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I figured that a unit of 3 stormteks and a veiltek (for something like 135p) would be able to hurt a knight without giving up a solar pulse or destroyer lord. Combined with gauss fire that should help. Of course in order to really murder them in a round you will need two courts. Can still run two solar pulses in that list, but no destroyer lord for the wraiths.
Not too familiar with super heavies though. The blast may take them with it. And I am assuming haywire works against them.
So how do they fare in the near-optimal scenario where everyone with melta gets into melta range and fires at once?
(Calculations spoilered below; please point out any errors! Edited to fix error -- the real result is actually nastier to the Knight by half a glance. Many thanks to Mavnas for catching my mistake.)
Spoiler:
1. What shoots? The melta bombs don't come into play in shooting, obviously, and the Immolator can't move up with the Dominions, fire its multi-melta, and fire its hunter-killer missile, so only the Exorcist gets to fire its HK. Assume everything else gets to fire.
BZZAP BZZAP WHOOOSH WHOOSH WHOOSH BZZAP! (Uh, those are melta beam and missile launch sound effects, m'kay?)
2. What hits? That's 1d6 S:8 AP:1 but-not-melta Exorcist shots, also at BS4. Average of 3.5 shots, 67% hit = 2.345 hits. Also the Exorcist fires its hunter-killer missile, because why the feth not, so that's 0.67 hits at S:8 but only AP:3. So the Exorcist averages 3.015 S:8 hits, though not all will get the damage table bonus for AP:1.
The Dominions & co. give you 7 S:8 AP:1 melta shots: one at BS:3 w/ a 50% chance of hitting (the priest), 5 at BS:4 with a 67% chance (Dominions), and one twin-linked BS4 with an 89% chance of hitting (the Immolator). That gives you an average of 0.5 + 3.35 + 0.89= 4.74 hits.
Clearly the melta weapons are the much bigger threat, so any sane Knight player would have his Ion Shield pointed towards them, with a 50% chance to nullify a hit: We're down to 2.37 melta hits.
Assume the Exorcists' missiles are coming in more than 90 degrees offset from the Dominion squad, so they don't get cut down by the Ion Shield.
3. What hurts? But let's not get too confident about getting side angles, so let's say all our hits impact the front armour, also it's simpler this way and I'm tired: AV13.
The Exorcist: S:8 glances AV:13 on a roll of 5 and penetrates on a roll of 6, each of which happens 16.7 percent of the time: with 3.015 hits, that's average of 0.5 glances and 0.5 penetrations. (Let's assume it's the HK missile that doesn't penetrate so we don't have to worry about different AP values having different damage table modifiers; yes, that slightly favors the Exorcist here, but then we're also assuming it didn't get the side armour).
The meltas: S:8 melta glances AV:13 only 11.1 percent of the time, because you're rolling 2d6. 2.37 hits yield a whopping 0.26 glances. S:8 melta penetrates AV:13 on a 6+, which on 2d6 happens 72% of the time. (Yay, melta). 2.37 hits yield 1.7 penetrations.
So we're at a total of 0.76 glances and 2.2 penetrations. That's 2.96 hull points stripped right there -- the Knight, on average, is halfway to dead.
Then we get to roll twice on the vehicle damage table -- but only a "6: explodes!" result matters (boo, superheavy vehicles). But we get a +2 modifier (yay, AP1), which means a 4, 5, or a 6 actually get an "explodes" result: That's 50% of the time.
So on average, we Explode! once, and do an additional 1D3 damage: 1.52 hull points.
Total damage: 4.464.96HP.
The average result? Your Knight is still fighting at full capacity -- so we can expect some of our shooters to go away violently the next turn -- but it's down to only one Hull point1 or 2 HP remaining, more likely 1, and not long for this world.
Obviously getting all this melta within 6" of a Knight takes tactical skill (or an inept opponent) and decent luck. But this scenario also assumes the Sisters player only goes after the Knight with an equal points value force, not concentrating fire at all, which requires tactical ineptitude (or an adept opponent) and poor luck.
What's more, a Sisters list can afford one Exorcist and one Dominion-Immolator squad for each Knight it faces, and a take-all-comers Sisters army probably will because lots of Exorcists and Dominions is the currently favored build.
I'm not saying a Sororitas force can routinely wipe the floor with Knights, far from it: Their long-range firepower and melee brutality make them serious threats at the two ranges Sisters have the most trouble with, i.e. beyond 24" and within 1". I'm just saying that Sisters have a good chance of killing their own point value of Knights in a single round of shooting and a high probability of killing a single Knight if they get to concentrate fire on it.
Sisters are probably going to be the best at this, as J. Black said, thanks to all their Scouting/Outflanking meltaguns but I suspect most other armies can come up with a similar package of anti-armor firepower that can be used against Knights or other targets (i.e. you don't have to specialize in Knight-killing at the expense of everything else)
tl;dr: Knights? Awesome = yes. Unstoppable = no.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/12 17:32:51
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Conveniently, a Knight's 12'' movement gives it plenty of options for not being in 6'' melta range. Specifically, hover 18'' away. Either receive shots from 18'' (oh no!), or at 12'' (oh no!). Follow both by advancing twelve, shooting, and charging.
Getting to within 6'' of a Knight on your movement with a full-capacity squad takes just shy of a miracle unless it's deep striking.
They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear.
McManiak wrote: I was chatting with a friend about this. He has ordered 4 (works for GW so 50% helps). That us his 1490 list. 2 paladins and 2 errants.
That one line alone makes me want to work part time for GW for them savings!!!
Anyone who is married knows that Khorne is really a woman.
obsidiankatana wrote: Conveniently, a Knight's 12'' movement gives it plenty of options for not being in 6'' melta range. Specifically, hover 18'' away. Either receive shots from 18'' (oh no!), or at 12'' (oh no!). Follow both by advancing twelve, shooting, and charging.
Getting to within 6'' of a Knight on your movement with a full-capacity squad takes just shy of a miracle unless it's deep striking.
Remember the Sororitas Dominions can Scout (probably the best option if you get first turn) or Outflank (best if you go second). They can also drive up 6" in their Immolator, dismount 6", and shoot 6" -- which puts the target within melta range of the Immolator's multi-melta -- so that's an 18" total threat radius.
Knights are fast and hard to catch, definitely, but it's by no means impossible. Again, I'm arguing they're actually a better balanced unit than many people have been fearing.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Remember the Sororitas Dominions can Scout (probably the best option if you get first turn) or Outflank (best if you go second). They can also drive up 6" in their Immolator, dismount 6", and shoot 6" -- which puts the target within melta range of the Immolator's multi-melta -- so that's an 18" total threat radius.
Knights are fast and hard to catch, definitely, but it's by no means impossible. Again, I'm arguing they're actually a better balanced unit than many people have been fearing.
No doubt, the things aren't immortal. But I firmly believe any single squad short of a dedicated haywire squad cannot be relied upon to kill a knight. Even the Dominion, with their 18'' threat range on first turn (scouting). If I face off against them, I'm putting the Knight >24'' away and shooting until you get within 18''. Then doing the aforementioned, advance 12'' shoot and charge.
They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear.
Oh, absolutely, the Dominion-in-Immolator combo can't bring down a Knight by itself: It'll get one turn of shooting, strip some hullpoints, then die. It's multiple Dominions squads and/or Exorcists concentrating fire that are the threat.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Knights are fast and hard to catch, definitely, but it's by no means impossible. Again, I'm arguing they're actually a better balanced unit than many people have been fearing.
Exactly.
They would only seem to be game breaking if someone takes more than 2. Even then, if they run into an airforce they're in serious trouble.
As SisterSydney points out, I wasn't trying to argue that AS can just take knights in their stride and blow them up whenever the opportunity presents itself, just that the most common TaC lists will almost certainly have the firepower to deal with 1 (maybe even 2 )
I can't wait to fight against one of these things; tactical postioning will be extremely important. Assuming the knight player doesn't just sit back and blast away at range, they're going to be coming forward which just means you have to be careful with pre-measuring and make damn sure that wherever it goes to cause trouble it's going to be putting itself into a position where it will be threatened on multiple facings with S8 Ap1 firepower. This not only gives you a good chance at killing it (or wiping out a good portion of it's precious hull points) but kind of limits it's impact against the rest of your forces. I'm not normally a fan of splitting up my army (I like to play in a slightly distributed castle formation where all my units can support each other) but if facing one of these things i'd be sorely tempted to put an exorcist and a melta-Dom team on either side of the board and force it to either attack one of them - and expose it's side armour to the other - or try to play more carefully and reduce it to blasting away from range until it can safely advance (i.e. one side of my army has been neutralised).
Funnily enough, I think taking a knight against AS will just reduce your chances of winning! If you play an army with lots of ignores cover, ap2/3, medium to long range S7-8 firepower, and mobility, chances are that you were going to have a great chance of winning anyway as those are all pretty hard counters to any AS army.... taking a knight just wastes points that could have been better spent elsewhere. If you don't have those tools, the AS will melt your army and have all the tools to deal with that 400pt beast you brought along.
1500pts
Gwar! wrote:Debate it all you want, I just report what the rules actually say. It's up to others to tie their panties in a Knot. I stopped caring long ago.
A beatstick IC in a mid sized unit of 10 to 20 models should do the trick.
D weapon hits=allocate hits to peons. After 4 rounds of cc a 3a knight will only average 6 hits v equal ws or 8 hits v lower ws. draigo, Abby, or any IC with loads of high attacks like a chapter master. It will also require a chainfist, deamon weapon, or inquisitor with hammer hand to buff the hits up to s10 to wreck it as s8 not enough to rapidly wreck the knight.
stomps are over rated against a unit with a beatstick ic. First off allocate d weapon hits to the most clustered areas of peons. Against a 10 strong meq unit they won't get many hits. against a blob or zombie horde allocate stomps to decluster first, then start los the hits away from the beatstick or tank with a 2+ armor save. even with pile ins the 2nd round won's be as bad as the first. After 2 rounds of d weapon hits and the first round of stomps the 2nd and subsequent rounds of stomps shouldn't be that bad. The weakness of the plan is everything goes to gak if the 1 in 6 chance of str d stomps happens on round 1.
Knights should use their speed to avoid IC that can buff up to s10 hits or armorbane.
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
He get's D3 stomps, and that template can be placed over the IC, it specifically says models under the blast template. Stomp will kill IC.
Also, I think you can cast Endurance on it. Although I am unclear on rules of psychic powers and Super Heavy Walkers.
If you can then welp, enjoy playing against Invisible, It will not Die, and whatever else blessings can be cast on Super Heavy Walkers. I mean really all you need to do is get him Invisibility and that pretty much solves most of the problems. It has a 4+ I think Cover Save, Plus can choose a side for its shield and if you charge it you strike at WS 1
They're not broken on their own they become a little brokey when you can cast psychic buffs on them.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/03/12 16:37:08
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
You can't choose the order of stomps vs. normal attacks, initiative does that for you.
That said the most common stomp result is AP4... Not so scary to MEQ.
In the dominion + exorcist vs. knight scenario... You were off by .5 (average roll on a d3 is 2 not 1.5). Also if the knight shoots the exorcist it has <50% chance of exploding it then it charges a squad with two melta bombs in it, guaranteeing its own destruction?
I've not done the math on two melta bombs versus Giant Striding Machine of Death, but I'm not optimistic.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Mavnas wrote: You can't choose the order of stomps vs. normal attacks, initiative does that for you.
That said the most common stomp result is AP4... Not so scary to MEQ.
In the dominion + exorcist vs. knight scenario... You were off by .5 (average roll on a d3 is 2 not 1.5). Also if the knight shoots the exorcist it has <50% chance of exploding it then it charges a squad with two melta bombs in it, guaranteeing its own destruction?
Two melta bombs does not a guaranteed dead knight make. Not at all.
They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear.
Mavnas wrote: You can't choose the order of stomps vs. normal attacks, initiative does that for you.
That said the most common stomp result is AP4... Not so scary to MEQ.
In the dominion + exorcist vs. knight scenario... You were off by .5 (average roll on a d3 is 2 not 1.5). Also if the knight shoots the exorcist it has <50% chance of exploding it then it charges a squad with two melta bombs in it, guaranteeing its own destruction?
Two melta bombs does not a guaranteed dead knight make. Not at all.
Nope, but if you go back to SisterSydney's previous post.... you might see why it makes a difference
1500pts
Gwar! wrote:Debate it all you want, I just report what the rules actually say. It's up to others to tie their panties in a Knot. I stopped caring long ago.
Nope, but if you go back to SisterSydney's previous post.... you might see why it makes a difference
So, in a scenario where a Knight eats full melta fire from a squad inside melta range then voluntarily charges the full-count squad toting melta bombs, it will die. Sure. An extremely unlikely scenario, however.
They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear.
Nope, but if you go back to SisterSydney's previous post.... you might see why it makes a difference
So, in a scenario where a Knight eats full melta fire from a squad inside melta range then voluntarily charges the full-count squad toting melta bombs, it will die. Sure. An extremely unlikely scenario, however.
The point is that knight is probably dead without outside units saving it. If it fires at the squad, an exorcist and immolator will finish it, if it shoots at the vehicles, then there's an intact tank-murdering squad on the loose. Really it's best bet is to run away, try to blow up the immolator so the squad loses its transport and then play keep away, but a knight that's reduced to just shooting is a very crippled knight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think the real moral of the story is a Sisters of battle army facing a knight should try to pack a priest and and sister superior with melta bombs in every squad it can, and then not worry overmuch about knights.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/12 19:13:51
Yeah, Sisters are definitely nasty for Knights, if played skillfully. (I don't think I could pull it off...).
Now: can people who know other armies well come up with a comparable package of forces that can kill a Knight without being so specialized it's useless in a take-all-comers list?
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Nope, but if you go back to SisterSydney's previous post.... you might see why it makes a difference
So, in a scenario where a Knight eats full melta fire from a squad inside melta range then voluntarily charges the full-count squad toting melta bombs, it will die. Sure. An extremely unlikely scenario, however.
The point is that knight is probably dead without outside units saving it. If it fires at the squad, an exorcist and immolator will finish it, if it shoots at the vehicles, then there's an intact tank-murdering squad on the loose. Really it's best bet is to run away, try to blow up the immolator so the squad loses its transport and then play keep away, but a knight that's reduced to just shooting is a very crippled knight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think the real moral of the story is a Sisters of battle army facing a knight should try to pack a priest and and sister superior with melta bombs in every squad it can, and then not worry overmuch about knights.
I don't think you fully understand the capabilities of the Knight. It can shoot the squad with its primary weapon if it so chooses (double tap battle cannon, anyone?), target the immolater with a heavy stubber, then charge the immolater and crush it with a D weapon - extinguishing two targets. Alternative the errant will reverse these roles, shooting the immolater primary with the thermal cannon to cause the damage while shooting the sisters with a stubber and charging them. Therein lies the problem with depending on short-ranged weapons to kill a Knight - that means it's also in range.
They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear.
The heavily damaged knight charging the squad is exactly what that squad wants. It's losing 2-4 sisters and inflicting 2 wounds in return. The melta blast has about a 40% chance of killing the immolator assuming insufficient scatter to take the template off.
Mavnas wrote: The heavily damaged knight charging the squad is exactly what that squad wants. It's losing 2-4 sisters and inflicting 2 wounds in return. The melta blast has about a 40% chance of killing the immolator assuming insufficient scatter to take the template off.
What has heavily damaged it? 12'' movement. It can safely stay out of even multi-melta half-range until it wants to charge. 19'' is the golden range, proving for a 7'' charge (average of 2d6). Even easier for meltaguns. And that 40% chance is an infinitely better chance than the Sisters can hope for in destroying the Knight. Further, a stunned/shaken/weapon destroyed is almost just as good as destroying an Immolater (unless they have a secondary weapon, then you've a 50/50 shot of disabling the tank).
I repeat, short ranged weapons are not ideal for engaging Knights. Not unless they come in from deep strike. The Knight's mobility is a HUGE advantage.
They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear.
Yeah, I'm pretty skeptical of the "please charge me I have melta bombs" tactic.
It's totally worth the 5-10 points per squad to load up on them as a last resort for all sorts of targets, but if they're your primary anti-armour weapon -- let alone your primary anti-Knight weapon -- you're doing something wrong.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
canadianguy wrote: My sobs pack 3 exorcists, 18 mg and 6 tlmm at 2000 points. Bring on the knights not an army I fear.
You should be a knight army which would be 6 knights at that point level would wreck that army. Your MM is no threat as you will never be in range, and 12 battle cannon or 6/ large blast melta shots per turn is going to take exorcists pretty easily. The warlod knight has a 3++ dont forget about that.
Doms really are a nice answer to the imperial knights. They do good damage when in range and if the IK deploys way into the backfield to avoid them then it's damage output is definitely not 375 pts worth. Remember you get cover saves against it's weapons.
Another interesting way to deal with them would be 10 SoB units and a priest charging it or getting charged. The priest can use the reroll armour saves ability in the assault phase. The IK will do an average of 2 kills an assault phase if it didn't charge and ~2.6 on the charge. Taking ~3 game turns to break out against a relatively cheap unit will put a big damper on it and allow you to stretch your doms out further than otherwise.
ansacs wrote: Doms really are a nice answer to the imperial knights. They do good damage when in range and if the IK deploys way into the backfield to avoid them then it's damage output is definitely not 375 pts worth. Remember you get cover saves against it's weapons.
Another interesting way to deal with them would be 10 SoB units and a priest charging it or getting charged. The priest can use the reroll armour saves ability in the assault phase. The IK will do an average of 2 kills an assault phase if it didn't charge and ~2.6 on the charge. Taking ~3 game turns to break out against a relatively cheap unit will put a big damper on it and allow you to stretch your doms out further than otherwise.
The knight dosent get armor saves in CC. Also you are forgetting about the stomp, the stomp is what kills infantry. Infinarty weather it be melta guns or CC attacks just arent viable against the knight. Even if by the emperors mercy you some how kill it in CC it will exsplode in a str D large blast killing everything that killed it. Then you still have all the other knights to worry about.
canadianguy wrote: My sobs pack 3 exorcists, 18 mg and 6 tlmm at 2000 points. Bring on the knights not an army I fear.
You should be a knight army which would be 6 knights at that point level would wreck that army. Your MM is no threat as you will never be in range, and 12 battle cannon or 6/ large blast melta shots per turn is going to take exorcists pretty easily. The warlod knight has a 3++ dont forget about that.
Impossible to fit 6 knights in 2k.
They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear.
Okay fine enough talking about Sisters for feth's sake. Let's talk about all the other armies in the game and how they can deal with Knights without fielding ludicrously overspecialized lists or just taking superheavies of their own.
(Yes, I'm a Sororitas fan saying there's been too much emphasis on Sisters in a 40K discussion. Who'd have thought we'd ever see the day?).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/12 21:18:45
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
I'm not sure people are taking the ranges of the knight's weapons into account. We have a guy in our store who has three of them and he allies them with marines. Three of them, 18 HPs worth, have never been destroyed in any of our games. He doesn't need to be at the front edge of his deployment zone because the Paladin has a 72" range and the errant has a 36" range. It's not rocket science for the knight player to figure out if you rush a unit up to the knight that the unit is probably a threat. You're not going to face just one knight when it comes to shooting but probably all three (if that is even necessary). With ordinance 2, STR 8 AP 3 large blasts, he easily destroys MEQ units. Our knight player doesn't need to get in melee to do damage, the large blasts are more than sufficient. And don't forget the 500+pts of marines that fill the biggest weakness which is air defense. Fliers are the scariest thing for a knight player as the only weapon they have that can hit a flier is a heavy stubber (str 4, ap 6). As for objectives, if the Knight player brings three knights and camps them on the objective on turn 4 or 5 after he's killed all the big threatening units, there isn't much that can be done. Vector strike from Crones has done some damage, melta bombs have done some damage, I think he lost one knight in a game so far but they are mighty resilient, even with only having av 13 on front.
For me, as a necron player, for 100pts, I can bring 4 storm techs with assault 4 haywire attacks. The trick is getting them to combat (the 5th tech can be a despair tech, bumping the cost to 160pt). I can also bring doomscythes that the knight player can't shoot back that will get two str 10 hits as well as the (mostly ineffective) tesla destructor shots. I give up my barges for DS, and have to take two overlords for two royal courts, but the knights aren't impossible. And chances are I don't need to kill them all to win, it is an objective based game afterall. The downside is that I don't have a TAC list since I just spent 535pts on DS and 320pts on two RCs. Mind you, I haven't had a chance to use this list against the knight player, he is getting a lot of challenges at the moment.
You mean the AP 4 stomps vs rerollable 3+? I mean sure, you could certainly roll a 6 and autoremove some models, but the priest and superior could also pen with melta bombs...
Cheap fearless 3+ infantry fares pretty well against knights. Heavier infantry suffers from the D weapon removing more points per swing. 4+ units get almost auto-stomped.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Large blast should hit at most 3 marines at full spacing, right? Less if it scatters too much?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/12 21:41:34
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