Do Independent Characters attached to Assault Squads in the Skyhammer formation get to charge?

Depends upon the exact wording of the rule

They are not part of the formation. No.

 Byte wrote:
They are not part of the formation. No.

It says 'The Assault Squad...' and when ICs join a squad they become part of the squad for all intents and purposes no?

I read it as "yes, they can assault."

Due to IC's becoming part of the unit. The unit is still a "skyhammer annihilation force assault squad" even if commander Dante joins it.

That would be consistent with the lion's share of unit targeting effects in the game. For example, if you enfeebled the assault squad with Dante in it, Dante does not get to stay at T4 while the others drop to T3. It is still an assault squad, regardless of whether it has a sarge, vet sarge, Dante, or any other IC.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 Byte wrote:
They are not part of the formation. No.

It says 'The Assault Squad...' and when ICs join a squad they become part of the squad for all intents and purposes no?

They're not part of the formation however, and the Assault Squad gets to charge as part of the formation special rule.

the assault squad gets to assault due to formation rules yes..

the IC is part of that squad so also gets to assault with them...

you explicitly do not have to be part of the formation for the rule to take effect, you only need to be part of the assault squad.


only if you detach the IC would it not be able to charge

 easysauce wrote:
the assault squad gets to assault due to formation rules yes..
the IC is part of that squad so also gets to assault with them...
you explicitly do not have to be part of the formation for the rule to take effect, you only need to be part of the assault squad.
only if you detach the IC would it not be able to charge

The IC is not part of the formation however, and would not be able to assault because of that.

Nowhere in the formation's special rules does it state that the rule for the Assault Squads charging extends to Independent Characters joining the unit. It specifically applies to the formation and just the formation.

Formation rules refer to the units in the formation and an IC joined to a unit counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes.

On the bright side, we now have a legit reason to take shrike

 jokerkd wrote:
Formation rules refer to the units in the formation and an IC joined to a unit counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes.

On the bright side, we now have a legit reason to take shrike

Special rules are not necessarily granted to or from units/ICs. The formation grants the special rule but does not expressly permit you to bestow it on models outside of the formation.

thats not true kanluwen,


the formation gives permission to the unit,

the IC is part of that unit.

there is no rule that states only MODELS in that formation may benefit,

the rules bestowed are upon the UNIT as a whole, and that UNIT may include IC's

 Kanluwen wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
Formation rules refer to the units in the formation and an IC joined to a unit counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes.

On the bright side, we now have a legit reason to take shrike

Special rules are not necessarily granted to or from units/ICs.

This is true. But a special rule that refers to a unit, or states that "units with at least one model with......." do affect everything in the unit.

the special rule doesn't say it extends to the unit. It extends to the unit from the formation.

it requires that it is an assault squad from the skyhammer formation. "If an assault squad from the skyhammer annihilation force charges..."

technically the IC is not from the formation when joined to the unit. Since formations are done before deployment, and we are never told a model can switch or count as being part of the formation. So the unit has models in it that are from different formations.

however there is no restriction that the assault squad can only be from that formation[although units cannot belong to more than one formation prior to deployment of course], so I guess its not against the RAW ie "only models from this formation may..." or "an unit that contains only models with this rule may.."

The assault squad is a unit. The IC counts as part of the unit for ALL rules purposes

The rules say the unit is part of the formation, then the IC counts as part of the unit for the purpose of that rule

The question seems to be ... are the rules inclusive or exclusive? Counter-Attack says "If a unit contains at least one model with this special rule...". Deep Strike says that all models in the unit must have that special rule. Transports are specifically stated to gain Outflank or Deep Strike from their occupants. So, no he would not get the bonus because the Special Ability is exclusive..

 jokerkd wrote:
The assault squad is a unit. The IC counts as part of the unit for ALL rules purposes

The rules say the unit is part of the formation, then the IC counts as part of the unit for the purpose of that rule

all rules purposes is not well defined.

If you join an eldar IC to a dark eldar IC, which faction is the unit? Does the IC have the same faction as the unit? faction is a rules purpose.

The assault unit is part of the formation before deployment, the IC is part of its formation before deployment- a separate formation.

When the two are joined into one unit, which formation is the IC from? Does the IC lose their own formation? (formation bonuses)

The answer cannot be the skyammer annhilation formation, because the IC does not have permission to be in more than one formation- as per detachments and formations.

The IC is part of the unit, but is not part of the formation. This rule calls out the unit from that formation. But does not say it may not include models from other formations, nor does it say it only models from this formation- so despite the IC not being from the formation it is part of the unit assault unit, and the assault unit minus the IC is from the formation. There is no restriction on the special rule that other models in the unit not from the formation may not benefit, and there is no required permission that all models be from the formation, just the unit. However the unit is not entirely from the formation, but it is from the formation with a model from another formation. Therefore it is from the formation. And has a model from another formation as well

Nope he cant. All units in the formation get the special rule, and while the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes. The next paragraph in the BRB explicitly states that special rules do not transfer onto the IC from the unit (Kanluwen is correct). The formation rule is a special rule and does not transfer onto the IC. No matter how broken you all want to try to make it, the rules are explicit.

 quickfuze wrote:
Nope he cant. All units in the formation get the special rule, and while the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes. The next paragraph in the BRB explicitly states that special rules do not transfer onto the IC from the unit (Kanluwen is correct). The formation rule is a special rule and does not transfer onto the IC. No matter how broken you all want to try to make it, the rules are explicit.

Just double-checked all the relevant pages in the BRB, and the Skyhammer specific wording, and I have to agree. The Skyhammer formation very explicitly states that Shock Deployment, First the Fire then the Blade, Suppressing Fusillade, and Leave No Survivors are SPECIAL RULES. Also, the BRB is very explicit on pg 166 about ICs and Special Rules; in fact there is an entire paragraph with its own heading that very clearly states that ICs do not benefit from a unit's Special Rules unless explicitly stated. Nowhere in the Skyhammer wording does it explicitly state that ICs joining the unit benefit from their special rules. To those of you that would argue that the IC becomes part of the unit "for all rules purposes", you are correct. However, see above in that the BRB also made an exception to that SPECIFICALLY for "special rules".

 quickfuze wrote:
Nope he cant. All units in the formation get the special rule, and while the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes. The next paragraph in the BRB explicitly states that special rules do not transfer onto the IC from the unit (Kanluwen is correct). The formation rule is a special rule and does not transfer onto the IC. No matter how broken you all want to try to make it, the rules are explicit.

It also states that all conditions that affect the unit when applied while the IC is joined to it, affects the IC, too.

Keep in mind, the question is about the unit, and the IC is part of the unit. In order to say it doesn't include ICs, one must proove the IC is not part of the unit.

I suppose a similar question is if an IC comes in from reserve, or exits a transport, and joins a unit during the movement phase that was about to assault an enemy unit, can they still charge that turn?

@blaktoof
As near as I can tell in the hypothetical dark eldar/eldar duo IC's unit, whichever model moved and joined the other would be the guy to lose his faction until the two were split again. Being GW rules, I certainly wouldn't back that up with money though. Interesting question.

Charistoph wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
Nope he cant. All units in the formation get the special rule, and while the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes. The next paragraph in the BRB explicitly states that special rules do not transfer onto the IC from the unit (Kanluwen is correct). The formation rule is a special rule and does not transfer onto the IC. No matter how broken you all want to try to make it, the rules are explicit.

It also states that all conditions that affect the unit when applied while the IC is joined to it, affects the IC, too.

Keep in mind, the question is about the unit, and the IC is part of the unit. In order to say it doesn't include ICs, one must proove the IC is not part of the unit.

No it talks about effects not conditions, and no where in that paragraph over rides the paragraphs already quoted.

Charistoph wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
Nope he cant. All units in the formation get the special rule, and while the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes. The next paragraph in the BRB explicitly states that special rules do not transfer onto the IC from the unit (Kanluwen is correct). The formation rule is a special rule and does not transfer onto the IC. No matter how broken you all want to try to make it, the rules are explicit.

It also states that all conditions that affect the unit when applied while the IC is joined to it, affects the IC, too.

Keep in mind, the question is about the unit, and the IC is part of the unit. In order to say it doesn't include ICs, one must proove the IC is not part of the unit.

1. "...and the IC is part of the unit". Correct. The IC is part of the unit.
2. "In order to say it doesn't include ICs, one must proove the IC is not part of the unit." Incorrect. The Skyhammer formation in very bold letters lists its special abilities as....special abilities. In the BRB on pg 166, under the ENTIRE PARAGRAPH LABELED "SPECIAL ABILITIES", it states ICs do not benefit from special abilities of a unit they join unless explicitly stated in that special ability.

Couldn't you argue that the SR is a rule that's conferred to the unit by the formation? As such; "Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the the independent character is with them."
Like, the IC don't benefit from Relentless if he joins DC but if a psyker casts Endurance on the unit and confer the unit a 4+ FnP, he will also benefit because it's they are granted a special rule that confers to the whole unit. By that logic, is the IC not part of a unit that has a SR conferred upon them?

IDK, am I making sense here? Sorry if I'm not.

 Zewrath wrote:
Couldn't you argue that the SR is a rule that's conferred to the unit by the formation? As such; "Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the the independent character is with them."
Like, the IC don't benefit from Relentless if he joins DC but if a psyker casts Endurance on the unit and confer the unit a 4+ FnP, he will also benefit because it's they are granted a special rule that confers to the whole unit. By that logic, is the IC not part of a unit that has a SR conferred upon them?

IDK, am I making sense here? Sorry if I'm not.

That's covered under effects and its a separate entry

No, that's ongoing effects. Effects that specifically mentions duration, like if the IC and the unit he joined failed the LD tests for crew shaken and decides to disembark separately from the others.

I'm not sure "explicitly states" has to be as explicit as you may think. Read the example given as a rule that does confer (stubborn)

Also IRRC didn't we have a similar question regarding "Rising Crescendo"? Were it said that units from the formation was allowed to run and charge as long as all models in the unit had fleet. What happens when a Succubus joins a unit from that formation? She's not a part of that unit and that unit loses the ability because it stops being a unit from the specific formation? if she joins the unit then she becomes part of that unit and meets the formations requirements of being able to run and charge, if that's not the case then are you argueing that she somehow isn't? I don't see the difference in this case. The formation requires you to be an assault squad from the selected formation in order to get that SR. If an IC joins the unit he's a member of that assault squad for all rules and purposes, thus he meets the requirements of being be able to charge.


Edit: now that I think about it, does the formation actually specifically state that they grant a special rule, as opposed to just saying that it's a generic formation bonus? If yes, then disregard my former posts and I agree quickfuze.

This is xactly the same question, and has exactly the same answer, as joining ICs to a nemesis strike force from a non-GK codex.

Yes, while the IC is a member of the Assault Marine unit FOR ALL RULES PURPOSES the RULE that grants the assault marine UNIT the ability to assualt "affects" the IC.

To summarise; if you deny the AM unit the ability to declare a charge, you will need to show a restriction on the specific permission the unit has, or you need to show the IC is not a memebr of the unit. If you can show neither - and you cannot - the unit retains its' permission to charge.

I concur with Nos. it's not a case of the Assault Squad has a rule, and that rule does not confer to the attached IC. It's a case of the formation conferring a rule onto the Assault Squad which also has an IC attached.

SJ

If that's how it worked to would state so. We can't just fill in the blanks.

I'm not sure it could be more clear in the book on this. There is literally an entire paragraph dedicated to ICs and Special Rules, specifically limiting ICs benefiting from them. The Skyhammer formation clearly states its benefits are Special Rules.

Nosferatu, the reason this argument differs from the GK's Rites of Teleportation is simple and important: the Rites of Teleportation (ability to DS turn 1) granted by the Nemesis Strike Force is a "Command Benefit", and is specifically labeled as such in the Codex, and not a Special Rule. Conversely, the Skyhammer's abilities are specifically listed as Special Rules.

And these Special rules are given to the Units before deployment?

Or are they given after a certain criteria is met (say... "after arriving by Deep Strike")?

If it's the later, then these special rules are granted to "the Unit", which, at that point, includes the IC.

 BlackTalos wrote:
And these Special rules are given to the Units before deployment?

Or are they given after a certain criteria is met (say... "after arriving by Deep Strike")?

If it's the later, then these special rules are granted to "the Unit", which, at that point, includes the IC.

They're granted to the unit, which is part of a formation.

The IC while part of the unit is not part of the formation, so would not be able to take advantage of the rule.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
And these Special rules are given to the Units before deployment?

Or are they given after a certain criteria is met (say... "after arriving by Deep Strike")?

If it's the later, then these special rules are granted to "the Unit", which, at that point, includes the IC.

They're granted to the unit, which is part of a formation.

The IC while part of the unit is not part of the formation, so would not be able to take advantage of the rule.

As many have said before me, it all depends on WHEN the special rules are granted.

 BlackTalos wrote:
And these Special rules are given to the Units before deployment?

Or are they given after a certain criteria is met (say... "after arriving by Deep Strike")?

If it's the later, then these special rules are granted to "the Unit", which, at that point, includes the IC.

It doesn't matter when they're granted. The rules explicitly state that the IC doesn't get to benefit from "a unit's" special rules. Period. No mention of pre or post deployment. Any argument that the timing matters is just an attempt to shoehorn what you want into the rules, despite what the rules actually say.

 Homeskillet wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
And these Special rules are given to the Units before deployment?

Or are they given after a certain criteria is met (say... "after arriving by Deep Strike")?

If it's the later, then these special rules are granted to "the Unit", which, at that point, includes the IC.

It doesn't matter when they're granted. The rules explicitly state that the IC doesn't get to benefit from "a unit's" special rules. Period. No mention of pre or post deployment. Any argument that the timing matters is just an attempt to shoehorn what you want into the rules, despite what the rules actually say.

No, because with the New 7th detachments, there is a bunch of Rules that get applied "when arriving from Reserves" or "when charging".

Unfortunately for the IC rule, this means these Rules get applied indiscriminately. They would need "models from this detachment only" -type Rules to avoid the current problem.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
And these Special rules are given to the Units before deployment?

Or are they given after a certain criteria is met (say... "after arriving by Deep Strike")?

If it's the later, then these special rules are granted to "the Unit", which, at that point, includes the IC.

It doesn't matter when they're granted. The rules explicitly state that the IC doesn't get to benefit from "a unit's" special rules. Period. No mention of pre or post deployment. Any argument that the timing matters is just an attempt to shoehorn what you want into the rules, despite what the rules actually say.

No, because with the New 7th detachments, there is a bunch of Rules that get applied "when arriving from Reserves" or "when charging".

Unfortunately for the IC rule, this means these Rules get applied indiscriminately. They would need "models from this detachment only" -type Rules to avoid the current problem.

It's only indiscriminate because you tell yourself it is. Sorry to sound like a douche here, but this is so clearly written in both the BRB and the formation's rules that I can't put it any simpler than I have in previous posts.

I see it as an inconvenient result of the new Detachment system and their Command benefits.

These should say "all MODELS" in this detachment get X.

Where X is a Special Rule: "All Units with X get Y"

In that case, the IC model who joined the squad does not have rule X, and therefore cannot do Y with the squad.

Big shame that the Rules are not written like this but instead:
"In addition, all units from this Detachment can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve." (Grey Knights)

When do "units from this Detachment" get the above Rule?
"in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve"

By that point, they get the rule when the IC is already joined, so he gets the Rule too.....

 Kanluwen wrote:
They're granted to the unit, which is part of a formation.

The IC while part of the unit is not part of the formation, so would not be able to take advantage of the rule.

There are no rules for treating an IC joined to a unit as a separate unit.

Either they are one unit, or they are not.

What has been presented is the fact that the ICs are part of the unit. The Special Rule applies to the unit.

What has not been presented is that the IC is explicitly exempted, the rule applies to just the models, or that the rule is undefined as to which it affects.

So present the quote to support your position of one version of the above statement is true. If your position is RAW, this should be easy.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
And these Special rules are given to the Units before deployment?

Or are they given after a certain criteria is met (say... "after arriving by Deep Strike")?

If it's the later, then these special rules are granted to "the Unit", which, at that point, includes the IC.

They're granted to the unit, which is part of a formation.

The IC while part of the unit is not part of the formation, so would not be able to take advantage of the rule.

Prove it

The IC is a member of the unit for all rules purposes. The am unit declares a charge. Prove that the unit cannot do so. Page and graph.

Home - the IC never gains a special rule. The special rule is applied to the unit. The IC benefits as it is a normal member, while never gaining the rule

Your rule is indeed clear, but is, as proven, irrelevant. It doesn't apply here.

blaktoof wrote:

technically the IC is not from the formation when joined to the unit.

You've got that backwards. He is not actually from the formation, but he is technically part of a unit that is part of the formation.

An assault squad "unit" as part of a formation gets the formation rules. When an IC joins a unit he is considered part of that "unit" for all rules purposes...."all rules purposes"

So the IC becomes a part of that unit and benefits from all rules the unit benefits from, even the formation special rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
And these Special rules are given to the Units before deployment?

Or are they given after a certain criteria is met (say... "after arriving by Deep Strike")?

If it's the later, then these special rules are granted to "the Unit", which, at that point, includes the IC.

They're granted to the unit, which is part of a formation.

The IC while part of the unit is not part of the formation, so would not be able to take advantage of the rule.

Prove it

The IC is a member of the unit for all rules purposes. The am unit declares a charge. Prove that the unit cannot do so. Page and graph.

Home - the IC never gains a special rule. The special rule is applied to the unit. The IC benefits as it is a normal member, while never gaining the rule

Your rule is indeed clear, but is, as proven, irrelevant. It doesn't apply here.

So according to your interpretation, because that's what it is.

One could take a Wolves Unleashed Detachment, take 6 kitted out Wolf lords with jump packs and assign them to an assault squad from the Skyhammer and charging first turn. You really believe that or are you just trying to be cute and break the rule set?

I wouldn't play someone that tried something so ridiculous.

 Byte wrote:
So according to your interpretation, because that's what it is.

One could take a Wolves Unleashed Detachment, take 6 kitted out Wolf lords with jump packs and assign them to an assault squad from the Skyhammer and charging first turn. You really believe that or are you just trying to be cute and break the rule set?

I wouldn't play someone that tried something so ridiculous.

The problem lies with the Detachment Rules. They are not explicit enough to over-rule the IC rule, which is all-encompassing.....
One can only hope they make it clear one day, and assign rules to models.

Currently the rules are assigned to Units. And IC are part of that Unit....

detachment formation rules are given to models in the detachment prior to deployment.

so the IC can never actually have the skyhammer special rule itself. Joining the unit from the skyhammer formation does not actually give the special rule to the IC.

The models in the unit prior to the IC joining all have the special rule, the IC joins, is part of the unit, but does not get the special rule because the special rule is given before deployment- the IC joins at deployment so misses out on getting it.

There is a section in the rules for ICs that discusses special rules and ICs, special rules only extend to the IC if it states if at least one model in the unit has this rule then the unit may.. e.g. stubborn/stealth. Or if it is a special rule like jink which states "models with this rule may"

The question then is to look at the rule and determine if it is a rule that affects only models with the rule, or if the rule is a rule that like stubborn.

In this case it is actually ambiguous. The rule states that units in the formation. The assault marines are indeed from the formation, but the IC is not. The IC is in the unit from that formation, but the IC does not lose its formation or gain the Skyhammer formation.

Further the rule does not state "if at least one model with this special rule" or "an unit that contains a model with this special rule" so it does not have the specified wording that grants permission for the entire unit to use it if at least one model has it (like stubborn/stealth) which as per the rules on ICs and special rules is required.

However the wording of the rule is ambiguous and also does not follow the model that special rules that require each model to have to benefit does like jink, ie there is no mention of "models with this rule may" or "if all the models in the unit contain this rule" which is what has been written in rules prior to restrict it to only the models with the rule.

GW also has a trend with recent rules, look at chapter tactics, where they take the time to say "a unit with this special rule and any attached IC"

tldr- The IC does not have the special rule, other models in the unit do. The special rule does not restrict it to only models with the special rule, but do not give explicit permission for it to extend to the entire unit if a model has the rule. I wish GW had better rules writing for formation/detachment special rules that were in line with how they write other special rules to make the wording less ambiguous.

 Byte wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
And these Special rules are given to the Units before deployment?

Or are they given after a certain criteria is met (say... "after arriving by Deep Strike")?

If it's the later, then these special rules are granted to "the Unit", which, at that point, includes the IC.

They're granted to the unit, which is part of a formation.

The IC while part of the unit is not part of the formation, so would not be able to take advantage of the rule.

Prove it

The IC is a member of the unit for all rules purposes. The am unit declares a charge. Prove that the unit cannot do so. Page and graph.

Home - the IC never gains a special rule. The special rule is applied to the unit. The IC benefits as it is a normal member, while never gaining the rule

Your rule is indeed clear, but is, as proven, irrelevant. It doesn't apply here.

So according to your interpretation, because that's what it is.

One could take a Wolves Unleashed Detachment, take 6 kitted out Wolf lords with jump packs and assign them to an assault squad from the Skyhammer and charging first turn. You really believe that or are you just trying to be cute and break the rule set?

I wouldn't play someone that tried something so ridiculous.

All language is an interpretation, so your point is moot

It is, however, the actual rules as given. To override this they needed to use the models from wording. As it is, is is legal to do as suggested. However page 161 can be used if needed.

blaktoof wrote:
detachment formation rules are given to models in the detachment prior to deployment.

so the IC can never actually have the skyhammer special rule itself. Joining the unit from the skyhammer formation does not actually give the special rule to the IC.

The models in the unit prior to the IC joining all have the special rule, the IC joins, is part of the unit, but does not get the special rule because the special rule is given before deployment- the IC joins at deployment so misses out on getting it.

Okay, I'm going to need a rules quote for this one.

blaktoof wrote:
There is a section in the rules for ICs that discusses special rules and ICs, special rules only extend to the IC if it states if at least one model in the unit has this rule then the unit may.. e.g. stubborn/stealth. Or if it is a special rule like jink which states "models with this rule may"

Um, not quite.

BRB wrote:
Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

blaktoof wrote:
The question then is to look at the rule and determine if it is a rule that affects only models with the rule, or if the rule is a rule that like stubborn.

In this case it is actually ambiguous. The rule states that units in the formation.

Wait, is it ambiguous, given to models in the detachment, or is it units in the formation? Make up your mind.

blaktoof wrote:
The assault marines are indeed from the formation, but the IC is not. The IC is in the unit from that formation, but the IC does not lose its formation or gain the Skyhammer formation.

Correct so far. But it is in a unit of the Formation.

blaktoof wrote:
Further the rule does not state "if at least one model with this special rule" or "an unit that contains a model with this special rule" so it does not have the specified wording that grants permission for the entire unit to use it if at least one model has it (like stubborn/stealth) which as per the rules on ICs and special rules is required.

Nope, but it does state, "units in this formation", correct? It does not say, "models in this formation", or leave it undefined, correct?

So the question we go back to is, "Is the Independent Character part of the unit or not?"

blaktoof wrote:
tldr- The IC does not have the special rule, other models in the unit do. The special rule does not restrict it to only models with the special rule, but do not give explicit permission for it to extend to the entire unit if a model has the rule. I wish GW had better rules writing for formation/detachment special rules that were in line with how they write other special rules to make the wording less ambiguous.

Incorrect. The models in the formation do not have the special rule, just the unit does. If you could separate the models from the unit, the models would lose the Special Rule. But so long as models remain in the unit, the have access to the special rule.

It's only ambiguous if you limit your thinking to only one phrase or another.

Do IC's gain the special rules of the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.
Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Does she gain the FNP rule? Clearly not.
Example 2: Celestine joins a guard blob with a commissar. Does she gain the stubborn rule? Clearly.

Do IC's remove special rules from the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.
Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Do they lose the FNP rule? Clearly not.

Do IC's count as part of a unit for all rules purposes? Clearly yes. An IC counts as a unit for all rules purposes.

When is a model ineligible for charging? Models don't charge units do.

When is a unit ineligible for charging? Locked, Ran, G2G, Shot prohibited weapons, falling back, changed flight modes.
Also, under Deep Strike: 'In that turn's assault phase, however these units cannot charge'

Is the assault squad eligible to charge? Yes, the unit has a special rule allowing it.
Is the IC eligible to charge? No.
Is the IC charging? No, the unit is charging. The IC is considered part of the unit for all rules purposes.
Does his lack of special rules matter? No, since the unit is charging, not the model.

blaktoof wrote:
detachment formation rules are given to models in the detachment prior to deployment.

so the IC can never actually have the skyhammer special rule itself. Joining the unit from the skyhammer formation does not actually give the special rule to the IC.

The models in the unit prior to the IC joining all have the special rule, the IC joins, is part of the unit, but does not get the special rule because the special rule is given before deployment- the IC joins at deployment so misses out on getting it.

Okay, I'm going to need a rules quote for this one.

Formation Special Rules: Every Formation includes one or more special rules associated with the units that make up that Formation. The special rules for a Formation only apply to the units that make it up (even if there are other units of the same type in your army). Special rules that are unique to the Formation are described in full here, whilst others may be detailed earlier in this section or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules

Command Beneifts
This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment.

if you look at the section on command benefits or organizing a battle forged army you will see the benefits are given prior to deployment, so the IC cannot join the detachment to gain the special rule. So by the unambiguous RAW the IC joined to the unit never has the special rule the other models have, as it was not part of the formation/detachment prior to deployment (or after for that matter..) when the special rule is given to the models in that detachment.

blaktoof wrote:
There is a section in the rules for ICs that discusses special rules and ICs, special rules only extend to the IC if it states if at least one model in the unit has this rule then the unit may.. e.g. stubborn/stealth. Or if it is a special rule like jink which states "models with this rule may"

Um, not quite.

BRB wrote:
Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

if you read the part you did not bold, it has the actual rules which are quite what I stated. Bolding how long they benefit from each others special rules is not a statement that the IC gains the special rules of the unit or vice versa.

Special Rules When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

again I am not stating the IC does not benefit, and I am not stating the IC does benefit. The rule does not clearly state the whole unit benefits if at least one model has the rule as per what is called out for "ICs and special rules, and the IC does not have the rule as it was never part of the formation during the time that units chosen for the formation received special rules for models in the formation (as per the rules for command benefits the special rules/benefits are given to models, models that make up the units of the formation. However there is no wording in the special rule that calls out that only models with special rules benefit from the rule. So it is a situation where the unit has a model that does not have a special rule, and the special rule does not follow the format outlined under ICs and joining units with special rules they do not have- that says the special rule has to say that it extends to all models in the unit if one model has it [e.g. stealth, stubborn], but at the same time the special rule does not unambiguously restrict it by saying "only models with this rule may..."

the end result is the IC model does not have specific permission to benefit (like the permission that is granted in chapter tactics when it states along the lines of "units with this chapter tactic may reroll 1s in the shooting phase along with any attached IC" or "if an unit contains at least one model with stealth then.." However the rest of the unit does have permission to benefit as they do have the special rule, and the special rule does not include restrictive wording like "as long as all models in the unit have this special rule and are doing..." or "only models in the unit with this special rule may.." So there is specific permission for the unit from that formation (the assault unit, the IC is not from that formation but can be counted as part of the unit when joined) and no explicit restriction to the IC benefiting from wording as previously mentioned in this paragraph. To me it is a gray area, but it leans slightly towards the IC benefiting when attached to the unit IMO due to the lack of restrictive wording. However it is still a fairly gray area.

 pretre wrote:
Is the assault squad eligible to charge? Yes, the unit has a special rule allowing it.
Is the IC eligible to charge? No.
Is the IC charging? No, the unit is charging. The IC is considered part of the unit for all rules purposes.
Does his lack of special rules matter? No, since the unit is charging, not the model.

Except if in this case, if one model cannot Charge, the unit cannot Charge.

---
Part of the problem here is that the rule isn't applied to the models of the unit like Feel No Pain, it is just applied to the unit. It doesn't care what the unit is made up of, just that it is the unit. The Formation rules in this case are not applied to models like Feel No Pain is, but applied to the entire unit.

Either the IC is part of the unit or not. If part of the unit, it can take advantage of Special Rules applied to the unit. If not part of the unit, it cannot take advantage of the Special Rules applied to the unit.

So, in order to stop it, one must demonstrate how the unit stops being part of the Formation when a non-Formation IC joins it in order for it to lose it's unit-based special rules.

Charistoph wrote:
Except if in this case, if one model cannot Charge, the unit cannot Charge.

Citation needed. Nothing in the assault rules or anywhere else says this. Units declare and execute charges, not models (unless that unit is a single model). There is no rule in the assault section that asks you to check if all models are eligible to charge, all of the disqualifiers for charging refer to the unit.

Part of the problem here is that the rule isn't applied to the models of the unit like Feel No Pain, it is just applied to the unit. It doesn't care what the unit is made up of, just that it is the unit. The Formation rules in this case are not applied to models like Feel No Pain is, but applied to the entire unit.

Either the IC is part of the unit or not. If part of the unit, it can take advantage of Special Rules applied to the unit. If not part of the unit, it cannot take advantage of the Special Rules applied to the unit.

So, in order to stop it, one must demonstrate how the unit stops being part of the Formation when a non-Formation IC joins it in order for it to lose it's unit-based special rules.

This is all true.

 pretre wrote:
Do IC's gain the special rules of the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.
Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Does she gain the FNP rule? Clearly not.
Example 2: Celestine joins a guard blob with a commissar. Does she gain the stubborn rule? Clearly.

Do IC's remove special rules from the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.
Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Do they lose the FNP rule? Clearly not.

Do IC's count as part of a unit for all rules purposes? Clearly yes. An IC counts as a unit for all rules purposes.

When is a model ineligible for charging? Models don't charge units do.

When is a unit ineligible for charging? Locked, Ran, G2G, Shot prohibited weapons, falling back, changed flight modes.
Also, under Deep Strike: 'In that turn's assault phase, however these units cannot charge'

Is the assault squad eligible to charge? Yes, the unit has a special rule allowing it.
Is the IC eligible to charge? No.
Is the IC charging? No, the unit is charging. The IC is considered part of the unit for all rules purposes.
Does his lack of special rules matter? No, since the unit is charging, not the model.

I was with you up until the last paragraph. Your example of Death Company was great. In the wording of FNP, it says "models" with this rule get to use that Special Rule. It, more clearly than other rules, prohibits the unit from getting to use FNP as a whole. Stubborn was a great example of the exact opposite, in which the wording is "any unit with AT LEAST ONE MODEL with Stubborn" are granted that Special Rule. The Stubborn rule is a perfect example of the rules explicitly stating it will benefit everyone in the unit. The wording in the Skyhammer's Special Rules, however, merely says the "unit" may charge when it arrives via DS. I will again, for about the 4th time, refer to pg 166, to the paragraph labeled "Special Rules". Again, it explicitly states that a unit's special rules are not conferred upon the IC. You and others have quoted the rule on the same page that "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes". While very true, and can be confusing, AFTER that rule comes the entire paragraph that I quoted regarding Special Rules and ICs.

If it makes absolutely no difference if the IC or the unit has Special Rules and who would and would not get to benefit from them, why does the "Special Rules" paragraph exist on pg 166 after the "joining and leaving a unit" paragraph, if they summed everything up with the "all rules purposes" clause?

 Homeskillet wrote:
If it makes absolutely no difference if the IC or the unit has Special Rules and who would and would not get to benefit from them, why does the "Special Rules" paragraph exist on pg 166 after the "joining and leaving a unit" paragraph, if they summed everything up with the "all rules purposes" clause?

Because it covers things like FNP and Stubborn, which affect individual models. The SAF assault rule does not affect individual models; it affects the unit.

If, instead, SAF had a rule that said 'Assault squads in this formation gain Furious Charge.' this would not transfer to an attached IC (as this is a model specific special rule). That's why the Special Rules paragraph is there. The IC isn't part of the formation, but he is part of the unit.

 pretre wrote:
Do IC's gain the special rules of the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.
Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Does she gain the FNP rule? Clearly not.
Example 2: Celestine joins a guard blob with a commissar. Does she gain the stubborn rule? Clearly.

Do IC's remove special rules from the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.
Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Do they lose the FNP rule? Clearly not.

Do IC's count as part of a unit for all rules purposes? Clearly yes. An IC counts as a unit for all rules purposes.

When is a model ineligible for charging? Models don't charge units do.

When is a unit ineligible for charging? Locked, Ran, G2G, Shot prohibited weapons, falling back, changed flight modes.
Also, under Deep Strike: 'In that turn's assault phase, however these units cannot charge'

Is the assault squad eligible to charge? Yes, the unit has a special rule allowing it.
Is the IC eligible to charge? No.
Is the IC charging? No, the unit is charging. The IC is considered part of the unit for all rules purposes.
Does his lack of special rules matter? No, since the unit is charging, not the model.

Very well summated. I think this is the ruling that makes the most sense - and seems to follow the rules as written.

I'm usually pretty immune to doomsaying and skyfalling but boy oh boy does this formation ever seem like a bag of nope.

pretre wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Except if in this case, if one model cannot Charge, the unit cannot Charge.

Citation needed. Nothing in the assault rules or anywhere else says this. Units declare and execute charges, not models (unless that unit is a single model). There is no rule in the assault section that asks you to check if all models are eligible to charge, all of the disqualifiers for charging refer to the unit.

It does and it doesn't.

BRB wrote:ROLL CHARGE RANGE
...
Roll 2D6. This is your charge range – the number of inches your assaulting unit can charge. This total is important, so remember it. If a unit has models that roll differently for their charge range, the whole unit must charge at the speed of the slowest model.

Combined with:

BRB wrote:DECLARE CHARGE
Choose a unit in your army that is declaring a charge and nominate the enemy unit(s) it is attempting to charge. A unit can never declare a charge against a unit that it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit that it cannot see, though it is allowed to charge an enemy unit it is impossible for it to harm. This means that a charge can usually only be declared on a unit up to 12" away (the maximum charge range for most models, as we’ll discover later).

Means that if one model cannot Charge, you have a Charge range of 0", and so cannot reach any unit to Charge, so cannot even declare a Charge.

*Bolded sections are for emphasis and not replicated from book.

I'm glad we all agree that while the ic can join, he doesn't benefit from their benefits.

No, we all agree that while the IC joins the unit he does not have the special rule in question. He can still benefit based on the wording.

It's like an Autarch joining a squad of Striking Scorpions. He does not get the Stealth special rule, but still benefits from it.

In this case you have a unit from a formation. That unit has permission to do something. When an IC joins the unit, the unit is still a unit from the formation. As such, the unit still has permission to do something. If the rule said "Units composed entirely of models with this special rule..." then an IC would cause the unit to no longer benefit, unless he himself had said special rule. Which he would not.

Charistoph wrote:
Means that if one model cannot Charge, you have a Charge range of 0", and so cannot reach any unit to Charge, so cannot even declare a Charge.

Citation needed. Not being able to charge is never equated to a charge range of 0". It simply says you can't charge. As far as I can find, there is a single reference to a model specific exclusion and that is heavy weapon shooting. Running, going to ground, falling back, deep strike all say unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I'm glad we all agree that while the ic can join, he doesn't benefit from their benefits.

He doesn't, but the unit does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
It's like an Autarch joining a squad of Striking Scorpions. He does not get the Stealth special rule, but still benefits from it.

Bad example, Stealth is a model's rule that transfer to the unit.

In this case you have a unit from a formation. That unit has permission to do something. When an IC joins the unit, the unit is still a unit from the formation. As such, the unit still has permission to do something. If the rule said "Units composed entirely of models with this special rule..." then an IC would cause the unit to no longer benefit, unless he himself had said special rule. Which he would not.

Yep.

Exactly, he doesn't so when the unit(not unit + ic unit, which is two different units) charges the ic is left behind unfortunately.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Exactly, he doesn't so when the unit(not unit + ic unit, which is two different units) charges the ic is left behind unfortunately.

There is no rules support for a single model being left behind during a charge. Try to use rules when combating my points.

 pretre wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:
If it makes absolutely no difference if the IC or the unit has Special Rules and who would and would not get to benefit from them, why does the "Special Rules" paragraph exist on pg 166 after the "joining and leaving a unit" paragraph, if they summed everything up with the "all rules purposes" clause?

Because it covers things like FNP and Stubborn, which affect individual models. The SAF assault rule does not affect individual models; it affects the unit.

If, instead, SAF had a rule that said 'Assault squads in this formation gain Furious Charge.' this would not transfer to an attached IC (as this is a model specific special rule). That's why the Special Rules paragraph is there. The IC isn't part of the formation, but he is part of the unit.

Stubborn doesn't affect units? I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion, since the unit is conferred the Stubborn special rule so long as one model in the unit has it. Others have cited Stealth as an example as well. However, that wording is exactly the same as Stubborn. Another example? Skilled Rider.

When you say that "the SAF assault rule does not affect individual models; it affects the unit", you are correct. However, again, the Special Rules paragraph states that, unless explicitly stated, a unit's Special Rules do not confer to the IC, and vice versa.

Try to make actual points instead of your opinion on a take on rules? Lol.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Try to make actual points instead of your opinion on a take on rules? Lol.

You might want to go back and check where I quoted actual rules and points instead of making things up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Homeskillet wrote:
Stubborn doesn't affect units? I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion, since the unit is conferred the Stubborn special rule so long as one model in the unit has it. Others have cited Stealth as an example as well. However, that wording is exactly the same as Stubborn. Another example? Skilled Rider.

When you say that "the SAF assault rule does not affect individual models; it affects the unit", you are correct. However, again, the Special Rules paragraph states that, unless explicitly stated, a unit's Special Rules do not confer to the IC, and vice versa.

I actually didn't say Stubborn doesn't confer. I said the rules cover that. The Special rules section says Stubborn transfers because of the wording of the Stubborn rules.

The special rules of the unit don't have to transfer to the model. But he counts as part of the unit still. The unit is allowed to assault. The assault rules don't ask if the models can assault. They ask if the unit can assault. Can the unit assault? Yes. The lack of special rules for the ic is completely irrelevant.

blaktoof wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
The assault squad is a unit. The IC counts as part of the unit for ALL rules purposes

The rules say the unit is part of the formation, then the IC counts as part of the unit for the purpose of that rule

all rules purposes is not well defined.

I read all the way up to this line and then started laughing my ass off.

It's very well defined. All. Rules. Purposes.

Once an IC joins a unit for ALL intents and purposes it is a member of that unit. Anything that happens to that unit, good or bad, happens to the IC as well. Any benefits the unit gains the IC gains and any debuffs or drawbacks apply to the IC as well.

Did the IC join a unit before someone cast a malediction on the unit? Well then the IC has been maledictioned.

The formations special rule says the unit from the formation. If the IC joins that unit, he is now a part of the unit from that formation.

Lance845 wrote:
Once an IC joins a unit for ALL intents and purposes it is a member of that unit.

The formations special rule says the unit from the formation. If the IC joins that unit, he is now a part of the unit from that formation.

Except for special rules. Those don't transfer. Luckily, he doesn't need them to charge. 

Does this rule help clear things up?

col_impact wrote:
Does this rule help clear things up?

Spoiler:

CHARACTER AND ASSAULTS

Remember, a character that has joined a unit follows all the normal rules for being part of
a unit. If a character is in a unit that charges into close combat, the character charges too,
as it is part of the unit. If the character’s unit is locked in close combat, he fights as part of
the unit.

Oooh good one.

pretre wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Means that if one model cannot Charge, you have a Charge range of 0", and so cannot reach any unit to Charge, so cannot even declare a Charge.

Citation needed. Not being able to charge is never equated to a charge range of 0". It simply says you can't charge. As far as I can find, there is a single reference to a model specific exclusion and that is heavy weapon shooting. Running, going to ground, falling back, deep strike all say unit.

I gave it here:

BRB wrote:ROLL CHARGE RANGE
...
Roll 2D6. This is your charge range – the number of inches your assaulting unit can charge. This total is important, so remember it. If a unit has models that roll differently for their charge range, the whole unit must charge at the speed of the slowest model.

A unit cannot charge farther than the slowest model. A model that cannot Charge provides quite a limitation on that range, yes?

pretre wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I'm glad we all agree that while the ic can join, he doesn't benefit from their benefits.

He doesn't, but the unit does.

It would probably be better stated as, "it doesn't as a model, but does as a member of the unit."

Pain4Pleasure wrote:Exactly, he doesn't so when the unit(not unit + ic unit, which is two different units) charges the ic is left behind unfortunately.

You can't leave the IC behind in the Assault Phase (short of loss of Wounds or crazy special rules). And there is no such distinction in regards to a (unit+IC unit) versus a (unit-without-IC unit) in the game. Either they are all one unit, or they are not.

And the rules for IC quite explicitly say they are.

 pretre wrote:
Do IC's gain the special rules of the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.
Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Does she gain the FNP rule? Clearly not.
Example 2: Celestine joins a guard blob with a commissar. Does she gain the stubborn rule? Clearly.

Do IC's remove special rules from the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.
Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Do they lose the FNP rule? Clearly not.

Do IC's count as part of a unit for all rules purposes? Clearly yes. An IC counts as a unit for all rules purposes.

When is a model ineligible for charging? Models don't charge units do.

When is a unit ineligible for charging? Locked, Ran, G2G, Shot prohibited weapons, falling back, changed flight modes.
Also, under Deep Strike: 'In that turn's assault phase, however these units cannot charge'

Is the assault squad eligible to charge? Yes, the unit has a special rule allowing it.
Is the IC eligible to charge? No.
Is the IC charging? No, the unit is charging. The IC is considered part of the unit for all rules purposes.
Does his lack of special rules matter? No, since the unit is charging, not the model.

This. No one in the unit has the special rule, the unit as a whole, which the IC is part of for all rules purposes, has it.

Charistoph wrote:
A unit cannot charge farther than the slowest model. A model that cannot Charge provides quite a limitation on that range, yes?

Not charging is not a speed of 0". This is never referenced in the rules. Not charging means you don't charge.

It would probably be better stated as, "it doesn't as a model, but does as a member of the unit."

This is correct.

You can't leave the IC behind in the Assault Phase (short of loss of Wounds or crazy special rules). And there is no such distinction in regards to a (unit+IC unit) versus a (unit-without-IC unit) in the game. Either they are all one unit, or they are not.

And the rules for IC quite explicitly say they are.

I agree wholeheartedly.

It's about the way Skyhammer words the rule. It specifies the unit. And the IC is a part of that unit.

If, like living artillery node for nids the rule was worded as "Models in this formation" then yes, the IC would not gain ANY of the benefits.

But it doesn't. It says UNITS. And the IC is a member of the unit.

 pretre wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
A unit cannot charge farther than the slowest model. A model that cannot Charge provides quite a limitation on that range, yes?

Not charging is not a speed of 0". This is never referenced in the rules. Not charging means you don't charge.

The model still cannot move in the Charge. And the unit can only move as far as the shortest range.

If some get caught in Difficult Terrain, all of the models may only Charge as far as the ones caught in Difficult Terrain. You are not permitted to Charge any farther than the slowest. Not moving is pretty dang slow in my book, and translates to 0".

But this is divergent from the thread.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
All language is an interpretation

Clearly you don't realize how absurd your statement is.

Interpretation: a particular adaptation or version of a work, method, or style

So your saying ambiguity is embedded in all communication? Why even use the rule book, just make than up as you go. Just don't try to convince others of your interpretations, or at least try to be more open minded.

I don't mean to preach and I do apologize, I just really felt I had to explain how you come across. Maybe you don't care... I don't know and now I care even less.

Charistoph wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
A unit cannot charge farther than the slowest model. A model that cannot Charge provides quite a limitation on that range, yes?

Not charging is not a speed of 0". This is never referenced in the rules. Not charging means you don't charge.

The model still cannot move in the Charge. And the unit can only move as far as the shortest range.

If some get caught in Difficult Terrain, all of the models may only Charge as far as the ones caught in Difficult Terrain. You are not permitted to Charge any farther than the slowest. Not moving is pretty dang slow in my book, and translates to 0".

But this is divergent from the thread.

Yeah, I would like to see a rules quotation for that one.

.

Nevermind.

 Byte wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
All language is an interpretation

Clearly you don't realize how absurd your statement is.

Interpretation: a particular adaptation or version of a work, method, or style

So your saying ambiguity is embedded in all communication? Why even use the rule book, just make than up as you go. Just don't try to convince others of your interpretations, or at least try to be more open minded.

I don't mean to preach and I do apologize, I just really felt I had to explain how you come across. Maybe you don't care... I don't know and now I care even less.

All language IS interpretation though, that's hardly absurd.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Byte wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
All language is an interpretation

Clearly you don't realize how absurd your statement is.

Interpretation: a particular adaptation or version of a work, method, or style

So your saying ambiguity is embedded in all communication? Why even use the rule book, just make than up as you go. Just don't try to convince others of your interpretations, or at least try to be more open minded.

I don't mean to preach and I do apologize, I just really felt I had to explain how you come across. Maybe you don't care... I don't know and now I care even less.

All language IS interpretation though, that's hardly absurd.

See common connotations for the words, "bad", "sick", and "cool" for supportive examples.

This thread is about to get AMAZING.

 Byte wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
All language is an interpretation

Clearly you don't realize how absurd your statement is.

Interpretation: a particular adaptation or version of a work, method, or style

So your saying ambiguity is embedded in all communication? Why even use the rule book, just make than up as you go. Just don't try to convince others of your interpretations, or at least try to be more open minded.

I don't mean to preach and I do apologize, I just really felt I had to explain how you come across. Maybe you don't care... I don't know and now I care even less.

Awesome, now please follow the tenets. As you failed to address my substantive point, I presume you accept your error.

 pretre wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Try to make actual points instead of your opinion on a take on rules? Lol.

You might want to go back and check where I quoted actual rules and points instead of making things up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Homeskillet wrote:
Stubborn doesn't affect units? I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion, since the unit is conferred the Stubborn special rule so long as one model in the unit has it. Others have cited Stealth as an example as well. However, that wording is exactly the same as Stubborn. Another example? Skilled Rider.

When you say that "the SAF assault rule does not affect individual models; it affects the unit", you are correct. However, again, the Special Rules paragraph states that, unless explicitly stated, a unit's Special Rules do not confer to the IC, and vice versa.

I actually didn't say Stubborn doesn't confer. I said the rules cover that. The Special rules section says Stubborn transfers because of the wording of the Stubborn rules.

The special rules of the unit don't have to transfer to the model. But he counts as part of the unit still. The unit is allowed to assault. The assault rules don't ask if the models can assault. They ask if the unit can assault. Can the unit assault? Yes. The lack of special rules for the ic is completely irrelevant.

Yeah this is the sticking point where we diverge. The lack of special rules for the IC is very relevant, since the paragraph on Special Rules for ICs specifically states they cannot benefit from a unit's special rules unless explicitly stated. Therefore, he cannot benefit from the SAF's Special Rules even if he joins them and becomes part of the unit "for all rules purposes", EXCLUDING their special rules, which is very explicitly written after the "all rules purposes" clause.

Except, as pointed out, the unit itself has the special rule, and it affects the units ability to charge.

 Homeskillet wrote:
Yeah this is the sticking point where we diverge. The lack of special rules for the IC is very relevant, since the paragraph on Special Rules for ICs specifically states they cannot benefit from a unit's special rules unless explicitly stated. Therefore, he cannot benefit from the SAF's Special Rules even if he joins them and becomes part of the unit "for all rules purposes", EXCLUDING their special rules, which is very explicitly written after the "all rules purposes" clause.

That's actually not what it says.

It says that special rules are not conferred, not that they can't benefit. They don't need to be conferred. The unit needs the rule to assault, not the IC.

Is there a reason to assume that the unit actually has the special rule, as opposed to the formation having the rule and it affecting the unit?

Honest question. I had a (very) quick look and didn't find anything to suggest the unit itself actually had the rule

 jokerkd wrote:
Is there a reason to assume that the unit actually has the special rule, as opposed to the formation having the rule and it affecting the unit?

Honest question. I had a (very) quick look and didn't find anything to suggest the unit itself actually had the rule

This actually.

The unit does not have the rule. The Formation does.

What the conferring special rules rule actually means is that even though a Warrior Brood has the special rule Very Bulky, a IC that joined them would not itself suddenly become Very Bulky.

 jokerkd wrote:
Is there a reason to assume that the unit actually has the special rule, as opposed to the formation having the rule and it affecting the unit?

Honest question. I had a (very) quick look and didn't find anything to suggest the unit itself actually had the rule

(I don't have a copy, so I can't confirm)

Most Formation rules start the Special Rule with, "Units in the formation..." or similar. From what has been quoted, "The Assault Squad ...." is the reference.

It still really doesn't change anything because the unit is part of the formation, and if an IC joins it, the IC is part of the unit, which is part of the formation.

Lance845 wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
Is there a reason to assume that the unit actually has the special rule, as opposed to the formation having the rule and it affecting the unit?

Honest question. I had a (very) quick look and didn't find anything to suggest the unit itself actually had the rule

This actually.

The unit does not have the rule. The Formation does.

What the conferring special rules rule actually means is that even though a Warrior Brood has the special rule Very Bulky, a IC that joined them would not itself suddenly become Very Bulky.

Not a good reference. The Bulky rule specifically references the model.

Lance845 wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
Is there a reason to assume that the unit actually has the special rule, as opposed to the formation having the rule and it affecting the unit?

Honest question. I had a (very) quick look and didn't find anything to suggest the unit itself actually had the rule

This actually.

The unit does not have the rule. The Formation does.

What the conferring special rules rule actually means is that even though a Warrior Brood has the special rule Very Bulky, a IC that joined them would not itself suddenly become Very Bulky.

"Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."

"Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation."

The units gain the special rules.

 pretre wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:
Yeah this is the sticking point where we diverge. The lack of special rules for the IC is very relevant, since the paragraph on Special Rules for ICs specifically states they cannot benefit from a unit's special rules unless explicitly stated. Therefore, he cannot benefit from the SAF's Special Rules even if he joins them and becomes part of the unit "for all rules purposes", EXCLUDING their special rules, which is very explicitly written after the "all rules purposes" clause.

That's actually not what it says.

It says that special rules are not conferred, not that they can't benefit. They don't need to be conferred. The unit needs the rule to assault, not the IC.

confer
1. grant or bestow (a title, degree, benefit, or right).
"moves were made to confer an honorary degree on her"
synonyms: bestow on, present to, grant to, award to, decorate with, honor with, give to, endow with, extend to
"she conferred a knighthood on him"

benefit
1. an advantage or profit gained from something.

If an IC benefits from the rule, it was gained FROM something; the unit. Conferring is granting (giving) the special rule to the IC. How are these different? You would be splitting a mighty fine hair there my friend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except, as pointed out, the unit itself has the special rule, and it affects the units ability to charge.

And I've pointed out that an IC joining a unit with a Special Rule cannot benefit from that Special Rule without that rule explicitly stating so.

My take on it is it depends on your meta.
Deepstrike is a clear cut exclusionary rule. No independsnt character can join the assault squad unless it can also deepstrike the fornaton can't pass this rule along.

The assault after deepstrike I say yes but it depends on your meta some tournaments make rules exclusionary without a defined exclusion for instance a greentide lead by a biker warboss. Bikes can't run but some tournies still allow the tide to run even though a biker warboss is attached as long as they maintain coherency. However some tournaments say since a bike can't run your greentide can't run. This is the exclusionary part of the rule. I follow the first ideal that you can charge with the independsnt character since the unit is not precluded because of the independsnt character. If the formation rule stated all models in this formation I would not allow it however it states all units In this formation making it legal.

It all depends if your meta follows the exclusionary rule.

The devastators however are more easily clear cut. Relentless is a shared usr. Drop pods are a transport rule and the rule for gtg is when the unit targets a squad they force a leadership test. Which has nothing to do with any attached charscters.

That's my take if your area prevents things like greentide from running with attached bikes then you follow an exclusionary rule and don't allow this formation from charging when the independsnt character can't charge.

Formation gives the units the "First the Fire, then the Blade" Special Rule as if it were listed under the unit's Army List Entry Special Rules section. That's what I take to mean by units "gain" a Special Rules in a Formation.

The IC is considered to be a part of the unit for all rules purposes, with the exception of joining a unit does not confer that unit's Special Rules to the IC and vice versa, regardless if the Special Rules are native or gained through a Formation due to the Special Rules section of the IC rules.

The IC joins the unit, however, it does not gain the "FTFTTB" Special Rule because of the IC rules.

So far, so good. Simple enough.

Now lets talk about gaining something vs benefiting something.

The IC Special Rules section doesn't say an IC can't benefit from a Special Rule, it says it doesn't confer Special Rules by joining the unit with Special Rules unless it states it does. This is actually an important distinction.

Gaining a rule and gaining a benefit from a rule are not the same thing. There are multitudes of Special Rules that units have that give benefits to other units by name, vicinity, or dozens of other attributes. Those Special Rules often don't confer a new Special Rule to the other unit and they don't need to be conferred the Special Rule to benefit from it.

For example; the Eldar Spiritseer's Spirit Mark

"Spirit Mark: Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Wraithknights and Hemlock Wraithfighters can re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 against enemy units that are within 12" of a model with this special rule"

This doesn't confer wraith units a special rule; it simply allows allows them to reroll To Hit rolls of 1 if they are within a certain distance. The rule "belongs" to the Spiritseer but the wraith units are benefited. No where does it say the wraith units gain a new rule; they simply benefit, as long as they meet any restrictions, from another unit's Special Rule without gaining it themselves.

Even if the Spiritseer joins a squad of Wraithguard, the Wraithguard do not get the Spirit Mark Special Rule conferred to them and the Spirit Seer does not get the Bulky rule conferred to him because of the way the IC rules work. However, the Wraithguard still meet the description of the Spirit Mark Special Rule; they are Wraithguard within 12" of a model with that Special Rule so they still gain the benefit. No rule was conferred, but they still reroll their 1's on To Hit rolls.

This is because there is no requirement to confer a rule to another unit to have a beneficial effect on it. If such a requirement did exist, that would literally break the vast majority of Special Rules out there with the way they are worded since again, many of them do not confer Special Rules out. Some Special Rules do confer other unit's Special Rules, but those specifically say that they confer another unit a Special Rule.

So, knowing that.

The FTFTTB Special Rule specifies units and lifts a restriction on what they can do; more specifically, "the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.".

So, that section of the rule gives a permission, a benefit, to the Assault Squads without any further restriction. The IC isn't gaining a new rule and the IC is not required to have a Special Rule for the unit to gain the "benefit" of the effect of a Special Rule; it only needs to meet the descriptive requirements of who the Special Rule affects. The rule simply states "the assault squads", of which he is a part of for rules purposes, so the unit gains the "benefit" without the IC gaining a new rule.

I just realized by the rules as written there are some interesting things in this formation.

It has 4 special rules, only one of them actually states it effects the unit, which is shock deployment.

First the fire then the blade, never states it benefits the unit.

Suppressing fusillade, never states it benefits the unit.

Leave no survivors, never states it benefits the unit.

The latter three special rules benefit the 'squad', never is the word unit used in their rules. The only time unit is used in these rules is in reference to the squad doing something to the enemy unit.

As squad =/= unit, since we are talking assault SQUAD, and Devestator SQUAD. which are names of the datasheet entry, there is no actual permission for the IC to use the rule under being treated as part of the unit, because the rule does not specify it affects the unit. Rather it specifies it affects the squad, which is the datasheet name for the models bought from it. This is not the same as if it said it affects the assault squad unit, or the unit from this formation. The IC is obviously not bought from this datasheet entry, and we are never given permission anywhere for it to count as being from that datasheet.

So there is actually no rules support for permission for an IC to benefit from the latter three rules, there is rules support for an IC to benefit from 'shock deployment' as it does use the word unit in defining how its rule works, and an IC can count as a member of the unit for rules purposes

blaktoof wrote:
I just realized by the rules as written there are some interesting things in this formation.

It has 4 special rules, only one of them actually states it effects the unit, which is shock deployment.

First the fire then the blade, never states it benefits the unit.

Suppressing fusillade, never states it benefits the unit.

Leave no survivors, never states it benefits the unit.

The latter three special rules benefit the 'squad', never is the word unit used in their rules. The only time unit is used in these rules is in reference to the squad doing something to the enemy unit.

As squad =/= unit, since we are talking assault SQUAD, and Devestator SQUAD. which are names of the datasheet entry, there is no actual permission for the IC to use the rule under being treated as part of the unit, because the rule does not specify it affects the unit. Rather it specifies it affects the squad, which is the datasheet name for the models bought from it. This is not the same as if it said it affects the assault squad unit, or the unit from this formation.

So there is actually no rules support for permission for an IC to benefit from the latter three rules, there is rules support for an IC to benefit from 'shock deployment' as it does use the word unit in defining how its rule works, and an IC can count as a member of the unit for rules purposes

The entry at the top of the Data Sheets description, point 3, is called "Unit name" and is described as "here you will find the name of the unit".

So, an Assault Squad is "a unit" named Assault Squad. Being named Assault Squad doesn't make it not "a unit" and references to "units" still apply to units that have a name on their Data Sheet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And adding an IC to a unit doesn't change the unit name. The IC counts as part of the unit it joins for all rules purposes, which includes its name because the unit's name is a part of the rules.

IC cannot benefit from the rules because the Formation specifically states Assault Marines in this Formation get their special rules and Devastators in this Formation get their special rules. The fact it states the specific units means to me that no IC would be able to benefit.

BlackSwanDelta wrote:
Formation gives the units the "First the Fire, then the Blade" Special Rule as if it were listed under the unit's Army List Entry Special Rules section. That's what I take to mean by units "gain" a Special Rules in a Formation.

The IC is considered to be a part of the unit for all rules purposes, with the exception of joining a unit does not confer that unit's Special Rules to the IC and vice versa, regardless if the Special Rules are native or gained through a Formation due to the Special Rules section of the IC rules.

The IC joins the unit, however, it does not gain the "FTFTTB" Special Rule because of the IC rules.

So far, so good. Simple enough.

Now lets talk about gaining something vs benefiting something.

The IC Special Rules section doesn't say an IC can't benefit from a Special Rule, it says it doesn't confer Special Rules by joining the unit with Special Rules unless it states it does. This is actually an important distinction.

Gaining a rule and gaining a benefit from a rule are not the same thing. There are multitudes of Special Rules that units have that give benefits to other units by name, vicinity, or dozens of other attributes. Those Special Rules often don't confer a new Special Rule to the other unit and they don't need to be conferred the Special Rule to benefit from it.

For example; the Eldar Spiritseer's Spirit Mark

"Spirit Mark: Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Wraithknights and Hemlock Wraithfighters can re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 against enemy units that are within 12" of a model with this special rule"

This doesn't confer wraith units a special rule; it simply allows allows them to reroll To Hit rolls of 1 if they are within a certain distance. The rule "belongs" to the Spiritseer but the wraith units are benefited. No where does it say the wraith units gain a new rule; they simply benefit, as long as they meet any restrictions, from another unit's Special Rule without gaining it themselves.

Even if the Spiritseer joins a squad of Wraithguard, the Wraithguard do not get the Spirit Mark Special Rule conferred to them and the Spirit Seer does not get the Bulky rule conferred to him because of the way the IC rules work. However, the Wraithguard still meet the description of the Spirit Mark Special Rule; they are Wraithguard within 12" of a model with that Special Rule so they still gain the benefit. No rule was conferred, but they still reroll their 1's on To Hit rolls.

This is because there is no requirement to confer a rule to another unit to have a beneficial effect on it. If such a requirement did exist, that would literally break the vast majority of Special Rules out there with the way they are worded since again, many of them do not confer Special Rules out. Some Special Rules do confer other unit's Special Rules, but those specifically say that they confer another unit a Special Rule.

So, knowing that.

The FTFTTB Special Rule specifies units and lifts a restriction on what they can do; more specifically, "the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.".

So, that section of the rule gives a permission, a benefit, to the Assault Squads without any further restriction. The IC isn't gaining a new rule and the IC is not required to have a Special Rule for the unit to gain the "benefit" of the effect of a Special Rule; it only needs to meet the descriptive requirements of who the Special Rule affects. The rule simply states "the assault squads", of which he is a part of for rules purposes, so the unit gains the "benefit" without the IC gaining a new rule.

Sorry that argument's completely off. Those Wraith units absolutely are conferred (granted) that Special Rule....so long as they are within the parameters of the rule (within 12" of Spiritseer)! After the Assault Squad lands and assaults using FTFTTB, did they stop being conferred that rule? Yes! because they no longer meet the parameters of the rule. They are no longer arriving from Deep Strike on turn 1 or 2.

 gmaleron wrote:
the Formation specifically states Assault Marines in this Formation get their special rules and Devastators in this Formation

All the references are to "Assault Squad(s)" and "Devestator Squad(s)", there is no reference to "Assault Marines" in the formation sheet; if there is, be specific, where is it?

Not even the Data Sheets for Assault and Devestator Squads reference "Assault Marines" or "Devestator Marines".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Homeskillet wrote:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:
Formation gives the units the "First the Fire, then the Blade" Special Rule as if it were listed under the unit's Army List Entry Special Rules section. That's what I take to mean by units "gain" a Special Rules in a Formation.

The IC is considered to be a part of the unit for all rules purposes, with the exception of joining a unit does not confer that unit's Special Rules to the IC and vice versa, regardless if the Special Rules are native or gained through a Formation due to the Special Rules section of the IC rules.

The IC joins the unit, however, it does not gain the "FTFTTB" Special Rule because of the IC rules.

So far, so good. Simple enough.

Now lets talk about gaining something vs benefiting something.

The IC Special Rules section doesn't say an IC can't benefit from a Special Rule, it says it doesn't confer Special Rules by joining the unit with Special Rules unless it states it does. This is actually an important distinction.

Gaining a rule and gaining a benefit from a rule are not the same thing. There are multitudes of Special Rules that units have that give benefits to other units by name, vicinity, or dozens of other attributes. Those Special Rules often don't confer a new Special Rule to the other unit and they don't need to be conferred the Special Rule to benefit from it.

For example; the Eldar Spiritseer's Spirit Mark

"Spirit Mark: Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Wraithknights and Hemlock Wraithfighters can re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 against enemy units that are within 12" of a model with this special rule"

This doesn't confer wraith units a special rule; it simply allows allows them to reroll To Hit rolls of 1 if they are within a certain distance. The rule "belongs" to the Spiritseer but the wraith units are benefited. No where does it say the wraith units gain a new rule; they simply benefit, as long as they meet any restrictions, from another unit's Special Rule without gaining it themselves.

Even if the Spiritseer joins a squad of Wraithguard, the Wraithguard do not get the Spirit Mark Special Rule conferred to them and the Spirit Seer does not get the Bulky rule conferred to him because of the way the IC rules work. However, the Wraithguard still meet the description of the Spirit Mark Special Rule; they are Wraithguard within 12" of a model with that Special Rule so they still gain the benefit. No rule was conferred, but they still reroll their 1's on To Hit rolls.

This is because there is no requirement to confer a rule to another unit to have a beneficial effect on it. If such a requirement did exist, that would literally break the vast majority of Special Rules out there with the way they are worded since again, many of them do not confer Special Rules out. Some Special Rules do confer other unit's Special Rules, but those specifically say that they confer another unit a Special Rule.

So, knowing that.

The FTFTTB Special Rule specifies units and lifts a restriction on what they can do; more specifically, "the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.".

So, that section of the rule gives a permission, a benefit, to the Assault Squads without any further restriction. The IC isn't gaining a new rule and the IC is not required to have a Special Rule for the unit to gain the "benefit" of the effect of a Special Rule; it only needs to meet the descriptive requirements of who the Special Rule affects. The rule simply states "the assault squads", of which he is a part of for rules purposes, so the unit gains the "benefit" without the IC gaining a new rule.

Sorry that argument's completely off. Those Wraith units absolutely are conferred (granted) that Special Rule....so long as they are within the parameters of the rule (within 12" of Spiritseer)! After the Assault Squad lands and assaults using FTFTTB, did they stop being conferred that rule? Yes! because they no longer meet the parameters of the rule. They are no longer arriving from Deep Strike on turn 1 or 2.

If the wraith units are conferred the Spirit Mark Special Rule from the Spiritseer and not just benefiting from it's effect, that means any wraith units within 12" of that wraith unit also benefits from and is conferred the Spirit Mark Special Rule; regardless of their distance to the original Spiritseer that conferred the Special Rule to the first wraith unit. If merely benefiting from the Special Rule actually confers the Special Rule to the unit affected, you could daisy chain the effect across the entire board as long as all your wraith units were within the Special Rule's 12" restriction.

So no, that isn't how it works. At all. A special rule is not conferred to a unit just because they benefit (or suffer) from it's effect. That would be absolutely nuts.

ICs are characters. If the IC is in a unit that charges into cc, the IC charges too, as it is part of the unit.

CHARACTER AND ASSAULTS
Remember, a character that has joined a unit follows all the normal rules for being part of
a unit. If a character is in a unit that charges into close combat, the character charges too,
as it is part of the unit. If the character’s unit is locked in close combat, he fights as part of
the unit.


/thread

Just house rule it in your local meta. This will never be determined until major TOs make a ruling and it becomes the norm. I think we all know what that ruling will be. I know I'm not interested in playing "Donkeycavehammer".

BlackSwanDelta wrote:
Formation gives the units the "First the Fire, then the Blade" Special Rule as if it were listed under the unit's Army List Entry Special Rules section. That's what I take to mean by units "gain" a Special Rules in a Formation.

The IC is considered to be a part of the unit for all rules purposes, with the exception of joining a unit does not confer that unit's Special Rules to the IC and vice versa, regardless if the Special Rules are native or gained through a Formation due to the Special Rules section of the IC rules.

The IC joins the unit, however, it does not gain the "FTFTTB" Special Rule because of the IC rules.

So far, so good. Simple enough.

Now lets talk about gaining something vs benefiting something.

The IC Special Rules section doesn't say an IC can't benefit from a Special Rule, it says it doesn't confer Special Rules by joining the unit with Special Rules unless it states it does. This is actually an important distinction.

Gaining a rule and gaining a benefit from a rule are not the same thing. There are multitudes of Special Rules that units have that give benefits to other units by name, vicinity, or dozens of other attributes. Those Special Rules often don't confer a new Special Rule to the other unit and they don't need to be conferred the Special Rule to benefit from it.

For example; the Eldar Spiritseer's Spirit Mark

"Spirit Mark: Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Wraithknights and Hemlock Wraithfighters can re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 against enemy units that are within 12" of a model with this special rule"

This doesn't confer wraith units a special rule; it simply allows allows them to reroll To Hit rolls of 1 if they are within a certain distance. The rule "belongs" to the Spiritseer but the wraith units are benefited. No where does it say the wraith units gain a new rule; they simply benefit, as long as they meet any restrictions, from another unit's Special Rule without gaining it themselves.

Even if the Spiritseer joins a squad of Wraithguard, the Wraithguard do not get the Spirit Mark Special Rule conferred to them and the Spirit Seer does not get the Bulky rule conferred to him because of the way the IC rules work. However, the Wraithguard still meet the description of the Spirit Mark Special Rule; they are Wraithguard within 12" of a model with that Special Rule so they still gain the benefit. No rule was conferred, but they still reroll their 1's on To Hit rolls.

This is because there is no requirement to confer a rule to another unit to have a beneficial effect on it. If such a requirement did exist, that would literally break the vast majority of Special Rules out there with the way they are worded since again, many of them do not confer Special Rules out. Some Special Rules do confer other unit's Special Rules, but those specifically say that they confer another unit a Special Rule.

So, knowing that.

The FTFTTB Special Rule specifies units and lifts a restriction on what they can do; more specifically, "the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.".

So, that section of the rule gives a permission, a benefit, to the Assault Squads without any further restriction. The IC isn't gaining a new rule and the IC is not required to have a Special Rule for the unit to gain the "benefit" of the effect of a Special Rule; it only needs to meet the descriptive requirements of who the Special Rule affects. The rule simply states "the assault squads", of which he is a part of for rules purposes, so the unit gains the "benefit" without the IC gaining a new rule.

 Byte wrote:
Just house rule it in your local meta. This will never be determined until major TOs make a ruling and it becomes the norm. I think we all know what that ruling will be. I know I'm not interested in playing "Donkeycavehammer".

Why house rule it when the rules are exceedingly clear that the IC can charge right along with the unit? There is a rule that unequivocally makes it so. See my post directly above yours.

Also. People don't ask questions in YMDC just to be told to "house rule it"

col_impact wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Just house rule it in your local meta. This will never be determined until major TOs make a ruling and it becomes the norm. I think we all know what that ruling will be. I know I'm not interested in playing "Donkeycavehammer".

Why house rule it when the rules are exceedingly clear that the IC can charge right along with the unit? There is a rule that unequivocally makes it so. See my post directly above yours.

The rule you quoted covers the general situation of all models in a unit, including the characters, being eligible to assault, and clarifies that if one assaults, they all assault. It does not cover the more specific situation of one or more of the models being ineligible to charge (such as a character firing a rapid fire or heavy weapon while the rest of the unit did not.)

 jokerkd wrote:
Also. People don't ask questions in YMDC just to be told to "house rule it"

Ok... Captain obvious much?

So you don't see the issue here. The internetz will never come to a conclusion on this until its established in competition.

Might as well start cut and pasting the same disagreements.

@col_impact, I see your post quoted above . Your on my ignore list for a reason, so don't bother responding to my posts.

It doesn't work with ic no matter how much you want it too. People twist words. A squad is a squad. Not "oh it's a squad but a unit.. it's a unit squad!" I swear. Some people smh

Dose anyone ever read the rule book before posting dumbass questions?? It's clearly says in the rule book that a units special rules do not confer to a IC. And seeing as the sky hammer assault is a special rule, then the IC doesn't get to assault and there for the unit cannot assault. It's in black and white, learn to read smh. Can my farseer join a spiders unit and flicker jump.? No he can't because it's the rules

I am reversing my position because of Dman137's eloquent plea.

 jokerkd wrote:
Also. People don't ask questions in YMDC just to be told to "house rule it"

Four pages of back and forth arguing does not cut it yet? Let's spend another 4 pages, right?

FWIW, players in my group don't have an issue with this as we have agreed that a specific formation is clearly spelled out, meaning the units are listed there. For us it's not formation + avec. We don't have inclination to further break the game by trying to get unbalanced even more broken.

So in this case we don't even try to attach anything to the assault squads.

Dman137 wrote:
Dose anyone ever read the rule book before posting dumbass questions?? It's clearly says in the rule book that a units special rules do not confer to a IC. And seeing as the sky hammer assault is a special rule, then the IC doesn't get to assault and there for the unit cannot assault. It's in black and white, learn to read smh. Can my farseer join a spiders unit and flicker jump.? No he can't because it's the rules

No one is saying that the IC gets the special rule. The Farseer in a Warp Spider is a bad example - the unit cannot use flickerjump at all since it requires every model to have a Warp Jump Generator.

If an Autarch, with a WJG, joins a unit of Warp Spiders, is it a unit of Warp Spiders?

Lets for a second pretend the incorrect assumption that the IC rule not only states that Special Rules can't be conferred/given between and IC and a unit simply by joining them, but it also can't use a permission (or suffer a consequence, I feel like this is getting glossed over, because I'm sure many opinions would be going the other way if the shoe was on the other foot) from a Special Rule that the unit fits into the description or restriction of (in this case, the only restriction is being the "Assault Squad").

This IC Special Rules limitation is only a limitation between the IC and the unit it joins.

Guess what? In the Skyhammer Formation, the unit that the IC joined is not the only unit with the FTFTTB rule. You have 3 other units with the rule, that the IC is no way a part of, that gives permission to both Assault Squads to assault on the turn it arrives from Reserves.

The IC Special Rules clause does not negate the unit, of which the IC is a part of, from benefiting from those permissions.

Something being OP isn't a good reason to read the rules a different way to get a desired effect. If you want to house rule it, go ahead, but this forum isn't a discussion of house rules.

 Homeskillet wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:
Yeah this is the sticking point where we diverge. The lack of special rules for the IC is very relevant, since the paragraph on Special Rules for ICs specifically states they cannot benefit from a unit's special rules unless explicitly stated. Therefore, he cannot benefit from the SAF's Special Rules even if he joins them and becomes part of the unit "for all rules purposes", EXCLUDING their special rules, which is very explicitly written after the "all rules purposes" clause.

That's actually not what it says.

It says that special rules are not conferred, not that they can't benefit. They don't need to be conferred. The unit needs the rule to assault, not the IC.

confer
1. grant or bestow (a title, degree, benefit, or right).
"moves were made to confer an honorary degree on her"
synonyms: bestow on, present to, grant to, award to, decorate with, honor with, give to, endow with, extend to
"she conferred a knighthood on him"

benefit
1. an advantage or profit gained from something.

If an IC benefits from the rule, it was gained FROM something; the unit. Conferring is granting (giving) the special rule to the IC. How are these different? You would be splitting a mighty fine hair there my friend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except, as pointed out, the unit itself has the special rule, and it affects the units ability to charge.

And I've pointed out that an IC joining a unit with a Special Rule cannot benefit from that Special Rule without that rule explicitly stating so.

Please follow the tenets

The Unit benefits from the rule, the unit is charging, the IC is never a subject of any rule, or even a consideration of it.

The unit, as proven, may charge. The IC does not stop the unit being the unit allowed to charge. This is proven.

Prove the permission is explicitly denied. Page and graph.

You have also conflated confer and benefit. The rules dont, luckily, so I will follow the crystal clear rules

Byte - your opinion on HYWPI is noted, please mark your posts as such, to follow the teents.

Page 166, under special rules for independent characters. After saying special rules (such as FnP or master crafted) don't confer it says


"Special rules that are conferred to a unit only apply for as long as the independent character is with them"


So just "merely" having a rule doesn't automatically give it to everyone, unless otherwise states "
(shrouded, stubborn), but if something applies to the ENTIRE unit, it DOES CONFER with NO RESTRICTIONS. Casting prescience on a unit od tau crisis suits with a commander attached GIVES THE SUITS AND THE COMMAND PRESCIENCE. He is a PART OF THE UNIT FOR ALL RULES PURPOSES. It is no different.

First the Fire, then the Blade: On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.

He is a member of the assault squad, and the assault squad can charge when they arrive from reserve.

If it says "a unit gains X ability", it confers. An apothecary gives a unit feel no pain. An IC joining them GETS FEEL NO PAIN. A model with feel no pain joining a unit, DOES NOT confer feel no pain. See the difference?

As an aside, this adds a couple corner cases that're pretty interesting:

Tyranid Prime joins mucolids. If he can catch a flyer, they can charge it. (Unit gets to charge flyers)

Character arrives from reserves and joins a unit that was already on the board. Unit can still charge. (Reserves rules specify unit for charging)

It doesn't change the ones that specify model:
- Heavy weapons
- Disembarking from non-assault vehicles




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Agtthot wrote:
"Special rules that are conferred to a unit are conferred to an independent character as long as he remains in the unit".

You misquoted.

"Special rules that are conferred to a unit only apply for as long as the independent character is with them."

 pretre wrote:
As an aside, this adds a couple corner cases that're pretty interesting:

Tyranid Prime joins mucolids. If he can catch a flyer, they can charge it. (Unit gets to charge flyers)

Character arrives from reserves and joins a unit that was already on the board. Unit can still charge. (Reserves rules specify unit for charging)

It doesn't change the ones that specify model:
- Heavy weapons
- Disembarking from non-assault vehicles




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Agtthot wrote:
"Special rules that are conferred to a unit are conferred to an independent character as long as he remains in the unit".

You misquoted.

"Special rules that are conferred to a unit only apply for as long as the independent character is with them."

I paraphrased, corrected.

Nevermind.

Deleted. Somehow ended up in this thread by mistake.

*sigh*

And I thought this formation was completely brokenly overpowered without this added-on BS....

Ultimately, the question is this,

Is a unit (Unit A) joined by an independent character (Unit B) a single unit (Unit A), is it a new unit (Unit AB), or is it still two units (Unit A + Unit B)?

(1) Unit A + Unit B = Unit A?

or

(2) Unit A + Unit B = Unit AB?

or

(3) Unit A + Unit B = Unit A + Unit B


In (1), the independent character and unit can charge, because the unit can charge.

In (2), the independent character and unit can't charge, because it's no longer the unit that can charge..

In (3), the independent character and the unit can't charge, because one of its components can't charge.


My understanding from the rules is that the independent character is considered to be part of the unit for all intents and purposes, making it #1. In this situation, the unit is still Unit A, and Unit A can charge. It is not Unit AB, because the rules don't say it becomes a new unit, even though Unit AB would be unable to charge because those rules wouldn't apply to it. It is also not Unit A + Unit B, since the rules say the IC becomes part of the unit, so the limitations on Unit B are ignored, since Unit B no longer functionally exists. Hilariously, as pretre pointed out, this DOES mean that a character that arrives from reserves and joins a unit already on the board can indeed declare a charge still, as the Tyranid Prime charge the flyer in the squad of Mucolids.

 Yarium wrote:
Hilariously, as pretre pointed out, this DOES mean that a character that arrives from reserves and joins a unit already on the board can indeed declare a charge still, as the Tyranid Prime charge the flyer in the squad of Mucolids.

Not quite, but that is not the purpose of this thread, and has already been gone over.

 Yarium wrote:
Ultimately, the question is this,

Is a unit (Unit A) joined by an independent character (Unit B) a single unit (Unit A), is it a new unit (Unit AB), or is it still two units (Unit A + Unit B)?

(1) Unit A + Unit B = Unit A?

or

(2) Unit A + Unit B = Unit AB?

or

(3) Unit A + Unit B = Unit A + Unit B


In (1), the independent character and unit can charge, because the unit can charge.

In (2), the independent character and unit can't charge, because it's no longer the unit that can charge..

In (3), the independent character and the unit can't charge, because one of its components can't charge.


My understanding from the rules is that the independent character is considered to be part of the unit for all intents and purposes, making it #1. In this situation, the unit is still Unit A, and Unit A can charge. It is not Unit AB, because the rules don't say it becomes a new unit, even though Unit AB would be unable to charge because those rules wouldn't apply to it. It is also not Unit A + Unit B, since the rules say the IC becomes part of the unit, so the limitations on Unit B are ignored, since Unit B no longer functionally exists. Hilariously, as pretre pointed out, this DOES mean that a character that arrives from reserves and joins a unit already on the board can indeed declare a charge still, as the Tyranid Prime charge the flyer in the squad of Mucolids.

What about it is Unit A, but Unit A is made up of models, and one of those models is forbidden from charging, and can't overrides may.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
What about it is Unit A, but Unit A is made up of models, and one of those models is forbidden from charging, and can't overrides may.

Then you are saying that it is Unit A + Unit B, or Unit AB. Unit A is able to charge, regardless of whether or not one of its constituents would be able to charge if it were a separate unit. The rule says "Unit A can charge", which is a specific rule that overrides the general rule that such units cannot declare charges. Unit A can only not charge if another specific rule (not general rule) says that Unit A cannot charge, or if it is no longer Unit A.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

What about it is Unit A, but Unit A is made up of models, and one of those models is forbidden from charging, and can't overrides may.

Not in scenario 1. Because the models in Unit A, on their own, are just as much forbidden from charging as the IC from Unit B. Being Unit A allows them to Charge, ignoring the restriction. If Unit B (temporarily) loses its identity when it joins Unit A, then the IC can Charge because Unit A is allowed to ignore that restriction on Charging.

In Scenario 2, the unit is no longer Unit A, so no longer has access to the Special Rule.

In Scenario 3, it is impossible, since there are no rules that allow for such an identification. But otherwise, it would be the same as Scenario 2, as Unit B's Charge Roll of nothing limits the Charge range to impossible.

How is this different from objective secured?

How is this different from running a unit that has an IC biker attached?

People arguing you can charge with independsnt charscters are just trying To twist rules to what they want.

If I deepstrike an independsnt character and end my movement by a friendly unit and join them. That unit can't charge.

It's the same crap. You can't join the assault squad unless your IC has deepstrike. That is stated directly In The deepstrike usr.
So the IC is forced to use its own deepstrike to enter the game from reserves. He can't charge using his own deepstrike rules and the rule book is clear ic don't gain rules from units they join unless stated in the usr.

This is exactly like a IC firings a rapid fire weapon and the rest of the squad firing assault weapons. The IC is in eligible to charge and since the rules for charging state every model must charge. You can't charge. Especially since declaring a charge is an option and not a requirement.

gungo, true or false. While attached the IC counts as a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes?
True or false. While attached to the Assault Marine squad, it is still an Assault Marine squad?
True or False. The Assault Marine squad has permission to charge?

It really depends on when the Assault marine squad gets the permission to charge. I still have not seen the full Rule to make a decision....

wtnind wrote:
How is this different from objective secured?

How is this different from running a unit that has an IC biker attached?

You do realize if every model in an objective secured group is dead but the independent character that was always with them that he still doesn't have obj secured? As such the only models granting objective secured is the original unit models and has nothing to do with an IC.

Also the attached biker to a running unit is not allowed at most tournaments however even if they are allowed there is no rule stating every model in a unit must run. There is a rule stating every model must charge. Independant characters on a bike can't run but the tournaments that do allow it still don't grant the independsnt character on bike a run move (just like this formstion doesn't grant him a charge after deepstrike) They say he only must maintain coherency.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
gungo, true or false. While attached the IC counts as a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes?
True or false. While attached to the Assault Marine squad, it is still an Assault Marine squad?
True or False. The Assault Marine squad has permission to charge?

1) False-
"the exception of joining a unit does not confer that unit's Special Rules to the IC and vice versa, regardless if the Special Rules are native or gained through a Formation due to the Special Rules section of the IC rules. "

2)false- If I join an inqusitor to the assault marine squad without a jump pack is that an assault marine squad? No it can't and has no rules associated with jump pack units. It does not gain hammer of wraith, it does not gain reroll charge range or 12in moves or deepstrike.

3)False-
Every model in a unit must be able to charge in order to declare a charge.

Show me where this formation is allowed to break any of these brb rules?
/thread

 BlackTalos wrote:
It really depends on when the Assault marine squad gets the permission to charge. I still have not seen the full Rule to make a decision....

This whole argument is based on the idea that the special rule of the formation is a special rule of the unit.

Isn't that obviously false?

The special rule is a a special rule of the formation that confers a bonus on the unit.

Agtthot wrote:
Page 166, under special rules for independent characters. After saying special rules (such as FnP or master crafted) don't confer it says


"Special rules that are conferred to a unit only apply for as long as the independent character is with them"


So just "merely" having a rule doesn't automatically give it to everyone, unless otherwise states "
(shrouded, stubborn), but if something applies to the ENTIRE unit, it DOES CONFER with NO RESTRICTIONS. Casting prescience on a unit od tau crisis suits with a commander attached GIVES THE SUITS AND THE COMMAND PRESCIENCE. He is a PART OF THE UNIT FOR ALL RULES PURPOSES. It is no different.

gungo wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
gungo, true or false. While attached the IC counts as a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes?
True or false. While attached to the Assault Marine squad, it is still an Assault Marine squad?
True or False. The Assault Marine squad has permission to charge?

1) False-
"the exception of joining a unit does not confer that unit's Special Rules to the IC and vice versa, regardless if the Special Rules are native or gained through a Formation due to the Special Rules section of the IC rules. "

You're correct, poor wording on my part. However, he is still a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

2)false- If I join an inqusitor to the assault marine squad without a jump pack is that an assault marine squad? No it can't and has no rules associated with jump pack units. It does not gain hammer of wraith, it does not gain reroll charge range or 12in moves.

Then what is it?

3)False-
Every model in a unit must be able to charge in order to declare a charge.

Show me where this formation is allowed to break any of these brb rules?

It's been pointed out. The formation gives the unit permission to do something. When an IC is attached to the unit, per the IC rules, the unit is still whatever it was before the IC joined. The IC does not have the special rule, however by virtue of being in the unit, can still benefit from it.

Let me ask you this. You are running a single Space Marines CAD and have a Librarian attached to a Tactical Squad. I'm running a single Eldar CAD with a squad of Dire Avengers. At the end of the game, my DA are 2" from an objective, your Librarian (who is attached to the Tac Squad) is the only model within 3" of the same objective. Do I control the objective? Why or why not?

"Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."

"Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation."

It says units gain the Special Rules, not that units gain the effects of Special Rules.

Gaining a rule and being affected by a rule are not the same thing.

Each unit in the Skyhammer Formation gain the Special Rule "First the Fire, then the Blade".

The rule that the unit now has gives a permission for the unit to charge the turn it arrived from Reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

And the IC counts as a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

So, the permission that is granted to the unit is granted to the unit regardless of the unit's composition because there is no further restriction.

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
It really depends on when the Assault marine squad gets the permission to charge. I still have not seen the full Rule to make a decision....

Thank you. With this, an IC joined to Assault Squads can clearly also charge.

Both Assault Squads and Devastator squads get Rules "On the Turn they arrive"

1)Did the Devastators have the Relentless USR on Turn 1?
2)If an IC is joined to the Devastator Squad before Turn 1, is he part of the Unit for all Rules purposes?
3)So who gets Relentless on Turn 3? The Devastator models or the UNIT? See (2) for which models it applies to.

Apply the above to the Assault Squads in the same manner.

BlackSwanDelta wrote:
"Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."

"Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation."

It says units gain the Special Rules, not that units gain the effects of Special Rules.

Gaining a rule and being affected by a rule are not the same thing.

Each unit in the Skyhammer Formation gain the Special Rule "First the Fire, then the Blade".

The rule that the unit now has gives a permission for the unit to charge the turn it arrived from Reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

And the IC counts as a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

So, the permission that is granted to the unit is granted to the unit regardless of the unit's composition because there is no further restriction.

Expect when it comes to IC and special rules, you all just keep trying to be that dead horse of "all rules purposes", while choosing to ignore the very next entry. It's called confirmation bias.

 quickfuze wrote:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:
"Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."

"Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation."

It says units gain the Special Rules, not that units gain the effects of Special Rules.

Gaining a rule and being affected by a rule are not the same thing.

Each unit in the Skyhammer Formation gain the Special Rule "First the Fire, then the Blade".

The rule that the unit now has gives a permission for the unit to charge the turn it arrived from Reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

And the IC counts as a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

So, the permission that is granted to the unit is granted to the unit regardless of the unit's composition because there is no further restriction.

Expect when it comes to IC and special rules, you all just keep trying to be that dead horse of "all rules purposes", while choosing to ignore the very next entry. It's called confirmation bias.

Not quite. Nobody is arguing that the IC has the special rule "First the Fire, then the Blade". In fact, I think everyone agrees that the IC does not in fact have the rule. However, since the wording applies to the unit, and the unit is still the unit (with or without the IC), the unit (including the IC as it is part of the unit) receives the benefits.

 quickfuze wrote:
Expect when it comes to IC and special rules, you all just keep trying to be that dead horse of "all rules purposes", while choosing to ignore the very next entry. It's called confirmation bias.

The very next entry covers how the Rules a Unit already has interact with a joined IC.

It does not cover rules obtained after the IC has joined. Especially when these are awarded to the entire Unit. (Which the IC is part of)

 Happyjew wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
gungo, true or false. While attached the IC counts as a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes?
True or false. While attached to the Assault Marine squad, it is still an Assault Marine squad?
True or False. The Assault Marine squad has permission to charge?

1) False-
"the exception of joining a unit does not confer that unit's Special Rules to the IC and vice versa, regardless if the Special Rules are native or gained through a Formation due to the Special Rules section of the IC rules. "

You're correct, poor wording on my part. However, he is still a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

2)false- If I join an inqusitor to the assault marine squad without a jump pack is that an assault marine squad? No it can't and has no rules associated with jump pack units. It does not gain hammer of wraith, it does not gain reroll charge range or 12in moves.

Then what is it?

3)False-
Every model in a unit must be able to charge in order to declare a charge.

Show me where this formation is allowed to break any of these brb rules?

It's been pointed out. The formation gives the unit permission to do something. When an IC is attached to the unit, per the IC rules, the unit is still whatever it was before the IC joined. The IC does not have the special rule, however by virtue of being in the unit, can still benefit from it.

Let me ask you this. You are running a single Space Marines CAD and have a Librarian attached to a Tactical Squad. I'm running a single Eldar CAD with a squad of Dire Avengers. At the end of the game, my DA are 2" from an objective, your Librarian (who is attached to the Tac Squad) is the only model within 3" of the same objective. Do I control the objective? Why or why not?

The name of the unit is not the same as the unit type. In your dataslate it details the type of unit under the heading unit type. It is an infantry squad. assault marines is the name of the squad that makes up the unit. For instance my ork tankbustas are the name of the squad if I join a big Mek to them I colloquially call them tankbustas but really it's defined as an infantry unit.

There is no rules that dictate benefits from a unit. However benefiting from an effect has nothing to do with gaining abilities a character specifically is not allowed to do.

gungo wrote:
The name of the unit is not the same as the unit type. In your dataslate it details the type of unit under the heading unit type. It is an infantry squad. assault marines is the name of the squad that makes up the unit. For instance my ork tankbustas are the name of the squad if I join a big Mek to them I colloquially call them tankbustas but really it's defined as an infantry unit.

There is no rules that dictate benefits from a unit. However benefiting from an effect has nothing to do with gaining abilities a character specifically is not allowed to do.

So.... A Unit of Assault Marines joined by ICs is no longer a Unit of Assault Marines? If Chapter tactics say "Units of Assault Marines get X on Turn Y", any of the Units joined by an IC cannot benefit as they are no longer "a Unit of Assault Marines"?

Is this what you are saying?

 BlackTalos wrote:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
It really depends on when the Assault marine squad gets the permission to charge. I still have not seen the full Rule to make a decision....

Thank you. With this, an IC joined to Assault Squads can clearly also charge.

Both Assault Squads and Devastator squads get Rules "On the Turn they arrive"

1)Did the Devastators have the Relentless USR on Turn 1?
2)If an IC is joined to the Devastator Squad before Turn 1, is he part of the Unit for all Rules purposes?
3)So who gets Relentless on Turn 3? The Devastator models or the UNIT? See (2) for which models it applies to.

Apply the above to the Assault Squads in the same manner.

This is completely and utterly wrong.
No where in those rules does it say unit.
In fact it specifically defined the rules to devastator squad and assault squad ONLY.
That is the exact name of the squad ONLY not the unit.

gungo wrote:
The name of the unit is not the same as the unit type. In your dataslate it details the type of unit under the heading unit type. It is an infantry squad. assault marines is the name of the squad that makes up the unit. For instance my ork tankbustas are the name of the squad if I join a big Mek to them I colloquially call them tankbustas but really it's defined as an infantry unit.

There is no rules that dictate benefits from a unit. However benefiting from an effect has nothing to do with gaining abilities a character specifically is not allowed to do.

What does Unit Type have to do with anything? This is a discussion about units - not unit types. If the rule in question said Jump units, then an IC in Terminator armour would deny the bonus, as the unit is no longer a Jump unit. If it says Assault Marines, it refers to units that are called "Assault Marines" which the unit is - no matter who joins it.

gungo wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
It really depends on when the Assault marine squad gets the permission to charge. I still have not seen the full Rule to make a decision....

Thank you. With this, an IC joined to Assault Squads can clearly also charge.

Both Assault Squads and Devastator squads get Rules "On the Turn they arrive"

1)Did the Devastators have the Relentless USR on Turn 1?
2)If an IC is joined to the Devastator Squad before Turn 1, is he part of the Unit for all Rules purposes?
3)So who gets Relentless on Turn 3? The Devastator models or the UNIT? See (2) for which models it applies to.

Apply the above to the Assault Squads in the same manner.

This is completely and utterly wrong.
No where in those rules does it say unit.
In fact it specifically defined the rules to devastator squad and assault squad ONLY.
That is the exact name of the squad ONLY not the unit.

Please define "Devastator Squads" for me in game terms. A Unit of Devastator Marines (models) is not called a "Devastator Squad" (Unit) ?

It uses assault squad so you don't assault with your devastator squad. Assault Squad is the unit.

what are the restrictions to the formation? if it doesn't say in the restriction that independent characters cannot join then an IC can start on the board with the assault squad...

just read the restrictions, all it says is that the Dev squad must use drop pods and the assault squads must have jump packs.

formations like this are not unusual and if they had no intention of allowing IC from joining they would have started like they do with other formations in other books.

 BlackTalos wrote:

gungo wrote:
The name of the unit is not the same as the unit type. In your dataslate it details the type of unit under the heading unit type. It is an infantry squad. assault marines is the name of the squad that makes up the unit. For instance my ork tankbustas are the name of the squad if I join a big Mek to them I colloquially call them tankbustas but really it's defined as an infantry unit.

There is no rules that dictate benefits from a unit. However benefiting from an effect has nothing to do with gaining abilities a character specifically is not allowed to do.

So.... A Unit of Assault Marines joined by ICs is no longer a Unit of Assault Marines? If Chapter tactics say "Units of Assault Marines get X on Turn Y", any of the Units joined by an IC cannot benefit as they are no longer "a Unit of Assault Marines"?

Is this what you are saying?

No I'm telling you your dataslate tells you exactly what unit type your squad is!!!!
Assault marines, stormboyz, sky claws are the NAME of the squad not the unit type.
This is on the first page of every codex.
If a formation gave all assault marines +1 atk than the only models with +1 atk are assault marines NOT the independsnt character attached to them.

This dataslate specifically only allows assault marines and devastator squads and never claims the unit gains those rules.

Assault Marines is different than assault squad.

gungo wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

gungo wrote:
The name of the unit is not the same as the unit type. In your dataslate it details the type of unit under the heading unit type. It is an infantry squad. assault marines is the name of the squad that makes up the unit. For instance my ork tankbustas are the name of the squad if I join a big Mek to them I colloquially call them tankbustas but really it's defined as an infantry unit.

There is no rules that dictate benefits from a unit. However benefiting from an effect has nothing to do with gaining abilities a character specifically is not allowed to do.

So.... A Unit of Assault Marines joined by ICs is no longer a Unit of Assault Marines? If Chapter tactics say "Units of Assault Marines get X on Turn Y", any of the Units joined by an IC cannot benefit as they are no longer "a Unit of Assault Marines"?

Is this what you are saying?

No I'm telling you your dataslate tells you exactly what unit type your squad is!!!!
Assault marines, stormboyz, sky claws are the NAME of the squad not the unit type.
This is on the first page of every codex.
If a formation gave all assault marines +1 atk than the only models with +1 atk are assault marines NOT the independsnt character attached to them.

This dataslate specifically only allows assault marines and devastator squads and never claims the unit gains those rules.

Yes, datasheets tell you a model's unit type. What does Unit Type have to do with anything?

gungo wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

gungo wrote:
The name of the unit is not the same as the unit type. In your dataslate it details the type of unit under the heading unit type. It is an infantry squad. assault marines is the name of the squad that makes up the unit. For instance my ork tankbustas are the name of the squad if I join a big Mek to them I colloquially call them tankbustas but really it's defined as an infantry unit.

There is no rules that dictate benefits from a unit. However benefiting from an effect has nothing to do with gaining abilities a character specifically is not allowed to do.

So.... A Unit of Assault Marines joined by ICs is no longer a Unit of Assault Marines? If Chapter tactics say "Units of Assault Marines get X on Turn Y", any of the Units joined by an IC cannot benefit as they are no longer "a Unit of Assault Marines"?

Is this what you are saying?

No I'm telling you your dataslate tells you exactly what unit type your squad is!!!!
Assault marines, stormboyz, sky claws are the NAME of the squad not the unit type.
This is on the first page of every codex.
If a formation gave all assault marines +1 atk than the only models with +1 atk are assault marines NOT the independsnt character attached to them.

This dataslate specifically only allows assault marines and devastator squads and never claims the unit gains those rules.

You are not making much sense, they are all Unit Type: Infantry...

But let's keep it simple:
A) What is the name of the Unit containing 5 of your Devastator models?
B) This "Unit" is the one gaining the benefits of the Formation, correct?
C) If i attach an IC to this "Unit", does it change what this "Unit" is called/named/referred to as?

This dataslate allows Units called "Assault Squads" (Unit) and "Devastator Squads" (Unit) to be affected be certain Rules at certain times.
Attaching an IC to "Assault Squads" (Unit) or "Devastator Squads" (Unit) does not change what they are:
- They are still "Assault Squads" (Unit) and "Devastator Squads" (Unit) but just with an extra model.

They do not become "Assault Squads with John" (Unit) or "Devastator Squads but with other people" (Unit)

Incorrect, re read the rule.

The unit is named as "Assault Marine" , and that unit name is given permission to charge. Joining an IC does not mean this is no longer an "assault marine " unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect, re read the rule.

The unit is named as "Assault Marine" , and that unit name is given permission to charge. Joining an IC does not mean this is no longer an "assault marine " unit.

O RLY?



I don't see the word marine in there.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect, re read the rule.

The unit is named as "Assault Marine" , and that unit name is given permission to charge. Joining an IC does not mean this is no longer an "assault marine " unit.

"Assault Marine" or "Assault Squads"? There is a change there?

I though the SM Codex name was "Assault Squads"?

If not, then what exactly does "Assault Squads" refer to, and does any model at all get to charge?

Look at the Restrictions guys, its in the restrictions of any formation.

it would tell you in the restrictions if IC can or cannot join

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
Look at the Restrictions guys, its in the restrictions of any formation.

it would tell you in the restrictions if IC can or cannot join

No one is saying the IC can't join. They are saying the unit can't assault if they have an IC attached.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect, re read the rule.

The unit is named as "Assault Marine" , and that unit name is given permission to charge. Joining an IC does not mean this is no longer an "assault marine " unit.

^The unit name



^Not even the models are named Assault Marines.

If you're looking at something different, post it on up.

WS give scout to a few vehicles right?

can you not put a unit in the vehicle and also put an IC in there as well and still scout?

Scout explicitly gains the benefit without transferring to the whole unit (as long as one model with this special rule...)

If the IC is in coherency, he becomes part of the unit. if the unit can charge, so can he. I don't now why this is an argument.

^model types of Assault Squad



^What the formation is made of

If its not listed in the restrictions, then its good to go.

it just needs to follow simple rules.

the assault squad has to deep strike. if you attach an IC then he needs to be able to DS as well


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:


^model types of Assault Squad



^What the formation is made of

yes, the formation consists of those two types of squads. and the two types of squads get special rules for being purchased as a formation

I'm telling you, if IC characters where not allowed and could not benefit, they would have put it in the RESTRICTIONS

they've done it in other instances. other codexes and supplements clearly state what restrictions are if there are any

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
If its not listed in the restrictions, then its good to go.

it just needs to follow simple rules.

the assault squad has to deep strike. if you attach an IC then he needs to be able to DS as well

That isn't the way drop pods work. Units don't need the deep strike rule to embark on a drop pod.

Niether the assault or devestator squads have Deep Strike as a rule, the Drop Pod rules have rules that govern when the unit is embarked upon it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dude, why are you telling me? Do you really think my position in this thread is that the IC can't charge?

SM Assault squads have DS rule, it comes with the jump pack.

the restriction is that the assault squad has to have jump packs in order to DS.

the dev squad needs a drop pod in order to arrive on the table as part of this formation.

id say the same thing too.

if you put an IC in the drop pod with the devs and give him a combi grav then he gets relentless for being a part of the squad

I thought you were arguing for the otherside

For a little, admittedly dated, extra evidence. 5th edition vanguard veterans could charge from deep strike, and had an extra rules line that said they could not if there was an IC joined to the unit. A book with this rule was in fact the most up to date book of its army until several months into 7th (blood angels.)

You may argue that that rule is too old to matter, though.

Everything I've read through in this thread has me believing that IC's can be dragged along in a charge.

yeah, considering you risk losing the unit to mishaps, its not exactly bonkers to attach ICs with jump packs...

considering how low on the power scale assault is in this edition and meta, its a needed boost, very far from op.

and very much RAW that it is allowed.

 easysauce wrote:
yeah, considering you risk losing the unit to mishaps, its not exactly bonkers to attach ICs with jump packs...

considering how low on the power scale assault is in this edition and meta, its a needed boost, very far from op.

and very much RAW that it is not allowed.

Fixed that for you

 easysauce wrote:
yeah, considering you risk losing the unit to mishaps, its not exactly bonkers to attach ICs with jump packs...

considering how low on the power scale assault is in this edition and meta, its a needed boost, very far from op.

and very much RAW that it is allowed.

youre correct.

I was discussing this with my buddy. the drop pods can drop no problem behind enemy lines but unless you get a no scatter. dropping the assault squads is going to be very gutsy. in order for them to be effective they need to be within charge range of a unit.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
yeah, considering you risk losing the unit to mishaps, its not exactly bonkers to attach ICs with jump packs...

considering how low on the power scale assault is in this edition and meta, its a needed boost, very far from op.

and very much RAW that it is not allowed.

Fixed that for you

dont just change someones post to suit your argument, its against the tennants, bring up a legit argument or stay out of the thread

It seems rather simple to me:

A: Formation rules apply to units during the creation of the army. BEFORE a model is even unpacked, every model in that unit gets the rules listed in that Formation. These rules are now rules for that unit.

B: Any IC you want to add is NOT a part of ANY unit at this point. It is just a model in your army, awaiting assignment. Until Deployment...

C: Upon Deployment, an IC may be attached to a squad, obeying the "ICs do not gain unit rules unless specifically said to do so" clause. As the unit has new rules now (gained before deployment, during army creation), this rule is applied, and the IC does NOT gain the Formation rules. They are rules attached to the unit and do not specifically state that ICs get them when attached. According to the BAB, no go.

Simple enough, at least to me. The test for Special Rules does not happen until an IC attempts to attach to a squad. According to the BAB, Special Rules do not transfer unless SPECIFICALLY stated they do. The rules gained through being in a Formation have become special rules of the units in that Formation. IC tries to attach (whether during Deployment or later in the game), make the test for each rule for the IC and the unit. If the rule SPECIFICALLY states it transfers, it does. If it does not specifically state this, the IC does not get it.

 Johnnytorrance wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
yeah, considering you risk losing the unit to mishaps, its not exactly bonkers to attach ICs with jump packs...

considering how low on the power scale assault is in this edition and meta, its a needed boost, very far from op.

and very much RAW that it is allowed.

youre correct.

I was discussing this with my buddy. the drop pods can drop no problem behind enemy lines but unless you get a no scatter. dropping the assault squads is going to be very gutsy. in order for them to be effective they need to be within charge range of a unit.

yup, and pretty much any player with half a brain can figure out that a 50 pt unit of ten guard (or equivelent unit of chaff from any other codex) can take up enough of the table to become the only viable charge target, which wastes the charge and makes the risk totally not worth it.



killer wabbit above is posting incorrect assumptions, which are not RAW.

you dont have to gain something before or after deployment to gain it, thats just made up.


ICs join a unit, and if that unit benefits from rules that state they also benefit that unit, then so does the IC.

it has been specifically stated other wise that the whole unit benefits from the special rule, fulfilling the "other wise stated" clause in the rules.


plenty of units have special rules that apply only to the models, and even particular types of models, withing that unit (blood claws, scouts, ect ect, many many examples of GW writing rules that exclude joined characters)

GW did not use this method to describe the assault from DS rules, and in fact, wrote it in a specific way to "otherwise say" the *unit* has permission, not specific models in that unit.

KillerWabbit wrote:
It seems rather simple to me:

A: Formation rules apply to units during the creation of the army. BEFORE a model is even unpacked, every model in that unit gets the rules listed in that Formation. These rules are now rules for that unit.

B: Any IC you want to add is NOT a part of ANY unit at this point. It is just a model in your army, awaiting assignment. Until Deployment...

C: Upon Deployment, an IC may be attached to a squad, obeying the "ICs do not gain unit rules unless specifically said to do so" clause. As the unit has new rules now (gained before deployment, during army creation), this rule is applied, and the IC does NOT gain the Formation rules. They are rules attached to the unit and do not specifically state that ICs get them when attached. According to the BAB, no go.

Simple enough, at least to me. The test for Special Rules does not happen until an IC attempts to attach to a squad. According to the BAB, Special Rules do not transfer unless SPECIFICALLY stated they do. The rules gained through being in a Formation have become special rules of the units in that Formation. IC tries to attach (whether during Deployment or later in the game), make the test for each rule for the IC and the unit. If the rule SPECIFICALLY states it transfers, it does. If it does not specifically state this, the IC does not get it.

Correct.

D: Upon "the Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve" the Units get a new set of Rules: Relentless and a permission to charge. The IC who's a model in that Unit gets those rule too.

When you've done A, B, C and D you've followed the Rules.

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
I just realized by the rules as written there are some interesting things in this formation.

It has 4 special rules, only one of them actually states it effects the unit, which is shock deployment.

First the fire then the blade, never states it benefits the unit.

Suppressing fusillade, never states it benefits the unit.

Leave no survivors, never states it benefits the unit.

The latter three special rules benefit the 'squad', never is the word unit used in their rules. The only time unit is used in these rules is in reference to the squad doing something to the enemy unit.

As squad =/= unit, since we are talking assault SQUAD, and Devestator SQUAD. which are names of the datasheet entry, there is no actual permission for the IC to use the rule under being treated as part of the unit, because the rule does not specify it affects the unit. Rather it specifies it affects the squad, which is the datasheet name for the models bought from it. This is not the same as if it said it affects the assault squad unit, or the unit from this formation.

So there is actually no rules support for permission for an IC to benefit from the latter three rules, there is rules support for an IC to benefit from 'shock deployment' as it does use the word unit in defining how its rule works, and an IC can count as a member of the unit for rules purposes

The entry at the top of the Data Sheets description, point 3, is called "Unit name" and is described as "here you will find the name of the unit".

So, an Assault Squad is "a unit" named Assault Squad. Being named Assault Squad doesn't make it not "a unit" and references to "units" still apply to units that have a name on their Data Sheet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And adding an IC to a unit doesn't change the unit name. The IC counts as part of the unit it joins for all rules purposes, which includes its name because the unit's name is a part of the rules.

No.

You do not understand.

3/4ths of the special rules for this formation are not special rules that benefit units. they are special rules that benefit the squads. Squad =/= unit. Using the name of the unit does not = a unit on the table top. Notice how the first special rule "shock deployment" specifies the rule affects the unit.

The next 3 nowhere mention the UNIT gets to do something. as such it is NOT an unit rule.

In order for an IC to be able to benefit it has to be an unit rule, otherwise the rule has to state it affects all models in the unit. It does neither, therefore by the RAW 3/4ths of the rules of this formation do not benefit an attached IC.

The IC never has the rule, as the rule is given to the models from the units in that formation prior to deployment- the IC cannot have joined prior to deployment.

3/4ths of the special rules specify they affect the squad, as in devestator squad, and assault squad. They never say they affect the unit, or the unit gets to do this like it does for 'shock deployment' or 'rites of teleportation etc' which call it out as an unit rule. Therefore it is not an unit rule. Without stating that is has permission to affect the unit, which it does not state, it cannot affect the unit as a whole. However it does give permission to affect the SQUAD. Squad is not unit, but squad does refer to the devestator or assault squad datasheet.

The IC can count as a member of an unit, but the IC does not have permission to count as being purchased from those datasheets, so can never claim to be a model from the devestator squad datasheet, or the assault squad datasheet. As only the 'squad' benefits, the IC is not from either the assault squad or the devestator squad. Further the IC cannot claim to count as being from them as no rule actually gives permission to do so. The rule on p.161 would have to specifically state it does, as it would be in conflict with the rules for organizing models into formations/detachments. If an IC was allowed to count as being purchased from a different datasheet, ie devestator squad, or assault squad, it would count as being a model from that datasheet- we are not told it is allowed to do this anywhere. This would invoke a rules conflict as the IC was purchased from its own datasheet, which is separate, and fills a spot in a formation/detachment which is separate from the formation/detachment the assault and devestator squad are purchased from. The issue here is a model cannot belong to more than one formation/detachment as called out in the rules. If the IC counts as being a model from a datasheet from a different detachment, then it belongs to a different detachment, this is not allowed by the rules as it now counts as being in two different detachments. To overcome this you could claim RAI that it switches, but this is also not allowed as it is still bought from a datasheet that is not allowed in that formation, and would leave another formation without a HQ slot-which might make that formation incomplete and not legal.

The end result is unless the rule specifies it affects the UNIT, you do not have any rules as written permission for it to affect the unit. 3/4ths of the rules for this formation do not specify unit, so an attached IC would not benefit from them. The IC joined to the assault squad is a model in the unit, but is not a model from the assault squad datasheet. The same for the devastator datasheet.

and the unit would not be able to charge the turn it arrived, just like an unit with jetbikes with an attached farseer on foot cannot allow the farseer to move 12", and then turboboost 36"- because the farseer does not have the specified rule, and just like this scenario jetbike is a rule that does not specify it affects the unit- just as 3/4ths of these rules do not specify they affect the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

KillerWabbit wrote:
It seems rather simple to me:

A: Formation rules apply to units during the creation of the army. BEFORE a model is even unpacked, every model in that unit gets the rules listed in that Formation. These rules are now rules for that unit.

B: Any IC you want to add is NOT a part of ANY unit at this point. It is just a model in your army, awaiting assignment. Until Deployment...

C: Upon Deployment, an IC may be attached to a squad, obeying the "ICs do not gain unit rules unless specifically said to do so" clause. As the unit has new rules now (gained before deployment, during army creation), this rule is applied, and the IC does NOT gain the Formation rules. They are rules attached to the unit and do not specifically state that ICs get them when attached. According to the BAB, no go.

Simple enough, at least to me. The test for Special Rules does not happen until an IC attempts to attach to a squad. According to the BAB, Special Rules do not transfer unless SPECIFICALLY stated they do. The rules gained through being in a Formation have become special rules of the units in that Formation. IC tries to attach (whether during Deployment or later in the game), make the test for each rule for the IC and the unit. If the rule SPECIFICALLY states it transfers, it does. If it does not specifically state this, the IC does not get it.

Correct.

D: Upon "the Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve" the Units get a new set of Rules: Relentless and a permission to charge. The IC who's a model in that Unit gets those rule too.

When you've done A, B, C and D you've followed the Rules.

please quote where in the rule it says it affects the unit.

blaktoof wrote:
please quote where in the rule it says it affects the unit.

"the Devastator Squads (...) have the Relentless special rule"

When does the "Devastator Squads", which cannot be anything but the Unit, get that Rule?

"the Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve"

If you disagree:
Did the Devastator Squads (the Unit) have Relentless on Turn 1 when the game starts?
Yes/ No

Is the IC part of the Devastator Squads (the Unit) on Turn 1 when the game starts?
Yes/No

For me, It boils down to the wording " the assault squad may assault..." Not "the assault squad and any characters that have joined said squad may assault..."

People will spend their lives arguing on threads like this. Facts and opinons remain the same.
The rules are slightly unclear
Space marine players want to justify it.
Other players want to deny it.

This isnt going to change until theres an faq. so reciting the rules back and forth to one another isnt going to change much. Just play it how you want too with your mates. Lets face it, youre not gonna play 99% of the dudes on here!

 Wilson wrote:
Other players want to deny it.

At least 2 people arguing that they are allowed to charge i know on here and myself do not own marines and will never play this Formation.
It not Marine players V Non-Marines.

It's about knowing RaW.

I sure hope the day comes when an FAQ pops up:
"Detachment Command Benefits do not benefit to or cannot be benefited from joined IC"

 BlackTalos wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
please quote where in the rule it says it affects the unit.

"the Devastator Squads (...) have the Relentless special rule"

When does the "Devastator Squads", which cannot be anything but the Unit, get that Rule?

"the Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve"

If you disagree:
Did the Devastator Squads (the Unit) have Relentless on Turn 1 when the game starts?
Yes/ No

Is the IC part of the Devastator Squads (the Unit) on Turn 1 when the game starts?
Yes/No

heres the problem.

You are making a leap that the rule affects all the models in the unit, without it stating anywhere that it affects the unit such as 'shock deployment' or 'rites of teleportation' because the unit is originally made up of models from the devestator or assault squad. However unlike other rules which state they affect the unit, this one does not, and you are making an assumption here and not actually using rules as written- as there are none that state it affects the unit.

Yes the unit is made up of those models only prior to an IC joining, and those models have permission to benefit from the rule not because it is a rule that affects the UNIT, but because it is a rule that affects the models from those squads. There is no where in this rule that states it affects the unit, so there is no actual "Rule as written" that affects the unit as it there is rules as written that it affects the unit for other different rules such as 'shock deployment' or 'rites of teleportation'.

The devastator squads have relentless, and if relentless specifies in its rule it affects the unit, then it affects the unit. An IC attached to the unit does not have this rule, but may benefit from relentless or any other special rule models in the unit may have if those specific special rules state they benefit the unit if some or at least one model has it in the unit. Or in the case of some formation rules like 'shock deployment' or 'rites of teleportation' state the unit gets to do something. These 3/4 rules do not.

The ability to charge for the assualt squad does not specify anywhere it affects the unit though does it? So there is no RAW statement that says "the unit may charge when.." or anything similar.

The unit may be made up of members of the assault squad PRIOR to the IC joining, and the unit would be able to charge when they arrive because they have a rule that lets the models from those squads do it, but not because they have a rule that specifies the UNIT may do it.

So when the IC joins you have an unit where some models have an ability that lets them charge, but it is not an ability that specifiies it extends to the unit like other special rule previously mentioned. The IC IS part of the unit, but the special rule does not extend to the unit, it extends to the models bought from the devestator squad. Can you find anywhere in the special rule that it states the unit may charge? or anything about the unit getting to do something?

unless you can find where in the rule in question it specifies it affects the unit?

There is no RAW in these 3 rules that states the unit gets to do something.

 Wilson wrote:
For me, It boils down to the wording " the assault squad may assault..." Not "the assault squad and any characters that have joined said squad may assault..."

People will spend their lives arguing on threads like this. Facts and opinons remain the same.
The rules are slightly unclear
Space marine players want to justify it.
Other players want to deny it.

This isnt going to change until theres an faq. so reciting the rules back and forth to one another isnt going to change much. Just play it how you want too with your mates. Lets face it, youre not gonna play 99% of the dudes on here!

You're completely missing the point of this entire section of the forum.

It's pointless in this case to say that it's pointless to discuss rules in here. This is a rules discussion forum. What exactly are you expecting to come of this statement? It's equally pointless to say "just play it how you want to!" Yeah, we all know we can do that - that's NOT the point of the discussion. What you said here was completely not constructive and entirely beside the point.

And, to refute your point, the rule doesn't need to specify "and any characters that are attached" - the core rules already cover this instance, where they declare that ICs that join a unit are now for all intents and purposes a part of that unit.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Correct.

D: Upon "the Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve" the Units get a new set of Rules: Relentless and a permission to charge. The IC who's a model in that Unit gets those rule too.

When you've done A, B, C and D you've followed the Rules.

Not quite. They already had the rules you listed in D:, at step A. When they were chose as part of the Formation, they have the rules: Shock Deployment, First The Fire, then The Blade, and, in the case of the Assault Squads, Leave No Survivors. An IC joining that Squad does NOT get those rules, AT ANY TIME, unless the rule specifically states that they can. That is from the BAB; nowhere that I have seen counters that. If they do not have the rule, they do not get the benefits. The unit gains Relentless or Chargability; but the IC does not. According to the BAB, you do not get the benefits of a Special Rule unless you HAVE that rule. This is an exception to the "an IC is a part of a unit in all ways" rule, and a pretty explicit one. Until a different rule pops up in the codex that states "as does any IC that has joined said unit," the IC has still not met the requirements for Special Rule conferral.

I see what you are saying; since the rules do not 'turn on' until after attachment, the IC, now already part of the unit, does not have to recheck on the required test for Special Rule transferal. In your opinion, since he is now a part of that unit, he gains whatever they gain as if he was bought within that unit. But I disagree, and I believe that the rules side with me on this. Even in you example, the IC in question does NOT have the Formation Rules (now the unit rules) in question, and therefore cannot gain benefit from them. The IC does not have the rule that gets the unit Relentless, therefore the IC does not get Relentless. The IC has not lost the IC type, and must make this test for any Special Rule gained or lost.

The real problem I have here, tho, is that all of this is due to some AMAZINGLY murky rules-writing that could be cleared up with a FAQ. :(

blaktoof wrote:
those models have permission to benefit from the rule not because it is a rule that affects the UNIT, but because it is a rule that affects the models from those squads.

When the rule says: "the Devastator Squads (...) have the Relentless special rule" you believe this refers to the models?
Not the "Devastator Squads", the Unit that goes by that name?

So, you think that the models in the "Devastator Squads" have the Relentless Special Rule on Turn 1, when they are still off the board?

I think the RaW disagrees.

Did the Devastator Squads (the Unit) have Relentless on Turn 1 when the game starts?

The answer to that question is "No":

The Devastator Squad does not have relentless.

It obtains that Rule later in the game: "the Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve"
When it gets Relentless, any joined IC also gain the Relentless Rule.

The exact same thing happens for the Assault Squads. They do not have permission to charge on Turn 1, or Turn 2 or Turn 3.
They obtain permission to Charge on Turn 4 when "they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve".
When the Squad obtains permission, who get the permission? All models in the Unit. This may happen to include an IC.

Assault squad is the name of a unit. Assault squad is a unit.

I do not see where anyone gets the idea that they are 2 seperate things

KillerWabbit wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Correct.

D: Upon "the Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve" the Units get a new set of Rules: Relentless and a permission to charge. The IC who's a model in that Unit gets those rule too.

When you've done A, B, C and D you've followed the Rules.

Not quite. They already had the rules you listed in D:, at step A. When they were chose as part of the Formation, they have the rules: Shock Deployment, First The Fire, then The Blade, and, in the case of the Assault Squads, Leave No Survivors. An IC joining that Squad does NOT get those rules, AT ANY TIME, unless the rule specifically states that they can. That is from the BAB; nowhere that I have seen counters that. If they do not have the rule, they do not get the benefits. The unit gains Relentless or Chargability; but the IC does not. According to the BAB, you do not get the benefits of a Special Rule unless you HAVE that rule. This is an exception to the "an IC is a part of a unit in all ways" rule, and a pretty explicit one. Until a different rule pops up in the codex that states "as does any IC that has joined said unit," the IC has still not met the requirements for Special Rule conferral.

I see what you are saying; since the rules do not 'turn on' until after attachment, the IC, now already part of the unit, does not have to recheck on the required test for Special Rule transferal. In your opinion, since he is now a part of that unit, he gains whatever they gain as if he was bought within that unit. But I disagree, and I believe that the rules side with me on this. Even in you example, the IC in question does NOT have the Formation Rules (now the unit rules) in question, and therefore cannot gain benefit from them. The IC does not have the rule that gets the unit Relentless, therefore the IC does not get Relentless. The IC has not lost the IC type, and must make this test for any Special Rule gained or lost.

The real problem I have here, tho, is that all of this is due to some AMAZINGLY murky rules-writing that could be cleared up with a FAQ. :(

So you also believe that the Devastator Squads have the Relentless special Rule on deployment, even though the Rule clearly state WHEN they obtain that specific Rule?

PLEASE read the thread before posting

Most of the false arguments being posted in the last 2 pages have already been addressed.

There is way to much unmarked hiwpi going on.

It actually makes it difficult to maintain the debate

 BlackTalos wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
those models have permission to benefit from the rule not because it is a rule that affects the UNIT, but because it is a rule that affects the models from those squads.

When the rule says: "the Devastator Squads (...) have the Relentless special rule" you believe this refers to the models?
Not the "Devastator Squads", the Unit that goes by that name?

So, you think that the models in the "Devastator Squads" have the Relentless Special Rule on Turn 1, when they are still off the board?

I think the RaW disagrees.

Did the Devastator Squads (the Unit) have Relentless on Turn 1 when the game starts?

The answer to that question is "No":

The Devastator Squad does not have relentless.

It obtains that Rule later in the game: "the Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve"
When it gets Relentless, any joined IC also gain the Relentless Rule.

The exact same thing happens for the Assault Squads. They do not have permission to charge on Turn 1, or Turn 2 or Turn 3.
They obtain permission to Charge on Turn 4 when "they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve".
When the Squad obtains permission, who get the permission? All models in the Unit. This may happen to include an IC.

The models from the skyhammer annihilation force have the 4 special rules for that formation before deployment.

Some of the rules do not have an affect until certain actions are met, but the special rule that gives that affect (ie the 4 special rules they have for being organized into this formation) they have prior to any game turn, and deployment.

So the models in the dev squad have the special rule "first the fire then the blade" prior to turn 1, but it does not grant relentless until turn 1.

The special rule that gives them these abilities as called out by the RAW are given prior to deployment, not when the event that allows them to do something triggers. ie the models have first the fire then the blade, which is the special rule- which grants a special rule at a specific time for a specific time in this case, prior to turn 1. They do not gain their formation special rule 'first the fire then the blade' after deployment at some event happening, that is not how formation special rules work.

so the RAW does not disagree, your above statements are just not correct.

and again can you find anywhere in the latter 3 rules that states it affects the units? The first rule does, so yes an attached IC would benefit, as it is a rule that affects units.

 Jambles wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
For me, It boils down to the wording " the assault squad may assault..." Not "the assault squad and any characters that have joined said squad may assault..."

People will spend their lives arguing on threads like this. Facts and opinons remain the same.
The rules are slightly unclear
Space marine players want to justify it.
Other players want to deny it.

This isnt going to change until theres an faq. so reciting the rules back and forth to one another isnt going to change much. Just play it how you want too with your mates. Lets face it, youre not gonna play 99% of the dudes on here!

You're completely missing the point of this entire section of the forum.

It's pointless in this case to say that it's pointless to discuss rules in here. This is a rules discussion forum. What exactly are you expecting to come of this statement? It's equally pointless to say "just play it how you want to!" Yeah, we all know we can do that - that's NOT the point of the discussion. What you said here was completely not constructive and entirely beside the point.

And, to refute your point, the rule doesn't need to specify "and any characters that are attached" - the core rules already cover this instance, where they declare that ICs that join a unit are now for all intents and purposes a part of that unit.

Not sure how my opinion is any less constructive than your response but okay Rambles

 jokerkd wrote:
Assault squad is the name of a unit. Assault squad is a unit.

I do not see where anyone gets the idea that they are 2 seperate things

the unit name "assault squad" is the name of a datasheet that is purchased for a detachment/formation(or not if unbound) that contains models.

those models make up a unit on the table.

I can join a Skitarii IC, an INQ IC, and a Sob IC to that unit.

Those ICs are not models purchased from the datasheet unit name "assault squad".

the unit name of the datasheet and a unit on the table are two different things.

KillerWabbit wrote:
The IC does not have the rule that gets the unit Relentless, therefore the IC does not get Relentless.

Missed that part. And i agree, the IC does not have the Rule than grants Relentless. The Devastator Squad does though. And what does their Rule do?

Grant Relentless to the Unit. To ALL the models in that Unit. It's unfortunate, but the Rules is granted to the Unit. Nothing says "The models of this formation only, get Relentless" Therefore the entire "Devastator Squad" gets Relentless.

The same applies to Assault Squads and charging.

blaktoof wrote:
No.

You do not understand.

3/4ths of the special rules for this formation are not special rules that benefit units. they are special rules that benefit the squads. Squad =/= unit. Using the name of the unit does not = a unit on the table top. Notice how the first special rule "shock deployment" specifies the rule affects the unit.

Can I get rules quote that using the name of a unit it is not referencing the unit? Or to put it your way, "Squad =/= Unit"?

Remember, in this case, not even the models are called Assault Marines or Assault Squad, just Marines, Marine Sgt, etc.

blaktoof wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
those models have permission to benefit from the rule not because it is a rule that affects the UNIT, but because it is a rule that affects the models from those squads.

When the rule says: "the Devastator Squads (...) have the Relentless special rule" you believe this refers to the models?
Not the "Devastator Squads", the Unit that goes by that name?

So, you think that the models in the "Devastator Squads" have the Relentless Special Rule on Turn 1, when they are still off the board?

I think the RaW disagrees.

Did the Devastator Squads (the Unit) have Relentless on Turn 1 when the game starts?

The answer to that question is "No":

The Devastator Squad does not have relentless.

It obtains that Rule later in the game: "the Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve"
When it gets Relentless, any joined IC also gain the Relentless Rule.

The exact same thing happens for the Assault Squads. They do not have permission to charge on Turn 1, or Turn 2 or Turn 3.
They obtain permission to Charge on Turn 4 when "they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve".
When the Squad obtains permission, who get the permission? All models in the Unit. This may happen to include an IC.

The models from the skyhammer annihilation force have the 4 special rules for that formation before deployment.

Some of the rules do not have an affect until certain actions are met, but the special rule that gives that affect (ie the 4 special rules they have for being organized into this formation) they have prior to any game turn, and deployment.

So the models in the dev squad have the special rule "first the fire then the blade" prior to turn 1, but it does not grant relentless until turn 1.

The special rule that gives them these abilities as called out by the RAW are given prior to deployment, not when the event that allows them to do something triggers. ie the models have first the fire then the blade, which is the special rule- which grants a special rule at a specific time for a specific time in this case, prior to turn 1. They do not gain their formation special rule 'first the fire then the blade' after deployment at some event happening, that is not how formation special rules work.

so the RAW does not disagree, your above statements are just not correct.

and again can you find anywhere in the latter 3 rules that states it affects the units? The first rule does, so yes an attached IC would benefit, as it is a rule that affects units.

Of course they have "first the fire then the blade" prior to turn 1.

But you miss the point.

Please answer the simple question:
They Deep Strike in Turn 4, when do they obtain the Relentless Special Rule?

 BlackTalos wrote:

KillerWabbit wrote:
The IC does not have the rule that gets the unit Relentless, therefore the IC does not get Relentless.

Missed that part. And i agree, the IC does not have the Rule than grants Relentless. The Devastator Squad does though. And what does their Rule do?

Grant Relentless to the Unit. To ALL the models in that Unit. It's unfortunate, but the Rules is granted to the Unit. Nothing says "The models of this formation only, get Relentless" Therefore the entire "Devastator Squad" gets Relentless.

The same applies to Assault Squads and charging.

please quote in the rule where it states it affects the unit?

an example from shock deployment, a rule from the same formation "all units in the sky hammer annihilation force may start the game in reserve, instead of using the normal reserve and deployment rules for these units you can.."

Why do you think the rules as written for one thing grant rules for an unit, but do not grant rules for an unit in the other three rules for the formation? Are all rules granted to an unit unless they specify otherwise? IS there blanket permission for anything to affect an unit without stating it affects the unit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
No.

You do not understand.

3/4ths of the special rules for this formation are not special rules that benefit units. they are special rules that benefit the squads. Squad =/= unit. Using the name of the unit does not = a unit on the table top. Notice how the first special rule "shock deployment" specifies the rule affects the unit.

Can I get rules quote that using the name of a unit it is not referencing the unit? Or to put it your way, "Squad =/= Unit"?

Remember, in this case, not even the models are called Assault Marines or Assault Squad, just Marines, Marine Sgt, etc.

its a permissive rule set, to state squad = unit or unit name on a datasheet= unit on table + anything joined, you have to show it. Not the otherway around. Its the same reason no one has to show rules permission for a player to have 1000 more points in their army because you did not wear red pants.

again

the unit name "assault squad" is the name of a datasheet that is purchased for a detachment/formation(or not if unbound) that contains models.

those models make up a unit on the table.

I can join a Skitarii IC, an INQ IC, and a Sob IC to that unit.

Those ICs are not models purchased from the datasheet unit name "assault squad".

the unit name of the datasheet and a unit on the table are two different things.

 Wilson wrote:

 Jambles wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
For me, It boils down to the wording " the assault squad may assault..." Not "the assault squad and any characters that have joined said squad may assault..."

People will spend their lives arguing on threads like this. Facts and opinons remain the same.
The rules are slightly unclear
Space marine players want to justify it.
Other players want to deny it.

This isnt going to change until theres an faq. so reciting the rules back and forth to one another isnt going to change much. Just play it how you want too with your mates. Lets face it, youre not gonna play 99% of the dudes on here!

You're completely missing the point of this entire section of the forum.

It's pointless in this case to say that it's pointless to discuss rules in here. This is a rules discussion forum. What exactly are you expecting to come of this statement? It's equally pointless to say "just play it how you want to!" Yeah, we all know we can do that - that's NOT the point of the discussion. What you said here was completely not constructive and entirely beside the point.

And, to refute your point, the rule doesn't need to specify "and any characters that are attached" - the core rules already cover this instance, where they declare that ICs that join a unit are now for all intents and purposes a part of that unit.

Not sure how my opinion is any less constructive than your response but okay Rambles

Just trying to save you from more wasted time and effort in the future.

 BlackTalos wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
those models have permission to benefit from the rule not because it is a rule that affects the UNIT, but because it is a rule that affects the models from those squads.

When the rule says: "the Devastator Squads (...) have the Relentless special rule" you believe this refers to the models?
Not the "Devastator Squads", the Unit that goes by that name?

So, you think that the models in the "Devastator Squads" have the Relentless Special Rule on Turn 1, when they are still off the board?

I think the RaW disagrees.

Did the Devastator Squads (the Unit) have Relentless on Turn 1 when the game starts?

The answer to that question is "No":

The Devastator Squad does not have relentless.

It obtains that Rule later in the game: "the Turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve"
When it gets Relentless, any joined IC also gain the Relentless Rule.

The exact same thing happens for the Assault Squads. They do not have permission to charge on Turn 1, or Turn 2 or Turn 3.
They obtain permission to Charge on Turn 4 when "they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve".
When the Squad obtains permission, who get the permission? All models in the Unit. This may happen to include an IC.

The models from the skyhammer annihilation force have the 4 special rules for that formation before deployment.

Some of the rules do not have an affect until certain actions are met, but the special rule that gives that affect (ie the 4 special rules they have for being organized into this formation) they have prior to any game turn, and deployment.

So the models in the dev squad have the special rule "first the fire then the blade" prior to turn 1, but it does not grant relentless until turn 1.

The special rule that gives them these abilities as called out by the RAW are given prior to deployment, not when the event that allows them to do something triggers. ie the models have first the fire then the blade, which is the special rule- which grants a special rule at a specific time for a specific time in this case, prior to turn 1. They do not gain their formation special rule 'first the fire then the blade' after deployment at some event happening, that is not how formation special rules work.

so the RAW does not disagree, your above statements are just not correct.

and again can you find anywhere in the latter 3 rules that states it affects the units? The first rule does, so yes an attached IC would benefit, as it is a rule that affects units.

Of course they have "first the fire then the blade" prior to turn 1.

But you miss the point.

Please answer the simple question:
They Deep Strike in Turn 4, when do they obtain the Relentless Special Rule?

The devastator squads from the sky hammer annihilation force have relentless on the turn they arrive from deepstrike. They gain it from the special rule 'first the fire then the blade' which they had prior to deployment, but any attached IC did not have as it was not part of the unit to gain the formation bonus prior to deployment. You miss the point, where is the permission for units? Does it say devestator squad units? I can't seem to see this unit word in the rule anywhere that gives it permission to extend to the unit that you+some others keep claiming is there. Is an IC from "captain" datasheet, a model purchased from the "devastator squad" datasheet? Does the rule in question specify it affects the unit? The RAW answer to both is no.

Does an IC count as a part of the unit for all rules purposes when it joins?

blaktoof wrote:

The devastator squads from the sky hammer annihilation force have relentless on the turn they arrive from deepstrike. You miss the point, where is the permission for units? Does it say devestator squad units? I can't seem to see this unit word in the rule anywhere that gives it permission to extend to the unit that you+some others keep claiming is there. Is an IC from "captain" datasheet, a model purchased from the "devastator squad" datasheet? Does the rule in question specify it affects the unit? The RAW answer to both is no.

Good, we have agree that Devastator Squads get relentless on the Turn they arrive.

Now, lets look at the RaW:
"the Devastator Squads (...) have the Relentless special rule"

Please tell me what the term "Devastator Squads" in the RaW defines:
A) Devastator Squad = The Unit called "Devastator Squad"
B) Devastator Squad = the 4 marines called "Devastator Marines"

Or, same question: What is a "Devastator Squad" and how is this defined in the Codex / Rulebook?

blaktoof wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
No.

You do not understand.

3/4ths of the special rules for this formation are not special rules that benefit units. they are special rules that benefit the squads. Squad =/= unit. Using the name of the unit does not = a unit on the table top. Notice how the first special rule "shock deployment" specifies the rule affects the unit.

Can I get rules quote that using the name of a unit it is not referencing the unit? Or to put it your way, "Squad =/= Unit"?

Remember, in this case, not even the models are called Assault Marines or Assault Squad, just Marines, Marine Sgt, etc.

its a permissive rule set, to state squad = unit or unit name on a datasheet= unit on table + anything joined, you have to show it. Not the otherway around. Its the same reason no one has to show rules permission for a player to have 1000 more points in their army because you did not wear red pants.

So, I'm asking where it states that referencing a unit name, as defined by the data sheet rules, is not referencing a unit.

You don't have permission to wave that off, or at least provided any rules permission to do so, so why are you?

blaktoof wrote:
its a permissive rule set, to state squad = unit or unit name on a datasheet= unit on table + anything joined, you have to show it. Not the otherway around. Its the same reason no one has to show rules permission for a player to have 1000 more points in their army because you did not wear red pants.

again

the unit name "assault squad" is the name of a datasheet that is purchased for a detachment/formation(or not if unbound) that contains models.

those models make up a unit on the table.

I can join a Skitarii IC, an INQ IC, and a Sob IC to that unit.

Those ICs are not models purchased from the datasheet unit name "assault squad".

the unit name of the datasheet and a unit on the table are two different things.

Ah, i see, we do indeed have an issue of definition of the Term: "Devastator Squad"

The term "Devastator Squad" can only be a reference to "A Unit of Devastator Marines". Because that is what the Formation refers to. Formation are composed of Units.

So when the Formation says:
- 1-3 Devastator Squads
This must mean Units, because Formations are composed of Units.

Devastator Squad = the Unit of that name.

so until you can post where it states it affects the unit, which is required in a permissive rules set...

or you can show..

that the IC counts as a model from the "unit name" on the data sheet..(which has a lot of RAW problems as has been previously pointed out in this thread)..

or you can show a RAW passage that a unit is the same as the unit name on a datasheet (good luck!)...

I can just keep copy pasting the RAW passages I have posted on this, to the HYWPI stances where you make a jump in logic for any of the three above statements without any Rules as written to support it.

so here

again

the unit name "assault squad" is the name of a datasheet that is purchased for a detachment/formation(or not if unbound) that contains models.

those models make up a unit on the table.

I can join a Skitarii IC, an INQ IC, and a Sob IC to that unit.

Those ICs are not models purchased from the datasheet unit name "assault squad".

the unit name of the datasheet and a unit on the table are two different things.

or better yet. Just answer why in rites of teleportation, and shock deployment do they specify UNIT, but in the other three rules you claim are 'unit rules' they never say the word 'unit' except when specifying the enemy unit that is the target of said special rules?

just answer that. Why do some sets of rules which benefits UNITS have rules as written that state they benefit units, and these rules which you claim benefit units, have no rules as written that state they benefit units?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
its a permissive rule set, to state squad = unit or unit name on a datasheet= unit on table + anything joined, you have to show it. Not the otherway around. Its the same reason no one has to show rules permission for a player to have 1000 more points in their army because you did not wear red pants.

again

the unit name "assault squad" is the name of a datasheet that is purchased for a detachment/formation(or not if unbound) that contains models.

those models make up a unit on the table.

I can join a Skitarii IC, an INQ IC, and a Sob IC to that unit.

Those ICs are not models purchased from the datasheet unit name "assault squad".

the unit name of the datasheet and a unit on the table are two different things.

Ah, i see, we do indeed have an issue of definition of the Term: "Devastator Squad"

The term "Devastator Squad" can only be a reference to "A Unit of Devastator Marines". Because that is what the Formation refers to. Formation are composed of Units.

So when the Formation says:
- 1-3 Devastator Squads
This must mean Units, because Formations are composed of Units.

Devastator Squad = the Unit of that name.

I see so formations are composed of units. So if it says squads, which are referencing the "unit name" from the formation therefore unit name = unit.[any quote on that?] So an IC joined to an unit is part of that units datasheet. Do you have any rules support for that?

That has interesting implications with the rules on models not belonging to more than one formation/detachment since it now counts as being bought from a datasheet other than its own like the rest of the models from that datasheets unit name (the unit name = units theory here) other than the IC datasheet, which is probably in two separate formations/detachments. Does the IC lose its formation benefits when it joins the unit because its now counting as being a model from that units datasheet to make unit name on the datasheet = unit on the table top? Or does it get to break the rules about being in more than one formation/detachment?

blaktoof wrote:
or better yet. Just answer why in rites of teleportation, and shock deployment do they specify UNIT, but in the other three rules you claim are 'unit rules' they never say the word 'unit' except when specifying the enemy unit that is the target of said special rules?

just answer that. Why do some sets of rules which benefits UNITS have rules as written that state they benefit units, and these rules which you claim benefit units, have no rules as written that state they benefit units?

Because Games Workshop. Each new Codex has the same rules written differently. GW tries to shorten Rules, write them "better", but it does not always work.

blaktoof wrote:
I see so formations are composed of units. So if it says squads, which are referencing the "unit name" from the formation therefore unit name = unit.[any quote on that?] So an IC joined to an unit is part of that units datasheet. Do you have any rules support for that?

That has interesting implications with the rules on models not belonging to more than one formation/detachment since it now counts as being bought from a datasheet other than its own like the rest of the models from that datasheets unit name (the unit name = units theory here) other than the IC datasheet, which is probably in two separate formations/detachments. Does the IC lose its formation benefits when it joins the unit because its now counting as being a model from that units datasheet to make unit name on the datasheet = unit on the table top? Or does it get to break the rules about being in more than one formation/detachment?

I never stated that the IC "joined the Datasheet". That does not mean anything.

Please just define, in the RaW, what "Devastator Squad" means.

We are during Turn 4 of a game. We no longer have Datasheets. We only have Units, composed of models, on the gaming table. Words like "Datasheets" or "Force Organisation" or "Points cost" do not exist and are not called upon during the Assault Phase of Turn 4.
If a rule, at that point in the game, says:
"All Devastator Squads on the board can re-roll their Snap Shots" or any Rule we could invent....

Define "Devastator Squad" in that Rule.

"or you can show a RAW passage that a unit is the same as the unit name on a datasheet (good luck!)... "

From the Army List Entry Data Sheet Description pate.

"3. Unit Name: Here you will find the name of the unit."

This is a rule. It names the unit something. In this case, it names it "Assault Squad".

The IC joins the unit and is considered a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

"Why do some sets of rules which benefits UNITS have rules as written that state they benefit units, and these rules which you claim benefit units, have no rules as written that state they benefit units? "

Because it's how English works.

In one rule they are referring to all the units and an effect.

The other rule, they are saying these units get this, and other units get something else. Just because they are referencing specific units does not all of a sudden make it that they are not referencing units.

 BlackTalos wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
or better yet. Just answer why in rites of teleportation, and shock deployment do they specify UNIT, but in the other three rules you claim are 'unit rules' they never say the word 'unit' except when specifying the enemy unit that is the target of said special rules?

just answer that. Why do some sets of rules which benefits UNITS have rules as written that state they benefit units, and these rules which you claim benefit units, have no rules as written that state they benefit units?

Because Games Workshop. Each new Codex has the same rules written differently. GW tries to shorten Rules, write them "better", but it does not always work.

blaktoof wrote:
I see so formations are composed of units. So if it says squads, which are referencing the "unit name" from the formation therefore unit name = unit.[any quote on that?] So an IC joined to an unit is part of that units datasheet. Do you have any rules support for that?

That has interesting implications with the rules on models not belonging to more than one formation/detachment since it now counts as being bought from a datasheet other than its own like the rest of the models from that datasheets unit name (the unit name = units theory here) other than the IC datasheet, which is probably in two separate formations/detachments. Does the IC lose its formation benefits when it joins the unit because its now counting as being a model from that units datasheet to make unit name on the datasheet = unit on the table top? Or does it get to break the rules about being in more than one formation/detachment?

I never stated that the IC "joined the Datasheet". That does not mean anything.

Please just define, in the RaW, what "Devastator Squad" means.

We are during Turn 4 of a game. We no longer have Datasheets. We only have Units, composed of models, on the gaming table. Words like "Datasheets" or "Force Organisation" or "Points cost" do not exist and are not called upon during the Assault Phase of Turn 4.
If a rule, at that point in the game, says:
"All Devastator Squads on the board can re-roll their Snap Shots" or any Rule we could invent....

Define "Devastator Squad" in that Rule.

to the first question, thats not a valid answer. One of the rules cited 'shock deployment' uses the wording for units benefitting. It is one of the rules from this very formation. The other three rules do not have a single rule as written stating they affect the unit.

to the second, a devestator squad is the name of a datasheet, it is models purchased from that datasheet. Those models when deployed by themself are an unit on the table. IF an IC is joined to that unit, the IC is part of the unit. However the IC is not a model purchased from the devastator squad. If a rule states it affects the devestator unitl, or the unit with this special rule. The IC is a model in the unit and would benefit. IF the rule states it affects the squad, does it affect the unit? Nowehere is there a rule as written that states squad= unit, or the name of a datasheet = an unit on the table top. Units on the tabletop are made up of models. Sometimes those models belong all to the same datasheet which may be from a specific formation. Sometimes the unit may have models from different datasheets, which were purchased from different formations.

ie a Tech Dominus from admech, is purchased from data sheet unit name: tech dominus
a SoB IC is purchased from data sheet unit name: whatever
a Iron Priest is purchased from datasheet unit name: iron priest
a Sang Priest: is purchased from datasheet unit name: sanguinary priest
they are joined to assault squad purchased from data sheet unit name: assault squad

all the ICs are joined to the assault squad at deployment.
They are all in a single unit.
They are not all purchased from the datasheet unit name: assault squad, and they are not by default of being joined to the unit part of that unit name which belongs to that specific datasheet, which is tied to a specific formation/detachment in a non unbound list.

in the BRB there are rules that affect models, and units.
Now this is a rule that does not specify it affects unit (a table top entity made up of models on the board)
it does specify it affects squads, the unit name of a specific datasheet in a specific formation.

The ICs are part of the unit, but they are not part of the models bought from the assault squad datasheet when joined. Therefore they are not models from the assault squad, despite being in a unit with the assault squad.

So again, 1 out of the 4 rules specifies it affects the unit(s), so joined ICs are part of the unit and benefit. The other three do not state anywhere they affect the unit.