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How do you think Melta Heavy armies will work against DE? Armies like Vulkan and SM Bikers tend to rely on it to take out vehicles. Massed Autocannons and Missiles are obviously great, but are they necessary now?

Melta weapons will obviously do a serious number on AV 10, open-topped vehicles, assuming you get into range.

The only issue melta-heavy armies will have against DE is if the melta carriers are relatively static.

As I see it, if your melta is in range of a DE transport, its too late. Its massive overkill to use a meta to take down a raider and will leave you with whatever is in said raider in assault range. S5-6 is more than enough to pop a raider, the challenge is killing it before it gets close, not the actual killing of the vehicle.

Melta; while a great idea for basic anti-tank; never seemed a good idea against mech CC forces.

Multi-meltas are only good on vehicles, because the enemy is not going to move his tank within 12" of your Multi-melta infantry man unless he wants to get his troops that close to begin with(at which point you have the troops generally near enough to at least threaten assault, or they have assaulted the squad carrying the MM; so the vehicle is fairly safe).

Meltas just get your unit within charge distance of the squad inside the vehicle you are killing, so is best used for suicide squads.

Against DE vehicles high rate of fire is king; A heavy Bolter has a relatively good chance of taking down a raider, even with Shimmer shield, due to the 3 shots and ability to penetrate(33% chance to damage/hit is pretty good, considering); Auto-cannons damage more reliably, and mitigate both BS/Shimmer shield by number of shots. missiles fall short due to the Shimmer/Flat out cover save, due to only having 1 shot/launcher.

The very best weapon against them is the Assault cannon(especially when t-l) 50% chance to damage/hit and 4 shots/turn means that is is just about going to do damage every turn it fires no matter what protection route the raider takes; it also has a reasonable chance to damage the ravager.

I think against most things DE bring, they'll just be overkill now, certainly when it comes to getting within 2D6 range.

I suppose in a list to beat DE, tac squads with plasma guns will be useful, since you get twice as many shots. Rifleman Dreads will really shine, and missile will be even more valuable.

But meltas won;t lose value. You simply don;t need to get as close, as I said. You'll pen as easily as with a missile launcher, and then wreck it on a 3+ normally (dice roll of 3 +1 for AP1 meltas, +1 for open topped vehicles) and on a 2+ if it moved flat out (Dice roll of 2, +1 for open topped, +1 for AP1 =4, which wreck a fast skimmer that moved flat out).

Mike Noble wrote:How do you think Melta Heavy armies will work against DE?

they will do fine, the melta shots can kill any big things the DE might bring (causing ID/denying FNP to most of the list) as well as annihilate their vehicles, also, incase your worried about missing those "two melta shots" your bolters will be fine for messing up their boats as well... (since it should only take around 3-4 glances to kill them anyway)

Also, being in "melta range" is not a bad thing for the person playing AGAINST the DE player (infact, if you are in the 2d6 range during YOUR shooting phase, you can easily take them out) raiders arent too hard to surround in an assault (if you are in 6" range, you can assault it) and SMs can glance it with base melee (or grenades if they feel lucky, and IG can just use grenades).

No reason to take plasmaguns, the two less shots of melta(vs the 2 extra plasma shots and the potential to "get hot") won't hurt too badly.

Again, you could always just use bolters...

~DAR

I ask because I thought about making a Vulkan Drop Pod army, and I know that even though Meltas and Flamers will destroy just about anything they have, my mobility will be severly lacking, making it easy for them to simply run away. Or something. Maybe I can rework my list to be better suited towards fast shooty Armies.

Mike Noble wrote: my mobility will be severly lacking, making it easy for them to simply run away. Or something.

On a 6x4 board, there is only so far they can run, also, if they are running from you, they aren't shooting/assaulting you, so you will eventually take the upper hand (remember, your pods have bolters too!)

You have much more to worry about from Eldar then Dark Eldar with the list it sounds like you intend to run.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Mike Noble wrote: my mobility will be severly lacking, making it easy for them to simply run away. Or something.

On a 6x4 board, there is only so far they can run, also, if they are running from you, they aren't shooting/assaulting you, so you will eventually take the upper hand (remember, your pods have bolters too!)

You have much more to worry about from Eldar then Dark Eldar with the list it sounds like you intend to run.

Really? Because I am fairly certain my Raiders/ Ravagers can mvoe 12" and still light you up with Disintegrator Cannons/ Dark Lances. Nice little rule called Aerial Assault lol. Also, you really can't run down DE. All the vehicles can flatout 24", so meltas are rarely within range. If your opponent plays against meltas regularly, expect there Ravagers and possibly Raiders to have a Nightshield, reducing melta range to 3". Not good to be that close to an army all about S8 AP2 shots.

Honestly, i keep hearing about how good MEQ are *supposed* to be at popping Raiders with Bolters, but tbh I have only ever had it happen once. The only reason that happened? The BA player knew he was loosing, so out of lulz took potshots at my raiders instead of the toops around the area. You will rarely find a Raider close enough for bolter/bolt pistol range without having a DE infantry unit around, and they are what you should be shooting at with those bolters.

Most reliable way to pop a DE vehicle is a high S shot from a long distance. Even then though be prepared to have to fire multiple volleys due to Flickerfields. They seem to roll the high numbers instead of DLs :/

Melta is "good" at taking out anything and should certainly not be ignored when taking out DE vehicles however, as has been said if you're that close prepare to be assaulted.

Assault and auto cannons are king against DE. Melta is good for removing pesky ravagers or for shooting from a vehicle.

No, melta are bad against DE skimmers. Yes, it's S8 AP1 v AV10 open topped, but...

They have SMF all the time. Congratulations, you're now 50% less effective.

They have flickerfields all the time. Congratulations, you're now an additional 33% less effective.

They have night shields all the time. Look carefully at the rules for this. For regular meltaguns it means two things. Firstly, you NEVER get the +D6 for armor penetration, and secondly, your meltaguns have to be within 6" to even shoot them, which is tough because...

They're friggin skimmers. They can basically teleport anywhere 24" in their movement phase, which means your short range guns are going to have a REAL hard time catching them if your opponent doesn't want them dead.

I take meltaguns to handle tanks, but skimmers, specifically DE skimmers, are a counter to regular meltaguns.

Uhhh, last time I checked, the range of a meltagun was 12", plus at least 6" movement. The range of a multimelta is 24", plus 6" movement if it's on a dread or 12" movement if it's on a speeder. So those are effective ranges from 18" minimum up to 36" for a MM speeder.

When you're shooting melta at an AR10-11 open-topped vehicle, you don't need the half-range. You can shoot at maximum range and only need a 3 to pen (4 for ravagers), and then a 3+ to destroy the vehicle (2+ if it moved flat out).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:

They have SMF all the time.

Not if they're shooting or disembarking anybody.

And on the nightshield thing, don't forget about your meltagun's movement of 6" minimum. So that effective range is more like 12", or closer to 21" if you're rolling up in a transport, disembarking, then shooting.

And there's always dropping melta dreads. That'll put you as close as you want.

On the OPs question, he's talking about a vulkan army, which increases the hit percentages and offsets some of the effect of the flickerfield.

Meltas are fine. Last I looked, you're still S8, AP1 against AV10, open-topped. You don't need to be in 2d6 range, you glance on a 2+. Can you still move, disembark, and shoot? Then you're good.

Just to put in my 2c, I've been playing DE for about 1.5 months now. One thing I've noticed, is that armies that spam melta(guns) are basically countered by raiderspam. I don't have to get within your range unless I want to for the most part, and by then the melta isn't going to save you. Sure, you might destroy a raider with it, but that means I've already delivered my cargo.

DE is more much afraid of long range AV then meltaspam. I don't even think I've lost a single game to a meltaspam army (mechvets, BA varients anyways). I hope this shifts the meta a bit away from the meltaspam to be honest, it was getting annoying to play against with my SM .

Dracos wrote:Just to put in my 2c, I've been playing DE for about 1.5 months now. One thing I've noticed, is that armies that spam melta(guns) are basically countered by raiderspam. I don't have to get within your range unless I want to for the most part, and by then the melta isn't going to save you. Sure, you might destroy a raider with it, but that means I've already delivered my cargo.

DE is more much afraid of long range AV then meltaspam. I don't even think I've lost a single game to a meltaspam army (mechvets, BA varients anyways). I hope this shifts the meta a bit away from the meltaspam to be honest, it was getting annoying to play against with my SM .

That. Main point to make: If your within melta range, the DE player is there for a reason. I mean that even for a normal melta range of 24". Raiders mean that a normal unit has ~ a 16" minimum assault range; if they are beastmasters, up that to a 22" minimum. They are fast enough to stay outside your range, and since all the DE long range weaponry short of missiles are 36" shots, staying outside of 24" guns isn't really an issue. Its much more terrifying to see railgun spam or any type of S7 or higher guns that have 48". Not much to do against that than rush it, as DE aren't going to be able to outshoot it. Honestly, meltaspam isn't going to be wonderful; it'll be effective at times, but overall, I and most other DE players will look at it as sort of meh.

Dracos wrote:Just to put in my 2c, I've been playing DE for about 1.5 months now. One thing I've noticed, is that armies that spam melta(guns) are basically countered by raiderspam.

Stop telling our enemies our dirty little secrets...

I don't have to get within your range unless I want to for the most part, and by then the melta isn't going to save you. Sure, you might destroy a raider with it, but that means I've already delivered my cargo.

They won't believe you. They never do.

I hope this shifts the meta a bit away from the meltaspam to be honest, it was getting annoying to play against with my SM .

The Meta won't change, which is great for us

vishra wrote:
Really? Because I am fairly certain my Raiders/ Ravagers can mvoe 12" and still light you up with Disintegrator Cannons/ Dark Lances. Nice little rule called Aerial Assault lol.

I'm fairly certain your Raiders don't have aerial assault, and your Ravagers aren't transports (so no cargo to deliver).

Also, Disintegrators suck.

vishra wrote:
Also, you really can't run down DE. All the vehicles can flatout 24", so meltas are rarely within range. If your opponent plays against meltas regularly, expect there Ravagers and possibly Raiders to have a Nightshield, reducing melta range to 3". Not good to be that close to an army all about S8 AP2 shots.

All about s8ap2? You are probably fielding as much lance as the SM player is fielding melta, the major difference is that your base infantry's firepower can't do jack to a rhino, while Bolters can rip apart raiders (I'm guessing you've never run into a LRC with your new DE yet)

vishra wrote:
Honestly, i keep hearing about how good MEQ are *supposed* to be at popping Raiders with Bolters, but tbh I have only ever had it happen once. The only reason that happened? The BA player knew he was loosing, so out of lulz took potshots at my raiders instead of the toops around the area. You will rarely find a Raider close enough for bolter/bolt pistol range without having a DE infantry unit around, and they are what you should be shooting at with those bolters.

OP was talking about a Drop Pod army... its not too hard to Deepstrike next to a raider and shoot the guy from there... also again, LRC/LRR

vishra wrote:
Most reliable way to pop a DE vehicle is a high S shot from a long distance. Even then though be prepared to have to fire multiple volleys due to Flickerfields. They seem to roll the high numbers instead of DLs :/

If by High Str shot you mean str 6 shots (scatter lasers, multi-laser, assault cannons) then yes, also, smart SM players will start taking a single(or more) allied GK unit (with a few psycannons) in their side-board/main list, with the amount of Invul out there now (and their ability to ignore it) plus the fact that GKs are next in line for a codex anyway, its only logical that we'd start seeing more of them.

Bsically mellta means you're more able to light my paper planes on fire... when your squads are close to mine...
Okay best case scenario, you target fire on my raider, forgetting this means you can't assault the previously disembarked squad, after detroying another target (this has hapened before), worst case - a squad drops out taking some 4+w, 6+s, chances of dying, best case that could be incubi with, 4+w, 3+s, 4+fnp and multiple 3 and/or less ap template weapons... sure pop the trasport and asssault into terrain.. or let me shoot and asssault you...

Most of the time you're not going to kill that uint inside from your shooting, so one has to assault the contents or be assaulted by wyches, wrack, incubi or there is always rapid fire spliter rifle death!

ChrisCP wrote:
Okay best case scenario, you target fire on my raider, forgetting this means you can't assault the previously disembarked squad, after detroying another target (this has hapened before),

you can still assault the squad that was in the raider if you shoot the raider(and kill it)...

ChrisCP wrote:
worst case - a squad drops out taking some 4+w, 6+s, chances of dying, best case that could be incubi with, 4+w, 3+s, 4+fnp and multiple 3 and/or less ap template weapons... sure pop the trasport and asssault into terrain.. or let me shoot and asssault you...

How do the Incubi already have FnP? They have been in a transport the entire time, also, they should only have 1 template weapon (only the Klavex can take a bloodstone), and how would assaulting into terrain hinder a SM player, please list an infantry unit of SM that do not come with grenades (cause I can't think of any).

ChrisCP wrote:
Most of the time you're not going to kill that uint inside from your shooting, so one has to assault the contents or be assaulted by wyches, wrack, incubi or there is always rapid fire spliter rifle death!

None of the units you listed have rapid-fire splinter weapons (and even so, you'd get a max of 20 shots, hitting on 3s, wounding on 4s, saved on 3s... not too scary), and if you are taking lancespam (which many people in the thread seem to be claiming that they intend to have a bunch of S8 Ap2) then the SMs will beat them out in melee (warriors arent too great). Again, DE aren't melta-immune, in fact, if you find yourself with the trouble of "Darn it, I keep shooting melta weapons at DE when I don't need too!" then you really don't have much trouble at all, shoot em with bolters, then tell them to read on how they should be playing their army...

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:$
Okay best case scenario, you target fire on my raider, forgetting this means you can't assault the previously disembarked squad, after destroying another target (this has happened before),

you can still assault the squad that was in the raider if you shoot the raider(and kill it)...

Previously disembarked squad, best case, wrongly remembered rules or something

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:
worst case - a squad drops out taking some 4+w, 6+s, chances of dying, best case that could be incubi with, 4+w, 3+s, 4+fnp and multiple 3 and/or less ap template weapons... sure pop the transport and assault into terrain.. or let me shoot and assault you...

How do the Incubi already have FnP? They have been in a transport the entire time, also, they should only have 1 template weapon (only the Klavex can take a bloodstone), and how would assaulting into terrain hinder a SM player, please list an infantry unit of SM that do not come with grenades (cause I can't think of any).

Fair point about SM's I guess. I was talking generally at this point and although it's usually true to take grenades whenever possible for non-carriers, I6 will be hitting sooner than most. Shooting could come from a 'monculus along with them.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:
Most of the time you're not going to kill that uint inside from your shooting, so one has to assault the contents or be assaulted by wyches, wrack, incubi or there is always rapid fire spliter rifle death!

None of the units you listed have rapid-fire splinter weapons (and even so, you'd get a max of 20 shots, hitting on 3s, wounding on 4s, saved on 3s... not too scary), and if you are taking lancespam (which many people in the thread seem to be claiming that they intend to have a bunch of S8 Ap2) then the SMs will beat them out in melee (warriors arent too great). Again, DE aren't melta-immune, in fact, if you find yourself with the trouble of "Darn it, I keep shooting melta weapons at DE when I don't need too!" then you really don't have much trouble at all, shoot em with bolters, then tell them to read on how they should be playing their army...

Melta+Raider=OVERKILL

Just spam 'weak' (S6/7) AT and it'll be fine.

My preferred employment of melta weaponry is on speeders and land raiders. All of these platforms have a 12" move + 24" Weapon Range threat area. I don't need to get w/in 1/2 range for the extra dice. This also gives me a 36" area that I can return fire on your raiders.

As for regular meltaguns. I will have to agree that the 12" range means they won't get close enough to use them. Mind you however, that most tactical squads come stock with a missile launcher as well.

I don't see how any of this is especially different from what the situation has been with mech Eldar since the start of 5th edition. Eldar grav tanks move just as fast and get just as much SMF as DE skimmers do, and have a wider variety of weapons that shoot out to 36-48" range. Plus, the AR12 tanks are actually harder to penetrate with melta, especially wave serpents.

Regular Eldar are actually better at playing anti-melta standoff games than DE, and I don't see anybody claiming that mech Eldar means the end of the melta "meta."

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Regular Eldar are actually better at playing anti-melta standoff games than DE, and I don't see anybody claiming that mech Eldar means the end of the melta "meta."

100% agree

Av 12 = Harder to glance/pen

Closed topped = only +1 for AP1 instead of the +2 to the table (aka, ignore glance, pen kills on a 2+ if flat out)

Wave Serpents ignore the additional D6 if in melta range (but not from behind) and Falcons can have Holo fields (which is also a very good upgrade)

Flickerfields are nice and all, but only ignoring 1 in 3 results (especially when you will probably be using your Flat out save more then this one) is not nearly as good as a Wave-serpent with fortune going flat out (rerolling 4+s is annoying as hell!, god forbid you play with smart eldar players that use the 3+ exploit!* )

If the Incubi have a monkey(thats what I call Haemonculi, sue me!) with them thats 1 less I6 Str 4 2 attack power weapon to worry about, and makes it far easier to force them to break/below half str as the monkey doesn't count towards total (meaning you need kill 3 to force a check(not in assault phase), and assume 1 or 2 die from the explosion/dangerous defenders react move, ld 8/9((I think monkeys are 9)) -2/3 ((they are bound to score a wound or two on you)) means they will probably be breaking, sure they will escape (I6) but what good does that do them? they will still be fleeing till they hit board edge!)

Id say the only thing Pure Melta lists have to worry about from DE would be Fake Mech/Portal DE (meaning you take a bunch of empty venoms/raiders and mobile weapons platforms and bring your fighters thru the portal) but even with them, vulkan still lets you reroll flamers (which DEVESTATE DE) so just stick a few flamers/heavy flamers in the list. Plus, Hestan himself should have a rather easy time fighting ANYTHING the DE bring against him... (with his 2+ 3++, Flamer, and mastercrafted digital weapon!)

~DAR

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

vishra wrote:

I'm fairly certain your Raiders don't have aerial assault, and your Ravagers aren't transports (so no cargo to deliver).

Also, Disintegrators suck.

Sorry if my wording was wonky, but I meant Ravagers with Aerial Assault. Why would a vehicle with one weapons need Aerial Assault?

And 9 S5 AP2 shots say I kill normal SMs.

I don't spam DLs, as it is a really easy way to get ripped to pieces thanks to infantry being stationary. I DO, however, have a good amount of them, as it is the only way that my particular list can pop tanks, and since I'm among the DE players whose DLs hate statistics.

vishra wrote:And 9 S5 AP2 shots say I kill normal SMs.

Hit 6

Wound 4

not too shabby I guess, unless I have cover and save 2 of those wounds...

Too bad you won't be hitting any of them from within my LRC(which the 9 Dis cant hit) anyway, which btw, I hope you enjoy 4 twinlinked str 6 rending shots and the secret multi-melta shot I'll be throwing your way, sure you could have another 6 shots(the other two Ravs) that may or may not do something (4 hits, 1glance 1 pen, possibly immobilising me/killing 1 gun) next turn, but once I take out your lances (assuming you have about 12 total, not counting blast pistols, on the board in 2k points) that One LRC is goiing to have a field day shooting up your dark spes elves.

I miss infantry DL spam, I used to use it all the time since my foot-DE always killed LRs in one shot with their lances while my ravagers couldn't hit the front armor of an Imperator Class Titan if(when) their lives depended on it....

Regular Eldar vehicles aren't open topped, which means no drive-by's, and no ludicrous threat range assaults.

Regular Eldar vehicles tend to be rather few in number, even with a mechdar list. Dark eldar vehicles are a third the price, thus you see three times as many of them.

Regular Eldar don't have either nightshields or flickerfields. This means you can still shoot them with regular meltaguns if you start 18" away from them, rather than needing to start your turn in charge range, and flickerfields are at least as good as holofields, except they get them on everything. Did I mention there were way more of them?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
god forbid you play with smart eldar players that use the 3+ exploit!*

By which, I assume you mean using armor angles to put enemies in the side arc but only able to see the front one?

Ailaros wrote:Regular Eldar vehicles aren't open topped, which means no drive-by's, and no ludicrous threat range assaults.

Regular Eldar vehicles tend to be rather few in number, even with a mechdar list. Dark eldar vehicles are a third the price, thus you see three times as many of them.

Regular Eldar don't have either nightshields or flickerfields. This means you can still shoot them with regular meltaguns if you start 18" away from them, rather than needing to start your turn in charge range, and flickerfields are at least as good as holofields, except they get them on everything. Did I mention there were way more of them?

I agree that would be the major difference--that DE are capable of assaulting, actually wanting to assault, and have the ridiculous assault range, whereas most mech Eldar builds usually don't want to do that.

But I intended to address the original argument that a DE army is more capable of staying out of melta range (if they want to) than any other army before. If the DE are planning to assault, the best standoff range they can get on the turn they're lining up is 22-27", which is entirely within range for a unit of meltagun guys in a transport (i.e. 27") or any vehicle with a multimelta (i.e. 30" for walkers/non-fast vehicles or 36" for speeders). Eldar can do better than that at avoiding meltaguns, since Eldar have weapons that range more than 30". The only type of melta build that is uniquely vulnerable to DE armies in a new way is a footslogging meltagunner--which already had bigger issues even before the new DE book came out.

IMO it's an open question as to whether the cost/numbers, armor/tops and upgrades offset each other, and we could probably debate it all day and maybe not come to any consensus. Except, mathematically, a holofield/spiritstone combo that turns 66% of penetrating hits and 88% of glancing hits into "shaken" results seems better to me than a flickerfield.

Flavius Infernus wrote:the best standoff range they can get on the turn they're lining up is 22-27", which is entirely within range for a unit of meltagun guys in a transport (i.e. 27") or any vehicle with a multimelta (i.e. 30" for walkers/non-fast vehicles or 36" for speeders).

Nightshields, sir. Nightshields.

The rhino moves 12". The guys get out 2" plus the width of a base for another inch. Then their meltaguns have a 6" range. The total is 21", at the ABSOLUTE farthest.

Meanwhile, if you have wyches that rolled 12" assault, then their transport can move 12" plus the aforementioned 3", then they fleet up to 6" and then assault for 12 more inches. This gives them a threat range of 33". That's a whole foot longer than the threat range of meltaguns in a transport.

And, as mentioned, DE actually want to get into assault, which you can't stop them from doing with just melta weaponry.