Fusion commanders dont need them and Fusion Commanders do nowhere near the damage.
I'm guessing you mean "per model". If you mean per point, I just don't see how a Stormsurge is more efficient for taking out that enemy unit that has to be taken out immediately.
Well lets start with the premise. Every platform has a timer. That timer is its wounds. The Commander has a much shorter timer with which to actually dish damage. His output is excellent and no one denies that (well...they shouldn't deny it?) but he is going to have to be close and he is going to probably be in harms way when he unleashes his particular fussilade, making his timer pretty relevant.
That Fusion Commander is gonna do work on the round he pops. This goes without saying.
That also goes without saying for the Stormsurge.
So we can get into assumptions on this or that but the basic thing here is, both do a boat load of work all at one time and should successfully end the threat they were aiming at if they unload completely.
The Commander just won't have as long to do it again. And I find that to be pretty important information. I cannot foresee every permutation, but the essential fact is, he simply cannot take it like the Stormsurge can. He also cannot deal that damage AND deal damage to lesser targets like the Stormsurge can. He's probably deep Striking in with a drone screen in order to get him a second shot. I think that's a good idea for a short range character who wants to stay alive. It may even work but its an expensive excessory (since to be fair you need a good sized drone curtain in order to ensure he stays safe as possible).
I have zero problem with the Fusion commander. I already said this pretty clearly. But guys like MilkmanAI want one solution to be the only solution so (presumably) they can look like a genius for figuring out what might be the most obvious thing in 40K.
What I have cautioned people about is simply accepting the falsehood that because one thing is very good, its the "only" thing to do. It's absurd.
I'm all for fielding a variety of lists. I look forward to GW continuing to tweak 8th so that there will be more variety to competitive lists. Stormsurge is not terrible, but Fusion Commanders kind of stand out right now. They are more effective big model killers, and I've found them to be more survivable than they look at first glance. If somebody wants them dead, they're dead (welcome to 8th). But it's usually not an efficient use of resources.
I field two to stay competitive, but consider it being nice.
I just don't see how a Stormsurge is more efficient.
Well lets start with the premise. Every platform has a timer. That timer is its wounds. The Commander has a much shorter timer with which to actually dish damage.
But the commander is a character and can be protected by drones.
This is what frustrates me Jancoran, the lack of talking up both sides. The commander also has direct access to drones and is protected by all drones, which can make him pretty damned resilient.
The StormSurge, on T1, will do very very little amounts of work because you need;
- Markerlights (likely 10+) to be in range of a single target
- To be within 20" (you seem to favour the shotgun in your comparisons, so we'll go with that)
- Not moving, to get the +1 innate
- Being a massive target, unable to hide focus for the enemy army, meaning it can easily get reduced down to BS5+
Jancoran wrote: hitting with it almost assuredly without fail (yes it happens...of course).
Requires hitting with markerlights, so your 2+ re-rollable is actually a number (1 or 10 etc) of 4+ to-hit rolls followed by the 2+ re-rollable.
Fusion commanders are great. Triple ATS Ion commanders are great. Mixing in both with lots of extra drones (admittedly, it comes down the downside of first blood... but you can choose to drop after winning First Blood - perhaps!) is fantastic.
I also think the Havoc suits to be amazing for the same reason solo-suits in 7ed were good. Allowed you to field a decent amount of concentrated firepower. The 4 drone contingent is the icing on the cake and I would pick that over the ATS because the DC can impact every drone on the table and provides flexibility whilst the ATS simply adds to damaged on the burst-cannons. 32 Str5 shots hitting on 4's, for 130pts is, I think, one of the most cost efficient sources of Str4 firepower around (ignoring pure gun drones, of course!).
I'm also a champion for mobile markerlights, I think marker drones are very good when paired with a drone controller and the rifle-varient havoc fits really well with MLD's.
The argument I use for not liking the stormsurge is that it's not hard to kill. If you give it an invul save for 40 pts it helps a ton, but it's still like 20 wounds with T7 and 3+. It's basically like killing 2 rhinos with an invul save. It's saving grace is that the pulse cannon thing is about the only good gun on it. The cluster rockets, eh who cares, a squad of fire warriors with a fireblade does the same thing without the risk of rolling terribly for number of shots. The destroyer missiles aren't terrible, but I don't think they're good enough for the cost of the unit. It's just not enough firepower for its point cost and relative fragility.
The biggest thing that ruins the storm surge is that it's not a battlesuit. You can't use drones as ablative wounds for it. Granted, it might be too unkillable if it could.
On Markerlights: I love markers, but there's too much disparity between the number of hits and what they do. For most units you need either 1 hit, or 5, and anything in between is a waste. But 5 markerlight hits on something big really helps Fire Warriors make the most out of their cheap, massed S5 shooting.
xmbk wrote: I'm all for fielding a variety of lists. I look forward to GW continuing to tweak 8th so that there will be more variety to competitive lists. Stormsurge is not terrible, but Fusion Commanders kind of stand out right now. They are more effective big model killers, and I've found them to be more survivable than they look at first glance. If somebody wants them dead, they're dead (welcome to 8th). But it's usually not an efficient use of resources.
I field two to stay competitive, but consider it being nice.
I field noFusion Commanders... and I'm competitive. if I fielded two, i would...also be competitive. And that's really my point. The Fusion Commander is awesome sauce, but we have to avoid, as Tau Generals, getting the tunnel vision that seems popular on the forums. We have to consider all kinds of solutions and I LOVE that 8th Edition really does allow you to compete hard without the so called "sure things".
I use Kroot Hounds. No one i know uses them and I've never seen them fielded other than on my own boards before. they are hidden gems at their jobs though. they linebreak, they do it cheaply and they do it quickly. They can actually DO damage, albeit, don't count on them being maulers. and of course the Hounds are excellent for tying something up and can use the Insane Bravery Strategem to good effect (they tend to like to explode if you don't when they take on a couple units at a time, but you only need them to hold for one round anyways). Just an example.
The Stormsurge is there because of several very specific things that you ABSOLUTELY must be able to deal with ...because if you dont you'll be playing for second place a lot. 2nd place is highly respectable (top 8 in fact is good when its a field of 32 after all), but it's not why you're there. The ONE THING you just can't handle dooms you.
Alpha Legion is a pretty hard counter to the Commander. if theres enough buffers around its most likely target. So is not having a very good target for the Fusionmander, as when conscripts and superheavies kind of get together (and they are winning BIG TIME events right now).
No. I think I will definitely continue to advocate that the variety in 8th Edition is excellent and the Stormsurge is not as good as it once was but it still holds the same vital role.
On Markerlights: I love markers, but there's too much disparity between the number of hits and what they do. For most units you need either 1 hit, or 5, and anything in between is a waste. But 5 markerlight hits on something big really helps Fire Warriors make the most out of their cheap, massed S5 shooting.
My force has 28 markerlights. I regularly get 2 targets "5'd". And when i do, erasure protocols engage. It's pretty cool. The targets are usually high value and can threaten my big boy, so we wallop them first.
Conventional wisdom has it that if you shut down the markerlights, you can shut the Tau down. Obviously, I benefit from this maxim when they try, like i said, because 4 are characters, 10 are tougher Drones, and 14 are hidden in Gunrigs. So It's kind of a chore to try. And when they try, it SEEMS to take a lot more resources than the enemy would prefer that it did. If they fail ( I can only think of one game where they killed enough markerlights to the point I was like "well...poop"), they have not accomplished anything other than angering the T'au Empire. =)
I probably wouldn't recommend taking 28 Markerlights in a lot of armies. It happens to work really well in mine because I would have already taken the Pathfinders anyways so all I'm really doing in their cae is paying a few extra points to add the versdatility to a unit i would have taken without the Markerlights. That isn't the case in all lists obviously so the need will vary.
unless i missed something, markerlights benefit from markerlights.
I tend to use my Cadre to start the stacking, since he hits on 2s. That lets the rest reroll 1s and get the 5stack easier.
I use Kroot Hounds. No one i know uses them and I've never seen them fielded other than on my own boards before. they are hidden gems at their jobs though. they linebreak, they do it cheaply and they do it quickly. They can actually DO damage, albeit, don't count on them being maulers. and of course the Hounds are excellent for tying something up and can use the Insane Bravery Strategem to good effect (they tend to like to explode if you don't when they take on a couple units at a time, but you only need them to hold for one round anyways). Just an example.
Get off your high hound! You're not the only one. I field 16 of them.
I use Kroot Hounds. No one i know uses them and I've never seen them fielded other than on my own boards before. they are hidden gems at their jobs though. they linebreak, they do it cheaply and they do it quickly. They can actually DO damage, albeit, don't count on them being maulers. and of course the Hounds are excellent for tying something up and can use the Insane Bravery Strategem to good effect (they tend to like to explode if you don't when they take on a couple units at a time, but you only need them to hold for one round anyways). Just an example.
Get off your high hound! You're not the only one. I field 16 of them.
This pleases me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: unless i missed something, markerlights benefit from markerlights.
I tend to use my Cadre to start the stacking, since he hits on 2s. That lets the rest reroll 1s and get the 5stack easier.
Vineheart01 wrote: unless i missed something, markerlights benefit from markerlights.
I tend to use my Cadre to start the stacking, since he hits on 2s. That lets the rest reroll 1s and get the 5stack easier.
Shooting attacks are made one at a time per model basis. So for example, your five pathfinders in a squad shoot lights at enemy unit you can (and should) roll one at a time. When the first one hits the rest benefit as the markerlight effect takes place immediately.
I'm going to play around with multi-wound denial and Tau infantry, just to see what can be done. It's similar to some of the AM tourney lists that focus on points efficient single wound models. If you take just infantry and characters the opponent loses most of the efficiency out of his heavy weapons, and a lot of his special weapons. This kind of list also tends to be model heavy, and so does a nice job denying Alpha strike in a lot of it's forms.
The real question is can great masses of S5 guns backed by Fusion Commanders do enough wounds to big targets?
The broad strokes look like this (at 2000pts):
Aun'Va
3 Fusion Commanders w drone controllers
2 Fireblades
2 Ghostkeels with BCs, Rakers, ATS, and drone controllers
4 x 12 man Strike Teams
2x 10 Kroot Warriors
3 x 10 Pathfinders w 3 Ion rifle, MLs, and PA drones
3 x 8 Gun drones
2 x 8 Kroot Hounds
If I went whole hog the GKs don't fit, but they're -2 TH so I can use the cool models ands tell myself they're a good distraction. Plus they'll be fronted by lots o' drones.
The Kroot stuff does area denial and line breaking, while the drones and suits work flanks and the gunline shoots a lot buffed by fireblades and pulse drones.
Thoughts? As a general build idea? I feel like it could be optimized more....
Multi wound denial is the concept behind my list on the previous page. It's pretty solid. Surprisingly, it has dogs. . I think their best use is blocking charges.
I feel like there needs to a few more guns that can deal with shizz like 5 AC Razors, or other spammed T7 3+ W shenanigans. Your list seems to have the same lack, but also has more S5 shooting. How do you do against T7 spam?
Fenris-77 wrote: I'm going to play around with multi-wound denial and Tau infantry, just to see what can be done. It's similar to some of the AM tourney lists that focus on points efficient single wound models. If you take just infantry and characters the opponent loses most of the efficiency out of his heavy weapons, and a lot of his special weapons. This kind of list also tends to be model heavy, and so does a nice job denying Alpha strike in a lot of it's forms.
The real question is can great masses of S5 guns backed by Fusion Commanders do enough wounds to big targets?
The broad strokes look like this (at 2000pts):
Aun'Va
3 Fusion Commanders w drone controllers
2 Fireblades
2 Ghostkeels with BCs, Rakers, ATS, and drone controllers
4 x 12 man Strike Teams
2x 10 Kroot Warriors
3 x 10 Pathfinders w 3 Ion rifle, MLs, and PA drones
3 x 8 Gun drones
2 x 8 Kroot Hounds
If I went whole hog the GKs don't fit, but they're -2 TH so I can use the cool models ands tell myself they're a good distraction. Plus they'll be fronted by lots o' drones.
The Kroot stuff does area denial and line breaking, while the drones and suits work flanks and the gunline shoots a lot buffed by fireblades and pulse drones.
Thoughts? As a general build idea? I feel like it could be optimized more....
Sems solid. I'm a little surprised that i keep seeing Ion Rifles used in Tau forces.
It's a nice upgrade for the points IMO - it's no plasma gun, but what is?. The Rail option is just too pricey for my tastes. In a list like mine I'm happy just to have some higher S shots to help put some wounds on T 7 stuff, plus there's so much rerolling of 1's in the list that overcharging should be fine most turns if necessary. I'm considering missile pods for the Strikes for the same reason.
Fenris-77 wrote: I feel like there needs to a few more guns that can deal with shizz like 5 AC Razors, or other spammed T7 3+ W shenanigans. Your list seems to have the same lack, but also has more S5 shooting. How do you do against T7 spam?
Haven't faced anything I can't outshoot yet, largely because most lists are overpaying for big guns that don't earn their keep. Not hard for this list to remove 4 Razors in a turn, even after taking a turn of shooting. Fusion and Vespids drop, so they will always get a nasty turn of shooting, and they are the only thing close to juicy targets. So far, attrition has favored me. It's really Kill Points that are a problem, but on the flip side it excels at objective claiming.
Hey guys. New to Tau here. Is there a consolidated list of tiers for units or a compilation of the overall Tau status somewhere or I better start reading from the first page of the thread?
I agree with most of what is stated in the first post of that thread, and tournament lists have echoed the same sentiments, even though we can't really compete with the current most successful lists from other armies.
arhurt wrote: Hey guys. New to Tau here. Is there a consolidated list of tiers for units or a compilation of the overall Tau status somewhere or I better start reading from the first page of the thread?
It would take you a while to read everything so here's a rushed overview:
Best stuff -
-Commanders (Quadruple Fusion Blaster or quadruple Missile Pods in general)
-Shadowsun
-Stealths
-Pathfinders
-Shield Drones/Gun Drones/Marker Drones
-Vespids
Good stuff-
-Ghostkeels
-Strike and Breacher teams
-Piranhas
-Crisis
Useful stuff -
-Firesight Marksmen
-Cadre Fireblades
-Ethereals
-Kroot Hounds and Carnivores
-All Drones again
Good on paper but not worth its price stuff-
-Riptides
-Stormsurge
-Broadsides
-Hammerheads and arguably Longstrike
-Devilfish
Haechi wrote:
Best stuff -
-Commanders (quadruple Missile Pods in general) (1)
Good stuff-
-Piranhas (2)
-Crisis (3)
Trash stuff-
Sunshark (4)
Disagree with these parts.
(1) Cyclic Ion Blaster works better than Missile Pod, costing almost 2/3 of the latter. All Missile Pods have over Cyclic Ion Blasters is range; with pinpoint deeps trike from today, this is moot.
(2) I've tested Piranhas and they aren't really good. Either you use them in units of 1-2 models or be sure to have turn 1 and then unleash the seekers. And yet, in big groups, they're very susceptible to morale.
(3) Flamer crisis are indeed good. The other weapon choices - Commanders do better.
(4) Sunshark isn't trash - it's situational. Against the likes of Orks, Astra Militarum and Tyranids, Sunsharks shine. Versus Imperial Knights or multi-wound models, it isn't that good. All depends on the local meta.
CplPunishment wrote:Hey everybody. I'm helping a friend get started with Tau, but I haven't used tau since 5th edition. What is the best load-out for fire warriors?
Pulse Rifles. With the advent of the Breachers' weapons, there's no much point in using Pulse Carbines for Firewarriors
CplPunishment wrote:Hey everybody. I'm helping a friend get started with Tau, but I haven't used tau since 5th edition. What is the best load-out for fire warriors?
Pulse Rifles. With the advent of the Breachers' weapons, there's no much point in using Pulse Carbines for Firewarriors
Thanks for the input, but what are breachers and what do they do? My understanding is that the new firewarrior sprues come with this new gun. I got a nice unused sprue of fire warriors in the 7th ed kill team SM vs Tau box. I want to donate 6 so he can start with a minimum squad. Am I wrong that you can't go wrong with Pulse Rifles? I might just donate all 12 so he can have 6 Rifles and 6 breachers. What are your thoughts?
arhurt wrote: Hey guys. New to Tau here. Is there a consolidated list of tiers for units or a compilation of the overall Tau status somewhere or I better start reading from the first page of the thread?
Avoid that thinking. The most important thing is HOW you plan to win. the units you use dont define that. It defines them. In my opinion. =)
You need reliable Line Breakers. You need reliable First Blood. You need reliable ways to kill Warlords. You need reliable ways to control objectives when the time comes (which means mobility). And then you need to kill things (last on the list although it usually gets first billing).
Figure out HOW you want to win and then figure out the units. If all you do is take some super powerful stuff and hope you get first turn...well... I mean... it works sometimes, but...
So, it sounds like Tau have changed quite a bit. the last time I played with them, their squads were 6-12 soldiers strong. Now it seems they've taken the Imperium's preference for increments of 5. I haven't looked inside the xenos index, but can you tell me if this is true? Can't help but wonder why this changed.
CplPunishment wrote: So, it sounds like Tau have changed quite a bit. the last time I played with them, their squads were 6-12 soldiers strong. Now it seems they've taken the Imperium's preference for increments of 5. I haven't looked inside the xenos index, but can you tell me if this is true? Can't help but wonder why this changed.
CplPunishment wrote:Hey everybody. I'm helping a friend get started with Tau, but I haven't used tau since 5th edition. What is the best load-out for fire warriors?
Pulse Rifles. With the advent of the Breachers' weapons, there's no much point in using Pulse Carbines for Firewarriors
Thanks for the input, but what are breachers and what do they do? My understanding is that the new firewarrior sprues come with this new gun. I got a nice unused sprue of fire warriors in the 7th ed kill team SM vs Tau box. I want to donate 6 so he can start with a minimum squad. Am I wrong that you can't go wrong with Pulse Rifles? I might just donate all 12 so he can have 6 Rifles and 6 breachers. What are your thoughts?
Breachers are a close-range variant for Firewarriors (the old Firewarriors you knew are now called Strikers). Breachers have a gun that gets better as you get closer to the enemy. From 15" (the max range) it's pretty meh, but at 5" or less, it is pretty powerful.
CplPunishment wrote:Hey everybody. I'm helping a friend get started with Tau, but I haven't used tau since 5th edition. What is the best load-out for fire warriors?
Pulse Rifles. With the advent of the Breachers' weapons, there's no much point in using Pulse Carbines for Firewarriors
Thanks for the input, but what are breachers and what do they do? My understanding is that the new firewarrior sprues come with this new gun. I got a nice unused sprue of fire warriors in the 7th ed kill team SM vs Tau box. I want to donate 6 so he can start with a minimum squad. Am I wrong that you can't go wrong with Pulse Rifles? I might just donate all 12 so he can have 6 Rifles and 6 breachers. What are your thoughts?
Breachers are a close-range variant for Firewarriors (the old Firewarriors you knew are now called Strikers). Breachers have a gun that gets better as you get closer to the enemy. From 15" (the max range) it's pretty meh, but at 5" or less, it is pretty powerful.
Breachers go well inside Devilfishes
What is the strength of a breacher? It sounds like they need a devilfish to be effective, so I might suggest he sticks with rifles for now.
Thing about breachers is the invul is a trap. Even if you get it, its just a 5++ and its the easiest ability to pick off since its not a character and its not attached to the unit.
Theyre better off not even taking it and just putting the points elsewhere. Even with the invul they tend to just die after they come out of a fish anyway, either from charges or return fire just eating through it. Causing 10 damage to T3 models with a 5++ isnt that tough to do.
If they can get the whole unit within 5" of something its probably going to be shredded though. So in a sense they can be considered a unit deleter...that costs an arm and a leg to do it and gives your enemy about 2 turns to pop the devilfish before it does anything.
i'm glad i only bought 1 unit of them. I dont see myself using them anymore
Vineheart01 wrote: Thing about breachers is the invul is a trap. Even if you get it, its just a 5++ and its the easiest ability to pick off since its not a character and its not attached to the unit.
Theyre better off not even taking it and just putting the points elsewhere. Even with the invul they tend to just die after they come out of a fish anyway, either from charges or return fire just eating through it. Causing 10 damage to T3 models with a 5++ isnt that tough to do.
If they can get the whole unit within 5" of something its probably going to be shredded though. So in a sense they can be considered a unit deleter...that costs an arm and a leg to do it and gives your enemy about 2 turns to pop the devilfish before it does anything.
i'm glad i only bought 1 unit of them. I dont see myself using them anymore
Breachers arent used as just one unit. If you are going to go with breachers, you have to have multiple units.
If i'm deep striking a unit of 2 suits with 3 CIBs, 1 drone controller sarge with only 2 CIBs, and their accompanying drones, would it be worthwhile to break up the drones between gun and marker (to get those re-roll 1's on the overcharge) or should I keep them all gun?
If i'm deep striking a unit of 2 suits with 3 CIBs, 1 drone controller sarge with only 2 CIBs, and their accompanying drones, would it be worthwhile to break up the drones between gun and marker (to get those re-roll 1's on the overcharge) or should I keep them all gun?
That depends. Are you going to get markerlight from elsewhere? Generally, having at least a few marker drones dropping in with suits is a great way to protect them and make sure you get at least one hit.
Vineheart01 wrote: Thing about breachers is the invul is a trap. Even if you get it, its just a 5++ and its the easiest ability to pick off since its not a character and its not attached to the unit.
Theyre better off not even taking it and just putting the points elsewhere. Even with the invul they tend to just die after they come out of a fish anyway, either from charges or return fire just eating through it. Causing 10 damage to T3 models with a 5++ isnt that tough to do.
If they can get the whole unit within 5" of something its probably going to be shredded though. So in a sense they can be considered a unit deleter...that costs an arm and a leg to do it and gives your enemy about 2 turns to pop the devilfish before it does anything.
i'm glad i only bought 1 unit of them. I dont see myself using them anymore
Breachers arent used as just one unit. If you are going to go with breachers, you have to have multiple units.
Even then they're squishy enough that you're going to lose them in droves the turn after disembarking, assuming you don't lose a passel of them prior to getting on target because their Devilfish gets popped. If you're going to drop 225-ish points on the Breachers and DF you need to build a list that provides the opponent with more pressing things to shoot at than the DF. Assuming you're taking two units that 450-500 points spent on two transports and 20 dudes (that's about 25% of a list right there. That leaves me with build questions...
1. What does the rest if that list looks like if it's going to distract fire form the DF?
2. Would 30 Vespids not be a more reliable expenditure of the same points? Similar (better IMO) shooting profile, guaranteed 1st turn on target?
I'm not trying to convince anyone not to take Breachers, I'm just curious what kind of lists people are taking them in.
If i'm deep striking a unit of 2 suits with 3 CIBs, 1 drone controller sarge with only 2 CIBs, and their accompanying drones, would it be worthwhile to break up the drones between gun and marker (to get those re-roll 1's on the overcharge) or should I keep them all gun?
That depends. Are you going to get markerlight from elsewhere? Generally, having at least a few marker drones dropping in with suits is a great way to protect them and make sure you get at least one hit.
Well, i've gone 2 units of 7 units of 7 pathfinders sitting in my backfield. (though 2 in each squad have ion rifles instead of markerlights). So I might have it covered, but they also might not have LoS to nail the target. So I guess this really is a question of redundancy.
2. Would 30 Vespids not be a more reliable expenditure of the same points? Similar (better IMO) shooting profile, guaranteed 1st turn on target?
I think Vespids are amazing and way better than Breachers in any form. I'm fielding 9 for now and I think I'll get more at some point.
Yeah, I'd tend to agree - I want to field a bunch. My only problem is that I don't really care for the minis. I was considering doing some sort of converted Drone thingummy to use instead. Also, they're out of stock online for me, and have been for a while. Hmm... I think they add some nice visual difference to a Tau list too.
I like it, and yeah, not cheap. I might prefer more of a backpack look, straps and whatnot, but that's doable with greenstuff. I've seen a couple of jetpack bits from 3rd parties that might work too. Thanks! After seeing those I'm pretty sure I want to convert my own from Tau parts. One way or another they'll get into my army.
Vineheart01 wrote: Thing about breachers is the invul is a trap. Even if you get it, its just a 5++ and its the easiest ability to pick off since its not a character and its not attached to the unit.
Theyre better off not even taking it and just putting the points elsewhere. Even with the invul they tend to just die after they come out of a fish anyway, either from charges or return fire just eating through it. Causing 10 damage to T3 models with a 5++ isnt that tough to do.
If they can get the whole unit within 5" of something its probably going to be shredded though. So in a sense they can be considered a unit deleter...that costs an arm and a leg to do it and gives your enemy about 2 turns to pop the devilfish before it does anything.
i'm glad i only bought 1 unit of them. I dont see myself using them anymore
Breachers arent used as just one unit. If you are going to go with breachers, you have to have multiple units.
Even then they're squishy enough that you're going to lose them in droves the turn after disembarking, assuming you don't lose a passel of them prior to getting on target because their Devilfish gets popped. If you're going to drop 225-ish points on the Breachers and DF you need to build a list that provides the opponent with more pressing things to shoot at than the DF. Assuming you're taking two units that 450-500 points spent on two transports and 20 dudes (that's about 25% of a list right there. That leaves me with build questions...
1. What does the rest if that list looks like if it's going to distract fire form the DF?
2. Would 30 Vespids not be a more reliable expenditure of the same points? Similar (better IMO) shooting profile, guaranteed 1st turn on target?
I'm not trying to convince anyone not to take Breachers, I'm just curious what kind of lists people are taking them in.
It helps that Devilfish are actually good this edition. I think it's 127 points for a Fish with gun drones.
Breachers are a good counter unit too. Keep them mid field in the devilfish and when an enemy comes close pile out and blast them. They work rather well with Darkstrider too. Lower a T7 vehicle to 6 to wound on 4's, or lower a T4 unit to 3 to wound on 2's
If i'm deep striking a unit of 2 suits with 3 CIBs, 1 drone controller sarge with only 2 CIBs, and their accompanying drones, would it be worthwhile to break up the drones between gun and marker (to get those re-roll 1's on the overcharge) or should I keep them all gun?
I like a squad of 3 or 4 suits with 2 CIBs and an ATS. The extra AP really helps, especially when you're overcharging it against vehicles. Saves 8ppm too. I tend to run shield drones with my crisis suits and teams of gun drones separately.
Yeah, I don't mind the DF at 127 - 12 dice, even at close range, isn't bad at all. For me it's more about build. If the only big targets in your list are a couple of Devil Fish they're going to get pounded fast. So, really, by taking them at all you;re also (mostly) committing to taking some other similar units to help spread the AT love around. Mind you, the DF isn't that scary, so any selection of other suits should probably do the trick - anything that makes the opponent make choices about his target priority with certain weapons. He isn't going to make a mistake unless you give him the opportunity is my thinking.
I also love that the DF has 'For the Greater Good' - the extra 12 dice worth of overwatch could be helpful.
Wakshaani wrote: Warriors really, really need to all be given Pulse Pistols. This could really help our close combat issue without breaking thematics.
I used to think like that too, but... we can leave melee any time. If you have Darkstrider nearby, one of those retreating units can fire back - and even if you don't, you'll open those enemy units to your firepower elsewhere.
Pulse pistol plink shot won't really do much against any enemy. Remember, you don't fire them on your Fight phase, but on your Shooting phase if you are in melee
Amishprn86 wrote: Im new to tau, but i cant find the difference (if any) or what it is.
When taking a tidewall, what is the tidewall defense platform?
Is it a 2nd wall? is it the place they can stand? it really doesnt say in the rules.
it's the roundy thing without any special thing.
We have:
Shieldline - long piece with blueish wall
Gunrig - round piece with weapon
Droneport - round piece with 4 slots for drones
Thus leaving the defense platform, which can be taken by the Shieldline
So how do Mortal Wounds work with Savior Protocols from Drones. Say an enemy unit cast smite on a crisis suit unit and inflicts 3 Mortal Wounds. Say there are 3 gun drones within 3". Do I allocate all three mortal wounds at the same time to a single gun drone and then reduce the damage to 1 Mortal Wound via Savior Protocols and thus slaying only 1 gun drone?
OR do I instead allocate the 3 mortal wounds 1 at a time, thus slaying all three drones?
wyomingfox wrote: So how do Mortal Wounds work with Savior Protocols from Drones. Say an enemy unit cast smite on a crisis suit unit and inflicts 3 Mortal Wounds. Say there are 3 gun drones within 3". Do I allocate all three mortal wounds at the same time to a single gun drone and then reduce the damage to 1 Mortal Wound via Savior Protocols and thus slaying only 1 gun drone?
OR do I instead allocate the 3 mortal wounds 1 at a time, thus slaying all three drones?
Each Mortal wound is treated as it's own separate hit, so per your scenario all 3 Drones would be removed.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Each Mortal wound is treated as it's own separate hit, so per your scenario all 3 Drones would be removed.
Where is that? I can only find the blurb that tells you that an attack's excess Mortal Wounds spill over.
All damage is done individually. For most "FNP" saves you do a save for each "wound" of damage. Mortal wounds are only different in that they spill over after killing a model.
All damage is done individually. For most "FNP" saves you do a save for each "wound" of damage. Mortal wounds are only different in that they spill over after killing a model.
Yes, but Savior Protocols kicks in right after a successful 'To Wound' roll. You could do 1 wound or 5d20, it doesn't matter here, Savior Protocols takes it all damage from an attack that sucessfully Wounds, and converts it to one Mortal Wound, right? Why would it not do this for an Attack doing 3 Mortal Wounds? I think you could argue that because Mortal Wounds just inflct damage, that Savior Protocals can't trigger for Mortal Wounds because no successful 'To Wound' roll happens, but that's a different beast.
It's a little vague because it was written for normal attacks.
You take 3 'wounds'
Each 'wound' has X Damage, which causes the model to lose X Wounds
Mortal wounds happen one at a time so they can spill over. They're basically a number of auto wounding, saveless 'wounds' with D1.
GW has set it up so there will be a lot of verbiage confusion around having a both a Wound roll and a Wound stat, causing differences between "successfully wounded" and "taking a wound" and "losing a wound"
What would really make things simpler would have been to get rid of "Wound" as a statistic and call it HP or Health or something. Then you would take a Wound, fail a save, and lose Health equal to the damage. It would get rid of a lot of RAW vs RAI vs Whatever debate for special rules.
The rules are VERY clear ever shot, every attack and every wound and even damage is technically rolled 1 by 1.
Going by RAW you announce where all attacks for that unit is going, then you roll each "attack" seperatly.
It even states this again on pg 179 on the side under "Fast Rolling": "the rules for resolving attacks (pg. 181) have been written assuming you will make them one at a time."
You need to intercept each mortal wound separately, not the source of it.
If a psyker does something that inflicts 3 mortal wounds, you need 3 savior protocols. All 3 can come from the same one drone if you pass the FNP every time.
Same with a Stormsurge's Destroyer missile for example. You don't intercept the missile, you need to savior protocol each mortal wound of the D3 mortal wounds.
Haechi wrote: You need to intercept each mortal wound separately, not the source of it.
If a psyker does something that inflicts 3 mortal wounds, you need 3 savior protocols. All 3 can come from the same one drone if you pass the FNP every time.
Same with a Stormsurge's Destroyer missile for example. You don't intercept the missile, you need to savior protocol each mortal wound of the D3 mortal wounds.
Why? The rule you are referencing states that all Mortal Wounds are applied to a model the defender chooses (it specificly states like normal damage) in sequence but then gives an exception that excess damage is not lost, Mortal Wounds only get re-Allocated to the next model after the model before it is killed (after any allowable FnP or other mitigation). Savior Protocols is applied before Allocation in the first place. If you got to use Savior Protocols after allocation and saves, then it would be gross. Taking a Broadside or Riptide's saves after normal damage but before using Protocols would be broken, but doesn't happen that way because we never get to that step. The Drone has to chump it before any damage from the attack happens, Mortal or not. There's never a need to roll Damage for an attack defended with Savior Protocols, it's always one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: After re-reading the Mortal Wounds rule and Savior Protocols yet again, I still think that the 'Enemy attack successfully Wounds it' phrasing is the better way to deny Savior Protocols. Since the Mortal Wounds rule specifically tells you not to roll to Wound, the attacker never makes a successful 'To Wound' roll, they just start allocating and inflicting Damage. Savior Protocols never meets the criteria to trigger.
On a side note, I'm glad that there are very few of these semantic, rules lawyery arguments in 8th compared to 7th, and that things like this have been getting cleared up within a month or two in FAQs.
Haechi wrote: You need to intercept each mortal wound separately, not the source of it.
If a psyker does something that inflicts 3 mortal wounds, you need 3 savior protocols. All 3 can come from the same one drone if you pass the FNP every time.
Same with a Stormsurge's Destroyer missile for example. You don't intercept the missile, you need to savior protocol each mortal wound of the D3 mortal wounds.
Why? The rule you are referencing states that all Mortal Wounds are applied to a model the defender chooses (it specificly states like normal damage) in sequence but then gives an exception that excess damage is not lost, Mortal Wounds only get re-Allocated to the next model after the model before it is killed (after any allowable FnP or other mitigation). Savior Protocols is applied before Allocation in the first place. If you got to use Savior Protocols after allocation and saves, then it would be gross. Taking a Broadside or Riptide's saves after normal damage but before using Protocols would be broken, but doesn't happen that way because we never get to that step. The Drone has to chump it before any damage from the attack happens, Mortal or not. There's never a need to roll Damage for an attack defended with Savior Protocols, it's always one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: After re-reading the Mortal Wounds rule and Savior Protocols yet again, I still think that the 'Enemy attack successfully Wounds it' phrasing is the better way to deny Savior Protocols. Since the Mortal Wounds rule specifically tells you not to roll to Wound, the attacker never makes a successful 'To Wound' roll, they just start allocating and inflicting Damage. Savior Protocols never meets the criteria to trigger.
On a side note, I'm glad that there are very few of these semantic, rules lawyery arguments in 8th compared to 7th, and that things like this have been getting cleared up within a month or two in FAQs.
Other fun nuance, smite isn't defined as an attack, nor is any psychic power to my, albeit limited, knowledge. You successfully manifest/pass the test for a power, and the result happens. But no where in the psychic rules, or description of smite is it ever called an attack. So it's possible strict RAW you cannot savior protocol any psychic power unless they define themselves as an attack.
Personally I would just buy a strike team box and use the carbines and extra bits for the jet packs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: -----OK so I have a game coming up and I wanted to make as shot a deployment list as possible. Any Suggestions?? This is a pre-tournament game to test the list. (Yes they are still accepting FW on this one)
I don't have extra Ghost Keels. I am expecting an order of an O'ralai and Barracuda soon which will replace the commander and riptide. I have a large number of suits I could sub out for the riptide but what to make them is puzzling me.
Commander [7 PL, 172pts]
For the Greater Good, Manta Strike, Master of War
3x Missile pod [72pts], 2x MV4 Shield Drone [16pts], Shield generator [8pts]
Elites [54 PL, 878pts]
XV104 Riptide Battlesuit [17 PL, 303pts]
Drone Support, For the Greater Good, Nova Reactor, Riptide Shield Generator
2x Plasma rifle [22pts], Heavy burst cannon [55pts], Stimulant injector [5pts], Target lock [12pts]
XV9 Hazard Support Team [9 PL, 133pts]
Bonding Knife Ritual, For the Greater Good, Manta Strike
4x MV1 Gun Drone [32pts] XV9 Hazard Battlesuit [5 PL, 101pts]
Advanced targeting system [8pts], 2x Double-barelled burst cannon [32pts]
XV9 Hazard Support Team [9 PL, 133pts]
Bonding Knife Ritual, For the Greater Good, Manta Strike
4x MV1 Gun Drone [32pts] XV9 Hazard Battlesuit [5 PL, 101pts]
Advanced targeting system [8pts], 2x Double-barelled burst cannon [32pts]
XV9 Hazard Support Team [9 PL, 133pts]
Bonding Knife Ritual, For the Greater Good, Manta Strike
4x MV1 Gun Drone [32pts] XV9 Hazard Battlesuit [5 PL, 101pts]
Advanced targeting system [8pts], 2x Double-barelled burst cannon [32pts]
XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuit [10 PL, 176pts]
Drone Support, For the Greater Good, Ghostkeel Electrowarfare Suite, Infiltrator, Saviour Protocols, Stealth Field
2x Flamer [18pts], Cyclic ion raker [39pts], 2x MV5 Stealth Drone [20pts], Stimulant injector [5pts], Target lock [12pts]
Fast Attack [20 PL, 412pts]
XV109 Y'vahra Battlesuit [20 PL, 412pts]
For the Greater Good
Stimulant injector [5pts], Target lock [12pts]
Haechi wrote: Are we allowed to use the Riptide's Nova Charge more than once per turn?
In your Movement phase you can choose to use a Riptide Shas'vre's Nova Reactor. If you do, the Riptide Shas'vre suffers a mortal wound. Choose one of the following effects to last until the beginning of your next turn.
So if you choose an ability and it goes until the beginning of your next turn. So if you fire a nova charged gun and then get charged the over watch is also nova.
If you mean taking multiple wounds for multiple abilities RAR would seem to indicate yes.... however I don't believe that is RAI. There is a way to interpreting this both ways. Considering you only have one nova reactor for me it indicates just a singular use per turn, and to be honest it's probably how it is intended. Now the WAAC version of me says try and spam it until someone fixes the wording.
Yeah, that's the thing... If you can use it twice per turn then you go Shield AND Gun every turn. I need to know if I'm allowed to haha, it's so good it makes the Riptide worth it all of the sudden.
Eh...almost worth it. Riptides suck because they're crazy expensive for the offensive output, not because they aren't durable. Drones can provide all the staying power you'll ever need, but 350pts for a couple lascannons is crap. Taking 2 wounds per turn is going to crank down your BS in a hurry, too. Not convinced.
How do you plan on getting those Breachers into position? Breachers wanna be within 5" to be at maximum effectiveness, and need to be within 10" to be worth taking over Strike Teams.
At only T3 with a 4+ save they're gonna get shredded walking up the board, especially against anyone who knows how powerful they can be up close. You're gonna need some form of delivery system to get them close enough to be effective (read as: Devilfish).
breachers are quitegood at repelling aggressive assault troops so they may just be his way of keeping his priority targets safe and forcing tough priority decisions on the enemy.
One thing I would definitely suggest is actual Kroot. I went to a tournament yesterday and faced an army with 11 Command Suits and the only reason he was able to win was that I kind of forgot to create the halo around the Stormsurge for the initial turn with them. That Kroot Vanguard move pushes the enemy OUT of 18" and by doing that, de-fangs them when they try to drop in and overwhelm your important stuff, while leaving the enemy well within the range of your weapons.
In this case he was using the Cyclic cannons and Fusion suits festooned with Drones. I took out every last Drone he had very quickly and started in on the command suits next but ultimately, I allowed him too close to me in round one and that was the critical error of the game, right at the start when i forgot it. As it was he lost three Command suits the first volley from me, which illustrates the effect two rounds of fire from the stormsurge could have produced. Instead I had zero rounds with him. Pretty big difference.
So the actual Kroot can protect you from Deep Strike threats in a cheap way and provide a lot more time for your more essential units to do their magic.
GI_Redshirt wrote: How do you plan on getting those Breachers into position? Breachers wanna be within 5" to be at maximum effectiveness, and need to be within 10" to be worth taking over Strike Teams.
At only T3 with a 4+ save they're gonna get shredded walking up the board, especially against anyone who knows how powerful they can be up close.
Exactly, that's the whole point. Everytime I field Strike teams, my opponents completely ignore them and focus down my precious Pathfinders or something else. And they ignore them for one simple reason : they do f**k all. They become a tax for specific batallions. So one day I tried Breachers ON FOOT. And two things happen : First of all, they did NOT suck. 20 bolter shots at 15" is already great for a mobile troop and cheap unit that moves up the board. And even better, once they get close, they really bring out the damage. Then the second thing happen: all of the sudden, my opponent could NOT ignore my tax troop units. And the life expectancy of my Pathfinders went through the roof.
Basically, I decided to ignore the overpriced, poorly performing transport, and the long range shooting strike teams because I WANT 30 wounds worth of tax point to get shot at instead of my important non-tax stuff. And it works. Soooo well. And if by any chance they don't die while crossing the map and getting objectives for me, they will actually bring pain to the enemy, instead of long range, inaccurate, without armor penetration sneeze shots.
They're the best tanking units I've ever tried for T'au !
@Hollow : I love Pathfinders. They've been so useful for me. Having 20 is not just because I "need" 20, it's also because they tend to die a lot. And I definitely need some of them. I field 20 so I still have 10 at the start of my first turn when playing second.
10 Pathfinders
1 Barracuda (magnetized)
8 or 10 Marker Drones
Many Gun Drones :-D
3 Railsides
Any advice on list building?
I was thinking about getting 2 devilfish to get away of the gunline tactics. I have no breachers, but enough carbine FWs.
Would appreciate any suggestions on what list you would bring with these models and what you would get next.
10 Pathfinders
1 Barracuda (magnetized)
8 or 10 Marker Drones
Many Gun Drones :-D
3 Railsides
Any advice on list building?
I was thinking about getting 2 devilfish to get away of the gunline tactics. I have no breachers, but enough carbine FWs.
Would appreciate any suggestions on what list you would bring with these models and what you would get next.
Im a pretty big fan of Firewarriors when accompanied by the Fireblade and the Ethereal, thats for sure. I use about 27 Fire Warriors in my list and they do surprising amounts of damage.
The Riptide is probably not on the HIGHLY competitive side now, but it is still good. I think its so expensive that its the easy thing to drop if points get tight.
Stealthsuits are so much better than they used to be. also a big fan.
Jancoran wrote: The Riptide is probably not on the HIGHLY competitive side now, but it is still good. I think its so expensive that its the easy thing to drop if points get tight.
Looking at how they've changed the Leman Russ, I feel you are only set for good things.
If you like the Riptide now, I will put money down (to the value of a Curly Wurly?) that you'll Love the new Riptide.
Jancoran wrote: The Riptide is probably not on the HIGHLY competitive side now, but it is still good. I think its so expensive that its the easy thing to drop if points get tight.
Looking at how they've changed the Leman Russ, I feel you are only set for good things.
If you like the Riptide now, I will put money down (to the value of a Curly Wurly?) that you'll Love the new Riptide.
Fingers crossed.
I hope so. I have two really nicely painted Riptides and I'd love to field them more.
Hey all, been given a Ghostkeel for a birthday present.. looking forward to making and painting it. Is there any way that people would recommend playing it i.e. units that compliment it?
ke3f wrote: Hey all, been given a Ghostkeel for a birthday present.. looking forward to making and painting it. Is there any way that people would recommend playing it i.e. units that compliment it?
It's a nice turn 1 harassment unit. It's a little tanky but it's not going to soak up an entire army's worth of firepower. If you want to you could give it a buddy keel. Or add a unit or two of stealth suits. Steal suits are very good. Use these front line units to put early pressure on your opponent and to start clearing chaff and transports, then hit them with the big support guns from other units in mid field and your deployment zone.
ke3f wrote: Hey all, been given a Ghostkeel for a birthday present.. looking forward to making and painting it. Is there any way that people would recommend playing it i.e. units that compliment it?
These days I'm thinking the Fusion Collider/Twin Fusion is probably the best loadout for a Ghostkeel. If it can get close it will annihilate any enemy vehicle it can shoot, especially with markerlight support. With markerlights you don't even need wargear to be able to move and shoot at full BS.
Except that there's not a whole lot of reason to take what amounts to 4 fusions on a Ghostkeel when you could do the same on a Commander for fewer points and hit on 2s instead of 4s and not require marker lights. Yeah, the Keel is more durable, but it's also a hell of a lot less effective offensively.
A quad-fusion commander with a couple of gun drones comes in at 176 points. Where-as the Ghost comes in at 188 with it's shield drones. (I haven't included any other gear) You say the Ghost is more durable in such a throw away fashion but we're talking +1 T +4 Wounds with the -1/2 to hit which makes it significantly more durable. It also has a place within a well rounded force allowing for command points to be banked and it's a kick ass model. So many reasons to get a Ghost.
Ghostkeel is a nice model, but in terms of real money, the Commander is also significantly cheaper. Cheaper on points, cheaper on cash, more effective in-game...I'm going Commander.
I don't think I'd recommend to a new collector to go all in on Commanders. GW seems to pretty regularly adjust points in the new codexes to 'fix' obvious must-take stuff. (Conscripts come to mind). I'm pretty sure that GW doesn't want Commanders to be the go-to suit unit, and I wouldn't expect that to necessarily be the case when we eventually get a codex.
Obviously I don't actually know anything, but in general I don't recommend going all-out to spam units from an index. If you already own the figs? Sure, why not. If you have a lot of money to spend and don't really care about the cost? Again, sure. Otherwise...
Restraint is definitely advisable with the Commander situation. I currently have three of them, and that's more than enough. Others have as many as nine, which is insane. I've heard rumors that Commanders will be losing the 4th option for weapons, but that's all speculation at this point.
I will say that if GW want more of a variety in the units that Tau players use, then they need to adjust the points values on our horribly overpriced suits like the Riptide (which I know is coming), the SS, and Broadsides. Believe it or not, many players would rather have a variety in their competitive units, but GW has to give us the tools first.
I have both the fusion commander and ghostkeel for the simple reason that most tournaments in France have a one of each entry max requirement. Two at best.
Hollow wrote: A quad-fusion commander with a couple of gun drones comes in at 176 points. Where-as the Ghost comes in at 188 with it's shield drones. (I haven't included any other gear) You say the Ghost is more durable in such a throw away fashion but we're talking +1 T +4 Wounds with the -1/2 to hit which makes it significantly more durable. It also has a place within a well rounded force allowing for command points to be banked and it's a kick ass model. So many reasons to get a Ghost.
I agree that the Ghostkeel is quite a lot more durable, no doubt. If you can somehow keep its stealth drones alive, it'll live for quite awhile. Unfortunately, it needs 2 rounds of shooting to do what a Commander can do in one, and the Commander can drop in on it's target without issue. I think Ghostkeels are decent - even good - units, but they don't measure up to Commanders. That said, I'm with everyone preaching caution on Commander overload. I anticipate they'll get adjusted and/or limited substantially while the rest of our units get buffed. I'm looking forward to seeing what our codex does to fix our tattered index.
Three weapons per commander would at least make it a CHOICE between them and other options, you know what I mean? I played against 11, as I mentioned and while there was a definite path to victory against them for me, it was really difficult to deal with and I forgot a critical thing to stop them from getting their rampage off. What can ya do? But they are super good and three slots instead of 4 would make quite a difference.
See, this is where a big problem with the community comes into play, because people should be actively refusing games with people like this. It's the same situation with hundreds of Conscripts, ten Demon Princes, etc. Playing games outside of a tournament with these "builds" just proliferates that kind of cheese.
I need help with the wording for Shadowsun's drone.
"She is accompanied by up to 3 Command Drones: 1 MV62 Command-Link Drone and up to 2 MV52 Shield Drones."
What is mandatory? Can she have zero drones? Can she have only on shield drone? Can she have 2 shield drones but no Command Link drone?
Haechi wrote: I need help with the wording for Shadowsun's drone.
"She is accompanied by up to 3 Command Drones: 1 MV62 Command-Link Drone and up to 2 MV52 Shield Drones."
What is mandatory? Can she have zero drones? Can she have only on shield drone? Can she have 2 shield drones but no Command Link drone?
Sounds like having any drones at all is optional, but when she does take them, one must be the Command Link Drone and any others must be Shield Drones.
Haechi wrote: I need help with the wording for Shadowsun's drone.
"She is accompanied by up to 3 Command Drones: 1 MV62 Command-Link Drone and up to 2 MV52 Shield Drones."
What is mandatory? Can she have zero drones? Can she have only on shield drone? Can she have 2 shield drones but no Command Link drone?
Sounds like having any drones at all is optional, but when she does take them, one must be the Command Link Drone and any others must be Shield Drones.
According to every builder I've used the command-link drone is mandatory and the shield drones are optional.
Haechi wrote: I need help with the wording for Shadowsun's drone.
"She is accompanied by up to 3 Command Drones: 1 MV62 Command-Link Drone and up to 2 MV52 Shield Drones."
What is mandatory? Can she have zero drones? Can she have only on shield drone? Can she have 2 shield drones but no Command Link drone?
Sounds like having any drones at all is optional, but when she does take them, one must be the Command Link Drone and any others must be Shield Drones.
According to every builder I've used the command-link drone is mandatory and the shield drones are optional.
Could be. The phrasing "She is accompanied by up to 3..." seems to suggest you could take zero drones, but that's seems to be open to interpretation.
See, this is where a big problem with the community comes into play, because people should be actively refusing games with people like this. It's the same situation with hundreds of Conscripts, ten Demon Princes, etc. Playing games outside of a tournament with these "builds" just proliferates that kind of cheese.
I'd be surprised if anyone who wasn't planning on hitting tournaments would actually have that many Commanders. Commanders haven't historically been particularly useful outside of force multiplication, so certainly nobody actually came into 8th edition with 5+ unless they just had a gigantic Tau collection.
In the past, I've played in a pretty competitive group that ran dead hard lists. I've definitely had to face a fair amount of netlists and their variants, so facing a tournament-winning list is not an issue for me. I just feel like the spam lists 8th has encouraged so far aren't fun. Even my tournament-caliber list from 7th had a fair amount of variety in it. Now, you just spam Commanders and gun drones, Stormravens, Conscripts, brinstone horrors, etc. and get far up the rankings. No bueno. Again, I hope codexes do the meta some good and mix things up a bit. Given the faction bonuses and strategens they've been coming out with, I'm optimistic.
Haechi wrote: I need help with the wording for Shadowsun's drone.
"She is accompanied by up to 3 Command Drones: 1 MV62 Command-Link Drone and up to 2 MV52 Shield Drones."
What is mandatory? Can she have zero drones? Can she have only on shield drone? Can she have 2 shield drones but no Command Link drone?
Sounds like having any drones at all is optional, but when she does take them, one must be the Command Link Drone and any others must be Shield Drones.
According to every builder I've used the command-link drone is mandatory and the shield drones are optional.
No builder is official so far. Everybody says on AdvancedTauTactica that none are mandatory.
See, this is where a big problem with the community comes into play, because people should be actively refusing games with people like this. It's the same situation with hundreds of Conscripts, ten Demon Princes, etc. Playing games outside of a tournament with these "builds" just proliferates that kind of cheese.
There is also the possibility that it isn't true (Which I suspect is the case) How many points was this game? What were they kitted out with? How was the force organised? 11 commanders is over 2k points alone.
See, this is where a big problem with the community comes into play, because people should be actively refusing games with people like this. It's the same situation with hundreds of Conscripts, ten Demon Princes, etc. Playing games outside of a tournament with these "builds" just proliferates that kind of cheese.
It was a tournament. You dont get to choose your opponents. Lol. You just deal with the reality of it. I forgot to do one little thing or he would have been in deep trouble. So it isn't as if he had it in the bag, and he actually lost the first round. 11 Commanders will table you though if you aren't prepared to deal with it. My Vanguard Kroot would have done wonders to mitigate what he did to me, and I plum forgot to do it. It was just a mistake on my part bu in our next game, I think it will be a different story.
On the topic of Commanders, I'm never ever going to spam them even if it's competitive to do so. I'm just hoping Tau get more competitive builds from other units. I do intend to pick up a Coldstar at some point just because I absolutely LOVE that model! I'm probably going to wait for the Tau codex to drop before I purchase anything new for my Tau, though. If I do run them before then, I'll make do with the collection I currently have (which is reasonably extensive).
Hi, Space Marine player here. Just played in a tournament where my second opponent was a 130-model Drone Spam list putting out so many dice he had a huge tray just so he could roll them all without half of them spilling off the table, and he almost couldn't hold them all even in two hands. My third opponent had 9 Commanders, 3 with each type of loadout except one Coldstar (to capture objectives), all hiding behind drones and killing most of my stuff in one shot. Luckily both guys were really nice. I really hope you guys get a good codex that fixes this stuff because right now i sort of feel like never playing Tau again...
GreaterGouda wrote: Can a model with early warning override shoot multiple times if multiple different units deep strike within 12 inches?
I suppose, no nomenclature saying 1ce per turn, or 1ce per phase, just When a unit "arrives" within 12 inches of you by using an ability, you make immediately make a shooting attack. its not even made at the end of the phase, its immediate.
GreaterGouda wrote: Can a model with early warning override shoot multiple times if multiple different units deep strike within 12 inches?
I suppose, no nomenclature saying 1ce per turn, or 1ce per phase, just When a unit "arrives" within 12 inches of you by using an ability, you make immediately make a shooting attack. its not even made at the end of the phase, its immediate.
That seems correct. Amazing but correct. The limitation on range is obviously the limiting factor and why I havent used it as much but that will changhe if i keep seeing 11 Crisis Commanders drop from the skies. Lol.
In your various experiences, can a riptide still function as a distraction carnifex? or do you find that everyone knows how poorly it does for the points that they ignore it?
pumaman1 wrote: In your various experiences, can a riptide still function as a distraction carnifex? or do you find that everyone knows how poorly it does for the points that they ignore it?
So far it still works for me. Which I find unbelievable. I had a huge argument against the Riptide on a french forum exactly because of that. It's costly, it does barely any damage, and has amazing tanking capabilities. Why would any shoot at it? Then I fielded one in a recent tournament where I sort of had to because of extreme restrictions in army building, and what do you know... Everybody kept shooting at it. Even under 3++. Like... Why?
pumaman1 wrote: In your various experiences, can a riptide still function as a distraction carnifex? or do you find that everyone knows how poorly it does for the points that they ignore it?
So far it still works for me. Which I find unbelievable. I had a huge argument against the Riptide on a french forum exactly because of that. It's costly, it does barely any damage, and has amazing tanking capabilities. Why would any shoot at it? Then I fielded one in a recent tournament where I sort of had to because of extreme restrictions in army building, and what do you know... Everybody kept shooting at it. Even under 3++. Like... Why?
Well to be fair, people have been conditioned due to Riptide Wings to slay them on sight.
I’ve played a Riptide three times against one opponent. The first game he tried to kill it, and failed to scratch the paint because of Saviour Protocols. The second and third game he ignored it entirely and faired better for it.
It’s only a matter of time before everyone starts doing the same.
I am guessing there's no hope currently for fluffy Tau? It's all commander spam or drone spam? No place for actual fire warriors, battlesuits and tanks like the olden days?
Wayniac wrote: I am guessing there's no hope currently for fluffy Tau? It's all commander spam or drone spam? No place for actual fire warriors, battlesuits and tanks like the olden days?
Not for tournaments. Casual games yes. There is a build I’m going for that is more fluffy but it involves buying stuff I haven’t saved for yet. Even then I still don’t intend on buying much else until the new codex drops.
Wayniac wrote: I am guessing there's no hope currently for fluffy Tau? It's all commander spam or drone spam? No place for actual fire warriors, battlesuits and tanks like the olden days?
Well, if the tournament restrictions are appropriate, then yes, actually, there is hope for fluffy T'au lists.
For example, last weekend was Tacticon in Denver, and they ran a 2000-point tournament that limited all lists to a single Battle Forged Battalion.
This effectively limited most kinds of T'au spam. With a maximum of three Commanders available and only three Fast Attacks lots, if you want to play in that kind of tournament, you need to look to less-efficient options to fill out anti-tank slots. This suddenly made things like Crisis Suits and Ghostkeels worth your attention. Fire Warriors are the cheapest source for filling out Troop slots since you can take them in groups of five.
I'm personally drifting towards tournament restrictions that look like this:
Wayniac wrote: I am guessing there's no hope currently for fluffy Tau? It's all commander spam or drone spam? No place for actual fire warriors, battlesuits and tanks like the olden days?
I dunno about that. Fire Warriors and battlesuits are still being seen and used. Tanks not at all. And that really is a big fat shame in my eyes. they had JUST created that formation in 7E that made tanks good again and they didnt port that to 8th (yet).
I am hoping they enhance the tanks. they really deserve to be on the field aesthetically.
The railgun on the hammerhead is still not sufficiently destructive. It should have been a D weapon in 7th, and it should cause catastrophic damage to anything it hits. Like D6+6 wounds or something like that.
Wayniac wrote: I am guessing there's no hope currently for fluffy Tau? It's all commander spam or drone spam? No place for actual fire warriors, battlesuits and tanks like the olden days?
Well, if the tournament restrictions are appropriate, then yes, actually, there is hope for fluffy T'au lists.
For example, last weekend was Tacticon in Denver, and they ran a 2000-point tournament that limited all lists to a single Battle Forged Battalion.
This effectively limited most kinds of T'au spam. With a maximum of three Commanders available and only three Fast Attacks lots, if you want to play in that kind of tournament, you need to look to less-efficient options to fill out anti-tank slots. This suddenly made things like Crisis Suits and Ghostkeels worth your attention. Fire Warriors are the cheapest source for filling out Troop slots since you can take them in groups of five.
I'm personally drifting towards tournament restrictions that look like this:
Battle Forged
1 Battalion
0-1 Super Heavy Auxillary
0-1 Fortification Network
No model with a Power Level above 30
One Battalion? Certainly limits Tau, but some other armies not as much. I wouldn't field a Tau list for a tournament like that.
In the GT I run, I have allowed up to three Detachments, but if you want a third Detachment it had to be a CAD. In 8th it would have to change and probably to a Brigade.
I think the game is funnest when you actually get to SEE the codex on display. I want to see how good a GENERAL you are, not how good a MATHEMATICIAN You are. anyone can get online and get the "killer list of doom" out but... to actually coordinate and time and make use of terrain and all the other aspects, it takes skill.
I wanna' know who the best at the GAME is, not the best at math.
Jancoran wrote: In the GT I run, I have allowed up to three Detachments, but if you want a third Detachment it had to be a CAD. In 8th it would have to change and probably to a Brigade.
I think the game is funnest when you actually get to SEE the codex on display. I want to see how good a GENERAL you are, not how good a MATHEMATICIAN You are. anyone can get online and get the "killer list of doom" out but... to actually coordinate and time and make use of terrain and all the other aspects, it takes skill.
I wanna' know who the best at the GAME is, not the best at math.
Just my two cents.
The best players have to use both. So you are by default also seeing the best mathematicans.
Jancoran wrote: In the GT I run, I have allowed up to three Detachments, but if you want a third Detachment it had to be a CAD. In 8th it would have to change and probably to a Brigade.
I think the game is funnest when you actually get to SEE the codex on display. I want to see how good a GENERAL you are, not how good a MATHEMATICIAN You are. anyone can get online and get the "killer list of doom" out but... to actually coordinate and time and make use of terrain and all the other aspects, it takes skill.
I wanna' know who the best at the GAME is, not the best at math.
Just my two cents.
The best players have to use both. So you are by default also seeing the best mathematicans.
The best players CAN use both. But they aren't REQUIRED to unless you force them to. Bad players get exposed when they can't just do the 11 Command suit thing (not that the guy using the 11 suits is bad, just that he cannot demonstrate he is good while doing it).
I mean what skill does it require to deep strike and roll dice...and win for all intents and purposes, round 1? None. Literally none. That's unfortunate because that person, while he gets the wins and the ITC points, never gets what he probably wishes he had: genuine respect for his game skill. All the respect goes to the "build" which anyone could emulate. The build is no credit to the general. That's just a function of math and lots of people have figured out that its good, so it doesnt make you noteworthy for taking it, even though you may be the finest general to ever live.
I have literally no idea how many gamers REALLY care beyond the win. It may be that only a miniscule fraction do. Its an impossible thing to gauge, am I right? That said, one of the things I always feel great about is the respect I get from my opponents, especially the regular ones. It isn't my army they have the healthy respect for.
Good generals welcome the challenge of a tournament that forces you to prove it, I think.
"I mean what skill does it require to deep strike and roll dice...and win for all intents and purposes, round 1? None. Literally none."
There is a skill in recognizing GW's mathematical goof ups. Which is a different skill than pushing the plastic around, admittedly. I'd still say a huge component of the game is won and lost in the list building phase. Then the rest is determined by skill.
I don't know how many gamers care beyond the win, either. Given the number of converts to Eldar in 7th, I''m putting the over at 33% tops.
Martel732 wrote: "I mean what skill does it require to deep strike and roll dice...and win for all intents and purposes, round 1? None. Literally none."
There is a skill in recognizing GW's mathematical goof ups. Which is a different skill than pushing the plastic around, admittedly. I'd still say a huge component of the game is won and lost in the list building phase. Then the rest is determined by skill.
I don't know how many gamers care beyond the win, either. Given the number of converts to Eldar in 7th, I''m putting the over at 33% tops.
Yeah I just don't give much credit to a guy for spamming the "best thing in the codex". That's like Stelek if you remember HIM. His only advice, EVER was to spam like that and he hardly ever won anything of note. He had one good run one year and he rode that like a Bantha on his forum but i mean that kind of thinking lacks any imagination and masks what might otherwise prove to be a brilliant General.
Anywho, regardless of that, all i was getting at is why i like the idea of some requirements at tournaments. Tournaments are supposed to be fun as well as challenging and they will be challenging no matter what the requirements might be. the difference is in how much fun people have doing it.
as for your over-under thought of 33% I don't disagree.
Oh, yeah Stelek. Spamming is great way to get to the top tables, but once there, you'll either be facing other spammers or people who know how to deal with it.
Tournament requirements are tricky, depending upon the nature of the cheese people are bringing. Both scatbikes and conscripts are troops, which makes it frightfullly difficult to engineer against them.
Martel732 wrote: Oh, yeah Stelek. Spamming is great way to get to the top tables, but once there, you'll either be facing other spammers or people who know how to deal with it.
Tournament requirements are tricky, depending upon the nature of the cheese people are bringing. Both scatbikes and conscripts are troops, which makes it frightfullly difficult to engineer against them.
That's the fun! Take Kroot Hounds and FireWarriors to handle the hordes and Supremeacy Railguns for the Super Heavies! =) Then you break the Scatterbikes with lots of Rail Rifle shots.
Tournament requirements really hammer armies with no solutions in their troops, though. Like marines. Marine troops are god-awful. I'd kill for firewarriors. This makes Tau a lot more viable in a comp format.
Martel732 wrote: Tournament requirements really hammer armies with no solutions in their troops, though. Like marines. Marine troops are god-awful. I'd kill for firewarriors. This makes Tau a lot more viable in a comp format.
Fire Warriors are very good and given that so many things would be wounding on 5's anyways, the Fire Warriors are in the sweet spot. I like them a lot in the 8th Edition.
I play Chaos Space Marines and I have 6 units of Chaos Marines, each with a Lascannon. I find them to be pretty sturdy platforms. I also find people a lot less willing to shoot at them because there is a fair number of targets otherwise that are doing good things. So the production I get from my Chaao Space Marine units is pretty darn healthy. I think it's a priority thing. At the start of every game the enemy is at full strength. So they are going to aim their big guns at big things because they know you will be knocking those big guns out quite soon if given half a chance. But with Chaos Space Marines you gotta kill at least four before you get to something that matters and in cover, they are sporting 2+ saves which forces the enemies big guns to be used against a target they'd sooner not. So the Chaos Marines tend to stay safe and scoring throughout my games quite often while the enemy tries to kill the 2 Havocs, the Defiler, the 15 terminators...
I think fire Warriors on the other hand are BOTH not as tough AND not as well armored which collectively makes them far easier to sweep away and so enemies have more more motivation to try. Same goes for Cultists. If I have a unit thats mediocre but with good volume its an easy thing to drop cultists as an afetrthought whereas Chaos Marines require much more than an afterthought of your army to try and kill.
So I think the usefulness of the Marines is determined largely by whats around them more than they themselves.
I'd kill the havocs, defiler, and 15 terminators first and then kill the helpless CSM at my leisure. If I had a good list, at any rate. Marines just aren't scary. 30 marines with 6 lascannons is expensive for their throw weight. They're very ignorable until the real threats are dealt with.
Facing 100 firewarriors, all targets are the same, and so I can't even make decisions lol. I don't think firewarriors are that much easier to sweep away in practice. The fact that you probably have over twice as many (you have to buy marines upgrades) more than makes up for their T and armor. 8th ed is about stressing the number of dice your opponent can throw. Marines are miserable at throwing large numbers of dice.
So, yeah, I'd consider your 5 man squads godawful in comparison to fire warriors.
Martel732 wrote: The railgun on the hammerhead is still not sufficiently destructive. It should have been a D weapon in 7th, and it should cause catastrophic damage to anything it hits. Like D6+6 wounds or something like that.
Having the railing become a D weapon would be broken. A straight additional +6 would be insane for the gun. But the current on a role of a 6 get +X need to change. The mechanic is good but the result should be on a 4+. If we wanted to hold true to some old school railgun action a flat ability to ignore cover on a single shot would be nice. Because you know giant mass accelator.
Why is D6+6 not reasonable for a weapon literally as big as some of its targets? It should just be costed to match. D would not have been broken in an edition where Eldar kept D weapons in their vehicle glove boxes.
Martel732 wrote: Why is D6+6 not reasonable for a weapon literally as big as some of its targets? It should just be costed to match. D would not have been broken in an edition where Eldar kept D weapons in their vehicle glove boxes.
Exalted
D6+6 normal wounds or D6 + 6 mortal wounds? on the 6+ wound getting d3 bonus mortal wounds is both good, and not that meaningful. Bonus mortal wound is nice, but against anything important 3 wounds isn't all that terrible from 1 heavy support. getting 6 mortal wounds is probably OP, but when you only get it on a successful wound roll of 6+ on a 1 shot gun.. then it isn't that outrageous, but it is.. can armor/invul save all 6 damage from the wound but still take 6 mortal wounds and insta-kill a commander/captain. but needing 2 railgun to hit rolls of 6 and then further to damage via mortal wounds of 5+ seems to murder it.
Martel732 wrote: I'd kill the havocs, defiler, and 15 terminators first and then kill the helpless CSM at my leisure. If I had a good list, at any rate. Marines just aren't scary. 30 marines with 6 lascannons is expensive for their throw weight. They're very ignorable until the real threats are dealt with.
Facing 100 firewarriors, all targets are the same, and so I can't even make decisions lol. I don't think firewarriors are that much easier to sweep away in practice. The fact that you probably have over twice as many (you have to buy marines upgrades) more than makes up for their T and armor. 8th ed is about stressing the number of dice your opponent can throw. Marines are miserable at throwing large numbers of dice.
So, yeah, I'd consider your 5 man squads godawful in comparison to fire warriors.
And yet, my Chaos army has lost all of two games (Magnus list got me, this week in fact). I feel like you're underestimating it a great deal.
as for Fire Warriors: they are great, as I said. I have 32 fire warriors in my list now, just two more than i have Chaos Marines. I assure you, they go away noticably faster than Chaos Marines.
I got to play 7 very interesting and high level games in Paris during tournaments recently, and here is bit of random feedback. (Also when I say high level play I mean the entire French ETC team was there, I played against the French #1, etc...)
I'll skip the obvious things like Commanders and such.
-The Riptide is really unusable. I've been thinking it and saying it for a while, got convinced to still field one, and it screwed me hard on those 7 games. (out of which I will come out with 3 victories and 4 defeats) It just doesn't do any damage, and that was 324 points of no damage.
-Kroot Hounds are formidable in every role they play.
-Breachers are fantastic units, much superior to Strike Teams imho.
-Ghostkeel Fusion is a beast
-Vespids are beasts but be careful how to use them, they tend to not survive long.
-Broadsides HRR are okay, but so unreliable it's very frustrating.
-Stealths are dope.
-Shield Drones are straight out busted, unless you play with conventions that count kill points in the final result. Those tournaments did, and losing 10 of those from Shield Drones going protocol hurt. I lost a game just from that, even though I was winning on Eternal War and Maelstrom (combined scenarios).
Overall I think T'au is solid, but it's impossible to have a balanced list and hard to be well above 50% winrate. I'm not saying that just out of those 7 games, but out of the around 20-30 I've played in tournaments since 8th is out.
With the list I was using, I went 20-0 against all my Space Marines opponents but one. And lost dramatically against hordes army. In the near future I'm gonna switch my list towards a anti horde build and see how that goes.
That's unsurprising news, possibly aside from Breachers, but it's definitely good to have some confirmation against high-level competition. What list did you use?
MilkmanAl wrote: That's unsurprising news, possibly aside from Breachers, but it's definitely good to have some confirmation against high-level competition. What list did you use?
This with a mandatory Battalion detachment and no more than one of each entry beside troops :
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment –
QG –
QG 1 : Commander Shadowsun (167) – 2 Fusion Blasters (0), 2 MV52 Shield Drones (2x11), [187] – Seigneur de Guerre.
QG 2 : Ethereal (45) with Honour Blade (0), 2 Shield Drones (2x8) [61]
QG 3 : Commander (76) avec 4 Fusion Blasters (4x21), 2 Shield Drones (2x8) [176]
ELITE –
Elite 1 : XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuit (82) – Fusion Collider (44), 2 Fusion Blasters (2x21), Target Lock (12), Multi-Tracker (10), 2 MV5 Stealth Drones (2x10) [210]
Elite 2 : XV25 Stealth Battlesuits : 5 Stealth Shas’ui et 1 Stealth Shas’vre (6x20), avec 4 Burst Cannon (4x10), 2 Fusion Blasters (2x21), 6 Multi-Trackers (6x2), 2 Shield Drones (2x8) [230]
Elite 3 : XV104 Riptide Battlesuit (209) – Heavy Burst Cannon (55), 2 Fusion Blasters (2x21), Target Lock (12), Stimulant Injectors (5) [323]
TROUPES –
Troupe 1 : Strike Team : 7x Fire Warriors et 1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (8x8) avec 8 Pulse Rifles (0), 8 Photon Grenades (0), 1 Pulse Pistol (0), 1 Markerlight (3), 2 Shield Drones (2x8) [83]
Troupe 2 : Strike Team : 7x Fire Warriors et 1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (8x8) avec 8 Pulse Rifles (0), 8 Photon Grenades (0), 1 Pulse Pistol (0), 1 Markerlight (3), 2 Shield Drones (2x8) [83]
Troupe 3 : Breacher Team : 5x Fire Warriors et 1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (6x8) avec 6 Pulse Blaster (0), 6 Photon Grenades (0), 1 Pulse Pistol (0) [48]
FA –
Attaque Rapide 1 : Pathfinder Team : 9x Pathfinders et 1 Pathfinder Shas’ui (10x5) avec 10 Markerlights (10x3), 10 Pulse Carbines (0), 10 Photon Grenades (0), 1 Pulse Pistol (0) [80]
Attaque Rapide 2 : Kroot Hounds : 8x Hounds (8x4) [32]
Attaque Rapide 3 : Vespid Stingwings : 8x Vespid Stingwings et 1 Strain Leader (9x15) avec 9 Neutron Blasters (0) [135]
HEAVY SUPPORT –
HEAVY SUPPORT 1 : XV88 Broadside Battlesuit : 2 Broadsides (2x80), avec 2 Heavy Rail Rifles (2x63), 4 Plasma Rifles (4x11), 2 Velocity Trackers (2x2), 2 Shield Drones (2x8) [350]
They have absolutely no reason not to advance in most rounds making them as fast as a Wave Serpent on the average.
They do 5.33 wounds in a single round for 48 points that are -1 AP.
The unit is 12 strong, so it is large enough to enciircle an overly aggressive Flyer, and kill everyone inside if your other units can shoot it down.
There isn't a meaner little road block to hold enemies in place with the Insane Bravery Strategem and there's enough bodies to survive almost any counter for a round.
The Kroot Hounds can form the absolutely critical halo around your firebase to ensure deep Strikers are left out in the open and not within "juice" range of things like Fusion Blasters if they want to get close.
The Kroot Hounds are excellent for Line Breaking units if you keep them out of the fight for a bit. their speed manes you can wait until the bottom of the third turn to send them streaking to the other side and in the meantime they can just lurk if allowed.
They often panic an enemy into shooting them rather than keping their eye on the ball downfield. As long as you dont make them the ONLY target, this is useful in ablating enemy fire.
Have I missed any of the excellent things you can say about them?
MilkmanAl wrote: That's unsurprising news, possibly aside from Breachers, but it's definitely good to have some confirmation against high-level competition. What list did you use?
This with a mandatory Battalion detachment and no more than one of each entry beside troops :
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment –
QG –
QG 1 : Commander Shadowsun (167) – 2 Fusion Blasters (0), 2 MV52 Shield Drones (2x11), [187] – Seigneur de Guerre.
QG 2 : Ethereal (45) with Honour Blade (0), 2 Shield Drones (2x8) [61]
QG 3 : Commander (76) avec 4 Fusion Blasters (4x21), 2 Shield Drones (2x8) [176]
ELITE –
Elite 1 : XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuit (82) – Fusion Collider (44), 2 Fusion Blasters (2x21), Target Lock (12), Multi-Tracker (10), 2 MV5 Stealth Drones (2x10) [210]
Elite 2 : XV25 Stealth Battlesuits : 5 Stealth Shas’ui et 1 Stealth Shas’vre (6x20), avec 4 Burst Cannon (4x10), 2 Fusion Blasters (2x21), 6 Multi-Trackers (6x2), 2 Shield Drones (2x8) [230]
Elite 3 : XV104 Riptide Battlesuit (209) – Heavy Burst Cannon (55), 2 Fusion Blasters (2x21), Target Lock (12), Stimulant Injectors (5) [323]
TROUPES –
Troupe 1 : Strike Team : 7x Fire Warriors et 1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (8x8) avec 8 Pulse Rifles (0), 8 Photon Grenades (0), 1 Pulse Pistol (0), 1 Markerlight (3), 2 Shield Drones (2x8) [83]
Troupe 2 : Strike Team : 7x Fire Warriors et 1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (8x8) avec 8 Pulse Rifles (0), 8 Photon Grenades (0), 1 Pulse Pistol (0), 1 Markerlight (3), 2 Shield Drones (2x8) [83]
Troupe 3 : Breacher Team : 5x Fire Warriors et 1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (6x8) avec 6 Pulse Blaster (0), 6 Photon Grenades (0), 1 Pulse Pistol (0) [48]
FA –
Attaque Rapide 1 : Pathfinder Team : 9x Pathfinders et 1 Pathfinder Shas’ui (10x5) avec 10 Markerlights (10x3), 10 Pulse Carbines (0), 10 Photon Grenades (0), 1 Pulse Pistol (0) [80]
Attaque Rapide 2 : Kroot Hounds : 8x Hounds (8x4) [32]
Attaque Rapide 3 : Vespid Stingwings : 8x Vespid Stingwings et 1 Strain Leader (9x15) avec 9 Neutron Blasters (0) [135]
HEAVY SUPPORT –
HEAVY SUPPORT 1 : XV88 Broadside Battlesuit : 2 Broadsides (2x80), avec 2 Heavy Rail Rifles (2x63), 4 Plasma Rifles (4x11), 2 Velocity Trackers (2x2), 2 Shield Drones (2x8) [350]
TOTAL - 2000
One of each non-troop grossly favors armies with a codex. It also flat out favors certain armies. Spamming gun drones is pretty important for Tau right now. Doing so, with Commanders, can compete with pretty much anyone.
The unit is 12 strong, so it is large enough to enciircle an overly aggressive Flyer, and kill everyone inside if your other units can shoot it down.
Actually you can't make a proper coffin with 25mm based miniatures. If your encirclement is one line wide, your opponent can disembark either in front or behind your unit.
They have absolutely no reason not to advance in most rounds making them as fast as a Wave Serpent on the average.
They do 5.33 wounds in a single round for 48 points that are -1 AP.
The unit is 12 strong, so it is large enough to enciircle an overly aggressive Flyer, and kill everyone inside if your other units can shoot it down.
There isn't a meaner little road block to hold enemies in place with the Insane Bravery Strategem and there's enough bodies to survive almost any counter for a round.
The Kroot Hounds can form the absolutely critical halo around your firebase to ensure deep Strikers are left out in the open and not within "juice" range of things like Fusion Blasters if they want to get close.
The Kroot Hounds are excellent for Line Breaking units if you keep them out of the fight for a bit. their speed manes you can wait until the bottom of the third turn to send them streaking to the other side and in the meantime they can just lurk if allowed.
They often panic an enemy into shooting them rather than keping their eye on the ball downfield. As long as you dont make them the ONLY target, this is useful in ablating enemy fire.
Have I missed any of the excellent things you can say about them?
The models look cool!
Only problem is they are friggin' expensive in money terms. Otherwise I'd buy a ton of them right now. I know I bring this up a lot, but it still stings.
The unit is 12 strong, so it is large enough to enciircle an overly aggressive Flyer, and kill everyone inside if your other units can shoot it down.
Actually you can't make a proper coffin with 25mm based miniatures. If your encirclement is one line wide, your opponent can disembark either in front or behind your unit.
Nah. You just put the hounds 1.1 inch away from the plane. When they try to disembark, that puts 3 inches within one inch of you. They die because they cannot BE within 1 inch of you. Yay.
Only problem is they are friggin' expensive in money terms. Otherwise I'd buy a ton of them right now. I know I bring this up a lot, but it still stings.
I own so many of them. so many. I think I can aaaaaaaalmost field 4 full units or its darn close to that. A guy had bought a bunch a long time ago and was getting out of Tau, having never really used the hounds like I do. So he gave them to me for a few Eldar models to kick start his changeover and I profit'd immensely. =)
Dont take Target lock with your Stealth suits, take ATS.
Dont put Burst Cannons on your Commanders, they are better of with Missile Pods, CIBs or Fusions.
Take the Drones off the Fire Warriors and make larger drone units. They can be sniped for easy killpoints otherwise.
I'm planning on attending a tournament in February that requires participants to use a patrol detachment only at 1k no allies and no FW. My primary armies are IG, Tau and Necrons and since IG has made a bit of a come back I decided to dust off my tanks and start playing them since I didn't touch IG at all during 7E.
I would really like to try fielding my Tau again though my biggest problem is that the new net lists out there require me to field like 4 commanders or a million gun drones. Been down that road before when I tried maxing out my Riptide wing and I don't think my wallet can handle that again :(
That's plenty for a solid 1k list. I'd fill it with the 2 commanders, Fireblade/Ethereal firebase (FW and railgun pathfinders), Kroot and Kroot Hounds, Stealths with DC and drones.
They haven't posted anything mission related yet. I also know they won't be using the ITC faq so I can safely assume no ITC missions. Probably either book or in-house missions.
How much kill points matter is a big deal. I think they are stupid, without balances. But plenty of places still use them, and they obviously affect your list.
I'm new to Tau and boy did they nerf that Hammerhead.
It does an average of 1.5 wounds per turn to a Land raider, that's like more than 110 points per damage done.
It's not much better against a rhino.
We need the codex asap to fix the obvious unbalanced entries.
Xyphal wrote: I'm new to Tau and boy did they nerf that Hammerhead.
It does an average of 1.5 wounds per turn to a Land raider, that's like more than 110 points per damage done.
It's not much better against a rhino.
We need the codex asap to fix the obvious unbalanced entries.
Possibly March a new codex, so you don't need to suffer needlessly very much longer.. maybe
Hi guys, I'm sure you get questions like this a lot, but if you can help me, a quick search did not yeald exactly what I'm looking for.
A friend of mine got really interested in TAU. Now I'm looking to help him build a 750-1000pts starter list. I'm thinking the less models he has to paint as a get-go, the better, so I was considering getting him a few battlesuits and drones.
What would you recommend to a total noob to muster about 750-1000pts of Tau models?
MilkmanAl wrote: You can do that, but it'd be a lost more effective to just have more drones instead of paying for another Crisis Suit body.
not with an extra man, but the third man going bare bones and the other 2 with all the guns with drones as normal. dont see why this isnt everywhere.
Because spending those points on drones is both better protection for your suits and much more firepower.
What would you recommend to a total noob to muster about 750-1000pts of Tau models?
you could do a lot worse than a Commander, a Ghostkeel,a units of stealth suits, a couple crisis suits, and fill the rest with drones and fire warriors. It's not 100% optimized, but it uses some of the better units we have available and provides a diverse force featuring some sweet models.
Thought I'd try here for some pointers. I'd like to start a Tau army, but really only focusing on crisis suits and larger mechs, not really any foot troops. It's more a building & painting project (like all of my armies) but I would like it to be a playable army in the end. I don't play competitively and I'm not a play to win type, but I'd like an army that won't get wiped out in 2 or 3 turns.
I'm going to start with the Stormsurge and then I imagine a couple of crisis suit teams & empire commander after that, and then go from there. I want to go for a "big robot" theme for the army.
Any tips for what to include? Or as I'm building, any weapon loadouts I should avoid (I may magnetize everything anyway)? Any other models I should consider adding in sooner rather than later?
The good news is that our big suits are awesome models. The bad news is that the only ones worth a crap in gameplay terms currently are the Y'Vahra and dual burst cannon xv9s. You could argue for Ghostkeels, too, I guess, but the rest are awful.
No matter, you'll have a super cool army, regardless! A Stormsurge is a good starting point, and you're probably going to want to magnetized it's weapons for whenever we get a codex. Currently the pulse blastcannon is mediocre since you very much want your Surge standing still for the +1 to hit. If you're up for magnets, that's a great strategy for Commanders and Crisis Suits. Most of their weapons are useful, and you'll allow yourself a lot of flexibility in list building. In fact, magnets are a good plan for anything that has multiple options.
I've always really enjoyed the Forgeworld suits, xv9s, Y'Vahras, and R'varnas, and those happen to be some of the more effective options we have. If you're willing to splurge on those, by all means, go for it.
Having read through this and a few other threads, I've drawn up a rough 2k list idea. Went with Brigade for 4CP a round usage (1 reroll in my shooting, 1 markerlight strat, 2 for insane bravado or 2 rerolls in their turn) over 3 rounds. I'm aware I could probably do 3 battalions and be better off, but I like the idea of brigades.
2x Commander with 3x MP + ATS
These guys, without any markerlights, are one of our only (semi) efficient long range AT options, and are also passable against medium infantry. Biggest advantage is they are highly mobile and can't be targetted.
1x Commander with 4x Fusion
Obvious choice is obvious. I play in an assault heavy meta, so I'm not keen on using 3x Fusion commanders, but I recognize how much better they are at picking up big enemies. Totally willing to swap as I get practice in.
2x6 Strike FW, sgt with markerlight
Cheap(ish) troops with a markerlight. Used to try to get a ML up before firing pathfinders, and if pathfinders bite it first, still a chance to get a ML up to use with ML strat.
2x10 Breachers
Second line troops, moving forward towards objectives, realistically will be my second speed bump.
2x10 Kroot
Deny DS, move forward and be obnoxious.
2x3 Stealth Suits
Midfield disruption. Was considering marksmen for more reliable markers, but wanted to try stealth suits first.
1x Ghostkeel with 3x fusion, target lock
More fusion and midfield. Model is cool.
2x1 Broadside, HRR, SMS, Target Lock
Broadsides are stupid overpriced. The HRR offers a halfway decent AT gun. Target Lock lets you deploy out of LOS and stay moving, even if it's only 5". Considering I intend to use the HRR in support of the markers and the missiles to support elsewhere, MT seems like a waste. Considered plasma vs SMS with the TL to make it a moving fire support unit, but Tau plasma is just kinda gak.
1 Broadside HYMP, SMS, ATS
Stupidly overpriced. Just a chance at a lot of dice.
Overall, the only big liability in the list is the 350 pts of shooting I'm getting for 600 pts for in the Broadsides. I don't like hammerheads much more, and the only cheap option to fill brigade slots are sniper drones. But I'm building this list with the assumption that the codex is dropping in a few months, and I'll be looking at at least a 10-20% points reduction and/or large damage output increase. Other option is to drop to 2x battalion and swap the broadsides with a stormsurge, fill the remaining points with markerlights.
I've got a friend who likes to run 5 Coldstars and 5 triple missile+ATS commanders, along with an Ethereal and a bunch of drones (shield mainly). I've faced that list, and let me tell you it is nasty. It's definitely not unbeatable, but it's probably one of the strongest Tau lists possible at present.
ZergSmasher wrote: I've got a friend who likes to run 5 Coldstars and 5 triple missile+ATS commanders, along with an Ethereal and a bunch of drones (shield mainly). I've faced that list, and let me tell you it is nasty. It's definitely not unbeatable, but it's probably one of the strongest Tau lists possible at present.
Coldstars seem attractive except having such a limited weapon load out. Essentially two burst cannons and one missile pod really doesn't put their massive mobility to use, imo. How does he use them?
ZergSmasher wrote: I've got a friend who likes to run 5 Coldstars and 5 triple missile+ATS commanders, along with an Ethereal and a bunch of drones (shield mainly). I've faced that list, and let me tell you it is nasty. It's definitely not unbeatable, but it's probably one of the strongest Tau lists possible at present.
Coldstars seem attractive except having such a limited weapon load out. Essentially two burst cannons and one missile pod really doesn't put their massive mobility to use, imo. How does he use them?
He keeps them behind a screen of shield drones, using their mobility to move them to whichever side the enemy is on. Many times the burst cannons are out of range, but when they are in range that's a fair amount of shots that hit on 2's and wound on 3's against most non-vehicle, non-monster targets. He usually puts ATS on these guys as well to make those shots AP-1. Basically they are more reliable than flamers and have better range, but they are mainly defensive. Not as good in overwatch, but it should be mentioned that in the game I played I charged exactly one commander before I was brutally tabled, and even then I failed to kill it.
Having read through this and a few other threads, I've drawn up a rough 2k list idea. Went with Brigade for 4CP a round usage (1 reroll in my shooting, 1 markerlight strat, 2 for insane bravado or 2 rerolls in their turn) over 3 rounds. I'm aware I could probably do 3 battalions and be better off, but I like the idea of brigades.
2x Commander with 3x MP + ATS
These guys, without any markerlights, are one of our only (semi) efficient long range AT options, and are also passable against medium infantry. Biggest advantage is they are highly mobile and can't be targetted.
1x Commander with 4x Fusion
Obvious choice is obvious. I play in an assault heavy meta, so I'm not keen on using 3x Fusion commanders, but I recognize how much better they are at picking up big enemies. Totally willing to swap as I get practice in.
2x6 Strike FW, sgt with markerlight
Cheap(ish) troops with a markerlight. Used to try to get a ML up before firing pathfinders, and if pathfinders bite it first, still a chance to get a ML up to use with ML strat.
2x10 Breachers
Second line troops, moving forward towards objectives, realistically will be my second speed bump.
2x10 Kroot
Deny DS, move forward and be obnoxious.
2x3 Stealth Suits
Midfield disruption. Was considering marksmen for more reliable markers, but wanted to try stealth suits first.
1x Ghostkeel with 3x fusion, target lock
More fusion and midfield. Model is cool.
2x1 Broadside, HRR, SMS, Target Lock
Broadsides are stupid overpriced. The HRR offers a halfway decent AT gun. Target Lock lets you deploy out of LOS and stay moving, even if it's only 5". Considering I intend to use the HRR in support of the markers and the missiles to support elsewhere, MT seems like a waste. Considered plasma vs SMS with the TL to make it a moving fire support unit, but Tau plasma is just kinda gak.
1 Broadside HYMP, SMS, ATS
Stupidly overpriced. Just a chance at a lot of dice.
Overall, the only big liability in the list is the 350 pts of shooting I'm getting for 600 pts for in the Broadsides. I don't like hammerheads much more, and the only cheap option to fill brigade slots are sniper drones. But I'm building this list with the assumption that the codex is dropping in a few months, and I'll be looking at at least a 10-20% points reduction and/or large damage output increase. Other option is to drop to 2x battalion and swap the broadsides with a stormsurge, fill the remaining points with markerlights.
Are Broadsides in there just for the brigade? I think you'll be disappointed, esp in an assault heavy meta. Hounds and Gun Drones are great, esp for tactical players. No matter what, KP screw Tau. Fireblade and Overwatch make for a great anvil, with a few Shields I think it's the most feasible way to field Broadsides. Markerlights are ok, but in no way vital.
Are Broadsides in there just for the brigade? I think you'll be disappointed, esp in an assault heavy meta. Hounds and Gun Drones are great, esp for tactical players. No matter what, KP screw Tau. Fireblade and Overwatch make for a great anvil, with a few Shields I think it's the most feasible way to field Broadsides. Markerlights are ok, but in no way vital.
I think you're 100% right. Mathhammer never tells the full story, but in my experience it gives you a pretty good idea of what to expect, so my expectation for the Broadsides is super duper low. They're mostly just there for the brigade, like I said I could swap them with a stormsurge and figure out a double battalion instead.
My biggest issue with hounds and gun drones is their LD. Forces me to either go MSU or have copious CP for morale mitigation, though in actuality I imagine units will be getting picked up wholesale since neither is particularly durable (or expensive). Agreed on KP, currently Tau don't seem to have any expensive large units worth taking (Except the stormsurge, and the math puts it pretty firmly in the usable but not exceptional category), and their cheap stuff is mostly garbage LD so you're best served with MSU. But yes, I think hounds and gun drones look to be super strong, and there's a good chance I'll end up adjusting my list to accommodate them. For right now, I'm just trying to put together a solid 2k list that isn't going to blow over in most games, not something I will take to GTs (I use nids for that).
Cadre fireblades? What do you mean make for a great anvil? Put them with sizable gun drone/strike squads and use them to help with overwatch, I'm assuming?
Why not just go 2x gun drones for the same price as 1 shield drone? The 5+++ seems less attractive than a whole second model. With all the commanders and such I can easily have lots of pairs of drones running around.
I figured my output without markerlights, and wanted a list that could use them to help take down a single high value target per turn, rather than be relied on for every unit in the army. Pathfinders are too soft, and all other sources are too unreliable/expensive to rely on getting more than 1-2 markers per turn. If you instead expect to only ever try to mark 1 unit, and are just aiming to get that one target to 5, then it seems a lot more feasible (Especially with the markerlight stratagem giving you at least 2).
Exactly so on Fireblade. Solid area denial, very tough nut to crack. If someone focuses on it, you can usually win the game elsewhere with Commanders and Stealth/Drone teams.
Shields cost the same as gun drones. A few hanging back with Broads makes sense. Same for Fusion Commanders.
Hounds probably should be MSU, but you are right that it can be a pain. I use 5 and 10-man movement trays, helps a lot. It's not a complete waste to have a flying Ethereal accompany the Stealths to support 4-6 drone units, so up to 48 drones. There's usually a Hound or Kroot unit around as well to buff.
xmbk wrote: Exactly so on Fireblade. Solid area denial, very tough nut to crack. If someone focuses on it, you can usually win the game elsewhere with Commanders and Stealth/Drone teams.
Shields cost the same as gun drones. A few hanging back with Broads makes sense. Same for Fusion Commanders.
Hounds probably should be MSU, but you are right that it can be a pain. I use 5 and 10-man movement trays, helps a lot. It's not a complete waste to have a flying Ethereal accompany the Stealths to support 4-6 drone units, so up to 48 drones. There's usually a Hound or Kroot unit around as well to buff.
Shield drones have shield generators, those are 8 pts. So 16 pts/model vs 8pts/model for gun drones. If the argument is that they're not intended to pay for them because their entry does not say they're equipped with them, I reference the precedent with hemlocks to say they are still intended to pay for them. If they were intended to pay a different amount (0), they would have a separate entry, or a different name for their equipment.
[Edit] Drone costs include their wargear, moot point
xmbk wrote: Exactly so on Fireblade. Solid area denial, very tough nut to crack. If someone focuses on it, you can usually win the game elsewhere with Commanders and Stealth/Drone teams.
Shields cost the same as gun drones. A few hanging back with Broads makes sense. Same for Fusion Commanders.
Hounds probably should be MSU, but you are right that it can be a pain. I use 5 and 10-man movement trays, helps a lot. It's not a complete waste to have a flying Ethereal accompany the Stealths to support 4-6 drone units, so up to 48 drones. There's usually a Hound or Kroot unit around as well to buff.
Shield drones have shield generators, those are 8 pts. So 16 pts/model vs 8pts/model for gun drones. If the argument is that they're not intended to pay for them because their entry does not say they're equipped with them, I reference the precedent with hemlocks to say they are still intended to pay for them. If they were intended to pay a different amount (0), they would have a separate entry, or a different name for their equipment.
I was always under the impression that the shield generator cost was only for the support systems. You're actually the only person I've ever seen reference it as an additional cost on Shield Drones.
xmbk wrote: Exactly so on Fireblade. Solid area denial, very tough nut to crack. If someone focuses on it, you can usually win the game elsewhere with Commanders and Stealth/Drone teams.
Shields cost the same as gun drones. A few hanging back with Broads makes sense. Same for Fusion Commanders.
Hounds probably should be MSU, but you are right that it can be a pain. I use 5 and 10-man movement trays, helps a lot. It's not a complete waste to have a flying Ethereal accompany the Stealths to support 4-6 drone units, so up to 48 drones. There's usually a Hound or Kroot unit around as well to buff.
Shield drones have shield generators, those are 8 pts. So 16 pts/model vs 8pts/model for gun drones. If the argument is that they're not intended to pay for them because their entry does not say they're equipped with them, I reference the precedent with hemlocks to say they are still intended to pay for them. If they were intended to pay a different amount (0), they would have a separate entry, or a different name for their equipment.
Except for the fact that you're completely wrong. Reread the Tactical Drone unit entry. Shield Drones are not equipped with Shield Generators. They instead have a special rule Shield Generator: Shield Drones have a 4+ invulnerable save. The Tactical Drones unit entry specifically states that Gun Drones come equipped with 2 Pulse Carbines and Markerlight Drones come equipped with a Markerlight. Nowhere does it say that Shield Drones are equipped with Shield Generators. It doesn't matter if the special rule has the same name as a support system, they are not the same thing. You don't pay points for equipment the model does not have, and you don't pay points for special rules.
In my german index, on the page for the pointcosts, is the entry for Drones and Turrets listed with the little sentence that wargear is included in the costs.
Except for the fact that you're completely wrong. Reread the Tactical Drone unit entry. Shield Drones are not equipped with Shield Generators. They instead have a special rule Shield Generator: Shield Drones have a 4+ invulnerable save. The Tactical Drones unit entry specifically states that Gun Drones come equipped with 2 Pulse Carbines and Markerlight Drones come equipped with a Markerlight. Nowhere does it say that Shield Drones are equipped with Shield Generators. It doesn't matter if the special rule has the same name as a support system, they are not the same thing. You don't pay points for equipment the model does not have, and you don't pay points for special rules.
If you took the time to actually read my post, you would see that I pointed out exactly what you said, and referenced the hemlock wraithfighter for precedent. This is the exact argument people used for the hemlock wraithfighter, and they were wrong.
Joey86 wrote: In my german index, on the page for the pointcosts, is the entry for Drones and Turrets listed with the little sentence that wargear is included in the costs.
However, this is true of the English version as well, making my point moot, and shield drones obviously superior for defense. Thanks!
I think you're going to be surprised by the dakka gun drones throw out. They compare well to the Devilgant bomb, enough so that it's worth supporting them with Stealths(definitely) and maybe Fireblade/Ethereal. T4 and a 4+ is pretty durable, too.
One thing that has puzzled me since 8th was released is why people like shield drones as much as they do. I'm sure I'm missing something, here, since just about every competitive list I see relies heavily on them. My problem with them is that nobody ever trains firepower on them that the 4++ would be useful against. That is, my drones tend to get wiped by small arms before the big guns come to play. Consequently, I've found the extra killing power of gun drones a lot more useful than the 4++/5+++ shield drones bring to the table. Am I off base?
In general, I agree that Guns are better. But if the drone is sitting in the back guarding Broads, Shield makes more sense. For Fusion, every wound counts.
Sorry to just drop this in here but has anyone else seen that broadsides are considered "no longer available" on the games workshop store list? I didn't see any others but saw this as something interesting. Of course, I could be late to the party here so sorry if that's the case
OmniaGladius13 wrote: Sorry to just drop this in here but has anyone else seen that broadsides are considered "no longer available" on the games workshop store list? I didn't see any others but saw this as something interesting. Of course, I could be late to the party here so sorry if that's the case
It just means they are out of stock and awaiting a new production cycle. Just like every other time.
OmniaGladius13 wrote: Sorry to just drop this in here but has anyone else seen that broadsides are considered "no longer available" on the games workshop store list? I didn't see any others but saw this as something interesting. Of course, I could be late to the party here so sorry if that's the case
It just means they are out of stock and awaiting a new production cycle. Just like every other time.
SJ
I can see that as a possibility, but there's kits marked, "currently out of stock", and then there is the broadside kit that is marked," no longer available". Unless it's just marked incorrectly, I don't see that being the case here. Of course I'm not watching their store every second of the day so I could be wrong.
LVO boasted some interesting Tau lists. Looks like we were kind of in the middle of the pack, which is unsurprising. Most lists primarily commander, drone, and/or Y'Vahra spam, as expected, but there were some catchy differences between them. I'm hopeful our codex shakes things up some for us!
So.. from Advanced Tau Tactica, someone who has supposedly gotten a preview of the new tau codex said
"I bet once the codex drops people will stop calling it the RIPtide and go for REAPtide instead"
Do you, dakka tau players, really want the riptide to be THAT good again? 100% i want it to be "good-enough" or slightly better, I have 3 that was not inconsequential money and time, but I don't want 7th ed OP again.
I honestly don't think Riptides were overpowered last edition. They were very good, sure, but it was the Riptide Wing that broke them. In any event, I'm looking for a usable unit. I'd prefer a good unit since we're supposed to be the crazy shooting army and whatnot, but I'll settle for useful. A massive points reduction and some extra power would be nice. As long as it's costed comparably with things of similar firepower and durability, I'll be happy.
MilkmanAl wrote: I honestly don't think Riptides were overpowered last edition. They were very good, sure, but it was the Riptide Wing that broke them. In any event, I'm looking for a usable unit. I'd prefer a good unit since we're supposed to be the crazy shooting army and whatnot, but I'll settle for useful. A massive points reduction and some extra power would be nice. As long as it's costed comparably with things of similar firepower and durability, I'll be happy.
For the grand ol price of 210 points last edition, its effective firepower to durability was pretty profound. Especially with ecpa, and EWO, you could nova charge with almost impunity, and nuke the living heck out of natural counters. I am not suggesting it should have been 300 in 7th. but it was under-costed, therefore overpowered in 7th. Just decidedly more-so with riptide wings, but that was a symptom of formations and 7th.
I would say its current iteration, not being innately immune to move and fire heavy penalty, that even 210 points would be over-costed for the IA version in particular. But if they doubled its firepower would that be enough?
An easy comparison for them is a lascannon Predator, which is 190 pts. Firepower-wise, you're trading a lascannon hit for 2 SMS, which is fine, but you're paying another 160pts for the privilege. In other words, double power or half price is what they need, more or less. It's a shame.
pumaman1 wrote: So.. from Advanced Tau Tactica, someone who has supposedly gotten a preview of the new tau codex said
"I bet once the codex drops people will stop calling it the RIPtide and go for REAPtide instead"
Do you, dakka tau players, really want the riptide to be THAT good again? 100% i want it to be "good-enough" or slightly better, I have 3 that was not inconsequential money and time, but I don't want 7th ed OP again.
Honestly, I just want more viable options for running my army. Drone spam and fusion commanders out the wazoo just doesn't seem fun for me. I would also like to try and get my broadsides to be cheaper for what they provide. I love the models and desperately wish I could run them without feeling like I am cutting fingers off to bring them.
Did the person hear anything else about the codex?
Broadsides have always been a favorite of mine, and railsides are one of the most crazy awesome models in 40k, in my humble opinion. I really hope they become useful.
pumaman1 wrote: So.. from Advanced Tau Tactica, someone who has supposedly gotten a preview of the new tau codex said
"I bet once the codex drops people will stop calling it the RIPtide and go for REAPtide instead"
Do you, dakka tau players, really want the riptide to be THAT good again? 100% i want it to be "good-enough" or slightly better, I have 3 that was not inconsequential money and time, but I don't want 7th ed OP again.
I only ever played Triple Tide one time. Jut to say I did, in my last 7th Edition tournament. Out of guilt. You get to a certain point skill wise, where you just feel like it minimizes what you can do if you use such things.
They were extremely powerful in their formation, and so oppressive that although they can and were defeated many times, it was probably and literally never fun. Just a guess on my part but...
Let's hope they don't return to the power they had in that formation.
I won the best sportsman prize at the 2016 UKGT finals using a riptide wing and a wraithknight in 7th. Finished in 8th place overall.
Ultimately whether people have fun is far more about the attitude you bring to the table than the models you bring. It’s possible to be a good player (by whatever definition you want to use) without being a bad human being.
I’m looking forward to the codex. My riptides are getting dusty, and their ghostkeel little brothers are still mostly on their sprues. If we get balanced rules for them (for once!) I'll be very happy.
Mandragola wrote: I won the best sportsman prize at the 2017 UKGT finals using a riptide wing and a wraithknight in 7th. Finished in 8th place overall.
Ultimately whether people have fun is far more about the attitude you bring to the table than the models you bring. It’s possible to be a good player (by whatever definition you want to use) without being a bad human being.
Well said.
I'd like to get a third Riptide just to have a cool trio of big mechas, but I'll be happy if I can play two without shooting myself in the leg.
Mandragola wrote: I won the best sportsman prize at the 2016 UKGT finals using a riptide wing and a wraithknight in 7th. Finished in 8th place overall.
Ultimately whether people have fun is far more about the attitude you bring to the table than the models you bring. It’s possible to be a good player (by whatever definition you want to use) without being a bad human being.
I’m looking forward to the codex. My riptides are getting dusty, and their ghostkeel little brothers are still mostly on their sprues. If we get balanced rules for them (for once!) I'll be very happy.
<Edit> 2016 actually. Doesn’t time fly!
Having no fun is easy against the old Tripletide list. Why put myself 8n rhat position. Nah. I used it once to say I did but I definitely didnt like it as a mainstay
SO since new codex is "coming soon" I would enjoy seeing lists that you've had the most fun with in 8th ed. Good, bad, silly, ugly, trolling, whatever, what are some of your favorite lists?
3 outrider detachments 1500pts (1449)
3x3 piranha burst cannon 2 seeker missile (729 pts)
3x2 piranha fusion blaster 2 seeker missile (492 pts)
2x6 and 1x7 marker drone (gotta use those seeker missles) (152)
3x fireblade (126)
So I took a really harsh beating (and tabling) by Tau this weekend, which isnt necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, BUT i see alot of rules discrepancies after the fact that I'd just like to inquire here, with more experienced (readers).
My opponent kept hitting on 3+ with MOST of his units, like: battlesuits, the Riptide, Pirhannas, and his drones were hitting on 4+. When I asked, he said he had a Drone that helped increase BS. I cannot find this anywhere. Now, as far as I can tell, the only way to increase BS is with 5+ Markerlights, when all he had ever used was 1 to 2. Also, I need to remind him Markerlights are now Heavy.
His Missile Pod turret climbed up a hill. I had been pretty sure they were immobile. I was correct.
Lastly, he had shot Supporting fire overwatch at me, which is fine, But then AGAIN fired overwatch when I then charged them with a second unit. I even asked him to check his index which he did, and still said he was allowed to fire overwatch again. Turns out, not the case.
So what is this Drone that helps his units BS? He did have some FW units on the board (i think..), but I still cannot find out what he is talking about?
Nightlord1987 wrote: So I took a really harsh beating (and tabling) by Tau this weekend, which isnt necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, BUT i see alot of rules discrepancies after the fact that I'd just like to inquire here, with more experienced (readers).
My opponent kept hitting on 3+ with MOST of his units, like: battlesuits, the Riptide, Pirhannas, and his drones were hitting on 4+. When I asked, he said he had a Drone that helped increase BS. I cannot find this anywhere. Now, as far as I can tell, the only way to increase BS is with 5+ Markerlights, when all he had ever used was 1 to 2. Also, I need to remind him Markerlights are now Heavy.
His Missile Pod turret climbed up a hill. I had been pretty sure they were immobile. I was correct.
Lastly, he had shot Supporting fire overwatch at me, which is fine, But then AGAIN fired overwatch when I then charged them with a second unit. I even asked him to check his index which he did, and still said he was allowed to fire overwatch again. Turns out, not the case.
So what is this Drone that helps his units BS? He did have some FW units on the board (i think..), but I still cannot find out what he is talking about?
Drone controllers on suits can buff drones by +1 to hit, but they do not buff suits. Multiple units can shoot overwatch more than once IF you declare a multicharge at them. I think the only way to get positive hit modifiers is through longstrike or markerlights. Longstrike only buffs friendly nearby Hammerheads though. He could easily hit 5 Markerlights if he used the new Strategem, but that is still only 1 target a turn. Sounds like you faced a homebrew index instead of the real Tau Index.
Marker Drones don`t Suffer the Penalty for moving and firing heavy Weapons. All other Platforms (i remind of) do suffer the penalty unless the Target already has 3 Markers on.
It really sounds like your opponent cheated heavy.
You shouldn`t play against him anymore and it is always better to say show me the rule instead of check it again.
Nightlord1987 wrote: So I took a really harsh beating (and tabling) by Tau this weekend, which isnt necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, BUT i see alot of rules discrepancies after the fact that I'd just like to inquire here, with more experienced (readers).
My opponent kept hitting on 3+ with MOST of his units, like: battlesuits, the Riptide, Pirhannas, and his drones were hitting on 4+. When I asked, he said he had a Drone that helped increase BS. I cannot find this anywhere. Now, as far as I can tell, the only way to increase BS is with 5+ Markerlights, when all he had ever used was 1 to 2. Also, I need to remind him Markerlights are now Heavy.
His Missile Pod turret climbed up a hill. I had been pretty sure they were immobile. I was correct.
Lastly, he had shot Supporting fire overwatch at me, which is fine, But then AGAIN fired overwatch when I then charged them with a second unit. I even asked him to check his index which he did, and still said he was allowed to fire overwatch again. Turns out, not the case.
So what is this Drone that helps his units BS? He did have some FW units on the board (i think..), but I still cannot find out what he is talking about?
Drone controllers on suits can buff drones by +1 to hit, but they do not buff suits. Multiple units can shoot overwatch more than once IF you declare a multicharge at them. I think the only way to get positive hit modifiers is through longstrike or markerlights. Longstrike only buffs friendly nearby Hammerheads though. He could easily hit 5 Markerlights if he used the new Strategem, but that is still only 1 target a turn. Sounds like you faced a homebrew index instead of the real Tau Index.
Only once though using their 6" bubble. The unit BEING charged can do it more than once but not the units within 6
Hoo boy, major changes coming in with the Tau Codex.
If you guys had tanks collecting dust the good news is you'll be using them soon.
On the backside, drones aren't auto wound soakers anymore and you cannot spam commanders anymore (only 1 per detachment).
GW noticed that Tau vehicles weren't selling so they are getting a major buff. Points decreases across the board and tank version of all the guns are getting big upgrades.
No markerlight love over index chart, however we might see a stratagem dedicated to making use of them.
Eihnlazer wrote: Hoo boy, major changes coming in with the Tau Codex.
If you guys had tanks collecting dust the good news is you'll be using them soon.
On the backside, drones aren't auto wound soakers anymore and you cannot spam commanders anymore (only 1 per detachment).
GW noticed that Tau vehicles weren't selling so they are getting a major buff. Points decreases across the board and tank version of all the guns are getting big upgrades.
No markerlight love over index chart, however we might see a stratagem dedicated to making use of them.
1 commander per detachment seems a little weird. I knew they'd clamp down on them somehow, but now we're the only army without the potential for multiple HQs? Haechi has historically been a good info source, but I hope he's wrong about that and the marker lights.
They most likely don't want to nerf the commander, so they have to limit him otherwise people would never use the other HQ's.
Thematically it makes sense anyway. Tau are all about the greater good. All tau from different septs working together to cover and advance each other. If your only using commanders your not doing that.
Perhaps that's true. Commanders are strong, but I don't feel like they're overpowered given how squishy they are. A nerf could easily make them unusable in context of what other armies can bring for similar points. I think the best option would be to make everything else in the list similarly useful so Tau players have a choice to make instead of automatically spamming Commanders and Drones, but I can see just plain limiting them, too.
In any event, I'm really looking forward to this release. I'm hoping for usable units and some cool strats that keep us useful. Markers need a retooling, but it doesn't sound like that's going to happen. Oh well.
Eihnlazer wrote: They most likely don't want to nerf the commander, so they have to limit him otherwise people would never use the other HQ's.
Thematically it makes sense anyway. Tau are all about the greater good. All tau from different septs working together to cover and advance each other. If your only using commanders your not doing that.
Unless you are recreating The Eight of the Farsight Enclaves, in which case you need 6 commanders, a Riptide and a Broadside.
A lot of that sounds too good to be true. Commanders would be literally the only non-unique unit in the game to have a limit like that (I'm pretty sure anyways), and a Heavy 18 S6 AP-1 D2 gun for 35 points? Gimme a break.
Hopefully we get some more reliable rumors soon, as I'd love to get back to my Tau army.
A lot of that sounds too good to be true. Commanders would be literally the only non-unique unit in the game to have a limit like that (I'm pretty sure anyways)
IG Command squads have a one unit per Company Commander limit, same for Scion Command squads and Tempestor Primes, so there is precedent.
and a Heavy 18 S6 AP-1 D2 gun for 35 points? Gimme a break.
I'd say that's the nova charged profile for the Riptide heavy burst cannon. Remember that big models often get cheap weapons (often 0 point ones) because most of their cost is already in the base price for the model (and that not being the case is the reason why Riptides are so bad right now).
Eihnlazer wrote: They most likely don't want to nerf the commander, so they have to limit him otherwise people would never use the other HQ's.
Thematically it makes sense anyway. Tau are all about the greater good. All tau from different septs working together to cover and advance each other. If your only using commanders your not doing that.
Unless you are recreating The Eight of the Farsight Enclaves, in which case you need 6 commanders, a Riptide and a Broadside.
Just means no CP. Not even no stratagems if Mirror codex is a relic that lets you generate them from the opponent using them.
Based on the points changes Hikaru gave in the N&R thread, Broadsides are considerably more attractive now. Still a bit expensive for the damage output, but they're pretty durable. The rumored +6" to heavy/rapid fire also makes SMS that much harder to hide from.
The same sept could be a popular one for fire warrior based armies.
Not sure +1 cover for not moving will find a lot of use, considering the importance of mobility for scoring objectives. But, it may end up being pretty popular. The +1LD is good for large units, but then the reroll is more suited to low ROF high dmg units.
Stratagems will likely be a huge factor in choosing a sept.
If Advanced Targeting System remained the same or got cheaper, it's so much of an auto-take on all-missile Broadsides it's not even funny. 140 for the Broadside (if I'm not mistaken) then add whatever the ATS costs. Take Bor'kan. At 42", 8 S7 AP-2 D: D3 shots. At 36", 8 S5 AP-1 D:1 shots that ignore cover and line of sight. Yikes. Only BS 4+ though of course.
MilkmanAl wrote: Don't forget Borkan Y'Vahras with their 14" flamers. I mean, WTF. Speaking of auto-includes...
If they could get 3++ vs ranged, I'd agree. But at 400 pts, they're a bit fragile for their cost. Their potential damage output is terrifying though. 18" move with 14" flamer can do some serious damage. If an enemy doesn't kill it, it'll keep roasting things at the same efficacy thanks to auto hits. Pretty inefficient vs hordes for the cost, but they're basically a hard counter to custodes.
They're definitely glass cannons, but I feel like their shield drones (which are, in fact, good for 3++ against shooting) plus savior protocols should be satisfactory to at least get 1 turn of shooting off and probably 2. If it goes down in a turn, your opponent probably used enough firepower against it to warrant the 400pts anyway.
MilkmanAl wrote: They're definitely glass cannons, but I feel like their shield drones (which are, in fact, good for 3++ against shooting) plus savior protocols should be satisfactory to at least get 1 turn of shooting off and probably 2. If it goes down in a turn, your opponent probably used enough firepower against it to warrant the 400pts anyway.
Depends on how the savior protocols and such are changing, as Hikaru indicated they will be more in like with other bodyguard rules. Against some lists they'll be hard counters, others they will probably go down while doing very little. Definitely worth considering though, that gun at 14" on a fly platform with 18" of move is no joke. I would not be surprised to see it changed to assault.
I haven't really sat down to ponder the rumors just yet, but I figured I'd slap up some initial reactions to the info we have.
Warlord Traits
1) reroll wounds 1 against Monster or Vehs.
Eh, it's nice for a dropping Commander to be extra sure he nukes his target. Rerolling wounds is tough to come by and is pretty useful given that you'll probably be packing high-strength weapons on your Warlord.
2) your shooting phase, pick a visible enemy unit to your warlord, each time any friendly <sept> unit within 6' of warlord makes a wound roll of 6, add 1 to AP of attack
Sounds cool, but it's too narrow. Even if you cluster everything you can around your Warlord, that'll probably only get you a few extra -1s.
3) Add 6 to Advance instead of rolling dice.
Nice for repositioning, I guess? I'd rather reroll 1s to wound.
4) If warlord within 12' of enemy unit at start of shooting phase, you can reroll hits for your warlord until end of phase.
You can probably reroll hits for your Warlord anyway. Pass.
5) reroll hits for warlord, if they have not moved this turn. if they move for any reason, they lose the trait until the start of next turn.
Uh...does anyone ever NOT move their Warlord (i.e. Commander)? Pass.
6) warlord can advance and shoot as if he hasn't advanced.
Definitely a whole hell of a lot better than the advance bonus above. Probably the only other trait I'd consider over rerolling 1s to wound against monsters and vehicles.
Sept Warlord Traits
Tau : 5+ save against Mortal Wounds
Vior'la : If warlord has master of war, Volley Fire or Failure is Not an Option ability, the range increased to 9". additionally, if your army is battleforged, +1 command pt
Definitely nice for Drone or FW spam. Who doesn't love bonus CP?
Dal'yth: While within 12" of Warlord, friendly Kroot and Vespid units gain For The Greater Good ability
Essentially useless.
Sa'cea: Friendly Sa'cea unit within 6" of warlord, reduce the number of model that flee as a result of morale by 1
Bork'an: For each hit roll made by warlord, +1 to wound for that hit
Yes. Awesome.
Farsight: Warlord can perform 6" heroic intervention. Additionally, if your warlord has charged , was charged or heroic intervened, until end of phase, can reroll hits.
Might be absolutely amazing for any army that isn't Tau. I'm not counting on getting combat abilities on any unit good enough to make this worthwhile.
Sept Traits:
Tau: Overwatch on a 5 regardless of firing model BS or any modifiers.
Oh good, rewards for castling. Have fun charging that. I think the usefulness may be tempered a bit by how much of our stuff has the FLY keyword, but this'll definitely halt a fair amount of drop charges. I'd call it a solid defensive option, but I prefer my defense to come in the form of more offense.
Vior'la : Treats all RF weapons as assault weapons (RF 1 treated as assault 1). Additionally, no penalty to advance and fire the assault weapons.
I think this is actually bad for most units with rapid fire weapons, assuming you lose your double tap at half range. We'll have to see the specifics, assuming these rumors are even real.
Dal'yth : Unit that does not manta strike, move, fall back, charge, pile in or consolidate this turn may claim the benefit of cover even while in the open.
It's uncommon for me to not move a unit, so this basically does nothing. Sacrificing mobility is rarely good.
Sa'cea: +1 LD, Additionally, in shooting phase, you can reroll a single failed hit roll for each Sa'cea unit
I feel like this kind of stacks with the copious rerolls of 1s to hit we have where most things you'd use to take advantage of this trait are concerned. That is, most big units with a low rate of fire are probably going to have a high BS, so 1s will be most or all of your misses. Potentially useful for things like railhead spam or multiple HRR Broadsides.
Bork'an : Add 6" to maximum range of any Rapid Fire and Heavy weapon they are armed with.
This stands out to me as the best sept trait by far. As noted above, Y'Vahras, Broadsides, and Fire Warriors benefit massively from this trait. Heavy weapon Pathfinders and even the FW Hammerhead options also get a big boost. Barracudas and fusion eradicators on the Ta'unar also come to mind.
Farsight: Reroll wounds of 1 against models that are within 6' of the firing (farsight) model.
Dude, don't be within 6" of your target.
Riptides: 250 for the HBC/SMS variant sounds okay-ish. It'd be better - useful, even - if that 18 shot, 2 dmg weapon we heard about was what the overcharged HBC looks like now. At a minimum of 280pts, IA in all its configurations is still complete crap. The IA itself needs a rework.
Gun Drones +4pts
Shield Drones +2
Marker Drones same.
Drones will still be useful. I don't think the gun and marker variants needed that significant of a hike, especially given the rumored changes to Savior Protocols, but meh. They're fairly costed.
Broadside -20 HRR -27 HYMP -16 SMS-5:
118pts base for the HRR/plasma variant? Yeah, I'll take that. I think the Borkan missileside will be pretty popular, though. 148pts for that volume of firepower augmented by an ATS is awesome. You extend their almost-enough range of 30/36" to a much more workable 36/42", too. I'm pumped one of my favorite models is useful again!
Skyray -19
Barring big changes to seeker missile mechanics, this is still one of the worst units in the game. Move along.
Hammerhead -17
Interesting. With sept bonuses plus Longstrike, these could be useful. I won't go as far as saying they're good just yet, but I'm hopeful. 190 for the twin plasma/ 2 SMS and 200pts for the twin HBC/2 SMS loadouts seem like the best bets. That's a whole lot of dakka hitting on 2+.
No change to suits is very disappointing. My only guess is GW thinks you should only have 1 maybe 2 units of them as scalpels. Really would have liked BS 3+ on them if they are going to be that elite.
The change to all the ion overcharge is nice and adds a lot of reliability to them. I plan to be using all 3 of my ghostkeels now I think.
Fire Warriors always looked good to me in 8th anyways. They are work horses.
Can't argue with that, but they were overshadowed by Gun Drones in spectacular fashion. With the points changes (and range changes - can't really see competitive lists using anything but Borkan), FW are a really great choice.
MilkmanAl wrote: can't really see competitive lists using anything but Borkan
Indeed. If these are accurate, it is flat out better than any other sept trait and also has the best warlord trait. Seems GW wanted to make sure everybody was playing the T'au poster paint scheme.
For me, it is a mixed bag. Vior'la's sept trait gives more mobility with built in advance and fire without penalty, but changing rapid fire to assault potentially loses damage output at half range. The warlord trait is alright but Vior'la does not synergise with volley fire if we do actually lose a shot at half range.
My take so far is that it'll probably now be possible to make a decent Tau list without resorting to commander and drone spam. My riptides look like they might be somewhat viable again, and in fact lots of stuff looks usable.
I'm not too sure about crisis suits, which is an issue. Loads of other stuff seems to have felt the love, but not them. Not sure why that is, but it seems odd to me. Cheaper burst cannons might make them a good dakka platform, but not much else seems to have changed. And it's weird they are making CIBs better, while still providing no model of them (other than on the commander). A squad of farsight guys with CIBs and +1 to hit when they drop in would be good - but a pain to construct.
Those are nice. Unfortunately I quite often play at official GW events and they don't allow any 3rd party stuff to be used. I'd be stuck converting them out of ion rifles - or god knows what.
I actually wouldn't be at all surprised if they removed the option to take them on crisis suits in the new book. GW is turning against any kind of "kit bashing" options. Hopefully that won't be the case, but it's what I'd expect, based on past performance.
Those strats are disappointing. Focus fire's effect is good, but you'd better be taking down something huge for 3 CP. The Breacher one is just too narrow to be of regular use, but I guess it's nice to have in your pocket.
MilkmanAl wrote: Those strats are disappointing. Focus fire's effect is good, but you'd better be taking down something huge for 3 CP. The Breacher one is just too narrow to be of regular use, but I guess it's nice to have in your pocket.
I agree even something like a baneblade is slightly less scary with the changes to seekers missiles and it's not like we should be shooting fire warriors at them either. Might be ok to try and guarantee a kill on Magnus or Morty turn 1.
Breacher strat is very situational but I could see it being used.
The main issue really is going to be the points changes. That was always the main problem in the first place. Things like broadsides are coming down by so much that they might become good - or at least useful - regardless of stratagems.
And they do seem to have looked at making some of the guns significantly more powerful. The fire rate of the guns on ghostkeels, riptides and stormsurges has gone up, by a lot. Going from D6 to 6 shots for an overcharged cyclic ion raker is pretty serious, and gives a ghostkeel firepower comparable to a Leman Russ, on a platform that flies and is tricky to shoot at.
The cost of devilfish is coming down by a lot, to the point where the thing looks like a decent-ish gunship. Mech Tau could potentially become a thing again. Maybe.
Filling out a brigade will be very cheap, thanks to things like 35 point troop choices and drone/pathfinder units in fast attack. I actually quite like the idea of sniper drones if I can get focused fire on a target. They could do quite a lot of mortal wounds at range.
Overall I'm cautiously optimistic. I think I like the look of the T'au sept most, so far. But it remains to be seen what stratagems and stuff the other septs get. Punishing people who charge me seems like fun.
Silentz wrote: Not a tau player but assuming you have a Grand Strategist style CP farming trait or relic, 3 CP can be read as 0-3 CP.
Sometimes these "once per game I guess" abilities can be used 3 or 4 times.
Having +1 to wound on guns seems pretty legit to me for bringing down a big bad, or thinning out a poxwalker horde or whatever
Unknown on the relic but Tau don't have a CP recycling watloard trait in the leaked list, some of them seam very trash on what's been leaked but just have to wait and see what the final codex says.
1. We can spam CP really well. Since Fire Warriors are pretty great now, there's really no tax for Battalions at all. Even Brigades are relatively tax-free, though they do obviously prevent unit spam to a large degree. You can easily fit a Brigade and a Battalion in 2000pts with some points to play with.
2. If the twin HBC Hammerhead variant becomes heavy 24(!), hammerhead spam may well become popular. For 185 pts, including a SMS, that's a crazy amount of BS2 firepower. You might have to make them Tau Sept instead of Borkan (Boo!), But at least you'll never, ever get charged that way.
3. Pathfinders with ion rifles are so, so good now. Overcharging for 2 damage makes a world of difference. Might we see loads of Pathfinder spam?
4. Y'Vahra spam. With deep striking drones, it can happen. You'll have to keep a bunch in your DZ to prevent alpha strike disasters, but dropping in units of gun drones wherever you need some body guards can keep your glass cannons alive.
5. Of course, fire warrior spam. Oh God, fire warrior spam. I believe you can potentially dump enough S5 on any army to have a fighting chance. If you're really dedicated, you could have 150+ of them supported with Commanders for anti-vehicle punch, some fireblades and pulse accelerators. Damn.
If the rumour about coldstar can take any weapons is true it's going to be insane, imagine coldstar with fusion blaster. Good heavens if fusion blades are a thing that be amazing!
But I have a sneaky suspicion his movement will be limited to 16" with auto 6" advance...
Tau brigade will be great, like 0 tac units.
6 strike team
Commander, ethereal, fireblade
3x3 ion pathfinder
3x middle side
Elite as you like, burst tide looks like a winner to me, ghostkeels with shield gen looks great as well.
Than have fast attack detachements for the extra commanders (kroot hounds, more pathfinder, gun drones...
- Can somebody explain what the bork'an trait is doing? Don't understand the wording.
- why do people still hate on the IA Tide? I think the buff to the IA + Point reductions make it pretty damn good. I used it with the index in friendly games so.etimes and it already did well there.
- Ion Heads seem to be great,any other oppinions?
- so glad we do not need to / are able to spam commanders and mixed lists seem viable!
- I think Ion Crisis will be very good with 3 weapons each. Insane amount of dakka and can easily be buffed by Markerlights.
Eihnlazer wrote: All Bork"an sept weapons that have rapid fire or heavy gain +6" to their range.
Pulse rifles go to 36", plasma goes to 30", and so on. This means fire warriors now fire 3 times from 18" away if a fireblade is nearbye.
If pulse accelerator drones still work the same fire warriors Bork'an would be 36 +6 so 42 and 21 rapid fire, that could be real nasty with fireblade bonus if there is a strat to double shoot firewarriors I can see a lot of fire warriors seeing tables for the first time in a while.
I think im gonna use B'orkans rules to my custom sept. Only problem is i was designing my list around being mech + suits. However i could use my 2 devil fish to go grab objectives
Kdash wrote: So, the question is... Is a Riptide, with HBC, SMS, Target Lock and ATS worth the rumoured 309 points?
I generally compare big ticket items to the equivalent points in squishies. 309 points now buys you 44 Fire Warriors that can potentially pump out 132 shots inside 21". That doesn't necessarily make the Riptide 'bad' but it's one way to look at it. Different units with different roles, I know, but I find I'm easily seduced by volume dakka.
If nothing else, this reveal has me hopeful that our other strats will be cool and useful. The ones yesterday didn't do much for me, but both of these are really cool and will see a lot of use in my lists, I think.
Kdash wrote: So, the question is... Is a Riptide, with HBC, SMS, Target Lock and ATS worth the rumoured 309 points?
It probably is, I think. It's got decent firepower for its price, though arguably not great durability.
The Ion accelerator option is also pretty interesting. It doesn't really need an ATS, which allows for other options in that support slot. I think you probably want SMS with the HBC and something else - probably fusion - with the IA.
The cost is still very high. It remains to be seen whether they are worth it.
FirePainter wrote: So technically with the riptide strategem you can overcharge and jump. So it's bring jsj back although it costs a mortal wound and a CP.
I'm thinking more along the lines of the overcharge and the 3++ myself 90% of the time.
Aeri wrote: - Can somebody explain what the bork'an trait is doing? Don't understand the wording.
- why do people still hate on the IA Tide? I think the buff to the IA + Point reductions make it pretty damn good. I used it with the index in friendly games so.etimes and it already did well there.
- Ion Heads seem to be great,any other oppinions?
- so glad we do not need to / are able to spam commanders and mixed lists seem viable!
- I think Ion Crisis will be very good with 3 weapons each. Insane amount of dakka and can easily be buffed by Markerlights.
1. I think it's just +1 to wound, right? Very weird wording in the rumor.
2. The Iontide is still really expensive for what it does. The easiest comparison is a lascannon predator which, even figuring the overcharged nova profile in, registers about the same amount of hits with a similar weapon for 3/5 the cost. Those extra points get you a couple SMS and a bit of extra durability (which is questionable due to how often the 'Tide hurts itself). Meanwhile, the nova HBC is a phenomenal everything killer for 35 fewer points. I haven't crunched the numbers, but I'm going to baselessly assert that the HBC is a much better all-around choice and might even be better against heavy targets.
3. Ionheads are mediocre at best. Even with the points drop, they don't put out the damage you'd want from a 180+ point model. Also, you have the twin HBC variant that may soon boast 24 shots from its main weapon for just a few more points. I'd much rather have the latter.
4. Agreed. I'll still be running a few Commanders since they're an amazing way to drop in and nuke something, but variety is always more fun.
5. CIB Crisis Suits seem to be all the rage over on ATT, and while they certainly got a boost, I'm not convinced they're worth 87pts apiece. Maybe if you use a FSE detachment with one big unit and pop the +1 BS on drop strat they're rumored to have they'd be worthwhile?
True but using the jump could get you in range of something next turn without getting a -1 for moving. The 3++ is generally more useful but negating the -1 for moving with a heavy weapon could be nice at times.
I'm on board with being disappointed with Crisis Suits. I love a horde army as much as anyone, but I was kind of hoping to be able to make a time limit friendly list with the Suits.
I think 12 for gun drones is a bit of an overreaction.
12 is maybe a point or two too high, but if they deep strike, that can cure a lot of ills really quickly. Protection for suits plus a wicked barrage of firepower is a potent combo.
knowing what you know about the weapons point changes how would you still run crisis suits if you have them....why do I feel 3 with 2 burst cannons are the best bet for hurting something.
ballzonya wrote: knowing what you know about the weapons point changes how would you still run crisis suits if you have them....why do I feel 3 with 2 burst cannons are the best bet for hurting something.
I think ions will be the best. The boost to overcharging will let them reliably damage light tanks and heavy infantry.
Kdash wrote: So, the question is... Is a Riptide, with HBC, SMS, Target Lock and ATS worth the rumoured 309 points?
It probably is, I think. It's got decent firepower for its price, though arguably not great durability.
The Ion accelerator option is also pretty interesting. It doesn't really need an ATS, which allows for other options in that support slot. I think you probably want SMS with the HBC and something else - probably fusion - with the IA.
The cost is still very high. It remains to be seen whether they are worth it.
190 points for 4 lascannon shots at 3+, t7 s+ 11 W, 285 for 3 w more 1 better armor, worse bs base, for statistically still less damage (3.5 shots still at bs 3,) s8 , or 3.5 shots at same str 3 set damage, but each 1 is another mortal wound, or nova 1 guaranteed wound for heavy 6 s8 d3 damage ( so 12 potential damage) or still mortal wound for each 1 rolled 6 shots of s9 set 3 dmage..
its damage potential is slightly more consistent, but its max is lower, harder to 50% obscure, will hurt itself rather often, and chew through cp if using that strategem. i'd say 100 riptides vs ~120 quad-las preds, las preds will take the victory
and real talk for points it would be closer to 135 las preds vs 100 riptides
Anyone else think we might have to start a new tactics thread for post-codex? This thread has served well, and I appreciate the work people have done here, but there's soon more to discover and test.
The marksmen+drones are cheap, and with +1 to wound the drones become -passable- character snipers for things like slamguinius or custodes captains. Nothing amazing, but, at 2 shots a head, hitting on as good as 2, but most likely 4s (Depending on uplink, drone controllers, markerlights, etc.) and getting a +1 to wound, they'll cause you should get a mortal wound per unit with the 3cp T'au strat up (6 shots, 3 hit, 1 MW), if not better (Hitting on 2s rerolling 1s, you should get 6 hits, and 2 MW).
The real meat of this brigade though, is the onion of death. Throw the 3 characters in the middle, and wrap fire warriors around them in concentric circles, spacing appropriate to enemy assault threats (Jump enemies need less than 1" between layers, hordes need you to be super packed in tight so they can't isolate models, etc.). Now, if someone assaults any part of your onion, you can throw the character markerlights to start. Hopefully you get 1 of the 2, with a 5+, it's not terrible odds. Regardless, you now have 180 (Less casualties, or any models you elect to use photon grenades/sgt markerlights) pulse shots of overwatch (3 shots because of fireblade). Even estimating 120 shots, you should have 40 hits, against marines 26 wounds, so 8-9 dead marines. Whatever still gets in will probably kill most of a fire warrior unit. Even still, with LD9 from Ethereal, a fire warrior unit that lost even 7 members will only be wiped on a 5, because 6 is autopass. You may also have a 6+++ from the ethereal, to help mitigate losses. But, assuming you do lose a full unit (Which is totally possible), they can consolidate into the next unit. Maybe activate a 3cp stratagem to swing again, and do the same. Your turn, you have now lost 140 pts of firewarriors or less to assault. You can fall back out of combat and fire at full because of darkstrider.
The best part is the onion itself is less than 600 pts. Any shooting dedicated to weakening it is not focused on the other 2/3 of your army. If they aren't targetting it, you still have 8 markerlights and/or up to 61 pulse rifles (+1 carbine), which triple tap in short range. So just keep moving them upfield and sit their big ass on an objective to make your opponent cry.
The total cost of the whole brigade is 852 pts, with 6 markerlights for the sgts.
Personally, I'm leaning towards a Borkan Brigade to go with it.
Put a missile commander in the T'au and the ethereal in the Borkan (Assuming 1 commander per detachment), as Ethereal buffs are not based on sept (Unless that changes, obv). Missile commander can hang out in the onion and do his job, while adding a bit more kick to the overwatch.
Borkan then has the usual fusion commander, to do fusion commander things.
3x10 kroot, for doing kroot things.
Then maybe rail/plasma broadsides, ghostkeel or two, etc. Lots of points left over to work with.
Depending on what other stratagems/relics come out, could easily go with something other than Borkan as well. Just seems like the best current candidate for fire support.
I'm somewhat inclined to go pure Borkan Fire warrior spam. S5 has you wounding anything on at least 5s, so you're a threat to any target. That composition is far from optimal, but it's probably pretty tough to crack for all the reasons you mentioned. Better yet, all your opponent's multi-damage weapons would be wasted as you fill the board with 250 Tau bodies, 240 of which dump out 3 S5 shots within 18". Vehicle and flyer spam would be bad news for you, though.
MilkmanAl wrote: I'm somewhat inclined to go pure Borkan Fire warrior spam. S5 has you wounding anything on at least 5s, so you're a threat to any target. That composition is far from optimal, but it's probably pretty tough to crack for all the reasons you mentioned. Better yet, all your opponent's multi-damage weapons would be wasted as you fill the board with 250 Tau bodies, 240 of which dump out 3 S5 shots within 18". Vehicle and flyer spam would be bad news for you, though.
Why? I can't fit appropriate AT into the other 1000-1200 pts of the list? Also, fire warriors in triple tap range average 42points per wound vs T7/3+... that's comparable to most dedicated AT platforms.
Kdash wrote: So, the question is... Is a Riptide, with HBC, SMS, Target Lock and ATS worth the rumoured 309 points?
It probably is, I think. It's got decent firepower for its price, though arguably not great durability.
The Ion accelerator option is also pretty interesting. It doesn't really need an ATS, which allows for other options in that support slot. I think you probably want SMS with the HBC and something else - probably fusion - with the IA.
The cost is still very high. It remains to be seen whether they are worth it.
190 points for 4 lascannon shots at 3+, t7 s+ 11 W, 285 for 3 w more 1 better armor, worse bs base, for statistically still less damage (3.5 shots still at bs 3,) s8 , or 3.5 shots at same str 3 set damage, but each 1 is another mortal wound, or nova 1 guaranteed wound for heavy 6 s8 d3 damage ( so 12 potential damage) or still mortal wound for each 1 rolled 6 shots of s9 set 3 dmage..
its damage potential is slightly more consistent, but its max is lower, harder to 50% obscure, will hurt itself rather often, and chew through cp if using that strategem. i'd say 100 riptides vs ~120 quad-las preds, las preds will take the victory
and real talk for points it would be closer to 135 las preds vs 100 riptides
In play I think you’ll find different results. I’d put fusion on an IA tide and advance it towards the predators, using its shield to get a 3++. The fusion blasters make sense as the SMS is pretty weak without the ATS.
The fly keyword makes a vast difference for shooty units, because they can’t be locked. Instead, they can lock enemies like predators down in cc.
Predators are pretty good in a straight firefight, but less so on a board with objectives, terrain and so on. They aren’t at all flexible, while riptides are extremely flexible.
It may well be the case that the HBC version is better. I don’t think it is against hard targets though. The IA wounds tanks twice as easily, for 50% more damage - which would make the two guns do exactly the same average damage - but then the IA has better ap. but then on the other hand it does cost more, it’s more specialised in what it can target and it hurts itself.
Looking at that, to be honest I think I prefer the HBC tide. The IA version is viable I think, but I’m not convinced that it’s enough better at killing tanks compared to the HBC to make up for its cost and hurting itself. That other support system it can take might make up some of the difference but I’m not sure. A velocity tracker might well be a strong option, since it’ll be very helpful against Eldar stuff and often remove the risk of overcharging.
Another consideration is if there’s something else that does the IA tide’s job better than it does. Coldstar commanders with 4 fusion blasters would be pretty compelling, for example - all the more so if you could give one of them fusion blades.
So let’s see. I think it’s too soon to write off the IA tide, but there is certainly a case building against them.
A Town Called Malus wrote: As someone who played Tau since 4th edition, reading this line on the Warhammer Community Bork'an article made me cry:
For many, the Riptide Battlesuit is the iconic T’au Empire unit...
"I was there, Gandalf. 3000 years ago. I was there the day skimmers were nerfed. I was there the day the strength of Fish of Fury failed."
Ahh 4th edition. I remember being on the top row at the UKGT with nothing but Ulthwe and Iron Warriors as far as the eye could see. I’d built a list that countered that meta pretty well - not actually featuring any fish. It was easier than facing rhino rush in 3rd.
To be fair, riptide wings were a common sight in 7th. Lots of people probably do see them as an iconic Tau unit. I’m willing to bet the model has been out for more years than we’d like to think.
MilkmanAl wrote: I'm somewhat inclined to go pure Borkan Fire warrior spam. S5 has you wounding anything on at least 5s, so you're a threat to any target. That composition is far from optimal, but it's probably pretty tough to crack for all the reasons you mentioned. Better yet, all your opponent's multi-damage weapons would be wasted as you fill the board with 250 Tau bodies, 240 of which dump out 3 S5 shots within 18". Vehicle and flyer spam would be bad news for you, though.
Why? I can't fit appropriate AT into the other 1000-1200 pts of the list? Also, fire warriors in triple tap range average 42points per wound vs T7/3+... that's comparable to most dedicated AT platforms.
Please don't misunderstand; I think Fire Warrior spam is going to be a strong option for us. I just meant the balls-to-the wall Fire Warrior approach with literally 250 of them on the board plus some support elements might be a little sub-optimal against lists like DA flyer spam or the wall of Plagueburst Crawlers that showed up to LVO. You need 27 shots just to take 1 wound off a PBC, so if there are 10 of them, that's bad news bears. Anything short of that, though, is probably going to have a tough time dealing with that volume of shots. Even eldar stacked -hit will fold once your horde works it's way within 12", and you could even go so far as to deep strike in some drones for early harrassing, assuming the rumor that they can DS pans out.
Now all I have to decide is how motivated I am to buy and assemble another 100 FW :p
I think that Tau Sept might be equally good for spamming Fire Warriors. If you think of 240 dudes in tight-ish layered groups of 60. The overwatch each group puts out hitting on a 5+ is pretty sick (60 hits w/in 18" with a Pulse Drone). That will evaporate a unit of 25 Bloodletters or 13 MEQs before they even swing. That's pretty good defense against getting whacked in HtH. There are some hard counters and you need to worry about sacrifice charges, but I think it's got potential.
That list built with either Sept throws 720 S5 shots with good range. That's a lot of dakka gentlemen. (That's 26 wounds put on PBCs for everyone following along at home). Add in Darkstrider and the +1 wound stratagem and you're rolling.
You can do a lot with high volumes of shots, but you can't really take out tough vehicles with lots of saves and good wounds. AP makes a massive difference.
I think the best way to fill out the troops choices for a brigade might actually be 6x5 breachers in 3 devilfish. They'd have the durability to survive an alpha strike and could hit back very hard - while also being able to advance towards stuff.
If you actually were going for a huge number of fire warriors then I think the trait to be in cover unless you moved might be the best option.
Seeing a rumor on ATT that coldstars can now take up to 4 weapons (no cib though). Does this mitigate the commander restrictions? Having 3-4 fusion blasters that can move 40" a turn sounds amazing to me.
FirePainter wrote: Seeing a rumor on ATT that coldstars can now take up to 4 weapons (no cib though). Does this mitigate the commander restrictions? Having 3-4 fusion blasters that can move 40" a turn sounds amazing to me.
If true, that's a game-changer. Even at 1 per detachment, you can have 3 of those guys and a couple Y'Vahras hopping around amidst a drone swarm nuking hard targets at will. With 3 Commanders, and 2 Y'Vahras, you would have about 700 pts to throw at FW and drones - definitely enough to get a battalion or two locked down plus the forward drone support you'd need.
Mandragola wrote: You can do a lot with high volumes of shots, but you can't really take out tough vehicles with lots of saves and good wounds. AP makes a massive difference.
What's that old adage? Quantity has a quality all it's own. I agree that AP is a key component, but with enough volume, even AP- guns become reliable against pretty much any target, especially S5 guns that wound pretty much anything on a 5+ at worst.
Mandragola wrote: I think the best way to fill out the troops choices for a brigade might actually be 6x5 breachers in 3 devilfish. They'd have the durability to survive an alpha strike and could hit back very hard - while also being able to advance towards stuff..
In order to define 'hard' I think you'd want to compare the actual numbers against a variety of targets, and in the context of actual play, taking into account aura buffs, stratagems, and the like. Same goes for 'survivable' - compare wound totals, toughness and save. The Devilfish costs about as much as, what 16 fire warriors? So it's essentially comparing the Fish and 12 Breachers to 28 Fire Warriors. I haven't done the math, but I suspect it's not an awful comparison. Mobility is a big plus, but I suspect the dakka isn't quite as good. The Fish is objectively more survivable at T7 with 12 wounds, but that really depends on what kind of T7 target saturation you have. If there aren't better targets for AT weapons that fish are going to get hosed pretty good.
It'll be interesting to see what kind of builds we see when we have the whole codex to work with.
Ok so I take one interesting thing from that update: the high-intensity plasma rifle does 2 damage.
So my next question is, who can take a high-intensity plasma rifle? Because I want them on everything please.
Farsight continues to be kind of "meh". Fusion blades are ok, but it's annoying (albeit reasonable!) that you can only have 2 attacks.
I'm not sure what to make of the CNC node yet. Actually, if plasma rifles are really going up to D2, then I can see a case for it. Imagine dropping in 9 guys all with triple plasma, using the rumoured farsight strat to give them +1 to hit, and giving them rerolls to wound as well. Stuff would die, but I'm not sure it would be worth the price you'd pay.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Also would seem to indicate that our plasma weaponry is staying S6 with no overcharge option.
So the Imperium plasma still got buffed twice(no longer gets hot and potential for overcharge) whilst ours stayed the same as before.
I'm not so sure (But in the same vein, I'm also not too hopeful considering the change here.)
Farsights plasma rifle is now unique as it's represented as a high intensity, boasting +6" range, -1 additional AP and 2 damage instead of 1. a normal t'au plasma to mee seems like it might just get buffed to 30"
And with this up, I'm officially boycotting any Tau product until further notice. not buying the codex, the cards, any models, or anything that relates to them.
Because I guess my two-commander in a battalion army that I played from freaking 5th is now illegal.
About 5k army, 4 different HQs And I can't field a legal battalion because of an idiotic restriction that makes no sense.
BoomWolf wrote: And with this up, I'm officially boycotting any Tau product until further notice. not buying the codex, the cards, any models, or anything that relates to them.
Because I guess my two-commander in a battalion army that I played from freaking 5th is now illegal.
About 5k army, 4 different HQs And I can't field a legal battalion because of an idiotic restriction that makes no sense.
not that it helps... but for the cost of 2x 5 man fire warrior squads, you could run a patrol detachment for the second commander. That's what I'll be doing.
(Seriously though, as someone who usually only fielded 1 normal commander and a Coldstar commander And occasionally Farsight too, Long live Farsight Enclaves , I feel your pain... this is literally just patching up a problem that should really be dealt with properly in the codex.)
BoomWolf wrote: And with this up, I'm officially boycotting any Tau product until further notice. not buying the codex, the cards, any models, or anything that relates to them.
Because I guess my two-commander in a battalion army that I played from freaking 5th is now illegal.
About 5k army, 4 different HQs And I can't field a legal battalion because of an idiotic restriction that makes no sense.
So get a Fireblade or an Ethereal and go crazy. Nearly everyone else is having to adapt to the new edition, so you can too. Run 2 battalions with a Commander and a Fireblade/Ethereal in each. I'm probably going to do exactly that, or maybe a Brigade.
Two broadside configurations I've been heavily considering;
Rail/SMS/Target Lock
and
HYMP/SMS/ATS
Both are about 45 points per damage vs T7/3+
Rail is 56 PPD vs T8/3+ compared to 62 PPD for HYMP
Rail averages .8 +.8 unsaved wounds vs T3/3+ (So likely 2 dead reapers)
HYMP averages 2.2 + 1.3 (So likely 3 dead reapers)
Which makes rails less cost effective than max range pulse rifles, and missiles only slightly more effective.
I'm not seeing any option for cost efficient long range anti-infantry shooting. SMS are nice because they ignore LOS and cover, so for ITC they can chip away at reapers, but they're not likely to do lots of damage.
Gun drones dropping next to a drone controller stealth suit or dropping with a commander are still likely our most cost efficient anti-infantry, aside from double/triple shot pulse rifles.
BoomWolf wrote: And with this up, I'm officially boycotting any Tau product until further notice. not buying the codex, the cards, any models, or anything that relates to them.
Because I guess my two-commander in a battalion army that I played from freaking 5th is now illegal.
About 5k army, 4 different HQs And I can't field a legal battalion because of an idiotic restriction that makes no sense.
So get a Fireblade or an Ethereal and go crazy. Nearly everyone else is having to adapt to the new edition, so you can too. Run 2 battalions with a Commander and a Fireblade/Ethereal in each. I'm probably going to do exactly that, or maybe a Brigade.
Alternatively, just e-mail them to ask for the change in the FAQ. You have 2 weeks, get to campaigning. I e-mailed them already.
Telling me to "just play multiple patrols" is hardly solving anything.
Because that means that for example, if I want a third hammerhead, I need a third patrol, so 6 troops and 3 HQs, unlike anyone else with 3 troops and 2 hq for 3 HS slots.
Because that means I have minimum CPs, as patrols are not worth CPs, even when fielding the troop and HQ count of a godamn brigade.
Amusing how GW are so amazingly idiotic that they are trying to actually SELL commanders in the article while saying "BTW, you can't realistically use more than one"
I was honestly planning to get farsight, and maybe another coldstar, before the info started dropping.
Once it did, Its painfully obvious that I shouldn't.
It is the most stupid update. Rather than buff other units to a fair level (commanders were spammed because they were the only good unit) they Nerf them into the ground. Standard GW.
BoomWolf wrote: Telling me to "just play multiple patrols" is hardly solving anything.
It is when your complaint is "I want to field multiple Commanders and not much else".
Because that means that for example, if I want a third hammerhead, I need a third patrol, so 6 troops and 3 HQs, unlike anyone else with 3 troops and 2 hq for 3 HS slots.
Or if you want 3 Hammerheads, run a Spearhead--1x Commander and 3x Hammerheads?
Because that means I have minimum CPs, as patrols are not worth CPs, even when fielding the troop and HQ count of a godamn brigade.
Amusing how GW are so amazingly idiotic that they are trying to actually SELL commanders in the article while saying "BTW, you can't realistically use more than one"
I was honestly planning to get farsight, and maybe another coldstar, before the info started dropping.
Once it did, Its painfully obvious that I shouldn't.
Thank the people who spammed Commanders as buffbots.
I mean, realistically, you now are getting to feel like Scion players who had Command Squads(not counting the twerps who ran 4x Plasma/Melta Scion Squads) bulking out their Elite slots for running anything aside from Patrol Detachments.
It sucks that you're getting punished for someone else's garbage. It really does. But it's been happening and will keep happening as long as GW is playing catch up to ITC and other non-by the book events.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Also would seem to indicate that our plasma weaponry is staying S6 with no overcharge option.
So the Imperium plasma still got buffed twice(no longer gets hot and potential for overcharge) whilst ours stayed the same as before.
It's to get us buying all the new fancy ion weapons.
Also I was looking at the fusion blades and it just says a model with 2 fusion blasters so could we get that in a riptide or ghostkeels?
You mean the fancy ion weapons that you can only buy one of, in a box for a model you're only allowed one of per detachment? Awesome marketing technique.
I'm pretty sure relics are limited to characters only, except where explicitly stated otherwise. I'm afraid our riptides and ghostkeels won't start carving things up with fusion any time soon.
Shoot forgot the character limit. Darn would have been fun.
And yes I mean the ion weapons that are better than all other options and very limited in supply from GW. GW marketing has never been good with things like this. Why change now
. I think their best use is blocking charges.
I might prefer more of a backpack look, straps and whatnot, but that's doable with greenstuff. I've seen a couple of jetpack bits from 3rd parties that might work too. Thanks! After seeing those I'm pretty sure I want to convert my own from Tau parts. One way or another they'll get into my army.
Good lord is it brutal.
