

combat engineer wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
And as usual, a 10,000 year old Chaos veteran will still be inferior to his loyalist counterpart who is barely out of nappies/diapers!!!

I agree entirely with your last sentence.

By the flow of time in normal time and space, he maybe 10,000 years old but to the individual Chaos veteran, the Heresy could just as easily have been yesterday as it could have been a 1000 years ago. I agree with the sentiment that Chaos marines in general are more veteraned and longer lived than loyalists, but that it isn't this great gulf of difference between the two. The big 4 retained some of the greatest degree of cohesiveness after the Heresy and this is why their basic troops are Elites. Meanwhile the other legions had fragmenting in which those with enough power or the sentiment that they deserved it, went off and formed up under a warlord. Once again these are the "elites" and veterans who insulate themselve and build a power base by inducting mutants, cultists, ex-loyalist marines in to their ranks, thus why the basic troop choices better represent those things.

It's possible that it could have been 10 years since the siege of terra or 100,000 years for any given CSM depending on how the warp treated him. It can make for a very small gulf of experience, or a very vast one. The big 4 did not retain their cohesion. The Emperor's Children and World Eaters are scattered. Typhus and Ahriman are the only "warlords" of the other two that actively campaign anymore; Magnus and Mortarion really couldn't care less about running the day to day affairs of their legion. The Black Legion is by far the most powerful and organized of the remaining legions. The Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion still operate in a more or less cohesive manner; the Word Bearers to a lesser extent. Finally, cult troops are elite because they have better stats than undivided CSM.

Brother SRM wrote:

drbored wrote:
Speaking of secrets, I managed to speak to my own rumor source a little. Here's what he had to say...

I don't buy new Terminators for one second, unless it's something like assault Terminators for Chaos. The current Chaos Terminator kit is good and fairly recent.

Agreed. No way in hell are the current Termies being replaced. If there is a second Termie box it will be something new (Cult Termies, Possessed Termies...?)

One thing that makes August an unlikely release date for the Chaos Marine Codex, is that you can still buy the current one. They've normally withdrawn it by now haven't they?

Flashman wrote:One thing that makes August an unlikely release date for the Chaos Marine Codex, is that you can still buy the current one. They've normally withdrawn it by now haven't they?

I've pretty much only seen that with the really old (3rd ed) codices and full game rulebooks; I've been thinking October but I'm just guessing out loud.