KiloFiX wrote: I like the ubiquity of the 30-06 myself. It's been used to hunt everything including the African Big 5 (regardless that most will recommend a bigger round).
On a separate note, if you wanted something beefier (but shorter ranged), I like a lever .45-70 myself.
The only .45-70 I shot kicked like a mule. You are manly mans sir.
KiloFiX wrote: I like the ubiquity of the 30-06 myself. It's been used to hunt everything including the African Big 5 (regardless that most will recommend a bigger round).
On a separate note, if you wanted something beefier (but shorter ranged), I like a lever .45-70 myself.
The only .45-70 I shot kicked like a mule. You are manly mans sir.
Just afraid of an attempted mugging by a hippopotamus.
jasper76 wrote: What's a good caliber for rabbits, squirrel, and other small game, to bag them for eating, I mean?
.50 Beowulf
EDIT: feth squirrels.
Nah. .50 BMG
30 mm GAU-8
Stonebeard approves of these suggestions, and, in the spirit of cooperation and brotherly love for his fellow man, suggests 90mm M71 as an alternative.
jasper76 wrote:Dude. Squirrels are good for stewing. One of my favorites.
Frazzled wrote:You mean ..22 LR right? A 5.56 on a squirrel seems...excessive even to Team Wienie.
Stonebeard dissaproves of these statements and finds your collective lack of antipathy for the vile, loathsome, wire consuming vermin species disquieting.
Yeah I know about the velocity dropoff with the short barrel. It's not my defense weapon. I got it because it's allegedly pretty loud and with the right ammo, shoots fireballs; and to me that is what recreational shooting is all about.
I don't know how I like it yet - I'll go to the range after work tomorrow
I can tell you that it fits my arm and face a lot better than most rifles. I think I have very short arms or something because I have a really, really hard time getting a good cheek weld on any standard-length rifle or shotgun I've shot. This, on the other hand, feels way more "right".
Although, obviously, I intended to shoot it one handed and need the brace to stabilize my arm. That was my intent when buying it.
Ouze wrote: I don't know how I like it yet - I'll go to the range after work tomorrow
I can tell you that it fits my arm and face a lot better than most rifles. I think I have very short arms or something because I have a really, really hard time getting a good cheek weld on any standard-length rifle or shotgun I've shot. This, on the other hand, feels way more "right".
Although, obviously, I intended to shoot it one handed and need the brace to stabilize my arm. That was my intent when buying it.
Sometimes I wonder if GW and the BATF have the same group of dumbasses writing their publications.
PS: The timing on Glock's release of their G43 single stack 9mm is pretty much proof that they're trolling the world.
Ouze wrote: I don't know how I like it yet - I'll go to the range after work tomorrow
I can tell you that it fits my arm and face a lot better than most rifles. I think I have very short arms or something because I have a really, really hard time getting a good cheek weld on any standard-length rifle or shotgun I've shot. This, on the other hand, feels way more "right".
Although, obviously, I intended to shoot it one handed and need the brace to stabilize my arm. That was my intent when buying it.
Nice firearm, are we getting a full range report later?
Are you sure? Google's saying actual SBR's (and suppressors) are lawful in Washington, let alone AR pistols.
Anyway I shot it today. Just a bit, about 300 rounds to break it in.
It's from Primary Arms, who are vendor for Radical Firearms (the manufacturer). I paid $600 + shipping, which I think was pretty solid. You can get it cheaper ($50 less) from Radical directly but they ship in 3 to 5 weeks and if you order from Primary Arms on a sunday night it will be in your hand on thursday morning and waiting is not my strong suit. It's a standard .223 / 5.56 with a 1:9 twist which is about right for the kind of ammo I will usually shoot.
The short barrel makes it quite loud, but I feel like with some tweaking and the right muzzle brake, I can make it louder still. It was too bright this morning to really see the muzzle flash, so I will try again with some cheap ammo at dusk.
I paired i with a Bushnell TRS-25 and Magbul gen 2 BUIS, absolute cowitness. It was very nearly zeroed in right out of the box which was spiffy, I had it locked in within 10m rounds. Accuracy is quite good, as someone who is used to shooting an AK it's quite impressive how tight the groupings are. Using poop-tier ammo I was getting 3-4 inch groups which for me is pretty awesome; I'm not a great shot or even really a good one to be honest. I ran a few different types of brass, no problems. I switched to steel cased Tulammo at the very end and no problems there either, which is nice because Tulammo .223 is $5 a box at Walmart. I did notice the groupings opened up to 4-5 or so inches with the Tulammo which I imagine is awful if you're a professional, but with my AK I'd be seeing dinner plate size groups so pretty happy with that.
I suspect my sudden increase in marksmanship might be do to the Sig brace, which is truly, truly awesome. It might be the best gun related thing I've ever owned, and this is the first long gun pistol I've owned that I well and truly felt fit my arms like it belonged there.
As a range toy I like it a lot. Recoil is minimal of course since you're shooting little baby bullets. There's a little muzzle flip which I'll try to rectify with a different muzzle brake but it's not bad as is.
My only real complaint is, of all things, the trigger guard. It has 2 lips on the outside which are raised more than the guard itself, and so they scrape up my middle finger quite unpleasantly. I ordered a replacement trigger guard for $10 that protrudes significantly more and will fix that, so no big deal.
Vaktathi wrote: If you're wanting meat or fur off that rabbit, .223 is going to be excessive.
yeah...
22lr to 22HMR or a .17 super sonic load are as big as Id go for small game,
seems wasteful to go any higher, and I have ethical issues with wasting meat/fur.
Id stay away from shot gun pellet loads as someone suggested earlier, thats basically for hunting birds, ground game there is a good chance you are going to be picking out lots of pellets and wasting good meat/fur.
Not saying it cannot be done, just probably not ideal esp for a newbie (aside from being easier to hit due to the spread)
and while we are showing off SBR porn, complete with obligatory sock in picture,
Are you sure? Google's saying actual SBR's (and suppressors) are lawful in Washington, let alone AR pistols.
Yeah... my local shops all have 2 or 3 "SBRs" on their walls for sale. Washington surprisingly has decent firearms laws (except for the new I-591 or 594 that were voted on last nov)
Last thing I've used a gun for was my cz82 as a bottle opener. Its the only thing I've ever had that would reliably pop bottle tops off glass cokes and root beer that I like to drink so much. For those of you who don't know what Im talking about, look up Makarov/cz 82 bottle opener sometime, its an interesting thing those pistols can do thanks to their slide and barrel design.
Its made moving in with roommates again really weird because I can't just whip out my "bottle opener" anymore since about half are from California. Had to leave the thing with my parents for the time being.
Also, moving to Arizona was very weird. I thought Kentucky had loose gun laws, but good lord we're practically California to these guys. I actually had to call a local cop to make sure I wasn't hallucinating some of the laws I was reading.
I've found that with SBRs, the Noveske Muzzle Brakes do a really good job of diverting most of the muzzle blast forwards so there's less impact to the user.
Before my dad's cousin passed away, he left me his model 1816 Harper's Ferry musket, made in 1832. I've got it broke down and am going through the cleanup process. At some point it was converted to percussion cap from flintlock. Some work with steel wool, 409, WD-40 and metal polish is having good results after less than an hour.
I'll have to see about getting the percussion nipple off to replace it.
The barrel looks to be in good shape and is probably shootable.
I finally have something older than my model 1866 Springfield.
...You realize that by 'refurbishing' it like that, you've basically killed any re-sale value it had, right? I mean, if you're going to be using it as a legit hunting/shooting weapon and don't care at all about the historical value of it, that's fine, I suppose. But by stripping the original patina, you've probably halved or worse the collector's value of it.
Anvildude wrote: ...You realize that by 'refurbishing' it like that, you've basically killed any re-sale value it had, right? I mean, if you're going to be using it as a legit hunting/shooting weapon and don't care at all about the historical value of it, that's fine, I suppose. But by stripping the original patina, you've probably halved or worse the collector's value of it.
If it was originally a flintlock, much of the resale value was already gone when it was made into a percussion cap firearm.... There may have been a bit of value remaining in it due to age and relative condition, but I do agree that cleaning it definitely killed ANY value as a collector's piece.
The operation of a firearm is all on the inside, especially for a muzzle loader. You can clean the barrel and firing hole, make sure the mechanisms still work, without doing anything to the outside of the piece. It's not like it's covered in cosmoline.
I hate patina. Armory bright is the way it's meant to be. Why grease and grunge is considered value is a mystery to me. Patina ain't "original"
The percussion conversion was a period thing, happening in the late 1840s or 1850s, so I doubt that would detract the value much, though I could see the value in it's original flintlock state. It's quite possible it saw action in the first year or so in the Civil War, when various militias had all sorts of obsolete stuff. Could very well have gone to Mexico, too.
It's not like I'm sanding down the stock or something.
I'm looking forward to trying buck 'n ball with it. Don't expect a lot of long range accuracy with it, being smoothbore.
One thing with these old muskets that you don't see in the reproductions... the steel at the muzzle is quite thin. I almost want to say paper thin, but not quite that much. New ones seem to stay thick all the way to the end.
easysauce: I just used my iPhone 5 camera for this. As long as this firearm is, it's tough to get a whole pic.
The condensed version is that CZ USA will be producing kits for the rifle to make it compliant with 922(r) so the pistol may be converted to a SBR
The concept of a semi-automatic firearm in a pistol caliber confuses hell out of me, but it is pretty.
EDIT: misread original statment
Really, they're just nifty little things that can be cheaper to shoot that larger rifles in some cases with easier recoil (plus the CZ looks amazing), and for any sort of "home defense" type thing I prefer that size, gives you a little more punch and more capacity than a handgun, while not quite as likely to blow your ears out in enclosed spaces and less overpenetration.
If it was originally a flintlock, much of the resale value was already gone when it was made into a percussion cap firearm....
Actually that's wrong in this case. It was converted to percussion along with most of the armory's stock in the 1840's and 50's. It's most likely a Confederate Civil War piece. He really screwed up.
I'll have to see about getting the percussion nipple off to replace it.
It's like watching someone cut up an illuminated manuscript to sell the individual pages on ebay..
You don't have enough of it in the picture to tell you more about your musket other than the following:
Leave the damn percussion hammer on there before you make this any worse. Your date makes it a Type 3, meaning that the patina is a little less important as the armory at that time stopped putting any browning, etc on the muskets in that year, so there's no original finish to remove. The patina though should have stayed. These muskets tend to brown with age.
Do not assume the barrel is shootable. You clearly have no idea how to properly maintain this weapon, let alone shoot it. Do not, under any circumstances, TRY TO DO ANY MORE 'WORK' ON IT. Take it to a trained gunsmith, or, better, an expert in caring for and maintaining historic weaponry. If you don't know any, contact your local museum or Civil War re-enactment organization. They should be able ot push you in the right direction.
Zad Fnark wrote: I hate patina. Armory bright is the way it's meant to be. Why grease and grunge is considered value is a mystery to me. Patina ain't "original"
Actually in the case of Harper's Ferry muskets from the years before yours, it is, actually. The armory deliberately gave them patina to reduce rusting. 'Armory bright' does not exist for these. Please learn something about muskets before you do any more damage.
It's quite possible it saw action in the first year or so in the Civil War, when various militias had all sorts of obsolete stuff. Could very well have gone to Mexico, too.
Unless there's a Dagger shaped armory mark on the barrel, it probably didn't go to Mexico.
One thing with these old muskets that you don't see in the reproductions... the steel at the muzzle is quite thin. I almost want to say paper thin, but not quite that much. New ones seem to stay thick all the way to the end.
And yet, he wants to load her up with buck and ball...
You make baby flintlock cry.
The condensed version is that CZ USA will be producing kits for the rifle to make it compliant with 922(r) so the pistol may be converted to a SBR
The concept of a semi-automatic firearm in a pistol caliber confuses hell out of me, but it is pretty.
EDIT: misread original statment
Really, they're just nifty little things that can be cheaper to shoot that larger rifles in some cases with easier recoil (plus the CZ looks amazing), and for any sort of "home defense" type thing I prefer that size, gives you a little more punch and more capacity than a handgun, while not quite as likely to blow your ears out in enclosed spaces and less overpenetration.
I suppose those are good points, but the concept just isn't my bag. Much rather be throwing a 7.62 if I'm in a house. Well, at least in theory; I've never actually been in a position where I had to defend the fort, armed with nothing more than my Darth Vader boxers and a Draco, so I don't know.
I'm actually fairly certain that pistol rounds actually penetrate drywall better than .556. Small, high velocity rounds will fragment when they hit the first layer of drywall, and the second layer/studs will catch those fragments (I don't know what the caliber/velocity cutoff for this is, I could be way off). Pistol rounds, on the other hand, will just punch through thanks to their relative mass and keep going through multiple layers of drywall. Verify before you believe me on that, though, it was something I'd read on a firearms blog or something years ago and I can't recall the source.
Some people also like to standardize their ammunition across platforms, especially if they reload. Having a rifle and pistol in the same caliber allows them to do this more easily.
I must admit a fondness of pistol caliber carbines. Typically the longer barrel creates considerably more muzzle energy than an actual pistol lenth barrel. The longer sight radius and stock allow for more consistent accuracy with midrange shooting. When it comes to penetration of barriers they typically out perform 5.5~mm ammo at short range but barrier penetration drops off quickly with range. Utility? i know a few people who harvested their first White Tail deer with .44 lever action rifles.
I'm looking real close at that little CZ EVO with the SBR potential. That looks like a lot of fun. Never thought I'd go NFA...
I got a bit of a question for everyone- What exactly constitutes a "Carbine"? I thought for the longest time that it was a 'long gun' (that is, stock, two-hands, etc. etc) that fired pistol rounds, but was under a certain length, but I had a gun-nut buddy of mine say that it was something else.
A Carbine is basically a shortened version of a "full size" rifle. See the M16 and M4 for reference. It can fire either full size rifle rounds or pistol caliber ammunition.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: A Carbine is basically a shortened version of a "full size" rifle. See the M16 and M4 for reference. It can fire either full size rifle rounds or pistol caliber ammunition.
Pretty much this. What may cause confusion are the legal terms used to describe these firearms. Carbines are typically referred to as Short Barreled Rifles (SBRs), and require a tax stamp under the National Firearms Act (NFA) to own; although in some states they are prohibited.
The other confusion point is what constitutes a rifle vs. a carbine. For example the M1 Carbine is both a carbine and a rifle, being the "small" and lighter caliber version of the M1 Garand, however the term carbine really is more or less outdated for modern usage. The term was at it's most common during the age of blackpowder, where a carbine was at it's most recognizable as the weapon of choice for cavalrymen, due to it's shorter size and easier handling. The primary infantry arm of the day being the massively long barreled musket or rifle allows of to make sense of some of the odder "carbine" labels. For example the Sharps Carbine and the original lever action rifles were all termed carbines in military service.
The term's use in trade circles is even more varied, and only adds to the confusion. Using the 1873 Winchester rifle as an example, we find that the weapon had a 24" rifle length and a 22" Carbine, these being the official trade terms. This pattern in 6"-2" variations of barrel length for rifle/carbine lengths in various models would repeat for a lot of Winchester's history.
So on some level the term can mean just about anything to everyone modernly speaking. However if it's shorter and lighter than a "full size rifle" whether it has a larger variant to compare to (1873 Win, M16, et al) or just speaking as a "general" statement then it can be termed a carbine.
Does anyone have any experience with the 9mm Beretta Nano? Most of the reviews I've seen have been positive but I'm curious if any Dakkaites have any first-hand experience.
Hordini wrote: Does anyone have any experience with the 9mm Beretta Nano? Most of the reviews I've seen have been positive but I'm curious if any Dakkaites have any first-hand experience.
I have some. It grips allright and shoots just fine, but was awkwardly top heavy, like really top heavy.
If it was originally a flintlock, much of the resale value was already gone when it was made into a percussion cap firearm....
Actually that's wrong in this case. It was converted to percussion along with most of the armory's stock in the 1840's and 50's. It's most likely a Confederate Civil War piece. He really screwed up.
That is a good point... even converting a rifle depends on when it was converted. I was too general .... I would definitely be interested in finding out IF there were a way to positively track down whether that piece had been a CSA piece from the civil war (I know that with some firearms that are pre-serial numbers, origins can get sketchy beyond maker and rough timeframe for manufacture)
That is a good point... even converting a rifle depends on when it was converted. I was too general .... I would definitely be interested in finding out IF there were a way to positively track down whether that piece had been a CSA piece from the civil war (I know that with some firearms that are pre-serial numbers, origins can get sketchy beyond maker and rough timeframe for manufacture)
Sometimes you can by armory stamps, or the year (guns were made more slowly back then, so a given year's production might have been bought by a handful of state arsenals). Some modifications are unique to the CSA, but it looks like this one was a straight up HF percussion conversion (any barrel treatments would, sadly, have just been sanded off by this guy.). Sometimes a person would carve their name on the stock (makes it easier to tell whose is whose in camp).
I need to take some pics of an 1813 Sutton musket that I think would knock a lot of your socks off one of these days.
Hordini wrote: Does anyone have any experience with the 9mm Beretta Nano? Most of the reviews I've seen have been positive but I'm curious if any Dakkaites have any first-hand experience.
I have some. It grips allright and shoots just fine, but was awkwardly top heavy, like really top heavy.
Thanks! So you didn't like the top-heaviness? I had heard others mention it was somewhat top heavy but they also mentioned that it helped reduce muzzle flip.
To everyone: A question about aftermarket guide rods. I have seen that for a lot of pistols that come stock with polymer guide rods, you can get aftermarket stainless steel guide rods offered by other companies. Have any of you added stainless steel guide rods to your pistols? It seemed like it might be a cool idea and was considering giving it a try, because I know polymer rods can wear out and I have even heard stories that they can break over time, but I also want to make sure that adding a stainless steel part to replace a polymer part isn't going to cause some kind of unforeseen wear on the weapon. Any thoughts?
Hordini wrote: Does anyone have any experience with the 9mm Beretta Nano? Most of the reviews I've seen have been positive but I'm curious if any Dakkaites have any first-hand experience.
I have some. It grips allright and shoots just fine, but was awkwardly top heavy, like really top heavy.
Thanks! So you didn't like the top-heaviness? I had heard others mention it was somewhat top heavy but they also mentioned that it helped reduce muzzle flip.
To everyone: A question about aftermarket guide rods. I have seen that for a lot of pistols that come stock with polymer guide rods, you can get aftermarket stainless steel guide rods offered by other companies. Have any of you added stainless steel guide rods to your pistols? It seemed like it might be a cool idea and was considering giving it a try, because I know polymer rods can wear out and I have even heard stories that they can break over time, but I also want to make sure that adding a stainless steel part to replace a polymer part isn't going to cause some kind of unforeseen wear on the weapon. Any thoughts?
The top heaviness does help with recoil, but can make aiming a more awkward. That may just be a subjective thing to me however.
As for steel guide rods, my PX4 has a plastic rod, I've never had any issues with it, though I don't run around wearing it every day and am not shooting it weekly, so take that as you will. However, I feel that if a steel guide rod in most pistols were really necessary, they'd be included at the factory, that's just not something that's worth it to skimp on if it's truly a realistic failure point unless you're mucking with trying to take it apart or something. I've never heard an actual case of a plastic guide rod snapping without someone having done something stupid in the first place.
BaronIveagh wrote:
Actually in the case of Harper's Ferry muskets from the years before yours, it is, actually. The armory deliberately gave them patina to reduce rusting. 'Armory bright' does not exist for these. Please learn something about muskets before you do any more damage.
You're not serious, are you?
Firearms of the time came out of the armory in two ways
Anvildude wrote: I got a bit of a question for everyone- What exactly constitutes a "Carbine"? I thought for the longest time that it was a 'long gun' (that is, stock, two-hands, etc. etc) that fired pistol rounds, but was under a certain length, but I had a gun-nut buddy of mine say that it was something else.
A "carbine" is just a shorter version of a rifle. The rifles(carbines) I'd like to think I know a bit about are the 98 Mausers and Lee Enfields. The Original Gewehr 98 Mauser was 49" long then the Kar98 Mauser (Karabiner Carbine 98) was shortened to 42". Then for the Lee Enfield there is the MLE which was also 49" then the shorter one the "Smile Rifle" or the SMLE (Short, Magazine Lee Enfeild) was 44". The No. 5 Mk. 1 Jungle Carbine shortened the whole rifle down to 39". As far as I know, and please correct me if wrong, pistol caliber rifles where called SMGs until the civilian market got ahold of them and made semi auto versions and called them carbines to escape the "Machine Gun" part of that.
The browning process for a musket barrel starts as follows: The metal is first removed of all greasy impurities by washing with soap or detergent. Then plugs are added so the barrel sealed and only the outsides are rusted. The barrel is hung in the air and then the browning solution is thoroughly applied to the outside with a clean cloth or sponge. The barrel is left exposed in the air for about 24 hours, after which a thin layer of reddish brown rust is formed on the surface. After this, the barrel is "carded" by rubbing it with a hard brush or steel wool, which removes the acid from the surface. The whole process is repeated for two or three times to get the desired shade of reddish-brown finish on the barrel. The barrel is then cleaned and oiled (I like boiled linseed oil, myself).
The British would take this one step further and add a light varnish to the barrel containing Dragon's Blood, to give it the reddish tint in one go and make it somewhat glossy. (see General Regulations and Orders for the Army [1811])
If you want to cold blue the metal instead, dip it in boiling hot water before carding, as this stops the rusting process. The part turns a deep blue or black color instead of reddish brown. This is due to the black oxide of iron (Fe3O4) being formed instead of the red oxide of iron (Fe2O3).
So, yes, it's basically applying a patina to the exterior. You treat the metal with acid to produce a thin layer of oxidization that effectively treats the barrel against further oxidization.
Armory bright
The thing with armory bright is that it's actually very difficult, because it's actually more of a flat metallic grey, to produce. it was done at the time with a metal on metal buffing machine.
Armory Brown
Yes, I know this is a Brown Bess, but it gives readers a good idea of the look of a browned weapon.
Anvildude wrote: I got a bit of a question for everyone- What exactly constitutes a "Carbine"? I thought for the longest time that it was a 'long gun' (that is, stock, two-hands, etc. etc) that fired pistol rounds, but was under a certain length, but I had a gun-nut buddy of mine say that it was something else.
A "carbine" is just a shorter version of a rifle. The rifles(carbines) I'd like to think I know a bit about are the 98 Mausers and Lee Enfields. The Original Gewehr 98 Mauser was 49" long then the Kar98 Mauser (Karabiner Carbine 98) was shortened to 42". Then for the Lee Enfield there is the MLE which was also 49" then the shorter one the "Smile Rifle" or the SMLE (Short, Magazine Lee Enfeild) was 44". The No. 5 Mk. 1 Jungle Carbine shortened the whole rifle down to 39". As far as I know, and please correct me if wrong, pistol caliber rifles where called SMGs until the civilian market got ahold of them and made semi auto versions and called them carbines to escape the "Machine Gun" part of that.
Kudos, you got part of it right.
A carbine is a shorter version of a rifle.
But the concept of a carbine sharing a pistol caliber predates the SMG by a few hundred years.
Also, SMGs are legal to own in the US, provided you pay a $200 Tax Stamp and wait 6 months to a year for a painfully slow background check that would normally take minutes to accomplish. With the caveat that you can only purchase SMGs that were made on or before May 19 1986. Prices start around $20,000 for a 40+ year old M-16 that will shake like there's no tomorrow.
I don't own any handguns as of yet. I'd only really get them for personal defense, and living in Illinois I can't get a CCW just yet (maybe later this year they'll finally allow it), but I plan on buying a .45 ACP eventually, not sure yet exactly what brand. My supervisor owns The Judge for personal defense, and he's got me eyeing that as well. That is a nasty gun.
Out of curiosity why are you interested in getting the .45acp? Honestly all handgun calibers perform nearly the same, I'd recommend a 9mm for personal defense more rounds, less recoil.
pfft. I own a subcompact 9mm as my carry gun because it's way more concealable, but my far and away favorite handgun is the 1911. I think .45 ACP has such a satisfying feel compared to 9mm. It has a steady thud that just feels good to shoot. Just the right amount of recoil IMO. Yeah, 9mm has virtually no recoil, but it's also way less fun.
When I went pistol shopping Glock was at the top of my list. I personally didn't like how it felt in my hand so I went the other way, but it's a great gun even though it wasn't for me.
I don't own any handguns as of yet. I'd only really get them for personal defense, and living in Illinois I can't get a CCW just yet (maybe later this year they'll finally allow it), but I plan on buying a .45 ACP eventually, not sure yet exactly what brand. My supervisor owns The Judge for personal defense, and he's got me eyeing that as well. That is a nasty gun.
Out of curiosity why are you interested in getting the .45acp? Honestly all handgun calibers perform nearly the same, I'd recommend a 9mm for personal defense more rounds, less recoil.
This is America dagnabit! Buy both!
All handgun calibers dont nearly perform nearly the same:
Rather, it's shot placement that will be more telling.
That said, Id prefer a 9MM over a 45ACP mostly because of capacity. Each round is a "chance" at achieving the result I want. A 9MM double stack gives me more chances than a single stack 45.
Now, if the flavors were 40S&W or 45ACP, id go with 45ACP every day, twice on Sunday. Technically the 45 has a stronger recoil, but in the real world the 45 is a heavier bullet, and it's recoil impulse is more of a push than the the snap and upwards climb of a 40 caliber pistol. Follow-up shots are more achievable firing 45ACP as opposed to 40S&W. My chances of hitting my target with the first shot are better shooting the 45 instead of the 40.
All things aside, my EDC is now a Glock 26 using Glock 17 mags. The 1911 was killing my hips by the end of the day. The 26 weighs next to nothing...
They perform very similar in terms of actual damage. So much so that many ER surgeons can not tell the difference between wounds caused by 9 say versus a 45
I don't own any handguns as of yet. I'd only really get them for personal defense, and living in Illinois I can't get a CCW just yet (maybe later this year they'll finally allow it), but I plan on buying a .45 ACP eventually, not sure yet exactly what brand. My supervisor owns The Judge for personal defense, and he's got me eyeing that as well. That is a nasty gun.
Out of curiosity why are you interested in getting the .45acp? Honestly all handgun calibers perform nearly the same, I'd recommend a 9mm for personal defense more rounds, less recoil.
This is America dagnabit! Buy both!
All handgun calibers dont nearly perform nearly the same:
Rather, it's shot placement that will be more telling.
That said, Id prefer a 9MM over a 45ACP mostly because of capacity. Each round is a "chance" at achieving the result I want. A 9MM double stack gives me more chances than a single stack 45.
Now, if the flavors were 40S&W or 45ACP, id go with 45ACP every day, twice on Sunday. Technically the 45 has a stronger recoil, but in the real world the 45 is a heavier bullet, and it's recoil impulse is more of a push than the the snap and upwards climb of a 40 caliber pistol. Follow-up shots are more achievable firing 45ACP as opposed to 40S&W. My chances of hitting my target with the first shot are better shooting the 45 instead of the 40.
All things aside, my EDC is now a Glock 26 using Glock 17 mags. The 1911 was killing my hips by the end of the day. The 26 weighs next to nothing...
Won't +P and hollow points help mitigate against the difference in the rounds?
Ouze wrote: Speaking for myself I don't like .40 at all. It looks pretty good on paper but man, I found it to be wholly unpleasant to shoot, very snappy.
Me too, cant stand the 40.
The 40 Soft&Weak was the compromise made from the afterbirth of the 10MM. FBI agents couldnt qualify using the 10MM due to excessive recoil, so the 40 was developed to bridge a gap between the then ineffective ball 9MM rounds and the 10MM caliber cartridge.
The 9 performs much better presently because of the development of better bullets.
This picture is pretty meaningless unless we know what kind of bullets are being used. Is it FMJ? JHP? What is the bullet weight? What is the target made of? Paper? Cardboard? Ballistic gel?
All of the seriously negative criticism about the 9mm (low power, over penetration, etc.) is pretty much exclusively reserved for the 9mm FMJ round. Modern, defensive 9mm JHP perform excellently and I would argue that their capability as a self-defense round is just as good (if not better, due to reduced recoil and higher capacity) as any of the other common calibers.
This picture is pretty meaningless unless we know what kind of bullets are being used. Is it FMJ? JHP? What is the bullet weight? What is the target made of? Paper? Cardboard? Ballistic gel?
All of the seriously negative criticism about the 9mm (low power, over penetration, etc.) is pretty much exclusively reserved for the 9mm FMJ round. Modern, defensive 9mm JHP perform excellently and I would argue that their capability as a self-defense round is just as good (if not better, due to reduced recoil and higher capacity) as any of the other common calibers.
This is the argument my buddy who is a Firearms instructor and the owner of a modern gun-fighting business makes over and over again, he says he usually doesn't win lol as people seem very set in their ways. However he's the reason I'm going with the G19 and since I firmly believe he has 1000+ the knowledge I have I'll trust him.
The thing I like to tell folks who buy their first gun is practice, practice, practice.
Don't buy a gun and shoot like 20 rounds then keep it in the safe. It's only useful if your safe, proficient and comfortable with it.
That said, if you get something like a .45 (Long) Colt, or a 45 ACP, or a .357 Magnum or even a .40, it may not see as much range time as the ubiquitous and easy to shoot 9mm.
Hordini wrote: All of the seriously negative criticism about the 9mm (low power, over penetration, etc.) is pretty much exclusively reserved for the 9mm FMJ round. Modern, defensive 9mm JHP perform excellently and I would argue that their capability as a self-defense round is just as good (if not better, due to reduced recoil and higher capacity) as any of the other common calibers.
My beef wit them (other than overpen) is that it doesn't have the right feel for me. The one's I've tried always felt too fragile. There's something reassuring about that big assed chunk of 1911 in your hands, something that says 'I will stop the target if I am needed'.
But people should go with a weapon that feels best for them. A powerful handgun isn't any good if you can't hit anything from the recoil.
They perform very similar in terms of actual damage. So much so that many ER surgeons can not tell the difference between wounds caused by 9 say versus a 45
Sorry about the delay in responding. I had to put my mob to bed.
I agree. And the FBI report that that pic comes from agrees with my assertion that is more about shot placement rather than performance of a particular caliber. Most (but not all) calibers will cause similar terminal damage provided they penetrate the target and that is where the divergence occurs not all calibers perform (shoot) the same.
“May 6, 2014
FBI Training Division: FBI Academy, Quantico, VA
Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners
Caliber debates have existed in law enforcement for decades
Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore
Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best
In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a high ting incident likelihood of succeeding for LEO’s in a shooting incident
Handgun stopping power is simply a myth
The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)
LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident
Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)
9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI
9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)
The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)
There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto
Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers
Justification for Law Enforcement Partners
Rarely in law enforcement does a topic stir a more passionate debate than the choice of handgun caliber made by a law enforcement organization. Many voice their opinions by repeating the old adage “bigger is better” while others have “heard of this one time” where a smaller caliber failed and a larger caliber “would have performed much better.” Some even subscribe to the belief that a caliber exists which will provide a “one shot stop.” It has been stated, “Decisions on ammunition selection are particularly difficult because many of the pertinent issues related to handguns and ammunition are firmly rooted in myth and folklore.” This still holds as true today as it did when originally stated 20 years ago.
Caliber, when considered alone, brings about a unique set of factors to consider such as magazine capacity for a given weapon size, ammunition availability, felt recoil, weight and cost. What is rarely discussed, but most relevant to the caliber debate is what projectile is being considered for use and its terminal performance potential.
One should never debate on a gun make or caliber alone. The projectile is what wounds and ultimately this is where the debate/discussion should focus. In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 Smith & Wesson and .45 AUTO) there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing law enforcement officers and in each of these three calibers there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of succeeding for law enforcement officers during a shooting incident. The choice of a service projectile must undergo intense scrutiny and scientific evaluation in order to select the best available option.
Many so‐called “studies” have been performed and many analyses of statistical data have been undertaken regarding this issue. Studies simply involving shooting deaths are irrelevant since the goal of law enforcement is to stop a threat during a deadly force encounter as quickly as possible. Whether or not death occurs is of no consequence as long as the threat of death or serious injury to law enforcement personnel and innocent third parties is eliminated.
“The concept of immediate incapacitation is the only goal of any law enforcement shooting and is the underlying rationale for decisions regarding weapons, ammunition, calibers and training.”1
Studies of “stopping power” are irrelevant because no one has ever been able to define how much power, force, or kinetic energy, in and of itself, is required to effectively stop a violent and determined adversary quickly, and even the largest of handgun calibers are not capable of delivering such force. Handgun stopping power is simply a myth. Studies of so‐called “one shot stops” being used as a tool to define the effectiveness of one handgun cartridge, as opposed to another, are irrelevant due to the inability to account for psychological influences and due to the lack of reporting specific shot placement. In short, extensive studies have been done over the years to “prove” a certain cartridge is better than another by using grossly flawed methodology and or bias as a precursor to manipulating statistics. In order to have a meaningful understanding of handgun terminal ballistics, one must only deal with facts that are not in dispute within the medical community, i.e. medical realities, and those which are also generally accepted within law enforcement, i.e. tactical realities.
I don't own any handguns as of yet. I'd only really get them for personal defense, and living in Illinois I can't get a CCW just yet (maybe later this year they'll finally allow it), but I plan on buying a .45 ACP eventually, not sure yet exactly what brand. My supervisor owns The Judge for personal defense, and he's got me eyeing that as well. That is a nasty gun.
Out of curiosity why are you interested in getting the .45acp? Honestly all handgun calibers perform nearly the same, I'd recommend a 9mm for personal defense more rounds, less recoil.
This is America dagnabit! Buy both!
All handgun calibers dont nearly perform nearly the same:
Rather, it's shot placement that will be more telling.
That said, Id prefer a 9MM over a 45ACP mostly because of capacity. Each round is a "chance" at achieving the result I want. A 9MM double stack gives me more chances than a single stack 45.
Now, if the flavors were 40S&W or 45ACP, id go with 45ACP every day, twice on Sunday. Technically the 45 has a stronger recoil, but in the real world the 45 is a heavier bullet, and it's recoil impulse is more of a push than the the snap and upwards climb of a 40 caliber pistol. Follow-up shots are more achievable firing 45ACP as opposed to 40S&W. My chances of hitting my target with the first shot are better shooting the 45 instead of the 40.
All things aside, my EDC is now a Glock 26 using Glock 17 mags. The 1911 was killing my hips by the end of the day. The 26 weighs next to nothing...
Won't +P and hollow points help mitigate against the difference in the rounds?
Only if you can get the bullet to hit the target
The +P ammunition helps in penetration, but with less than a 5% increase in velocity over a standard pressure round, we're talking maybe 50-75 fps over standard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alex C wrote: Carry a gun chambered for whatever caliber you shoot best.
DrNo172000 wrote: I plan on purchasing a G19 sometime in fall for the personal defense.
Open carry or conceal carry?
Open until I get my concealed, I live in VA so I can open carry without permit until I get a concealed
Its the same in Pennsyltucky. Have you tried a 26 with finger extension? I was looking at the 19, but found a sweet deal on the 26 when bought it. It came with 2 15rd magazines instead of the factory 10. I then bought another 2 17rd mags for the range. It conceals really well in a Bianchi IWB holster. It shoots surprisingly well for a compact.
Spacemanvic wrote: Its the same in Pennsyltucky. Have you tried a 26 with finger extension? I was looking at the 19, but found a sweet deal on the 26 when bought it. It came with 2 15rd magazines instead of the factory 10. I then bought another 2 17rd mags for the range. It conceals really well in a Bianchi IWB holster. It shoots surprisingly well for a compact.
I haven't fired a weapon since getting out of the Corps (May 2012). The reason I'm going with the G19 is because my close friend is a firearms instructor and owns a modern gun-fighting business, in PA no less. The G19 is what he recommended, I trust his knowledge with full confidence.
This picture is pretty meaningless unless we know what kind of bullets are being used. Is it FMJ? JHP? What is the bullet weight? What is the target made of? Paper? Cardboard? Ballistic gel?
All of the seriously negative criticism about the 9mm (low power, over penetration, etc.) is pretty much exclusively reserved for the 9mm FMJ round. Modern, defensive 9mm JHP perform excellently and I would argue that their capability as a self-defense round is just as good (if not better, due to reduced recoil and higher capacity) as any of the other common calibers.
You glossed over the part where I said:
"Rather, it's shot placement that will be more telling. "
Also I agree, the 9MM has come a long way since the MIami shootout in '86.
Hordini wrote: All of the seriously negative criticism about the 9mm (low power, over penetration, etc.) is pretty much exclusively reserved for the 9mm FMJ round. Modern, defensive 9mm JHP perform excellently and I would argue that their capability as a self-defense round is just as good (if not better, due to reduced recoil and higher capacity) as any of the other common calibers.
My beef wit them (other than overpen) is that it doesn't have the right feel for me. The one's I've tried always felt too fragile. There's something reassuring about that big assed chunk of 1911 in your hands, something that says 'I will stop the target if I am needed'.
But people should go with a weapon that feels best for them. A powerful handgun isn't any good if you can't hit anything from the recoil.
The thing I like to tell folks who buy their first gun is practice, practice, practice.
Don't buy a gun and shoot like 20 rounds then keep it in the safe. It's only useful if your safe, proficient and comfortable with it.
That said, if you get something like a .45 (Long) Colt, or a 45 ACP, or a .357 Magnum or even a .40, it may not see as much range time as the ubiquitous and easy to shoot 9mm.
So I'd recommend a 9mm to anyone starting out.
The best is, when I get a guy (usually a FUDD) coming in to get his wife/SO her first pistol/revolver and decides for her an snub nose Airweight in 38SPL. Im usually successful in getting him to realize he will get more range time if it turns out she likes to shoot. If she's never shot before, start her off on a 22. If she's got range time, show her the 9's, let her find one she likes.
And yes, practice, practice, practice. If you cant make it to the range, dry firing is your friend.
Spacemanvic wrote: Its the same in Pennsyltucky. Have you tried a 26 with finger extension? I was looking at the 19, but found a sweet deal on the 26 when bought it. It came with 2 15rd magazines instead of the factory 10. I then bought another 2 17rd mags for the range. It conceals really well in a Bianchi IWB holster. It shoots surprisingly well for a compact.
I haven't fired a weapon since getting out of the Corps (May 2012). The reason I'm going with the G19 is because my close friend is a firearms instructor and owns a modern gun-fighting business, in PA no less. The G19 is what he recommended, I trust his knowledge with full confidence.
The 19 is a solid pistol. I mention the 26 because it's easier to conceal than the 19. My body is "V" shaped, larger framed pistols stick out more on me. What saved the 1911 for me is its very slim profile, what sunk it as my EDC was its weight.
Where in PA is he located? Whats the name of the range?
Ouze wrote: Speaking for myself I don't like .40 at all. It looks pretty good on paper but man, I found it to be wholly unpleasant to shoot, very snappy.
This many times over. I've shot many types of handgun rounds and this was by large my least enjoyable to shoot.
Hordini wrote: All of the seriously negative criticism about the 9mm (low power, over penetration, etc.) is pretty much exclusively reserved for the 9mm FMJ round. Modern, defensive 9mm JHP perform excellently and I would argue that their capability as a self-defense round is just as good (if not better, due to reduced recoil and higher capacity) as any of the other common calibers.
My beef wit them (other than overpen) is that it doesn't have the right feel for me. The one's I've tried always felt too fragile. There's something reassuring about that big assed chunk of 1911 in your hands, something that says 'I will stop the target if I am needed'.
But people should go with a weapon that feels best for them. A powerful handgun isn't any good if you can't hit anything from the recoil.
DrNo172000 wrote: I plan on purchasing a G19 sometime in fall for the personal defense.
Open carry or conceal carry?
Open until I get my concealed, I live in VA so I can open carry without permit until I get a concealed
Um... You should be able to do that anywhere. It's pretty much the opposite of illegal to openly carry a weapon of any sort in any place in America, ain't it? Though some police forces might take issue with you, and there's occasionally fiddly laws about what constitutes 'concealed' someplaces- I've heard of things like holsters and sword sheaths being considered 'concealment' because people can't see the entire weapon.
DrNo172000 wrote: I plan on purchasing a G19 sometime in fall for the personal defense.
Open carry or conceal carry?
Open until I get my concealed, I live in VA so I can open carry without permit until I get a concealed
Um... You should be able to do that anywhere. It's pretty much the opposite of illegal to openly carry a weapon of any sort in any place in America, ain't it? Though some police forces might take issue with you, and there's occasionally fiddly laws about what constitutes 'concealed' someplaces- I've heard of things like holsters and sword sheaths being considered 'concealment' because people can't see the entire weapon.
Er...no thats an excellent way to end up with ink on your fingers and a chance to visit a bail bondsman. Each state is different. Many don't permit OC at all, or only permit OC of long guns or other conditions.
Hordini wrote: All of the seriously negative criticism about the 9mm (low power, over penetration, etc.) is pretty much exclusively reserved for the 9mm FMJ round. Modern, defensive 9mm JHP perform excellently and I would argue that their capability as a self-defense round is just as good (if not better, due to reduced recoil and higher capacity) as any of the other common calibers.
My beef wit them (other than overpen) is that it doesn't have the right feel for me. The one's I've tried always felt too fragile. There's something reassuring about that big assed chunk of 1911 in your hands, something that says 'I will stop the target if I am needed'.
But people should go with a weapon that feels best for them. A powerful handgun isn't any good if you can't hit anything from the recoil.
My Beretta 92 weighs more than my 1911.
Yeah 1911 is not heavy, it's just long and digs into you pretty good when you sit down. It's recoil is nothing ether - then again nether are most 9mm.
Ouze wrote: Speaking for myself I don't like .40 at all. It looks pretty good on paper but man, I found it to be wholly unpleasant to shoot, very snappy.
This many times over. I've shot many types of handgun rounds and this was by large my least enjoyable to shoot.
I thought I was a putty cat for thinking this myself - thank you for the honesty gents. I shot a glock 23 (i think that's what it was - compact .40) after 5 shots I put it down and said to my friend - "this thing hurts man - you keep it."
Hordini wrote: All of the seriously negative criticism about the 9mm (low power, over penetration, etc.) is pretty much exclusively reserved for the 9mm FMJ round. Modern, defensive 9mm JHP perform excellently and I would argue that their capability as a self-defense round is just as good (if not better, due to reduced recoil and higher capacity) as any of the other common calibers.
My beef wit them (other than overpen) is that it doesn't have the right feel for me. The one's I've tried always felt too fragile. There's something reassuring about that big assed chunk of 1911 in your hands, something that says 'I will stop the target if I am needed'.
But people should go with a weapon that feels best for them. A powerful handgun isn't any good if you can't hit anything from the recoil.
My Beretta 92 weighs more than my 1911.
Yeah 1911 is not heavy, it's just long and digs into you pretty good when you sit down. It's recoil is nothing ether - then again nether are most 9mm.
I actually never had a problem with my 1911 digging into my side when I sat down, I carried it strong side between 3-4. But, after 12 hours of carrying that thing, my hips would really hurt from the weight (loaded 1911 and two spare mags).
Eww, compact 40, not a fan. Almost hate it as much as shooting a .380.
DrNo172000 wrote: I plan on purchasing a G19 sometime in fall for the personal defense.
Open carry or conceal carry?
Open until I get my concealed, I live in VA so I can open carry without permit until I get a concealed
Um... You should be able to do that anywhere. It's pretty much the opposite of illegal to openly carry a weapon of any sort in any place in America, ain't it? Though some police forces might take issue with you, and there's occasionally fiddly laws about what constitutes 'concealed' someplaces- I've heard of things like holsters and sword sheaths being considered 'concealment' because people can't see the entire weapon.
Ahhh, no.
Each state is different. Some states have reciprocity with others, it is up to you to find out the gun laws in your state as well as the state you will be traveling through to your final destination.
DrNo172000 wrote: I plan on purchasing a G19 sometime in fall for the personal defense.
Open carry or conceal carry?
Open until I get my concealed, I live in VA so I can open carry without permit until I get a concealed
Um... You should be able to do that anywhere. It's pretty much the opposite of illegal to openly carry a weapon of any sort in any place in America, ain't it? Though some police forces might take issue with you, and there's occasionally fiddly laws about what constitutes 'concealed' someplaces- I've heard of things like holsters and sword sheaths being considered 'concealment' because people can't see the entire weapon.
This is completely incorrect. As others have said, it varies widely by state. You (or anyone else reading this) need to take a close look at your state and local gun laws before carrying anything, either openly or concealed.
Until recently, and contrary to popular belief, flaunting six-shooters snazzily suspended from your longhorn-buckled belt and pseudo-erotically slapping your chaps as you strut down main street in some charming, dusty Texan town would land your ass in jail.
Hordini wrote: All of the seriously negative criticism about the 9mm (low power, over penetration, etc.) is pretty much exclusively reserved for the 9mm FMJ round. Modern, defensive 9mm JHP perform excellently and I would argue that their capability as a self-defense round is just as good (if not better, due to reduced recoil and higher capacity) as any of the other common calibers.
My beef wit them (other than overpen) is that it doesn't have the right feel for me. The one's I've tried always felt too fragile. There's something reassuring about that big assed chunk of 1911 in your hands, something that says 'I will stop the target if I am needed'.
But people should go with a weapon that feels best for them. A powerful handgun isn't any good if you can't hit anything from the recoil.
My Beretta 92 weighs more than my 1911.
Yeah 1911 is not heavy, it's just long and digs into you pretty good when you sit down. It's recoil is nothing ether - then again nether are most 9mm.
Ouze wrote: Speaking for myself I don't like .40 at all. It looks pretty good on paper but man, I found it to be wholly unpleasant to shoot, very snappy.
This many times over. I've shot many types of handgun rounds and this was by large my least enjoyable to shoot.
I thought I was a putty cat for thinking this myself - thank you for the honesty gents. I shot a glock 23 (i think that's what it was - compact .40) after 5 shots I put it down and said to my friend - "this thing hurts man - you keep it."
Yeah I'll shoot my brothers m&p 40 occasion. It's a very nice gun itself but I'm just not a fan of the 40. I could only imagine shooting it from a compact
I don't own any handguns as of yet. I'd only really get them for personal defense, and living in Illinois I can't get a CCW just yet (maybe later this year they'll finally allow it), but I plan on buying a .45 ACP eventually, not sure yet exactly what brand. My supervisor owns The Judge for personal defense, and he's got me eyeing that as well. That is a nasty gun.
Out of curiosity why are you interested in getting the .45acp? Honestly all handgun calibers perform nearly the same, I'd recommend a 9mm for personal defense more rounds, less recoil.
Because... to quote a Colion Noir video: 9mm may kill your body, but .45 will kill your soul.
That said, I have both a .380 and a .45 and I like each of them for different reasons... though that may be more down to the firearm than the round itself. I just never have fired a 9mm that I actually liked shooting.
If I could find a PPSH, that baby would stay in 7.62x25 .
I just bought a Glock 19 and I love it. I also have a G23 an old Gen 2 G22 and had a G35. Most of my handguns are 9mm and I'm slowly selling the 40s, I'm with a lot of you and just don't care for that round much. It's too darn snappy. Although I will never get rid of my G22, I love that thing!
For conceal carry I use my new G19. If I can't use the G19 for some reason I go back to my old trusty CZ P-01.
Until recently, and contrary to popular belief, flaunting six-shooters snazzily suspended from your longhorn-buckled belt and pseudo-erotically slapping your chaps as you strut down main street in some charming, dusty Texan town would land your ass in jail.
Know the law.
But would it be for open carry, or for the erotic strutting?
Until recently, and contrary to popular belief, flaunting six-shooters snazzily suspended from your longhorn-buckled belt and pseudo-erotically slapping your chaps as you strut down main street in some charming, dusty Texan town would land your ass in jail.
Know the law.
But would it be for open carry, or for the erotic strutting?
Neither... You'd be arrested for the fact you forgot to wear pants under your chaps.
Until recently, and contrary to popular belief, flaunting six-shooters snazzily suspended from your longhorn-buckled belt and pseudo-erotically slapping your chaps as you strut down main street in some charming, dusty Texan town would land your ass in jail.
Know the law.
Interestingly enough, while illegal in Texas, such conduct would be perfectly legal in Ohio.
Until recently, and contrary to popular belief, flaunting six-shooters snazzily suspended from your longhorn-buckled belt and pseudo-erotically slapping your chaps as you strut down main street in some charming, dusty Texan town would land your ass in jail.
I don't own any handguns as of yet. I'd only really get them for personal defense, and living in Illinois I can't get a CCW just yet (maybe later this year they'll finally allow it), but I plan on buying a .45 ACP eventually, not sure yet exactly what brand. My supervisor owns The Judge for personal defense, and he's got me eyeing that as well. That is a nasty gun.
Out of curiosity why are you interested in getting the .45acp? Honestly all handgun calibers perform nearly the same, I'd recommend a 9mm for personal defense more rounds, less recoil.
Because... to quote a Colion Noir video: 9mm may kill your body, but .45 will kill your soul.
That said, I have both a .380 and a .45 and I like each of them for different reasons... though that may be more down to the firearm than the round itself. I just never have fired a 9mm that I actually liked shooting.
Yeah when I saw that video the first time I had to pause the video and collect myself. I busted up laughing at that one
Vaktathi wrote:That'll be $27,000, plus a $200 tax stamp, and I hope you live in an NFA-allowed state
I don't live in a state at all (it's complicated, check my location). But I do business mostly in PA, which is.
Well, technically PA is a Commonwealth, not a State. But "The United States, and a couple Commonwealths, and some Territories, of America" doesn't sound as good.
OC bill was just passed by the House. Now sent back to be reconciled with the Senate version. Senate already previously passed its version. Governor has said he will sign it when it gets to his desk.
OC bill was just passed by the House. Now sent back to be reconciled with the Senate version. Senate already previously passed its version. Governor has said he will sign it when it gets to his desk.
The Germans commonly converted them to 9mm during WW2.
So much for the Aryan superiority complex.
It was pretty common for the Germans to use lots of soviet weapons. They captured a millions of pieces of equipment from SMGs to artillery and tanks, makes sense to use them to supplement what you've already got rather than just leave it to sit around.
Vaktathi wrote:That'll be $27,000, plus a $200 tax stamp, and I hope you live in an NFA-allowed state
I don't live in a state at all (it's complicated, check my location). But I do business mostly in PA, which is.
Alex C wrote:Also a caliber conversion if you want it in 9mm.
Ruberu wrote:If I could find a PPSH, that baby would stay in 7.62x25 .
The Germans commonly converted them to 9mm during WW2.
German captured piles of PPSHs and loved them because of the 71 round drums. They converted them to 9mm because it was easier than trying to stock pile and equip soldiers with an enemy round, they designated them the MP41. I honestly thought they left them in 7.62 Tok so thanks for the history lessen Baronlveagh .
However I would still rather it in 7.62x25, that round is a lot of fun to shoot especially if you get the 4 dot SMG rounds, those buggers are little flash bangs!
OC bill was just passed by the House. Now sent back to be reconciled with the Senate version. Senate already previously passed its version. Governor has said he will sign it when it gets to his desk.
Awesome, that's great news for you guys!
No its not. Now these scumbags are going to walk around and every tom dick and harry store is going to put up .30-06 and .30-07 signs stopping good old fashioned CHLs too. I could be wrong, but we'll see.
Meanwhile legislation that would actually help CHLs have been shelved. I fear we have stepped backwards in a big way.
I should stop i don't want to take the thread off course. We could chat offline if desired.
So the Remington is accurate? How's the trigger pull? Throw some high end sights on it and you're good to go. If I were doing 1911 again thats what I'd do (or get a cheap Rock Island, tear it down and build it back up).
We have open carry in Michigan and I'll be honest, it usually causes issues. Sure you get people that do it correctly and cause no problems, but we do get a lot of ass hats that will purposely sling a rifle over their shoulder and walk into Walmart and the like and then challenge every single person that seems a bit panicked by the guy with a gun. I'm not saying I'm against open carry at all but it does bring out a lot of frienimies
Open carry is quite common at my part of Kentucky (but not near the larger cities Lex and Lsv). The other day I saw someone carrying a compensated 1911 at Krogers. It looked like really clean custom work and I was lol "wow nice race gun" and we talked for abit.
At the farmer's market, I see lots of folks open carrying small revolvers in .38 or .357.
KingCracker wrote: We have open carry in Michigan and I'll be honest, it usually causes issues. Sure you get people that do it correctly and cause no problems, but we do get a lot of ass hats that will purposely sling a rifle over their shoulder and walk into Walmart and the like and then challenge every single person that seems a bit panicked by the guy with a gun. I'm not saying I'm against open carry at all but it does bring out a lot of frienimies
Up here in northern Michigan I see people open carry fairly often and nobody bats an eyelid. Done it before myself and the only comment I got was from a guy asking how I liked my M&P because he was thinking about getting one
I'm talking pistols here. Only people I've seen open carrying long guns are hunters during season.
Open carry is really common in Colorado and Arizona, long guns might get you some concern, but for the most part in AZ especially the negative attention you're drawing is getting held up in transit because some old timer wants to ask about your sidearm.
I also have an R1 1911.... how do you like it overall?
I find it great for it's price. For a bog standared GI model with, of course a few upgrades from remington, it is surprisingly accurate and reliable.
Cool, that's about my experience as well, but a few of my former army buddies/ guys in my unit kept busting on the pistol for being "cheap" or unreliable or other BS, when I had had no problems whatsoever.
PAs Open Carry has too many pitfalls, so I went ahead and got my LTCF Now I can carry in the car, with sport coat, under shirt etc and not worry if I am in violation of carrying. I myself conceal carry because I feel that I am giving away any tactical advantage (surprise) by open carrying. But that's a personal decision that I dont want to force on others.
KingCracker wrote: We have open carry in Michigan and I'll be honest, it usually causes issues. Sure you get people that do it correctly and cause no problems, but we do get a lot of ass hats that will purposely sling a rifle over their shoulder and walk into Walmart and the like and then challenge every single person that seems a bit panicked by the guy with a gun. I'm not saying I'm against open carry at all but it does bring out a lot of frienimies
Up here in northern Michigan I see people open carry fairly often and nobody bats an eyelid. Done it before myself and the only comment I got was from a guy asking how I liked my M&P because he was thinking about getting one
I'm talking pistols here. Only people I've seen open carrying long guns are hunters during season.
And I can really see it up there with no problems. I'm in the southern part of Michigan where the wilds are far less wild
Again I'm not against it but I've seen/heard it cause more trouble than its worth
KingCracker wrote: We have open carry in Michigan and I'll be honest, it usually causes issues. Sure you get people that do it correctly and cause no problems, but we do get a lot of ass hats that will purposely sling a rifle over their shoulder and walk into Walmart and the like and then challenge every single person that seems a bit panicked by the guy with a gun. I'm not saying I'm against open carry at all but it does bring out a lot of frienimies
Up here in northern Michigan I see people open carry fairly often and nobody bats an eyelid. Done it before myself and the only comment I got was from a guy asking how I liked my M&P because he was thinking about getting one
I'm talking pistols here. Only people I've seen open carrying long guns are hunters during season.
And I can really see it up there with no problems. I'm in the southern part of Michigan where the wilds are far less wild
Again I'm not against it but I've seen/heard it cause more trouble than its worth
I'm in northern Indiana and to date, outside the gun stores, I have seen one person OC in the almost three years I've been here.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looks like we may have something to help settle the AR v shotgun debate for home defense. The answer is, BOTH!
KingCracker wrote: We have open carry in Michigan and I'll be honest, it usually causes issues. Sure you get people that do it correctly and cause no problems, but we do get a lot of ass hats that will purposely sling a rifle over their shoulder and walk into Walmart and the like and then challenge every single person that seems a bit panicked by the guy with a gun. I'm not saying I'm against open carry at all but it does bring out a lot of frienimies
Up here in northern Michigan I see people open carry fairly often and nobody bats an eyelid. Done it before myself and the only comment I got was from a guy asking how I liked my M&P because he was thinking about getting one
I'm talking pistols here. Only people I've seen open carrying long guns are hunters during season.
And I can really see it up there with no problems. I'm in the southern part of Michigan where the wilds are far less wild
Again I'm not against it but I've seen/heard it cause more trouble than its worth
I'm in northern Indiana and to date, outside the gun stores, I have seen one person OC in the almost three years I've been here.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looks like we may have something to help settle the AR v shotgun debate for home defense. The answer is, BOTH!
Id want one, but it looks like it would take away one of the advantages of the AR rifle: weight.
Spacemanvic wrote: Id want one, but it looks like it would take away one of the advantages of the AR rifle: weight.
How much of a factor is weight for home defense?
Tons. You need it to have a low enough mass to not tire your arm out while still having a high enough mass to still be serve as an effective cudgel if the vile gakker has the audacity to survive the first dozen or so shots .... or, erm, controlable recoil. Yeah, controlable recoil, definitely that.
Serious note: would the length of the rifle count toward the length of the shotgun?
Spacemanvic wrote: Id want one, but it looks like it would take away one of the advantages of the AR rifle: weight.
How much of a factor is weight for home defense?
Tons. You need it to have a low enough mass to not tire your arm out while still having a high enough mass to still be serve as an effective cudgel if the vile gakker has the audacity to survive the first dozen or so shots .... or, erm, controlable recoil. Yeah, controlable recoil, definitely that.
I'd disagree. You should be in a safe position, not paying tacticool ninja trying to slice the pie. Call the police and brace that shotgun until they arrive.
Serious note: would the length of the rifle count toward the length of the shotgun?
I'd disagree. You should be in a safe position, not paying tacticool ninja trying to slice the pie. Call the police and brace that shotgun until they arrive.
The last thing I want is some police officer playing Battlefield: Hardline in my living room, possibly shooting me in the process. I've had better training than them...I'd rather handle it myself and call them after the fact.
I'd disagree. You should be in a safe position, not paying tacticool ninja trying to slice the pie. Call the police and brace that shotgun until they arrive.
Frazz, that's great in theory. Personal experience? It's not always an option. Particularly in an area with a long police response time. (Salamanca's sometimes take 2 hours to drive three blocks, like the time my car was stolen.)
Spacemanvic wrote: Id want one, but it looks like it would take away one of the advantages of the AR rifle: weight.
How much of a factor is weight for home defense?
Tons. You need it to have a low enough mass to not tire your arm out while still having a high enough mass to still be serve as an effective cudgel if the vile gakker has the audacity to survive the first dozen or so shots .... or, erm, controlable recoil. Yeah, controlable recoil, definitely that.
I'd disagree. You should be in a safe position, not paying tacticool ninja trying to slice the pie. Call the police and brace that shotgun until they arrive.
My tactical underslung chainsaw-tommahawk-ninja-needle launcher disagrees with you.
Serious note: would the length of the rifle count toward the length of the shotgun?
Don't worry Stonebeard they are making a full sized standalone. So, if you want a revolving bullpup shotgun, you can have one without NFA forms or tax stamps.
BaronIveagh wrote: Frazz, that's great in theory. Personal experience? It's not always an option. Particularly in an area with a long police response time. (Salamanca's sometimes take 2 hours to drive three blocks, like the time my car was stolen.)
I've had to call 911 twice since I've moved here, and the response times were right around 30 minutes each time; which is what happens when you live out in the sticks and have only the county police. I have no reason to think that in any situation police would arrive before whatever might happen is long since over. YMMV depending on venue; I never owned firearms when I lived in NYC.
I'd disagree. You should be in a safe position, not paying tacticool ninja trying to slice the pie. Call the police and brace that shotgun until they arrive.
Frazz, that's great in theory. Personal experience? It's not always an option. Particularly in an area with a long police response time. (Salamanca's sometimes take 2 hours to drive three blocks, like the time my car was stolen.)
When is it not good in practice? Deciding you're going to go wandering around with a rifle is the worst thing you can do. If you have to gather family members then I'm not wasting time with a long gun. I need a free hand for family members, and a long gun around corners is not ideal.
Well I'm getting off topic again, so I'll just say, do what you feel is most appropriate for you and your situation. Not everyone has the same access that I have to a tactical nuclear wiener dog and a mountain dog that thinks you sure have a purty mouth heh heh.
I'd disagree. You should be in a safe position, not paying tacticool ninja trying to slice the pie. Call the police and brace that shotgun until they arrive.
The last thing I want is some police officer playing Battlefield: Hardline in my living room, possibly shooting me in the process. I've had better training than them...I'd rather handle it myself and call them after the fact.
I'd disagree. You should be in a safe position, not paying tacticool ninja trying to slice the pie. Call the police and brace that shotgun until they arrive.
Frazz, that's great in theory. Personal experience? It's not always an option. Particularly in an area with a long police response time. (Salamanca's sometimes take 2 hours to drive three blocks, like the time my car was stolen.)
When is it not good in practice? Deciding you're going to go wandering around with a rifle is the worst thing you can do.
If you have to gather family members then I'm not wasting time with a long gun. I need a free hand for family members, and a long gun around corners is not ideal.
Well I'm getting off topic again, so I'll just say, do what you feel is most appropriate for you and your situation. Not everyone has the same access that I have to a tactical nuclear wiener dog and a mountain dog that thinks you sure have a purty mouth heh heh.
Actually, the handgun is what I use to get to the house carbine. Less chance of missing and over penetrating with the AR than your common pistol calibers. Training takes care of any shortcoming you may have in how to wield a long gun in confined spaces.
That said, your number one goal would be to secure your family, and await police response - arming yourself should the assailant(s) decide to press the issue - and let them clear the house. Shotguns suck for home defense (recoil, over penetration, sound). Unless you're Joe Biden, then they are "the bomb".
But yes, use what you've got, waiting for police response while unarmed is ludicrous: when seconds count, police are minutes away.
This is pretty much the plot point from "Runaway" starring Tom Selleck and Gene Simmons.
.. so .. be careful !
It's about time. I always thought it was kinda weird that, in 2015 (which by any movie I saw as a kid was clearly THE FUTURE), we're still killing dudes with little flying pieces of metal like we have for 700 years. Bullets with guidance are a nice step forward, as would be a pill you take that contains all of your meals.
I'd disagree. You should be in a safe position, not paying tacticool ninja trying to slice the pie. Call the police and brace that shotgun until they arrive.
The last thing I want is some police officer playing Battlefield: Hardline in my living room, possibly shooting me in the process. I've had better training than them...I'd rather handle it myself and call them after the fact.
Actually, the handgun is what I use to get to the house carbine. .
I like a pistol in that role, at least in Austin.
1. Its ready to go ina quick access safe, but safe until then from idle hands.
2. I have one hand free to guide others.
3. I run about 1,500 rounds a month now and am very comfortable with a pistol.
Now Houston is different. I have a loaded Remmy there. I'm not worried about idle hands, and if it ever floods out, its so big I could use it as a canoe.
Mind you both places have long guns in case of cough***Baltimore***cough.
KiloFiX wrote: Long gun: More stability, more accuracy, more stopping power, more bullets .... all the advantages over a handgun.
That is, until you try opening a door while carrying a baby, lol.
Heard that in a carbine class one time...
AR pistol FTW.
Slow, heavy recoil, can't aim properly. er....no. If you're going to shoot pistol...shoot pistol.
Slow? Heavy recoil? What?
It's under 5 lbs and it's chambered in 5.56...I've heard of recoil sensitivity but come on man.
Your reaction time is slower than if wielding a Glock, or even better a real pistol like an M&P or Sig .
Simple physics. Yours is 5 lb. Mine is 1.5 lb.
From low ready it should be a negligible difference in time. If you're strong enough you can hold an AR-pistol at low ready one-handed no problem especially if you're using the buffer tube (or other device...) against your shoulder.
See this oldschool Elian Gonzalez pic for reference:
Low ready to:
You're describing a training deficiency. And, this all assumes that you're carrying a baby. So in the extremely unlikely case that I have to carry a baby in the middle of a gunfight in my house, we'll call it a draw between the pistol and AR. In all other situations, the AR wins hands down.
Video of just how easy it is to shoot an AR one-handed. AR pistols are no different.
Not to derail the thread but anyone have recommendations on some good CCW holsters. A few months ago I moved to a free state and started carrying. Right now I have a bladetech eclipse that I slightly modified. Looking at the G-CODE incog.
yellowfever wrote: Not to derail the thread but anyone have recommendations on some good CCW holsters. A few months ago I moved to a free state and started carrying. Right now I have a bladetech eclipse that I slightly modified. Looking at the G-CODE incog.
What gun are you using, if you don't mind me asking? Or if you do, what size (sub-compact, compact, full size)? What method(s) of carrying are you looking at doing? Inside Waistband (IWB), Outside Waistband (OWB), pocket, ankle, bellyband, shoulder?
yellowfever wrote: Not to derail the thread but anyone have recommendations on some good CCW holsters. A few months ago I moved to a free state and started carrying. Right now I have a bladetech eclipse that I slightly modified. Looking at the G-CODE incog.
Do you want to carry AIWB, IWB, OWB?
I really like AIWB but there's the whole "pointed at your dink" thing that some people can't get past.
There are a bunch of reviews on ARFcom of G-CODE's Incog, with the consensus being that it's really hard to hide anything with it.
I carry my Shield AIWB in a Bladetech Klipt and like it a lot...my only criticism is that the clip is way bigger than it needs to be. I like that there's enough space along the sight channel for me to clip my light. With AIWB it's really about individual preference, but I find that longer clips that have a bit of vertical travel are more comfortable because they let the holster move slightly as you change positions. It's not enough movement to interfere with your draw, but it's enough so that if you bend over the pistol isn't jabbing you in the ribs.
Ouze wrote: The real benefit to those Sig braces is being able to strap one AR15 to each of your arms.
Its only effective if you're chewing a stogie, or alternatively, wearing a tutu.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, this all assumes that you're carrying a baby.
Thats my point circumstances for everyone is different. I can't lock an AR in a quick safe in the bathroom which is strategically located under a shelf containing an emergency bottle of Bourbon, rum, and port (you never know when you have to party! ), and my wife can't go around swinging a rifle one handed.
Each person is different.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yellowfever wrote: Not to derail the thread but anyone have recommendations on some good CCW holsters. A few months ago I moved to a free state and started carrying. Right now I have a bladetech eclipse that I slightly modified. Looking at the G-CODE incog.
Comp-Tac and Crossbreed are standards in the IWB space. Are you IWBing or OWBing? EDIT: appendix carry-that scares me.
I have Foxx IWB hybrid holsters for my Shield, M&P 45c and G19. They work great and are half the price of a Crossbreed. Just remember to upgrade to Kydex clips.
Sounds like I know that something that weighs more will move more slowly than something that weighs less. its the same reason an M-16 is faster on a tacticool course than an M-14.
Sounds like I know that something that weighs more will move more slowly than something that weighs less. its the same reason an M-16 is faster on a tacticool course than an M-14.
You're right. I've not shot an AR-15 "pistol." My son however is a physics major and I have slept at a Holiday Inn.
Why is it the AR fanboys can't accept that other people prefer different choices than your coyote gun?
I dont care what you shoot, so as long as you are shooting.
It just sounded like you never shot an AR pistol.
Thank you for answering my assertion. - Respect
Happy shooting!
I should not have mentioned Holiday Inn. That led me to thinking about breakfast there, which led me to thinking about breakfast which led me to thinking about sausage and BACON!!!
You're right. I've not shot an AR-15 "pistol." My son however is a physics major and I have slept at a Holiday Inn.
Why is it the AR fanboys can't accept that other people prefer different choices than your coyote gun?
I dont care what you shoot, so as long as you are shooting.
It just sounded like you never shot an AR pistol.
Thank you for answering my assertion. - Respect
Happy shooting!
I should not have mentioned Holiday Inn. That led me to thinking about breakfast there, which led me to thinking about breakfast which led me to thinking about sausage and BACON!!!
You're right. I've not shot an AR-15 "pistol." My son however is a physics major and I have slept at a Holiday Inn.
Why is it the AR fanboys can't accept that other people prefer different choices than your coyote gun?
I dont care what you shoot, so as long as you are shooting.
It just sounded like you never shot an AR pistol.
Thank you for answering my assertion. - Respect
Happy shooting!
I should not have mentioned Holiday Inn. That led me to thinking about breakfast there, which led me to thinking about breakfast which led me to thinking about sausage and BACON!!!
Frazzled wrote: You're right. I've not shot an AR-15 "pistol."
You should try it. While I also am likely to go for my pistol at home if there is an emergency just because I'm much more familiar with it, the AR pistol is rapidly becoming my favorite gun to shoot.
Frazzled wrote: You're right. I've not shot an AR-15 "pistol."
You should try it. While I also am likely to go for my pistol at home if there is an emergency just because I'm much more familiar with it, the AR pistol is rapidly becoming my favorite gun to shoot.
Understand. As stated before, it doesn't fit into a quick open safe and my wife can't wield it.
I'm saving valuable dollars for: Dillon Loader; Beretta storm 9mm carbine, or inexpensive bolt action 30.06 from Mossberg/Ruger but not necessarily in that order.
You're right. I've not shot an AR-15 "pistol." My son however is a physics major and I have slept at a Holiday Inn.
Why is it the AR fanboys can't accept that other people prefer different choices than your coyote gun?
I dont care what you shoot, so as long as you are shooting.
It just sounded like you never shot an AR pistol.
Thank you for answering my assertion. - Respect
Happy shooting!
I should not have mentioned Holiday Inn. That led me to thinking about breakfast there, which led me to thinking about breakfast which led me to thinking about sausage and BACON!!!
Frazzled wrote: You're right. I've not shot an AR-15 "pistol."
You should try it. While I also am likely to go for my pistol at home if there is an emergency just because I'm much more familiar with it, the AR pistol is rapidly becoming my favorite gun to shoot.
Understand. As stated before, it doesn't fit into a quick open safe and my wife can't wield it.
I'm saving valuable dollars for: Dillon Loader; Beretta storm 9mm carbine, or inexpensive bolt action 30.06 from Mossberg/Ruger but not necessarily in that order.
Btw, Storm Carbine is a really handy and pleasant carbine to shoot. Wife had that before switching to the PS90.
yellowfever wrote: I'm carrying a G23/G19. I have both. The G23 Is modified. Right now I've been going OWB at 5 o'clock. I have been considering appendex carry though.
If you want to try IWB, I know some people really like N82 Tactical.
yellowfever wrote: I'm carrying a G23/G19. I have both. The G23 Is modified. Right now I've been going OWB at 5 o'clock. I have been considering appendex carry though.
If you want to try IWB, I know some people really like N82 Tactical.
They're pretty comfortable but the draw is atrocious - ended up giving mine to a buddy.
yellowfever wrote: I'm carrying a G23/G19. I have both. The G23 Is modified. Right now I've been going OWB at 5 o'clock. I have been considering appendex carry though.
If you want to try IWB, I know some people really like N82 Tactical.
They're pretty comfortable but the draw is atrocious - ended up giving mine to a buddy.
Is the draw slow because you have to get your hand in between the gun and the padding?
yellowfever wrote: I'm carrying a G23/G19. I have both. The G23 Is modified. Right now I've been going OWB at 5 o'clock. I have been considering appendex carry though.
If you want to try IWB, I know some people really like N82 Tactical.
They're pretty comfortable but the draw is atrocious - ended up giving mine to a buddy.
Is the draw slow because you have to get your hand in between the gun and the padding?
You nailed it!
Wedging your thumb in there is difficult as the padding covers most of the grip surface too, and it's very easy to accidentally slip your thumb into the wrong side of the padding.
Also very tough to reholster, if that's important to you.
HickOK45 did a video on the Chiappa Rhino which I had forgotten about. Now I'm really wanting to shoot one and possibly but one. Anyone have experience with the pistol and company in general?
KingCracker wrote: HickOK45 did a video on the Chiappa Rhino which I had forgotten about. Now I'm really wanting to shoot one and possibly but one. Anyone have experience with the pistol and company in general?
I made an interview at a local gun store (in the sense of I went in and made the opportunity vs. being offered one), and while I was in the store, in front of the owner made a 200% up sell on a sale. Think he'll hire me?
Sales chops are one thing I have. I made pretty good money for the minis company I was an account manager for, but I do better in person to person sales or "belly to belly" as it used to be called. I put guys into army boxes and stuff they hadn't even considered just by talking to them a little bit. "So you want to do X faction but something different? I have a army box that is pretty unique compared to normal X armies, and it plays goddess damn mean.
For the curious, the up sell was getting a MagPul BAD Lever. "I use bipods a lot, I'm trying to do long range stuff "Hate trying to find the button or smacking your rifle and going slightly off target?" "Yes." "Why don't you have one already then?" Know the product, know implementation in a variety of ways, and find customers who want that stuff. You don't sell a guy what he wants. He's already buying that. You're selling him gear he didn't know he needs yet.
yellowfever wrote: Not to derail the thread but anyone have recommendations on some good CCW holsters. A few months ago I moved to a free state and started carrying. Right now I have a bladetech eclipse that I slightly modified. Looking at the G-CODE incog.
Comp-Tac makes pretty good CCW holsters. I carry a G23 IWB @ 3:00 daily in a Comp-tac CTAC with a forward cant so that it can still be drawn while sitting in a car. It's tuckable, so you can put on a dress shirt or other button up shirt, and still be concealed.
I also have one of the budget Spartan MTACs for OWB carry. It's a little more comfortable than the IWB, but harder to conceal unless you're just draping a long shirt over it or a jacket in winter.
I may be getting a Comp-Tac Infidel holster. If I do I'll let you know how that one works out.
In other news, I just inherited a Mossberg 500/510 my from my father. He swapped the longer hunting barrel out for a 590 barrel, so it's a bit easier for carry and storage. I just need to change out the wood furniture for some Magpul plastic or something else more durable.
Things have been changing over at Armalite. There’s been an invasion of 3-gun shooters, and it has had a radical impact on the company’s products. They’ve gone from producing National Match style AR-15 rifles that wouldn’t have looked out of place in the 1990’s to offering what might be the slickest 3-gun rifle on the market in less than a year, and the man behind the push is Tommy Thacker, former 3-Gun Nation national champion and pro 3-gun shooter. The flagship product they are leading off this new charge with is their M-15 3-Gun Rifle, a gun designed to Tommy’s specifications, and it might just be the new go-to gold standard for 3-gunners.
Karla wrote up her first impressions of the 13.5 inch version of this gun a while back, and she had nothing but good things to say. Karla is an amazing 3-gun shooter and someone I learned a lot from while I was on the FNH USA 3-Gun team a while back, so I respect her opinion when it comes to firearms. She loves the 13.5 inch version, but I very much prefer a little extra barrel length on my guns so I asked for an 18″ version to test out and review.
P1160039
The very first thing people notice about this gun is the muzzle brake. Even when I pulled it out of the box at the gun shop, that’s what drew my dealer’s interest the most. There isn’t really a ton of recoil associated with the 5.56 NATO cartridge, but when you’re in a competition where fractions of a second matter every little bit of help matters. The brake is an Armalite design, with three chambers and intended to allow the end user to custom tune the exhaust to exactly match their gun and their ammo. The screws on the side of the brake regulate the amount of gas being expelled in each direction, so you can tinker to your heart’s delight with just a flathead screwdriver and some free time on the range. Even so, as-is from the factory it was pretty much spot on.
The brake does an excellent job — recoil is almost nonexistent, and getting fast follow-up shots is easy as pie. In fact, a French journalist I was at the range with said she didn’t like it as much as other guns because it just didn’t have any recoil. She preferred the SIG SAUER 556xi Russian.
Another factor impacting that recoil is the adjustable gas block. Hidden under the handguards, the low profile gas block can actually be adjusted so that there’s barely enough gas coming back to cycle the action. A finely tuned gas system will keep the bolt carrier from slamming around like a 500 pound man throwing a temper tantrum, which in turn will keep your gun from being jolted off target. The gas block can be user adjusted, so even if you change your loads and need to re-calibrate your gas system its all within your capabilities. All good things.
P1160027
The barrel on the gun is stainless steel (for extra bling — no use winning a competition if you don’t look fabulous doing it) and sports a medium profile throughout the entire length. Even though the barrel is 18″ instead of 16″ like most 3-gun rifles, it still feels remarkably light to hold and easy to maneuver. The barrel is chambered in .223 Wylde, a compromise chambering between 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington that combines the best parts of each chamber to provide what many consider to be a more accurate barrel.
Surrounding that barrel is a custom handguard that Armalite is now selling as a separate piece for project guns. The concept is something I wish more gun manufacturers would embrace: just enough rail for the job, and standard options for when you need more. The top rail on the handguard has been mostly removed, with only a little bit left at the very end for mounting iron sights or such. But while the handguard is slimmer and slicker than most 3-gun rifles out there, the end user still has the option to add more stuff. They’ve used the keymod standard mounting system for this handguard, so if you feel the need for more rails you’re only an Amazon order away — no proprietary pieces to buy.
That slimmer profile handguard not only saves on weight and improves ergonomics, but it also adds to the usability. Eliminating that rail section allows optics with large objective lenses to be mounted closer to the rail, which lowers height-over-bore error and should make for more accurate shooting.
P1160047
The receiver set is pretty standard. There’s nothing really special about the design, but the parts have been well selected. The trigger is a Timney 3-pound single stage trigger, which is a fine choice in both manufacturers and design and provides a very crisp and clean trigger pull. The safety is ambidextrous, meaning lefties and righties alike will be able to enjoy the firearm. The grip is an Ergo Grip, which isn’t my personal favorite but definitely an improvement over the usual A2 AR-15 grip. And rounding off the changes is a nifty bolt catch / release paddle that is designed to allow the user to lock the bolt back a little easier than normal. The charging handle is also ambidextrous for our south-pawed pals.
The real exciting part is in the rear.
P1160055
Most guns in this category just come with a Magpul CTR and call it done. Armalite went the extra step to actually put a proper stock on their gun, working with Luth-AR to get an Armalite branded version of their stock for the rifle. The real claim to fame of the Luth-AR MBA-1 stock is that it allows the end user to adjust both the length of pull and the cheek riser height for maximum ergonomics, but adds only a little over a pound and a quarter to the gun. That’s a full half a pound less than a Magpul PRS stock, and damn near half the price, but with very similar ergonomic capabilities.
IMG_20150327_145836
Out on the range, all these parts really come together. The gun handles like a dream, and you can definitely feel that the action moves just enough to cycle — but not a millimeter more. To really see what she can do we strapped a U.S. Optics MR-10 to the top rail, shoved some Eagle Eye ammo in her, and let it rip. The results were, quite frankly, amazing.
armalite-ar
She’s a shooter, there’s no two ways about it. To be frank that’s the best group I had all day — the group size for this gun varies a bit depending on the diet you feed her but doesn’t exceed 1 MoA.
P1160017
The gun shoots, and it shoots well. Not only is it accurate, but it also recoils with only the faintest of shoves and stays rock-solid on target. The best part: all this can be yours for one simple payment of $1,599. That might seem like a good chunk of change, but considering what other firearms manufacturers are charging for their 3-gun rifles that’s a bargain. Colt Competition wants $500 more for their rifle. So does JP Enterprises. Stag offers a 3-gun rifle for the same price, but without all the bells and whistles you get here. In short, considering all the options, Armalite’s gun is the best bang for your 3-gun shooting buck.
Specifications: Armalite M-15 18″ 3-Gun Rifle
Caliber: .223 Wylde (5.56 NATO / .223 Remington)
Action: Semi-auto
Barrel: 18″
Magazine: One 30-Round Magazine included (takes standard AR-15 mags)
MSRP: $1,599
Website: Armalite.com
Ratings (out of five stars):
Accuracy: * * * * *
With good conditions (and before my morning cup of coffee) its a one-hole gun. On average, its 1/2 to 3/4 MoA. Meets and exceeds my 1 MoA for $1,000 benchmark.
Ergonomics: * * * * *
Everything on this gun feels perfect. The stock might seem a little plastic-y, but that’s because its made of plastic. Its solid as can be.
Reliability: * * * * *
No issues. We fired hundreds of rounds without a hiccup.
Customization: * * * * *
Adjustable gas system. Adjustable muzzle brake. Adjustable stock for comb height and length of pull. Picatinny rail. Kemod compatible handguards. I don’t think it could be any more customizable if you slapped a Transformer on it.
Overall: * * * * *
I like it. A lot. For the price, its damn hard to beat.
Okay, so I have a problem maybe you all can help with.
Just sold off my sks (woo yay etc) and opened up my rifle case where my nugget has been sitting for a few months and im afraid it ruined and I don't know how.
Last I had it out, we shot I cleaned it after windexing immediately at the range and packed it up. It has surface rust all on the bolt, chamber and barrel. Is it worth trying to bathe and scrub/re-blue or should I just scrap this piece of history and try to find another?
Just sold off my sks (woo yay etc) and opened up my rifle case where my nugget has been sitting for a few months and im afraid it ruined and I don't know how.
Last I had it out, we shot I cleaned it after windexing immediately at the range and packed it up. It has surface rust all on the bolt, chamber and barrel. Is it worth trying to bathe and scrub/re-blue or should I just scrap this piece of history and try to find another?
ski2060 wrote: Yeah, try a soak in a rust remover, scrub it down, and oil it.
I've never heard of anyone using windex in any way on a firearm for cleaning.
It neutralizes the salts from corrosive ammo...common practice.
I finally got enough pieces to get my 6.8 AR shooting. Now I am looking for a good scope and waiting to get the money to buy a BCM Keymod 15" rail for it.
My fully welded Uzi receiver came in this weekend and I got my parts kit put together. I love that little thing so far and it was fun and really easy to assemble. Unfortunately semi auto bolts are dried up and I am having a devil of a time locating one.
As for the foreseeable future, I can't buy anything, other than an Uzi bolt if I find one. I just bought another car and want to spice it up some. So until I get my cars worked out I need to hold off on any expensive purchases.
Carry that with Hornady Critical Defense 38 Special +p. That's all I've ever carried in my S&W J Frame. They have a lot of kick to them but work really well for defense.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: I would never describe .38 SP or .357 Mag as something you "have to deal with the recoil" on,
I have no doubt that a high speed, low drag tier 1 pro operator like yourself can shoot +P loads out of a 13 oz snubbie all day long with no ill effects, but for us mere mortals it can take a bit of getting used to
Different folks have different levels of experience and tolerances for recoil. I would be willing to bet that most folks would describe shooting +P or .357 out of a snub revolver as uncomfortable.
No seriously. I don't think of myself as anything special. I found the .357 Mag to be disappointing almost as much gak as people talked about it recoiling. I'm not a huge guy either. I even walk with a cane for feth's sake. Maybe it's because .38 SP +Ps was the bulk of my non-military pistol shooting for an age, personally? I would proscribe a lot of people need to...
It's a 9mm round girl scout. Quit crying and trying to act like you're being oppressed because a round that doesn't really recoil, does not in point of fact really recoil.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: It's a 9mm round girl scout. Quit crying and trying to act like you're being oppressed because a round that doesn't really recoil, does not in point of fact really recoil.
I don't know that's fair to say...I had a Smith snubby in .38 that would routinely cut my hand when shooting, and I've got huge hands...been shooting for 24 years so it's not a limpgripping thing. Little airweights are pretty snappy even for experienced shooters, and that combined with small grips make them generally uncomfortable to shoot in .38 and downright miserable to shoot in .357.
Probably has just as much to do with the pistol itself as it does with the round.
I have an auto loading 12 gauge shotgon. Remington Versa Max synthetic stock. I can grab any kind and size of 12 gauge shell from 2 3/4" - 3 1/2" and load it in, even mixed up, without having to change the barrel or action. Very versatile in that regard allowing me to grab any shell I see and use it. 5 different chokes and pretapped for sights/scope. Barrel is pretty long, however, at 28" but I use this gun for overhead goose hunting with 3 1/2" steel shot. This gun can really beat your shoulder into hamburg when using that steel shot.
I intend to pick up a bolt action .308 rifle sometime in the future for deer, caribou and moose. Maybe even a .338 lapua with muzzle breach. Only interest I have in the .308 rnd is that it's cheap and literally everywhere but I'm a bit hesitant for moose. I hate just wounding the animal and having to spend the next 4+ hrs tracking it to finish the poor beast off.
I also have an old WWII era .22 bolt action rifle that I got from my grandfather. Very heavy, rugged, durable beast. Still accurate too, not surprised considering how thick and heavy the barrel is. It's a great varmint gun but in general I used it to practice my aim at a nearby sandpit.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: It's a 9mm round girl scout. Quit crying and trying to act like you're being oppressed because a round that doesn't really recoil, does not in point of fact really recoil.
I'll quit crying as soon as a slick pro operator like yourself comes to the realization that we're not all double hard bastards who barely register .357 rounds fired out of an airweight revolver, and that many of us mere mortals do actually have to cope with what we perceive to be uncomfortable recoil.
Ruger LCR in .357, though I probably won't be shooting much .357 out of it.
Nice! Those LCRs are cool little guns. I know what you mean about shooting .357 out of such a small gun. I've never done it myself, but I've shot .38 Special +P out of a similar sized J-frame and the recoil is pretty robust. I can imagine .357 would have quite a bit more recoil. It's nice to have the option though.
I'll third the Hornady Critical Defense .38 Special +P as a carry round though. That should be a sufficient defensive round for a gun that size.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KalashnikovMarine wrote: It's a 9mm round girl scout. Quit crying and trying to act like you're being oppressed because a round that doesn't really recoil, does not in point of fact really recoil.
Have you fired .38 Special +P or .357 out of an airweight snubbie or equivalent?
ProwlerPC wrote:I have an auto loading 12 gauge shotgon. Remington Versa Max synthetic stock. I can grab any kind and size of 12 gauge shell from 2 3/4" - 3 1/2" and load it in, even mixed up, without having to change the barrel or action. Very versatile in that regard allowing me to grab any shell I see and use it. 5 different chokes and pretapped for sights/scope. Barrel is pretty long, however, at 28" but I use this gun for overhead goose hunting with 3 1/2" steel shot. This gun can really beat your shoulder into hamburg when using that steel shot.
I intend to pick up a bolt action .308 rifle sometime in the future for deer, caribou and moose. Maybe even a .338 lapua with muzzle breach. Only interest I have in the .308 rnd is that it's cheap and literally everywhere but I'm a bit hesitant for moose. I hate just wounding the animal and having to spend the next 4+ hrs tracking it to finish the poor beast off.
I also have an old WWII era .22 bolt action rifle that I got from my grandfather. Very heavy, rugged, durable beast. Still accurate too, not surprised considering how thick and heavy the barrel is. It's a great varmint gun but in general I used it to practice my aim at a nearby sandpit.
Nice stuff, keep in mind most .338 lapua stuff tends to be rather expensive however, at least from what I've seen. If you aren't trying to make 800m shots, .308 will probably be a better choice.
Ruger LCR in .357, though I probably won't be shooting much .357 out of it.
Nice! Those LCRs are cool little guns. I know what you mean about shooting .357 out of such a small gun. I've never done it myself, but I've shot .38 Special +P out of a similar sized J-frame and the recoil is pretty robust. I can imagine .357 would have quite a bit more recoil. It's nice to have the option though.
I'll third the Hornady Critical Defense .38 Special +P as a carry round though. That should be a sufficient defensive round for a gun that size.
Yeah, I got the .357 version as it was only a few dollars more from the place I picked it up at, and below MSRP, and I figure the extra couple ounces will help tame recoil in general, as you say, it's nice to have the option. I may try .357 for giggles, but that sub 2" barrel I think just generates too much flash and blast for what I'd like to deal with as a carry round if I have to take a follow up shot, particularly if in cramped and/or low light conditions.
I've heard consistently good things about Hornady CD and Speer Gold Dot thus far.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: It's a 9mm round girl scout. Quit crying and trying to act like you're being oppressed because a round that doesn't really recoil, does not in point of fact really recoil.
I don't know that's fair to say...I had a Smith snubby in .38 that would routinely cut my hand when shooting, and I've got huge hands...been shooting for 24 years so it's not a limpgripping thing. Little airweights are pretty snappy even for experienced shooters, and that combined with small grips make them generally uncomfortable to shoot in .38 and downright miserable to shoot in .357.
Probably has just as much to do with the pistol itself as it does with the round.
Indeed. I have a .44 model 29 that I would hotload and could shoot with great joy. Later I acquired .45 ACP ultra carry, and it made my hand shake after 14 rounds.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: It's a 9mm round girl scout. Quit crying and trying to act like you're being oppressed because a round that doesn't really recoil, does not in point of fact really recoil.
Perceived recoil is a funny thing. Grips and how your hand interacts with them (which is not all skill based) can make huge difference in perceived recoil. Not to mention the many different loads for .38, .357, and 9mm. I can tell you shooting a LCR in 9mm all day long is nothing like shooting even a small frame 9mm semi auto. but hey, maybe you slam fire 12guage rounds off your nut sack. You do have Marine in your user name
KalashnikovMarine wrote: It's a 9mm round girl scout. Quit crying and trying to act like you're being oppressed because a round that doesn't really recoil, does not in point of fact really recoil.
I don't know that's fair to say...I had a Smith snubby in .38 that would routinely cut my hand when shooting, and I've got huge hands...been shooting for 24 years so it's not a limpgripping thing. Little airweights are pretty snappy even for experienced shooters, and that combined with small grips make them generally uncomfortable to shoot in .38 and downright miserable to shoot in .357.
Probably has just as much to do with the pistol itself as it does with the round.
A light weight revolver with a short barrel was literally my only pistol for four or five years and that little .38 was my carry. Still do carry it as it happens. So maybe it's just me not being as limp wristed and soft handed as momma's little darling over there, but a .38 does not recoil. I've put plenty of that ammo in a wide variety of barrels and pistol weight configurations down range to be perfectly fine saying that. Cause I'm right.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: It's a 9mm round girl scout. Quit crying and trying to act like you're being oppressed because a round that doesn't really recoil, does not in point of fact really recoil.
Perceived recoil is a funny thing. Grips and how your hand interacts with them (which is not all skill based) can make huge difference in perceived recoil. Not to mention the many different loads for .38, .357, and 9mm. I can tell you shooting a LCR in 9mm all day long is nothing like shooting even a small frame 9mm semi auto. but hey, maybe you slam fire 12guage rounds off your nut sack. You do have Marine in your user name
Don't wear the title out mate, it took a lot of work to earn. Not sure what the tactical efficiency or training usage of the slam fire nutsack maneuver would be though. Army technique instead of Marine perhaps? We tend to go for a nice solid shouldered rifle or a two handed pistol grip for killing bad guys. Personally I prefer a aircraft mounted M2, because feth you and your friends. However, I won't disocunt the possibility that the 12 Gauge Nutsack Slamfire could be of some use to someone. We should ask Alex, he seems to be the world's leading expert in firearms, recoil and their real world practical application when he's not clinging to apron strings.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: It's a 9mm round girl scout. Quit crying and trying to act like you're being oppressed because a round that doesn't really recoil, does not in point of fact really recoil.
I don't know that's fair to say...I had a Smith snubby in .38 that would routinely cut my hand when shooting, and I've got huge hands...been shooting for 24 years so it's not a limpgripping thing. Little airweights are pretty snappy even for experienced shooters, and that combined with small grips make them generally uncomfortable to shoot in .38 and downright miserable to shoot in .357.
Probably has just as much to do with the pistol itself as it does with the round.
A light weight revolver with a short barrel was literally my only pistol for four or five years and that little .38 was my carry. Still do carry it as it happens. So maybe it's just me not being as limp wristed and soft handed as momma's little darling over there, but a .38 does not recoil. I've put plenty of that ammo in a wide variety of barrels and pistol weight configurations down range to be perfectly fine saying that. Cause I'm right.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: It's a 9mm round girl scout. Quit crying and trying to act like you're being oppressed because a round that doesn't really recoil, does not in point of fact really recoil.
Perceived recoil is a funny thing. Grips and how your hand interacts with them (which is not all skill based) can make huge difference in perceived recoil. Not to mention the many different loads for .38, .357, and 9mm. I can tell you shooting a LCR in 9mm all day long is nothing like shooting even a small frame 9mm semi auto. but hey, maybe you slam fire 12guage rounds off your nut sack. You do have Marine in your user name
Don't wear the title out mate, it took a lot of work to earn. Not sure what the tactical efficiency or training usage of the slam fire nutsack maneuver would be though. Army technique instead of Marine perhaps? We tend to go for a nice solid shouldered rifle or a two handed pistol grip for killing bad guys. Personally I prefer a aircraft mounted M2, because feth you and your friends. However, I won't disocunt the possibility that the 12 Gauge Nutsack Slamfire could be of some use to someone. We should ask Alex, he seems to be the world's leading expert in firearms, recoil and their real world practical application when he's not clinging to apron strings.
God you're such a wussy. A real man carries a double barreled Howda pistol. man up already.
A light weight revolver with a short barrel was literally my only pistol for four or five years and that little .38 was my carry. Still do carry it as it happens. So maybe it's just me not being as limp wristed and soft handed as momma's little darling over there, but a .38 does not recoil. I've put plenty of that ammo in a wide variety of barrels and pistol weight configurations down range to be perfectly fine saying that. Cause I'm right.
.38 out of a 1 lb revolver has as much recoil velocity as a 10mm round out of a 2.25 lb pistol, and more recoil than .460 S&W magnum out of a 4.5 lb pistol.
Nice stuff, keep in mind most .338 lapua stuff tends to be rather expensive however, at least from what I've seen. If you aren't trying to make 800m shots, .308 will probably be a better choice.
Well I'm ok with spending up to $2000 or maybe more for a proper system. The ammo price and wide spread availability can impact my decision on which type of system to buy. 12 gauge shells are easy to come by and can be found almost virtually anywhere so getting a 12 gauge was an easy decision, I spent $1250 on one that will take any load to make it all that more convenient. When it'll come to rifle I'll have to agree with you that a .308 will probably be a better choice but for different reasons. I got no trouble finding rnds for a .338 lapua up here but I won't be up here much longer and I need to find how readily available and widespread the ammo is. I already know the .308 rnd can be found almost virtually everywhere just like the 12 gauge shell so at the very least I'll fall back on a .308
I'm glad you noted the limited range of a .308. While I don't think I'll always do it but if the rifle fires off a fast enough bullet to keep accurate then I don't mind doing shots over 800m but the more important reason I'd try for something bigger then a .308 shell is specifically for moose hunting. The little extra punch needed to get through the shoulder plate makes for a much easier worry free shot, heck I'd even grab a .50 cal bolt action TAC-50 from Mcmillan if it wasn't a whopping $7999 bare bones. I've seen many moose in my 30+ decades of life and there's odd time I've seen hunters screw up when shooting them. What follows after is a horrible experience of hard labour, discomfort and incovenience. It's one of those things that convinces me that a bit of overkill without blowing up the food with explosives is kinda nice.
It's best to get what your comfortable with screw what anyone else thinks. In the academy I saw a 110 pound female handle a 12ga like she was born with it. Even the wanna be tough guys were impressed
Alright lets move on from the gakfest that has become the thread the last couple pages.
I am going to start looking at suppressors. MN is on the verge to make it legal to own them. Will know Friday.
I need some firearms time. Might be time to go to the range. Just found another brick of minimag. Almost have enough for a decent day with the 1911.22 I have.
ski2060 wrote: Nuggz... are you an Arfcommer? And do I know you from DayZ?
Yep! And nope.
Cool. When I played computer games with the Arf crew there was a guy with the handle of Nugs. Thought you might be the same guy.
Anyway, hello fellow Arfcommer!
yellowfever wrote: Good idea. Does anyone have any experience with the multi caliber suppressors. Are they any good.
The oil can suppressor (that attachment that lets you attach oil cans to the front of your rifle as a suppressor) is multi cal and works pretty well. Haven't handled it a ton, only saw it at the range with a guy I kinda know once or twice, but he likes it. From my understanding you really want caliber specific cans in the general sense. I have next to no knowledge base on suppressors outside of using them a little and general theory of use/design.
yellowfever wrote: Good idea. Does anyone have any experience with the multi caliber suppressors. Are they any good.
Could you post some models? I didn't know they made multicaliber suppressors.
Regarding versatility, you can use a larger suppressor on a smaller caliber, and often it's just as effective because the db reduction loss resulting from a wider port is offset by the greater volume of the larger caliber suppressors. So for example, a .308 suppressor will work very well on a 5.56 rifle. A 30 caliber suppressor is probably the most versatile thing you can own, since you can use it with 300 blackout and 5.56 both.
They make some nice handgun suppressors with changeable baffles so you can buy one 45. cal suppressor and all you need to do is swap out the baffle for 40. cal and 9mm. A really good pistol one is the Osprey on that site. You can't change it out for other calibers but it does not require suppressor sights to use it and its pretty light weight.
Many of them say to stay away from the novelty suppressors like the Surefire and Sig Sauer ones. They don't have a long lasting life compared to others.
I hear a lot of good things about Silencerco lately. Mostly because they have been very supportive of the silent MN group helping us get suppressors legalized. Which we did. The Governor signed the bill a couple hours ago (kind of surprising, he said he would veto any bill that would legalize them).
Part of the talk was also on the oil filter adapters. Apparently they are questionable if you can legally change the filter or not without another stamp. Either way, most people said if you were going to spend the money, either build your own, or just pay for a good one.
But I've used my .223 suppressor on my .22 LR. Still suppresses great but latter doesn't cycle right in pistol.
The other thing to remember is that with Browning tilting barrel pistols, the weight / timing needs to be right in order for it to cycle.
Also, need subsonic ammo to be truly suppressed.
Even though .45 is innately subsonic, I find subsonic 9mm or .22 LR to be much quieter (I guess that's obvious).
Edit - oh one more thing - there is a difference too between 'wet' and 'dry' suppressors. Former works better but you need to fill them. I like AAC myself but there are lots of good brands.
Does anyone have any recommendations for tactical lights? Particularly something compatible with common AR rail systems, and preferably something that does both constant beam and strobe?
Surefire tends to produce very robust and expensive lights with mediocre output. Most good LEDs are strong enough to fill the weapon light role. I've sold off my Surefires for Fenix lights and haven't looked back. For IR I definitely prefer the torch from TNVC to Surefire vampire units.
I like both Fenix, and streamlight. Surefire work well too. My daily carry light is a Wolfeyes, but I think they are out of buisness. Depending on how kitbash you want to get, you can almost always find a way to mount a light My fenix is mounted stargate style with .22 scope mounts to a side rail on a PS90. I have a giant UTG that I put on my Garand, but I prefere small lights with low weight. It is a great time for flashlights so you can go crazy! If the light itself does not come with a rail attachment there are third party company's such as mako, or magpul that make light holders for standard sized light housings.
KiloFiX wrote: Both sides of Texas Congress have approved Open Carry as of yesterday. Bill is on its way to Governor who says he'll sign it. Congrats Texas.
KiloFiX wrote: Both sides of Texas Congress have approved Open Carry as of yesterday. Bill is on its way to Governor who says he'll sign it. Congrats Texas.
Wyrmalla wrote: Well you've seen AR Pistols, but how about an M1 Garand Pistol? Stick a cheek stock on one of those and go to town at the range.
These are M1 CARBINES, not Garands. Wayyyy smaller round. Still cool though.
Hah! Woe, why did I write Garand? Yeah, its pretty obvious that they're carbines by all the holes along the top. ...And youknow because of the name of the video and how often the guy says the word "Carbine".
Anyhow, aye, I'd take the top one for the amount of extra work that went in and how overall it looks tidier. That and I'd rather have one of these than a cut down AK any day.
Heh, not that I'd want to fire a rifle that'd been cut down to a pistol at all, for the reasons mentioned in that video. Not that I'll ever really bother to either as unless its a rifle you can hardly get the permits for anything in this country as is. ^^
See they could fix the issues with it, or they could just do what the Russians do with their Mosin Nagants and not care... Obrez are one of the most common "pistols" in the former Soviet Union. =P
Though yes I'm aware that Mosins have different issues than Garands. ...Bar just the kick.
Top one is still an M1 Carbine and the Mosin has no gas system. Also "Obrez" pistols are a novelty and are by no means the "most common pistol in the former soviet union". That would be either the 1895 Nagant or the TT-33. Well, maybe the Mak too.
Though yes I'm aware that Mosins have different issues than Garands. ...Bar just the kick.
That cannot be fun to shoot. Between the kick of the round, the lack of stock, and a shorter barrel it just seems like a terrible shooting experience
Just google Obrez and sift through all the horror stories. The base gun's bad enough. IIRC the guys using these either brace them against something in the rare case they want to shoot at any sort of distance. However they're used like sawn-off shotguns (Obrez means "to cut" or "sawn"), i.e. at extremely short ranges. In Russia its difficult to get a hold of pistols, but Mosins are comparatively common, thus the converting of them into ad-hoc pistols.
Oh, and when I said "the most common pistol" I should have said "aye, just common". Its hardly like organised crime can't import foreign pistols on the truck load or just nab ones off of the military or local militia. Rather I guess they turn up when the guys don't have access to the regular stuff. Chechnya comes to mind for being a war where a lot were used (for whatever reason), though Borz were probably more common.
Alex C wrote: Top one is still an M1 Carbine and the Mosin has no gas system. Also "Obrez" pistols are a novelty and are by no means the "most common pistol in the former soviet union". That would be either the 1895 Nagant or the TT-33. Well, maybe the Mak too.
I can find no genuine pictures of Garand pistols.
For the record, the MiniG by Shuffs parkerizing is as small as you realisticly cut the Garand operating system. I used to have a picture in this thread of one used to scale a picture of a BT box set. Right now if you wish to build an obrez pistol in the US you can email CZ USA for a bolt action that has never been a rifle, they were about $500. This is the small Mauser action, with a 7.62x39 bolt. I almost got one to build (have a gunsmith build) into an obrez pistol. For the record the MiniG is about the most awsome carbine in the history of butt kicking carbines. I prefere the crappy WWII style (crappy cause it is made in China and will eventually banana peel on me) flash suppressor for looks, but a moderern compensator is spooky in recoil management.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I can dig up the CZ 527 info if anyone wants it.......you can build a 6.5 Grendel.........
with guns say cops treat them like ‘terrorists’ by asking for ID Joan Shipps
Joan Shipps
04 Jun 2015 at 17:30 ET
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Open Carry Texas members (Screenshot/Facebook)
Open Carry Texas members (Screenshot/Facebook)
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Abilene police apprehended concealed carry activists trespassing with assault weapons on private property, prompting a tense standoff between armed gun advocates and a team of officers carrying rifles.
The Abilene chapter of gun proliferation advocacy group Open Carry Texas posted a YouTube video on Wednesday, showing president CJ Grisham argue with police officers over his right to stand on a corner with two colleagues and an assault weapon each, strapped to their backs.
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Open Carry Texas says the clip shows footage of “an impromptu open carry near downtown Abilene after business hours.” Grisham shoots the film, which begins when he observes police near the street corner where he and two armed colleagues are standing.
“Whoa, whoa, whoa! What are y’all doing? What are you doing, man?” Grisham shouts toward the officers. “What the hell? We’re not breaking any laws.”
Grisham instructs one officer to order “[his] man” to “stop threatening me” and to “stand down.”
“He’s over there with an AR-15 in his hand!” Grisham shouts. “He’s telling me to drop my guns right now.” Dude points his finger toward a figure hiding in the distance. “Look at him. He’s at the ready. He’s got his hands on the pistol clip and everything.” Two officers begin to walk toward Grisham.
“I got my gun behind me and you guys are coming over here with your hands on your rifles like I’m a threat,” Grisham exclaims. When police attempt to speak with Grisham, he announces, “I want your hands off the rifles before I get comfortable.”
Grisham tells officers that he is within his rights to loiter roadside with high-powered weapons. “This is public property,” Grisham says. The cop, however, informs Grisham that he has actually been standing on private property, and that he and his cohorts are guilty of criminal trespassing.
Grisham asks why cops felt compelled to give a warning armed with AR-15s. When police pointed out Grisham too was in possession of a large weapon, he dismissed the concern since the gun was “on [his] back.”
“I’m a law-abiding citizen. I’m minding my own business,” Grisham complains to police. “Do you know why I’m feeling this way right now?”
“I feel threatened,” Grisham explains loudly, “because you are a police officer and you have people with rifles here that are threatening me.”
Grisham and his partners in crime elected to leave rather than escalate their dispute with law enforcement. But when he gets to his car — a silver minivan with an Open Carry Texas logo on the front driver’s side door — Grisham turns back toward cops to shout at them first before getting in. “You guys wanna come up on us like we’re some sorta terrorists, then I’m gonna respond in kind,” Grisham yells toward police, before exchanging a few more tense words, and driving off.
Open Carry Texas’ description of Grisham’s clip says it shows police acting “in a less than professional manner.” After the gun advocacy group contacted “senior leadership,” however, “they admitted that the officers were wrong, apologized, and promised corrective actions and retraining.”
The video’s opening statement says the film is “a training opportunity for law enforcement around the state on what NOT to do when encountering law abiding citizens exercising their right to keep and bear arms. Aggression only leads to needless escalation. We encourage officers to approach armed citizens with caution, but with courtesy. These types of encounters only serve to create division and distrust between the citizenry and police if allowed to continue.”
Grisham tells local news outlet KTAB that “an armed society is a polite society.” Guns are “not designed to kill,” Grisham tells reporters. “They’re not designed to shoot up movie theaters and schools. We’re trying to show what law abiding citizens look like that carry firearms and really remove that stigma.”
“They hope that their efforts of the day did not go unnoticed,” KTAB adds.
In 2012, Grisham had to pay a $2,000 fine for “interfering with police duties” when police stopped him walking along a road near an airport with an assault rifle and his young son.
“It’s getting to where a guy can’t open carry in peace anymore,” Grisham complained Twitter when he posted the video of his recent encounter with Abilene law enforcement. In his Twitter profile, Grisham writes, “I don’t pull punches. I’m an Oath Keeper, a veteran, & I’m not afraid to speak my mind. I own my opinions & won’t apologize for them. Liberty, justice, freedom.”
Grisham recently launched a Facebook page on which to chronicle developments in his career as an aspiring politician. A screenshot of Grisham’s announcement earlier this month that he is going into politics:
Screen Shot 2015-06-04 at 3.07.04 PM
Watch Open Carry Texas freak out at Abilene police for asking about the weapons they’re standing around with on private property:
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I've always taken "Assault" to mean "High rate of fire". Yes, I realize this would mean that most semi-auto pistols are 'assault' as well.
Or possibly weapons with burstfire settings, or full-auto settings.
Basically a weapon designed to be used in combat, as opposed to a weapon designed for use in hunting.
Also- what was the private property he was standing on? Was it a private residence? I always thought that sidewalks (where I assume he was standing- correct me if I'm wrong, please) were considered public.
However, his comment about 'guns aren't designed to kill' is just stupid. Better to say "Guns aren't designed to murder", if you're gonna go the 'people are dangerous, guns are tools' route. Guns are totally designed to kill. In fact, they're pretty terrible at anything else. At least a sword can be used as an oversized knife, and even then people readily admit that swords are designed purely as weapons.
Anvildude wrote: I've always taken "Assault" to mean "High rate of fire". Yes, I realize this would mean that most semi-auto pistols are 'assault' as well.
Early 20th Century British Soldiers were trained to shoot their bolt-action rifles at very high rates of fire. Are Lee-Enfields therefore "assault weapons"? The term simply has no meaning beyond trying to frighten stupid people.
Anvildude wrote: Or possibly weapons with burstfire settings, or full-auto settings.
These are legally termed "Machine Guns" in the US. Again, "Assault Weapon" is nonsense and not applicable.
Anvildude wrote: Guns are totally designed to kill. In fact, they're pretty terrible at anything else.
Anvildude wrote: I've always taken "Assault" to mean "High rate of fire". Yes, I realize this would mean that most semi-auto pistols are 'assault' as well.
Early 20th Century British Soldiers were trained to shoot their bolt-action rifles at very high rates of fire. Are Lee-Enfields therefore "assault weapons"? The term simply has no meaning beyond trying to frighten stupid people.
The MAD MINUTE! I've done that with one once. Its awesome (when its not for real of course) fun. BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
I still have a tin of .303 rounds (but no .303). If I could find a good reproduction .303 at a decent price I'd buy that sucker, put a scope on it, and develop a bad Madonna British accent.
Anvildude wrote: I've always taken "Assault" to mean "High rate of fire". Yes, I realize this would mean that most semi-auto pistols are 'assault' as well.
Early 20th Century British Soldiers were trained to shoot their bolt-action rifles at very high rates of fire. Are Lee-Enfields therefore "assault weapons"? The term simply has no meaning beyond trying to frighten stupid people.
The MAD MINUTE! I've done that with one once. Its awesome (when its not for real of course) fun. BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
I still have a tin of .303 rounds (but no .303). If I could find a good reproduction .303 at a decent price I'd buy that sucker, put a scope on it, and develop a bad Madonna British accent.
I have 4 Lee-Enfields and have done mad-minute with all of them. It is hugely satisfying
Got a couple of cans of 50's surplus .303 ammo, all in clips, in bandoleers. I'm loathe to use it because the only .303 I see these days is $2/round hunting ammo and even that's rare.
Anvildude wrote: I've always taken "Assault" to mean "High rate of fire". Yes, I realize this would mean that most semi-auto pistols are 'assault' as well.
Or possibly weapons with burstfire settings, or full-auto settings.
Basically a weapon designed to be used in combat, as opposed to a weapon designed for use in hunting.
Also- what was the private property he was standing on? Was it a private residence? I always thought that sidewalks (where I assume he was standing- correct me if I'm wrong, please) were considered public.
However, his comment about 'guns aren't designed to kill' is just stupid. Better to say "Guns aren't designed to murder", if you're gonna go the 'people are dangerous, guns are tools' route. Guns are totally designed to kill. In fact, they're pretty terrible at anything else. At least a sword can be used as an oversized knife, and even then people readily admit that swords are designed purely as weapons.
An assault rifle is typically defined as a rifle that is chambered for an intermediate round, is select fire capable, and is magazine fed. The AR15 cannot be an assault rifle as it lacks select fire capability.
Anvildude wrote: I've always taken "Assault" to mean "High rate of fire". Yes, I realize this would mean that most semi-auto pistols are 'assault' as well.
Early 20th Century British Soldiers were trained to shoot their bolt-action rifles at very high rates of fire. Are Lee-Enfields therefore "assault weapons"? The term simply has no meaning beyond trying to frighten stupid people.
The MAD MINUTE! I've done that with one once. Its awesome (when its not for real of course) fun. BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
I still have a tin of .303 rounds (but no .303). If I could find a good reproduction .303 at a decent price I'd buy that sucker, put a scope on it, and develop a bad Madonna British accent.
I have 4 Lee-Enfields and have done mad-minute with all of them. It is hugely satisfying
Got a couple of cans of 50's surplus .303 ammo, all in clips, in bandoleers. I'm loathe to use it because the only .303 I see these days is $2/round hunting ammo and even that's rare.
Thefirearmblog just posted a video of a military rifle competition in Scandinavia that had some crazy rapid fire bolt action work. They shot Closing the bolt with their thumb and pulled the trigger with their middle finger.
Many guys who shoot Mad Minute operate the bolt with thumb and index finger while the trigger is pulled with the middle finger. It's very fast, especially with a Lee-Enfield action.
Yeah, media and legal terms in the U.S. Are misleading.
Conventionally, a machine gun is some sort of belt or box fed weapon capable of prolonged suppressive fire. Usually fired off a tripod / bipod or vehicle mounted. Legally, in the U.S., a machine gun is any fully automatic / select fire firearm. These have been restricted since the 1980s.
Conventionally, an assault rifle is a select fire rifle that can still be toted around by individual infantry and fired on the move. Starting with the Stg44 and then the AK later. But in the U.S., the media and ATF unfairly like to refer to any SEMI- automatic firearm that "looks scary" as an assault rifle.
KiloFiX wrote: Yeah, media and legal terms in the U.S. Are misleading.
Conventionally, a machine gun is some sort of belt or box fed weapon capable of prolonged suppressive fire. Usually fired off a tripod / bipod or vehicle mounted. Legally, in the U.S., a machine gun is any fully automatic / select fire firearm. These have been restricted since the 1980s.
Conventionally, an assault rifle is a select fire rifle that can still be toted around by individual infantry and fired on the move. Starting with the Stg44 and then the AK later. But in the U.S., the media and ATF unfairly like to refer to any SEMI- automatic firearm that "looks scary" as an assault rifle.
So to piggyback on machine guns - post-86 machineguns can't be *sold* but I think they've been restricted since the 30s.
Alex C wrote: Many guys who shoot Mad Minute operate the bolt with thumb and index finger while the trigger is pulled with the middle finger. It's very fast, especially with a Lee-Enfield action.
Funny I have never seen that before, but I also don't have any old British training manuals that cover the mad minute with a bolt action. Stranger still I was taught that technique to close the bolt while de cocking a Mauser bolt action (actually squeezing the trigger as you close the bolt so it decocks) but never tried shooting that way. Weekend plans confirmed! I'm a fast bolt action shooter, wonder if I can speed that up with a middle trigger finger!
Alex C wrote: Many guys who shoot Mad Minute operate the bolt with thumb and index finger while the trigger is pulled with the middle finger. It's very fast, especially with a Lee-Enfield action.
There's a video that iraqveteran8888 did shooting a .22 bolt action that way and man he was slinging bullets with the quickness.
I read that the army uses a 25 yard BZO, thus making the effective range about 250 yards. I never tried that with a red dot. Do you guys think/know if it will work with a red dot.
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