Does anybody have any experience with this painting service? They aren't the cheapest by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems that they are very professional/reliable. I'm wondering how good the quality is. To be honest, the pictures on their website are so low resolution that it's very hard to tell what their products look like. Also, a lot of their models look very... splotchy or pasty or chalky - but it's hard to tell because their pictures are very very low res.
They've got some videos on youtube, and some of the models they use in their videos look... not so impressive. The Ultramarines in this video are apparently for sale, but they look like they just went over them with a can of blue spray paint basically:
I kinda get the feeling that they pump out so many models that they might not really be paying attention to what they are doing. They have these different "levels" of painting, and I think that the standard level is level 3. For most of my models, I'd be getting them painted at a 3.
Can I get any opinions from people on this forum about BTP?
They are a great company doing great things for the game and the industry but they fill a niche. If you have the money and not the time they will do good work for you. Good not great. They have some really good youtube videos where they go over exactly what you would get at the different levels of painting. If you go back maybe 3 weeks of videos you will find them.
BTW, most of those models, the ultra marine models, were traded to BTP and they touched them up a little bit and then put them up for sale.
furbyballer wrote: BTW, most of those models, the ultra marine models, were traded to BTP and they touched them up a little bit and then put them up for sale.
Thank you, this is very good info to know.
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furbyballer wrote: If you have the money and not the time they will do good work for you. Good not great.
Can you recommend any services around the same price range that you would consider great? heh heh. I'm looking for a painting service that I can get into a long term business relationship with and constantly have models being painted for years to come. I'm not looking for somebody who just started because they might not be in the business in a year. Also, I'm not looking for anybody who is doing this part-time and might not be able to paint for 9 months when life gets in the way.
They're pretty good actually. I've used them a couple of times for level 3 work, and have 2 of their level 5s that I'm very happy with.
What you're paying for with BlueTablePainting really is all about service. They respond quickly to any inquiries about assembling and painting your minis, and will even buy them for you. They've got fast turnaround time (I think the shortest?) due to multiple people working on your project at a time on well organized painting recipes picked out by you.
You can pay extra for insane levels of detail, but if you need volume painted fast, BTP can definitely bring consistency to the table to tie units together at various levels of scrutiny. Many other companies have "levels" of painting, BTP also adds "levels" of scrutiny - that is, how close a model can be looked at before you notice defects in the paintjob. Thier Level 2 is a basic tabletop 3 color Tabletop quality mini and costs about $3 per mini if you have 60 done.
As with everything else, you'll get what you pay for if you want to up the levels of detail applied.
All in all, I'd say a good company and a safe bet.
What you're paying for with BlueTablePainting really is all about service. They respond quickly to any inquiries about assembling and painting your minis, and will even buy them for you. They've got fast turnaround time (I think the shortest?) due to multiple people working on your project at a time on well organized painting recipes picked out by you.
Yeah I can already tell that they are extremely professional and well run, which honestly is the biggest selling point for me.
Can anybody recommend any other alternatives that I might wanna consider? Also, I'd rather deal with somebody in America just due to shipping (which rules out a few amazing companies in the UK.
let me offer this, READ their entire site. sure they can paint, and they do it quickly. But you do pay Alot. Thier low level grunts are not that good at all, and yes i have seen them, repainted them in person. I have a friend who paid them 1900$ to get his entire army done up and is in a mess as the painter left mid army, the next kid came in and nothing matches now (long story) Over all it is your money and do as you wish with it. I have my opinion of them but it is my own, Alot of their policies i do not like at all, but again that's me. Just my 2 cents is all.
Your local game store might be able to help you. Sometimes there are local reputable painters, usually also workers in the store, who just sit around painting all day.
BTP also posts videos of their painting atmosphere, which is like a game store. Many people use it as painting background noise and if so are subjected to subliminal messaging to buy the limited edition BTP measuring device. Basically, they've got their game/business model down pretty hardcore, which fills me with confidence about their ability to take care of my minis.
Arrathon wrote: let me offer this, READ their entire site. sure they can paint, and they do it quickly. But you do pay Alot. Thier low level grunts are not that good at all, and yes i have seen them, repainted them in person. I have a friend who paid them 1900$ to get his entire army done up and is in a mess as the painter left mid army, the next kid came in and nothing matches now (long story) Over all it is your money and do as you wish with it. I have my opinion of them but it is my own, Alot of their policies i do not like at all, but again that's me. Just my 2 cents is all.
Sigh. who else should I be considering?
And in terms of hiring a local... I just get the feeling I might end up finding somebody who is far less than professional, doing it in his spare time and taking a year and a half to finish a squad.
Derr wrote: Your local game store might be able to help you. Sometimes there are local reputable painters, usually also workers in the store, who just sit around painting all day. .
This.. I am one of the local only commission painters, ask around..i guarentee you'll find one..who possibly has better prices/quality then BTP.
Derr wrote: They're pretty good actually. I've used them a couple of times for level 3 work, and have 2 of their level 5s that I'm very happy with.
Pics please.
Yea, maybe you could link us to the a gallery on their site that has your pics of your minis.
The only problem is that the pics on their site are such low resolution....
One of the resons I have never used BTP is all their own pics and so forth are not good and everythign seems so elusive and hard to pinpoint as far as quality/prices/etc.
What I want to see are customer pics of actual BTP painted models with a description of what level they are and what was payed to have them painted.
I don't have pics of my buddies models, But i can offer this small tidbit. The Blood angel army he had them do was a mech army. The tanks were bland airbrushing, without painting the bottom of the tanks, nor the back sides of the weapons (sides that would be hidden from sight) The basic troops were horrible The yellow heads were GOOPED with what looked like a blob of yellow paint that was washed with Sephia afterwards. I will give them this, The 2 hq's they did were top notch, very beautiful models. but everything else, that he paid 1900$ for..was horrible, My small time painting service here in town (just me, not even close to BTP amount of painters) with my lowest quality versus their lowest 10 to 1 any day. The worse part of this whole thing, my buddy had to send the entire army back into them, because they painted the army 2 different schemes, So they took his models and are selling them, buying new ones and redoing it all over again. And he hasn't heard from them in Weeks.
Again..my opinion of them is from seeing thier work in hand, knowing what he paid for it, reading their policies and seeing this muck up. Everyone's experience is different overall. I just wish to warn the OP about small possibilities of what could happen. If you have a large pool of cash for this commission painting, i would recommend GMM studios..lord does that guy do beautiful work.
One of the resons I have never used BTP is all their own pics and so forth are not good and everythign seems so elusive and hard to pinpoint as far as quality/prices/etc.
What I want to see are customer pics of actual BTP painted models with a description of what level they are and what was payed to have them painted.
Well to be fair, it is hard to pinpoint a price unless you can specify to them exactly what you want painted and how much you want to spend on customizations.
But yeah, the pictures on their site are not impressive. There are a ton of very low res pictures that are impossible to slog through. The pictures are all taken with a very very short depth of focus, so one model is sorta in focus and the others around it are just blurs. The model that is in focus can't really be studied because it's so low res and pixelated.
If anybody has any pictures of work that they received from BTP, please please please post them up here. Also, tell us what "level" they were painted at.
See what I mean about blurry pics where nearly everything is out of focus? I can't help but feel like they are hiding something....
I can almost tell that some of the models, esp the ones with the yellow helmets, were painted by somebody else. It kinda blows me away that they had such a hard time matching their own paint job.
Oh btw, I checked out GMM studios Their stuff is stunning. Is it much more expensive than BTP?
Thier blurry on purpose i assure you. Those Marines with yellow heads are atrocious! There is so so much paint gouped on them.. We've all just stopped talking about it at the shop cause it upsets my friend. Don't like to rub salt into his open wounds ya know. Also, BTP will keep everything you send them..that you do not literally say Hey i want that back (bits and such) Also..god forbid something happen, and you need that down payment back.. Wont happen.. AND they keep your models.
As far as GMM studios, i would suggest contacting him for sure i think he might be around the same price i am not sure. Also one more commission painter whom is well known that does insane work is Nuclerasuar here on dakka (i might have his name spelt wrong) he is a god with OSL painting.
GMM, IE Brandon Palmer does some of the very best work in the commission business. However, his waiting list is very long but his prices are comparable to BTP but at a much higher and consistent quality.
As for Nuke Arts (nucleosaur) he does great work as well but if you are in the states it sucks to send your army over seas. The shipping alone is killer and adds an even longer wait time for your finished product.
Arrathon wrote: . Also one more commission painter whom is well known that does insane work is Nuclerasuar here on dakka (i might have his name spelt wrong) he is a god with OSL painting.
It sucks that he's overseas, but if he has a good rep on dakka then a lot of my qualms are alleviated. Honestly, there are no pictures on BTP that look as good as his. None.
This:Blue Table Salamander Land Raider
Or This: Nuclealosaur DA Land Raider
Nuclealosaur DA Rhino
Wow, Nuclealosaur and GMM are in a different league than BTP honestly:
I am in possession of the eldar on BTP site listed as craftworkd korriban, the one with the Jedi style jetbikes. BTP is completely a mixed bag, very professional, very good building quality, great availability of options, but you pay out the nose for anything above basic level. Also the guy I bought that army from paid around 2500$ to have tem buy/build/paint everything, and as said above, he received 0 bits from all 3k points worth of them(incl. 6 waveserpents) not even all the guns, he only got BL,star cannons and shrunken cannons. No lasers or missiles!! Level 3 is not worth it IMO, it literally is one main color, 2 highlight colors and a major wash. Now, they level 5 models, the converted autarch and farseer holding double ended lightsabers and the avatar are just plain amazing. Great detail, and conversion on the bikes. Basically having extensive work done is worth it , basic stuff is not at all.
They did a birthday baneblade for me. Magnetized all weapons and a fantastic Steel Legion scheme on the tank and threw in the commander assembled and painted. They pride themselves on communication but I think it could have been a little better. They didn't contact me when they received the tank (I shipped), they didn't really contact me to tell me it was done, just sent an invoice. But I am satisfied and will consider them in the future for something that might need to be done.
Zygrot24 wrote: They did a birthday baneblade for me. Magnetized all weapons and a fantastic Steel Legion scheme on the tank and threw in the commander assembled and painted. They pride themselves on communication but I think it could have been a little better. They didn't contact me when they received the tank (I shipped), they didn't really contact me to tell me it was done, just sent an invoice. But I am satisfied and will consider them in the future for something that might need to be done.
@ bowloflostcells: If you're going to compare those three vehicles, we need a price tag for how much each would cost.... s&h included...
Nuke arts has great painting, but would be more of a boutique thing probably. That salamanders land raider, has highlights on the paint dents... clearly a lot of fiddly time was spent on it. The GMM paintjobs, for what I assume is intermediate level, is pretty simple airbrushing + sponge and not on par with Nuke arts, but what is the cost?
I honestly don't remember. I believe it was level 4. I know it wasn't 3.
Would you be willing to share how much you spent? Was it just the forgeworld tank and the commander?
Meade wrote: @ bowloflostcells: If you're going to compare those three vehicles, we need a price tag for how much each would cost.... s&h included...
Nuke arts has great painting, but would be more of a boutique thing probably. That salamanders land raider, has highlights on the paint dents... clearly a lot of fiddly time was spent on it. The GMM paintjobs, for what I assume is intermediate level, is pretty simple airbrushing + sponge and not on par with Nuke arts, but what is the cost?
Yeah I would love to compare the cost!
I don't know how much S&H is, but labor Nuke arts labor costs is actually much much much cheaper than BTP.
The only thing I'm saying is that I don't see anything in BTP galleries that even compare to the pictures from GMM and Nuke.
I'm not trying to bash BTP here, I'm legitimately trying to find the best place to send my minis.
They have so much stuff up, it's hard to find, but I think this army is better than GMM's tank posted there and at least the lower level Nuke Arts stuff. Nuke Arts... also that guy really knows how to photograph a miniature which seems to be something BTP has yet to master.
I guess it depends what you are after with a commission. I would have a good look around other companies' websites and email them for quotes and make sure you know what quality you are getting and for how much!
From what I've seen BTP can do some good work, but I'm not sure I like their policies. I was watching their Terrorgheist video on YouTube...the artist was clearly excited to show off his work and explain what he did. Every time he tried to name paint colors, the camera guy would awkwardly cut him off. They are very secretive which has turned me off.
I've used BTP three times, once a couple years ago for some Tau xv9 suits, they did up my salamanders last year, and recently they finished off about 60 or so marines for my Blood Ravens army. They get a little pricey for tanks and things that size but for standard troops like marines it's a little under ten dollars a model for level 3 which is plenty good. Their turn around for my marines was about 3-4 weeks but it was a lot of models. You can go to their site and check all their projects they completed for the past few years. They require roughly 50% down and the other 50% upon completion. Shipping was fast and packaged well. I spoke to James when I dealt with them and he was beyond helpful. I'd highly recommend them.
For my baneblade, assembled (plastic GW kit), magnetized and painted I spent about $300. That's upgraded paint level, btw. I felt I got my money's worth because the tank is beautiful and the magnetization is top knotch.
Meade wrote: They have so much stuff up, it's hard to find, but I think this army is better than GMM's tank posted there and at least the lower level Nuke Arts stuff. Nuke Arts... also that guy really knows how to photograph a miniature which seems to be something BTP has yet to master.
These are not bad but they are not characteristic of 95% of the stuff they have up in their gallery.
It seems the words "hit or miss" really describe BTP's work. You're playing the lottery. You spend over a $1000 on the models, the assembly and the painting, and you pray that they might come back looking like the 5% that they end up making videos with. Most of the time your models get sent through their assembly line and come out looking mediocre at best. At worst you're gonna have to fight them for a refund.
I've pretty much decided against blue table painting, but has anybody written a review on their work? If there are any good reviews up it might help me change my mind.
There are so many better painting studios than BTP.
BTP charges out the ass for their lower level quality and it looks horrible. Their level 5 and over is nice, but who's higher quality, expensive stuff isn't, really?
Examples : Nukearts( dealt with him), redmodelling( dealt with him as well), golem painting studio, worthy painting, battleworthy arts, battle brush studios, next level studio, GMM studios, winterdyne commissions, Ifalna's painting studio and so many others I'm forgetting.
A painting company I currently see a lott of on the internet is WorthyPainting.
I dont know their prices but the models they produce are all shown on their facebook page and their own site, which are quite something. It also helps them that they have a golden demon winner in the team who got into the main 40k rulebook.
But this is just a suggestion to check them out and perhaps ask them for their prices and see what you think about them.
I wish you the best of luck getting the right service
Examples : Nukearts( dealt with him), redmodelling( dealt with him as well), golem painting studio, worthy painting, battleworthy arts, battle brush studios, next level studio, GMM studios, winterdyne commissions, Ifalna's painting studio and so many others I'm forgetting.
This is a great list! Thanks for the suggestions. I'm looking through their webpages right now and their galleries are really nice!
I know that there is no reason for you to know this, but do you happen to know if any of these are based in the United States or Canada (besides GMM, I know hey are Indiana)?
BTP customer who did an in depth review of his army
Also, the problem with almost all of the companies listed above that offer commission services are over seas for US customers and that is a real turn off because shipping our miniatures over seas is a rather large extra expense.
BTP customer who did an in depth review of his army
Also, the problem with almost all of the companies listed above that offer commission services are over seas for US customers and that is a real turn off because shipping our miniatures over seas is a rather large extra expense.
This youtube video is actually extremely impressive. BTP needs to hire a professional photographer immediately, or invest in a better camera.
There's still a chance that I might end up sending my minis to BTP. Does anybody have any suggestions for how I can ensure my greatest chance of getting a good paint job, and not ending up with one of the horror stories I've been hearing about?
Derr wrote: What you're paying for with BlueTablePainting really is all about service. They respond quickly to any inquiries about assembling and painting your minis, and will even buy them for you. They've got fast turnaround time (I think the shortest?) due to multiple people working on your project at a time on well organized painting recipes picked out by you.
Sure,
Spoiler:
No way are these "prime over them". Tried cleaning up a test sample with the Detol and the modellers clay, which I was unaware of, used on some of the bases turned into gloops screwing up the model I was working on. Meh, my fault regarding the clay, but bad service regarding "We sold em to you but we didn't know about their quality" and the time took to reply.
One thing I was impressed with these models was the packaging quality though. They managed to ship 40 odd models in what seemed to be brilliant packaging, more than I would have ever used. They were cheap and this is a hobby though, just something I weren't expecting.
BTP customer who did an in depth review of his army
Also, the problem with almost all of the companies listed above that offer commission services are over seas for US customers and that is a real turn off because shipping our miniatures over seas is a rather large extra expense.
First thing I noticed mold lines and then the basing, sprinkled static grass...
That army looks like it goes pretty well with the plain grass of that table, Poipo32. I'm guessing that it was a client request, or even suggested by BTP as an option to save money.
Here are pics of some demons they did at Level 2.
Looks fairly awesome. Simple, with the main features of the claws and hair picked out. $3 to paint that model. Compare that anywhere else.
Tauownz wrote: I've used BTP three times, once a couple years ago for some Tau xv9 suits, they did up my salamanders last year, and recently they finished off about 60 or so marines for my Blood Ravens army. They get a little pricey for tanks and things that size but for standard troops like marines it's a little under ten dollars a model for level 3 which is plenty good. Their turn around for my marines was about 3-4 weeks but it was a lot of models. You can go to their site and check all their projects they completed for the past few years. They require roughly 50% down and the other 50% upon completion. Shipping was fast and packaged well. I spoke to James when I dealt with them and he was beyond helpful. I'd highly recommend them.
sorry to quote a post from last page, but this kind of sums up my problem with BTP. <$10 per model for basic troops is an absolute crime. When i do commission work i charge about 1/3 of that, and produce work of equal or greater quality.
BTP were the first channel i started really watching and following on youtube, and i thought there stuff was great. but the moment i started painting for real, and then started doing commissions, i realised how over-priced there stuff is. Having priced up a few 1000pt armies on their site, the cheapest i could manage to calculate was $900, and that was for a tiny army.
As professional as they seem, they really don't provide the service they advertise; which is a shame, because Shawn seems like a really great guy
Most of the people I see posting disparaging remarks seem to be commission painters themselves or promoting other painters from dakka.
What about their professionalism is lacking? How fast could you respond to inquiries? Do you offer to buy secondhand models and use it as credit towards painting?
Sounds like your pricing was about right - 50 cents to a dollar per point of the army is what you can expect to pay with most armies, with most painting services. How much would you charge to paint 100 Termagants? If you said more than around $300 you're full of it. BTP gets that done with a base, highlight and shade on each of the 3 colors base on a model, if not more.
What about their professionalism is lacking? How fast could you respond to inquiries?
I don't think BTP lacks anything in the way of professionalism. These guys are top notch in terms of responding to you, organizing your order and having everything shipped back to you in a timely manner. The problem is that you are paying for professionalism and now quality painted models. Their painting is really hit or miss, and even when it hits, its hard to justify the amount that they charge. You can see where their money is going. They've got an enormous office space with tons of employees. Their fees go to their overhead. But it is their overhead which allows them to be so professional.
Yes, but he's grown into that building over 9 years of consistently providing good results. Many of the clients, myself included, are repeats because we don't feel it is hit and miss. Only hit. Overhead on a building that they renovated for the city I bet is fairly low, considering. Besides, BTP seems to bee about sustainability- growing at just the right rate to avoid problems like this.
I've yet to see anyone post anything "bad" by BTP. There is really only the "not as clear as other pics" to even assume a bad paintjob over since you can't really say "this is a mistake". Especially on levels 4+. If you paid for a level 2 tank, they warn you about mold lines and such - because they want t to look good, but need you to pay for that.
With Blue Table you're paying for the name and the reliable service. Personally I find their paintjobs to be subpar, and bordering on heinous for the price. Here are some:
Seriously, look at this:
The paint is splotchy and uneven:
Barrels aren't even drilled and that powerfist is still unpainted black primer:
They do have some good work; this looks downright good for instance:
But I generally find their work to be far inferior to most commission services. When I was doing commission work, it bummed me out that they were charging far higher prices for poorer work than I was.
Heres the thing though: Post your "level two" at full pic size like that.
Small details that jump out as "wrong" may look fine as a squad across the table, or at arms length. All of those examples are lvl 2, ecvept for the hero, which is 3. Neither level should be looked at for defects that closely.
Seriously. Take your best painted model, and shoot a pic of it from all angles and post it. Defects aplenty, I assure you.
You can't pay for lvl 2 work, the quickest, cheapest lvl 2 anywhere to be found, and expect it to be flawless under a microscope. Level 4s and 5s can, but the person those minis belong to did not pay for that.
PRICE is going to be the same for any paint studio. Low budget = low quality. At least with BTP low budget does not ALSO mean that it takes 4 months.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit - that ork is a "5", and so... looks great up close!
I charged half their "level two" price for this a few years back:
I've posted pictures of my best painted models and I'm aware that extremely blown up photos will bring out any and all flaws there are in the mini. The thing is - those pictures aren't even at full size! Their images are downright puny. I'll give them credit that they can paint stuff quickly though, and while I'm fast I was just one guy doing the commissions thing.
Well, I can tell you why you're no longer selling those at $1.50.
Because that is a an insane return for your time spent painting.
I do see some faults with your blown up models though, no offense meant. Mold line on the heavy bolter ammo belt, etc. Models look great, but at that close, nobody is perfect unless they spend an insane amount of time on it. like 700 hours+ for a whole army. When will you do it? Slowly, bit by bit? Or will you leverage a team of 20 painters to have it done within the week? That second option is not widely available, unless you're BTP.
Just saying, they do some really great work on models for the time you pay for. Standard is about $10 =an hour of work= about 3 models just cranked out. $20 gets you double time on those same 3 or 6 done just basic.
It's what you'd pay a local game shop commission guy, internet forum guy, or neighbor kid to do in his free time over the next few months, but why not just invest the money and have it done right?
No offense taken! They're far from my best paintjobs, and the low rates are why I'm out of the commissions biz - people expect a whole lot for nothing at all!
So isn't there something to be said for that? For being around almost ten years?
Isn't that just inherently more trustworthy than a 16 year old in another country who has some spare time between classes to paint your models? Also, have to admit that 6000 completed projects is impressive.
How many armies or portions of armies did you paint when you did commissions?
Pooo, those are mostly unverified or inactive Dakka users. If they are verified, or stlll active on the site, what recourse do you really have for getting your models back if they end up being a fly-by-night kind of operation? If you send them to a minor that lives overseas(there are three that I noticed on the list) , do you know what INTERPOL will tell you? They will make condescending crying gestures as they make no attempt to hide the fact that they are laughing at you.
Sending something inside your own country is a great idea for many, many reasons.
Every trade has one critical moment. The moment right before you pay, before you send the package, before the deal is done. If you at all during that moment think "well this is a pretty big risk, where I can't recover anything from it" don't do that deal. Don't send $1500 packages to people you met online, who other people online said were cool. Just..dont. Don't do that.
I know I'd trust BTP with my models, even if I was just sending them in to say "appraise these and give me store credit".. Because I know if he says an amount that I don't ike, I can say no with no real penalties. If BTP paints an army, they take pics of it when they're done and send them to you. If you don't like it, they'll work with you to repaint it. They can do a pretty amazing job on color matching previous work, as well.
The recourse you have is the actions of the MODs here on dakka. I have seen many of the transaction reports for the scam deals that have happened (and they do happen everywhere, not just dakka), and most people got their stuff/money back because of the weight of several people hassling the scammer over the course of weeks. there are many people who know the exact legal action that you can take, and at least one of them will always pipe up and help out when a problem does occur.
And while i am one of those overseas 'minors', i still make the best effort to get people to trust me, because people such as yourself see us as scams waiting to happen. I even have to sell myself short to get clients because of the bad wrap people under the age of 18 get when it comes to commissions. but if the law tells me i am responsible enough to raise a family, you can be sure i will be responsible when it comes to your models that you are paying me to paint.
BTP has fantastic customer care, i can't deny that. but the actual quality of the service they are providing leaves a lot to be desired. As shown by the pictures shown earlier, their low level paintjobs are aweful at their worst, and mediocre at their very best. Even when charging full price to people who trust me, i can beat their rates, quality, and usually their turnaround time.
IMHO their great people doing a great service, just it costs a little too much for what you get (I guess they do it MUCH faster for the same quality though, so there is that)
Some of their work is alright I guess, a few around that could be said about. But, the thing about trusting companies around as long as them and almost instantly dismissing companies that haven't is simply that if no one bothered to take that chance with them in the first place they wouldn't be around to appear more trustworthy later.
The level two daemonette above looks like it'd take maybe 5 minutes a model at most. Something to aim for for lower levels I suppose and go by bulk rather than quality. One of the things they do have going for them is the seeming lack of an obnoxious watermark. Sure you should let everyone know who painted it for advertising, but the ones that draw away from the model and seem to take almost a quarter of the image just detract more often. Make it catchy, but remember you still want to show off the model.
Oh, I'm not instantly dismissing any new up and comers or anything like that.
Far from it - different people have different styles of painting and sometimes the boutique feel that those models have is something really special.
BTP is trying to set an industry standard though. If you look at a lot of their models, you will notice a constant uniform quality to the armies. They follow a pretty rigid pattern of base, highlights and wash over all three of the colors used, so nine paint steps total. Just like you can look at a brown foam gaming table with green flock and instantly recognize it as a classic industry standard, BTP wants to do that with models.
I'm not sure that I follow you WAAAGH. Mods are not police, and cannot force anyone to pay. Liam Neeson is not going to help find your models. Peer pressure to do the right thing is kind of a really terrible insurance policy. Thieves are kind of unscrupulous and not caring of what you think, and if they take any kind of "you're going to have to find me and take them" stance, you're kind of boned. Especially internationally, and especially with minors like yourself. Oh, kids. < That's what the police would tell me, not my thoughts. I respect your tenacity and go getter spirit.
Not_me, you make an excellent point about the watermark. I think a reason for this is that they've put so much work into developing their style. You can definitely tell that a model is painted by BTP.
Interesting thread. I do enjoy their YouTube videos, although I doubt I'll do any business with them, or any commission painter, as I enjoy the painting myself. I am considering trading some stuff I don't want for other trade stock, but depends on the deal I could get from him.
The pics on their site do suck though, and it's hard to really see exactly what you would be getting. That's pretty big money for a full army...the price of a fast brand new gaming PC, quality tools, a mountain bike etc. sucks to hear about the bits, since that guy presumably had them buy all the kits and build and paint them for him. I'd want every last bit, myself.
Derr wrote: I'm not sure that I follow you WAAAGH. Mods are not police, and cannot force anyone to pay. Liam Neeson is not going to help find your models. Peer pressure to do the right thing is kind of a really terrible insurance policy. Thieves are kind of unscrupulous and not caring of what you think, and if they take any kind of "you're going to have to find me and take them" stance, you're kind of boned. Especially internationally, and especially with minors like yourself. Oh, kids. < That's what the police would tell me, not my thoughts. I respect your tenacity and go getter spirit.
You are right, the mods aren't police, however they do tend to know their way around the law, and how to make sure you do get your stuff back. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good considering how many people would simply say "you should have been more careful"
As for your point about minors, it tends to be just as easy, if not easier to deal with them, due to the fact that they are under the authority of their parents. It's just as easy to find out the email address of someone's parents as it is to find out their address if you contact the authorities. Any parent in that situation would be pretty quick about forcing their kid to give back everything they stole, along with a little bit more if you are lucky (even if that is just the satisfaction of hearing what their punishment was).
basing isn't mandatory for a commission, some people prefer to do their own as it's such a tricky thing to describe. even unbased, those models are worth far more than $10
Indeed. I gave the customers exactly what he wanted. no models were to be based and they were already primed and assembled. I did have to clean up some of their old work and they left mold lines but it wan't my job to clean that up.
I used BTP for a brief period back in 2005 and 2006. They were the first professional painting service that I commissioned and initially I was very pleased with their work. However, I soon learned that their painting style did not suit the majority of armies that I played, and the cost to quality ratio was skewed in a manner that I did not find acceptable.
I agree with what others have posted regarding the friendly and professional manner in which BTP conducts business. I really think that is BTP's major strength. In each and every commission I conducted with BTP I felt confident that I would receive my miniatures back painted to my specifications. And towards the end when I was unhappy with a commission Shawn worked with me to bring about a somewhat satisfying conclusion to some problems that arose. So, in the arena of customer service they are top-notch. However, when it comes to painting I simply would not recommend the service. I have found their painting is problematic mainly for the high price and inconsistency of paint work they produce over an extended period of time. Having an army painted in stages where you send chunks at a time resulted in figures that sort of looked cohesive from afar, but had glaring issues the more scrutiny you gave the models. And I am not referring to the scrutiny between various paint levels, I am talking outright different colors used on the main elements of the army, basing, ect. Not having consistent paintwork over a span of a few months was a major deal breaker for me and why I prefer to use commission studios who have a smaller staff and less turn around in their painting staff.
For assembly and conversions my opinion is different. After having followed BTP's YouTube videos for a number of years I remain impressed with some of the creative ways in which they assemble and magnetize their client's models (which they charge a suitably hefty sum for). I would still consider sending an assembly project their way if I needed that sort of service, but I really doubt I would ever send another model to be painted.
BTP is great at painting undead. Their "style" of painting makes mummies, skeletons, and rotting corpses really pop. I was less impressed with how they handled models of living creatures and war machines.
For another US-based service that I absolutely adore check out Garden Ninja Studios. www.gardenninja.com
I have been using that service for over three years now and have had nothing but success. Plus, some of the projects that Garden Ninja has painted for me have spanned multiple years with the consistency of the paint work staying so close that it is difficult, or at times impossible, for me to distinguish when one model was painted over another.
Just wanted to pop in and say I've seen a lot of varied quality come out of BTP, but it is very important to keep in mind that sometimes some of their lower grade stuff is lower grade because it is being painted over prepainted, recycled models because thats what the customer WANTED.
Quite often when commissioning you get sent badly primed, already painted, or just very low quality casts and the customer does not want to pay extra to have them stripped and fixed up. Heck, I charge for any significant mold line removal. Not doing so would be a bit crazy, but a lot of the time the customer is totally ok with leaving mold lines even if other viewers would then see the images and point them out.
It's down to what the customer wants for their cash, not what people compare it to otherwise.
I do personally feel they overcharge a bit for their lower quality stuff, BUT that gets balanced out by how great they are to work with. You pay extra for the assurance of communication and feedback. I've seen them offer to repaint things the customer ended up unhappy with for free, so you seem covered either way!
For another US-based service that I absolutely adore check out Garden Ninja Studios. www.gardenninja.com
I have been using that service for over three years now and have had nothing but success. Plus, some of the projects that Garden Ninja has painted for me have spanned multiple years with the consistency of the paint work staying so close that it is difficult, or at times impossible, for me to distinguish when one model was painted over another.
Ifalna wrote: Just wanted to pop in and say I've seen a lot of varied quality come out of BTP, but it is very important to keep in mind that sometimes some of their lower grade stuff is lower grade because it is being painted over prepainted, recycled models because thats what the customer WANTED.
Qft. That green flocked army on the green flocked table is a perfect example of the customer getting what they wanted. Also, their web store ( http://www.freewebstore.org/bluetablepainting ) has better prices than ebay.
I am horribly worried that none has mentioned BuyPainted...
His work is absolutely stunning, a bit pricey though...
But the attention to details, his highlighting and his work with bases and mold lines is amazing!
Go check out his youtube page!
KrMaH wrote: I am horribly worried that none has mentioned BuyPainted...
His work is absolutely stunning, a bit pricey though...
But the attention to details, his highlighting and his work with bases and mold lines is amazing!
Go check out his youtube page!
I went on buypainted's webpage (buypainted.com) and couldn't figure out what he was selling. His site is set up blog style, so I don't know which one are for sale, which ones are sold, which ones are just tutorials etc etc. I spent a few minutes on his site and gave up. But yeah, nice paint jobs.
Hey guys, sorry about the late reply I just spotted this thread.
A year ago I would have recommended BTP for reliable service and good quality IF you picked one of the good artists, which was most of them.
I can't say that now. They have lost almost all of their8 good talent and experience in the last few months, resulting in some very hit and miss paint jobs.
They are also having serious money issues that only get worse by the week due to a long string of bad business choices and money management by Shaun.
I will be suprised if BTP doesn't implode in the next few months.
KrMaH wrote: I am horribly worried that none has mentioned BuyPainted...
His work is absolutely stunning, a bit pricey though...
But the attention to details, his highlighting and his work with bases and mold lines is amazing!
Go check out his youtube page!
I went on buypainted's webpage (buypainted.com) and couldn't figure out what he was selling. His site is set up blog style, so I don't know which one are for sale, which ones are sold, which ones are just tutorials etc etc. I spent a few minutes on his site and gave up. But yeah, nice paint jobs.
his a commisioner so you email him with the things you want, the look you want and he will paint it for you. The stuff he paint are very high quality, for 5 GK termis in his tutorial its gonna cost you £150-£200 (a friend of my does commisions and gave me a estimate price) But you can always ask him directly.
You guys might be interested in this thread:
www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2012/10/22/65829/
What the heck is this? Sorry, this just came to my attention. I watched this video called "Huge Discourse on BTP's Kickstarter", 26 min of patting himself on the back. Ok up to this point I was just skeptical about BTP but after seeing that I'm really not liking these guys.
He's making it seem like he invented the idea of custom painted armies. He's making it seem like he's the only one who has done prepainted armies before (even though he admits that they are all over ebay.)
From everything I've seen, BTP's work is sub-par at best. It's nearly never worth what they charge. They are already a huge impersonal, indifferent to quality and customer experience assembly line, and they are raising more money to create an even larger indifferent/impersonal assembly line. He even described it as such saying that customer's would have a ticket and watch these armies get cranked out.
BTP is great at promoting themselves. They are turning into the Walmart and McDonalds of commission painting. Crap quality, but their videos seem to be everywhere and you can't get away from them. It is my fear that, just as Walmart has put out of business many mom and pop shops, BTP is putting out of business many high quality commission painters. To me this is extremely disturbing.
From the time that I was thinking of using BTP until now, I had kept and open mind and given them the benefit of the doubt. After watching that video, I can clearly say that I have never seen somebody more full of himself than this man.
There are some very serious criminal charges in these comments, including tax fraud:
"... we were advised to misrepresent our work status to the IRS and refused. That and honest criticism got us all fired. “. surely that is illegal isn’t it ?"
This definitely is not proof that any sort of tax fraud actually happened. But with such serious charges, I hope that these claims are investigated thoroughly.
It also seems that Shawn has been censoring criticism in his youtube comments, which appears to be the main reason that I never see negative comments on his youtube videos. There's nothing but adoring fans there:
bluetablepaintingshawn wrote:
October 29, 2012 at 11:37 am
I try and keep things positive on my Youtube channel. I tend it carefully like a garden. If it seems to me that someone wants to just start up a firestorm I make that go away.
ianj253 wrote: @renfro and how do you have inside knowledge of their financial situation? It seems to me like they are doing better than ever before.
I worked there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You guys might be interested in this thread:
www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2012/10/22/65829/
I suggest everyone read this, its amazing what you find.
I have almost read it all and I have seen atleast 3 ex employee/trial painters saying how untrustworthy and dishonest BTP is. The point out the main points:
1. BTP actively delete negative comments on youtube while in the thread says "completely in the open".
2. Attitude towards employees are terriable, one of the trial painters (TrojanArtPainting, Dan) did not even get to speak to the manager at the place for a week.
3. Their trial scheme is rubbish. You get to live in a rented house with only a bed and you work extreme hours and they don't pay for over time.
4. I have noticed BTP have not commented/replied to any of the comments from their ex employee or people who worked with/for them.
5. Apparently they are in trouble with orders or money (but its sorted out now from what BTP is saying) read the thread and judge for yourself.
I personally whould not like to be part of this company nor ever let them paint my models, more on topic, the kick starter is just a big lie to get them money, free money.
Iv been pestering BTP the past few days (im down with the flu right now so it seems like years lol ) about this whole kickstarter thing .iv pretty much had all my comments removed and my accounts blocked . to me this just seems like BTP blagging hard cash off their fans yet again .anybody remember them asking for people to donate money towards paint and roller blinds for the building ? yeah well i looked up the state laws on that at the time ,and thats all stuff they can right off v tax plus any money they got was ah donation so therefore not taxable .thats handy isnt it you buy paint & blinds then right it off and put the hand out to your fans for the same money the tax man just let you off with lol win win for BTP .dont think to many people were to happy with me about that but i say what i see and i dont let abuse from fanboys get me down when i see wargamers being exploited .
BTP have been doing the really hard sell lately with the whole forget what you really need and just pay us for an army .now i dont mind somebody saying at the end of vids "hey check out our site we have some good deals" what i dont like is being brow beaten for 10-25min about why im scum if i dont give them the best part of £1000 for an army that looks awful .i dont want to kick the wasps nest but the kind of people who flat out defend BTP tend to say the same kinds of things as people who do the same every year GW has a price hike .to me fanboys wreck any hobby or comunity because they just wont see sense and arent helping real fans at all .but i was beginning to feel like i was banging my head off a brick wall with this whole kickstarter thing .
How BTP can put the hand out to their youtube fans to the tune of $40.000 is beyond me .esp when they have loads of trade stock knocking about they could make nice small starter armies of say 1000pts out of no bother .it just seems to me youtube or at least a large section of it has become all about ego`s and e-begging these days .and thats a large part of why i dont post any stuff on there anymore .today i got that fed up with having my comments removed and being blocked for telling people to check out the TGN thread i made a rubbish video .it was in the vain hope somebody would see it and at least goto TGN and see for themselves whats going on over there ,but as always there seems to be like minded people out there scratching their heads and asking the same questions .
Like i say im really not feeling good right now what with the flu an all ,but i will make the time to go back thru the posts on here and see what other gamers have been saying .but first i need meds and hot tae lol
Well, honestly I was looking at them to paint my army in the near future. But probably will not. After completely ready the TGN thread, I must say that I am a bit surprised. But I guess Shawn has been able to keep quite a bit of people in lala land with his "shock-wave's of happiness."
I must say that I was never really inclined to hand out for the KickStarter. The one I was contemplating was the Reaper for their Bones line. The reason I bring this up is because it was light and day the rewards you got for contributing between one KS and the other.
I can understand the smaller pledge rewards not being that entertaining. But if you are donating 2-300 or more you should get more than a small pat on the back. Most of the rewards seem just that, a pat on the back. And its not like they could not do something with all the trade stock they already have. Say if you donate 100, you get 1 SM tactical squad painted to Level 3. How much did he pay for that tactical squad in trade? Nothing really, he gave someone who commissioned an army maybe 10-15 dollars (if that) off his project.
I believe if they are in the trouble that is sounds like from reading the TGN thread, they really should have put a bit more thought into their KS.
Ok since people here seem to be interested in whats going on over at the TGN page .you may want to head over there and look at the last few posts .by the way you may find this link useful as btp are claiming the tax issue is about the workers being described as contractors not employees and yes that matters, what happened to “We pay $11 per hour, which I think is pretty good for regular work painting miniatures. –Shawn”
now it`s "Robert here again.The tax thing is a very old matter. It was a problem of how employees were described to the IRS. We described them as independent contractors because they were paid on commission (which is correct by law),
I`l admit i know very little about US tax laws .and i dont know all the facts thats a given really .but heres the US tax laws covering all this .you can make of that what you will but it diffidently makes for interesting reading given whats going on at the moment .right im off to drink lots of hot tae and nurse this flu .
Arrathon wrote: . Also one more commission painter whom is well known that does insane work is Nuclerasuar here on dakka (i might have his name spelt wrong) he is a god with OSL painting.
It sucks that he's overseas, but if he has a good rep on dakka then a lot of my qualms are alleviated. Honestly, there are no pictures on BTP that look as good as his. None.
This:Blue Table Salamander Land Raider
Or This: Nuclealosaur DA Land Raider
Nuclealosaur DA Rhino
Wow, Nuclealosaur and GMM are in a different league than BTP honestly:
GMM Salamander Rhino
Meade wrote:@ bowloflostcells: If you're going to compare those three vehicles, we need a price tag for how much each would cost.... s&h included...
Nuke arts has great painting, but would be more of a boutique thing probably. That salamanders land raider, has highlights on the paint dents... clearly a lot of fiddly time was spent on it. The GMM paintjobs, for what I assume is intermediate level, is pretty simple airbrushing + sponge and not on par with Nuke arts, but what is the cost?
Hey guys!
We can't let you know the cost on here incase it violates Dakka's T +C. However I can assure you it was very competitive! Feel free to email me at Ukrep@nukearts.co.uk (even if you don't want a commission, we love dealing with hobbists and alot are pleasantly surprised by our prices!)
Or alternatively check through our facebook pictures, we are very open about quality and pricing!
I'm glad you mentioned us here, and bowl I have pmed you. Just incase there were any questions you wished to ask us, we'd like to help you if possible!
Thank you for claiming our work is boutique! It's great to hear it explained as so.
I'd like to take some time to explain us though:
However what we do is build and paint armies. And we definitely do armies to that standard. We have lower and higher standards, but we like to think we are competitively priced and that we offer great quality. We have a team of dedicated artists, who are simply pro with both airbrush and hand brush. We are also constantly striving to improve, and pride ourselves that each stage of the project is handled by a person who is a master in that aspect. Our team are pros before they touch our valued customer's minis.
We are also dedicated to giving 100% customer sanctification and service, despite time differences we reply to queries within 24 hours, and we are only an email away. You can even contact us via facebook message, which we will often reply to almost immediately. We follow customers instruction to the letter to ensure they are 100% happy, and we use safe, tracked insured courier. We also have the ability to order minis in for you.
We also want to give back to the community, and are looking to sponsor events.
Sorry for hijacking the thread, I saw our name mentioned and just wanted to assure people we paint, assemble and convert full armies, at very competitive prices! We are also growing all the time, so there is no fear in that regard.
I work for Blue Table Painting, and would like to post my perspective. Now I haven’t read every post here. Keep that in mind please.
Pick the painting service that is right for you! Every company / person is different
Now, a little bit about me and who I work for.
I have been at dakka dakka for a while, I even have a Warseer account (started there back when it was Portent.net, but haven't posted there in forever) My various accounts are all under the same name. I have a decent reputation on batertown and ebay (ebay is igen-s-tilch) Also posted what I have worked on, on my deviant art account. -Side note, don’t judge to harshly at my old conversions and painting, its gotten worlds better by working with the painters and assemblers at Blue Table Painting.
Moving on then. I started back in June 2012. Originally I was a painter, I worked for commission, I was not paid hourly. I would be assigned an order, given a time frame for how quickly it needed to be done, I was also given a sheet that had the quality requested, as well as final instructions that the client requested. Most of the problems I would encounter were due to unclear client instructions. I was trained, shown different techniques, and was trusted to do a job well. Once it was turned in, some one would examine my work, if it didn’t match quality, It would be sent back to me. And I would have to keep working on it until it passed inspection.
At the end of August. I was given the opportunity to work in assembly, doing conversion work and such. Which is where I work mainly now (turns out I was more efficient at assembly than painting).
The company has gone through significant changes sense I have started there. And all of them are changes that are trying to make things better, for BTP, and our clients. Quality control has been tightened significantly. It used to be that if a client paid for a low quality model, mold lines were not cleaned up very well, due to limited budget, which is directly related to the amount of time we can spend on it. Now every model is cleaned up to table top quality, even more so if a client has requested custom work and higher level painting. We are not producing Golden Daemon on a mass scale, what we are doing is providing table top quality armies in mass. If you want a model that wows people, we have to spend significantly more time on it. And I have to eat and pay the bills. Time is money, just the way it is, I would love to spend extra hours on every project, but its not in the budget, finite funds means finite time. But take a look at our recent work for an accurate estimate of quality. http://www.bluetablepainting.com/index.php
Over all, I love my job, its a dream job to me. I quit a full time job with benefits to work full time for Shawn. I see him every day, and yea, he is not your average man, Though honestly, it takes a different kind of person to be a hobbyist, an artist, and a business man. I'm glad he established Blue Table Painting, and has given me an opportunity to work with the games I love for a living.
Now there are some ex-employes with hurt feelings, I was almost one of them (when we made the switch to hourly, My time spent vs productivity wasn't looking very good). Many artists hate having to work by the hour for painting or sculpting (how many people time themselves by the minute when painting or sculpting?), it is a unique position to have. The commission system was done away with. The switch to hourly was a blow to many of our staff who had other things to work around, and those that took the job for a loose work schedule. There were a lot of changes and adjustments. It didn't work for every one. There are rough patches, as it is for any small company. Sadly some trial painters arrived during those rough patches, and things didn't go smoothly. There will most likely be some more rough patches in the future. But I can promise every one here, we that work there, all the staff, want to make this a successful company, and happy, satisfied customers are the main key to that, I take pride in getting an email or comment on how happy a client is with the work I have done. I live for it. I also feel it personally when a client disliked my conversion. (though the only time that occurred was due to a unclear client instruction.)
We have some unhappy clients. It happens. Expectations for art work can be hard to gauge. If you are unhappy with our work. PLEASE contact us. We cant do anything about it if we don't know. But we do have a significant amount of return customers, Today a project hit my desk that was the tenth order from that individual.
With regards to picture quality on our web site. It is my opinion that it was done that way for years, because of limited budget for a web site. Higher data traffic increase costs and such. This is being addressed. There are improvements coming, and increased picture quality is on the priority list.
On the subject of the other forum thread, we didn't even know about it till very recently. Shawn decided to feed the trolls by posting a response. Some BTP staff may have submitted their 2 cents. I wont post there, at least on this topic, due to me not being an active member in that community, and would have to open a new account. Just remember, people love to say a lot of things on the internet (for better or worse) when they can hide behind a pen name.
Pick the painting service that is right for you! Every company / person is different.
PS: I'm posting this all on my own, Shawn and my art director said we are free to act on this as we see fit.
2nd PS: I personally was not a fan of the kickstarter, I enjoy doing made to order armies. But Shawn thinks there's a market for it. Though I am tempted to put my own money in for a fully painted Infinity army. Either way, I will stay with BTP and Shawn till life takes me elsewhere.
Quick question for Nukearts, what was the cost... EDIT: What was the time spent on that land raider? I honestly would like to know how we compare in pricing to other services.
Man I would be cagey as heck in dealing with BTP at the moment, my mate decided to give them a whirl with a new list expansion.. that was over 5 weeks ago and they only just told him they haven't actually ordered any models yet!!!
All the while Shawn is on youtube telling us about how fast their turn around is, and now it's all about this cash injection they are chasing via kickstarter.
From where I am sitting it appears to me, and it's just my opinion that BTP have no cash flow and a company with no cash flow is dead quick smart. They are constantly coming up with ways to get cash upfront that's not redeemable immediately and looking for an investor.
Would love to know how much "store" credit (debt) is on the books as a liability. All I know is when you can't order peoples models due to lack of funds something is up... and if it isn't due to a lack of funds BTP talks the talk but can't walk the walk of real customer service.
I really hope they pull out the stops for my mates sake but to be honest I am expecting it to be a train wreck and a very costly lesson.
TGN comments are stopped and it was kinda getting outta hand over there.but all other matters aside and trying to get back on what this all meant to be about .i do think the tone of recent year or so BTP videos have really gone with the hard sell,and its been getting to the stage were we have 10-20min video`s on why we should forget everything and purchase a BTP army asap .it feels like your being brow beaten to the point were its oh here we go again the same old .i think that kinda already had peoples backs up before the kickstarter .esp now youtube has gotten more about money and ego`s .im forgetting youtube adds before video`s which are basically add`s .anyway then its we are doing a kickstarter so we can paint more stuff ? and we want $40.000 to do what we do anyway ok ?
so people who are into the hobby and have already backed a few kickstarters chances are get really pissed off .its like me saying hey i sell turnips and people cant get enough of them in fact its very important i sell lots of them so give me $40.000 and il send you some turnips ? this isn't like the cd above that i assume had new tracks on it tracks nobody would know about without fans chipping in .if BTP really wants to help new gamers get into the hobby and get return customers wouldn't it be better to tone down the brow beating ,not saying dont mention what you do i mean that is the point of the video`s after all to show case your stuff and let gamers know what you do .
but man ya really gotta tone that down .the other thing would be to get that stuff in trade stock and make small battle force style armies that don't need to be big flashy uber armies .even 500pts cant remember the rules for that (me not 40k player) that would give people a way into the hobby even go smaller than that .if they are happy with the service and get into the game chances are you will have those same gamers coming back from time to time and saying hey you couldn't paint me up xyz from your trade stock .ok it may not be cutting edge stuff but its an in .there's a fair few people out there playing a low pts plus you can throw it in with your regular army in your army bag or whatever .game ends early but not enough time to get another full game or just feel like a change .my point is you should be doing more with what you already have ,not brow beating fans and then flat out asking for money .it gets gamers backs up .its not fun when your watching video`s in which you are constantly being nagged .
I was subscribed to BTP on youtube because the guy running the channel seemed like a friendly sort of person. I was really hoping to get some painting tips when I originally subscribed. Unfortunetly, the channel seems to have degenerated into very, very long-winded sales pitches to try to get peoples' money. And for a company that supposedly specializes in painting minis, I haven't seen much in the way of helpful videos for people out there aspiring to paint. Last few months have been one silly video after another, and not very much showcasing their finished product.
About the only reason I'm still subscribed at this point is because of their crossover stuff with Miniwargaming. Someone should advise Miniwargaming to be alert to what BTP is doing. Don't loan them any money, and don't attempt any sort of joint-venture business with them until BTP clears up the internal problems they seem to be riddled with lately.
I had planned on writing a lengthy and specific reply on the TGN forum (I'm Disgruntled_Ex), but since comments have been disabled, I'm here to present the facts of my allegations.
Robert replied: "The tax thing is a very old matter. It was a problem of how employees were described to the IRS. We described them as independent contractors because they were paid on commission (which is correct by law), yet they went ahead and filed as employees because they felt that independent contractors shouldn’t be allowed to be given specific instructions regarding their work. I was a Realtor for a long time, and every Realtor is an independent contractor. I am pretty familiar with the law, and I know for a fact that IC’s can be given extremely specific instructions. It was really just a bunch of people who got mad about having to complete jobs in a timely fashion. It is the sad nature of most people, that when there is no deadline and on one watching, that they drag their feet. They felt it was against the law for us to set deadlines for work. So they caused some problems. There are a few more details, but most of those are on a personal level with the specific people (and I don’t typically air dirty laundry as they say), so I’ll leave those out, unless they wish to disclose them, at which point I can go into detail. But that is for sure, the long and short of it. No tax fraud problems, we are fine, still here, still going."
Robert is either woefully misinformed or intentionally misrepresenting the facts.
Here are the facts:
During 2006-2008 my wife and I worked for BTP as Office Manager and artist, respectively. We were hired as independent contractors, and required to sign a non-compete agreement as a condition of our working for BTP. This agreement stated that we would not seek out work that could in any way be construed as competition for BTP. The contract did not state a time period - in essence, the contact implied an indefinite agreement. Shawn Gately confirmed this by telling me that even after we left BTP, if we painted for profit, he was completely within his rights to come after us "for every dollar" we might make.
The status of independent contractor is defined, by IRS law, as a service provider that has at least 2 different customers/clients in a calender year. Anything less, and you're really an employee. These regulations are clearly stated on the IRS website, and can be fact checked in less than 2 minutes.
Approximately 8 months into out time at BTP, my wife was approached by Shawn. He suggested that she make a website advertising her administrative services, so it would appear that she was not his employee but rather a contractor for hire. Let me be clear about this: Shawn suggested this, this was his idea, and the obvious and only explanation for this is that he was trying to avoid having employees and avoid paying employee taxes, etc.
After a very short discussion, my wife and I agree that we would in no way deceive anyone re: our tax status, and this situation needed to be discussed before April, when we were due to file our taxes. Around this same time, I began selling painted miniatures on eBay to supplement my income.
The next few months saw 4 separate meetings regarding BTPs workers tax status. We had all signed agreements (quickly discovered to be nonenforceable and not legally binding) that insisted we not work for anyone but BTP, and yet we were also instructed to file taxes as independent contractors. In meeting after meeting, that impossible combination was brought up, and time and again, Shawn Gately ignored our concerns. He insisted his agreements were valid and accurate and that he was perfectly capable and willing to take any of us to court to have them enforced. Simultaneously, he insisted that we were all independent contractors and that we should file as such. During the last meeting, when presented with a printout of the IRS tax page entitled "Am I an employee or independent contractor?" clearly supporting our conclusions and concerns, Shawn replied by saying, "Well, you know, I don't think anyone really knows what the exact law is."
48 hours after that meeting, we had another meeting, where we were all fired.
3 painters were immediately rehired, and oddly enough, those 3 painters were the people who were not assertive or contentious re: the tax status issue.
My wife and I files our taxes as employees. We were contacted by the IRS and by Mr. Gately's attorney for information regarding our claims. Mr. Gately attempted to contact us multiple times to 'talk things over," and we did not return his calls.
As I said, this was 4 years ago. I do not know who Robert from the above quote is. But I can say with absolute certainty that the explanation and dismissal he has provided is not factual in any way. During my time at BTP, I was the 2nd highest painter re: productivity, was promoted to Art Director, and honestly enjoyed my work. Productivity was never an issue. Deadlines were not a problem. I never once witness a complaint or voiced one re: specific project instructions. Robert's conclusions are simply incorrect.
Igenstilch wrote: I love my job, its a dream job to me. I quit a full time job with benefits to work full time for Shawn. I see him every day, and yea, he is not your average man, Though honestly, it takes a different kind of person to be a hobbyist, an artist, and a business man. I'm glad he established Blue Table Painting, and has given me an opportunity to work with the games I love for a living.
2nd PS: I personally was not a fan of the kickstarter, I enjoy doing made to order armies. But Shawn thinks there's a market for it. Though I am tempted to put my own money in for a fully painted Infinity army. Either way, I will stay with BTP and Shawn till life takes me elsewhere.
Wow, people were saying that BTP is like a cult... this is definitely not helping you.
48 hours after that meeting, we had another meeting, where we were all fired.
Shawn wrote in a comment something that is a bit contradictory. He says he didn't fire any of you, and that you guys went on to start your own company. Which is the truth?:
Rob does have one detail incorrect: I didn’t fire my then-workers. Most of them started up their own painting company and went out on their own. Again, I wished them well then and still do so. I have gone forward with a heart free of ill-will.
You are saying that the IRS investigated these claims. What came out of this investigation?
If you look at the TGN thread you will see that Shawn himself says he choose not to defend the complaint and the IRS made him pay up;
When someone files a complaint with the IRS they assume guilt. Instead of fighting it I just conceded and paid the interest and penalties. Basically those that filed the complaint got what they wanted. Legally, the matter is settled. “Compliance” I think they called it.
When the whopping bill came due (they want it all paid immediately and up front) my family was devastated. It was about half what we made in a year.
To me they pretty much vindicates what these ex employee's have been saying, and if they are being truthful on that matter I don't see why they aren't being truthful on the others they have raised. You only choose not to fight something worth 50% of your annual income when you know you are in the wrong.
I really hope they turn some things around, and it looks like Worthy Painting might be taking the good lessons to be learned from BTP and moving in their own direction.. I would be interested to know if their is a financial arrangement here as the Worthy Paintings website while a lot better looking is almost word for word BTP... the Polices etc are pretty much identical. Shawn has also been mentioning them quite a bit in his youtube videos of late..
We were contacted by the IRS and by Mr. Gately's attorney for information regarding our claims.
I am sorry that you and your wife had to go through that. You are saying that the IRS investigated these claims. What came out of this investigation?
I honestly can't say, as I wasn't around for the actual events. I can say a friend was one of those immediately-rehired painters, and he confirmed that BTP had problems with the IRS as a result - fines, etc. but even he didn't give hard facts - I assume he only relayed what Shawn might have been saying around the studio. However, in the now-closed TGN thread, Shawn writes:
"When someone files a complaint with the IRS they assume guilt. Instead of fighting it I just conceded and paid the interest and penalties."
I'm taking that as confirmation that he was investigated by the IRS, that his claiming actual employees as independent contractors was discovered, and he was fined/penalized.
48 hours after that meeting, we had another meeting, where we were all fired.
Shawn wrote in a comment something that is a bit contradictory. He says he didn't fire any of you, and that you guys went on to start your own company. Which is the truth?:
The truth is that 3 of us at BTP - 1 assembler and 2 painters - were proactive once we discovered the IRS status discrepancy. None of us wanted problems with the IRS, so we started doing work on the side to fulfill the 'at least 2 clients' aspect of the IRS requirements. And for the record, comparing our workload to BTP would be like comparing a hot dog stand to McDonalds. We were not competition for BTP. We had no desire to compete with BTP.
This side company was brought up at the 4th and final meeting, and we were told this 'betrayal' was one of the primary factors in Shawn's decision to 'return to solo painting" and let everyone go. So, to be clear - we did not leave to form a separate company. We formed a side company, and were then fired from BTP.
Rob does have one detail incorrect: I didn’t fire my then-workers. Most of them started up their own painting company and went out on their own. Again, I wished them well then and still do so. I have gone forward with a heart free of ill-will.
Blue Table Painting does good work for a fair price. Their staff is very professional and were extremely easy to work with. I was very satisfied with the limited project that I commissioned through them.
Here is the deal. This is a hobby so paint your own stuff. Of course this isn't a realistic idea for many players out their who either have zero talent, no patience, or want the latest and greatest, power build without having to do any work on their own to paint it. ( Note - BTP is now running a special on Cron Air as well as Flamers and Screamers! ) Seriously, they offer a decent service and you get what you pay for. There will always be critics, and there will always be the stories of people who contract for level 2-3 painting and post that they were cheated because every model wasn't Golden Daemon quality. If you are cautious of what you will get, contract a small squad with maybe one character or two before you lay out big bucks for a whole army. Again, if you don't like what they do, pick up your own paintbrush, just quite flaming on Shawn and his staff when you are too damn lazy to paint your own junk!
MajorSoB wrote: ...if you don't like what they do, pick up your own paintbrush, just quite flaming on Shawn and his staff when you are too damn lazy to paint your own junk!
My contribution to this thread wasn't flaming, and it wasn't motivated by laziness or jealousy or even resentment.
Both Robert AND Shawn clearly distorted the facts on the TGN thread. I felt compelled to set the record straight.
Seriously, they offer a decent service and you get what you pay for.
No, you obviously miss the point of this thread. Originally the purpose of this thread was to determine whether or not Blue Table Painting was worth their price. The general consensus after considering many people's testimony on BTP's quality and comparing their results to other commission painters out there, is that they are not worth the price. You do not get what you pay for.
The final word is that there are many painters much better than BTP, may of them are also considerably cheaper. Also due to the questionable ethical practices of BTP, I will refrain from using their services.
I hope that the current controversy surrounding BTP will push people to start looking at the many other quality commission painters who are working honestly and ethically.
Please don't hop onto a thread that you haven't read and say that you have the final word. Thanks.
I was reading the the thread over on TGN and the comments have been turned off so I decided to hop over here.
If you read BTP's comments it seems all of their painters are counted as "Independent Contractors" to the IRS. So I followed another link someone posted in the TGN mega thread about the difference between "Employees" and "Indpendent Contractors." It says that an Independent Contractor is expected to use all his/her own personal tools in the completion of a job. However, in TrojanArtPainting's thread he says one of the painters took him over to the communal tool area provided by BTP. (I guess this means paint and brushes.) But, if the BTP painters are getting their paints and brushes from BTP then they can't be considered independent contractors. They would have to buy all the paints and brushes needed for each project themselves. Am I reading that right?
At least speaking from my time there, we were all required to provide our own paints, brushes, palettes, whatever we needed. BTP did offer a 'supply cabinet' of basic paint colors, glue, putty, etc. at retail prices.
I can only conclude that TAP's experience of being given a different brush was a 'corporate culture' thing, and not a tax status confusion. Productivity and speed were/are the primary painting values at BTP, so it's no surprise that a bigger/fatter brush was recommended. That being said, I think in the TGN thread, Shawn says his workers are employees now, as he quotes an hourly wage - that would mean BTP should provide any and all materials required for the job. I wonder if that's true.
HarlequinZero wrote: I was reading the the thread over on TGN and the comments have been turned off so I decided to hop over here.
If you read BTP's comments it seems all of their painters are counted as "Independent Contractors" to the IRS. So I followed another link someone posted in the TGN mega thread about the difference between "Employees" and "Indpendent Contractors." It says that an Independent Contractor is expected to use all his/her own personal tools in the completion of a job. However, in TrojanArtPainting's thread he says one of the painters took him over to the communal tool area provided by BTP. (I guess this means paint and brushes.) But, if the BTP painters are getting their paints and brushes from BTP then they can't be considered independent contractors. They would have to buy all the paints and brushes needed for each project themselves. Am I reading that right?
BTP had their employees claim themselves to be contractors for the purpose of defrauding the IRS and the United States Government.
It is already clear that they were in fact employees.
It is already clear that Shawn of BTP had some of his employees engage in activity to appear as if they were contractors, such as setting up phony websites offering services.
It is also clear that Shawn was investigated by the IRS and was forced to settle with them because they found BTP in violation. Although he has not admitted this to the public, paying the IRS is in fact an admission of guilt.
Instead of fighting it I just conceded and paid the interest and penalties. Basically those that filed the complaint got what they wanted. Legally, the matter is settled. “Compliance” I think they called it. I even made a few friends at the IRS.
The matter is now settled w.r.t. the IRS, but as far as I am concerned, this truly reflects poorly on the character of Shawn and the nature of his business. Forcing your employees to masquerade as contractors is not an honest thing to do. Shawn did not "accidentally" deviate from compliance of the tax code. He knowingly broke the tax code through the use of deception, and coerced others into assisting him, in order to save a buck. I refuse to support any business that engages in unethical activities such as defrauding the government.
It is my fear that such dishonest practices will continue and will be encouraged by the injection of cash that BTP will be getting through their new Kickstarter.
Quick question for Nukearts, what was the cost... EDIT: What was the time spent on that land raider? I honestly would like to know how we compare in pricing to other services.
Hey,
sorry we can't post price due to the T+C of Dakkadakka. As for time, it takes as long as it takes I'm afraid! We give the client a date it will be prepared and posted by, which is dependent on how busy the studio is. However if there is going to be a wait due to lots of work we do give incentives to wait, such as increased levels, or throwing in a freebie. Sometimes this mean our studio are working into the early hours (which we want to do, like I said we are all about customer satisfaction!)
If you are still intrigued, I suggest you email me at the email I gave, or go check out our facebook where you can see step by step many of the armies we are doing. (However this is not always immediately updated publicly, although clients see many wip shots through a private folder.
Thanks for your insight and question! I think you hit the nail on the head when you said every painting company is different and you have to choose the right one for you. Keep up the good work, and content for the community!
sorry but here is the description of both an employee and a contractor .there's a bit more to being a contractor then just having your own brushes .sorry but did people actually read the info i posted ?
What’s the Difference?
An Independent Contractor:
Operates under a business name
Has his/her own employees
Maintains a separate business checking account
Advertises his/her business' services
Invoices for work completed
Has more than one client
Has own tools and sets own hours
Keeps business records
An Employee:
Performs duties dictated or controlled by others
Is given training for work to be done
Works for only one employer
Many small businesses rely on independent contractors for their staffing needs. There are many benefits to using contractors over hiring employees:
Savings in labor costs
Reduced liability
Flexibility in hiring and firing
Operates under a business name
Has his/her own employees
Maintains a separate business checking account
Advertises his/her business' services
Invoices for work completed
Has more than one client
Has own tools and sets own hours
Keeps business records
An Employee:
Performs duties dictated or controlled by others
Is given training for work to be done
Works for only one employer
From the definitions you provided above, I am more convinced than ever that these people were employees rather than contractors. Even the IRS agreed.
Did they have more than one client? No. They were required to sign a non-competition agreement that even extended beyond their employment at BTP.
Do they advertise their work? No. Can anybody show me an advertisement for independent work by a single painter currently working at BTP?
It`s not just a matter of pulling a fast one on the taxman ,its also about braking labor laws in a way that favors the employer.iv lived all my life in a small crappy town in n,ireland trust me i know all about the dodgy stuff employers will pull on their workers.its always been pretty much a given here that when you work on a building site of any kind you do the double ie you work and claim benefits.that way they can pay you less for a weeks hard graft .if you don't do this then good luck finding job like that round here .
I just don't like seeing honest workers getting shafted .also not keen on the way workers are referred to as little more than burger flips at some fast food joint .honest decent folk will engage in dishonest acts if it means putting food on the table and paying the rent esp when their employer is putting pressure on them to do so .i grew up in a town whos claim to fame (aside from being one of the most bomed towns in western europe since ww2) was it had one of the highest unemployment rates in the industrial world .now your prob thinking this dudes finally gone mad .but it was that bad here during the 1970`s that 60mins actually did a show on the town .and in that show they mention the very fact i just stated .the 60min bit on the town is called "life and death in an irish town" its on youtube .now i know for a fact a fair few people were working back then but they were being worked hard for very little pay and no workers rights .i dont want to see that in my hobby .
Hey sorry again guys, but I've received some information from the owner of the company, Nuke He personally painted the tanks you see at the beginning of the thread, and we really pride ourselves on the fact that our owner is actively involved in the painting of each project. Much of the stuff coming out of the studio he was worked on personally, and alongside the members of staff whom he personally trains: not just on the technical side, but also on theory such as style, color theory, aesthetic tastes, interpretation, emotive poses, etc. This helps keep a tight quality control.
Those tanks at the beginning took between 4 and five hours
One of the questions we receive alot is about communication, we are extremely flexible in this regard. I mentioned email and facebook, but we can even get in contact with customers through phone apps such as line and whats app? Or even here on DakkaDakka!
I can't comment much on the old tax situation, that was a different batch of EMPLOYEES. Shawn has admitted to me that he did get in trouble with the IRS, and did pay large fines over it.
That was one of two times that Shawn imploded BTP and had to start over (Shawn's own words). That is what Shawn refers to as 9 years of successful business!
This issue of being too short of cash to order customers prepaid models and supplies is NOT a new one, it's been fairly common over the last couple years, that I was witness to. It's an issue Shawn was very well aware of, and to act like it's a new one that was the fault of employees is utter BS. I also know that customers are commonly lied to as to why their projects are late as a result.
I do question if BTP can handle the Kickstarter obligations on time and with good quality for the following reasons:
1. They DO have a cash flow problem, you can tell from Shawn's extra begging lately. Watch the long Kickstarter video and tell me that's not the body language of a desperate man.
2. They have lost most of the really talented painters and assemblers in the last few months. Compare some older vids with new ones.
3. They are actually paying hourly now which means time spent on minis is kept to a bare minimum, and the artists are not happy in those conditions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nukearts wrote: Hey sorry again guys, but I've received some information from the owner of the company, Nuke He personally painted the tanks you see at the beginning of the thread, and we really pride ourselves on the fact that our owner is actively involved in the painting of each project. Much of the stuff coming out of the studio he was worked on personally, and alongside the members of staff whom he personally trains: not just on the technical side, but also on theory such as style, color theory, aesthetic tastes, interpretation, emotive poses, etc. This helps keep a tight quality control.
Those tanks at the beginning took between 4 and five hours
One of the questions we receive alot is about communication, we are extremely flexible in this regard. I mentioned email and facebook, but we can even get in contact with customers through phone apps such as line and whats app? Or even here on DakkaDakka!
I can tell you, the BTP tanks were done in less than an hour, and probably paid the artist about $10
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow, cant believe they got the TGN comments shut down!
Shawn, for a guy that professes love of the Constitution, you sure dont think much of free speech!
Wow, cant believe they got the TGN comments shut down!
Shawn, for a guy that professes love of the Constitution, you sure dont think much of free speech!
It wasn't Shawn/BTP. I was the one to suggest to Jason to close the thread, as it became impossible to that other news posts were being commented on.
Thank you for that info. I think you did a diservice to the gaming community. When companies are doing questionable things, people should be free to discuss it.
I could understand if it was nothing but baseless accusations, but considering Shawn himself has pretty much verified most as truth, that is clearly not the case here.
My previous statement regarding free speech still applies to Shawns removal of comments elsewhere. That is his right, but very opposite of what he professes to believe.
Wow, cant believe they got the TGN comments shut down!
Shawn, for a guy that professes love of the Constitution, you sure dont think much of free speech!
It wasn't Shawn/BTP. I was the one to suggest to Jason to close the thread, as it became impossible to that other news posts were being commented on.
Thank you for that info. I think you did a diservice to the gaming community. When companies are doing questionable things, people should be free to discuss it.
I could understand if it was nothing but baseless accusations, but considering Shawn himself has pretty much verified most as truth, that is clearly not the case here.
My previous statement regarding free speech still applies to Shawns removal of comments elsewhere. That is his right, but very opposite of what he professes to believe.
TTGN does still have a forum, you could open a thread there, and then the continuous posting won't block people from being able to see other news.
Alfndrate wrote: Are you the Ren from BTP, or is this a happy coincidence that your names are similar?
No I'm not Ren, Renfro has nothing to do with my name.
I didn't get a chance to edit before you responded, I picked up reading the thread where I last read a post... I hadn't seen that you worked there...
I did work for BTP, and quit on good terms. I loved the job for a while, then I started seeing how Shawn really was and the darker and unstable inner workings of BTP.
You do not question Shawn on how things are done. If you do one or all of three things happen:
1. Shawn will give you a condisending reply and then completely ignore the issue and treat you like an outsider. Most common
2. Insult your skills as an artist in front of the whole studio while spouting how wonderful a job it is and if you don't like it to get out.
3. If you speak out too often and Shawn can't insult you into quiting, you will likely be fired.
A Shawn wonders why people would post on the web instead of coming to him, what a laugh.
Yeah, I hate to say it... I used to watch BTP's videos looking for some paint scheme inspiration, but Shawn bugged the crap out of me, and I could very easily see how working for him might be like that.
Wow, cant believe they got the TGN comments shut down!
Shawn, for a guy that professes love of the Constitution, you sure dont think much of free speech!
It wasn't Shawn/BTP. I was the one to suggest to Jason to close the thread, as it became impossible to that other news posts were being commented on.
Thank you for that info. I think you did a diservice to the gaming community. When companies are doing questionable things, people should be free to discuss it.
I could understand if it was nothing but baseless accusations, but considering Shawn himself has pretty much verified most as truth, that is clearly not the case here.
My previous statement regarding free speech still applies to Shawns removal of comments elsewhere. That is his right, but very opposite of what he professes to believe.
TTGN does still have a forum, you could open a thread there, and then the continuous posting won't block people from being able to see other news.
Oh right, a graveyard at midnight gets more traffic.
Personally I think we need to put pressure on the major news outlets of 40k, such as 40k Radio, the 11th Company, Bols, Faiet 212 etc. Some of these news sources have publicized BTP in the past.
I know that 40k Radio does Duelcon, and BTP was at Duelcon this year. If they are publicizing BTP, I think they are obligated to notify the listening public that there are ethical questions surrounding BTP - and that there are other choices for commission work.
I think everyones making a larger deal over the situation with the IRS. I don't think many here realize how common tax fraud is. Has anyone you know hired illegals to work for them? This is tax fraud. Have you ever been paid under the table? This is tax fraud. Have you sold something on dakka and not reported it to the IRS? This is tax fraud.
ianj253 wrote: I think everyones making a larger deal over the situation with the IRS. I don't think many here realize how common tax fraud is. Has anyone you know hired illegals to work for them? This is tax fraud. Have you ever been paid under the table? This is tax fraud. Have you sold something on dakka and not reported it to the IRS? This is tax fraud.
Oh, so lots of people do it, so it's ok. WOW
I agree that its an old issue and souldnt be such a distraction to the current issues. However it does give an indication to Shawns character.
ianj253 wrote: I think everyones making a larger deal over the situation with the IRS. I don't think many here realize how common tax fraud is. Has anyone you know hired illegals to work for them? This is tax fraud. Have you ever been paid under the table? This is tax fraud. Have you sold something on dakka and not reported it to the IRS? This is tax fraud.
Excuse me but listing other ileggal acts does not make this one any more leggal .this is an employer going out of his way to exploit his work force .not only is this a tax matter its also braking labor laws .maybe you should read this since it`s US law and may help you understand what this actually means .or maybe you`s prefer we all sat back and were like you with your who cares if he brakes the laws and treats his workers badly sure thats like selling a tactical squad and not declaering it .
Hire a Contractor or an Employee?
Independent contractors and employees are not the same, and it's important to understand the difference. Knowing this distinction will help you determine what your first hiring move will be and affect how you withhold a variety of taxes and avoid costly legal consequences.
What’s the Difference?
An Independent Contractor:
Operates under a business name
Has his/her own employees
Maintains a separate business checking account
Advertises his/her business' services
Invoices for work completed
Has more than one client
Has own tools and sets own hours
Keeps business records
An Employee:
Performs duties dictated or controlled by others
Is given training for work to be done
Works for only one employer
Many small businesses rely on independent contractors for their staffing needs. There are many benefits to using contractors over hiring employees:
Savings in labor costs
Reduced liability
Flexibility in hiring and firing
Why Does It Matter?
Misclassification of an individual as an independent contractor may have a number of costly legal consequences.
If your independent contractor is discovered to meet the legal definition of an employee, you may be required to:
Reimburse them for wages you should've paid them under the Fair Labor Standards Act, including overtime and minimum wage
Pay back taxes and penalties for federal and state income taxes, Social Security, Medicare and unemployment
Pay any misclassified injured employees workers' compensation benefits
Provide employee benefits, including health insurance, retirement, etc.
Tax Requirements
Visit the IRS Independent Contractor or Employee guide to learn about the tax implications of either scenario, download and fill out a form to have the IRS officially determine your workers’ status, and find other related resources.
Employment Information
There is no single test for determining if an individual is an independent contractor or an employee under the Fair Labor Standards Act. However, the following guidelines should be taken into account:
The extent to which the services rendered are an integral part of the principal's business
The permanency of the relationship
The amount of the alleged contractor's investment in facilities and equipment
The nature and degree of control by the principal
The alleged contractor's opportunities for profit and loss
The amount of initiative, judgment, or foresight in open market competition with others that is required for the success of the claimed independent contractor
The degree of independent business organization and operation
Whether a person is an independent contractor or an employee generally depends on the amount of control exercised by the employer over the work being done. Read Equal Employment Opportunity Laws - Who's Covered? for more information on how to determine whether a person is an independent contractor or an employee, and which are covered under federal laws.
ianj253 wrote: I think everyones making a larger deal over the situation with the IRS. I don't think many here realize how common tax fraud is. Has anyone you know hired illegals to work for them? This is tax fraud. Have you ever been paid under the table? This is tax fraud. Have you sold something on dakka and not reported it to the IRS? This is tax fraud.
Oh, so lots of people do it, so it's ok. WOW
I agree that its an old issue and souldnt be such a distraction to the current issues. However it does give an indication to Shawns character.
I never said that. I just think it's a bigger issue than people are making it. You would be hard pressed to find a company out there that hasn't committed some sort of tax fraud. What they did was wrong, but it's no reason to crucify them.
its not just one issue there are a few which have cme up ,none of which paint BTP in a very good light be it worker explotation .brow beating people constantly in video`s sometimes for 20min plus ,not being totally honest with clients ,getting people outside BTP to order stock with the encentive of store credit ,the fact things clarely arent as honky dory as mr gately would have us believe and then the man wants us the wargamers to bail him out over some daft project on kickstarter to the tune of $40.000 .we arent just picking on BTP if any of this had of come out during other kickstarters dont you think people would be angry or at the very least conserned about the state of the hobby as a whole .
Yea, I got pissed off on the TGN forum and told the lurker who took umbridge at my new name for Shawn Gately what he could do to himself. Probably me that got it shut down. Sorry about that. Really.
But I gotta jump back in here. I mean, come on, guys. Watch some the crap on his 'Gatelymusings' channel. Shawn hates the government. Cheating the IRS is just part of Gatelynomics, as he calls it.
He sees his employees as otherwise 'unemployables' who are lucky to have a job. Even has a video on Gatelymusings about it. So of course he treats them with disdain. He brags all of the time about how he is bettering the community and how much he is helping people.
And the way he treated me? I am not saying 'poor me.' My fault. As I mentioned on TGN, I should have listened to my wife. But can you imagine ignoring a person who drove over 1,000 miles to see you? For a week? Dude's something else.
BTP charges out the ass for their lower level quality and it looks horrible. Their level 5 and over is nice, but who's higher quality, expensive stuff isn't, really?
Examples : Nukearts( dealt with him), redmodelling( dealt with him as well), golem painting studio, worthy painting, battleworthy arts, battle brush studios, next level studio, GMM studios, winterdyne commissions, Ifalna's painting studio and so many others I'm forgetting.
Don't forget BlackDog Painting Studio!
_Tim?
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Derr wrote: None of those models are even based.. Even if it's only sand and green flock, every BTP model at least gets that love.
I'm not sure I'd pay $10 for any of those models except the first one.
basing isn't mandatory for a commission, some people prefer to do their own as it's such a tricky thing to describe. even unbased, those models are worth far more than $10
Gotta agree with WAAAAAGH here. As the customer did not request a base, $10 is a steal. Heck, I charge $16 for that level of painting and I get some business. Why? Because (le gasp!) creating and executing a paintjob worth seeing is neither easy nor quick, and many, actually, most of us in the commission biz are doing this part-time, as we are also holding up another job or studying for a good portion of our days.
The other problem is that a ton of gamers expect commissions to be cheap. As explained above, this is not gonna happen. I had someone once ask me to paint 500 Orks...for $250 dollars! The person in question kept badgering me with questions and entreaties until I finally had to give him the cold hard facts of life. Good customers are hard to find and worth keeping close.
Say you're a painter at BTP and a client orders 10 Goblin Wolf Riders to fill out his army for the coming WAAAGH! For no frills level 3, the cost is $232.40. Know how much the painter gets? $43.73. Unless it takes him/her longer than 4 hours to complete, in which case he/she gets something else. Fired. See the problem?
Pricing is a fine line for comission painter ,but at the same time its a skilled trade .you wouldnt expect a plumber to do good work round your house and the hand him a few $.people need to think about this and how much their own free time they would be spending on painting is worth .iv seen some extremely talented people both on youtube and on the minatures page who cover just about everything you could think of.way i see it if you arent willing to pay somebody a fair wage to do it then get off your ass and do it yourself .iv painted god only knows how many figs over the past few years ,i got the mantic undead box with 110 figs and had it done to a decent tabletop standard in two weeks .i play a lot of games from historicals fantasy sci-fi in a mix of scales .if all i had to do was paint up one or two armies for say whfb and 40kid be laughing lol
Like any trade you also get the od cowboy comission painter out there .
It's actually less than that. It was 32% at one time, then dropped to 30% and now I understand that it's closer to 26% based on the time allowed at $11 per hour.
Keep in mind if a customer is given a discount it is reflected in the pay or allowed time.
$11 an hour for the level of painting they're doing seems good to me. If you think it's an unfair wage go start your own commission studio. I'm not saying that in a confrontational manner; I'm being serious. You would get paid more since you're not paying all the over head cost.
This sounds like it could be perfectly true. I just don't see how some are complaining about "low wages". Lower skill=Lower wage. I'm not saying you're not qualified to do a high skilled model, I'm talking about BTP's lvl 3's.
I wouldn't give Blue Table Painting a nickel after reading the comments from ex-employees.
Shawn is shady and very greedy. Not the good mormon boy he pretends to be.
One other comment he spoke about in his YouTube Channel. He was going over the commission services\pricing and
made the statement "if you are into miniature wargaming, you really ought to be able to handle having someone paint
your army". ROFLMAO What an asinine comment.
I would counter: If you own a miniature painting company, "you really ought to be able to handle paying & treating your employees
fairly, and not cheating on your taxes".
ianj253 wrote: This sounds like it could be perfectly true. I just don't see how some are complaining about "low wages". Lower skill=Lower wage. I'm not saying you're not qualified to do a high skilled model, I'm talking about BTP's lvl 3's.
I don't think anyone is really complaing about low wages. The point of discussing the wages was to explain the quality. The pay also covers time required for research as well as priming, basing, clearcoating and any later adjustments. The artists were expected to compleat about 6 average level 3 figs per hour.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would also bet many of the artists are working extra hours off the clock to meet quotas so they dont get fired. I know all of them did when I was there, and were under less pressure than now.
ianj253 wrote: seems BTP should adopt an airbrush method if they are trying to work that quick.
Great idea, in theory. The problem was, if Shawn found out that somebody figured out a faster way to paint something, he would lower the pay accordingly.
I still don't really have a problem with BTP. I think if you dislike the kickstarter idea that's fine. It just seems the biggest problems at BTP are derived from the their size. Larger size->Larger overhead. BTP has to recoup their cost and make a profit. I don't think they're greedy as many have thrown out there. They're just trying to make their business work.
Here's an excerpt from the BYU student newspaper "The Universe" dated November 1, 2004, linked from the BTP website:
"Shawn is looking for someone to help fund some of his house projects. House projects are different from client orders because they require funding upfront, then sold after the project is finished."
TrojanArt Painting wrote: Say you're a painter at BTP and a client orders 10 Goblin Wolf Riders to fill out his army for the coming WAAAGH! For no frills level 3, the cost is $232.40. Know how much the painter gets? $43.73. Unless it takes him/her longer than 4 hours to complete, in which case he/she gets something else. Fired. See the problem?
Funny how things around the studio don't seem to have changed, at least in this regard. When I worked there, painters started at 30% pay, and through a raise system could eventually earn as high as 45%.
Actually, no, that's not right. 45% was what we were told, but the actual pay cap was 44%. BTPs most productive painter at the time left as a result of finding out he'd been... hoodwinked? lied to? misinformed? and that in fact he could never attain that last 1%. I confronted Shawn Gately in an attempt to ameliorate the situation (and keep said painter from quitting) and Shawn gleefully agreed that the raise system was intentionally designed to prohibit a painter from ever maxing out to 45%.
It is possible for a boss to be successful and generous and loyal at the same time.
Here is an excerpt from an article about Wm. Hocker Toy Soldiers:
Although he did all his work alone between 1983 and 85, Bill knew he had to hire help to keep pace with his orders. Bill notes, "the first painter I hired in 1985 is still with me" . . . workers decide on their own schedules and are paid hourly wages, but labor costs still account for 60% of the price of Bill's final products.
To preserve his sanity and keep the figures affordable . . . Bill never keeps track of his own sculpting and setup time in calculating profitability.
And might I add, Bill does not whine about '12 hour shifts on Saturday' and 'living at the studio.'
Something has been bothering me about BTP's process for some time, and I hope that one of you former employees can shine some light on this apparent paradox.
BTP has a policy of keeping he extra bits and sprues after they assemble your model. With more modern GW kits, this can sometimes be up to 25% of the components on the sprues. They claim that this goes into a communal pot to be used on conversions for other clients. In the end, everybody benefits.
The troubling thing is, they also ask you to set aside a certain amount of money as a "conversion budget" from which they can work from. In fact, they recommend $50-$150. According to their site, "This covers the cost of the parts used and conversion work itself." It doesn't seem that the parts are coming from this communal part supply.
Where do the leftover bits go? As with all things Shawn and BTP, there seems to be some amount of dishonesty going on here.
TrojanArt Painting wrote: Yea, I got pissed off on the TGN forum and told the lurker who took umbridge at my new name for Shawn Gately what he could do to himself. Probably me that got it shut down. Sorry about that. Really.
But I gotta jump back in here. I mean, come on, guys. Watch some the crap on his 'Gatelymusings' channel. Shawn hates the government. Cheating the IRS is just part of Gatelynomics, as he calls it.
He sees his employees as otherwise 'unemployables' who are lucky to have a job. Even has a video on Gatelymusings about it. So of course he treats them with disdain. He brags all of the time about how he is bettering the community and how much he is helping people.
And the way he treated me? I am not saying 'poor me.' My fault. As I mentioned on TGN, I should have listened to my wife. But can you imagine ignoring a person who drove over 1,000 miles to see you? For a week? Dude's something else.
Ugh.... I remember watching one of thows videos were he tried explaining that it's some crazy world bank conspiracy theory that is causing the cost of metals to go up, thus the metals used in minatures. (That and greedy companies like GW charging more for their metals unjustifiably/getting in on it.)
I commented on the video pointing out it's actually simply Supply and demand, because metals such as tin are in high demand for use in disposable/Non-Recyclable consumer electronics. These metals get used, and when done with alot of times they end up in landfills/not recycled. In his defence he did concede that he apparently did not know as much as he thought he did.
Personally after that my impression was that he was someone who tends to assume things/take things for granted too easily. From what you are saying, I can only assume he took what I had to say well because he had time to think over it logicically and I made a point to be clear I wasn't arguing with him, only giving him facts that he should consider. (Even gave links to some journals and stuff to read on the subject.)
Renfro wrote: Hey Jay, you must be the J in the infamous J&H that Shawn loves so much. You must have some interesting BTP stories.
Renfro, our reputation precedes us, I see! Yes, that's us. I can only imagine what he's said over the years about me and my wife...
@bowloflostcells: Ah, you are beginning to peer behind the curtain, lol.What you described was standard while I worked there (you would NOT believe the size and scope of BTPs 'bitz room') and yet customers were charged conversion fees for time,effort and bitz used. The leftover bitz, or at time nearly entire sprues, went into BTPs ever-growing collection. I can only assume they continue to do so.
See this is what i dont understand why doesnt BTP just take all the trade stock they are buying in combine it with the bits section.it would make sense just split it into old and new parts .there is no reason BTP right now if they wanted to couldnt throw together smaller starter armies say even something like youd get in the old black reach set or the new dark vengance starter box .make sure the lists are interesting and some way balanced pts wise and people will buy them .it would be like buying one force from those sets but you get to pick what army and its comes painted .if you dont have the money to make 100`s of big armies then use what you have to make lots of small gateway armies and work up .
A friend of mine has a PC shop here in town .like all those places he ended up with lots and lots of parts left over from people geting upgrades and the like .did he just let them lay there gathering dust ? no he made cheap and cheerful pc`s that meant people could get online without forking out lots of cash.ok some stuff is going to just be knackered or pretty much worthless theres not much you can do about that .
The frequently used bits are kept for use on other projects. Many of the bits are thrown out rather than paying somebody to clip them out and organize them.
Conversion money goes towards artist time unless something has to be ordered.
and this is the guy who wants people to just send him 60 gaunts for his nid army ,place foreworld orders for store credit and hits his fans for $40.000 to do a way more impractical version of what i just suggested .i dont know the numbers or % of full blown armies verus smaller starter tupe projects which then get built on over time .but to me the later would seem the more common of the two .just down to people having less money and the welth of information on sites like this and videos on youtube, which show people that yes pretty much anybody can paint to a table top standard given a bit of practice.that imformation just wasnt as readly avilable even 4-5 yrs ago .personally i think more wargamers than ever are painting their own stuff but that could just be down to the fact wargaming is bigger now than ever.
if the market was there BTP would already have built something like this up long ago .ok maybe not crazy levels like having 100`s of armies just knocking about the place.i see a lot of comission guys/gals doing hero type figs conversions tanks stuff like that and that leads me to think most people are willing to army painter their stuff esp if its marines or something you can primer x colour pick out a few details then dunk .wargamers also set time limits pblically as a way of making them get the paints out for and hr or two .i think BTP decided ya know what would be great and really bring in the money ? if we sold 100`s of big armies all the time .BTP has its fans who repeatedly buy stuff from them and thats fine if somebody pays x$ and is happy with what they recived thats great .take their subscriber count on youtube its 23.242 right now but they only get round 3000 views and views cost nothing apart from your getting brainwashed into buying an army.out of that 3-4000 how many have ordered from BTP we`l say 50% how many reapeatedly order from BTP say half that again .and out of that how many repeatedly order full blown armies reapeatedly ? its still a hefty figure but it isnt going to be able to support knocking out 100`s of armies ,getting people out there kickstarter deals and geting existing and pcoming projects .
bowloflostcells wrote: Something has been bothering me about BTP's process for some time, and I hope that one of you former employees can shine some light on this apparent paradox.
BTP has a policy of keeping he extra bits and sprues after they assemble your model. With more modern GW kits, this can sometimes be up to 25% of the components on the sprues. They claim that this goes into a communal pot to be used on conversions for other clients. In the end, everybody benefits.
The troubling thing is, they also ask you to set aside a certain amount of money as a "conversion budget" from which they can work from. In fact, they recommend $50-$150. According to their site, "This covers the cost of the parts used and conversion work itself." It doesn't seem that the parts are coming from this communal part supply.
Where do the leftover bits go? As with all things Shawn and BTP, there seems to be some amount of dishonesty going on here.
Renfro wrote: Many of the bits are thrown out rather than paying somebody to clip them out and organize them.
You're kidding me right? Then why the feth don't they just send the bits to the client?
Exactly. However, it can be inferred that since BTP is unwilling to pay someone to manage bits, then that includes not having someone to keep track of which kits belong to which customers.
From what I've read, I would assume that everything going into the shop (save prebuilt or converted items) is added to their inventory and use that as one big resource pool for all projects.
Throw them in a baggy with the project code on it and put that in the plastic bins along with the assembled models .If your just giving the people the bits back then there is no need to sort them .merely tag them and keep them with the figs simple .
Renfro wrote: Many of the bits are thrown out rather than paying somebody to clip them out and organize them.
You're kidding me right? Then why the feth don't they just send the bits to the client?
Exactly. However, it can be inferred that since BTP is unwilling to pay someone to manage bits, then that includes not having someone to keep track of which kits belong to which customers.
From what I've read, I would assume that everything going into the shop (save prebuilt or converted items) is added to their inventory and use that as one big resource pool for all projects.
If its going into a resource pool, then why are customers paying $150 for their conversion budget and giving up their extra bits if BTP has the bits already (which they got for free.) Something smells fishy here.
On a side note, I heard that for the top support level on their kickstarter, you also get life advice from Shawn. Wow I would love to hear some of that advice.
catachan1brainleaf wrote: Throw them in a baggy with the project code on it and put that in the plastic bins along with the assembled models .If your just giving the people the bits back then there is no need to sort them .merely tag them and keep them with the figs simple .
In the scenario I presented, that wouldn't even happen. The following is an example of how I think the system would work what with their bits piles and such.
Imagined Scenario:
A customer buys or otherwise sends in complete kits which are never associated with that customer's order.
New packages in today? Alright, what do we have here? Tactical Marines, Command Squad, Trygons, etc.
Check invoices, toss them in corresponding piles.
Then they go through a list of orders, much the same way a short order cook would, and just take what's needed from their stock to fulfill that order.
In a situation like the one mentioned above, nothing would get tagged as being sent in by 'Jeremy from Seattle' and so any extra bits aren't identified as belonging to that particular customer and get added to growing reserves of leftovers. Or outright trashed as Renfro wrote - an unpleasant notion at the very least. That's the only way I can see - other than greed - for not returning extra bits.
catachan1brainleaf wrote: Throw them in a baggy with the project code on it and put that in the plastic bins along with the assembled models .If your just giving the people the bits back then there is no need to sort them .merely tag them and keep them with the figs simple .
In the scenario I presented, that wouldn't even happen. The following is an example of how I think the system would work what with their bits piles and such.
Imagined Scenario:
A customer buys or otherwise sends in complete kits which are never associated with that customer's order.
New packages in today? Alright, what do we have here? Tactical Marines, Command Squad, Trygons, etc.
Check invoices, toss them in corresponding piles.
Then they go through a list of orders, much the same way a short order cook would, and just take what's needed from their stock to fulfill that order.
In a situation like the one mentioned above, nothing would get tagged as being sent in by 'Jeremy from Seattle' and so any extra bits aren't identified as belonging to that particular customer and get added to growing reserves of leftovers. Or outright trashed as Renfro wrote - an unpleasant notion at the very least. That's the only way I can see - other than greed - for not returning extra bits.
I think they just don't care to be bothered keeping track of left over bits more then anything. One less hassle if you will.
The thought process is probably more or less that if you are coming to them to have a army assembled and painted, you must not care much for modleing/painting in the 1st place. Their for their is no point sending the bits foreword, since a customer with such a mind set "does not need the bits". If they want to add a new unit/options to their army/squad they obviously will just come back to studio instead of doing it them selves.
i agree the people who order armies esp from BTP aren't that into the hobby side of things clearly . as for keeping track of the bits iv already explained how easy that is .say i need to build x army ,i get all the boxes i need for that army including any other boxes used just for conversions .as each box is built you throw the left overs in a bag with the same number on it as the plastic containers .that way you know bag 359-5 goes with box 359-5 you don't need to know their name to do that only the person handling the orders .all work sheets ie what needs done to the army bits and actual built figs can all be kept track of easily its not a big deal .
id say if you gave some of the commission painters on here, youtube and a host of others places, the chance to go thru their trade stock and bits for the same prices BTP are paying they would come up with loads of cool starter armies .which is what BTP should be doing .they may also want to talk to the sites dealing in bits to re-cope some of the cost how much will you give me for 2kg of space marine bits whatever lol
catachan1brainleaf wrote: i agree the people who order armies esp from BTP aren't that into the hobby side of things clearly . as for keeping track of the bits iv already explained how easy that is .say i need to build x army ,i get all the boxes i need for that army including any other boxes used just for conversions .as each box is built you throw the left overs in a bag with the same number on it as the plastic containers .that way you know bag 359-5 goes with box 359-5 you don't need to know their name to do that only the person handling the orders .all work sheets ie what needs done to the army bits and actual built figs can all be kept track of easily its not a big deal .
I agree. It's not hard at all, just keep everything together. My post was simply a situation that could perhaps explain why they don't.
Also, it could be that someone doesn't care for the hobby or doesn't have the time, but those bits are still worth money. It costs BTP nothing to send them back with the finished project.
Now I'm not a spokesmen for the company. So dont take my word as law.
While working in the assembly department of BTP, when a customer requests all the bits returned, they get returned, I clip them and bag them, keeping them with the project. But that is a rare thing to see.
So if you go with BTP, and want to keep all your bits, then make sure that is part of the form you fill out for final instructions on the project.
Other wise we build the models based off the army list you (hopefully) sent in. All spare parts go to the bits wall. Where they get used on other projects. On a project I finished today, the client wanted 4 special guns per 10 man unit. That doesn't come in the box set in those numbers. So I had to spend time searching the various bins for the parts. The client was not charged extra for these parts. Even though they go for $7 a piece on battlewagon bits. Especially rare or limited parts, yes we charge for, but if they are on the bits wall, its fair game for the assemblers to use. This is done with out adding cost to the clients project.
Kit incomplete? Bits wall. Client didn't send in all the correct parts? Bits wall. Stuff we can use in a conversion? Bits wall. Not included in the box? Bits wall.
catachan1brainleaf wrote: i agree the people who order armies esp from BTP aren't that into the hobby side of things clearly . as for keeping track of the bits iv already explained how easy that is .say i need to build x army ,i get all the boxes i need for that army including any other boxes used just for conversions .as each box is built you throw the left overs in a bag with the same number on it as the plastic containers .that way you know bag 359-5 goes with box 359-5 you don't need to know their name to do that only the person handling the orders .all work sheets ie what needs done to the army bits and actual built figs can all be kept track of easily its not a big deal .
I agree. It's not hard at all, just keep everything together. My post was simply a situation that could perhaps explain why they don't.
Also, it could be that someone doesn't care for the hobby or doesn't have the time, but those bits are still worth money. It costs BTP nothing to send them back with the finished project.
Damn and there's me trying to use common sense for once lol gately where`s this slick well oiled machine you talk of .
Igenstilch wrote: Now I'm not a spokesmen for the company. So dont take my word as law.
While working in the assembly department of BTP, when a customer requests all the bits returned, they get returned, I clip them and bag them, keeping them with the project. But that is a rare thing to see.
So if you go with BTP, and want to keep all your bits, then make sure that is part of the form you fill out for final instructions on the project.
Other wise we build the models based off the army list you (hopefully) sent in. All spare parts go to the bits wall. Where they get used on other projects. On a project I finished today, the client wanted 4 special guns per 10 man unit. That doesn't come in the box set in those numbers. So I had to spend time searching the various bins for the parts. The client was not charged extra for these parts. Even though they go for $7 a piece on battlewagon bits. Especially rare or limited parts, yes we charge for, but if they are on the bits wall, its fair game for the assemblers to use. This is done with out adding cost to the clients project.
Kit incomplete? Bits wall. Client didn't send in all the correct parts? Bits wall. Stuff we can use in a conversion? Bits wall. Not included in the box? Bits wall.
On BTP's website, they ask for a $50-$150 pool to be included to handle conversion costs. I've never used their service, but from what I've seen, asking for extra money to buy things from BTP that BTP didn't originally pay for seems to fit their business model. Their entire Kickstarter is asking people to buy them $40,000 worth of armies, so that they can then paint those armies and resell them.
Now.. I don't see what they're offering that's any different than other painting services. You pay them $ and you get painted models. Except their KS model seems to be, you give them $, then you give them more $ for painted models. So, essentially they're getting $40,000 of free revenue to do the same services they already provide. It certainly doesn't fit into the spirit of what Kickstarter is supposed to be.
Igenstilch wrote: Now I'm not a spokesmen for the company. So dont take my word as law.
While working in the assembly department of BTP, when a customer requests all the bits returned, they get returned, I clip them and bag them, keeping them with the project. But that is a rare thing to see.
So if you go with BTP, and want to keep all your bits, then make sure that is part of the form you fill out for final instructions on the project.
Other wise we build the models based off the army list you (hopefully) sent in. All spare parts go to the bits wall. Where they get used on other projects. On a project I finished today, the client wanted 4 special guns per 10 man unit. That doesn't come in the box set in those numbers. So I had to spend time searching the various bins for the parts. The client was not charged extra for these parts. Even though they go for $7 a piece on battlewagon bits. Especially rare or limited parts, yes we charge for, but if they are on the bits wall, its fair game for the assemblers to use. This is done with out adding cost to the clients project.
Kit incomplete? Bits wall. Client didn't send in all the correct parts? Bits wall. Stuff we can use in a conversion? Bits wall. Not included in the box? Bits wall.
On BTP's website, they ask for a $50-$150 pool to be included to handle conversion costs. I've never used their service, but from what I've seen, asking for extra money to buy things from BTP that BTP didn't originally pay for seems to fit their business model. Their entire Kickstarter is asking people to buy them $40,000 worth of armies, so that they can then paint those armies and resell them.
Now.. I don't see what they're offering that's any different than other painting services. You pay them $ and you get painted models. Except their KS model seems to be, you give them $, then you give them more $ for painted models. So, essentially they're getting $40,000 of free revenue to do the same services they already provide. It certainly doesn't fit into the spirit of what Kickstarter is supposed to be.
Thanks for the info, Igenstilch. Can I call you Igen?
But is that only for projects that have Conversion Budgets? To be fair, that Conversion Budget is optional from my understanding and it says that "minor parts" aren't charged for.
Igenstilch wrote: Now I'm not a spokesmen for the company. So dont take my word as law.
While working in the assembly department of BTP, when a customer requests all the bits returned, they get returned, I clip them and bag them, keeping them with the project. But that is a rare thing to see.
So if you go with BTP, and want to keep all your bits, then make sure that is part of the form you fill out for final instructions on the project.
Other wise we build the models based off the army list you (hopefully) sent in. All spare parts go to the bits wall. Where they get used on other projects. On a project I finished today, the client wanted 4 special guns per 10 man unit. That doesn't come in the box set in those numbers. So I had to spend time searching the various bins for the parts. The client was not charged extra for these parts. Even though they go for $7 a piece on battlewagon bits. Especially rare or limited parts, yes we charge for, but if they are on the bits wall, its fair game for the assemblers to use. This is done with out adding cost to the clients project.
Kit incomplete? Bits wall. Client didn't send in all the correct parts? Bits wall. Stuff we can use in a conversion? Bits wall. Not included in the box? Bits wall.
On BTP's website, they ask for a $50-$150 pool to be included to handle conversion costs. I've never used their service, but from what I've seen, asking for extra money to buy things from BTP that BTP didn't originally pay for seems to fit their business model. Their entire Kickstarter is asking people to buy them $40,000 worth of armies, so that they can then paint those armies and resell them.
Now.. I don't see what they're offering that's any different than other painting services. You pay them $ and you get painted models. Except their KS model seems to be, you give them $, then you give them more $ for painted models. So, essentially they're getting $40,000 of free revenue to do the same services they already provide. It certainly doesn't fit into the spirit of what Kickstarter is supposed to be.
I'm not a fan of the kickstarter, I don't like the idea of mass producing the same thing. Built to order armies have more personality to them.
As for conversion costs. Its recommended, majority of projects coming across my desk don't have it. Meaning every thing gets assembled as is out of box. Do you want something more then simple basing on your models? Some different poses? Every guards men to have goggles? Banners? Bayonets? It takes time to find parts not included, and make things from scratch. Its recommended, but not required. That budget also goes into repairs and clean up on client sent in models. Just the other day a client sent in a box of miniatures he assembled, with sculpey and hot glue... That takes a lot of time to clean up decently. If we don't have a conversion budget, then we just have to paint over it, after loosing detail to it.
From the web site
"We recommend setting a budget for conversion work. This will allow us to get creative without asking for approval each time. Typically, clients will set a $50-$150 budget for conversions for a whole army. The price you set is a maximum, we might not use all that. This covers the cost of the parts used and conversion work itself. We do not always charge for minor parts, like plastic shields, only unusual and/or metal parts."
Thanks for the info, Igenstilch. Can I call you Igen?
But is that only for projects that have Conversion Budgets? To be fair, that Conversion Budget is optional from my understanding and it says that "minor parts" aren't charged for.
Igen works for me. =) I go by that on BoLS.
Minor parts are not charged for. Conversion budget gives us time to spice up the army, give it some personality, preferably with a theme or idea at the clients request. A Chaos Marine army that had a good sized conversion budget allowed the assembler to have time to really customize the army. The daemon prince is especially nice (completely scratch built). It should get posted in the next few days on out gallery. http://www.bluetablepainting.com/view_gallery.php?galleryID=5307 EDIT: Theres the army, http://www.bluetablepainting.com/view_gallery.php?galleryID=6132
The idea behind the kickstarter, is that we can offer painted armies of the same quality even cheaper. Custom level 3 armies will stay the same cost. While armies that we have been able to stream line the production of, will drop in cost, and will be readily available for purchase with out the production wait time.
Why dont you just build them from trade stock and bits ? unless you are already doing that to for fill orders .plus a lot of the in house armies haven't exactly lept off the shelf .what makes you think building 100`s of them that will more than likely look even more rushed are going to sell .if gately wants $40.00 he should go to the bank like any normal person would not exploit BTP`s dwindling fan base with this kickstarter.
Why is there very little decent photography on BTP? The miniature gallery photo's are too small and often out of focus... I am yet to find a photo of a BTP miniature that makes me go wow because most detail is lost in the way the picture is taken and presented. I think people would have a better feeling for the quality of the painting if the photo's weren't so badly done and the gallery setup is self makes them hard to navigate. You would be better off whacking each project on flickr at this rate.
Guess I will see for my self soon enough when my mates project arrives, if it ever arrives at this rate.
I'm pretty sure between the painters and assemblers you could come up with some cool lower pts themed armies .if BTP is buying the stuff in for 20-30% of RRP and you have a mountain of bits it just makes sense to me that BTP would use that to get more studio themed armies out .ok some of the stuff that comes in will be to naff to use in an army so make objectives and bits of terrain out of it .buy an eldar army then when not get a few eldar themed objectives and a bit of terrain made uo at the same time from scrap bits .ignoring all the other stuff that's been bandied about i really cant see the point or need for a kickstarter apart from BTP wants $40.000 interest free from its fans .if the company is in the black doing well has a great turn over and we ignore all that's been said here and over at TGN i just dont get why BTP needs $40.000.i think its more about generating trade with the pledges and getting interest free cash .
Why is there very little decent photography on BTP? The miniature gallery photo's are too small and often out of focus... I am yet to find a photo of a BTP miniature that makes me go wow because most detail is lost in the way the picture is taken and presented. I think people would have a better feeling for the quality of the painting if the photo's weren't so badly done and the gallery setup is self makes them hard to navigate. You would be better off whacking each project on flickr at this rate.
Guess I will see for my self soon enough when my mates project arrives, if it ever arrives at this rate.
I made a similar comment to the upper staff shortly after starting there, I agree the pictures should be better. I know we are looking into budgeting for a better website. Hopefully get a better set up for taking pictures.
Our youtube videos that focus on projects do a decent job of showing quality
catachan1brainleaf wrote: I'm pretty sure between the painters and assemblers you could come up with some cool lower pts themed armies .if BTP is buying the stuff in for 20-30% of RRP and you have a mountain of bits it just makes sense to me that BTP would use that to get more studio themed armies out .ok some of the stuff that comes in will be to naff to use in an army so make objectives and bits of terrain out of it .buy an eldar army then when not get a few eldar themed objectives and a bit of terrain made uo at the same time from scrap bits .ignoring all the other stuff that's been bandied about i really cant see the point or need for a kickstarter apart from BTP wants $40.000 interest free from its fans .if the company is in the black doing well has a great turn over and we ignore all that's been said here and over at TGN i just dont get why BTP needs $40.000.i think its more about generating trade with the pledges and getting interest free cash .
~shrug~ I assume (perhaps inaccurately) that a significant portion of that money will go to fulfilling all the rewards.
Several companies have used kickstarter to fund their production lines. If you disagree with the idea, dont pledge any funds.
Also, the staff are working on some themed armies. Rat Ogre Kingdoms army is in the works. Dont know how big these actual projects will get though. The Eldar objective markers is a good idea, its just not requested that often. People have in the past requested spare bits be made in markers or flags.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Guys I work in assembly, I'm not involved in the business portion of BTP. So there are a lot of questions I can only guess an answer to. >_<
"~shrug~ I assume (perhaps inaccurately) that a significant portion of that money will go to fulfilling all the rewards. " so its mostly about generating trade via the pledges ?
meant sell the objectives with the army for an extra few $,i think a lot people would go for army themed objectives plus they just look nicer on the table.like i say things like that give the crappy end of the trade stock a new lease on life instead of being chucked in the bin . tell me the ogre army was made from stock and bits ? if not you need to have a look at whats knocking about in there and come up with ideas for how it can be used .i know plenty of gamers who wish they had a load of old crap tanks and stuff knocking about to make terrain out of .
I believe its being made from stock bits. Its a side project at the moment, so its not moving along quickly. But we ordered several Island of Blood warhammer fantasy box sets when they first came out, so those skaven are being dug through. We posted about the army idea about a month back on our youtube page. I can ask around and see how its coming along.
I think things like that may be the way forward man if you have the trade stock and bits to back it up .plus the staff get to make up the theme and i think you said yourself its more fun working on a project with a bit of a theme and conversion work .it doesn't need to be all ott more kit bashing what you already have . not every body has the money or wants to risk the money on uber armies.a half built tank with bits missing may have pretty much zero value in trade but then you also aren't paying anything for it really .im sure people chuck extra crap in just to get shot of it from time to time .so make cheap terrain why well because you can .i seen the eldar terrain and loads of times it was hey we just blow x $ on y tank and im sitting here thinking my arse you did ,thats prob some poor tank that was half built and badly at that you got for next to nothing .
ianj253 wrote: I like how this thread consist of mostly repeated posters on a crusade against BTP. Occupy DAKKA DAKKA ST laawlzzz.
This certainly has some truth to it.
What is worse is that the anti-BTP activists seem bound to smear them wherever they can. They seek out MiniWargaming, Mantic, Crystal Brush, etc.. everyone who has ever said anything positive about BTP and try to smear them there (they also found my lowly blog post about BTP only to post a long list of links that show what a deamonic entity BTP really is... guess I should feel honoured).
There're a lot of legitimate criticisms one can bring against BTP, but a smear campaign and witch hunt of this proportion is - if anything - even more repulsive.
ianj253 wrote: I like how this thread consist of mostly repeated posters on a crusade against BTP. Occupy DAKKA DAKKA ST laawlzzz.
This certainly has some truth to it.
What is worse is that the anti-BTP activists seem bound to smear them wherever they can. They seek out MiniWargaming, Mantic, Crystal Brush, etc.. everyone who has ever said anything positive about BTP and try to smear them there (they also found my lowly blog post about BTP only to post a long list of links that show what a deamonic entity BTP really is... guess I should feel honoured).
There're a lot of legitimate criticisms one can bring against BTP, but a smear campaign and witch hunt of this proportion is - if anything - even more repulsive.
I couldn't agree more. There are some legitimate criticisms that have been brought up, but I don't understand this smear campaign at all. To me it seems like the posters here would only be satisfied if BTP goes down in flames and I'd hate to see that.
If there is a lot of legitimate criticisms brought against BTP why aren't other people allowed to know about it esp when they are asking for $40.000 ? willingly defrauding the IRS, poor worker employee relations and braking of labor laws ,lack of transparency about BTP`s financial status and work practice. it isn't a smear campaign if what your saying is true plus don't you think people have a right to know about things like this before parting with hard cash ?
so im worse than a man who engages in all of the above ? I`m also not posting on other forums trying to blacken BTP`s name .ok it seems giving a crap about the state of wargaming is a crime these days .have fun being self righteous and ignorant i don't care anymore .
catachan1brainleaf wrote: If there is a lot of legitimate criticisms brought against BTP why aren't other people allowed to know about it esp when they are asking for $40.000 ? willingly defrauding the IRS, poor worker employee relations and braking of labor laws ,lack of transparency about BTP`s financial status and work practice. it isn't a smear campaign if what your saying is true plus don't you think people have a right to know about things like this before parting with hard cash ?
so im worse than a man who engages in all of the above ? I`m also not posting on other forums trying to blacken BTP`s name .ok it seems giving a crap about the state of wargaming is a crime these days .have fun being self righteous and ignorant i don't care anymore .
Posting some information is fine.
Fake accounts like catachan1brainleaf or bowoflostcells, with 90% of their entire posting history dedicating to throwing mud at this Blue Table Painting discussion and literally occupying every other post here to stifle any kind of discussion of the information posted in its infancy, certainly does smell of a smear campaign.
If you're allowed to voice legitimate criticism (with altogether to much fanatical zeal), I am allowed to voice legitimate criticism of the rather shady nature of those voicing the criticism, who seem very eager to shout it into everyones face under the guise of anonymous fake-accounts created only for that purpose.
Easy tiger this is not a fake account its an old one i made last year and havent really used .i dont play 40k i play whfb but dont hang out on any of the related forum bar bugmans i dont play either hordes or warmachine don't play flames of war .i mean i could list all the major topics on here of which none interest me .i do play lots of wargames just not the top 7 or 8 which also seem to be the only ones most people know about .so why when there is forums dedicated to the games i do play would i post on here ? i only came over here after TGN shut the thread down and because i was told people here were already talking about this whole thing which they were.don't give me this oh oh he`s got a fake account crap .
now whos out on a smear campaign ? get your facts right before you start slinging dirt .
So . . . while the basecoat on my terminator squad is drying, I figured I would check the forum.
Although I was not specifically mentioned as one of the people smearing BTP, I just wanted to chime in for a moment.
I have avoided forums in the past - TMP, DAKKA DAKKA, TMP, and so on - for this very reason. Too often things get out of hand.
Anyway, I did register here only to get in on the BTP discussion after the TMP forum was locked. I explained this in my first post.
I think that it is important to hear from both sides of an issue (and the fringes as well).
I think that folks are clever enough to read and heed posted comments that are useful and disregard the rest.
It is also important to stick to the facts and what you know first hand in a discussion like this one.
If nothing else, I think it was very useful to hear from past and current employees on both sides of the fence.
Watch my video here http://youtu.be/z77AqRvp0YM for 2 minutes starting at about 19:45 to hear about my experience. I posted the video before I knew anything about BTP's KS and I mentioned what happened only as part of explaining why I was making a video.
Sure, I am upset with BTP for how I was treated, but even more disappointed.
catachan1brainleaf wrote: If there is a lot of legitimate criticisms brought against BTP why aren't other people allowed to know about it esp when they are asking for $40.000 ? willingly defrauding the IRS, poor worker employee relations and braking of labor laws ,lack of transparency about BTP`s financial status and work practice. it isn't a smear campaign if what your saying is true plus don't you think people have a right to know about things like this before parting with hard cash ?
so im worse than a man who engages in all of the above ? I`m also not posting on other forums trying to blacken BTP`s name .ok it seems giving a crap about the state of wargaming is a crime these days .have fun being self righteous and ignorant i don't care anymore .
Posting some information is fine.
Fake accounts like catachan1brainleaf or bowoflostcells, with 90% of their entire posting history dedicating to throwing mud at this Blue Table Painting discussion and literally occupying every other post here to stifle any kind of discussion of the information posted in its infancy, certainly does smell of a smear campaign.
If you're allowed to voice legitimate criticism (with altogether to much fanatical zeal), I am allowed to voice legitimate criticism of the rather shady nature of those voicing the criticism, who seem very eager to shout it into everyones face under the guise of anonymous fake-accounts created only for that purpose.
I'll give you the benefit of a doubt (or innocent until proven guilty), just as I'll give it to BTP. .that very big of you after what you just said .ya think maybe some of us are just honest but pissed off gamers ? the admins can check my IP or whatever they want but im telling you now this is my only account on here. and since my youtube channel of the same name is no longer on the go due in no small part to me getting sick of all the ego`s and money grabbing on there these days .you think i made this account prob over a year agi il actually have to check myself since i never use it just so i could lay in wait and slander BTP a year down the line about something i had no idea about lol man i didnt even remember this account until i tried to register and was reminded of it lol
MiniWarGaming is obviously protecting BTP with the immediate assumption that everything said here is false - Even though Shawn has previously admitted to the tax fraud.
Yesterday I started a thread on your forum discussing ethical concerns that myself and others have had with some of Blue Table Painting's practices.
These claims involve past tax fraud by this organization, which Shawn has admitted to being true. He has admitted on Tabletop Gaming News that these allegations are indeed true (www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2012/10/22/65829/).
"Basically those that filed the complaint got what they wanted. Legally, the matter is settled. “Compliance” I think they called it. I even made a few friends at the IRS. This was early 2008."
The thread that I started on your forums to discuss these concerns was immediately locked by the Admin with the explanation "apparently most of what is being said is hearsay or plain false". The only problem is that the claims have been verified by Shawn. Now I am left wondering why your organization would suppress discussion about legitimate ethical issues without investigating these claims further.
I am concerned that your organization is dismissing very serious ethical concerns out of hand simply due to your business relationship with BTP, rather than investigating these concerns.
In the past I have admired the videos that you have produced on YouTube. Right now I would like to know precisely where MiniWarGaming stands with regards to Blue Table Painting and allegations of unethical practices.
-Thank you
Automatically Appended Next Post: Don't hold your breath, but I'll post the reply that I get from MiniWarGaming (if I ever get a reply) as soon as I get it.
I want to reiterate what Alpharius said as well. Let's keep the discussion here polite and civil.
Remember, for those who are looking for a miniatures painting service, like I was, this is currently the only place where information can be found about BTP so that they can make an informed decision about whether or not to do business with an organization of questionable ethical nature.
Shawn deletes any negative comments on his youtube channel. Both the Tabletop Gaming News threads and the MiniWarGaming Forum threads are now locked. This is the only place you can find out the truth about BTP. If this tread turns into a flame war with people attacking each other, then this thread will be gone as well.
Why has what is an issue that is internal to BTP and its employees (current or ex) become a crusade to pull down what Shawn has built? You don't have to like or even agree with what has been done. I don't, and I've worked for people like that myself so I understand how it feels. I don't work for those people any longer, and I don't use their businesses either. I discourage other people I know from doing so. But I'm not emailing every neighbor, competitor, and business partner that they have to try and get them drummed out of business. That seems unfair and a bit like misplaced energy.
Are there really people who so can't stand to see some build a business, and become the 800 pound gorilla of bespoke painting, that at the first sign of an issue they grab the torches and pitchforks? It seems like people are gunning for BTP wildly simply because it's the biggest target on a target rich landscape. I agree that whatever he's alleged to have done is pretty dishonest, and I don't enjoy his insane libertarian streak, but Shawn is a big boy and he can deal with the consequences of his actions and find resolution himself with the people involved. Additionally, the posts by ex and current employees of BTP have been intelligent and thoughtful, and they have clearly demonstrated that they don't need the rabble to stick up for them. Seems like things worked out for the best for them post-BTP.
If you don't like the services BTP provides, do not hire them. There are a lot of really awesome alternatives, as we've all seen in this thread. Instead of harassing MWG or whomever else, and I'm not even sure what you're trying to accomplish. You're just spreading vitriol at this point. Use that energy for something constructive. Maybe spend more time promoting the commission painters you like and feel deserve your custom instead of trying to drag BTP down. Start a thread about nukearts or someone else, start a blog about alternatives to BTP, use that energy for something positive. The easiest and most positive way to have an impact on BTP is send business to their competitors, not harassing the MWG guys.
If things are really so bad there, and their service so bad, and the owner really so reprehensible, what you want to happen will happen in the natural course of events.
Full disclosure: Earlier in the thread I gave BTP services a good review, and I stand by that review of the services I received.
Zygrot24 wrote: You don't have to like or even agree with what has been done. I don't, and I've worked for people like that myself..
.. I agree that whatever he's alleged to have done is pretty dishonest, and I don't enjoy his insane libertarian streak...
For those of us who are looking for a miniatures painting service, just as I was, I think it is important to have all the facts on the table so that you can make an informed decision about who to do business with. If a company has a very questionable moral track record, this is important information to me. It might not be to you, but it is to me. Shawn actively suppresses any criticism of his company, which is why we are working to make sure that the facts are out there for anybody to see.
If these facts don't affect your selection of commission painters, then don't take them into account when making your selection. But allow us to spread this awareness for those who want to take ethics into account when choosing a painting service.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So here's the response that I got from Matthew Glanfield
Basically what it comes down to is that I don't believe half of what is being said.
All Shawn admitted to was making mistakes on his taxes due to ignorance, which I think most companies have done (heck, I've done it, which cost me a lot of money a few years ago).
Also, reading the negative comments doesn't make me think anything of his policies. I met Shawn personally, and I met a lot of his employees. They are very happy to work for him.
So say what you want, but I don't want to have our forum used to talk badly about him. You can keep those discussions in other areas of the Internet.
Matthew
It is unfortunate that he's discounting everything that people here have said, especially former employees.
It is totally obvious that Shawn manipulated and coerced his employees into masquerading as contractors just to defraud the government. However Matthew Glanfield has chosen to publicly stand by Shawn's lies for the sake of preserving a business relationship.
I don't disagree with you. But if the BTP profile doesn't reflect reality or drowns out options you think are better, it might be better to make your preferred option bigger instead of trying to make BTP smaller. And it certainly doesn't help matters to harass MWG about it. Even if you feel their response to you was disingenuous, what is it you expect MWG to do about it? Deleting the forum post is reasonably protecting themselves from the kind of vitriol in this thread, even with the feeble rationalization.
By all means, discourage people from using BTP. I was happy with my service but that does not make me married to them, I don't think I'll be using them again in the future. But focus your energy more constructively than trying to destroy, even though you think you're righteous trying to destroy some edifice you find distasteful. Pulling BTP through the mud to drag down their profile doesn't actually help the alternatives.
Zygrot24 wrote: And it certainly doesn't help matters to harass MWG about it. Even if you feel their response to you was disingenuous, what is it you expect MWG to do about it? Deleting the forum post is reasonably protecting themselves from the kind of vitriol in this thread, even with the feeble rationalization.
Let me say that I was a fan of MWG. I love their videos and the batreps. I love their hosts! I never harassed MWG, nor did I ever mean to harrass them. It was my genuine hope that they were unaware of the ethical problems that BTP had. I was hoping that by shining light on these concerns, they would decide to distance themselves from BTP.
Not only are they aware of what Shawn has done, they are publicly standing by him despite these truths. This is disappointing to me.
It's their bed, they made it, they'll have to sleep in it.
The threads and conversations about BTP have been more about digging up ammo to shoot at them than encouraging people to use alternatives. It's not an attitude I generally like to see coming from "my people," war gamers.
I`m going to give this thread a rest for a bit .i just think people may be interested to know that most of BTP`S studio armies made in the past months are still up there for sale .if these haven't sold yet why have a kickstarter to build 100`s ?
That army is a commission army. You buy it than they paint it. They can make more than one just like the necron army up their. They could have already sold that army multiple times for all you know.
Miniwargaming is an awesome company and there videos were the reason I started to play 40k again. It's a fact that they do great things for the community and I'm glad Matt took a stand for what he believes in.
The Tax thing isn't really a concern for me, it's been proven the ex-employers are correct in this matter, and the IRS settled it.
What's got me concerned is a good friend has a project in with BTP at the moment and by their own admission it's taken them 5 weeks just to order the models. This confirms what the "current" employee said about there always being a 5-8k order back log and BTP using new project deposits to finnish and order older projects stuff.
That is plan robbing peter to pay paul and is no better then what is currectly happening with MG in the UK.
I think people have a right to be concerned, but I will be the first one to eat my hat if BTP actaully deliver a product my mate is happy with.
Shawn is constantly telling people in his video's turn around is quick on average 2-5 weeks, he has admitted to a ordering problem and blamed it on staff but holds to this turnaround time even though he knows at present that is misleading.
Then there is the actaully quality of the product, to date I have only seen one person display their project and talk up the experience... if there are 6000+ projects completed and the owners are happy why isn't youtube etc full of glowing reports?
I am going to ask my mate to post a full review here when / if this project arrives and if credit is due I will appologise for my concerns and doubts.
Matthew from MiniWarGaming is just being blinded by this friendship and to be honest it's his name and business so if he wants to bck BTP thats more then his right.
Fake accounts like catachan1brainleaf or bowoflostcells, with 90% of their entire posting history dedicating to throwing mud at this Blue Table Painting discussion and literally occupying every other post here to stifle any kind of discussion of the information posted in its infancy, certainly does smell of a smear campaign.
You're spot on about Brainleaf. His original you tube account was banned by BTP after spamming their channel with all his "concerns" so he made another account and spammed them again. I guess he gave up on two but I haven't really been paying attention to BTP's youtube channel.
ianj253 wrote: That army is a commission army. You buy it than they paint it. They can make more than one just like the necron army up their. They could have already sold that army multiple times for all you know.
Miniwargaming is an awesome company and there videos were the reason I started to play 40k again. It's a fact that they do great things for the community and I'm glad Matt took a stand for what he believes in.
That army is only one of many on the site .and i don't see any need to go pestering other sites .
It is totally obvious that Shawn manipulated and coerced his employees into masquerading as contractors just to defraud the government. However Matthew Glanfield has chosen to publicly stand by Shawn's lies for the sake of preserving a business relationship.
I disagree. We don't know what was going on in his head. He may have done it on purpose he may not have. Even if he did do it on purpose It isn't really a big issue in my mind. He is trying to run a small business in what I think is a market that isn't really that big. He may have done it just to keep his business from hitting the red and imploding by not having to pay as much tax. It wasn't ok for him to try and make the people that worked for break the law though if they said no that should have been the end of it. His action of firing them later to me speaks more of having money issues than being spiteful. Which would be why he broke the law in the first place. Running a small business isn't easy
I think it's good that these issues are being talked about however. I for one was seriously considering getting something from BTP and now I'm not really sure what to do :(
Fake accounts like catachan1brainleaf or bowoflostcells, with 90% of their entire posting history dedicating to throwing mud at this Blue Table Painting discussion and literally occupying every other post here to stifle any kind of discussion of the information posted in its infancy, certainly does smell of a smear campaign.
You're spot on about Brainleaf. His original you tube account was banned by BTP after spamming their channel with all his "concerns" so he made another account and spammed them again. I guess he gave up on two but I haven't really been paying attention to BTP's youtube channel.
well since all my comments were being deleted i was angry when i seen what was going on over on TGN .and yes it was "concerns" that pushed me to spam their their video`s telling people to look at what being said on TGN .or don't you think people who are backing BTP to the tune of $40.000 deserve to know about it ? and my original youtube channel was the same name as i use on here .the Herodotus one is just some i can like and fav vids to watch later .and i stopped commenting on BTP videos as soon as people started twigging to what was going on .but who am i to stop you trying to blacken my name with your snide remarks .any other dirt you'd like to fling ? as it isn't going to affect what people already know about BTP .oh and it wasn't banned by BTP it was blocked .i also didn't think people were that daft they couldn't figure out that was all me .but thanks for jumping in feet first btw did you actually read any of whats going on over at BTP or just trigger happy about spouting something everybody should know already if they had any sense at all ?
So am I the only one who clicked on that Chaos Dwarf army "they still haven't sold".
Then read the "This is NOT an army we have on hand".
Nice evidence there Inspector Gadget...
As for 6000+ projects and Youtube not being full of Happy Customers, well its not full of Pissed Off Customers either and its been proven people with complain before they complement.
"Well I'm going to lock this thread as apparently most of what is being said is hearsay or plain false."
That's an ... interesting conclusion (or is it arbitrary dismissal?), considering the only reason I posted here was because I could not respond to BTP Roberts near complete and total (heresay) misrepresentation of the facts regarding the whole taxes/contractors issue.
As I said before, Roberts explanation of the situation was about as incorrect as it could be. He was offering disingenuous explanations that were not even remotely close to fact. I didn't accuse him of lying. I knew he wasn't even working at BTP when the situation happened. So, should I conclude that Shawn told Robert the 'real problem' was that some painters didn't like deadlines and specific instructions? If so, Shawn absolutely categorically LIED about the events. Or maybe, it was just a mis-communication. Or maybe, it was just more spin. Those who don't like history simply re-write it.
Ultimately, anything said in this thread or any other thread on any other forum isn't going to affect BTPs bottom line in any tangible way. Shawn's been very successful in creating a brand, and I'll freely admit he's a pro when it comes to selling himself and relationships with his studio. In some ways, I think that's the true success of BTP - not rapidly painted moderate quality miniatures.
For those that wanted to know, this thread did provide some facts. That's all that really mattered to me.
Xanrn wrote: So am I the only one who clicked on that Chaos Dwarf army "they still haven't sold".
Then read the "This is NOT an army we have on hand".
Nice evidence there Inspector Gadget...
As for 6000+ projects and Youtube not being full of Happy Customers, well its not full of Pissed Off Customers either and its been proven people with complain before they complement.
Considering Shawn deletes all negative comments on his vids, that doesn't mean anything either.
It is totally obvious that Shawn manipulated and coerced his employees into masquerading as contractors just to defraud the government. However Matthew Glanfield has chosen to publicly stand by Shawn's lies for the sake of preserving a business relationship.
I disagree. We don't know what was going on in his head. He may have done it on purpose he may not have. Even if he did do it on purpose It isn't really a big issue in my mind. He is trying to run a small business in what I think is a market that isn't really that big. He may have done it just to keep his business from hitting the red and imploding by not having to pay as much tax. It wasn't ok for him to try and make the people that worked for break the law though if they said no that should have been the end of it. His action of firing them later to me speaks more of having money issues than being spiteful. Which would be why he broke the law in the first place. Running a small business isn't easy
I think it's good that these issues are being talked about however. I for one was seriously considering getting something from BTP and now I'm not really sure what to do :(
Waitaminute.
"We don't know what was going on in his head" ?
I do. I was there. Shawn was very very very vocal and forthcoming with his opinions, and he certainly told us all what he thought.
"He may have done it on purpose he may not have"
I'll absolutely agree that he may not have been aware, initially, of the problem. But I went to him. More than once. I printed pages directly from the IRS website. Information so clear and obvious there was no mistaking what it said. I wanted to fix it. I wanted to stay at BTP.
" His action of firing them later to me speaks more of having money issues than being spiteful."
Why not both? He fired those - and you can fact check this with Shawn himself - who agreed that his existing non-compete agreement was invalid if we were to be independent contractors. Do you understand what that means? He could have had a legal NCA if he had employees. He wanted it both ways. He wanted NO competition of any kind, ever., AND he wanted to not have to pay employee taxes, compensation,, etc.
That's why he drafted the agreements to not have a time limit. He said to me, and I will quote, "I'll just have my cake AND eat it too" when he told everyone they were being let go and he was going back to solo painting.
Does that sound spiteful to you?
I won't condemn the man in his entirety, but he made many many repeated mistakes - personal and professional - and intentional decisions that hurt everyone that worked for him as a result. I can only assume he's learned from the experience, and maybe BTP is a much better place to work now.
But please, that whole 'who really knows WHY it all happened, so let's just not talk about it" is so flimsy it's not even funny.
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.” Winston Churchill
Brother SRM wrote: With Blue Table you're paying for the name and the reliable service. Personally I find their paintjobs to be subpar, and bordering on heinous for the price. Here are some:
Seriously, look at this:
I didn't really expect to see one of the models I had commissioned from them in this thread. I wasn't planning on commenting but I feel obligated to tell my story. This was quite a while ago but basically I wanted a test squad because I had an entire space marine battle company that needed assembled and painted but when I received the test squad I immediately sold them on eBay and went a different route. It should also be noted this was considered level 3 at the time.
Xanrn wrote: So am I the only one who clicked on that Chaos Dwarf army "they still haven't sold".
Then read the "This is NOT an army we have on hand".
Nice evidence there Inspector Gadget...
As for 6000+ projects and Youtube not being full of Happy Customers, well its not full of Pissed Off Customers either and its been proven people with complain before they complement.
there are other armies up there and sorry for not seeing that bit of info about the chaos dwarfs .
its not full of Pissed Off Customers either and its been proven people with complain before they complement.
You do know that Shawn has admitted that he deletes posts on youtube with criticism right? Apparently he also gets his friends to block threads that don't praise him, like Matthew Glanfield on www.miniwargaming.com/ They are all part of his campaign to suppress the truth.
Unfortunately, Dakka Dakka is the only place that allows free speech.
Like many, I've been keeping an eye on this whole ordeal since the start. As a commission painter, I don't want to get wrapped up in the arguing because it's unprofessional, and since I have no direct experience with BTP I don't want to sound bitter or jealous. However, I have had some general thoughts I'd like to add to the discussion.
-I don't think the majority of concerns are coming from a place of hostility. No reasonable person wants to see BTP fail; rather, I think BTP is seen as the poster-child for commission painters, and their current quality isn't what it should be. When looking up commission painters, BTP is the first search result you'll get. To the casual commission seeker (or to anyone who isn't a regular browser/poster of several websites and youtube channels), everyone is going to be "a painter like BTP," and when they see higher prices for lower-quality work, it affects the hobby. So yes, BTP is being "attacked" because of their status, but I really don't think the majority of critics want them to fail. Rather, people want them to be responsible and accountable for the spotlight that's constantly on them.
-To those wanting a good discussion, avoid sitting at an extreme. I've seen the tax fraud argument brought up several times, but from what I'm gathering it was settled years ago and isn't necessarily relevant to current practices. Likewise, I've seen people ignore everything and cry "witch hunt!" I don't believe BTP is where they should be. They've ballooned beyond what they expected after 9 successful years, and these are the times that make or break a business. It seems that BTP is trying to come to grips with their size, and like any business they're going to explore avenues that work, and they'll test ideas that will fail. If we want to help BTP, we need to keep our arguments leveled; don't nit-pick at every poor decision or hoist up individual cases that may not reflect the common experience. Likewise, don't bury your head in the sand and think that BTP can do no wrong, or just sit in ignorance because you don't want to take sides. Having a balanced perspective and clear head is key to any mature discussion. (as a note, I want to thank you guys for keeping this primarily mature and adult in nature!)
-The Kickstarter. This is something that I think needs to be addressed. Like many, when BTP was hinting at a Kickstarter I was expecting them to come out with some sort of BTP product - models, painting supplies, painting guides, etc. Instead, they're asking for funds to expand a business service. Honestly, I love the idea of "turbo armies." This is really a game-changer for those who want a competitive, painted army right away. However, the idea itself goes against Kickstarter's guidelines. Specifically, they aren't supposed to allow projects to "start a business," and I'd argue that this project would have been rejected if it was a brand new company trying to get started painting turbo armies.
Sadly, a common criticism of KS is that they will allow almost anything as long as they think the project will succeed and their 3% fee will be worthwhile. KS is as much at fault for green-lighting this (and ignoring all the reports) as BTP is for starting it. KS has brought out the greedy part of MANY people, because it's an easy way to get money for projects that could otherwise take months or years of hard work. And while KS was the last straw, I don't think it needs to be the big issue of this discussion. Let's face it, if we weren't all suffering from Kickstarter Fatigue (soon to be an accepted medical diagnosis, I'm told) this wouldn't have been nearly as big of an issue.
-Finally, I think it'd be good for this conversation to go somewhere. Really, what is the point of this whole internet discussion? After 6 pages on DakkaDakka, plus numerous discussion elsewhere, I haven't really seen a clear goal for these arguments. Some people are venting months/years of frustrations and disappointments, others may be joining in on the attack because that's how the internet works, and others are giving personal experience (positive or negative) to show what BTP is about. But this whole thing should really have an end goal, otherwise it will just be a series of arguments until it burns itself out and nothing is changed.
Does BTP need to be responsible for their business practices? Do they need to apologize to their workers and promise to fix their employee treatment?
Do we want an apology for their KS? Do they need to shut it down and try something else to fund Turbo Armies?
Do they need to fix their painting quality? Lower their prices?
Sorry for any rambling, as I've never figured out that whole "clear and concise point" writing style. I guess the TL;DR is that we need to figure out a purpose for this discussion while keeping it mature on both sides.
I think Rayofpaint pretty much covered it. Unfortunetly, BTP won't alter their business practices without some kind of pressure exerted on them. From what I've seen, appealing to their business partners such as Miniwargaming isn't working, because MWG is covering for them and shutting down any discussion on their forums. This is something that I think the users of Dakka need to look into also. And no, I'm not attacking MWG. I'm a MWG customer myself who doesn't want to see MWG dragged through the mud once this thing goes more mainstream.
Ray - lengthy or not, that was particularly insightful and well written.
My posts certainly do not stem from hostility. I jumped in on this thread because I felt I had to present accurate facts in light of what I saw as gross inaccuracy on the TGN thread, which had been locked. Robert had offered his explanation of the tax status issue, and people thanked him for clarifying it. To me, that's an injustice. I wanted people to know the facts.
By saying what I've said here, I'm not trying to facilitate BTPs failure. That goal would be beyond the ability of anyone but Shawn. There have been claims made that I was able to confirm (painters receiving approx. 30% of painting prices) and questions raised that I was able to answer. To me, that's all good - the more factual information is available, the more educated a consumer can be. (See the very first post of this thread.)
I'm of the opinion that the KS project is not appropriate - if BTP was creating a new line of models or unique bits or even a new ruleset for universal miniatures gaming, I would be more apt to consider that legitimately KS worthy. I'll freely admit though, I'm not all that knowledgeable about KS as a whole, so my opinion is only one man's opinion.
Lastly, regarding your "so what?" series of questions, I'd say:
Does BTP need to be responsible for their business practices? I think an actual acknowledgement from Shawn addressing his culpability re: the past tax status issue would go a long way towards showing he has the integrity he claims to have. The closest to it so far has been on the TGN thread where he said "IF I did anything wrong, I sure paid for it." That's not even close to an admission. I'm not bruised and heartbroken and waiting 4 years for an apology, but I think others would certainly see this as the stand-up guy thing to do.
Do they need to apologize to their workers and promise to fix their employee treatment? As I said, I'm not waiting on an apology. I doubt any of the other ex-workers from my time period are either. Honestly, an apology would be irrelevant. It wasn't a mistake that was made - it was a decision that was made when Shawn was confronted with the incontrovertible fact that he could not 'hold all the cards,' for lack of a more apt phrase. What's he going to say? As far as his current employees are concerned, I can only assume most are content or better with their positions, so probably no promises needed there, either.
Do we want an apology for their KS? I can't see this even being within the realm of possibility.
Do they need to shut it down and try something else to fund Turbo Armies? Personally, i would say yes - it seems there's quite a bit of doubt as to the real intentions behind the KS project, but like everyone else has said - if you don't approve of it, don't fund it. I'm curious to see the end result.
Do they need to fix their painting quality? Lower their prices? I'd say no and no, but as in they can't, not that they shouldn't. It couldn't happen without completely invalidating their business model. As it is, the price to quality ratio is skewed to begin with because of overhead - rent, utilities, etc. On top of that, all the "wow, cool" elements they provide - superlative customer service/contact, battle reports, videos - anything and everything that's not directly assembling/painting miniatures - make no mistake, these ARE being paid for. Time is invested in all these aspects, and time is money.
I think, in the long run, this thread does have a purpose, is still on topic - afterall, the first line of this thread was "Does anybody have any experience with this painting service?"
its not full of Pissed Off Customers either and its been proven people with complain before they complement.
You do know that Shawn has admitted that he deletes posts on youtube with criticism right? Apparently he also gets his friends to block threads that don't praise him, like Matthew Glanfield on www.miniwargaming.com/ They are all part of his campaign to suppress the truth.
Unfortunately, Dakka Dakka is the only place that allows free speech.
Oh god... can I interest you in a tin foil hat? You do understand that sites like dakka, MWG and even a youtube channel are under no obligation to provide you with a platform to slander them or there friends/partners? (or in your case to run a smear campaign) If you are saying something negative and they want to remove a comment or lock a thread then that is just how gak is.
Also for the record I cant stand Shaun or BTPs videos, the persona he presents for his channel makes me want to burn a bag full of puppies just to get some balance. But its just gaks me even more when I see someone with an axe to grind (seriously did a BTP staff memeber shag ya missus or something?) trying to rally folk against someone instead of confronting them directly. Grow a set of balls and confront him yourself if you have issue with the man/business.
its not full of Pissed Off Customers either and its been proven people with complain before they complement.
You do know that Shawn has admitted that he deletes posts on youtube with criticism right? Apparently he also gets his friends to block threads that don't praise him, like Matthew Glanfield on www.miniwargaming.com/ They are all part of his campaign to suppress the truth.
Unfortunately, Dakka Dakka is the only place that allows free speech.
Oh god... can I interest you in a tin foil hat? You do understand that sites like dakka, MWG and even a youtube channel are under no obligation to provide you with a platform to slander them or there friends/partners? (or in your case to run a smear campaign) If you are saying something negative and they want to remove a comment or lock a thread then that is just how gak is.
Also for the record I cant stand Shaun or BTPs videos, the persona he presents for his channel makes me want to burn a bag full of puppies just to get some balance. But its just gaks me even more when I see someone with an axe to grind (seriously did a BTP staff memeber shag ya missus or something?) trying to rally folk against someone instead of confronting them directly. Grow a set of balls and confront him yourself if you have issue with the man/business.
I hope you realize, there's a difference between trying to rally people against BTP, versus making the community aware of what BTP is doing? Obviously, BTP deletes negative posts from their websites and from youtube, so there's no honest criticism there. Dakka is pretty much the largest community of miniatures games players, and they don't censor posts. So, Dakka is the place to go to have an open discussion about the situation.
What would you expect him to do? He can't say these things on their website or youtube channel, because they'll delete his posts. Where else can the community as a whole be warned? If you visited a business in your city and you had concerns afterwards, wouldn't you want to tell your neighbors and friends about it? Everyone deserves fair warning about what they're stepping into if they try to do business with BTP. Personally, I've seen some examples of their work, and haven't been particularly impressed. Considering the fact that they charge a large fee for their services, that alone should be shouted into the virtual streets of the internet. You can get better paint jobs for less money.
I'm inclined to believe with you both. It seems like there is a little bit more of a "rallying" cry coming from bowloflostcells, but at the same time, Iron Dragon is right. The community as a whole should be able to get all the information they can about a company they're possibly spending hundreds of dollars on...
Alfndrate wrote: I'm inclined to believe with you both. It seems like there is a little bit more of a "rallying" cry coming from bowloflostcells, but at the same time, Iron Dragon is right. The community as a whole should be able to get all the information they can about a company they're possibly spending hundreds of dollars on...
You've also got to look at where the information is coming from.
Ex employees complaining? Ask any HR director if they would hire an employee that vocally complains about a previous employer. They wont, because it's unprofessional to do so and a huge red flag. Maybe they no longer work there for the reasons they are stating. Maybe they're of the disgruntled type because they've been fired for incompetance, bad fit, really any reason a person feels bad for losing a job. Bad source of info even if they have documentation of Shawn eating babies.
New forum users, who ask a question about a service they have no knowledge of, and then become extremely opinionated about? Uhhh.... also bad.
Other commission painters? Sure, if they offer a comparable service, which they don't. Not for turnaround, not for volume, maybe higher quality, and only if they're currently booking projects. Otherwise... bad.
Ex employees that post bad paintjobs of lopsided tits and then singsong poor rhymes in bold yellow text because they found a bad BTP model from years ago? Lol maybe they painted it. Still, just an awful thing to do.
I've also seen a lot of praise in amongst the wiener waving and vitriol.
I'll still use BTP, because I've gotten good results from them. Painting, turnaround, and service all awesome. You can't argue that the webstore doesn't have great deals.
In conclusion, don't stock up on canned food because some hobo with a sandwich board told you the world was ending. It's very likely that he's just crazy.
Alfndrate wrote: I'm inclined to believe with you both. It seems like there is a little bit more of a "rallying" cry coming from bowloflostcells, but at the same time, Iron Dragon is right. The community as a whole should be able to get all the information they can about a company they're possibly spending hundreds of dollars on...
You've also got to look at where the information is coming from.
Ex employees complaining? Ask any HR director if they would hire an employee that vocally complains about a previous employer. They wont, because it's unprofessional to do so and a huge red flag. Maybe they no longer work there for the reasons they are stating. Maybe they're of the disgruntled type because they've been fired for incompetance, bad fit, really any reason a person feels bad for losing a job. Bad source of info even if they have documentation of Shawn eating babies.
New forum users, who ask a question about a service they have no knowledge of, and then become extremely opinionated about? Uhhh.... also bad.
Other commission painters? Sure, if they offer a comparable service, which they don't. Not for turnaround, not for volume, maybe higher quality, and only if they're currently booking projects. Otherwise... bad.
Ex employees that post bad paintjobs of lopsided tits and then singsong poor rhymes in bold yellow text because they found a bad BTP model from years ago? Lol maybe they painted it. Still, just an awful thing to do.
I've also seen a lot of praise in amongst the wiener waving and vitriol.
I'll still use BTP, because I've gotten good results from them. Painting, turnaround, and service all awesome. You can't argue that the webstore doesn't have great deals.
In conclusion, don't stock up on canned food because some hobo with a sandwich board told you the world was ending. It's very likely that he's just crazy.
Ok, so let me see if I've got this right. When asked the question, "Under what circumstances did you leave your last job?" or "Why did you leave your last job?" one should NEVER offer the actual accurate facts, and one should NEVER "vocally complain about a previous employer." That's ridiculous, and patently false, as I'm gainfully employed at a company whose HR director asked me those exact questions, and I told her the exact facts I've provided on this thread.
"Bad source of info even if they have documentation of Shawn eating babies." What would be a good source of info, in your opinion? It's been established that BTP struggles with criticism of any kind, constructive or otherwise, so whose experience would you consider valid? There are biases on both 'sides' of course. But facts that can be verified are facts.
You seem to be suggesting that no one has a right or valid perspective to offer ANY commentary/criticism of BTP because they're either:
a. angry/resentful
b. lying
c. not identical to BTP in size or productivity
Again, not going to mince words - that's just ridiculous.
You've had overall good to great experiences with BTP - that's great for you. Should someone point out that you really don't have a valid perspective since you're:
a. not a 'professional painter'
b. possibly a BTP mole/plant
c. disingenuous/contrarian/trolling
That would be silly, right?
Almost as silly as your comparison of the doomsday hobo to any of the posters on this thread. Your presuppositions are showing, and they're not pretty.
So, the question still stands? WHO would you consider useful and accurate sources of information regarding BTP, their products, their business and their owner?
Alfndrate wrote: I'm inclined to believe with you both. It seems like there is a little bit more of a "rallying" cry coming from bowloflostcells, but at the same time, Iron Dragon is right. The community as a whole should be able to get all the information they can about a company they're possibly spending hundreds of dollars on...
You've also got to look at where the information is coming from.
Ex employees complaining? Ask any HR director if they would hire an employee that vocally complains about a previous employer. They wont, because it's unprofessional to do so and a huge red flag. Maybe they no longer work there for the reasons they are stating. Maybe they're of the disgruntled type because they've been fired for incompetance, bad fit, really any reason a person feels bad for losing a job. Bad source of info even if they have documentation of Shawn eating babies.
New forum users, who ask a question about a service they have no knowledge of, and then become extremely opinionated about? Uhhh.... also bad.
Other commission painters? Sure, if they offer a comparable service, which they don't. Not for turnaround, not for volume, maybe higher quality, and only if they're currently booking projects. Otherwise... bad.
Ex employees that post bad paintjobs of lopsided tits and then singsong poor rhymes in bold yellow text because they found a bad BTP model from years ago? Lol maybe they painted it. Still, just an awful thing to do.
I've also seen a lot of praise in amongst the wiener waving and vitriol.
I'll still use BTP, because I've gotten good results from them. Painting, turnaround, and service all awesome. You can't argue that the webstore doesn't have great deals.
In conclusion, don't stock up on canned food because some hobo with a sandwich board told you the world was ending. It's very likely that he's just crazy.
I'm pretty sure that personally attacking users of this forum is disallowed. Tread cautiously.
I listen to my local doomsday hobo... In fact I will be laughing on November 13th when I'm zapped up to the mother ship and saved because I've been wearing peanut butter in my britches for the past 2 months...
But seriously, I've never received commission work from BTP, nor will I. Their price point is way too high for me to even consider getting my Rasputina box painted to a decent standard. Not to mention the pricing on some of the stuff for sale in their store.
Rant about the Webstore's "Awesome" deals:
Spoiler:
800 dollars for an assembled and painted Cryx army lot that BTP hasn't touched (according to the description which says: One lage Cryx army. The paint is worn in some places, but overall the painting is very nice. ). Why would you attempt to sell something for that price, and not have your painters touch it up really quickly, spend a few minutes per mini making it work. Some of the jacks have a basic paintjob with no shading or highlighting, and some look like a 12 year old painted with the way the colors are put on the model... I mean you're sending this out the door, and someone who doesn't know, might say, "Hey I got this from BTP, it looks okay, but not 800 dollars okay..." I mean that's great that they're taking someone else's models and turning a profit, BTP has it's own second hand market.
Shawn irks me as a person, yes he's very peppy and happy, but at the same time he seems to make snide little one liners to his staff, and occasionally about his staff... If I remember correctly, Ben2 got a weird amount of gak when he started (right around the time I stopped watching BTP's videos).
Idk, I also didn't like the tirades he would go on. Yes, it does get boring when you're talking about politics for 20 minutes when all I want to do is look at the models, but that's a personal thing.
If you support him and BTP, that's your choice, but at the same time, others might like to give information damming him just as much as you're giving information praising him.
I'm not attacking anyone personally, it's just business. Or how I see it. But yes- if under any circumstance (especially at this pay grade) a new hire came to me with a sob story about the last job, or really said anything other than that they felt that their skills and standards were higher value than the current employer could offer... you get the buzzer noise and your resume is kept "on file".
Sometimes when choosing a painting service, I like to ask myself a series of simple questions to help me along:
"Does this company have a name that implies the can put color on things, or does it imply that it will let a bunch of sweaty Greeks into my home?"
"How long have they been producing professional grade work?"
"How many projects have they completed this quarter?"
"Are they Blue Table Painting? Because if not, they better be."
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alfndrate-
How much would YOU charge for that $800 Cryx army right now? Cost for getting the models and putting paint to tabletop standard? About $800? More?
I've also noticed that no one openly displays prices when talking about competition. Sure you say you can do better, but can I get a quote right now? Can I call you right now and talk about how awesome setting up my order is? At any time of the day, any time of the year?"
If you answered anything but No to any of those, you're probably just fooling yourself.
Derr wrote: Alfndrate-
How much would YOU charge for that $800 Cryx army right now? Cost for getting the models and putting paint to tabletop standard? About $800? More?
I've also noticed that no one openly displays prices when talking about competition. Sure you say you can do better, but can I get a quote right now? Can I call you right now and talk about how awesome setting up my order is? At any time of the day, any time of the year?"
If you answered anything but No to any of those, you're probably just fooling yourself.
Retail cost (BTP doesn't spend this much, even if it was a trade-in): 874.68 USD.
I would probably accept 200 dollars cash or 300 in services, and then probably attempt to sell it AS IS for 500 dollars. The description itself even says that it paintjob is kinda of worn. If this was my business, I wouldn't put that descriptor on anything that I or my company didn't touch. If I touched it up, and made it to a certain level, I would probably sell it for 800 dollars. You're telling me that the 63 dollar savings is worth that paint job? Hell, even if I bought them off of miniature market, spent the 12 dollars in glue I might spend, and the 5 bucks of basing material and 3 bucks for elmer's glue, I would still be saving over 100 dollars of Shawn's price.
Selling that army as is for 800 dollars is just as bad as the people that put a 3 color paintjob on ebay and try to sell it as "pro-painted"
And the bit about calling me at anytime of the day or year, you can't even expect to get an answer at 3 in the morning with BTP, so please leave your outrageous claims at the door, and stick to something based in at least a bit of reality...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
catachan1brainleaf wrote: Note on their store .
"Cryx Army Lot 2157 Summary
One lage Cryx army. The paint is worn in some places, but overall the painting is very nice. "
You 100% sure this isn't a trade in ?
It is, someone that cares as much for the reputation of his company as Shaun does, wouldn't put up an army painted by his company and say, "the paint is worn in some places, but overall the painting is very nice."
Bought a batch of used miniatures from BTP. Roughly 40% off retail. Sounded like a fair deal.
No mention in description that parts were missing. Lots of bits were missing. Customer service reply was "you get what you see in the picture" . Their pictures are so small that you can;t tell if small bits are missing. Pictures were taken down as soon as sale was made, so no way to go back and "zoom in" so to speak.
It seems BTP will miss its KS goal by far. I have been observing their KS and it has lost pretty much all its momentum around the time the controversial discussions all around the web began.
I still watch their channel and BTP reacts to some points the EDIT: LANGUAGE StormRiders have been making... well without answering to them directly, rather making it seem they explain stuff at random but you can clearly sense they want things to get straight in their sense. From entire videos dedicated to some issues to little comments here and there.
well, one of the concerns I have had about their ks is the question of what portion of the money will be going to fulfilling their past obligations. They have already made mention that they've had a very difficult time keeping the lights on and keeping people payed. In the past half year people have been complaining that they have put in an order for models and waited a month without the models being purchased. If they are having a cash flow problem with their current operations, there would be a very large temptation to divert funds from the ks to fund projects that they have already committed to, but didn't previously have the cash to fulfill.
I also wondered how they would be selecting the lists that they plan to pre-build. If you think about every codex and every possible permutation of units in every codex, they would need to keep an inordinate amount of inventory on hand in order to quickly fulfill any order - or else it just turns into a custom job as they are quickly painting armies that people place orders for (isn't this already what they are doing?). They mentioned that they would be building the competitive lists that you see at tournaments like nova or adeptacon, but is that all? If you have actually looked at the ultra-competitive lists from those tournaments, you might notice that they are not very fun to play. There's a lot of spam as everything has been minmaxed. I think that the number of people who will want tony kopac's razorspam list might be somewhat limited. Even so, how are they predicting the distribution of demand for any of these ultra-competitive lists? They haven't shown any ability or methodology for this forecasting. What scares me even more is if this does take off. Imagine going into your store and seeing that everybody is fielding these ultra-competitive lists. It might be time to play a different game.
What about fluff lists? Some of the most fun armies to play are the ones that aren't truly effective but are a blast. Now we really come down to the problem of a huge array of stocking options that BTP would need to figure out. Are they going to have a SoB army on hand just in case somebody wanted one? What about a grot army or templars or footdar? Build them all? build some? which ones? how are they doing this selection? If you're going to invest a hundred in this hairbrain idea, you better know beforehand. As somebody who spends quite a bit of his work week in the investing world, this would be my advice.
My other concern is about the quality of the painting for these pre-built armies. BTP has in the past demonstrated a lack of consistency in their painting. Most armies are painted at a 3/5 level, with only a few select special characters receiving the '5' treatment. After looking at the photographs on their website (and I have spent a lot of time looking at them) I have to conclude that the 5's are no better than the lowest tabletop standard of many other commission painters. Often times the 3's are not passable, sometimes they are appalling. And these are models painted for somebody who has already paid their money. These are being done with the knowledge in mind that the customer may return them due to dissatisfaction with the paint job. Think of it as painting with somebody watching over your shoulder. If employees are cranking out a massive numbers of armies at a 3/5 paint job with no customer in mind, I'm sure that the results would be even worse. After all, if you're painting 30 baal predators, what difference does it make if one or two of them have runny paint? But knowing the way my dice roll, I'm sure I'd get one of those runny paint predators if I were to order one.
Finally, I'm worried what the success of their ks would do to the flgs. BTP has already become extremely dominant in the custom painting market, stealing business from many more qualified painters. If BTP is able to steal a large market share of the model sales market, I'm worried this will spell doom for many flgs that provide a place for us to play our game.
In short, there are a lot of problems with their ks, and I have a hard time recommending dropping a cent into it. Unless, of course, you really just want the life-coaching of shawn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ok so I just watched one of BTP's new videos where they discuss the issues of tiny blurry images on their website and a few few other scattered issues. This is a load of crap. Shawn would be better as a used car salesman, or selling amway or something.
He makes some elaborate excuse for the blurry images saying that he's trying to represent the size on my computer screen. How does he know how large my computer screen is? Also, there's a big between low resolution pictures and small size. You can take a picture that doesn't encompass a lot of area by moving the camera closer. You don't have to take a picture of the whole table and the whole office, and then crop out 10 pixels across of models. Yeah I'm exaggerating, but his bs explanation does not make any effort towards explaining why the pictures are so blurry. I'm still convinced that the blurriness is for the purpose of hiding how badly the miniatures are painted.
Also, he goes on about how solo painters are suffering. Yes Shawn, they are suffering because you are stealing their business. If you listen to 40k radio or you go on MWG, Shawn has thought to endorse these people so that you will hear nothing but good things about him. Shawn is good at marketing himself, he's not good at getting models painted well, and apparently he's not very good at operating a business.
The real problem is that most of the commission painters that you see on the internet, the ones that Shawn calls "solo-painters" won't sell you anything that looks like Shawn's lvl 7 or below. But they charge you for the price of Shawn's level 3s. For many commission painters that I have talked to, there is a level of pride in their art - but you aren't paying a premium. This isn't the same thing as a McDonald's/Masa (if you know NYC restaurants) analogy. For both the solo-painter and BTP work, you're still paying the Masa price. But with BTP you're getting a McDonald's hamburger. But with the solo-painter, you're getting world-class omakase.
I like how one of the two guys, belloflostsouls, that are openly telling people to NOT goto btp, is the dude that started this thread asking for opinions on their service, as though he were considering getting some work done by them...
But then takes it off track completely and just does everything he can to slander them
Yes, you have no axe to grind at all..
Thead should have been locked, a long long time ago.
Edit:
Does anybody have any experience with this painting service? They aren't the cheapest by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems that they are very professional/reliable. I'm wondering how good the quality is. To be honest, the pictures on their website are so low resolution that it's very hard to tell what their products look like. Also, a lot of their models look very... splotchy or pasty or chalky - but it's hard to tell because their pictures are very very low res.
They've got some videos on youtube, and some of the models they use in their videos look... not so impressive. The Ultramarines in this video are apparently for sale, but they look like they just went over them with a can of blue spray paint basically:
I kinda get the feeling that they pump out so many models that they might not really be paying attention to what they are doing. They have these different "levels" of painting, and I think that the standard level is level 3. For most of my models, I'd be getting them painted at a 3.
Can I get any opinions from people on this forum about BTP?
Is the original post. Seems innocent and like he doesnt know much about btp, then soon he writes paragraphs about what an evil company they are. What a terrible troll..
Edit #2:
On the subject of BTP themselves.
Should we, the customer, care that shawn made a mistake years ago in regards to tax, even though he's already paid for that mistake both in losing the respect of his peers, and money? God no. Why does that matter when its already been solved?
How he treated previous employees... Sure, it doesnt sound very pretty, but again, was years ago. How he treats his employees now is the only thing that matters to someone getting their models painted by them now. Unless you get a time machine, go back in time to get your stuff painted by the guys there from years ago.
The images on the site before you get your army? Yeah, they're pretty crappy. I remember reading somewhere that you can ask for a video instead, though it cost a few more dollars. Whats a few extra dollars to make sure your army that cost probably 500-1000, is exactly how you want it?
Having spent an incredibly interesting 45 mins reading this, I've reached the following conclusions.
1) I think its crazy to give BTP a penny. This Shawn person sounds about as trustworthy as a bag of weasels on PCP.
2) I have been painting a year, I've painted 35 models give or take. I have often thought I should give a comission painter a go for a few models. But after reading this, I'm glad I started off a year ago. It's been the most amazing learning curve and there's not a squad or model I've not learned something new on or improved on previous work. To the OP....its a journey I would take time and again to have that exhilaration of finishing your first model, then your first squad, and the satisfaction of saying "I painted that myself" is top notch, there's not a person on Dakka who would disagree.
The best advice I have for you is that unless there's an incredibly good reason to not do it, pick your army, flesh it out on paper, get your shopping list together and DIY. You'll be a more fufilled person for it!
3) The OP is more knowledgeable than he let's on lol.
I think this kind of discussion about a major comission service is good. People weigh in on either side with their opinions and sometimes it gets a little hot.
Someone who wants to drop alot of money to get a army painted should know what they are getting into. How are they going to know that without threads like this one?
I say leave it up and let the reader make of it what they will.
Some facts about BTP, don't believe me? perfectly fine.
However remember what Im posting, and see for yourself the next time you look at BTP items.
Tip #1. BTP knows how to operate their camera, don't be fooled in overly blurry or small pictures.
Trust me, they zoom in perfectly for items that are painted by their competent painters.
The rest that are too small or blurry to figure out? Its simple, those are done by their lower tier new introduced painters.
They'll obscure something to look passable, YOUR imagination makes up what you want to see.
Tip #2. BTP does have some competent painters, some are actually talented don't get me wrong.
However, the ratio of work load they have vs what competent painters they have always shows.
The same level paint job, done by different painters will be stark as day and night.
Why? Because a pro painter that knows how to effectively use every stroke, and place the correct layer at the correct spot,
with the correct paint viscosity to where its supposed to flow, can produce a lvl 3 paint job at the same speed as a newly introduced labor painter trying a lvl 1.
While their pro painter's lvl 1 will look every bit superior than their labor painter's lvl 3.
There are no reason to lock this thread, or any threads similar to this.
This thread is asking for an opinion, logic dictates the truth is what the public desires, not some blatant advertisement.
If the opinion echoes BTP to be awful, so be it if its accurate, why should it be silenced if the opinion reflects negatively towards BTP?
As far as I know BTP doesn't pay dakka enough to help silence free speech :3
I have deliberately stepped away from this thread so forum members could air their views without feeling they needed to be willing to engage in a muck slinging contest .i think it`s important the members have somewhere to have their say good or bad regarding BTP esp when they are being asked to hand over their hard earned cash .simply coming on demanding the thread should be shut down helps nobody .if it annoys you that much just step back like i did and let people have their say .or ignore it all together like i do with most of the forum which holds no interest for me ,it would be like me reading the 40k section deciding oh i don't play or like this game these threads are rubbish they should be shut down .
catachan1brainleaf wrote: I have deliberately stepped away from this thread so forum members could air their views without feeling they needed to be willing to engage in a muck slinging contest .i think it`s important the members have somewhere to have their say good or bad regarding BTP esp when they are being asked to hand over their hard earned cash .simply coming on demanding the thread should be shut down helps nobody .if it annoys you that much just step back like i did and let people have their say .or ignore it all together like i do with most of the forum which holds no interest for me ,it would be like me reading the 40k section deciding oh i don't play or like this game these threads are rubbish they should be shut down .
No, thats not what annoys me. People are of course welcome to their views and opinions.
What annoys me is that in the original post, the guy asking the question of how good we think btp is, as though they know nothing of the company, then a few pages later rant about how much of a bad person shawn is, and how terrible btp is... Clearly the OP just used the original post as some kind of troll bait, and got what he wanted, a thread 8 pages long of people arguing about btp.. His inquiry wasnt sincere, it was just designed to troll.. That, imo, is why this thread should be locked.
the guy asking the question of how good we think btp is, as though they know nothing of the company, then a few pages later rant about how much of a bad person shawn is, and how terrible btp is... .
Dragonzord, there is a chance that you may be attempting to derail this thread by flaming me, but I'm not going to engage in a flamewar with you. So I'll just make a few points once, and that's it. I won't be replying to you anymore - and I'm discouraging anybody else from coming to my defense or arguing with Dragonzord on my behalf. I couldn't care less what someone like Dragonzord says or thinks about me, so please don't fight with him, let him say whatever he wants in response to this. The thread that has resulted from my original post is a repository of the truth about BTP. Let's not muck this up by mudslinging.
But the truth is, I had no intentions of starting a thread to bring down BTP. Dragonzord uses the phrase "a few pages later" but you must remember that time is not measured in pages. Even a week after starting the thread, I was still recommending BTP if you were looking for a painting service that excels in professionalism See 9/26:
I don't think BTP lacks anything in the way of professionalism. These guys are top notch in terms of responding to you, organizing your order and having everything shipped back to you in a timely manner.
But within the week from starting the thread, I had been inundated with responses and private messages full of pictures of much better (and cheaper) painting services. By this point, BTP became a painting service that I couldn't recommend based on the quality of their work, but I still admired them for professionalism.
And then the truth came out.
I didn't ask (or know about) the multitude of unhappy employees, or the ethical issues surrounding BTP. In fact, I had actually forgotten about this thread and was surprised to see it pop back up on the forum. Somebody bumped the thread on 10/30 (over a month after the first post) mentioning a comment thread on a news piece on tabletopgamingnews.com. I was appalled at what I read and began to talk about it. Subsequently the comment thread on that news site was locked, and people flooded over here. This had nothing to do with me.
I could not have planned for BTP to launch a kickstarter, or for tabletopgamingnews to write an article on it, or for (numerous) people to blast the painting service on the comment thread, or for those people to stream here. If I had such powers of prognostication, you can be sure I wouldn't be using it to scheme against BTP.
At one point I was looking for a painting service. Had I known about the ethical issues surrounding BTP I would never have considered them. I would like others to be able to make an informed choice if they are looking for a painting service, which is why I hope this thread stays alive. I didn't start or cause the outrage surrounding BTP, Shawn did. If you are looking for a painting service, there are many excellent alternatives at a variety of price points which all - universally - offer higher quality work. Peruse through the first three pages of this thread for names.
Like I said, I won't be offering a rebuttal to Dragonzord's inevitable response. This thread isn't about me, this is about BTP. Dragonzord, if you want to attack me on Dakka Dakka, please start a new thread to do so. Thank you.
7:25 into the video: He admits that their photos are deliberately blurry because he wants you to see what a model looks like from across a table. He then tries to justify not showing a customer the details of their purchase and explains that he wants the photos to look crappy so that a badly painted model can still look better than its badly taken photo.
To quote the BTP guy from 7:25 onwards,
"Our photos are purposely not very good uhm they are meant to show the scrutiny at the proper level. Now what's funny is, you might say, well Shawn why don't you show us you know this HD thing. Well that would actually be better for me, because, uh *inaudible* one, what I usually get back is these models look better in person than on your website. That's what I want. I don't them to look, I don't want what I'm presenting to you on the web to look worse than ... excuse me, I don't want it to look better than what you see when you actually open your package."
Meh. I've never used BTP's services myself, or any other painting service. But BTP is definetly not on my list of options. This entire segment of the video drips with contempt for their customers. They're arguing that if they show you real, accurate photos of their work, it will somehow look better than when you recieve the model. Obfuscating their product is such an alien concept for a trustworthy business.
From a professional standpoint, thats's a load of bollocks. I absolutely want every shot I take to look *exactly* like the products a customer gets. So does every other commission painter worth their salt.
Being Veterans Day, I thought back to several really hair-raising experiences I went through in 15+ years in the USN and I imaged what it would have been like for the BTP guy to have been at my side. Made me laugh and smile.
Also watch my Veterans Day message here if you like:
"Our photos are purposely not very good uhm they are meant to show the scrutiny at the proper level. Now what's funny is, you might say, well Shawn why don't you show us you know this HD thing. Well that would actually be better for me, because, uh *inaudible* one, what I usually get back is these models look better in person than on your website. That's what I want. I don't them to look, I don't want what I'm presenting to you on the web to look worse than ... excuse me, I don't want it to look better than what you see when you actually open your package."
I've been lurking this thread for awhile, but haven't really felt the need to contribute one way or the other. This however..... Wow. Just wow. This quote is absolutely mind boggling. The logic involved is a complete plate of noodles. I suppose it makes sense from a business standpoint, if you have a turd of a product and are trying to pass it off as a "not-turd."
"Our photos are purposely not very good uhm they are meant to show the scrutiny at the proper level. Now what's funny is, you might say, well Shawn why don't you show us you know this HD thing. Well that would actually be better for me, because, uh *inaudible* one, what I usually get back is these models look better in person than on your website. That's what I want. I don't them to look, I don't want what I'm presenting to you on the web to look worse than ... excuse me, I don't want it to look better than what you see when you actually open your package."
I've been lurking this thread for awhile, but haven't really felt the need to contribute one way or the other. This however..... Wow. Just wow. This quote is absolutely mind boggling. The logic involved is a complete plate of noodles. I suppose it makes sense from a business standpoint, if you have a turd of a product and are trying to pass it off as a "not-turd."
Yeah, I couldn't believe it myself. That's why I included the video link, and the timestamp of 7:25 so people can find it. I really didn't expect that.
"Our photos are purposely not very good uhm they are meant to show the scrutiny at the proper level. Now what's funny is, you might say, well Shawn why don't you show us you know this HD thing. Well that would actually be better for me, because, uh *inaudible* one, what I usually get back is these models look better in person than on your website. That's what I want. I don't them to look, I don't want what I'm presenting to you on the web to look worse than ... excuse me, I don't want it to look better than what you see when you actually open your package."
Wow.
Well.
That's the end of me being neutral and giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Thing is he then says go to our facebook we have really nice pictures there .i think looking for any sense in one of Shawn's rambles is a bit of a fools errand .
Damning with faint praise i think is the term for his attitude to to other commission painters .and some of his comments on TGN were more in keeping with Saruman from the bbc radio adaptation of lord of the rings than a sane man .lots of woe is me melodramatic ranting mixed with cheap jibes .i really do think the man now really believes he can spout any ole nonsense and people will buy it .anybody make anything of his ratting levels thing ?
BTP have moved to a 1-10 scale like cmon but insists their level 3 is really like cmon`s level 4-7 ? what that whole scale makes no sense ,just put up good clear pictures of your stuff and people will buy it if the price and look are right for them .i just picked up a nice JVC hd camcorder for less than £160 and BTP cant ? iv always been stunned by just how bad the pictures are on BTP`s site esp given they have somebody who`s job it is just to do that, it even has it`s own section .so yip id say the naff pics are deliberate it`s up to you if you see sense or listen to Shawn`s reasoning .
Tip #1. BTP knows how to operate their camera, don't be fooled in overly blurry or small pictures.
Trust me, they zoom in perfectly for items that are painted by their competent painters.
The rest that are too small or blurry to figure out? Its simple, those are done by their lower tier new introduced painters.
They'll obscure something to look passable, YOUR imagination makes up what you want to see.
7:25 into the video: He admits that their photos are deliberately blurry because he wants you to see what a model looks like from across a table. He then tries to justify not showing a customer the details of their purchase and explains that he wants the photos to look crappy so that a badly painted model can still look better than its badly taken photo.
To quote the BTP guy from 7:25 onwards,
"Our photos are purposely not very good uhm they are meant to show the scrutiny at the proper level. Now what's funny is, you might say, well Shawn why don't you show us you know this HD thing. Well that would actually be better for me, because, uh *inaudible* one, what I usually get back is these models look better in person than on your website. That's what I want. I don't them to look, I don't want what I'm presenting to you on the web to look worse than ... excuse me, I don't want it to look better than what you see when you actually open your package."
I knew it, and this is why BTP is mostly incompetent, and a scammer if I were to be blunt. Also, don't expect that video to stay up long.
This was supposed to be comment towards the video but of course, it doesnt go through
You speak of misrepresenting, you speak of divergence in customer's expectation vs what they actually received.
You know why this happens? Its because you use blurry photos in the first place.
By doing that, the customer is using their imagination to cover the vague obscureness of the photo they are seeing.
Yet this is why you never hear anything but customer praises when you see GMM studios http://www.gmmstudios.com/ or NukeArts studio http://www.facebook.com/nukesarts. They do it so well, that there can be no discrepancy to their photos.
I just watched the video. That's bullcrap, and unprofessional to boot. Purposefully low res? That's like saying your photos are purposefully low res on a dating site because you look better in real life.
I`d say the kickstarter isn't going to reach it`s goal as its been hovering round the 22-24k mark for ages now .iv seen the number of backers drop a little then go right back up but the money change very little .i think people are either pulling out as clearly must have happened here or they are restructuring their pledge levels.it seems a lot of people want the BTP tutorial DVD`s which i cant help but think are going to be awful .It takes a lot of time and effort to make tutorial video`s of any kind as they need to be structured ,concise and clear in what they are trying to convey .not really one of BTP`s strong points ,but hey they may be deliberately awful so whenever you make something half decent after watching them you`l be shocked into thinking they are great .
By the way has anybody sat and watched the trade stock video ? im currently trying to muster the will to sit down and watch it .
RoninXiC wrote: You can always move back from your pledge. That's not something unusual.
It's weird because, as we know from the TTGN thread, this kickstarter is the last chance to save gaming as we know it. Given that we know that, why would people take money away from the campaign unless they WANT wargaming to die?
RoninXiC wrote: You can always move back from your pledge. That's not something unusual.
It's weird because, as we know from the TTGN thread, this kickstarter is the last chance to save gaming as we know it. Given that we know that, why would people take money away from the campaign unless they WANT wargaming to die?
Im not familiar with what TTGN is or what campaign they have... but how is THIS specific starter, BTP starter the last chance to save gaming?
Am I misreading something?
Clearly it`s not ,but that was one of the claims BTP were bandying around in their kickstarter video and a few others .Shawn`s grasp on reality hasn't been the best of late watch any of his long rambles and you`l see what i mean.
There's a 136-comment news post about purely this kickstarter, and it involved BTP staff (and their wives, apparently), one of whom said:
"I really think what we’re doing is helpful to every single gamer in the entire industry, regardless of whether or not they use painting services. ”
When I asked for thsi to be clarified, as I couldn't see how it affected me one iota, the response was as follows (spoilered due to length):
Spoiler:
I spend a lot of time chatting with the owners of most of the bigger miniature gaming companies, and have spent a lot of time with some of the smaller ones. Whether people are privy to it or not, there is a big problem in the miniatures market at the moment. It’s one of the problems that is making games/miniatures cost more and more, and the problem has roots in instant gratification. I don’t think there is a single person who can deny that the new generations are becoming more and more used to instant gratification. Who hasn’t gotten frustrated when their cell phone took 30 seconds longer to load a page than expected, or the computer takes a full minute to boot up instead of 45 seconds. Maybe those examples just don’t apply to you, but the fact of the matter is that they are applying to more and more people. The generation of people who had no problem sitting down for 4 hours is growing old and phasing out.
The people that are now entering the industry, the members of this newer generation have two pretty common characteristics. First, they are more often than not impatient. Second, many of the ones that are patient, have demanding and involved lives that just don’t have much room for painting. In an age where life moves fast, people don’t often have 30-100 hours to sit and paint an army that will look as good on the table top as it did in their minds.
The problem that arises from this is that people who LOVE these games, many, many people, buy the starter boxes and booster packs and everything they think looks cool, and then it sits on their shelf, in “queue”. It sits in their room, it sits in the basement. They want to paint it, they’d absolutely love to paint it, but they never paint it. Sure that’s a problem for only the indicidual in your mind, but if you zoom out a little, and think a little bigger, you see a larger problem. When people buy a box, or ten boxes, for something they love and it sits around in their house, how likely are they to go buy another box. Even if they love the game? It isn’t likely. Then how will the sales go for the game companies that make the games we all like to play? They go down. This is very directly related, among other reasons, to why prices are going up so steadily for miniatures. I can be even more clear on this point, and perhaps give some statistics for anyone who might be interested. However, that prices are rising, I think is generally understood. Look at what a miniature cost 10 years ago when the hobbiest was a thriving part of the community, and you’ll see a difference. A difference that is larger than just inflation. I look at all the statistics, and I see a pattern.
How is this going to help you? Because, there are so many people, and this is the truth, that want our Turbo Armies. We have gotten SO many emails over the last few weeks, months, and years about this topic. People don’t care to paint, and the people who do care, but don’t have time. They still want to play, they can make time for a 45-90 minute game, but the idea of painting is daunting. I grant you that some people love to paint, and good for them! We also love to paint. As we sell Turbo armies, and as other painting companies (who already have expressed to us their interest in copying this if it is successful) we’ll ensure consistent business, at least we hope, for the miniature companies. Truth be told maybe we can’t make a big enough splash, I don’t really know. But we are trying. Someone has to do something before a box of space marines costs two hundred bucks. This is our best idea so far. I really hope even better ideas come along and are acted upon. It’s an idea that many of the largest miniature companies in the world are excited about, and are backing us on.
I hope that sheds some light? If not I will try again. I know what we’re doing is out of an effort to make things better and that many of the most informed people in our industry can see, at least the theory, of what we’re aiming at.
There's a 136-comment news post about purely this kickstarter, and it involved BTP staff (and their wives, apparently), one of whom said:
"I really think what we’re doing is helpful to every single gamer in the entire industry, regardless of whether or not they use painting services. ”
When I asked for thsi to be clarified, as I couldn't see how it affected me one iota, the response was as follows (spoilered due to length):
Spoiler:
I spend a lot of time chatting with the owners of most of the bigger miniature gaming companies, and have spent a lot of time with some of the smaller ones. Whether people are privy to it or not, there is a big problem in the miniatures market at the moment. It’s one of the problems that is making games/miniatures cost more and more, and the problem has roots in instant gratification. I don’t think there is a single person who can deny that the new generations are becoming more and more used to instant gratification. Who hasn’t gotten frustrated when their cell phone took 30 seconds longer to load a page than expected, or the computer takes a full minute to boot up instead of 45 seconds. Maybe those examples just don’t apply to you, but the fact of the matter is that they are applying to more and more people. The generation of people who had no problem sitting down for 4 hours is growing old and phasing out.
The people that are now entering the industry, the members of this newer generation have two pretty common characteristics. First, they are more often than not impatient. Second, many of the ones that are patient, have demanding and involved lives that just don’t have much room for painting. In an age where life moves fast, people don’t often have 30-100 hours to sit and paint an army that will look as good on the table top as it did in their minds.
The problem that arises from this is that people who LOVE these games, many, many people, buy the starter boxes and booster packs and everything they think looks cool, and then it sits on their shelf, in “queue”. It sits in their room, it sits in the basement. They want to paint it, they’d absolutely love to paint it, but they never paint it. Sure that’s a problem for only the indicidual in your mind, but if you zoom out a little, and think a little bigger, you see a larger problem. When people buy a box, or ten boxes, for something they love and it sits around in their house, how likely are they to go buy another box. Even if they love the game? It isn’t likely. Then how will the sales go for the game companies that make the games we all like to play? They go down. This is very directly related, among other reasons, to why prices are going up so steadily for miniatures. I can be even more clear on this point, and perhaps give some statistics for anyone who might be interested. However, that prices are rising, I think is generally understood. Look at what a miniature cost 10 years ago when the hobbiest was a thriving part of the community, and you’ll see a difference. A difference that is larger than just inflation. I look at all the statistics, and I see a pattern.
How is this going to help you? Because, there are so many people, and this is the truth, that want our Turbo Armies. We have gotten SO many emails over the last few weeks, months, and years about this topic. People don’t care to paint, and the people who do care, but don’t have time. They still want to play, they can make time for a 45-90 minute game, but the idea of painting is daunting. I grant you that some people love to paint, and good for them! We also love to paint. As we sell Turbo armies, and as other painting companies (who already have expressed to us their interest in copying this if it is successful) we’ll ensure consistent business, at least we hope, for the miniature companies. Truth be told maybe we can’t make a big enough splash, I don’t really know. But we are trying. Someone has to do something before a box of space marines costs two hundred bucks. This is our best idea so far. I really hope even better ideas come along and are acted upon. It’s an idea that many of the largest miniature companies in the world are excited about, and are backing us on.
I hope that sheds some light? If not I will try again. I know what we’re doing is out of an effort to make things better and that many of the most informed people in our industry can see, at least the theory, of what we’re aiming at.
TL; DR: Kids these days, eh?
Dude, are you a BTP staff? If you are please stop protending to be a random person off the internet. We aall know this BTP kick stater has nothing to do with wargamming in general.
1 it only affects painted minitures
2 it only affect people in america
3 It only affect a small population of people who want their army painted.. and getting BTP to paint their army.
From those 3 points only probably 0.001% of the whole gamming industry is affected. It sure doesn't affect me and for your infomation we all read that 136 comment long thread. its been posted here before few pages ago. Also if you believe that was his wife go ahead.
No harm to BTP and Shawn's overinflated sense of self worth .but if BTP folded tomorrow it would be a tiny blimp on the wargaming scene .the vast majority of gamers wouldn't really notice and the ones who do get commission work done via them would just go to any one of the 1000`s of commission painters out there .you have to admit it`s more likely than BTP saves wargaming from a problem it never had to begin with .
I just watched his stupid video and his lvl 10 cost $5000, one model for $5000? what is wrong with his head?
I don't even think a golden demon winning model cost that much. I have see amazing paint job, definatly golden demon finalist level sold for £150-£250.
His normal models lvl3 looks terriable, If I can earn that much money off a model like that I am set for life, I would be happy to paint his lvl4 or lvl5 models for the same price lol
But in the end this is my opinion so please don't take it as fact.
There's a 136-comment news post about purely this kickstarter, and it involved BTP staff (and their wives, apparently), one of whom said:
"I really think what we’re doing is helpful to every single gamer in the entire industry, regardless of whether or not they use painting services. ”
When I asked for thsi to be clarified, as I couldn't see how it affected me one iota, the response was as follows (spoilered due to length):
Spoiler:
I spend a lot of time chatting with the owners of most of the bigger miniature gaming companies, and have spent a lot of time with some of the smaller ones. Whether people are privy to it or not, there is a big problem in the miniatures market at the moment. It’s one of the problems that is making games/miniatures cost more and more, and the problem has roots in instant gratification. I don’t think there is a single person who can deny that the new generations are becoming more and more used to instant gratification. Who hasn’t gotten frustrated when their cell phone took 30 seconds longer to load a page than expected, or the computer takes a full minute to boot up instead of 45 seconds. Maybe those examples just don’t apply to you, but the fact of the matter is that they are applying to more and more people. The generation of people who had no problem sitting down for 4 hours is growing old and phasing out.
The people that are now entering the industry, the members of this newer generation have two pretty common characteristics. First, they are more often than not impatient. Second, many of the ones that are patient, have demanding and involved lives that just don’t have much room for painting. In an age where life moves fast, people don’t often have 30-100 hours to sit and paint an army that will look as good on the table top as it did in their minds.
The problem that arises from this is that people who LOVE these games, many, many people, buy the starter boxes and booster packs and everything they think looks cool, and then it sits on their shelf, in “queue”. It sits in their room, it sits in the basement. They want to paint it, they’d absolutely love to paint it, but they never paint it. Sure that’s a problem for only the indicidual in your mind, but if you zoom out a little, and think a little bigger, you see a larger problem. When people buy a box, or ten boxes, for something they love and it sits around in their house, how likely are they to go buy another box. Even if they love the game? It isn’t likely. Then how will the sales go for the game companies that make the games we all like to play? They go down. This is very directly related, among other reasons, to why prices are going up so steadily for miniatures. I can be even more clear on this point, and perhaps give some statistics for anyone who might be interested. However, that prices are rising, I think is generally understood. Look at what a miniature cost 10 years ago when the hobbiest was a thriving part of the community, and you’ll see a difference. A difference that is larger than just inflation. I look at all the statistics, and I see a pattern.
How is this going to help you? Because, there are so many people, and this is the truth, that want our Turbo Armies. We have gotten SO many emails over the last few weeks, months, and years about this topic. People don’t care to paint, and the people who do care, but don’t have time. They still want to play, they can make time for a 45-90 minute game, but the idea of painting is daunting. I grant you that some people love to paint, and good for them! We also love to paint. As we sell Turbo armies, and as other painting companies (who already have expressed to us their interest in copying this if it is successful) we’ll ensure consistent business, at least we hope, for the miniature companies. Truth be told maybe we can’t make a big enough splash, I don’t really know. But we are trying. Someone has to do something before a box of space marines costs two hundred bucks. This is our best idea so far. I really hope even better ideas come along and are acted upon. It’s an idea that many of the largest miniature companies in the world are excited about, and are backing us on.
I hope that sheds some light? If not I will try again. I know what we’re doing is out of an effort to make things better and that many of the most informed people in our industry can see, at least the theory, of what we’re aiming at.
TL; DR: Kids these days, eh?
Dude, are you a BTP staff? If you are please stop protending to be a random person off the internet. We aall know this BTP kick stater has nothing to do with wargamming in general.
1 it only affects painted minitures
2 it only affect people in america
3 It only affect a small population of people who want their army painted.. and getting BTP to paint their army.
From those 3 points only probably 0.001% of the whole gamming industry is affected. It sure doesn't affect me and for your infomation we all read that 136 comment long thread. its been posted here before few pages ago. Also if you believe that was his wife go ahead.
I think you've misread. I'm not staff, not claiming to be, not even in that country. I was being sarcastic when I said the industry was doomed. Should have used smileys I guess. I don't suggest anybody read that thread if they don't want to, but I linked to TTGN so anybody concerned was chek I wasn't making up the (ridiculous) comment.
Marthike wrote:Dude, are you a BTP staff? If you are please stop protending to be a random person off the internet. We aall know this BTP kick stater has nothing to do with wargamming in general.
Are you talking to the person that was quoted in the spoiler? The person that the poster there made clear was affiliated with BTP?
Welcome to Gately compound .ever wounder what the BTP life mentoring session would be like ? well picture a week long session of this scary isn't it .I`m waiting to see the ATF raiding Valhalla on the news .
I have to admit it's kind of sad that Shawn seems so fixated on expansion and saving the industry from... what?
Even if he can be more efficient than soloists, which I don't see happening atm, and having multiple artists/assemblers make one army what will happen is a lack of creativity and artistry, based on the lowest common denominator of those artist's ability (for consistency).
What's more likely (and I hope) will happen is that collectors become more refined in their taste, and start to seek out different styles/schools and certain artists come into demand. Just like the normal art world, art 'factories' don't exist for the most part and if they do it is for the lowest common denominator, the good stuff is made by individuals or small studios.
The costs of capital (airbrush + paints? camera and computer? it's nothing) are not that great to make economies of scale important with miniatures painting. If anything it is more efficient for a soloist to paint at home and not to have to pay for rent, bosses, phones everywhere. Also, ebay and other electronic means of establishing reputation and ensuring security means that all but the most gullible won't get scammed, just like with anything else.
Marthike wrote: I just watched his stupid video and his lvl 10 cost $5000, one model for $5000? what is wrong with his head?
I don't even think a golden demon winning model cost that much. I have see amazing paint job, definatly golden demon finalist level sold for £150-£250.
His normal models lvl3 looks terriable, If I can earn that much money off a model like that I am set for life, I would be happy to paint his lvl4 or lvl5 models for the same price lol
But in the end this is my opinion so please don't take it as fact.
Just to defend this; a repeat job of the titan diorama I just did (pretty much identical in every respect) would run to around £5,000 including the cost of the models. It was four months solid work (around 450 hours). Edit: Not including the 6 months of back and forth waiting for decent enough parts to proceed efficiently. Pounds, not dollars. Could be done on a much lower budget and look *similar*, but certainly not the same.
Edit2: Conversely, GD finalist level -squads- I can churn out for around £150. Got a pin this year which I wasn't expecting just off a squad of BA.
Edit3: I'll repeat; not providing good quality photos of work is like writing your CV in crayon if you're a commission painter.
I'm almost tempted to start a "not providing good quality photos of work is like ______" fill in the blank contest. But there have already been some great submissions.
Marthike wrote: I just watched his stupid video and his lvl 10 cost $5000, one model for $5000? what is wrong with his head?
I don't even think a golden demon winning model cost that much. I have see amazing paint job, definatly golden demon finalist level sold for £150-£250.
His normal models lvl3 looks terriable, If I can earn that much money off a model like that I am set for life, I would be happy to paint his lvl4 or lvl5 models for the same price lol
But in the end this is my opinion so please don't take it as fact.
Just to defend this; a repeat job of the titan diorama I just did (pretty much identical in every respect) would run to around £5,000 including the cost of the models. It was four months solid work (around 450 hours). Edit: Not including the 6 months of back and forth waiting for decent enough parts to proceed efficiently. Pounds, not dollars. Could be done on a much lower budget and look *similar*, but certainly not the same.
Edit2: Conversely, GD finalist level -squads- I can churn out for around £150. Got a pin this year which I wasn't expecting just off a squad of BA.
Edit3: I'll repeat; not providing good quality photos of work is like writing your CV in crayon if you're a commission painter.
Thats implying BTP have the capacity to produce a lvl 10.
You sure have a lot of faith in them xD
Thats implying BTP have the capacity to produce a lvl 10.
You sure have a lot of faith in them xD
The vast majority of the work BTP is commissioned to do is 3/5 and sometimes 4/6. Once in a blue moon they get a 5/7, and they will almost always make a video out of that. Asking BTP to do a 10 is like paying employees at McDonald's to cook lobster for you. It's not what they do and there are better places to go for quality work like that - esp if you are planning on spending that sort of money. Much better places.
Thats implying BTP have the capacity to produce a lvl 10.
You sure have a lot of faith in them xD
The vast majority of the work BTP is commissioned to do is 3/5 and sometimes 4/6. Once in a blue moon they get a 5/7, and they will almost always make a video out of that. Asking BTP to do a 10 is like paying employees at McDonald's to cook lobster for you. It's not what they do and there are better places to go for quality work like that - esp if you are planning on spending that sort of money. Much better places.
Lvl 10, not a chance right now. With the current batch of painters they are pushing it to get a quality lvl 5. Cameron was the best painter they had in the last couple years and he was the only one that could do a lvl 7.
Maybe by offering a 10, they would mean commissioning a slayer/gd winner then reselling it at a profit. It's the only way they could produce it I can think of.
Ifalna wrote: Maybe by offering a 10, they would mean commissioning a slayer/gd winner then reselling it at a profit. It's the only way they could produce it I can think of.
Terrible. Yet, I wouldn't put it past BTP to do that.
Ifalna wrote:Maybe by offering a 10, they would mean commissioning a slayer/gd winner then reselling it at a profit. It's the only way they could produce it I can think of.
That was a good one.
But you would have to take their word for it when you paid "five to ten thousand dollars" for that level 10, since you would not be able to tell from the "purposely not very good" photos.
They had a half decent reputation for turning out decentish TT standard, but that seems to be in tatters these days. Not heard much good about them in the last year or so.
to be honest, winter, here in the states (or at least among my crew in Cali) BTP's reputation was originally for fast and cheap turnaround on dipped armies...
i've followed their work since 2004-ish...
the photos used to be very crisp, but this just highlighted the obvious dipping process, which some people poo-pooed...
this could be the reason why they decided to go with less revealing photos...
funny enough, around 2006 i was talking with Shawn about coming to work for him...
at that point my CV read: Golden Demon winner, Crocodile Games and Privateer Press studio painter...
unfortunately, he had a long list of rules for his painters, such as no smokers allowed...
being a smoker, i said thanks but no thanks...
looks like i dodged a bullet...
as for pricing, it's all relative...
some people would not pay $5 for someone to paint their minis, because they want the pride of knowing they paint their own armies...
others are collectors of fine art, and are willing to pay any cost...
personally, i have worked very hard, over ten years, to get my price up from $35 to $350 for a single man-sized mini...
plenty of people have told me my prices are too high, bordering on ridiculous, yet i'm still in business and have never had a complaint about the finished product...
if there are enough happy BTP customers coming back for repeat business, and sending their friends along too, then BTP will survive...
if Shawn ends up shotting himself in the foot with his own wackiness, that's on him...
responding to criticism with humility and grace always goes over better than a mad rant, or a dodgy justification...
we can all learn a good lesson about how not to act from both sides of the argument in this thread...
Im just an average joe iv no reason try and impress people on here or worry about what they think off me .Im just a gamer who`s sick of youtube and gaming in general becoming full of ego`s and money grabbers .And self appointed experts who barely play two different wargames acting like they know it all just to get freebee`s .Yes wargaming has it`s problems ,just not the ones BTP are claiming but at least they don't have the hand out to the tune of $40.000 like BTP .if Iv offended anybody then im sorry but i didn't realize it was a popularity contest .versus what BTP are at i think being a bit of an ejit is a small time matter .
BTP posted this in the Kickstarter comments 4 hours ago:
"We had some old employees go onto a lot of forums and say some pretty negative stuff, which hampered the momentum a lot. We have actually increased 1-4 pledgers every day, but a lot of the people who had high pledges in the 1-3,000 range have switched down. We would have passed our goal long ago if everything had stayed, but it just means we'll need to find more people! We'll just have to see what happens!"
I guess he does not think that people will bother to go to kicktraq.com and look for themselves. Check it out. The stats are very detailed and do not reflect what he said.
BTP posted this in the Kickstarter comments 4 hours ago:
"We had some old employees go onto a lot of forums and say some pretty negative stuff, which hampered the momentum a lot. We have actually increased 1-4 pledgers every day, but a lot of the people who had high pledges in the 1-3,000 range have switched down. We would have passed our goal long ago if everything had stayed, but it just means we'll need to find more people! We'll just have to see what happens!"
I guess he does not think that people will bother to go to kicktraq.com and look for themselves. Check it out. The stats are very detailed and do not reflect what he said.
Either way, it's somewhat rude to be cheering the stumbling of a Kickstarter. That's the point of crowd-funding. If there is no interest, then this is a very low-cost way of finding out.
Either way, it's somewhat rude to be cheering the stumbling of a Kickstarter. That's the point of crowd-funding. If there is no interest, then this is a very low-cost way of finding out.
The guy steps all over his employees and solo painters in order to get a leg up, all the while spouting how great he is.
Well, we've got a peek now and I for one am not going to ignore the man behind the curtain.
He has caused me harm in more ways than one and I am not going to apologize for not turning the other cheek.
And by train wreck I was not referring to the Kickstarter.
Ok so perusing through all of the thread... which I really did not want to - I now come up to this. ]
I sent out two models that I wanted painted for Christmas (two D&D models (reaper mini's) that my wife and I used in the first D&D game we have ever played) to BTP. Now I got a little higher level of a paint job because I am scratchbuilding a scenery background for the two models (using the extra bases as spots where they would go) to build this really cute scene of our first encounter together.
Now what I got out of this thread was two things
1) Shawn is cheery but unlikable and has a dark side 2) the paint job?
The problem is that you guys have spent to much time arguing about Shawn and not enough about the paint job. So my question to you all would be this SIMPLE question:
If I payed for a higher level service for those two miniatures (lets say for arguments sake level 5-6), will they come out well or have I wasted my money? By the way I recently sent out the package, so an immediate response would be best as then I can figure out whether to cancel the order or not.
BTP posted this in the Kickstarter comments 4 hours ago:
"We had some old employees go onto a lot of forums and say some pretty negative stuff, which hampered the momentum a lot. We have actually increased 1-4 pledgers every day, but a lot of the people who had high pledges in the 1-3,000 range have switched down. We would have passed our goal long ago if everything had stayed, but it just means we'll need to find more people! We'll just have to see what happens!"
You notice he said "negative stuff" NOT "untrue" or lies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
fidel wrote: Ok so perusing through all of the thread... which I really did not want to - I now come up to this. ]
I sent out two models that I wanted painted for Christmas (two D&D models (reaper mini's) that my wife and I used in the first D&D game we have ever played) to BTP. Now I got a little higher level of a paint job because I am scratchbuilding a scenery background for the two models (using the extra bases as spots where they would go) to build this really cute scene of our first encounter together.
Now what I got out of this thread was two things
1) Shawn is cheery but unlikable and has a dark side
2) the paint job?
The problem is that you guys have spent to much time arguing about Shawn and not enough about the paint job. So my question to you all would be this SIMPLE question:
If I payed for a higher level service for those two miniatures (lets say for arguments sake level 5-6), will they come out well or have I wasted my money? By the way I recently sent out the package, so an immediate response would be best as then I can figure out whether to cancel the order or not.
If you paid for a lvl 6, they will probably come out OK, though they don't have the painting talent they had a few months ago. Keep in mind, the artists are only getting paid less than 30% of your cost, at $11 an hour.
IMPORTANT!: If the pics are bad, request better ones. If you're not happy with the paint jobs, COMPLAIN! Shawn will normally do what it takes to make you happy, EXCEPT refund your money. He has a personal policy to NEVER return money.
fidel wrote: Ok so perusing through all of the thread... which I really did not want to - I now come up to this. ]
I sent out two models that I wanted painted for Christmas (two D&D models (reaper mini's) that my wife and I used in the first D&D game we have ever played) to BTP. Now I got a little higher level of a paint job because I am scratchbuilding a scenery background for the two models (using the extra bases as spots where they would go) to build this really cute scene of our first encounter together.
Now what I got out of this thread was two things
1) Shawn is cheery but unlikable and has a dark side
2) the paint job?
The problem is that you guys have spent to much time arguing about Shawn and not enough about the paint job. So my question to you all would be this SIMPLE question:
If I payed for a higher level service for those two miniatures (lets say for arguments sake level 5-6), will they come out well or have I wasted my money? By the way I recently sent out the package, so an immediate response would be best as then I can figure out whether to cancel the order or not.
In my opinion you would've been better off sending them to other painting services who will give you equal or better quality for a fraction of the price BTP's asking. As a consumer, you have better options. But I'm hazarding a guess that your minis will turn out fine, it's just that you can achieve it for a cheaper price.
fidel wrote: If I payed for a higher level service for those two miniatures (lets say for arguments sake level 5-6), will they come out well or have I wasted my money? By the way I recently sent out the package, so an immediate response would be best as then I can figure out whether to cancel the order or not.
I have not commented specifically about BTP's painting quality because so much depends on to whom the figures are assigned. They have also had alot of turnover, so chances are not as good as they were six months ago that your figures will be painted by an experienced, talented painter.
I also have not commented specifically about quality because it is hard to do so without seeming to pick on the painters, which I do not want to do. They are young and inexperienced and that is that and not their fault.
I can tell you this, however. I am going to say that for Reaper foot figures that you supplied - so no charge for figures or assembly - at painting level 5/6 you probably paid about $35 each. At that price the artist gets 1/3 or say $12 and gets paid $11/hour. So they can only spend about one hour on each figure.
I think you can determine, if those numbers are close, what your miniatures will end up looking like.
I can tell you that if I only had one hour to spend on a Reaper miniature, of which I have painted hundreds, they would end up looking like I spent an hour on them . . . like crap, in other words.
BTP posted this in the Kickstarter comments 4 hours ago:
"We had some old employees go onto a lot of forums and say some pretty negative stuff, which hampered the momentum a lot. We have actually increased 1-4 pledgers every day, but a lot of the people who had high pledges in the 1-3,000 range have switched down. We would have passed our goal long ago if everything had stayed, but it just means we'll need to find more people! We'll just have to see what happens!"
You notice he said "negative stuff" NOT "untrue" or lies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
fidel wrote: Ok so perusing through all of the thread... which I really did not want to - I now come up to this. ]
I sent out two models that I wanted painted for Christmas (two D&D models (reaper mini's) that my wife and I used in the first D&D game we have ever played) to BTP. Now I got a little higher level of a paint job because I am scratchbuilding a scenery background for the two models (using the extra bases as spots where they would go) to build this really cute scene of our first encounter together.
Now what I got out of this thread was two things
1) Shawn is cheery but unlikable and has a dark side 2) the paint job?
The problem is that you guys have spent to much time arguing about Shawn and not enough about the paint job. So my question to you all would be this SIMPLE question:
If I payed for a higher level service for those two miniatures (lets say for arguments sake level 5-6), will they come out well or have I wasted my money? By the way I recently sent out the package, so an immediate response would be best as then I can figure out whether to cancel the order or not.
If you paid for a lvl 6, they will probably come out OK, though they don't have the painting talent they had a few months ago. Keep in mind, the artists are only getting paid less than 30% of your cost, at $11 an hour. IMPORTANT!: If the pics are bad, request better ones. If you're not happy with the paint jobs, COMPLAIN! Shawn will normally do what it takes to make you happy, EXCEPT refund your money. He has a personal policy to NEVER return money.
Ok now you see that worries me. Since this gift is supposed to be a personal gift between me and her. At level 6 I would be hoping that they would be... exactly what a level 6 out of 7 levels would be - character display model that would be great to look at and be an awesome little display for the home commemorating a really cool date we had (some of ya'll have noooooo idea how hard it was to make a non-geek to go to a D&D thing).
So I am left with a dilemma:
1) If more people respond to my question above I will have them paint it, as level 6 should be a level 6. 2) I send an email as quickly as possible telling him to resend my package immediately when he receives it and cancel the commission. Please respond quickly as I sent it out yesterday
fidel wrote: If I payed for a higher level service for those two miniatures (lets say for arguments sake level 5-6), will they come out well or have I wasted my money? By the way I recently sent out the package, so an immediate response would be best as then I can figure out whether to cancel the order or not.
I have not commented specifically about BTP's painting quality because so much depends on to whom the figures are assigned. They have also had alot of turnover, so chances are not as good as they were six months ago that your figures will be painted by an experienced, talented painter.
I also have not commented specifically about quality because it is hard to do so without seeming to pick on the painters, which I do not want to do. They are young and inexperienced and that is that and not their fault.
I can tell you this, however. I am going to say that for Reaper foot figures that you supplied - so no charge for figures or assembly - at painting level 5/6 you probably paid about $35 each. At that price the artist gets 1/3 or say $12 and gets paid $11/hour. So they can only spend about one hour on each figure.
I think you can determine, if those numbers are close, what your miniatures will end up looking like.
I can tell you that if I only had one hour to spend on a Reaper miniature, of which I have painted hundreds, they would end up looking like I spent an hour on them . . . like crap, in other words.
Those are the facts as I know them.
Hope that helps.
Before I send the email - I would like to hear a bit more from people who have had their figures painted on a higher level from BTP. Thank you though for your input as it does shed light into some of the - worries - I have the commission.
I will update on my project. As it goes though now I am somewhat peeved the gift will not be ready for christmas as I originally hoped. Nuke Arts seems like a great commission artist so I will see if I can get in contact with him if this commission does not go through.
So... please if people can chime in about the PAINT JOBS on the higher level miniatures so I can finalize my decision. Thank you.
Ok now you see that worries me. Since this gift is supposed to be a personal gift between me and her. At level 6 I would be hoping that they would be... exactly what a level 6 out of 7 levels would be - character display model that would be great to look at and be an awesome little display for the home commemorating a really cool date we had (some of ya'll have noooooo idea how hard it was to make a non-geek to go to a D&D thing).
So I am left with a dilemma:
1) If more people respond to my question above I will have them paint it, as level 6 should be a level 6.
2) I send an email as quickly as possible telling him to resend my package immediately when he receives it and cancel the commission. Please respond quickly as I sent it out yesterday
I would recommend option 2, since this project is so important to you. If Shawn refuses to refund your money at this point I'm sure we'd all be very interested to hear about it.
Ok now you see that worries me. Since this gift is supposed to be a personal gift between me and her. At level 6 I would be hoping that they would be... exactly what a level 6 out of 7 levels would be - character display model that would be great to look at and be an awesome little display for the home commemorating a really cool date we had (some of ya'll have noooooo idea how hard it was to make a non-geek to go to a D&D thing).
So I am left with a dilemma:
1) If more people respond to my question above I will have them paint it, as level 6 should be a level 6.
2) I send an email as quickly as possible telling him to resend my package immediately when he receives it and cancel the commission. Please respond quickly as I sent it out yesterday
I would recommend option 2, since this project is so important to you. If Shawn refuses to refund your money at this point I'm sure we'd all be very interested to hear about it.
Welp email sent. It went something like this:
Hello Shawn,
My name is [redacted], and I am emailing you to indicate that I am canceling my commission that involved the Reaper Miniatures. I sent out the package yesterday, however, being that you have not received it, I am giving you notice that the package/commission will be cancelled. Upon arrival of package, please resend back to the return address [redacted]. I would also like to be notified on the arrival date of said package, and date that package will be returned.
Thank you and enjoy your week,
[redacted]
I would like to at least express gratitude on you Dakkites part of at least saving me the trouble and stress of losing/not having something done to my satisfaction on something that means a lot to me. I will keep you updated.
I guess this gift will have to wait sadly. I primarily wanted Ilfana to do it (I LOVE her work), but NukeArts seems to be a very good commissioner as well. If anyone can give me a short blurb on either of those two commissioners it would be much appreciated. Hell, maybe I still have time to have it as a christmas present if I explain my story and they fall in love with it... sympathy/romanticism points?
This was a lvl 7 done as an example to the other artists by the best artist at BTP a few months ago. I would not expect near that lvl now. That should give you some idea of what to expect.
http://www.bluetablepainting.com/view_image.php?imgID=117759
Edit: I'm not being constructive so I'm just going to leave it and go to bed. Fidel, just saw what you wrote now. I wish I could help out but I am totally booked till new year :( If I took them on for you I would end up making other people wait or not be able to get them done in time so I have to try and be logical about it :( Nuke is freaking awesome though, deffo worth contacting them.
Not sure on current price, they pulled the online spreadsheets, but it would have been over $50. The artist would have made around $16.
Oh come on. Come on. Jesus I am slow to anger but this kind of thing really enrages me.
That fig isn't even to what I consider tabletop standard. Yes yes, they put a fancy glow effect with a quick airbrush spray but thats only to try and mask the fact that the mini itself has no highlights, no blending, no contrast, no blacklining, and has been coloured with some drybrushing. That's fine for a €3 fig. I wouldn't even charge €3 for that or I would feel like I was ripping off the customer.
God I am so angry. I've never gotten angry on Dakka before.
Time to make myself "famous" and start charging $50 for gak.
Sorry to piss ya off, but those are the facts. Oh, no airbrush was used though, BTP doesn't use airbrushes except on a rare occasion by customer request.
There are no airbrush used Ifalna, that is brought to you by the magic of.... blurry photography ( still to be determined whether it comes with the how to paint DVD combo )
Most noticeably the dark red area by the power generator on sword, just before the blur, and the tip of the sword, more blurr, but still noticeable )
LunaHound wrote: There are no airbrush used Ifalna, that is brought to you by the magic of.... blurry photography ( still to be determined whether it comes with the how to paint DVD combo )
Most noticeably the dark red area by the power generator on sword, just before the blur, and the tip of the sword, more blurr, but still noticeable )
Eagle Eyes xD
Hey Luna, are you an ex or current BTP employee? Sorry if I missed it elsewhere.
LunaHound wrote: There are no airbrush used Ifalna, that is brought to you by the magic of.... blurry photography ( still to be determined whether it comes with the how to paint DVD combo )
Most noticeably the dark red area by the power generator on sword, just before the blur, and the tip of the sword, more blurr, but still noticeable )
Eagle Eyes xD
Hey Luna, are you an ex or current BTP employee? Sorry if I missed it elsewhere.
No! Im owned by no one... ok other than who I owe credit card payment to ;_;
Im just so tired of people asking me to commission , and when I ask them to provide visual samples, they show me BTP.
Which is actually good for me... higher price for lower quality.
But honestly, even I feel bad accepting that type of payment
Reminds me of a used car salesman who casually leans against a car while trying to sell it to customer. Of course, he's leaning on the part of the car that has a big dent or scratch, to hide it. Hehe.
