Ok, sso we all know plot armor aside, necrons would curb stomp the imperium. So instead of beating an old horse, I'm going to beat a new one.
All the tomb worlds awaken, the silent king returns and units all the other necrons left, imokepht is now his right hand man.
Ghazghul finally units and rallies all DA orks in the galaxy,
In other words... It's show time.
Who will be the last ones standing?
Assume- fleet battles are numerous and huge in scale, land battles are even more numerous, reanimation protocal is set to send slain soldiers to back worlds not threatened by the waagh, (or at least only by small units of rogue ork bands)
Keep in mind both armies are = united and fully awoken is doomsday for galaxy, not just the orks.
Bit of a tricky one to answer. I said orks because of the fact that it's been said that if they unite they can take the galaxy. Plus, even with every tomb world awoken, the orks will still heavily outnumber them. My way of thinking is that for every necron 100 orks can go and try and kill it. My knowledge of the necrons' population isn't the greatest, so I don't know how accurate that is, but knowing orks it seems likely to me. One thing the necrons have on the orks is the gauss weaponry would more than likely stop spore reproduction from the dead, so they have that going for them.
The largest Ork force ever mustered on the Death World of Angelis was the mob put together to drive the Diggas from their homes under the pyramids.
It emptied Mektown of its inhabitants and nearly saw the extinction of Angelis' ork population as every single ork was cut down by a handful of tomb guardians. A whole planets worth of Orks, nearly wiped out by one inactive tomb.
The Necrons will nuke them from space. The Orks have numbers but no way to bring them all to bear. If it's true that the Necrons outnumber humanity (a possibility suggested by their codex), then the Orks could not win even if everything was fought on their terms.
Necrons are nauseatingly Mary Sue OP in the fluff. They don't really belong in the 40k universe, honestly. Anyway, they would easily eliminate the Orks, barring the return of both the old ones and the brain boys.
Any one who says necrons obviously loves their... Well... They don't have the d... Their equivilant. Orks would, without trying, win. Because they can't lose. You can't ever trueky kill them you CAN truly kill necrons. Orks keep coming back. Everyone one that does spawns 5 more. Necrons lose EVERY time.
On the ground, I think that the Orks would stand a chance of winning. But, the deciding factor here is that they would get annihilated in space battles. Ork spacecraft, even massive hulks are so inferior to Necron ships that 50-75% of Ork ground forces would get destroyed before even making it to the ground. In space all of the Orks ferocity and huge numbers of cannon fodder infantry means nothing. Even with way more ships, it doesn't mean much if those ships may as well be made of tissue paper when in battle.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Any one who says necrons obviously loves their... Well... They don't have the d... Their equivilant. Orks would, without trying, win. Because they can't lose. You can't ever trueky kill them you CAN truly kill necrons. Orks keep coming back. Everyone one that does spawns 5 more. Necrons lose EVERY time.
There is a finite number of Necrons in the galaxy. The number of Orks that will live, fight, and die is infinite. If one billions Orks die to kill a single Necron, the Orks have won, because their loses can be replaced, but a dead Necron is gone FOREVER.
If all Orks in the entire galaxy were to ever unite, even the Necrons wouldn't stand a chance. It would be the end of the galaxy. There would be a tide of Orks that is literally endless, more numerous than the Tyranids and eternally regrowing. Luckily, knowing the Orks, such a unification is less likely than the Emperor suddenly waking up and dancing the mazurka with Roboute Guilliman and a group of Great Unclean Ones.
TheCrazyCryptek wrote: On the ground, I think that the Orks would stand a chance of winning. But, the deciding factor here is that they would get annihilated in space battles. Ork spacecraft, even massive hulks are so inferior to Necron ships that 50-75% of Ork ground forces would get destroyed before even making it to the ground. In space all of the Orks ferocity and huge numbers of cannon fodder infantry means nothing. Even with way more ships, it doesn't mean much if those ships may as well be made of tissue paper when in battle.
Orks normally don't fight space battles. They go straight for a planet's surface, using the incredible resilience of their ships (often some kind of space hulk or asteroid) to withstand any enemy fire.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Any one who says necrons obviously loves their... Well... They don't have the d... Their equivilant. Orks would, without trying, win. Because they can't lose. You can't ever trueky kill them you CAN truly kill necrons. Orks keep coming back. Everyone one that does spawns 5 more. Necrons lose EVERY time.
Tell that to the boys on Angelis.
Sounds like one of those crappy 40k authors.. those, we serious 40kers don't consider cannon. Also, everyone knows necrons are a bit... Weak? I mean.. you guys die to imperial guard mass fire... Mass fire... Think on that. Us orks. We win if we win and win if we lose. You..just lose
This is a cool thought experiment, but one that has so many things that obstruct real discussion. It will come down to personal bias.
I don't necessarily agree that the Necrons would curb stomp the Imperium. There are numerous issues with that assertion, first and foremost the fact that the Imperium is itself a brutally powerful force capable of defeating any and all threats.They are currently limited by the fact that they are literally fight all threats at once!
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Any one who says necrons obviously loves their... Well... They don't have the d... Their equivilant. Orks would, without trying, win. Because they can't lose. You can't ever trueky kill them you CAN truly kill necrons. Orks keep coming back. Everyone one that does spawns 5 more. Necrons lose EVERY time.
Tell that to the boys on Angelis.
Sounds like one of those crappy 40k authors.. those, we serious 40kers don't consider cannon. Also, everyone knows necrons are a bit... Weak? I mean.. you guys die to imperial guard mass fire... Mass fire... Think on that. Us orks. We win if we win and win if we lose. You..just lose
Necrons don't die to lasgun fire. They can only be damaged by shooting them through the eyes (or painfully melted down by multiple lasguns on full auto that wastes ammunition), and then they just phase out and turn back the next day after repairs. You need meltaguns or plasma guns to remove Necrons for good, and not the puny Tau kind, the "ohgodmybodyismelting" Imperial variety that doesn't over penetrate.
The Necron dynasties are as likely to unite as the Orks are likely to unite. If both did unite their numbers I'd give the win to Orks. As someone mentioned, if 1 billion Orks died for each one Necron, the Orks will win. The way they multiply is nutz and pretty cool. I'm fairly certain that if they united they'd easily be the anvil that tanks the incoming Tyranid main host while the other races are the hammer that hit the hives on the flanks. For some reason I feel the incoming Tyranids is why Gork and Mork want Ghazzy to build up enough Waaagh! for them to rip out of the warp and into realspace. I daresay the real upcoming question might be 'who would win, Tyranids full arrival or Orks united under Gork and Mork in realspace?'. I wonder if the Necrons are even 'fun' for the Orks to smash. Do Necrons feel pain?
Roks- fewnof them would ever reach planets, there is book evidence (from imperial viewpoint) where a small necron fleet not only shot dead stars at speeds of just under light speed, but withstood the entire imperial volley before hand and took almost 0 damage, then engaging with gauss and other similar weaponry, again, almost all damage they received was already repairing itself
They move at speeds just under light speed in their ships, and can start, or stop on a dime, or even full reverse in a matter of fractions of seconds
The necron lords defend themselves by wearing (literally here) patched TIME shaped into cloaks that can render them in their own pocket universe.
For each billion orks that die, one necron is damaged and phased out for repairs,
Necron weapons don't allow for normal ork reproduction, they literally FLAY the atoms from beings, leaving none left to release spores
Flayed ones would literally rip.apart entire ork warbands alone,
Necron tech is so advanced it looks more like magic than the space magic of psykers does.
The imperium would get curb stomped in a full all resources in 1v1 with minimal losses to necrons, especially considering much of the fluff leads ones to believe there are still more necrons than humans at this point.
Deathmarks would pop out of some.extra dimension in real space, pop off ork leaders, then pop back in, with only the highest and toughest (and smartest) surviving these strikes.
im going to give it to the orks simply because the fluff for the orks is pretty much confirmed for the most part at this point. Where as the Necrons fluff is so full of holes right now its hard to tell what GW considers fact from fiction.
If were going to go on about how a handful of necrons wipe out ork warbands then what about Commissar Cain killing necrons right and left with his bolt pistol and chain sword? not to mention him taking on two necron worlds and winning both times....and thats guardsmen.
The Orks where basically made to fight the Necrons in the War in Heaven as a race that is ultimately endless and has the unwavering will to keep fighting. Orks will die by the bucketload (a billion to one? What kind of mary sue fluff inspired ratio is that?) but Orks reproduce with spores from all corners of the universe (they drop spores everywhere they go so they don't even need to die to reproduce) to create an endless flood of green. Ork's collective psychic reality would bend the universe to better level the playing field. Get every Ork in a giant collective WAAAGH!!! the universe is going to undergo some major physics defying alterations.
In the fluff the ultimate limitation of Orks is you can't really get all of them fighting against the same enemy. The vast majority of things that kill Orks is other Orks who are fighting against each other for reasons (no other enemies around, being bored, some "politekul" disagreements, loot disputes, or being really bored.). If you got all the Orks unified on a galactic WAAAGH then its game over for basically everything except maybe the nids.
There was that Necron general who was the best strategist and won every single battle with the Eldar. Then the Orkz happened and completely annihilated his forces because... Orkz does not have strategy and tactics...
Silverthorne wrote: Necrons are nauseatingly Mary Sue OP in the fluff. They don't really belong in the 40k universe, honestly.
Yup. 'Nids too, to a lesser degree. "Doomed doomed doomed doomed doomed. Go home now" -teacher from Invader Zim pilot
It would depend on how thorough the Necrons were. Orks seem more like a vermin - if you don't eradicate them completely, they will be back to full strength soon enough. In a fair fight though, Necrons all the way.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: I did forget that the orks were MADE to beat the necrons... Hence again why they'd win. Fluff reasons.
But... They didn't beat the necrons... Even back then when the old gods were alive.. And the eldar were fighting... Necrons kicked their keesters across the galaxy.
Which made them more in number and stronger. The necrons could never, ever truly beat orks... Orks could eventually truly wipe out necrons. That's fact, Jack. Please stop with the necron obsession. It's a bit... Weird
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Which made them more in number and stronger. The necrons could never, ever truly beat orks... Orks could eventually truly wipe out necrons. That's fact, Jack. Please stop with the necron obsession. It's a bit... Weird
There's no facts on the subject. When Necrons and Orks fight, Orks have a habit of rolling over and dying. They can't stand up to things like World Engines, Cairn Class Tombships, Necron Lords, or worst of all, the C'tan.
Break the Necrons and you simply release the C'tan once more upon the materium.
Orks can handle that too. Please get the whatever metal their made out of our of your mouth. As mentioned above. Facts, fluff, and tabletop, all point to orks.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Orks can handle that too. Please get the whatever metal their made out of our of your mouth. As mentioned above. Facts, fluff, and tabletop, all point to orks.
Lolwut?
No they don't. Again, Orks lose when they go up against Necrons. And as C'tan are concerned, fully formed C'tan casually blow up entire solar systems for lulz. The Orks already can't match the firepower of normal Necrons (with Cairn Tombships having the ability to instantly cripple the enemy while reforming from ludicrous amounts of damage. A small group of Necorn ships can gut an entire Imperial fleet with few losses), let alone the C'tan.
Let me put this into perspective for you.
The Orks don't have the numbers to fight all of the Necrons and their assets. They're that powerful- the only reason why they're as weak as they are now is due to the Silent King surrendering his command and the Necrons shattering as a collective into individual bickering dynasties. But these forces united? Multiple World Engines backed up with fleets of ships shooting neutron stars are you at a fraction of C.
Smh, apparently there is no talking sense into someone who loves.. the blandness... The.. polar view.. straight road.. nothing special necrons.
Let me say this
Games workshop has never said United, necrons would take over the universe. That has been said of the orks. Have a nice day. I win, cause us know... Orks always win.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Smh, apparently there is no talking sense into someone who loves.. the blandness... The.. polar view.. straight road.. nothing special necrons.
Let me say this
Games workshop has never said United, necrons would take over the universe. That has been said of the orks. Have a nice day. I win, cause us know... Orks always win.
Utterly meaningless when demonstrated feats for Orks aren't even in the same department as Necron weaponry. Ork teknology, while logistically impressive, fails hold a candle to the abilities of the Necron Civilization (or their rivals, the Eldar Empire for that matter). But of course, you do have passages of Orks using neutron star matter for projectiles, time travel, something comparable to the Celestial Orrery, C'tan (even Sharded), or World Engines?
Furyou Miko wrote: The largest Ork force ever mustered on the Death World of Angelis was the mob put together to drive the Diggas from their homes under the pyramids.
It emptied Mektown of its inhabitants and nearly saw the extinction of Angelis' ork population as every single ork was cut down by a handful of tomb guardians. A whole planets worth of Orks, nearly wiped out by one inactive tomb.
I'll let you reflect on that for a moment.
Mektown was the only ork settlement on Angelis. It's a bit of a stretch, to say the least, to call that "a planet's worth" of orks. We're also talking about a marooned ork population, generally equipped with very low-tech gear and no larger war engines. The largest ork force mustered on Angelis is about as impressive as the toughest kid in 2nd grade.
Pain4Pleasure wrote:Sounds like one of those crappy 40k authors.. those, we serious 40kers don't consider cannon. Also, everyone knows necrons are a bit... Weak? I mean.. you guys die to imperial guard mass fire... Mass fire... Think on that. Us orks. We win if we win and win if we lose. You..just lose
What, you mean... Andy Chambers, Gavin Thorpe and Rick Priestley? Those guys no serious 40kers considers canon?
Besides, Orks... don't win if they lose. They just don't philosophically understand the concept of defeat. I can't comprehend the philosophical state of nonexistence. Doesn't mean it can't happen.
raiden wrote:I'm going to throw my own voice out here.
Roks- fewnof them would ever reach planets, there is book evidence (from imperial viewpoint) where a small necron fleet not only shot dead stars at speeds of just under light speed, but withstood the entire imperial volley before hand and took almost 0 damage, then engaging with gauss and other similar weaponry, again, almost all damage they received was already repairing itself
They move at speeds just under light speed in their ships, and can start, or stop on a dime, or even full reverse in a matter of fractions of seconds
Actually, the Inertialess Drive is more than capable of FTL, lol. Its how the Necrons get around the galaxy (other than during that strange blip that was the Wardex). At Orpheus, when they appeared out of nowhere in close orbit to the planet? That wasn't them decloaking, that was them dropping out of FTL. They then performed several Picard Manoeuvres in the space battle that followed, which also requires insanely precise FTL and better acceleration.
tgjensen wrote:Mektown was the only ork settlement on Angelis. It's a bit of a stretch, to say the least, to call that "a planet's worth" of orks. We're also talking about a marooned ork population, generally equipped with very low-tech gear and no larger war engines. The largest ork force mustered on Angelis is about as impressive as the toughest kid in 2nd grade.
In terms of Necron Tombs, it was also the equivalent of the biggest kid in 2nd grade rolling over in his sleep. The scale of 40k was smaller then Still the best counter-argument in this thread so far though.
A barely-awoken Necron Tomb still has access to all the Necron tech because that's where they kept it - with them, in their tombs. Plus it was their home turf. The situation doesn't really compare. We're one step away from Wildboyz here.
Also, and this is off topic but a pet grievance of mine; while the scale of Warhammer might have been smaller back then, the scale of the 40k universe was arguably larger because Epic was still alive and well. If anything, with the demise of Specialist Games, the 40k universe has shrunken to the point where an unrealistic degree of importance is placed on small-scale wargear and individuals. The opening text in the Epic: Armageddon rulebook is a quote by Commisar Yarrick:
"It is the purest folly to believe that an individual can save Armageddon. Wars are not won by heroes, they are won by firepower and force, and the application of strategy and tactics."
Nowadays wars mostly seem to be won by Marneus Calgar beating up the Swarmlord.
If Necrons don't reproduce, and only repair, entropy will eventually lead to their defeat, they can't possibly win in these circumstances. like the Eldar, they are truly a dying race, unable to replace their losses effectively. They might be able to chuck Neutron stars about, but do they have enough to take on the whole Universe?
According to fluff, Orks exist outside of the Milky Way, in all directions. I don't know if Necrons do.
This means that the sheer amount of Orks would boggle the mind (if they actually existed). Even if the Necrons went on a wild rampage slaughtering orks by the billion, they would possibly still have an entire universe of Orks to deal with, and unless they eradicated every Ork utterly, then they would start popping back up again on the planets they were on before. Even one Spore would be enough, as given time, that lone Ork would shed more spores over it's lifetime, until it died.
The Necrons might use Gauss technology, but they don't kill every Ork that way. Plus the Orks presumably moved about in the local area shedding spores as they went, or were they marching to battle. Basically they would have to do as the Tyranids do and take the whole planet down to it's BedRock.
Infact maybe only the Tyranids are the other contenders for Galaxy wide domination, the Necrons are in the long game, out of it really. The only way they could "Win" is to stay hidden, and hope to outlive the Orks by waiting for the heat death of the universe.
The dynasties uniting is as likely as Orks uniting so if the hypothetical scenario of Necrons uniting is used then the unification of the Orks is also useable. I like the point made that the fluff is very clear that should the Orks unite they would sweep the entire galaxy. Necrons don't have that specified and they were united once, look where that got them. It wasn't the Old Ones that sent the Necron into hiding it was warp spawned machinations. The Warp still continues and races that existed in those times (like the Orks) still exist today and in the case of the Orks thrived to the point of being the most succesful and prolific of the races.
Sorry to the one who thought the whole billion to one ratio was mary sue fluff. I wasn't making that point to suggest that a single Necron is capable of such a feat but rather to point out the sheer amount of attrition the Orks can laugh off. I didn't do the number justice. Hundreds of billions of Orks can be annihalated in a single swipe and they can still laugh it off.
Wiping out the Orks is a feat on par to wiping out all the stars in the galaxy. I believe the Necrons with the help of C'tan tried snuffing out all the stars once, even with the star killing power I guess it didn't pan out. Too many stars? Too time consuming? Something will counter? Exagerated myths? Stars still exist in the Milky Way.
Bobthehero wrote: Necrons, helps that their infantry weapon counters the ork advantage handily.
I never knew the Necrons were a rapid firing army mowing hordes under a hail of torrential gunfire. Cuz that's what it is needed to counter the first Ork advantage of sheer numbers running over their own dead bodies let alone the second advantage of spores.
Even then. This prolific race is constantly found everywhere even asteroids and dead planets or popping out of the warp from some journey that began thousands of yrs ago. Spores find their way back on planets that have been declared Exterminatus in the past because of an asteroid hitting or a pile of space hulk junk pops out of the warp. Constantly throughout history the Orks keep reappearing behind the army back on the planets thought to be extinct before. They are just as old as the Eldar, not waning like the Eldar and didn't go into slumber like the Necron. Their spores are everywhere waiting for the environment conditions to sprout again. Their seemingly endless nature isn't an exageration, it's built in their genetic design.
Their guns disintegrate their targets, spores included, and the whole spore thing in itself is increfdibly overrated, if the Imperium of all faction can remove orks permanently from their own planets, then so can the Necrons.
But the Imperium can't. That's the point. They reappear back even on planets made Exterminatus. Eldar in their heyday had far more then what Imperium can do, if the Imperium can drop their Xenophobia long enough perhaps they canask the Eldar why they too haven't been able to stop the Orks continued growing control of the galaxy.
They simply just so prevalent across the whole galaxy that they are coming right back in behind IG as they move on to where they are called next. All the asteroids, all the systems, all the hulks, all the ones still stuck in travel in the warp waiting to pop out of their next random location, everything that has or had orks on it, all of it needs to be done almost all at once to get rid of the Orks. Otherwise they keep reappearing with their numbers back intact and then some.
Bobthehero wrote: and the whole spore thing in itself is increfdibly overrated
Well I guess the number of sleeping tomb worlds is overated as well as the number of atoms getting wiped by their gauss guns. Or we have what the fluff gives us.
Bobthehero wrote: Their guns disintegrate their targets, spores included, and the whole spore thing in itself is increfdibly overrated, if the Imperium of all faction can remove orks permanently from their own planets, then so can the Necrons.
Only at that point. What about the spores that the Ork has been happily shedding whilst waltzing about the place prior to his death? That, and the hundreds/ thousands/ millions of his mates who are also running about making a mess of the place and shedding spores all over the shop.
Orks shed spores whilst they are alive too, not just at the point of death. Basically, in this scenario, it wouldn't matter how powerful the Necrons are, they would simply run out of ammo/ power before the orks ran out of bodies. They can chuck as many Neutron stars about as they like, but whilst they're mucking about thowing them in one direction, a billion billion orks are sneaking up on them from every other direction. How many Neutron stars have they got? Are they twin linked?
Ah, but the Necrons have a perfect weapon for hunting down and destroying Ork Spores that have taken root - they can literally blanket the planet with Scarab swarms and eliminate every single one. Much more efficient than the Imperial method, which basically involves roving teams of soldiers with flamethrowers.
Necrons walk it.
The Orks weren't enough to stop them during the War in Heaven, and Necrons have some truly fearsome fire power even in the present.
Just look at the weapon they unleash in Shield of Baal, able to throw back Leviathan with a single volley.
ProwlerPC wrote: For some reason I feel the incoming Tyranids is why Gork and Mork want Ghazzy to build up enough Waaagh!
Eldar (at height)
Old ones
Orkz (at height, with brain boyz)
Necrons kicked the keesters of all three factions across the galaxy
IIRC BROKE into the webbay
Then, managed to TRICK the Ctan into helping them ERASE the old ones from existence, before SHATTERING the Ctan themselves.
Necrons then went on kicking the keesters of orkz and eldar until they said.
"Screw this, we can sleep/wait for millions of years, we don't have to fight you."
And slept. Sure it didn't go as planned, but every necron tomb world waking up, and every dynasty uniting under the silent king who has been alive since the war in heaven with quite possibly every necron tomb world having the ability to become a world engine.
On top of the ridiculous space tech they have....
Gauss weapons literally de atomize targets,
Orks create the most spores on death, the ones that fall off during moving/etc are much less.
I tend to go with the entropy theory of Necron defeat. Because 'Crons don't create new 'Crons easily, if at all, every lost Cron conciousness is literally irreplaceable. Meanwhile every Ork on every planet is happily shedding spores, creating more Orks, while the Necron replacement rate is essentially zero.
Over time the trillions upon trillions of Orks can overwhelm awakened Tomb Worlds one at a time. The Crons will definitely make the Orks pay ten, twenty, thirty times Cron losses for each planet, but a loss is still a loss.
Orks will Waaagh - concentrate wherever da best fightin iz - so they'll tend to concentrate without the need to issue orders or coordinate. Granted they'll get suckered into many an ambush and trap that way, but the losses are meh to them.
By the way, Gauss weaponry (and Tesla, and everything else) are not Star Trek phasers that totally annihilate an Ork when they hit him in the pinkie. If that was true every Cron weapon would be Instant Death. They're not; a multi wound Ork Nob can take a wound from a Cron weapon and keep fighting. It's quite possible that an Ork can be slain by Crons and still have the death-surge of spore shedding.
Of course, Crons are more than capable of purging life down to the cellular level on a world they control. That'd include any lingering Ork spores. But apparently Crons seldom do that. If they did every Tomb World would be utterly devoid of life. You wouldn't have Tomb Worlds popping up under Kaurava III, for example, which is a well established trope in Necron lore.
I have to agree that using Angelis (Gorkamorka) as an example of Necron superiority is a bit of a stretch, though it's also instructive. The Crons did not wipe out all the Orks who entered their tomb complex - there were a few survivors, and not all the Orks on Angelis went inside to begin with. Think city population, not planetary, though Mektown was far and away the largest Ork settlement.
Interestingly, the Crons didn't come out of the complex to finish the job either. Also interestingly, the Diggas (degenerate humans, Mechanicum expedition as I recall) could supposedly control the 'Crons' to a limited extent. Which begs the question of whether they were Crons at all. Between Diggas control and limited response to invasion they could easily have been Men of Iron or some other human construct.
I agree that Crons should win man for man. But even in 40K at equal points playing Crons against Orks is not auto-win. Add to that the problem that Orks never show up in 'equal numbers'. Add to that the fact that unlike the Imperium logistics never seem to be an issue. I think the Necrons are in trouble in the OPs scenario.
By the way, it's not that Orks don't have tactics that causes opponents trouble. They do. Some Warbosses, like Ghazzy, Nazdreg, even Kaptin Badruuk and Blood Axes in general are noted as being particulalry cunning. Look at Snikrot, who knows how to put his Redskull Kommandos exactly where they're needed on an enemy flank or in their rear.
The problem for Ork opponents is that, like their gear, Ork Tactics are highly kustomized and individualized. What other races write off as luck or low cunning (to salve their egos when they lose) is actually a case of Orks having no doctrine.
Look at the War of the Dakka, where Grog Ironteef outmaneuvered, trapped, outshot and annihilated Tau forces on Vor'sanar on their way to ransacking the entire sector. Farsight certainly takes Orks seriously.
More on point, Imotehk the Stormlord lost his 4+ to steal initiative against Orks. One would think if Orks were truly mindless tactically speaking it would be easier, not harder, to steal a march on them.
So I'd submit that for strategic reasons like reproduction, industry, logistics and the concentrating effects of Waaagh the Orks are going to be a tough customer for the Crons to beat, much in the same way the Crons would be seriously tested by the Tyranids. Tactically it would be foolish to sell Orks short - they are spontaneous, unpredictable, and not nearly as fixated on frontal Ork wave assaults as many people seem to think.
I wouldn't go so far as to say Orks are an auto win against Crons. It'd be a horrific bloody struggle, and the Crons may well be clever enough to find a way to win. If the Crons started losing too badly they might even opt to go back into hibernation. But I will say that strategically I'd give the edge to the Orks.
I know, TL, DR. But that'd be the non-reader's problem, and proof of both ignorance and lack of attention span!
I'd still say necrons, they can travel at FTL speeds at the press of a button. And they arent afraid of nuetron staring a planet to kill all the orks on it if they were going to lose otherwise. Rokz would be intercepted and destroyed almost 80% of the time.
After reflection, I put my money on the necrons.
The necrons is the only faction, with maybe the Tyranids, wich,, in the fluff, almost never loose.
I mean: every time the Imperium fight them, wether it win with huges casualities ((world engine, for exemple) or it loose: (Fall of Orpheus, etc...).
Imperium vs orks, or Chaos or whatever, shows some defeat for the Imperium, but a lot of win, including easy wins (even the Ultramarines struggles with the necrons^^).
And the Necrons are just awakening.
There are A LOT of necrons (they are always described being legions and legions).
Of course, the number of Orks is immeasurably superior.
Necrons aren't easily destroyed, they teleport themselves when they are hurted.
Strategically, Necrons are better in space and really quicker (they don't rely on warp for space travel, and have always been described as being exceptionnally fast).
They could regroup/attack/reinforce/do redeployments before the Orks.
Maybe none would be able to erase the other, but I do think Necrons have the edge.
I think we shouldn't bring TT cases to this discussions, as TT and fluff are two very differentes things.
Just two question: can they still produce canoptek things ? They aren't crons, just robots IIRC, so, why not ?
I never heard about orks outside the Milky Way, just a probe sent from Terra during Age of Strife, which record only orks signals everywhere it goes, showing Orks are everywhere in this galaxy.
Eldar (at height)
Old ones
Orkz (at height, with brain boyz)
Necrons kicked the keesters of all three factions across the galaxy
IIRC BROKE into the webbay
Then, managed to TRICK the Ctan into helping them ERASE the old ones from existence, before SHATTERING the Ctan themselves.
Necrons then went on kicking the keesters of orkz and eldar until they said.
"Screw this, we can sleep/wait for millions of years, we don't have to fight you."
And slept. Sure it didn't go as planned, but every necron tomb world waking up, and every dynasty uniting under the silent king who has been alive since the war in heaven with quite possibly every necron tomb world having the ability to become a world engine.
On top of the ridiculous space tech they have....
Gauss weapons literally de atomize targets,
Orks create the most spores on death, the ones that fall off during moving/etc are much less.
You got that wrong, chap. The Necrons turned to the C'tan because the Old Ones kicked the gak out of them. They turned to the C'tan to beat the Old Ones, got tricked, and now they're robots. As robots, they beat the Old Ones, but then got bent over and raped by the Eldar. That's why the Necrons pulled a Brave Sir Robin and went to sleep for 60 million years- because the Eldar beat the gak out of them, C'tan or no C'tan.
Eldar (at height)
Old ones
Orkz (at height, with brain boyz)
Necrons kicked the keesters of all three factions across the galaxy
IIRC BROKE into the webbay
Then, managed to TRICK the Ctan into helping them ERASE the old ones from existence, before SHATTERING the Ctan themselves.
Necrons then went on kicking the keesters of orkz and eldar until they said.
"Screw this, we can sleep/wait for millions of years, we don't have to fight you."
And slept. Sure it didn't go as planned, but every necron tomb world waking up, and every dynasty uniting under the silent king who has been alive since the war in heaven with quite possibly every necron tomb world having the ability to become a world engine.
On top of the ridiculous space tech they have....
Gauss weapons literally de atomize targets,
Orks create the most spores on death, the ones that fall off during moving/etc are much less.
You got that wrong, chap. The Necrons turned to the C'tan because the Old Ones kicked the gak out of them. They turned to the C'tan to beat the Old Ones, got tricked, and now they're robots. As robots, they beat the Old Ones, but then got bent over and raped by the Eldar. That's why the Necrons pulled a Brave Sir Robin and went to sleep for 60 million years- because the Eldar beat the gak out of them, C'tan or no C'tan.
Beat me to it. The Necrons got the ever living gak kicked out of them by the Old Ones. They had their back effectively broken and the only reason they continued to exist was because the Old Ones were content to merely fight off the offensive that the Necrons mounted.. basically crippling them in the process.
Then the C'tan came in, and did the heavy lifting. In fact, the only reason that the Necrons were able to shatter and imprison their star-gods was because the C'tan expended the vast majority of their power in defeating the Old Ones & co.. And, well, had been busy eating eachother.
After defeating and imprisoning the C'tan the Eldar started to bend the 'Crons over just like the Old Ones did in yester-year, and so they went and hid in their tombs for millions of years in the hopes of merely out-lasting their foes.
Whilst the Necrons are quite powerful and have technology which is essentially magic, they're not the literal gods people make them out to be. They were little more than annoying gnats to the Old Ones, and even the Eldar Empire pretty-well curb stomped them once they no longer had literal gods fighting for them.
Ashiraya wrote: EmpNortonII, have you ever heard of an 'Enslaver'?
Have you ever read the Necron codex? If the Necrons were half as powerful as their supporters in this thread think they are, the galaxy would be full of nothing but Necrons. 'Crons would single-handedly stomp every faction in the game, simultaneously.
Ashiraya wrote: EmpNortonII, have you ever heard of an 'Enslaver'?
Have you ever read the Necron codex? If the Necrons were half as powerful as their supporters in this thread think they are, the galaxy would be full of nothing but Necrons. 'Crons would single-handedly stomp every faction in the game, simultaneously.
Not even slightly. You're just underestimating the Old Ones.
However, the Orks do not have the Old Ones in their side in this conflict, so they are toast.
The Necron codex speaks of the Old Ones' power, not that of the Orks or Eldar. It explains how the Old Ones were defeated by being caught between Enslavers-and-friends, Necrons, and C'tan.
Without the Old Ones' mastery of the Warp, the Orks won't stand a chance against the Necrons.
Necrons are, however, one of the three endgame players who stand a chance of final victory in 40k, alongside Chaos and Tyranids.
Orks' one advantage is numbers (and even that is limited, if Necrons are indeed more numerous than humanity; a possibility that has been suggested). However, they can't bring these numbers to bear against the Necrons effectively, and the Necrons win in every other field.
Indeed, the Necrons could arguably defeat the Orks by solely using one device - the Celestial Orrery.
Indeed, the Necrons could arguably defeat the Orks by solely using one device - the Celestial Orrery.
And subsequently have nothing to rule over, because they'd have to snuff every sun / destroy every planet in the Milkway (and beyond) to eradicate the Orks.
Indeed, the Necrons could arguably defeat the Orks by solely using one device - the Celestial Orrery.
And subsequently have nothing to rule over, because they'd have to snuff every sun / destroy every planet in the Milkway (and beyond) to eradicate the Orks.
Ok, they can live in cold, frozen planets just fine...
Indeed, the Necrons could arguably defeat the Orks by solely using one device - the Celestial Orrery.
And subsequently have nothing to rule over, because they'd have to snuff every sun / destroy every planet in the Milkway (and beyond) to eradicate the Orks.
Furyou Miko wrote: The largest Ork force ever mustered on the Death World of Angelis was the mob put together to drive the Diggas from their homes under the pyramids.
It emptied Mektown of its inhabitants and nearly saw the extinction of Angelis' ork population as every single ork was cut down by a handful of tomb guardians. A whole planets worth of Orks, nearly wiped out by one inactive tomb.
I'll let you reflect on that for a moment.
Mektown was the only ork settlement on Angelis. It's a bit of a stretch, to say the least, to call that "a planet's worth" of orks. We're also talking about a marooned ork population, generally equipped with very low-tech gear and no larger war engines. The largest ork force mustered on Angelis is about as impressive as the toughest kid in 2nd grade.
Thank you for pointing this out! Not only was Mektown a single settlement, it was a single settlement which had not constructed a vehicle much bigger than a trukk, had not developed Kans or Dreads (much less Stompas), and had not yet evidenced well-documented ork technology like Traktor Kannons, Tellyportas, etc. This isn't ork warfare at its best, in any sense of the word. While numerically superior, the Orks were invading an entrenched foe with far superior technology.
I'm not arguing that the Orks would definitely win. However, you're making an assumption that heavily favors the Necrons .
Assuming that ALL the Tomb Worlds can awaken is optimistic, to put it mildly. There may be Tomb Worlds which have been destroyed by warp rifts, swallowed by black holes, or consumed in stellar conflagrations. While Necrons do play for the long game, the fact that some Tomb Worlds have only awoken partially, or have awoken with damaged and incomplete memories, or personality damage, indicates that the possibility of a 'full awakening' is not extremely high. Not all of the Tomb Worlds have awoke NOW, and we already know of many that are damaged in some manner.
Then, on top of that, there's no mention whatsoever of the vast psychic potential of a real "Great Waaaagh!". It's not merely that Ghaz rallies all the orks in the galaxy (an unlikely feat, but no more unlikely than all the Dynasties aligning), but, if he succeeded in doing so, the Waagh energy that now attracts and invigorates the orks in limited sectors of the galaxy, such as near Armageddon, would be kindled in every single ork across the entire galaxy, all directed under one will, and all directed against a single foe.
We simply have no idea what the consequences of that might be. Orks have remained fractious and undirected for millennia. We do know that, unlike humans, they ALL seem to have psychic latency, and unlike the Eldar (who are also psychically enabled, though much more than orks), they have colossal numbers behind them. To think that the Waaagh that ensues from a few million orks focused on a planet is simply a difference in scale from the Waaagh that emerges from trillions of orks all united across the entire galaxy seems unimaginative. If interplanetary Waaaghs spawn things like Stompas and Kill Kroozers in the ork psyche, I would think that entirely more apocalyptic creations might be spawned by a waaagh that united the galaxy. You might see Traktor kannons that pulled planets out of orbit, or tellyportas that warped a planet into a nearby star. You might see shokk attack cannons that tore continent-sized holes into the warp. It's all speculation, but, as an orky fanatic, I'd like to think that the greenskins would show the tinheads some new tricks.
Necrons complete their Pylon Network. Orks lose all warp related capabilities as the Warp is completely severed from the material realm. At that point, Necrons are probably playing the biggest game of shooting fish in a barrel.
Then again, Necrons could give a present of doomsday arks to all the minor Ork warhosts within that giant Waaaagh! and then wait for curiosity to kick in. Several m/billion containment breaches later, the Orks successfully vaporize themselves out of existence. As ridiculous as this sounds, there is precedence for it in the Wardcron codex and nothing has been written since to retcon it.
The Necrons take a page from Leviathan's playbook and initially focus their might on just killing whichever ork warlord is leading this massive waaagh! Then proceed to eliminate each individual lesser warhost one by one as all the lesser ork warlords fight over who gets to lead the Waaagh! now or sit back awhile as all the aforementioned warlords proceed to butt heads over who should lead the Waaagh! now. In the meantime, the crypteks are tasked with developing a successful countermeasure against the galaxies large green rat infestation.
Necrons use the Celestial Orrey, then wait several billion years for the galaxy to reform from the collection of nebulas it has become. Time is nothing to one who is immortal and doesn't need to worry about circadian rhythms to disturb their slumber. Maybe this time sleep in their ships outside the galactic rim to avoid further natural disasters. Or maybe just skip on over to another galaxy.
In all seriousness, If the Necrons are able to complete their pylon project, all but Dark Eldar, Tyranids and Eldar (to a lesser extent than the former two) would be royally screwed as there goes the Imperium's, Tau's, and Ork's mode of FTL travel severely limiting their mobility (not to mention trapping every craft in the Warp that was present in the Warp at the time of the Pylons activating alongside a very pissed Chaos pantheon). Also, all psykers would be rendered incompetent - no Warp access = no warp spawned magic - as would all psychic based weapons. Chaos would be the biggest loser of course.
And then there's the question of what happens to all those souls. Are they ripped away from their respective hosts forever stuck in the warp, and if so, what happens to all those suddenly without souls? Would they suddenly turn into emotionless pariahs? Or would there be an unforeseen consequence that possibly kills most if not all life in the galaxy - potentially the universe - that wasn't already either a pariah or had no connection with the warp in the first place. Perhaps the souls stay with their hosts, but now - outside of soulstones and the like - have no place to go once the host dies.
Ashiraya wrote: EmpNortonII, have you ever heard of an 'Enslaver'?
Have you ever read the Necron codex? If the Necrons were half as powerful as their supporters in this thread think they are, the galaxy would be full of nothing but Necrons. 'Crons would single-handedly stomp every faction in the game, simultaneously.
Not even slightly. You're just underestimating the Old Ones.
However, the Orks do not have the Old Ones in their side in this conflict, so they are toast.
The Necron codex speaks of the Old Ones' power, not that of the Orks or Eldar. It explains how the Old Ones were defeated by being caught between Enslavers-and-friends, Necrons, and C'tan.
Without the Old Ones' mastery of the Warp, the Orks won't stand a chance against the Necrons.
Necrons are, however, one of the three endgame players who stand a chance of final victory in 40k, alongside Chaos and Tyranids.
Orks' one advantage is numbers (and even that is limited, if Necrons are indeed more numerous than humanity; a possibility that has been suggested). However, they can't bring these numbers to bear against the Necrons effectively, and the Necrons win in every other field.
Indeed, the Necrons could arguably defeat the Orks by solely using one device - the Celestial Orrery.
The Old Ones were dead at the point the Eldar wiped the floor with the Necrons. That's why the Necrons hid.
EmpNortonII wrote: The Old Ones were dead at the point the Eldar wiped the floor with the Necrons. That's why the Necrons hid.
The Eldar never wiped the floor with the Necrons, the Necrons retreated into stasis rather than fight the Eldar in their weakened state.
There were some battles between the two, and Zapennec for instance shows us that they were quite evenly matched, but for the most part it seems as if the Eldar left them to their sleep.
Logistically the Necrons would win. Yes orks can repopulate from spores and all that, but necrons, unliving inorganic beings can just scour all microbial life from a planet using robot-zombie-tech. they can destroy ROK's in space and that would effectively kill the orks. it would be a long and drawn out process, but the necrons would win. In addition to this, they would just specifically have to kill ghaz. once their war boss is dead the other bosses and nobs would fight amongst themselves for control and the entire Waaaagh would implode.
At the moment, yes, killing Ghazzy would end The Great Waaaagh! from gathering. However whenever someone gets close to killing him Gork and Mork makes him dissappear in a blast of green energy deus machina style. Lucky git. But really he's just a puppet on strings following orders from actual gods. This scenario assumes all the dynasties wake up unified and all the Orks are already unified. If Ghazzy succeeded in unifying the Orks then it wouldn't be Ghazzy leading the Orks anymore, Gork and Mork would no longer be in the Warp and would be in realspace leading the Orks. It might be enough incentive for the Necron to unshackle the C'tan at this point as the fluff is pretty clear that Gork and Mork are serious tanks that shrug off the attacks of the other chaos gods with a laugh and go back to 'playing'. I'd wager the C'tan are capable of countering Gork and Mork but it might take a few supernova....
The pylons the C'tan were working on before to cut off the Warp would probably be devastating to the Orks. To go for those would mean fighting Cadians and the 13th Crusade as well first in order to secure the planet and rebegin the project. This'll be one planet they won't want to win by tossing a Neutron Star (we'll assume there's one available nearby whenever needed) at their problem. I wonder if that would make Gork and Mork suddenly dissappear if they already are in real space? Or maybe they get to live in real space indefinitely from that day forward.
ProwlerPC wrote: If Ghazzy succeeded in unifying the Orks then it wouldn't be Ghazzy leading the Orks anymore, Gork and Mork would no longer be in the Warp and would be in realspace leading the Orks.
Read Ghazzy's supplement. His orders are to build up enough Waaaaagh! energy in the galaxy so Gork and Mork can rip themselves out of the Warp and enter real space to unite the Orks and begin Ragnarork. If this scenario assumes Necron Dynasties are awake and united as well as the Orks being united, then Ghazzy succeeded. Although a united Necron might also be under the thumb of ultra-powerful beings...the C'tan.
Perhaps, perhaps not. So far it's the only thing moving in the direction of unifying the Orks and has a measure of success. It's on par with theories of pylons and c'tan and neutron stars available on demand. I did place a caveat in my post that also assumes that if the Necron were once again united it's probably under the ultra-powerful C'tan which is more then a measurable counter.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Any one who says necrons obviously loves their... Well... They don't have the d... Their equivilant. Orks would, without trying, win. Because they can't lose. You can't ever trueky kill them you CAN truly kill necrons. Orks keep coming back. Everyone one that does spawns 5 more. Necrons lose EVERY time.
How do you truly kill something that vanishes in a flash of green light to be reborn at a Tomb Complex halfway across the galaxy, or in another dimension entirely?
Necrons win based simply because they have the mighty pinball machine of universal annihilation. A large panel where they can turn off lights on a whim and each of those lights are an individual star.
The only reason they haven't used it is because the left side flipper sticks a little and there is a solid slug jammed into the coin return.
I'll give it to the orks. Unified and so much WAAAAGH power that Gork and Mork can pass the boundaries. How can you stop that wich are being kept thrown at you in unimaginable numbers. The weak ones die, making place for multiple other new Orks. The stronger orks who survive will keep growing stronger, tougher and bigger.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: This is still going on? Even with undeniable proof of an easy ork victory? Such... Fanboyism
What proof do you have?
Don't argue with him. He can't be reasoned with. He ignores everything you say and instead just continues to present his opinion as fact without anything to back it up and combines it with a load of insults and fallacies. Responding to him is a waste of time.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Any one who says necrons obviously loves their... Well... They don't have the d... Their equivilant. Orks would, without trying, win. Because they can't lose. You can't ever trueky kill them you CAN truly kill necrons. Orks keep coming back. Everyone one that does spawns 5 more. Necrons lose EVERY time.
How do you truly kill something that vanishes in a flash of green light to be reborn at a Tomb Complex halfway across the galaxy, or in another dimension entirely?
Necrons can be damaged beyond repair. They are not invincible. Unlike the Orks, because the Orks are endless. Even if a billion Orks are killed for every Necron, the Orks still win. Orks are everywhere, and once they get on a planet there is no way to get rid of them short of blowing the whole planet up. The Necrons are divided and spread across the galaxy.
Considering that the Necrons killed the god-like beings that created the Orks, and then killed the god-like beings that basically created them, I would put a fair odds on them being able to put a hurting on Gork & Mork.
Not to mention the fact that, yeah, they can blow up stars from across the galaxy or, you know, travel through time to kill Ghazgul in his spore-pod.
My first impression from this thread is that orks are genetically hardwired to take enemy technology and, 'improve' it. Necrons would not see Orks as a threat, (they wouldn't be) until a lucky Waaagh hits on a weak, mostly disabled Tomb World and goes to town with the tech there.
That how I feel it would play out actually, not a "bring all your toys and see who wins" What if. Really, despite what the Old ones engineered Orks to do (Fight Necrons/ Didn't do a good job/ decided to go and krump everything else too/ became the single most prolific and traveled species in the Galaxy) they've quite simple become the Universe's best vermin.
Necrons? Have a strong enemy in the Eldar (Both Necrons and Eldar are shells of their former selves, even though the necron codex has the obligatory [no one knows how many there could be!] line) and not enough numbers to police the Galaxy.
My second impression was how similar some posters responses were to what I imagine an Ork or a Necrons actual response.
Ork: We arr winners! End of discussion! (can't be reasoned with, gung ho and ready fer krumpin!)
Necron: harrumph! Contingencies seven through twelve would OBVIOUSLY COMPLETELY neutralize your pathetic attempts at war. (bitter, arrogant old fogies trying to convince themselves that their metal shells are worth what they gave up for them.)
But seriously? I think the faction that wises up to the fact this one thread will not decide who actually wins and getting the last word in doesn't make you right will be the true winner.
The Necrons fought the Orks in the War in Heaven, they aren't unaware of what they are and what they are capable of. The Orks won't have a "grace period" while the Necrons analyze the threat, that was already done 60 million years ago.
If all the Orks in the galaxy ever united... bye-bye galaxy, and everything in it. That includes all the Necrons. The Necrons at their peak are long dead, the shells that remain are in decline. Orks are still Orks, they've spread and thrived, and spread some more, and thrived some more. They're everywhere... and they keep spreading and thriving. Added to this is the fact that the bigger and badder the wars become, the more the Orks feed off the carnage, growing more and more powerful. Added to this is also the fact that they consume and cannibalise any tech that's thrown at them, turning it into a mulitude of unfathomable, cunningly brutal and brutally cunning uses. Added to this is also the fact that the combined psychic energy generated by all the Orks gathering together would result in... things happening. Things so crazy, so insane that they can't even be explained. The galaxy's one saving grace is that they are just too violent, unstable and undiciplined to ever organise themselves into a single, colossal WHAAGH! Take that saving grace away for a hypothetical scenario and... well, bye-bye galaxy, bye-bye Necrons, and everything else along with them.
@Psi True to that point, well part of it. I too recognize that Necron and Orks have fought against each other 60 million yrs ago. Both side were soooooo unsuccessful that the fluff for both says each of their numbers are uncountable. Of course it's not as simple as that. But I'll add that the Ork weren't created to fight Necrons. The Orks were created sometime after the Eldar and sometime before the Enslaver Plaque. The Orks were created at the same time as the Ape like Joekaro and one other race I think didn't survive. They were created to help fight the first warp spawned entities inadvertantly created from the first psykic races that were created to fight Necrons. The Necrons didn't defeat the Old Ones (it's actually unsure if they were defeated or left) it was their own machinations that delivered the big blow that sent the Old Ones packing. Their home and sanctuary became a twisted thing of nightmares.
What happens to be in the way of the Necrons and the Pylons? I see Cadians, a few Space Marine chapters and a 13th Crusade spiced in with some Xenos for flavour. Also the Pylons were a C'tan thing, weren't they? One of the concessions I want to try and get is that the Necrons will have to go back to being slaves to the C'tan if they want to defeat the Ork race.
ProwlerPC wrote: What happens to be in the way of the Necrons and the Pylons? I see Cadians, a few Space Marine chapters and a 13th Crusade spiced in with some Xenos for flavour. Also the Pylons were a C'tan thing, weren't they? One of the concessions I want to try and get is that the Necrons will have to go back to being slaves to the C'tan if they want to defeat the Ork race.
No, Ctan thought of the idea, necron tech built it.
Pretty sure the necrons would fairly easily (easy by 40k standards is pretty tough..) Take enough of the planet.
Remember they are unified, so half their army would be sent there, tossing out tech that even chaos can't beat with their petty magics.
Remember, it works both ways, orks waaagh energy =\= auto win, as necrons have counters to it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To add on, they'd probably need to release more ctan shards then they'd like though
No, the Pylons are built by the Necrons. Were they directed to do so by the C'Tan? Maybe, but they are now in possession of that knowledge, and still possess their pokeballed C'Tan should they need to refer to them.
Yup that clarifies it. I agree that this would be one of the most effective strategies a faction can use to topple the Ork race. If the Necrons are united and went straight for Cadia in full force, yeah with some appreciable losses I think they can take Cadia and do the project. It would probably result in the end of the 13th Crusade too (Ork fluff says if the two Ork kingdoms noth of the Eye united and migrated out it would be enough to take the steam out of that Crusade so a united Necron and united Ork scenario could see that day through). But yeah without the Warp the Orks reality altering Waaaagh! energy which is so pivotal to their race is gone and they'd litteraly become just barbarians. I wonder if Gork and Mork will understand what's happening if that project started up again as I bet they as well as the Chaos Lords would be motivated into countering it. Cadia would once again continue to be the site of a most epic war with Necrons holding a static defence to protect the project and Orks flinging themselves into the meatgrinder to try and stop it and maybe even loot it.
Both armies meet in the first clash and the energy of that exchange creates a singularity which will suck up anything trying to get out of the Eye of Terror.
raiden wrote: Necrons finish the pylons, rip the real space away from warp. Ork waaaagh energy is now meaningless..
Except no... because that only works under the assumption that the unified Orks (including their psychic energy) would allow the Necrons to "finish the pylons", something which may or may not even be possible any more. And if it is, it will take a long time and a lot of resources, two things the Necrons won't have when facing the Orks. The WHAAGH energy is only one of the factors I listed above, so even if the Necrons had a magic anti-WHAAGH button (which they don't) it wouldn't win the war for them. Not even close.
ProwlerPC wrote: Yup that clarifies it. I agree that this would be one of the most effective strategies a faction can use to topple the Ork race. If the Necrons are united and went straight for Cadia in full force, yeah with some appreciable losses I think they can take Cadia and do the project.
But again, if the Necrons have united, so have the Orks. There's a crucial difference here... the Necrons have to head straight for Cadia, "finish the pylons" - something which they may or may not be able to actually do, and which will take an unknown amount of time. The Orks will already have the WHAAGH energy through the very act of unifying. Once they've unified, you think they're just going to sit back and wait while the Necrons make their attempt? Lol, no.
True. I've got no idea how long it would take to work on those Pylons. If it takes million or so years (these Necrons and their timeline on those days...) then the meatgrinder will probably come to an end before it's finished because the Waaaaaaagh! is already in effect for the scenario.
I would say that despite the other cool things Orks can do, particularly with grabbing and modifying any tech they steal no matter how complicated, they would need to Waaaaaagh! to work as it's the beacon by which all that massive numbers of hordes know exactly where to go for da big fight. It's that ever prevalant gestalt force that ties all the Orkiness together elegantly.
Fluff, eh, not sure. It has been said that if orks were to ever unite they'd crush the galaxy, but that could probably be reasonably said for just about any faction. Even the imperium is too fractious and disorganized to actually fight as a group.
But if my tabletop experiences my orks v. necrons is any indicator, necrons would exterminate orks from the galaxy with little to no resistance whatsoever.
Nope. First I need to see the source proving that the project, as envisioned and attempted by the C'tan, is even attainable by the Necrons at this point, that simply taking Cadia and "finishing the pylons" there will even result in a galaxy-wide warp block (as opposed to just a localised area), and that this endevour is possible instantaneously (unlikely). Once all that is proven, I need to see a source proving that the unified Necrons can accomplish that without the unified Orks stopping them.
Then, and only then, you may have the beginnings of an argument with legs.
Rogue Inquisitor Quixos, a human, built a Necron Pylon on a shoestring budget while hiding from the rest of the Inquisition on a planet with none of the natural resources required to construct such a thing.
The event is detailed in Malleus by Dan Abnett.
The Necrons have an infinite number of autonomous construction robots, native non-warp-based FTL travel and easy access to the raw materials. It seems evident that they are more than capable of exceeding the achievements of a long rogue human.
The Necrons don't even need to take Cadia. They've already finished working on Cadia. They just need to build the pylons across the rest of the galaxy.
Given the recent developments in Necron fluff, however, it seems likely that the entire Pylon is little more than an amplifier for the same technology that creates the Gloom Prisms.
While the Necrons have been napping, the Orks have multiplied exponentially, and have also spent the last few millennia fighting everything, upto and including Demons, Primachs and huge fanged dribbly things from another galaxy.
The Necrons have quite a bit of catching up to do, and would find that all their shiny toys wouldn't save them from having their arses comprehensively handed to them in a sling.
The Necrons might wirte big fluff, but they are a dead species, and every time they pop up out of a Tomb, a big bunch of them get sent to the big smelting pot in the sky. By the time they get around to waking up, there won't be any left.
Furyou Miko wrote: They just need to build the pylons across the rest of the galaxy.
Oh, is that all?
Yep. Pretty much it.
A few billion Night Scythes loaded with Tomb Spyders should do the trick in short order. Set the pylons up on airless moons where the orks can't be bothered to go. Jobs a good'un.
Anyone still have the old cron codex? I know it states that completion of the pylons solely on Cadia will severe the Materium from the Immaterium but I don't remember if it was on a galactic or universal scale. And to help with the whole citation needed shenanigans.
Also, nothing has been published since to my knowledge that retcons the pylons in any manner.
r_squared wrote: While the Necrons have been napping, the Orks have multiplied exponentially, and have also spent the last few millennia fighting everything, upto and including Demons, Primachs and huge fanged dribbly things from another galaxy.
The Necrons have quite a bit of catching up to do, and would find that all their shiny toys wouldn't save them from having their arses comprehensively handed to them in a sling.
The Necrons might wirte big fluff, but they are a dead species, and every time they pop up out of a Tomb, a big bunch of them get sent to the big smelting pot in the sky. By the time they get around to waking up, there won't be any left.
A single Dynasty of the Necrons took, what, 30 Imperial Worlds, including Hive Worlds, an Inquisitorial Fortress World, a Space Marine Homeworld (which was vaporized), and caused a star to become unstable, which incinerated a space-fortress and everything on the daylight side of a planet inside of 100 days? A single Dynasty, thoroughly riddled with the Flayer Virus, caused the complete collapse of an Imperial Sector inside of a year.
The Necrons raided Mars ffs, while the Orks have never been reported to have come anywhere near the Sol System.
Damaging a Necron to the point of irrepairability simply means that it doesn't stand up again. It phases out, its personality engram downloaded into a new Necrodermis shell.
The Void Dragon on Mars is not complete, since you can take shards of it in your Necron army.
IRT the Pylons, the ones on Cadia are complete. It's the reason the Cadian Gate exists. The Necrons would need to establish a ring of them around the Eye of Terror (and in other locations in the galaxy, potentially) to fully cut the galaxy off from the Warp.
This is assuming, of course, that other Pylons are not already present elsewhere in the galaxy.
Beyond that, we don't know much about them. Maybe they work with a sympathetic effect? Build a certain number of them lining up with certain stars and, bang, the whole thing is an arcane science ritual that shuts the Warp off forever? We don't know. Maybe they work like ley-lines? Connect the dots between the Pylons and it makes some symbol, like a constellation, that, once complete, seals the Warp away. Or causes all psychically-sensitive races to immolate. Or both.
r_squared wrote: While the Necrons have been napping, the Orks have multiplied exponentially, and have also spent the last few millennia fighting everything, upto and including Demons, Primachs and huge fanged dribbly things from another galaxy.
The Necrons have quite a bit of catching up to do, and would find that all their shiny toys wouldn't save them from having their arses comprehensively handed to them in a sling.
The Necrons might wirte big fluff, but they are a dead species, and every time they pop up out of a Tomb, a big bunch of them get sent to the big smelting pot in the sky. By the time they get around to waking up, there won't be any left.
A single Dynasty of the Necrons took, what, 30 Imperial Worlds, including Hive Worlds, an Inquisitorial Fortress World, a Space Marine Homeworld (which was vaporized), and caused a star to become unstable, which incinerated a space-fortress and everything on the daylight side of a planet inside of 100 days? A single Dynasty, thoroughly riddled with the Flayer Virus, caused the complete collapse of an Imperial Sector inside of a year.
Psienesis wrote: The Void Dragon on Mars is not complete, since you can take shards of it in your Necron army.
IRT the Pylons, the ones on Cadia are complete. It's the reason the Cadian Gate exists. The Necrons would need to establish a ring of them around the Eye of Terror (and in other locations in the galaxy, potentially) to fully cut the galaxy off from the Warp.
This is assuming, of course, that other Pylons are not already present elsewhere in the galaxy.
Beyond that, we don't know much about them. Maybe they work with a sympathetic effect? Build a certain number of them lining up with certain stars and, bang, the whole thing is an arcane science ritual that shuts the Warp off forever? We don't know. Maybe they work like ley-lines? Connect the dots between the Pylons and it makes some symbol, like a constellation, that, once complete, seals the Warp away. Or causes all psychically-sensitive races to immolate. Or both.
The Cadian pylons aren't really talked about in the 3e codex - most of the fluff released around it was actually in White Dwarf and the BL novels of the time.
That said, sharding the Void Dragon was a huge mistake from a fluff point of view - the Emperor fought it in an epic battle that lasted days and crossed two planets.
If he was fighting a whole C'tan, that was awesome. If he was just fighting a C'tan Shard... well, that really makes him look a bit pathetic, really, given that Ahriman can punch a C'tan Shard's lights out in a matter of minutes.
THE ULTIMATE QUESTION:
If GW fell on hard times financially and they had to dramatically cut the amount of product the produce and support, which army is more likely to get cut and which is more likely to survive?
I believe Orks sell more models and therefore, if push comes to shove, GW would write some 40k End Times fluff that explains the demise of Necrons and justifies the survival of Orks in the new, slimmed-down 40k universe. Put another way, can you picture the 40k universe without Necros? Can you picture it without Orks?
Only GW fluff can determine who wins and, as a business, GW fluff will support the Orks if they are ever forced to choose.
Personally, I think GW writes over-powered fluff for the Necrons to make them seem scary so people will take them seriously. I also think this is why they write over-powered rules for Necrons: they need help selling models.
Orks don't need help from the rules or fluff that makes them sound unstoppable to sell models. People buy and play Orks for the simple reason that they are the most fun army to model, paint and play in a hobby that is supposed to be fun. They are a well-designed product.
The winner of Necrons vs. Orks? In a gaming system and a hobby and a business, it comes down to this: The Rule of Cool. And people vote with their wallets.
THE ULTIMATE QUESTION:
If GW fell on hard times financially and they had to dramatically cut the amount of product the produce and support, which army is more likely to get cut and which is more likely to survive?
I believe Orks sell more models and therefore, if push comes to shove, GW would write some 40k End Times fluff that explains the demise of Necrons and justifies the survival of Orks in the new, slimmed-down 40k universe. Put another way, can you picture the 40k universe without Necros? Can you picture it without Orks?
Only GW fluff can determine who wins and, as a business, GW fluff will support the Orks if they are ever forced to choose.
Personally, I think GW writes over-powered fluff for the Necrons to make them seem scary so people will take them seriously. I also think this is why they write over-powered rules for Necrons: they need help selling models.
Orks don't need help from the rules or fluff that makes them sound unstoppable to sell models. People buy and play Orks for the simple reason that they are the most fun army to model, paint and play in a hobby that is supposed to be fun. They are a well-designed product.
The winner of Necrons vs. Orks? In a gaming system and a hobby and a business, it comes down to this: The Rule of Cool. And people vote with their wallets.
People keep using the argument that a dead ork just spawns more orks and dead necrons are dead necrons. That just isn't true.
For one, gauss weaponry deconstructs matter on an atomic level. This would include the ork spores, so a lot of them would be destroyed before being able to develop. Secondly, a down Necron certainly isn't a dead Necron. When a Necron is damaged beyond the power of his Reanimation protocol, he gets teleported to the nearest tomb world and is repaired there. So in theory, Necron numbers are almost as infinite as Orks.
On top of that, Necrons needn't face Orks in battle to defeat them. They have a machine that projects all the stars in the galaxy in a hologram. If they snuff out the little light on the hologram, the physical star goes supernova and deep-fries anything in a 30 to 7.500 lightyear radius depending on the star. So a single Necron lord could wave his arm through that hologram and BOOM. Even a Googol orks wouldn't survive that because when everywhere explodes (save some necron tomb worlds), nowhere's safe. And of course any and all spores are burned along with them.
Gw has shown fluff wise orks would win. That fluff has been quoted multiple times. Please leave your false claims at tha dakka door and enjoy your err... Necron loving? Stay. Stupid scraps of worthless junk metal. An ork getting a hold of one MIGHT just actually make it good. Maybe. It's a long shot though.
The fluff isn't reliable, its said that the IG could defeat any enemy if they were to put all their might into it, therefore, they can beat the Necrons, Nids, Daemons and Orks, but only if they face them separately.
Which contradicts other things, so don'T take it at face value.
And by the way, the Necrons are 2nd least favorite faction, I just hate the orks a lot more.
On top of that, Necrons needn't face Orks in battle to defeat them. They have a machine that projects all the stars in the galaxy in a hologram. If they snuff out the little light on the hologram, the physical star goes supernova and deep-fries anything in a 30 to 7.500 lightyear radius depending on the star. So a single Necron lord could wave his arm through that hologram and BOOM. Even a Googol orks wouldn't survive that because when everywhere explodes (save some necron tomb worlds), nowhere's safe. And of course any and all spores are burned along with them.
That machine has not been elaborated on. How it actually works is a mystery. All we know is that if one of the lights is snuffed out then the corresponding star goes supernova millennia before its natural time. It could take thousands or even millions of years for the reaction to actually occur. It could require a ship to be dispatched to destroy the star; a ship which could be intercepted. Besides that, what evidence is there that any Necron tomb worlds would survive?
On top of that, Necrons needn't face Orks in battle to defeat them. They have a machine that projects all the stars in the galaxy in a hologram. If they snuff out the little light on the hologram, the physical star goes supernova and deep-fries anything in a 30 to 7.500 lightyear radius depending on the star. So a single Necron lord could wave his arm through that hologram and BOOM. Even a Googol orks wouldn't survive that because when everywhere explodes (save some necron tomb worlds), nowhere's safe. And of course any and all spores are burned along with them.
That machine has not been elaborated on. How it actually works is a mystery. All we know is that if one of the lights is snuffed out then the corresponding star goes supernova millennia before its natural time. It could take thousands or even millions of years for the reaction to actually occur. It could require a ship to be dispatched to destroy the star; a ship which could be intercepted. Besides that, what evidence is there that any Necron tomb worlds would survive?
They're walking calculators. It would be quite easy for them to figure out what stars to explode and which they should leave alone.
Even if snuffing the light out meant "starting up the star going supernova", it'd only take roughly 100 seconds from start to finish, because that's how long it takes for a star to go supernova once conditions are met. If it were just "increasing the speed at which the star hoes supernova", it would've said so because there's no reason to use the wording as it's currently printed to imply anything but it going supernova on short term.
And then you're just making wild assumptions. The info on the machine says "Snuff out one of these lights and its physical counterpart in the real galaxy will go supernova long millennia before its destined timSnuff out one of these lights and its physical counterpart in the real galaxy will go supernova long millennia before its destined time". So the thingy about the ship is just wild speculation on your part. It says that snuff out light= super nova, no clauses.
They're walking calculators. It would be quite easy for them to figure out what stars to explode and which they should leave alone.
Even if snuffing the light out meant "starting up the star going supernova", it'd only take roughly 100 seconds from start to finish, because that's how long it takes for a star to go supernova once conditions are met. If it were just "increasing the speed at which the star hoes supernova", it would've said so because there's no reason to use the wording as it's currently printed to imply anything but it going supernova on short term.
And then you're just making wild assumptions. The info on the machine says "Snuff out one of these lights and its physical counterpart in the real galaxy will go supernova long millennia before its destined timSnuff out one of these lights and its physical counterpart in the real galaxy will go supernova long millennia before its destined time". So the thingy about the ship is just wild speculation on your part. It says that snuff out light= super nova, no clauses.
Fair point.
Short term for a star, or for Necrons, would be very different than short term for us.
We're all making assumptions here. The wording is precise enough for us not too.The Necrons have no Psychic powers. Everything they do is based on the Materium. At the very least a signal has to reach the star somehow.
My point is that the Celestial Orrery, despite its power, has almost no information given about it. How it works, how quickly it works, what consequences its misuse actually has. All we know is that it turns stars supernova millennia before their time, using it can have negative consequences and that its caretakers are very careful of how they use it. I do not feel like it has a valid place in a discussion like this because there are far too many unknowns.
The C'tan and the Necron already went on a star killing spree in the distant past during their war against the Old Ones. Snuffing out stars left and right during a period of time only such long lived creatures can fathom. Look at how many billions and billions of stars still remained. Apparantly it takes an appreciable amount of time and effort to snuff out all the stars because they never managed to scratch more then the surface before failing to complete the attempt. Why wasn't this celestial thingie able to do it in a flash in the past? What makes it capable of doing it in the flash today (well 100 secs) when it couldn't previously? Why is there soo many stars left over from an actual attempt before? Why are there still stars now why aren't they blowing them all up as we speak?
ProwlerPC wrote: The C'tan and the Necron already went on a star killing spree in the distant past during their war against the Old Ones. Snuffing out stars left and right during a period of time only such long lived creatures can fathom. Look at how many billions and billions of stars still remained. Apparantly it takes an appreciable amount of time and effort to snuff out all the stars because they never managed to scratch more then the surface before failing to complete the attempt. Why wasn't this celestial thingie able to do it in a flash in the past? What makes it capable of doing it in the flash today (well 100 secs) when it couldn't previously? Why is there soo many stars left over from an actual attempt before? Why are there still stars now why aren't they blowing them all up as we speak?
Failing the attempt? They weren't trying to destroy the galaxy. They removed those stars that were tactically-expedient to do so against their chosen foes. They obviously weren't detonating the stars local to Dynastic Crownworlds and the like.
The Celestial Orrery, from what we're told, *is* capable, and always has been capable, of destroying stars in very short order. Of course, when you remove a star from the galactic equation, you're mucking about with the balance of gravity across the entire expanse of space. This can have Unforeseen Consequences, which is why the Necrons only use this device very sparingly.
Besides, with the time-traveling powers of Orikan the Diviner, there's no need to snuff stars, just go back in time and murder people's great-grandparents. Then they're never born and cease to be a threat in your usual time-line.
They are nice and all, but ultimately just a meme machine.
The Imperium and even Chaos are no less meme machines.
Hell, all of 40k is pretty good at meme generation come to think of it.
DaPino wrote: People keep using the argument that a dead ork just spawns more orks and dead necrons are dead necrons. That just isn't true.
For one, gauss weaponry deconstructs matter on an atomic level. This would include the ork spores, so a lot of them would be destroyed before being able to develop. Secondly, a down Necron certainly isn't a dead Necron. When a Necron is damaged beyond the power of his Reanimation protocol, he gets teleported to the nearest tomb world and is repaired there. So in theory, Necron numbers are almost as infinite as Orks.
On top of that, Necrons needn't face Orks in battle to defeat them. They have a machine that projects all the stars in the galaxy in a hologram. If they snuff out the little light on the hologram, the physical star goes supernova and deep-fries anything in a 30 to 7.500 lightyear radius depending on the star. So a single Necron lord could wave his arm through that hologram and BOOM. Even a Googol orks wouldn't survive that because when everywhere explodes (save some necron tomb worlds), nowhere's safe. And of course any and all spores are burned along with them.
Orks shed spores to reproduce even whilst they're alive; death just triggers an individually MASSIVE spore release. But everyone an ork scratches his back, spits, scrapes off some skin whilst working on a new bike, or gets cut in a brawl he's sheeding spores and making more orks.
Necrons phasing can be prevented if they sustain enough damage - which also destroys the personality of the individual necron (I.E. the important part). Not to mention that if a tomb world is lost.. Well, it's a pretty critical blow.
Yes, the Necrons could win a Pyrrhic victory by just snuffing all the sun existance and exterminating all life bar their own. But that defeats the purpose of winning - they want to rule a galaxy, not a collection of frozen ice balls. It's also stated that using the device in such a way has.. pretty dire effects, essentially throwing all of existence out of whack and making it unbalanced. We've no clue what this means, but just that it makes them very afraid. Utilizing the device in such a way as to wipe out the Orks (I.E. destroy every sun in the galaxy) could simply destroy the galaxy itself, melt reality, cause the material plane to merge with the warp permanently, or any number of other things. The point is that it's not really a viable option.
Orks shed spores to reproduce even whilst they're alive; death just triggers an individually MASSIVE spore release. But everyone an ork scratches his back, spits, scrapes off some skin whilst working on a new bike, or gets cut in a brawl he's sheeding spores and making more orks.
Necrons phasing can be prevented if they sustain enough damage - which also destroys the personality of the individual necron (I.E. the important part). Not to mention that if a tomb world is lost.. Well, it's a pretty critical blow.
Yes, the Necrons could win a Pyrrhic victory by just snuffing all the sun existance and exterminating all life bar their own. But that defeats the purpose of winning - they want to rule a galaxy, not a collection of frozen ice balls. It's also stated that using the device in such a way has.. pretty dire effects, essentially throwing all of existence out of whack and making it unbalanced. We've no clue what this means, but just that it makes them very afraid. Utilizing the device in such a way as to wipe out the Orks (I.E. destroy every sun in the galaxy) could simply destroy the galaxy itself, melt reality, cause the material plane to merge with the warp permanently, or any number of other things. The point is that it's not really a viable option.
And again I retort by saying it's unfair to say that it's easy to kill a Necron, because you "just have to deal enough damage" while at the same time, orks (as a race) would indestructible because they have spores. Necrons destroying spores would be just as likely as Orks destroying Necrons completely.
Orks shed spores to reproduce even whilst they're alive; death just triggers an individually MASSIVE spore release. But everyone an ork scratches his back, spits, scrapes off some skin whilst working on a new bike, or gets cut in a brawl he's sheeding spores and making more orks.
Necrons phasing can be prevented if they sustain enough damage - which also destroys the personality of the individual necron (I.E. the important part). Not to mention that if a tomb world is lost.. Well, it's a pretty critical blow.
Yes, the Necrons could win a Pyrrhic victory by just snuffing all the sun existance and exterminating all life bar their own. But that defeats the purpose of winning - they want to rule a galaxy, not a collection of frozen ice balls. It's also stated that using the device in such a way has.. pretty dire effects, essentially throwing all of existence out of whack and making it unbalanced. We've no clue what this means, but just that it makes them very afraid. Utilizing the device in such a way as to wipe out the Orks (I.E. destroy every sun in the galaxy) could simply destroy the galaxy itself, melt reality, cause the material plane to merge with the warp permanently, or any number of other things. The point is that it's not really a viable option.
And again I retort by saying it's unfair to say that it's easy to kill a Necron, because you "just have to deal enough damage" while at the same time, orks (as a race) would indestructible because they have spores. Necrons destroying spores would be just as likely as Orks destroying Necrons completely.
He's complimenting the orks, why complain when someone is supporting your side? Necrons are extremely hard to put down, due to general resistance, powerful regeneration tech, and the fact that they bite back hard. One way to stop them would be to get inside the monolith and destroy it from the inside, but unless your Ciaphis Cain, it's not going to happen.
On the other hand, orks could swarm the crons with untold amounts of orky bits. Both sides are bound to take casualties, but orks won't really care because even if they have one ork left after the whole thing is done, they can come back. It would take an absurd amount of time to do it, but its possible. The one thing that made me go for orks was the fact that it's said they would take over the galaxy if they all united. (And a little bit of biasing, to be honest). These are my favorite two races, and this got me thinking. If orks get their hand on necron tech, could we see some necrorks? That, I would pay to see.
2BlackJack1 wrote: He's complimenting the orks, why complain when someone is supporting your side? Necrons are extremely hard to put down, due to general resistance, powerful regeneration tech, and the fact that they bite back hard. One way to stop them would be to get inside the monolith and destroy it from the inside, but unless your Ciaphis Cain, it's not going to happen.
On the other hand, orks could swarm the crons with untold amounts of orky bits. Both sides are bound to take casualties, but orks won't really care because even if they have one ork left after the whole thing is done, they can come back. It would take an absurd amount of time to do it, but its possible. The one thing that made me go for orks was the fact that it's said they would take over the galaxy if they all united. (And a little bit of biasing, to be honest). These are my favorite two races, and this got me thinking. If orks get their hand on necron tech, could we see some necrorks? That, I would pay to see.
Orks have gotten their hands on Necron technology and the result was them vaporizing not only themselves but the entire planet they were on. Classic case of curiosity killed the cat, or should I say ork in this case.
2BlackJack1 wrote: He's complimenting the orks, why complain when someone is supporting your side? Necrons are extremely hard to put down, due to general resistance, powerful regeneration tech, and the fact that they bite back hard. One way to stop them would be to get inside the monolith and destroy it from the inside, but unless your Ciaphis Cain, it's not going to happen.
On the other hand, orks could swarm the crons with untold amounts of orky bits. Both sides are bound to take casualties, but orks won't really care because even if they have one ork left after the whole thing is done, they can come back. It would take an absurd amount of time to do it, but its possible. The one thing that made me go for orks was the fact that it's said they would take over the galaxy if they all united. (And a little bit of biasing, to be honest). These are my favorite two races, and this got me thinking. If orks get their hand on necron tech, could we see some necrorks? That, I would pay to see.
But the same is said of a lot of armies in the fluff, so really if 2 armies gathered all of their forces, it'd just be immovable object versus unstoppable force.
Orks shed spores to reproduce even whilst they're alive; death just triggers an individually MASSIVE spore release. But everyone an ork scratches his back, spits, scrapes off some skin whilst working on a new bike, or gets cut in a brawl he's sheeding spores and making more orks.
Necrons phasing can be prevented if they sustain enough damage - which also destroys the personality of the individual necron (I.E. the important part). Not to mention that if a tomb world is lost.. Well, it's a pretty critical blow.
Yes, the Necrons could win a Pyrrhic victory by just snuffing all the sun existance and exterminating all life bar their own. But that defeats the purpose of winning - they want to rule a galaxy, not a collection of frozen ice balls. It's also stated that using the device in such a way has.. pretty dire effects, essentially throwing all of existence out of whack and making it unbalanced. We've no clue what this means, but just that it makes them very afraid. Utilizing the device in such a way as to wipe out the Orks (I.E. destroy every sun in the galaxy) could simply destroy the galaxy itself, melt reality, cause the material plane to merge with the warp permanently, or any number of other things. The point is that it's not really a viable option.
And again I retort by saying it's unfair to say that it's easy to kill a Necron, because you "just have to deal enough damage" while at the same time, orks (as a race) would indestructible because they have spores. Necrons destroying spores would be just as likely as Orks destroying Necrons completely.
Not really, that's your fanboyism talking
Oh really? A race capable of bending time and space would not be able to track down and destroy fungal spores?
Now you're just trying to make me laugh.
Same can't said of the other armies in the fluff. The Orks are the only ones with the fluff that says if they united they would sweep all the others from the galaxy.
Not sure how bending space and time (ie: big ass gravity) will help in hunting for spores. Does it let off a beeping noise when it finds spores in the ground like a metal detector? Does it allow them to stop time so that while they are destroying spores in one area of the galaxy the area they already cleared doesn't get filled up behind them with more Orks and spores? This is an issue the Imperium keeps running into. Destroy an entire planet and move on only to find that Orks repopulated the gap left behind either because some space debris with spores on it crashed into the planet or an Ork Kroozer comes out randomly from the warp to infest the broken planet all over again.
The galaxy has Orks up to saturation levels. There isn't a force big enough to coral them into a single long front and pushing them completely back.
2BlackJack1 wrote: The one thing that made me go for orks was the fact that it's said they would take over the galaxy if they all united....
But the same is said of a lot of armies in the fluff, so really if 2 armies gathered all of their forces, it'd just be immovable object versus unstoppable force.
Citation needed.
Oh, sure, the nids are "uncountable and maybe have uncountable squared more coming" and the Necrons have "untold tomb worlds. They might have an empire of actual, superior soldiers almost as big as the entire Imperium of man." Orks get "united, they would crush all opposition" because uniting is -3% likely for them.
Really, that is why I enjoy the Orks "We are the krumpiest" and not the Tyranids "lol GG, We're more and better and become better faster and also there's more of us" or the Necrons "LULZ. We are magic and we totez killed everybody and we are faster and better and invincible and can point and explode you."
Granted, that's a little unfair but I honestly don't like the way the nids and the necrons do it in their fluff. Orks are a fun, believable, non-terminal, immeasurable menace. Some of you guys don't like that flavor in your grimdark, and that's okay. But yeah, you know which way I voted.
@The guy who made the insightful post in response to mine. Good point. I still don't think the Necrons would take Orks seriously until they had Necron tek. They're quite proud, or distracted, or insane, depending on the tomb world.
Not sure how bending space and time (ie: big ass gravity) will help in hunting for spores. Does it let off a beeping noise when it finds spores in the ground like a metal detector? Does it allow them to stop time so that while they are destroying spores in one area of the galaxy the area they already cleared doesn't get filled up behind them with more Orks and spores? This is an issue the Imperium keeps running into. Destroy an entire planet and move on only to find that Orks repopulated the gap left behind either because some space debris with spores on it crashed into the planet or an Ork Kroozer comes out randomly from the warp to infest the broken planet all over again.
On Armageddon it was proved that teams of soldiers with flamethrowers hunting down Ork Funghi before they hatch are an effective method of preventing Feral Ork resurgences.
Not sure how bending space and time (ie: big ass gravity) will help in hunting for spores. Does it let off a beeping noise when it finds spores in the ground like a metal detector? Does it allow them to stop time so that while they are destroying spores in one area of the galaxy the area they already cleared doesn't get filled up behind them with more Orks and spores? This is an issue the Imperium keeps running into. Destroy an entire planet and move on only to find that Orks repopulated the gap left behind either because some space debris with spores on it crashed into the planet or an Ork Kroozer comes out randomly from the warp to infest the broken planet all over again.
On Armageddon it was proved that teams of soldiers with flamethrowers hunting down Ork Funghi before they hatch are an effective method of preventing Feral Ork resurgences.
And ia it was proven nevrons are fragile in their eyes. Point is
Sorry but I know at least Boss Snikrot and his Red Skull Kommandos from Ghazzy's first invasion of Armegeddon survived and rejoined the battle when Ghazzy returned shedding spores the whole time. Ok here I got a part the fluff pointed out on pg 19 in W!G that 'Feral Orks and Kommando teams burst from the equatorial jungles and mountain ranges of Armegeddon to join the growing throngs.'
A world that had 57 yrs to the day to clean up and prepare and build up for the Orks return (Yarrick warned em). If they were missing all those and they had 57 yrs to shed spores it looks to me like a planet that was going to be stuck with the endless cycle of Orks despite best efforts short of exterminatus.
Armageddon is simple to explain - it's jungles are vast and it has the best Kommando in the galaxy sneaking in it. It is a very special - arguably unique - case, and therefore easy enough to reconcile with the many cases of Ork infestations being smoothly purged.
In addition, I assure you that hiding from scared, scarce Guard patrols and hiding from relentless Necron automata are very different things. Hell, in the Ork codex we see in a quote that some Imperial commanders don't even believe Kommandos exist at all.
Oh really? A race capable of bending time and space would not be able to track down and destroy fungal spores?
Now you're just trying to make me laugh.
It's not simply as easy as "Kill the spores", that's the entire point. Necrons are superior technology wise, and they could "cleanse" a world of Orks much easier than the Imperium. It would be tedious and frustrating, but they could.
The problem is that cleansing a world doesn't mean the Orks don't just re-settle it.
Case in points: Orks are drawn to good fights, and if you beat Orks they'll just come back because it was a right-good scrap. So the Crons destroy an Ork fleet, put down all the Orks on the world, and then cleanse it entirely of spores. Alright, great. They move on.
Some time later, more Orks show up looking for the fight. They land on the planet (releasing spores), at which point one of two things happen. Either they settle in for one reason or another - maybe they get stranded. Start harvesting all the scrap left in space from the battle, dig into the planet itself and harvest more metals / oils / yadda yadda. Alternatively they just leave, because there's no fight. However their spores are now on the planet - and while it may be barren, Orks bring their own eco system with them. Awhile later Orks suddenly start cropping up small numbers on the world, and after awhile they turn into a fully-fledged space faring Ork force via (again) harvesting what's in the planet and left in space nearby from the original Orks who died there.
Either way the result is the same thing. The Orks wind up in the exact same position as before, and the 'Crons have to come back and wipe them out again.
I never said that defeating an Ork force would (fluff-wise) be particularly hard for the Necrons, but the problem is simply how Orks go about doing crap. Sure they can cleanse a planet of spores, but they then have to guard and watch over that planet. And not just with some tiny force either, they have to dedicate some actual assets to it (or else risk too-large an Ork fleet showing up and beating them). This means that the Necrons would have to leave a substantial garrison / ship group at every single world they cleanse of Orkoid infestation.In the entire galaxy.
Regardless of tech, this becomes pretty difficult for a race that has finite numbers and no-longer reproduces in any way. Especially when dealing with an enemy that spreads and gestitates in the manner that Orks do.
ProwlerPC wrote:Sorry but I know at least Boss Snikrot and his Red Skull Kommandos from Ghazzy's first invasion of Armegeddon survived and rejoined the battle when Ghazzy returned shedding spores the whole time. Ok here I got a part the fluff pointed out on pg 19 in W!G that 'Feral Orks and Kommando teams burst from the equatorial jungles and mountain ranges of Armegeddon to join the growing throngs.'
A world that had 57 yrs to the day to clean up and prepare and build up for the Orks return (Yarrick warned em). If they were missing all those and they had 57 yrs to shed spores it looks to me like a planet that was going to be stuck with the endless cycle of Orks despite best efforts short of exterminatus.
As far as I'm aware, the burn teams weren't instigated on Armageddon until the Third War, and were instigated as a result of the Feral Ork infestation that revealed itself at the start of said war.
Allow me to finish that sentence for you: "Orks are a fun, believable, non-terminal, immeasurable menace."
I meant in terms of 'threats to the galaxy.' It is quite plausible that a race of the Ork's description would be a lasting menace while not threatening the Imperium's actual existence.
Frankly, the technophobic, learnophobic Imperium lasting more than a century or two verses human ingenuity breaks my suspension of disbelief. Let's not even talk about the time warp evolution of the Nids. When you really think about it, fungal warriors who sport hair via other parasitic organisms is equally plausible.
As someone who plays Necrons and Orkz as allies (however much that is possible, thanks for nothing 7ed), this is quite a personal thought experiment. My bet is still on the Orkz, since as has been pointed multiple times, the Orkz have a virtually limitless number and can salvage anything, even Necron tech, while the Necrons, for all their mastery of pretty much everything in the universe, have a very finite number. As someone said (paraphrased): "If 1 Necron irreperably dies while 1 million Orkz die also die, the Orkz got an advantage out of that".
Rule 1 is an important rule. That's why it is rule 1. Be polite. That includes your manner, the tone of your post (which is hard to judge through text, so take extra time if you are posting angry to think about if you really have to), the types of arguments you are making (are you addressing an argument in your post or an individual) and more. So keep it in mind when posting in this thread, and on Dakka in general
I voted for Orks, even with my somewhat limited knowledge of Necrons. Looking at the Ork codex, there are a couple of quotes that are somewhat interesting (apologies if these have been mentioned previously)
'Instead, they plough from one conquest to the next, secure in the knowledge that one day, they will rule it all'
'should the Orks ever truly unify, they would crush all opposition.'
I'm not saying that the Orks would win hands-down no question, but from my (again limited) knowledge, it seems like you need to look no further than the Codex to see that they'd stand the best chance of winning. That being said, the Orks will never truly unify, but it sounds like the same can be said of the Necrons.
Bobthehero wrote: Codex's are gently the ne sided propaganda, according to the IG one, they can beat anyone if they're able to focus on one enemy at a time
Arch-Arsonist of Ontario wrote:.....'should the Orks ever truly unify, they would crush all opposition.'.
Bobthehero wrote:Codex's are generally one sided propaganda, according to the IG one, they can beat anyone if they're able to focus on one enemy at a time
There's your answer. The Guard can only handle one enemy at a time, the Orks will crush all opposition.
So, actually, the Necrons are a mere speedbump to Orks. According to GW, the Orks would destroy every faction in the 40k universe simultaneously.
I wonder why they don't allow us to play GT's for free in a formation to prove it? Everyone else seems to get free fluff based buffs like this.
Well if they didn't begin doing that til the Third War and that Third War is still raging on with billions of Orks and IG pouring in from a 1k light yr radii then I'd say it hasn't shown if it's effective or not yet. I am not commenting on the other two examples as no source was provided for any of the examples and I'm not letting myself get baited into chasing ghosts. If there's a source for the other two examples and you or anyone can point them out I'll be happy to read it. I tackled one example by digging blindly through the stack because you handed me an easy one, I see no reason to keep the ball in my court.
That's the joy of these thought experiments for 40k. Each faction is written with their own beautiful bias and these discussions make a great stage to bring them out in the spotlight. My knowledge of both factions have improved.
Both exemple are from the Ciaphas Cain books, don't remember which ones. Pragia is still under attack from space pirate orks, but there are no orks on the surface.
There is one really big thing that people here seem to forget: SPACE BATTLES. The Necron fleets are literally the best in the entire galaxy, surpassed by none save a fleet of Ark Mechanici. If worst comes to worst, they annihilate the Orc Fleet, cover the planet in plasma, and get back to what they were doing.
Forge World's official website entry for Orks says this.
Orks occupy more of the galaxy than any other single race and were they unified they would soon crush all opposition. However, the Ork's passion for violence is so unquenchable that they spend most of their time warring amongst themselves.
Aside from the obvious meaning of the passage, consider another factor. Orks, if united, would crush all opposition... Wouldn't this mean all current opposition? The Necron race is extremely fragmented, and while they do not infight as much as the Orks, they are nonetheless far from a united empire and various dynasties - ranging from large to tiny - form the Necron race. If the Orks united right now and faced the fragmented Necron empire, victory for the Orks is entire plausible as the passage says. However, if the Necrons too are united, then it radically changes the odds.
I can't refute that point. I have to agree that passage only puts the Orks in a theoretical position while the others are assumed to be in current state. I don't want to fall into the logical fallacy of 'the lack of evidence equals evidence' but I kind of want to assume that the authors would state in some way that 'should the Necron dynasties ever unite they would clean the galaxy of squatters' or something to that effect. I'll be the first to say that this wouldn't hold ground in a strict court of law but like a shrewd lawyer before a jury I figure I'd toss that bit on the table for the audience nonetheless.
In order to claim power and toughness in fluff scenarios examples must be given. You can't just say "war in heaven boom" show some fluff that would state how much more powerful necrons would be than orks.
Codex Necrons gives us examples like these, suggesting that the united Necrons marching to war and really going for it is something very different from the scattered dynasties we see today.
Armed with weapons of god-like power and starships that could cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye, the Necrontyr stood ready to begin their war against the Old Ones anew.
The Triarchs struck against the Old Ones and plunged the Necrontyr race into a devastating war that saw worlds consumed, suns extinguished, and entire solar systems consumed.
Keep in mind the power necessary to consume a solar system. If Earth was the size of a peppercorn, the solar system would be 2,000 yards across. Destroying a world is within the power of the Orks, but they are simply not playing in the same league as the Necrons.
Negative ghost rider, their in a league above. It's been said this even has dire affects on the necrons. And can only be done very few times. Good try though. Next.
Ashiraya wrote: Forge World's official website entry for Orks says this.
Orks occupy more of the galaxy than any other single race and were they unified they would soon crush all opposition. However, the Ork's passion for violence is so unquenchable that they spend most of their time warring amongst themselves.
Aside from the obvious meaning of the passage, consider another factor. Orks, if united, would crush all opposition... Wouldn't this mean all current opposition? The Necron race is extremely fragmented, and while they do not infight as much as the Orks, they are nonetheless far from a united empire and various dynasties - ranging from large to tiny - form the Necron race. If the Orks united right now and faced the fragmented Necron empire, victory for the Orks is entire plausible as the passage says. However, if the Necrons too are united, then it radically changes the odds.
It's still pretty clear cut. United Orks would wipe the entire galaxy of all oppositon. Imperium of Man, Mechanicus, Astartes, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Chaos, Necrons, Tyranids... everyone. That feat alone outweighs facing just one other faction, united or not. The only one that could give united Orks a run for their money would be all the combined Tyranid Hive Fleets, but they'd still lose to the green tide eventually.
Necrons walk into and out of hyperphasic dimensions on a whim.
At least 1 Necron has the ability to travel backwards and forwards in time, on a whim, making adjustments to the continuity of the galaxy as he does so.
The Necrons walked into the Warp, unprotected, kicked ass, took names, and then walked right back out... and then proceeded to kick the ass of their own gods. Orks have demonstrated no ability to do this, and are just as subject to the predations of the Warp as any other species is.
The vast majority of the Necron population exist as near-mindless automatons. It is speculated that any number of copies of a given Warrior may be active at any given time, simply by inloading copies of what passes for its personality engram into new Necrodermis bodies, which is something the Necrons seem to have no shortage of.
As hardy as Orks are, Necrons can live in a far greater variety of environments, including most of those that would kill Orks outright (like airless voids). There is a comparatively-narrow band of worlds on which Orks could be found... there is no such practical limitation for Necrons.
Necrons can snipe targets from the next galaxy over, or even farther, should they desire it. The Tachyon Arrow, for example, is one such weapon. According to its lore. "Such a weapon has near-infinite range, and is able to penetrate almost any form of armour, including that of Titans." This weapon, by the way, is carried on a forearm-mounted gauntlet.
It's still pretty clear cut. United Orks would wipe the entire galaxy of all oppositon. Imperium of Man, Mechanicus, Astartes, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Chaos, Necrons, Tyranids... everyone. That feat alone outweighs facing just one other faction, united or not. The only one that could give united Orks a run for their money would be all the combined Tyranid Hive Fleets, but they'd still lose to the green tide eventually.
I am not sure where you get this from. It is said that united they would defeat all opposition... are you sure it does not refer to all current opposition rather than all potential opposition? The current opposition is not only infighting, but the factions that are infighting are themselves scattered.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Negative ghost rider, their in a league above. It's been said this even has dire affects on the necrons. And can only be done very few times. Good try though. Next.
I do not believe the quotes I gave mentioned the Celestial Orrery.
Also, condescension does not aid your side of the argument.
Psienesis wrote: The Necrons walked into the Warp, unprotected, kicked ass, took names, and then walked right back out... and then proceeded to kick the ass of their own gods. Orks have demonstrated no ability to do this, and are just as subject to the predations of the Warp as any other species is.
You can repeat how awesome, invincible and unstoppable the Necron empire was at its peak, millions of years ago, until the space cows come home. Guess what? Does nothing to change the fact that the Necrons still went under, despite all their vast amounts of ungodly might and magicks. Nor does it change the fact that old Necron empire at their peak =/= the current broken, husked and declining leftovers in today's setting.
The vast majority of the Necron population exist as near-mindless automatons. It is speculated that any number of copies of a given Warrior may be active at any given time, simply by inloading copies of what passes for its personality engram into new Necrodermis bodies, which is something the Necrons seem to have no shortage of.
Their automatons pale to the greenskin numbers, and each time the data is "copied and burned", as it were, to a new body, the quality of that data declines. The Orks would re-bury them in their tombs through sheer weight of numbers, and have thrived and grown over the millenia.
As hardy as Orks are, Necrons can live in a far greater variety of environments, including most of those that would kill Orks outright (like airless voids). There is a comparatively-narrow band of worlds on which Orks could be found... there is no such practical limitation for Necrons.
Er, nope. Orks are either infested or present in more zones of the known galaxy (and evidence suggests they're also present beyond the Milky Way) than any other known lifeform. They've shown no difficulty whatsoever in being able to migrate around the stars. Either way; it's superfluous to the hypothetical battle. Once gathered, they would control enough planets and air space to not ever worry about airless voids and otherwise "Necron-only" zones. They'd either be rooted out and destroyed eventually, or the Orks would simply laugh at their cowardice, and be on their way stomping around the galaxy looking for better fights.
Necrons can snipe targets from the next galaxy over, or even farther, should they desire it. The Tachyon Arrow, for example, is one such weapon. According to its lore. "Such a weapon has near-infinite range, and is able to penetrate almost any form of armour, including that of Titans." This weapon, by the way, is carried on a forearm-mounted gauntlet.
Right. Snipe all the grains of sand you want. It won't stop the sandstorm from hitting. Unless you're going to try and argue that the Necrons have enough Tachyon Arrows to take out the entire galaxy's worth of Orks? In which case one has to ask why everyone and everything other than the Necrons aren't dead by now...
Ashiraya wrote: I am not sure where you get this from. It is said that united they would defeat all opposition... are you sure it does not refer to all current opposition rather than all potential opposition? The current opposition is not only infighting, but the factions that are infighting are themselves scattered.
I don't think you understand the premis of the thread, or the quotes from the fluff. The hypothetical situation is that all of the Orks in the entire galaxy are united into one army. That means not scattered, not infighting, but all focused onto another enemy - in this case the Necrons. As for the fluff, "all opposition" means exactly that; all opposition. You're confusing the situation with "current" vs "potential" yadda yadda... they're Orks, opposition is opposition - it's everyone else in the galaxy, whether they're united or not, the Orks will fight them. The fact that we know the united Orks would crush all the other "current" factions, as they are now, means that it's pretty straightforward to know that they could handle just one of them united. Again, pretty clear cut, the former feat outweighs the latter one... several times over.
You can repeat how awesome, invincible and unstoppable the Necron empire was at its peak, millions of years ago, until the space cows come home. Guess what? Does nothing to change the fact that the Necrons still went under, despite all their vast amounts of ungodly might and magicks. Nor does it change the fact that old Necron empire at their peak =/= the current broken, husked and declining leftovers in today's setting.
Go under? They chose to go under. It wasn't like they got knocked the feth out, they were like, "You know what? We just fought two wars against 2 different sets of gods, on a scale this galaxy has never before seen and never will see again. It's fethin' Miller time."
The Eldar self-destructed and the Orks appear to have devolved. As for their technology? The difference between the Necrons of 40K and the Necrons of -60000K is availability and production time. Most of the weapons the Necrons had in the War of Heaven are still in their hands, unlike the wonders of Mankind from the DAoT. That the Necrons themselves are fewer now than they were then... so what? There's still an unknown number of Tomb Worlds and, as we've seen in their fluff, almost any world in the galaxy might be a Necron Tomb World.
Heard it said more eloquently by many others before, yet still unable to comprehend that Games Workshop have stated categorically that Orks win.
Fact, end of discussion. No rules lawyering or whining about phasing in and out of reality or super tachyon star destoyer pistol gubbinz.
Necrons lose because they are frankly a bit naff, robo zombie gak bolted onto 40k to give people who can't play with space marines, and win, something easy to paint and feel smug about when they cake walk yet another game.
Customer: "I'm tired of all the ork players beating me up on the table with my Marines, and all this fiddly painting business is sooooo boooooring, have you got something that's a bit easier?"
GW: "Hmmmm, what about indestructible terminator type thingies. Even if you utterly feth up and get your army shot to ribbons, they can reanimate and let you have another go"
Customer: "That sounds ok, are they hard to play with?"
GW: "Well, you still have to turn up and deploy, but you'll win."
Customer: "I dunno, sounds hard"
GW: "You can paint them with a spray can of leadbelcher"
Customer: "Sold!"
Ashiraya wrote: Forge World's official website entry for Orks says this.
Orks occupy more of the galaxy than any other single race and were they unified they would soon crush all opposition. However, the Ork's passion for violence is so unquenchable that they spend most of their time warring amongst themselves.
Aside from the obvious meaning of the passage, consider another factor. Orks, if united, would crush all opposition... Wouldn't this mean all current opposition? The Necron race is extremely fragmented, and while they do not infight as much as the Orks, they are nonetheless far from a united empire and various dynasties - ranging from large to tiny - form the Necron race. If the Orks united right now and faced the fragmented Necron empire, victory for the Orks is entire plausible as the passage says. However, if the Necrons too are united, then it radically changes the odds.
It's still pretty clear cut. United Orks would wipe the entire galaxy of all oppositon. Imperium of Man, Mechanicus, Astartes, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Chaos, Necrons, Tyranids... everyone. That feat alone outweighs facing just one other faction, united or not. The only one that could give united Orks a run for their money would be all the combined Tyranid Hive Fleets, but they'd still lose to the green tide eventually.
You remind me of Jon Snow...
If Orks united, yes, they would sweep all opposition under the rug - but so would Necrons. If worst came to worst, the Necrons would just go back in time repeatedly until they had finally defeated the Orks completely. On top of this is the fact that if all of the Necrons united, they would wield an army the size of hundreds of WAAAAAAGHS!!! with ten times the technological acumen, far more discipline, far more skill, far superior weaponry, and far more intelligent leadership. Also NECRON SPACE SUPERIORITY. If you have the best fleets in existence, you don't need to send forces down to planets; you just bomb the gak out of them. Every Ork fleet would be swept away like wheat before a scythe, and their planets would be covered in enough plasma or bioweapons to render any Ork planet-side resistence moot.
I would like to refer you to the quote from Wyzilla in my signature
Heard it said more eloquently by many others before, yet still unable to comprehend that Games Workshop have stated categorically that Orks win.
Fact, end of discussion. No rules lawyering or whining about phasing in and out of reality or super tachyon star destoyer pistol gubbinz.
Necrons lose because they are frankly a bit naff, robo zombie gak bolted onto 40k to give people who can't play with space marines, and win, something easy to paint and feel smug about when they cake walk yet another game.
Customer: "I'm tired of all the ork players beating me up on the table with my Marines, and all this fiddly painting business is sooooo boooooring, have you got something that's a bit easier?"
GW: "Hmmmm, what about indestructible terminator type thingies. Even if you utterly feth up and get your army shot to ribbons, they can reanimate and let you have another go"
Customer: "That sounds ok, are they hard to play with?"
GW: "Well, you still have to turn up and deploy, but you'll win."
Customer: "I dunno, sounds hard"
GW: "You can paint them with a spray can of leadbelcher"
Customer: "Sold!"
We know you're an Ork fanboy, based on your posting-tag, but some people actually just like fluff for armies they don't play.
After all, Orks are the army for people who can't win with Space Marines because they can't field enough of them to survive walking face-first into a gunline across an open table
Customer: "I'm tired of all the Sisters players beating me up on the table with my Marines, and all this fiddly painting business is sooooo boooooring, have you got something that's a bit easier?"
GW: "Hmmmm, what about a Mad Max horde of drunken English soccer hooligans? Even if you utterly feth up and get your army shot to ribbons, they have so many models on the table that some are eventually going to get into range"
Customer: "That sounds ok, are they hard to play with?"
GW: "Well, you still have to turn up and deploy, but you'll win."
Customer: "I dunno, sounds hard"
GW: "You can paint them with a spray can of grass green"
Customer: "Sold!"
I'll help clarify some mistakes you made which might elevate the Orks in your opinion.
Gork and Mork are already warp gods. Unlike other races with all their complicated ambitions and fears, the Orks are united heart and soul in their simplistic belief of Gork and Mork. The Ork race doesn't suffer from rampant individualism, petty ambitions, or philosophical schisms. Because of this the fluff states that Gork and Mork are sheer powerhouses in the Warp that shrug off hits from the other chaos lords with a laugh and simply continue on doing their thing. It's only recently that they seem to be showing an interest in the events happening in real space. Currently Ghazzy is their puppet and they have him moving from one Waaagh! to the next Waaaagh! to boost up the beacon and drive the conflict to perpetual levels like he has going at Armegeddon. Their intentions were recently made clear to Ghazzy. They want him to raise the Waaaagh! energy high enough for both Gork and Mork to rip themselves out of the Warp and enter real space so that they can unite the Orks and begin Ragnarork. The Galaxy is saturated with enough Orks that they don't need to be united for there to be enough Waaagh! energy for Gork and Mork to appear and from there they will unite the rest. So a united Ork race, which this thread theorizes, would already have Gork and Mork out in realspace.
Psienesis wrote: We know you're an Ork fanboy, based on your posting-tag, but some people actually just like fluff for armies they don't play.
After all, Orks are the army for people who can't win with Space Marines because they can't field enough of them to survive walking face-first into a gunline across an open table
Customer: "I'm tired of all the Sisters players beating me up on the table with my Marines, and all this fiddly painting business is sooooo boooooring, have you got something that's a bit easier?"
GW: "Hmmmm, what about a Mad Max horde of drunken English soccer hooligans? Even if you utterly feth up and get your army shot to ribbons, they have so many models on the table that some are eventually going to get into range"
Customer: "That sounds ok, are they hard to play with?"
GW: "Well, you still have to turn up and deploy, but you'll win."
Customer: "I dunno, sounds hard"
GW: "You can paint them with a spray can of grass green"
Customer: "Sold!"
That doesn't even make sense.
Necrons are widely known for being the army for people, who don't like other people. But do like to get a secret semi when they win in a FLGS.
Ok I see your point but it's all narrowed down to just the two. The other races have some strong collective ideals and beliefs that have created very solid Chaos Gods but they are also so fractious and individualistic with their ambitions and fears that these races all gives constant rise to all manner of smaller daemons. The Chaos gods don't enjoy the same level of sheer unification in their belief on the scale Orks provide to their two gods.
I'll help clarify some mistakes you made which might elevate the Orks in your opinion.
Gork and Mork are already warp gods. Unlike other races with all their complicated ambitions and fears, the Orks are united heart and soul in their simplistic belief of Gork and Mork. The Ork race doesn't suffer from rampant individualism, petty ambitions, or philosophical schisms. Because of this the fluff states that Gork and Mork are sheer powerhouses in the Warp that shrug off hits from the other chaos lords with a laugh and simply continue on doing their thing. It's only recently that they seem to be showing an interest in the events happening in real space. Currently Ghazzy is their puppet and they have him moving from one Waaagh! to the next Waaaagh! to boost up the beacon and drive the conflict to perpetual levels like he has going at Armegeddon. Their intentions were recently made clear to Ghazzy. They want him to raise the Waaaagh! energy high enough for both Gork and Mork to rip themselves out of the Warp and enter real space so that they can unite the Orks and begin Ragnarork. The Galaxy is saturated with enough Orks that they don't need to be united for there to be enough Waaagh! energy for Gork and Mork to appear and from there they will unite the rest. So a united Ork race, which this thread theorizes, would already have Gork and Mork out in realspace.
Okay, so what you're saying is that Orks basically have really big C'tan on their side in the scenario we're debating. The only Necron counter for this would be if the Necrons decided to use those pesky little Gods they have, what are they called, again? Oh, yes, C'tan Shards! Necrons have boatloads of 'em, even if they are risky to deploy. And, if the C'tan get beaten, the 'Crons can just go back in time to stop the Orks from uniting in the first place.
Also, thanks for that little bit of fluff, I'd never heard that before. It's good to know that the Chaos Gods aren't the only Warp Gods out there that aren't complete pushovers.
Yeah I too have conceded that should the Necrons decide to unshackle the C'tan, they would be the counter to Gork and Mork and could send em back to the Warp but it would be a pretty awesome sight with clashes and hits equaling the power of multiple supernovas on each impact. A heavy price for the Necrons to pay and not a light decision but we know if faced with annihalation the Necrons would make the decision.
And yes, killing Ghazzy today would stop The Great Waaaagh!. It's not easy though because he really is being watched over by Gork and Mork. So far each time someone or something has gotten close to killing Ghazzy he just suddenly dissappears in a green flash of energy and whisked off through the Warp to safety Deus Ex Machina style....the lucky git... But Yarrick is the one and only living organism atm who seems to understand how serious of a threat Ghazzy is (he spent time as Ghazzy's prisoner sometime after the first invasion and came to understand the gist of what Ghazzy is).
ProwlerPC wrote: Yeah I too have conceded that should the Necrons decide to unshackle the C'tan, they would be the counter to Gork and Mork and could send em back to the Warp but it would be a pretty awesome sight with clashes and hits equaling the power of multiple supernovas on each impact. A heavy price for the Necrons to pay and not a light decision but we know if faced with annihalation the Necrons would make the decision.
And yes, killing Ghazzy today would stop The Great Waaaagh!. It's not easy though because he really is being watched over by Gork and Mork. So far each time someone or something has gotten close to killing Ghazzy he just suddenly dissappears in a green flash of energy and whisked off through the Warp to safety Deus Ex Machina style....the lucky git... But Yarrick is the one and only living organism atm who seems to understand how serious of a threat Ghazzy is (he spent time as Ghazzy's prisoner sometime after the first invasion and came to understand the gist of what Ghazzy is).
I'm guessing that the Necrons would just have to go back in time to when Ghazzy wasn't even a Warlord yet, and off him then.
Also, wouldn't the Eldar be trying desperately to stop Ghazzy (Farseers, and all that)?
Also, sorry about the condescending voice in my last post. I just re-read it, and I came off as a total prick.
Messing with Ghazzy's mind won't help anything. He stopped being himself waaaaay back on Urk when he was just a normal Boy who got his head shot to pulp from a heavy bolter and 'fixed' back up by Mad Dok Grot. From that day forward he was the puppet of Gork and Mork with massive headaches as they bellow their will into his brain. It drives him mad with pain when this happens running back and forth banging his head on walls no longer able to perceive his surroundings as Gork and Mork force their will on him. And again if threatened in such a way they snatch him from real space and away from the danger. 'Prophet of Gork and Mork' isn't just a title used for effect, it's the real thing.
Getting him on Urk while he was just a Boy and unnoticed by the Gork and Mork would do it. Or also killing Mad Dok Grotsnik back on Urk before he can 'fix' Ghazzy would also do it. It'll take some investigating to find it since Urk no longer exists. It's star and the system are gone, Ghazzy and the Urk Orks got off the planet just in time thanks to a huge Space Hulk Gork and Mork sent them and whisked them away in.
ProwlerPC wrote: Messing with Ghazzy's mind won't help anything. He stopped being himself waaaaay back on Urk when he was just a normal Boy who got his head shot to pulp from a heavy bolter and 'fixed' back up by Mad Dok Grot. From that day forward he was the puppet of Gork and Mork with massive headaches as they bellow their will into his brain. It drives him mad with pain when this happens running back and forth banging his head on walls no longer able to perceive his surroundings as Gork and Mork force their will on him. And again if threatened in such a way they snatch him from real space and away from the danger. 'Prophet of Gork and Mork' isn't just a title used for effect, it's the real thing.
Then go back in time and just start exterminating Ork Clanz, it would weaken the WAAAAGH!!! energy, and thereby weaken Gork and Mork, allowing for C'tan to have more of a fighting chance.
Also, there is a possibility for more C'tan to be out there, as only one group was discovered by the Necrontyr, so, hypothetically, the Necrons could just seek these bad boys out, and use them on top of their C'tan Shards without allowing themselves to be enslaved again.
Not saying this would happen but; if Orks ever manage to loot that tech they would figure it out in their Orky way and appropriately name the entire thing to "Da Red Buttin".
All this time travel hooey is total squig flops. If they could do it, they would have done it already, (in the future or somefing) therefore Ghazgkull doesn't exist, or the ork race is already annihilated and the Galaxy is a tomb.
Seeing as it's not, the Necrons didn't do it, therefore Orks win.
All this time travel hooey is total squig flops. If they could do it, they would have done it already, (in the future or somefing) therefore Ghazgkull doesn't exist, or the ork race is already annihilated and the Galaxy is a tomb.
Seeing as it's not, the Necrons didn't do it, therefore Orks win.
Iz Logikal know wots.
Not at all. It is possible the Necrons will never actually unite successfully. The premise is that both factions are united. The Necron who holds the timetravel tech currently has no interest in sharing it, but I have never seen any Ork arguments be influenced by whether the Ork who holds the technology (say, Ghazghkull's friends with the tellyportas) wants to share it.
Spoiler:
PhillyT wrote: This is a cool thought experiment, but one that has so many things that obstruct real discussion. It will come down to personal bias.
With the benefit of hindsight, I can say you hit the spot pretty neatly...
All this time travel hooey is total squig flops. If they could do it, they would have done it already, (in the future or somefing) therefore Ghazgkull doesn't exist, or the ork race is already annihilated and the Galaxy is a tomb.
Seeing as it's not, the Necrons didn't do it, therefore Orks win.
Iz Logikal know wots.
Okay, now a few problems.
1.) Orks will never actually unite, it will always be a bunch of disparate WAAAAGHS!!! and Empires. Gork and Mork are just surmounting this through Gazzy jumping all over the Galaxy creating new WAAAGHS!!!, this is basically an alternate dimension we're talking about here
2.) Necrons will never unite, they will always be too deeply divided, with different Dynasties holding power, but never working together for long periods of time.
This whole discussion is basically in an alternate-universe of 40k, wherein prerequisites are met for each of these species to unite wholesale (somehow), and (somehow) come into a total war style conflict. And, seeing as how the Necrons have Fleets that are ten times the might of Ork Fleets (friggin' seriously, even the Tau fleets are far superior to Ork Fleets), the Necrons would win through Void Superiority, which, for necrodermis death machines, is all that really matters.
I recall there was a story where even the Orks seemed to agree that the Tau ships were incredibly killy. Particularly the local fleet's flagship. So instead of taking it head on they go after a smaller Tau ship, somehow figure out the docking codes and dock with the fleet's supply station. Once the flagship ran out of supplies they went after it and took possession of it after killing everything inside. It got renamed Tau Killa. I truly don't think the Orks mind if their opponants are more tech advanced then they are, in fact I think they are thrilled by it.
@ashiriya - Yes lol, Orky mishaps with such a device might lead to interesting results. 4 out of 6 chance it'll work as intended, 1 out of 6 chance it'll mishap not only send the whole Ork race back to their ancestor's time but also blow them all up ridding the glalaxy of Orks almost as soon as they are created (wouldn't that be a mind feth for the Old Ones!), and a 1 in 6 chance in a crit yay, sends the whole Ork race into the future to reinforce the uncountable number of Orks there and tipping the scales in their favour to take over the galaxy. The present day races think they won and finally got rid of Orks for good never realizing that in the future a galaxy overfilled with Orks is waiting for them to " 'ave anuver go".
ProwlerPC wrote: I can't refute that point. I have to agree that passage only puts the Orks in a theoretical position while the others are assumed to be in current state. I don't want to fall into the logical fallacy of 'the lack of evidence equals evidence' but I kind of want to assume that the authors would state in some way that 'should the Necron dynasties ever unite they would clean the galaxy of squatters' or something to that effect. I'll be the first to say that this wouldn't hold ground in a strict court of law but like a shrewd lawyer before a jury I figure I'd toss that bit on the table for the audience nonetheless.
Ashiraya wrote: Given the sheer power they were throwing around in the War in Heaven, I do not think they need to actually state it.
They do.
Ask and you shall receive.
Codex Necrons wrote:Only one hope can now preserve the other races from the Necrons' implacable advance, from the endless legions of silent and deathless warriors rising from long-forgotten tombs. If the Necrons can be prevented from waking to their full glory, if the scattered Tomb Worlds can be prevented from unifying, then there is a chance of survival. If not, then the great powers of the galaxy will surely fall, and the Necrons shall rule supreme for eternity.
ProwlerPC wrote: I can't refute that point. I have to agree that passage only puts the Orks in a theoretical position while the others are assumed to be in current state. I don't want to fall into the logical fallacy of 'the lack of evidence equals evidence' but I kind of want to assume that the authors would state in some way that 'should the Necron dynasties ever unite they would clean the galaxy of squatters' or something to that effect. I'll be the first to say that this wouldn't hold ground in a strict court of law but like a shrewd lawyer before a jury I figure I'd toss that bit on the table for the audience nonetheless.
Ashiraya wrote: Given the sheer power they were throwing around in the War in Heaven, I do not think they need to actually state it.
They do.
Ask and you shall receive.
Codex Necrons wrote:Only one hope can now preserve the other races from the Necrons' implacable advance, from the endless legions of silent and deathless warriors rising from long-forgotten tombs. If the Necrons can be prevented from waking to their full glory, if the scattered Tomb Worlds can be prevented from unifying, then there is a chance of survival. If not, then the great powers of the galaxy will surely fall, and the Necrons shall rule supreme for eternity.
Thanks for the quote.
So, can we assume that both 'they would crush everyone if they united' quotes cancel out each other, and instead just look at it from a logical basis?
I would like to make another point again. One that is being ignored every time it is brought up.
Necrons only exist in the Milky Way.
Orks have colonised the Universe. Apart from Tyranids, they are the only race to exist outside of this one Galaxy. There are Billions of Galaxies, containing possibly Trillions of Orks.
There is no way, even with every fancy gizmo in the universe and pseudo God like powers, that the Necrons could even begin to touch that.
Orks win.
r_squared wrote: I would like to make another point again. One that is being ignored every time it is brought up.
Necrons only exist in the Milky Way.
Orks have colonised the Universe. Apart from Tyranids, they are the only race to exist outside of this one Galaxy. There are Billions of Galaxies, containing possibly Trillions of Orks.
There is no way, even with every fancy gizmo in the universe and pseudo God like powers, that the Necrons could even begin to touch that.
Orks win.
Orks have never actually been said to exist outside the galaxy to my knowledge.
And no, the probe fluff you're thinking of doesn't say that
ProwlerPC wrote: I can't refute that point. I have to agree that passage only puts the Orks in a theoretical position while the others are assumed to be in current state. I don't want to fall into the logical fallacy of 'the lack of evidence equals evidence' but I kind of want to assume that the authors would state in some way that 'should the Necron dynasties ever unite they would clean the galaxy of squatters' or something to that effect. I'll be the first to say that this wouldn't hold ground in a strict court of law but like a shrewd lawyer before a jury I figure I'd toss that bit on the table for the audience nonetheless.
Ashiraya wrote: Given the sheer power they were throwing around in the War in Heaven, I do not think they need to actually state it.
They do.
Ask and you shall receive.
Codex Necrons wrote:Only one hope can now preserve the other races from the Necrons' implacable advance, from the endless legions of silent and deathless warriors rising from long-forgotten tombs. If the Necrons can be prevented from waking to their full glory, if the scattered Tomb Worlds can be prevented from unifying, then there is a chance of survival. If not, then the great powers of the galaxy will surely fall, and the Necrons shall rule supreme for eternity.
Thanks for the quote.
So, can we assume that both 'they would crush everyone if they united' quotes cancel out each other, and instead just look at it from a logical basis?
Makes sense, though at this point it's almost an "Immovable object - Unstoppable force" debate.
r_squared wrote: I would like to make another point again. One that is being ignored every time it is brought up.
Necrons only exist in the Milky Way.
Orks have colonised the Universe. Apart from Tyranids, they are the only race to exist outside of this one Galaxy. There are Billions of Galaxies, containing possibly Trillions of Orks.
There is no way, even with every fancy gizmo in the universe and pseudo God like powers, that the Necrons could even begin to touch that.
Orks win.
No, you're mis-reading or mis-remembering what has been said about Ork expansion.
What has been said (ages and ages ago) is that the AdMech sent an unmanned probe beyond the edge of the Milky Way and found Orky radio signals there. All this means is that the Orks have also gone past the edge of the Galaxy (as have the Necrons, as the Silent King did this).
Since the Tyranids have totally consumed at least 12 other galaxies, this would indicate that an entire Galaxy full of Orks was not capable of stopping the Hive Mind... which puts to rest the "united, the Orks can crush anyone!", because in this scenario it was all the Orks in the galaxy versus the Tyranids Hive Fleets... and the Orks apparently lost. Twelve times.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Wait, are you admitting/saying all twelve of those were in fact 100% infested with orks?
Admitting? No, I'm taking the absurd claim that the Orks have populated the entire universe to posit that, even if this were true, an entire galaxy of Orks failed to stop the Tyranids (12 times).
Given that Tyranids actively avoid known Tomb Worlds, this does not bode well for the Orks.
Psienesis wrote: Since the Tyranids have totally consumed at least 12 other galaxies, this would indicate that an entire Galaxy full of Orks was not capable of stopping the Hive Mind... which puts to rest the "united, the Orks can crush anyone!", because in this scenario it was all the Orks in the galaxy versus the Tyranids Hive Fleets... and the Orks apparently lost. Twelve times.
Let's stay focused on what we do know and what's been said about this galaxy. Conjecture to this degree is hardly relevant, or helpful, to the debate here. We have no reason to believe the Orks have 100% infested all other galaxies, that's crazy. We have evidence to suggest that Orks exist outside the Milky Way. That's it. Moreover, we have no reason to assume that the galaxies consumed by the Tyranids are all the same ones with lots of Orks in them. There's plenty, and I mean plenty, of galaxies out there for the Tyranids to eat without ever coming into contact with Orks, even if they're extremely widespread.
Psienesis wrote: Since the Tyranids have totally consumed at least 12 other galaxies, this would indicate that an entire Galaxy full of Orks was not capable of stopping the Hive Mind... which puts to rest the "united, the Orks can crush anyone!", because in this scenario it was all the Orks in the galaxy versus the Tyranids Hive Fleets... and the Orks apparently lost. Twelve times.
Let's stay focused on what we do know and what's been said about this galaxy. Conjecture to this degree is hardly relevant, or helpful, to the debate here. We have no reason to believe the Orks have 100% infested all other galaxies, that's crazy. We have evidence to suggest that Orks exist outside the Milky Way. That's it. Moreover, we have no reason to assume that the galaxies consumed by the Tyranids are all the same ones with lots of Orks in them. There's plenty, and I mean plenty, of galaxies out there for the Tyranids to eat without ever coming into contact with Orks, even if they're extremely widespread.
If you read my entire post, you would see Im responding to someone who claimed that Orks have settled the entire Universe.
Very nice, ok so we got them both with confirmed apocalyptic fluff should either of them unite their races. This still remains interesting. I'm not ready to jump on the bandwagon that Orks are inhabiting every neighbouring galaxy quite yet. Both Immaterium and the Psykic races of the Milky Way are creations of the Old Ones. Despite one description convincing us the Warp is unfathomably mutable we also have descriptions that within the Warp it has finite borders and regions. While it doesn't come out and say it I feel the theory that the Immaterium/Warp is uniwue to the Milky Way is the most believable. If there are Ork beyond the Milky Way they wouldn't benefit from the Waaaagh!, no beacon to follow, no weirdboyz, and if correct then even their dakka wouldn't work no matter how positive they believe in it. They'd become feral. Tyranids wiped out 12 galaxies beforehand? Where did this number come from? Is this something like Failbaddon's '12 victories' (I fear that boy will experience an eternity of neverending 'victories' thanks to the whime of his puppetmasters.
If the Warp were unique to the Milky Way, the Hive Mind would be unable to exist within it as a psychic entity, since the Hive Mind is itself extragalactic.
Whoever claimed the orks have hold of every other galaxy I think is false. Now I do believe orks are in other galaxies however. I believe there are so many orks tt if every ork FROM other galaxies as well can to the milky way, that is where the "orks would take over" comes from
Tyranids wiped out 12 galaxies beforehand? Where did this number come from? Is this something like Failbaddon's '12 victories' (I fear that boy will experience an eternity of neverending 'victories' thanks to the whime of his puppetmasters.
Psienesis is correct. That Tyranids have successfully devoured many galaxies before they reached the Milky Way has been an established part of the setting for as long as I have known of it, and more.
If you read my entire post, you would see Im responding to someone who claimed that Orks have settled the entire Universe.
I did read it. I followed the whole tangent, got as far as your "Tyranids ate 12 galaxies therefore Tyranids can wipe out 12 galaxies worth of Orks" spiral and thought it was time to rein it in. I know your comment was merely a "yeah but..." counter-point to the "Orks have conquered the Universe!" notion... so yeah. Let's get back to what's relevant.
Ashiraya wrote: Psienesis is correct. That Tyranids have successfully devoured many galaxies before they reached the Milky Way has been an established part of the setting for as long as I have known of it, and more.
But we don't know what was in those galaxies. How big they were, how far apart they were, etc. Conjecture over it is useless. We do know what's in the Milky Way in the 41st Millenium. Including the fact that the Orks are present in more parts of it than anything else, and that if all the Orks within it were ever to unite, they would proceed to sweep every other faction and race away in a giant green wave of stompy, smashy goodness. If they can do that, they can beat the Necrons in a one-v-one scenario.
Anfauglir wrote: We do know what's in the Milky Way in the 41st Millenium. Including the fact that the Orks are present in more parts of it than anything else, and that if all the Orks within it were ever to unite, they would proceed to sweep every other faction and race away in a giant green wave of stompy, smashy goodness. If they can do that, they can beat the Necrons in a one-v-one scenario.
Codex Necrons wrote:Only one hope can now preserve the other races from the Necrons' implacable advance, from the endless legions of silent and deathless warriors rising from long-forgotten tombs. If the Necrons can be prevented from waking to their full glory, if the scattered Tomb Worlds can be prevented from unifying, then there is a chance of survival. If not, then the great powers of the galaxy will surely fall, and the Necrons shall rule supreme for eternity.
Which, at best, brings us back to the "unstoppable force vs. immovable object" thing. At which point you have to turn to all those things I mentioned at the beginning, and most of all what many people have been saying since the beginning. Namely, Orks will win through sheer attrition. The Necrons are outnumbered and in decline, each body they lose/teleport away the more degraded they become and the Orks gain a little more ground. Until the tombs themselves are cracked open and trashed. Meanwhile the Orks will thrive off the carnage, the tougher the fight, the more they thrive, the harder the battle the harder they fight. The more tech is thrown at them, the more toys they churn out. Then there's the psychic energy. Enough to birth Ork deities and warp (literally) reality itself in ways we have never before seen/can imagine. Then, just is case it still isn't clear, there's a whole load more of them around the corner in the next wave. Then another, and another, and another, and another, and another...
Outnumbered, yes. In decline? No. A united Necron empire would not be in decline, not at all.
each body they lose/teleport away the more degraded they become
Which doesn't affect their combat abilities in the slighest, only emotions and the like.
Indeed, the Necron codex speaks of the Necrons as numerous to the point where they may outnumber humanity. In addition, each and every Necron is a powerful warrior, and they can churn out war automata at a prodigious rate. This is all assuming that the Orks make it into planetary combat, of course, instead of being utterly destroyed in space.
Yep, Orks win.
They always do, because they live to fight. They get bigger, and tougher, and multiply more, and keep going and nicking stuff and smashing gubbinz.
The Necrons will eventually just throw their toys about, then flounce off to their tomb worlds for another long sulk.
But, this time the boyz will keep coming, and turn what's left of the tomb worlds into tinfoil hats.
Plus da boyz might not own the whole ooniverse yet, but they will. Plenty of uvva stuff to give a good kicking too.
He is just having some fun. He didn't offend anyone. If you don't like it, don't read the thread. Anyway he has a point. Technically orks do win, because orks don't ever lose, even if they all died, they'd die fighting, which is a win. So.. orks really do, in the end, regardless of any text or factual arguement from the necrons side, win.
He is just having some fun. He didn't offend anyone. If you don't like it, don't read the thread. Anyway he has a point. Technically orks do win, because orks don't ever lose, even if they all died, they'd die fighting, which is a win. So.. orks really do, in the end, regardless of any text or factual arguement from the necrons side, win.
No, that's just the most idiotic thing to ever plague 40k being re-hashed over and over, seriously, and everyone would win if orks died out and were squatted, sure as sure.
Ashiraya wrote: I am sure that once there is nothing but Ork corpses left, they will be most pleased with their victory - they died fighting, after all.
Assuming any corpses are left that is. Gauss weapons for ya.
He is just having some fun. He didn't offend anyone. If you don't like it, don't read the thread. Anyway he has a point. Technically orks do win, because orks don't ever lose, even if they all died, they'd die fighting, which is a win. So.. orks really do, in the end, regardless of any text or factual arguement from the necrons side, win.
Eh, in that train of thought, the Wardcrom codex provides one incident the Orks definitely did not win as in they didn't die fighting, they didn't run away to fight another day, nor did they win a fight.
Said incident involves one ork getting too curious for his own good and pops open the containment chamber of a "gifted" Necron doomsday ark to see how it works. Breaching said containment chamber results in the entire planet and all the orks on it getting vaporized. Doesn't meet the criteria for the Ork definition of a win. So no, the orks don't always win and there are plenty of ways to deny orks a victory in any sense of the word. Just takes a little creativity.
Eh, in that train of thought, the Wardcrom codex provides one incident the Orks definitely did not win as in they didn't die fighting, they didn't run away to fight another day, nor did they win a fight.
Said incident involves one ork getting too curious for his own good and pops open the containment chamber of a "gifted" Necron doomsday ark to see how it works. Breaching said containment chamber results in the entire planet and all the orks on it getting vaporized. Doesn't meet the criteria for the Ork definition of a win. So no, the orks don't always win and there are plenty of ways to deny orks a victory in any sense of the word. Just takes a little creativity.
Also, if the Orks die fleeing (being run down) or die by being blown up by artillery, does it count as dying fighting?
He is just having some fun. He didn't offend anyone. If you don't like it, don't read the thread. Anyway he has a point. Technically orks do win, because orks don't ever lose, even if they all died, they'd die fighting, which is a win. So.. orks really do, in the end, regardless of any text or factual arguement from the necrons side, win.
Eh, in that train of thought, the Wardcrom codex provides one incident the Orks definitely did not win as in they didn't die fighting, they didn't run away to fight another day, nor did they win a fight.
Said incident involves one ork getting too curious for his own good and pops open the containment chamber of a "gifted" Necron doomsday ark to see how it works. Breaching said containment chamber results in the entire planet and all the orks on it getting vaporized. Doesn't meet the criteria for the Ork definition of a win. So no, the orks don't always win and there are plenty of ways to deny orks a victory in any sense of the word. Just takes a little creativity.
When it came from a warddex, it doesn't count. :/ but I see what you're saying. This has just always been the ork way, the whole we never lose thing.
Bobthehero
Do you even... Play 40k? If so, you'd know your statement is so horribly wrong. They don't "lose like any other army" they just don't lose as stated before.. wow haha
It does, since y'know, there's no canon in 40k, and its always up to the individual, hell I could say that in my view, orks are just a lie and don't exist.
Bobthehero wrote: It does, since y'know, there's no canon in 40k, and its always up to the individual, hell I could say that in my view, orks are just a lie and don't exist.
But then again, the IG needs a punching bag, too.
THATS what you play? I wish I could shake your hand for the countless baneblades and such you guys bring to the battlefield to help my orks waste some of their excess rokkits. Thank you. But.. you guys are the 40k punching bag.. you don't win.. any tournies.. oh, but even orks do
What do tourneys even have to do with fluff? 'Sides, I don't care for tourney at all. If you want someone to stroke your ego, you can go somewhere else.
Bobthehero wrote: What do tourneys even have to do with fluff? 'Sides, I don't care for tourney at all. If you want someone to stroke your ego, you can go somewhere else.
Or you can. Get back to the discussion at hand, it would obviously be a good fight. I won't deny that. My money is still on orks. Not because I don't think the necrons have the means to take on the orks, they most certainly have that and beyond, but because orks grow and adapt to what they need to handle. Get bigger and stronger, even though tabletop doesn't show the stronger part very well. Necrons are very smart, but as someone stated a few pages back, one necron for every however many orks would be enough. There are just so dang many of the buggers
If the Orks are "winning" then you just aren't trying hard enough.
A snaggletoothed old Loota, Badscragg reckoned he’d more or less seen it all. But he’d never witnessed carnage like this. The Chaos boyz weren’t just killing the Orks, they were ripping them to bits. Ork throats were torn out by jagged fangs, the gushing blood drunk down in great draughts. Lashing tentacles tore off greenskin limbs and stuffed them into gaping maws. Skin was flayed, bones broken, and Ork guts ripped out by the fistful. Zog this, thought Badscragg, beginning to sidle slowly away from the fight. Even Orks had their limits, and this surpassed his. Suddenly, the Loota was plunged into shadow, choking on the reeking stink of sulphur. Badscragg looked up in sudden horror as something truly monstrous descended upon him, and then everything turned to blood and pain.
Ugh, Pain4Pleasure please stop. You're making the rest of us Orks look ridiculous with your try-hard posts. As awesome as Orks are, I don't see them ever outright winning against a unified Necron front in their prime, at best its a stalemate which is exactly what an Ork wants anyways, a never-ending battle where a boy can get his mettle tested.
I rank Orks roughly upper-middle tier regarding power rankings in terms of races, but Necrons have already been established as one of the top tier guys given that they managed to even take down the C'tan in their prime (albeit through backstabbing).
Grimskul wrote: Ugh, Pain4Pleasure please stop. You're making the rest of us Orks look ridiculous with your try-hard posts. As awesome as Orks are, I don't see them ever outright winning against a unified Necron front in their prime, at best its a stalemate which is exactly what an Ork wants anyways, a never-ending battle where a boy can get his mettle tested.
I rank Orks roughly upper-middle tier regarding power rankings in terms of races, but Necrons have already been established as one of the top tier guys given that they managed to even take down the C'tan in their prime (albeit through backstabbing).
Then start defending orks maybe?
Don't come on here just to insult me. It's not needed.
Grimskul wrote: Ugh, Pain4Pleasure please stop. You're making the rest of us Orks look ridiculous with your try-hard posts. As awesome as Orks are, I don't see them ever outright winning against a unified Necron front in their prime, at best its a stalemate which is exactly what an Ork wants anyways, a never-ending battle where a boy can get his mettle tested.
I rank Orks roughly upper-middle tier regarding power rankings in terms of races, but Necrons have already been established as one of the top tier guys given that they managed to even take down the C'tan in their prime (albeit through backstabbing).
Then start defending orks maybe? Don't come on here just to insult me. It's not needed.
Well that's the thing, by and large everything has been placed on the table.
Necron advantages:
Inertia-less drives and Dolmen Gates (huge advantage in space) Ability to time travel/divination via astromancy as seen through Orikan the Diviner Ability to repair and phase out most tech which mitigates the mass salvaging/looting that Orks are typically capable of doing against enemy forces Effectively suffers no morale issues (important to note the mental degradation of some of the Necron Overlords/Lords who awoke incomplete or damaged) Powerful base weaponry like gauss and tesla makes them dominate on an Ork to Necron basis.
Ork advantages:
Numbers beyond counting Psykers Has a mobile self-sustaining ecosystem via spores which produce grots, squigs, etc. thereby requiring extensive cleansing to eliminate threat and repopulation Get progressively stronger/bigger the longer and tougher the fight against the enemy is As mentioned previously, their salvaging ability means even wrecked vehicles can quickly be fixed and given a new lick of paint to be thrown into action Unorthodox methods and the sheer variety of tactics regarding the different klans Generally tech-wise they are on the lower end of the spectrum with exceptions where certain Meks can go into eldar/necron tech level areas with super-weapons but they are rarely seen on a common basis given the Ork disposition for the biggest ladz (i.e. Flash Gitz) to hoard all the good dakka for themselves.
From a galaxy wide point of view it honestly seems pretty hard to come to an absolute consensus as the examples where they do encounter one another are often too vague to be the basis for who would ultimately win in the big mosh pit fight, especially since they are always on a pretty small scale compared to most. It's possible that against such a powerful foe like Necrons that the Orks (if united) would adapt to them after being pushed back enough with guys like Wazzdakka potentially countering their mobility by finishing his dream of an interstellar warp-highway that lets him and his speed freaks hop from planet to planet. Taking it at face value though, the Necrons have too many tech advantages for the Orks to overcome, at least initially. The Necrons wouldn't outright wipe out the Orks but the Orks would end up being contained similar to how they were during the age of the Eldar.
Query: How exactly does this Ork spore method work in relation to getting larger the more they fight?
I mean, if an Ork is killed, they can't get bigger as they've just been atomised by a gauss blast?
The spores would start as regular sized Orks, as they had done little fighting. Only survivors get bigger, and to survive, they need to win a fight or run from one. Running from a fight brings in the question of how orky this Ork is, and probably doesn't contribute to the growth. Losing a fight/dying would kill the Ork and then you are left with a dead Ork. Not a big one.
I don't know, people keep citing that Orks would keep getting bigger, but I can't see how. If they all attack the Necrons, they get slaughtered at pitched battle, either in space or charging a firing line of Necrons.
In these situations, how can the growth occur? They are either dead, and therefore dead, or fleeing, so didn't really fight. And their spores don't get bigger, as the spores didn't fight.
And that is assuming that the spores aren't atomised by gauss weapons.
It's quite simple.
Da boyz warm up for the Necrons by beating an easy opponent like Imperial Guard wotsits to deth wiv their choppas making them all uge and warty.
Once they've finished wiv all the runty squishy oomans, Then they go after the tin 'eads.
Like a galactic wide version of Headwoppas Killchoppa.
Plus they now have a load of scrap Baneblade tank gubbinz to make into proppa tank wotsits.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry, I forgot to add. Orks Win.
r_squared wrote: It's quite simple.
Da boyz warm up for the Necrons by beating an easy opponent like Imperial Guard wotsits to deth wiv their choppas making them all uge and warty.
Once they've finished wiv all the runty squishy oomans, Then they go after the tin 'eads.
Like a galactic wide version of Headwoppas Killchoppa.
Plus they now have a load of scrap Baneblade tank gubbinz to make into proppa tank wotsits.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry, I forgot to add. Orks Win.
Ah, but this is Orks vs Necrons. No other factions here. Otherwise a Necron supporter could state that they can MSS Space Marines to fight for them.
No giant Orks or looted BEHNBLADES here.
So, I say again, the whole growing to be huge would be a null factor here unless regular sized Orks won an engagement, and the survivors got bigger.
And the odds of surviving that engagement, particularly in space where no krumpin' can occur, are close to nil.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Query: How exactly does this Ork spore method work in relation to getting larger the more they fight?
I mean, if an Ork is killed, they can't get bigger as they've just been atomised by a gauss blast?
The spores would start as regular sized Orks, as they had done little fighting. Only survivors get bigger, and to survive, they need to win a fight or run from one. Running from a fight brings in the question of how orky this Ork is, and probably doesn't contribute to the growth. Losing a fight/dying would kill the Ork and then you are left with a dead Ork. Not a big one.
I don't know, people keep citing that Orks would keep getting bigger, but I can't see how. If they all attack the Necrons, they get slaughtered at pitched battle, either in space or charging a firing line of Necrons.
In these situations, how can the growth occur? They are either dead, and therefore dead, or fleeing, so didn't really fight. And their spores don't get bigger, as the spores didn't fight.
And that is assuming that the spores aren't atomised by gauss weapons.
That's assuming that all gauss flayer/weapon hits are instant kills. Remember, while they may atomize chunks of Ork, Ork physiology is robust to the point where they can survive for a short period even with their heads removed. And given the sheer amount of Orks I doubt each Necron warrior will vaporize what's left (which continues to release spores) when there's hundreds more Orks bearing down on them. Typically, the best example of how Orks thrive in a war-rich environment is the Octarius war versus the nids. There they explicitly state how the Orks are becoming stronger with their diet of war and the nids are constantly adapting with even the Swarmlord becoming involved in the conflict. Keep in mind that the Nids are similar to the Necrons in the fact that they dispose of Ork bodies efficiently, just through consumption and their own micro-phages trying to take down the Ork spores on a microscopic level and the fact that the Orks haven't been curbstomped shows that it isn't that easy to dispose of.
Though worth keeping in mind is that the Tyranids benefit just as much from Octarius as the Orks do. More and more Orks are drawn there (more free biomass!) and the constant war makes it an evolutionary sandbox for the Tyranids to fieldtest and improve their DNA.
Grimskul wrote: Ugh, Pain4Pleasure please stop. You're making the rest of us Orks look ridiculous with your try-hard posts. As awesome as Orks are, I don't see them ever outright winning against a unified Necron front in their prime, at best its a stalemate which is exactly what an Ork wants anyways, a never-ending battle where a boy can get his mettle tested.
I rank Orks roughly upper-middle tier regarding power rankings in terms of races, but Necrons have already been established as one of the top tier guys given that they managed to even take down the C'tan in their prime (albeit through backstabbing).
Then start defending orks maybe?
Don't come on here just to insult me. It's not needed.
Are you so incredibly insecure in your arguments and idea's that you have literally no means to come up with an effective argument of your own except for "Trollop okras win cause i say so" you are the very literal definition of a troll. Your posts are so inane and nonsensical I don't even know why you bother writing them, you come across as nothing less than an donkey-cave, if you want to actually think up things and argue effectively then by all means do so, but just to come and ridicule people makes you look like a dick.
I was hoping this thread might actually contain some intelligent discussion. I got trolled hard. Kudos to those of you who actually posted something useful instead of yelling and fanboying all over the place.
I'm also reminded of just how bad the Necron fluff actually is. All this "blow up all the stars" and "snuff out the warp" stuff is just nonsense. They have no weakness. At least the old codex implied that the cutting off the warp project was a work in process, that actually posed quite a challenge for the C'Tan.
Unfortunately there really aren't enough examples of these races fighting. When Necrons show up in the novels, they are usually quite a lot weaker than the codex makes them out to be. Still terrifying mind you, but not unbeatable.
I like to imagine Orks could at least hold out. Older fluff mentioned that they can survive even on asteroids and wrecked ships, so blowing up all the stars wouldn't actually kill them all. And they can even survive in the warp, one place Necrons and C'Tan have no dominion over. Much as I liked the old Necron fluff, I never really thought of them as invincible. Sure, they are masters of reality. But what happens when the Warp meets reality? Warp wins. So I always thought of warp based races having a chance.
Also, Orks are often shown to be extremely adaptable. We really don't know just how far they could go after prolonged contact with Necrons. There's nothing to suggest Orks could loot Necron tech and use it themselves.
I'm also reminded of just how bad the Necron fluff actually is. All this "blow up all the stars" and "snuff out the warp" stuff is just nonsense. They have no weakness. At least the old codex implied that the cutting off the warp project was a work in process, that actually posed quite a challenge for the C'Tan.
The newcron dex for 5th was the begging of the end for me. So much fanboyism in its pages it was sickening. Just another running theme of GWs favorite plot devise of we can do anything but for some unfathomable reason we just choose not too.
Its too bad, I rather liked the Necrons as the mindless war machine that time forgot... but was slowly coming back.
I'm also reminded of just how bad the Necron fluff actually is. All this "blow up all the stars" and "snuff out the warp" stuff is just nonsense. They have no weakness. At least the old codex implied that the cutting off the warp project was a work in process, that actually posed quite a challenge for the C'Tan.
The newcron dex for 5th was the begging of the end for me. So much fanboyism in its pages it was sickening. Just another running theme of GWs favorite plot devise of we can do anything but for some unfathomable reason we just choose not too.
Its too bad, I rather liked the Necrons as the mindless war machine that time forgot... but was slowly coming back.
But the only real difference is that the 'slowly coming back' turned into 'got here'...
Guys, this was never going to be an intelligent debate. Consider the subject matter. Two completely imaginary races, with conflicting and nonsensical fluff which has been revised and ret-conned to absurdity. Even pretending that it would be possible to have a rational, intelligent debate is in itself absurd.
r_squared wrote: Guys, this was never going to be an intelligent debate. Consider the subject matter. Two completely imaginary races, with conflicting and nonsensical fluff which has been revised and ret-conned to absurdity. Even pretending that it would be possible to have a rational, intelligent debate is in itself absurd.
Still, it was good fun though.
There has been plenty of intelligent discussion on the fluff on this forum before. Compared to most this thread has been pretty bad.
I blame the Necron fluff. But then, I guess I'm just venting. I actually read the whole thread, and immediately regretted it
Furyou Miko wrote: As opposed to Orks who have all their stuff explained by "Magic, but they don't know they're doing it."
To my knowledge this fluff didn't come around until 4th edition.
And I always hated it. The new books make Orks out to be a bunch of psychic idiots that only accomplish anything through brute force, sheer numbers and plain dumb luck.
But they weren't always like that. The old Rogue Trader Ork books (there were three) painted a rather different picture. They were a successful, space faring race that survived through its pragmatism and resilience. Their tech worked because it worked(though not always well). Mekboys were competent enough to build working devices, even if they didn't fully understand them. The knowledge was coded in their DNA, which might not make much sense, but its miles better than "it works because they believe it works."
They weren't just "all fighting, all the time." The had civilizations, culture, religion. They had an insatiable wanderlust, a desire to explore that led them to spread out across the galaxy. These were important aspects of Ork fluff that have been reduced to footnotes. Now they are little more than wild beasts.
I didn't get into the game until around 2008. When I first read Waaargh: Da Orks, I was taken aback by how much more interesting and detailed it was.
Well now I'm rambling, but basically yes, Ork fluff has changed, for the worse IMO. But its still has more going for it than the "we always win" Necrons.
Ashiraya wrote: Hey r_squared, wanna see a video of me solo-killing 1,000 Orks in Space Marine? =)))))))))))))))))))))))))
No but seriously, is this what the argument has devolved into?
'Necrons lose because their fluff is worse'?
'Necrons lose because they recently got a big faction overhaul'?
'Necrons lose because waaagh da orks waaagh'?
No what I'm saying is that Necrons win because their fluff is worse.
Furyou Miko wrote: As opposed to Orks who have all their stuff explained by "Magic, but they don't know they're doing it."
There's a thread floating around on these boards from back -well- before the new Ork codex came out.
In it, it explains a squig.
Basically this squig begins to coo when it sees something unknown. As said thing gets closer this coo becomes painful and very load, and if whatever it is worried about comes too close it goes nuts and begins defecating uncontrollably.
This Orks will often tame these squigs and let them live on their shoulders because they believe that having one improves the accuracy of their weapons, The truth, however, is that the Ork simply aims better and controls their weapon to a greater degree - because they'd rather not have their pet gakking all over their armor.
In essence, Ork "magic" can almost always be explained away by Orks just having.. Well, a poor understanding of things in a literal sense. Necrons are a great deal beyond that.
Alcibiades wrote: Where in the codex does it say that Ork stuff works as if by magic? I don't think it does,
The 'orkish psychic field' has been core fluff since at least the third edition codex. Its the whole thing that powers the Waaagh, keeps their guns working reliably and makes red ones go faster.
Alcibiades wrote: Where in the codex does it say that Ork stuff works as if by magic? I don't think it does,
The 'orkish psychic field' has been core fluff since at least the third edition codex. Its the whole thing that powers the Waaagh, keeps their guns working reliably and makes red ones go faster.
It's one of those things which has been over-blown by the player base. I have all three of the last ork codex', and while it -is- always mentioned, a slight air of skepticism is cast over it. Words like "appear" and such, as well as much of it coming from first person accounts of Mechanicus followers who.. Well, don't understand foreign tech.
As I already said, it's quite possibly that the ork "beliefs make it true" thing has a very firm grounding in simple to understand concepts.. Which Orks wholly overlook due to the way they think. Meks instinctively painting bombs with better / larger payloads yellow, drivers who know how better to milk every ounce of power from their vehicle / have a more powerful engine painting their vehicles red, yadda yadda.
Alcibiades wrote: Where in the codex does it say that Ork stuff works as if by magic? I don't think it does,
The 'orkish psychic field' has been core fluff since at least the third edition codex. Its the whole thing that powers the Waaagh,
Correct, 100% of Orks have at least a small psychic presence.
keeps their guns working reliably
False to incomplete. Imperial sources on Orks are notoriously unreliable (see Kommandos) and no imperial technician would bat an eye before declaring something he didn't understand 'magic'.
Ork meks make guns and equipment just fine, thank you very much.
I said reliably, not at all. Ork Meks may be genius inventors, but Orks in general suck at maintenance. Ork guns might not work "because they believe in them", but they certainly jam less than they otherwise might.
Furyou Miko wrote: I said reliably, not at all. Ork Meks may be genius inventors, but Orks in general suck at maintenance. Ork guns might not work "because they believe in them", but they certainly jam less than they otherwise might.
Citation?
Ork meks make reliable guns that their species can use. I mean, the average ork is perfectly capable of keeping an AKA from jamming and I imagine their standard gun is sturdier than those.
Orks that like guns (lootas, flash gits) are exceptionally good at coaxing every little bit of performance out of their guns.
Methinks you've been buying too much into the "Orks always win! Psychic chickens will appear if you can convince an Ork that they will!" fandom of the Ork faction.
Furyou Miko wrote: I said reliably, not at all. Ork Meks may be genius inventors, but Orks in general suck at maintenance. Ork guns might not work "because they believe in them", but they certainly jam less than they otherwise might.
Citation?
Ork meks make reliable guns that their species can use. I mean, the average ork is perfectly capable of keeping an AKA from jamming and I imagine their standard gun is sturdier than those.
Orks that like guns (lootas, flash gits) are exceptionally good at coaxing every little bit of performance out of their guns.
I'm mostly basing my knowledge off the codex and the GorkaMorka fluff... oh, and the bits that used to be on display at the GWHQ museum before they tore it up to make the Hall of Fame.
Furyou Miko wrote: I said reliably, not at all. Ork Meks may be genius inventors, but Orks in general suck at maintenance. Ork guns might not work "because they believe in them", but they certainly jam less than they otherwise might.
Citation?
Ork meks make reliable guns that their species can use. I mean, the average ork is perfectly capable of keeping an AKA from jamming and I imagine their standard gun is sturdier than those.
Orks that like guns (lootas, flash gits) are exceptionally good at coaxing every little bit of performance out of their guns.
Methinks you've been buying too much into the "Orks always win! Psychic chickens will appear if you can convince an Ork that they will!" fandom of the Ork faction.
For a current entry, all Ork weapons in FFG's game series are "Unreliable" in the hands of a non-Ork (this is a specific Weapon Rule). They lose this trait in the hands of an Ork. Is this an effect of the gestalt psychic field generated by the Orks? Maybe.
This is important because the RPGs try to take a lot of the stuff mentioned in the wargame in very vague/general ways and provide further details/rules/explanation. The RPG does not explicitly say that it's "Waaagh!power" that makes these weapons less-reliable in the hands of non-Orks than Orks, but it is heavily implied.
Furyou Miko wrote: I said reliably, not at all. Ork Meks may be genius inventors, but Orks in general suck at maintenance. Ork guns might not work "because they believe in them", but they certainly jam less than they otherwise might.
Citation?
Ork meks make reliable guns that their species can use. I mean, the average ork is perfectly capable of keeping an AKA from jamming and I imagine their standard gun is sturdier than those.
Orks that like guns (lootas, flash gits) are exceptionally good at coaxing every little bit of performance out of their guns.
Methinks you've been buying too much into the "Orks always win! Psychic chickens will appear if you can convince an Ork that they will!" fandom of the Ork faction.
For a current entry, all Ork weapons in FFG's game series are "Unreliable" in the hands of a non-Ork (this is a specific Weapon Rule). They lose this trait in the hands of an Ork. Is this an effect of the gestalt psychic field generated by the Orks? Maybe.
This is important because the RPGs try to take a lot of the stuff mentioned in the wargame in very vague/general ways and provide further details/rules/explanation. The RPG does not explicitly say that it's "Waaagh!power" that makes these weapons less-reliable in the hands of non-Orks than Orks, but it is heavily implied.
If you give an A-typical weapon to anyone who's not used to using that or something similar, it becomes "unreliable". Sure most guns boil down to "Aim, pull the trigger" - but that doesn't mean that many of us could do much beyond that with plenty of weapons. I doubt I'd be able to reload anything other than a fairly basic handgun with any speed or reliability, primarily because I'm not familiar with them.
Apply this to a setting where weapons vary dramatically, and it can make sense well beyond the whole "psychic power!" stuff. I mean most imperial soldiery are used to Lasguns and their equivalents. A gun which has extraordinarily low maintenance and no real mechanism cleaning required. Just pop a power pack in and go to town - handing them a rugged and gigantic solid-shot weapon which is put together in an odd fashion would doubtlessly have problems.
Lasguns require extensive cleaning. The rites and rituals thereof are detailed in the Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, and is covered quite a lot in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels. There's all kinds of lenses, contacts, triggers and parts to clean and oil.
Specifically, though, the "Unreliable" weapon trait causes weapons to jam more frequently than those that lack this trait, regardless of the skill of the person using it. An Imperial weapon with the "Unreliable" trait will jam just as frequently for the Guardsman issued it as it would for some street-rat from the underHive. It's just that the weapon is shoddily built or has a fundamental design flaw, regardless of the amount of maintenance put into it.
No amount of praying and rituals and whatever human invented superstitious dogma will work on the Ork weapons. Maybe that's what the IoM are doing wrong. They are praying to the stuff and reporting back that they don't work. It's got less to do with Ork ignorance and more to do with religious ignorance perhaps.
The Necrons will nuke them from space. The Orks have numbers but no way to bring them all to bear. If it's true that the Necrons outnumber humanity (a possibility suggested by their codex), then the Orks could not win even if everything was fought on their terms.
Even in this case such a massive amount of orks would easily overwhelm even the most disciplined and powerful host of warships the necrons could muster through sheer numbers. Necrons would certainly make them work for it but as it has been said there is only a finite number of them. Also consider the warp mess such a huge conglomeration of orks would create. Hell Gork and Mork themselves might burst from the warp.
To go to the ground Orks still "win" The fact is that the battlefield would become such a mess with the dead and destroyed that Necron style of ranged fighting would become next to impossible. I would predict a near endless grind between the two factions that would ultimately end in Ork victory as the finite number of Necrons slowly decreased over time while the endless ork tides would continue to be reinforced in spite of their losses.
ProwlerPC wrote: No amount of praying and rituals and whatever human invented superstitious dogma will work on the Ork weapons. Maybe that's what the IoM are doing wrong. They are praying to the stuff and reporting back that they don't work. It's got less to do with Ork ignorance and more to do with religious ignorance perhaps.
Adeptus Mechanicus prayers are not out of religious ignorance. It's so the lasgun won't fail in the middle of the next battle out of spite.
Still the best counter-argument in this thread so far though.
how cute.
