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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/26 15:09:34
Subject: Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
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I'm facing a 'Nids/ Necrons alliance; should I use a LR Punisher?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/26 16:09:05
Subject: Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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No.
Short range plus lack of an AP really hurts the Punisher. A standard LR can fit the samme role with much more lethality and reliability.
L. Wrex
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/26 16:41:32
Subject: Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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No, use a standard battle tank or an executioner. The battle tank is better vs. necrons (hint: aim for the warriors) while the executioner is better for the nids (ap2 denies feel no pain on MCs, capable of putting out multiple wounds a turn). The executioner is also immune to gribbly assault with rear armor 11.
Don't forget to give the tank a hull heavy flamer, what ever else you do.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/26 16:41:35
Subject: Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Lycaeus Wrex wrote:No.
Short range plus lack of an AP really hurts the Punisher. A standard LR can fit the samme role with much more lethality and reliability.
L. Wrex
QFT^^^
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"But i'm more than just a little curious, how you're planning to go about making your amends, to the dead?" -The Noose-APC
"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/27 00:18:24
Subject: Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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CommissarCandlestick wrote:I'm facing a 'Nids/ Necrons alliance; should I use a LR Punisher?
Just get a regular one.
The only time you should use the Punisher is against green tide. Even then, there might be better options.
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There's just an acre of you fellas, isn't there? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/27 02:38:45
Subject: Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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I'll disagree with all of you. You should take a Punisher because not only will it munch all the infantry, it will devour the MCs both armies are plenty capable of spamming. I take a Punisher just because I want the torrent of fire without a blob squad's footprint, and it delivers.
Most people seriously overestimate the effectiveness of other blast templates because they are harder to quantify. You usually only get 3 or 4 models under a single large blast template, and often only 1 under a small. If you've got 4" acceptable scatter and BS3 you end up with about 66% accuracy. Then you're wounding 2+(83%) with the Battlecannon/Demolisher Cannon bringing you to 2.2 wounds, 1.1 after cover. You're usually bagging a single dude per large blast template, and 2 if they are standing in the open.
The Executioner has it worse. 66% accuracy with 3 shots bagging 1.5 model per, then wounding 2+ gets you 2.5 wounds, 1.25 after cover saves.
The Punisher gets 20 shots, 4+ to hit and 3+ to wound, leaving 6.6 wounds. Against MEQs it beats all the other tanks, getting 2.2 kills regardless of cover. Even if the other tanks get their targets out of cover, they only tie with the Punisher. Against Orks it rakes in 4.4 kills after the KFF. Against GEQs in cover it nabs 4.2 kills.
My experiences have mirrored this math, and I've got the battlereports if you want to read them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/27 14:46:39
Subject: Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Terrifying Wraith
Training sheep, Stocking Urchins.
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Get the punisher to deal with nids, but make sure you still have the points to deal with the necrons- prehaps a leman russ with a battle cannon.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/09/27 15:16:47
Subject: Re:Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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@DarkHound
I would not overestimate the punisher too.
1. Not every infantry is 2" spaced. Nec infantry will be, because they are little in Numbers. But Tyranids are mostly bunched together. But blast templates are indeed not the best weapons to fight tyranids. Blast templates are best used against mech where you blow up a transport and then blast it into the disembarked passengers.
2. multiple Flamers, heavy flamers and plasmaguns will be the most efficient weaponry. Sometimes ap2 or high strength blasts (hello executioner, demolisher, medusa, battlecannon, manticore^^) to ignore FNP. If you math against FNP or 2+ armour the punisher will seriously fail. It will put 1(!) average wound on a TMC with 3+ save it will put 1,5 wounds on t4 infantry with bad armour in cover with FNP and 2 wounds on T4 infantry with 3+ save (1 kill due to WBB). This is not really a weapon you will love...
3. I tried a squadron with 2 punishers. This is horribly expensive but is really reliable in finishing off small squads of any kind (except FNP and 2+ save and T6 upwards). It is a good overwatch unit in midfield. But a single punisher is just not killy at all.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/01 14:17:33
Subject: Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Horrific Howling Banshee
Hemel Hempstead
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Would Pask not be good against nids - bs4 and wound rerolls against mcs - or is he too pricey?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/01 14:48:42
Subject: Re:Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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@Darkhound: Those batreps are especially bad for blast weapons and low AP weapons. Bikers often have 3+ coversave, so AP doesn't matter as much, they have big bases so can spread out very easily, and they will close with you to use special weapons, so short range weapons is not a concern. In other words, it is an ideal set-up for the punisher.
Against more "normal" lists, especially mechanized or horde lists, units will be bunched up at various points of the game. Against such lists, assuming 1 hit for a small template and 4 for a large one is not accurate in my experience. My thunderfires have taken down hundreds of ork boys during the matches I've used them in. (and I've got bat reps too, check out the biker-report to see 4x small blast perform way better than a punisher ever could). Stuff get's bunched up because of terrain, because they are forced out of transports, because they have just been in close combat, because they just deep-struck etc. Proper target priority with blast weapons will normally yield you more than 1/4 under the template. Of course, sometimes you get those match-ups where blasts kinda suck, but even if they happened a lot, I would still not choose the punisher, we have better firepower for less cost in other units.
As I see it, punishers are good at two things, cleaning up small squads and putting wounds on MC's. The problem is that it's range stops it from being really effective at these jobs, IG have better tools for this (hydras)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/01 15:04:36
Subject: Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Punishers are terrible. Executioner with Plasmacannon sponsons deliver 5 templates. Or 4 on the move. Str 7 AP 2 36" range means it's better at dealing with any MC or infantry type. Vs. Tyranids, the executioner handles MCs easy. Even with a moderate scatter you should still be hitting. Tyranids will have a hard time spreading out. Punishers have a short range and it exposes them to possible charges from faster moving units, and also puts you in immediate range of Multi-meltas. Overall, the tank is terrible and there are plenty of other Tank options vs. Bugs and Necrons that are better.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/01 15:07:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/01 15:23:28
Subject: Re:Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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I'll admit, yes, Bikers play to the Punisher's strength. Unfortunately they are the only games of it I have online. In game against more standard Mech lists I've still found the Punisher to keep up with or beat other Leman Russes. If you destroy a squad's transport they will get a cover save, so even though your large blast template is getting 8 hits, you're only going to 3 kills. The Punisher with sponsons will get 3 kills too, but it'll inflict 10 wounds first and force allocation. You're not just killing 3 joes, you're snagging the Sergeant or Meltagunner too.
Tank shocking to clump units up is great, but it yields two difficulties: if the squad has a Meltagun, you could easily lose your transport without bunching the squad at all, secondly it isn't all that unlikely that you'll scatter on to your own Chimera. You have to fire the template next to the Chimera, because those are the only units that will be clumped. Your average scatter is 4 and a good 40% of the possible scatters land you on your Chimera's hull.
CaptKaruthors wrote:deliver 5 templates. Or 4 on the move. Str 7 AP 2 36" range means it's better at dealing with any MC or infantry type. Vs. Tyranids, the executioner handles MCs easy.
One might think that, but I've never experienced it in nearly 25 games. The math certainly doesn't show it. Punishers have a short range and it exposes them to possible charges from faster moving units, and also puts you in immediate range of Multi-meltas.
Do you know how effective a Multi-Melta is against AV14? A single BS4 shot has a 15% chance of destroying the tank. Fast moving assault infantry? Sounds like they aren't wearing armor. I'm certain a Punisher would love a good shooting phase against them, as there are few units that have a 24" charge range.
I never find the range to be an issue. The thing is a Leman Russ, after all, and therefore invulnerable. Good placement often sees the tank firing all game, but that's anecdotal.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/01 15:45:38
Subject: Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Sneaky Lictor
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Gotta say I tried out the punisher in my last 2 games even put pask in it (I can feel the admonishment and glares from here) not because I thought it would be any good but because everyone gives it a hard time. The results weren't bad at all I found it did better against MEQ/TEQ through weight of fire than 3 other 3LRMBT I had. It didn't even come close to making it's points back (well maybe against the blood angels) but it intimidated opponents and was fun to use.
My conclusion - not the best tank but certainly worth a punt if your confident of the rest of your army and have the space.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/01 22:24:15
Subject: Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Yes.
Wait, what am I saying? I mean
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The only vaguely useful thing about the punishers is that it's okay against monstrous creatures. Compare your expensive punisher to 2x hydras, which do 50% more damage per turn and have a much longer range, and the punisher isn't even the best option for taking down MCs with HS slots (which are bad at taking down serious MCs anyways).
For everything else, the punisher is outgunned by it's points in LASGUNS. The whole point of taking HS slots is to kill stuff. It does this job very poorly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/09 23:17:05
Subject: Re:Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
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So are Executioners the best option for this sort of game?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/11 04:06:47
Subject: Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Hopefully in the next edition the punisher will get a buff to ap 5, then it will be the tank we want it to be.
AP 4 would be awesome.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/11 18:33:27
Subject: Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Well, the problem is that they don't have a role. Yes, they can throw down a bunch of medium-strength wounds that their opponent gets armor saves against. The thing is, though, that two hydras do the same job, except better against vehicles and medium infantry for much cheaper, and from much further away.
Given that this is their ONLY role, given how crappy the damage is against everything else, there really is no reason to take them. In order for there to be a reason, you've got to do more than just give it slightly better S or slightly better AP. You've got to either do BOTH, or give it something strange, like making it AP5 and ignoring cover saves, or making it S7 and twin-linked, or making it 48" and "sniper" or something.
Or reduce the price to 150, which is what it's actually worth.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/11 19:03:19
Subject: Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
Champaign, IL
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. . . 48" sniper Heavy 20. I could get behind this as the only useful sniper weapon in the game.
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Look at your comment. Back to mine. Back to yours NOW BACK TO MINE. Sadly, it isn't mine. But if you stopped trolling and started posting legitimate crap it could LOOK like mine. Look down, back up, where are you? You're scrolling through comments, finding the ones that your comment could look like. Back at mine, what is it? It's a highly effective counter-troll. Look again, MY COMMENT IS NOW DIAMONDS.
Anything is possible when you think before you comment or post.
I'm on a computer. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/11 19:25:29
Subject: Re:Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Sneaky Sniper Drone
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What no one has mentioned is the fact that Necrons are the army most resistant to torrent of fire. Because WBB is not generally denied by torrent of fire weapons(or the presence of a rez orb), half of the necrons you torrent down will stand back up, even more if they suck them through the monolith for more chances to resurect.
This makes the punisher worthless vs necrons. You need AP3 blast weapons
vs tyranids it could be more effective, but the presence of cover saves and FNP gaunts makes it risky as well.
Overall there are just better choices available to the IG
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3000 3-4 League 5-3-1
1500
I think lubing a lighting bolt would cause fire damage
i love war horns and marching drums. going to be reviving my old necromancer character in a game next year. LEGIONS OF UNDEAD BARDS.
otherwise known as south african soccer fans
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/12 00:20:34
Subject: Re:Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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razorlead wrote:What no one has mentioned is the fact that Necrons are the army most resistant to torrent of fire. Because WBB is not generally denied by torrent of fire weapons(or the presence of a rez orb), half of the necrons you torrent down will stand back up, even more if they suck them through the monolith for more chances to resurect.
This makes the punisher worthless vs necrons. You need AP3 blast weapons
vs tyranids it could be more effective, but the presence of cover saves and FNP gaunts makes it risky as well.
Only weapons that cause instant death ignore WBB. Pound for pound, torrent of small arms fire is more effective than weapons which rely on ignoring armor against Necrons. Pound for pound, torrent of fire is going to be more effective than blast templates against MCs. Tyranids and Necrons field a lot of MCs and Necrons, so torrent of fire is going to do better.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/12 00:45:07
Subject: Punishers against 'Nids/ Necrons?
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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I still maintain that if the Punisher became AP5 and Rending it would be so, so much better. It would actually be of some use against MCs, would make taking Pask a much more viable prospect, would hurt hordes and would make the tank, well, actually work!
L. Wrex
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/12 00:45:28
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