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 SisterSydney wrote:
Question to Mercury in particular about making Wyches work: I take it they really need a Raider? A Venom squad seems dangerously small, while a maxed-out 15-Wych squad on foot relying on WWP alone is too vulnerable to being shot up before they get stuck in?

I think they're fine in a Venom as well but it depends on your strategy and what you want to do with them. Five in a Venom with no upgrades or just hydra gauntlets is quite inexpensive, agile, and can lend CC support where it matters or tangle up a shooty unit. I used a 5x Wych Venom in my tournament last weekend and turn two I managed to assault a Thunderfire cannon and shut down down the much-dreaded ignores cover fire for a turn. And while he did rescue them, he had to do it with scouts. The Wyches just regrouped and refused to die, GTG in cover with 5+ FNP. Three of them were alive at the end of the game even

15 in a WWP... I guess you could put a Shadowfield Archon in front of them and dare your opponent to make you roll 1s. You can always LoS S6 onto a wych in cover if need be. It could be a funny unit but I think you'd be better taking 9-10 in a raider.

The main reason you want Wyches in a Raider is because 3+ jink is superb. You're daring your opponent to fire on low-point units that are actually fairly well-defended if you can roll a 3. If they dedicate significant firepower on that unit and it does nothing, well that's a major win for you.

Yeah, I thought of Shadowfield shennanigans protecting a "SuccuBlob" in this fluffy list, plus the "die psykers die" helm, but that seems like a big investment in a single point of failure to make a 15-Bloodbride unit work. And if you lose the character with the WWP, you're walkin'... Seems very brittle.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Yeah, I thought of Shadowfield shennanigans protecting a "SuccuBlob" in this fluffy list, plus the "die psykers die" helm, but that seems like a big investment in a single point of failure to make a 15-Bloodbride unit work. And if you lose the character with the WWP, you're walkin'... Seems very brittle.

DE assault units are best in small, mobile squads that hit hard. Many Dark Eldar players take a look at Wyches and see a small, mobile squad that doesn't hit hard and endeavor to simply make them cheap units that tarpit certain foes fairly well - but I think that's wrong. With drugs, FnP, cheap hydra gauntlets, about seven in a unit, in a Raider that can be surprisingly hard to take down, they can go get the job done.

mercury14 wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Yeah, I thought of Shadowfield shennanigans protecting a "SuccuBlob" in this fluffy list, plus the "die psykers die" helm, but that seems like a big investment in a single point of failure to make a 15-Bloodbride unit work. And if you lose the character with the WWP, you're walkin'... Seems very brittle.

DE assault units are best in small, mobile squads that hit hard. Many Dark Eldar players take a look at Wyches and see a small, mobile squad that doesn't hit hard and endeavor to simply make them cheap units that tarpit certain foes fairly well - but I think that's wrong. With drugs, FnP, cheap hydra gauntlets, about seven in a unit, in a Raider that can be surprisingly hard to take down, they can go get the job done.

Yeah, I'm thinking of running 8 in a Raider with a Succubus with Archite Glaive and an Autarch with a Firesabre (who really is only there for reserves shenanigans but can hit fairly hard to). I reckon it'll be quite a nasty unit, especially since I can hold it in reserve and have a good chance of being able to bring it on exactly when I want it.

I think wyche cult is more viable than initial thoughts from many people, myself included.

One of the other things worth mentioning is the RSR detachment for wyches is pretty nice, as wyches are troops they gain the cover save from night fighting and turn 1. This gives them an out of combat save for a turn or two which helps their survivability towards getting FnP. Also exploding vehicles which last edition were very painful for units of wyches without a FnP save, are slightly mitigated here as the explosion hit does not have the ignores cover rule, so you can take a cover save when your ride blows up at least.

Animus Vitae is also somewhat useful, the effect is huge when it goes off, but as the weapon is 1 shot only and requires an unsaved wound from its str 4 hit is less than a 50/50 shot of getting it off against most armies.


If you run large beastpacks you can even pull off WWP blobs, by getting the beastpacks in the opponents face turn 1-2 then dsing in the wyche blobs with WWP.

blaktoof wrote:
I think wyche cult is more viable than initial thoughts from many people, myself included.

One of the other things worth mentioning is the RSR detachment for wyches is pretty nice, as wyches are troops they gain the cover save from night fighting and turn 1. This gives them an out of combat save for a turn or two which helps their survivability towards getting FnP. Also exploding vehicles which last edition were very painful for units of wyches without a FnP save, are slightly mitigated here as the explosion hit does not have the ignores cover rule, so you can take a cover save when your ride blows up at least.

Animus Vitae is also somewhat useful, the effect is huge when it goes off, but as the weapon is 1 shot only and requires an unsaved wound from its str 4 hit is less than a 50/50 shot of getting it off against most armies.


If you run large beastpacks you can even pull off WWP blobs, by getting the beastpacks in the opponents face turn 1-2 then dsing in the wyche blobs with WWP.

Yes, I think Wyches were initially cast off after losing Haywire Grenades, I personally believe their role changed on the battlefield. Decent in CC and with the Invulnerable save and potentially FnP, make a good tarpit unit

A lot of you dark eldar players may find this useful ... http://www.thedarkcity.net/t6960p960-a-tdc-blog-strategies-unit-analysis-batreps-observations-tactics#bottom

I use the regular missiles for the Razorwing.

Yeah, I don't rightly see a reason to swap missiles on the Razorwing. You know, unless you can't find something to spend 40-60pts on.

I consider the Necrotoxin Missiles to shower Biker units with armour saves and wound that odd TMC amongst a crowd of 'Gants on a 2+.

My bad. I was thinking of the Voidraven.

 Extreaminatus wrote:
My bad. I was thinking of the Voidraven.

Ah, yes. I upgraded mine only with the Night Shields. Should be enough, though I need to test it.

Y'know I'm trying to like Wyches but, I can't. I mean they have a 4++ in combat, a 5+FNP (by their usual ETA), decent amount of attacks but, this next flaw is huge (I don't mean the loss of Haywire)... the lack of anyway to get Assault Grenades.

Many gunlines would be in woods, ruins or some other area terrain. Even if they are effective tarpits for Obliterators or certain Terminators, that not reliably going first hamstrings their attack amounts.

I'm sorry...

Wyches have plasma grenades(which are assault grenades) according to my codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also looks like errata is up. But its not letting me download it.

 RancidHate wrote:
Y'know I'm trying to like Wyches but, I can't. I mean they have a 4++ in combat, a 5+FNP (by their usual ETA), decent amount of attacks but, this next flaw is huge (I don't mean the loss of Haywire)... the lack of anyway to get Assault Grenades.

Many gunlines would be in woods, ruins or some other area terrain. Even if they are effective tarpits for Obliterators or certain Terminators, that not reliably going first hamstrings their attack amounts.

I'm sorry...

Once you read their profile in the Codex you might discover a "Plasma Grenades" entry in their Wargear list... What are they? Assault Grenades, yes!

 RancidHate wrote:
Y'know I'm trying to like Wyches but, I can't. I mean they have a 4++ in combat, a 5+FNP (by their usual ETA), decent amount of attacks but, this next flaw is huge (I don't mean the loss of Haywire)... the lack of anyway to get Assault Grenades.

Many gunlines would be in woods, ruins or some other area terrain. Even if they are effective tarpits for Obliterators or certain Terminators, that not reliably going first hamstrings their attack amounts.

I'm sorry...

Good news. Wyches come with assault grenades

Also looks like errata is up. But its not letting me download it.

The link on black library is missing .pdf at the end. Add that in your address bar and it works fine.

But only real fix is allowing succubus to swap ccw OR splinter pistol for glaive. Thus making the new models loadout legal.

A few popular podcasts in their Dark Eldar codex review said that Wyches had no grenades so they're junk. Like three of them did. I have no idea why but it's become like dirty gossip now.

What makes the scathing sarcasm worse is I play DE and have their new codex...

EDIT: So I retract the statement that they aren't good...

 SkaredCast wrote:
I use the regular missiles for the Razorwing.

I just finished painting my second razorwing jetfighter and I'm planning on running one with each loadout of missiles. The strength 6 is nice if you need to take some shots at light vehicles or want to double out some pesky T3 units like necron scarabs, but I also get a lot of use out of the fleshbane missiles for firing into clumps of tougher tyranid units, bikers, or even gargantuan creatures. I rarely find the loss of AP5 much of a factor because the opponent will often have some sort of cover save or a better armor save anyway. Quite frankly, if a unit only has a 5+ save then I'm generally not too concerned about how well they'll survive with or without their armor.

mercury14 wrote:
A few popular podcasts in their Dark Eldar codex review said that Wyches had no grenades so they're junk. Like three of them did. I have no idea why but it's become like dirty gossip now.

some people have bad verbal reasoning, so when they hear "lost haywire grenades" it becomes "have no grenades"

avoid podcasts for rules.

Honestly though it seems like podcast after podcast has flubbed their review of the Dark Eldar codex just on basic facts and it's not just Wyches. They've all called Beast units horribly nerfed because they can't be abused for a 2++ rerollable with the Baron and Farseer but they don't mention that all beast units are cheaper, better, or both. Forge the Narrative for instance called Khymera "nerfed hard" because they went from a 4++ to a 5++, but failed to mention that they're now T4 and 2 points cheaper. They're like 4-attack S4/T4/beast Wyches. They're now a stupid-good value for just 10 points.

Beastmasters are cheaper. 10 points gets you a better gun than an 8-pt Kabalite, beast move, and cheap access to AP3 in CC. Razorwing flocks are only 10 pts now, a -33 decrease which makes them worthy fillers even with a decrease in their stats. The Fiend is cheaper and now perfectly playable. You can pack in a few fiends and give the pack T5 vs shooting. The whole beast unit in general is just objectively better but it can't be abused with another codex so it's nerfed....Sad reviewing skills.

And Reavers.... The reviewers ranted and moaned about them being nerfed but they're just plain better, especially for -6 points. They'd be better IMO if they only costed -2 points.

Raiders also deserve mass props for their 3+ jink buff now. That's HUUUUGE for an army that depends so heavily on getting units across the map. Absolutely huge. The buff to raiders isn't just a buff to Raiders, it buffs most units in the codex, and reviewers completely missed it, preferring to just look at units in isolation. Weak.

SSSHHHHhhh!
Keep up all the talk about how terrible DE are. I don't want anyone to see me coming.

To me, the codex only missed on 1 point.
Characters not getting skyboard/jetbike options really sucks.
It just feels like the characters don't have much character.

The tactical genius of the Archons is toted all through the fluff; but on the table, they really do nothing. Succubus might be a super-human killing machine in an arena, but that fails on the battlefield. Haemonculus seem the best of the bunch, as they actually have a unique rule.
Would it have been so hard to give the Archon +1/-1 reserves? Give the Succubus Lethal Strike (6's to hit have instant death).

How much haywire do we need?

I am thinking of running two units of scourges but I am worried it might be overkill on the haywire, because once the tanks are dead the haywire gets completely useless. Haywire seems like a necessity for taking out land raiders and imperial knights, but in both cases the single unit of scourges will probably not get the job done the turn they deep strike and they may not last long enough for a second round of fire. Against something like serpent spam, the scourges will not kill a serpent and will die to it the next turn. Most vehicles have rear armor of 10, which our jetbikes, talos, even beasts can rip into. Besides landraiders, what vehicle is played often that has rear armor of more than 10? Is one unit of scourges enough? Should a talos take a haywire blaster to soften up vehicles as it moves across the board?

Raiders of Venoms?
I really can not decide which is better. If you are jinking every turn 3hp and a 3+ jink makes the raider seems much better than the venom. I am also thinking of using wyches as troops, which advanced aether sails seems like it would be good with them. This would allow them to boost into enemy lines (hiding a unit of reavers behind them). They don't blow up like they used to and 3hp and 3+ jink makes them actually able to stick around. I plan to have a unit of medusa in a raider because it offers more area to put flamer templates out of giving me better coverage. Just making sure, if a raider jinks the unit inside can still fire normally because they do not have the jink rule, right?

I did my first battle against the new DE dex last night using my eldar army. I must say I really liked what I saw. My opponent was a new player and it was her first real battle that wasn't a practice skirmish against her husband.

Her unit choices seemed solid but her war gear and tactics were a bit... scattered. That's fine though since she's learning and for war gear she was more excited about trying lots of things out as opposed to optimizing her choices. All in all though we had lots of fun and it was a learning experience for both of us.

The star of her army for sure though was her unit of wyches, they not only did the most damage of anything in her force but they also soaked up a stupid amount of fire power. She played them smart, kept them in cover when they weren't assaulting things and I must say I was impressed with their survivability, especially late game.

Her kabalite warriors didn't do very well at all but I feel that was more a result of poor tactics and positioning than any flaw in the kabalites themselves.

All in all I did like what I fought and It was a very fun match.

Heads up this was part of a league were doing that starts at 500 points and goes up by 250 every month.

I wouldn't field a Dark Eldar army with fewer than 3 units of haywire scourges. The anti-tank elsewhere in the codex is very weak, and your poison can't do anything if the enemy infantry are stuck in metal boxes.

I'd also recommend a source of good moderate strength anti-tank firepower for low AV transports. Wave Serpents or a Tau Firebase Cadre would be my pick for this, since our codex simply lacks that kind of firepower.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
SSSHHHHhhh!
Keep up all the talk about how terrible DE are. I don't want anyone to see me coming.

To me, the codex only missed on 1 point.
Characters not getting skyboard/jetbike options really sucks.
It just feels like the characters don't have much character.

The tactical genius of the Archons is toted all through the fluff; but on the table, they really do nothing. Succubus might be a super-human killing machine in an arena, but that fails on the battlefield. Haemonculus seem the best of the bunch, as they actually have a unique rule.
Would it have been so hard to give the Archon +1/-1 reserves? Give the Succubus Lethal Strike (6's to hit have instant death).

Agreed, on the Characters getting some fast attack gear. Makes no sense that might Eldar Autarch can hop on a jetbike and slaughter things, but jetbikes are somehow beneath an archon/wych? That was such a no brainer option it's almost inexcusable. This is the only codex I can think of where the HQ slot is the weakest slot in the book.

However there are some other nit picky points as well. Did phantasm grenade launchers really need to be changed? I suppose so because then archons might get dangerously close to providing some utility to the army outside WWP bisch, and we can't be having that.

Vect. The others have been nice, but losing a random helion king/crazy lady talking to herself in a corner/Drug dealer isn't nearly as bad as THE LEADER OF THE FREAKING DARK CITY. For a company as big on fluff and IP as GW is, this just made no sense.

Wyches should be same points as warriors. I won't enter the fray about whether they are the worst unit ever produced by GW and how the world has ended since hay wire got taken from them, but they're slightly overcosted.

Loving the new codex, but there are some really head scratching decisions in here. I actually like that there is a difference between Venoms and Raiders now, and that you probably need a mix of both to avoid Ignores cover completely invalidating your army. It's a great codex, there's just some really irritating simple ideas that never happened.

If wyches are overcosted it's by maybe 1 ppm. I think they're fine though. 4++ in CC, FnP, objective secured, combat drugs for 10 points? Sounds good to me!

If you want to talk about head-scratching crappy overcosted units, Hellions are right this way. -3 points each but they lost one CC attack because hellglaives no longer count as 2 weapons. They die as easily as kabalites but struggle in cover since it's dangerous to them. Worse still, they share a slot with our wonderful Reavers which pack soooo much more value per point at just a tiny bit more cost.

mercury14 wrote:
If wyches are overcosted it's by maybe 1 ppm. I think they're fine though. 4++ in CC, FnP, objective secured, combat drugs for 10 points? Sounds good to me!

If you want to talk about head-scratching crappy overcosted units, Hellions are right this way. -3 points each but they lost one CC attack because hellglaives no longer count as 2 weapons. They die as easily as kabalites but struggle in cover since it's dangerous to them. Worse still, they share a slot with our wonderful Reavers which pack soooo much more value per point at just a tiny bit more cost.

You must be confusing hellions with packs of beastmasters . 10 points for 2 poison shots, you move fast, and ignore terrain.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
If wyches are overcosted it's by maybe 1 ppm. I think they're fine though. 4++ in CC, FnP, objective secured, combat drugs for 10 points? Sounds good to me!

If you want to talk about head-scratching crappy overcosted units, Hellions are right this way. -3 points each but they lost one CC attack because hellglaives no longer count as 2 weapons. They die as easily as kabalites but struggle in cover since it's dangerous to them. Worse still, they share a slot with our wonderful Reavers which pack soooo much more value per point at just a tiny bit more cost.

You must be confusing hellions with packs of beastmasters . 10 points for 2 poison shots, you move fast, and ignore terrain.

Really the only thing different between Hellions and Beastmasters is Hellions can hammer of wrath at the cost of movement, and cost more. Hellions basically have no real purpose.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

Really the only thing different between Hellions and Beastmasters is Hellions can hammer of wrath at the cost of movement, and cost more. Hellions basically have no real purpose.

Hellions can jump over impassable terrain and can DS. They can also be taken in groups of 13+.

But yes, they are mandrake terrible