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Post by: Daedricbob
It seems a bit odd that in this modern age GW don't have a community rep that liaises with the main wargaming websites/publications.
Such a position would allow them to provide official rulings on rule interpretations/questions as well as providing 'sneak peeks' of upcoming products, promoting offers, gaining valuable product/design feedback and I feel would go a long way to promoting general goodwill within the gaming community, the people that buy their products.
I honestly can't understand why they don't have anyone doing this, they don't even have their own forums.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Because they don't care much about any of those things. They used to do sneak peaks and take people's Q&As and have their own forum. They scrapped it all because they know most of their profit comes from customers new to the hobby and who only stay a short time. We online just don't matter and sneak leaks and the like don't interest GW who want to out everything through their magazine and make people pay for it. Just giving it away? Madness.
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Post by: daedalus
And more importantly, look at the community. It's not healthy to subject people to that kind of abuse. I mean, probably the only thing worse to the human psyche would be to have to be one of those guys who does the offensive crap filter for google or something.
You guys are a lot more vicious than you realize, I think sometimes.
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Post by: darefsky (Flight Medic Paints)
GW is what it is. PP has pressgangers all over and they have employees that interact on their boards as well.
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Post by: Peregrine
Because GW's management is a bunch of incompetent idiots who are afraid to do anything that might in any way change the current "successful" model and damage their investment before they can loot the company and retire. In their opinion it's better to settle for stagnant sales and hope to keep the company "profitable" for a few more years through unsustainable price increases than to risk losing money by expanding the company.
A properly-run company would understand that even when they're making lots of money off kids who whine until their parents buy them a box of space marines and then forget about it within a week there's still a lot of profit to be made from older players who value things like community interaction, previews, etc. The result would be something like MTG where there is a major marketing campaign before each set is released with previews, articles about the design, etc. Meanwhile their "blog" would consist of real information about the game instead of just pictures of models and links to buy them, there would be a legitimate effort to support third-party sites (including giving them previews to write about), and a general recognition that the internet is important and the community-building aspect of it is vital to having a successful business.
Conclusion: the sooner GW dies and gets bought by WOTC the better.
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Post by: Monster Rain
 Peregrine wrote:Because GW's management is a bunch of incompetent idiots who are afraid to do anything that might in any way change the current "successful" model and damage their investment before they can loot the company and retire. In their opinion it's better to settle for stagnant sales and hope to keep the company "profitable" for a few more years through unsustainable price increases than to risk losing money by expanding the company.
A properly-run company would understand that even when they're making lots of money off kids who whine until their parents buy them a box of space marines and then forget about it within a week there's still a lot of profit to be made from older players who value things like community interaction, previews, etc. The result would be something like MTG where there is a major marketing campaign before each set is released with previews, articles about the design, etc. Meanwhile their "blog" would consist of real information about the game instead of just pictures of models and links to buy them, there would be a legitimate effort to support third-party sites (including giving them previews to write about), and a general recognition that the internet is important and the community-building aspect of it is vital to having a successful business.
Conclusion: the sooner GW dies and gets bought by WOTC the better.
This is why, OP.
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Post by: daedalus
daedalus wrote:And more importantly, look at the community. It's not healthy to subject people to that kind of abuse. I mean, probably the only thing worse to the human psyche would be to have to be one of those guys who does the offensive crap filter for google or something.
You guys are a lot more vicious than you realize, I think sometimes.
Peregrine wrote:Because GW's management is a bunch of incompetent idiots who are afraid to do anything that might in...
Ahh, there it is: my moment of zen.
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Post by: ironicsilence
 darefsky wrote:GW is what it is. PP has pressgangers all over and they have employees that interact on their boards as well.
PP has pressgangers because they dont have stores. I've PP had its own chain of stores then I'd bet the press gangers would go the way of rogue traders..
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Post by: lucasbuffalo
Peregrine wrote:
Conclusion: the sooner GW dies and gets bought by WOTC the better.
Ahhh, if only. I would probably cry from all the joy.
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Post by: carmachu
 Daedricbob wrote:It seems a bit odd that in this modern age GW don't have a community rep that liaises with the main wargaming websites/publications.
Such a position would allow them to provide official rulings on rule interpretations/questions as well as providing 'sneak peeks' of upcoming products, promoting offers, gaining valuable product/design feedback and I feel would go a long way to promoting general goodwill within the gaming community, the people that buy their products.
I honestly can't understand why they don't have anyone doing this, they don't even have their own forums.
Because GW doesnt care about you or your communities. Only the new player. Automatically Appended Next Post:  ironicsilence wrote:
PP has pressgangers because they dont have stores. I've PP had its own chain of stores then I'd bet the press gangers would go the way of rogue traders..
perhaps. But GW had outriders for a long time when they had stores as well.
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Post by: Cruentus
As Carmachu said, GW had a forum, outriders, answered faq questions via email, etc. All the same things that smaller companies do (PP, etc). They stopped doing them. It wasn't worth the time, headache, and investment (salary, forums, IT, whatever) to keep doing it, especially considering what GWs forum became. I don't blame them.
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Post by: vedreag
 Cruentus wrote: It wasn't worth the time, headache, and investment (salary, forums, IT, whatever) to keep doing it, especially c onsidering what GWs forum became. I don't blame them.
I'm almost afraid to ask, but what did the GW forums turn into?
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Post by: Monster Rain
EDIT: It was funny but not a good idea.
Never mind.
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Post by: WarOne
There will be a day when GW will have to account to the public, but that is not a day long coming when they continue to be successful and their IP strong.
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Post by: Rainbow Dash
I honestly don't think GW has this seething dislike for most as many feel, I honestly get the impression they don't realize, or don't want to realize that they have competition. I think they feel that they can keep going this way and that their brand name will carry them threw despite things like the internet and such.
I don't like GW as a company very much, but I don't buy new from them, rarely play their games (rules for which I don't buy) the only money they get from me is paints, which are usually bought at a local store anyways
I was loyal to them at one point, but they priced me out and moved in directions I disliked, so I moved on. Things change and I don't think they are malicious, just ill-informed
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Post by: BunkerBob
With the rather dismal failure of fantasy warhammer, and the rather pathetic launch of the hobbit. I wonder how good they actually are
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
They had someone come in a small while ago, they were QUICKLY ran off by the likes of this community with heavy vitriol, some of which is posting in this thread now.
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Post by: Kanluwen
carmachu wrote:
ironicsilence wrote:
PP has pressgangers because they dont have stores. I've PP had its own chain of stores then I'd bet the press gangers would go the way of rogue traders..
perhaps. But GW had outriders for a long time when they had stores as well.
To be fair, GW having Outriders and stores was not a mutually exclusive thing. I think that there are more independent shops than "official" GW shops and having the Outriders was a good thing for that.
Personally I was not impressed with the Outrider who was "in charge" of my area.
Zebio: That person is not gone. He still is here, and in fact became a DCM in response to the fact that people were accusing him of "spamming" the forum with the job postings he was putting up.
It is important to remember though that he is here to post jobs; not directly push for change from within the company.
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Post by: darefsky (Flight Medic Paints)
I think it's more of a build up of anamosity towards GW. They are so very much "behind closed doors" in their desicion making that when people get the chance to interact with them it all comes out.
Personally I don't care anymore, I parted ways with GW and don't miss it. I don't think GW is willing to put the time and effort (as in Money) to reach out and make good meaningful contact with the customer base. Business hasn't been affected as much as one might think if there earnings statements are true so why go against the best evidence a company had to the contray and make a change? If and when the dividends smart to shirink dramatically, we will probably see a change in behavior. Before that not so much.
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Post by: SurfPenguin
OP, let me ask you a simple question: If you were running a company, would you want a phone line where, no matter when you picked it up any hour of the day you got nothing other than an endless string of insults, obscenities, and screaming demands that you essentially give your product away for free?
You wouldn't? 
Well, now you know why GW doesn't have a community representative.
Seriously, if 'the community' wants GW to listen to them, then said 'community' had better start saying something other than "You stupid  who don't know we don't give a damn about your wellbeing as a company, give us everything we want, right now, for free!"
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Post by: Rainbow Dash
I dont want everything for free, but I would like at least prices somewhat ground in reality
example- lotr when it began, was very affordable and a great buy, now, 12 for 35 dollars vs 24 for 25 dollars...
50 dollars for a codex (60 for the chaos ones)
my D&D books cost less then 40 each, and have a much longer life ahead of them
I am not asking for things to be given to me, just a little bit more reasonable
miniatures are not worth what they charge,
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Post by: OverwatchCNC
Trolls.
Seriously, that's why.
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Post by: mattyrm
Just sit and read the hate and rage on this board, there is your answer!
The poor fether who worked for GW in that role would get more abuse than a registered sex offender with leprosy.
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Post by: rigeld2
I'd volunteer to do it. In a heartbeat.
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Post by: daedalus
mattyrm wrote:Welcome to Dakkadakka.com, a fun and sociable wargaming website/militant theocracy that brooks no dissent.
I haven't been on the board much lately, so I haven't seen your posts much, was this before or after this thread?
Cause, like, if it was after, it's a reaction that makes sense. If it was before, then yeah, that's kind of the feeling I've been getting too. :(
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Post by: mattyrm
You haven't seen me much because saying bad things about Christianity in front of American mods gets you banned from the board for lengthy periods. 
But yeah, that's not in reaction to this thread....don't worry though, I'm only on a temporary ban.
I'm going to be given full privileges back when we're all playing warhammer 50k, and lucius the eternal has alzeimers. 
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Post by: Peregrine
 SurfPenguin wrote:Seriously, if 'the community' wants GW to listen to them, then said 'community' had better start saying something other than "You stupid who don't know we don't give a damn about your wellbeing as a company, give us everything we want, right now, for free!"
Yeah, let's just pretend that the anger at GW is all about trolls demanding free products instead of justified concerns about GW's poor handling of the games we love and a perception that GW doesn't care as long as short term profits keep coming in long enough for the upper management to cash their retirement checks.
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Post by: snooggums
I nominate Matt Ward for community rep!
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Post by: OverwatchCNC
Peregrine wrote: SurfPenguin wrote:Seriously, if 'the community' wants GW to listen to them, then said 'community' had better start saying something other than "You stupid who don't know we don't give a damn about your wellbeing as a company, give us everything we want, right now, for free!"
Yeah, let's just pretend that the anger at GW is all about trolls demanding free products instead of justified concerns about GW's poor handling of the games we love and a perception that GW doesn't care as long as short term profits keep coming in long enough for the upper management to cash their retirement checks.
Case meet point. Automatically Appended Next Post:  mattyrm wrote:You haven't seen me much because saying bad things about Christianity in front of American mods gets you banned from the board for lengthy periods.
But yeah, that's not in reaction to this thread....don't worry though, I'm only on a temporary ban.
I'm going to be given full privileges back when we're all playing warhammer 50k, and lucius the eternal has alzeimers.
Really? I am glad I don't get into any theological or political debates etc. on dakka then...
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Daedricbob wrote:It seems a bit odd that in this modern age GW don't have a community rep that liaises with the main wargaming websites/publications.
Three simple answers to this: Our perspective: Yes, you are correct. It really is odd. They really should have one. Engagement with the community at large is a good thing, even if they cannot cater to everyone's wishes. Especially with the bigger sites (Dakka, Taco Bell, Whineseer, etc.), there should be some attempt at a gathering of thoughts and feedback - a back and forth of discussion. It would bring the community together and service both the hobby and the HHHobby. GW's perspective: The Internet is a fad. We can control it! My perspective: With people like Testify and Zwei chugging the GW Kool Aid, they don't need their own representatives here.
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Post by: Laughing Man
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:They had someone come in a small while ago, they were QUICKLY ran off by the likes of this community with heavy vitriol, some of which is posting in this thread now.
Correction: A hiring agency working for GW posted here looking for employees. No actual GW employees were harmed in the making of this post. Automatically Appended Next Post: SurfPenguin wrote:OP, let me ask you a simple question: If you were running a company, would you want a phone line where, no matter when you picked it up any hour of the day you got nothing other than an endless string of insults, obscenities, and screaming demands that you essentially give your product away for free?
You wouldn't?
Well, now you know why GW doesn't have a community representative.
Seriously, if 'the community' wants GW to listen to them, then said 'community' had better start saying something other than "You stupid who don't know we don't give a damn about your wellbeing as a company, give us everything we want, right now, for free!"
The problem with this line of thought is that it simply isn't what having a community rep is for. Sure, you have to listen to a few posts complaining about price rises. However, without responding to these complaints you merely engender ill will towards your company, making it seem that the complaints are not only justified, but you don't give a gak about what your customers think. By engaging your fanbase, you can spell out WHY you're increasing prices and quell dissent. Look at what Privateer did with the price rise they did a few years back: They started with a nice graph of rising metal prices, talked about exploring alternate materials while joking about having depleted the world's tin supply as promised, and apologized for the necessity of the move. I'm not sure I saw a single complaint about the hike on any of the boards I frequent. THAT is how you manage a community, not simply ignoring its existence.
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Post by: blood reaper
vedreag wrote: Cruentus wrote: It wasn't worth the time, headache, and investment (salary, forums, IT, whatever) to keep doing it, especially c considering what GWs forum became. I don't blame them.
I'm almost afraid to ask, but what did the GW forums turn into?
Games Workshop would ban anyone who bashed the company or it's pricing, this happened allot, along with lots of criticism on several other subjects. GW realised that this wouldn't end and closed the forum so they didn't have to read ether "YOUR PRICES ARE TOO HIGH!" or "WHITE DWARF SUCKS!".
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Post by: Testify
They have one.
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My perspective: With people like Testify and Zwei chugging the GW Kool Aid, they don't need their own representatives here.
Yet again, I am not a GW fan boy, I'm a grown-up. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Laughing Man wrote:
The problem with this line of thought is that it simply isn't what having a community rep is for. Sure, you have to listen to a few posts complaining about price rises. However, without responding to these complaints you merely engender ill will towards your company, making it seem that the complaints are not only justified, but you don't give a gak about what your customers think. By engaging your fanbase, you can spell out WHY you're increasing prices and quell dissent. Look at what Privateer did with the price rise they did a few years back: They started with a nice graph of rising metal prices, talked about exploring alternate materials while joking about having depleted the world's tin supply as promised, and apologized for the necessity of the move. I'm not sure I saw a single complaint about the hike on any of the boards I frequent. THAT is how you manage a community, not simply ignoring its existence.
The community ruined the relationship. I remember (vaguely, we're talking about 12 years ago now. God damn I feel old.) the GW forums. Rational discourse between GW and the fans was impossible, thanks to the sort of people in this thread. Except poor moderation meant that they were by and large unchecked, so the decent folk like myself left, leaving it as an ocean of GW hate with a few rocky atolls of reasonable folk.
I personally don't begrudge GW shutting it down. Why should they spend thousands of pounds a year on a community discussion, only for the community to do nothing but bitch and whinge about them?
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Post by: Backfire
Peregrine wrote: Conclusion: the sooner GW dies and gets bought by WOTC the better.
Oh right, WotC which is just as bad in "lets milk the customer base dry" -attitude than GW. Yeah, that'd be great. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Testify wrote: I personally don't begrudge GW shutting it down. Why should they spend thousands of pounds a year on a community discussion, only for the community to do nothing but bitch and whinge about them?
Yeah, this is one thing I side with GW. What would be a point having "official forum"? They only attract worst fanboys and most profilic haters and reasonable discussion is impossible. Official forums always suck, without exception.
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Post by: Sigvatr
GW does not care at all about its consumer base. They give a flying shi....taki mushroom about what their customers want.
What would be the point of a community rep then?
inb4 fanboys USING DEROGATORY NICKNAMES OR APPELATIONS FOR OTHER POSTERS IS NOT NECESSARY OR APPROPRIATE. -Mannahnin stating that GW cares a lot and the prices we pay are just fair for the amazing fanservice GW offers.
/e: Darn.
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Post by: Pacific
WarOne wrote:There will be a day when GW will have to account to the public, but that is not a day long coming when they continue to be successful and their IP strong.
I see what you did there, but perhaps it was a freudian slip? 
daedalus wrote:
Peregrine wrote:Because GW's management is a bunch of incompetent idiots who are afraid to do anything that might in...
Ahh, there it is: my moment of zen.
Hey come on, it's taken years of repeatedly 'not giving a gak' by GW for the community on Dakka to reach this level of respect for the company. Without going into a long-winded (and now very tedious) repeat about the continual price rises, Finecast, shops shrinking, RoW embargo etc. etc. just see the Monty Python 'Fish slapping dance' vid to see how GW has gradually, through great effort, whittled down the resilience of its long-term fan base.
snooggums wrote:I nominate Matt Ward for community rep!
To be honest, it would have been nice for their to be anyone.
Howard Treesong's post early in the thread has it - most of GW's customers are newbies who don't hang around for long, and the community here has long since taken on the mantle of an angry mob pounding unanswered at the gates of the Citadel.
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Post by: Kingsley
According to Robin Cruddace, cutting down information released prior to new armies coming out has caused increased profits. That's all there is to it-- GW has tested different methods, and they have found that not releasing information makes them more money than their previous previews and "leaks" did.
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Post by: SilverMK2
ZebioLizard2 wrote:They had someone come in a small while ago, they were QUICKLY ran off by the likes of this community with heavy vitriol, some of which is posting in this thread now.
I believe that he is not actually a part of GW but part of a recruitment firm they have taken on to advertise jobs going in their stores (of which there are many due to high staff turn over rates ) Edit: Didn't see the second page of the thread! Whoops! Automatically Appended Next Post: Testify wrote:The community ruined the relationship. I remember (vaguely, we're talking about 12 years ago now. God damn I feel old.) the GW forums. Rational discourse between GW and the fans was impossible, thanks to the sort of people in this thread. Except poor moderation meant that they were by and large unchecked, so the decent folk like myself left, leaving it as an ocean of GW hate with a few rocky atolls of reasonable folk.
I personally don't begrudge GW shutting it down. Why should they spend thousands of pounds a year on a community discussion, only for the community to do nothing but bitch and whinge about them?
Infinity have a massive forum for their game, running in several languages. I have to admit not going on there very often, but it is all very reasonable and civil, perhaps because the company is heavily involved in the community and reacts to feedback and suggestions.
I don't play any of PP's games, but they have a rather large and active forum and as mentioned in this thread, they have an active hand in engaging with their customers/fans.
So, two reasonably large games companies both manage to run their own forums without a problem
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Post by: Palindrome
Testify wrote:
The community ruined the relationship. I remember (vaguely, we're talking about 12 years ago now. God damn I feel old.) the GW forums. Rational discourse between GW and the fans was impossible, thanks to the sort of people in this thread.
Actually it was very hard to have a rational discussion on those boards for 2 reasons. It had a horrifically bad layout and any post which didn't tow the party line was quickly deleted. It was a worthy goal but badly run and GW obviously didn't like the freedom that it allowed users so they ultimately pulled the plug.
The GW online community isn't actually all that bad (have a look at the Blizzard forums for an example of a bad community) and there are a lot of good things that could be learned from listening to it. Dismissing it out of hand simply because people may say things that you don't like is rank stupidity. A good company would actively listen to its customers and would act to make them as happy as it can while maintaining its own goals. GW simply doesn't listen which has allowed easily fixable issues to fester for years.
Perhaps if they did listen they wouldn't have such a bad reputation within the wargaming community?
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Post by: angel of ecstasy
Becuz dey iz G-dub N gak N dey don' give a gak bout dem costumerz becuz dey don give uz free gak.
[Edited by Moderator]
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Post by: Trondheim
mattyrm wrote:Just sit and read the hate and rage on this board, there is your answer!
The poor fether who worked for GW in that role would get more abuse than a registered sex offender with leprosy.
Agreed, When I sometimes read threads here on Dakka I feel ashamed to have joined Dakka. Because there are so many sulphuric and trollish people in this hobby that such a job would be suicidal.
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Post by: heartserenade
 Trondheim wrote: mattyrm wrote:Just sit and read the hate and rage on this board, there is your answer!
The poor fether who worked for GW in that role would get more abuse than a registered sex offender with leprosy.
Agreed, When I sometimes read threads here on Dakka I feel ashamed to have joined Dakka. Because there are so many sulphuric and trollish people in this hobby that such a job would be suicidal.
Every community, country, region, belief and following has trolls and donkey caves. That doesn't mean you don't reach out to your target market for fear of trolls.
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Post by: stormwell
I am barely even remotely a fan of GW but I wish to point out a couple of things that people seem to have either missed or overlooked.
Once upon a time GW did have its very own internet forum, however it suffered from poor design choice and management. But it still had thousands of people posting on it, surprisingly civil at that! Then GW shut it down, citing that there was better forums out there.
GW also had its own version of PP's Press Gangers, IIRC they were called Outriders and were based mainly in Northern Europe where GW stores was non-existent. Only mention of them I've ever seen was in the 2004 Chapter Approved book.
TBH I believe GW needs to ditch its shareholders and cease being a publicly traded company, then step back and take a serious look at its operations.
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Post by: Boomstick
"Why does GW not have a community representative?"
Having hundreds of stores worldwide and counting providing free help and advise not enough? Sure some places dont have stores but the number is growing and what exactly would they do other than cost GW lots of money, that stores or information online can not do that would justify that cost?
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Post by: d3m01iti0n
I dropped my GIJoe collection for 40K. Look at HissTank.com. Even though its ran by a bunch of douchebags, THAT is an outstanding example of product promotion and a community. Joe has been around for ages, since he was a doll, into the 80s when Hasbro practically owned the action figure market with an absurd amount of product, into the 90s and early 2000s with lackluster product, and from late 2000s up to today, with the 25th Anniversary line, the horrible RoC movie, and the upcoming 3D movie.
Joe has had its ups and downs, but they pay attention to the fans. It is not the market dominator it used to be in the 80s but when 30-something year olds clamor for a certain figure, Hasbro listens and we got it. They would display new figures and vehicles months ahead of time to build interest, and the day they were released retail and online stores sold out immediately.
You may say sure, Hasbro has other brands to fall back on (Transformers, My Little Pedo, etc), but for every succesful line they carry there were ten duds. How do you think they got that way? By taking risks. Sure, these toys/cartoons are marketed to your average child who will watch Saturday morning cartoons and smash an Optimus and Snake Eyes around until they break. 40K appeals to the other demographic; the nerds, the geeks, the freaks, the adults who just need a fun hobby. It moves expensive models, books, terrains, novels, and supplies. It is self sustaining but it has room to grow.
How do you make something so blatantly catagorized as "nerdy" into something commonplace? Marketing. There was a time when sitting around playing DooM or Quake was a totally geeky thing to do. Now look at CoD, Halo, or GoW. Still lame, but socially acceptable and each comes with a whole world of merch. Something needs to be done to make that swing from "neckbeards huddled in a game shop, dont go in there!" to "make some spacemen in your free time, then have some friends over and roll some dice over beers". Nowadays video games are an awesome way to push the product (Space Marine is why Im here), but so is getting a movie out there, and the imagery. Lets face it; a Space Marine looks badass. Your average gamer sees that and wants to know more. Oh, its tabletop? Forget that. Its taboo. You find ways to make it socially acceptable. THAT is how you expand a business. Identify your demographic, and find how to expand to a new demographic while keeping the original fanbase.
The Warhammer franchise has a ridiculous amount of potential. The backstory, the imagery, the hobby, the social interaction. Ive only been into it for a year but I feel like its a genre that is on the brink of something bigger but it is being held back. With the right push it could be a household name. Expand the business, get better video game licenses, keep people busy with new games, move merch to advertise, keep fans up to date with new releases, properly update armies in a timely fashion and update during the downtime with FAQs including new units/rules to keep people interested in buying. Get movies and other media going to attract new customers. Lower prices (I had a friend who is REALLY into RPGs and this kind of stuff; I brought him to the local hobby store and he said NO WAY once he looked at a price tag).
Im done. Im really bored at the office and rambling.
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Post by: Fafnir
 SilverMK2 wrote:
Testify wrote:The community ruined the relationship. I remember (vaguely, we're talking about 12 years ago now. God damn I feel old.) the GW forums. Rational discourse between GW and the fans was impossible, thanks to the sort of people in this thread. Except poor moderation meant that they were by and large unchecked, so the decent folk like myself left, leaving it as an ocean of GW hate with a few rocky atolls of reasonable folk.
I personally don't begrudge GW shutting it down. Why should they spend thousands of pounds a year on a community discussion, only for the community to do nothing but bitch and whinge about them?
Infinity have a massive forum for their game, running in several languages. I have to admit not going on there very often, but it is all very reasonable and civil, perhaps because the company is heavily involved in the community and reacts to feedback and suggestions.
I haven't been on the Infinity forums in a while (a combination of not having time and not having anyone to play with where I am right now will do that to you), but back when I still frequented the place, it was fantastic. The community was nothing short of fantastic, and CB did a great job of maintaining it.
The problem isn't the community discussion, it's that many people have legitimate views and concerns that GW doesn't want to hear. And it only gets angrier and angrier the more they ignore it.
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Post by: Kanluwen
 Fafnir wrote: SilverMK2 wrote:
Testify wrote:The community ruined the relationship. I remember (vaguely, we're talking about 12 years ago now. God damn I feel old.) the GW forums. Rational discourse between GW and the fans was impossible, thanks to the sort of people in this thread. Except poor moderation meant that they were by and large unchecked, so the decent folk like myself left, leaving it as an ocean of GW hate with a few rocky atolls of reasonable folk.
I personally don't begrudge GW shutting it down. Why should they spend thousands of pounds a year on a community discussion, only for the community to do nothing but bitch and whinge about them?
Infinity have a massive forum for their game, running in several languages. I have to admit not going on there very often, but it is all very reasonable and civil, perhaps because the company is heavily involved in the community and reacts to feedback and suggestions.
I haven't been on the Infinity forums in a while (a combination of not having time and not having anyone to play with where I am right now will do that to you), but back when I still frequented the place, it was fantastic. The community was nothing short of fantastic, and CB did a great job of maintaining it.
The problem isn't the community discussion, it's that many people have legitimate views and concerns that GW doesn't want to hear. And it only gets angrier and angrier the more they ignore it.
Actually yeah, the community can be a problem.
As an example:
On the Infinity forums, when certain topics(notably the cheesecake issue) come up you see nothing but the "LALALALA WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT" style of posting where people are just trying to get a thread locked and buried.
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Post by: sarpedons-right-hand
So, there are some really strong view points on here, and a lot of them I agree with. However, there are very good reasons that GDub do not send sacrificial lambs onto sites like Dakka. MattyRM has a handle on it as do a few others. There is simply no way in hell that anyone in Thier right mind would want a job like that. Look at the poor Headhunter dude who posted on here earlier in the month. No doubt told by someone at GDub to "Go look for likely Red Shirts/Managers. And don't forget to check out forums that we ignore and don't like to include at all!.....Good luck"
Now I'm not asking for GDub to GIVE me things for free. They are a business after all and they have to make a profit. However ignorant of the generally held view they are. The problem comes when they make business decisions that boggle the mind. Fine cast ( tm), Price rises that are monotonous as a metronome, the cancelling of sneak peaks, etc etc.
But for me, it's the price rises that have done it. Now I'm not saying that GDub shouldn't have put their prices up over the years, but when I started playing, a Rhino was £5..... Or £10 for 3...... I digress however. I have found the price rises of a few GDub products from 2004-2012 and the amount in percentage of the increases.
http://warmaster40k.com/2012/07/11/games-workshop-vs-inflation-the-true-numbers-behind-the-price-increases/
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Post by: Kanluwen
 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:So, there are some really strong view points on here, and a lot of them I agree with. However, there are very good reasons that GDub do not send sacrificial lambs onto sites like Dakka. MattyRM has a handle on it as do a few others. There is simply no way in hell that anyone in Thier right mind would want a job like that. Look at the poor Headhunter dude who posted on here earlier in the month. No doubt told by someone at GDub to "Go look for likely Red Shirts/Managers. And don't forget to check out forums that we ignore and don't like to include at all!.....Good luck"
Actually, from what he's said...the people he works with from GW expected him to be fired for posting on Dakka.
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Post by: WarOne
He has also somewhat integrated himself into the community, trying to bring something positive to the table.
Not sure of the future success and benefits, but certainly something to note.
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Post by: Lanrak
HI Broomstick.
GW plc spend in excess of £60M on the chain of B&M stores.(Which are being downsized to one man stores focused on retail, so all the free help is getting less and less.While the markup to cover the costs is increasing.)
Compared to the cost of a well run a moderated web site the chain of GW stores are a massive expence...(Appx 120 times more expencive!)
Travel back in time with me if you will....
In the 1990s when GW were developing RT into a larger skirmish game ,(2nd ed.)Lots of gamers wrote into the dev team with thoughts and ideas.
(My old gaming group got a nice letter back from Andy C.)
Back then GW seemed to be more focused on getting good games out, to inspire and retain gamers.(They doubled turn over every 3 years from 1987 to 1997.)
The game play grew interest and the amount of stores was increased to keep up with demand.
HOWEVER, GW high ups assumed it was the stores that was driving interest, (and ignored the impact of game play .)
Also after a limited investigation across GW ,stores, it revealed that the newer customers spent more short term.(No surprise there then.)
However, long term spending habits were NOT investigated...
Its was almost like the chairman was looking for information /searching for the interpritation of data to arrive at a simple and easy mission statement for the share holders...'we are in the buisness of selling toy soldiers to children..'perhaps... 
Oddly enough when GW plc started targeting children specificaly 11 to 16 year old boys.(Rather than gamers in general.)
The quality/type of posts on the GW forums changed some what....
'Ideas for a more interactive game turn'.
'Alternative methods of resolving close assaults..'
'Campain rules ideas'.
Were replaced with '
'Plasma Mareens of deff.'.
' Awsom killy kaptin for my chapter.'
'As we are selling to people who know nothing, and they will belive anything we tell them.WHY bother interacting with them any more than we have to?''
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Post by: Davylove21
I reckon somebody in Nottingham sees these threads with a load of management geniuses saying "GW don't know gak! They need to respect us and give us previews and blah blah blah... Say, these Dark Angels leaks look pretty sweet, I'm totally stoked for this new release" and smiles broadly
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Post by: mattyrm
H.B.M.C. wrote: Daedricbob wrote:It seems a bit odd that in this modern age GW don't have a community rep that liaises with the main wargaming websites/publications.
Three simple answers to this:
Our perspective: Yes, you are correct. It really is odd. They really should have one. Engagement with the community at large is a good thing, even if they cannot cater to everyone's wishes. Especially with the bigger sites (Dakka, Taco Bell, Whineseer, etc.), there should be some attempt at a gathering of thoughts and feedback - a back and forth of discussion. It would bring the community together and service both the hobby and the HHHobby.
GW's perspective: The Internet is a fad. We can control it!
My perspective: With people like Testify and Zwei chugging the GW Kool Aid, they don't need their own representatives here.
I agree with the majority of your post, just not the last two sentences, is there any need to constantly try to take the piss out of people who don't share your rage at a PLC?
I don't like the whole "kool aid" thing period personally.. It reminds me of the weird people who think that the last three major school shootings were committed by government soldiers/UN black ops everyone who thinks otherwise is a "sheep" and they are all super smart.
As I've told you several times, I fully agree with many of your points, because I've only got a toe in the hobby compared to most people on here, and clearly I would not spend a bomb on some of their outrageously priced products, but being aggressively anti GW doesn't make you the smartest guy in the room in the same way that pre ordering the entire hobbit line doesn't make you a moron.
Basically, everyone draws a different line in the sand regarding how much a product is worth orthe how much they are willing to spend on said pastime, I don't think there is any need to attempt to mock people that are happier throwing more cash about than some.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
Daedricbob wrote:It seems a bit odd that in this modern age GW don't have a community rep that liaises with the main wargaming websites/publications.
Such a position would allow them to provide official rulings on rule interpretations/questions as well as providing 'sneak peeks' of upcoming products, promoting offers, gaining valuable product/design feedback and I feel would go a long way to promoting general goodwill within the gaming community, the people that buy their products.
I honestly can't understand why they don't have anyone doing this, they don't even have their own forums.
Multiple reasons:
1: these forums are rarely a serious discussion area. too many players act as if GW does a disservice to them for not wholly supporting their occupation. GW is not in that business.
2: once GW did open an account, the user would be flooded with whine threads ranging from "where's Cypher?" to "on page 66 it says this guy did that but in another book it says he didn't, can you please get your fluff straight?" to "WHY CAN'T YOU IDIOTS BUILD A DECENT AND BALANCED RULESET!!! WAAAARD!" The poor guy volunteering for the job of answering all these would need some serious tranquilizers just to show up to work.
3: I know every sports fan in the world is a better coach than the coaches on the field, just like every idiot out there who writes a fandex knows game design better than a game company. GW is in business because they do a lot of research. there is a lot of math that goes into building a game system, and a lot of testing. opening an account would open another venue for every future Matt Ward-replacement and his "uber-cool, just like in the novels" fandex. you want to write for GW? get a job with them.
so unless we are willing to calm down and treat Warhammer as it is (a game), a GW representative would not exactly jump at the chance of ever joining a discussion page...
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Post by: Saldiven
I am sure that GW has a rational motivation for their decisions, though I may or may not agree with it if that reason were explained to me.
I do wish, however, that GW had an attitude towards it's customer base more similar to this attitude from a different company:
http://dark-age.com/content.php?159-State-of-the-Game-2013
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Post by: Testify
 Sigvatr wrote:GW does not care at all about its consumer base. They give a flying shi....taki mushroom about what their customers want.
Have you missed all the posts about how they used to have a forum? Are you even old enough to remember what it was like?
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Post by: SilverMK2
Testify wrote:Have you missed all the posts about how they used to have a forum? Are you even old enough to remember what it was like?
Companies can change. Just because they used to interact with their customer/fan base, doesn't mean the current incarnation of the company has any interest in doing so. And again, two quite large gaming companies, PP and CB have their own thriving and well behaved forums.
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Post by: theHandofGork
Didn't this used to exist? I think was Chris Golinghorst's job before being let go.
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Post by: Rainyday
For all the hate WOTC gets, the MTG online community, isn't bad. The people who make the game keep in touch with the fans, answer questions, give reasoning, and occasionally admit mistakes. Even in the official forums, people are free to discuss the state of the game, upcoming releases, and even the strengths and weaknesses (or complete uselessness) of individual cards.
Another good example of a company that is very visible and communicative online would be Riot games of League of Legends fame. At any given time of day you can potentially chat with anyone in the company in the forums, all the way up to the president. The "reds" are pretty good about ignoring the trolls and only speaking to those who are interested in having rational discussion. Also, while not everyone agrees with their final decisions, they do take feedback from the players, and even let them test out updates before release.
Admittedly, neither of these companies have the same business model as GW, and are much more accustomed to keeping up their online presence.
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Post by: spaceelf
Most game companies have forums.
PP
BattleFront Miniatures
Wyrd
Corvus Belli
Mantic
Spartan Games
and
DreamPod 9
all have them.
It is rather remarkable that GW no longer has one. All of the other companies are able to deal with nay sayers and the discussion of other companies products.
GW definitely needs a community rep to help mollify the vitrol that people have for the company. This is what public relations is about. Ignoring the public is a very bad option.
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Post by: Testify
SilverMK2 wrote: Testify wrote:Have you missed all the posts about how they used to have a forum? Are you even old enough to remember what it was like?
Companies can change. Just because they used to interact with their customer/fan base, doesn't mean the current incarnation of the company has any interest in doing so. And again, two quite large gaming companies, PP and CB have their own thriving and well behaved forums.
Paradox Interactive developers have a habit of posting on their boards and taking questions from fans. In return, their fans don't relentlessly and consistantly insult them and flame them with their whinging malcontent.
As I say, it's give and take. The community ruined it, probably because most civilised folk weren't willing to use an "official" forum at all. I've never been on the official Civilisation, Warcraft or Dawn of War forums for similar reasons (though am an avid poster on Paradox, if you couldn't tell).
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Post by: Monster Rain
GW has email and phone options for people to contact them for customer service purposes.
Of course, this removes a certain amount of the anonymity that is required for the sort of trolling that takes place on a forum.
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Post by: Harriticus
Because they don't care much about any of those things. They used to do sneak peaks and take people's Q&As and have their own forum. They scrapped it all because they know most of their profit comes from customers new to the hobby and who only stay a short time.
This more or less. We're anathema and an annoyance to GW.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
I assume the OP also missed they guy posting job openings at GW? Assumjng he was a GW official representative, his thread was swarmed with background, rules, pricing, and overall complaints. If the guy is still around, he probably has a massive headache from collective thunderclap of whining.
And all he wanted to do was refer us to the employment pages at GW...
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Post by: Palindrome
As I recall it was GW who ruined it with ineffectual/bad modding and a poor forum design.
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Post by: Testify
Palindrome wrote:
As I recall it was GW who ruined it with ineffectual/bad modding and a poor forum design.
It's true that the forum had an out-dated design, even for back then. That's no excuse for constant trolling.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
its funny the amount of hate GW generates, yet most of the haters still play GW games... odd... when I don't like something, I usually stay away from it...
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Post by: Palindrome
As I recall every post that was even slightly anti GW was simply deleted out of hand.
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Post by: Testify
We both know there's no such thing as "slightly anti GW". Just look at this thread...
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
Palindrome wrote:
As I recall every post that was even slightly anti GW was simply deleted out of hand.
and that was their right to do so. If I started badmouthing Yakface or DakkaDakka in general, I'd probably have my posts deleted and my account suspended. So what?
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Post by: Palindrome
Of course there is such as thing as slightly anti GW. Not everyone is rabidly longing for the day that GW implodes under the weight of its own mistakes.
People really need to grow a thicker skin.
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Post by: brainscan
B'cause they just don't care.....
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Post by: Palindrome
 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
and that was their right to do so. If I started badmouthing Yakface or DakkaDakka in general, I'd probably have my posts deleted and my account suspended. So what?
First of all your analogy doesn't work. So what? Well if you want to ensure that your forum is devoid of anything other than army lists,amateur rules development and "space marins are kool" threads there needs to be some dissent for their to be a meaningful discussion.
It was their right to do what they want with their forum but the end result was that it was a poor substitute for the third party forums available at the time. Ironically these forums are still alive today and peoples grievances are openly aired and other games openly discusses all completely outside GW's influence. GW would have been much better served by maintaining its forum properly.
If you are going to reach out to the community you have to accept that there will be things that people don't like and that the internet breeds screaming hyperbole. the first can be tackled by engaging with the community and at least acknowledging their grievances while the second is the only place where heavy handed moderation is appropriate.
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Post by: Kingsley
Saldiven wrote:I am sure that GW has a rational motivation for their decisions, though I may or may not agree with it if that reason were explained to me.
As I said early in the thread, according to Robin Cruddace cutting down information released prior to new armies coming out has caused increased profits. That's all there is to it-- GW has tested different methods, and they have found that not releasing information makes them more money than their previous previews and "leaks" did.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
most rules discussions boil down into GW sucks. most fandexes boil down to GW and Mat Wars sucks.
see a common thread?
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Post by: Sigvatr
Testify wrote: Sigvatr wrote:GW does not care at all about its consumer base. They give a flying shi....taki mushroom about what their customers want.
Have you missed all the posts about how they used to have a forum? Are you even old enough to remember what it was like?
What point is there to talk about their forums? They were entirely useless as every post that went against their way was deleted / threads were locked and let's not start about price discussions back then.
Furthermore, you really start grasping for straws now. You try back your argument of GW caring up by bringing up a forum that has been created ages ago? Less blindly embracing everything GW does and more rational thinking would be greatly appreciated.
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Post by: heartserenade
And yet there exists other forums that does not devolve into" this company sucks!" in every thread. Mayhaps the problem is not the community but with the company?
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Post by: Sigvatr
 heartserenade wrote:And yet there exists other forums that does not devolve into" this company sucks!" in every thread. Mayhaps the problem is not the community but with the company?
Impossibrue!
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Post by: Testify
Sigvatr wrote:
What point is there to talk about their forums? They were entirely useless as every post that went against their way was deleted / threads were locked and let's not start about price discussions back then.
If any other forum had the butthurt spam that GW forums had, they'd been locked too. Whinging about prices or things you don't like is pointless. Despite what the kiddies on dakka thing, GW aren't going to go around giving out free models if enough people on the internet complain.
Sigvatr wrote:
Furthermore, you really start grasping for straws now. You try back your argument of GW caring up by bringing up a forum that has been created ages ago? Less blindly embracing everything GW does and more rational thinking would be greatly appreciated.
I didn't say they "cared". I neither want nor expect companies to "care" about their customers. The fact that you think they do shows that you've been sucked in by corporate bs from other sources. No company gives a gak about their customers.
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Post by: heartserenade
Sigvatr wrote: heartserenade wrote:And yet there exists other forums that does not devolve into" this company sucks!" in every thread. Mayhaps the problem is not the community but with the company?
Impossibrue!
And even when faced with criticism, these companies respond and listen to the community. Official M:tG has its share of rant threads, but I don't see it closing down and they do address and explain things to the community when it is needed. A poster in this thread gave an example with Dark Age. These are good examples of how to interact with your community. Not listening to the community because people complain about your services/product is very unreasonable: YOU as a company should cater to your market's needs, not the other way around.
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Post by: Testify
GW is mainly targeted at younger gamers. Teenage nerds are just full of rage.
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Post by: Alfndrate
Palindrome wrote: SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
and that was their right to do so. If I started badmouthing Yakface or DakkaDakka in general, I'd probably have my posts deleted and my account suspended. So what?
First of all your analogy doesn't work. So what? Well if you want to ensure that your forum is devoid of anything other than army lists,amateur rules development and "space marins are kool" threads there needs to be some dissent for their to be a meaningful discussion.
Actually his post would be deleted and his account would be banned for at least a few days... Bad mouthing Yakface violates rule 1 of Be Polite...
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Post by: Sigvatr
Testify wrote:
I didn't say they "cared". I neither want nor expect companies to "care" about their customers. The fact that you think they do shows that you've been sucked in by corporate bs from other sources. No company gives a gak about their customers.
Oh wait, you mean like Bioware adding additional endings after a massive outburst by their fan base? The same Bioware that's part of EA, the biggest publisher around? The same Bioware that maintains a huge forum with regular developer feedback.
Oh, what about all the indie game companies? Kickstarter?
Less blind love, more rationalism. It helps.
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Post by: heartserenade
Testify wrote:
GW is mainly targeted at younger gamers. Teenage nerds are just full of rage.
This is really like playing chess with a pigeon. Automatically Appended Next Post: Sigvatr wrote: Testify wrote:
I didn't say they "cared". I neither want nor expect companies to "care" about their customers. The fact that you think they do shows that you've been sucked in by corporate bs from other sources. No company gives a gak about their customers.
Oh wait, you mean like Bioware adding additional endings after a massive outburst by their fan base? The same Bioware that's part of EA, the biggest publisher around? The same Bioware that maintains a huge forum with regular developer feedback.
Oh, what about all the indie game companies? Kickstarter?
Less blind love, more rationalism. It helps.
Furthermore, whining does not do anything? Whining signals dislike from your market. If your market is whining, it means they're not liking something your company is doing. They'll pay you more money if they like what you're doing or if they don't see you as a bad guy. Marketing is all about relationship, and relationships are two-way streets. Attend a marketing class and that's one of the first thing you'll learn.
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Post by: Testify
Sigvatr wrote:
Oh wait, you mean like Bioware adding additional endings after a massive outburst by their fan base? The same Bioware that's part of EA, the biggest publisher around? The same Bioware that maintains a huge forum with regular developer feedback.
Making something that fans want and then selling it to them, that counts as "caring" to you?
While there are (and were) threads like this, such as threads asking for AdMech or non-Cadian guard, these are in the overwealming minority. You can't expect GW to listen to them when they're drowned out 10 to 1 by butthurt and " pls give us free models".
heartserenade wrote:
Whining signals dislike from your market.
Not buying something signals your dislike for the market. Or did they not teach you that in whatever arts class you attended? If you think something is worth what its seller is charging, buy if. If you don't, don't buy it. Simple, no?
heartserenade wrote:Marketing is all about relationship, and relationships are two-way streets. Attend a marketing class and that's one of the first thing you'll learn.
I've never attended a marketing class, but I have worked a little in marketing, and my old boss used to be the head of marketing for one of Britain's largest supermarkets. If the forum we ran had been full of people whinging and bitching about us and complaining about charges relentlessly for years on end, then sure we'd have shut it down and simply retained facebook/twitter.
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Post by: daedalus
heartserenade wrote:
Furthermore, whining does not do anything? Whining signals dislike from your market. If your market is whining, it means they're not liking something your company is doing. They'll pay you more money if they like what you're doing or if they don't see you as a bad guy. Marketing is all about relationship, and relationships are two-way streets. Attend a marketing class and that's one of the first thing you'll learn.
The problem is that the whiners are the abused spouses of the HHHobby. Their tears fill forums, but then when the time comes, they drag their dollars back to get yet another beating. The whining is background noise. The cashflow is the singular and ultimate indicator of market situation.
Sometimes you just gotta say your piece, hang it up, and then find whatever actually makes you happy. To do otherwise is to (I hope) one day realize you spent years being so emotional attached to something, when ultimately it probably wasn't even aware you existed to begin with, and if it was, could not bring itself to care about you if it tried.
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Post by: heartserenade
Testify wrote:
Not buying something signals your dislike for the market. Or did they not teach you that in whatever arts class you attended? If you think something is worth what its seller is charging, buy if. If you don't, don't buy it. Simple, no?
I was talking from a company's point of view, not from the consumer.
And what happens if your customer wants to buy something but was turned off by your company? It signals a loss sale that you could've made, and could still make if you can cater to the changes your customers want. Simple, no?
Also, classy. I took up both Painting and Visual Communication, which tackled advertising, marketing and art. So yeah, I had marketing classes in my "art school".
I've never attended a marketing class, but I have worked a little in marketing, and my old boss used to be the head of marketing for one of Britain's largest supermarkets. If the forum we ran had been full of people whinging and bitching about us and complaining about charges relentlessly for years on end, then sure we'd have shut it down and simply retained facebook/twitter.
Great to know. I take it you haven't attended a philosophy class or worked on a debate team, since what you just said is just irrelevant. Hint: we're not talking about the hypothetical closure of your supermarket's forums due to complaints) (and I'm positive that if that happens, the head of marketing will address the complaints at the very least). We're talking about listening to your consumer base. It's really poor form, but judging from your other posts on other threads, at least you have consistency.
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Post by: Saldiven
@Testify:
1. It isn't merely a question of making a product people like that determines if a company cares about it's customer base. If a company makes something that doesn't live up to their customers' expectation, then listens to the customers' concerns, and then adjusts their product to address those concerns, then that demonstrates that a company cares about their customers. Conversely, if a company makes a product that doesn't live up to their customers' expectations, then ignores the customers' concerns, then that indicates a company that doesn't care about their customers. Also, I was a member of those forums for years, and I don't remember any "give us free models" threads. People did complain about price increases, but that is a far cry from people asking for free stuff. The moderators could have easily posted a sticky thread explaining the reasoning behind the price increases and apologizing for the necessity, and it would have allayed 90% of the complaining, but GW instead merely locked any thread that addressed the subject. Just like they locked any thread that even mentioned Squats.
2. Not buying a product is kind of the last resort, and it's also the end result least desirable to a company. Most companies would far rather hear complaints about their business so that they can make adjustments to keep their customers happy rather than have their customers disappear without the company having an understanding of why. Customer complaints allow a company to know what the customer wants and how to better provide that experience. An old adage is that for every person who makes a positive comment to a company, there will be ten who complain. A related adage is that a satisfied customer will, on average, tell three people about their positive experience with a company, while a dissatisfied customer will, on average, tell ten people about their negative experience, so it behooves a company to keep far more happy customers than unhappy customers. People are, by and large, loyal to a brand, and they would much rather continue with that brand than look for another one; people would rather voice their concerns about a product, have their concerns addressed, and continue buying that product, but GW's current model doesn't give customer's a meaningful way to voice their concerns and have them addressed. One last business adage: It costs far less to retain an existing customer than it does to get a new customer.
3. GW's problem wasn't that they had a message board that was filled with negativity. The problem was that GW established a protocol of never addressing these negative comments. This makes the customer feel disenfranchised and feeds the negative feelings. Sometimes, in business, even if the company is completely in the right, the company still has to hold their hat in their proverbial hands and apologize for upsetting their customers. GW has categorically refused to do this. I've worked in banking for 15 years now, and the vast majority of what I do is regulated by the state or Federal governments. People complain to me all the time about something I had to do that was mandated by the law, but I still apologize for the inconvenience and try to explain the situation. What I do NOT do is ignore their concern.
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Post by: SilverMK2
Well said 
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Post by: heartserenade
Saldiven wrote:@Testify:
1. It isn't merely a question of making a product people like that determines if a company cares about it's customer base. If a company makes something that doesn't live up to their customers' expectation, then listens to the customers' concerns, and then adjusts their product to address those concerns, then that demonstrates that a company cares about their customers. Conversely, if a company makes a product that doesn't live up to their customers' expectations, then ignores the customers' concerns, then that indicates a company that doesn't care about their customers. Also, I was a member of those forums for years, and I don't remember any "give us free models" threads. People did complain about price increases, but that is a far cry from people asking for free stuff. The moderators could have easily posted a sticky thread explaining the reasoning behind the price increases and apologizing for the necessity, and it would have allayed 90% of the complaining, but GW instead merely locked any thread that addressed the subject. Just like they locked any thread that even mentioned Squats.
2. Not buying a product is kind of the last resort, and it's also the end result least desirable to a company. Most companies would far rather hear complaints about their business so that they can make adjustments to keep their customers happy rather than have their customers disappear without the company having an understanding of why. Customer complaints allow a company to know what the customer wants and how to better provide that experience. An old adage is that for every person who makes a positive comment to a company, there will be ten who complain. A related adage is that a satisfied customer will, on average, tell three people about their positive experience with a company, while a dissatisfied customer will, on average, tell ten people about their negative experience, so it behooves a company to keep far more happy customers than unhappy customers. People are, by and large, loyal to a brand, and they would much rather continue with that brand than look for another one; people would rather voice their concerns about a product, have their concerns addressed, and continue buying that product, but GW's current model doesn't give customer's a meaningful way to voice their concerns and have them addressed. One last business adage: It costs far less to retain an existing customer than it does to get a new customer.
3. GW's problem wasn't that they had a message board that was filled with negativity. The problem was that GW established a protocol of never addressing these negative comments. This makes the customer feel disenfranchised and feeds the negative feelings. Sometimes, in business, even if the company is completely in the right, the company still has to hold their hat in their proverbial hands and apologize for upsetting their customers. GW has categorically refused to do this. I've worked in banking for 15 years now, and the vast majority of what I do is regulated by the state or Federal governments. People complain to me all the time about something I had to do that was mandated by the law, but I still apologize for the inconvenience and try to explain the situation. What I do NOT do is ignore their concern.
Hear, hear.
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Post by: insaniak
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:and that was their right to do so. If I started badmouthing Yakface or DakkaDakka in general, I'd probably have my posts deleted and my account suspended. So what?
If one person did that, then yes we would probably lock the post and discuss with them just what they expected to get out of this site.
If enough people started doing it that it began to get in the way of normal discussion... We just might start thinking about looking into what we were doing wrong.
But that's just us. Stamping your feet and telling everyone to get out of your house is clearly the far more professional approach.
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Post by: treslibras
heartserenade wrote:Saldiven wrote:@Testify:
1. It isn't merely a question of making a product people like that determines if a company cares about it's customer base. If a company makes something that doesn't live up to their customers' expectation, then listens to the customers' concerns, and then adjusts their product to address those concerns, then that demonstrates that a company cares about their customers. Conversely, if a company makes a product that doesn't live up to their customers' expectations, then ignores the customers' concerns, then that indicates a company that doesn't care about their customers. Also, I was a member of those forums for years, and I don't remember any "give us free models" threads. People did complain about price increases, but that is a far cry from people asking for free stuff. The moderators could have easily posted a sticky thread explaining the reasoning behind the price increases and apologizing for the necessity, and it would have allayed 90% of the complaining, but GW instead merely locked any thread that addressed the subject. Just like they locked any thread that even mentioned Squats.
2. Not buying a product is kind of the last resort, and it's also the end result least desirable to a company. Most companies would far rather hear complaints about their business so that they can make adjustments to keep their customers happy rather than have their customers disappear without the company having an understanding of why. Customer complaints allow a company to know what the customer wants and how to better provide that experience. An old adage is that for every person who makes a positive comment to a company, there will be ten who complain. A related adage is that a satisfied customer will, on average, tell three people about their positive experience with a company, while a dissatisfied customer will, on average, tell ten people about their negative experience, so it behooves a company to keep far more happy customers than unhappy customers. People are, by and large, loyal to a brand, and they would much rather continue with that brand than look for another one; people would rather voice their concerns about a product, have their concerns addressed, and continue buying that product, but GW's current model doesn't give customer's a meaningful way to voice their concerns and have them addressed. One last business adage: It costs far less to retain an existing customer than it does to get a new customer.
3. GW's problem wasn't that they had a message board that was filled with negativity. The problem was that GW established a protocol of never addressing these negative comments. This makes the customer feel disenfranchised and feeds the negative feelings. Sometimes, in business, even if the company is completely in the right, the company still has to hold their hat in their proverbial hands and apologize for upsetting their customers. GW has categorically refused to do this. I've worked in banking for 15 years now, and the vast majority of what I do is regulated by the state or Federal governments. People complain to me all the time about something I had to do that was mandated by the law, but I still apologize for the inconvenience and try to explain the situation. What I do NOT do is ignore their concern.
Hear, hear.
+1.
The reason why GW don't do it, even if it is against any business rationale, is simply because they still make a profit. Once they don't do it anymore, management will be changed, and things might become much different. If indeed, no buy-out/take-over is happening before that.
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Post by: Palindrome
 daedalus wrote: The cashflow is the singular and ultimate indicator of market situation.
Its interesting that GW's cash flow is drying up then isn't it?
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Post by: NAVARRO
They don't have one representative because they are inclined to believe it's unnecessary... If its a necessity or not we could spend pages on this forum debating it, but lets face it, prices are going up in huge leaps yet people are still buying it.
I think that's an artificial number though ( other discussion)... Also with the hobbit bubble around the corner I don't see any change in the GW Philosophy any time soon.
Me personally? I detached myself from the "GW" brand things long ago and I just pinpoint the things I really want to buy. I leave the passionate remarks and positions to others... I kind of secretly like the fact that GW is inefficient on many fields because that leaves room for other companies explore.
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Post by: Kaldor
daedalus wrote:daedalus wrote:And more importantly, look at the community. It's not healthy to subject people to that kind of abuse. I mean, probably the only thing worse to the human psyche would be to have to be one of those guys who does the offensive crap filter for google or something.
You guys are a lot more vicious than you realize, I think sometimes.
Peregrine wrote:Because GW's management is a bunch of incompetent idiots who are afraid to do anything that might in...
Ahh, there it is: my moment of zen.
lol
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Post by: Ravenous D
 blood reaper wrote:vedreag wrote: Cruentus wrote: It wasn't worth the time, headache, and investment (salary, forums, IT, whatever) to keep doing it, especially c considering what GWs forum became. I don't blame them.
I'm almost afraid to ask, but what did the GW forums turn into?
Games Workshop would ban anyone who bashed the company or it's pricing, this happened allot, along with lots of criticism on several other subjects. GW realised that this wouldn't end and closed the forum so they didn't have to read ether "YOUR PRICES ARE TOO HIGH!" or "WHITE DWARF SUCKS!".
Thats why they are getting gaming tables out of thier stores, GW absolutely hates people with informed opinions. I nearly go banned for questioning why the storm raven was $20 more in Canada then the US despite the dollar being on par for years now. The worst thing about the new generation of GW sell-bots is they will glady sacrifice morals to defend the bosses that use them like fodder.
 Kingsley wrote:According to Robin Cruddace, cutting down information released prior to new armies coming out has caused increased profits. That's all there is to it-- GW has tested different methods, and they have found that not releasing information makes them more money than their previous previews and "leaks" did.
Thats because people are weak, the second I found out the Hobbit was 3 movies spread out over 3 years spelt very clearly "Hi Im peter jacksons shell, the movie is entirely done and we can realease it now over the next year and include it all into one DVD butttttttt I want to make 300 million dollars instead of 100 million". You're being abused for loyalty. GW is no different, those that are loyal get abused, those that find ways not to be abused get kicked harder, then when we question the abuse we are ignored and kicked again.
A company should not be at war with its customers
Testify wrote:Palindrome wrote:
As I recall it was GW who ruined it with ineffectual/bad modding and a poor forum design.
It's true that the forum had an out-dated design, even for back then. That's no excuse for constant trolling.
GW taught as well then, we get trolled by them all the time with "historical exchange rates", trade embargos, cheaper materials that cost customers more, and yearly price increases to the point when we know exactly when it will happen.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:its funny the amount of hate GW generates, yet most of the haters still play GW games... odd... when I don't like something, I usually stay away from it...
You do realize there is a huge difference between liking warhammer and hating GW right?
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Post by: snooggums
Not buying something signals your dislike for the market.
Only if they know why, since there is no difference in a vacuum between not buying something because you don't like it, don't need it. or find the companies practices to be unacceptable.
I haven't ever bought a boat, does that automatically signal a dislike for the market?
No, only by providing feedback to the company does the company know that you stopped or never started buying their stuff because of a specific reason. Even companies can't read minds.
A company that ignores the valid feedback from their customers (i.e. stated preferences, suggestions for improvements, complaints about practices, etc.). I say valid only with the intent to separate feedback that would improve their product from lies or slander.
-------------------------------------
On a separate note, the Hobbit has enough detail to make three movies, so unless there is a bunch of filler three movies doesn't really strike me as just a money grab since it requires more work to make a finished run time of 6 hours as opposed to two, and there is the risk of the later movies failing if the first isn't good enough.
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Post by: Vaktathi
The issues with GW's forums were their own fault. Poor moderation and community handling and poorer responses to issues made for a cesspit. I remember their forums, it was a *very* primitive message board with poor communications on GW's part (what little there was of it).
It became what they helped make it. That'll happen to anything, it's not unique to GW's playerbase.
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Post by: Sidstyler
Testify wrote:You can't expect GW to listen to them when they're drowned out 10 to 1 by butthurt and " pls give us free models".
Name one person on Dakka who has ever said "Please give us free models!", and was completely serious. Name one.
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Post by: Kingsley
 Ravenous D wrote: Kingsley wrote:According to Robin Cruddace, cutting down information released prior to new armies coming out has caused increased profits. That's all there is to it-- GW has tested different methods, and they have found that not releasing information makes them more money than their previous previews and "leaks" did.
Thats because people are weak.
GW doesn't care why some policy is more effective. It cares about the bottom line. If distributing free back massages in all GW stores and selling Forge World miniatures at 90% off was more profitable than what they're doing, GW would do that. It isn't, so they don't.
Questioning GW policies has no effect as long as you keep buying. If you really think new policies are bad, stop buying GW and convince your friends to do the same. GW will change their tone if and only if the bottom line is affected. If, on the other hand, you think new policies are fine, keep buying GW. But if you think policies are bad and you keep buying, your opinion doesn't matter. GW views you the same as it would any other loyal customer.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
there is a big difference in liking Warhammer and hating GW. Problem is, you're still playing and purchasing Warhammer.
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Post by: Fafnir
Sidstyler wrote: Testify wrote:You can't expect GW to listen to them when they're drowned out 10 to 1 by butthurt and " pls give us free models".
Name one person on Dakka who has ever said "Please give us free models!", and was completely serious. Name one.
There was one guy. Wrote down his address and everything. I told him I'd send anthrax. Dude never posted again...
Kingsley wrote: Ravenous D wrote: Kingsley wrote:According to Robin Cruddace, cutting down information released prior to new armies coming out has caused increased profits. That's all there is to it-- GW has tested different methods, and they have found that not releasing information makes them more money than their previous previews and "leaks" did.
Thats because people are weak.
GW doesn't care why some policy is more effective. It cares about the bottom line. If distributing free back massages in all GW stores and selling Forge World miniatures at 90% off was more profitable than what they're doing, GW would do that. It isn't, so they don't.
Questioning GW policies has no effect as long as you keep buying. If you really think new policies are bad, stop buying GW and convince your friends to do the same. GW will change their tone if and only if the bottom line is affected. If, on the other hand, you think new policies are fine, keep buying GW. But if you think policies are bad and you keep buying, your opinion doesn't matter. GW views you the same as it would any other loyal customer.
But when we stop buying their product, they can just use the excuse that we're simply no longer interested, and that they should push even more towards a younger, more impressionable market. Not buying the product is one thing, but to them, that could just mean we're not part of their core demographic (and justifiably so, we're not, although that could go into a discussion about whether or not GW's core demographic is even a good one to begin with). They need to understand why people aren't buying their product, and what would make people want to buy it.
I don't buy GW products anymore, and I haven't for a while now, but they'll never know why I stopped buying. With that in mind, they can do an endless amount of different things, but unless it addresses why I'm not buying their products anymore, they still won't be able to fix the issue. To them, my non-purchasing isn't a lost sale, it's a non-existant sale.
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Post by: Kingsley
Fafnir wrote:[I don't buy GW products anymore, and I haven't for a while now, but they'll never know why I stopped buying. With that in mind, they can do an endless amount of different things, but unless it addresses why I'm not buying their products anymore, they still won't be able to fix the issue.
You could solve that problem by writing a letter to GW and explaining why you don't buy anymore. It's possible that your input won't be taken in to account, but if many people all stop buying for the same reasons and complain, change could result.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
mattyrm wrote:I agree with the majority of your post, just not the last two sentences, is there any need to constantly try to take the piss out of people who don't share your rage at a PLC?
JONAS
Is it really necessary to further antagonise him?
O'NEILL
Yes. - Stargate SG-1, Season 6, Episode 22, Full Circle SoloFalcon1138 wrote:its funny the amount of hate GW generates, yet most of the haters still play GW games... odd... when I don't like something, I usually stay away from it...
Ah the old "Why don't you just quit?" chestnut. Still as fallacious and totally brain-dead as it ever was. For the 80 bazillionth time: Hating GW =/= hating 40K. Get. It. Through. Your. Skull.
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Post by: OverwatchCNC
H.B.M.C. wrote: mattyrm wrote:I agree with the majority of your post, just not the last two sentences, is there any need to constantly try to take the piss out of people who don't share your rage at a PLC?
JONAS
Is it really necessary to further antagonise him?
O'NEILL
Yes.
- Stargate SG-1, Season 6, Episode 22, Full Circle
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:its funny the amount of hate GW generates, yet most of the haters still play GW games... odd... when I don't like something, I usually stay away from it...
Ah the old "Why don't you just quit?" chestnut. Still as fallacious and totally brain-dead as it ever was.
For the 80 bazillionth time:
Hating GW =/= hating 40K.
Get. It. Through. Your. Skull.
That is only your opinion.
Get. It. Through. Your. Skull.
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Post by: WarOne
 Sidstyler wrote: Testify wrote:You can't expect GW to listen to them when they're drowned out 10 to 1 by butthurt and " pls give us free models".
Name one person on Dakka who has ever said "Please give us free models!", and was completely serious. Name one.
Here is a trade thread where a person asked for free models:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/328344.page
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
It's only my opinion that hating GW =/= hating 40K? How does that even make any sense?
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Post by: Sidstyler
Not quite what I was asking for, though technically it counts. I meant more or less fans demanding GW give models away rather than sell them, but you probably knew that anyway.
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Post by: malfred
vedreag wrote: Cruentus wrote: It wasn't worth the time, headache, and investment (salary, forums, IT, whatever) to keep doing it, especially c onsidering what GWs forum became. I don't blame them.
I'm almost afraid to ask, but what did the GW forums turn into?
In case anyone failed to reply in the pages that I haven't read:
Our nickname for the GW forums was "The Eye of Terror."
Does that tell you anything?
Basically it had a lot of vitriolic posting (not all of it was from kiddies) and
with the presence of fans on the forum, the flamewars escalated pretty
quickly. By contrast, a forum like Dakka had far fewer users at the same
time, so moderation was probably easier.
However, I wasn't around as a mod to be able to speak to that.
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Post by: OverwatchCNC
H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's only my opinion that hating GW =/= hating 40K? How does that even make any sense?
You're denying the possibility that someone can disagree with your statement?
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Post by: Fafnir
 OverwatchCNC wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's only my opinion that hating GW =/= hating 40K? How does that even make any sense?
You're denying the possibility that someone can disagree with your statement?
You do understand what you're saying then, correct? That if someone dislikes GW and disapproves of their practices of late, then they automatically dislike 40k in general as well, right? Because that's what you're saying.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
And it makes no sense. At all.
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Post by: ExNoctemNacimur
Why not?
I love Warhammer Fantasy, 40k, and LOTR. The games are great fun and the models are awesome.
I do not like what GW are doing with their company, however, by raising prices and their apparent lack of concern for the people buying their stuff.
So whilst the game is great, I don't like the company.
It's like loving Mass Effect but hating EA.
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Post by: heartserenade
OverwatchCNC wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's only my opinion that hating GW =/= hating 40K? How does that even make any sense?
You're denying the possibility that someone can disagree with your statement?
Opinion =/= statement.
The sentence i wrote above is a statement. A statement contains truth value (it can either be true or false), while opinions do not. What HMBC said is a statement, not an opinion.
It's also entirely possible to hate the company and love the game, the same way you can hate your government but love your country.
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Post by: Piston Honda
WOTC getting a hold of any miniatures game would be a bad idea.
Just like every miniatures game they have 1 or 2 decent sets and try to squeeze out as much profit as possible with sub par miniatures. Material gets cheaper, pieces bending, reuse sculpts with different colors.
Starwars, DnD, Axis and Allies, War at Sea, dream blade, All started off nice but quality suffered greatly.
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Post by: OverwatchCNC
Fafnir wrote: OverwatchCNC wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's only my opinion that hating GW =/= hating 40K? How does that even make any sense?
You're denying the possibility that someone can disagree with your statement?
You do understand what you're saying then, correct? That if someone dislikes GW and disapproves of their practices of late, then they automatically dislike 40k in general as well, right? Because that's what you're saying.
heartserenade wrote: OverwatchCNC wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's only my opinion that hating GW =/= hating 40K? How does that even make any sense?
You're denying the possibility that someone can disagree with your statement?
Opinion =/= statement.
The sentence i wrote above is a statement. A statement contains truth value (it can either be true or false), while opinions do not. What HMBC said is a statement, not an opinion.
It's also entirely possible to hate the company and love the game, the same way you can hate your government but love your country.
Yes, I understand, let me explain further.
I almost always agree with H.M.B.C.
I almost always disagree with the way he says it. That is my point, I am not saying he is wrong or making an illogical assumption. The way he makes his point though is quite off putting.
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Post by: Fafnir
Yes, but what he said in that instance was a fact, not an opinion. You can take all the issue you want with how he says something, but that's not the point you originally made.
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Post by: Testify
Saldiven wrote:@Testify:
1. It isn't merely a question of making a product people like that determines if a company cares about it's customer base. If a company makes something that doesn't live up to their customers' expectation, then listens to the customers' concerns, and then adjusts their product to address those concerns, then that demonstrates that a company cares about their customers. Conversely, if a company makes a product that doesn't live up to their customers' expectations, then ignores the customers' concerns, then that indicates a company that doesn't care about their customers. Also, I was a member of those forums for years, and I don't remember any "give us free models" threads. People did complain about price increases, but that is a far cry from people asking for free stuff. The moderators could have easily posted a sticky thread explaining the reasoning behind the price increases and apologizing for the necessity, and it would have allayed 90% of the complaining, but GW instead merely locked any thread that addressed the subject. Just like they locked any thread that even mentioned Squats.
2. Not buying a product is kind of the last resort, and it's also the end result least desirable to a company. Most companies would far rather hear complaints about their business so that they can make adjustments to keep their customers happy rather than have their customers disappear without the company having an understanding of why. Customer complaints allow a company to know what the customer wants and how to better provide that experience. An old adage is that for every person who makes a positive comment to a company, there will be ten who complain. A related adage is that a satisfied customer will, on average, tell three people about their positive experience with a company, while a dissatisfied customer will, on average, tell ten people about their negative experience, so it behooves a company to keep far more happy customers than unhappy customers. People are, by and large, loyal to a brand, and they would much rather continue with that brand than look for another one; people would rather voice their concerns about a product, have their concerns addressed, and continue buying that product, but GW's current model doesn't give customer's a meaningful way to voice their concerns and have them addressed. One last business adage: It costs far less to retain an existing customer than it does to get a new customer.
3. GW's problem wasn't that they had a message board that was filled with negativity. The problem was that GW established a protocol of never addressing these negative comments. This makes the customer feel disenfranchised and feeds the negative feelings. Sometimes, in business, even if the company is completely in the right, the company still has to hold their hat in their proverbial hands and apologize for upsetting their customers. GW has categorically refused to do this. I've worked in banking for 15 years now, and the vast majority of what I do is regulated by the state or Federal governments. People complain to me all the time about something I had to do that was mandated by the law, but I still apologize for the inconvenience and try to explain the situation. What I do NOT do is ignore their concern.
...and yet people still buy GW. What does that tell you about the post-modern mantra of customer service? It seems a lot of people crave being fed corporate bs. Maybe they got hooked on it from everywhere else.
GW are a company who make stuff. If they've breached your consumer rights, you have every right to complain. But if you don't like how they act, don't buy from them. Automatically Appended Next Post: Fafnir wrote:
You do understand what you're saying then, correct? That if someone dislikes GW and disapproves of their practices of late, then they automatically dislike 40k in general as well, right? Because that's what you're saying.
There's a very strong correlation between people preaching about GW's evil on Dakka Discussions and people screaming butthurt in tactics/general. Automatically Appended Next Post: heartserenade wrote:
I was talking from a company's point of view, not from the consumer.
And what happens if your customer wants to buy something but was turned off by your company? It signals a loss sale that you could've made, and could still make if you can cater to the changes your customers want. Simple, no?
Because your end product wasn't good enough. Customer service is a part of the commodity, particularly so in the modern age.
It's really poor form, but judging from your other posts on other threads, at least you have consistency.
Nice to know personal attacks on dakka are allowed against anyone who disagrees with the neverending torrent of beard-rage.
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Post by: Pacific
Really good post, exalted!
Kingsly wrote:
GW doesn't care why some policy is more effective. It cares about the bottom line. If distributing free back massages in all GW stores and selling Forge World miniatures at 90% off was more profitable than what they're doing, GW would do that. It isn't, so they don't.
I completely agree with you here, although I feel I probably have a more customer-centric (or perhaps a little naive?) opinion on what the company should be doing, and where it could be doing something more than focusing just on the bottom line and 'damn all the rest.'
But yes if you were to argue that all of a company's revenue comes from first time buyers, who will stick with GW and then move on after 6 months, then why bother listening to any customer feedback? As long as the items being sold are appealing to that demographic, then in purely monetary concerns then GW are doing their job admirably.
But, how much of that is really the case? I acknowledge that most longer term players (myself included) have already spent most of their $ with GW on a large army, and then spend a lot of time fiddling with it (or perhaps just adding a character or two) and have since moved on. But there are not inconsiderable amount of regular posters here who we know spend many thousands of dollars on new releases and seriously consider each new army and release as it comes along. In that sense, if a new release could be regarded as 'not hitting the mark' (and this could apply for any reason - perhaps a poorly written codex, either background or rules, dislike of a new miniature aesthetic etc) then GW are losing money on it. You would have to therefore reason that it's in GW's best interests to know if this is the case.
I don't really want to bring Testify's posts into it (and to be honest, I'm amazed at how a user can post such empty vitriol for so long and continue to be allowed to post) but the oft-mentioned 'but you just hate everything' doesn't really hold water. Yes, there will be small percentage who will be impossibly to please, and visa-versa, but there is a whole, much larger grey area of community 'zeitgeist' that would nevertheless give a general impression of whether something is good or bad, and therefore likely to be embraced by the paying public. The Dark Eldar range for instance attracted almost universal praise for most of its new releases. On the other hand, it's already obvious that the new Dark Angel Land Speeder is going to go the way of the Chaos Minotaurs and other parts of the Chaos 40k range in attracting a high percentage of dissatisfied commentators. Now, of course things don't always shake-up with something being 'good' being popular (just look at the UK singles music chart over the Christmas period for instance) but nevertheless in a market that is becoming increasingly crowded it is not beneficial to be repeatedly releasing products that are falling short of customer expectations.
To be honest it feels a little ridiculous having to spell this out - we're just talking about market research here, marketing in general and regarding an industry that is worth unimaginable amounts of money as a cornerstone of the modern economic markets. If you're choosing (either wilfully or just through neglect) to not make the most of it, and that includes public-contact points such as forums (which I think most forward-thinking companies would have given their eye-teeth for 20 years ago) then I don't think many people educated in financial matters would say that you are doing a good thing for the long-term prospects of the company. Having some kind of public forum, as practically every other company in this industry has proven, would be immensely beneficial to both them and the fan base - I can't understand how anyone can think otherwise.
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Post by: Palindrome
Testify wrote:
...and yet people still buy GW. What does that tell you about the post-modern mantra of customer service?
Given that sales volumes have been dropping ever since the LotR bubble burst, quite a lot.
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Post by: Sigvatr
Testify wrote:Sigvatr wrote:
Oh wait, you mean like Bioware adding additional endings after a massive outburst by their fan base? The same Bioware that's part of EA, the biggest publisher around? The same Bioware that maintains a huge forum with regular developer feedback.
Making something that fans want and then selling it to them, that counts as "caring" to you?
The DLC was free. Get your facts straight. And even if they sold it: yes! That's how a company should work. Produce the stuff people want and you will sell more.
While there are (and were) threads like this, such as threads asking for AdMech or non-Cadian guard, these are in the overwealming minority. You can't expect GW to listen to them when they're drowned out 10 to 1 by butthurt and "pls give us free models".
Red Herring, not related to any post yet made on this matter.
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Post by: Mr. Burning
Kingsley wrote: Fafnir wrote:[I don't buy GW products anymore, and I haven't for a while now, but they'll never know why I stopped buying. With that in mind, they can do an endless amount of different things, but unless it addresses why I'm not buying their products anymore, they still won't be able to fix the issue.
You could solve that problem by writing a letter to GW and explaining why you don't buy anymore. It's possible that your input won't be taken in to account, but if many people all stop buying for the same reasons and complain, change could result.
In my opinion 1 or 1000 or 10,000 letters wouldn't see GW change the current course they seem to be set upon.
Any letter, regardless of eloquence, logic and fact (from writers perspective) would just be wasted.
'I am not buying x' 'I am buying x' would have equal standing and would get the same response. Stock words or none at all.
10,000 people decrying, for example, a ruleset still doesn't mean anything, they had to have brought it or played it at some time, GW's job is done.
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Post by: Sigvatr
 Mr. Burning wrote: Kingsley wrote: Fafnir wrote:[I don't buy GW products anymore, and I haven't for a while now, but they'll never know why I stopped buying. With that in mind, they can do an endless amount of different things, but unless it addresses why I'm not buying their products anymore, they still won't be able to fix the issue.
You could solve that problem by writing a letter to GW and explaining why you don't buy anymore. It's possible that your input won't be taken in to account, but if many people all stop buying for the same reasons and complain, change could result.
In my opinion 1 or 1000 or 10,000 letters wouldn't see GW change the current course they seem to be set upon.
Any letter, regardless of eloquence, logic and fact (from writers perspective) would just be wasted.
'I am not buying x' 'I am buying x' would have equal standing and would get the same response. Stock words or none at all.
10,000 people decrying, for example, a ruleset still doesn't mean anything, they had to have brought it or played it at some time, GW's job is done.
Exalted.
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Post by: SilverMK2
Testify wrote:But if you don't like how they act, don't buy from them.
And do you know what? I don't buy anything from GW. And I, like a number of other people now, rather than try to get people to play GW's games, tell them about other games like Infinity, PP, FoW, etc. Walking past my local GW every now and then over the last few years and it seems to get emptier and emptier as more of the older players leave and stop recruiting younger players.
Gaming clubs that used to be pretty much GW games only now have healthy groups playing other games - I think it was chormedog who said that the two gaming groups that he has historically attended have switched in the last 2 years to play a lot of Infinity. My local gaming store mostly has people playing card games - they very rarely have GW game events.
Once you hit a critical mass of players advocating other games you see things change more and more quickly. GW is doing nothing to stop people leave, and doing nothing to leave them feeling like they want to promote GW, and indeed are leaving them like they want to make sure people stear clear of GW.
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Post by: doc1234
Thought id throw in my 2 cents and offer we do kind of have this. Or at least someone got the local GW to sign onto the county wargaming board, to the point the 3 staffers are all acounted for and the store has their own sub-forum. Admitidly its mostly things like "game/event on this date" but theres still a smattering of "what does this mean" and what have you.
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Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That
I don't blame GW for not having a community rep. Imagine having to listen to somebody moan done the telephone about a certain Grey Knights character, or being forced to break up a flame war between two geeks arguing about Batman.
If it were me, I'd want to rip somebody's lungs out. This is one decision that GW has got spot on.
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Post by: heartserenade
Testify wrote:
Nice to know personal attacks on dakka are allowed against anyone who disagrees with the neverending torrent of beard-rage.
Testify wrote:Not buying something signals your dislike for the market. Or did they not teach you that in whatever arts class you attended?
Nice to know hypocrisy is rampant.
Please learn how to argue, for the sake of good discussion. Because what i said is true: you can't argue to save your life. Red herrings, strawmen and irrelevant arguments disguised as relevant. Really? It's insulting to those who wants a good discussion.
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Post by: NAVARRO
And thats a very positive thing if you ask me. ALL other competitors say thanks and me as a consumer that is more concerned with the overall health of this industry rather than GW share prices or profits also say Thanks GW! There's always a positive twist on the things most consider negative and in this case we don't even need to twist that much, it's all good.
The way I see it;
Little joe is introduced to wargaming by the mainstream GW, after a few starters and armies he starts to check alternatives, GW does nothing to keep him entertained, he goes elsewhere and is now a more informed wargamer. Win Win for Little Joe. It's not a linear thing because some are so into GW that are quite defensive/ passionate about it... well if it works for them then its OK.
All in all, GW got some money from Little Joe but is more interested on little Stuart now... while other companies will most likely get Big Joe disposable income in the future.
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Post by: cincydooley
And strangely, all the largest tournaments and conventions in the United States are still for 40k......
Well isn't that peculiar.
I still think its funny when people so adamantly compare privateer or (hahahhah) Corvus belli to GW. GW is larger than the next 4 largest manufacturing companies combined.
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Post by: scarletsquig
Since when do wifebeaters sit down and have a chat with their spouse about how they're feeling?
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Post by: Noir
 cincydooley wrote:And strangely, all the largest tournaments and conventions in the United States are still for 40k......
Well isn't that peculiar.
I still think its funny when people so adamantly compare privateer or (hahahhah) Corvus belli to GW. GW is larger than the next 4 largest manufacturing companies combined.
Then you look at how many less GW tournament and how many more other company tournament have grown in the last ten years. You see a trend. Then you look a the size of history wargames and see how small they GW and the others really are.
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Post by: insaniak
cincydooley wrote:And strangely, all the largest tournaments and conventions in the United States are still for 40k......
Well isn't that peculiar.
Not particularly, no. Given how long they were the only fish in the pool, it's not at all peculiar that the others haven't just taken over overnight.
It also has no bearing whatsoever on the comparative popularity of those other games... All it shows is that 40K has a larger tournament scene than other games. Which means nothing more than that more people are running tournaments for 40K than for other games.
Even just within the GW scene, tournament attendance proves nothing about sales. For a time, LOTR was outselling WHFB. But how many LOTR tournaments did you see?
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Post by: pitboy2710
They don't manage the store Facebook pages very well either. Any post that is a complaint or mentions other sites/ products gets your post removed. I had a post removed from my local stores page for mentioning Warhammer World and Forge World o.0
My cousin got a 24 hour ban from posting on there for asking for clarification on what can and cannot be posted!
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Post by: doc1234
pitboy2710 wrote:They don't manage the store Facebook pages very well either. Any post that is a complaint or mentions other sites/ products gets your post removed. I had a post removed from my local stores page for mentioning Warhammer World and Forge World o.0
My cousin got a 24 hour ban from posting on there for asking for clarification on what can and cannot be posted!
I got removed when 6ed allies charts etc came to light and said about guard/ nids for genestealer cult when someone asked why nids couldnt ally.
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Post by: nkelsch
 doc1234 wrote:pitboy2710 wrote:They don't manage the store Facebook pages very well either. Any post that is a complaint or mentions other sites/ products gets your post removed. I had a post removed from my local stores page for mentioning Warhammer World and Forge World o.0
My cousin got a 24 hour ban from posting on there for asking for clarification on what can and cannot be posted!
I got removed when 6ed allies charts etc came to light and said about guard/ nids for genestealer cult when someone asked why nids couldnt ally.
Sounds reasonable to me. Facebook pages are not for spammy discussion. It is for dissemination of store information, advertising the store and store events. If the facebook page was just rife with harmless chatter it defeats the purpose and makes it hard to use as well as spamming up newsfeeds.
I am on 2 GW store 'like' subscribes on facebook and they are fairly useful in telling me when products get in, events in the store and openings/closings. If there was any more on my feed, it would be annoying and defeat the purpose and then I would need to not follow it.
Discussing other stores? Go to those companies facebook walls.
Discussing other GW products? Go to those companies websites or facebook pages.
Discussing rules? not appropriate for the store's wall.
Being a general malcontent or complaining about corporate decisons? Not useful on a store wall as they cannot take your feedback and do anything with it, and they shouldn't deal with pointless comments.
I am glad they ban and remove worthless comments from the facebook pages. Makes them useful as a resource opposed to trashy and wasteful.
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Post by: Testify
The reaction to the guy who advertised a job on here, with no connection to GW whatsoever, tells you everything about the community's relation to GW.
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Post by: doc1234
nkelsch wrote: doc1234 wrote:pitboy2710 wrote:They don't manage the store Facebook pages very well either. Any post that is a complaint or mentions other sites/ products gets your post removed. I had a post removed from my local stores page for mentioning Warhammer World and Forge World o.0
My cousin got a 24 hour ban from posting on there for asking for clarification on what can and cannot be posted!
I got removed when 6ed allies charts etc came to light and said about guard/ nids for genestealer cult when someone asked why nids couldnt ally.
Sounds reasonable to me. Facebook pages are not for spammy discussion. It is for dissemination of store information, advertising the store and store events. If the facebook page was just rife with harmless chatter it defeats the purpose and makes it hard to use as well as spamming up newsfeeds.
I am on 2 GW store 'like' subscribes on facebook and they are fairly useful in telling me when products get in, events in the store and openings/closings. If there was any more on my feed, it would be annoying and defeat the purpose and then I would need to not follow it.
Discussing other stores? Go to those companies facebook walls.
Discussing other GW products? Go to those companies websites or facebook pages.
Discussing rules? not appropriate for the store's wall.
Being a general malcontent or complaining about corporate decisons? Not useful on a store wall as they cannot take your feedback and do anything with it, and they shouldn't deal with pointless comments.
I am glad they ban and remove worthless comments from the facebook pages. Makes them useful as a resource opposed to trashy and wasteful.
Actually they had first posted "why would any army need to ally with nids wouldnt make sense" after someone asked. Merely making a fluffy example of why. Plus youd be surprised, as i said earlier this is the same store that interacts with the local game community via a local forum for the area.
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Post by: pitboy2710
The GW company page can't be posted on. My local stores page actively ask for people to post tips and offer advise to other people on the page and to post images of what you have been working on.
But nowhere on the page is a there anything saying what can and cannot be posted leading to many people getting bans and not knowing why.
All comments and posts that i, my relatives, friends and other people who post there have always been polite since i have been frequenting the page.
My cousins post that resulted in a ban was asking for clarification so we could all avoid having post removed in the future. He asked politely and received a ban for his trouble
These posts and comments do not clutter the feed. They don't even show on other peoples walls. the only thing that gets shown is posts by GW themselves, If you actually look at the layout of the GW pages the recent posts is a small area on the right of the screen. The last 4 posts are visible and can be expanded if you want to read them.
Posts that have been removed include basic modeling tips using filling plaster, cork and platicard. I had a picture removed due to a hazy out of focus and barely in frame bottle of Vallejo paint in it.
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Post by: nkelsch
doc1234 wrote:
Actually they had first posted "why would any army need to ally with nids wouldnt make sense" after someone asked. Merely making a fluffy example of why. Plus youd be surprised, as i said earlier this is the same store that interacts with the local game community via a local forum for the area.
All the GWs and FLGS around me have 'clubs' or communities who have forums. That is a much better place for 'discussion.
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Post by: Testify
You wouldn't complain to the staff in your local GW about these things, I don't get why you think it's okay to harass the poor bastard who has to run the facebook page.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Who here thinks its ok to harass the Facebook guy?
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Post by: Fafnir
Evidently, well meaning conversation and genuine questions are 'harassment' these days.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Sorry Fafnir, I can't hear you over all the straw!
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Post by: Testify
Fafnir wrote:
Evidently, well meaning conversation and genuine questions are 'harassment' these days.
Harassment doesn't equate to abuse. I know what it's like to be working for someone and have people say stupid things like that to you. I also have no idea why you think GW are somehow worse than other countries. You're pissed off they don't have a guy spouting corporate bs all day just to keep you happy? For perspective, Gas companies in the UK outright lie about price rises in a poorly-regulated market. The fact that they have people on tv blaming the increases on the price of wholesale gas doesn't mean jack gak.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Fafnir wrote:
Evidently, well meaning conversation and genuine questions are 'harassment' these days.
Let's not pretend that is all that was going on.
There were claims from a few posters here on Dakka that the BecomeLegendaryNA guy was spamming and/or "using the community". There were also people who even after the guy explained he had no say over policy, etc continued to pester him about GW stuff being "overpriced".
There was indeed some genuine questioning and conversation going on. But there were also people who, as is usually the case when a company official posts in a third party setting, chose to vent their frustrations with the company on that individual.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Testify wrote:I also have no idea why you think GW are somehow worse than other countries.
Wait... wait... hold on. What? *filters thread to see only Fafnir's posts* Umm... where did he say GW is worse than other countries? I've just searched this thread for the words 'country', 'countries' and 'nation' and found it once in heartserenade's post (where he used the word as an example of hating the government/loving your country). The rest of your post is a bunch of nice big red fish but this... I must have missed it. Where did Fafnir say that he thinks GW are worse than other countries? And the let the record also show that I was one of the first to say "Give the guy a break, he's just doing his job".
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Post by: Testify
I meant "companies".
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Ok then.
*re-filters thread*
Nope. He didn't say that either.
You know what a "strawman" is, right? I don't have to break out the long-winded explanation?
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Post by: cincydooley
 insaniak wrote: cincydooley wrote:And strangely, all the largest tournaments and conventions in the United States are still for 40k......
Well isn't that peculiar.
Not particularly, no. Given how long they were the only fish in the pool, it's not at all peculiar that the others haven't just taken over overnight.
It also has no bearing whatsoever on the comparative popularity of those other games... All it shows is that 40K has a larger tournament scene than other games. Which means nothing more than that more people are running tournaments for 40K than for other games.
Even just within the GW scene, tournament attendance proves nothing about sales. For a time, LOTR was outselling WHFB. But how many LOTR tournaments did you see?
I hear what you're saying, but the fact that the GW tournament scene continues to grow is indicative of at least some growth in the player base. And let's not pretend that people playing in these growing tournaments aren't using new models. Plenty of people are running necron-air. Gotta buy some models for that.
And it's not like Privateer is any sort of new. That company has been around less than GW, sure, but they've still been around for more than 10 years. Do we see MULTIPLE very large tournaments where Warmahordes is the primary focus? No, we don't. And that ruleset is much better for tournament play!
Sure it's anecdotal, but the major 40k events at adepticon this year all sold out within the first day of registration. I don't think this can be discounted.....
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Post by: Laughing Man
cincydooley wrote: And it's not like Privateer is any sort of new. That company has been around less than GW, sure, but they've still been around for more than 10 years. Do we see MULTIPLE very large tournaments where Warmahordes is the primary focus? No, we don't. And that ruleset is much better for tournament play!
Warmachine Weekend, Lock and Load, DieCon, TempleCon, AdeptiCon... I can keep going if you like.
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Post by: Peregrine
Testify wrote:For perspective, Gas companies in the UK outright lie about price rises in a poorly-regulated market. The fact that they have people on tv blaming the increases on the price of wholesale gas doesn't mean jack gak.
Who gives a about gas companies. Compare GW's attitude towards the community to other gaming companies. MTG has constant real information posted on their weekly blogs, their own forums, efforts to support third-party efforts by giving preview cards to popular fan sites, mentioning third-party tournaments, etc. I don't play WM/H, but everything I've heard about those games is that the developers pay attention to the community. Depending on the video game you'll see developers having meaningful conversations on their forums, listening to feedback, etc.
 Kanluwen wrote:There was indeed some genuine questioning and conversation going on. But there were also people who, as is usually the case when a company official posts in a third party setting, chose to vent their frustrations with the company on that individual.
So pretty much GW doesn't have a community representative because their policies have generated so much outrage and they'd have to stop sucking before the could face the pubic again? And because it would be too much work to do things the right way they'll just hide out of sight and focus on selling space marines to 10 year olds?
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Post by: cincydooley
Laughing Man wrote: cincydooley wrote:
And it's not like Privateer is any sort of new. That company has been around less than GW, sure, but they've still been around for more than 10 years. Do we see MULTIPLE very large tournaments where Warmahordes is the primary focus? No, we don't. And that ruleset is much better for tournament play!
Warmachine Weekend, Lock and Load, DieCon, TempleCon, AdeptiCon... I can keep going if you like.
Clearly you missed the "primary focus" part of my statement.
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Post by: insaniak
cincydooley wrote:I hear what you're saying, but the fact that the GW tournament scene continues to grow is indicative of at least some growth in the player base.
No it isn't. All it indicates is that more people are playing in tournaments.
What I'm seeing a lot of these days is people who used to play in a store but that store closed down, or who used to play with a group of friends but the friends have all moved on, or who used to play at a gaming club but the club has either dwindled away or moved onto other games... and so they use tournaments as a way of getting in some sort of regular gaming. For a lot of these guys, where once they would be gaming every couple of weeks at worst, the tournies they enter are all the gaming they get to do.
That's not a sign of a healthy, growing community. It's the exact opposite of that.
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Post by: ExNoctemNacimur
But if you look internationally, is Warmachine as popular in, say, Ireland as the US? I know that where I live it isn't as popular as 40k, and if there is a WM/H player they usually also play 40k or Fantasy.
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Post by: Laughing Man
cincydooley wrote: Laughing Man wrote: cincydooley wrote:
And it's not like Privateer is any sort of new. That company has been around less than GW, sure, but they've still been around for more than 10 years. Do we see MULTIPLE very large tournaments where Warmahordes is the primary focus? No, we don't. And that ruleset is much better for tournament play!
Warmachine Weekend, Lock and Load, DieCon, TempleCon, AdeptiCon... I can keep going if you like.
Clearly you missed the "primary focus" part of my statement.
Two of the four are, TempleCon has 14 Warmachine tournaments in three days, and AdeptiCon runs as many WM/H tournaments as 40K (more if you don't count megabattles). Then we have GenCon, PAX, and other cons that hold numerous WM/H tournaments without requiring that the event be solely dedicated to the one system.
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Post by: Palindrome
 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:But if you look internationally, is Warmachine as popular in, say, Ireland as the US? I know that where I live it isn't as popular as 40k, and if there is a WM/H player they usually also play 40k or Fantasy.
Thats really not the issue. GW is still the biggest fish in the wargaming pond. However other fish are rapidly growing bigger while GW is shriking. PP and BF are far bigger today than ithey were 10 years ago, and they will likely be bigger still in another 10. If the current trends continue GW will be overtaken.
I have heard, but can't verify. that historicals also take up a significant proportion of the wargames played in the US, suppossedly they are more popular than Sci-FI/fantasy games.
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Post by: ExNoctemNacimur
Historicals though aren't really that great a comparison - loads of companies make historical miniatures and rulesets whilst only one company make GW models (well, you know what I mean) and rules for 40k, LOTR and Fantasy. Meanwhile there's Gripping Beast, Warlord Games, Wargames Factory etc. that make rules and models.
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Post by: Palindrome
I don't see anyting wrong with it as a comparison, afterall its not as if you need to use specific models for a specific game. The only PP models in my cygnar army are the warjacks while I had an Empire army planned, before I gave up on fantasy, that didn't have a single GW miniature in it.
Wargaming is wargaming.
Thats rather off topic though.
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Post by: cincydooley
Laughing Man wrote: cincydooley wrote: Laughing Man wrote: cincydooley wrote:
And it's not like Privateer is any sort of new. That company has been around less than GW, sure, but they've still been around for more than 10 years. Do we see MULTIPLE very large tournaments where Warmahordes is the primary focus? No, we don't. And that ruleset is much better for tournament play!
Warmachine Weekend, Lock and Load, DieCon, TempleCon, AdeptiCon... I can keep going if you like.
Clearly you missed the "primary focus" part of my statement.
Two of the four are, TempleCon has 14 Warmachine tournaments in three days, and AdeptiCon runs as many WM/H tournaments as 40K (more if you don't count megabattles). Then we have GenCon, PAX, and other cons that hold numerous WM/H tournaments without requiring that the event be solely dedicated to the one system.
Have you actually been to adepticon?? The amount of people playing 40k there simply dwarfs the amount of people playing Warmahordes. And it isn't even close.
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Post by: Monster Rain
It's almost as though people are making outlandish claims even though they don't know what they are talking about.
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Post by: boyd
 WarOne wrote:There will be a day when GW will have to account to the public, but that is not a day long coming when they continue to be successful and their IP strong.
The public? The Wargaming Community? Or Warhammer Players? The Company is supported by a niche community and doesn't really affect the overall public. Hence no real need to address the public at large.
If you saw what the forums were, how people treated the "Rulez Boyz", and others on the forums you'd understand why they just pulled the plug. You'd also know why Portent.net (aka Warseer) ran the GW personalities off of their board back in the mid to late 90s. They were damned if they did and damned if they didn't. The amount of hate they got for 3rd Edition was massive. Nobody like the AV rules, that armor saves didn't change based on the weapons you hit them with and that the points values for the models was halved. There is a ton of hate for GW out there. They used to do things the way PP does them now - they just took a lot of flack for it and decided it wasn't worth the effort. People tend to think the squeekiest wheel will get oiled works until they decide to garage the car and opt for a different mode of transportation. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Monster Rain wrote:It's almost as though people are making outlandish claims even though they don't know what they are talking about.
Combine that with Porn and that is the Internet in a nutshell. Automatically Appended Next Post: Peregrine wrote:
Compare GW's attitude towards the community to other gaming companies. MTG has constant real information posted on their weekly blogs, their own forums, efforts to support third-party efforts by giving preview cards to popular fan sites, mentioning third-party tournaments, etc.
MTG is great - its one of the only games out there that in order to play competitively, you need to buy and replace your cards every couple of years because at the competitive level you can't play with cards that are too old because they don't necessarily integrate with the latest edition. MTG relies on this form of marketing because they need to keep the hype up about their latest and greatest set.
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Post by: rigeld2
boyd wrote:MTG is great - its one of the only games out there that in order to play competitively, you need to buy and replace your cards every couple of years because at the competitive level you can't play with cards that are too old because they don't necessarily integrate with the latest edition. MTG relies on this form of marketing because they need to keep the hype up about their latest and greatest set.
They do integrate actually - there are Legacy tournaments where every set is able to be used.
It's jut the Standard tournaments that require only the current core + block. And iirc that started as a player convention almost 20 years ago.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
SurfPenguin wrote:OP, let me ask you a simple question: If you were running a company, would you want a phone line where, no matter when you picked it up any hour of the day you got nothing other than an endless string of insults, obscenities, and screaming demands that you essentially give your product away for free?
I can only pity anyone who honestly thinks this is what our community is and produces. To say I think this viewpoint is mistaken would be missing an opportunity to use "preposterous" and "ridiculously self-loathing". Who organizes all the cons and tournaments all over the world? The community does. Who wrote the INAT FAQs that tried to clarify things so people could play competitively and free of equivocation at the highest level? The community did. Who spends thousands and thousand of hours on conversions and fan-art, reinterpreting the 40k background in a thousand different ways? The community does.
We are the giants on whose shoulders the entire edifice is built. We're the people playing the games, painting the models, organizing the events. We're home to the good, the bad, the worst, and the best.
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Post by: Testify
Redacted by Mannahnin
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Post by: NAVARRO
To be honest people on this tread that keep saying that dakka and the community are a bunch of " insert nasty adjective" and then are part of both dakka and the comunity reminds me that some do have a very ugly view about themselves.
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Post by: Noir
But, he is right about who did all the stuff and it is not GW, it's us the people they treat like dirt after everything we have done over the year to promote there game. If they don't want people complaining they can, fix there massive broken game. Playtesting has been around forever, it is all GW fault if they are to dumb to have a large trusted playtester base for the games.
And to the guy that ask would I take it up with a store cleck, if I have a problem with the company they work for. YES, YES I would, becouse (and this gose for any store) they are a representative of the company. If the don't know the answer, then there company didn't train them right, even more so if they deal with there customers on a daily base.
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Post by: mattyrm
Games Workshop "treat people like dirt"?
Do GW have short comings? Sure.
Is some of their stuff ridiculously overpriced? It is in my book.. So I don't buy it.
But please tell me, how do you define being treated like dirt?
How many times have I said it now? Games workshop is merely another corporate entity, why do hobbyists feel so entitled?
Walmart owes me nothing, Ford owes me nothing, and games workshop owes me nothing.. Why do you think that a big ass company is treating you like dirt because they merely make stuff and try to sell you it?
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Post by: spaceelf
mattyrm wrote: Games Workshop "treat people like dirt"?
Do GW have short comings? Sure.
Is some of their stuff ridiculously overpriced? It is in my book.. So I don't buy it.
But please tell me, how do you define being treated like dirt?
How many times have I said it now? Games workshop is merely another corporate entity, why do hobbyists feel so entitled?
Walmart owes me nothing, Ford owes me nothing, and games workshop owes me nothing.. Why do you think that a big ass company is treating you like dirt because they merely make stuff and try to sell you it?
I have heard from multiple sources in the company that GW managers have assaulted employees and that GW employees have assaulted customers. Yeah, I would say they treat people like dirt.
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Post by: insaniak
mattyrm wrote: But please tell me, how do you define being treated like dirt?
I've never personally made that claim, but if I were going to, I might hold up being charged twice as much for miniatures as anyone else because of where I live, being told that I can only buy from the stores that GW want me to buy from, being charged £60 to ship a pot of paint from their webstore, being kept in the dark about upcoming releases, being charged $120 for an unfinished rulebook, being charged twice as much for digital downloads as the rest of the world despite them being downloaded from the same website as everyone else, being fed nonsense like 'Online stores do nothing to grow the hobby' by a company that no longer supports community events while a lot of those 'freeloading' online stores do, and that you have to provide somewhere for people to play in order to be supporting the hobby... by a company that is removing gaming space from their stores...
The problem with GW isn't that they make stuff and try to sell it to me. It's that they really seem to be going out of their way to make it harder for me to (a) buy their stuff and (b) want to.
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Post by: Brother Gyoken
I don't know why people are still arguing. Clearly no other company in the history of the Internet (Blizzard) has ever been so reviled (Blizzard) and bothered having an Internet presence (Blizzard) because they (Blizzard) would surely be ripped apart by angry trolls.
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Post by: Noir
mattyrm wrote: Games Workshop "treat people like dirt"?
Do GW have short comings? Sure.
Is some of their stuff ridiculously overpriced? It is in my book.. So I don't buy it.
But please tell me, how do you define being treated like dirt?
How many times have I said it now? Games workshop is merely another corporate entity, why do hobbyists feel so entitled?
Walmart owes me nothing, Ford owes me nothing, and games workshop owes me nothing.. Why do you think that a big ass company is treating you like dirt because they merely make stuff and try to sell you it?
Like dirt lets see... My 100% GW model army no long let played in GW stores becouse they no longer support it, or letting us play Blood Bowl or the rest, dispite them still selling almost ever line.
Telling us you have to what for WD for that info, while online web site post the new days early.
Selling us Finecraft, knowing it is substanderd product, while telling us how great it is and cheeper to make then charge us the same and sometime more. The whole time knowing it was a stop gap as they change everything over to plastic.
There are some dirty move, now can you point out what some of the thing they done to try to get us back. And don't bring up the replacement parts, as thats is the law and not doing it will cost them way more then the part.
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Post by: cincydooley
 spaceelf wrote:
I have heard from multiple sources in the company that GW managers have assaulted employees and that GW employees have assaulted customers. Yeah, I would say they treat people like dirt.
Well this is one of the more absurd things I've read on dakka lately. Congrats!
My Oz brethren: I can completely empathize with you. Its completely unfair.
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Post by: Rainbow Dash
Noir wrote: mattyrm wrote: Games Workshop "treat people like dirt"?
Do GW have short comings? Sure.
Is some of their stuff ridiculously overpriced? It is in my book.. So I don't buy it.
But please tell me, how do you define being treated like dirt?
How many times have I said it now? Games workshop is merely another corporate entity, why do hobbyists feel so entitled?
Walmart owes me nothing, Ford owes me nothing, and games workshop owes me nothing.. Why do you think that a big ass company is treating you like dirt because they merely make stuff and try to sell you it?
Like dirt lets see... My 100% GW model army no long let played in GW stores becouse they no longer support it, or letting us play Blood Bowl or the rest, dispite them still selling almost ever line.
Telling us you have to what for WD for that info, while online web site post the new days early.
Selling us Finecraft, knowing it is substanderd product, while telling us how great it is and cheeper to make then charge us the same and sometime more. The whole time knowing it was a stop gap as they change everything over to plastic.
There are some dirty move, now can you point out what some of the thing they done to try to get us back. And don't bring up the replacement parts, as thats is the law and not doing it will cost them way more then the part.
I`ve never been told I can`t play any of my old armies (all my armies are old) bloodbowl and such was allowed but not during the set times the other games had, we played it on Wednesday, the quiet day lol
maybe the GW`s in Canada are nicer, I donno
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Post by: Noir
 Rainbow Dash wrote:Noir wrote: mattyrm wrote: Games Workshop "treat people like dirt"?
Do GW have short comings? Sure.
Is some of their stuff ridiculously overpriced? It is in my book.. So I don't buy it.
But please tell me, how do you define being treated like dirt?
How many times have I said it now? Games workshop is merely another corporate entity, why do hobbyists feel so entitled?
Walmart owes me nothing, Ford owes me nothing, and games workshop owes me nothing.. Why do you think that a big ass company is treating you like dirt because they merely make stuff and try to sell you it?
Like dirt lets see... My 100% GW model army no long let played in GW stores becouse they no longer support it, or letting us play Blood Bowl or the rest, dispite them still selling almost ever line.
Telling us you have to what for WD for that info, while online web site post the new days early.
Selling us Finecraft, knowing it is substanderd product, while telling us how great it is and cheeper to make then charge us the same and sometime more. The whole time knowing it was a stop gap as they change everything over to plastic.
There are some dirty move, now can you point out what some of the thing they done to try to get us back. And don't bring up the replacement parts, as thats is the law and not doing it will cost them way more then the part.
I`ve never been told I can`t play any of my old armies (all my armies are old) bloodbowl and such was allowed but not during the set times the other games had, we played it on Wednesday, the quiet day lol
maybe the GW`s in Canada are nicer, I donno
It must be nice you don't own Squats or would like to run them as the army you bought them as. The other games you were lucky if GW let you play Spacehulk in the store for about 2 month after the game can out.
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Post by: Bullockist
Positivity and engagement generate positive results. I have no idea why GW has no representative, sure it would be hard for a few years but it would pay off.
Look at this post on PP boards. All they are doing is having a staff tourney and using it to publicise/engage the public.
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?132449-OFFICIAL-SR-2013-Beta-Privateer-Staff-Tournament-12-15-12
and it works.
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Post by: Rainbow Dash
I did own squats, they were chaos squats and were used in my old lost and the damned army
I spent months, more then a year making that lost and the damned army, converted every model and now its worthless
my mortal-beast-demon chaos fantasy army- worthless
my snotling army - worthless
feral orks, you get the idea
dont just assume you are the only one who had an army that was dropped completely
I have lots that I have no use for and never will again
things i spent so much time on and loved playing
I bought dreadfleet knowing full well I would never play it in store, but I had friends who were interested and i think it paid off
i never bought space hulk because i knew i would not be able to play it soon after and had no friends who were interested
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Post by: Noir
Rainbow Dash wrote:I did own squats, they were chaos squats and were used in my old lost and the damned army
I spent months, more then a year making that lost and the damned army, converted every model and now its worthless
my mortal-beast-demon chaos fantasy army- worthless
my snotling army - worthless
feral orks, you get the idea
dont just assume you are the only one who had an army that was dropped completely
I have lots that I have no use for and never will again
things i spent so much time on and loved playing
I bought dreadfleet knowing full well I would never play it in store, but I had friends who were interested and i think it paid off
i never bought space hulk because i knew i would not be able to play it soon after and had no friends who were interested
So you use them in GW store as the army you bought them for still? You last post and this one seem offf some how.
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Post by: Rainbow Dash
no those armies have been shelved
my point was I was saying the one I used to go to, before i moved, seemed nicer then the ones described by many here
I don`t know if the one here is as nice, ive only been there once
and what do you mean, off somehow
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Post by: Ravenous D
-Getting charged in relation to the british pound despite all my products being made and shipped from the US
-The atrocious behaviour of their managers and employees
-"historical exchange rates"
-Digital downloads that cost the same as the real copy
-Embargos
-Telling everyone they found a better cheaper material, then up the cost to the customer to pay for the molds and machines, thats like me charging my customers an extra $50 each to pay for a new stencil cutter.
-Yearly price rises
-Thier store policies killing communities and just being borderline facist
-The fact they are doing nothing to fix how they are seen, saying " you" I'll do it my way isnt a great way to keep people
mattyrm wrote:Do GW have short comings? Sure.
Is some of their stuff ridiculously overpriced? It is in my book.. So I don't buy it.
But please tell me, how do you define being treated like dirt?
How many times have I said it now? Games workshop is merely another corporate entity, why do hobbyists feel so entitled?
Walmart owes me nothing, Ford owes me nothing, and games workshop owes me nothing.. Why do you think that a big ass company is treating you like dirt because they merely make stuff and try to sell you it?
It has nothing to do with entitled, very few companies act like evil empires in the way GW does. It seems they go out of their way to screw with people and make it more difficult to buy from them and support them.
Mazda owes me nothing, but they've gone above and beyond to keep my car running perfectly, and when I go to buy a new version of my car it'll cost less because of trade in and LOYALTY rewards. I can buy a product at walmart, open it, decide its crap and return it without having some ass tell me I should buy Walmart green glue to fix it then giving me a hard time when I refuse.
Also, last time I checked if a car company makes a crap part they recall it for being complete junk, and will replace it with the better version for free.
insaniak wrote: cincydooley wrote:I hear what you're saying, but the fact that the GW tournament scene continues to grow is indicative of at least some growth in the player base.
No it isn't. All it indicates is that more people are playing in tournaments.
What I'm seeing a lot of these days is people who used to play in a store but that store closed down, or who used to play with a group of friends but the friends have all moved on, or who used to play at a gaming club but the club has either dwindled away or moved onto other games... and so they use tournaments as a way of getting in some sort of regular gaming. For a lot of these guys, where once they would be gaming every couple of weeks at worst, the tournies they enter are all the gaming they get to do.
That's not a sign of a healthy, growing community. It's the exact opposite of that.
It is most certainly not continuing to grow, its imploding, its been on the decline for 12 years now, I remember 240 man grand tournaments with constant monthly tournaments that pulled easily 30 people drop down to next to nothing, with the exception of adepticon the tournaments are dying. Which is sad, because outside of those you never see a properly painted army or a good general.
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Post by: spaceelf
cincydooley wrote: spaceelf wrote:
I have heard from multiple sources in the company that GW managers have assaulted employees and that GW employees have assaulted customers. Yeah, I would say they treat people like dirt.
Well this is one of the more absurd things I've read on dakka lately. Congrats!
It is not so absurd if you consider that their annual meetings involved the consumption of large amounts of alcohol, and living with more than one person to a room. In the stores redshirts were dropped in surprise games of punch buggy. Getting hit by an adult ex military guy is much different than getting hit by a kid.
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Post by: nkelsch
Ravenous D wrote:
Also, last time I checked if a car company makes a crap part they recall it for being complete junk, and will replace it with the better version for free.
Actually, most auto companies release 'known issues' as secret 'service bulletins' which tell mechanics there is a flaw which needs to be fix but because it is not a recall, they force the customer to pay for the repairs. They do their best to avoid making it public so the cost of repairs is shouldered by the unwitting public.
Only time they do a recall is when they basically get caught or shamed into it either by the issue being dangerous or numerous that they can't ignore it. They are not issuing a recall out of the goodness of their heart, they are mostly forced to either by a government entity or the backlash would be too much to ignore.
Forgien car companies are notorious for this in the US and I have had a legal run-in with Volkswagen due to sensor failures being a known issue in service bulletin but forcing me to pay for the repairs because it was not a 'recall'. Took years of complaining before they finally issued a recall and I had grounds to get a refund for all my previous repairs.
So to claim other companies strive to release quality products and replace flaws free of cost is disingenuous... they almost never fix anything for free unless being forced to, especially non safety issues. It is actually the business model to release products which are flawed or break easily to justify replacement.
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Post by: Ravenous D
Well add that to another plus for mazda then, they replace all of those for me for free. Car is 7 years old with 320K on it and Ive only had to do the brakes a couple times.
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Post by: nkelsch
Ravenous D wrote:Well add that to another plus for mazda then, they replace all of those for me for free. Car is 7 years old with 320K on it and Ive only had to do the brakes a couple times.
You probably paid a pretty up-front cost when you bought the car called a 'warranty' they don't do it for free. Or they forced you to get a warranty with an inflated cost of the car and financing.
Nothing is 'for free'. They are making a profit somewhere on the repairs in the long run across the market.
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Post by: cincydooley
And in regards to repairs: give me a break. If you have a problem with a GW product you purchased, they replace it for you no questions asked. Their customer service in this regard is impeccable.
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Post by: malfred
I wish their customer service included working on their game rules.
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Post by: SilverMK2
cincydooley wrote:And in regards to repairs: give me a break. If you have a problem with a GW product you purchased, they replace it for you no questions asked. Their customer service in this regard is impeccable.
I've heard their replacement of finecast models has become stricter in the last year or so, rather than no questions asked.
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Post by: Ravenous D
cincydooley wrote:And in regards to repairs: give me a break. If you have a problem with a GW product you purchased, they replace it for you no questions asked. Their customer service in this regard is impeccable.
Oh yeah? Guess you havent experienced their finecrap policy where they have to try and sell you liquid greenstuff and give you a hard time about it before returning it. They get to determine if its "returnable" or not. Plastic they've always been good on, but finecast? Nope, they are douchelords over that now.
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Post by: Noir
cincydooley wrote:And in regards to repairs: give me a break. If you have a problem with a GW product you purchased, they replace it for you no questions asked. Their customer service in this regard is impeccable.
The law says they have to, and they are no better then most miniature companys.
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Post by: AduroT
cincydooley wrote: Laughing Man wrote: cincydooley wrote: Laughing Man wrote: cincydooley wrote:
And it's not like Privateer is any sort of new. That company has been around less than GW, sure, but they've still been around for more than 10 years. Do we see MULTIPLE very large tournaments where Warmahordes is the primary focus? No, we don't. And that ruleset is much better for tournament play!
Warmachine Weekend, Lock and Load, DieCon, TempleCon, AdeptiCon... I can keep going if you like.
Clearly you missed the "primary focus" part of my statement.
Two of the four are, TempleCon has 14 Warmachine tournaments in three days, and AdeptiCon runs as many WM/H tournaments as 40K (more if you don't count megabattles). Then we have GenCon, PAX, and other cons that hold numerous WM/H tournaments without requiring that the event be solely dedicated to the one system.
Have you actually been to adepticon?? The amount of people playing 40k there simply dwarfs the amount of people playing Warmahordes. And it isn't even close.
That's because they won't make the Warmachine events bigger even though they sell out really fast.
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Post by: malfred
I think the size of warmachine events is about time constraints
more than anything else. Warmachine events play to a single
undefeated winner. It's hard to host single-day events beyond
64 (6 rounds) or 128 (7 rounds) people.
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Post by: AduroT
True and valid. I just wanted to point out the fallacy of the "there's less Warmachine players" argument when the number of Warmachine players are effectively caped and could exceed the current numbers at Adepticon easily if given the chance.
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Post by: Rainbow Dash
Ravenous D wrote: cincydooley wrote:And in regards to repairs: give me a break. If you have a problem with a GW product you purchased, they replace it for you no questions asked. Their customer service in this regard is impeccable.
Oh yeah? Guess you havent experienced their finecrap policy where they have to try and sell you liquid greenstuff and give you a hard time about it before returning it. They get to determine if its "returnable" or not. Plastic they've always been good on, but finecast? Nope, they are douchelords over that now.
yeah I have refused, often to their faces to buy finecast because of that policy
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Post by: nkelsch
Rainbow Dash wrote: Ravenous D wrote: cincydooley wrote:And in regards to repairs: give me a break. If you have a problem with a GW product you purchased, they replace it for you no questions asked. Their customer service in this regard is impeccable.
Oh yeah? Guess you haven't experienced their finecrap policy where they have to try and sell you liquid greenstuff and give you a hard time about it before returning it. They get to determine if its "returnable" or not. Plastic they've always been good on, but finecast? Nope, they are douchelords over that now.
yeah I have refused, often to their faces to buy finecast because of that policy
I think people are 'making up' this policy considering the 3 GWs near me all allow you to open and pre-inspect for flaws of all finecast stuff. They also inspect all blisters before put on the peg and send the damaged ones back to GW.
If it is flawed, they fix it... What I think you may find is people buy online from internet discounters then attempt to exchange in-store. Just like *every other company out there* if you have a failure with a product, you return it to the person who sold it to you.
I always find it funny how people who are so extreme in their hatred of GW and claim to never play there or shop there always seem to have these worst case scenario examples of them being in the store. I am sorry, I don't buy it because there is overwhelming evidence of GW having amazing customer service, even in relation to finecast.
And liquid GS is a product which has a great use regardless of Finecast and is useful for assembling metal and plastic models. I do not think there is an expectation to 'buy LGS' to fix the finecast yourself. They replace models frequently... And if you bought it from GW you then have your receipt unless you are attempting to execute fraud.
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Post by: Rainbow Dash
I`ve been playing GW games for 12 years now, and going to GW for 10 or so of them, I have seen many things and not just tossing out crap.
Though the GWs I went to were great to me, I was eventually priced out and moved on to other hobbies
I have seen the good and the bad. Perhaps I am jaded (I know I am jaded) by GWs changing over the years, how expensive its become, how much I dislike most of their games and complete ignoring of others and shoddy materials -if i wanted resin i`d just buy from forgeworld, where the kits are much nicer, and not that much more expensive nowadays
its hard to really explain i guess, about a feeling when youve seen a hobby you started as a kid turn and twist from something you liked and put so much into, to turn into something you disliked and what you once liked was gone or taken by rule changes, power gaming or just the natural progression.
Am I right about what I think, I donno, its my opinion though.
a hobby, to me, should be more then just buying something and thats the end of it. you have to commit to it, time, effort. Its fine and well GW wants to make money like any company in this world, if they didnt there`d be no Warhammer. But as it stands now, whats the intensive to want to buy, a company has to give you a reason, something to make you want to buy what they are selling.
With GW, to me, these days its seems like ``here buy this overpriced, flimsy resin model and play a game we blatantly shift rules to in favour of what we want to sell, then leave``
12 years into this, I still enjoy the models, I paint them all the time, but the games are borderline unplayable to me. This doesnt at all feel like a hobby, its just model kits that sit on a shelf, like my star trek ships.
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Post by: Sidstyler
I bought all my Finecast from a local store. Not allowed to open boxes to pre-inspect, everything goes on the shelf miscast or not, and in my experience it's not always easy to tell when you're getting a flawed model even when you can see through the blister window. I've had one or two where the majority of the flaws were on the non-visible side, or the way the sprues were stacked in the blister made it impossible to see much detail and you were just straight-up taking a risk by buying it.
When asked I was told if I had any issues to call GW about them. So much for "every company out there", I guess. Also nice to see people once again falling back on that same old bs, calling everyone liars because they personally haven't bought crap Finecast models. I thought we were over this by now.
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Post by: cincydooley
 AduroT wrote:True and valid. I just wanted to point out the fallacy of the "there's less Warmachine players" argument when the number of Warmachine players are effectively caped and could exceed the current numbers at Adepticon easily if given the chance.
I'm going to call BS on that one.
The team tourney has 400 some players and sells out within an hour or so.
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Post by: nkelsch
Sidstyler wrote:I bought all my Finecast from a local store. Not allowed to open boxes to pre-inspect, everything goes on the shelf miscast or not, and in my experience it's not always easy to tell when you're getting a flawed model even when you can see through the blister window. I've had one or two where the majority of the flaws were on the non-visible side, or the way the sprues were stacked in the blister made it impossible to see much detail and you were just straight-up taking a risk by buying it.
When asked I was told if I had any issues to call GW about them. So much for "every company out there", I guess. Also nice to see people once again falling back on that same old bs, calling everyone liars because they personally haven't bought crap Finecast models. I thought we were over this by now.
When you buy a product, like a vacuum cleaner, or a stove, or some other item, if it is broken, you return it to the retailer you bought it from, not to the company who made the item. I don't know why there is expectation that somehow GW products differ.
I do like that people with an axe to grind can make up and 'define' what GW's policy is but when people have exact opposite experience which shows no such policy of 'keep your flawed product and buy Liquid GS and suck it up' it makes it extremely hard to believe. Especially when the LAW requires them to take it back, especially if you have a receipt and bought it in the store. You are allowed to return a flawed product and technically with a receipt, you could buy it, open it right there, find the flaw and demand a refund or exchange.
So for GW to have policies that break the law, doesn't sound truthful. I do believe people buy stuff online from discounters then attempt to exchange or return it to a different retailer from where they bought it and attempt to defraud GW or FLGS... and I would expect resistance from any store who feels the person is defrauding them.
If you bought it there and have a receipt, you can always get a replacement or refund.
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Post by: Alfndrate
I bought an Empire Witch Hunter and couldn't return it to the store I bought it from, he told me to contact GW because there was nothing he could really do about it.
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Post by: malfred
cincydooley wrote: AduroT wrote:True and valid. I just wanted to point out the fallacy of the "there's less Warmachine players" argument when the number of Warmachine players are effectively caped and could exceed the current numbers at Adepticon easily if given the chance.
I'm going to call BS on that one.
The team tourney has 400 some players and sells out within an hour or so.
It's the signature event of the convention
I've always been curious to see if PP players would come out for a 4-man team event
with character restrictions and various combinations. Could be hilarious.
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Post by: Sidstyler
The very first Finecast models I got were a box of incubi from my local (non- GW) store, and when I took the box to the counter to pay for it after clearly pulling it off the shelf in plain view of him, we got into a bit of chat about Finecast. He said he heard good things about it, I told him I saw some scary pictures online and wasn't quite so confident, and that was when he told me that if I did have any problems with my box to call GW about it, don't return it to them.
I don't know why that is honestly, but considering that GW has always been happy to fix any issues it was never really that big of a problem before Finecast. Anyway, I don't deal with GW stores, and it'll be a long time before I buy another Finecast model, so if their policies have changed or they do treat Finecast returns differently now I personally wouldn't know.
nkelsch wrote:When you buy a product, like a vacuum cleaner, or a stove, or some other item, if it is broken, you return it to the retailer you bought it from, not to the company who made the item. I don't know why there is expectation that somehow GW products differ.
That's strange, because I bought a wireless headset from Game Stop not too long ago and inside the package came a slip of paper that said "STOP: Do not return the product where you purchased it from. If you have questions setting up this product or experiencing any issues contact ______". Apparently it's not just GW products, and I'd care to wager it's not that uncommon of a thing, but most people probably take it back to the retailer regardless, and I imagine most retailers probably don't give them any hassle in the interest of good faith.
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Post by: jonolikespie
nkelsch wrote: Sidstyler wrote:I bought all my Finecast from a local store. Not allowed to open boxes to pre-inspect, everything goes on the shelf miscast or not, and in my experience it's not always easy to tell when you're getting a flawed model even when you can see through the blister window. I've had one or two where the majority of the flaws were on the non-visible side, or the way the sprues were stacked in the blister made it impossible to see much detail and you were just straight-up taking a risk by buying it.
When asked I was told if I had any issues to call GW about them. So much for "every company out there", I guess. Also nice to see people once again falling back on that same old bs, calling everyone liars because they personally haven't bought crap Finecast models. I thought we were over this by now.
When you buy a product, like a vacuum cleaner, or a stove, or some other item, if it is broken, you return it to the retailer you bought it from, not to the company who made the item. I don't know why there is expectation that somehow GW products differ.
I do like that people with an axe to grind can make up and 'define' what GW's policy is but when people have exact opposite experience which shows no such policy of 'keep your flawed product and buy Liquid GS and suck it up' it makes it extremely hard to believe. Especially when the LAW requires them to take it back, especially if you have a receipt and bought it in the store. You are allowed to return a flawed product and technically with a receipt, you could buy it, open it right there, find the flaw and demand a refund or exchange.
So for GW to have policies that break the law, doesn't sound truthful. I do believe people buy stuff online from discounters then attempt to exchange or return it to a different retailer from where they bought it and attempt to defraud GW or FLGS... and I would expect resistance from any store who feels the person is defrauding them.
If you bought it there and have a receipt, you can always get a replacement or refund.
My understanding of GWs finecast policy is they HAVE to replace it if you ask for it. That doesn't mean they will do it without question though.
The law might say they have to replace it but it does not stop them trying to tell you all it needs is a layer of liquid greenstuff or that the bubbles are added texture and would look cool (yes, this happened to me, the redshirt then told me "it seems unlikely the next one will meet your expectations either so why don't I just give you a refund").
We don't know their official policy but we do know from experience that they push fixing it (with liquid greenstuff) before swapping it for you.
As to the comment about returning things like vaccum cleaners to the store, not the company:
Alfndrate wrote: I bought an Empire Witch Hunter and couldn't return it to the store I bought it from, he told me to contact GW because there was nothing he could really do about it.
GW are trying to be the store and the company, in their perfect world people would only buy from them and not the "freeloading" 3rd party stores.
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Post by: Sidstyler
Yeah, perhaps independent retailers have to eat the costs and thus refer you to GW instead. Just guessing here, but I don't really know why else they'd do that.
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Post by: jonolikespie
Sidstyler wrote:Yeah, perhaps independent retailers have to eat the costs and thus refer you to GW instead. Just guessing here, but I don't really know why else they'd do that.
I have a theory GW forces flgs to send customers to them with these complaints because GW thinks flgs are evil.
I know that with finecast if I have to buy it I'll do it in a GW store to get it replaced there and then. It's probably a cynical viewpoint but I wouldn't be surprised if that was exactly their intention.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
 scarletsquig wrote:Since when do wifebeaters sit down and have a chat with their spouse about how they're feeling?
I know you're trying to make a legitimate point about people (let's not call GW customers "victims") who find themselves in negative situations and spend their energy justifying their actions (let's not call it complicity) instead of leaving, but could we please really not go this far? GW customers are still customers, not victims, not without agency, not comparable to battered wives. You can call it Stockholm Syndrome. You can call it a scam. Just please don't lower the level of discourse by comparing a customer who buys overpriced goods from a hostile store to a victim of actual abuse.
If anyone's going to lower the discourse around here, it should be me.
Thank you.
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Post by: AduroT
cincydooley wrote: AduroT wrote:True and valid. I just wanted to point out the fallacy of the "there's less Warmachine players" argument when the number of Warmachine players are effectively caped and could exceed the current numbers at Adepticon easily if given the chance.
I'm going to call BS on that one.
The team tourney has 400 some players and sells out within an hour or so.
Doesn't the selling out within the hour thing kind of make my point that they could probably sell a lot more if there wasn't a limit?
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Post by: mattyrm
 BobtheInquisitor wrote: scarletsquig wrote:Since when do wifebeaters sit down and have a chat with their spouse about how they're feeling?
I know you're trying to make a legitimate point about people (let's not call GW customers "victims") who find themselves in negative situations and spend their energy justifying their actions (let's not call it complicity) instead of leaving, but could we please really not go this far? GW customers are still customers, not victims, not without agency, not comparable to battered wives. You can call it Stockholm Syndrome. You can call it a scam. Just please don't lower the level of discourse by comparing a customer who buys overpriced goods from a hostile store to a victim of actual abuse.
If anyone's going to lower the discourse around here, it should be me.
Thank you.
Very well said.
The very small minority of really vitriolic haters (I can only think of maybe 4 or 5 guys) on here call even me, a guy who doesn't own any finecast, hates white dwarf, thinks half of what the company do is stupid, and has dropped more than 50% of his mini spending the last 2 years on Mantic, a "white knight" (not a term Id heard before coming here) simply because I debate the point with them.
I debate the point with them, not because I even like GW, but because I really hate their gak attitude. It started when I first got here and I saw a couple of them ripping the piss out of one poster and slapping each other on the back as they were needlessly rude to someone just because he dared to disagree with them about how much of a disgusting company Games Workshop is.
They grind my gears for the exact same reason that you have just posted.
There really is no need for the vitriol and hate, and as a result I like to lock horns with them. Comparing Games Workshop trying hard to sell their toys/having a somewhat incompetent upper echelon of management (I probably even agree with them on that one!) with "treating people like dirt" or battered wives or rape victims or any of the other stupid gak they come out with is not only cringingly pathetic, its fething offensive to the vast majority of people.. that is, the 99% of people who frequent the board who treat the hobby as it should be treated, a pleasant past time, and not a crippling addiction that you love so much you also kind of hate it.
As Ive said, it seems to me the term plastic crack is a good one, because the people that act in such a manner really do remind me of heroin addicts, (they get so angry because they both love and hate GW/heroin at the same time) and frankly I fear for their mental health.
Anyone who owns 38,000 points worth of GW models, but spends all day raging about the company that sold them it.. I mean really.. is it any different from a junkie who knows that Heroin is utterly destroying his health and life, but will rob his own mother to get some?
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Post by: Starfarer
mattyrm wrote:
Very well said.
The very small minority of really vitriolic haters (I can only think of maybe 4 or 5 guys) on here call even me, a guy who doesn't own any finecast, hates white dwarf, thinks half of what the company do is stupid, and has dropped more than 50% of his mini spending the last 2 years on Mantic, a "white knight" (not a term Id heard before coming here) simply because I debate the point with them.
I debate the point with them, not because I even like GW, but because I really hate their gak attitude. It started when I first got here and I saw a couple of them ripping the piss out of one poster and slapping each other on the back as they were needlessly rude to someone just because he dared to disagree with them about how much of a disgusting company Games Workshop is.
They grind my gears for the exact same reason that you have just posted.
There really is no need for the vitriol and hate, and as a result I like to lock horns with them. Comparing Games Workshop trying hard to sell their toys/having a somewhat incompetent upper echelon of management (I probably even agree with them on that one!) with "treating people like dirt" or battered wives or rape victims or any of the other stupid gak they come out with is not only cringingly pathetic, its fething offensive to the vast majority of people.. that is, the 99% of people who frequent the board who treat the hobby as it should be treated, a pleasant past time, and not a crippling addiction that you love so much you also kind of hate it.
As Ive said, it seems to me the term plastic crack is a good one, because the people that act in such a manner really do remind me of heroin addicts, (they get so angry because they both love and hate GW/heroin at the same time) and frankly I fear for their mental health.
Anyone who owns 38,000 points worth of GW models, but spends all day raging about the company that sold them it.. I mean really.. is it any different from a junkie who knows that Heroin is utterly destroying his health and life, but will rob his own mother to get some?
Damn, man, I think you just summed up my feelings exactly. I've kind of given up posting here, aside from P&M Logs, cause it's just too negative to waste my time on.
Kind of funny when you call this out, the argument is, "I don't have to like the company to like 40k." Yet they also precede to bash the backstory, model releases, book releases, writers, play-testers, magazine writers, editors, contributors, facebook pages, CEOs, accountants, executives, store managers and fulltime and parttime general employees across the board, and I wonder what is left for them to like.
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Post by: mattyrm
Don't let a tiny minority drag you down.. Have you seen the guy in the paper model thread who said he is quitting because of all the ridiculous elitism of people who won't play against a well made paper model?
But the poll shows that 90% of people would play against them!
I'm telling you this to illustrate the point, I think people tend to remember the bad and forget the good!
Don't let a tiny minority drive you from a site you enjoy, just interact with the cool guys like me!
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
mattyrm wrote:Anyone who owns 38,000 points worth of GW models, but spends all day raging about the company that sold them it.. I mean really.. is it any different from a junkie who knows that Heroin is utterly destroying his health and life, but will rob his own mother to get some?
You compliment someone for trying to avoid the abusive husband analogy, and then run over to the drug addict analogy?
Classy. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Starfarer wrote:Kind of funny when you call this out, the argument is, "I don't have to like the company to like 40k." Yet they also precede to bash the backstory, model releases, book releases, writers, play-testers, magazine writers, editors, contributors, facebook pages, CEOs, accountants, executives, store managers and fulltime and parttime general employees across the board, and I wonder what is left for them to like.
What a tremendous over-simplification.
Gold star!
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Post by: mattyrm
H.B.M.C. wrote: mattyrm wrote:Anyone who owns 38,000 points worth of GW models, but spends all day raging about the company that sold them it.. I mean really.. is it any different from a junkie who knows that Heroin is utterly destroying his health and life, but will rob his own mother to get some?
You compliment someone for trying to avoid the abusive husband analogy, and then run over to the drug addict analogy?
Classy.
You choose to take heroin.
You don't choose to be raped or abused.
Makes perfect sense to me.
I figured you wouldn't like it though...
How much have you given the company you utterly despise over the years?
20 grand? More?
I think anyone who can read is going to know which of us is the most impartial and as a result, logical on this topic.
Further more, why do you get so pissed when people like me mention it? I'm not having a go at you, I agree with a great many of your complaints, and fully concede that GW would be a better company if they listened to the community more, but you are not a stupid guy, you must be aware that this topic illicits an emotional response from you because you are so passionate about the hobby?
You are even trying to sarcastically mock the bloke above me who just said he's practically quit the site due to the incessant rage....cut him some slack eh?
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Post by: SilverMK2
Just to make a point, there are some who don't.
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Post by: Lorizael
Rather than speculate I just asked my local manager what the policy on Finecast is.
He said that there were recognised issues with the first few runs but that a studio painter/modeller and previous Golden Daemon winner had taken over the QC and development of Finecast in order to make it up to his standards. GW want to make it the best it can be.
If a finecast model has a defect then it the store should and will replace it. But it actually has to be a defect. Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects and just a part of the modelling process- the same as needing to rebend or fill in gaps with metal models.
He talked about some customer's unrealistic expectations that finecast should be immaculate. Plastic and metal models require hobby skills to work on and need modelling attention whether with mold lines or filling gaps. Working with finecast is no different.
So he will replace models that have mold shifts or bubbles on faces and areas of detail and broken components- things that take more than 5 minnutes of effort to fix.
But a space marine leg with a few pits or bubbles takes 2 minutes of applying liquid greenstuff or super glue and doesn't need to be replaced.
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Post by: SilverMK2
 Lorizael wrote:Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects and just a part of the modelling process
Games Workshop wrote:Games Workshop has always innovated and sought to increase the quality of our models - Citadel Finecast is the next step in that process. There are no other miniatures that exist of this quality and manufactured on this scale in the world, and we're proud and very excited for you all to see this for yourselves.
Games Workshop's Finecast release announcement. From this you could be forgiven for thinking that you could expect to get a model which isn't covered in air bubbles. I know none of the resin models I have got from other companies have come with air bubbles. Except for a Forge World model that I have actually... Hmmm... I'll be getting about 200 resin models from Reaper next year in their new material so we can have a look and see if there is a marked difference in quality or not between two companies doing large scale releases of some new and some models in a new material
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Post by: Sigvatr
I personally love Finecast. Metal was gak. Paint easily fell off and you had no possibility to alter positions etc. Finecast allows for easy modifications and a better level of detail. Then again, I don't have many finecast miniatures...the price is a big turn-off.
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Post by: jonolikespie
Lorizael wrote:Rather than speculate I just asked my local manager what the policy on Finecast is. He said that there were recognised issues with the first few runs but that a studio painter/modeller and previous Golden Daemon winner had taken over the QC and development of Finecast in order to make it up to his standards. GW want to make it the best it can be. If a finecast model has a defect then it the store should and will replace it. But it actually has to be a defect. Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects and just a part of the modelling process- the same as needing to rebend or fill in gaps with metal models. He talked about some customer's unrealistic expectations that finecast should be immaculate. Plastic and metal models require hobby skills to work on and need modelling attention whether with mold lines or filling gaps. Working with finecast is no different. So he will replace models that have mold shifts or bubbles on faces and areas of detail and broken components- things that take more than 5 minnutes of effort to fix. But a space marine leg with a few pits or bubbles takes 2 minutes of applying liquid greenstuff or super glue and doesn't need to be replaced.
Unfortunately local managers (redshirts) don't know anything. They are regularly getting things wrong and must have been told to downplay the finecast problem, I have been told the miscast rate is only 1 in 10 (in my personal experience I am 10/12 on miscasts and no one I know personally has had any better luck than 3/4). And I agree that a few bubbles on flat surfaces are no worse than removing the flash from plastic and to be expected, I don't call it a miscast unless I am forced to resculpt something or it is COVERED in bubbles. *edit* Sigvatr wrote:I personally love Finecast. Metal was gak. Paint easily fell off and you had no possibility to alter positions etc. Finecast allows for easy modifications and a better level of detail. Then again, I don't have many finecast miniatures...the price is a big turn-off.
I actually like the material too, I hated metal. The problem is that they can't get the casting right.
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Post by: Palindrome
Lorizael wrote:
If a finecast model has a defect then it the store should and will replace it. But it actually has to be a defect. Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects and just a part of the modelling process- the same as needing to rebend or fill in gaps with metal models.
.
Buy online, under the distance selling regulations you can return any goods you buy online upto 7 working days after you received the item for any reason, you don't even have to pay for return postage.
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Post by: Sidstyler
 jonolikespie wrote:And I agree that a few bubbles on flat surfaces are no worse than removing the flash from plastic and to be expected, I don't call it a miscast unless I am forced to resculpt something or it is COVERED in bubbles.
*edit*
Sigvatr wrote:I personally love Finecast. Metal was gak. Paint easily fell off and you had no possibility to alter positions etc. Finecast allows for easy modifications and a better level of detail. Then again, I don't have many finecast miniatures...the price is a big turn-off.
I actually like the material too, I hated metal. The problem is that they can't get the casting right.
Same here, on both counts. I didn't mind Finecast replacing metal until it became apparent the issues with quality would never go away, and if anything GW seems keen to keep telling us this is how it's "supposed" to be, judging from what Lorizael told us.
One or two holes in a model are fine. But most models I've seen and purchased for myself are literally covered in them. That's not "part of the casting process" no matter how you try and spin it.
Palindrome wrote:Buy online
I thought about it, just to see if the models I got were any better than what my local store has on offer, but I'd rather give my local store the business if at all possible, and at the end of the day the stuff is still way overpriced anyway. Personally I'm starting to think I'm better off not bothering with it at all.
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Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That
If GW says that finecast is going to be, er, fine, then that's good enough for me!
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Post by: jonolikespie
The problem is there is no reason to believe them. We have been hearing "the problems are with the first few waves, they are being sorted out" for well over a year now.
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Post by: Starfarer
mattyrm wrote:Don't let a tiny minority drag you down.. Have you seen the guy in the paper model thread who said he is quitting because of all the ridiculous elitism of people who won't play against a well made paper model?
But the poll shows that 90% of people would play against them!
I'm telling you this to illustrate the point, I think people tend to remember the bad and forget the good!
Don't let a tiny minority drive you from a site you enjoy, just interact with the cool guys like me!
It certainly wont affect my enjoyment of the hobby. I've been playing or collecting for going on 16 years, with a few hiatuses over the years. I've just learned it's easier to stick to P&M logs, as that's what I enjoy most, and the tacticians and global corporate finance execs can have the rest of the site.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Starfarer wrote:Kind of funny when you call this out, the argument is, "I don't have to like the company to like 40k." Yet they also precede to bash the backstory, model releases, book releases, writers, play-testers, magazine writers, editors, contributors, facebook pages, CEOs, accountants, executives, store managers and fulltime and parttime general employees across the board, and I wonder what is left for them to like.
What a tremendous over-simplification.
Gold star!
It's a simple response to the complaining I see on this site. ALL of the things I listed above are complained about by people here, and while I can understand and appreciate some of the issues people take with the company, when all of these things are unappealing to someone, I think don't think it is insincere to ask why that person would bother participating at all when so much of what they claim to like makes them so angry. I think those people would be better suited finding a game they enjoy more, like so many PP and Infinity players have done, to use an example. Just don't pretend their was some personal relationship with the company and they wronged you by changing policy or their product. We are all GW's consumers, not their old drinking buddies.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Lorizael wrote:
If a finecast model has a defect then it the store should and will replace it. But it actually has to be a defect. Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects and just a part of the modelling process- the same as needing to rebend or fill in gaps with metal models.
He talked about some customer's unrealistic expectations that finecast should be immaculate. Plastic and metal models require hobby skills to work on and need modelling attention whether with mold lines or filling gaps. Working with finecast is no different.
Maybe GW should look at other resin manufacturers who don't even need to charge £12-15 for a single 28mm figure and still produce stuff without the issues of Finecast.
'Bends' are sometimes easy to correct, and sometimes not. Some miscasts that have appeared online display not just a simple bend but they have an actual deformity, likely caused by being pulled from the mould too quickly. They won't straighten out, they are deformed or stretched out of position. The bubbles can be filled depending on where they occur, but they frequently occur in places where the mould has trouble flowing. They don't occur in the middle of smooth areas but on the tips of detail, corners and edges, which are not easily remedied. And again, GW put up the prices significantly to pay for this improved material and now seem reticent to replace substandard product as they once did, now being quicker to criticise the customer's expectations as 'unrealistic' and that they only pose challenges like other models. Well for the prices GW charge, I think you would expect less imperfections, or at least at the same level of quality as their metal castings. I mean really, did you ever hear of people being given repeated duff replacements with metal models?
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Post by: mattyrm
Regards fc, has it actually gotten better?
I've not bought anything in it due to me only having one army and not needing any more HQs or sternguard.. But the complaints seem less, have they squared their gak away a little better with quality control?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although i have to add..i needed a termie librarian back when fc first came out, and due to the amount of negative press bought a scibor librarian librarian equivalent off wayland and it was actually more expensive.
So i don't think high prices is exclusive to games workshop either!
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
I don't know, whenever I look though a rack I can see evidence bubbles, though never the twisted monstrosities that have surfaced online as examples of the very worst.
But it's still a bit of a risk laying out £45 on something like the boxed white council and getting four finecast figures blind. And if I were paying that sort of money, yes I would expect near perfection actually...
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Post by: necrovamp
i don't see a propblem here.
If you don't like what GW are doing, or how much they charge for their prices then don't buy their stuff.
Find a better alternative, these days it's not like GW is the only company out there.
Or buy second hand.
Personlly I do not like the direction GW have taken with their games, or their business model, i am also to poor to affoard their models, instead I write rules for my gaming group and we source cheaper models. If i remeber there was threead listing links to alternative 40k sites.
If anyone tells me they are going to get into it i will warn them against it and show them the other alternatives.
GW don't need a community rep. They are all about the 'new player' and as they change their game every few years keep putting new stuff out, if the community as a whole didn't like it they wouldn't buy it but as we have seen, people buy it. A lot.
Alternativly you can keep buying GW's stuff and maoning about it, but in my mind thats pretty idiotic.
why do they need a community rep when sales are what tells them they are doing well?
Smaller companies need a commnuity rep, espcially if thye havn't any shops, since they have to get their product 'out there' in order to sell stuff and get their product known to the community. GW are already know to the wider community so they do not need a rep. A rep isn't about 'liasing with the communtiy*; a rep is a market researcher and advertiser in one.
*Liasing with the community - Activly seeking to find out what the community as a general want from the company and getting the companies product noticed and into the wider community in order to wident he customer base and sell more product.
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Post by: Ravenous D
Sidstyler wrote:Yeah, perhaps independent retailers have to eat the costs and thus refer you to GW instead. Just guessing here, but I don't really know why else they'd do that.
Its because trying to get a return out of GW sales reps is like getting blood from a stone and you yourself must pay to ship the items back. Whole process takes 3 weeks, its designed to be a huge pain in the ass by GW. So its easier just to say "go to/call GW they'll send you a new one"
If you really want to see GWs shady practices go to your LGS and get a "direct only" item shipped to the store (most LGS can do so), in the same day do the same from GW, the GW one will be there in a week, the LGS will be there in 6 weeks or never.
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Post by: TedNugent
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
1: these forums are rarely a serious discussion area. too many players act as if GW does a disservice to them for not wholly supporting their occupation. GW is not in that business.
I am not in the business of 24/7 public relations for GW. It's not my job to constantly uncritically praise everything they do and buy their products like a zombie.
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Post by: AduroT
I've gotten two boxes of Finecast Wracks from GW. The first box was the Worst quality casted kit I have Ever seen. Parts broken off. So Much Detail Missing. One model even had some random piece of plastic bisecting the head front from back. Called and got a replacement with no problem, and the replacement was probably one of the best quality cast kits I've seen. Almost no determinable defects.
I don't like the material though, too soft for my preferences.
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Post by: Buzzsaw
Lorizael wrote:Rather than speculate I just asked my local manager what the policy on Finecast is.
He said that there were recognised issues with the first few runs but that a studio painter/modeller and previous Golden Daemon winner had taken over the QC and development of Finecast in order to make it up to his standards. GW want to make it the best it can be.
If a finecast model has a defect then it the store should and will replace it. But it actually has to be a defect. Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects and just a part of the modelling process- the same as needing to rebend or fill in gaps with metal models.
He talked about some customer's unrealistic expectations that finecast should be immaculate. Plastic and metal models require hobby skills to work on and need modelling attention whether with mold lines or filling gaps. Working with finecast is no different.
So he will replace models that have mold shifts or bubbles on faces and areas of detail and broken components- things that take more than 5 minnutes of effort to fix.
But a space marine leg with a few pits or bubbles takes 2 minutes of applying liquid greenstuff or super glue and doesn't need to be replaced.
I can't believe this isn't being more commented upon, as this view, presumably faithfully reported, represents a gobsmacking lowering of standards.
First, let's address the point of "some customer's unrealistic expectations that finecast should be immaculate";
Andy Hall: Last week we announced something very special - so special in fact that it's nothing less than a new era in wargaming, as we launch the highest quality miniatures the world has ever seen - Citadel Finecast.
Wow, that's quite a statement isn't it? Nonetheless, it is very true. On the 28th of May we launch Citadel Finecast, miniatures of such exquisite detail that they are the closest representation of the sculptors' original that we have ever been able to make. Until you hold one in your hand and see it for yourself, it's hard to describe just how detailed they are.
So, what are Citadel Finecast miniatures and why are we making the change? Quite simply, Citadel Finecast is the next step in the evolution in tabletop miniatures wargaming. From the start, Games Workshop has always innovated and sought to increase the quality of our models - Citadel Finecast is the next step in that process. There are no other miniatures that exist of this quality and manufactured on this scale in the world, and we're proud and very excited for you all to see this for yourselves.
Go and read that page, it goes on and on, piling virtues on finecast that would make a politician blush. So to blame the customer for believing their own press, their statements like "There are no other miniatures that exist of this quality and manufactured on this scale in the world, and we're proud and very excited for you all to see this for yourselves" seems little less then contemptuous.
Beyond that, the idea that "Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects"... I cannot believe any consumer could reconcile that with the purchase of a "premium" product. Could you imagine KD replying that way when you reported such a flaw? Studio McVey? RedBox? Dreamforge? They would be pilloried, and rightly so.
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Post by: cincydooley
AduroT wrote: cincydooley wrote: AduroT wrote:True and valid. I just wanted to point out the fallacy of the "there's less Warmachine players" argument when the number of Warmachine players are effectively caped and could exceed the current numbers at Adepticon easily if given the chance.
I'm going to call BS on that one.
The team tourney has 400 some players and sells out within an hour or so.
Doesn't the selling out within the hour thing kind of make my point that they could probably sell a lot more if there wasn't a limit?
I was talking about the 40k team tourney by the way.
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Post by: insaniak
Lorizael wrote:If a finecast model has a defect then it the store should and will replace it. But it actually has to be a defect. Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects and just a part of the modelling process- the same as needing to rebend or fill in gaps with metal models.
Yeah, about that...
Bent weapons are not a problem, so long as the material doesn't mind being reshaped, and stays reshaped.
But air bubbles? Yes, technically they're a part of the casting process... in the same way that pitting is a part of the process with metal. But it's a part that tells you that you're doing something wrong.
If the model has air bubbles, that means that the resin didn't completely fill the mould. That's a defect.
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Post by: mattyrm
Honesty, do you not think that slagging GW off for the wording on their statements is just really silly?
It's fething advertising!
Of course they will say finecast is wonderful and amazing.. I mean, that's the way all companies work.
Have you read the menu in Dennys? Or seen a Ford commercial? Or read a holiday brochure?
Advertising people bs. It's not even remotely a GW issue, in fact, I'd say that the exact same level of nonsense is practiced by every company ever.
It's ridiculously dishonest to try and say otherwise.. Watch an infomercial for a swivel sweeper or a blender or a juicer or a frigging... Dog brush, and you will see way more lofty claims than "our sometimes sub standard and occasionally holey resin is actually totally awesome"
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
It was the method they used to introduce us to Finecast, so why shouldn't they be called on it?
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Post by: rigeld2
And claims in advertisement are tested in courts - so they actually only say things they can support.
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Post by: SilverMK2
I don't recall having seen anything they put out subsequently as an official statement along the lines of "sorry, we dropped the ball and our finecast quality has been horrific - we are working to make this better and would like to say sorry to those people who were excited for our new release and got sub-standard product."
Instead we got something like: "WOW! SUPER NEW LIQUID GREEN STUFF TO USE WITH OUR SUPER AWESOME FINECAST TO FILL THAT REALISTIC BATTLE DAMAGE ( TM) THAT WE DELIBERATELY CAST INTO OUR FINECAST MODELS!"
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Post by: insaniak
mattyrm wrote:Honesty, do you not think that slagging GW off for the wording on their statements is just really silly?
It's fething advertising!
And advertisers are accountable for their claims.
Yes, a certain amount of hyperbole is to be expected, but it's not unreasonable when a company advertises their product as the best thing ever, to expect some degree of quality. This isn't just GW saying 'our product is fantastic' and it maybe not being quite that good. This is GW claiming to be producing the best miniatures on the planet in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
As an aside, don't assume that the dislike for this advertising method is confined solely to GW. Some of us are equally disapproving of any other companies making grandiose claims that they can't actually back up.
Have you read the menu in Dennys? Or seen a Ford commercial? Or read a holiday brochure?
Have you seen a Ford commercial that claimed that theirs was the best car ever built, and subsequently bought one to find that it was mis-shapen and full of holes? And then had Ford tell you that this was an unavoidable side-effect of the production process, and try to sell you a product to fix it yourself?
There's advertising, and there's just outright fabrication. GW's claims about 'Fine'cast are so severely divorced from reality that it's not even funny. If GW were selling a more mainstream product, I rather strongly suspect that an advertising regulator would have taken them to task over their claims about just how fantastic the product is.
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Post by: Azreal13
mattyrm wrote:Honesty, do you not think that slagging GW off for the wording on their statements is just really silly?
It's fething advertising!
Of course they will say finecast is wonderful and amazing.. I mean, that's the way all companies work.
Have you read the menu in Dennys? Or seen a Ford commercial? Or read a holiday brochure?
Advertising people bs. It's not even remotely a GW issue, in fact, I'd usay that the exact same level of nonsense is practiced by every company ever.
It's ridiculously dishonest to try and say otherwise.. Watch an infomercial for a swivel sweeper or a blender or a juicer or a frigging... Dog brush, and you will see way more lofty claims than "our sometimes sub standard and occasionally holey resin is actually totally awesome"
Not quite accurate.
There's a distinct line between portraying a product in its best possible light and misrepresentation.
To my mind Finecast flirts dangerously with that line, as it isn't close to being what GW claim it us. The potential is there, but the production method seems too flawed and GW totally unmotivated to fix it.
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Post by: Kanluwen
SilverMK2 wrote:
Instead we got something like: "WOW! SUPER NEW LIQUID GREEN STUFF TO USE WITH OUR SUPER AWESOME FINECAST TO FILL THAT REALISTIC BATTLE DAMAGE ( TM) THAT WE DELIBERATELY CAST INTO OUR FINECAST MODELS!"
To be 100% completely honest, I think Liquid Green Stuff just gets tarred with the same brush as Finecast because of the release window.
I, personally, do not believe that it was ever meant to be a "solution" to the problems with Finecast.
I don't think even GW would stoop that low.
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Post by: Buzzsaw
insaniak wrote: Lorizael wrote:If a finecast model has a defect then it the store should and will replace it. But it actually has to be a defect. Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects and just a part of the modelling process- the same as needing to rebend or fill in gaps with metal models.
Yeah, about that...
Bent weapons are not a problem, so long as the material doesn't mind being reshaped, and stays reshaped.
But air bubbles? Yes, technically they're a part of the casting process... in the same way that pitting is a part of the process with metal. But it's a part that tells you that you're doing something wrong.
If the model has air bubbles, that means that the resin didn't completely fill the mould. That's a defect.
Precisely.
mattyrm wrote:...
Contrary to what you appear to believe, there are legal consequences for statements and representations of quality made in advertising. But let's assume, arguendo, that statements made by GW should be treated as outright falsehoods untempered by even the slightest connection to reality.
Even if we assume that, their statement to Lorizael should take your breath away. Because, as insaniak correctly observes, they are selling defective goods. Or, to be more legalistic about it, they are selling unmerchantable goods and then telling their customers that expecting merchantable goods is unreasonable. "He talked about some customer's unrealistic expectations that finecast should be immaculate".
Their outlook (as reported by Lorizael) appears to be that defects are not problems, but a feature, as if selling the consumer a first quality product is somehow inauthentic.
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Post by: Ravenous D
Bam exalted Automatically Appended Next Post: H.B.M.C. wrote:It was the method they used to introduce us to Finecast, so why shouldn't they be called on it?
Thats the real stinker, they flat out told us its cheaper in some cases 1/10th the cost, then when we saw the prices they said "oh thats for the molds, we spent a lot of money on those". They passed their debt to us to pay out of our pockets, not theirs, If that isnt a dick move I dont know what is.
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Post by: spaceelf
mattyrm wrote:
You choose to take heroin.
You don't choose to be raped or abused.
Makes perfect sense to me.
In actuality addicts and abused spouses usually have many things in common. The addict is dependent on the substance. The abused spouse is usually codependent on the abusive party and thus does not want to leave.
Also, although you may choose to take a drug, you do not choose to be addicted. Some people are and some are not.
I think that it is clear that GW would benefit from having a community representative, that is what PR and spin is all about. The fact that they do not speaks volumes about what they think of us.
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Post by: MightyGodzilla
Would having a GW rep on this board really do any good? Logistically speaking, how much positive interaction would there be before one of the Dakkawankers got all donkey cave on him about something that's already happened. This place can be a tank of piranhas and once blood is drawn....
I think the modding on this board is excellent and the personalities on this board are very memorable, but this is a board holds its object of affection to very high standards and is very unforgiving when they aren't met. Kinda why I like it here.
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Post by: Adam LongWalker
spaceelf wrote: mattyrm wrote:
You choose to take heroin.
You don't choose to be raped or abused.
Makes perfect sense to me.
In actuality addicts and abused spouses usually have many things in common. The addict is dependent on the substance. The abused spouse is usually codependent on the abusive party and thus does not want to leave.
Also, although you may choose to take a drug, you do not choose to be addicted. Some people are and some are not.
I think that it is clear that GW would benefit from having a community representative, that is what PR and spin is all about. The fact that they do not speaks volumes about what they think of us.
I agree, but they have been lurking in various sites for many years. They do their data mining in a way I have done my data mining research into various companies (this include game companies) for investment. Why should they? They get the information that they lurk in here for and don't have to deal with people with the concerns of the product they are pushing.
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Post by: mattyrm
You are contradicting yourselves in your rush to condemn GW surely?
If "contradictory to what I appear to believe" there are legal consequences, then why haven't the regulators charged GW?
The British board of advertising standards haven't said anything, ergo they can't have dropped the ball.
Also be aware lm not in disagreement with HBMCs last statement, sure you can call them on it, that is our right.
I certainly have because I've not bought any finecast.. I'd also agree with azreal13, they are probably flirting with taking the piss, but like I said, the rest of you talking about legal this and court that are clearly wrong, because they haven't wound up being forced to reword their advertising campaigns right?
What I said was simply that it's dishonest to make out like GW are vastly different from everyone else with regards advertising.
And you know I'm right, because these legal ramifications some of you keep mentioning haven't been forthcoming. Hundreds of ads get forcibly pulled, but finecast ads aren't one of them. As I've said many times, I certainly won't defend bloody finecast, I refuse to buy it as well! But let's not start saying stupid gak just because you feel passionate about your hobby. GW surely take the piss a little, but that's life, and that's the world of marketing.
Never heard of eight minutes abs? If they can get away with showing a photoshopped/whole other humans arse as a result of some fat chick using an infomercial exercise product for a couple of minutes a day.. GW aren't breaking any laws by stretching the truth about their models.
Clearly they walk the fine line of legal bs and outright illegal bs like a pro.
Excuse grammar and lack of quotes, I'm on my phone.
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Post by: Mannahnin
Matty, I was on board with most of your points in the thread, but Finecast has been a legit problem.
If their policy is (in fact) to treat air bubbles of any kind as unavoidable and not reasonable grounds for returning the product, then that's not acceptable to me. The metal models they replaced did not have those air bubbles; I just expect finecast models to live up to the same standards as their metal casts. Which shouldn't be asking too much, considering that GW has stated that the Finecast models are superior, and an improvement in cast quality and detail.
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Post by: nkelsch
 Mannahnin wrote:Matty, I was on board with most of your points in the thread, but Finecast has been a legit problem.
If their policy is (in fact) to treat air bubbles of any kind as unavoidable and not reasonable grounds for returning the product, then that's not acceptable to me. The metal models they replaced did not have those air bubbles; I just expect finecast models to live up to the same standards as their metal casts. Which shouldn't be asking too much, considering that GW has stated that the Finecast models are superior, and an improvement in cast quality and detail.
But this 'policy' being quoted is drastically different from what others are experiencing at other GWs and the experience differs from what lots of people experience on the phone from customer support.
Metal models did have rounding, pitting and miscast seamlines... and if it was damaged, GW replaced it. I actually feel like I have gotten more metal 'failures' recently as they are not spinning as much metal now... I have been buying shoulderpads and metal accessory packs and I have seen more flaws in the past 2 years than I have seen in 10. All metal figures.
And GW replaces any that I want.
I am highly skeptical over this 'policy' as after a solid 20 years of flawless customer support from GW, something they are known form, somehow that has all changed... especially when I still experience the flawless support to this day both in-store and on the phone.
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Post by: Rainbow Dash
I once read a neat article comparing the internet to the Chaos Gods in how GW seems to see it
entertaining read, GW sure seems to think its 1995 or something
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Post by: Peregrine
Mannahnin wrote:If their policy is (in fact) to treat air bubbles of any kind as unavoidable and not reasonable grounds for returning the product, then that's not acceptable to me. The metal models they replaced did not have those air bubbles; I just expect finecast models to live up to the same standards as their metal casts. Which shouldn't be asking too much, considering that GW has stated that the Finecast models are superior, and an improvement in cast quality and detail.
Being a problem isn't the same as being a legal problem you can take legal action against GW over. It just means they have a product and your decision to buy or not buy should reflect that low quality. It's no different than your local fast food place advertising their tasty FineBurgers, you don't get to sue them for false advertising because it tastes like .
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Post by: mattyrm
Mannahnin wrote:Matty, I was on board with most of your points in the thread, but Finecast has been a legit problem.
If their policy is (in fact) to treat air bubbles of any kind as unavoidable and not reasonable grounds for returning the product, then that's not acceptable to me. The metal models they replaced did not have those air bubbles; I just expect finecast models to live up to the same standards as their metal casts. Which shouldn't be asking too much, considering that GW has stated that the Finecast models are superior, and an improvement in cast quality and detail.
Yeah you havent read all of what I wrote Mannahin, essentially im in full agreement with peregrin, finecast is clearly flawed and i have refused to buy it thanks to the community feedback.
I wasnt saying otherwise, I was simply saying that GW telling everyone its the bees knees isnt illegal, and its certainly not uncommon behaviour in the cut throat world of marketting.
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Post by: insaniak
mattyrm wrote:
I wasnt saying otherwise, I was simply saying that GW telling everyone its the bees knees isnt illegal, and its certainly not uncommon behaviour in the cut throat world of marketting.
That doesn't man that we shouldn't complain about it. That sort of nonsense it's allowed in advertising precisely because people don't make a bigger deal of it.
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Post by: rigeld2
mattyrm wrote:I wasnt saying otherwise, I was simply saying that GW telling everyone its the bees knees isnt illegal, and its certainly not uncommon behaviour in the cut throat world of marketting.
It's at least skirting the edge - it's objectively not the best, and advertising claims need to be either objectively true or supported with other documentation.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
This is why Carlsburg is only 'probably' the best lager in the world. To say outright that you are the best and then consistently offer poor product should invite comment. I don't know that it's adds up to false advertising though, it is a bit misleading though, but they could argue it still only represents a matter of opinion.
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Post by: Peregrine
rigeld2 wrote:It's at least skirting the edge - it's objectively not the best, and advertising claims need to be either objectively true or supported with other documentation.
How is it objectively not the best? It might not be the best casting quality among resin models, but who says you can't value the price to quality ratio, or even just the fact that it's a sculpt from GW's IP?
Now, in a certain person's opinion it can certainly be not the best, but that's a subjective preference, not objective fact. Just like how your local fast food FineBurger is inedible but you can't sue them for false advertising for claiming that it's tasty.
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Post by: insaniak
Peregrine wrote:How is it objectively not the best? It might not be the best casting quality among resin models, ...
... and yet GW claims that it is. Hence the suggestion that this is a false statement. There is no 'might not be' involved. 'Fine'cast most certainly is not the best quality resin on the market. A simple comparison between GW's casts and any of the myriad other resin miniature producers out there selling miniatures without airbubbles and excessive flash shows that without any doubt.
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Post by: Peregrine
insaniak wrote:... and yet GW claims that it is. Hence the suggestion that this is a false statement. There is no 'might not be' involved. 'Fine'cast most certainly is not the best quality resin on the market. A simple comparison between GW's casts and any of the myriad other resin miniature producers out there selling miniatures without airbubbles and excessive flash shows that without any doubt.
It's the best casting quality because it's resin formed into the shape of a space marine, so all those other companies don't matter. Saying they're superior is like saying that a flawlessly cast plain cube of resin is the best model because it has the fewest casting flaws.
Anyway, the point is that "I hate it" and "grounds for a lawsuit over false advertising" are two very different things. Finecast is garbage, but you're just not living in the same reality as the rest of us if you think you can sue GW for false advertising over it.
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Post by: mattyrm
insaniak wrote: Peregrine wrote:How is it objectively not the best? It might not be the best casting quality among resin models, ...
... and yet GW claims that it is. Hence the suggestion that this is a false statement. There is no 'might not be' involved. 'Fine'cast most certainly is not the best quality resin on the market. A simple comparison between GW's casts and any of the myriad other resin miniature producers out there selling miniatures without airbubbles and excessive flash shows that without any doubt.
And yet I'm right, and you are wrong.
It's not the case of me "sticking up" for GW, or a clearly flawed product like finecast. Read all of the comments I have made.
I said that finecast is flawed, but the way GW advertise it isn't illegal, or different from a great many companies clearly dishonest practices. You are inventing a position I have never held because it's easier to argue with.
I entered the discussion saying that as usual, people's emotionally charged response to all things GW is clouding their judgement, and that it is dishonest to claim they are alone in making ridiculous claims with their advertising.
That's it. I'm not praising them, or claiming finecast doesn't suck. I'm simply pointing out that it's ridiculous to claim they are acting illegally.
And they aren't. The advertising sector is heavily regulated. The big companies take as close a line to bs as they can get away with to flog products, if they contravene the rules, the ads get pulled.
Ergo, I'm not sticking up for GW, and I'm not saying finecast is good.. But it's not objective, it's not a matter of opinion.
GW haven't broken the law, at the time of writing, I am right and you are wrong.
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Post by: doc1234
Peregrine wrote: insaniak wrote:... and yet GW claims that it is. Hence the suggestion that this is a false statement. There is no 'might not be' involved. 'Fine'cast most certainly is not the best quality resin on the market. A simple comparison between GW's casts and any of the myriad other resin miniature producers out there selling miniatures without airbubbles and excessive flash shows that without any doubt.
It's the best casting quality because it's resin formed into the shape of a space marine, so all those other companies don't matter. Saying they're superior is like saying that a flawlessly cast plain cube of resin is the best model because it has the fewest casting flaws.
Anyway, the point is that "I hate it" and "grounds for a lawsuit over false advertising" are two very different things. Finecast is garbage, but you're just not living in the same reality as the rest of us if you think you can sue GW for false advertising over it.
Not really, id dare say SGs resin sculpts are a HELL of a lot more detailed than the occasional purity seal on broad expanses of totally not bubbled armour.
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Post by: mattyrm
I will also add by the way, I can fully understand an auzzies anger at GW.
Clearly you lads get a raw deal and it sucks.. I think you'll find that you and I agree on almost every point, I'm simply saying that there is a difference between dodgy advertising and full blown fraud.
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Post by: rigeld2
mattyrm wrote:[Ergo, I'm not sticking up for GW, and I'm not saying finecast is good.. But it's not objective, it's not a matter of opinion.
It can be objective. It would take a court case to determine that, however.
GW haven't broken the law, at the time of writing, I am right and you are wrong.
Can you cite one time where insaniak or I said that they had? Both of us have said that they're dangerously close to the line.
The FTC doesn't screen every ad before it goes out - it requires someone to report the issue, then investigates, then brings a civil suit. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it cannot.
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Post by: mattyrm
Report it then, let's see who wins.
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Post by: rigeld2
Not worth my time or money. And I didn't say theynwere definitely over the line, I said they were close. Or have you found somewhere I've said differently?
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Post by: mattyrm
rigeld2 wrote:Not worth my time or money. And I didn't say theynwere definitely over the line, I said they were close. Or have you found somewhere I've said differently?
No mate, as I said, I entered the thread after buzz made a pretty vitriolic post a few pages back simply saying that GW are doing normal bs advertising, hugely bigging up a sub standard product.
I don't disagree with you, I was simply pointing out that anyone who thinks this is either illegal or even uncommon has not been paying attention to life/is being overzealous with their desire to slag GW.
I've been watching infomercials today actually.. Sean T's killer abs, Bosley hair restoration, with photos of blokes with rejuvenated hair even though they look feth all like the guys they are supposed to be six weeks earlier?!
Advertising is ridiculous right across the retail sector, that's the point I was making, card because the turbo rage at GW here is childish. They are acting like most big ass companies, and as I said in my initial post, it's just dishonest to claim otherwise, I'm not in any way excusing the behaviour of advertising execs am I!
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Post by: insaniak
mattyrm wrote:..., and that it is dishonest to claim they are alone in making ridiculous claims with their advertising.
Who was claiming that they were?
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Post by: Peregrine
insaniak wrote: mattyrm wrote:..., and that it is dishonest to claim they are alone in making ridiculous claims with their advertising.
Who was claiming that they were?
Anyone who thinks that it's possible, or even close to possible, to successfully sue GW for false advertising. For that to be possible their marketing claims would have to go well beyond the general (and entirely legal) level of "our FineBurgers are the best ever!" optimism.
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Post by: Buzzsaw
mattyrm wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Not worth my time or money. And I didn't say theynwere definitely over the line, I said they were close. Or have you found somewhere I've said differently?
No mate, as I said, I entered the thread after buzz made a pretty vitriolic post a few pages back simply saying that GW are doing normal bs advertising, hugely bigging up a sub standard product.
...
No offense, but you have reached an almost comical lack of understanding of the applicable laws and standards over the course of this thread. It's rather fascinating, really, how you've consistently become more and more insistent and yet dutifully avoided even the hint of substantiating your point.
I won't say that I'm an attorney, ergo "I'm right and you're wrong", that would be... silly. Instead I will quote Professor David A Hoffman's enjoyable article on puffery (internal citations ommitted);
The purpose of false-advertising law is to ensure that consumers receive
accurate information about products and services that are being sold.Through
the media, advertisers provide information to consumers so that they can make
meaningful choices and for that reason, misleading information can be dangerous
to the consumer.When goods are praised to the point of untruth, “the result is
not informed, intelligent choice, but rather its [sic] perversion; there is no ‘choice’
when selection is a function of competing untruths, deceits, and misleading
comparisons.” Thus, the law judges deception based upon advertisements that,
on a whole, are likely to mislead the general public.
The puffery defense in false-advertising cases protects accused defendant-speakers
whose speech is not factual, i.e., is of a type capable of being falsified.The question
of falsifiability is one of law, and courts and regulators routinely
decide puffery problems by articulating a line between falsifiable and nonfalsifiable
speech....
It is a beauty of the law that of a thing that is a matter of law that has not yet be adjudicated may be said to be... anything by opinion. However, like Schrodinger's cat, until litigated, it is simultaneously everything... and nothing. I will further observe that "Only a foolish lawyer will be quick to label a seller’s statement as puffs or not puffs, and only a reckless one will label a seller’s statement at all..." and since I am neither foolish nor reckless, I shall, therefore, leave such determinations to those worthy folks who wish to bring a class action against GW and the various Hands of the internet. After all, who would dare say that GW's statements were "likely to mislead the general public"...
By happy chance this brings us back to the point which I was actually making in my original post: the shocking disconnect between the (on first impression) factual claims regarding finecast and its quality and the attitude attributed by Lorizael to retail management.
And, Hosanna! this brings us to the actual topic of the thread: why doesn't GW have a community representative?The simplest explanation is that by not having one, they avoid responsibility. A community rep, after all, would be forced to do one of two things: the first option, toe the company line, which would quickly be revealed as diverging far from reality (ultimately trending towards shades of Baghdad Bob), or second, yield to reality (as the manager Lorizael spoke to apparently has) and publicly undermine the absurd statements made by management.
You want to see a difference in corporate culture? Just look at what Privateer Press did during the debacle of the release of their WarRoom App, and compare their massive push to make things right with the... remind me, what exactly did GW do publicly as a response to the launch of finecast?
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Post by: mattyrm
I can't make a lengthy argument via my galaxy, but as I said, the crux of what I was talking about is your vitriolic post presented above. Filled with clichés about GW making claims that would make a "politician blush"
I mean really, have you listened to a politican!?
I'm not disagreeing with some of your point, and I'm far from a GW apologist. In fact I'm the exact opposite, I have steadfastly refused to buy a FC product due to being in the loop with regards the online community.
But as I've repeated several times, the point is not that GW are being honest regards their advertising, it's that you are making lofty and inflammatory claims about GW because GW piss you off.
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Post by: BronzeJon
Because they refuse to believe that customers know what they want, just like they refuse to believe there are any other wargames/wargaming companies out there, AT ALL.
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Post by: nkelsch
BronzeJon wrote:Because they refuse to believe that customers know what they want, just like they refuse to believe there are any other wargames/wargaming companies out there, AT ALL.
why should they? Privateer press doesn't go out of its way to make sure customers know there are 'other' products out there... I never understand when this 'line' pops up as there is not always a reason to acknowledge competition in the marketplace. Why does GW need to 'believe' that PP exists in any capacity as long as people continue to buy space marines like it is heroin?
when your marketing pitch is "we are cheaper than product x" do you need your sales pitch to acknowledge a competing product. I don't see what value there is in GW somehow attempting to somehow internalize to their customer that there are competing products. PP sure as hell doesn't, and is totally non-supportive of third party or competing models when used in their games.
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Post by: mattyrm
BronzeJon wrote:Because they refuse to believe that customers know what they want, just like they refuse to believe there are any other wargames/wargaming companies out there, AT ALL.
Yeah and this is what I'm talking about john. Of course its not a case of GW "refusing to believe" that there are other gaming companies or anything else. They are well aware that people play privateer press, they just ignore that because at the moment they make a profit anyway!
I'm not a GW apologist, I just get annoyed at my fellow hobbyists acting like entitled kids. Most big corporate entities are the exact same, and I don't see why grown men act like victims because we happen to like minis. Buy them or don't buy them, sadly, that's the limit of our "entitlement "
GW are merciless mother fethers, but they know what they are doing. They don't feth people by accident do they?!
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Post by: Peregrine
nkelsch wrote:why should they? Privateer press doesn't go out of its way to make sure customers know there are 'other' products out there... I never understand when this 'line' pops up as there is not always a reason to acknowledge competition in the marketplace. Why does GW need to 'believe' that PP exists in any capacity as long as people continue to buy space marines like it is heroin?
Because the "we are the special GW ( tm) Hobby ( tm)" attitude extends to just more than marketing claims and into self-destructive behavior where GW seems to believe their own propaganda. For example, the incredible stupidity of GW not attending general gaming conventions because it would require them to admit to being part of the broader wargaming hobby instead of their own special Hobby with dedicated GW-only fans who love GW just because it's GW. As a result GW gives up on an excellent opportunity to market their games and gain new customers, which is bad for the long-term health of their games.
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Post by: insaniak
Peregrine wrote:Anyone who thinks that it's possible, or even close to possible, to successfully sue GW for false advertising. For that to be possible their marketing claims would have to go well beyond the general (and entirely legal) level of "our FineBurgers are the best ever!" optimism.
That makes no sense.
For starters, nobody would be 'suing' GW for false advertising. There are advertising regulators who take care of that if they receive enough complaints about a particular product and the way it is being promoted.
Secondly, thinking that one company is falsely representing their product in no way equates to thinking that they are the only company that is doing so.
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Post by: Peregrine
insaniak wrote:For starters, nobody would be 'suing' GW for false advertising. There are advertising regulators who take care of that if they receive enough complaints about a particular product and the way it is being promoted.
Fine, replace "suing" with "taking legal action" if that's the route you see it going. The point is that there's no grounds for it.
Secondly, thinking that one company is falsely representing their product in no way equates to thinking that they are the only company that is doing so.
Look, the simple fact is that everyone bends the truth a bit in advertising. Do you really think that your local burger place is being entirely honest about their "best ever" FineBurgers? Of course not, everyone (including their management) knows they're selling fast food that's mediocre at best. But no court or regulatory agency is ever going to do anything about that kind of advertising because it's just how things work.
For GW to be in any danger of lawsuits/fines/etc they'd have to go well beyond that standard level of truth-bending and start making objectively false claims. They wouldn't be alone in doing it, but they'd be part of a pretty small group.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Fine cast is a good example on how a community representative would be totally useless because no matter how you sugar coat it its the worst material and casting in the industry... and speaking of publicity well GW does not use publicity or advertisement, I mean a statement on their own stores or site is like a grain on sand on the advertisement universe. So it's really more a totally irrelevant inhouse memorandum with all the BS and self praising than actually publicity to outsiders.
From the way I see it it's damn funny how detached from reality these companies work.
Someone asked why GW should be aware of the competitors? Are you really making that question or just making a argument for the sake of it? Heck even deluded GW tries to swallow others IP's and deliver C&D to any small company to shut it down... thats being aware of competition ( well in the wrong way of awareness but still )
As for the profits thing, no one knows do we? I mean Shrinking stores, staff, tournaments, royalties on games, movies have influence on that final number... assuming profits means more popular and that miniatures sales are growing is being naive.
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Post by: Pacific
mattyrm wrote:
But as I've repeated several times, the point is not that GW are being honest regards their advertising, it's because... GW piss you off.
I've paraphrased the quote here, but sadly I think this is it or all about it.
I don't think anyone likes what happened because it represents a lowering of standards; that was passed off as something else, and that most likely a huge percentage of (especially younger or less experienced) gamers bought into it and accepted GW's marketing spiel despite the opposite being the case.
The important thing here is that (despite these arguments about GW being in the right or the wrong) those who access the Dakka community or other websites like it have been warned about Finecast, and perhaps haven't lost money as a result, or at least know to check their purchases. So the community has had some influence and positive affect on the wargaming industry in general, when looking at the wider view.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Peregrine wrote:Fine, replace "suing" with "taking legal action" if that's the route you see it going. The point is that there's no grounds for it.
Semantics won't get you anywhere...
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Post by: pixelpusher
Press releases isn't advertising per se. It's PR and also used to gather interest in the company stock. So usually it's covered under different (or no) standards than advertising.
Regarding the OP, I guess that their organization just isn't set up to have a governing body giving rulings on the fly. Of course, they also have to find someone that has skin thick enough to handle Dakka and pay them enough to actually make it worth sifting through all the crap.
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Post by: Lanrak
GW plc does not have a community representative because its prime demoghraphic is not a community.
Games companies have a 'gaming community' to engage with..
Collectable minature companies have a 'collecting community' to engage with.
When you sell toy soldiers to children , you just make them 'shiney' and its job done...
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Post by: Buzzsaw
insaniak wrote:Peregrine wrote:Anyone who thinks that it's possible, or even close to possible, to successfully sue GW for false advertising. For that to be possible their marketing claims would have to go well beyond the general (and entirely legal) level of "our FineBurgers are the best ever!" optimism.
That makes no sense.
For starters, nobody would be 'suing' GW for false advertising. There are advertising regulators who take care of that if they receive enough complaints about a particular product and the way it is being promoted.
Secondly, thinking that one company is falsely representing their product in no way equates to thinking that they are the only company that is doing so.
Your second point is quite correct, but your first point is slightly off: while the FTC could certainly step in, in the US the end consumer would also have legal recourse against GW, if they felt that their purchase was sufficiently divergent from the claims represented it. That said, owing to the small individual exposure, the only case likely would be something along the lines of a class action, and given the possible recovery, barring a hobbyist attorney with an ax to grind, such an action seems unlikely.
mattyrm wrote:...
But as I've repeated several times, the point is not that GW are being honest regards their advertising....
I have now presented you with the legal standards as they pertain to the US, and how they precisely prohibit dishonesty, as opposed to mere puffery. You seem either unwilling or unable to recognize the difference between incorrect statements of fact and mere puffery, or even that such a distinction exists (in the words of the court, "Puffery and statements of fact are mutually exclusive..."). As this is the singularly important feature of such legal matters, there seems little profit in continuing this line of discussion.
However, this discussion of the precise legalities seems to be a bit tangential to the issue at hand. Barring someone with a chunk of disposable income deciding to test GW in court, nothing along these lines is anything more then an academic discussion. More specifically, the theoretical legal issues are obscuring the amazing report by Lorizael;
 Buzzsaw wrote: Lorizael wrote:...
If a finecast model has a defect then it the store should and will replace it. But it actually has to be a defect. Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects and just a part of the modelling process- the same as needing to rebend or fill in gaps with metal models.
He talked about some customer's unrealistic expectations that finecast should be immaculate. Plastic and metal models require hobby skills to work on and need modelling attention whether with mold lines or filling gaps. Working with finecast is no different.
So he will replace models that have mold shifts or bubbles on faces and areas of detail and broken components- things that take more than 5 minnutes of effort to fix.
But a space marine leg with a few pits or bubbles takes 2 minutes of applying liquid greenstuff or super glue and doesn't need to be replaced.
I can't believe this isn't being more commented upon, as this view, presumably faithfully reported, represents a gobsmacking lowering of standards.
...
Beyond that, the idea that "Small air bubbles on flat surfaces and bent weapons were not defects"... I cannot believe any consumer could reconcile that with the purchase of a "premium" product. Could you imagine KD replying that way when you reported such a flaw? Studio McVey? RedBox? Dreamforge? They would be pilloried, and rightly so.
EDIT:
Lanrak wrote:GW plc does not have a community representative because its prime demoghraphic is not a community.
Games companies have a 'gaming community' to engage with..
Collectable minature companies have a 'collecting community' to engage with.
When you sell toy soldiers to children , you just make them 'shiney' and its job done...
Heh, Lanrak cuts to the truth with far fewer words and far less diversion then I did. Well put!
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Post by: insaniak
Peregrine wrote:Look, the simple fact is that everyone bends the truth a bit in advertising.
Everyone does not.
Many advertisers do, certainly... but they do so within certain rules. You seem to be suggesting that the fact that 'everyone' does it proves that nobody ever breaks those rules... which is very definitely not the case. Advertisers do from time to time get pulled up for crossing the line. And quite often, whether or not a rule is broken comes down to nothing more than a poorly chosen word in the ad. To use your example, in advertising-speak calling your product as the 'best ever' is a very, very different statement to calling it 'the best in the world'.
And while companies will often make the former claim, the latter is one that is used very rarely, unless there is some sort of empirical data that can back it up... because in a slightly less niche industry, one of the company's competitors would be quick to jump on the claim and prove it wrong, in order to force the removal of that advertisement.
The fact that 'everyone bends the truth' does not in any way prove that GW's patently false claim of the best quality resin miniatures in the world doesn't cross the line.
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Post by: angel of ecstasy
I can't honestly think of one company that shamelessly call their product "the highest quality [product] the world has ever seen".
Sure, I've heard "ground breaking", "revolutionary" and "our best one yet" and even "better than other companies equivalents" which are all things that can be argued and sweet talked for.
GWs description of Finecast would be objectively untrue. And according to Swedish law at least, that is illegal.
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Post by: pixelpusher
Press releases != advertising. What you write on your companies website != advertising. So according to swedish advertising standards/laws you are fine.
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Post by: Lorizael
The black shirt I spoke to did say that if a customer is truly unhappy then he will always replace a model irrespective of the actual or perceived flaws. He said that any staffer should do the same as customer service is the most important thing to GW. Everyone should leave a GW store happy if it is within the manager's sphere of influence. Some people will always be unhappy...
I guess it all depends on what you expect or want from finecast. I'm used to spending a long time clearing off flash and filling in gaps when assembling metal miniatures.
Finecast in comparison is amazing- it's quicker and easier to work with and has less flash & mould lines.
Heating and bending a curved staff or filling in an air bubble or 2 on a flat surface is no issue to me and is part of the 'modelling process' that I expect when assembling any model.
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Post by: gunslingerpro
Why does GW not have a community representative?
"Not only must the message be correctly delivered, but the messenger himself must be such as to recommend it to acceptance." Joseph Barber Lightfoot.
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Post by: notprop
Lorizael wrote:The black shirt I spoke to did say that if a customer is truly unhappy then he will always replace a model irrespective of the actual or perceived flaws. He said that any staffer should do the same as customer service is the most important thing to GW. Everyone should leave a GW store happy if it is within the manager's sphere of influence. Some people will always be unhappy...
I guess it all depends on what you expect or want from finecast. I'm used to spending a long time clearing off flash and filling in gaps when assembling metal miniatures.
Finecast in comparison is amazing- it's quicker and easier to work with and has less flash & mould lines.
Heating and bending a curved staff or filling in an air bubble or 2 on a flat surface is no issue to me and is part of the 'modelling process' that I expect when assembling any model.
So when we get down to brass tack we have another Dakka storm in a tea cup issue!
FC is workable and sticks beautifully with superglue, where i do differ from general consensus is that I have not had a problem with the five models I have bought (admittedly all directly from GW stores after close inspection). The sword on the Lord Commisar is a bit flexible being my biggest issue but no more than I have also found on the grey knight plastic kit swords.
As for GW service always exemplary for me. You go in/call and you pretty much get what you ask for, allot other shops in the uk I find you have the throw a few feths around before you get what you are actually entitled to.
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Post by: Lanrak
Hi notprop.
GW plc are eager to replace any product instead of a full refund on the purchase price, as it is far cheaper for them to do so.(Actual cost of manufacture is less than 25% of retail.)
And they have to refund purchase price or replace any item that is defective by law.
And the premium price they charge for the' best models soldiers in the world'.Its not surprising if customers expect perfection...
Can you let me know what stores -companies have caused you to 'throw a few feths' around?
I we all would like to avoid them!
I am lucky as I never had any poor customer service in the last decade from any company I have dealt with.So to me GW plc customer service is pretty much what I expect from a company.
Not 'exemplary' , but expected.
Its just a pity GW plc can not be bothered to support their game systems and rule sets like other companies do.
Perhaps if they did ,a GW gamer community rep might stand a chance...
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Post by: Rainbow Dash
yeah playtesting is a concept they don't seem to do anymore
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Post by: ExNoctemNacimur
They DO playtest. They DON'T get random people on the interwebz to playtest. They probably playtest it themselves or playtest within a small group of outside people. As GW peeps aren't exactly known for being no. 1 tournament players, there are loads of flaws.
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Post by: heartserenade
That's all well and good that they can replace Finecast, but it would've been avoided if they don't need replacement in the first place. And how about us countries that don't have GW stores? I need to wait at least a month for a replacement to arrive, and if it's subpar I need to wait at least a month again. Even one month of waiting for a replacement that MIGHT be up to scratch is not enough to justify the time wasted waiting for the model to arrive.
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Post by: Davylove21
I would assume that not involving the public in the creation of rules is about brand management. That's why rules cost so much and see so little of the public before release, so as to maintain the veneer of quality.
I would also assume that's the reason for high-priced models. Quality is linked to price for many consumers.
If the company had a representative on this board, they would be doing little more than answering for this or that crime against wargaming. GW want to be the lawmakers when it comes to tabletop gaming, so that just wouldn't do.
I'm not suggesting it works or is the right way to go about things, but they are the #1 wargaming company. I personally think they're worrying too much about making hay while the Sun shines and not enough on removing the stigma attached to wargaming.
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Post by: kronk
On finecast, I've been pretty lucky with my models. Some friends have not been so lucky. Air bubbles, broken pieces, etc. Especially some of the necron lords with their super thin ankles and staves of Ra or whatever...
I have ordered, assembled, and primed three of the new FineCast models that came out with the Chaos Release: Warpsmith, Dark Apostle (screw you for judging me, I like this model!), and the new Sorcerer and didn't have an issue with any of them. I did trim the Dark Apostles scrolls down some. They are comically long. Shortened, they look just fine. Anyhow, perhaps it's getting better or perhaps I continue to be incredibly lucky with finecast.
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Post by: Alfndrate
 kronk wrote:On finecast, I've been pretty lucky with my models. Some friends have not been so lucky. Air bubbles, broken pieces, etc. Especially some of the necron lords with their super thin ankles and staves of Ra or whatever...
I have ordered, assembled, and primed three of the new FineCast models that came out with the Chaos Release: Warpsmith, Dark Apostle (screw you for judging me, I like this model!), and the new Sorcerer and didn't have an issue with any of them. I did trim the Dark Apostles scrolls down some. They are comically long. Shortened, they look just fine. Anyhow, perhaps it's getting better or perhaps I continue to be incredibly lucky with finecast.
I picked up a Chaplain in Terminator Armor on Friday. There are small air bubbles on the underside of his Crozius Arcanum, and on his right arm. The Storm Bolter is missing the backs on 4 bolt rounds, and there are a few other air bubbles... Sadly, it's not perfect, and it shouldn't be. I called GW Customer service about this, since this is the second finecast model I've bought with issues trying to get replacements, but I am not holding my breath  Mostly cause I need the model more than I need it in perfect condition...
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Post by: Rainbow Dash
ExNoctemNacimur wrote:They DO playtest. They DON'T get random people on the interwebz to playtest. They probably playtest it themselves or playtest within a small group of outside people. As GW peeps aren't exactly known for being no. 1 tournament players, there are loads of flaws.
I refuse to believe that anyone playtested Daemons (fantasy) or Grey Knights, or beastmen
they had to overhall the entire game of fantasy to fix the problems that daemons caused
yeah I totally buy they meant to do that and didn't just spit out a codex because they felt it could sell the most models
or on the other coin, Beastmen were horrible in their new codex from day one
Sisters are garbage (anything with a white dwarf is garbage)
the game isn't at all balanced, and if they did actually do some semblance of testing or anything, it would be somewhat
every game has its flaws but other companies seem to iron it out pretty well
to my knowledge Privateer Press doesn't have its own Matt Ward screwing up everything
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Post by: battleranch
Rainbow Dash wrote: ExNoctemNacimur wrote:They DO playtest. They DON'T get random people on the interwebz to playtest. They probably playtest it themselves or playtest within a small group of outside people. As GW peeps aren't exactly known for being no. 1 tournament players, there are loads of flaws.
I refuse to believe that anyone playtested Daemons (fantasy) or Grey Knights, or Beastmen
they had to overhall the entire game of fantasy to fix the problems that daemons caused
yeah I totally buy they meant to do that and didn't just spit out a codex because they felt it could sell the most models
or on the other coin, Beastmen were horrible in their new codex from day one
Sisters are garbage (anything with a white dwarf is garbage)
the game isn't at all balanced, and if they did actually do some semblance of testing or anything, it would be somewhat
every game has its flaws but other companies seem to iron it out pretty well
to my knowledge Privateer Press doesn't have its own Matt Ward screwing up everything
That's not really true now is it. They probably did play test all those books quite extensively. they play game after game and hammer out rules until they find something workable. There isn't an army in the ether game that's broken. Sure you can build a list that is tough to beat, it may even win more than it loses, but it's probably has alot of the same unit in it. The fact is they don't care if you win or lose games. They want you to build armies. They want you to buy a codex, all the units in the codex and put an army together. The game actually plays better if you take a big selection of units and not just the "competitive ones."
If you want to see changes in Games workshop, vote with your dollar and buy shares in the company. Take an active interest and try and effect positive change. We can sit here an talk about all the faults GW has; but unless we actually try and change them we are simply wasting time.
Here is the Investor relations Website: http://investor.games-workshop.com.
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Post by: Rainbow Dash
I may buy 1 share
1 is more then none
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Post by: Sigvatr
With all due respect, but GW playtesting the new releases properly is just a fantasy. Do you seriously believe stuff like the codex GK got playtested before?
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Post by: Davylove21
Surely "they had to change Fantasy because of Daemons" is a myth that evolved from table-talk?
You'd need to define playtesting really though to picture them doing it. I can't see them pulling a book out of the air. They might have even wanted to create an OP book and actively playtested it to ensure it was the basis for a top-tier army.
Don't assume playtesting for balance or any intrinsically good motives when the models cost so much.
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Post by: battleranch
It most certainly was. Were grey knight so bad? Did you lose every game against them? Were they so broken that trying to play them ended on turn 2 with your models smashed and your man card cut in half? No.
The Grey Knight Codex is completely on par with every other book from 5th edition. Sure they are a hard army to play against I lost more then I won against them. But I did beat them. Any army or player can do it. Even sisters of battle and a smuck like me.
Maybe I'm just a fan boy but GW puts out quality products regularly. They supply me with new rules, models and books several times a year. If i need a community to play I make it happen myself, I'm not going to expect them to do it for me.
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Post by: BlueDagger
battleranch wrote:It most certainly was. Were grey knight so bad? Did you lose every game against them? Were they so broken that trying to play them ended on turn 2 with your models smashed and your man card cut in half? No.
The Grey Knight Codex is completely on par with every other book from 5th edition. Sure they are a hard army to play against I lost more then I won against them. But I did beat them. Any army or player can do it. Even sisters of battle and a smuck like me.
Maybe I'm just a fan boy but GW puts out quality products regularly. They supply me with new rules, models and books several times a year. If i need a community to play I make it happen myself, I'm not going to expect them to do it for me.
For their time GK had some utterly ridiculous OP features. Nothing could take them on in CC thanks to their grenades and the Psyflmen Dreads jsut sat on the other side of the board spewing 4 S8 TL shots, which were pretty much single handed the end of Las/Plam Razorspam.
Next we have Crons with Wraiths that to this day are still rediculous to fight with a 3++ save, unslowable movement, and high Str rending attacks. Not even going to mention GW's bright idea of giving no one real anti flier that is capable of taking on Cron air.
Then we move onto Demons latest shenanigans who get a quick WD update and suddenly become even more ridiculous with the ability to Deepstrike screamers and turboboost that same turn over something to strike them and move in range of Fateweaver for a invul/cover double save. Oh and did I mention flamers suddenly became ridiculous?
Then the poor CSM codex came out with it's only real WTF being the Drake. Ya know, that 5+ invul flies over something attacking it and then hitting stuff with a hellhound style low AP flamer.
Next DA will have something new and shiny even more ridiculous at a $75 price tag so they suck another $250 out of current DA players.
I finally said to myself that I knew that once Eldar get an update I'll be back to tournament level strength. Sadly though, I know that comes with a $250ish pricetag. At this point though there is enough other great tournament quality game out there, that I no longer need GW. Sure I'll keep my eldar, but I'll wait for their new stuff to come around on the second hand market. They will not be receiving my retail sales or TO services anymore.
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Post by: battleranch
This may be annoying to hear but maybe people play the game wrong. Maybe the game isn't meant to be played with 4 of the same unit to maximize effectiveness to win the massive grand tournament? Maybe the game is ment to be played with a large selection of units with a group of friends who invested time and effort into building a painting an army. Maybe it has nothing to do with winning or losing, maybe the GW standard of play testing is one that says
"hey daemons need something to do on the turn they deep strike, lets give them a couple units that can soften up targets; then, the awesome Blood letter models can get into combat!"
I'm sure they don't give two monkies if the Nova Open had 12 Grey Knights or 12 Daemon players. Games-Workshop doesn't host tournament or cater to tournaments because tournaments don't matter.
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Post by: Fafnir
When we pay as much as we do, we should be able to play it however we want. This point is irrelevant.
Maybe the game isn't meant to be played with 4 of the same unit to maximize effectiveness to win the massive grand tournament? Maybe the game is ment to be played with a large selection of units with a group of friends who invested time and effort into building a painting an army.
If such is the case, then the rules should reflect that. Besides, if one of those friends ends up consistently winning because of having the arbitrarily better army, it doesn't matter what the friends are trying to do, the game becomes stale and boring.
Maybe it has nothing to do with winning or losing, maybe the GW standard of play testing is one that says
"hey daemons need something to do on the turn they deep strike, lets give them a couple units that can soften up targets; then, the awesome Blood letter models can get into combat!"
If such is the case, why even include things like points or force orginization charts in the first place?
I'm sure they don't give two monkies if the Nova Open had 12 Grey Knights or 12 Daemon players. Games-Workshop doesn't host tournament or cater to tournaments because tournaments don't matter.
So you're saying that people who enjoy the game for anything other than an advanced yahtzee simulation don't matter?
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Post by: Rainbow Dash
That was a perfect post
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