True. But it seems very every good way to resign without having to admit you failed, a thing no political figure in universe want s to do.
Cause I don,t want her to die. It just seems a way that Corbyn might use, its tackling a problem but more gently.
But suppose she really is sick, whether physical or mentally, is it appropriate to accuse someone of making an excuse without knowing? Her recent poor record may be because she is sick; rather than she has been poor therefore lets make her out to be unwell?
I know I know, aftermath of WW2 and all that. But the HRA makes it too easy for the scum of the earth to launch petty and frivolous lawsuits. The way it was before, with the costs and delays, to me ensured that only the real cases went forward. This is my opinion but I think some only bring cases before it out of boredom and vindictiveness. If your a sociopathic killer sitting bored out of your head in prision then why not claim your rights have been violated somehow just for something to do? With the added bonus that any money you win is more salt in the wound for the victims and the prison staff.
If that was the case we would be overwhelmed with such cases all the time (such as whether all prisoners should be allowed pet hamsters). There have only been a handful, but high profile cases, there's more to the judicial system than just making something up and running with it, the legal system is much more complex than this. Only arguments that do need to be heard and have a potential case get to the ECHR. High profile cases like this are taken because the legislation is unclear and the judicial system needs to make a determination (such as should a citizen being deported for legal reasons from the EU be assured that the rights they have here in not being tortured and having a fair trial still apply in the country that the EU country wants to deport them to?).
Or cost usmillions in endless cases to deport criminals, or at other end some of the truely silly cases brought... Human rights on being denied luxuries in jail etc.
You are focusing solely on the high profile cases that do cost. But those costs are miniscule when compared to what rights it gives us all everyday. You may not see those rights, they are not see them plastered on every wall but they are there. It provides us all protection. It stops governments exploiting the populace, means they can go on strike or join a rally in London without fear of a curfew being issued. It means that the police can't just invade you house just to have a look what you are doing and can't use physical or mental attacks to et information from you. It means that you can have the rights of privacy in the world and that they don't monitor you everyday all the time whether that is mowing the lawn, reading a book, sleeping with your partner and so on; it means your employer has to treat you with certain respect, treat all it's staff equally and not discriminate against. Don't be so quick to denigrate the human rights the ECHR gives you, because you may look forlornly back when they are gone and the government is being ever more intrusive in all our lives.
If you want to live in a world where human rights are at the expense of the safety of the country I'd suggest you move to Egypt and experience what happens when 'populace safety' is put before human rights.
I do believe the act is important, however the act has also been heavily open to being exploited at times too.
It matters but it also should not be being used to get access to porn in jail!
A matter of wrongful conviction is different. It is a serious legal act not one for claims of wanting colour tv or ice cream.
True. But it seems very every good way to resign without having to admit you failed, a thing no political figure in universe want s to do.
Cause I don,t want her to die. It just seems a way that Corbyn might use, its tackling a problem but more gently.
But suppose she really is sick, whether physical or mentally, is it appropriate to accuse someone of making an excuse without knowing? Her recent poor record may be because she is sick; rather than she has been poor therefore lets make her out to be unwell?
I know I know, aftermath of WW2 and all that. But the HRA makes it too easy for the scum of the earth to launch petty and frivolous lawsuits. The way it was before, with the costs and delays, to me ensured that only the real cases went forward. This is my opinion but I think some only bring cases before it out of boredom and vindictiveness. If your a sociopathic killer sitting bored out of your head in prision then why not claim your rights have been violated somehow just for something to do? With the added bonus that any money you win is more salt in the wound for the victims and the prison staff.
If that was the case we would be overwhelmed with such cases all the time (such as whether all prisoners should be allowed pet hamsters). There have only been a handful, but high profile cases, there's more to the judicial system than just making something up and running with it, the legal system is much more complex than this. Only arguments that do need to be heard and have a potential case get to the ECHR. High profile cases like this are taken because the legislation is unclear and the judicial system needs to make a determination (such as should a citizen being deported for legal reasons from the EU be assured that the rights they have here in not being tortured and having a fair trial still apply in the country that the EU country wants to deport them to?).
Because our parliament is so full of liars, deceiver's and tricksters its hard to sometimes take anything at face value!
So, as we enter the final stretch, how are people feeling? Still intending to vote? Has the campaign changed the way you intend to vote, or cemented your beliefs?
I think its been one of the most interesting campaigns in a long time, primarily because,for the first time we actually seem to have some choices. Each party is now quite different, and what will happen tomorrow is, I think going to either cement our travel down one path, or take us meandering through slightly unfamiliar territory.
That in itself is quite interesting, and I'm not taking things for granted. Up until Abbott went, I was pretty certain of a Tory victory, just a case of by how much, but now, her departure may swing a few votes back towards Labour.
I will be voting Labour, I've even joined the party, which is something I've never done before. But whether I remain in the party depends on how the post election party carries on. If they stick to the manifesto, I'm in. If they start going all New Labour again, I'm out.
If they lose, but keep their revitalised agenda going then I'll stick around, but if we get another Blair, I'm out again.
Anybody else willing to plant their flag, or are there still some waverers out there?
Will be voting SDLP tomorrow, don't normally vote for them as a first choice, however, there is a risk of the DUP taking the seat from the current SDLP holder which would be a travesty so I'll be doing my bit to stop it
In England would love it if Labour could win but will accept the Tories getting a bit of a bloody nose, I don't know what it is but to me even for a Tory May comes across as un-trustworthy.
r_squared wrote: So, as we enter the final stretch, how are people feeling? Still intending to vote? Has the campaign changed the way you intend to vote, or cemented your beliefs?
I think its been one of the most interesting campaigns in a long time, primarily because,for the first time we actually seem to have some choices. Each party is now quite different, and what will happen tomorrow is, I think going to either cement our travel down one path, or take us meandering through slightly unfamiliar territory.
That in itself is quite interesting, and I'm not taking things for granted. Up until Abbott went, I was pretty certain of a Tory victory, just a case of by how much, but now, her departure may swing a few votes back towards Labour.
I will be voting Labour, I've even joined the party, which is something I've never done before. But whether I remain in the party depends on how the post election party carries on. If they stick to the manifesto, I'm in. If they start going all New Labour again, I'm out.
If they lose, but keep their revitalised agenda going then I'll stick around, but if we get another Blair, I'm out again.
Anybody else willing to plant their flag, or are there still some waverers out there?
I'm just glad it's over. Like most people, I made up my mind years ago on who to vote.
I'll be voting SNP as always, but I'm glad that in England and Wales they do have a genuine choice this time, instead of Red Blairites of Blue Blairites.
As always, I hope Clegg gets a boot up the rear tomorrow.
Claims of ill health. Which is a cover story if I ever saw one.
More likely she realised her position was entirely impossible to maintain and hurting her party.
She was a embarrassment to the campaign on several interviews.
I doubt she had many allies left in Party HQ/the cabinet by the end.
Don't be so quick to judge the circumstances. The alternative view is that an illness is reducing her ability on the campaign trail (but wanted to see Labour do well so tried to stick it out).
What happens if next week she resigns because she is diagnosed with a brain tumour and only has weeks left (lets hope not but it does happen). How would you feel if that your employer/friends family stated the same thing when you were ill?
We should avoid making judgements on information we do not have. Unless you have information that she really is lying then you should accept such statements as fact rather than fiction.
Normally, I'd give people the benefit of the doubt, but this has happened before at crucial moments.
If Abbott is genuinely ill, then I wish her all the best, but I'm unconvinced. I think the heat is on, and she has decided to get out of the kitchen.
Based on where the polls have gotten us recently (i.e. within the margin of error but not following the popularly presumed script) I'm going to guess we'll see .... Tory gaining a handful of seats and not much else happening
Henry wrote: Based on where the polls have gotten us recently (i.e. within the margin of error but not following the popularly presumed script) I'm going to guess we'll see .... Tory gaining a handful of seats and not much else happening
As always, and for the record, I'll put my neck on the line and make a prediction. I predicted a Trump victory, so I'm not that bad at this
1. Conservatives to win a small majority. Corbyn has had a great campaign, but I think the damage was done months ago. Middle England are fully aware that May is not up to the job, but they'll never vote for Corbyn/Abbott/McDonell. Noses will be held, and votes will be cast for the Tories.
2. 50 seats for the SNP
3. I like Sheffield, great city, and I hope the people there give Nick Clegg the boot up the rear he deserves.
I'll vote Scottish Greens. I really like Patrick Harvie, see him often around the area, and he's a nice guy in it for all the right reasons. Patrick Grady will almost certainly win the seat for the SNP, but if they have a chance of winning a seat anywhere it's here.
I'm a hardline 'you have to vote for what you want' guy and tend to deride tactical voting or the idea that any vote is a wasted vote, but I do have to say if I was in a seat in danger of being taken by the Tories or Scottish Labour I'd be very tempted to vote SNP, whilst feeling icky about it,
Henry wrote: Based on where the polls have gotten us recently (i.e. within the margin of error but not following the popularly presumed script) I'm going to guess we'll see .... Tory gaining a handful of seats and not much else happening
You'd think, but considering what they thought they would do, if they come out of this with anything less than a stonking majority and a defeated and humbled left, the knives will be out for May. I almost feel sorry for her.
I've mentioned it before, if the Tories win, then they have to deal with Brexit. I don't fancy the chances of May surviving long either way. They'll try and blame the opposition, but everyone will be able to see exactly what they have wrought.
Can you still enjoy shadenfreude if you're getting done over as well I wonder?
I think we can conclude then that recent poor speeches and the like was due to illness that hadn't yet been recognised.
Yeah seems like they put some proof out there.
Il take it back then. However given the nature of political parties, mps and west minster in general... Out cynicism at first claims are not entirely without reason. Our trust in them is somewhat lacking.
Henry wrote: Based on where the polls have gotten us recently (i.e. within the margin of error but not following the popularly presumed script) I'm going to guess we'll see .... Tory gaining a handful of seats and not much else happening
Which I think will mean May's tenure will probably cut short. There will be a lot of accusations that in effect she wasted a lot of time for political aims and has stopped 2 months worth of preparation work over Brexit. Her 'honey moon' period is also well and truly over. She has shown that rather than be a shrewd diplomat she somehow manages to stumble from one fiasco to the next with an inability to argue a case and has to resort to the same tired old soundbites which lack any substance. She's also shown she is willing to bend over backwards to try and accommodate a significant proportion of the exUKIP crowd that see immigration and the EU as the root of all our problems. On the other hand Corbyn has shown he is willing to compromise and despite all the muck thrown at him has shown he can at least stomach them (whereas May does the best impression of a terrified mangy rabbit in headlights). As such I think the EU will laughing if they see May turn up at the table.
The one thing we can say though is just how much a divide there is between the generations, with the older generation being generally much more conservative in their views of the world. As such the only thing that I can really predict from this election is the country is going to be more divided than ever before and that the issues with Brexit will continue to split and divide the country (likely leading eventually to one side blaming the other when the green grass on the other side turns out to be a blasted wasteland and the other side just repeats the "we told you so".
As for who to vote for. It goes into the definitely not Tory category. According to the tactical voting site Labour has the best chance of unseating Conservatives in the area. The area is so blue May could turn the whole County into a nuclear test site and they'd still vote for her. As such I'd like to get the area to the point where there is actually a political debate and that candidates actually bother to do something. So I'll probably vote Labour. However my political views are more aligned to LD and Greens and would like to see them both have more influence than the far left and far right options we have a choice out of, but the Green vote especially seems a bit of a waste given the FPTP system. So basically I'm voting "Anything but May and Cronies".
On the other hand if she does get in I might not need to worry about the next election as I'll be doing my best to get out of the country (or going to Scotland and voting for independence).
Henry wrote: Based on where the polls have gotten us recently (i.e. within the margin of error but not following the popularly presumed script) I'm going to guess we'll see .... Tory gaining a handful of seats and not much else happening
You'd think, but considering what they thought they would do, if they come out of this with anything less than a stonking majority and a defeated and humbled left, the knives will be out for May. I almost feel sorry for her.
I've mentioned it before, if the Tories win, then they have to deal with Brexit. I don't fancy the chances of May surviving long either way. They'll try and blame the opposition, but everyone will be able to see exactly what they have wrought.
Can you still enjoy shadenfreude if you're getting done over as well I wonder?
I'll be surprised if May is still PM by Christmas, for 3 reasons (in order of likeliness):
1. She's shamed the party by making such a gak of the GE.
2. She'll lose her seat. She needs to be an MP to be PM, right?
3. She is charged with lying about a political opponent.
I'll be surprised if May is still PM by Christmas, for 3 reasons (in order of likeliness):
1. She's shamed the party by making such a gak of the GE.
2. She'll lose her seat. She needs to be an MP to be PM, right?
3. She is charged with lying about a political opponent.
Future War Cultist wrote: I'm sure it's not that much money in the grand scheme of things but even one penny is too much for me to stomach in those cases. Of course it's the lawyers who really do well out of it. I'm sure Tony Blair wasn't thinking about Cherie's career at all when he created the human rights act.
In a country based on the rule of law, there will always be a role for lawyers.
The Human Rights Act brings UK law into compliance with the European Convention on Human Rights, which is in compliance with the United Nations Convention on Human Rights. (Which the UK helped to write back in 1948 in the 1940s.)
I'll be surprised if May is still PM by Christmas, for 3 reasons (in order of likeliness):
1. She's shamed the party by making such a gak of the GE.
2. She'll lose her seat. She needs to be an MP to be PM, right?
3. She is charged with lying about a political opponent.
1. Possible.
2. No chance.
3. That's the norm.
1. Possible. If she fails bad enough or there's a rebellion inside party
2. I checked. She has a 29,000 majority with 54% of vote. Not likely. At all.
3. Yes, that's just day to day stuff for Westminster.
Voted Labour, however our seat is held by Cons with a majority of around 20K so no chance there, and she's a bit of a get as well.. so.. aye, sad times, but at least it'll be another vote for Labour overall for when they start comparing Corbyn's performance to Ed's the morning after.
1. She's shamed the party by making such a gak of the GE.
2. She'll lose her seat. She needs to be an MP to be PM, right?
3. She is charged with lying about a political opponent.
1. Is possible. I think there are plenty of opponents in the stands just waiting for their chance. If she does win I wonder whether it will be Xmas or whether the shrewd person will wait until she has made such a mess of Brexit that it becomes a lot easier to remove her. If of course it goes to a hung parliament I expect she'll quit quite soon though as she wanted to get a 'mandate' for her Brexit negotiations and will have got a very big thumbs down.
2. Is highly unlikely, she could nuke Scotland and still get voted in.
3. Unfortunately there is no come back on deliberately misleading the electorate on any of the politicians. She could throw the manifesto in the bin next week and by the time the next election comes round the group of people that will vote Tories no matter what will have happily forgotten she did it or conveniently ignore it. The only real hope is if someone takes issue personally and sues her (or the Tory party).
Still it is one Tory we no longer have to deal with. Just a pity he is now editor of the London Tory Standard
I saw that earlier on twitter and after seeing her condition confirmed went to see if I could find it and it had been deleted. Didn't realise her condition had actually been confirmed prior to him tweeting it.
Still, no surprise from compassionate conservatives, eh?
David Dimbleby, John Curtice, a half-drunk Nigel Farage getting wheeled out, and of course, Paddy Ashdown always convinced that this will be the Lib Dems' year
David Dimbleby, John Curtice, a half-drunk Nigel Farage getting wheeled out, and of course, Paddy Ashdown always convinced that this will be the Lib Dems' year
Love it.
Hopefully Nigel Farage will get wheeled out the building in a dust bin and dumped into the furthest landfill! As for Mr Ashdown somehow I don't think he'll be offering to eat his hat this time.
r_squared wrote: So, as we enter the final stretch, how are people feeling? Still intending to vote? Has the campaign changed the way you intend to vote, or cemented your beliefs?
If I could vote, I'd vote Labour. It boggles my mind when someone who isn't already wealthy votes Tory.
r_squared wrote: So, as we enter the final stretch, how are people feeling? Still intending to vote? Has the campaign changed the way you intend to vote, or cemented your beliefs?
If I could vote, I'd vote Labour. It boggles my mind when someone who isn't already wealthy votes Tory.
It gets worse than that. About 40% of public sector (a lot on low paid jobs) also vote Tories too.
Really the problem is that most of our newspapers and media are very Conservative biased as the owners support the Tories directly because they are wealthy and hence they get the greatest benefits from having a Tory government. They have also inveigled there way into making the Tories slide up to them because of the influence they have. The BBC use to be more independent (really left of centre) but the with changes in how it is run the Conservatives have been slowly turning the screw on them as well.
For example these are todays headlines as some of the tabloids get a bit panicky about Corbyns popularity increase...
I actually voted a week ago (here's hoping the postal system works!)
Went for the Lib Dems, as they best respect my views. Unfortunately I'm in a very safe Tory seat, so it's normally just a toss up between Labour and LDs as to who gets second place
Really the problem is that most of our newspapers and media are very Conservative biased as the owners support the Tories directly because they are wealthy and hence they get the greatest benefits from having a Tory government. They have also inveigled there way into making the Tories slide up to them because of the influence they have. The BBC use to be more independent (really left of centre) but the with changes in how it is run the Conservatives have been slowly turning the screw on them as well.
A dailymash or similar headline I saw recently was "Vote Tory, urges newspapers owed by billionaire tax avoiders"
Got any space in Canada as I'm looking for a more rational country?
We are nothing but space. We'd love to have you! Bring a decent jacket for the winter, though.
This is the first time in some time that I haven't known who to vote for, and might not at all.
Traditionally a Lib Dem voter, but I'm not in agreement with holding another referendum on the EU. As much as I disagreed with the referendum and think it will be remembered as one of the biggest disasters and bungled pieces of political mismanagement in Britain's history, that's the decision that was made and now we have to stick through it and come out the other side. I also can't understand the LDs, who have had a history of being progressive and.. well, liberal, putting someone such as Farron forward for leadership considering his views on abortion and homosexuality. The latter especially, considering the history of the Lib Dems..
And finally, Farron is no Paddy Ashdown (or Charles Kennedy for that matter), and in the words of Obama when describing David Cameron, seems like "a lightweight".
So that leaves.. Strong and Stable as an option. This is possibly the only time that I've thought about voting Tory, as I do think a strong majority would help May get a good Brexit deal and make some hard decisions. But then I think.. is she willing to really walk away without a trade deal? And I read about their disregard for the environment (de-regulation of fracking for instance), and I know about people who work in medical care and the strain they are under, and disabled people also that are struggling with their benefit cuts. And how they rounded on Corbyn, and tried to convince the un-educated that there is no link between our foreign policy and the UK becoming more of a terrorist target, while Tory politicians continue to get 'gifts' from the likes of the Saudis and make massive arms deals with them.
One thing is that the Tories do seem to have more seemingly competent politicians on their benches, which leads me to..
Team Red (as we have been led to believe). One thing that automatically endears me to Corbyn is the fact that most other politicans seem to hate him. I think they instinctively recognise that he isn't 'one of them', in the sense that he doesn't come across as a snivelling, pedantic sort and actually seems like an intelligent, normal human being. But, following the Labour leadership bout he doesn't seem to be surrounded by many competent ministers, and we have to remember the mess the Blairite Labour government left the economy in. You have to think the Tories do seem like the stronger economic option, but it's just a shame there is so much evil stuff that comes along with it!
I'm not too sure about some elements of Labour policy: Being a frequent traveller by train, and regularly paying (substantially) more for a return ticket to London than I do on a return flight to Europe (which regularly includes running to a transfer so you don't have to sit on the floor or stand in a gakky two-carriage train), I can't imagine how re-nationalising rail can make it any worse than it already is.
But I'm not too sure about re-nationalisation of power will work, or whether increases in tax for the top earners will be able to pay for all of that, and for the money that the NHS and education so desperately needs.
The only other party on my potentials list is the Greens, who seem a bit light on policy (other than being seemingly even more left-wing than a resurgent left-wing Labour party), but are representative of environmental concerns, which seem to have been almost completely neglected by the two main parties. On the other hand, they want to mark and end to nuclear power (the industry I work in), so possibly not too bright to vote that way!
I decided earlier that since I can't abide any of them on party lines to vote in line with the candidate instead.
In my constituency, I have the following choices. A Tory Cambridgite ex-financial analyst. A Labour candidate who quite literally works for Rupert Murdoch. A Liberal Democrat who's about 24 and works full-time for the party. A Green candidate who's all about weed and alternative medicine. A UKIP candidate who cannot write a coherent correctly spelt leaflet. And a Trade Union candidate who thinks Lenin had the right of things.
Now I honestly don't know if I can even be bothered to go and vote tomorrow. I'm sick of the leaders, the parties, and even the candidates are drab. Maybe I'll roll a D6? That's what I'm down to here.
This is the first time in some time that I haven't known who to vote for, and might not at all.
Traditionally a Lib Dem voter, but I'm not in agreement with holding another referendum on the EU. As much as I disagreed with the referendum and think it will be remembered as one of the biggest disasters and bungled pieces of political mismanagement in Britain's history, that's the decision that was made and now we have to stick through it and come out the other side. ...
A democracy that can't change its mind isn't a democracy.
Back to the likely outcome; I think unless it is a Conservative landslide then May will have been damaged by the result, and Corbyn will have been strengthened. All those people saying he was unelectable will have to eat their words. He will have overcome a 20+% deficit in polling.
Listening to the speeches on Radio 4, I get some of the reason why Corbyn has become a hero up the pop charts. He sounds actually effective, enthusiastic and genuine. May sounds like a Dalek whose voice has been run through a vocaliser to make it sound human. She is the worst of all the party leaders. Even Nutter sounds more genuinely human, however much I despise his ideas.
Thank feck there is a Monster Looney Raving Candidate in Ceredigion. Weirdly, the local election is also going to have the least impact on the GE vote. It's a toss up between Plaid Cymru (no - just no) and Lib Dems.
Whirlwind wrote: It gets worse than that. About 40% of public sector (a lot on low paid jobs) also vote Tories too.
The military could probably account for a fairly large chunk of that. I'm the only openly "out" Labour supporter that I know of, and I get some stick for it I can tell you. There are a few others that I suspect are Labour too, but are very quiet about it, unsurprising really as most of the guys I work with are Tories or UKIP.
However, the stick I get is good humoured, there's no malice, and I'm not forcing my ideas on people, so when we do debate, it tends to be pretty civilised.
Ketara wrote: Maybe I'll roll a D6? That's what I'm down to here.
Hope you don't roll a natural 1. It's usually an automatic failure.
So, everything will be known tomorrow's evening, I guess?
Probably by about 5 or 6am Friday, latest. How much earlier than that it could be is down to how close it is.
One normally declare before 11pm.
Bur yeah, 5-6 AM depending on recounts and such. Though they may not be entirely finished that should declare a mathematical winner
Ketara wrote: I decided earlier that since I can't abide any of them on party lines to vote in line with the candidate instead.
In my constituency, I have the following choices. A Tory Cambridgite ex-financial analyst. A Labour candidate who quite literally works for Rupert Murdoch. A Liberal Democrat who's about 24 and works full-time for the party. A Green candidate who's all about weed and alternative medicine. A UKIP candidate who cannot write a coherent correctly spelt leaflet. And a Trade Union candidate who thinks Lenin had the right of things.
Now I honestly don't know if I can even be bothered to go and vote tomorrow. I'm sick of the leaders, the parties, and even the candidates are drab. Maybe I'll roll a D6? That's what I'm down to here.
Touch choice. If it were me, I'd either spoil your ballot in protest, or vote Green to give them some Short money.
Ketara wrote: Maybe I'll roll a D6? That's what I'm down to here.
Hope you don't roll a natural 1. It's usually an automatic failure.
So, everything will be known tomorrow's evening, I guess?
Probably by about 5 or 6am Friday, latest. How much earlier than that it could be is down to how close it is.
One normally declare before 11pm.
Bur yeah, 5-6 AM depending on recounts and such. Though they may not be entirely finished that should declare a mathematical winner
Because of my remote rural location, our seat is not declared until 8am or similar. Not that it makes any difference to the national picture
Automatically Appended Next Post:
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Well that's my voting done after a massive queue at 7 am (5 people) which flustered the people handing out the ballots a bit
This is the first time in some time that I haven't known who to vote for, and might not at all.
Traditionally a Lib Dem voter, but I'm not in agreement with holding another referendum on the EU. As much as I disagreed with the referendum and think it will be remembered as one of the biggest disasters and bungled pieces of political mismanagement in Britain's history, that's the decision that was made and now we have to stick through it and come out the other side. ...
A democracy that can't change its mind isn't a democracy.
Back to the likely outcome; I think unless it is a Conservative landslide then May will have been damaged by the result, and Corbyn will have been strengthened. All those people saying he was unelectable will have to eat their words. He will have overcome a 20+% deficit in polling.
Listening to the speeches on Radio 4, I get some of the reason why Corbyn has become a hero up the pop charts. He sounds actually effective, enthusiastic and genuine. May sounds like a Dalek whose voice has been run through a vocaliser to make it sound human. She is the worst of all the party leaders. Even Nutter sounds more genuinely human, however much I despise his ideas.
What will happen to Corbyn though if he loses? Kinnock got another chance after losing 1987, but the Blairites might have the knives out for Corbyn. They have been itching to use them for weeks.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Well that's my voting done after a massive queue at 7 am (5 people) which flustered the people handing out the ballots a bit
Ketara wrote: I decided earlier that since I can't abide any of them on party lines to vote in line with the candidate instead.
In my constituency, I have the following choices. A Tory Cambridgite ex-financial analyst. A Labour candidate who quite literally works for Rupert Murdoch. A Liberal Democrat who's about 24 and works full-time for the party. A Green candidate who's all about weed and alternative medicine. A UKIP candidate who cannot write a coherent correctly spelt leaflet. And a Trade Union candidate who thinks Lenin had the right of things.
Now I honestly don't know if I can even be bothered to go and vote tomorrow. I'm sick of the leaders, the parties, and even the candidates are drab. Maybe I'll roll a D6? That's what I'm down to here.
Touch choice. If it were me, I'd either spoil your ballot in protest, or vote Green to give them some Short money.
Ketara wrote: Maybe I'll roll a D6? That's what I'm down to here.
Hope you don't roll a natural 1. It's usually an automatic failure.
So, everything will be known tomorrow's evening, I guess?
Probably by about 5 or 6am Friday, latest. How much earlier than that it could be is down to how close it is.
One normally declare before 11pm.
Bur yeah, 5-6 AM depending on recounts and such. Though they may not be entirely finished that should declare a mathematical winner
Because of my remote rural location, our seat is not declared until 8am or similar. Not that it makes any difference to the national picture
Automatically Appended Next Post:
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Well that's my voting done after a massive queue at 7 am (5 people) which flustered the people handing out the ballots a bit
This is the first time in some time that I haven't known who to vote for, and might not at all.
Traditionally a Lib Dem voter, but I'm not in agreement with holding another referendum on the EU. As much as I disagreed with the referendum and think it will be remembered as one of the biggest disasters and bungled pieces of political mismanagement in Britain's history, that's the decision that was made and now we have to stick through it and come out the other side. ...
A democracy that can't change its mind isn't a democracy.
Back to the likely outcome; I think unless it is a Conservative landslide then May will have been damaged by the result, and Corbyn will have been strengthened. All those people saying he was unelectable will have to eat their words. He will have overcome a 20+% deficit in polling.
Listening to the speeches on Radio 4, I get some of the reason why Corbyn has become a hero up the pop charts. He sounds actually effective, enthusiastic and genuine. May sounds like a Dalek whose voice has been run through a vocaliser to make it sound human. She is the worst of all the party leaders. Even Nutter sounds more genuinely human, however much I despise his ideas.
What will happen to Corbyn though if he loses? Kinnock got another chance after losing 1987, but the Blairites might have the knives out for Corbyn. They have been itching to use them for weeks.
Every Blairite will have spent the past 2 ish years sharpening there knives on whet stones to point they can cut atoms.
There gonna be stabbing, and probably not just from the back.
He never had as much supporters in the PLP vs the LP Grass roots.
Now I honestly don't know if I can even be bothered to go and vote tomorrow. I'm sick of the leaders, the parties, and even the candidates are drab. Maybe I'll roll a D6? That's what I'm down to here.
If you mean the shadow cabinet. His pool of candidates is already very shallow.
There's former enemies in there, some voted against and odd former rebel.
He can,t clean house too hard without risking only having a partial opposition cabinet.
..
Teresa May has enemies but she can also bribe there self intrst with power as PM and on the cabinet. And his Allie Abbot, one who despite car crash campaign seems loyal and kept a key role in loyalist hands. Well she out for least a few weeks maybe longer. It could be months before she returns to front bench duties.
If you mean the shadow cabinet. His pool of candidates is already very shallow.
There's former enemies in there, some voted against and odd former rebel.
He can,t clean house too hard without risking only having a partial opposition cabinet.
..
Teresa May has enemies but she can also bribe there self intrst with power as PM and on the cabinet.
If Corbyn wins, we'll be subjected to the nauseating spectacle of Blairites crawling back for the ministerial limo.
If you mean the shadow cabinet. His pool of candidates is already very shallow.
There's former enemies in there, some voted against and odd former rebel.
He can,t clean house too hard without risking only having a partial opposition cabinet.
..
Teresa May has enemies but she can also bribe there self intrst with power as PM and on the cabinet.
If Corbyn wins, we'll be subjected to the nauseating spectacle of Blairites crawling back for the ministerial limo.
Power tends to do that. Though kept at arms length out of knife range of course...could unlock some more competent or experienced ones like chaqqa Una.
Howard A Treesong wrote: The tabloids have been on an all out assault in the last week. Pages and pages of propaganda against Corbyn with the most ridiculous headlines.
I remember an anecdote from Brexit, it was talking about Conservative and Labour staffers working together. The Conservative staffers were knocked around by the nonsense coming out in the tabloids, and their readiness to print every bit of nonsense the leave campaign put up. The Labour staffers were bemused by this, to them having to work against nonsense in the tabloids was just part of the game.
Anyway, enjoy your democracy UK dakkaites! Whether you win or lose, whether you hate every party, democracy is still one of the great social achievements of mankind and it's great to play a little part in it every few years.
Busy at Woodburn Primary School this mornings! All us farmer using it as a meet and greet. Can't believe the kids get a day off, wasters, they will be round my feet all day now!
I got soaked to the bone doing my civic duty. Bloody rain!
Still, in the annals of British history, good men and women went through hell so we could vote, so a little rain is no big deal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On another note, surprised to see only 4 candidates running up here. No Greens, UKIP, loony party, or Sinn Fein up here
Pretty wet here, too. Doesn't help in getting the youth vote out, alas.
I think those 'evil' pensioners will give the Tories the edge and vote them to victory. The old people I know are usually up at 4 am or 4 30 am if they're having a lie in
Most of them have probably voted by now and are probably sitting down to lunch.
It's a cliché, but if we're relying on students and youth, we're in trouble. Most will probably be in bed, and even then, they won't find the polling station without their iphones.
Traditionally, wet weather would lead to a Tory victory. As they were usually more wealthy, and could drive or hire a cab, vs. Labour voters having to walk or catch public transport. True story!
I wonder if the new Tory policy of winter fuel being means tested will affect the grey vote (actually one of their policies that I agree with, it shows something of the Tory supporter surplus that they would risk the grey wrath)
I'll have to have a peak at the voter registration sheets tonight again. Last time I turned up late in the evening to vote and the station was pretty dead. Looking at the sheet though only my own name and my father's (who'd been out earlier) had been checked off in my area to say we voted.
Pacific wrote: Traditionally, wet weather would lead to a Tory victory. As they were usually more wealthy, and could drive or hire a cab, vs. Labour voters having to walk or catch public transport. True story!
I wonder if the new Tory policy of winter fuel being means tested will affect the grey vote (actually one of their policies that I agree with, it shows something of the Tory supporter surplus that they would risk the grey wrath)
Are you saying that lack of umbrellas for Labour voters could cost Corbyn?
The grey vote, IMO, don't rate May, but for 30 years, they've been drip fed a diet of Labour are Marxists, winter of discontent will return, trade unions will pull the stings etc etc
so yeah, they'll hold their noses and vote for May despite the damage it could do to them.
On The Guardian front page at the moment is a rolling set of photos of the party leaders voting. One is of Tim Farron voting at The Stonecross Hotel in Kendal, where I just voted too, for him. In the rain, obviously.
I voted. For Alliance. I can overlook their very pro EU stance because they try to raise above the sectarian nonsense here to do grown up politics.
And funny story. My brother, the Corbynista who never ever shuts up about politics, didn't vote. He didn't even bother to register to vote! He says there's no point!
Whelp, in my opinion he's lost the right to complain. Now when he starts whinging about Trump/May or whatever I can shut him down right there and then.
Darkjim wrote: On The Guardian front page at the moment is a rolling set of photos of the party leaders voting. One is of Tim Farron voting at The Stonecross Hotel in Kendal, where I just voted too, for him. In the rain, obviously.
Lovely part of the world and the mint cake
Automatically Appended Next Post:
r_squared wrote: I had the great pleasure of voting against Paul Nuttall.
It made the whole experience very rewarding.
Future War Cultist wrote: I voted. For Alliance. I can overlook their very pro EU stance because they try to raise above the sectarian nonsense here to do grown up politics.
And funny story. My brother, the Corbynista who never ever shuts up about politics, didn't vote. He didn't even bother to register to vote! He says there's no point!
Whelp, in my opinion he's lost the right to complain. Now when he starts whinging about Trump/May or whatever I can shut him down right there and then.
Yeah. You ain't gonna get him in number 10 not voting.
Bit the bullet and voted Lib Dem. Might as well help the tea girl at the local Lib Dem office get a bit of a boost since I can't bring myself to vote Con/Lab. I don't agree with them on Brexit and Farron's a nob, but there's no chance of them winning, so no harm done.
Future War Cultist wrote: I voted. For Alliance. I can overlook their very pro EU stance because they try to raise above the sectarian nonsense here to do grown up politics.
And funny story. My brother, the Corbynista who never ever shuts up about politics, didn't vote. He didn't even bother to register to vote! He says there's no point!
Whelp, in my opinion he's lost the right to complain. Now when he starts whinging about Trump/May or whatever I can shut him down right there and then.
Yeah. You ain't gonna get him in number 10 not voting.
It's the EU referendum again. His kind didn't want to leave but didn't bother to vote and then cried over the result. What do you expect?
Ketara wrote: Bit the bullet and voted Lib Dem. Might as well help the tea girl at the local Lib Dem office get a bit of a boost since I can't bring myself to vote Con/Lab. I don't agree with them on Brexit and Farron's a nob, but there's no chance of them winning, so no harm done.
Was rather hoping you'd walk in there with a copy of Das Kapital tucked under your arm, start shouting power to the people, and then vote for the trade unionist guy
Future War Cultist wrote: I voted. For Alliance. I can overlook their very pro EU stance because they try to raise above the sectarian nonsense here to do grown up politics.
And funny story. My brother, the Corbynista who never ever shuts up about politics, didn't vote. He didn't even bother to register to vote! He says there's no point!
Whelp, in my opinion he's lost the right to complain. Now when he starts whinging about Trump/May or whatever I can shut him down right there and then.
Yeah. You ain't gonna get him in number 10 not voting.
It's the EU referendum again. His kind didn't want to leave but didn't bother to vote and then cried over the result. What do you expect?
People not voting gets my goat as well. Even somebody who turns up and spoils their ballot gets respect in my book.
Future War Cultist wrote: I voted. For Alliance. I can overlook their very pro EU stance because they try to raise above the sectarian nonsense here to do grown up politics.
And funny story. My brother, the Corbynista who never ever shuts up about politics, didn't vote. He didn't even bother to register to vote! He says there's no point!
Whelp, in my opinion he's lost the right to complain. Now when he starts whinging about Trump/May or whatever I can shut him down right there and then.
Yeah. You ain't gonna get him in number 10 not voting.
It's the EU referendum again. His kind didn't want to leave but didn't bother to vote and then cried over the result. What do you expect?
Feth it, cast my vote for Phil Wilson. Of the candidates, only Phil Wilson and the UKIP candidate are actually local. I dislike the Labour party, and Corbyn in particular even if I do agree with him on certain issues (nhs, renationalize rail, stop interfering in the middle east etc). But Phil Wilson as an individual MP has done right by my home town.
The Tory candidate is an Insult to our constituency. She's not local, she's exaggerated her career, she's lied about Phil Wilson's voting record, and she's far too young only 24 and still at university so she has little life experience (I'm only 26 myself, this isn't an age bias thing). And worst of all, she's made it clear that she's only standing to support Theresa May on Brexit. She has very little to say about the actual.issues directly affecting the constituency.
Dehenna Davison is the sort of candidate that a party nominates just to keep up appearances, someone who's not expected to win.but you need to look like you at least made an effort.
It's a moot point anyway though as sedgefield is a safe Labour seat. Coulda just drove.on past.the polling station on my way home and I wouldn't have gotten soaked and I'd still get Phil Wilson as an Mp
whembly wrote: When does the polls close and will we know the outcome today?
Polling closes 10PM
If in queues you can vite long as you in line before the cut off time. so that could delay count abit.
first declare about 11PM
we should know the result by 5-6AM for who got a majority, Misc seats and recounts declare after the Majority normally declared and we know who is running the nation.
(May differ if Hung Parliment and negotiations and coalitions come into play)
Ketara wrote: . I don't agree with them on Brexit and Farron's a nob, but there's no chance of them winning, so no harm done.
Well apparently a nob is a person of social distinction according to the dictionary so it seems that he has won you around.
In other news new polls results show no one is voting Con/Lab and LD are going to get a vast majority....
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Darkjim wrote: On The Guardian front page at the moment is a rolling set of photos of the party leaders voting. One is of Tim Farron voting at The Stonecross Hotel in Kendal, where I just voted too, for him. In the rain, obviously.
Did you see the extremist one on one action at the polling booth there...it appears that media turf wars have broken out now
I don't like to boast, but there's no sign of wikileaks or Russians in our election.
I suppose we're not that important anymore
Yep no reason to mess with the elections when we can shoot ourselves in the foot, head and stomach all at the same time anyway without foreign intervention!
May's so incompetent that they probably want her in.
Well I hope you all have solar power because Saturday the rest of the Middle East will stop selling us oil...
Yeah it's good to know that the media will provide a balanced view on the world. It's not like the Tories and New Labour didn't also meet with IRA representatives for talks. But with Corbyn being ahead of time that is to be condemned!
Well I've voted. Went with labour not because I really support them (would much prefer LD and much much prefer Greens) but to get any semblance of political discussions going in the area the Tory majority has got to come down first.
This is the sort of thing that bothers me the most about the conservatives, why do they think that it's perfectly OK to sell our core infrastructure to foreign, state owned companies.
I can imagine it's only because it passes the entire cost onto the population, so instead of paying smaller amounts through taxes, we get to pay more subject to the whims of a foreign state. It's the exact opposite of "taking back control", but they all seem to love the idea.
whembly wrote: When does the polls close and will we know the outcome today?
Polling closes 10PM
If in queues you can vite long as you in line before the cut off time. so that could delay count abit.
first declare about 11PM
we should know the result by 5-6AM for who got a majority, Misc seats and recounts declare after the Majority normally declared and we know who is running the nation.
(May differ if Hung Parliment and negotiations and coalitions come into play)
Darkjim wrote: On The Guardian front page at the moment is a rolling set of photos of the party leaders voting. One is of Tim Farron voting at The Stonecross Hotel in Kendal, where I just voted too, for him. In the rain, obviously.
Did you see the extremist one on one action at the polling booth there...it appears that media turf wars have broken out now
Darkjim wrote: On The Guardian front page at the moment is a rolling set of photos of the party leaders voting. One is of Tim Farron voting at The Stonecross Hotel in Kendal, where I just voted too, for him. In the rain, obviously.
Did you see the extremist one on one action at the polling booth there...it appears that media turf wars have broken out now
The only issue I'd take with the report is that it mentions about the popular vote but that's not really correct. Our system works on voting for a local MP and those with the most get to form a government. In almost all cases no party gets the popular vote majority and there are always more people that vote against the winning party than for it. The issue is that we have a first past the post system (FPTP) which means a 40-45%% vote share can get you anywhere between about 40% to 70% of the total number of seats. The system massively favour the two main parties (Tories and Labour) and mostly Tory because of the way boundaries are drawn for each MP. This makes it actually very hard for smaller parties (even those with 10% of the vote overall to get a good a representation in parliament). Hence a lot of people become disenfranchised with the system because their vote simply doesn't count in areas where one party has a vast majority. The reason our polls have difficulties predicting results is that each constituency for an MP can be widely different. If you poll people all in the same types of region then it can artificially raise the chances of a party winning because it might not be representative across the whole country (and noting the conservatives want to change boundaries to make the system more biased towards them needing less votes to form a government).
There are continuing calls to change the system to proportional representation as a fairer way of representing the populace in the parliament but Tories/Labour are resistant to the idea because they have the most to lose from the situation, however it does lead to the situation where a minority can dictate the future of the country. Regardless of the result this evening 60% (i.e. much greater than the result of the Wrexit result) of the voting population are not going to be happy tomorrow.
What will happen to Corbyn though if he loses? Kinnock got another chance after losing 1987, but the Blairites might have the knives out for Corbyn. They have been itching to use them for weeks.
The point is that Corbyn will look good just by not getting steamrollered.
Darkjim wrote: On The Guardian front page at the moment is a rolling set of photos of the party leaders voting. One is of Tim Farron voting at The Stonecross Hotel in Kendal, where I just voted too, for him. In the rain, obviously.
Did you see the extremist one on one action at the polling booth there...it appears that media turf wars have broken out now
Cameraman handbags because they're all in a bad mood getting sent up here to stand around in the rain
I assumed it was the Mirror and Daily Mirror reporters to coming to a disagreement. Do you think we can report them to the police for assault?
I thought it would be Mail vs Express, trying to get the shot of him looking most wide eyed and a bit weird. I have met a lot of gamers with that expression, when they get on their favourite army or somesuch, he just looks sincere to me.
I will happily concede he is a bit of a nob (based on the classical Young Ones usage), and I certainly don't agree with some of his views (the ones he generally keeps much to himself, except when asked about them, to the exclusion of everything else, for days on end, in sharp contrast to the treatment many other politicians receive), however he has seemed to me in my 2 years here to be an excellent MP. He is very active round here despite being party leader (and yes, they are so few MPs he could do it on XBOX Live, I still think there's probably quite a lot of work involved), and was, I think, great during the floods, popping up everywhere like there was 4 of him for a few weeks. Also has worked very hard backing a campaign to keep a local mental health unit open, and generally promote the area every way he can. Good enough for me.
Plus, I 've never actually voted for the winning candidate in a General Election, despite probably 6 or 7 goes, so I hope he makes it. The Tories have made a very strong push round here so they must think him vulnerable.
I voted DUP for the first time in my 22 years of voting. Had enough of SF and their lies. Wife's off the the polling station at the moment she's switched to DUP as well.
Feels like we are firmly back in the trenches in NI. Sad times
That does tally with some of the polls from the last day of the election campaign.
Scotland looks interesting. SNP might have lost a lot of seats (22). Going to be interesting to see who took those off them. If it is Tory and not Labour then that means Tories have been hammered in England.
We need to crack on with Brexit, we can't afford to be six months behind the EU.
However her position is likely to untenable. Best thing would be to go to the EU and ask for 6 months recess to ensure we can form a government. Doubt Lib Dems will make same mistake again (but will insist on a second referendum with Greens). Big question is whether Sinn Fein will drop not coming into parliament. Given they want open borders might be the first time we see them in parliament.
Labour + lib Dem + SNP. = 314. Con, 314, even with biggest there short. + mix, 318 maybe. Still short.
Only way for a majorty is con/lib and that's by 2. ..
Its tighter than tight.
Your ignoring Northern Ireland, DUP 8 MPs and possibly 2 Ulster Unionist will push Conservatives across the line. My vote have been the most important of the night!
If the DUP do play a role in forming a new government it'll be interesting to see if the papers that gave Corbyn a hard time over the IRA talks, will do the same with the DUP's connections to paramilitaries?
gianlucafiorentini123 wrote: If the DUP do play a role in forming a new government it'll be interesting to see if the papers that gave Corbyn a hard time over the IRA talks, will do the same with the DUP's connections to paramilitaries?
Whatever the result tonight, it begs the question of what Corbyn could have achieved if three quarters of his party hadn't spent the last 2 years trying to get rid of him.
Captyn_Bob wrote: So who will be pm?
Rudd?
Johnson?
I can't handle it.
If the Exit poll is accurate then it looks possible that Rudd Could possibly lose her seat.
Hopefully they can find someone better then Johnson as that could end very badly.
That said, the Exit poll is looking to have overstated the swing to labour so some of the at risk conservative seats may be safer then they first appear.
It's bizare. Everyone is trumpeting the idea that Corbyn might not go down completely in flames as a victory of some sort. If you can't win an election, or at least gain seats after something as momentous as Brexit, combined with a change in leadership in the opposition and six years in opposition, you really are not very good. Doing badly instead of abysmally is not a triumph.
I maintain my original prediction of about a thirty seat majority for the Tories. We'll see how it goes.
whembly wrote: It's simple majority to form a government... right? 326 MP is needed?
The party with the largest number of votes has the first right to form a government. If they have 50% or more of the seats, then they can declare themselves a single party government. If they have less than that, then they need sufficient support from other parties (be it in formal coalition or informal dealmaking) in order to pass legislation. If the party which won the largest vote cannot form a government within a set period, the next largest gets the opportunity. If there's still no luck then, you're usually looking at a second election.
Frankly though, all the talk of a hung Parliament is rubbish, I reckon. A quick look at where the leaders were campaigning tells the truth, Corbyn only ever visited two areas outside Labour safe seats, whereas May had it the other way around. Labour played defensively this entire election trying desperately to hold on to what they have whilst the Conservatives have been looking to gain new votes elsewhere.
Corbyn's entire gambit this election has been to try and consolidate himself sufficiently that he can hang around for another five years.
I was gonna type stuff to explain, then realised I only kinda understand it all in a handwavey way, so I'll let someone else do it.
Essentially, even not having a majority can still form a government, if you can persuade some of the smaller parties (EG the Northern Irish parties) to help you out a bit, dependent on what they want in return.
whembly wrote: It's simple majority to form a government... right? 326 MP is needed?
Yep (although due to some members refusing to sit in parliament the majority is technically 323). The 326 do not need to form a coliatlion though, the conservatives or labour just need to get the support of enough MPs to petition the queen to form the government. They will have to fight to get any legislation through though and would likely have to make some serious concessions.
Ketara wrote: Frankly though, all the talk of a hung Parliament is rubbish, I reckon. A quick look at where the leaders were campaigning tells the truth, Corbyn only ever visited two areas outside Labour safe seats, whereas May had it the other way around. Labour played defensively this entire election trying desperately to hold on to what they have whilst the Conservatives have been looking to gain new votes elsewhere.
Corbyn's entire gambit this election has been to try and consolidate himself sufficiently that he can hang around for another five years.
Absolutely, but given the annihilation it looked like Labour might be facing at the start of the campaign, he will certainly claim to have had a good election, and be able to ask the party to actually get behind him.
Ketara wrote: Frankly though, all the talk of a hung Parliament is rubbish, I reckon. A quick look at where the leaders were campaigning tells the truth, Corbyn only ever visited two areas outside Labour safe seats, whereas May had it the other way around. Labour played defensively this entire election trying desperately to hold on to what they have whilst the Conservatives have been looking to gain new votes elsewhere.
Corbyn's entire gambit this election has been to try and consolidate himself sufficiently that he can hang around for another five years.
Absolutely, but given the annihilation it looked like Labour might be facing at the start of the campaign, he will certainly claim to have had a good election, and be able to ask the party to actually get behind him.
Why should they? They've been quiescent and more or less dancing to his tune for a good six months now. The knives have been hidden for quite some time. They gave him his chance. The manifesto was written by him, McDonnell, Abbot, Milne & Co, the election strategy was decided by them. The party has been out hitting the streets as hard as they ever did in support of Miliband or Brown.
Corbyn has had as good at this as he could possibly get. He got gifted an opposing leader who talks like a robot and shies away from public confrontations, the mass support of the youth vote, a horrendously unpopular opposition who's been driving through six years of vicious cuts. If he not only can't win now, but actually loses seats, he's utterly bloody useless and they'll be well within their rights to boot his arse to the kerb.
Yeah, I can't blame Corbyn for the way the actual Labour campaign has gone at all.
Well, sorta. I can't forget that pretty much everything before the campaign (EG Corbyn is incompetent/communist etc) and after (Corbyn is the heroic plucky hero destined to win) is all narrative constructed by mass media to sell more papers, get more advertising, get more clicks, get more refreshes...
And that's without getting into the whole Cambridge Analytica allegations for the other side.
So yeah, I've given up on making predictions when it comes to stuff like this now.
Thing is, I'm actually more politically aligned with Corbyn's manifesto then anyone's. But in order to steal my vote, he needed to convince me that him and his frontbench had the skills and experience to pull it off. What he was proposing was the most radical overhauling of the British economy and state since Thatcher. And I know enough to know that if you don't have a top notch team behind something like that, you'll wreck the place.
But it quickly became evident that beyond the broad brush strokes, the policy was shallow and badly thought out, conceived more from ideology than careful thought. Combine it with a frontbench with less managerial and leadership experience than a Customer Services Manager at Tesco, and it was bloody obvious that they'd make a hash of it. And ultimately, I'd rather have the rather crappy mediocre state of things we have now than the utter dog's dinner I expected to result from Corbyn's Labour Government. I suspect I won't have been alone.
And that, he is rather responsible for. I could have indulged inexperience, or forgiven an ideological conviction. I can't ignore sloppy planning though, not with the stakes at risk.
Ketara wrote: Frankly though, all the talk of a hung Parliament is rubbish, I reckon. A quick look at where the leaders were campaigning tells the truth, Corbyn only ever visited two areas outside Labour safe seats, whereas May had it the other way around. Labour played defensively this entire election trying desperately to hold on to what they have whilst the Conservatives have been looking to gain new votes elsewhere.
Corbyn's entire gambit this election has been to try and consolidate himself sufficiently that he can hang around for another five years.
Absolutely, but given the annihilation it looked like Labour might be facing at the start of the campaign, he will certainly claim to have had a good election, and be able to ask the party to actually get behind him.
Why should they? They've been quiescent and more or less dancing to his tune for a good six months now. The knives have been hidden for quite some time. They gave him his chance. The manifesto was written by him, McDonnell, Abbot, Milne & Co, the election strategy was decided by them. The party has been out hitting the streets as hard as they ever did in support of Miliband or Brown.
Corbyn has had as good at this as he could possibly get. He got gifted an opposing leader who talks like a robot and shies away from public confrontations, the mass support of the youth vote, a horrendously unpopular opposition who's been driving through six years of vicious cuts. If he not only can't win now, but actually loses seats, he's utterly bloody useless and they'll be well within their rights to boot his arse to the kerb.
The polls had them a long, long way behind at the start. They had a chance to actually put some policies forward for a couple of months, rather than just suffer through Corbyn not doing a very good job on the PMQ shouting match each week, and it seems the distance has closed, at least somewhat. I'd say his supporters will claim that as something of a victory.
Just went through the current results. As a rule, the Tories tend to have swallowed about 2/3 of the UKIP votes with Labour taking the remaining third. If May's Brexit rhetoric is working that well up North, I expect it'll to do even better in the Tory heartlands.
When all is said and done, the Tories are still likely to be running the show. Probably. To get them out would require an outlandish collation of like half a dozen parties, some of them looking to break up the UK. It wouldn't work. But the Tories have been seriously damaged and now Brexit has been put in danger, for no reason at all. I'm depressed.
Future War Cultist wrote: When all is said and done, the Tories are still likely to be running the show. Probably. To get them out would require an outlandish collation of like half a dozen parties, some of them looking to break up the UK. It wouldn't work. But the Tories have been seriously damaged and now Brexit has been put in danger, for no reason at all. I'm depressed.
Well if you didn't have a reason to drink before.
Bottoms up! Might as well as everything else is going bottoms over boobies.
I wish I had enough booze in the house to get drunk.
There's always the possibility that it could go the other way and they do even worse. Meaning that maybe I'm wrong and Labour will get in. And this country will have to learn that their kind of policies don't work all over again.
I wish I had enough booze in the house to get drunk.
There's always the possibility that it could go the other way and they do even worse. Meaning that maybe I'm wrong and Labour will get in. And this country will have to learn that their kind of policies don't work all over again.
Well, it would at least show that the public had learned, temporarily, that Tory policies don't work.
We need to crack on with Brexit, we can't afford to be six months behind the EU.
However her position is likely to untenable. Best thing would be to go to the EU and ask for 6 months recess to ensure we can form a government. Doubt Lib Dems will make same mistake again (but will insist on a second referendum with Greens). Big question is whether Sinn Fein will drop not coming into parliament. Given they want open borders might be the first time we see them in parliament.
You think every member of EU is willing to give that to UK? What benefit that gives to them? UK has the 2 year deadline and doubtful they get a day more than that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW out of curiosity is it normal expected result for single group get majority and anything other than that is abnormal in UK? As in Finland one party getting more than 25% would be huge victory. One party getting absolute majority would be unheard of in here. 2 parties combining for majority is pretty rare I think. Usually it's 3 parties needed to form a goverment strong enough it won't breeze over by one or two members missing critical vote of no-confidence.
tneva82 wrote: BTW out of curiosity is it normal expected result for single group get majority and anything other than that is abnormal in UK? As in Finland one party getting more than 25% would be huge victory. One party getting absolute majority would be unheard of in here. 2 parties combining for majority is pretty rare I think. Usually it's 3 parties needed to form a goverment strong enough it won't breeze over by one or two members missing critical vote of no-confidence.
For most of the past 40 years, we've had 3 party politics (the rest pretty irrelevant), whereby 1 party rarely gets the majority of votes, but because of First Past the Post, does get the majority of seats and so forms a majority government, UKIP made it four party politics for a while, in terms of vote share at least. In 2010 when no party got an overall majority, we had a coalition of 2 parties to form the majority.
What has changed tonight, is (in England at least) we are back to 2 party politics. The Lib Dems were more or less wiped out 2 years ago and have made very little ground back, and now UKIP have lost virtually all of the 10% or so the vote share they had, so it's now just the Tories and Labour. Those leaving UKIP have split between the Tories and Labour a lot more evenly than was expected (though still in the Tories favour), hence what we currently seem to be heading for, which is a reduced Tory majority / no majority at all. Scotland has saved the Tories, lots of ramifications up there too.
We could be seeing Prime Minister Boris by the weekend. Not saying May will resign, I think under just about any other circumstances she would be forced out for making such a catastrophic mistake, but there is a strong argument which says Brexit talks start in week, probably not the best time for a leadership election.
If he is, the last 2 tory PMs are 2/2 on really, really fething up, can Boris break the pattern?
Well done Tim, just
And regardless of anything else, turnout was up almost everywhere, so yay democracy.
Darkjim wrote: Not saying May will resign, I think under just about any other circumstances she would be forced out for making such a catastrophic mistake, but there is a strong argument which says Brexit talks start in week, probably not the best time for a leadership election.
That argument would rely on the Tories putting stability of the country ahead of the party, something which they have already demonstrated an inability to do twice within a year.
I hope the names of Cameron and May are remembered for a long time for the catastrophic chaos they have inflicted upon the country - and that the country remembers for a long time that Tories will ALWAYS put their party and their donors before the needs of the country. Strong and stable? Dear lord, if the future weren't so worrying this result would be hilarious.
I expect we'll see Theresa May either fall on her sword or knifed in the back before the day is out.
Either way, she just blew it, big time. And I for one can't help but feel we've all just dodged a bullet, even if my man didn't win. Perhaps we can now wind up with a Tory leader not pandering to the very worst her party attracts?
So Scotland has gone more Tory and England has gone a bit more Labour. Some people are saying this is a rejection of isolationism. Pro unionism in Scotland and against a hard brexit elsewhere.
If the Tory party form a government supported by the DUP, which looks likely, they will STILL be in a minority on anything that's subject to EVEL, which the DUP and dozen-odd Scottish Tories can't vote on. Like the NHS, for example.
And Brexit? Brexit negotiations start in a week. Possibly with the downing street cat, who looks like being the only creature with a reasonable certainty of staying there. Expect tough talk about inport/export duties on Whiskas.
Oh, no wait, I think with EVEL the Torys have a majority in England.
I think the country needs a little yoga time. The Tory party are the largest party by a long way. Labour have done well no doubt but defeat is never victory no matter how hard you spin it. Corbyn is an old man. 5 years will he still be PM material? (If a career protester ever was)
Cons can form a government quite easily.
Situation is far from ideal in anyone's book. Apart from people who thrive off chaos. But it's workable. Let's relax and let the winners take a look around.
New election: A new general election could be called as early as August if parties fail to form a government. The Queen’s Speech, setting out the government’s agenda, is due on June 19, in just 10 days. If a government cannot pass its agenda it has 14 days to try again or a new election is called
welshhoppo wrote: Con and DUP will take it to at least 325. Considering Sinn Fenn don't actually take their seats it's workable.
SNP got shafted though, losing that many seats in 2 years shows that Scotland is sick of Indyref2.
SNP yeah, they got a clear message. Salmon, deputy leader, even I think Westminster leader down too.
Scotland told them to I'm thinking concentrate on Scotland and not independence.
Also...
Just saw some figures. Nutell, UKIP vote down 26%. They where 7k behind second place labour, con took it with least 10k majority and UKIP got left on 3k.
wuestenfux wrote: What the hell is going on in UK.
Strengthening Brexit talks was the aim, but now Brexit talks seem to get washed.
You've got to remember almost half the country was against Brexit.
Another emerging narrative is that the collapse in UKIP support was not anti-EU conservatives going home, it was anti-EU Labour voters going home.
A lot of the reason for people voting to leave the EU was because they were disgruntled working class in bad circumstances that they blamed on globalisation, the EU and the urban elite who like it. Corbyn for the first time in a generation offers a genuinely left-wing vision.
Why do they bother?
They stand and get never attend, never do anything. Local people get zero representative members, and do we still pay them a nice salary?
...
Also Mansfield. Labour MP who held since 1987 is out replaced by conservative. 30 years, one MP in every election.
Damn...
I gotta also say that's a very very long time to be in... Term limits, new blood anyone?
tneva82 wrote: BTW out of curiosity is it normal expected result for single group get majority and anything other than that is abnormal in UK? As in Finland one party getting more than 25% would be huge victory. One party getting absolute majority would be unheard of in here. 2 parties combining for majority is pretty rare I think. Usually it's 3 parties needed to form a goverment strong enough it won't breeze over by one or two members missing critical vote of no-confidence.
For most of the past 40 years, we've had 3 party politics (the rest pretty irrelevant), whereby 1 party rarely gets the majority of votes, but because of First Past the Post, does get the majority of seats and so forms a majority government, UKIP made it four party politics for a while, in terms of vote share at least. In 2010 when no party got an overall majority, we had a coalition of 2 parties to form the majority.
What has changed tonight, is (in England at least) we are back to 2 party politics. The Lib Dems were more or less wiped out 2 years ago and have made very little ground back, and now UKIP have lost virtually all of the 10% or so the vote share they had, so it's now just the Tories and Labour. Those leaving UKIP have split between the Tories and Labour a lot more evenly than was expected (though still in the Tories favour), hence what we currently seem to be heading for, which is a reduced Tory majority / no majority at all. Scotland has saved the Tories, lots of ramifications up there too.
Thanks for the explanation. For Finn when we have 3-4 big parties fighting between 15-23% shares plus smaller ones <10% and system that doesn't give any huge boost to seats compared to % they got(I think last had 0.1% difference with 1 seat more for the smaller party) idea of one party having absolute majority feels unusual. Don't think we have ever had that in Finland! It's always 2 big ones(maybe 3 now that there has been 4 big ones) and n smaller ones combining.
welshhoppo wrote: Con and DUP will take it to at least 325. Considering Sinn Fenn don't actually take their seats it's workable.
SNP got shafted though, losing that many seats in 2 years shows that Scotland is sick of Indyref2.
SNP yeah, they got a clear message. Salmon, deputy leader, even I think Westminster leader down too.
Scotland told them to I'm thinking concentrate on Scotland and not independence.
Also...
Just saw some figures. Nutell, UKIP vote down 26%. They where 7k behind second place labour, con took it with least 10k majority and UKIP got left on 3k.
There dead Jim..
That's because UKIP lived the dream. They are the dog that caught a car and returned it to its owner.
But it's not just Scotland, it looks like this whole country is littered with cracks. North/South divide, Indyref2/Unionist divide, Young/Old Divide and Remainer/Leaver divide. And a lot of it is caused by mass finger pointing. Some of the comments I've seen from people are disgusting. You have Remainers calling Leavists bigoted racists, I've seen Labour supports call Tory supporters murders, I've seen Tory supports tell labour supports they are Marxist bigots. The list just goes on and on.
And it has really shown in this election. We need a break and some couples therapy.
welshhoppo wrote: Con and DUP will take it to at least 325. Considering Sinn Fenn don't actually take their seats it's workable.
SNP got shafted though, losing that many seats in 2 years shows that Scotland is sick of Indyref2.
SNP yeah, they got a clear message. Salmon, deputy leader, even I think Westminster leader down too.
Scotland told them to I'm thinking concentrate on Scotland and not independence.
Also...
Just saw some figures. Nutell, UKIP vote down 26%. They where 7k behind second place labour, con took it with least 10k majority and UKIP got left on 3k.
There dead Jim..
That's because UKIP lived the dream. They are the dog that caught a car and returned it to its owner.
But it's not just Scotland, it looks like this whole country is littered with cracks. North/South divide, Indyref2/Unionist divide, Young/Old Divide and Remainer/Leaver divide. And a lot of it is caused by mass finger pointing. Some of the comments I've seen from people are disgusting. You have Remainers calling Leavists bigoted racists, I've seen Labour supports call Tory supporters murders, I've seen Tory supports tell labour supports they are Marxist bigots. The list just goes on and on.
And it has really shown in this election. We need a break and some couples therapy.
We need a few years to try and close those cracks not a new election in 1-2 months.
Well this really had turned into quite a mess. At least, hopefully the DUP will make it big quite as big a mess as it could have been.
Bit all things being equal, for the way things are right now, my guy says we needed a solid majority, either Labour or Tory than something as weak as we have.
If the Tory party form a government supported by the DUP, which looks likely, they will STILL be in a minority on anything that's subject to EVEL, which the DUP and dozen-odd Scottish Tories can't vote on. Like the NHS, for example.
And Brexit? Brexit negotiations start in a week. Possibly with the downing street cat, who looks like being the only creature with a reasonable certainty of staying there. Expect tough talk about inport/export duties on Whiskas.
Oh, no wait, I think with EVEL the Torys have a majority in England.
I'm very confused.
Did EVEL actually come into effect? It looks like it's all just consultations and posturing at the moment?
Compel wrote: Well this really had turned into quite a mess. At least, hopefully the DUP will make it big quite as big a mess as it could have been.
Bit all things being equal, for the way things are right now, my guy says we needed a solid majority, either Labour or Tory than something as weak as we have.
We need a majority.
Labour. Con, coalition, do not matter at this point. Wr just need a strong, and fairly stable government.
Not a minority that collapses on one bad vote.
Congratulations have to be given to Corbyn for his campaign, his party did far better than I expected.
The climate at the moment seems to favour the political insurgent; Trumpy, Macron and Corbyn have defined the odds in elections and posted higher numbers than expected.
What implications will this have on the edifice that is Merkel? Who knows.
I think we can definitely say that Momentum have completed their takeover of Labour now though, I anticipate that hard line, left wing policies will define Labour for a while at least.
Like all of us I am looking for the glimmers of hope for my own personal preference.
Teresa May conducted one of the worst Conservative campaigns in memory and still leads the biggest party which looks like it can form the government with help from the DUP.
Therefore, I think the signs are that right wing positions on the issues are still very popular amongst the voters.
With a better leader (Ruth Davidson perhaps?) I can still see potential for a bright future for the Conservatives despite being in government, and not a return to the 'toxic tory' years of IDS and Michael Howard..
One final thought, is there anything more glorious than Alex Salmond loosing his seat to a Tory? Haha!
I wasn't a fan of Corbyn but seeing the original vermin party, whose nonsense has already resulted in Brexit, get such a bloody nose is really quite glorious.
The light of the very poorest, the gutting of the NHS, education and the police, the unnecessary continuation of an austerity policy that has shrunk the economy aren't going to be solved by this election, tragically, but simply the look on the prominent Tories' faces has made it all worth it.
But the best thing about this is that young people have effectively fought back against the depredations of the old, who have been steadily kicking the ladders out from under them over the last seven years.
I'm welcoming the chaos. We deserve this for a little while.
ekwatts wrote: I wasn't a fan of Corbyn but seeing the original vermin party, whose nonsense has already resulted in Brexit, get such a bloody nose is really quite glorious.
The light of the very poorest, the gutting of the NHS, education and the police, the unnecessary continuation of an austerity policy that has shrunk the economy aren't going to be solved by this election, tragically, but simply the look on the prominent Tories' faces has made it all worth it.
But the best thing about this is that young people have effectively fought back against the depredations of the old, who have been steadily kicking the ladders out from under them over the last seven years.
I'm welcoming the chaos. We deserve this for a little while.
Ladders have been kicked away for at least 20 years.
That's a good point, because all those Scottish Tory MPs won't be able to vote on a lot of stuff because of EVEL.
According to the BBC numbers the Tories have a much healthier lead just considering England.
297 MPs to 235 of everyone else combined in fact. (1 left to declare due to lazy vote counters :-p)
That's a good point, because all those Scottish Tory MPs won't be able to vote on a lot of stuff because of EVEL.
According to the BBC numbers the Tories have a much healthier lead just considering England.
297 MPs to 235 of everyone else combined in fact. (1 left to declare due to lazy vote counters :-p)
Still a disaster for My, whatever way you look at it. The 'serious' politician got less than Call Me Dave's 2nd hand car salesman pitch.
I'd say that the vote gives a very mixed message if UK wants to Brexit at all.
I think that is a bit of a stretch and I am a remainer! Both Labour and Conservative are firmly in favour of Brexit, between them they got the lions share of the vote.
The fact that SNP, who are vocally anti Brexit, lost so many votes would lead me to conclude the opposite i.e. that many remainers ahave come to terms with Brexit in some form.
No, I'd be pretty certain that the SNP drop is due to "we don't want a second independence referendum" rather than the EU referendum. Scotland was majority remain.
So, putting aside the bonkers idea of the DUP going into coalition with Labour, which won't happen regardless of how funny it is, how long do you think it will take the DUP and Tory party to fall out so acrimoniously that the entire edifice comes crashing down again? 1 week? 2? Couple months? A year?
After 'Corbyn spoke to the IRA every day for decades because he's terrorist-loving commie maniac', I'll be looking forward to the press relelntlessly drawing attention to the days when later DUP politicians set up Ulster Resisitance and were smuggling RPGs into mainland Britain with the UVF.
For what it's worth, I think bringing people who have abandoned violence in favour of diplomacy into politics is a good thing, but in the interests of balance and all that.
Graphite wrote: No, I'd be pretty certain that the SNP drop is due to "we don't want a second independence referendum" rather than the EU referendum. Scotland was majority remain.
So, putting aside the bonkers idea of the DUP going into coalition with Labour, which won't happen regardless of how funny it is, how long do you think it will take the DUP and Tory party to fall out so acrimoniously that the entire edifice comes crashing down again? 1 week? 2? Couple months? A year?
Yes I agree with that, but it does indicate that Brexit is not seen as the most decisive issue unlike the predictions. Unless Labour changes their stance on Brexit then I don't see how we can stay in tbh.
Everyone said a similar thing about the coalition with the Lib Dems as well though remember? The DUP and the Conservatives have been working together throughout this parliament and are used to negotiating with each other, only five of the DUP (other other opposition party MPs) have to abstain for 319 to be a flat majority by my sums, so I think a Conservative-DUP government could be quite stable.
The more ambitious policies such as the expansion of Grammar Schools and reinstatement of the right to hunt foxes with dogs might have to fall by the wayside though.
I've been really quite cheerful all morning, can't think why.
Might have something to do with Paul Nuttall getting comprehensively, and humiliating smashed in my constituency. Or, it could be May having gambled, and lost, bit of an echo around here? Or it could be that a disgruntled tory party, propped up by a minor, but inconvenient party, is going to have to face the music of their decisions for the next 5 years. Or it could be the surge in young voters and UKIP returnees vindicating the left swing of the labour party and the possible end of blairism in Labour?
Or it could be the fact that the sun is shining, and I had a great nights sleep.
Graphite wrote: No, I'd be pretty certain that the SNP drop is due to "we don't want a second independence referendum" rather than the EU referendum. Scotland was majority remain.
So, putting aside the bonkers idea of the DUP going into coalition with Labour, which won't happen regardless of how funny it is, how long do you think it will take the DUP and Tory party to fall out so acrimoniously that the entire edifice comes crashing down again? 1 week? 2? Couple months? A year?
Yes I agree with that, but it does indicate that Brexit is not seen as the most decisive issue unlike the predictions. Unless Labour changes their stance on Brexit then I don't see how we can stay in tbh.
Everyone said a similar thing about the coalition with the Lib Dems as well though remember?
The DUP and the Conservatives have been working together throughout this parliament and are used to negotiating with each other, only five of the DUP (other other opposition party MPs) have to abstain for 319 to be a flat majority by my sums, so I think a Conservative-DUP government could be quite stable.
The more ambitious policies such as the expansion of Grammar Schools and reinstatement of the right to hunt foxes with dogs might have to fall by the wayside though.
Much as I voted for them. I do believe that the DUP will exert a vital moderating influence and curb things like the disagreeable fox hunting and other polices.
Much as I voted for them. I do believe that the DUP will exert a vital moderating influence and curb things like the disagreeable fox hunting and other polices.
The climate change-denying, ex-terrorist, women-hating, homophobic bigots are going to be a moderatong influence?
It's scary how close too the truth this is abut the DUP, I really think the Conservatives are going down a slippery slope openly aligning themselves with them. While politicians in the North are generally quite brash and incompetent the DUP reach whole new levels, just last year one of their MLA's stood up and proudly declared he didn't know AID's existed in the heterosexual community.
This coupled with the fact that in about a months time they will have their annual hate fest consisting of celebrating a battle against Catholics a few hundred years ago and burning pictures of political opponents, it truly will be an eye opening few weeks for those in Britain.
r_squared wrote: I've been really quite cheerful all morning, can't think why.
Might have something to do with Paul Nuttall getting comprehensively, and humiliating smashed in my constituency. Or, it could be May having gambled, and lost, bit of an echo around here? Or it could be that a disgruntled tory party, propped up by a minor, but inconvenient party, is going to have to face the music of their decisions for the next 5 years. Or it could be the surge in young voters and UKIP returnees vindicating the left swing of the labour party and the possible end of blairism in Labour?
Or it could be the fact that the sun is shining, and I had a great nights sleep.
All in all, things are looking up.
You could possibly add the fact that Rupert Murdoch is reportedly very, very angry to that list. It's definitely one of my reasons to be cheerful currently.
gianlucafiorentini123 wrote: This coupled with the fact that in about a months time they will have their annual hate fest consisting of celebrating a battle against Catholics a few hundred years ago and burning pictures of political opponents, it truly will be an eye opening few weeks for those in Britain.
Usually I'm in Israel for the 12th, but this year I'll be at home. Right in time for the renewed viguour with which bigots will march past my flat singing about wading in my blood. Happy days!
r_squared wrote: I've been really quite cheerful all morning, can't think why.
Might have something to do with Paul Nuttall getting comprehensively, and humiliating smashed in my constituency. Or, it could be May having gambled, and lost, bit of an echo around here? Or it could be that a disgruntled tory party, propped up by a minor, but inconvenient party, is going to have to face the music of their decisions for the next 5 years. Or it could be the surge in young voters and UKIP returnees vindicating the left swing of the labour party and the possible end of blairism in Labour?
Or it could be the fact that the sun is shining, and I had a great nights sleep.
All in all, things are looking up.
I agree with all of this, but I'm tempering that with an exceedingly deep concern about the political crapstorm that's about to ensue. We last had this in the 70's, and it was crucifying for the good governance of the country. Harold Wilson's majority of 3 leading to a re-election, every vote becomes a vote of no confidence, the shattering of the Lib/Lab pact.....
With Brexit looming, this could go seriously fething wrong.
Ketara wrote: Jesus Christ. Knock me down with a feather. This is a political upset and a half. I went to bed at 3am, and didn't expect to wake up to this.
We are deeply, deeply in the cacky. I would place good money on another election within a year.
I made it to 5.30 - what changed was - as you said, early northern results looked strong for the Tories, better than the exit poll, and so if that was reflected in the south, 40 seat Tory majority. Then that totally failed to happen, the swing from UKIP to Labour / Tories averaging closer to 50/50 than 30/70 in most areas. And now we have a bit of a pickle
Much as I voted for them. I do believe that the DUP will exert a vital moderating influence and curb things like the disagreeable fox hunting and other polices.
The climate change-denying, ex-terrorist, women-hating, homophobic bigots are going to be a moderatong influence?
I know very little on the DUP I admit, but I was hoping they might.. Now guess I'm wrong.
Full conservative can be bad... But moderated its less toxic and more agreeable and rational.
It needs something even I admit to keep it from lurching to its hardcore back bench.
Yes I did vote conservative and yes I do believe they can lurch too far right. Like I believe labour can push too far into the left at times.
Theresa May won't be calling another election. She took a risk and it backfired. She effectively committed suicide. It would be unbelievably dumb to try it again.
Another Tory leader might try it. But I'd advise against it. It looks like their pensioner vote has been damaged and the youth are waiting at the gates to take more scalps. And good on them, too.
As for Brexit, if this puts it in jeopardy... excellent.
Either May builds a government, or we're back to the polls. Even if Corbyn allies with the SNP and and the Lib Dems right now, he can't match Tory numbers. It's either an exceedingly shaky coalition with the Irish MP's, or we'll be back at the ballot booths in a month.
May can't survive another campaign. The knives will be out. So who will succeed in that scenario? I genuinely have no idea right now.
The climate change-denying, ex-terrorist, women-hating, homophobic bigots are going to be a moderatong influence?
Come on now. yes the DUP hold some social views we disagree with , but being dismissive and contemptuous about a party that increased its vote share amongst Northern Irish voters is equally bad in my book.
The influence that the DUP puts them in a strong negotiating position but I can;t imagine that they will be allowed to dictate a conservative government's social policy.
I think Jeremy Corbyn demonstrated excellently in his campaign that being constructive and refusing to launch personal attacks on your opponents is a much better way to talk about politics, and if this is what the politic landscape is going to look like in the UK then we need to start trying harder to understand each others viewpoints.
Another thought is what this means for the Labour party. The Hard-right has run into a lot of problems lately with their attempts to take over in the local party branches. I don't doubt that this is going to give them a massive boost.
We'll likely see the Labour party going more left-wing I believe. The centrists are going to get hammered.
I reckon Cable will replace Farron shortly, on the Lib Dem front.
The climate change-denying, ex-terrorist, women-hating, homophobic bigots are going to be a moderatong influence?
Come on now. yes the DUP hold some social views we disagree with , but being dismissive and contemptuous about a party that increased its vote share amongst Northern Irish voters is equally bad in my book.
Nah, I'll stay plenty contemptuous of people who literally march past my door singing songs about wading in my blood. Gets your goat a bit, that. Not to mention their views on women and homosexuals, their denial of science, or their deals with Saudi arms smugglers.
The influence that the DUP puts them in a strong negotiating position...
Darkjim wrote: ...You could possibly add the fact that Rupert Murdoch is reportedly very, very angry to that list. It's definitely one of my reasons to be cheerful currently.
If only I could see that for myself, my shadenfreude scale would explode in a fountain of glitter.
Calling the DUP homophobic, misogynistic, racist bigots isn't being a bit naughty. It's stating outright facts.
That the gutter press in the UK like The Sun, The Express and The Daily Mail tried to use Corbyns (idiotic, ill-advised) meetings with the IRA against him and for the Tories to instantly turn to the DUP, with their own dodgy links to loyalist paramilitaries, is absurd. But I understand that they don't really have any choice.
The climate change-denying, ex-terrorist, women-hating, homophobic bigots are going to be a moderatong influence?
Come on now. yes the DUP hold some social views we disagree with , but being dismissive and contemptuous about a party that increased its vote share amongst Northern Irish voters is equally bad in my book.
Nah, I'll stay plenty contemptuous of people who literally march past my door singing songs about wading in my blood. Gets your goat a bit, that. Not to mention their views on women and homosexuals, their denial of science, or their deals with Saudi arms smugglers.
The influence that the DUP puts them in a strong negotiating position...
I actually think it weakens it.
My father is Northern Irish so I do have a small understanding of the animosity between the parties there from him, but he has always tried to teach me the dangers that promoting division can bring.
The whole Irish peace process is built on working together with people who hold the opposite view from you and I think us in England could use some of the same in that regard.
How are the DUP in a weak negotiating position? They are effectively the kingmakers at the moment with the Lib Dems refusing all offers.
People have heard me bang this drum before, but all reflection, we all lost in last night's election.
May is hopeless, Farron is a weasel, and whilst Corbyn is a welcome change, he offers 1970s solutions to 1970s problems.
Nobody talked about climate change, automation, citizen's income, genetic engineering, the rise of artificial intelligence, and big corporations becoming more powerful than nation states.
These challenges, plus Brexit, is what Britain faces in the 21st century.
What we got was yesterday's men and women, with yesterday's answers to yesterday's problems.
We've all lost.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nfe wrote: After 'Corbyn spoke to the IRA every day for decades because he's terrorist-loving commie maniac', I'll be looking forward to the press relelntlessly drawing attention to the days when later DUP politicians set up Ulster Resisitance and were smuggling RPGs into mainland Britain with the UVF.
For what it's worth, I think bringing people who have abandoned violence in favour of diplomacy into politics is a good thing, but in the interests of balance and all that.
Agree AND disagree. The Tories didn't win and ended up weaker.
We all won.
But I still agree with all of your other points. It's just that an increased Tory majority was always the number one thing I was interested in avoiding, regardless of any other single factor.
gianlucafiorentini123 wrote: This coupled with the fact that in about a months time they will have their annual hate fest consisting of celebrating a battle against Catholics a few hundred years ago and burning pictures of political opponents, it truly will be an eye opening few weeks for those in Britain.
Usually I'm in Israel for the 12th, but this year I'll be at home. Right in time for the renewed viguour with which bigots will march past my flat singing about wading in my blood. Happy days!
Don't forget it's cross community though .
Kroem wrote:
Come on now. yes the DUP hold some social views we disagree with , but being dismissive and contemptuous about a party that increased its vote share amongst Northern Irish voters is equally bad in my book.
.
It's stating facts when it comes to the DUP, while they constantly rant about SF and the IRA they seem to forget about their own links to the paramilitaries. With it going as far as the UDA posing for pictures and holding meetings with them a few days after killing a man in front of his son and actively out threating people not too vote against them.
It can be hard not to show contempt when there are videos of your local MP loading a gun saying how he would take to the streets to kill nationalists if he didn't get his way.
I have always thought it would be funny if the DUP got involved majorly in the politics in the UK as a lot of the things they get away with over here just would not sail over there. It'll be very interesting to see how the control themselves.
Always liked Ming Campbell, Chuck Kennedy and Paddy Ashdown myself. Seemed like guys who had a bit of a clue. Unfortunately they've all either literally or figuratively gone next door.
Well, there's only so many ways events can unfold now.
1. May strikes coalition deal with Northern Irish MP's. Manages to somehow lead an exceedingly shaky coalition, with good odds it will collapse at some point (likely as Brexit wraps up), launching delayed Scenario 2.
2. May tries to form a minority government. Loses the majority of her votes, the knives come out, and she'll be replaced. Then there'll be another election once the Tories have established a successor.
3. May steps down now. The Tories pass the crown to Corbyn to hold whilst they sort out a successor. Corbyn tries to rule as a minority government. He'll generally fail, because he doesn't have anywhere near the votes, but he'll use the position as a platform to try and bounce off into another general election on the basis of 'I tried to pass this piece of legislation and the evil Tories blocked me.
Either 2 or 3 result in:-
a) People panic at the year long economic and political disturbances and go back to Tories.
b) Somehow Corbyn and co. demonstrate they've got the chops for leadership within that year and he wins a majority.
c) Corbyn gets another handful of seats, we have no clear majority again, and the whole thing relaunches. This is the most likely.
In other words, we could well be looking at years of political and economic upheaval right now, with nobody able to effectively pass legislation.
My bad, I though you meant the DUP's influence would make the government's brexit negotiating position stronger.
Ah Ok, yea I dunno what it would do to Brexit negotiations. They won't have to go to parliament for that again until they ave negotiated the final deal anyway though right?
It should make a hard border with the EU in Ireland less likely I would think.
I have always thought it would be funny if the DUP got involved majorly in the politics in the UK as a lot of the things they get away with over here just would not sail over there. It'll be very interesting to see how the control themselves.
It should be interesting! I'm glad things aren't so divided between countries this time though. It was worrying have a 'Scotland party' before and that has been addressed a little this time.
Interesting that Plaid managed to increase their seat numbers whilst decreasing their vote share. Tactical voting perhaps?
To be honest the election should give everyone a bit of pause about their entrenched positions. I listened to Nicola Sturgeon this morning, and whilst she was clearly disappointed, she indicated that, and I paraphrase, she would be thinking introspectively about the direction she will take.
May needs to do the same, there is a real opposition to the line she has taken over Brexit, and the endorsement she sought is gone. She must negotiate, and compromise in order to get anything achieved. Labour are back to being a real opposition party who will hold the Tories to account. That's probably for the best, they'll have time to reorganise the party, re-invigorate their manifesto, and be ready to take on what left of the Tories in the next General Election.
I'm happy with that, I want a real alternative to red, yellow and blue neo-liberalism, and we look to finally be getting that.
I'm trying to keep my joy under control though, as someone tweeted recently, laughing at May is like laughing at the captain of the Titanic, and we're the passengers.
We've got a pretty grim near future looming, we need to prepare.
My bad, I though you meant the DUP's influence would make the government's brexit negotiating position stronger.
Ah Ok, yea I dunno what it would do to Brexit negotiations. They won't have to go to parliament for that again until they ave negotiated the final deal anyway though right?
It should make a hard border with the EU in Ireland less likely I would think.
I have always thought it would be funny if the DUP got involved majorly in the politics in the UK as a lot of the things they get away with over here just would not sail over there. It'll be very interesting to see how the control themselves.
It should be interesting! I'm glad things aren't so divided between countries this time though. It was worrying have a 'Scotland party' before and that has been addressed a little this time.
Interesting that Plaid managed to increase their seat numbers whilst decreasing their vote share. Tactical voting perhaps?
That might benefit us to be honest.
To be fair, the fact that the Irish will put a heavy wight on keeping that vital border is good. Ireland needs a soft border.
Its a key trade border. We been doing a deal with the Irish on various things for decades and should keep that going.
You know, when I think about it, Theresa May did stress the possibility of a coalition of chaos with links to terrorism. So don't have much to complain about, really.
I bet she's regretting that walking holiday now. If they'd just gone to Marbella and got hammered by the pool for a couple of weeks, she wouldn't have had her political revelation about another election in the first place.
r_squared wrote: May needs to do the same, there is a real opposition to the line she has taken over Brexit, and the endorsement she sought is gone.
I disagree.
In terms of the public, I think the rejection wasn't of her position on Brexit but of the Conservative manifesto.
She had stated many times before that she wanted a hard Brexit, and continued to remain strong in the polls. It was only when the Conservatives unveiled support for fox-hunting, taking the homes from the elderly to pay for their care, policing the internet etc. that they began to suffer.
if anything, I'd argue that a hard Brexit is about the only thing in the Conservative manifesto that actually has public support.
Darkjim wrote: I bet she's regretting that walking holiday now. If they'd just gone to Marbella and got hammered by the pool for a couple of weeks, she wouldn't have had her political revelation about another election in the first place.
I have no idea how old my fellow dakka members are, but I lived through the 1990s, and the Tory backbenchers made life fething hell for John Major.
May is weak, and all it takes is for 20-30 nutters on the backbenches to mumble some discontent, and May will roll up the white flag.
May has got the go to form a minority gov backed by DUP.
Just back from palace, and speaking at number 10.
Heavy allies with the DUP. Named them least twice.
Brexit... Brexit.. Largest party, now lets get to work. DUP Con, referenced as natural allies. Certainty alot, no real refrence to tgr election result.
Rather quick statement, 2 minutes at most.
Time table on Brexit is staying the same. No delays on the progress.
Darkjim wrote: I bet she's regretting that walking holiday now. If they'd just gone to Marbella and got hammered by the pool for a couple of weeks, she wouldn't have had her political revelation about another election in the first place.
I have no idea how old my fellow dakka members are, but I lived through the 1990s, and the Tory backbenchers made life fething hell for John Major.
May is weak, and all it takes is for 20-30 nutters on the backbenches to mumble some discontent, and May will roll up the white flag.
That is the future we have to look forward too...
Yep, many of the same Bastards, and a next generation Rees-Mogg to boot
Very surprised by the result, I didn't realise Labour had managed to get such reach this time around, it must have reached a lot of youngsters.
And perhaps the first time that the front pages of tabloid papers (with the exception of the Mirror) haven't help determine the outcome?
As much as I like the fact that a Labour opposition might now be able to blunt the more Satan-worthy Tory policies, I don't think this is going to do much good in terms of the Brexit negotiations. May isn't going to be acting from anything like the position of strength she would have had, had she had an overwhelming majority, and the EU is going to know this when presenting their terms. Hard brexit or not, think there is every possibility that the next few years are going to be even more difficult than they might otherwise have been...
What's the job situation like in Germany at the moment?
Darkjim wrote: ...You could possibly add the fact that Rupert Murdoch is reportedly very, very angry to that list. It's definitely one of my reasons to be cheerful currently.
If only I could see that for myself, my shadenfreude scale would explode in a fountain of glitter.
That is indeed a good bit of news, will hopefully wind up that blood pressure a few points higher.
SNP votes declined because although Scotland is majority pro-EU, Scotland is also majority pro-UK. Article 50 having been triggered, the argument is not about whether we should leave the EU because we will be kicked out in two years anyway. Therefore a lot of people voted against IndyRef2. They might be induced to vote in favour of EuroRef2, though.
UKIP vote collapsed because their battle has been fought and won. The UK will leave the EU in two years. Job done. All the talk about "holding the government's feet to the fire" for a hard Brexit was worthless because (1) the government was already driving for a hard Brexit and (2) hard Brexit isn't as popular as UKIP pub bores think it should be.
It turned out that while the Tory Party included a vociferous minority of "kippers", a lot of UKIP voters actually were Labour supporters and returned to their traditional allegiance. They were joined by a lot of energised youth voters, who are staring down the barrel of £50,000 of debt by their early 20s if they go to university.
Despite the above, the Conservatives managed to increase their share of the vote considerably compared to 2015. In "normal" circumstances, this would have been a landslide for May. But Labour increased their vote share even more.
The Tories can form a minority government and get stuff through the Commons with the support of the DUP. The DUP, though, is not in favour of Hard Brexit. They know it will cripple the NI economy.
As well as this, May will be in the same position as Major in his later PMship, when he minute majority was constantly under threat from anti-EU Tory rebels. Except this time it will be pro-EU Tory rebels.
The fact is, the country is so divided that we have achieved the pernicious effects of a PR system of voting without the benefits -- genuinely representative legislative mechanisms that ensure all views are properly heard, and the heritage of politicians used to operating in that environment.
Whoever is a fan of "sovereignty" and wants the entire country to be ruled by the 10 members of DUP? It's ridiculous.
Can anyone see the government lasting more than six months?
Who will replace May as leader of the Conservatives? Will he or she be able to win the ensuing election anyway?
What if the left-wing parties formed a genuine progressive alliance? The Tories got 43% of the votes this time. That was just about all the right-wing votes available, I should think, plus people who voted for "stong and stable" because of Brexit and now must be very disillusioned.
Given this is the second (informal) coalition in seven years, perhaps it is time that the UK gave genuine consideration to forming a constitution with a strong element of PR voting.
I would like to see a People's House of Lords replace the current unelected body.
It's an improvement, the Tories gained a lot from UKIP.
I'm just glad we have someone that the EU can talk to about Brexit. A savvy politician (which we lack) would ask for a grand coalition until Brexit is over.
Has it crossed anyone's mind (collectively speaking), that perhaps this may be a further indication the Brexit issue should be revisited?
The UK government took a razor thin majority, basically within the margin of error, on a nonbinding referendum as a mandate from the heavens to push through the largest political, economic and foreign relations change in living memory for no real clear reason and with plainly inadequate information and no clear objectives.
Now that the scope of what that will entail is becoming increasingly clear, and that there's still no gameplan or clear expectations or...real objectives, and what will plainly be the inferior position at the negotiating table, perhaps being dead set on pushing that through after a hung parliament isn't a recipe for success?
Would there be value in stepping back, reassessing the situation with newer information and within the context of the current political reality, and asking "is this really still a good idea?"
Unfortunately we have already triggered article 50.
There is no way back, we have already jumped. It's way to late to have made sure we actually had a parachute on and not just a backpack like so many daffy duck cartoons.
welshhoppo wrote: Unfortunately we have already triggered article 50.
There is no way back, we have already jumped. It's way to late to have made sure we actually had a parachute on and not just a backpack like so many daffy duck cartoons.
That's not true at all. Article 50 can be revoked and everything can be rolled back.
I'm not sure why people keep saying this. Article 50 is literally the beginning of discussions as to how we leave. We haven't left yet.
I'm sure Europe would be immensely annoyed with us, but we could just turn around tomorrow, wave our hands in the air and say "Sorry chaps! We'd like to change our minds!".
People are now asking if an alliance with the DUP is a massive, political mistake. It could mean that the UK government is no longer seen as a neutral party in the talks to restore the Northern Irish assembly.
Vaktathi wrote: Has it crossed anyone's mind (collectively speaking), that perhaps this may be a further indication the Brexit issue should be revisited?
The UK government took a razor thin majority, basically within the margin of error, on a nonbinding referendum as a mandate from the heavens to push through the largest political, economic and foreign relations change in living memory for no real clear reason and with plainly inadequate information and no clear objectives.
Now that the scope of what that will entail is becoming increasingly clear, and that there's still no gameplan or clear expectations or...real objectives, and what will plainly be the inferior position at the negotiating table, perhaps being dead set on pushing that through after a hung parliament isn't a recipe for success?
Would there be value in stepping back, reassessing the situation with newer information and within the context of the current political reality, and asking "is this really still a good idea?"
Or, as a slightly harsher formulation of the same question, is leaving the EU worth tearing the entire country down?
welshhoppo wrote: Unfortunately we have already triggered article 50.
There is no way back, we have already jumped. It's way to late to have made sure we actually had a parachute on and not just a backpack like so many daffy duck cartoons.
A better analogy is that you've told EU that you're about to jump, and is preparing to jump.
You haven't left the EU yet, so saying that you've already jumped and that there's no going back is wrong.
Imo it would be for the best if the U.K. reassessed the situation and stayed in the EU, both for the EU and for the UK. The grass isn't greener on the other side, and it would save alot of money and headache on both sides. The last year has shown that alot of people who voted in brexit had no clue what they where actually voting for, and had no idéa about the repercussions that would come with leaving the EU (heck, we still don't know).
Can't help but feel that the main thing still pushing the UK towards Brexit is good ol' stupid pride: "We'll look like fools if we change our mind now". Ironically, you (especially May now) already look like fools, especially after this election. It's clear that the UK is heading into chaos and turmoil, which could be prevented quite easily, but you know what they say; pride has killed more people than the plague.
Well, now that lil game is finished, can we go back to the Brexit negotiations? EU is waiting and ready.
I laughed a bit when I read the negotiator was talking about "being tough but fair" with the UK matter. No kidding, you guys will totally get butchered in the negotiations, now that May showed how stupid she was by playing the same trick than Cameron. And lost. Seriously, if your politicians can't even see through their own Hubris twice, then they have no chance to stand their ground in face of an unforgiving EU.
Vaktathi wrote: Has it crossed anyone's mind (collectively speaking), that perhaps this may be a further indication the Brexit issue should be revisited?
The UK government took a razor thin majority, basically within the margin of error, on a nonbinding referendum as a mandate from the heavens to push through the largest political, economic and foreign relations change in living memory for no real clear reason and with plainly inadequate information and no clear objectives.
Now that the scope of what that will entail is becoming increasingly clear, and that there's still no gameplan or clear expectations or...real objectives, and what will plainly be the inferior position at the negotiating table, perhaps being dead set on pushing that through after a hung parliament isn't a recipe for success?
Would there be value in stepping back, reassessing the situation with newer information and within the context of the current political reality, and asking "is this really still a good idea?"
The Conservative government has to rely on the support of the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP)
The DUP make Trump look like FDR. If it's not in the bible, they don't believe in it. Remind you of any groups in the USA?
That is how much of a clusterfeth the UK is in right now
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Sarouan wrote: Well, now that lil game is finished, can we go back to the Brexit negotiations? EU is waiting and ready.
I laughed a bit when I read the negotiator was talking about "being tough but fair" with the UK matter. No kidding, you guys will totally get butchered in the negotiations, now that May showed how stupid she was by playing the same trick than Cameron. And lost. Seriously, if your politicians can't even see through their own Hubris twice, then they have no chance to stand their ground in face of an unforgiving EU.
I don't think I've ever agreed with you, but you're right - we're fethed
Vaktathi wrote: Has it crossed anyone's mind (collectively speaking), that perhaps this may be a further indication the Brexit issue should be revisited?
The UK government took a razor thin majority, basically within the margin of error, on a nonbinding referendum as a mandate from the heavens to push through the largest political, economic and foreign relations change in living memory for no real clear reason and with plainly inadequate information and no clear objectives.
Now that the scope of what that will entail is becoming increasingly clear, and that there's still no gameplan or clear expectations or...real objectives, and what will plainly be the inferior position at the negotiating table, perhaps being dead set on pushing that through after a hung parliament isn't a recipe for success?
Would there be value in stepping back, reassessing the situation with newer information and within the context of the current political reality, and asking "is this really still a good idea?"
Or, as a slightly harsher formulation of the same question, is leaving the EU worth tearing the entire country down?
A lot of people are getting carried away, but Article 50 was activated. The ship has sailed. Talk of staying in the EU is nonsense.
A lot of people are getting carried away, but Article 50 was activated. The ship has sailed. Talk of staying in the EU is nonsense.
Naah, if you go back and ask nicely, there will be no problem. Just some pride being hurt, that's all.
Unfortunately, your politicians won't allow it. They don't like looking like buffoons - even if that doesn't keep them from being actual buffoons and everyone else knowing it.
ekwatts wrote: Calling the DUP homophobic, misogynistic, racist bigots isn't being a bit naughty. It's stating outright facts.
That the gutter press in the UK like The Sun, The Express and The Daily Mail tried to use Corbyns (idiotic, ill-advised) meetings with the IRA against him and for the Tories to instantly turn to the DUP, with their own dodgy links to loyalist paramilitaries, is absurd. But I understand that they don't really have any choice.
I'm afraid it's worse than naughty your spouting down right lies. What people need to be aware of is we have a very angry IRA caucus along side the usual agressive left wing reaction every time they loose.
Most loyalist paramilitaries will find it particularly difficult to vote for the DUP, they call them the grand old duke of York, for deserting and condeming them when they committed acts of violence. If you care to actually look at anything written by loyalist groups you won't find much possitive about the DUP. In recent times because of the spike in SF votes they have asked their members to vote DUP and Ulster Unionist, purely to protect the union, they have their own parties for local elections they just don't get enough support to stand for Westminster. Ulster Resistance never killed or maimed anyone, the DUP ran a mile from them when they found out some members had imported weapons. Remember this has to be taken in the context of a society exposed to generations of violence.
The moral and social outlook of the DUP is conservative yes, but no more so than you will find in your local baptist church or chapel for that matter. The individuals quoted as climate change deniers don't reflect party policy and you will find similar views in other parties. Their party leader is a woman so misogynistic is an odd label for them.
They are Christian in outlook and I know some people can't have a Christian about the place and will vilify them at every turn but there it is I can't do much about that.
It's likely they could be a moderating influence on Tory policy particularly pension protection and NHS security. But we will have to see how much influence they get.
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MonkeyBallistic wrote: People are now asking if an alliance with the DUP is a massive, political mistake. It could mean that the UK government is no longer seen as a neutral party in the talks to restore the Northern Irish assembly.
Conservative Party have consistently stated they aren't neutral on the union. They are the conservative and Unionist Party after all
A lot of people are getting carried away, but Article 50 was activated. The ship has sailed. Talk of staying in the EU is nonsense.
Naah, if you go back and ask nicely, there will be no problem. Just some pride being hurt, that's all.
Unfortunately, your politicians won't allow it. They don't like looking like buffoons - even if that doesn't keep them from being actual buffoons and everyone else knowing it.
Polls show that the vast majority of the UK public has accepted the referendum result, and want the work to be started.
ekwatts wrote: Calling the DUP homophobic, misogynistic, racist bigots isn't being a bit naughty. It's stating outright facts.
That the gutter press in the UK like The Sun, The Express and The Daily Mail tried to use Corbyns (idiotic, ill-advised) meetings with the IRA against him and for the Tories to instantly turn to the DUP, with their own dodgy links to loyalist paramilitaries, is absurd. But I understand that they don't really have any choice.
I'm afraid it's worse than naughty your spouting down right lies. What people need to be aware of is we have a very angry IRA caucus along side the usual agressive left wing reaction every time they loose.
Most loyalist paramilitaries will find it particularly difficult to vote for the DUP, they call them the grand old duke of York, for deserting and condeming them when they committed acts of violence. If you care to actually look at anything written by loyalist groups you won't find much possitive about the DUP. In recent times because of the spike in SF votes they have asked their members to vote DUP and Ulster Unionist, purely to protect the union, they have their own parties for local elections they just don't get enough support to stand for Westminster. Ulster Resistance never killed or maimed anyone, the DUP ran a mile from them when they found out some members had imported weapons. Remember this has to be taken in the context of a society exposed to generations of violence.
The moral and social outlook of the DUP is conservative yes, but no more so than you will find in your local baptist church or chapel for that matter. The individuals quoted as climate change deniers don't reflect party policy and you will find similar views in other parties. Their party leader is a woman so misogynistic is an odd label for them.
They are Christian in outlook and I know some people can't have a Christian about the place and will vilify them at every turn but there it is I can't do much about that.
It's likely they could be a moderating influence on Tory policy particularly pension protection and NHS security. But we will have to see how much influence they get.
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MonkeyBallistic wrote: People are now asking if an alliance with the DUP is a massive, political mistake. It could mean that the UK government is no longer seen as a neutral party in the talks to restore the Northern Irish assembly.
Conservative Party have consistently stated they aren't neutral on the union. They are the conservative and Unionist Party after all
No disrespect to you or any other Northern Ireland dakka member, but I'd rather that Northern Ireland politics stayed in Northern Ireland.
ekwatts wrote: Calling the DUP homophobic, misogynistic, racist bigots isn't being a bit naughty. It's stating outright facts.
That the gutter press in the UK like The Sun, The Express and The Daily Mail tried to use Corbyns (idiotic, ill-advised) meetings with the IRA against him and for the Tories to instantly turn to the DUP, with their own dodgy links to loyalist paramilitaries, is absurd. But I understand that they don't really have any choice.
I'm afraid it's worse than naughty your spouting down right lies. What people need to be aware of is we have a very angry IRA caucus along side the usual agressive left wing reaction every time they loose.
Most loyalist paramilitaries will find it particularly difficult to vote for the DUP, they call them the grand old duke of York, for deserting and condeming them when they committed acts of violence. If you care to actually look at anything written by loyalist groups you won't find much possitive about the DUP. In recent times because of the spike in SF votes they have asked their members to vote DUP and Ulster Unionist, purely to protect the union, they have their own parties for local elections they just don't get enough support to stand for Westminster. Ulster Resistance never killed or maimed anyone, the DUP ran a mile from them when they found out some members had imported weapons. Remember this has to be taken in the context of a society exposed to generations of violence.
The moral and social outlook of the DUP is conservative yes, but no more so than you will find in your local baptist church or chapel for that matter. The individuals quoted as climate change deniers don't reflect party policy and you will find similar views in other parties. Their party leader is a woman so misogynistic is an odd label for them.
They are Christian in outlook and I know some people can't have a Christian about the place and will vilify them at every turn but there it is I can't do much about that.
It's likely they could be a moderating influence on Tory policy particularly pension protection and NHS security. But we will have to see how much influence they get.
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MonkeyBallistic wrote: People are now asking if an alliance with the DUP is a massive, political mistake. It could mean that the UK government is no longer seen as a neutral party in the talks to restore the Northern Irish assembly.
Conservative Party have consistently stated they aren't neutral on the union. They are the conservative and Unionist Party after all
No disrespect to you or any other Northern Ireland dakka member, but I'd rather that Northern Ireland politics stayed in Northern Ireland.
A lot of people are getting carried away, but Article 50 was activated. The ship has sailed. Talk of staying in the EU is nonsense.
Naah, if you go back and ask nicely, there will be no problem. Just some pride being hurt, that's all.
Unfortunately, your politicians won't allow it. They don't like looking like buffoons - even if that doesn't keep them from being actual buffoons and everyone else knowing it.
Polls show that the vast majority of the UK public has accepted the referendum result, and want the work to be started.
To be fair, one would think that in the last 12 months, polls would be understood to be...less reliable than previously expected. Polls predicted Brexit wouldnt happen, that Clinton would win, that Macron would probably not be the next president of France (at least at the election outset), and that May would expand her majority with a comfortable lead.
No disrespect was intended to you guys. Northern Ireland is a beautiful country, with some great people.
And here are my two final points about Northern Ireland:
1. Because of what happened in the Troubles, I hope you guys can understand why people in the rest of the UK shy away from Northern Ireland politics. I'm not picking sides or blaming people.
2. It is for the people of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to decide their future.
A lot of people are getting carried away, but Article 50 was activated. The ship has sailed. Talk of staying in the EU is nonsense.
Naah, if you go back and ask nicely, there will be no problem. Just some pride being hurt, that's all.
Unfortunately, your politicians won't allow it. They don't like looking like buffoons - even if that doesn't keep them from being actual buffoons and everyone else knowing it.
Polls show that the vast majority of the UK public has accepted the referendum result, and want the work to be started.
To be fair, one would think that in the last 12 months, polls would be understood to be...less reliable than previously expected. Polls predicted Brexit wouldnt happen, that Clinton would win, that Macron would probably not be the next president of France (at least at the election outset), and that May would expand her majority with a comfortable lead.
You think you have it bad with Trump? At least you guys actually picked somebody!
ekwatts wrote: Calling the DUP homophobic, misogynistic, racist bigots isn't being a bit naughty. It's stating outright facts.
That the gutter press in the UK like The Sun, The Express and The Daily Mail tried to use Corbyns (idiotic, ill-advised) meetings with the IRA against him and for the Tories to instantly turn to the DUP, with their own dodgy links to loyalist paramilitaries, is absurd. But I understand that they don't really have any choice.
I'm afraid it's worse than naughty your spouting down right lies. What people need to be aware of is we have a very angry IRA caucus along side the usual agressive left wing reaction every time they loose.
Most loyalist paramilitaries will find it particularly difficult to vote for the DUP, they call them the grand old duke of York, for deserting and condeming them when they committed acts of violence. If you care to actually look at anything written by loyalist groups you won't find much possitive about the DUP. In recent times because of the spike in SF votes they have asked their members to vote DUP and Ulster Unionist, purely to protect the union, they have their own parties for local elections they just don't get enough support to stand for Westminster. Ulster Resistance never killed or maimed anyone, the DUP ran a mile from them when they found out some members had imported weapons. Remember this has to be taken in the context of a society exposed to generations of violence.
The moral and social outlook of the DUP is conservative yes, but no more so than you will find in your local baptist church or chapel for that matter. The individuals quoted as climate change deniers don't reflect party policy and you will find similar views in other parties. Their party leader is a woman so misogynistic is an odd label for them.
They are Christian in outlook and I know some people can't have a Christian about the place and will vilify them at every turn but there it is I can't do much about that.
It's likely they could be a moderating influence on Tory policy particularly pension protection and NHS security. But we will have to see how much influence they get.
You can't deny that the DUP have links with loyalist paramilitaries to do so is just burying your head in the sand. The helped found the Ulster Resistance movement which helped the UDA and UVF acquire weapons, the openly have talks and pose for pictures with the UDA still and I'm pretty sure they endorsed men like Billy Wright a notorious sectarian murderer? Even if you want to pretend all of this never happened much of Corbyn's critics have said about him standing for a minutes silence to remember Loughgall yet the DUP have no problem with doing this for loyalist paramilitaries, pot and kettle seriously come to mind.
And for the climate change deniers not representing the party? They put forward one of them (Sammy Wilson) for the Environments ministers post so one must assume that is the party line.
welshhoppo wrote: Unfortunately we have already triggered article 50.
There is no way back, we have already jumped. It's way to late to have made sure we actually had a parachute on and not just a backpack like so many daffy duck cartoons.
However, your point supports my point made last year that this election should have been called before triggering Article 50.
Whichever way you butter it, that was a great day for British Democracy.
Decent turnout, especially from the 18-25 age group. Tories de-fanged with the slimmest of majorities. The gutter press' position as kingmaker has been shaken if not shattered.
Best of all? Best of all? The Tories will now have to negotiate Brexit without a clear mandate. Always a fractious party at the best of time, they may struggle to pass anything truly outrageous (like binning human rights, regulating the internet China style).
And they've got no scapegoat when it all goes Tits up. It's all on them. They have to clean up the mess they created in the first place!
Short term this could sting a bit, as I'm sure some nasty idiotic policies will still squeak through. But long term? The Tory party may have just signed its own deathwarrant.
Corbyn, Terrorist Sympathiser they said. And now a lame duck Tory backed up by former terrorists.....whoops!
People overlook the fact that there is two sides to the negotiations. It's all very well for people to talk about soft Brexit, or reining in hard Brexit, but British authority stops at Dover.
The EU 27 might offer us a deal and tell us to take it or leave it, even if it is a steaming pile of bullgak.
Whichever way you butter it, that was a great day for British Democracy.
Decent turnout, especially from the 18-25 age group. Tories de-fanged with the slimmest of majorities. The gutter press' position as kingmaker has been shaken if not shattered.
Best of all? Best of all? The Tories will now have to negotiate Brexit without a clear mandate. Always a fractious party at the best of time, they may struggle to pass anything truly outrageous (like binning human rights, regulating the internet China style).
And they've got no scapegoat when it all goes Tits up. It's all on them. They have to clean up the mess they created in the first place!
Short term this could sting a bit, as I'm sure some nasty idiotic policies will still squeak through. But long term? The Tory party may have just signed its own deathwarrant.
Corbyn, Terrorist Sympathiser they said. And now a lame duck Tory backed up by former terrorists.....whoops!
All good points except the point about the power of the papers. Newspaper readership and sales have been declining in this country for years.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: People overlook the fact that there is two sides to the negotiations. It's all very well for people to talk about soft Brexit, or reining in hard Brexit, but British authority stops at Dover.
The EU 27 might offer us a deal and tell us to take it or leave it, even if it is a steaming pile of bullgak.
Whichever way you butter it, that was a great day for British Democracy.
Decent turnout, especially from the 18-25 age group. Tories de-fanged with the slimmest of majorities. The gutter press' position as kingmaker has been shaken if not shattered.
Best of all? Best of all? The Tories will now have to negotiate Brexit without a clear mandate. Always a fractious party at the best of time, they may struggle to pass anything truly outrageous (like binning human rights, regulating the internet China style).
And they've got no scapegoat when it all goes Tits up. It's all on them. They have to clean up the mess they created in the first place!
Short term this could sting a bit, as I'm sure some nasty idiotic policies will still squeak through. But long term? The Tory party may have just signed its own deathwarrant.
Corbyn, Terrorist Sympathiser they said. And now a lame duck Tory backed up by former terrorists.....whoops!
All good points except the point about the power of the papers. Newspaper readership and sales have been declining in this country for years.
They still have an insidious online presence. Lies and bile aren't on the news stands. They're popping up on your newsfeed.
I don't mean or imply a link between the gutter press and Britain First, but look at how Biffers manipulate social media....
Sarouan wrote: Is the DUP's reputation that bad? I don't know them, so forgive my ignorance.
The suggestions is that they have some old links to unionist paramilitaries and terrorist actions back in the day when we all had to remember not to stand next to bins in case they blew up.
Recently they have been involved with a renewable heat scandal where they paid people to use wood pellets. Problem was that it wasn't a subsidy and they were paying about 1.6 times the amount of money than it did to buy the pellets and resulted in people basically heating empty barns because it was free cash. Not only this but they allowed contracts (and the suggestion even after they knew there was a problem) to continue to be signed and over the period of the contracts it's going to cost NI in the region of £0.5bn overall. I've also heard accusations/suggestions of fraud that once known there was a flaw in the contract the schemes were still continued and promoted to DUP supporters (i.e. unionists) whilst cutting out Sinn Fein (i.e. Irish nationalist supporters). Problem is that the head of DUP was in charge of the whole thing and Sinn Fein believe she knew what was going on and didn't act and therefore refuse to deal with her causing the NI assembly to collapse. This is concerning that they are not about to join in a power share with the government.
On top of this DUP are heavily anti-liberal when it comes to gay marriage, abortion and so on.
Sarouan wrote: Is the DUP's reputation that bad? I don't know them, so forgive my ignorance.
The suggestions is that they have some old links to unionist paramilitaries and terrorist actions back in the day when we all had to remember not to stand next to bins in case they blew up.
Recently they have been involved with a renewable heat scandal where they paid people to use wood pellets. Problem was that it wasn't a subsidy and they were paying about 1.6 times the amount of money than it did to buy the pellets and resulted in people basically heating empty barns because it was free cash. Not only this but they allowed contracts (and the suggestion even after they knew there was a problem) to continue to be signed and over the period of the contracts it's going to cost NI in the region of £0.5bn overall. I've also heard accusations/suggestions of fraud that once known there was a flaw in the contract the schemes were still continued and promoted to DUP supporters (i.e. unionists) whilst cutting out Sinn Fein (i.e. Irish nationalist supporters). Problem is that the head of DUP was in charge of the whole thing and Sinn Fein believe she knew what was going on and didn't act and therefore refuse to deal with her causing the NI assembly to collapse. This is concerning that they are not about to join in a power share with the government.
On top of this DUP are heavily anti-liberal when it comes to gay marriage, abortion and so on.
They are hence treated with some suspicion.
A good summary. What's their stance on the EU? Were they Remain or Leave? I can't remember.
A lot of people are getting carried away, but Article 50 was activated. The ship has sailed. Talk of staying in the EU is nonsense.
Naah, if you go back and ask nicely, there will be no problem. Just some pride being hurt, that's all.
Unfortunately, your politicians won't allow it. They don't like looking like buffoons - even if that doesn't keep them from being actual buffoons and everyone else knowing it.
It's probably going to take 10-15 years. The younger population do appear to be finding a voice and it is apparent that they don't really like what they see. *If* people carry the same views throughout life then as the majority (not all) supporters of the EU are young; and conversely the vast majority of Wrexit supporters are old then there will be a dynamic shift in time towards rejoining the EU. The reviews indicate that the vast majority of Remain vote areas favoured Labour gains and the Leave areas favoured Tory gains. Although Brexit didn't seem to be an issue it is odd that this has been in apparent in the statistics. It implies that there was still an undercurrent - perhaps Remainers are changing strategy, aim for a soft Brexit with open borders/open market/ECJ and ECHR access and then it makes life easier to rejoin in 10-15 years when they have the majority again.
Sarouan wrote: Is the DUP's reputation that bad? I don't know them, so forgive my ignorance.
The suggestions is that they have some old links to unionist paramilitaries and terrorist actions back in the day when we all had to remember not to stand next to bins in case they blew up.
Recently they have been involved with a renewable heat scandal where they paid people to use wood pellets. Problem was that it wasn't a subsidy and they were paying about 1.6 times the amount of money than it did to buy the pellets and resulted in people basically heating empty barns because it was free cash. Not only this but they allowed contracts (and the suggestion even after they knew there was a problem) to continue to be signed and over the period of the contracts it's going to cost NI in the region of £0.5bn overall. I've also heard accusations/suggestions of fraud that once known there was a flaw in the contract the schemes were still continued and promoted to DUP supporters (i.e. unionists) whilst cutting out Sinn Fein (i.e. Irish nationalist supporters). Problem is that the head of DUP was in charge of the whole thing and Sinn Fein believe she knew what was going on and didn't act and therefore refuse to deal with her causing the NI assembly to collapse. This is concerning that they are not about to join in a power share with the government.
On top of this DUP are heavily anti-liberal when it comes to gay marriage, abortion and so on.
They are hence treated with some suspicion.
A good summary. What's their stance on the EU? Were they Remain or Leave? I can't remember.
They were very much leave and spent a massive amount of money on it, I think they were the only official leave party in the North and I think there was some dodgy money donations involving a business with links to the Saudi's.
A lot of people are getting carried away, but Article 50 was activated. The ship has sailed. Talk of staying in the EU is nonsense.
Naah, if you go back and ask nicely, there will be no problem. Just some pride being hurt, that's all.
Unfortunately, your politicians won't allow it. They don't like looking like buffoons - even if that doesn't keep them from being actual buffoons and everyone else knowing it.
Polls show that the vast majority of the UK public has accepted the referendum result, and want the work to be started.
In other words they've changed their mind. They might change their minds again. To be fair, though, the time to have avoided the possibility of Brexit was before Cameron stupidly put it in his manifesto.
ekwatts wrote: Calling the DUP homophobic, misogynistic, racist bigots isn't being a bit naughty. It's stating outright facts.
That the gutter press in the UK like The Sun, The Express and The Daily Mail tried to use Corbyns (idiotic, ill-advised) meetings with the IRA against him and for the Tories to instantly turn to the DUP, with their own dodgy links to loyalist paramilitaries, is absurd. But I understand that they don't really have any choice.
I'm afraid it's worse than naughty your spouting down right lies. What people need to be aware of is we have a very angry IRA caucus along side the usual agressive left wing reaction every time they loose.
Most loyalist paramilitaries will find it particularly difficult to vote for the DUP, they call them the grand old duke of York, for deserting and condeming them when they committed acts of violence. If you care to actually look at anything written by loyalist groups you won't find much possitive about the DUP. In recent times because of the spike in SF votes they have asked their members to vote DUP and Ulster Unionist, purely to protect the union, they have their own parties for local elections they just don't get enough support to stand for Westminster. Ulster Resistance never killed or maimed anyone, the DUP ran a mile from them when they found out some members had imported weapons. Remember this has to be taken in the context of a society exposed to generations of violence.
The moral and social outlook of the DUP is conservative yes, but no more so than you will find in your local baptist church or chapel for that matter. The individuals quoted as climate change deniers don't reflect party policy and you will find similar views in other parties. Their party leader is a woman so misogynistic is an odd label for them.
They are Christian in outlook and I know some people can't have a Christian about the place and will vilify them at every turn but there it is I can't do much about that.
It's likely they could be a moderating influence on Tory policy particularly pension protection and NHS security. But we will have to see how much influence they get.
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MonkeyBallistic wrote: People are now asking if an alliance with the DUP is a massive, political mistake. It could mean that the UK government is no longer seen as a neutral party in the talks to restore the Northern Irish assembly.
Conservative Party have consistently stated they aren't neutral on the union. They are the conservative and Unionist Party after all
No disrespect to you or any other Northern Ireland dakka member, but I'd rather that Northern Ireland politics stayed in Northern Ireland.
Well therein lies a big part of the issue. For better or worse Northern Ireland is part of the UK and our politics is your politics. The welfare and stability of our province is certainly your responsibility much as you wish it otherwise.
The fact that we are the only part of the UK that has a land border with an EU member state makes it all the more important that NI politics should be a contributing factor in the Brexit process and not jut a poorly considered afterthought for a change.
When Mrs May suddenly recalls the full title of her party any time she happens to need the support of the Unionists it only highlights how much she takes their support for granted and ignors them the rest of the time hoping they and their politics will stay in NI. I for one am happy she's not getting it all her way. She's hitched her wagon to some of the most stubournly intransigent mules in the history of politics.
Generally I think this election was about "Who you definitely don't want" leading the country which is why we got such a shift back to two party politics. I don't think it will last though. I think both Corbyn and May have polarised views to the extent that people will now tactically vote just to not have them in power as much as possible. This appears to be at the cost of UKIP (no concerns from me) but also to a lesser extent some of the smaller Left central parties (e.g. Greens).
However the FPTP system still heavily favoured the Tories. Quick calculations show full PR would have given us the following result:-
Tories (276 seats)
Labour (260 seats)
LD (48 seats)
SNP (20 seats)
UKIP (12 seats)
Green (10 seats)
DUP (6 seats)
Sinn Fein (5 seats)
Plaid (3 seats)
So basically by the popular vote Tories have 45 more seats than they really deserve from voter representation). In a hung parliament the right would have about 294 seats compared to the lefts 338 seats. Hence we yet again have a parliament that isn't particularly representative of the voting population.
Sarouan wrote: Is the DUP's reputation that bad? I don't know them, so forgive my ignorance.
The suggestions is that they have some old links to unionist paramilitaries and terrorist actions back in the day when we all had to remember not to stand next to bins in case they blew up.
Recently they have been involved with a renewable heat scandal where they paid people to use wood pellets. Problem was that it wasn't a subsidy and they were paying about 1.6 times the amount of money than it did to buy the pellets and resulted in people basically heating empty barns because it was free cash. Not only this but they allowed contracts (and the suggestion even after they knew there was a problem) to continue to be signed and over the period of the contracts it's going to cost NI in the region of £0.5bn overall. I've also heard accusations/suggestions of fraud that once known there was a flaw in the contract the schemes were still continued and promoted to DUP supporters (i.e. unionists) whilst cutting out Sinn Fein (i.e. Irish nationalist supporters). Problem is that the head of DUP was in charge of the whole thing and Sinn Fein believe she knew what was going on and didn't act and therefore refuse to deal with her causing the NI assembly to collapse. This is concerning that they are not about to join in a power share with the government.
On top of this DUP are heavily anti-liberal when it comes to gay marriage, abortion and so on.
They are hence treated with some suspicion.
Ok......... first there is no political party in NI bar Sinn Fein who would claim the DUP are supporters of paramilitary groups. This is a nasty lie doing the rounds today. And Sinn Fein call the British army terrorists. The DUP have made many enemies with loyalist groups by condemning their every action.
The heat scandal was bad but it's certainly wasn't and there has never been any suggestion they promoted the scheme to DUP supporters and denied anyone else access to it. I can give you right now the names and addresses of IRA ex prisioners who are claiming from the scheme. Republican clubs are claiming from it!
Yes they are conservative socially and if you disagree with that well that's your right.
Truth is they are getting abuse because they are propping up a controversial government that's unpopular with the youth.
Despite the Tories winning, the narrative is against them, and very much in Corbyn and Labour's favour.
That's not just 'nyeah nyeah' from the peanut gallery at May pissing her majority up the wall, but her own backers and party.
Given the high youth vote turnout, that's incredibly important to the future of politics. Yes, their man ultimately lost. He's still resigned to Leader of the opposition.
All too easily the narrative could've been 'and the youth achieved nothing'. Such a narrative could've seen it being a fluke, a one off turnout rewarded with abject failure.
Instead, the narrative is showing that the youth vote is politically powerful. If you vote, you can, do and will make a real difference. That's only going to encourage greater youth participation in elections - and may even help get more boots on the ground during campaigns.
I'm genuinely excited for the future. The Tory/DUP coalition could easily collapse. We could easily be heading back to the polls in the next few months, especially if May is removed by her own party. And with the Youth Vote suddenly powerful and therefore desirable, we may see a shift in political priorities in all sections.
After all, the Elderly vote is time sensitive. Once the baby boomer start passing on en masse, you need to replace your party faithful from somewhere.
The younger the voter, the more long term you need to think to keep their vote.
Corbyn is going to kick May's arse all over the House during MP questions.
He's on fire. He's learned if you get a decent haircut, a good suit and a proper knot in your tie, and stop pouting, you can go a long way in politics.
On the subject of the youth vote, I am extremely glad to see the "voting never makes any difference so I don't bother" whiners have bucked up their ideas voted, and made a difference.
This election has been a bit surreal for me, what with working an average 12 hours, 6 days a week at the minute I almost forgot to vote! Then come this morning it took me a moment that I had voted when watching the news. Anyway, I am not shocked that things didn't go so well for Mrs May. Her Manifesto was a PR disaster that alienated a great many people and even myself (a non labour voter) liked a lot of the sensible ideas put forward by Corbyn. I do find it interesting that it has polarised the political parties to either the big red one or slightly bigger blue party. Yes it is a big blow for the Conservatives for now having to run with someone else, but if things go well and they join with the DUP (I know it is only for forced convenience). It could help strengthen the union with Northern Ireland whose polls waned a little with Brexit. Maybe they might better deal for themselves on the table rather than the usual Scotland, Scotland, and of course have we not mentioned forgetting Scotland. I didn't think we would see such a catastrophe for the SNP as had happened, particularly to the Conservative party. With Salmond out of the picture for good and Sturgeon on the ropes the SNP should focus on being a broader party rather than ramming down another independence referendum that is clearly not needed. Onto the Loony Democrats, all those who prophesied a resurrection of power and popularity they can eat humble pie. Glad to see Clegg resigned to history and the party on the brink of total failure. The current leader Farron is too slimy, he blames other politicians for not acting honourably yet will never answer a question faithfully himself. The Loony's hope of capturing all the EU faithful failed and shows at least we have more unity in the way forward with having Brexit even if we don't agree on which part is at the helm. It was no surprise that UKIP flopped and Nuttall abandoned ship. All in all and interesting election that was not so good for the Conservatives, over hyped as good but avoiding the fact they didn't win for Labour, SNP on the rocks and all the other small parties null and void. I hope Mrs May can make a good coalition and get the ball rolling for the immediate Brexit negotiations before any opponents throw mud at it and then blame her for the countries undoing.
On the local side:
You could not go physically 500 yards down a road without seeing a big blue 'Vote Conservative' sign. All the landowners were doing it, well it is a conservative heritage area after all, and goes without saying my long standing MP got re-elected again. Strangely there was not a single Labour sign at all, and even being a Labour free area I would have thought to have seen something. I did see some labour signs a little further out of my constituency but they had been vandalised. Stranger still the only other contender was for the Loony Democrats whose followers put up smaller yet eye catching signs next to the Conservatives. They looked exactly like those 'Danger to the environment' warning signs with the dead fish you see on tankers and I wonder if that put people off. Certainly did me.
My thoughts on the future:
Hopefully we see Brexit negotiations go ahead without hindrance from this election or by those who would use it as a scapegoat to try and stop it from happening. Corbyn is the clear opponent but whether he can keep such a strong face post campaign we will have to see. I find it funny he calls for Mrs May to resign, yet it was only last year that he faced even worse leadership scrutiny and was told to resign. Its interesting to see how his inner party opponents now gravitate to him. I think Scotland's perpetual referendum will be put on ice for a while as the SNP try to figure out what else they can focus on to claw back their losses. Has it been their high-water mark? Sturgeon certainly has a lot less political force now. Will UKIP cease to exist? Well the party might still be on paper but I doubt they will be in the news again. I think the Loony Democrats are dead in the water, and hopefully by the time the next election happens Brexit will be conclusive and Farron's twaddle will be officially meaningless. As for the Conservatives, it all depends on who they can/cannot join with but hopefully they will push on with Brexit. Whether they will win the next election is dependent on this, although by then I think the public would vote them out for the sake of change anyway.
Ok......... first there is no political party in NI bar Sinn Fein who would claim the DUP are supporters of paramilitary groups. This is a nasty lie doing the rounds today. And Sinn Fein call the British army terrorists. The DUP have made many enemies with loyalist groups by condemning their every action.
The heat scandal was bad but it's certainly wasn't and there has never been any suggestion they promoted the scheme to DUP supporters and denied anyone else access to it. I can give you right now the names and addresses of IRA ex prisioners who are claiming from the scheme. Republican clubs are claiming from it!
Yes they are conservative socially and if you disagree with that well that's your right.
Truth is they are getting abuse because they are propping up a controversial government that's unpopular with the youth.
No one is saying they are supporters. There are definitely suspicious links though. Saying they aren't there is like Sinn Fein don't have links with the IRA.
Well the British army did open up on civilians at times so it all depends on your point of view...
As for the heat scandal I'll just leave up these BBC articles and let people read them and research the links in their own time if they wish.
They are by far more than just 'conservative' they are downright homophobic at times (Tom Buchanan telling children homosexuality is an "abomination")
Or what about that people can't have abortions even unless it's life threatening and even those pregnant from rape will only be carefully considered (Arlene Foster, DUP)
And lets not forget that things like where they lobbied the national trust to include creationist 'theories' about the giants causeway being only 6000 years old.
ekwatts wrote: Calling the DUP homophobic, misogynistic, racist bigots isn't being a bit naughty. It's stating outright facts.
That the gutter press in the UK like The Sun, The Express and The Daily Mail tried to use Corbyns (idiotic, ill-advised) meetings with the IRA against him and for the Tories to instantly turn to the DUP, with their own dodgy links to loyalist paramilitaries, is absurd. But I understand that they don't really have any choice.
I'm afraid it's worse than naughty your spouting down right lies. What people need to be aware of is we have a very angry IRA caucus along side the usual agressive left wing reaction every time they loose.
Most loyalist paramilitaries will find it particularly difficult to vote for the DUP, they call them the grand old duke of York, for deserting and condeming them when they committed acts of violence. If you care to actually look at anything written by loyalist groups you won't find much possitive about the DUP. In recent times because of the spike in SF votes they have asked their members to vote DUP and Ulster Unionist, purely to protect the union, they have their own parties for local elections they just don't get enough support to stand for Westminster. Ulster Resistance never killed or maimed anyone, the DUP ran a mile from them when they found out some members had imported weapons. Remember this has to be taken in the context of a society exposed to generations of violence.
The moral and social outlook of the DUP is conservative yes, but no more so than you will find in your local baptist church or chapel for that matter. The individuals quoted as climate change deniers don't reflect party policy and you will find similar views in other parties. Their party leader is a woman so misogynistic is an odd label for them.
They are Christian in outlook and I know some people can't have a Christian about the place and will vilify them at every turn but there it is I can't do much about that.
It's likely they could be a moderating influence on Tory policy particularly pension protection and NHS security. But we will have to see how much influence they get.
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MonkeyBallistic wrote: People are now asking if an alliance with the DUP is a massive, political mistake. It could mean that the UK government is no longer seen as a neutral party in the talks to restore the Northern Irish assembly.
Conservative Party have consistently stated they aren't neutral on the union. They are the conservative and Unionist Party after all
No disrespect to you or any other Northern Ireland dakka member, but I'd rather that Northern Ireland politics stayed in Northern Ireland.
Well therein lies a big part of the issue. For better or worse Northern Ireland is part of the UK and our politics is your politics. The welfare and stability of our province is certainly your responsibility much as you wish it otherwise.
The fact that we are the only part of the UK that has a land border with an EU member state makes it all the more important that NI politics should be a contributing factor in the Brexit process and not jut a poorly considered afterthought for a change.
When Mrs May suddenly recalls the full title of her party any time she happens to need the support of the Unionists it only highlights how much she takes their support for granted and ignors them the rest of the time hoping they and their politics will stay in NI. I for one am happy she's not getting it all her way. She's hitched her wagon to some of the most stubournly intransigent mules in the history of politics.
I appreciate and respect the fact that as things stand, Northern Ireland is part of the UK.
I grew up during the 1980s when bombs were going off in English cities and people were getting murdered in Belfast in what seemed like a daily basis
As a result, I have no great love for Northern Ireland politics, prefer to keep it at a distance, and quite honestly, prefer not to have Northern Ireland politics cross over into mainstream UK politics.
But as I say, it's not an attack against any individual from there, as I've met some great people from there over the years, and it's a lovely country.
I hope people can see where I'm coming from on this.
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Kilkrazy wrote: Corbyn is going to kick May's arse all over the House during MP questions.
He's on fire. He's learned if you get a decent haircut, a good suit and a proper knot in your tie, and stop pouting, you can go a long way in politics.
On the subject of the youth vote, I am extremely glad to see the "voting never makes any difference so I don't bother" whiners have bucked up their ideas voted, and made a difference.
Well done! Welcome to the body politic!!
My daughter turns 18 in early October.
Young people voting is obviously a good thing, but let's not forget that young get jobs and houses, get old, and tend to drift to the right.
Given the high youth vote turnout, that's incredibly important to the future of politics. Yes, their man ultimately lost. He's still resigned to Leader of the opposition.
All too easily the narrative could've been 'and the youth achieved nothing'. Such a narrative could've seen it being a fluke, a one off turnout rewarded with abject failure.
I think this could be a blessing in disguise for Corbyn. May is going to be hamstrung and not be able to introduce any controversial legislation. Even a tiny revolt by her own back benchers will stop it. I think she can say good by to Grammar schools and so forth. She's got to try and get both sides of the Brexit argument in her own party resolved but there will be some like IDS that will want full hard-on Wrexit, whereas those that support the EU will see the way the wind is blowing and realise that if they don't soften it at all that the youth vote, after realising it has some bite, might become even more powerful and fall in behind Corbyn further (and lets no forget that in 5 years time that is more Tory voters that have passed away and more young voters coming into the system). As such May is likely to be punished either way she runs. That means Brexit is going to be a complete disaster with the economical issues that brings forward. Any possibility of promoting the Tories as sensible will disappear and Labour could be looking at a landslide. Top this off with if they have to slide up to DUP any argument that Labour would be a coalition of chaos would fall apart.
I know someone from Ireland and there view is the DUP agreement won't last a year because they basically try and take the Tories to the cleaners with their shopping list.
@whirlwind. I'm sorry but Sinn Fein are actually part of the IRA they don't even try to hide it. Their members are commerated on the same memorials and speeches given at IRA gatherings are always given by Sinn Fein members. Sinn Fein sell IRA branded clothing and pictures in their shops. Many of their members are open about terrorist actions they have taken part in.
There is none of this with the DUP. You do realise that paramilitaries are people who live in our communities they are brothers, sons, fathers pretty much everyone and every organisation will have had or have people connected to paramilitaries in them or associated with them to some degree. But 99% abhored the violence. As did the DUP.
Young people voting is obviously a good thing, but let's not forget that young get jobs and houses, get old, and tend to drift to the right.
The problem is we don't really know this because there's an added complication that hasn't been there before. It's called education; generally this makes them more socially aware and higher educations usually relates to more left wing votes. We could be on the cusp of changing politics as the 90's and millennials have significantly better education and that might trump the age = conservative. We'll probably know over the next 15-20 years. If education trumps age then we will see a slow push of elderly voters moving towards left wing policies over time. Perhaps it is already happening, Tory supporter (as in those that have joined the party) base is already aging rapidly.
What's interested me is that we've just had a run of commentary on here that suggested that Brexit is a terrible idea, and instead of defending it, it's supporters have basically said it's a done deal that we can't get out of rather than defending it's integrity as a good idea.
There is none of this with the DUP. You do realise that paramilitaries are people who live in our communities they are brothers, sons, fathers pretty much everyone and every organisation will have had or have people connected to paramilitaries in them or associated with them to some degree. But 99% abhored the violence. As did the DUP.
They don't need to. They just need to sell union jack flags. The point is though that both have likely links to old paramilitaries, but it's better that we have peace now than both sides trying to blow large chunks of flesh out of each other. But people are still suspicious of those links and will continue to do so (you only have to look at the attacks on Corbyn).
What is more concerning today is things like the homophobic comments they put forward (as an example) and either the wilful, ignorant, or just incompetence that the RHI scheme implies. And this is a party that is going to go into a power share. Really it's desperation stakes by May and pretty much every decision she has made turns into a unmitigated disaster so this will probably end up being the same.
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r_squared wrote: What's interested me is that we've just had a run of commentary on here that suggested that Brexit is a terrible idea, and instead of defending it, it's supporters have basically said it's a done deal that we can't get out of rather than defending it's integrity as a good idea.
How interesting.
I think that might be from the realisation that the public at large might be starting to turn against the idea so the argument changes to "Too late now!"
A little off topic, but I was talking with my parent's about Ireland and the dup's alleged links to paramilitaries, and my dad started telling a funny anecdote about my late paternal great grandfather (i never knew him, he died before I was born) who was "involved" in the Irish civil war, but not in the way i expected.
Apparently when the ira were shooting down streets at British positions, my great grandfather would hold bystanders back until the shooting stopped then direct them to cross.the street when it was safe. Basically he was an Irish Lolly pop man..
He later served as an air raid warden for munition factories in Belfast in ww2.
I'm giving up. I've learnt several things today. Mostly how little the English care about the union and how shamefully uneducated many of them can be about their neighbours. It's very sad. As someone who loves England, Wales, Scotland and NI and views our collective nations as a family I've found the hatred poured on my country and its people today on social media depressing beyond words.
Spin and GIFs on social media are what people consider education and knowledge on a people's history. This plays directly into the hands of the history rewriters.
Young people voting is obviously a good thing, but let's not forget that young get jobs and houses, get old, and tend to drift to the right.
The problem is we don't really know this because there's an added complication that hasn't been there before. It's called education; generally this makes them more socially aware and higher educations usually relates to more left wing votes. We could be on the cusp of changing politics as the 90's and millennials have significantly better education and that might trump the age = conservative. We'll probably know over the next 15-20 years. If education trumps age then we will see a slow push of elderly voters moving towards left wing policies over time. Perhaps it is already happening, Tory supporter (as in those that have joined the party) base is already aging rapidly.
I disagree. In the last 100 years, the Conservatives have been in power for what, 80% of the time? And many of their supporters and MPs would have been university educated.
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r_squared wrote: What's interested me is that we've just had a run of commentary on here that suggested that Brexit is a terrible idea, and instead of defending it, it's supporters have basically said it's a done deal that we can't get out of rather than defending it's integrity as a good idea.
How interesting.
I would vote for Brexit again tomorrow. I have no regrets. Just because the Tories can't organise a funeral in a graveyard, doesn't mean that leaving the EU is a bad idea.
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Knockagh wrote: I'm giving up. I've learnt several things today. Mostly how little the English care about the union and how shamefully uneducated many of them can be about their neighbours. It's very sad. As someone who loves England, Wales, Scotland and NI and views our collective nations as a family I've found the hatred poured on my country and its people today on social media depressing beyond words.
Spin and GIFs on social media are what people consider education and knowledge on a people's history. This plays directly into the hands of the history rewriters.
Well, I hope you stay on this forum. I might not agree with you, but I do enjoy debating with people on different issues.
r_squared wrote: What's interested me is that we've just had a run of commentary on here that suggested that Brexit is a terrible idea, and instead of defending it, it's supporters have basically said it's a done deal that we can't get out of rather than defending it's integrity as a good idea.
How interesting.
I would vote for Brexit again tomorrow. I have no regrets. Just because the Tories can't organise a funeral in a graveyard, doesn't mean that leaving the EU is a bad idea...
Just because you'll vote for it again, doesn't mean it's a good idea either.
There is none of this with the DUP. You do realise that paramilitaries are people who live in our communities they are brothers, sons, fathers pretty much everyone and every organisation will have had or have people connected to paramilitaries in them or associated with them to some degree. But 99% abhored the violence. As did the DUP.
They don't need to. They just need to sell union jack flags. The point is though that both have likely links to old paramilitaries, but it's better that we have peace now than both sides trying to blow large chunks of flesh out of each other. But people are still suspicious of those links and will continue to do so (you only have to look at the attacks on Corbyn).
What is more concerning today is things like the homophobic comments they put forward (as an example) and either the wilful, ignorant, or just incompetence that the RHI scheme implies. And this is a party that is going to go into a power share. Really it's desperation stakes by May and pretty much every decision she has made turns into a unmitigated disaster so this will probably end up being the same.
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r_squared wrote: What's interested me is that we've just had a run of commentary on here that suggested that Brexit is a terrible idea, and instead of defending it, it's supporters have basically said it's a done deal that we can't get out of rather than defending it's integrity as a good idea.
How interesting.
I think that might be from the realisation that the public at large might be starting to turn against the idea so the argument changes to "Too late now!"
I think it is more a matter of now the process has started it has to be finished, should the public want to think again after that, well then it is up to the ruling party to make the call. Whatever the case, the true begging's are set to happen very soon now. Whether the majority of the public has changed their minds isn't yet fact. I believe people are now sick of hearing about Brexit in the news and that the election results were more about home politics rather than international politics. The Conservatives lost votes because their Manifesto was bad, particularly to elderly voters who make up a great deal of support. Labour swelled through these losses and with the collapse of UKIP. I think people voted Labour because Corbyn promised change and investment on things like the NHS and schools were as the Conservatives didn't and we all got fed up of moaning about it. It is probably true Labour got more youth votes with offering great incentives like free tuition with a huge government debt backlog etc combined with a heavily invested 'share this' social media campaign. It will be interesting to see if this age group stay like minded as they age or whether they become more money conscience and drift towards the right. I think Tim Farron did poorly because he focused too much on turning the tide of Brexit rather than on home affairs like Corbyn. Still I can't fault how Labour performed and it got more people to go out and vote, my sister a prime example hoping to go to university end of this year would not vote before, but with Corbyn saying the right messages for students and it becomes popular online to be affiliated with labour for the election, she went out and voted. I never thought that would happen!
Not to drift to far off topic with Northern Ireland, was it the DUP that caused that huge wood chipping scandal whereby they were paying people more money than it cost to buy wood pellets and people were heating empty buildings to live off the subsidy? Am I making this up? I am sure I heard this somewhere.
r_squared wrote: What's interested me is that we've just had a run of commentary on here that suggested that Brexit is a terrible idea, and instead of defending it, it's supporters have basically said it's a done deal that we can't get out of rather than defending it's integrity as a good idea.
How interesting.
I would vote for Brexit again tomorrow. I have no regrets. Just because the Tories can't organise a funeral in a graveyard, doesn't mean that leaving the EU is a bad idea...
Just because you'll vote for it again, doesn't mean it's a good idea either.
That's true, but we are were we are. The DUP supported Leave, so I think Brexit will continue on its merry way.
You're also forgetting that Corbyn has been anti-EEC/EU for decades, something a lot of his supporters seem to have overlooked.
Knockagh wrote: I'm giving up. I've learnt several things today. Mostly how little the English care about the union and how shamefully uneducated many of them can be about their neighbours. It's very sad. As someone who loves England, Wales, Scotland and NI and views our collective nations as a family I've found the hatred poured on my country and its people today on social media depressing beyond words.
Spin and GIFs on social media are what people consider education and knowledge on a people's history. This plays directly into the hands of the history rewriters.
I have to say it reminded me this morning how little anyone outside of NI understands about NI. I had to explain to 2 colleagues exactly who they were, which is understandable, but they thought they were a European remainer party, because they were unionists.
They were dismayed that a remainer party could be in coalition with the conservatives and thought it was a plot to get us back in the EU.
That took me back a bit. Out of mischief, I nearly went along with it to wind them up, but I decided not to be a dick.
