TiberiusHecktor wrote: Im actually leaning more towards broadsides, i know theyre expensive and everyones been complaining about them, but thanks to saviour protocols they do at least have quite a bit of staying power if you park some drones next to them. Plus you can get some cheapish missile drones.
On that note, i noticed in the broadside description it says 'The unit may be accompanied by up to 2 missile drones' Does that mean you can only ever take 2 missile drones regardless of how many broadsides in the unit, or 2 drones each per broadside like how it used to be?
Yeeaaaaahh, im definitely going to take one of those and a Fusion commander but any more than that feels a bit cheesy. I want some backfield blasting to sit with my missile commander when he calls kauyon
TiberiusHecktor wrote: At first i felt really confident about the idea of taking Longstrike and a hammerhead pal, but the more i think about it im not so sure. Hammerheads seem very killable and there isnt really a way to reliably keep them alive.
T7 W13 and no invulns, its really only going to take 3 lascannons to put it down. Everyones going to target longstrike first and then your second hammerheads not looking so hot.
Hmm I forgot about how characters with 10+ wounds could be targeted regardless of who was closest. That's yet another nail in the coffin of hammerheads.
To be fair it will take a lot more than 3 lascannon shots to kill a hammerhead, but it's still useless. The gun just doesn't do anything like enough.
I think that you are allowed to take the save from a shield generator, then bounce the wound to a drone if you fail the save. It doesn't really make sense that a drone would suffer a mortal wound unless the suits have had a chance to roll a save. Honestly neither makes sense and the logical thing would be for the drones to take it at the point when you got hit - so you rolled to wound and save against the drone that the shot had actually hit - but whatever.
Nope. The Way Savior Protocol is worded, the Allocation of the wound to the Drone unit occurs before saves are taken, so you never test against the Shield Generator unless you're willing to suffer the damage on that Shield Generator unit.
So anyway my unit of 9 might feature 5 guys with triple plasma and 4 with dual fusion, and with a VT, DC and a couple of shield generators spread around. Alternatively it might be that you'd run one suit with the DC and VT. So maybe 6 triple plasma suits and 2 triple fusion, plus the unarmed Shas'vre with assorted support systems. Then 18 drones for them to pass wounds to.
The major weakness would be if the enemy attacked the drones first.
That's a lot of points. A lot of firepower, but a LOT of points.
I'm getting over 550 points in the Suits alone.
Its a helluva alpha strike (though you'll need a Homing Beacon if you want the full benefit of fusions), but does it really have enough firepower to not be wiped by the response due a 550+ point enemy with massive firepower and 18 Gun Drones (putting out ~36 Pulse hits a round) absorbing anti-heavy-infantry fire?
My initial thought is that I'd always rather just have a Commander and save my Elite slots for other purposes, but that sort of massive alpha strike is tempting...
Ok so shield generators and shield drones are both equally pointless. Useful to know. Looks like only the stormsurge should buy a shield - and I guess maybe a coldstar or (just possibly) a ghostkeel.
My (theoretical) 9-man crisis team does indeed cost a hell of a lot of points - though less than a unit of 3 broadsides. This is partly deliberate, to reduce the number of drops you have, and partly to spread buffs around a bit. A velocity tracker looks like a waste of a slot in a unit of 3, but less so in a unit of 9. A drone controller that buffs 18 gun drones is pretty efficient. Not sure it's actually good, but it's kind of interesting. Charging either the 18 drones or the 9 suits will be unattractive ,given the overwatch you'll face and the few actual hits they might do back in melee. I might even run shadowsun and have her command link drone make the unit reroll 1s - or I could just mix in a few marker drones.
I keep switching between the idea of triple plasma or two CIBs with ATS. I think on the whole the CIBs look better. The big problem then becomes modelling the damn things. Anyone have ideas?
I'm interested to hear people talking about charging stuff to harass it with ghostkeels. That's exactly what I imagined they'd be good for. There have been a few times where I've won games with my Tau by physically blocking enemy models (most memorably a slaanesh DP with siren and no wings, which I walled in with 3 hammerheads) to keep them from killing important stuff or reaching objectives. It looks like this kind of thing is going to be key to winning in 8th.
Yeeaaaaahh, im definitely going to take one of those and a Fusion commander but any more than that feels a bit cheesy. I want some backfield blasting to sit with my missile commander when he calls kauyon
To be fair, go balls deep on cheese.
There just isn't the force multipliers available to really go nuts, with markerlights (Yes you can get BS4 to go to BS2+ re-rollable with the commander and 5 markerlights...but thats difficult/one-off!), lack of easy army buffs and especially the lack of any psychic powers including Smite, we're at a handicap by default.
I don't think Hammerheads are to be trashed already, and especially not Longstrike. The beauty of Longstrike, and what you have to keep in mind, is that he takes a HQ slot, which is awesome either if you want more support slots or if you don't know how to fill you HQ ones.
Haechi wrote: I don't think Hammerheads are to be trashed already, and especially not Longstrike. The beauty of Longstrike, and what you have to keep in mind, is that he takes a HQ slot, which is awesome either if you want more support slots or if you don't know how to fill you HQ ones.
Sure, it's kind of cool that he's a HQ. You can have an army of hammerheads. But on the other hand, we've got a lot of great HQ options, from the excellent commanders to the cheap and pretty good fireblades and Darkstrider. We don't need another.
Actually what we lack is good heavy support choices, which is somewhat ironic for a shooty army. The main thing stopping me from fielding a brigade is the need to fill those heavy slots.
I agree with you and like most Tau players, I tend to be lured towards infantry and mechs with them, but I think a full armored battalion of Tau could be very good. Like, 4+ Hammerheads and Longstrike. I'm not the one who's going to test it but it could be strong.
Droneport - loaded with four marker drones, a rail rifle pathfinder squad and a cadre fireblade. While I am almost never going to bother trying to get more than one or two markerlights (really gw?) - a single markerlight has proven its worth to me time, and time again.
The droneport gives badly needed protection to pathfinders, and the drone rules are awesome BS2+ drones. was very useful.
This is clever.
Thanks
about being clever, on the the remora's I was talking about
We often get preoccupied with math hammer and what it good at "putting out wounds" - while this is certainly useful - it is more useful when comparing things that are similar (in range, ap, etc.) and less valuable when other factors come into play.
For example, if you are saying "when an enemy unit of X Toughness and Y wounds and Z save is the only unit at 20 inches, which weapon is better".
That is a very concrete example. In a real game however, it is rarely like that.
It is more like;
The termangatns are swarming 12 inches away from my front lines, the exocrine is killing my suits from across the table, the trygon is in my face, and the broodlord out of line of sight on the other side of the table is about to take that objective after he used smite on my two firewarriors.
As good as the gun drone math is against the termagants (or maybe even the trygon) they are useless against the exocrine behind the lines (where rippers prevent deep strike - remember, the other player is supposedly clever too) and also I need to get another unit against the flyrant to contest the objective.
The missile pod or rail rifle are useful against the flyrant or the exocrine. Fusion blasters with marker support are a good way to reliably deal with the trygon, and the remora drone can contest (or take) the objective out of line of site.
You can't castle in a corner when the objectives are all over the map - a smart player will play to the mission and not throw units into your drone grinder (if you are not playing against smart players - then just about anything in this thread has less impact).
This is why in a previous thread I made comments about the remora and piranha - overall tau lack mobility and the ability to most a fast unit into position and park it there (or near in cover). Flyers (the sunshark, razorshark, barracuda, etc.) can take objectives at the end of a turn - but they have to move.
Tau dont' have jet bikes, or teleport homers on our back objectives or teleport psychic powers - so we have to look to other means when we have to maneuver very quickly. The remora is a flyer without the limits of supersonic. it can turn any angle, and get all over the map around and behind cover (I love smart missiles but their cost is a bit high this edition, and them being less on the field they can't take or contest objectives either) and even take or contest objectives. no, the remora is not incredibly durable - but ironically, I have found since they only have burst cannons they are usually not considered a bit threat, and thus lesser on your opponents target priority.
Even better, the piranha has a decent speed (not great) but decent - and it can camp an objective and it takes more than a token effort to remove it (a dedicated effort can remove even a stormsurge). Even better, the drones can leave the piranha and now you have THREE models next to the objective - (taking objectives in 8th has to do with model count).
Finally - people keep asking "what is the best list?" - honestly, we DON"T want that.
We want a bunch of lists that are viable in all armies so we are not facing the same thing again and again. yes, some units will do better in certain roles - that is fine - and overall 8th is a lot better in this regard.
Play the game, and be smart - I won my last game not because of the math - but because I out smarted the other player - and you will too.
I keep switching between the idea of triple plasma or two CIBs with ATS. I think on the whole the CIBs look better. The big problem then becomes modelling the damn things. Anyone have ideas?
I think statistically CIB are better against all targets except marines at <12" range. The sticking point is the additional cost, and that is remedied by the ATS selection over a third CIB.
I'm using shortened burst cannons with additional gubbins stuck on. They definitely still look like burst cannons, but without the extended barrels, they're different enough to avoid confusion. Conveniently I also don't ever run burst cannons on my suits. The Reddog minis pieces look similar to the parts that come in the commander box. I've bought their Missile Pods before (for converting the oldschool XV88s to HYMP) and they were really good quality and a good service. Obviously those bits are a fair cost though and the converted burst cannons provide a much cheaper alternative.
What're people finding to be the best loadout for crisis suit teams?
Also, between broadsides, R'Varnas, Y'Vahras, normal Riptides, and a Stormsurge, what's the best to fill out a FSE list with? It's real strange that these are all around the same points now.
Yeeaaaaahh, im definitely going to take one of those and a Fusion commander but any more than that feels a bit cheesy. I want some backfield blasting to sit with my missile commander when he calls kauyon
To be fair, go balls deep on cheese.
There just isn't the force multipliers available to really go nuts, with markerlights (Yes you can get BS4 to go to BS2+ re-rollable with the commander and 5 markerlights...but thats difficult/one-off!), lack of easy army buffs and especially the lack of any psychic powers including Smite, we're at a handicap by default.
I'm thinking at fielding 2 Y'vahras at 1500pts
Someone brings two Yvharas at 1500, I won't even take my stuff out of the bag. Congrats you win, anyone else want a game?
This is why they hate tau - because players did this with riptide wing. This type of playstyle is why people are happy our markers got nerfed and the riptide is useless. I did not play riptide wing or use grav on my marines in the last edition.
I barely earned a tough a win last night in a game (8 vp to 6) in a brutal close game with no cheesy units on either side. It was exceptionally satisfying.
If I want an easy win, If I want to "win" like that, I will arm wrestle my 3yr old.
Don't be that guy, don't ruin the game. Also, the fact that forgeworld can't write rules worth a @#&^%# is not an excuse.
So I tried my Tau first time this weekend, and I have to say I am not dissapointed.
We already know commanders are nasty, that's why I took only 1 Fusion Commander. It took out one of those large Nids Monsters in 1 Turn and I dealt a few wounds more than needed. IMHO more than 1 Commander is for tryhards that don't want their enemies to have fun aswell ;-) (the same kind of people who played 3 riptides)
Ghostkeels and Stealth suits are awesome. The can be set up ahead, preventing first turn charges and are actually quite tough if played right. The damage output is very good aswell. -1 to hit is also very annoying in close combat and made me escape my opponents Hive Tyrant a few times.
CIB Crisis were ok, but not great for their points costs. Couldn't take many wounds off of my target (another big bug) and got annihilated next turn by a Trygon+Genestealer Combo. IMHO Plasma + Gundrones or Fusion Suits are better, depending on the mission.
The Riptide did well. (HBC, SMS, ATS and TL) It's very tanky, fast and quite deadly.
A few markerlights here and there for the reroll 1s Bonus are all you need. The ignore cover bonus is icing on the cake.
Overall I think we are in a good state. The only thing that kinda annoys me is, that we have only our shooting phase to do stuff, while the enemy has psychic and melee. The jumping simply gave us something to do in the assault phase :-P Fly is very powerfull though, nothing can lock me in CC or charge to hide in CC
Asura Varuna wrote: Was there ever a consensus on whether Y'vahra could fire one or both of its Nova Charged weapons?
Yeeaaaaahh, im definitely going to take one of those and a Fusion commander but any more than that feels a bit cheesy. I want some backfield blasting to sit with my missile commander when he calls kauyon
To be fair, go balls deep on cheese.
There just isn't the force multipliers available to really go nuts, with markerlights (Yes you can get BS4 to go to BS2+ re-rollable with the commander and 5 markerlights...but thats difficult/one-off!), lack of easy army buffs and especially the lack of any psychic powers including Smite, we're at a handicap by default.
I'm thinking at fielding 2 Y'vahras at 1500pts
Someone brings two Yvharas at 1500, I won't even take my stuff out of the bag. Congrats you win, anyone else want a game?
This is why they hate tau - because players did this with riptide wing. This type of playstyle is why people are happy our markers got nerfed and the riptide is useless. I did not play riptide wing or use grav on my marines in the last edition.
I barely earned a tough a win last night in a game (8 vp to 6) in a brutal close game with no cheesy units on either side. It was exceptionally satisfying.
If I want an easy win, If I want to "win" like that, I will arm wrestle my 3yr old.
Don't be that guy, don't ruin the game. Also, the fact that forgeworld can't write rules worth a @#&^%# is not an excuse.
Hmm I think I disagree.
The game is now inherently massively more balanced.
Imperial Knight Vs. A storm surge or a pair of riptides? It is a laughable comparison because our 'heavy hitters' are just awful.
The use of the riptide wing, with the double-tap rule, combined with Eldar Jetbike Pyskers... that was the bad points of 7ed.
Droneport - loaded with four marker drones, a rail rifle pathfinder squad and a cadre fireblade. While I am almost never going to bother trying to get more than one or two markerlights (really gw?) - a single markerlight has proven its worth to me time, and time again.
The droneport gives badly needed protection to pathfinders, and the drone rules are awesome BS2+ drones. was very useful.
This is clever.
Thanks
about being clever, on the the remora's I was talking about
We often get preoccupied with math hammer and what it good at "putting out wounds" - while this is certainly useful - it is more useful when comparing things that are similar (in range, ap, etc.) and less valuable when other factors come into play.
For example, if you are saying "when an enemy unit of X Toughness and Y wounds and Z save is the only unit at 20 inches, which weapon is better".
That is a very concrete example. In a real game however, it is rarely like that.
It is more like;
The termangatns are swarming 12 inches away from my front lines, the exocrine is killing my suits from across the table, the trygon is in my face, and the broodlord out of line of sight on the other side of the table is about to take that objective after he used smite on my two firewarriors.
As good as the gun drone math is against the termagants (or maybe even the trygon) they are useless against the exocrine behind the lines (where rippers prevent deep strike - remember, the other player is supposedly clever too) and also I need to get another unit against the flyrant to contest the objective.
The missile pod or rail rifle are useful against the flyrant or the exocrine. Fusion blasters with marker support are a good way to reliably deal with the trygon, and the remora drone can contest (or take) the objective out of line of site.
You can't castle in a corner when the objectives are all over the map - a smart player will play to the mission and not throw units into your drone grinder (if you are not playing against smart players - then just about anything in this thread has less impact).
This is why in a previous thread I made comments about the remora and piranha - overall tau lack mobility and the ability to most a fast unit into position and park it there (or near in cover). Flyers (the sunshark, razorshark, barracuda, etc.) can take objectives at the end of a turn - but they have to move.
Tau dont' have jet bikes, or teleport homers on our back objectives or teleport psychic powers - so we have to look to other means when we have to maneuver very quickly. The remora is a flyer without the limits of supersonic. it can turn any angle, and get all over the map around and behind cover (I love smart missiles but their cost is a bit high this edition, and them being less on the field they can't take or contest objectives either) and even take or contest objectives. no, the remora is not incredibly durable - but ironically, I have found since they only have burst cannons they are usually not considered a bit threat, and thus lesser on your opponents target priority.
Even better, the piranha has a decent speed (not great) but decent - and it can camp an objective and it takes more than a token effort to remove it (a dedicated effort can remove even a stormsurge). Even better, the drones can leave the piranha and now you have THREE models next to the objective - (taking objectives in 8th has to do with model count).
Finally - people keep asking "what is the best list?" - honestly, we DON"T want that.
We want a bunch of lists that are viable in all armies so we are not facing the same thing again and again. yes, some units will do better in certain roles - that is fine - and overall 8th is a lot better in this regard.
Play the game, and be smart - I won my last game not because of the math - but because I out smarted the other player - and you will too.
Bit miffed as I'd been talking about putting pathfinders in tidewall things like one page earlier, but glad people like the idea. I think there's a case for sticking two pathfinder squads in a wall with attached round thingy, as you can then put both of them down as one drop. I'd just add more pathfinders instead of the shenanigans to get a fireblade and drones with 2+ to hit. The drones are too vulnerable so you're better off just adding dudes to the squads. They can then either light stuff up or shoot it with their carbines. Basically 4 marker drones and a fireblade cost 85 points to get about the same number of markerlight hits that 40 points worth of pathfinders would give you - from safely inside their tidewall thingy.
Having stuff that can zoom around and grab objectives is key to winning 40k, especially in Maelstrom missions. Ideally, these things would also help us to win games by killing things.
We've got a few good options not mentioned here. Personally I think the Coldstar Commander is a good option. Give him 2 options from shield generator, ATS and Target Lock and he can zoom around 50" a turn, shooting things up. Enemy can only kill him if he's the nearest thing.
Remoras are an option too. They are shootier than the commander, but feel overpriced. That might not be the case in reality, given how good they are at grabbing objectives. They'd be pretty hard for some armies to get rid of. Annoying that their rules are missing anything about what happens if they advance. Most other flyers go an extra 20" or so.
The good thing about remoras is their 36" range. They can grab objectives and still shoot at things.
This is what I love about the new edition - no one single list or unit (well, except for yhvara wing....).
If you like the pathfinders as markers in your drone port, go for it!
you may be right regarding points of drones vs. pathfinders.
My personal preference is to use the pathfinders for their railrifles (or ion, use to your own taste) as I find the 4+ marker lights not reliable.
Yes, in numbers the "average" might be reliable - for for any one single shooting event, I personally like the reliability of the 2+ from the fireblade and the marker drones. Also, you are correct that the enemy could shoot at the disembarked drones - I find if I have distracted them with other units this is rarely the case - however an intelligent and disciplined player would certainly give 2+ markers a high priority.
My (theoretical) 9-man crisis team does indeed cost a hell of a lot of points - though less than a unit of 3 broadsides. This is partly deliberate, to reduce the number of drops you have, and partly to spread buffs around a bit. A velocity tracker looks like a waste of a slot in a unit of 3, but less so in a unit of 9. A drone controller that buffs 18 gun drones is pretty efficient. Not sure it's actually good, but it's kind of interesting. Charging either the 18 drones or the 9 suits will be unattractive ,given the overwatch you'll face and the few actual hits they might do back in melee. I might even run shadowsun and have her command link drone make the unit reroll 1s - or I could just mix in a few marker drones.
I keep switching between the idea of triple plasma or two CIBs with ATS. I think on the whole the CIBs look better. The big problem then becomes modelling the damn things. Anyone have ideas?
Well, I'd say mix and match rather than do all 9 with the same weapons. Since you need 9 Crisis Suits to pull this off, you'll have 9 CIB, possibly one more from the Commander model you'll likely have. So you can make 5 CIB + ATS, and 3 triple Plasma, and put something else on the last suit (triple fusion?).
Point being, if you're quibbling on what is the best loadout, then either one is probably decent, even if it's not the best. I'm looking at the same dilemma given I haven't assembled any of my 6 Crisis Suits yet, but I'll probably do 3 CIS+ATS first, then once I get a 3rd get started I'll do some triple plasma and some triple flamers, though I may have enough old bits around to do the triple plasmas now.
John Prins wrote: I haven't assembled any of my 6 Crisis Suits yet, but I'll probably do 3 CIS+ATS first, then once I get a 3rd get started I'll do some triple plasma and some triple flamers, though I may have enough old bits around to do the triple plasmas now.
MAGNETS
If you've not built them yet, there's no excuse not to magnetise. Don't tie yourself into one loadout that could be made completely trash in the upcoming codex. Think of all those poor people who had heaps of deathrain suits, or worse still, those with really old suit models from before you could double down on a single weapon type. My models are still scarred from pulling apart old Fireknife configurations.
Fireknives...the only thing worse than not being able to take multiples of the same weapon on suits was that god-awful loadout-specific nomenclature. ATT should be ashamed they ever got that ball rolling. Shame!
As for taking multiple Y'Vahras, I'm not convinced that's such a terrible thing. I agree that people hated Tau last edition or the ease with which we could spam powerful units, but let's not extrapolate that to multiple powerful units=bad. Y'Vahras pack a huge punch, but they also cost 400 freaking points. They are nowhere near as durable as anything comparably costed and have to be up close in harm's way to do their dirty work. Drones mitigate their fragility some - potentially a lot if you get crafty - but they're still flimsy for the price.
My (theoretical) 9-man crisis team does indeed cost a hell of a lot of points - though less than a unit of 3 broadsides. This is partly deliberate, to reduce the number of drops you have, and partly to spread buffs around a bit. A velocity tracker looks like a waste of a slot in a unit of 3, but less so in a unit of 9. A drone controller that buffs 18 gun drones is pretty efficient. Not sure it's actually good, but it's kind of interesting. Charging either the 18 drones or the 9 suits will be unattractive ,given the overwatch you'll face and the few actual hits they might do back in melee. I might even run shadowsun and have her command link drone make the unit reroll 1s - or I could just mix in a few marker drones.
I keep switching between the idea of triple plasma or two CIBs with ATS. I think on the whole the CIBs look better. The big problem then becomes modelling the damn things. Anyone have ideas?
Well, I'd say mix and match rather than do all 9 with the same weapons. Since you need 9 Crisis Suits to pull this off, you'll have 9 CIB, possibly one more from the Commander model you'll likely have. So you can make 5 CIB + ATS, and 3 triple Plasma, and put something else on the last suit (triple fusion?).
Point being, if you're quibbling on what is the best loadout, then either one is probably decent, even if it's not the best. I'm looking at the same dilemma given I haven't assembled any of my 6 Crisis Suits yet, but I'll probably do 3 CIS+ATS first, then once I get a 3rd get started I'll do some triple plasma and some triple flamers, though I may have enough old bits around to do the triple plasmas now.
Sadly the crisis team kit comes with 0 CIBs. You get one per commander. I probably don't need 12 commanders, so outfitting 6 guys with dual CIB is a problem.
I think I might be better off trying to make my suits hold something that looks like a cyclic ion raker in both hands, like broadsides do. If it had three barrels I might be able to claim it was two or three CIBs as the mood took me. It would be a job to convert, but those railsides do look awesome. One day I keep meaning to figure out how to do 3d printing, so maybe this would provide the required impetus. Don't hold your breath.
I'm not really sure whether it's better to go with 2 CIBs and ATS or just go all in with 3 CIBs. I think the latter option looks more and more attractive, but I might have changed my mind again tomorrow. Maybe you mix triple plasma, triple CIB and double fusion guys. Maybe crisis suits are still rubbish.
davethepak wrote: This is what I love about the new edition - no one single list or unit (well, except for yhvara wing....).
If you like the pathfinders as markers in your drone port, go for it!
you may be right regarding points of drones vs. pathfinders.
My personal preference is to use the pathfinders for their railrifles (or ion, use to your own taste) as I find the 4+ marker lights not reliable.
Yes, in numbers the "average" might be reliable - for for any one single shooting event, I personally like the reliability of the 2+ from the fireblade and the marker drones. Also, you are correct that the enemy could shoot at the disembarked drones - I find if I have distracted them with other units this is rarely the case - however an intelligent and disciplined player would certainly give 2+ markers a high priority.
Shoot one target with Fireblade's or Darkstrider's markerlight on 2+ and then all of your Pathfinder can reroll 1's on their own markerlight shot. I think you might even be able to shoot your Pathfinder's markerlights one by one and use the reroll for the rest as soon as one hits.
Although there is nothing written that would prohibit ML benefiting from other ML and it is seemingly possible to roll each individual ML in a unit, in order for the subsequent ML to benefit from previously successful ML. This is not something I would personally do. It stinks of poor sportsmanship and looking to exploit the rules.
If you've not built them yet, there's no excuse not to magnetise. Don't tie yourself into one loadout that could be made completely trash in the upcoming codex. Think of all those poor people who had heaps of deathrain suits, or worse still, those with really old suit models from before you could double down on a single weapon type. My models are still scarred from pulling apart old Fireknife configurations.
I'm considering it, though I remember what a pain in the butt magnetizing Tyranids MCs was, and lining up magnets for perfect fitting on Tau suits is basically necessary. Right now I'm concentrating more on expanding infantry and using my old Crisis Suits, or at least my old Twin Fusion + Flamer suits. Given how generally slow I work, the issue may resolve itself before I get them up and going, if the rumor that Tau codex will be 3rd in line is correct.
As to Mandragola's point about CIB's not being in Crisis Suit teams, that's a mistake on my part. Oops. Remembering the old CIB, converting a Burst Cannon seems to be the best option. The old CIB was a 4 barrel affair, after all.
Hollow wrote: Still... using ML to benefit other ML strikes me as dodgy.
I totally understand and it didn't even come to my mind until someone else mentioned it. But MLs having a weapon profile and requiring to shoot means there's no reason for it to not be possible.
Hollow wrote: Although there is nothing written that would prohibit ML benefiting from other ML and it is seemingly possible to roll each individual ML in a unit, in order for the subsequent ML to benefit from previously successful ML. This is not something I would personally do. It stinks of poor sportsmanship and looking to exploit the rules.
You feel that way because it was against the rules in previous editions. Only Networked Markerlight allowed for it to benefit the unit shooting.
Well, they gutted the rules and removed any restrictions.
So its 100% legal to shoot your MLs 1 by 1, and it's 100% legal to start benefiting from reroll 1s as soon as a single dude in the squad manages a hit.
You can still get a squad of 5 pathfinders for less than the price of darkstrider or a fireblade. It's a bit odd to use either of them as a true source of ML hits.
Markerlights definitely do benefit subsequent markerlight attempts. I don't think it feels especially wrong that they should.
Mandragola wrote: You can still get a squad of 5 pathfinders for less than the price of darkstrider or a fireblade. It's a bit odd to use either of them as a true source of ML hits.
Markerlights definitely do benefit subsequent markerlight attempts. I don't think it feels especially wrong that they should.
Obviously if you get either of them it's for their abilities. But their shooting being nothing special, you might as well be firing a ML at 2+ to set up the next ML shots if you're looking for more ML buffs.
This is why they hate tau - because players did this with riptide wing. This type of playstyle is why people are happy our markers got nerfed and the riptide is useless. I did not play riptide wing or use grav on my marines in the last edition.
I barely earned a tough a win last night in a game (8 vp to 6) in a brutal close game with no cheesy units on either side. It was exceptionally satisfying.
If I want an easy win, If I want to "win" like that, I will arm wrestle my 3yr old.
Don't be that guy, don't ruin the game. Also, the fact that forgeworld can't write rules worth a @#&^%# is not an excuse.
Eeh, but a Y'vahra used to be 260-ish. It now costs more than 400p. Less spammable.
Also, as it is T7, any S4+ will hurt it at least at 5+. Before, you needed S5 to do the same. Which means basic troops will be able to kill it. Oh, and AP reduces its resistance (where before, without an AP2 weapon, the opponent shouldn't even bother firing something at it).
Finally, of course noone in his right mind will bring 3-4 Y'vahras in casual game, or he won't get any gaming. Same with other stuff in other armies.
Hollow wrote: Although there is nothing written that would prohibit ML benefiting from other ML and it is seemingly possible to roll each individual ML in a unit, in order for the subsequent ML to benefit from previously successful ML. This is not something I would personally do. It stinks of poor sportsmanship and looking to exploit the rules.
You feel that way because it was against the rules in previous editions. Only Networked Markerlight allowed for it to benefit the unit shooting.
Well, they gutted the rules and removed any restrictions.
So its 100% legal to shoot your MLs 1 by 1, and it's 100% legal to start benefiting from reroll 1s as soon as a single dude in the squad manages a hit.
Not really. It just feels as though I'd be exploiting a loophole, which I'm not interested in doing. You select the unit you want to shoot with, you nominate your target (or targets if you are splitting fire) then you roll the dice for equal profiles together. Unless GW comes out and specifically says they intended for ML to benefit from other ML, then I'm not going to play it that way, because I'm not TFG.
Hollow wrote: Although there is nothing written that would prohibit ML benefiting from other ML and it is seemingly possible to roll each individual ML in a unit, in order for the subsequent ML to benefit from previously successful ML. This is not something I would personally do. It stinks of poor sportsmanship and looking to exploit the rules.
You feel that way because it was against the rules in previous editions. Only Networked Markerlight allowed for it to benefit the unit shooting.
Well, they gutted the rules and removed any restrictions.
So its 100% legal to shoot your MLs 1 by 1, and it's 100% legal to start benefiting from reroll 1s as soon as a single dude in the squad manages a hit.
Not really. It just feels as though I'd be exploiting a loophole, which I'm not interested in doing. You select the unit you want to shoot with, you nominate your target (or targets if you are splitting fire) then you roll the dice for equal profiles together. Unless GW comes out and specifically says they intended for ML to benefit from other ML, then I'm not going to play it that way, because I'm not TFG.
I'm not TFG either
Everyone who does this is not a TFG or WAAC Implying that we are TFG or WAAC because we are following the rules correctly is insulting.
There is no exploit, and rolling dice of equal profiles together is an optional fast dice rule. Not a mandatory rule.
Hollow wrote: Although there is nothing written that would prohibit ML benefiting from other ML and it is seemingly possible to roll each individual ML in a unit, in order for the subsequent ML to benefit from previously successful ML. This is not something I would personally do. It stinks of poor sportsmanship and looking to exploit the rules.
You feel that way because it was against the rules in previous editions. Only Networked Markerlight allowed for it to benefit the unit shooting.
Well, they gutted the rules and removed any restrictions.
So its 100% legal to shoot your MLs 1 by 1, and it's 100% legal to start benefiting from reroll 1s as soon as a single dude in the squad manages a hit.
Not really. It just feels as though I'd be exploiting a loophole, which I'm not interested in doing. You select the unit you want to shoot with, you nominate your target (or targets if you are splitting fire) then you roll the dice for equal profiles together. Unless GW comes out and specifically says they intended for ML to benefit from other ML, then I'm not going to play it that way, because I'm not TFG.
I'm not TFG either
Everyone who does this is not a TFG or WAAC Implying that we are TFG or WAAC because we are following the rules correctly is insulting.
There is no exploit, and rolling dice of equal profiles together is an optional fast dice rule. Not a mandatory rule.
The only restriction I can see is assuming all shooting at the same unit happens at the same time, with regards to the universal split-fire ability.
So whilst you can split fire with bolters to X, plasmagun to Y and missile launcher to Z; you have to fire all bolters at X at once, before moving to a new target with a new group of weapons.
I don't have a rulebook to hand at the moment so I can't backup (or disprove) this line of reasoning with the rules...
Jadenim wrote: Yeah, you can't use marker lights to benefit marker lights (or any other shooting) within a squad, as you have to declare all firing at the start.
I see no reason why you can't use the benefit from a previous squad though; indeed that was allowed under the previous rules too.
I don't see how declaring all targets matters when you still shoot all the weapons one by one. It's allowed. Deal with it.
Fueli wrote: I don't see how declaring all targets matters when you still shoot all the weapons one by one. It's allowed. Deal with it.
Hmm.. might not be the best way to raise a good idea, as your point of view has a fair point.
I guess the idea boils down to the markerlights aren't applied to the target until the unit finishes shooting. Does the markerlight buff table rules refer to unit or models, about who gets the bonus. Still, whichever way I try to argue with myself, it's tricky!
Well, the fact is if you split fire with a Pathinder unit, and fail to kill a target with the first part of the split, you can't choose the other part to come back and shoot at the first target to try and finish it. So you'd think their fire capability can't be affected anymore.
The pathfinder thing is a positive benefit, so let's think with a negative one. What if you fire all of your Ghostkeel weapons (with a cyclic ion raker) to a target and decide to roll one by one, as it is allowed. You use the overcharged profile and the first roll you make is a 1. The Keel is already damaged and that 1 mortal wound brings it to the first damage threshold, reducing its BS to 5+. Would roll the other shots on a 5+? Would you roll the Burst canons on a 5+?
It is a tricky subject, and I don't really know the answer myself.
Mandragola wrote: You can still get a squad of 5 pathfinders for less than the price of darkstrider or a fireblade. It's a bit odd to use either of them as a true source of ML hits.
Markerlights definitely do benefit subsequent markerlight attempts. I don't think it feels especially wrong that they should.
Obviously if you get either of them it's for their abilities. But their shooting being nothing special, you might as well be firing a ML at 2+ to set up the next ML shots if you're looking for more ML buffs.
Thats a fair point actually. And given that the biggest advantage MLS give is probably that rerolls of 1s, maybe you don't need anything else.
Haechi wrote: Well, the fact is if you split fire with a Pathinder unit, and fail to kill a target with the first part of the split, you can't choose the other part to come back and shoot at the first target to try and finish it. So you'd think their fire capability can't be affected anymore.
The pathfinder thing is a positive benefit, so let's think with a negative one. What if you fire all of your Ghostkeel weapons (with a cyclic ion raker) to a target and decide to roll one by one, as it is allowed. You use the overcharged profile and the first roll you make is a 1. The Keel is already damaged and that 1 mortal wound brings it to the first damage threshold, reducing its BS to 5+. Would roll the other shots on a 5+? Would you roll the Burst canons on a 5+?
It is a tricky subject, and I don't really know the answer myself.
Can a single model shoot its multiple weapons (ranged attack) at multiple different units? Sorry if it's the case, trying to drag my mind out of 7ed.
The sad dark place of 7ed.. Praise be 8ed, it is truly for the Greater Good!
I'm not TFG either
Everyone who does this is not a TFG or WAAC Implying that we are TFG or WAAC because we are following the rules correctly is insulting.
There is no exploit, and rolling dice of equal profiles together is an optional fast dice rule. Not a mandatory rule.
I'm not specifically calling YOU anything, stop getting so worked up. I'm just saying that I think those who are trying to exploit (and that's what I think it is, others can disagree) the ML system, feel like they are trying real hard to be 'TFG'
Razerous.... That is indeed the case. A model can split fire.
As for the example above regarding the suit going Nova, therefore cause a would and a drop in the damage table, I'd say that all firing is resolved first, before the wound is applied. (Like the ML, all firing is completed before effects take place)
I'm not TFG either
Everyone who does this is not a TFG or WAAC Implying that we are TFG or WAAC because we are following the rules correctly is insulting.
There is no exploit, and rolling dice of equal profiles together is an optional fast dice rule. Not a mandatory rule.
I'm not specifically calling YOU anything, stop getting so worked up. I'm just saying that I think those who are trying to exploit (and that's what I think it is, others can disagree) the ML system, feel like they are trying real hard to be 'TFG'
Razerous.... That is indeed the case. A model can split fire.
As for the example above regarding the suit going Nova, therefore cause a would and a drop in the damage table, I'd say that all firing is resolved first, before the wound is applied. (Like the ML, all firing is completed before effects take place)
Shots happen as they are Shot and rolled
Which is why it is also 100% legal when you're taking wounds for...
Let's say you have 8 models standing in cover, and 2 models standing outside of cover
If you get shot and take 5 wounds, you're legally allowed to take your saves 2 by 2 (1 by 1) until the 2 models outside of cover die. (Let's say you fail the 1st 2)
After they die you can get the Cover Save bonus for the next 3 wounds.
Haechi wrote: The pathfinder thing is a positive benefit, so let's think with a negative one. What if you fire all of your Ghostkeel weapons (with a cyclic ion raker) to a target and decide to roll one by one, as it is allowed. You use the overcharged profile and the first roll you make is a 1. The Keel is already damaged and that 1 mortal wound brings it to the first damage threshold, reducing its BS to 5+. Would roll the other shots on a 5+? Would you roll the Burst canons on a 5+?
It is a tricky subject, and I don't really know the answer myself.
Note when firing CIB and CIR
It states 1 or more
meaning that you should roll all the dice for the weapon at the same time.
If you roll multiple 1s, you only take 1 mortal wound
This is important for Crisis Suits who might have multiple CIB You need to roll EACH WEAPON INDIVIDUALLY
If you lump all the shots together then you will take a mortal wound for EVERY 1 you roll
If you keep them separate then you don't suffer mortal wounds for any clumps of 1s you roll.
That model would take only a single Mortal Wound despite having rolled 3x 1s
CIB 1 - 1, 2, 2
CIB 2 - 1, 2, 2
CIB 3 - 1, 2, 2
That model would take 3 Mortal Wounds, since each weapon rolled a 1s
Nova wounds happen during the Movement phase, before any weapons are fired.
Plasma/Ion Weapons specifically state that the mortal wound happens after all this weapon's shot have been fired.
So yea, your burst cannon will be on 5s. Next time shoot it first.
At what points level are people thinking a Suoremacy Suit will start being worth it? The thing looks pretty great (especially with savior protocols) but at 1200 points I don't really see it being used under 3k point games?
Fueli wrote: I don't see how declaring all targets matters when you still shoot all the weapons one by one. It's allowed. Deal with it.
Hmm.. might not be the best way to raise a good idea, as your point of view has a fair point.
I guess the idea boils down to the markerlights aren't applied to the target until the unit finishes shooting. Does the markerlight buff table rules refer to unit or models, about who gets the bonus. Still, whichever way I try to argue with myself, it's tricky!
Markerlight is applied as soon as it hits. Page 48 Index Xenos 2. It benefits all T'au Empire models So if you have declared that half of your 10 man pathfinder unit will shoot their markerlights at that target you can roll them one at a time, and after the first hit the rest of the pathfinders shooting at that target gain the effect of the markerlight token. All this is based on the shooting rules in the rulebook, especially the Fast Rolling Dice on page 179, which tells us it's not mandatory to roll all of the same kind of attacks at the same time. It's optional.
Fueli wrote: I don't see how declaring all targets matters when you still shoot all the weapons one by one. It's allowed. Deal with it.
Hmm.. might not be the best way to raise a good idea, as your point of view has a fair point.
I guess the idea boils down to the markerlights aren't applied to the target until the unit finishes shooting. Does the markerlight buff table rules refer to unit or models, about who gets the bonus. Still, whichever way I try to argue with myself, it's tricky!
Markerlight is applied as soon as it hits. Page 48 Index Xenos 2. It benefits all T'au Empire models So if you have declared that half of your 10 man pathfinder unit will shoot their markerlights at that target you can roll them one at a time, and after the first hit the rest of the pathfinders shooting at that target gain the effect of the markerlight token. All this is based on the shooting rules in the rulebook, especially the Fast Rolling Dice on page 179, which tells us it's not mandatory to roll all of the same kind of attacks at the same time. It's optional.
Hollow wrote: Although there is nothing written that would prohibit ML benefiting from other ML and it is seemingly possible to roll each individual ML in a unit, in order for the subsequent ML to benefit from previously successful ML. This is not something I would personally do. It stinks of poor sportsmanship and looking to exploit the rules.
You only ever have to check the first ML so its honestly not that bad. however when i asked before no one seems to be sure or cared.
im honestly not sure if it works or not.
edit: nevermind seems to work then.
Honestly roll one at a time till you hit 1. then roll any remaining in a cluster.
it would be pointless to roll 1 at a time till 5+ for that +1 bs. the only thing ML benefits from is the rerolls of 1 which isnt that bad.
I've just watched a battle report with Drones losing models during a morale phase... Who made them leadership 6 seriously? How does that make any sense fluff wise? We have drones, low level artificial intelligence machines, who literally intercept projectiles at will to sacrifice themselves; but once too many of them get destroyed, they just fly away?
I've just watched a battle report with Drones losing models during a morale phase... Who made them leadership 6 seriously? How does that make any sense fluff wise? We have drones, low level artificial intelligence machines, who literally intercept projectiles at will to sacrifice themselves; but once too many of them get destroyed, they just fly away?
I do wonder if we're underestimating the riptide. In particular, the protection that drones can give it might make it a lot tougher than it looks.
Shielded missile drones are a trap though. A very expensive model with a 4++ that it doesn't get to use if you pass wounds to it - because it just takes a mortal wound.
Haechi wrote: I just realized that Riptides don't have to bring (and pay for) the shielded missile drones. So it bring the price down by 50 points!
My Riptide now costs 299 with HBC, two plasma rifles, ATS, and stimulant injector.
The rest of my list being full of markerlights, not having target lock is not an issue for me.
With those 50 free points I can get 5 gun drones to escort the riptide. Damn.
Sorry if everybody knew about this, but it's an enlightenment to me haha.
I find it very hard to field a riptide without a target lock.
Just become far too dependant on markerlights at that point.
And once you take a target lock, and assuming you have an ATS, the SMS is just so much better than the plasma.
The stims, while on paper crazy effective on the riptide, actually serve no purpose.
The riptide hsould'nt be shot at to begin with. its a high durability unit with relatively low firepower per cost, any shots directed at it are wasteful anyway-and putting the stims just discourages shooting at it even more.
Investing further durability in a unit already deep into durability on the durability/lethality scale isn't that useful in my opinion.
If we could take the stims ALOND the ATS, target lock and multitracker (to be truly independant of markerlights), I'd reckon I'd go for it. but otherwise, not seem to be worth the hardpoint.
Ok guys due to the FAQ on how drones work, it seems after your Crisis team takes a wound, you allocate a mortal wound to the drone squad thats with them. Now here is my question.
Lets say you have a 3 man Crisis team. One of them has a shield generator. Can I roll my inv save 1 at a time against high ap wounds, and every time I fail assign it to a drone? How does wound allocation work in this case. Lets say I take a bunch of ap-3 shots. Do I have to take any wounds to my other Crisis suits if they dont have inv saves?
Haechi wrote: I just realized that Riptides don't have to bring (and pay for) the shielded missile drones. So it bring the price down by 50 points!
My Riptide now costs 299 with HBC, two plasma rifles, ATS, and stimulant injector.
The rest of my list being full of markerlights, not having target lock is not an issue for me.
With those 50 free points I can get 5 gun drones to escort the riptide. Damn.
Sorry if everybody knew about this, but it's an enlightenment to me haha.
I find it very hard to field a riptide without a target lock.
Just become far too dependant on markerlights at that point.
And once you take a target lock, and assuming you have an ATS, the SMS is just so much better than the plasma.
The stims, while on paper crazy effective on the riptide, actually serve no purpose.
The riptide hsould'nt be shot at to begin with. its a high durability unit with relatively low firepower per cost, any shots directed at it are wasteful anyway-and putting the stims just discourages shooting at it even more.
Investing further durability in a unit already deep into durability on the durability/lethality scale isn't that useful in my opinion.
If we could take the stims ALOND the ATS, target lock and multitracker (to be truly independant of markerlights), I'd reckon I'd go for it. but otherwise, not seem to be worth the hardpoint.
I haven't actually played it yet, so maybe you're right. But I want to try running the adrenaline not for being shot at, but to maybe save the Nova charge mortal wound. If it's not this, then of course target lock would be better. But my list runs 20 Pathfinders, Darkstrider, a Fireblade, and 3 Strike Team's Shas'ui with ML, so I think I'm good on ML and can let go of the TL.
Plasmas are just here to be the cheapest option. I think Riptides are too expensive for the damage they can do, so focusing only on the HBC is the only way to make it affordable. Anything you add on top of it makes it too expensive for what it is.
You might be right that there is no real point in saving the Nova mortal wound though. I'll have to think about it.
Crusaderobr wrote: Ok guys due to the FAQ on how drones work, it seems after your Crisis team takes a wound, you allocate a mortal wound to the drone squad thats with them. Now here is my question.
Lets say you have a 3 man Crisis team. One of them has a shield generator. Can I roll my inv save 1 at a time against high ap wounds, and every time I fail assign it to a drone? How does wound allocation work in this case. Lets say I take a bunch of ap-3 shots. Do I have to take any wounds to my other Crisis suits if they dont have inv saves?
Crusaderobr wrote: Ok guys due to the FAQ on how drones work, it seems after your Crisis team takes a wound, you allocate a mortal wound to the drone squad thats with them. Now here is my question.
Lets say you have a 3 man Crisis team. One of them has a shield generator. Can I roll my inv save 1 at a time against high ap wounds, and every time I fail assign it to a drone? How does wound allocation work in this case. Lets say I take a bunch of ap-3 shots. Do I have to take any wounds to my other Crisis suits if they dont have inv saves?
You assign the wound to a drone prior to saves.
Thats not what the FAQ states here :
Pages 53, 56, 57, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73
and 74 – Saviour Protocols
Change this rule to read:
‘Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3"
of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit
unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you
can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of
the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal
wound instead of the normal damage.’
Oh I get it now. You allocate the wound before you roll the save. Derp. So shield drones do serve a purpose after all. heh.
No, they don't, as when the wound is allocated to the drone it becomes a mortal wound. And Invulnerable saves can't be taken against mortal wounds.
Hopefully they fix shield drones when the actual Tau codex comes out, cause right now there is not much point in taking them currently, unless your opponent specifically targets the drone unit with high ap weapons.
Oh I get it now. You allocate the wound before you roll the save. Derp. So shield drones do serve a purpose after all. heh.
No, they don't, as when the wound is allocated to the drone it becomes a mortal wound. And Invulnerable saves can't be taken against mortal wounds.
Hopefully they fix shield drones when the actual Tau codex comes out, cause right now there is not much point in taking them currently, unless your opponent specifically targets the drone unit with high ap weapons.
Yup, at the moment the only possible use for Shield Drones is to bubble wrap a character so the opponent has to shoot at them rather than the character. But then they only have a 4++ so you can just down them with basic guns and hit the Commander with the High AP and/or damage stuff after they're dead.
And even then, you could be bubble wrapping him with Gun drones who have the same save against guns with no AP but also contribute to shooting. So basically unless you can get into a position where the only weapons which can shoot at your commander would be high ap and/or damage, gun drones are always going to be the better pick.
So i dont use marker lights very often as honsetly i dont play more then what i thik looks cool, but why wouldnt they benifit eachother? Isnt it dont as a shooting attack or in the shooting phase? I kinda feel thats lime saying you dont apply effects untill every thing shoots in your army instead of squad by squad. So like wounds or other modifiers, that are instant. Why would this one thing not effect it?
Oh I get it now. You allocate the wound before you roll the save. Derp. So shield drones do serve a purpose after all. heh.
No, they don't, as when the wound is allocated to the drone it becomes a mortal wound. And Invulnerable saves can't be taken against mortal wounds.
Hopefully they fix shield drones when the actual Tau codex comes out, cause right now there is not much point in taking them currently, unless your opponent specifically targets the drone unit with high ap weapons.
Yup, at the moment the only possible use for Shield Drones is to bubble wrap a character so the opponent has to shoot at them rather than the character. But then they only have a 4++ so you can just down them with basic guns and hit the Commander with the High AP and/or damage stuff after they're dead.
And even then, you could be bubble wrapping him with Gun drones who have the same save against guns with no AP but also contribute to shooting. So basically unless you can get into a position where the only weapons which can shoot at your commander would be high ap and/or damage, gun drones are always going to be the better pick.
When someone is shooting the drone squad can you put a single shield drone in a gun drone squad take the invul save but if it fails take off a gun drone. That way the entire squad can get a save against high AP weapons from 1 single shield drone and without losing lots of firepower from multiple shield drones.
If this is correct it might be worth putting 1 shield drone in larger gun drone squads.
kellymatthew37 wrote: So i dont use marker lights very often as honsetly i dont play more then what i thik looks cool, but why wouldnt they benifit eachother? Isnt it dont as a shooting attack or in the shooting phase? I kinda feel thats lime saying you dont apply effects untill every thing shoots in your army instead of squad by squad. So like wounds or other modifiers, that are instant. Why would this one thing not effect it?
Not all shooting happen at the same time otherwise you would have to declare your targets for every unit in your army before rolling any dice. But has it happens, if your XXX kills the enemy XXX, then your next unit can shoot something else. If one unit kills an enemy that was closer to you than a Character, your next unit can shoot at the Character. If all the shooting happened at once you wouldn't be able to.
On the Markerlights 1 by 1 thing
Remember you need to DECLARE where your shots will go at the start of shooting.
So, you can't for example in a large Pathfinder group "stop" if you hit 5 early.
I've just watched a battle report with Drones losing models during a morale phase... Who made them leadership 6 seriously? How does that make any sense fluff wise? We have drones, low level artificial intelligence machines, who literally intercept projectiles at will to sacrifice themselves; but once too many of them get destroyed, they just fly away?
Not to mention they can't aim for gak.
It's stupid, but at the same time...
The majority of your drones will come in pairs.
If 1 dies, you need to roll a 6 to kill the other.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mandragola wrote: I do wonder if we're underestimating the riptide. In particular, the protection that drones can give it might make it a lot tougher than it looks.
Shielded missile drones are a trap though. A very expensive model with a 4++ that it doesn't get to use if you pass wounds to it - because it just takes a mortal wound.
The thing that makes Shielded Missile Drones (and Missile Drones) a trap is the fact that they are BS5
Needing to babysit them with a DC is a waste of points.
The fact they carry a Shield is actually decently useful, since you're NOT SUPPOSED to pawn wounds off into a 25 point model.
If you need more Missile Pods, Fire Warrior DS8 Turrets are BS4
Tho again, I'm forced to just recommend a Monat instead for BS2.
Mandragola wrote: I do wonder if we're underestimating the riptide. In particular, the protection that drones can give it might make it a lot tougher than it looks.
Shielded missile drones are a trap though. A very expensive model with a 4++ that it doesn't get to use if you pass wounds to it - because it just takes a mortal wound.
The thing that makes Shielded Missile Drones (and Missile Drones) a trap is the fact that they are BS5
Needing to babysit them with a DC is a waste of points.
The fact they carry a Shield is actually decently useful, since you're NOT SUPPOSED to pawn wounds off into a 25 point model.
If you need more Missile Pods, Fire Warrior DS8 Turrets are BS4
Tho again, I'm forced to just recommend a Monat instead for BS2.
You listed other ways in which shielded missile drones are a trap.
My point is that they are useless to protect the riptide, which is supposed to be part of their job. 3 gun drones would do a better job than one shielded missile drone, for a point less.
Saviour protocols is what potentially makes riptides good. It can tank small arms fire and pass lascannon hits to drones, so getting rid of the thing becomes very difficult.
I think I need to try one out, or even one with HBC and one with IA. I don't think their uselessness has been proven, yet.
I've used Iontide on my last two games. Nova charging the cannon and saving command point for reroll in case I roll low on shots, and its done pretty well. It's good against multi-wound models like Necron Destroyers with flat 3 damage or it can be used scraping wounds off of tanks. Still costs a bit too much I feel.
It sadly is. 107 points for a gun isn't worth it ever unless you go over a really impressive threshold of power, which the Ion Accelerator doesn't have. It's a strong gun but not strong enough for a minimum cost of 337 points.
Lots of units can do that kind of damage for half the price.
Rail weaponry finally does what they felt like they should have been doing all these years. One shot, but dang does that one shot hurt. I'm even liking them in pathfinder units now since they can splitfire freely and for some reason have the same dang effect.
Side note: am i the only one thats rather miffed the Heavy Railgun for forgeworld has the same exact mortal wound effect as the lowly railrifle? Wound of a 6+, D3 additional mortal wounds....uh...not a higher chance of it or D6 or...? that feels really weird.
Is anyone else finding that the Tau army concept of stronger but less accurate firepower and no assault units is not going to work for 8th edition?
Now that most weapons have been standardized as well as abilities (reroll, +1 to hit/wound..etc), Tau really don't have stronger firepower. But they stayed less accurate and now have zero presence of significant note in the charge/fight phase. 8th Tau are also paying premium points on the assumption that they have stronger firepower.
By the time the 8th Tau codex comes out I think Tau are going to need their play style reevaluated. Either they need to join the lofty heights of a BS 3+ army or their weapons need to be much more punishing (like railguns wounding vehicles/monsters on a +2 regardless of T or it needs to do something like 2D3 mortal wounds for its Damage).
Markerlights are still a thing though. And theyre technically nastier than before. We dont spend them, so our entire army can focus fire something down. Firewarrior shas'uis and Cadre Fireblades can freely fire their markerlight AND their pulse rifles too, adding further lights to the target for future units' shots. Splitfire too if you dont want the firewarriors hitting the lighted target, but still need more lights.
The moment you get 5 lights on a target you hit like crazy. Multitrackers on suits and 5lights = 2+ hitting with reroll 1s. Thats not inaccurate at all. If they made us 3+ shooting by default, markerlights need to be removed. Or default to only removing cover bonuses and seeker missiles, which means most people will just ignore them. Yes thats only against 1 unit (2 if youre lucky as hell) but thats how Tau have largely always been. We obliterate whoever our MLs look at, need some good rolls against other things.
BrotherGecko wrote: Is anyone else finding that the Tau army concept of stronger but less accurate firepower and no assault units is not going to work for 8th edition?
Now that most weapons have been standardized as well as abilities (reroll, +1 to hit/wound..etc), Tau really don't have stronger firepower. But they stayed less accurate and now have zero presence of significant note in the charge/fight phase. 8th Tau are also paying premium points on the assumption that they have stronger firepower.
By the time the 8th Tau codex comes out I think Tau are going to need their play style reevaluated. Either they need to join the lofty heights of a BS 3+ army or their weapons need to be much more punishing (like railguns wounding vehicles/monsters on a +2 regardless of T or it needs to do something like 2D3 mortal wounds for its Damage).
You're overestimating the amount of melee capable units in 40k. Most game I've seen so far have been between two ranged armies. Tau Battlesuits, especially the monster ones, while not being melee killing machines, are usually above anything you can find in an other ranged army. Charging vehicles such as Predators, Leman Russ, Transports, etc, or shooting troops like Tactical Marines, Devastators, and whatnot, usually grants you a few more wounds done while the returning hits are usually mediocre thanks to your high toughness and good armor. In the following turn, the unit you charged usually cannot fire at you or anything else, which removes that threat. Once it is your turn again, and if the suits are still alive, you are free to do it again if you're not engage, or disengage and do it again if you were, without losing your shooting phase.
Of course it doesn't work on an assault army, but even in that case you're in better shape than most ranged armies, with you good strength and high toughness. Suits are great man.
Vineheart01 wrote: Markerlights are still a thing though. And theyre technically nastier than before.
We dont spend them, so our entire army can focus fire something down. Firewarrior shas'uis and Cadre Fireblades can freely fire their markerlight AND their pulse rifles too, adding further lights to the target for future units' shots. Splitfire too if you dont want the firewarriors hitting the lighted target, but still need more lights.
The moment you get 5 lights on a target you hit like crazy. Multitrackers on suits and 5lights = 2+ hitting with reroll 1s. Thats not inaccurate at all.
If they made us 3+ shooting by default, markerlights need to be removed. Or default to only removing cover bonuses and seeker missiles, which means most people will just ignore them.
Yes thats only against 1 unit (2 if youre lucky as hell) but thats how Tau have largely always been. We obliterate whoever our MLs look at, need some good rolls against other things.
If your not a vehicle you can't shoot a markerlight and another weapon, its in the markerlight rules.
With no scatter deepstrike I don't see patherfinders making it past a turn if they pose a threat and you need a fairly large amount of markerlights to reliably get 5 on a single target. Other than that stuff like multitrackers make markerlights redundant as its just more reroll ones unless you get the magic 5 hits. Still, even with reroll ones you are missing shots on a 2 and 3 with a 1 giving a reroll that then misses on a 1-3. That isn't exactly something to get giddy about, especially when your paying premium points.
Tau feel like they have returned to the 4th-5th edition days of being a heaping amount of "meh" mixed with some good concepts and a couple of units that could hold their own if you knew what you were doing.
Looking at the stats and point costs I'm becoming less convinced that Missile Broadsides are bad. I compared 2 of them to a unit of 4 Crisis suits with 2 MP each and the costs are comparable. The 2 Broadsides cost slightly more, but they have a better armor save and more weapons (don't forget those SMS!). So nearly double the firepower and a bit more durability at the cost of maneuverability. Of course, you'll probably sit still with the Crisis suits too, as they are too expensive to risk moving them forward once you pay for those Missiles. Now, I'm not saying MP Crisis are good (they probably are terrible), but I'm not as sure as I was that Missilesides are bad, either. Just camp them in cover and go to town, and maybe keep some drones nearby to jump in front of pesky lascannons...
And while we're on the subject of drones, I wonder if it is worth it to take Missile Drones for Broadsides. Yes, they're BS5+, but if a drone controller is nearby it gets better. They are cheaper than taking a MP on a Crisis suit and the same cost as a DS8 turret for Fire Warriors. Maybe let a couple of them run with a unit of Crisis Suits with Drone Controller and some gun drones to add a little heavier firepower. Of course, the downside is more available killpoints for the opponent, but that's kind of a given with any kind of drone support. Tau kind of auto-lose a Killpoint mission unless they can table their opponent.
BrotherGecko wrote: Is anyone else finding that the Tau army concept of stronger but less accurate firepower and no assault units is not going to work for 8th edition?
Now that most weapons have been standardized as well as abilities (reroll, +1 to hit/wound..etc), Tau really don't have stronger firepower. But they stayed less accurate and now have zero presence of significant note in the charge/fight phase. 8th Tau are also paying premium points on the assumption that they have stronger firepower.
By the time the 8th Tau codex comes out I think Tau are going to need their play style reevaluated. Either they need to join the lofty heights of a BS 3+ army or their weapons need to be much more punishing (like railguns wounding vehicles/monsters on a +2 regardless of T or it needs to do something like 2D3 mortal wounds for its Damage).
I'm just waiting for the mass population to realize that Tau doesn't outshoot SM in 8e
Razor, Storms, Dreads... so cheap for how insanely good they are at shooting.
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ZergSmasher wrote: Looking at the stats and point costs I'm becoming less convinced that Missile Broadsides are bad. I compared 2 of them to a unit of 4 Crisis suits with 2 MP each and the costs are comparable. The 2 Broadsides cost slightly more, but they have a better armor save and more weapons (don't forget those SMS!). So nearly double the firepower and a bit more durability at the cost of maneuverability. Of course, you'll probably sit still with the Crisis suits too, as they are too expensive to risk moving them forward once you pay for those Missiles. Now, I'm not saying MP Crisis are good (they probably are terrible), but I'm not as sure as I was that Missilesides are bad, either. Just camp them in cover and go to town, and maybe keep some drones nearby to jump in front of pesky lascannons...
And while we're on the subject of drones, I wonder if it is worth it to take Missile Drones for Broadsides. Yes, they're BS5+, but if a drone controller is nearby it gets better. They are cheaper than taking a MP on a Crisis suit and the same cost as a DS8 turret for Fire Warriors. Maybe let a couple of them run with a unit of Crisis Suits with Drone Controller and some gun drones to add a little heavier firepower. Of course, the downside is more available killpoints for the opponent, but that's kind of a given with any kind of drone support. Tau kind of auto-lose a Killpoint mission unless they can table their opponent.
You're not wrong that compared to Crisis Suits; HYMP is only slightly behind. The problem becomes when you compare it with Monat.
Altho, it's important to understand the difference between being FORCED to STAND STILL, and having the ability to move around. Even if a Crisis Suit isn't going to rush to the front, being able to move laterally, ignore terrain, escape/shoot from charges is absolutely massive.
HYMP+ATS 170 for 8 BS4 shots = 4 hits, 4.66 with ML (42.5 / 36.4)
Monat+ATS 156 for 6 BS2 shots = 5 hits, 5.83 with ML (31.2 / 26.7)
Missile Drones lack ATS, but let's see 40 for 4 BS5 hits = 1.33 hits, 1.55 with ML (30.0 / 25.7)
...
Which SOUNDS Amazing... but Monat without ATS is (25.8 / 22.11)
The Missile Drones could benefit from DC, sure... Making it 2 hits, 2.33 with ML (22.5 / 19.2)
but Listen to all the baggage we are being forced here...
Needing to take a Broadside and a DC... Well I guess you could make your Broadside the DC...
Which could work if you're doing Railside, since Railside doesn't really need their secondary system.
Okay then yea
Railside+DC+Missile Drones is viable.
BrotherGecko wrote: Is anyone else finding that the Tau army concept of stronger but less accurate firepower and no assault units is not going to work for 8th edition?
Now that most weapons have been standardized as well as abilities (reroll, +1 to hit/wound..etc), Tau really don't have stronger firepower. But they stayed less accurate and now have zero presence of significant note in the charge/fight phase. 8th Tau are also paying premium points on the assumption that they have stronger firepower.
By the time the 8th Tau codex comes out I think Tau are going to need their play style reevaluated. Either they need to join the lofty heights of a BS 3+ army or their weapons need to be much more punishing (like railguns wounding vehicles/monsters on a +2 regardless of T or it needs to do something like 2D3 mortal wounds for its Damage).
While I agree Tau shooting took a dive in accuracy (IIRC, one playtester even said "Tau is the new Guard!"; well, if I wanted to play Guard, I'd play the bloody Guard!), I don't fear mele armies that much. They have to come to you.
Other shooting armies, though, are quite problematic. AdMech has quality accuracy AND damage to compete with us and even a similar propsition (fragile infantry, resistant monsters). AdMech is the new Tau, I'd say.
ZergSmasher wrote: Looking at the stats and point costs I'm becoming less convinced that Missile Broadsides are bad. I compared 2 of them to a unit of 4 Crisis suits with 2 MP each and the costs are comparable. The 2 Broadsides cost slightly more, but they have a better armor save and more weapons (don't forget those SMS!). So nearly double the firepower and a bit more durability at the cost of maneuverability. Of course, you'll probably sit still with the Crisis suits too, as they are too expensive to risk moving them forward once you pay for those Missiles. Now, I'm not saying MP Crisis are good (they probably are terrible), but I'm not as sure as I was that Missilesides are bad, either. Just camp them in cover and go to town, and maybe keep some drones nearby to jump in front of pesky lascannons...
This is a 'points per unsaved wounds inflicted' comparison made by a fellow from ATT:
https://imgur.com/a/Vusl4 There, we can see the Broadside is much more expensive than a commander, for a similar number of wounds.
And this one is for 'wounds inflicted':
https://imgur.com/a/k31ho In this one, a Broaside only manages to deal more damage than a commander with 4 MPs if they have 5 MLs on their target.
So, even if Broadsides surpass MP Crisis, MP Commanders still are a better deal than HYMP broadies.
While I agree Tau shooting took a dive in accuracy (IIRC, one playtester even said "Tau is the new Guard!"; well, if I wanted to play Guard, I'd play the bloody Guard!), I don't fear mele armies that much. They have to come to you.
Other shooting armies, though, are quite problematic. AdMech has quality accuracy AND damage to compete with us and even a similar propsition (fragile infantry, resistant monsters). AdMech is the new Tau, I'd say.
Ah funny, I came here by curiosity to read up a bit on the Tau tactics and read this, had my first game against Tau and won, it was tight but once I destroyed his main firepower (Ghostkeel and Broadside) and his support (two full teams of Pathfinders) there wasn't much he could to to me, I just grabbed the objectives save one because all his other dudes died (all XV-25 and Shadowsun). It was a 1000 pts game but I think that his list wasn't very good, it was like:
- 1 Ghostkeel without drones;
- Shadowsun with 4 Shield Drones;
- 2 4-man teams of XV-25, both with one Fusion Blaster;
- 10 Pathfinders on the floating Gunrig thing;
- 6-7 don't remember Pathfinders;
- 1 XV-88 Broadside with Railgun
The Ghostkeel and the Broadside both had the gear to allow shooting on deep-striking targets, which bothered me as it made me drop my Command Squad with 2 Meltas and 2 Plasma guns out of LoS of him, so I guess this gear is a must take for you guys. All these markerlights were decimating my army at first so I quickly understood I had to shut them down, so I did deepstrike some Infiltrators to shoot the small squad and sent my Taurox and some Scions do the rest in shooting and melee. On the end of the game he put Shadowsun in the back of my HQ and one shotted him, but he should've done that earlier. What advice would you have given him to have a list less dependent on the Ghostkeel and Broadsides ?
But I didn't came here to brag, in fact I'm interested in coming back to the Greater Good someday (without dropping my beloved AdMech), which was the first 40K army I had when I was young. I gazed a bit upon the Index and wondered so if the army I intend to do would work decently. My favourite units are the Railgun Broadside, the Hammerhead with Railgun, the XV-25 Stealth Suits, and the Fire Warriors. Now that I see you can have Breacher squads with nice firepower I was wondering if they could be played in Devilfishes to play a fast moving gun army. I don't want an army where I just sit down and shoot (and I don't play AdMech that way), because it's neither fun for me or my opponent to just don't move and throw dice. Would it be possible to build a list with those units ? I dislike the looks of the big Battlesuits, except the Ghostkeel. I don't want to buy Riptides or big stuff like that, I much prefer infantry or small Battlesuits like the XV-25 or the Crisis suits. How would you build an infantry-heavy army in terms of proportions ? 2:1 Breacher squads and Pulse Rifles squads ?
BrotherGecko wrote: Is anyone else finding that the Tau army concept of stronger but less accurate firepower and no assault units is not going to work for 8th edition?
Now that most weapons have been standardized as well as abilities (reroll, +1 to hit/wound..etc), Tau really don't have stronger firepower. But they stayed less accurate and now have zero presence of significant note in the charge/fight phase. 8th Tau are also paying premium points on the assumption that they have stronger firepower.
By the time the 8th Tau codex comes out I think Tau are going to need their play style reevaluated. Either they need to join the lofty heights of a BS 3+ army or their weapons need to be much more punishing (like railguns wounding vehicles/monsters on a +2 regardless of T or it needs to do something like 2D3 mortal wounds for its Damage).
Thats exactly what the list I start to see on most table is :
1000 points exactly, add the exact same Supreme command for a 2k point list.
Triflamer suit answer to hordes and flyer and can move everyturn without penalty since they autohit.
Drones are decent Dakka
Commander dont need introduction.
Bodyguards are pure gold since your commander will basically be the last thing to ever die as the rule is very permissive.
While I agree Tau shooting took a dive in accuracy (IIRC, one playtester even said "Tau is the new Guard!"; well, if I wanted to play Guard, I'd play the bloody Guard!), I don't fear mele armies that much. They have to come to you.
Other shooting armies, though, are quite problematic. AdMech has quality accuracy AND damage to compete with us and even a similar propsition (fragile infantry, resistant monsters). AdMech is the new Tau, I'd say.
Ah funny, I came here by curiosity to read up a bit on the Tau tactics and read this, had my first game against Tau and won, it was tight but once I destroyed his main firepower (Ghostkeel and Broadside) and his support (two full teams of Pathfinders) there wasn't much he could to to me, I just grabbed the objectives save one because all his other dudes died (all XV-25 and Shadowsun). It was a 1000 pts game but I think that his list wasn't very good, it was like:
- 1 Ghostkeel without drones;
- Shadowsun with 4 Shield Drones;
- 2 4-man teams of XV-25, both with one Fusion Blaster;
- 10 Pathfinders on the floating Gunrig thing;
- 6-7 don't remember Pathfinders;
- 1 XV-88 Broadside with Railgun
The Ghostkeel and the Broadside both had the gear to allow shooting on deep-striking targets, which bothered me as it made me drop my Command Squad with 2 Meltas and 2 Plasma guns out of LoS of him, so I guess this gear is a must take for you guys. All these markerlights were decimating my army at first so I quickly understood I had to shut them down, so I did deepstrike some Infiltrators to shoot the small squad and sent my Taurox and some Scions do the rest in shooting and melee. On the end of the game he put Shadowsun in the back of my HQ and one shotted him, but he should've done that earlier. What advice would you have given him to have a list less dependent on the Ghostkeel and Broadsides ?
But I didn't came here to brag, in fact I'm interested in coming back to the Greater Good someday (without dropping my beloved AdMech), which was the first 40K army I had when I was young. I gazed a bit upon the Index and wondered so if the army I intend to do would work decently. My favourite units are the Railgun Broadside, the Hammerhead with Railgun, the XV-25 Stealth Suits, and the Fire Warriors. Now that I see you can have Breacher squads with nice firepower I was wondering if they could be played in Devilfishes to play a fast moving gun army. I don't want an army where I just sit down and shoot (and I don't play AdMech that way), because it's neither fun for me or my opponent to just don't move and throw dice. Would it be possible to build a list with those units ? I dislike the looks of the big Battlesuits, except the Ghostkeel. I don't want to buy Riptides or big stuff like that, I much prefer infantry or small Battlesuits like the XV-25 or the Crisis suits. How would you build an infantry-heavy army in terms of proportions ? 2:1 Breacher squads and Pulse Rifles squads ?
The upgrade that allows us to shoot at Deep Strikers is called EWO. It's really powerful but really difficult to bring.
For starters it only affects enemies who Deep Strike within 12", so that's a lot of conditional already.
An enemy needs to bring Deep Strikers at all, and they need to be close range Deep Strikers.
It also costs 8 ponts, and on a lot of the things that can bring it; costs one of the Gun Slots.
Even when it doesn't cost a Gun Slot, it will still cost the Support Slot which could be used for other things that could improve our killing potential.
I hope the Pathfinders weren't shooting Markerlights + Assault Carbines. Since that is against the rules.
If you want to use Breachers, I recommend using the same Tidewall that your friend was using.
Then you don't even need to disembark to shoot their Pulse Shotguns.
Railsides and Railheads are solid choices. Longrails especially is absolutely insane.
Ghostkeel is a solid choice as well, but Riptide is pretty trash in 8e.
Stealth Suits are in a middling place at the moment, not spectacular, not garbage either. Some key usage like DC Carrier that nothing else in the army can compete with. Low cost for mediocre effectiveness...
Devilfish on the other hand, leans towards being pretty bad.
As far as my personal suggestion for an infantry heavy list, I would just use Cadre Fireblade HQ, Strike Teams with the Pulse Rifle, and a few Pathfinders with Accelerator Drones. That's 3 shots at 18" from the Strike Team.
The upgrade that allows us to shoot at Deep Strikers is called EWO. It's really powerful but really difficult to bring.
For starters it only affects enemies who Deep Strike within 12", so that's a lot of conditional already.
An enemy needs to bring Deep Strikers at all, and they need to be close range Deep Strikers.
It also costs 8 ponts, and on a lot of the things that can bring it; costs one of the Gun Slots.
Even when it doesn't cost a Gun Slot, it will still cost the Support Slot which could be used for other things that could improve our killing potential.
I hope the Pathfinders weren't shooting Markerlights + Assault Carbines. Since that is against the rules.
If you want to use Breachers, I recommend using the same Tidewall that your friend was using.
Then you don't even need to disembark to shoot their Pulse Shotguns.
Railsides and Railheads are solid choices. Longrails especially is absolutely insane.
Ghostkeel is a solid choice as well, but Riptide is pretty trash in 8e.
Stealth Suits are in a middling place at the moment, not spectacular, not garbage either. Some key usage like DC Carrier that nothing else in the army can compete with. Low cost for mediocre effectiveness...
Devilfish on the other hand, leans towards being pretty bad.
As far as my personal suggestion for an infantry heavy list, I would just use Cadre Fireblade HQ, Strike Teams with the Pulse Rifle, and a few Pathfinders with Accelerator Drones. That's 3 shots at 18" from the Strike Team.
No he used either the Markerlights or the Carbines, he played by the rules as far as I know. Well as an Imperium player you have to know that the latest trend is the Command Squad plasma spam, they drop a 4-man team full of plasma guns (I use mine with two meltas and two plasma) along with a Tempestor Prime who gives the order to reroll 1s to Hit and 1s to Wound and go full Overcharge. At 12" they fire 8 S8 AP-3 2D that hits on 3+, almost guaranteed to kill anything they want. With mine I managed to drop 10W off a Baneblade in a recent game (after that they tend to die due to the opponent realising these guys are mean), so you need to be prepared for close deep-striking units. It looked like a nice option at least for the Broadside who stayed in the backfield, I don't think the Ghostkeel looks like he needs that however.
Why are Devilfishes bad ? The Tidewall looks fun but not very fast, although the ability to bounce off Mortal Wounds on 6+ save rolls like Kastelan Robots is nice. I don't know, I like the idea of delivering a Strike team with a Devilfish to clear a building, throwing photon grenades before breaking in to deliver their S6 AP-2 shots to whoever is unlucky enough to be the target. Also, it breaks the idea of immobile Tau gunlines and I find that nice and more challenging. I'd keep pulse rifles (the 30" ones ?) for the sake of having some reach too of course.
What are Longrails ? The Sniper ones ? I love them too, they're almost like our Arquebuses.
So a Marker Drone is 8 pts, and you have to add the markerlight so 11 pts?
Stealth Suits are vastly underestimated imo. DC, 2 wounds 4 toughness with -1 for your opponent to hit, keep em in cover for a 2+ save, whats not to like?
No he used either the Markerlights or the Carbines, he played by the rules as far as I know. Well as an Imperium player you have to know that the latest trend is the Command Squad plasma spam, they drop a 4-man team full of plasma guns (I use mine with two meltas and two plasma) along with a Tempestor Prime who gives the order to reroll 1s to Hit and 1s to Wound and go full Overcharge. At 12" they fire 8 S8 AP-3 2D that hits on 3+, almost guaranteed to kill anything they want. With mine I managed to drop 10W off a Baneblade in a recent game (after that they tend to die due to the opponent realising these guys are mean), so you need to be prepared for close deep-striking units. It looked like a nice option at least for the Broadside who stayed in the backfield, I don't think the Ghostkeel looks like he needs that however.
Why are Devilfishes bad ? The Tidewall looks fun but not very fast, although the ability to bounce off Mortal Wounds on 6+ save rolls like Kastelan Robots is nice. I don't know, I like the idea of delivering a Strike team with a Devilfish to clear a building, throwing photon grenades before breaking in to deliver their S6 AP-2 shots to whoever is unlucky enough to be the target. Also, it breaks the idea of immobile Tau gunlines and I find that nice and more challenging. I'd keep pulse rifles (the 30" ones ?) for the sake of having some reach too of course.
What are Longrails ? The Sniper ones ? I love them too, they're almost like our Arquebuses.
Just making sure, since that's a common mistake among Tau players recently.
For example that Plasma Team could just drop outside of the EWO user. As I said, it's not really easy to bring EWO.
Railsides are pretty great at carrying them, and Ghostkeels are fine at it. Crisis Suits would lose too much from it, and Stealth Suits aren't effective enough.
So, yea it's an incredibly powerful, insanely situational piece of equipment that competes heavily for it's place in our lists.
Devilfish are insanely expensive (110pts without counting the Gun Drones) for only 10 points worth of Guns. It's like if a Rhino costed an additional 40 points.
Altho the Tidewalls real penalty isn't it's slightly slower speed, but it's potential Command Point costs/Detachment Slot cost.
Pulse Rifles are 30"
Pathfinders can bring an Accelerator Drone that increases the range of Basic Pulse Guns (Carbines and Rifles) by 6"
Thus giving them them an effective 18" Rapid Fire Range.
I apologize, Longrails is short for Longstrike HQ Tank using Railgun as his weapon.
The dude is a Beast with BS2, +1 to Wounding, and +1 BS to Hammerheads Tanks nearby.
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Crusaderobr wrote: So a Marker Drone is 8 pts, and you have to add the markerlight so 11 pts?
Stealth Suits are vastly underestimated imo. DC, 2 wounds 4 toughness with -1 for your opponent to hit, keep em in cover for a 2+ save, whats not to like?
No, 10 points and they get their Markerlight for Free
All Drones get Weapons for Free
Stealth Suits are fairly survivable, that's fair
but they also don't do very much offensively.
I would suggest 2 DC + 1 VT Fusion, comes in at 115 pts
EWO works against any kind of set up mechanic, so deep strikes, outflanks and some psykery are included in its line of work.
Against your special unit, Aaranis, the EWO would either force you to deploy more than 12" (negating your rapid fire extra shots) or closer (and maybe losing models).
I'd say a Ghostkeel is a good EWO platform, as it even gets a -2 to be hit by models more than 12" of it.
Vector Strike wrote: EWO works against any kind of set up mechanic, so deep strikes, outflanks and some psykery are included in its line of work.
Against your special unit, Aaranis, the EWO would either force you to deploy more than 12" (negating your rapid fire extra shots) or closer (and maybe losing models).
I'd say a Ghostkeel is a good EWO platform, as it even gets a -2 to be hit by models more than 12" of it.
And Sporemines from Biovores. Although saying that I am not finding EWO any good. So far for me 100% of enemy deep strikes have been between 12” and 18”. Not managed to fire it once.
Vector Strike wrote: EWO works against any kind of set up mechanic, so deep strikes, outflanks and some psykery are included in its line of work.
Against your special unit, Aaranis, the EWO would either force you to deploy more than 12" (negating your rapid fire extra shots) or closer (and maybe losing models).
I'd say a Ghostkeel is a good EWO platform, as it even gets a -2 to be hit by models more than 12" of it.
Against a unit with Meltas like mine (so, 12" range) the EWO effectively blocks me from entering. I don't know if there's much Melta drops anyway, but even then you only eat half the plasma shots so that's nice I take it.
Longstrike is really nice and I don't see any reason not to include him if you intended on bringing a Hammerhead, he's a HQ so maybe you want to keep those slots for other Characters ?
Crusaderobr wrote: So a Marker Drone is 8 pts, and you have to add the markerlight so 11 pts?
Stealth Suits are vastly underestimated imo. DC, 2 wounds 4 toughness with -1 for your opponent to hit, keep em in cover for a 2+ save, whats not to like?
What's DC? Stealth are fantastic at taking an objective and being annoying to remove. The issue is how little damage they do.
So far for me 100% of enemy deep strikes have been between 12” and 18”. Not managed to fire it once.
Yeah but you have to realize maybe it's because of your EWO that they deployed further away. The item goal is not just to shoot at them, it's to deny them.
DC is drone controller, as you'd see if you held your mouse over it. Stealths are good candidates to carry the DC because there isn't much else for them to take.
I agree that there's a problem with Tau shooting, at least on paper. Railguns are just lascannons, in effect, but imperial armies get many lascannons for every railgun the Tau can field.
I think the only sensible solution is to change the railgun's stats somewhat. For example maybe it should do 2d6 wounds. If you just get one shot from your tank, instead of four, that shot should at least do a significant amount of damage.
Mandragola wrote: DC is drone controller, as you'd see if you held your mouse over it. Stealths are good candidates to carry the DC because there isn't much else for them to take.
.
I see. I did hover my mouse over it and thought it has to be something else. I don't like giving DC to any unit that doesn't have a better BS than 4+. I'd rather give ATS to Stealths I think.
BoomWolf wrote: DC is completely irrelevant to your BS. it gives drones in the bubble +1 the BS, unlike 7th where it gave the user's.
ATS on stealth suits is silly, the damage increase does not even equal the cost increase, spending these points on more boys is outright better.
So interesting question you raise me.
What's better on an XV9 with two DBBC, for 16 str 5 shots, along with 4 gun drones.
And ATS or drone controller. (or other?!)
You are getting a better (earlier) bonus of +1 to hit with 4 gun drones, or 16 shots. However you are getting a worse (later) bonus with -1 to the save with the ATS on the same number of 16 shots. Plus the ATS is a tiny bit more expensive, right?
However however... the DC relies on functional drones; the ATS is for the main model; you'll likely loose drones before the main suit; if you did it's a moot point because you'd loose the ATS/DC either way.
I completely disagree on the efficacy of the Devilfish. They are very good. Their damage output is irrelevant. They exist to be fast, resilient tarpits that coincidentally also deliver Breachers. Tarpiting other shooting armies is now our greatest strength. I've beaten guard, Ynnari and AdMech in this way, and the games I lost came doe to me not having enough tarpits.
You have to change your style of play or change your army. GW gave Tau a major paradigm shift, which we can all complain about, but in the meantime, adapt or die.
BoomWolf wrote: DC is completely irrelevant to your BS. it gives drones in the bubble +1 the BS, unlike 7th where it gave the user's.
ATS on stealth suits is silly, the damage increase does not even equal the cost increase, spending these points on more boys is outright better.
So interesting question you raise me.
What's better on an XV9 with two DBBC, for 16 str 5 shots, along with 4 gun drones.
And ATS or drone controller. (or other?!)
You are getting a better (earlier) bonus of +1 to hit with 4 gun drones, or 16 shots. However you are getting a worse (later) bonus with -1 to the save with the ATS on the same number of 16 shots. Plus the ATS is a tiny bit more expensive, right?
However however... the DC relies on functional drones; the ATS is for the main model; you'll likely loose drones before the main suit; if you did it's a moot point because you'd loose the ATS/DC either way.
The value of the ATS depends on how many weapons it will improve. On a 4-BC XV9 it will buff lots and lots of weapons, so it's value is high. On a one-BC stealth suit, not so much.
A BC's value is constant regardless of the platform it's on. So is its cost. However the opportunity cost is not always equal. Sticking a DC on a commander means losing a BS2+ gun. But a stealth suit has a slot for a support system, and only one gun that you could buff - making other support systems inefficient. And stealth suits have the same range as gun drones, meaning they'll tend to want to hang around in the same kind of places.
All of which means that DCs are a good option for stealth suits and ATSs are a good option for BC XV9s.
Someone earlier suggested using an XV9 with pulse submunition rifles and a DC to look after marker drones. That isn't a terrible option, though it's kind of unspectacular.
The Shrike wrote: I completely disagree on the efficacy of the Devilfish. They are very good. Their damage output is irrelevant. They exist to be fast, resilient tarpits that coincidentally also deliver Breachers. Tarpiting other shooting armies is now our greatest strength. I've beaten guard, Ynnari and AdMech in this way, and the games I lost came doe to me not having enough tarpits.
You have to change your style of play or change your army. GW gave Tau a major paradigm shift, which we can all complain about, but in the meantime, adapt or die.
I think you're confusing the Wave Serpent and the Devilfish.
Wave Serpent is fast and resilient. Devilfish is an overpriced Rhino that hovers.
Also, what do you mean by Tarpitting? Do you mean assaulting with your transport?
If your opponents aren't bringing enough firepower to pop a Rhino in 1 turn... I don't even know how to continue this argument.
The Shrike wrote: I completely disagree on the efficacy of the Devilfish. They are very good. Their damage output is irrelevant. They exist to be fast, resilient tarpits that coincidentally also deliver Breachers. Tarpiting other shooting armies is now our greatest strength. I've beaten guard, Ynnari and AdMech in this way, and the games I lost came doe to me not having enough tarpits.
You have to change your style of play or change your army. GW gave Tau a major paradigm shift, which we can all complain about, but in the meantime, adapt or die.
I think you're confusing the Wave Serpent and the Devilfish.
Wave Serpent is fast and resilient. Devilfish is an overpriced Rhino that hovers.
Also, what do you mean by Tarpitting? Do you mean assaulting with your transport?
If your opponents aren't bringing enough firepower to pop a Rhino in 1 turn... I don't even know how to continue this argument.
I completely agree with Shrike on this. In my games, I have used devilfish to brutal success. And yes, charge with them. You charge a razorback or pred, or anything else shooty without the fly keyword, and you are effectively taking it out of the game for at LEAST 1 turn, more likely 2-3.
And I'm not sure how much firepower you expect your opponent to dump into a devilfish? Or even a rhino for that matter. If they want it dead badly enough to focus major firepower on it, then great. That's less heat that my crisis, commanders, and stealth teams are taking. But anyway, I have been running 4-5 fish, so they will have to do a lot of popping in a hurry, or they will find themselves swamped quickly.
The Shrike wrote: I completely disagree on the efficacy of the Devilfish. They are very good. Their damage output is irrelevant. They exist to be fast, resilient tarpits that coincidentally also deliver Breachers. Tarpiting other shooting armies is now our greatest strength. I've beaten guard, Ynnari and AdMech in this way, and the games I lost came doe to me not having enough tarpits.
You have to change your style of play or change your army. GW gave Tau a major paradigm shift, which we can all complain about, but in the meantime, adapt or die.
I think you're confusing the Wave Serpent and the Devilfish.
Wave Serpent is fast and resilient. Devilfish is an overpriced Rhino that hovers.
Also, what do you mean by Tarpitting? Do you mean assaulting with your transport?
If your opponents aren't bringing enough firepower to pop a Rhino in 1 turn... I don't even know how to continue this argument.
The opponent has to deal with multiple fish and multiple Ghostkeels doing the same thing. Not so easy.
As with last edition, the key to making Devilfish worth a crap seems to be to spam them. In 7th, it was so you could abuse jink. Now, it's just so you have a wall of relatively durable junk to obscure important units and/or block movement. Charging with Devilfish seems like an okay-ish tactic, but you have to remember that you're using a fairly expensive unit to occupy whatever they're charging. I'd imagine anything expensive enough to make that gambit worthwhile is going to die before Devilfish get anywhere near them. For instance, that Predator you mentioned is going to take a fusion Commnder to the face long before a 'fish chugs across the board to engage it.
I'm interested enough in Devilfish to give them a shot, but I honestly think that all-out offense is going to be the key to success for Tau this edition, as we currently stand. With the changes to AP, our durable suits aren't the stalwart gun platforms they used to be, despite drone protection, so we've got to chop down to opposing offensive threats as soon as possible. It helps a lot that Gun Drones are both our most offensive offensive weapons and our best defensive option for larger suits, so count on bringing those guys in droves.
Crusaderobr wrote: So a Marker Drone is 8 pts, and you have to add the markerlight so 11 pts?
Stealth Suits are vastly underestimated imo. DC, 2 wounds 4 toughness with -1 for your opponent to hit, keep em in cover for a 2+ save, whats not to like?
What's DC? Stealth are fantastic at taking an objective and being annoying to remove. The issue is how little damage they do.
So far for me 100% of enemy deep strikes have been between 12” and 18”. Not managed to fire it once.
Yeah but you have to realize maybe it's because of your EWO that they deployed further away. The item goal is not just to shoot at them, it's to deny them.
Not in my experience although I admit that can happen. So far all the deep strikers I have come across have been happy to deep strike outside 12” and use assault weapons. The one time I could have used EWO was when some spore mines landed but that time I had no EWO.
BoomWolf wrote: ATS on stealth suits is silly, the damage increase does not even equal the cost increase, spending these points on more boys is outright better.
I don’t agree for the price of ATS you can only buy 1 extra stealth suit and ATS increases your close combat damage as well as shooting. More basic troops aren’t always better at they wont be in the fire range bubble that the stealth suits are using ATS in.
Saying that I only put ATS on the burst suits so its 32pts. Don’t see it as that useful for the fusion suits.
Crusaderobr wrote: So a Marker Drone is 8 pts, and you have to add the markerlight so 11 pts?
Stealth Suits are vastly underestimated imo. DC, 2 wounds 4 toughness with -1 for your opponent to hit, keep em in cover for a 2+ save, whats not to like?
What's DC? Stealth are fantastic at taking an objective and being annoying to remove. The issue is how little damage they do.
So far for me 100% of enemy deep strikes have been between 12” and 18”. Not managed to fire it once.
Yeah but you have to realize maybe it's because of your EWO that they deployed further away. The item goal is not just to shoot at them, it's to deny them.
Not in my experience although I admit that can happen. So far all the deep strikers I have come across have been happy to deep strike outside 12” and use assault weapons. The one time I could have used EWO was when some spore mines landed but that time I had no EWO.
If they're deepstriking within 12", you can EWO them. If they're deepstriking over 12", they can't rapid-fire 24" weapons or fire 12" assault weapons (most Plasma guns and most melta guns, respectively), so denying those extra 3" seems like one of the prime purposes of EWO - not to prevent Deepstriking, but to prevent EFFECTIVE Deepstriking.
BoomWolf wrote: ATS on stealth suits is silly, the damage increase does not even equal the cost increase, spending these points on more boys is outright better.
I don’t agree for the price of ATS you can only buy 1 extra stealth suit and ATS increases your close combat damage as well as shooting. More basic troops aren’t always better at they wont be in the fire range bubble that the stealth suits are using ATS in.
Saying that I only put ATS on the burst suits so its 32pts. Don’t see it as that useful for the fusion suits.
How are you getting 32 points for a BC stealthsuit with ATS?
When I add up the base cost with the BC cost, then add the ATS cost, I am NOT getting 32.
Damn overshot it, but it did prove that there is a break point. A minimal amount of drones that makes DC Good vs Trash.
Let's do a final check on DC+20GD vs 33GD
92 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~11.9
132 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~11.4
Big european ETC is in and the Tau ranking was getting curb stomped. Other than them overall ranking really low I can't find out much else about it other than that Team England took the win and deathwing flyer spam list everyone is worried about won there as well. 8th edition is clearly not as balanced as they thought.
Crusaderobr wrote: So a Marker Drone is 8 pts, and you have to add the markerlight so 11 pts?
Stealth Suits are vastly underestimated imo. DC, 2 wounds 4 toughness with -1 for your opponent to hit, keep em in cover for a 2+ save, whats not to like?
What's DC? Stealth are fantastic at taking an objective and being annoying to remove. The issue is how little damage they do.
So far for me 100% of enemy deep strikes have been between 12” and 18”. Not managed to fire it once.
Yeah but you have to realize maybe it's because of your EWO that they deployed further away. The item goal is not just to shoot at them, it's to deny them.
Not in my experience although I admit that can happen. So far all the deep strikers I have come across have been happy to deep strike outside 12” and use assault weapons. The one time I could have used EWO was when some spore mines landed but that time I had no EWO.
If they're deepstriking within 12", you can EWO them. If they're deepstriking over 12", they can't rapid-fire 24" weapons or fire 12" assault weapons (most Plasma guns and most melta guns, respectively), so denying those extra 3" seems like one of the prime purposes of EWO - not to prevent Deepstriking, but to prevent EFFECTIVE Deepstriking.
BoomWolf wrote: ATS on stealth suits is silly, the damage increase does not even equal the cost increase, spending these points on more boys is outright better.
I don’t agree for the price of ATS you can only buy 1 extra stealth suit and ATS increases your close combat damage as well as shooting. More basic troops aren’t always better at they wont be in the fire range bubble that the stealth suits are using ATS in.
Saying that I only put ATS on the burst suits so its 32pts. Don’t see it as that useful for the fusion suits.
How are you getting 32 points for a BC stealthsuit with ATS?
When I add up the base cost with the BC cost, then add the ATS cost, I am NOT getting 32.
Sorry that wasn’t clear. I mean the ATS for the squad costs 32pts as I don’t use ATS on the Fusion Suits. Personally I consider 32pts for the squad worthwhile and don’t see it as better to spend 32points on extra suits instead of ATS. As for deepstrike in my experience those situations rarely happen. Perhaps it’s just the type of players I have been up against as so far I have not managed to fire EWO once. No one even bothers to ask if I have EWO, they just deep strike without factoring it in.
Damn overshot it, but it did prove that there is a break point. A minimal amount of drones that makes DC Good vs Trash.
Let's do a final check on DC+20GD vs 33GD
92 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~11.9
132 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~11.4
I tend to infiltrate my stealth with homing bacon so there are only 2 drones. I found the deep strike flamers extremely effective. To the point where a full sized stealth team with ATS + triple flamer deep strike suits more effective then buffed gun drones. Its not all about what causes the most wounds. My last game I killed 10 killerkans and 2 deff dreads like this before the gun drones would have even got into fire range. The numbers might say drones are better but I don't see how I could have done 60+wounds with mass drones by the end of turn 2. It was a devastating combo.
I agree with the adapt or Die mentality. Our army got shaken up pretty well. But we have our strengths with Fly being on basically everything.
Our stealth suits with a DC, EOW, and Velocity Tracker will be the best load out for them. Drones will be there bubble of health and secondary threat. If the enemy wants to shoot the Stealth units let them; we carry a negative to the hit role which is still imo the better of defense abilities in the game. That 105 points for a 3 man team and worth it. IF you really want to keep the costs down drop the EOW.
I tend to infiltrate my stealth with homing bacon so there are only 2 drones. I found the deep strike flamers extremely effective. To the point where a full sized stealth team with ATS + triple flamer deep strike suits more effective then buffed gun drones. Its not all about what causes the most wounds. My last game I killed 10 killerkans and 2 deff dreads like this before the gun drones would have even got into fire range. The numbers might say drones are better but I don't see how I could have done 60+wounds with mass drones by the end of turn 2. It was a devastating combo.
Well... the Crisis you drop could bring an additional 6 Drones for a total of 8. With so few Drones you don't need 3 DC, just 1 should be sufficient. Which would vastly increase your output without ruining the tactic.
Also I'm going to assume you wrote ATS + Double Flamer
If it was Triple Flamer I'm going to assume you either cheated or used Monat for Flamers which sounds like a Sin in my book.
Let's find the math for Kans then, they are basically MEQ with T5.
Flamers are S4 so already off to a bad start...
68 / (7 * 1/3 * 1/2) = 1.16 (58.28)
Also Triple Flamer Suits...
69 / (10.5 * 1/3 * 1/3) = 1.16 (59.14)
58 points per wound is a terrible value...
Even Triple Plasma Rifle Crisis...
75 / (6 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 5/6) = 1.94 (38.57)
Are VASTLY better and don't even need a Stealth Suit to guide them in.
and Quad Monat Plasma Rifles
120 / (8 * 35/36 * 2/3 * 5/6) = 4.32 (27.77)
are just an insult
Weirdly, I think a riptide might make a decent drone controller. I was looking at my IA and double fusion riptide. It's going to get a target lock of course, then... something else. A drone controller seems a decent option.
The basic idea would be to run the riptide with several units of 6 or so drones around it. They both want to get within 18" of things. It would be a hell of a job to get rid of the riptide if it could put big hits onto drones.
Having said that, riptides do remain insanely expensive. This is more a case of me trying to find something to do with my riptide, rather than finding the best thing to put a DC onto.
Ishotfirst wrote: I agree with the adapt or Die mentality. Our army got shaken up pretty well. But we have our strengths with Fly being on basically everything.
Our stealth suits with a DC, EOW, and Velocity Tracker will be the best load out for them. Drones will be there bubble of health and secondary threat. If the enemy wants to shoot the Stealth units let them; we carry a negative to the hit role which is still imo the better of defense abilities in the game. That 105 points for a 3 man team and worth it. IF you really want to keep the costs down drop the EOW.
I'm generally with you on the DC and Velocity Tracker (DC because Stealth don't benefit as much from other wargear, VT because it is shared with the whole unit, which stacks with the support systems available to other suits in the unit).
EWO I'm just not seeing as being worthwhile on Stealthsuits. You're paying EWO costs for each suit, to only get a single BS4+ Burst Cannon per EWO spent, which seems dreadfully inefficient.
I'll admit that the idea remains intriguing, since Stealthsuits are among the most likely of T'au units to be operating on their own or at the edges of T'au-held positions, and so are more likely than, say, a backfield Broadside to actually provide a meaningful bubble of discouragement (unless the enemy has room to Deepstrike directly behind an exposed backfield Broadside, the Broadside is unlikely to be positioned where the 3" of suggestive area denial is actually meaningful).
Might give it a shot, but the damage output just doesn't scream the "area denial" that a Stormsurge or Riptide with EWO does.
Pottsey wrote:
Sorry that wasn’t clear. I mean the ATS for the squad costs 32pts as I don’t use ATS on the Fusion Suits. Personally I consider 32pts for the squad worthwhile and don’t see it as better to spend 32points on extra suits instead of ATS.
Talamare kindly brought to light (a very small portion of) the mathhammer, and I'd imagine it is often the case that increasing the point cost by ~25% is worth the extra penetration of AP-1.
That said, an extra suit is an extra couple of wounds, and while 5 BCs is less firepower than 4BCs, 2 wounds to the squad means the ATS squad lost 25% of its firepower while the vanilla squad only lost 20%.
I'll probably end up putting either Target Locks or ATS on any Stealthsuits that don't have a DC or VT, personally - ATS if I expect to have my Stealth Suits staying closer to my firebase, TL if I expect the Stealth Suits will need to operate more independently.
As for deepstrike in my experience those situations rarely happen. Perhaps it’s just the type of players I have been up against as so far I have not managed to fire EWO once. No one even bothers to ask if I have EWO, they just deep strike without factoring it in.
I think its safe to say that Deepstriking within 12" is a very powerful tool for a very large portion of WH40k's armies (namely, the Imperium and Chaos, with their 12" meltaguns and mostly 24" plasmaguns), but that not all enemies deepstrike or need to deepstrike within 12" to be effective (Tau Commanders with 4 CIBs, for example, needs only get within 18" of the target).
Never having used EWO does not really suggest EWO wasn't meaningful, and I wonder if you explicitly asked the opponent if they deepstruck without factoring EWO in. Even if they did not, would they have been willing to deepstrike within EWO range had you positioned the EWO better?
We're all working with anecdotes here, so I can't claim your experience to be anecdotal without throwing my own out with the proverbial bathwater... which is fine. But while EWO is situational in its usefulness, I think its disingenuous to think that the potential of a Stormsurge, Riptide, Ghostkeel, R'varna or Y'vahra getting a completely free, no-penalty shooting phase against your models when they arrive (and before they get a chance to shoot or assault) wouldn't result in modifying where an opponent is willing to deepstrike their models, and (on some models) an EWO is a small point cost to pay to dictate (even in its limited way) an opponent's choices in mobility.
Gamgee wrote:Big european ETC is in and the Tau ranking was getting curb stomped. Other than them overall ranking really low I can't find out much else about it other than that Team England took the win and deathwing flyer spam list everyone is worried about won there as well. 8th edition is clearly not as balanced as they thought.
Welp... nevermind... Stealth Suits kinda of suck
Anyone know how to setup an equivalency equation?
Let's try...
(67*3) + (15.4*X) = (23.15*X)
X = ~25
DC + 25 GD vs 38 GD 112 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~14.5
152 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~13.1
Damn overshot it, but it did prove that there is a break point. A minimal amount of drones that makes DC Good vs Trash.
Let's do a final check on DC+20GD vs 33GD
92 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~11.9
132 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~11.4
(67.5*3) + (15.4*X) = (23.15*X)
This problem was stuck in my head for a bit, and I couldn't let it go.
If I had just subtracted 3X I would have come to the right value
i.e. (67.5*3) + (15.4*X) - 3X = (23.15*X)
Which comes to X = 18
84 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~10.88
124 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~10.71
and 17 for confirmation...
80 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~10.37
120 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~10.37
Whatever! I'm so done right now
3 Stealth Suits each with a DC + 17 Gun Drones = 30 Gun Drones
240 points for the setup
Ishotfirst wrote: I agree with the adapt or Die mentality. Our army got shaken up pretty well. But we have our strengths with Fly being on basically everything.
Our stealth suits with a DC, EOW, and Velocity Tracker will be the best load out for them. Drones will be there bubble of health and secondary threat. If the enemy wants to shoot the Stealth units let them; we carry a negative to the hit role which is still imo the better of defense abilities in the game. That 105 points for a 3 man team and worth it. IF you really want to keep the costs down drop the EOW.
I'm generally with you on the DC and Velocity Tracker (DC because Stealth don't benefit as much from other wargear, VT because it is shared with the whole unit, which stacks with the support systems available to other suits in the unit).
EWO I'm just not seeing as being worthwhile on Stealthsuits. You're paying EWO costs for each suit, to only get a single BS4+ Burst Cannon per EWO spent, which seems dreadfully inefficient.
I'll admit that the idea remains intriguing, since Stealthsuits are among the most likely of T'au units to be operating on their own or at the edges of T'au-held positions, and so are more likely than, say, a backfield Broadside to actually provide a meaningful bubble of discouragement (unless the enemy has room to Deepstrike directly behind an exposed backfield Broadside, the Broadside is unlikely to be positioned where the 3" of suggestive area denial is actually meaningful).
Might give it a shot, but the damage output just doesn't scream the "area denial" that a Stormsurge or Riptide with EWO does.
You are right on the EWO for some reason I was thinking it applied to the unit. However, it is probably served best to have the EWO on a Broadside or occasional commander.
Gamgee wrote:Big european ETC is in and the Tau ranking was getting curb stomped. Other than them overall ranking really low I can't find out much else about it other than that Team England took the win and deathwing flyer spam list everyone is worried about won there as well. 8th edition is clearly not as balanced as they thought.
Care to share a link for those results?
I saw the Google doc with the lists. Tau player was running shadowsun 2 big units of stealth suits 1 ghostkeel darkstrider, long strike, 10 kroot, 2 units of strikes with markers drones, 2 units of pathfinders with drones and rail rifles, 1 hammerhead and a devilfish.
Not what I would call a super optimum list. Especially since we now know that including anti flyer units and VT's is going to be needed for tornaments
You getting the keyword mechanic wrong. He buffs TX7 Hammerhead Gunships and not TX7 HAMMERHEAD GUNSHIPS. That's not the same. He buffs a specific Datasheet Name, not a KEYWORD. So no +1 for himself. The "other" was removed because it was never needed.
You getting the keyword mechanic wrong. He buffs TX7 Hammerhead Gunships and not TX7 HAMMERHEAD GUNSHIPS. That's not the same. He buffs a specific Datasheet Name, not a KEYWORD. So no +1 for himself. The "other" was removed because it was never needed.
There is some indication that is the case, given that apparently this is distinguishable in AoS (that's by statements of others, though - if someone has samples one way or the other they're aware of where this is explicitly distinguished, that'd be great). Consider that conditionally conceded, if you like.
There is also no valid reason why they would have changed the wording for Longstrike's ability through errata EXCEPT to allow Longstrike to benefit from his own special rule. It being extraneous is not enough, since it would be unnecessary to modify for the game to play as GW wants it to play. I have a hard time believing that we're supposed to believe that GW is so obsessed over making sure their language is efficient that they'll take the time, effort, and space to correct language that doesn't actually need to be corrected - if they're bothering to make an Errata for it, they're doing so to clarify the meaning (not needed here) or to change the meaning (only applicable here if Longstrike was meant to affect himself).
Since I have yet to see any formal acknowledgement of a keyword system separate from the Keyword system we have in place in 8th, and so your proposal (while possibly valid, as explained) has no actual evidentiary support within WH40k, I'm going to lean on the side of RAI on this one, and I have a feeling that's going to be the case for just about all T'au players and Tournaments.
Your argument reminds me of me in 4th edition, when technically the Multitracker didn't allow a battlesuit to fire a twin-linked weapon and another weapon (twin-linked or not) due to the Multi-tracker only allowing models to fire two Weapon Systems, rather than two weapons... Regardless of how technically correct I was, no T'au player actually played it RAW because the RAI was so clear.
I think the same is the case here, particularly given that GW bothered to errata Longstrike's wording in a way that would only make sense if it was intended to grant Longstrike the ability to benefit from it.
In other words: Bolded and/or Capitalized or not, it seems blatantly clear that the keyword is intended as a keyword, and Longstrike has the right keyword to benefit.
This has already been errated - he buffs himself. Long strike is basically auto include in a tau list now. OFC I am really happy about this.
I won my first game with tau. 3 Rail and SMS hammerheard (one being long strike) Lots of fire warriors and guns drones, a single 12 man pathfinder with pulse accelerator, 2 commanders (1 4x fussion, 1 4x CIB) and shadowsun and darkstrider. pretty deadly.
Xenomancers wrote: This has already been errated - he buffs himself. Long strike is basically auto include in a tau list now. OFC I am really happy about this.
I won my first game with tau. 3 Rail and SMS hammerheard (one being long strike) Lots of fire warriors and guns drones, a single 12 man pathfinder with pulse accelerator, 2 commanders (1 4x fussion, 1 4x CIB) and shadowsun and darkstrider. pretty deadly.
The technical problem with the errata, which Mirny is having a blast pointing out on every forum I see him frequent (but which, as mentioned, almost certainly will fail to convince anyone to play as may be technically required), is that Longstrike's benefit is limited to <Sept> TX7 Hammerhead Gunships, with the <Sept> formatted as a Keyword (bolded, all capital letters) but the TX7 Hammerhead Gunship without the keyword formatting.z
Longstrike is a Keyword TX7 Hammerhead Gunship, but is not technically titled as a TX7 Hammerhead Gunship (even though he rides a TX7 Hammerhead Gunship and has the Keyword indicating he's a TX7 Hammerhead Gunship).
Supposedly (no personal knowledge one way or the other), Age of Sigmar distinguishes between these two keyword systems, so its actually possible that he's got the RAW and the RAI of it.
I consider that a dubious possibility based on the very errata you mentioned and its superfluous nature IF Mirny is correct... but that is, I believe, an accurate explanation for why this isn't as blatantly obvious as 99.9999% of T'au players have played it post-errata.
I'm going to try to write a draft list to see if the units I like in the army are playable, but I need a few answers. How are Kroots played now ? Back then they were used with the Sniper rounds to deal some damage but weren't advised in CC, are they know ? They still look feeble, even with a Kroot Shaper. The Hounds however look interesting, with only 4 pts per model and the number of attacks they make (especially with a Shaper nearby to reroll 1s to Wound) at S3 AP-1 they look decent enough for their cost. The problem would be to make the Shaper follow their 12" movement. The Krootox riders have a nice gun too and are not too shabby in CC, what do you make of them ? It seems you need to play your Kroots as a big pack of all their units to support each other and tarpit the enemy. I may be wrong of course.
What do you guys use to reliably secure and hold objectives ? I may be starting to play Maelstrom of War some day so being able to quickly switch the objectives I need to hold is crucial. XV8 I suppose ?
Your no-brainer HQ choices ? I'm thinking about having a Cadre Fireblade near some Pulse Rifles FW, and of course Longstrike as my Hammerhead with Railgun. I fail to see the use of Ethereals though, how do you use them ? Could Darkstrider be well used if paired with a full Breacher squad in a Devilfish to drop in the face of the enemy, and pepper them with S6 shots at -1T from Darkstrider ability ? Wounding MEQ on 2+ with troops looks tempting.
What's your main source of Markelights ? My opponent used two teams of Pathfinders but once they died (and that happens fast) he lost all his Markerlights sources. Is it better to have a few Markerlights spread around your army (with drones and other options) or do you use small packs of Pathfinder too ?
What's the purpose of the Piranha ? Apart from carrying a Fusion Blaster I don't see their use to be honest.
If I read right the only source of Snipers are the Sniper Drones ? they don't look amazing but I'm used to the Arquebus Rangers How do you deal with Characters ? You drop a Crisis in their face and Fusion Blaster them to death (it worked with Shadowsun and my Techpriest) ?
Thanks for taking the time to answer my Tau noob questions :p
EDIT: Use of the Shield Drones ? Protecting Characters by tanking in front of them ? Can't see a use for Fire Warriors at all.
Aaranis wrote: I'm going to try to write a draft list to see if the units I like in the army are playable, but I need a few answers. How are Kroots played now ? Back then they were used with the Sniper rounds to deal some damage but weren't advised in CC, are they know ? They still look feeble, even with a Kroot Shaper. The Hounds however look interesting, with only 4 pts per model and the number of attacks they make (especially with a Shaper nearby to reroll 1s to Wound) at S3 AP-1 they look decent enough for their cost. The problem would be to make the Shaper follow their 12" movement. The Krootox riders have a nice gun too and are not too shabby in CC, what do you make of them ? It seems you need to play your Kroots as a big pack of all their units to support each other and tarpit the enemy. I may be wrong of course.
God, I miss the Sniper rounds on our Kroot. We could have had viable T'au snipers, instead of being left with the irrelevant Sniper Drone.
Kroot seem to fulfill two basic roles: Cheap body bubble-wrap for your models you actually care about, and using their 7" Scout move to deny Deepstrike, tie up enemy units as far as possible from T'au-possessed territory, and generally to be disruptive.
Shaper's useful if you plan on having a lot of Kroot together, but unless you've got multiple units all within buffing range, you're probably better off just buying more basic kroot.
Hounds are surprisingly efficient in CQC for their points, and with their speed, make for one of the only half-decent CQC units the T'au have. Having a SHaper nearby for rerolling 1s to wound is nice, but with the S3 of the Hound, not terribly necessary or effective as a boost (you're generally only wounding on 4s or 5s anyway, so you're not rerolling more than about 1 in 6 shots and that reroll fails most of the time).
Carnivores, while improved in CQC generally in 8th, are still mediocre at best and shouldn't be counted on to win CQC, just to tie up/deny shooting and assaulting for enemy units.
What do you guys use to reliably secure and hold objectives ? I may be starting to play Maelstrom of War some day so being able to quickly switch the objectives I need to hold is crucial. XV8 I suppose?
I like Stealth Suits with a DC and Gun Drones, for their respectable speed (8" plus they have assault weapons, so +1d6" isn't as painful), their durability (either for their points, or due to being able to pass off the worst ablative wounds to drones), and their firepower (Gun Drones are practically the definition of dakka baseline, and the DC helps a lot, with the Stealth able to bring the occasional Fusion for heavy vehicle work), and their bodycount (Stealth are fairly cheap for what they do, and Drones are fairly cheap to put bodies on the table, and controlling objectives is all about having more bodies than the opponent.
Vespids are also decent, having even greater speed, comparable firepower, and nearly comparable bodycount (averaged out), though they're less durable than the Stealth Suit/Drone combo.
Piranhas can be a emergency objective-holder, given its speed and assault weapons, as well as its ability to become 3 models instead of 1 (by popping the Drones out).
I know some people are having good success with Breachers in Devilfish, and I'd imagine that combo should work just fine in both clearing out enemies on the objective and temporarily holding the objective through bodycount. Strikers could potentially work in the same role.
Oddly, Commanders and XV9s make half-way decent objective holders in an emergency for the first three turns, through judicious use of a Manta Drop - XV9s especially, given they are relatively cheap, can bring surprising amounts of firepower on their own, and can be accompanied by 4 Gun Drones. Either way, that's 3-5 bodies that can either deepstrike near an objective and annihilate the enemy (so another of your models can actually claim the objective) or, if there's no enemy on the objective, deepstrike directly on the objective you need to control.
Coldstar Commanders are kickass late-game objective grabbers, and they're awesome for the rest of the game too. There's a player in ATT running no less than 9 Coldstar Commanders in a single list, and its hilariously effective.
Remoras could make decent objective-grabbers, given their high levels of mobility and the lack of a restriction to 90 degree turns, but the minimum movement may end up forbidding you from using it to claim a nearby objective at all, which could be problematic, and Remoras seem a bit paltry on their contributions in other aspects, so... meh.
Your no-brainer HQ choices ? I'm thinking about having a Cadre Fireblade near some Pulse Rifles FW, and of course Longstrike as my Hammerhead with Railgun. I fail to see the use of Ethereals though, how do you use them ? Could Darkstrider be well used if paired with a full Breacher squad in a Devilfish to drop in the face of the enemy, and pepper them with S6 shots at -1T from Darkstrider ability ? Wounding MEQ on 2+ with troops looks tempting.
A Fireblade is a wonderful thing to have, and has featured in just about every list (I pretty much always have Fire Warriors or Gun Drones in my list to get boosted), as has a Commander. Ethereals are not really a necessity depending on how you construct your list - for the most party, you can make a T'au army that is practically immune to most Morale even without an Ethereal through MSU or choosing particular army choices... but if you start getting into larger infantry squads, the Ethereal's leadership bubble can be a significant boost (particularly if paired with the +1 Ld bubble choice from a Warlord).
Drones in particular are vulnerable to Leadership (only the Kroot have it as bad), so if your list features a lot of Drones (and frankly, it probably should... so much dakka), an Ethereal is worth it for that alone. I've used a backfield Ethereal to good effect (for the leadership, with the Elemental boost as frosting on the cake), and once used a Drone-riding Ethereal to babysit some Gun Drone squads outside of the firebase, since the Ethereal can easily keep up.
Longstrike is good on his own, and makes subsequent Hammerheads not-quite-as-terrible, but he hasn't always made it onto a list (when my list provides for Anti-Tank through other means, like Fusion Commanders, Stormsurges, and Broadsides).
What's your main source of Markelights ? My opponent used two teams of Pathfinders but once they died (and that happens fast) he lost all his Markerlights sources. Is it better to have a few Markerlights spread around your army (with drones and other options) or do you use small packs of Pathfinder too ?
I like to spread my MLs around - one or two ML drones in a large Tactical Drone squad (preferrably near a DC), two or three mimimum-sized pathfinder squads with max Rail Rifles and Ion Rifles (leaving 2 ML Pathfinders per squad), etc.
I used to take Skyrays in 7th for ML, but they seem to be pretty much worthless in 8e, so alas.
I've found that relying on more than the bare minimum for MLs (2 if I'm using Seeker/Destroyer missiles, 1 if not) hasn't really panned out in game, given the firepower you inevitably give up in order to be able to take 5+ ML hits on particular targets while also putting 1 on any other targets worth shooting. Its nice when it happens, but its not reliable enough to count on.
With the exception of the initial Seeker/Destroyer Missile dump, it just hasn't been worth the price (in points and opportunity costs) to reliably get the capstone ML boost.
What's the purpose of the Piranha ? Apart from carrying a Fusion Blaster I don't see their use to be honest.
Not the best unit we have, but somewhat useful (for its speed/durability alone) for objective grabbing and/or tying up an enemy Shooting/Assault unit for a turn or two (The Twin Assault Cannon Razorback is a lot less dangerous when it is forced to Fall Back, and thus prevented from shooting for a turn).
Not the best unit, but it has its place. Most of the time, though, I'd rather have Vespid.
If I read right the only source of Snipers are the Sniper Drones ? they don't look amazing but I'm used to the Arquebus Rangers How do you deal with Characters ? You drop a Crisis in their face and Fusion Blaster them to death (it worked with Shadowsun and my Techpriest) ?
Yep. Sniper Drones suck. Characters are dealt with through Dakka and Positioning (can't screen a character with bubblewrap if the bubblewrap is loosely rendered into its constituent atoms), because relying on Snipers would take either all 6 game turns or too many points (and waaaaaay too many $) to be worth the effort.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my Tau noob questions :p
My pleasure!
Please, above all else, take any given player's advice (my own included) with heaping barrels full of .
Edit:
Use of the Shield Drones ? Protecting Characters by tanking in front of them ? Can't see a use for Fire Warriors at all.
Shield Drones are practically useless compared to Gun Drones - aside from when faced against a stupid opponent (i.e. when your opponent shoots something other than AP0/D1 weapons at your Drone squad), they will NEVER confer as much of a benefit as Gun Drones will. Do not take them, and harshly judge (or pity - depends on your preference when dealing with the mentally handicapped) anyone who does take them.
Fire Warriors are outshone in terms of dakka and durability by Gun Drones, so why would you take them?
Well, they actually have some benefits that Drones do not.
As infantry, Fire Warriors can benefit from Ethereal Invocations and from the Pulse Accelerator Drone. This gives Pulse Rifle strikers an even greater reach, and helps bridge the gap in firepower compared to Gun Drones.
Fire Warriors have the Bonding Knife benefit, and so are less affected by morale tests than Drones (even with an Ethereal nearby).
Fire Warriors can CHOOSE WHO THEY TARGET, and so you won't be FORCED to waste pulse fire on a target that isn't an efficient target for pulse fire, which you might be forced to do if using Gun Drones for dakka due to Threat Identification Protocols.
Finally, Fire Warriors are troops, and that will generally translate into more CP.
As an army, T'au often don't really need a LOT of CP (1 point per turn for rerolls is really all you'd ever use effectively, unless you've got large units without an Ethereal to mitigate leadership issues), but it certainly doesn't hurt, and its best to use only so many kroot.
...So they aren't useless, and they've performed reasonably well as part of a mini firebase in my army. I do generally prefer Gun Drones overall (damn discs nearly compete with Conscripts in the sheer dakka department, even point-for-point), but not to the exclusion of Troops.
Gamgee wrote: Big european ETC is in and the Tau ranking was getting curb stomped. Other than them overall ranking really low I can't find out much else about it other than that Team England took the win and deathwing flyer spam list everyone is worried about won there as well. 8th edition is clearly not as balanced as they thought.
Are you referring to ETC singles? The team tournament is a bad judge of codex strength as it depends so much on whether the Tau player was attacking or defending. Also, I concur with the above poster regarding the Tau list in the spreadsheet, far from optimized.
Thanks for all the answers ! I'll be uploading the draft as soon as I complete it, you'll tell me what you think of that.
So, Kroots are effectively nice to distract some heat from your own guys, and hold their own in CC against regular infantry. I forgot about their scout move, it makes them really more interesting that way (I wish our Skitarii would've kept it in 8th too :( ), it allows for moving to a better cover than your deployment zone would allow, while closing up faster on your enemy or objectives. I'll consider about Hounds but they're really expensive money-wise, for a low cost in points. I may have to skip them for that reason. I guess I'll get a box of Kroots, they'll probably see some use and they're not expensive in points after all. They still shoot decently, like bolters, that's some extra dakka. Any thoughts about the Krootox Riders ?
I love the models for the Stealh Suits so I'll have to buy some, plus, having a 2+ in cover is nice to have, and I think their weapons are good, especially with Markerlights (got a 5 man squad in cover wiped out by them in one volley). But their drones can't Infiltrate with them, correct ? So you'll have to wait for the drones to get to your position before buffing them ? Still, their reputation as dakka dealers seems well established.
Vespids looks like a must take in 8th, really nice guns and great mobility, everyone needs some mobility. I'll get a box too.
I'll have to study a bit for the gear configuration on the Crisis suits, I intend on buying two Start Collecting boxes so that'll be 6 suits, I suppose magnetising them in some way could be nice ?
Oh I didn't look up the flyers, I don't like flyers at all in 40K, I don't think they have their place in these games. So I'll pass on the Remora personally.
I'm thinking about a use for the Ethereals, support for a Pathfinder team with Ion and Rail rifles, and a 10 man Pulse Rifle squad, to reroll 1s to Hit and all that supported by the Pulse Accelerator and Grav-inhibitor Drone. Gonna set all of these in a nice ruin of course.
I miswrote my last sentence, I was wondering about the use of Shield Drones in a Fire Warrior squad, not the use of the Fire Warriors I love them and want to build my lists with lots of them.
Gamgee wrote: Big european ETC is in and the Tau ranking was getting curb stomped. Other than them overall ranking really low I can't find out much else about it other than that Team England took the win and deathwing flyer spam list everyone is worried about won there as well. 8th edition is clearly not as balanced as they thought.
Are you referring to ETC singles? The team tournament is a bad judge of codex strength as it depends so much on whether the Tau player was attacking or defending. Also, I concur with the above poster regarding the Tau list in the spreadsheet, far from optimized.
You can find more info on their facebook page about round breakdowns and how much of each army made it to the next round ect. Not good looking at all though.
While I agree its sad to see tau continuing to struggle in large tournaments, without knowing list specifics its tough to judge. "Drone Heavy" can mean a lot of things and I don't think what was in that picture looks good.
Drones are good but pure drones are not the answer and that list (granted we can only see what is in that single picture) looks like it needed something to hit harder than S5.
I think we as tau players need to get out of the mindset that we are a purely shooting army. I have had decent success actually charging units and either forcing them to fall back or getting to use the fly keyword to hide in combat and then shoot again. We can't dance around with JSJ but we can dance in and out of combat.
I'll wait until the next big tournament. Tau are going to get creamed, and then the moving goalposts will tell me to wait until the NEXT tournament. Until the sun explodes.
At what point do we NOT have a sizeable sample size? Hundreds and hundreds of games have been played now both casual and in competitive and a clear consensus is the Tau need fixing. That is a fact.The data supports it and it has since 8th leaked games weeks before launch. Now what needs to be established and will take more time is what about them needs fixing?
Anyone who disagrees at this point they don't at the very minimum need some small small buffs (but probably much more) is being wilfully ignorant of the actual tested data.
I'm going to be here in a few weeks and months like clockwork saying the same thing no doubt. If it was any other faction people would be jumping up and down to have them buffed with barely any resistance the proof saying otherwise, but when the Tau are clearly in need no one wants it. It's a ridiculous double standard.
I almost feel like I am arguing why I am playing Tau like I'm on trial for just choosing Tau and my real guilt is playing Tau. I know a lot of frustrated Tau players out there feeling that same resentment.
Aaranis wrote: I'm going to try to write a draft list to see if the units I like in the army are playable, but I need a few answers. How are Kroots played now ? Back then they were used with the Sniper rounds to deal some damage but weren't advised in CC, are they know ? They still look feeble, even with a Kroot Shaper. The Hounds however look interesting, with only 4 pts per model and the number of attacks they make (especially with a Shaper nearby to reroll 1s to Wound) at S3 AP-1 they look decent enough for their cost. The problem would be to make the Shaper follow their 12" movement. The Krootox riders have a nice gun too and are not too shabby in CC, what do you make of them ? It seems you need to play your Kroots as a big pack of all their units to support each other and tarpit the enemy. I may be wrong of course.
What do you guys use to reliably secure and hold objectives ? I may be starting to play Maelstrom of War some day so being able to quickly switch the objectives I need to hold is crucial. XV8 I suppose ?
Your no-brainer HQ choices ? I'm thinking about having a Cadre Fireblade near some Pulse Rifles FW, and of course Longstrike as my Hammerhead with Railgun. I fail to see the use of Ethereals though, how do you use them ? Could Darkstrider be well used if paired with a full Breacher squad in a Devilfish to drop in the face of the enemy, and pepper them with S6 shots at -1T from Darkstrider ability ? Wounding MEQ on 2+ with troops looks tempting.
What's your main source of Markelights ? My opponent used two teams of Pathfinders but once they died (and that happens fast) he lost all his Markerlights sources. Is it better to have a few Markerlights spread around your army (with drones and other options) or do you use small packs of Pathfinder too ?
What's the purpose of the Piranha ? Apart from carrying a Fusion Blaster I don't see their use to be honest.
If I read right the only source of Snipers are the Sniper Drones ? they don't look amazing but I'm used to the Arquebus Rangers How do you deal with Characters ? You drop a Crisis in their face and Fusion Blaster them to death (it worked with Shadowsun and my Techpriest) ?
Thanks for taking the time to answer my Tau noob questions :p
EDIT: Use of the Shield Drones ? Protecting Characters by tanking in front of them ? Can't see a use for Fire Warriors at all.
Kroot are like... mid tier
Still not spectacular, but slightly above garbage.
Carnivores are similar to an Ork Boy... with bad leadership, and less attacks.
Hounds are a little better, but they still won't really do a huge amount during combat phases.
Shapers are feel like they were overnerfed, there isn't much reason to bring him.
Krootox are actually pretty great since they cost so little points, but crazy expensive irl...
Krootox Kroot Gun is kinda of like a 24" Missile Pod that has the option of getting 48" range at half effectiveness.
Considering the body only costs 10 points...
Let me phrase this another way...
3 Krootox = 102 points, brings 9 wounds and 3x 24" Missile Pods
Crisis Suit with 3 Missile Pods = 114 points, and only has 3 wounds.
I personally go heavy on the Fire Warriors, so I generally use them to hold backline stuff and they shoot 30" pot shots down range. Deeper ones tends to be Crisis Suit jobs usually.
Monat (Commander) his DPR is absolutely insane, don't be surprised if you see half a dozen Monat's in a list...
Cadre Fireblade is also a fairly solid choice for his low cost, BS2 ML and crazy short range potential he brings to Fire Warriors.
Ethereals lost their best ability (additional shot with Fire), so now their only good support is 6+++ to allies in the area. They are vastly more playable now that they don't give additional penalties for dying.
Aun'shi especially might actually see some table time for the first time ever...
Darkstrider + 5" close to enemies + Devilfish + Full Unit of Breachers...
Literally 250 points to do what... Pop some Tacticals? Altho you will find my advice to be significantly more cynical than many others.
Pathfinder and Cadre Fireblade
Minimal Squads of Pathfinders are optimal, if you want some Dakka you could bring their Rifles, but nothing wrong with a min squad or 2 of Just ML Pathfinders for 40pts a pop.
I mean the Piranha is 12 BS4 S5 Shots for 70 points, That's better than 3 Heavy Bolters on a Land Speeder for cheaper. Even Stealth Suit team pays 90 points for the 12 shots.
So Piranhas are a perfectly acceptable options for an extremely mobile little skimmer.
Sniper Drones are actually like the 3rd best Snipers in the game.
If you ignore how insane Ratlings are, Sniper Drones are one of the best Snipers in the game.
The problem is that even while being one of the Bests... they are still garbage.
So, if you have a character hiding in the middle of an army... Blow up the army, or deep strike in the gaps.
Shield Drones were bad but playable until the FAQ made them complete garbage. Just set a flower on the grave and move on.
Oh, and Drones can Infiltrate/Deep Strike with the unit that brings them.
Aaranis wrote: Vespids looks like a must take in 8th, really nice guns and great mobility, everyone needs some mobility. I'll get a box too.
I'll have to study a bit for the gear configuration on the Crisis suits, I intend on buying two Start Collecting boxes so that'll be 6 suits, I suppose magnetising them in some way could be nice ?
Oh I didn't look up the flyers, I don't like flyers at all in 40K, I don't think they have their place in these games. So I'll pass on the Remora personally.
I'm thinking about a use for the Ethereals, support for a Pathfinder team with Ion and Rail rifles, and a 10 man Pulse Rifle squad, to reroll 1s to Hit and all that supported by the Pulse Accelerator and Grav-inhibitor Drone. Gonna set all of these in a nice ruin of course.
I miswrote my last sentence, I was wondering about the use of Shield Drones in a Fire Warrior squad, not the use of the Fire Warriors I love them and want to build my lists with lots of them.
Vespids are great, really really great in 8e
Crisis Suit best loadout is the CIB+ATS
After that Flamers and Fusion Blasters are popular
Plasma Rifles are still viable, but generally fill a similar role to CIB Finally there is the Missile Pod+ATS which is expensive and slightly inefficient, but rather safe.
Remember Drones don't need to stay with who brought them.
Accelerator Drones don't provide much support for Pathfinders, but are AMAZING for Fire Warriors.
Altho, Drones that are brought together, must stay together...
Gamgee wrote: I'll wait until the next big tournament. Tau are going to get creamed, and then the moving goalposts will tell me to wait until the NEXT tournament. Until the sun explodes.
At what point do we NOT have a sizeable sample size? Hundreds and hundreds of games have been played now both casual and in competitive and a clear consensus is the Tau need fixing. That is a fact.The data supports it and it has since 8th leaked games weeks before launch. Now what needs to be established and will take more time is what about them needs fixing?
Anyone who disagrees at this point they don't at the very minimum need some small small buffs (but probably much more) is being wilfully ignorant of the actual tested data.
I'm going to be here in a few weeks and months like clockwork saying the same thing no doubt. If it was any other faction people would be jumping up and down to have them buffed with barely any resistance the proof saying otherwise, but when the Tau are clearly in need no one wants it. It's a ridiculous double standard.
I almost feel like I am arguing why I am playing Tau like I'm on trial for just choosing Tau and my real guilt is playing Tau. I know a lot of frustrated Tau players out there feeling that same resentment.
Oh I know the feeling of resentment quite well. Once had a guy refuse to play me simply because I was playing tau and he "heard" that we were broken. Didn't know anything about me or my list and still refused. Most frustrating and disheartening thing I have ever heard. Tau get a bad rep for some reason we are "unfun" to play against, JSJ was one of the most hated mechanics of 40k even though it was originally part of what gave tau their identity. We were an army that relied on synergy and movement to win not raw stats or huge numbers. But those mechanics have been deemed "bad" and as such we got hit hard with nerfs. Tau can still win games and be on the fringe of competitiveness but at the current rate we won't win tournaments (but we didn't win tournaments in 7th either, no riptide wing does not count as tau.)
They were basically soft banned here for a long time since no one wanted to play them. Well at least we understand each other on that.
I think as the meta solidifies we're going to see the Tau solidify as a low tier race even in casual games. Casual players always have a hard time catching up to the competitive scene for numerous reasons but they usually do at least a little. In theory could chaos marines win last edition (Pre Magnus)? Yes, but in practice it was a lot less common.
Here's hoping we can help people see reason. I think of all three players in this. The public, frontline and the pro playes, and GW that GW has the best bet to step back and rationally look at the actual results for the races and see for themselves that neither side is always correct and that in this case despite the infamy and vitriol the Tau are currently in need of some buffs. I hope we get our codex this year (doubt it since space marine mania) and that when we do we see some sensible buffs. I don't likewise wan't to be too powerful again either. Just the nice Goldilocks zone.
If changes come to Tau at all, they won't be before either the codex or the Chapter Approved book (due to the end of the year) - unless, of course, terrible typos like the AX-1-0 not being able to fire its main guns.
Until there, all we can do is to test, test and do more testing until we find what can deal with whatever the enemy throws at us.
If even after 3-4 months nothing changes much, then yeah we'll be able to have enough data to ask for changes. The game is (officially) 3 weeks old!
What I can agree, though, is that we don't have the feel of 'quality of shooting' we had back in 7e, in comparison to the 'volume of shooting' from Astra Militarum. The new markerlights don't match well with the BS4+. Either should change, but I rather test it even more than ask for it right now
I'd really just like to see marker lights change - they don't have to go back to what they were. Right now they are really just used to allow you to overcharge CIB and ION cannons without fear off too many mortal wounds on your commands/ION heads. Totally skipping out on markerlights isn't a terrible idea if you aren't using those weapon systems but if you are using fire warriros you might as well bring a few units to get some pulse drones out there. If you are taking a few units - you might as well go for the ability to put 5 markers on a target with some consistency. This will at least give you the ability to reposition your heavy weapons for no pentalty AND give you some increased chance of hitting. At least pathfinders perform a few functions instead of just one now and are pretty cheap.
For a markerlight change - I'd be happy if a few of the levels were removed and 3 was the highest level - giving you everything 5 gives you now. That would make it possible to reliably light up 2 targets and focus fire. 5 just seems to be a little extreme.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vector Strike wrote: If changes come to Tau at all, they won't be before either the codex or the Chapter Approved book (due to the end of the year) - unless, of course, terrible typos like the AX-1-0 not being able to fire its main guns.
Until there, all we can do is to test, test and do more testing until we find what can deal with whatever the enemy throws at us.
If even after 3-4 months nothing changes much, then yeah we'll be able to have enough data to ask for changes. The game is (officially) 3 weeks old!
What I can agree, though, is that we don't have the feel of 'quality of shooting' we had back in 7e, in comparison to the 'volume of shooting' from Astra Militarum. The new markerlights don't match well with the BS4+. Either should change, but I rather test it even more than ask for it right now
Well - true the quality of shooting has gone down minus markerlights increasing BS. Tau have losts of heavy weapon options on bs2+ platforms that are survivable - at least we got that.
In terms of whats good in tau - I don't think the majority of players can actually field an optimized list yet. Tau used to be triptide or bust - since that's busted - it will take time to get the good units painted and assembled.
Aaranis wrote: I'm going to try to write a draft list to see if the units I like in the army are playable, but I need a few answers. How are Kroots played now ? Back then they were used with the Sniper rounds to deal some damage but weren't advised in CC, are they know ? They still look feeble, even with a Kroot Shaper. The Hounds however look interesting, with only 4 pts per model and the number of attacks they make (especially with a Shaper nearby to reroll 1s to Wound) at S3 AP-1 they look decent enough for their cost. The problem would be to make the Shaper follow their 12" movement. The Krootox riders have a nice gun too and are not too shabby in CC, what do you make of them ? It seems you need to play your Kroots as a big pack of all their units to support each other and tarpit the enemy. I may be wrong of course.
What do you guys use to reliably secure and hold objectives ? I may be starting to play Maelstrom of War some day so being able to quickly switch the objectives I need to hold is crucial. XV8 I suppose ?
Your no-brainer HQ choices ? I'm thinking about having a Cadre Fireblade near some Pulse Rifles FW, and of course Longstrike as my Hammerhead with Railgun. I fail to see the use of Ethereals though, how do you use them ? Could Darkstrider be well used if paired with a full Breacher squad in a Devilfish to drop in the face of the enemy, and pepper them with S6 shots at -1T from Darkstrider ability ? Wounding MEQ on 2+ with troops looks tempting.
What's your main source of Markelights ? My opponent used two teams of Pathfinders but once they died (and that happens fast) he lost all his Markerlights sources. Is it better to have a few Markerlights spread around your army (with drones and other options) or do you use small packs of Pathfinder too ?
What's the purpose of the Piranha ? Apart from carrying a Fusion Blaster I don't see their use to be honest.
If I read right the only source of Snipers are the Sniper Drones ? they don't look amazing but I'm used to the Arquebus Rangers How do you deal with Characters ? You drop a Crisis in their face and Fusion Blaster them to death (it worked with Shadowsun and my Techpriest) ?
Thanks for taking the time to answer my Tau noob questions :p
EDIT: Use of the Shield Drones ? Protecting Characters by tanking in front of them ? Can't see a use for Fire Warriors at all.
Answered by veteran players, so, I'll take a swing at this one from a wildly different angle ... I've always been a Marine player first and a Tyranid player first, but I took a couple of editions off to do other things and am now on the way back. While I'm looking at updating my bugs, and finally getting around to the Ork army I've had slowly building for decades, I'm now glancing between Eldar and Tau ... and hearing that the Tau are 'bad' is making me look that way harder. What can I say? I like the challenge. The expecrts here know their stuff, but, my brain operates weirdly, so I see a few things that they don't (And don't see many things that they do ... the tactical advice I read keeps being super helpful!) so, here's my view on things which, I fully concede, could be COMPLETELY WRONG, but, that's how I used to play all my armies, so.
Kroot! The basic Kroot I don't care for. I know Termagants and I know Hormagaunts, and brother, these ain't either. The gun's decent, if not as good as a Tau rifle, but the statline is *horrid* ... T3, 1 wound, sv 6+? That's a Termagant, and we pay 4 pts each for a reason. The Stealthy Hunter move is useful to stop deep strike trickery, and at 60 pts for a unit, they're dirt cheap, but keep in mind that you can get a unit of Fire Warriors or Pathfinders for 40 pts who come with better firepower, better Leadership, and a better armor save. Kroot die if you glance at them funny while Fire Warriors can take a shot or two. If they had some kind of stealth rule, like -1 to-be hit, or +1 armor save while in cover, I'd happily use them, but as it stands, they're just a tad falling shy on holding up their end of the deal, IMHO. KrrotOx, in contrast, are lovely things, a fantastic unit at 34 points for a T 5, 3 wound Autocannon-like shot. It can lope into redeployment quickly, but mainly you want to park a trio in cover on turn 1, then plink away at transports. The double-tap at 24" is respectable and gaining a reroll via markerlights really ups their game. Just keep them focused on medium machines, like Rhinos and Dreadnoughts, or medium creatures (Tyranid Warriors or Carnifexi) rather than heavy targets and they're golden. Kroot Hounds, meanwhile, are super effective... remember how I mentioned I know hormagaunts? These are hormagaunts. Quick as a whip, melee-oriented, in-your-face guys with a goodly number of attacks who will die, and die in droves, these guys are an ace unit to cut through enemy lines and tie up all kinds of gunsquads. Oh, they're gonna die, and die HARD, but they'll give you a round or two of chewing before they go and at 48 points for a full unit, you can stack 'em all *day*. The financial burden will break you tho. They need to churn out a KrootHound plastic set before you can really dig in, here. (Important note! The reroll charges on a wounded unit? This is one of the combined arms things that they're pushing heavily this edition and where Tau excel. Move in with hounds, light up with Fire Warriors, send the hounds in on what's left.)
Reliably take and hold objectives is hard. The best unit for that are Crisis suits, IMHO, who have the toughness, armor, and wounds to get stuck in and live, but who are quite expensive. Stealth Suits are a bit more fragile but harder to hit and a fraction of the cost, so are what I'll be using to occupy areas, I think, but keep in mind that they can't *clear* an area, so need help, where Crisis Suits can do both. Breachers are the best at *taking* an objective but can't *hold* it... those guns are nearly melee weapons and standard anti-trooper firepower will shred them too quickly. Again, you might be looking at a combined arms approach, where Breachers in a Devilfish roll in and clear out the enemy in one turn, then the next they load back up and scoot towards a new target while Stealth Suits (who are astoundingly fast!) woosh over to hold the now-empty area. The other option is to use plain ol' fire Warriors in a Devilfish, who have plenty of firepower to bristle out and a large unit, if in cover, can survive for a while, but they can only do flank or rear objectives, not central or hostile. I keep looking for a Dreadnought-ish weapon in the Tau arsenal and a Broadside almost fits the bill, but lacks the melee strength you need to really grind it out. That said, one with High Yield Missile Pods and two Smart Missile Systems is holy Hell on a dug-in unit to force them out of an objective. Just too slow and vulnerable to melee combat (The suit that don't fly!) to press the advantage. I'll keep hunting for this one.
HQ choices, since I plan on using a LOT of Fire Warrios, is certainly 1-3 Fireblades, each being dirt-cheap and able to assist the Warrior baseline, with larger games sporting a Commander for mobile work. I know I should be on the "Spam fusion commanders!" train, but it doesn't sit right with me for several reasons, The Ethereal is one I want to try out... fragile and vulnerable, doesn't directly contribute to a fight, but the bubbles he has are versatile and cover several units ... combine with a Fireblade, you can have 24 Fire Warriors triple-tapping and rerolling 1's, for instance, and that gets scary fast. Sense of Stone also looks useful for when you have to deal with a hot house, so an Ethereal who can move in behind a unit (of, say, Stealth Suits!) at an objective and help hold the line, both passing out a better Leadership and staving off wounds? Anything that keeps more guns standing is a good thing, IMHO. Seems like they're only to be used in 2000 pt battles to me, since they're supposed to be rare (Like, one per cadre rare!) but, I could be wrong.
Markerlights are a touchy subject around here, it seems. Lets take a look at what the chart gives you right quick:
1 light = Reroll to-hit rolls of 1 for Tau units attacking this unit this turn. Note that this is to-hit blank, not to-hit shooting. If you need to melee with your suits, light up the target first. With a 4+ to-hit , you get 3 hits, 2 misses, and a "Try again!" which has a 50-50 chance. Not as good as a +1 to-hit, but half that. Normally, 12 shots is 6 hits, with a marker light, it's 7. Not huge, but handy.
2 lights = Better missiles. Not a big deal.
3 lights = avoiding the to-hit penalty for assault with assault weapons or moving with heavy weapons. Situationally useful but not what I'd build a force around. Good option if you need to redeploy often or if you love you some Hammerheads.
4 lights = Ignore cover ... cover is much more rare in this edition and it cam make a difference, Use this to root a unit out of hiding near an objective or to erase a long-range unit (Devastators!) who are hiding somewhere out back.
5 lights = The money shot.
With this in mind, IMHO, you're better served sharing the lights instead of focusing them, and something like 6-8 per thousand points clicks in my head as the way to go. This lets you dink away 3 units a turn, if you can't combine firepower on a target, or pour it on to 1 unit that needs to *die*. Target transports early, then switch to threatening units afterwards, with turns 4+ probably being focus-fire at units on objectives. In addition to the Fireblades I'll be using (who each carry one), one Pathfinder units of 6 per thousand points looks good. Keep them back behind the main line (they have 36" range after all!) so that they don't fall over with that poor armor save (and go in cover if possible!) and either split fire, sticking 2 each on three targets, or focusing 3-4 (with the Fireblade) when you need mass firepower on one target. They're dirt cheap units that are annoying but protected. As a bonus, the keep bad guys from dropping within 9" of them, a big, big issue this edition. Several small units of guys, even just 6 Firewarriors footslogging it, scattered around for safety goes far and filling up larger numbers of units is a *reward*, not a penalty these days. (Aside from kill point missions. Those are gonna hurt.) ... forcing bad guys to stay 18" away from your juicy targets is huge, and if you can make them drop in the open, rather than in cover, with good placement, you can turn and erase them afterwards.
The Piranha has traditionally been used like similar units in other armies... stick a Melta on it, fly up, kill something (don't roll a '1'!) and then die, messily. This is the established wisdom of the Grand Tournaments and has never been questioned. So, of course, I do it wrong. Three of 'em (brought alone, not in a unit, because, again, filling slots is your friend!) each with a burst cannon per thousand points is just the best of things. These aren't line breakers or character-killers ... these are bullies. Their job is simple ... take the flanks, find small infantry units, and punish them badly. 12 shots at 4+, Strength 5, AP 0 is about the same as 12 Fire Warriors for around the same cost as 8, but with a tad less wounds and a much higher Toughness. They can withstand small arms fire, or survive *one* anti-tank hit, while shoving wimpy units around. They can charge into melee and won't *do* anything but the other unit won't be shooting for a round and, if needed, you can just fly off on your turn and do it again. Since you can take one anti-tank hit if needed (Overwatch to-hit at a 6, wound on a 3+, but unlikely to do 6 wounds in one hit), they can even harass tanks, keeping them from firing (Hello, Mr. Land Raider!), darting away in your movement phase, letting you shoot the target in the shooting, then charge into them again with a different unit because you brought three and you're a bully. Piranha are also surprisingly fat units and, of note, is that you can't move within an inch of a model, and enemy models block LoS. Use those wide wingspans to choke up fire lanes, putting yourbetter mobility and concentrated firepower on display while half the enemy force is reduced to shooting at little fish. These guys are the unsung heroes of the Codex but you have to keep in mind that while they're tougher than infantry, they're not as hard as tanks. They're not fatties, they're chubbies. Don't ask them to suck up too much pain but find weak little units and go pick on them until they run home and call the Emperor for how mean you were. Just all kinds of versatile and useful. Again, all Burst Cannons, because I am weird, and, again, note that markerlights let you reroll 1's in melee if you need to charge. (And with these, Stealth Suits, and Crisis suits, you may be charging a lot more than you think!)
Oh hey, here's you a fun trick. When one of your units is in melee, the enemy is going to want to charge it because Tau suck in melee. Thanks to the Greater Good, nearby units can fire into those new charges. So, if a Stealth unit has ganged p on a Tactical Squad, and anther comes to help, feel free to have your nearby units melt that second squad before they pick on the 'wimpy Tau' ... also remember that a model armed with a pistol *can* shoot while in melee during its shooting phase. You don't have many, but every single Shas'ui leading a unit of Fire Warriors can take one (at a cost of 0!) so you might as well. Sure, a single Str 5 shot isn't likely to turn the tide of battle, but it can't hurt and, again, it's free A unit *not* in combat can also fire pistols *into* a melee combat, so feel free to help your brothers out by peppering a couple shots into a scrum. It's for the greater good, after all.
Lastly, the Sunshark Bomber. You didn't mention it and it doesn't come up often while talking about the good units, but, I want to mention the thing because, woo buddy, is it sexy. At 169 points it'll bend your budget, and the raw firepower doesn't look like much, but it has one trick that doctors don't want you to know ab... sorry, glitched for a second there. The Pulse Bomb. The Bomb works as well if you have 1 wound left or 12, since it doesn't use a ballistic skill, but instead has a flat 5+ per MODEL, or 4+ against infantry, ignoring all modifiers. Make the roll, inflict a mortal wound. That's no tohit roll, no wounding roll, no saving throw, no invulnerable save, just unh! eat it. Tops out at 10 models in a unit but this means that, in the movement phase, it can reduce any normal infantry unit from 10 models to 5 and that's gonna be a rough morale test right off the bat. Eldar unit under Conceal and ith their own -1 to-hit on top of that? Bomb it, half gone. Unit of Assault Marines with flamers sitting on an objective? Bomb it, half gone. Big fat unit of Ork Lootas or Mek Guns? Bomb it, half gone, and morale'll take the rest. They're infantry-erasing MACHINES but they're fragile against anti-tank weaponry and about useless if shooting at vehicles themselves, but, oh mama, knocking out half a squad in the movement phase is all kinds of sexy and leaves you with all kinds of followup options.
Lastly, don't be afraid to try new approache. Charge with your suits, use markerlights in small numbers, embrace the combined arms thought process, and always remember that filling up your slots just means you can get more Command Points and Command Points are your friend. At a thousand, you should never have less than 7 (And 9 is within reach!) while two thousand should always see you at 12.
There is also no valid reason why they would have changed the wording for Longstrike's ability through errata EXCEPT to allow Longstrike to benefit from his own special rule. It being extraneous is not enough, since it would be unnecessary to modify for the game to play as GW wants it to play. I have a hard time believing that we're supposed to believe that GW is so obsessed over making sure their language is efficient that they'll take the time, effort, and space to correct language that doesn't actually need to be corrected - if they're bothering to make an Errata for it, they're doing so to clarify the meaning (not needed here) or to change the meaning (only applicable here if Longstrike was meant to affect himself).
Since I have yet to see any formal acknowledgement of a keyword system separate from the Keyword system we have in place in 8th, and so your proposal (while possibly valid, as explained) has no actual evidentiary support within WH40k, I'm going to lean on the side of RAI on this one, and I have a feeling that's going to be the case for just about all T'au players and Tournaments.
Your argument reminds me of me in 4th edition, when technically the Multitracker didn't allow a battlesuit to fire a twin-linked weapon and another weapon (twin-linked or not) due to the Multi-tracker only allowing models to fire two Weapon Systems, rather than two weapons... Regardless of how technically correct I was, no T'au player actually played it RAW because the RAI was so clear.
I think the same is the case here, particularly given that GW bothered to errata Longstrike's wording in a way that would only make sense if it was intended to grant Longstrike the ability to benefit from it.
In other words: Bolded and/or Capitalized or not, it seems blatantly clear that the keyword is intended as a keyword, and Longstrike has the right keyword to benefit.
The technical problem with the errata, which Mirny is having a blast pointing out on every forum I see him frequent (but which, as mentioned, almost certainly will fail to convince anyone to play as may be technically required), is that Longstrike's benefit is limited to <Sept> TX7 Hammerhead Gunships, with the <Sept> formatted as a Keyword (bolded, all capital letters) but the TX7 Hammerhead Gunship without the keyword formatting.z
Longstrike is a Keyword TX7 Hammerhead Gunship, but is not technically titled as a TX7 Hammerhead Gunship (even though he rides a TX7 Hammerhead Gunship and has the Keyword indicating he's a TX7 Hammerhead Gunship).
Supposedly (no personal knowledge one way or the other), Age of Sigmar distinguishes between these two keyword systems, so its actually possible that he's got the RAW and the RAI of it.
I consider that a dubious possibility based on the very errata you mentioned and its superfluous nature IF Mirny is correct... but that is, I believe, an accurate explanation for why this isn't as blatantly obvious as 99.9999% of T'au players have played it post-errata.
The reason for the change are rules from other factions. Before the errata Tyranidplayer could argue that the Old One Eye buffs himself because he have no "other" in the rule text like our Longstrike. Now they changed it and Tau player start to argue.
I don't get it. The keyword system is so clear. If it is a Keyword it is bold and CAPS. There are 7 Keywords in Longstrikes ability rules. All bold and CAPS. They changed the rule but even with this new attention for the rule, they don't change it to TX7 HAMMERHEAD GUNSHIPS. I can't understand why someone can believe it is meant to be a keyword. They looked at it again! So RAI and RAW he don't buff himself.
Things do look bad at this early-ish point. We're still pre-codex just working on the indexes of course, but GW does have form at making armies terribad. Consider DE in 7th. There's no reason to assume that the game will be balanced, or that imbalances will be fixed.
I'm annoyed to see GW sticking with a codex format. The approach in AoS, with an annually-published book of points values, is clearly better. They really ought to have switched to electronic rules 10 years ago and I can see no argument for the current system. That's before you start to consider the huge cost of buying all the damn books.
On the question of quality firepower vs quantity, the problem is that we have neither. A railgun is just a fancy lascannon that costs 50% more. A heavy rail rifle is a bad twin-linked lascannon for 25% more points. Imperial armies get to spam these guns all over the place - on elites, on troops, on planes and on dedicated transports. Tau only get them on a few over-priced heavy support choices, carrying one or two guns instead of three or four. And they aren't even as accurate as the imperial ones.
A quality gun is a volcano cannon. Quantity comes with predators or AC razorbacks. Though to be fair, it's not as if railguns were any good in the last couple of editions either. I've got 3 railgun hammerheads that date back to 3rd edition, when they used to have a nice time instant killing daemon princes. They are dusty.
One thing is clear right now. If your xenos your having trouble in tournaments. It's basically a million flavors of marines/IoM vs Chaos.
I kind of think they orchestrated this on purpose. No warzones in the core book about xenos vs IoM or even Xenos vs Chaos. No real new lore for any of them either.
Vague rumours we might get stuff next year at some point.
Almost universally bad xenos rules across the board.
GW themselves saying this year focus is on IoM vs Chaos. Didn't they also say the edition as well?
No xenos allowed in their narrative global campaign.
Does anyone else feel they are slowly trying to SoB the whole xenos range out so they can have 30k mk2?
If your a xenos player of any kind except perhaps Eldar I would be very stingy buying stuff for xenos until we have a more clear idea of what GW is going to do with the red headed step child.
Gamgee wrote: One thing is clear right now. If your xenos your having trouble in tournaments. It's basically a million flavors of marines/IoM vs Chaos.
I kind of think they orchestrated this on purpose. No warzones in the core book about xenos vs IoM or even Xenos vs Chaos. No real new lore for any of them either.
Vague rumours we might get stuff next year at some point.
Almost universally bad xenos rules across the board.
GW themselves saying this year focus is on IoM vs Chaos. Didn't they also say the edition as well?
No xenos allowed in their narrative global campaign.
Does anyone else feel they are slowly trying to SoB the whole xenos range out so they can have 30k mk2?
If your a xenos player of any kind except perhaps Eldar I would be very stingy buying stuff for xenos until we have a more clear idea of what GW is going to do with the red headed step child.
Please remove your Tin hat. Dark Eldar are in a good palce, maybe top tier. Harliquins are in a great place. Necrons, another good book. Orks and Tyrinids, people are saying good things, I 'm siding on good. so what are their 2? midtier to bad Xenos races? Definitely not Tin hat time.
Ugh, enough of the Tau doom and gloom. Internal balance is poor, but they can definitely put down a nasty list. They are still the most effective army I've seen on the table in 8th. Monats, drones, triple flamers and a gunline supported by Kroot is very solid.
The adjustment to 8th is obviously still happening. SM are going to do better because they are the easiest army to play, hardly any "bad" units, and most of them are multi purpose. Every other army I've tried (CE, DE, Nids, Orks, Tau, even IG) struggle with poor units and niche units. Finding a way to make niche units shine is part of the fun - otherwise we'd all play Marines.
I think its safe to say that Deepstriking within 12" is a very powerful tool for a very large portion of WH40k's armies (namely, the Imperium and Chaos, with their 12" meltaguns and mostly 24" plasmaguns), but that not all enemies deepstrike or need to deepstrike within 12" to be effective (Tau Commanders with 4 CIBs, for example, needs only get within 18" of the target).
Never having used EWO does not really suggest EWO wasn't meaningful, and I wonder if you explicitly asked the opponent if they deepstruck without factoring EWO in. Even if they did not, would they have been willing to deepstrike within EWO range had you positioned the EWO better?
Well I did get to use EWO last night but it was still completely ineffective. None of my opponents care about EWO. Last night nids didn’t even ask they just deep striked, disembarked, advanced and charged my broadsides with EWO without a care about EWO which yet again was ineffective.
As for the EWO on bigger suits I cannot comment. Mostly we are still playing small games 750pts to 1000pts and I haven’t had chance yet to test out the larger suits. But it’s worth thinking about EWO on them.
Could I confirm EWO triggers on units that disembark from transports? disembark from transports is listed as an ability and is a unit being setup mid game. Is that right? Personally I have given up on broadsides for now in favour of fusion. Although I will have to try them again, at some point.
Talamare wrote: “Also I'm going to assume you wrote ATS + Double Flamer
If it was Triple Flamer I'm going to assume you either cheated or used Monat for Flamers which sounds like a Sin in my book.”
I can see the misunderstanding. (full sized stealth team with ATS) + (triple flamer deep strike suits). I should have put a , before to make it more clear.
No ATS on fusion Stealth Suits. Crisis suits without support systems and I didn’t mention it before but I did have drones with the Crisis. There was also a commander with drones and a bomber with 2 drones but that doesn't really matter for this. No need for a full battle report I was just saying the flamers deeps strike backed up with fusion was extremely effective against the walkers. Back in my deployment was some useless snipers which I wont be using again unless the full codex changes them.
You are focused too much on mathhammer and not what counts. It was not terrible value as I effectively won the game by end of turn 2 although the other player kindly played on. My total loss was 1 suit, 6 drones, 1 fire warrior and wiped out the Orks. If I had gone on pure math hammer and taken other builds I would have done far more poorly that game.
It was a devastating combo against the walkers and triple Plasma Crisis isn’t always better. Right off the bat half the shots miss even on a perfect dice roll that’s 18 wounds max quite a few would have been saved by the 5+ invl the walker squads had. The triple flamer suits can with a good dice roll do far more than 18 wounds and what matters more is when the walkers charge into CC the triple flamer suits kill them while the plasma is lucky to even hit. The walkers where in a no win situation shooting all they could do was kill a few drones before being blown-up themselves. Charging into CC just meant they got killed before making it into CC. Well 2 got killed and 1 made it though killed a suit then I jumped back and finished them off with flamers.
Flamers where far more effective then plasma would have been in that situation.
Mathhammer says 3 stealth suits with DC and drones do more damage but there is more than just math to factor in. 6 stealth suits and 2 drones can blow up a key enemy target on turn 1 before those 3 suits + DC with mass drones have even got into fire range. Mathhammer is useful as a guideline but we need to be careful not to over focus to much on mathhammer and say X is better than B just because maths say it does more wounds. Most of the time I would take full size Stealth team over a small squad with drones.
Does anyone else feel they are slowly trying to SoB the whole xenos range out so they can have 30k mk2?
Err...no? GW has outright neglected Chaos and Imperial Guard for so long it's refreshing that they get some attention, and GW has always given Space Marines way too much attention.
I wouldn't focus too much on the win/loss ratios of armies. That's incomplete data. What are Tau winning against? What are Tau losing against? What's the composition of the winning armies, and the losing ones? Too many moving parts to really tell what's going on. Back in 5th I had a really strong Death Guard army, but at a Battle Bunker tournament I was forced to cross an open table against a Sisters gunline.
WAAC Tournament Tau players all had Riptide Wing spam and if they brought that to the new edition, they'll lose. The army has changed and people need to find their feet. Soon enough people will roll out their all Vespid armies and things will turn around.
I have never thought GW writes bad rules on purpose. Why on earth would they do that?
The problem is that they do write bad rules. It ends up in the situation that some units in every codex are used and most are not. So now we need loads of drones and commanders, where before we needed loads of riptides. Hardly any of my old models are all that useful, and it's irritating.
I know it's the normal thing whenever there's a new codex or edition. Some stuff becomes useless and other stuff becomes amazing. I'm just tired of it.
Anyway back to actual tactics instead of whining. Someone mentioned above that darkstrider's ability to lower a unit's toughness isn't much good. I tend to agree that it's not enough on its own, but he brings other stuff too. It really helps to let units fall back out of combat and still shoot, and he does bring a markerlight. Not bad on the whole. Making the breachers wound on a 2+ is certainly no bad thing either. He can also use his trick on tough things, say bringing a tank's toughness down to 6 so it can be wounded on a 4+.
Its all doom and gloom and "we are so bad" and "we need a new codex".
Well, it ain't that bad.
Did we get an over-nerf? Yes.
Is it that bad? No.
Will there always be a list out there with someone spamming six of the most efficient units? (like the stormraven list?) yes.
Of course, if you spam 8 commanders are you any better than "that guy"? (hint: you are then that guy).
Yeah, they admit there are nerfs , and they do some math - but its not about finding the most "hyper efficient unit" in every slot.
its about an overall balanced list that can cover a lot of bases, and has decent units.
Just finished another game last night - tau vs. necrons, about 2000 points. Very close game.
A few observations: Pathfinders with rail rifles are amazing. In multiple games they have proven their "worth".
The ghost keel, while not having great damage output for his points is amazingly survivable - and can really cause fixation in your opponent. Combined with his good movement rate this enables to be a decent short ranged objective holder.
The sunshark continues to do well. The bomb is nice, and the other weapons while not overwhelming are good for finishing off squads or getting some extra wounds in on characters.
Longstrike and friends is amazing - yes, and get the smart missiles. Yes, I know math hammer they are not as good. However, when you need to kill the guy 27" away on an objective and he is out of line of sight - smart missiles for the win.
Piranha - still good. Yep, can hold an objective, can move, can split drones etc.
Sniper drones - still feel not very useful - however, after playing snipers in other armies - overall I think the problem is that we have too high expectations for them. Their marksmen needs to be able to put a markerlight on a character. This is design omission I feel.
Necrons - always finish off a unit. always. also, they are very slow.
Coldstar - yes, he is good. But his movement (including his 40" advance move) are his best assets. No, he is not as "efficient" as a fusion commander. That is wrong thinking - different role different job. A fusion commander (which I use) will never move 36 inches and then finish off a unit and take an objective (coldstar can still hit on 3's after an advance).
Vespid - yes, good. No, they will not hold up as well as models with better saves - but they hold up against casual effort to remove them. Excellent for killing stuff, and for grabbing objectives.
Some of the new missions have interesting nuances to them - I suggest everyone play as many different types of games as possible.
The new books actually are fairly good - while yes, some units are not as good (the riptide was over nerfed) but the "most of my models are useles" is just plain wrong. I played tau and nids in 5th, trust me, I know about useless models.
We are seeing a lot of variety in good tau lists - this is an excellent thing. Some are successful with fish and breahers, some with lots of drones, others are working the ghostkeel - some leverage commanders and drone ports.
Pay attention to the math - but don't let it rule your game. Tactics and clever play rule the day.
Thanks everyone for the data and the tips, they're really nice to have. I'll wait for the codex before buying anything from Tau, I still have to buy a few models for my beloved AdMech and I'm curious to see how they'll flesh out the T'au in their codex, especially with new stratagems and Sept specific rules.
Anyway back to actual tactics instead of whining. Someone mentioned above that darkstrider's ability to lower a unit's toughness isn't much good. I tend to agree that it's not enough on its own, but he brings other stuff too. It really helps to let units fall back out of combat and still shoot, and he does bring a markerlight. Not bad on the whole. Making the breachers wound on a 2+ is certainly no bad thing either. He can also use his trick on tough things, say bringing a tank's toughness down to 6 so it can be wounded on a 4+.
Hey I completely skipped over the Fighting Retreat ability, that's one more reason to bring him alongside a full Breacher team with two gun drones + 2 gun drones from the Devilfish. Using all this to kill a Tac squad ? Certainly not, if you're close enough you can shoot a Leman Russ equivalent to death thanks to Darkstrider. He looks good paired with a Pathfinder Ion/Rail rifle team too, and an Ethereal to reroll the 1s to Hit. It's definitely an interesting HQ, and he looks easy enough to convert.
What's a monat exactly ? A commander in XV8 or XV86 that goes alone wrecking stuff up ? I saw that Crisis teams are well, teams, so I conclude it's got to be a Commander.
Aaranis wrote: Thanks everyone for the data and the tips, they're really nice to have. I'll wait for the codex before buying anything from Tau, I still have to buy a few models for my beloved AdMech and I'm curious to see how they'll flesh out the T'au in their codex, especially with new stratagems and Sept specific rules.
Anyway back to actual tactics instead of whining. Someone mentioned above that darkstrider's ability to lower a unit's toughness isn't much good. I tend to agree that it's not enough on its own, but he brings other stuff too. It really helps to let units fall back out of combat and still shoot, and he does bring a markerlight. Not bad on the whole. Making the breachers wound on a 2+ is certainly no bad thing either. He can also use his trick on tough things, say bringing a tank's toughness down to 6 so it can be wounded on a 4+.
Hey I completely skipped over the Fighting Retreat ability, that's one more reason to bring him alongside a full Breacher team with two gun drones + 2 gun drones from the Devilfish. Using all this to kill a Tac squad ? Certainly not, if you're close enough you can shoot a Leman Russ equivalent to death thanks to Darkstrider. He looks good paired with a Pathfinder Ion/Rail rifle team too, and an Ethereal to reroll the 1s to Hit. It's definitely an interesting HQ, and he looks easy enough to convert.
What's a monat exactly ? A commander in XV8 or XV86 that goes alone wrecking stuff up ? I saw that Crisis teams are well, teams, so I conclude it's got to be a Commander.
I desperately want Jump shoot jump back, but tau are doing fine. You seem to have a knack at asking good questions and absorbing information -
Find a good tau player in your area, and play against them. You will do well with the tau. enjoy.
Its all doom and gloom and "we are so bad" and "we need a new codex".
Well, it ain't that bad.
Did we get an over-nerf? Yes.
Is it that bad? No.
Will there always be a list out there with someone spamming six of the most efficient units? (like the stormraven list?) yes.
Of course, if you spam 8 commanders are you any better than "that guy"? (hint: you are then that guy).
Yeah, they admit there are nerfs , and they do some math - but its not about finding the most "hyper efficient unit" in every slot.
its about an overall balanced list that can cover a lot of bases, and has decent units.
Just finished another game last night - tau vs. necrons, about 2000 points. Very close game.
A few observations: Pathfinders with rail rifles are amazing. In multiple games they have proven their "worth".
The ghost keel, while not having great damage output for his points is amazingly survivable - and can really cause fixation in your opponent. Combined with his good movement rate this enables to be a decent short ranged objective holder.
The sunshark continues to do well. The bomb is nice, and the other weapons while not overwhelming are good for finishing off squads or getting some extra wounds in on characters.
Longstrike and friends is amazing - yes, and get the smart missiles. Yes, I know math hammer they are not as good. However, when you need to kill the guy 27" away on an objective and he is out of line of sight - smart missiles for the win.
Piranha - still good. Yep, can hold an objective, can move, can split drones etc.
Sniper drones - still feel not very useful - however, after playing snipers in other armies - overall I think the problem is that we have too high expectations for them. Their marksmen needs to be able to put a markerlight on a character. This is design omission I feel.
Necrons - always finish off a unit. always. also, they are very slow.
Coldstar - yes, he is good. But his movement (including his 40" advance move) are his best assets. No, he is not as "efficient" as a fusion commander. That is wrong thinking - different role different job. A fusion commander (which I use) will never move 36 inches and then finish off a unit and take an objective (coldstar can still hit on 3's after an advance).
Vespid - yes, good. No, they will not hold up as well as models with better saves - but they hold up against casual effort to remove them. Excellent for killing stuff, and for grabbing objectives.
Some of the new missions have interesting nuances to them - I suggest everyone play as many different types of games as possible.
The new books actually are fairly good - while yes, some units are not as good (the riptide was over nerfed) but the "most of my models are useles" is just plain wrong. I played tau and nids in 5th, trust me, I know about useless models.
We are seeing a lot of variety in good tau lists - this is an excellent thing. Some are successful with fish and breahers, some with lots of drones, others are working the ghostkeel - some leverage commanders and drone ports.
Pay attention to the math - but don't let it rule your game. Tactics and clever play rule the day.
Agreed, we are not as good as before but we are not as bad as chaos in 7th.
On your unit points I agree. I think ghostkeels are gems here. They are not as killy but they stick around and maintain board pressure and have the movement to be where they need to be. Along with stealthsuits the infiltrate delployment is great allows you to threaten things turn 1 and be aggressive from unexpected angles.
I'll be honest I have given sniper drones much thought (even though I have 9 of them). I realize the power of characters but I have been focusing more on just killing the priority units and not the buffers. I'd love to hear someone having success with them though.
I think the coldstar is the best objective grabber and trouble shooter we have. The 40" move is insane and he only gets -1 to hit for it too! He can be pretty much anywhere on the board we need him to be and dealing damage and causing trouble.
I wish I had vespids to test out, the movement and decent damage seem great. I have been using breachers in fishes to great effect. Tau need to control the midfield imo not sit back in a gunline. Breachers in a fish and amazing for blowing units away and Darkstrider is a natural add in to this unit and adds a touch combat survivability.
We need to play strategic. We can still have the focused fire to kill key targets each turn and win through positioning and target priority. Our suits and vehicles have the survivability to last and finish games
I desperately want Jump shoot jump back, but tau are doing fine. You seem to have a knack at asking good questions and absorbing information -
Find a good tau player in your area, and play against them. You will do well with the tau. enjoy.
It's good that Tau needs thinking to play I think, back in 7th I was afraid of starting 40K again because of the reputation of the Tau army. Now, some people will start Tau in my LGS and so I'll have more occasions to fight them and see what's their strong points and weaknesses. So far I had one game at 1000 pts, AdMech vs T'au, and I won but it was intense in the start of the battle, but I claimed control rather quickly when I destroyed his Ghostkeel, his Pathfinders and the Broadside, he didn't have enough units to do serious damage to me so I won at objectives. I don't think his list was really good though.
Apparently he destroyed another player at a 2000 pts game but his opponent is still a beginner and has much to learn, and people told me about the power of Drones-heavy lists. I'd like to avoid the Drone spam because I prefer the Fire Warriors but I'll still have some of course.
I'm talking about waiting for the Codex to have the time to finish my AdMech and the army of my wife, it's a timer until I can start another army actually And this way I can avoid surprises if there's too much changes. I'd love to know about Sept specific rules to know how I'll paint mine too.
Well I love shooting armies, but AdMech is a tad too much orientated on heavy artillery right now, and I dislike the fact that we're strongly encouraged at picking options there and there from all over the Imperium to have functional lists, I'd rather have an almost pure AdMech army but our lack of Transports and the loss of the Scout moves pretty much kills us. Still love playing my army though ! T'au have the same amount of thinking required to make your game go nicely, but I love the aesthetics, the fluff and the mobility they have access to. And Railguns of course.
Well I did get to use EWO last night but it was still completely ineffective. None of my opponents care about EWO. Last night nids didn’t even ask they just deep striked, disembarked, advanced and charged my broadsides with EWO without a care about EWO which yet again was ineffective.
I may be a bit confused at this point: Were the Nids deepstriking within 12" of your EWO Broadside, and it whiffed... or did Nids deepstrike outside of 12" (or at least outside of 12" of your EWO broadside) then either charge, or use the psyker power to move in the shooting phase then charge? What was the charge distance the Nids had to make?
But you said you got to use EWO, so presumably the Broadside WAS allowed to fire and... it did nothing? It did little? It did statistically average numbers of wounds, but you were expecting more? It didn't wipe out the entire deepstriking enemy in a single volley of dakka? It didn't wipe out the entire enemy force with a single dice roll?
What is your Broadside equipped with, weapon-wise? What is your opponent Deepstriking in, and is it particularly vulnerable or durable against your Broadside's chosen weaponry?
What would a sub-10-point piece of wargear have to do for it to be "effective" in your opinion
?
But ultimately Nids may be the problem rather than the EWO, since they have unique solutions to avoid the EWO that most other armies simply lack. For most...
1. Deepstriking is almost always done at >9". The only exceptions I'm aware of are GSC (you said Nids... did you mean to include GSC?) and T'au Homing Beacons.
2. Setting up models that auto-disembark after Deepstrike must also be done at >9".
Those two provide the baseline: You need to get more than 9" on the charge (9 on the dice +1" bubble) to succeed, for both the Deepstriking transport and anything disembarking from it. That happens quite rarely (somewhere around ~25-30%, or just under 50% if you can reroll charges).
3. You may not move after you arrive by Deepstrike.
4. Advancing happens during the Movement phase and can only performed as part of a move action.
Taken together, you realize that unless you're given explicit permission to do so (basically only GSC when they get certain Cult Ambush results, or when a model is allowed to move in the shooting phase), the models deepstriking are always going to need to roll at least a 9 on their charge, which will fail even for the dedicated chargers most of the time.
That's the benefit EWO brings if the opponent decides against deepstriking near enough to trigger it - forced decrease in the chance to assault.
But EWO is only a few points, and even on a potent platform, it ISN'T GOING TO WIN THE GAME FOR YOU. Even a Stormsurge could whiff on all its attacks, and that isn't the fault of the EWO that that stormsurge was ineffective - it just didn't have as much effectiveness as the average (dice are dice).
It also isn't going to be equally effective against all armies - with Synapse, Tyranids have a unique way to effectively ignore the restriction that EWO provides (... albeit at the cost of a Psyker power you can use once per turn that could have been used to help a different, non-Deepstrike unit get into combat) - but I still have a hard time believing it to be COMPLETELY ineffective.
But if your dice just tend to not be hot when it comes to EWO shooting phases, or your enemies end up deepstriking somewhere else just as effectively, or your meta tends to have a lot of Nids (and their relatively unique ability to Deepstrike and assault without running afoul of EWO)... take the Counterfire Defense System instead.
The tradeoff is essentially this: Do you want to force the opponent to CHOOSE to either get shot up OR to deploy further away than they'd want to, or do you want the more reliable but lesser output that comes with roughly doubled Overwatch effectiveness (which itself is still less than the free shooting phase you get with EWO).
Could I confirm EWO triggers on units that disembark from transports? disembark from transports is listed as an ability and is a unit being setup mid game. Is that right? Personally I have given up on broadsides for now in favour of fusion. Although I will have to try them again, at some point.
Its going to depend on the bespoke rules given. For Drop Pods and, IIRC, the Nid Spores, the auto-disembark is explicitly called "set up" and so EWO would trigger (against both the drop pod/mycetic spore AND the disembarked unit). If an enemy already on the table disembarks, I don't believe that counts (since it has to have arrived from off-table, I think).
Broadsides... I'm still on the fence for 'em myself.
broadsides sure have good firepower and can take ATS to buff it further - I'm likeing hammerheads for the BS.
Question- if you are going to bring 3 hammerheads and 1 has an ion cannon - would you give the ion to longstrike? He can't overheat if he stay still but he also does well with a rail as hes wounding most tanks/monsters on a 2+ and does mortal wounds on a 5 or 6. It's a tough call - another question - is the Ion Cannon even worth it over the rail on any hammerhead?
Well I did get to use EWO last night but it was still completely ineffective. None of my opponents care about EWO. Last night nids didn’t even ask they just deep striked, disembarked, advanced and charged my broadsides with EWO without a care about EWO which yet again was ineffective.
I may be a bit confused at this point: Were the Nids deepstriking within 12" of your EWO Broadside, and it whiffed... or did Nids deepstrike outside of 12" (or at least outside of 12" of your EWO broadside) then either charge, or use the psyker power to move in the shooting phase then charge? What was the charge distance the Nids had to make?
But you said you got to use EWO, so presumably the Broadside WAS allowed to fire and... it did nothing? It did little? It did statistically average numbers of wounds, but you were expecting more? It didn't wipe out the entire deepstriking enemy in a single volley of dakka? It didn't wipe out the entire enemy force with a single dice roll?
What is your Broadside equipped with, weapon-wise? What is your opponent Deepstriking in, and is it particularly vulnerable or durable against your Broadside's chosen weaponry?
What would a sub-10-point piece of wargear have to do for it to be "effective" in your opinion
?
But ultimately Nids may be the problem rather than the EWO, since they have unique solutions to avoid the EWO that most other armies simply lack. For most...
1. Deepstriking is almost always done at >9". The only exceptions I'm aware of are GSC (you said Nids... did you mean to include GSC?) and T'au Homing Beacons.
2. Setting up models that auto-disembark after Deepstrike must also be done at >9".
Those two provide the baseline: You need to get more than 9" on the charge (9 on the dice +1" bubble) to succeed, for both the Deepstriking transport and anything disembarking from it. That happens quite rarely (somewhere around ~25-30%, or just under 50% if you can reroll charges).
3. You may not move after you arrive by Deepstrike.
4. Advancing happens during the Movement phase and can only performed as part of a move action.
Taken together, you realize that unless you're given explicit permission to do so (basically only GSC when they get certain Cult Ambush results, or when a model is allowed to move in the shooting phase), the models deepstriking are always going to need to roll at least a 9 on their charge, which will fail even for the dedicated chargers most of the time.
That's the benefit EWO brings if the opponent decides against deepstriking near enough to trigger it - forced decrease in the chance to assault.
But EWO is only a few points, and even on a potent platform, it ISN'T GOING TO WIN THE GAME FOR YOU. Even a Stormsurge could whiff on all its attacks, and that isn't the fault of the EWO that that stormsurge was ineffective - it just didn't have as much effectiveness as the average (dice are dice).
It also isn't going to be equally effective against all armies - with Synapse, Tyranids have a unique way to effectively ignore the restriction that EWO provides (... albeit at the cost of a Psyker power you can use once per turn that could have been used to help a different, non-Deepstrike unit get into combat) - but I still have a hard time believing it to be COMPLETELY ineffective.
But if your dice just tend to not be hot when it comes to EWO shooting phases, or your enemies end up deepstriking somewhere else just as effectively, or your meta tends to have a lot of Nids (and their relatively unique ability to Deepstrike and assault without running afoul of EWO)... take the Counterfire Defense System instead.
The tradeoff is essentially this: Do you want to force the opponent to CHOOSE to either get shot up OR to deploy further away than they'd want to, or do you want the more reliable but lesser output that comes with roughly doubled Overwatch effectiveness (which itself is still less than the free shooting phase you get with EWO).
Could I confirm EWO triggers on units that disembark from transports? disembark from transports is listed as an ability and is a unit being setup mid game. Is that right? Personally I have given up on broadsides for now in favour of fusion. Although I will have to try them again, at some point.
Its going to depend on the bespoke rules given. For Drop Pods and, IIRC, the Nid Spores, the auto-disembark is explicitly called "set up" and so EWO would trigger (against both the drop pod/mycetic spore AND the disembarked unit). If an enemy already on the table disembarks, I don't believe that counts (since it has to have arrived from off-table, I think).
Broadsides... I'm still on the fence for 'em myself.
I think you call it Tyrannocyte, the pod thing deep striked 13” away from me onto an objective while my broadsides where sitting on another objective. The 20 Genestealers disembarked within 12” of me. We was a little unclear on if that triggerers at the time so for sake of game speed they let me. Broadsides killed 1 genestealer due to 5++ and having plasma over smart due to lack of spare points. It was a full nid army no GSC and if you cannot advance on deepstrike we both made a mistake but it had little impact on the game that time.
“The tradeoff is essentially this: Do you want to force the opponent to CHOOSE to either get shot up OR to deploy further away than they'd want to,” My opponents so far just do not care. They don’t factor EWO when picking a deep strike location. Orks, Nids, Chaos have so far chosen to ignore the impact of EWO. I think for now I am going leave EWO until I take bigger suits or larger squads (3 broadsides). Now that ATS boost CC as well as ranged I think I prefer that most of the time. Although on fusion suits I am thinking reroll overwatch.
thank you for the tips and clearing up EWO disembark.
I think you call it Tyrannocyte, the pod thing deep striked 13” away from me onto an objective while my broadsides where sitting on another objective. The 20 Genestealers disembarked within 12” of me. We was a little unclear on if that triggerers at the time so for sake of game speed they let me. Broadsides killed 1 genestealer due to 5++ and having plasma over smart due to lack of spare points. It was a full nid army no GSC and if you cannot advance on deepstrike we both made a mistake but it had little impact on the game that time.
So you fired six shots (2 HRR, 4 Plasma) at a target that is unusually durable for its points against that particular type of firepower (High Str Good AP and some Multi-Damage attack, against a model with an invulnerable save almost as good as its armor save).
A bit below average in terms of DPS, I'd imagine, but also not immensely below. Then again, this is a sub-10 point wargear upgrade, which killed a genestealer that wouldn't have been dead otherwise (or at best would have died in Overwatch instead).
Then the Genestealer advanced (so it could actually succeed on the charge more than once in a blue moon) in violation of the rules which allowed it to assault (and presumably do horrible things to your forces), but this had little impact on the game? Cuz otherwise, as I've mentioned, that's a sub-50% chance of charge success for the units that CAN reroll charge distances from Deepstrike, and a squad of Genestealers making it into combat (or not) seems like it would be fairly significant on the game-changing front...
Interesting.
“The tradeoff is essentially this: Do you want to force the opponent to CHOOSE to either get shot up OR to deploy further away than they'd want to,” My opponents so far just do not care. They don’t factor EWO when picking a deep strike location. Orks, Nids, Chaos have so far chosen to ignore the impact of EWO. I think for now I am going leave EWO until I take bigger suits or larger squads (3 broadsides). Now that ATS boost CC as well as ranged I think I prefer that most of the time. Although on fusion suits I am thinking reroll overwatch.
thank you for the tips and clearing up EWO disembark.
My pleasure. And feel free to leave EWO out entirely, its your army to play as you like!
It isn't as if all my Broadsides/Stormsurges/Riptides/Ghostkeels have had EWO, after all... it just has its place, and CAN be punishing to an enemy if they don't give you the extra 3" breathing room. Your EWO needs to be reasonably good at the job (HRR/PR Broadsides do not have good efficiency against Genestealers - I'd bet a HYMP/SMS Broadside would have taken a much more significant toll and more heavily punished the Nids player), most things short of a Stormsurge aren't going to be wiping enemy units the instant they touch the table.
Its a sub-10 point piece of wargear that, IMO, adds a lot more than 10 points in value (It did for you, at least - Genestealers are more than 10 points, neh?), so hopefully our discussion helps other players figure out if its worth its value to them, too!
Xenomancers wrote: Question- if you are going to bring 3 hammerheads and 1 has an ion cannon - would you give the ion to longstrike? He can't overheat if he stay still but he also does well with a rail as hes wounding most tanks/monsters on a 2+ and does mortal wounds on a 5 or 6. It's a tough call - another question - is the Ion Cannon even worth it over the rail on any hammerhead?
NEVER!
Longstrike is Rail Gun ONLY
Being able to cause d3 mortal wounds on a 5+ is absolutely massive
Not to mention he wounds everything on a 2+
Ion Cannon would only wound T8 on a 3+, very disappointing.
but seriously, What does the Ion Cannon even do?
Heavy d3... and only d3 damage... for 55 points
Know else has that stat line... CIB... (factoring in ATS)
It's straight up the exact same stat line... d3 shots with d3 damage, and the CIB only costs 18 points.
For the Ion Cannon to be close to viable, it needs to do d6 damage and be AP-3
Oh, and don't forget... A Longstrike buffed Hammerhead still wouldn't overheat.
So my friend developed a list that has 3 Stormsurges and Shadowsun, rest Markerlights and Commanders. Pop Mont'ka turn one to advance Surges up thefield and plant your legs. Commanders do what they do. Then on turn two pop Kayuon with for Surges and watch as everything dies.
It was amusing to see 3 Surges on the field. His reasoning was that if it's not good, you just don't have enough of them. It is a powerful list, but he hasn't tested it much yet. Just against some pretty casual Chaos list with a lot of berserkers and predators and stuff. Don't know how it'll do against Stormraven spam, he'll probably lose at least one Surge first turn.
Fueli wrote: So my friend developed a list that has 3 Stormsurges and Shadowsun, rest Markerlights and Commanders. Pop Mont'ka turn one to advance Surges up thefield and plant your legs. Commanders do what they do. Then on turn two pop Kayuon with for Surges and watch as everything dies.
It was amusing to see 3 Surges on the field. His reasoning was that if it's not good, you just don't have enough of them. It is a powerful list, but he hasn't tested it much yet. Just against some pretty casual Chaos list with a lot of berserkers and predators and stuff. Don't know how it'll do against Stormraven spam, he'll probably lose at least one Surge first turn.
Isn't a stormsurge.. nowadays, a bigger riptide (worse save?) with a Leman Russ Punish for one arm and a demolisher for the other. Around about 500pts?
I mean, sure.. 3 of them will put out lots of damage. The problem is when you start matching that vs. other options in the opponents army, better point efficiency will always win out.
Fueli wrote: So my friend developed a list that has 3 Stormsurges and Shadowsun, rest Markerlights and Commanders. Pop Mont'ka turn one to advance Surges up thefield and plant your legs. Commanders do what they do. Then on turn two pop Kayuon with for Surges and watch as everything dies.
It was amusing to see 3 Surges on the field. His reasoning was that if it's not good, you just don't have enough of them. It is a powerful list, but he hasn't tested it much yet. Just against some pretty casual Chaos list with a lot of berserkers and predators and stuff. Don't know how it'll do against Stormraven spam, he'll probably lose at least one Surge first turn.
You cannot use both Mont'Ka and Kauyon. It's one OR the other, 1 turn only.
On a general note, it disgusts me the general tendency to spam a single unit multiple times. Both for us Tau players and for every other army too.
One of the positive effects of Decurion-style formations was that they encouraged to bring diversified lists (even with tax units). The Decurion bonuses were completely unbalanced (SM, Tau and Necrons were good, while AM was useless for example), but the "fluffiness" of the lists was decent.
Now we have tournaments dominated by spam lists...
Fueli wrote: So my friend developed a list that has 3 Stormsurges and Shadowsun, rest Markerlights and Commanders. Pop Mont'ka turn one to advance Surges up thefield and plant your legs. Commanders do what they do. Then on turn two pop Kayuon with for Surges and watch as everything dies.
It was amusing to see 3 Surges on the field. His reasoning was that if it's not good, you just don't have enough of them. It is a powerful list, but he hasn't tested it much yet. Just against some pretty casual Chaos list with a lot of berserkers and predators and stuff. Don't know how it'll do against Stormraven spam, he'll probably lose at least one Surge first turn.
You cannot use both Mont'Ka and Kauyon. It's one OR the other, 1 turn only.
On a general note, it disgusts me the general tendency to spam a single unit multiple times. Both for us Tau players and for every other army too. One of the positive effects of Decurion-style formations was that they encouraged to bring diversified lists (even with tax units). The Decurion bonuses were completely unbalanced (SM, Tau and Necrons were good, while AM was useless for example), but the "fluffiness" of the lists was decent. Now we have tournaments dominated by spam lists...
Not true on the Mont'ka and Kau'yon. Using their "Genius of X" special rules Shadowsun and Farsight can pop Kau'yon and Mont'ka, respectively, even if Mont'ka or Kau'yon has already been used prior. Shadowsun and Farsight also have the ability to pop Kau'yon or Mont'ka like a normal commander so it is perfectly legal to have Shadowsun use Mont'ka on turn one, using her Master of War special rule, and then on turn 2 use her Genius of Kau'yon special rule to pop Kau'yon. She could alternatively use Kau'yon twice. Same with Farsight but Mont'ka instead of Kau'yon.
Fueli wrote: So my friend developed a list that has 3 Stormsurges and Shadowsun, rest Markerlights and Commanders. Pop Mont'ka turn one to advance Surges up thefield and plant your legs. Commanders do what they do. Then on turn two pop Kayuon with for Surges and watch as everything dies.
It was amusing to see 3 Surges on the field. His reasoning was that if it's not good, you just don't have enough of them. It is a powerful list, but he hasn't tested it much yet. Just against some pretty casual Chaos list with a lot of berserkers and predators and stuff. Don't know how it'll do against Stormraven spam, he'll probably lose at least one Surge first turn.
You cannot use both Mont'Ka and Kauyon. It's one OR the other, 1 turn only.
On a general note, it disgusts me the general tendency to spam a single unit multiple times. Both for us Tau players and for every other army too.
One of the positive effects of Decurion-style formations was that they encouraged to bring diversified lists (even with tax units). The Decurion bonuses were completely unbalanced (SM, Tau and Necrons were good, while AM was useless for example), but the "fluffiness" of the lists was decent.
Now we have tournaments dominated by spam lists...
You can with Shadowsun. As for your opinion on spam lists, please keep that out of here.
Aenar wrote: On a general note, it disgusts me the general tendency to spam a single unit multiple times. Both for us Tau players and for every other army too.
One of the positive effects of Decurion-style formations was that they encouraged to bring diversified lists (even with tax units). The Decurion bonuses were completely unbalanced (SM, Tau and Necrons were good, while AM was useless for example), but the "fluffiness" of the lists was decent.
Now we have tournaments dominated by spam lists...
Spam has always been part of 40k (especially with the easy access to internet), as people could easily share their opinions on units (this subforum is a prime example of this). While casual play (the way we play most) see some variances because people has different views and takes on units, for tourneys people always have brought what was deemed the best. Today, it seems like SM flyers do that.
Decurions only made people spam the best formations (how many used Alien Auxiliary Cadre, for example?) for a simple Core tax (if you played Farsight enclaves, the Core was your best formation anyway).
Regarding Tau specifically, I'd say the lack of BS2+ shooting makes us look quite fondly at the Commander. Our lack of re-roll all hits (only once with Kauyon) and 1s to wound (things SM can do the entire game) also forces our hand into better stuff and repeat it ad nauseum.
I believe the first step is to make other stuff more interesting (reducing costs, changing unit structure or giving them special rules), as also reworking the markerlight table to dish out 2 +1 to hit bonuses.
One of Tau's biggest appeal was 'quality of shooting', in the fact we managed to deal terrific blows to the enemy with our technology, while AM was our counterpart with 'quantity of shooting'. This new markerlight table removed this factor for rank and file troops, making people crave for Commander's abilities.
Aenar wrote: On a general note, it disgusts me the general tendency to spam a single unit multiple times. Both for us Tau players and for every other army too.
One of the positive effects of Decurion-style formations was that they encouraged to bring diversified lists (even with tax units). The Decurion bonuses were completely unbalanced (SM, Tau and Necrons were good, while AM was useless for example), but the "fluffiness" of the lists was decent.
Now we have tournaments dominated by spam lists...
Spam has always been part of 40k (especially with the easy access to internet), as people could easily share their opinions on units (this subforum is a prime example of this). While casual play (the way we play most) see some variances because people has different views and takes on units, for tourneys people always have brought what was deemed the best. Today, it seems like SM flyers do that.
Decurions only made people spam the best formations (how many used Alien Auxiliary Cadre, for example?) for a simple Core tax (if you played Farsight enclaves, the Core was your best formation anyway).
Regarding Tau specifically, I'd say the lack of BS2+ shooting makes us look quite fondly at the Commander. Our lack of re-roll all hits (only once with Kauyon) and 1s to wound (things SM can do the entire game) also forces our hand into better stuff and repeat it ad nauseum.
I believe the first step is to make other stuff more interesting (reducing costs, changing unit structure or giving them special rules), as also reworking the markerlight table to dish out 2 +1 to hit bonuses.
One of Tau's biggest appeal was 'quality of shooting', in the fact we managed to deal terrific blows to the enemy with our technology, while AM was our counterpart with 'quantity of shooting'. This new markerlight table removed this factor for rank and file troops, making people crave for Commander's abilities.
Yeah spam lists are really annoying and I would never play against anybody who spams.
A few squads here and there, some different units and the game is just a lot more fun. for everybody.
Agreed riptide spam is why many people felt the tau nerfs were 'fair' or in many areas people would not play against tau.
Regardless of the fact that many people did NOT spam them - no one liked those lists, and in association tau and tau players in general.
As for your opinion on spam lists, please keep that out of here.
Also saying "don't post that here" - sorry, but going to disagree - spamming stormravens or stormsurges is not 'tactics' its a crutch creating situation that is un-fun for your opponent and is merely exploiting some rule combination that exemplifies the waac mentality (yes, you can have this without realizing it).
In fact, I would consider intelligent tactics to involve movement, positioning, durability, longevity, damage output and cost - in a blend of how to balance those aspects and their clever combinations to achieve positive results against a variety of lists. Doing so without spam is tactics.
You can have efficiency and 'math' in tactics - but excessive spam is a unsatisfactory game experience - eventually for both players.
Tpiddy wrote: Hey so new Tau player here. I bought a start collecting box and some different minis on ebay so far.
Aiming to do a 1,000 point list. I purchased one broadside a ghostkeel and some stealth suits as well.
Is there a consensus on what a broadside loadout should look like? I like the look of the HRR and was thinking HRR with two SMS for his loadout.
Is the high yield missile pod a better option?
And are support systems worth it on a broadside? What kind of drones should I use?
They are both decent (not perhaps excellent, though as they once were).
If you are fielding HRR suits, perhaps go for high volume of shots on other platforms (thinking gun drones?); if you're going for HYMP, then try fielding high-intensity firepower (thinking, quad-fusion commanders).
Drone controllers are good on stealth suits, if you have mobile drones to support/make use of the benefit.
Don't over commit on the broadsides though, they are very very expensive and, compare their cost to a tank in terms of survivability, quite fragile.
Tpiddy wrote: Hey so new Tau player here. I bought a start collecting box and some different minis on ebay so far.
Aiming to do a 1,000 point list. I purchased one broadside a ghostkeel and some stealth suits as well.
Is there a consensus on what a broadside loadout should look like? I like the look of the HRR and was thinking HRR with two SMS for his loadout.
Is the high yield missile pod a better option?
And are support systems worth it on a broadside? What kind of drones should I use?
HYMP is really bad at the moment
The closest redeeming feature of a HYMP setup (HYMP, SMS, ATS)
Isn't even the effectiveness of the HYMP, but the fact that SMS+ATS is actually decent.
You could say well... why not just replace HYMP with HRR and keep the SMS+ATS...
Because HRR+ATS is a little pointless...
If you want Missile Pods, then Crisis Suits are slightly more effective at running them.
Both with and without ATS.
Then Monat (Commanders) are vastly more effective than both of them.
The other option is to do
HRR+Missile Drones+DC+Plasma Guns
In which case the Missile Drones are still as effective as the HYMP would have been.
This also alludes nicely to having the Gun Drones hang out here, but the annoying thing is the vastly different ranges with a relatively static line...
Xenomancers wrote: Question- if you are going to bring 3 hammerheads and 1 has an ion cannon - would you give the ion to longstrike? He can't overheat if he stay still but he also does well with a rail as hes wounding most tanks/monsters on a 2+ and does mortal wounds on a 5 or 6. It's a tough call - another question - is the Ion Cannon even worth it over the rail on any hammerhead?
NEVER!
Longstrike is Rail Gun ONLY
Being able to cause d3 mortal wounds on a 5+ is absolutely massive
Not to mention he wounds everything on a 2+
Ion Cannon would only wound T8 on a 3+, very disappointing.
but seriously, What does the Ion Cannon even do?
Heavy d3... and only d3 damage... for 55 points
Know else has that stat line... CIB... (factoring in ATS)
It's straight up the exact same stat line... d3 shots with d3 damage, and the CIB only costs 18 points.
For the Ion Cannon to be close to viable, it needs to do d6 damage and be AP-3
Oh, and don't forget... A Longstrike buffed Hammerhead still wouldn't overheat.
Good point - so no need for longstrike to be an ion. CIB is strong - it's not 60 inch range though. Also longstrike ion is 2+ to wound anything t7 or less. with potentially 3d3 damage getting though. I think the biggest issue is the ion also costs more than the rail :(.
And are support systems worth it on a broadside? What kind of drones should I use?
HYMP is really bad at the moment
The other option is to do
HRR+Missile Drones+DC+Plasma Guns
Given I'd always want the HRR shooting at maximum effectiveness, Target Lock seems the default Support System for HRR.
HRR Broadside is insanely open in which support system you give it, since it doesn't NEED any of them.
CDS for increasing your chance of devastating an Overwatch. (Tho CDS is probably still bad, really should have been on a 5+ like Eldar)
DC if you took Missile Drones
EWO to counter Deep Strikes
MT if you're doing a low/no ML list
SI to increase it's survivability
TL to potentially increase it's maneuverability
VT so it can shoot down the wealth of fliers in the game at the moment
... ATS if you REALLY if you feel 48 points for 8 S5 AP1 Ignore Cover Shots are good... (and if you want to be a jerk to the very few Land Raiders people still use... or the rare Tank in Cover)
davethepak wrote: Agreed riptide spam is why many people felt the tau nerfs were 'fair' or in many areas people would not play against tau.
Regardless of the fact that many people did NOT spam them - no one liked those lists, and in association tau and tau players in general.
As for your opinion on spam lists, please keep that out of here.
Also saying "don't post that here" - sorry, but going to disagree - spamming stormravens or stormsurges is not 'tactics' its a crutch creating situation that is un-fun for your opponent and is merely exploiting some rule combination that exemplifies the waac mentality (yes, you can have this without realizing it).
In fact, I would consider intelligent tactics to involve movement, positioning, durability, longevity, damage output and cost - in a blend of how to balance those aspects and their clever combinations to achieve positive results against a variety of lists. Doing so without spam is tactics.
You can have efficiency and 'math' in tactics - but excessive spam is a unsatisfactory game experience - eventually for both players.
Having 3 Stormsurges in this edition is a tactic that needs to be discussed. We know by math there are other more efficient options, but that math doesn't really include survivability, movement, or combos, nor does it include potential match ups. We need to decide if it can be worth it and I'm looking for insight on the subject. And by "worth it" I mean competitively. If one can not provide meaningful experience or insight and only talks about spamming being waac, then it's really has no value in this conversation. I guess I could be wrong, but doesn't tactics involve some kind of comptetitiveness? The goal is to outplay your opponent after all.
Having 3 Stormsurges in this edition is a tactic that needs to be discussed. We know by math there are other more efficient options, but that math doesn't really include survivability, movement, or combos, nor does it include potential match ups. We need to decide if it can be worth it and I'm looking for insight on the subject. And by "worth it" I mean competitively. If one can not provide meaningful experience or insight and only talks about spamming being waac, then it's really has no value in this conversation. I guess I could be wrong, but doesn't tactics involve some kind of comptetitiveness? The goal is to outplay your opponent after all.
Be careful...
If you bring too many 3xSS to Tournaments, they are going to RipTide it
Having 3 Stormsurges in this edition is a tactic that needs to be discussed. We know by math there are other more efficient options, but that math doesn't really include survivability, movement, or combos, nor does it include potential match ups. We need to decide if it can be worth it and I'm looking for insight on the subject. And by "worth it" I mean competitively. If one can not provide meaningful experience or insight and only talks about spamming being waac, then it's really has no value in this conversation. I guess I could be wrong, but doesn't tactics involve some kind of comptetitiveness? The goal is to outplay your opponent after all.
Be careful...
If you bring too many 3xSS to Tournaments, they are going to RipTide it
Now that would be hilarious. It's not like we're making any waves in competitive scene now anyhow.
Retrogamer0001 wrote:For competitive games, my SS is staying home. It just doesn't seem worth it, esp with it's lack of movement and reduced firepower.
That's why you need to bring three and Shadowsun. It partly fixes the mobility and increase the firepower but you get to keep your armys overall toughness. Granted, SS is not that survivable. I see it might work, depending on meta.
Speaking of loadouts generally, Velocity Tracker is nuts on Stormsurge and Crisis suits as it only requires the target to have the keyword FLY, which many, many good units have in this new and still developing meta.
I can see a case for having your 3 stormsurges nailed down within 6" of each other, with Shadowsun in the middle. Charging that would not be very much fun at all.
You wouldn't be able to play any missions of course...
I can't really see the "moral" objection to stormsurge spam. How is it different to playing a knight army? Why would it be worse to spam stormsurges than commanders, for example?
And in general, this is a tactics forum. People should be allowed to discuss the tactics they find effective. If spam is effective that points to a failure at internal balance from the game designers, not a defect on the part of the players.
My gut instinct is that 3-4 Surges in a list is not worthwhile. The pulse driver is basically 2 lascannons, so to me, the blastcannon is the main weapon of choice. The 54 pt savings doesn't hurt, either. The secondary weapons aren't really all that impressive to me, but flamers are tough to ignore. That many ATS-supported autohits will cause a bunch of damage. You may choose to roll with burst cannons to get some extra juice out of your EWO, but I think that's a mediocre substitute for flamers. Support system-wise, I feel like an ATS and a shield gen are basically mandatory. EWO is a really good option and probably what I'd pick, but stims and VTs are worthwhile, as well. I just think that warding off annoying special weapons drops and attempted first-turn charges is a big enough deal to invest that last slot on it.
All that costs 458/model, a relatively high price for the firepower and durability you get. For instance, compare it to a Spartan which has 8 lascannons, 2 heavy bolters, an extra toughness, better BS, non-trivial close combat ability, impressive transport capacity, and 4 more wounds for 50 extra pts. Granted, it doesn't have an invulnerable save or the other bells and whistles, but I think I'd rather have the heavier firepower.
In any event, Stormsurges are still going to be pretty difficult to eliminate and will be spewing their massive payload of S5 for quite some time. However, therein lies the problem. Gun Drones obviously are not durable, but they are dirt freaking cheap. Between Gun Drones, Fire Warriors, and all the rest S5 spam is what we specialize in. Roughly speaking, per Surge outlined above, you get 6d6+8 (avg 29) shots of small arms fire. 64pts of Gun Drones can top that. Maybe throw in a few extra to account for the ATS, but that's still a bit disheartening. You'll also need to toss in some source of heavy firepower to rival the main gun, so we're probably talking 250-ish pts of stuff to equal the Surge's raw damage output. Is the extra durability worth 200pts? Maybe?
Keep in mind that Stormsurges are very marker-dependent still. You'll need a fair amount of Pathfinders (or whatever source you prefer) to keep them functioning optimally. Maybe toss in a Vanguard detachment with a couple of fusion Commanders and several PF units on top on the Super-Heavy detachment.
You could fairly easily fit 3 Surges, 2 Commanders, 15-20 Pathfinders, and some Gun Drones in 2000pts. Given the degree of area denial and potential for precision strikes against tough opposing targets, I think you could really give other competitive armies a run for their money. You'll probably suffer when trying to claim objectives due to how painfully slow Stormsurges are, however.
Mandragola wrote: I can't really see the "moral" objection to stormsurge spam. How is it different to playing a knight army? Why would it be worse to spam stormsurges than commanders, for example?
People will say 'because knights can only field themselves, while xx army has many other options! They SHOULD use them instead!'
Truth to be told, 6'x4' is too small for big pieces like Knights and larger minis - but if Knights can be used, so anything at least as big as them can too.
Don't pay any mind to such arguments - they don't hold any substance in a game that everything can hurt everything
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Is there any reason to take a Stormsurge over a Y'Vahra? Almost the same cost in real dollars, better mobility, WAY better firepower...
The availability and acceptance of FW units in your local meta is the only real limiting factor.
Agree. I'd say both the FW Riptides variants are superior to the similarly-costed Stormsurge. They aren't as durable, but I'd rather have the offensive output.
Storm surge is garbo IMO. Where it used to be a living god now it is heavily nerfed.
It used to have great CC ability with stomps - it's blast cannon used to put out ap3 small blasts and D weapons up close! It's missiles used to annihilate the one thing you wanted dead turn 1. Plus it used to be easy to get this this rerolling 1's with bs5. Plus it used to double it's firepower if it stayed still.
Now it does none of that. AND IT COST MORE. Forget the thing exists. You would get way more mileage out of 50 Fire-warriors.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Is there any reason to take a Stormsurge over a Y'Vahra? Almost the same cost in real dollars, better mobility, WAY better firepower...
Some groups don’t allow Forgeworld unless it’s a forge world game while the Stormsurge being in the codex is a valid unit. Just something to keep in mind if you play around different groups.
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
I've seen people discussing this as 'shots' being different from 'attacks'. I find this line of thinking lacking substance and probably not the intent of the company.
I play it gives only 3 shots at 18" per infantry model and 6 shots at 9" per drone model (they don't get the Pulse Accelerator benefit)
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
I've seen people discussing this as 'shots' being different from 'attacks'. I find this line of thinking lacking substance and probably not the intent of the company.
I play it gives only 3 shots at 18" per infantry model and 6 shots at 9" per drone model (they don't get the Pulse Accelerator benefit)
To me, the RAW is muddled by the wording (In the actual rules, it distinguishes shots and attacks by allowing shots to be split among different targets but not allowing attacks to be split, but the word "shot" is also used in place of "attack" in one of the example texts), but the intent seems reasonably clear on what the Fire Blade was intended to do (though I can't say the same for the intent behind other uses of shots versus attacks).
An interesting question of RAW, but like the Longstrike self-buff, the RAI seems pretty clear (except this time, it's also the more conservative ruling).
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Is there any reason to take a Stormsurge over a Y'Vahra? Almost the same cost in real dollars, better mobility, WAY better firepower...
Some groups don’t allow Forgeworld unless it’s a forge world game while the Stormsurge being in the codex is a valid unit. Just something to keep in mind if you play around different groups.
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
Never heard of a "forge world game" before, and I've also never experienced anyone refusing to play a game with forge world models sheerly on principle, so I don't think this will occur too often. I think the Y'Vahra is one of the saving graces of the Tau faction right now, considering how almost every other suit we have access to was gutted mercilessly.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Is there any reason to take a Stormsurge over a Y'Vahra? Almost the same cost in real dollars, better mobility, WAY better firepower...
Some groups don’t allow Forgeworld unless it’s a forge world game while the Stormsurge being in the codex is a valid unit. Just something to keep in mind if you play around different groups.
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
Never heard of a "forge world game" before, and I've also never experienced anyone refusing to play a game with forge world models sheerly on principle, so I don't think this will occur too often. I think the Y'Vahra is one of the saving graces of the Tau faction right now, considering how almost every other suit we have access to was gutted mercilessly.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Is there any reason to take a Stormsurge over a Y'Vahra? Almost the same cost in real dollars, better mobility, WAY better firepower...
Some groups don’t allow Forgeworld unless it’s a forge world game while the Stormsurge being in the codex is a valid unit. Just something to keep in mind if you play around different groups.
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
Never heard of a "forge world game" before, and I've also never experienced anyone refusing to play a game with forge world models sheerly on principle, so I don't think this will occur too often. I think the Y'Vahra is one of the saving graces of the Tau faction right now, considering how almost every other suit we have access to was gutted mercilessly.
Perhaps it depends on what area you live in. Most of the groups I play in around here do not allow Forgeworld units unless all players agreed beforehand or it’s a known Forgeworld open night. They do not see Forgeworld as part of the core game.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Is there any reason to take a Stormsurge over a Y'Vahra? Almost the same cost in real dollars, better mobility, WAY better firepower...
Some groups don’t allow Forgeworld unless it’s a forge world game while the Stormsurge being in the codex is a valid unit. Just something to keep in mind if you play around different groups.
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
Never heard of a "forge world game" before, and I've also never experienced anyone refusing to play a game with forge world models sheerly on principle, so I don't think this will occur too often. I think the Y'Vahra is one of the saving graces of the Tau faction right now, considering how almost every other suit we have access to was gutted mercilessly.
Yeah, we're a "No Forge World" group, for instance, and we used to not use special characters either. Restrictions! We can has them.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Is there any reason to take a Stormsurge over a Y'Vahra? Almost the same cost in real dollars, better mobility, WAY better firepower...
Some groups don’t allow Forgeworld unless it’s a forge world game while the Stormsurge being in the codex is a valid unit. Just something to keep in mind if you play around different groups.
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
Never heard of a "forge world game" before, and I've also never experienced anyone refusing to play a game with forge world models sheerly on principle, so I don't think this will occur too often. I think the Y'Vahra is one of the saving graces of the Tau faction right now, considering how almost every other suit we have access to was gutted mercilessly.
My local group and league are also No Forgeworld.
There are literally only 2 guys that even own any Forgeworld, and they only use them rarely.
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
I've seen people discussing this as 'shots' being different from 'attacks'. I find this line of thinking lacking substance and probably not the intent of the company.
I play it gives only 3 shots at 18" per infantry model and 6 shots at 9" per drone model (they don't get the Pulse Accelerator benefit)
That's my reading as well, but GW really should be clear on it in the FAQ, because people will argue anything.
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
I've seen people discussing this as 'shots' being different from 'attacks'. I find this line of thinking lacking substance and probably not the intent of the company.
I play it gives only 3 shots at 18" per [Pulse Rifle armed] Infantry model and 6 shots at 9" per drone model (they don't get the Pulse Accelerator benefit)
That's my reading as well, but GW really should be clear on it in the FAQ, because people will argue anything.
Haechi wrote: I'm completely against FW in tournaments as their entries are completely overpowered and harmful to the balance of the game.
I think this is a rather ignorant thing to say, considering that most major tournaments usually allow FW in lists - ITC and NOVA in particular. As far as being "harmful to the game", well, GW does enough harm with their attempts at rules-writing and butchering some factions down to uselessness or spamminess. FW provide more unit options for armies, with the potential (when done well) to plug gaps in the main codexes.
Haechi wrote: I'm completely against FW in tournaments as their entries are completely overpowered and harmful to the balance of the game.
Compared to 2 point Brimstone Deamons and 100 point Changlings on the under costed side or 171 point Skyrays and 304 pt Riptides on the over costed side? FW point costs are just as wacky as the normal GW indices.
Furthermore, I'd contend that the only things not excruciatingly overpriced in our FW catalogue are R'Varnas and Y'Vahras, which I believe are costed fairly. Tiger Sharks will join that crew if they get some rules modifications to allow them to shoot all their weaponry all the time.
Haechi wrote: I'm completely against FW in tournaments as their entries are completely overpowered and harmful to the balance of the game.
Because 7th ed scatterbikes and wraithknights were balanced?
Or conversely 8th ed tetras are completely overpowered?
FW is variety and is no harder to get than any GW proper rules the whole belief that FW is not GW needs to stop. FW is no more broken or bad for balance than anything GW proper puts out.
OT: I had a game vs DE and won it pretty handedly. Although a big part of that was seizing on him and getting to kill 2 of his raiders and half a big kabalite squad turn 1. Even so he made a pretty good come back, witches are nasty and having to roll off to leave combat hurts our suits a lot. Still good game though. Looking forward to testing out my y'varha this week going to see if its really as good as everyone thinks it is.
All right guys I finally got the time to finish writing my first draft list, I tried to include a mix of units I loved and good deal boxes like the Start Collecting and Optimised Pathfinder Team, but I quickly ended up with looots of points (especially when I included two teams of Crisis suits) so I tried that list. I like Broadsides but I don't know how to fit them in this 2000 pts list, and I don't know if I have enough damage dealer weapons to take care of 10+ W vehicles and monsters, you tell me. I'll explain my choices and the roles I intend them to fill.
TACTICS:
So the idea is to have these 10 Pulse Carbines FW in a nice position, alongside the Pathfinders with the PA and Grav drones and the Ethereal hidden somewhere with them to give them rerolls of 1 to Hit. Longstrike, preferably in a cozy firing position behind the lines. The Fireblade will accompany the two min squads of Pulse Carbines FW, using his markerlights when he can for the teams to use. The 10 Breachers will go in the Devilfish and disembark along the two drones of the Devilfish on a key position to disrupt the enemy's firing line or support units.
The Ghostkeel would infiltrate in a manner as to take some attention from my main battleforce, to give them one turn or two to position well enough as to be the most effective. I gave him the Cyclic Ion Raker because I feel it's enough firepower to deal with elite units while the two Fusion Blasters are still there in case of a need for can opening. Now the XV25 suits, I think this will be tricky if it's even possible but my hypothesis is that I could use them nicely. The key being to infiltrate them somewhere close enough to the enemy's big guns, and have them survive a turn to close the distance to them and put on a Homing Beacon to deliver the Crisis Team with their Fusion Blasters, Cyclic Ion Blaster and Missile Pod. I had one with 2 Flamers to deal with the bubblewrap, and a Shield Generator to eat eventual returning fire a little easier if I fail to destroy my target at once. I bought VT in case of flyers, it's not a lot of points and loads of stuff have the Fly keyword nowadays. It's bonus if I successfully marklight the target beforehand.
I'd use the Kroots as one massive force supporting itself and taking some heat on them instead of my shiny gunline. If they don't shoot the Kroots they have an overpopulation problem anyway. Now I notice the Shaper don't have the Scout move but still this can work, I'd place him between all of his Kroots if possible so they can benefit from the Ld and rerolls of 1 to Wound, as it affects shooting attacks too this could be interesting. What would be perfect would be to be able to proc the Ritual Blade kill to forgo the Morale phase that could seriously hurt them, but that looks rather unfeasable.
The Piranhas would be used to troll, as you suggested earlier. Maybe even pick up far objectives, who knows ? They're cheap and reasonably tough. The second Pathfinder team would try to find a cozy spot to mark targets for the others and occasionaly get a shot with the Rail Rifle. I love Rail guns, have I told you yet ? As for Darkstrider, I hesitate between placing him with the Breacher team and the big squad of Pulse Rifles and Pathfinders with their Ethereal, it would be a fluffier choice than to have the scout leader enter a building like a SWAT team don't you think ?
The things I'm not sure about:
- Number and disposition of Markerlights: I have a grand total of 12 Markerlights sources, I'm not sure that's enough but I'm not loaded on Seeker Missiles neither, so I think I have the right number but you tell me.
- HQ choices: I fear Longstrike may be nice but that you guys love the Coldstar Commander, I reckon I just checked the points and saw he was not really expensive points-wise so I'll consider. What would he bring me ? How to use Kauyon or Mont'ka to the best with my list ?
- Quantity of heavy firepower: Do I have enough at 2000 pts or do I need more ? There's considerably more than my AdMech and my AdMech doesn't have enough firepower yet, so I'm conflicted.
- The loadout of all Battlesuits: I have no idea if my choices are really efficient, I payed the 40 pts Shield for the Ghostkeel because I feel he'll be eating lead as soon as first turn and there's so many Lascannons, a 4++ should be nice. As for the Crisis suits, I planned on using two teams with a similar versatile loadout (one more troop-killing than the other, more vehicle-killing) but it costed loads of points and I felt I lacked numbers for my army. Small elite armies die rather quickly most of the time, except for Super-Heavies lists of course, so I love having loads of guys.
Please tell me your opinion on this, I need your experience and different minds may provide other points of view that I wouldn't have thought of otherwise Thanks for taking the time to read all this and helping me !
Vector Strike wrote: If changes come to Tau at all, they won't be before either the codex or the Chapter Approved book (due to the end of the year) - unless, of course, terrible typos like the AX-1-0 not being able to fire its main guns.
Until there, all we can do is to test, test and do more testing until we find what can deal with whatever the enemy throws at us.
If even after 3-4 months nothing changes much, then yeah we'll be able to have enough data to ask for changes. The game is (officially) 3 weeks old!
What I can agree, though, is that we don't have the feel of 'quality of shooting' we had back in 7e, in comparison to the 'volume of shooting' from Astra Militarum. The new markerlights don't match well with the BS4+. Either should change, but I rather test it even more than ask for it right now
I have good news friend. I emailed forge world and go this response.
Hi,
Thanks for the email Our rules team have been very busy working on FAQ and updates for our recently released Imperial Armour index books. Whilst they are still working on a few of the data sheets we have some good news for the ones you are asking about.
The rules team have given us a temporary fix till the official FAQ is released so please feel free to use these in your games of Warhammer 40k for the time being.
Tiger Shark AX-10 has a macro weapon but is not titanic and can not hover so it can never use the weapon.For the Tiger Shark it should have the following text:
Titan-killer: A model with this rule may fire a Macro type weapon whilst moving even if it is not Titanic, but on any turn in which the controlling player elects to fire a Macro weapon while moving it may not fire weapons other than those with the Macro type until the start of the controlling player's next turn.
How would you rate my reply?
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If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.
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Forge World
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Yeah, unfortunately 600pts is a ridiculous amount to pay for 2 heavy rail cannon alone. Having the other weapons available would make it a worthwhile purchase, as I noted above.
Haechi wrote: I'm completely against FW in tournaments as their entries are completely overpowered and harmful to the balance of the game.
Huh, no? GW stuff is way out of hand. The new 5-6 SM flyer meta is entirely composed of GW flyers.
Back in 7th, GWOP stuff were leagues ahead of any FWOP stuff.
I can understand prohibiting FW now because their indexes were terribly done, but not in 6th, not in 7th and certainly not after FWFAQs its 4 indexes (2 of them already were).
---
On AX-1-0: firstly, I too was dismayed by not being able to use the other weapons. But it's only 70p not being used... not even a minimal Stealth Suit unit or a naked Commander. I can live without 70p of weapons if I have access to 2 HRCs. Average 14 S18 wounds for less than 600p seems nice.
FW monsters and LoW are overpowered beasts with which no GW entries can compete. An Eldar Cobra can one shot an IK. Titans. You can't play against someone who fields heavy FW entries without having some yourself. I like FW stuff, but I don't want them in my games. Luckily for me, many tournaments don't allow them and those are the ones I go to.
On AX-1-0: firstly, I too was dismayed by not being able to use the other weapons. But it's only 70p not being used... not even a minimal Stealth Suit unit or a naked Commander. I can live without 70p of weapons if I have access to 2 HRCs. Average 14 S18 wounds for less than 600p seems nice.
It sounds really awesome the way you stated it, but that's about the same amount of damage that a fusion Commander deals for 160pts. You'd need some extra oomph in there to compensate for the Shark wounding on 2s instead of 3s or 4s, so just say 2 Commanders. That's still a 250pt savings. The TS is obviously far more.mobile, versatile, and resilient, though, so that's enough to make it a mediocre to average unit, in my mind. With the use of it's 70pts of weapons, which isn't nearly as negligible as you seem to want it to be, it'd actually be a pretty good gun platform.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FW monsters and LoW are overpowered beasts with which no GW entries can compete.
it's clearly your choice to play however you like, but I feel like you're restricting some really cool models and rules for bad or outright false reasons. For example, someone was tinkering with the number in the General forum, and Conscripts stand a chance against a Warhound, pound for pound. What you're saying about rules imbalances was perhaps more true in the past, but things have smoothed out with the new rule set. Again, most of the entries in the Tau FW line are overpriced garbage. Even the once-broken Ta'unar is now a fairly-costed or slightly expensive beast. Its firepower is pedestrian for the points, but being able to pass wounds off to drones is a stupidly useful ability for a model that size. I haven't seen one in action, but I'm going to guess that factor is worth a fair amount of extra points.
Unusual Suspect wrote: You need to get more than 9" on the charge (9 on the dice +1" bubble) to succeed, for both the Deepstriking transport and anything disembarking from it. That happens quite rarely (somewhere around ~25-30%, or just under 50% if you can reroll charges).
It is 57%. With a rerollable charge you get the nine or above 57% of the time. Regards
MilkmanAl wrote: It sounds really awesome the way you stated it, but that's about the same amount of damage that a fusion Commander deals for 160pts. You'd need some extra oomph in there to compensate for the Shark wounding on 2s instead of 3s or 4s, so just say 2 Commanders. That's still a 250pt savings. The TS is obviously far more.mobile, versatile, and resilient, though, so that's enough to make it a mediocre to average unit, in my mind. With the use of it's 70pts of weapons, which isn't nearly as negligible as you seem to want it to be, it'd actually be a pretty good gun platform.
Well, most stuff an AX-1-0 would shoot have T8 or more, so let's go with it. The target is a Baneblade. No markerlights and more than 9" away.
1 commander would hit 83% of the time and deal 1.67 wounds. In average (3), this will become 5 damage. Baneblades have W26, so we'll need 6 commanders to deal with it in one turn - 960p.
1 AX-1-0 will hit 67% of the time, dealing 1.33 wounds. In average (7), this will become 9.33 damage. We'd need almost 3 AX-1-0s to down it on 1 turn - 1749p
Yeah, the commanders are more capable. But the AX-1-0 and the HRC look so cool I'll give them a shot sometimes I think the Figther-Bomber is a better deal, though.
I have good news friend. I emailed forge world and go this response.
Hi,
Thanks for the email Our rules team have been very busy working on FAQ and updates for our recently released Imperial Armour index books. Whilst they are still working on a few of the data sheets we have some good news for the ones you are asking about.
The rules team have given us a temporary fix till the official FAQ is released so please feel free to use these in your games of Warhammer 40k for the time being.
Tiger Shark AX-10 has a macro weapon but is not titanic and can not hover so it can never use the weapon.For the Tiger Shark it should have the following text:
Titan-killer: A model with this rule may fire a Macro type weapon whilst moving even if it is not Titanic, but on any turn in which the controlling player elects to fire a Macro weapon while moving it may not fire weapons other than those with the Macro type until the start of the controlling player's next turn.
How would you rate my reply?
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If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.
Regards,
Forge World
If you have a query about your order, please call
0115 900 4995 within the UK
Yeah, we are paying 70 points for those guns and then having FW tell us to banter off you can't use them. It is moronic. Just make the Flyer "Titanic", like the Eldar Vampires or decrease the cost of the base platform.
MilkmanAl wrote: It sounds really awesome the way you stated it, but that's about the same amount of damage that a fusion Commander deals for 160pts. You'd need some extra oomph in there to compensate for the Shark wounding on 2s instead of 3s or 4s, so just say 2 Commanders. That's still a 250pt savings. The TS is obviously far more.mobile, versatile, and resilient, though, so that's enough to make it a mediocre to average unit, in my mind. With the use of it's 70pts of weapons, which isn't nearly as negligible as you seem to want it to be, it'd actually be a pretty good gun platform.
Well, most stuff an AX-1-0 would shoot have T8 or more, so let's go with it. The target is a Baneblade. No markerlights and more than 9" away.
1 commander would hit 83% of the time and deal 1.67 wounds. In average (3), this will become 5 damage. Baneblades have W26, so we'll need 6 commanders to deal with it in one turn - 960p.
1 AX-1-0 will hit 67% of the time, dealing 1.33 wounds. In average (7), this will become 9.33 damage. We'd need almost 3 AX-1-0s to down it on 1 turn - 1749p
Yeah, the commanders are more capable. But the AX-1-0 and the HRC look so cool I'll give them a shot sometimes I think the Figther-Bomber is a better deal, though.
The AX-1-0 hits on a 2+, wounds on 2+ and any damage done is doubled thanks to the Macro weapon type, so 2 of them should pretty handily bring one baneblade down in a turn
MilkmanAl wrote: Even the once-broken Ta'unar is now a fairly-costed or slightly expensive beast. Its firepower is pedestrian for the points, but being able to pass wounds off to drones is a stupidly useful ability for a model that size. I haven't seen one in action, but I'm going to guess that factor is worth a fair amount of extra points.
LOL...I didn't realize they gave the Taunar the "Battlesuit" Keyword. Which means that the ethereal can buff him with sense of stone and storm of fire as well. Strange as the smaller Stormsurge lacks that keyword.
MilkmanAl wrote: It sounds really awesome the way you stated it, but that's about the same amount of damage that a fusion Commander deals for 160pts. You'd need some extra oomph in there to compensate for the Shark wounding on 2s instead of 3s or 4s, so just say 2 Commanders. That's still a 250pt savings. The TS is obviously far more.mobile, versatile, and resilient, though, so that's enough to make it a mediocre to average unit, in my mind. With the use of it's 70pts of weapons, which isn't nearly as negligible as you seem to want it to be, it'd actually be a pretty good gun platform.
Well, most stuff an AX-1-0 would shoot have T8 or more, so let's go with it. The target is a Baneblade. No markerlights and more than 9" away.
1 commander would hit 83% of the time and deal 1.67 wounds. In average (3), this will become 5 damage. Baneblades have W26, so we'll need 6 commanders to deal with it in one turn - 960p.
1 AX-1-0 will hit 67% of the time, dealing 1.33 wounds. In average (7), this will become 9.33 damage. We'd need almost 3 AX-1-0s to down it on 1 turn - 1749p
Yeah, the commanders are more capable. But the AX-1-0 and the HRC look so cool I'll give them a shot sometimes I think the Figther-Bomber is a better deal, though.
The AX-1-0 hits on a 2+, wounds on 2+ and any damage done is doubled thanks to the Macro weapon type, so 2 of them should pretty handily bring one baneblade down in a turn
They have to move, so they hit on... waaaait. Macro weapons aren't Heavy! AX-1-0 hits on 2+ with everything it has (except Seekers, which are Heavy)!
Also, I did forget Macro weapons do 2x damage vs Titanic (which a Baneblade is). Recalculating...
1 AX-1-0 will hit 83% of the time, dealing 1.38 wounds. On average (7). It deals 9.68 damage, but as the target has the TITANIC keyword, it becomes 19.37 dmg. Indeed, 2 of them (1166p) will kill one Baneblade in a turn. A bit more than the commanders, but you're fielding 66% less units for 21.45% increase in price. I think the AX-1-0 is a better deal vs really big stuff (a Baneblade has the same PL of an AX-1-0, but is a bit cheaper in points - 499 vs 583, respectively)
MilkmanAl wrote: It sounds really awesome the way you stated it, but that's about the same amount of damage that a fusion Commander deals for 160pts. You'd need some extra oomph in there to compensate for the Shark wounding on 2s instead of 3s or 4s, so just say 2 Commanders. That's still a 250pt savings. The TS is obviously far more.mobile, versatile, and resilient, though, so that's enough to make it a mediocre to average unit, in my mind. With the use of it's 70pts of weapons, which isn't nearly as negligible as you seem to want it to be, it'd actually be a pretty good gun platform.
Well, most stuff an AX-1-0 would shoot have T8 or more, so let's go with it. The target is a Baneblade. No markerlights and more than 9" away.
1 commander would hit 83% of the time and deal 1.67 wounds. In average (3), this will become 5 damage. Baneblades have W26, so we'll need 6 commanders to deal with it in one turn - 960p.
1 AX-1-0 will hit 67% of the time, dealing 1.33 wounds. In average (7), this will become 9.33 damage. We'd need almost 3 AX-1-0s to down it on 1 turn - 1749p
Yeah, the commanders are more capable. But the AX-1-0 and the HRC look so cool I'll give them a shot sometimes I think the Figther-Bomber is a better deal, though.
The AX-1-0 hits on a 2+, wounds on 2+ and any damage done is doubled thanks to the Macro weapon type, so 2 of them should pretty handily bring one baneblade down in a turn
Each Heavy Rail Cannon does 10.27 wounds to a Baneblade on average (don't forget the extra D3 mortal wounds on a wnd roll of 6+). So the Tiger Shark will inflict 20.513 wounds per turn. The cost per wound inflicted is 28.4 points. A fusion commander can do 5.83 damage per turn outside of 9" (assuming you are manta striking) and has a cost of 27.4 points per wound inflicted. Fusion Commander is still slightly more efficient.
MilkmanAl wrote: Even the once-broken Ta'unar is now a fairly-costed or slightly expensive beast. Its firepower is pedestrian for the points, but being able to pass wounds off to drones is a stupidly useful ability for a model that size. I haven't seen one in action, but I'm going to guess that factor is worth a fair amount of extra points.
LOL...I didn't realize they gave the Taunar the "Battlesuit" Keyword. Which means that the ethereal can buff him with sense of stone and storm of fire as well. Strange as the smaller Stormsurge lacks that keyword.
Stormsurge was called a 'ballistic suit' instead of a battlesuit in the 7th ed codex. The fact its pilots are exposed and don't use neurolinks to control it were made on purpose to differentiate it from battlesuits.
Sadly, as drones don't help vehicles with Saviour Protocols and Ethereal doesn't buff them (Ld bubble aside), Stormsurges seems to be on the bad side of LoWs. A Y'vhara costs more or less the same of a kitted Stormsurge and seems to be a much better deal
Each Heavy Rail Cannon does 10.27 wounds to a Baneblade on average (don't forget the extra D3 mortal wounds on a wnd roll of 6+). So the Tiger Shark will inflict 20.513 wounds per turn. The cost per wound inflicted is 28.4 points. A fusion commander can do 5.83 damage per turn outside of 9" (assuming you are manta striking) and has a cost of 27.4 points per wound inflicted. Fusion Commander is still slightly more efficient.
I'm not considering the +d3 mortal wounds because I'm assuming you'll roll the average on the 2 damage dice (3 and 4). But yeah, it seems pretty dope vs Titanics.
MilkmanAl wrote: Even the once-broken Ta'unar is now a fairly-costed or slightly expensive beast. Its firepower is pedestrian for the points, but being able to pass wounds off to drones is a stupidly useful ability for a model that size. I haven't seen one in action, but I'm going to guess that factor is worth a fair amount of extra points.
LOL...I didn't realize they gave the Taunar the "Battlesuit" Keyword. Which means that the ethereal can buff him with sense of stone and storm of fire as well. Strange as the smaller Stormsurge lacks that keyword.
Pretty sweet, right? I hadn't considered the broader implications of it having the battlesuits keyword, but savior protocols is what makes Ta'unars worthwhile in the face of things like Revenant titans and other titans of similar cost.
Tiger Sharks sounds pretty solid against titans, for sure. They might actually survive a couple rounds of shooting, too, very much unlike fusion Commanders. I really, really want them to have access to their more basic weapons, though. I hope that comes through in the next FWFAQ.
Personally I think the Macro mechanic is real dumb. For example, a Heavy Rail Cannon will do 10.27 wounds to a bane blade, but only 5.13 wounds to a Rhino, making the weapon too situational to use in standard game play. It should do the same amount of damage either way. I mean, you are paying 130 points for a single weapon. Whereas an Eldar Pulsar will do 17.01 damage to either vehicle, making the Pulsar superior in every conceivable way.
Indeed. You'd think a heavy rail cannon would do more damage against smaller targets, if anything. Regardless, it's a hell of a lot more expensive than it should be. The other titan weapons are significantly better. 1 big shot isn't all that impressive. It's nothing a few lascannons can't replicate.
Unusual Suspect wrote: You need to get more than 9" on the charge (9 on the dice +1" bubble) to succeed, for both the Deepstriking transport and anything disembarking from it. That happens quite rarely (somewhere around ~25-30%, or just under 50% if you can reroll charges).
It is 57%. With a rerollable charge you get the nine or above 57% of the time. Regards
Odd.
getting a 9 or higher on 2d6 happens 10 times out of 36 attempts (1/36 12s, 2/36 11s, 3/36 10s, 4/36 9s, totalling 10/36 chance of 9+).
Thus, failing to get a 9 or higher on 2d6 happens 26 times out of 36 attempts (1 - 10/36).
To fail both a roll and a reroll, you must multiply their chances of failure together = (26*26)/(36*36), or 676/1296, which in decimal form is roughly 52.2%.
You thus succeed on a charge only 47.8% (100% - 52.2%).
Unusual Suspect wrote: You need to get more than 9" on the charge (9 on the dice +1" bubble) to succeed, for both the Deepstriking transport and anything disembarking from it. That happens quite rarely (somewhere around ~25-30%, or just under 50% if you can reroll charges).
It is 57%. With a rerollable charge you get the nine or above 57% of the time. Regards
Odd.
getting a 9 or higher on 2d6 happens 10 times out of 36 attempts (1/36 12s, 2/36 11s, 3/36 10s, 4/36 9s, totalling 10/36 chance of 9+).
Thus, failing to get a 9 or higher on 2d6 happens 26 times out of 36 attempts (1 - 10/36).
To fail both a roll and a reroll, you must multiply their chances of failure together = (26*26)/(36*36), or 676/1296, which in decimal form is roughly 52.2%.
You thus succeed on a charge only 47.8% (100% - 52.2%).
What do you know, that's just under 50%!
He meant to say if you had the option to reroll both dice or just a single dice, then the chance becomes 57%
If you can only reroll a single dice its about 52%
If you're forced to reroll both dice, its about 47%
MilkmanAl wrote: Indeed. You'd think a heavy rail cannon would do more damage against smaller targets, if anything. Regardless, it's a hell of a lot more expensive than it should be. The other titan weapons are significantly better. 1 big shot isn't all that impressive. It's nothing a few lascannons can't replicate.
I would expect it to do proportional amounts of damage, generally - its probably a bigger chunk of the smaller vehicle that is getting atomized, but more of the potential destructive potency of the weapon is wasted on such a relatively weak target (like an armor-penetrating round against fleshy targets - yes, it does damage going in and going out, but a hefty portion of the destructive potential leaves the exit wound.
Hit a Titanic target, however, and even a Volcano cannon is probably not wasting much of its total destructive potential (so long as the Titan is still relatively intact), since even a Volcano Cannon is going to need a LOT of its potency to core through an entire titan.
The key, I think, is that often ANY target is either killed or extremely wounded by such weapons - sure, a Rhino is only taking ~5 damage, but that's about half you need to kill the Rhino. ~10 damage on a Baneblade... is fairly proportional. Fire both HRCs at either target, and either target is likely dead or nearly dead.
But I really don't mind that weapons designed explicitly to kill Titans kills Titans better than it kills other things - it is doing what it was intended to do!
Unusual Suspect wrote: You need to get more than 9" on the charge (9 on the dice +1" bubble) to succeed, for both the Deepstriking transport and anything disembarking from it. That happens quite rarely (somewhere around ~25-30%, or just under 50% if you can reroll charges).
It is 57%. With a rerollable charge you get the nine or above 57% of the time. Regards
Odd.
getting a 9 or higher on 2d6 happens 10 times out of 36 attempts (1/36 12s, 2/36 11s, 3/36 10s, 4/36 9s, totalling 10/36 chance of 9+).
Thus, failing to get a 9 or higher on 2d6 happens 26 times out of 36 attempts (1 - 10/36).
To fail both a roll and a reroll, you must multiply their chances of failure together = (26*26)/(36*36), or 676/1296, which in decimal form is roughly 52.2%.
You thus succeed on a charge only 47.8% (100% - 52.2%).
What do you know, that's just under 50%!
He meant to say if you had the option to reroll both dice or just a single dice, then the chance becomes 57%
If you can only reroll a single dice its about 52%
If you're forced to reroll both dice, its about 47%
Fair enough.
I'd have to look, but don't a vast majority of the rerolling charge mechanics require you to reroll both dice (not just a single die)?
CP could potentially step in for a single charge roll, but that's more exception than rule and probably shouldn't be considered the default presumption when approaching the issue of rerolling charges, no?
Unusual Suspect wrote: CP could potentially step in for a single charge roll, but that's more exception than rule and probably shouldn't be considered the default presumption when approaching the issue of rerolling charges, no?
Yes, and no
Everyone has access to it, and a crucial successful charge can massively change the course of a game.
So, you can't deny it's usage.
Especially since without it, your chance of a 9+ charge is only like 28%
I have around 3k of Tau, and two Y'vahra. I'm honestly curious how to even work a list using them (I didn't even buy the index, based on how people were taking the state of Tau.)
Might anyone have any reassuring words, or advice for me with Tau, specifically potentially using both Y'vahra.
I've been consumed with Daemons for quite some time, and need to ease back into Tau for some variety.
Cephalobeard wrote: I have around 3k of Tau, and two Y'vahra. I'm honestly curious how to even work a list using them (I didn't even buy the index, based on how people were taking the state of Tau.)
Might anyone have any reassuring words, or advice for me with Tau, specifically potentially using both Y'vahra.
I've been consumed with Daemons for quite some time, and need to ease back into Tau for some variety.
Y'Vahra are, in my opinion, the strongest possible unit choice for Tau, with Quad Fusion Commanders a close second. I plan on running two Y'Vahra is my own list, with three QFC backed up by hordes of Kroot, Gun Drones, and possibly two squads of Breachers.
Looking at what's available, it's one of the few competitive choices the Tau have been left with since GW boned every other battlesuit we have. Even then, we're paying 403 points with ATS for our Y'Vahra (this won't stop people complaining about it though). Regular Riptides are paperweights now, and the SS is overcosted and ineffective. Triple-flamer Crisis Suits are interesting, waiting to hear more results about those.
Yeah. I was sitting pretty on 9 Crisis Suits, 3 Riptides, Two Y'vahra and a Commander from 7th, as well as around 16 drones. Been trying to figure out my next starting point.
In my next Tau game, I'm going to try an ultra-aggressive list involving 2 Y'Vahras, a couple fusion Commanders, and a whole bunch of Gun Drones. I'm planning to have a couple units of Kroot to screen out early deep strikers trying to piss on my battlesuit parade. I may run a couple Stealth teams for drone controllers and a little extra mobility. That's pretty much it. I think a unit of Pathfinders will find its way in since rerolling 1s is pretty darn nice on things with BS2+, and I want my fusion drops to be as reliable as possible.
I haven't fleshed it out yet, but here's a rough plan for 2000:
Outrider
Commander - 4 fusions, 2 gun drones - 176
23 Gun Drones in 3 units - 184
1994 total
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looks like I got ninja'd a little there thanks to life getting in the way, but suffice it to say, I think that in-your-face is probably the way we're going to play unless the codex changes something dramatically. We don't have a lot of good gun line options unless you count massed Strikers, and the mobile, short ranged firepower we have can be brutal. That fits my personal style, so I'm digging it. I do wish they'd relax the nerf on some of the big suits so we could have a few more options, though.
Aaranis wrote: All right guys I finally got the time to finish writing my first draft list, I tried to include a mix of units I loved and good deal boxes like the Start Collecting and Optimised Pathfinder Team, but I quickly ended up with looots of points (especially when I included two teams of Crisis suits) so I tried that list. I like Broadsides but I don't know how to fit them in this 2000 pts list, and I don't know if I have enough damage dealer weapons to take care of 10+ W vehicles and monsters, you tell me. I'll explain my choices and the roles I intend them to fill.
TACTICS:
So the idea is to have these 10 Pulse Carbines FW in a nice position, alongside the Pathfinders with the PA and Grav drones and the Ethereal hidden somewhere with them to give them rerolls of 1 to Hit. Longstrike, preferably in a cozy firing position behind the lines. The Fireblade will accompany the two min squads of Pulse Carbines FW, using his markerlights when he can for the teams to use. The 10 Breachers will go in the Devilfish and disembark along the two drones of the Devilfish on a key position to disrupt the enemy's firing line or support units.
The Ghostkeel would infiltrate in a manner as to take some attention from my main battleforce, to give them one turn or two to position well enough as to be the most effective. I gave him the Cyclic Ion Raker because I feel it's enough firepower to deal with elite units while the two Fusion Blasters are still there in case of a need for can opening. Now the XV25 suits, I think this will be tricky if it's even possible but my hypothesis is that I could use them nicely. The key being to infiltrate them somewhere close enough to the enemy's big guns, and have them survive a turn to close the distance to them and put on a Homing Beacon to deliver the Crisis Team with their Fusion Blasters, Cyclic Ion Blaster and Missile Pod. I had one with 2 Flamers to deal with the bubblewrap, and a Shield Generator to eat eventual returning fire a little easier if I fail to destroy my target at once. I bought VT in case of flyers, it's not a lot of points and loads of stuff have the Fly keyword nowadays. It's bonus if I successfully marklight the target beforehand.
I'd use the Kroots as one massive force supporting itself and taking some heat on them instead of my shiny gunline. If they don't shoot the Kroots they have an overpopulation problem anyway. Now I notice the Shaper don't have the Scout move but still this can work, I'd place him between all of his Kroots if possible so they can benefit from the Ld and rerolls of 1 to Wound, as it affects shooting attacks too this could be interesting. What would be perfect would be to be able to proc the Ritual Blade kill to forgo the Morale phase that could seriously hurt them, but that looks rather unfeasable.
The Piranhas would be used to troll, as you suggested earlier. Maybe even pick up far objectives, who knows ? They're cheap and reasonably tough. The second Pathfinder team would try to find a cozy spot to mark targets for the others and occasionaly get a shot with the Rail Rifle. I love Rail guns, have I told you yet ? As for Darkstrider, I hesitate between placing him with the Breacher team and the big squad of Pulse Rifles and Pathfinders with their Ethereal, it would be a fluffier choice than to have the scout leader enter a building like a SWAT team don't you think ?
The things I'm not sure about:
- Number and disposition of Markerlights: I have a grand total of 12 Markerlights sources, I'm not sure that's enough but I'm not loaded on Seeker Missiles neither, so I think I have the right number but you tell me.
- HQ choices: I fear Longstrike may be nice but that you guys love the Coldstar Commander, I reckon I just checked the points and saw he was not really expensive points-wise so I'll consider. What would he bring me ? How to use Kauyon or Mont'ka to the best with my list ?
- Quantity of heavy firepower: Do I have enough at 2000 pts or do I need more ? There's considerably more than my AdMech and my AdMech doesn't have enough firepower yet, so I'm conflicted.
- The loadout of all Battlesuits: I have no idea if my choices are really efficient, I payed the 40 pts Shield for the Ghostkeel because I feel he'll be eating lead as soon as first turn and there's so many Lascannons, a 4++ should be nice. As for the Crisis suits, I planned on using two teams with a similar versatile loadout (one more troop-killing than the other, more vehicle-killing) but it costed loads of points and I felt I lacked numbers for my army. Small elite armies die rather quickly most of the time, except for Super-Heavies lists of course, so I love having loads of guys.
Please tell me your opinion on this, I need your experience and different minds may provide other points of view that I wouldn't have thought of otherwise Thanks for taking the time to read all this and helping me !
Anyone have the time to help me with this ? I'm quite lost as of now if that list is nice or not. Thanks in advance
MilkmanAl wrote: In my next Tau game, I'm going to try an ultra-aggressive list involving 2 Y'Vahras, a couple fusion Commanders, and a whole bunch of Gun Drones. I'm planning to have a couple units of Kroot to screen out early deep strikers trying to piss on my battlesuit parade. I may run a couple Stealth teams for drone controllers and a little extra mobility. That's pretty much it. I think a unit of Pathfinders will find its way in since rerolling 1s is pretty darn nice on things with BS2+, and I want my fusion drops to be as reliable as possible.
I haven't fleshed it out yet, but here's a rough plan for 2000:
Outrider
Commander - 4 fusions, 2 gun drones - 176
23 Gun Drones in 3 units - 184
1994 total
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looks like I got ninja'd a little there thanks to life getting in the way, but suffice it to say, I think that in-your-face is probably the way we're going to play unless the codex changes something dramatically. We don't have a lot of good gun line options unless you count massed Strikers, and the mobile, short ranged firepower we have can be brutal. That fits my personal style, so I'm digging it. I do wish they'd relax the nerf on some of the big suits so we could have a few more options, though.
Extremely similar line of thinking, though I will be passing on Markerlights (the table is just too crappy, and nothing in this list will really benefit from it most of the time) and Stealth Suits in favor of more Drones. My thinking is that the Commanders and Y'Vahras fry all the biggest threats immediately, while my blobs of infantry take and hold objectives while skirmishing from a distance with things they can reliably kill. I truly think this is the best way to go with the Tau outside of spamming 9+ Commanders or 100+ Kroot Hounds.
Generally speaking, I'd have enough markers to reliably drop 5 on a tough target turn 1, but that's it. Maybe 15 Pathfinders, at the absolute most. After that, they're just there for spreading around rerolls of 1s.
Longstrike I feel is underrated by many on these boards. He's a solid choice, but he's not nearly as good as Commanders. The Coldstar is merely okay, in my estimation. The movement is certainly nice, but it's nothing you can't get elsewhere on a less expensive platform.
As for Kauyon (don't see much reason to use Mont'ka, honestly), you're probably going to be best served by clustering your forward units as much as possible to get those rerolls. You could clump all your FW, I suppose, but rerolling all your small arms fire is a mediocre use of such a powerful 1-shot ability.
In terms of heavy fire, you're a little on the light side. You may focus more on fusions on the Crisis Suits. Otherwise, the amount of small arms you have should see you through.
The shield gen isn't wasted on the Ghostkeel, but you might be better off saving those 40pts. I'm not sure, really. Give it a shot and see if it works well enough to warrant using.
Extremely similar line of thinking, though I will be passing on Markerlights (the table is just too crappy, and nothing in this list will really benefit from it most of the time) and Stealth Suits in favor of more Drones.
Eh, I think 80pts is a worthwhile investment for game-long rerolls of 1s. To each his own, though. As for Stealth Suits, I'll likely cut back to 1 unit for an extra 15 drones. That's a rather lopsided trade, and I figure that Stealth unit can pawn hits to drones as necessary to get the drones in firing range. I do definitely want a DC around, though. That's a gigantic increase in effectiveness for a very small cost.
What do you guys think about Ghostkeels? This may have already been covered. But they seem like a fairly cheap big guy that has some survivability and damage output. Looks fun to me. (I got one I just haven't built it yet).
I'd have to look, but don't a vast majority of the rerolling charge mechanics require you to reroll both dice (not just a single die)?
Top left on page 178 of the rulebook it says
Some rules allow you to
re-roll a dice roll, which
means you get to roll
some or all of the dice
again. You can never
re-roll a dice more than
once, and re-rolls happen
before modifiers (if any)
are applied.
This suggests that the player gets to decide the number of dice rerolled. Or at least that is the view of most Ork players
At any rate deepstrike screening is quickly becoming an important part of 8th edition meta.
Tpiddy wrote: What do you guys think about Ghostkeels? This may have already been covered. But they seem like a fairly cheap big guy that has some survivability and damage output. Looks fun to me. (I got one I just haven't built it yet).
I think Keels are a really good middle ground unit. They're tough, reasonably pricy, and have okay shooting. I like them most with Ion rakers deployed in the middle of the table being disruptive. I usually play two that way, at 161 points each. They're great at being targets to deal with. If ignored, good, they'll shoot stuff. If focused, good, they're tough and those are shots not going into other things.
Cephalobeard wrote: Yeah. I was sitting pretty on 9 Crisis Suits, 3 Riptides, Two Y'vahra and a Commander from 7th, as well as around 16 drones. Been trying to figure out my next starting point.
Tau are fine.
This keeps coming up - they are different - but it is all not doom and gloom.
did they get nerfs? Yes (needed some too). Did they get too much? yes. (looking at the riptide).
Just the fact that there are many different tau lists doing well, is cause to show they are fine.
Too many people got used to tau when they were OP - and had OP formations - now they are having to work for their games, and its all doom and gloom.
Go check out some boards where the whining is less - like advanced tau tactica - yes, they admit the tau took an over nerf.
But they are also talking about how they are kicking ass and taking names in games.
Finally, pay some attention but do NOT take math hammer and unit efficiency as the end all be all. Pure damage numbers at theoretical ranges DO not represent and actual game or real unit strengths. The coldstar for example, is "not as good" as a regular commander. That is true - in a stand up fight against the same opponnet in the exact same circumstance.
But can the regular commander jump behind lines to take a shot at an enemy character? Can the regular commander do an advance move of 40" and take that objective you need to take right now? No, he can't - and math hammer will NEVER take those things into consideration.
nothing replaces the experience of actually playing games. nothing.
Oh, and the 109 - is OP, don't run more than one unless playing against an all knight army or a bunch of chaos leviathans.
you don't want to be that guy ...
Finally, pay some attention but do NOT take math hammer and unit efficiency as the end all be all. Pure damage numbers at theoretical ranges DO not represent and actual game or real unit strengths. The coldstar for example, is "not as good" as a regular commander. That is true - in a stand up fight against the same opponnet in the exact same circumstance.
But can the regular commander jump behind lines to take a shot at an enemy character? Can the regular commander do an advance move of 40" and take that objective you need to take right now? No, he can't - and math hammer will NEVER take those things into consideration.
nothing replaces the experience of actually playing games. nothing.
QFT.
Personally I'm getting a little tired of going into this thread and seeing every discussion of every unit ending with the same math being posted again and again for the Crisis Commander proving how efficient it is at shooting. Yes, point per wound caused the Commander is our best and most competitive unit. I know that. You know that. Every Tau player on the internet knows that. Stop posting it, please. Instead of saying that every unit besides the Y'vahra is worse than the Commander and shouldn't be taken, let's see if we can't find ways to make those units work.
And as davethepak said, mathhammer is not the end all be all. Movement, survivability, special rules, and most importantly ability to take and hold objectives (remember that outside of the No Mercy mission, unless you can reliably table any opponent you face objectives win you games, not kills) all factor into points costs and unit viability. As much as a Commander is more points efficient at killing things compared to a Crisis Team, that Commander will always be worse at holding objectives than that same Crisis Team (Objectives held by models, not units, and a 3 man unit will always hold objectives better than a single model).
Personally I'm getting a little tired of going into this thread and seeing every discussion of every unit ending with the same math being posted again and again for the Crisis Commander proving how efficient it is at shooting. Yes, point per wound caused the Commander is our best and most competitive unit. I know that. You know that. Every Tau player on the internet knows that. Stop posting it, please. Instead of saying that every unit besides the Y'vahra is worse than the Commander and shouldn't be taken, let's see if we can't find ways to make those units work.
And as davethepak said, mathhammer is not the end all be all. Movement, survivability, special rules, and most importantly ability to take and hold objectives (remember that outside of the No Mercy mission, unless you can reliably table any opponent you face objectives win you games, not kills) all factor into points costs and unit viability. As much as a Commander is more points efficient at killing things compared to a Crisis Team, that Commander will always be worse at holding objectives than that same Crisis Team (Objectives held by models, not units, and a 3 man unit will always hold objectives better than a single model).
Personally I'm getting a little tired of going into this thread and seeing every discussion of every unit ending with the same math being posted again and again for the Crisis Commander proving how efficient it is at shooting. Yes, point per wound caused the Commander is our best and most competitive unit. I know that. You know that. Every Tau player on the internet knows that. Stop posting it, please. Instead of saying that every unit besides the Y'vahra is worse than the Commander and shouldn't be taken, let's see if we can't find ways to make those units work.
And as davethepak said, mathhammer is not the end all be all. Movement, survivability, special rules, and most importantly ability to take and hold objectives (remember that outside of the No Mercy mission, unless you can reliably table any opponent you face objectives win you games, not kills) all factor into points costs and unit viability. As much as a Commander is more points efficient at killing things compared to a Crisis Team, that Commander will always be worse at holding objectives than that same Crisis Team (Objectives held by models, not units, and a 3 man unit will always hold objectives better than a single model).
So...
Vespids
Vespids are OP and more than one shouldn't be taken unless playing against a Knight list. You don't wanna be that guy, do you?
Personally I'm getting a little tired of going into this thread and seeing every discussion of every unit ending with the same math being posted again and again for the Crisis Commander proving how efficient it is at shooting. Yes, point per wound caused the Commander is our best and most competitive unit. I know that. You know that. Every Tau player on the internet knows that. Stop posting it, please. Instead of saying that every unit besides the Y'vahra is worse than the Commander and shouldn't be taken, let's see if we can't find ways to make those units work.
And as davethepak said, mathhammer is not the end all be all. Movement, survivability, special rules, and most importantly ability to take and hold objectives (remember that outside of the No Mercy mission, unless you can reliably table any opponent you face objectives win you games, not kills) all factor into points costs and unit viability. As much as a Commander is more points efficient at killing things compared to a Crisis Team, that Commander will always be worse at holding objectives than that same Crisis Team (Objectives held by models, not units, and a 3 man unit will always hold objectives better than a single model).
So...
Vespids
Vespids are OP and more than one shouldn't be taken unless playing against a Knight list. You don't wanna be that guy, do you?
It's amazing what a something like changing a weapon from 1 shot to 2 shots can do, but Vespids are not OP.
They are just OP in relation to how bad Tau are currently.
In relation to other Armies? They are about even.
Worse than options in a few Armies, Better than options in others.
Its true you don’t have to take a commander suit. One of my best games was a mechanised themed list. 1 Longstirke with 2 hammerheads, 2 Fusion Piranhas (unit), 1 Burst Piranha, 4 markerlight drones & a bomber. 999pts. Technically a fireblade in the middle of the 3 hammerheads would make sense as it boosts all those drones shots but I didn’t want to break my theme.
Piranhas seem really good this edition.
Although the drones on the bomber are really badly written it sounds like they get all the bomber datasheet ability's, hard to hit, can only turn up to 90, Crash and burn. Not that I had any but missile drones get bonding knifes.
Personally I'm getting a little tired of going into this thread and seeing every discussion of every unit ending with the same math being posted again and again for the Crisis Commander proving how efficient it is at shooting. Yes, point per wound caused the Commander is our best and most competitive unit. I know that. You know that. Every Tau player on the internet knows that. Stop posting it, please. Instead of saying that every unit besides the Y'vahra is worse than the Commander and shouldn't be taken, let's see if we can't find ways to make those units work.
And as davethepak said, mathhammer is not the end all be all. Movement, survivability, special rules, and most importantly ability to take and hold objectives (remember that outside of the No Mercy mission, unless you can reliably table any opponent you face objectives win you games, not kills) all factor into points costs and unit viability. As much as a Commander is more points efficient at killing things compared to a Crisis Team, that Commander will always be worse at holding objectives than that same Crisis Team (Objectives held by models, not units, and a 3 man unit will always hold objectives better than a single model).
MilkmanAl wrote:Generally speaking, I'd have enough markers to reliably drop 5 on a tough target turn 1, but that's it. Maybe 15 Pathfinders, at the absolute most. After that, they're just there for spreading around rerolls of 1s.
Longstrike I feel is underrated by many on these boards. He's a solid choice, but he's not nearly as good as Commanders. The Coldstar is merely okay, in my estimation. The movement is certainly nice, but it's nothing you can't get elsewhere on a less expensive platform.
As for Kauyon (don't see much reason to use Mont'ka, honestly), you're probably going to be best served by clustering your forward units as much as possible to get those rerolls. You could clump all your FW, I suppose, but rerolling all your small arms fire is a mediocre use of such a powerful 1-shot ability.
In terms of heavy fire, you're a little on the light side. You may focus more on fusions on the Crisis Suits. Otherwise, the amount of small arms you have should see you through.
The shield gen isn't wasted on the Ghostkeel, but you might be better off saving those 40pts. I'm not sure, really. Give it a shot and see if it works well enough to warrant using.
Extremely similar line of thinking, though I will be passing on Markerlights (the table is just too crappy, and nothing in this list will really benefit from it most of the time) and Stealth Suits in favor of more Drones.
Eh, I think 80pts is a worthwhile investment for game-long rerolls of 1s. To each his own, though. As for Stealth Suits, I'll likely cut back to 1 unit for an extra 15 drones. That's a rather lopsided trade, and I figure that Stealth unit can pawn hits to drones as necessary to get the drones in firing range. I do definitely want a DC around, though. That's a gigantic increase in effectiveness for a very small cost.
Thank you, I'll see about getting more firepower. I'll have 6 XV8 Suits with the two Start Collecting boxes so I'll mount some of them for Vehicle killing and the others for Infantry killing.
Yeah I don't see how to use the Kauyon effectively, speaking of placement. You'd want to have your Commander close to units that shoot well but are spread close enough to benefit from hit. Really odd.
Personally I'm getting a little tired of going into this thread and seeing every discussion of every unit ending with the same math being posted again and again for the Crisis Commander proving how efficient it is at shooting. Yes, point per wound caused the Commander is our best and most competitive unit. I know that. You know that. Every Tau player on the internet knows that. Stop posting it, please. Instead of saying that every unit besides the Y'vahra is worse than the Commander and shouldn't be taken, let's see if we can't find ways to make those units work.
And as davethepak said, mathhammer is not the end all be all. Movement, survivability, special rules, and most importantly ability to take and hold objectives (remember that outside of the No Mercy mission, unless you can reliably table any opponent you face objectives win you games, not kills) all factor into points costs and unit viability. As much as a Commander is more points efficient at killing things compared to a Crisis Team, that Commander will always be worse at holding objectives than that same Crisis Team (Objectives held by models, not units, and a 3 man unit will always hold objectives better than a single model).
So...
Vespids
And gun drones...
Vespid for pin point strikes where you need the accurate firepower since they don't have to deal with drone targetting issues and they can also back cap and do line breaker ect. They are a workhorse, but gun drones are the best for padding out an army here and there just to add some weight of fire. If your ever deep striking any suit without gun drones your doing yourself a disservice.
Haechi wrote: I'm completely against FW in tournaments as their entries are completely overpowered and harmful to the balance of the game.
Huh, no? GW stuff is way out of hand. The new 5-6 SM flyer meta is entirely composed of GW flyers.
It's true that GW often messes things up, but not to the degree that FW does. Did you never play against a Corsair army in 7th? FW brought us the Torrent D weapon, scatter bikes with yet another move, even better wraithknights... the list goes on.
To be fair the FW indexes don't seem all that badly balanced - when the rules work at all. They managed to write rules for relic superheavies that required a FAQ so you could legally include them in an army, a plane that couldn't ever fire its main guns, and there's the ongoing argument about what happens when a Y'Vahra nova charges - among other things.
The issue I see with the FW stuff is that it is probably added as an afterthought and thus not in line with the internal balancing of the codex.
Not that the internal balance of codices is particularly good in the first place, but to me FW has always felt a little out of place, both in terms of rules and design.
Haechi wrote: I'm completely against FW in tournaments as their entries are completely overpowered and harmful to the balance of the game.
Huh, no? GW stuff is way out of hand. The new 5-6 SM flyer meta is entirely composed of GW flyers.
It's true that GW often messes things up, but not to the degree that FW does. Did you never play against a Corsair army in 7th? FW brought us the Torrent D weapon, scatter bikes with yet another move, even better wraithknights... the list goes on.
I did. My opponent had a bunch of those better bikes behind an impassable terrain and his Prince was there too. He attempted to cast a power, periled and had to make a Ld test on 3d6 for all Corsair units within 12". He failed them all and in one phase 400p left the table.
As he used to play Dark Eldar, it was fine having him playing Corsairs. He didn't keep playing them long, however; when Haemonculus Coven book hit, he had a blast with it.
BertBert wrote: The issue I see with the FW stuff is that it is probably added as an afterthought and thus not in line with the internal balancing of the codex.
Things that come out after the initial codex should be even better balanced than as they can adjust the stats before the full release.
Tho, honestly it doesn't seem that FW teams has much communication with normal GW teams.
Yeah I don't see how to use the Kauyon effectively, speaking of placement. You'd want to have your Commander close to units that shoot well but are spread close enough to benefit from hit. Really odd.
I'd like to try it with a Coldstar Commander. Call it at the start of turn 1 and advance 40" to a manta strike drop point. Then have a whole bunch of crisis suits and gun drones drop in next to them. That's a lot of re-rolls you're getting!
This is all rules allowing of course - I did put in a rules query here.
I find it quite funny that the GW design team working on the Tau faction, and the Riptide specifically, reworked the nova reactor in such a way that to even use it wounds the Riptide. It's almost like a sick inside joke.
"Hey Bob, since the playerbase hates the Tau so much and wants it nerfed, let's really increase the points cost, nerf it's main weapon options, and make the Markerlight table it used to use really crappy. Any other ideas on making it even worse?"
"Hmm, well...we could make the Nova Reactor make it cause a mortal wound every turn it's used, but that's kinda..."
The nova reactor has always had a risk of hurting the riptide. In previous editions it had a 1/3 (or 1/9 in a riptide wing, which was part of the problem) chance of failing and hurting the suit. This mattered more when the suit only had 6 wounds, of course.
Now it always works, but it always hurts you - and you have a lot more wounds to start with. That seems fine. The thing that isn't fine is the points cost.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: I find it quite funny that the GW design team working on the Tau faction, and the Riptide specifically, reworked the nova reactor in such a way that to even use it wounds the Riptide. It's almost like a sick inside joke.
"Hey Bob, since the playerbase hates the Tau so much and wants it nerfed, let's really increase the points cost, nerf it's main weapon options, and make the Markerlight table it used to use really crappy. Any other ideas on making it even worse?"
"Hmm, well...we could make the Nova Reactor make it cause a mortal wound every turn it's used, but that's kinda..."
"I LOVE IT!"
Sadly, this is not that funny....(well it is funny, just funny "uh oh" not funny "ha ha").
I mean, what if centurions were like "hey, you can fire those missiles and two las cannons each at bs3+, but you take a wound to do it!".
No, don't think so.
Sadly, this is the hand we have been dealt.
Just finished my droneport - may use it in another game this weekend - I really like how it is an open topped vehicle now for my pathfinders (or what ever I choose to put in it).
I mean, we have been wanting tau open topped vehicles for years (well, some of us have). The better shooting for the drones is just gravy.
Mandragola wrote: The nova reactor has always had a risk of hurting the riptide. In previous editions it had a 1/3 (or 1/9 in a riptide wing, which was part of the problem) chance of failing and hurting the suit. This mattered more when the suit only had 6 wounds, of course.
Now it always works, but it always hurts you - and you have a lot more wounds to start with. That seems fine. The thing that isn't fine is the points cost.
I get it, I just find it funny that GW couldn't:
A) Let the Nova Reactor work every time without a wound, since the model is much less effective now, or
B) Leave it the way it was, so I could still use the Nova when I'm at one wound without killing myself
Retrogamer0001 wrote: I find it quite funny that the GW design team working on the Tau faction, and the Riptide specifically, reworked the nova reactor in such a way that to even use it wounds the Riptide. It's almost like a sick inside joke.
"Hey Bob, since the playerbase hates the Tau so much and wants it nerfed, let's really increase the points cost, nerf it's main weapon options, and make the Markerlight table it used to use really crappy. Any other ideas on making it even worse?"
"Hmm, well...we could make the Nova Reactor make it cause a mortal wound every turn it's used, but that's kinda..."
"I LOVE IT!"
Sadly, this is not that funny....(well it is funny, just funny "uh oh" not funny "ha ha").
I mean, what if centurions were like "hey, you can fire those missiles and two las cannons each at bs3+, but you take a wound to do it!".
No, don't think so.
Sadly, this is the hand we have been dealt.
Just finished my droneport - may use it in another game this weekend - I really like how it is an open topped vehicle now for my pathfinders (or what ever I choose to put in it).
I mean, we have been wanting tau open topped vehicles for years (well, some of us have). The better shooting for the drones is just gravy.
Drone port seems pretty cool but the new rules for it made it impossible for me to use them like I did before. I used to use them as broadside platforms. I used to use a gunrig to transport a unit of FW and a firecast to shoot the railgun. Looks like only the droneport is even usable now - I was thinking it helps breachers the most.
Take it with a grain (or a whole sack) of salt, but I feel the majority of "doom & gloom" feelings towards T'au in this edition is from people used to playing them from 7th or even before. You're used to tactics that worked well back then, and don't now. Fixed gunlines or a few Riptides won't do the job no more, today the charge and combat phases are more effective than ever and you should really mind it if your opponent has one or more strong assault units. Yesterday I had a game with my Mechanicus against Imperial Fists and his Assault Terminator squad with storm shields and led by Lysander, all in a Land Raider, caused him to win to game probably almost all by themselves. Once they got in CC they were unstoppable and I had little fire power to deal with such tough units. Same story against Tyranids.
Compared to pure AdMech, T'au have reasonably cheap bubble-wrap in the form of Kroots (and they're even half-decent in CC), ways to disengage more efficiently and return stronger fire power (due to flying units and average of S5 weaponry), and most importantly MOBILITY. To me the T'au army fields a whole variety of deep-striking, Scouting or infiltrating units, that can give you an edge over your opponent and alpha-strike with great fire power while still being able to soak up the damage most of the time and move somewhere else. I believe the T'au are to be used very offensively, daring to go in close range to deliver the most of their guns and even charge when the situation allows (I know, it's a tad unfluffy but the world is vast and full of mysteries) to take advantage of the situation or prevent some unit to act normally for a turn.
You shouldn't forget that the game starts even before the deployment and so does your command re-rolls. You know in Eternal War missions, most of the time you roll a dice to know which player places the first objective. This roll is very important, as the player who wins it gets to deploy first. However the best deal is to lose the roll. When you lose you end up placing the last objective, and to choose the deployment map and your side of the table. So you can place your objectives accordingly, knowing that you can set them in your own zone with its own tactical advantages in the form of terrain. Now look at the different deployment maps and decide which one would be the most advantageous to your army and table side. I'd like to draw attention on the 4th, Hammer and Anvil. It's an interesting one by its deep yet tight (no jokes allowed) deployment zone, allowing your forces to be much farther away from the enemy's if that's your wish, depending on the matchup, and to prevent deep-strike in your deployment zone easier by the less difficult spread of your army. I played a game in such a deployment map and it was really interesting, you have that gap in the middle of the table that the enemy must cross in order to reach you and it can become a nice shooting gallery or a death trap depending on your army. Also, this is where you'll notice that 60" range and more guns are useful. Just be careful as it can quickly turn into a bloody mess if the enemy successfully invades it, yet you have the option to really fortify your position beforehand, and with the T'au Overwatch special rule getting in CC with you will get hard if you plan your army on a defensive position. Even then your mobile units will have plenty of room to work still. Really, consider using a reroll if to lose the roll-off pre-game and try this deployment map once. I'll keep on trying some of them in the future.
Feel free to correct me if you feel what I said was wrong, just giving my feel of the T'au in 8th Edition.
One big thing is even if you pick deployment type you are still rolling for it. You don't simply choose which deployment you like. Look at the side note on the deployment page.
Yeah I don't see how to use the Kauyon effectively, speaking of placement. You'd want to have your Commander close to units that shoot well but are spread close enough to benefit from hit. Really odd.
Well, if your Commander is leading a bunch of Crisis Suits, Stealth Teams, or Gun Drones, there's not a problem. Also, if there's a lot of later-game scrum in the middle, this could effect more than a few units. Optionally, you take a Missile Pod Commander who hangs back with the gun line. There are options that make it work.
My thoughts on the Tau are that we're in one of, if not the, toughest position in 40k right now (Orks excluded...maybe).
Look at the situation:
1) We have no psychic phase. Nothing. We can't even Deny the Witch anymore with warp dice at the start of the psychic phase. This will prove even more problematic when Codexes are released and most factions have new psychic powers.
2) We have no Close Combat ability with the exception of tying up enemies models for a turn. CC is really not where we want to be with most of our stuff. Can we survive it? Yes. Will we struggle to deal wounds back? Yes.
3) The vast majority of our units are now over-costed and underwhelming. Not all, but most. The viability of our larger suits in competitive games is rather low, with the Riptide and SS being the worst offenders. I truly believe that GW designed the Tau as a horde army. They sold enough Riptides and Stormsurges to pay for the moulds, now they want to sell all the rest of the stuff that sat on the shelf during 7th. We spam hordes now if we want to win most games.
4) Say what you want about the Markerlight table, I truly believe it is a disaster and needs a rewrite. Half of the abilities are near-useless in most situations, and the amount of lights needed to get anything useful is too high. In a word, I find them ineffective.
Mass Drones and infantry backed up by Commanders seems like one of the strongest builds for us, with the Y'Vahra the most effective suit possible (but of course it needs to be nerfed just as hard as all the rest of our suits, just because). I honestly really like the Tau, but what GW has done to the faction as a whole is just sad.
FirePainter wrote: One big thing is even if you pick deployment type you are still rolling for it. You don't simply choose which deployment you like. Look at the side note on the deployment page.
Hmm, nobody in my store noticed that before. Most of the time we're more like "this one looks fun" and that's it, we never played Vanguard because nobody wants to take the time to divide the table in such a way
Anyway, that's another random element that may be determined with command re-rolls. Though I agree you might not want to spend two CP before the game even started. We should learn how to use each deployment map to our advantage.
1) Psychic phases is no longer overly powerful. powerful effects but not necessarily invisibility levels of nonsense.
2) we have CC tech that doesnt involve fist punching. everyone can leave combat so no more imperial hostage taking
3) the only things that became over costed and underwhelming in terms of raw offensive output. you cant ignore the defense thats how a lot of armies tanks and MCs got.
4) a single markerlight gives you captain level bonus to everyone in your army at any range. you can also really focus down and go for even more bonuses if you need to.
the only thing im sad about is seeker missiles being hot garbage. poor skyray.
Got to agree the Skyray feels underwhelming, if only he had more missiles. Used by other units Seeker Missiles are really nice though, Mortal Wounds are still very good, on one of the only way to deal with Storm Shields Terminators and such. Railguns are nice for that Mortal Wounds role too. But yeah the Skyray is basically shoot once all the missiles at something you want dead, and then send him to go explode in CC or deliver his drones somewhere.
Honestly I would keep the price the same. They are only single shot weapons platforms and they are limited enough in the fact that only highly expensive platforms can take them to begin with. They need to be less than a drone. I could see 6 points maybe 7 for the d3 but I still wouldn't even consider it honestly. Destroyer missiles shouldn't go up in price at all since the unit isn't really that great for its price and once again single shot they need to do a lot to be worth the price.
Gamgee wrote: Honestly I would keep the price the same. They are only single shot weapons platforms and they are limited enough in the fact that only highly expensive platforms can take them to begin with. They need to be less than a drone. I could see 6 points maybe 7 for the d3 but I still wouldn't even consider it honestly. Destroyer missiles shouldn't go up in price at all since the unit isn't really that great for its price and once again single shot they need to do a lot to be worth the price.
d3 Mortal Wounds that are pretty high chance of success is actually pretty strong.
I would say that they also need that Markerlights makes them always hit on a 2+
I would say 8 points for Seeker Missiles and 15 points for Destroyer Missiles.
Seriusly, even if seekers did D3 damage, and kept the current price-I wouldn't take them.
Mostly because I can't even bother with markerlights. they are just a hassle, especially given how most benefits don't even apply a large portion of the time.
First marker is redundant if you got rerolls of 1 from one of many other sources like multi trackers, storm of fire, command link drone, sensor tower (who is in itself a markerlight!)
Second is meaningless unless you pack missiles, and as most people would agree, the missiles are not worth bothering with.
Third is useless if you pack rapid fire, in a montka aura, got a TL (any big suit would) or just stand still.
Forth does nothing unless you target has a cove bonus, but cover is less common in 8th, and can be negated by AP just as much.
And the fifth is pointless is you are a commander or longstrike-who are some of our best shooters to begin with-and while its freaking amazing for drones, you can't control who they shoot all that much, and investing THIS much into drone shots is madness...
The fact my tetras are rendered slowed by the FW index doesn't help the markerlight case.
I just can't justify taking any in the current state.
And with zero markers-missiles are out of the question.
The problem with tau isn't that we got nerfed way too hard, or that we can't make a viable list.
Its that just most of the index is useless junk, and there are only a handful of decent units, further condemned by the fact it plays nothing like how it played in the past.
Forget 7th late formation madness (retaliation cadre my beloved...), or even 6th with our power surge (and the annoying taunar), I'm talking 5th here.
Surrounding the enemy with stealth and crisis suits who are just out of reach, keeping out of sight and just making it hard to pin down and get a straight fight-having the battle lines blurred and mayham going on all over the place as shots are coming from all sides, that's just not a thing any more now that JSJ is gone.
Yea, I can drop anywhere, except I cant-because a key part of my "thing" was to drop INSIDE the enemy formations in order to get the perfect shot (fusion on tasty tank mostly), now a bubble wrap don't make it balsy to drop, it makes it outright impossible. so I drop in the outskirts of the general army.
Then I get assaulted because the enemy took casualties from behind-if the unit I shot it was even the one up front to begin with-and I can't move after shooting, plus there is a fair chance my suits are not even as fast as the enemy to begin with.
This isn't my tau.
This isn't the army i built into, invested in in it's lowest, and highest, and stuck with it's purity even when blending allies could bring me greater results (taudar traitors)
Its a playable army, if you are willing to go into spesific paths-but the enclaves battlesuit elite is just gone. I can't replicate it, I've got rules for the models, but these are not the same units any more.
Every model from 7th is playable in 8th as promised-but not every army. farsight enclaves was effectively removed from the list, as did many other tau variations.
If you played dirty, you're gone. anyone that doesn't favor a straight up sludge match is highly disappointed.
Say bye to commander spam courtesy of Reece and Frankie who are drinking the Tau hate cool aid so much they don't even realise it.
Frankie and Reece on the podcast 547 start gaking on Tau again. Reece... are you crazy? Yea spam lists are a problem, but you list the Tau commander spam list despite the fact that is easily gets swept by flyer spam lists? Man you have got to have some serious data to make those claims. Show me the numbers and data.
This is insane. It almost sounds like they want Tau nerfed more on the poadcast... holy hell. Do they actually have a vendetta against Tau or something?
Talamare wrote: d3 Mortal Wounds that are pretty high chance of success is actually pretty strong.
It wouldn't be OP even if they did it. After all, races with psykers all have access to Smite, which is very easy to successfully cast and causes d3 mortal wounds, possibly d6 on a good roll. And it is spammable by some armies (looking at you Chaos Daemons). Giving this level of firepower for Seeker Missiles would go a long way toward making Sky Rays viable. It would be Tau's version of Smite.
Gamgee wrote: Say bye to commander spam courtesy of Reece and Frankie who are drinking the Tau hate cool aid so much they don't even realise it.
Frankie and Reece on the podcast 547 start gaking on Tau again. Reece... are you crazy? Yea spam lists are a problem, but you list the Tau commander spam list despite the fact that is easily gets swept by flyer spam lists? Man you have got to have some serious data to make those claims. Show me the numbers and data.
This is insane. It almost sounds like they want Tau nerfed more on the poadcast... holy hell. Do they actually have a vendetta against Tau or something?
I believe any reasonable person would take their words as saying taking an army of nothing but commanders is silly.
Because it is.
It being viable or not doesn't mean it isn't SILLY that it's a thing.
The world is not always a conspiracy theory crashing down against Tau.
Gamgee wrote: Say bye to commander spam courtesy of Reece and Frankie who are drinking the Tau hate cool aid so much they don't even realise it.
Frankie and Reece on the podcast 547 start gaking on Tau again. Reece... are you crazy? Yea spam lists are a problem, but you list the Tau commander spam list despite the fact that is easily gets swept by flyer spam lists? Man you have got to have some serious data to make those claims. Show me the numbers and data.
This is insane. It almost sounds like they want Tau nerfed more on the poadcast... holy hell. Do they actually have a vendetta against Tau or something?
When things slip through that are too strong, then, yes, balancing should be done. This means fixing the Marine issue but it also means fixing the Commander issue.
My guess? Limit any battlesuit to two of the same weapon. Double fusion? That's fine. Quad? Too much.
I expect to see the Marines hit as well, with the Stormraven likely getting a cost increase (And hurricane bolters as well), with the assorted command buffs being reconfigured to only support Infantry, not all Marine units, so no rerolling to-hit with the Land Raider or wounds with your Hurricane spam.
Too early to know, yet, and once the too-tall things are whcked down to size, I expect them to raise a few of the too-short units to compensate. A reduction in Broadside points, for instance, would be a given, and a reduction of Dire Avengers from 17 points to 12. It's still *very* early in the 8th cycle, so we'll see what is to come.
Wasn't Frankie a Tau player? He even wrote the Tau faction stuff before the edition release.
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I agree the ML table should be fixed before GW even adresses seeker/destroyers. There are so many repeatable stuff among our army regarding ML buffs that they seem pretty underwhelming.
Na, its rather well known that they hate tau's guts and went as far to outright change rules in their tournaments last edition just to mess with tau formations (despite said formations not even being all that good)
As for the commander spam, the problem is not in the commander.
I repeat, the problem is NOT in the commander.
The tau commander is the only "leader HQ" in the game who's bubble effect is once-per-game rather than a constant buff, and its even once-per-game shared between ALL commanders, and not even one for each commander.
HOWEVER, they can shoot.
And sadly enough, nothing else in the tau arsenal can shoot, at least not in the "big boys" league.
Crisis suits are poor, ghostkneel are poor, riptide are junk, stormsurge are poor, hammerheads (other than longstrike) are poor, skyrays are junk.
Tau currently does not HAVE any big tools other than commanders. they get spammed not because they are so amazing (they are good, don't get me wrong), but because NOTHING ELSE IS WORKING.
Tau currently has commanders and light infantry.
And you can't work with just light infantry.
Sure, we got plenty of light infantry that works (drones, fire warriors, weapon pathfinders, vespids
Even some heavy infantry (stealth suits)
But nothing above that paygrade other than the commander (and longstrike) really works, and as good as these infantry units are, they can't handle enemy heavy platforms well.
Aside the sunshark, who is pretty darn good at thinning hordes. but that's not what tau infantry are lacking at.
I hope games workshop is getting this feedback. According to someone on ATT they knew a play tester and there was a big outcry against a lot of the Tau nerfs and rules we now have and much of the points being addressed by us here were hotly contest, but Reece and his group won the day.
The tighter Reece and Frankie tie the noose the more people speak out about them. i hope GW looks through our suggestions and looks at the actual data and see show brutally Tau are doing right now and logically gets them balanced like every other race.
If you do read this GW I don't want Tau over powered and even in 7th I was a Tau player calling for nerfs (but knew all too well we would be over nerfed). I like what you did with 8th and I want to see you keep improving it all the time and that means balancing.
I suspect once Tau are slaughtered at the BAOGW will finally start to consider our suggestions. We'll have to wait until thewn and that will be about 3 months anyways more than enough time to paint two dozen or so infantry/drones if you didn't somehow have any as a Tau player. I can do 12-15 troops a week and more if I cut down on quality and did tournament 3 color minimum.
If it is so well known FLG hates Tau why can't you supply the episode or any media where they say it?
It's just a conspiracy theory you two clowns have latched on to. And you're looking for anything to confirm your bias. FLG wants your money, they want you to go to their tournaments. Why would they deliberately undermine those goals?
The fact they nerfed Tau in 7th after the codex dropped before one event was ran yet SM or eldar won event after event is what many tau players see as prof of the hate. I will say if they try to limit what weapons tau can take and only tau then to me they become a cancer to the game.
Also are they not pro drone nerf?
Seriusly, even if seekers did D3 damage, and kept the current price-I wouldn't take them.
Mostly because I can't even bother with markerlights. they are just a hassle, especially given how most benefits don't even apply a large portion of the time.
First marker is redundant if you got rerolls of 1 from one of many other sources like multi trackers, storm of fire, command link drone, sensor tower (who is in itself a markerlight!)
Second is meaningless unless you pack missiles, and as most people would agree, the missiles are not worth bothering with.
Third is useless if you pack rapid fire, in a montka aura, got a TL (any big suit would) or just stand still.
Forth does nothing unless you target has a cove bonus, but cover is less common in 8th, and can be negated by AP just as much.
And the fifth is pointless is you are a commander or longstrike-who are some of our best shooters to begin with-and while its freaking amazing for drones, you can't control who they shoot all that much, and investing THIS much into drone shots is madness...
The fact my tetras are rendered slowed by the FW index doesn't help the markerlight case.
I just can't justify taking any in the current state.
And with zero markers-missiles are out of the question.
The problem with tau isn't that we got nerfed way too hard, or that we can't make a viable list.
Its that just most of the index is useless junk, and there are only a handful of decent units, further condemned by the fact it plays nothing like how it played in the past.
Forget 7th late formation madness (retaliation cadre my beloved...), or even 6th with our power surge (and the annoying taunar), I'm talking 5th here.
Surrounding the enemy with stealth and crisis suits who are just out of reach, keeping out of sight and just making it hard to pin down and get a straight fight-having the battle lines blurred and mayham going on all over the place as shots are coming from all sides, that's just not a thing any more now that JSJ is gone.
Yea, I can drop anywhere, except I cant-because a key part of my "thing" was to drop INSIDE the enemy formations in order to get the perfect shot (fusion on tasty tank mostly), now a bubble wrap don't make it balsy to drop, it makes it outright impossible. so I drop in the outskirts of the general army.
Then I get assaulted because the enemy took casualties from behind-if the unit I shot it was even the one up front to begin with-and I can't move after shooting, plus there is a fair chance my suits are not even as fast as the enemy to begin with.
This isn't my tau.
This isn't the army i built into, invested in in it's lowest, and highest, and stuck with it's purity even when blending allies could bring me greater results (taudar traitors)
Its a playable army, if you are willing to go into spesific paths-but the enclaves battlesuit elite is just gone. I can't replicate it, I've got rules for the models, but these are not the same units any more.
Every model from 7th is playable in 8th as promised-but not every army. farsight enclaves was effectively removed from the list, as did many other tau variations.
If you played dirty, you're gone. anyone that doesn't favor a straight up sludge match is highly disappointed.
Amen to that.
I just hope that somehow GW listens to the multiple feedback from Tau players. I have no interest in having a tier 1 army, I rarely play games at all and let alone tournaments. But I want a playable army.
Having a bottom tier army hurts the Tau community. The problem is that, just like me, there are a lot of players who are influenced in their purchases by the actual rules, at least to a certain degree.
Let's hope that the game designers realize how much the Tau playerbase is being hurt, if they even care about it. If their marketing guys think that Tau sold too well in the last few years and cannibalized sales from other factions, let's brace for a few years of insignificance.
If all the FLG theory is true, I just hope that Matt Ward gets the job of writing our next Codex.
And to come back to the actual discussion: I think that the problem does not lie in the Commander itself. If the other battlesuits were costed and balanced appropriately (BS 3+ for example), we wouldn't have to spam Commanders.
As for how to balance them, I'd say limit the Commander to 3 weapons + 1 support system, bring all the suits to BS3+ and merge the first two ML effects (thus having a 1-4ML table). Then balance points accordingly.
Wow this is really sad all this pessimistic posts. If you want to get your Farsight special rules you'll have to wait until the T'au codex is out like every other faction. Space Marines have no personality neither, as do Chaos, and we'll finally have chapter-like specific tactics for every faction, I think it's great. Plus they say they'll flesh out heavily units in their Codices, I wouldn't be surprised to have a new Markerlight table and Sept specific rules that allow for a true custom army. If anything the Indexes are just there to allow us to have a taste of 8th Ed in advance, so that we don't have to wait one more year to play a new edition. It's a beta-test, to see by ourselves how this edition will work rules-wise and to let us adapt to changes before any more drastic changes are added in the codices.
T'au basic infantry can wound tanks on 5+ from up to 36" away and you guys complain about that ? They're 8 pts/model. Poor weapon choices on suits ? They're amazing and you have so much choice you can configure each suit as you please. Yeah you don't have any defense against psykers, but there are some things you have to deal with, of course you don't have dedicated CC troops, that's the point of the army. AdMech can't go full assault neither, as much as Orks can try to pretend they are able to outshoot some armies. If all armies had access to all playstyles it could get quickly boring. Of course Space Marines can do that to an extent but they're the posterboys of 40K and thus HAVE to be attractive to play.
I'm sure some of you guys just have difficulty to adapt. At my FLG all the people who were vehemently against 8th Ed now play it eagerly and have accepted the changes in their armies and playstyle. I get it it hurts that the army you collected for so many years is drastically changed but unless your army was full of Riptides you'll get along with it and find a way to love your army again.
I may sound naive and optimistic with this post but I believe it's true and T'au are not that bad in 8th, even if they do need some rework. Tournaments have always been spank-fests with who has the most <Spammable unit of the moment> and the game in my opinion is NOT designed for that, however they want to tell you it's true. GW would have to write their rules according with the WAAC nature of its playerbase and us "casual" players, who form the biggest part of the hobby, would suffer from it.
Aaranis wrote: Wow this is really sad all this pessimistic posts. If you want to get your Farsight special rules you'll have to wait until the T'au codex is out like every other faction. Space Marines have no personality neither, as do Chaos, and we'll finally have chapter-like specific tactics for every faction, I think it's great. Plus they say they'll flesh out heavily units in their Codices, I wouldn't be surprised to have a new Markerlight table and Sept specific rules that allow for a true custom army. If anything the Indexes are just there to allow us to have a taste of 8th Ed in advance, so that we don't have to wait one more year to play a new edition. It's a beta-test, to see by ourselves how this edition will work rules-wise and to let us adapt to changes before any more drastic changes are added in the codices.
T'au basic infantry can wound tanks on 5+ from up to 36" away and you guys complain about that ? They're 8 pts/model. Poor weapon choices on suits ? They're amazing and you have so much choice you can configure each suit as you please. Yeah you don't have any defense against psykers, but there are some things you have to deal with, of course you don't have dedicated CC troops, that's the point of the army. AdMech can't go full assault neither, as much as Orks can try to pretend they are able to outshoot some armies. If all armies had access to all playstyles it could get quickly boring. Of course Space Marines can do that to an extent but they're the posterboys of 40K and thus HAVE to be attractive to play.
I'm sure some of you guys just have difficulty to adapt. At my FLG all the people who were vehemently against 8th Ed now play it eagerly and have accepted the changes in their armies and playstyle. I get it it hurts that the army you collected for so many years is drastically changed but unless your army was full of Riptides you'll get along with it and find a way to love your army again.
I may sound naive and optimistic with this post but I believe it's true and T'au are not that bad in 8th, even if they do need some rework. Tournaments have always been spank-fests with who has the most <Spammable unit of the moment> and the game in my opinion is NOT designed for that, however they want to tell you it's true. GW would have to write their rules according with the WAAC nature of its playerbase and us "casual" players, who form the biggest part of the hobby, would suffer from it.
Since it should be a beta test, various Tau communities are voicing their discomfort with the poor balancing nerfs and, more importantly, changes to the very Tau playstyle. We can only hope that GW is willing and able to listen.
Tau basic infantry may well be able to shoot at 30", but they die like flies as opposed to other horde armies (IG, Ork and Tyr) who are able to ignore morale completely. Forcing an elite shooting army into a horde shooting army, when the BS is low (4+ may be ok for infantry, not for veteran fighters in ultra technological battlesuits) and with little to no possibility to improve it, is just poor game design. It becomes obvious when you start to compare units from armies that are not only good in melee and psychic phase, but also better than Tau in the shooting phase. Try to compare a lascannon Sentinel squad or a shooty Dreadnought to a Broadside suit, a Devastator squad to a Hammerhead Gunship, or anything else with a Riptide. The balancing is just off, way off.
It is not a problem of adapting the playstyle when there are no viable units. Spamming the only decent units (Commanders and Drones) did not work in the first tournaments. If you go over to the thread on 8th ed winrates you can see how Tau are alone on the bottom tier.
I think we should keep this discussion away from a Tau Tactics thread though, since it is a (big) balancing and rule writing issue that is already being discussed in various other threads.
T'au basic infantry can wound tanks on 5+ from up to 36" away and you guys complain about that ? They're 8 pts/model.
This feels like an extension of the "lasguns will kill landraiders fallacy". The chance of a tank with a 3+ save suffering a wound to a fire warrior at full range (30" not 36" btw) is only 6%. A full 10 man squad have a 46% chance of causing an unsaved wound to said tank.
So while our FWs are possibly able to take a wound off a tank, it's rather unlikely, just slightly less unlikely than other basic infantry.
Firewarriors en masse won't kill T7 3+ tanks that easily as people are thinking. Played a game yesterday vs Taurox spam. From 5, only 2 were really on the Firewarriors' tab (in the entire course of the game due to them coming forward and I having nothing better to shoot at); the QFC killed a 3rd, Coldstar gimped a 4th and a th was full at the end of the game.
Wounding on a 5+ vs most vehicles help, but when they have good armour won't make Firewarriors really good AT options.
What Firewarriors do well is to kill infantry. One time I looked at Conscripts, they killed 5 of them (more than 15" away) and the morale test took another 4 (no Commissars around).
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And yeah guys, we know our options are lacking now. But complaining for the sake of complaining here won't help much. This thread is for getting more mileage from our current options.
Also, GW doesn't read a line from this or any other forum/reddit board; we need to voice our worries in Warhammer 40,000 facebook page or GW's proper e-mail. Only then we can expect changes in our rules.
Of course, this doesn't mean we shouldn't voice our concerns, but let's try to give another option to cover the bad things with stuff we have!
There may have been adrenal glands or other upgraded but the didn't have much impact
My list
Spoiler:
2 quad fusion commanders
Coldstar w/ ats and SG
2x 8 breachers in fish
5 man strike team
2x 4 stealthsuits w/ vt
4 man crisis team w/ 11 ion blasters and a DC 6 gun drones and 2 markers
Y'varha w/ ats and tl
Mission was big guns. He called it at turn 4 when all he had left was a wounded tyrant, wounded trygon and about 22 stealers left.I had only lost 1 stealthsuit, my drones and a few breachers.
I played what to me was an aggressive farsight list. No it wasn't pure suits but I didn't stay on my side on the board at all. I charged units so that his pile ins would block other units and then just flew away. Devilfish tanked several big charges before letting the breachers out to let loose and the highlight was the y'varha flamer killing swarmlord on overwatch after both fusion commanders wiffed.
Seems like most Tau losses are due to not adapting to the new edition mechanics and discovering the usefulness of units like Vespid and Hounds (who are INSANE).
I don't play Tau, but I have heard the complaints and am really curious about the nature of the problem.
Is the main issue that a) GW released bad rules, b) people would need to radically restructure their lists for them to be playable, or c) something else entirely?
techsoldaten wrote: I don't play Tau, but I have heard the complaints and am really curious about the nature of the problem.
Is the main issue that a) GW released bad rules, b) people would need to radically restructure their lists for them to be playable, or c) something else entirely?
I think its a bit of all three. The internal balance in the tau list is gak. Commanders are so much better than everything else its ridiculous.
The lists from 7th aren't as good in 8th. I'm not talking about riptide spam, I think most tau players in this thread have enough collection to have tried lots of units. Maybe not vespids since this is the first time they've been good. But it's the fact that our "best" list is spamming commanders which is unfun, unfluffy, and silly. Our units are so expensive for the fire they bring we can't have weight of fire or accuracy of fire(since markers are not impactful anymore).
And I think there is still some adjustment to the new edition but that I believe is minor. Our core mechanics of jsj and marker lights are gone gutted and useless
techsoldaten wrote: I don't play Tau, but I have heard the complaints and am really curious about the nature of the problem.
Is the main issue that a) GW released bad rules, b) people would need to radically restructure their lists for them to be playable, or c) something else entirely?
The biggest issue in my opinion is that there a only a few viable units so lists that work end up looking and playing about the same, basicly every list that wins and gets posted is some combination of the following:
Commanders
FW Stealth Suits
Vespid or Breachers in Devilfish
Longstrike + Hammerheads
Y'Vahra
Drones
The biggest issue in my opinion is that there a only a few viable units
That's my primary complaint, as well. Shifting unit priorities, functions, and play styles were expected, in my opinion, but I admittedly miss the duck-and-weave style JSJ allowed for. I just really want to have multiple useful units and a diverse palette of units to work with in a moderately competitive framework. We have a bit of a 7th Tyranid-esque book at the moment with a couple units that are clearly much better than other and quite strong overall but a whole bunch of essentially useless selections. I'm really hoping that changes.
Regarding the missile discussion, I like the changes to d3 and d6 mortal wounds for the same or maybe slightly increased price. The missiles are reasonably difficult to actually use and aren't going to hit all that reliably. Having them be powerful isn't unreasonable.
Even our "good" units aren't all that great. I am boggled at how they let this thing through testing. Did they think the Tau codex itself was so powerful it was like giving players a nuke or something?
KurtAngle2 wrote: Seems like most Tau losses are due to not adapting to the new edition mechanics and discovering the usefulness of units like Vespid Hounds (who are INSANE).
Stop playing with 7TH Mentality and units
Its not all about adapting. Tau long range shooting is that poor now that it looks to me like 300pts of Tyranids can outshoot any 300pts of Tau Elites or heavy units. Outside of HQ Tau have fallen below Tyranids in shooting.
I played them in 5th competitively - and even this bad index is better than back then.
Secondly, yes, there ARE some issues.
our commander prevalence is exactly the same issue as the flyrants of tyranids of last edition.
* It is not that the commanders/flyrants were OP, its that everything else in comparison was not good.
Note - I did not say "not as good" - I said not good.
There is a subtle difference there.
At its core, the two biggest issues are;
* Playstyle - the radical changes to markers and the loss of JSJ * Bad internal balance.
For all those complaining - play against a good tau player - it will be very enlightening.
(I am very fortunate that there are several other tau players in my area - and while all of us agree the tau got over nerfed - none of us believe in all of this doom and gloom.)
The problem for many of us is that suddenly our armies are bad. We have collections including units - particularly riptides and broadsides, which are now not much use. Like it or not people bought stuff in 7th edition that was good in 7th edition, and now it is not good.
I've been playing Tau since they came out in 3rd edition, during rhino rush. In 4th made an army that got me onto the podium at national tournaments against Ulthwe seer council/black guardian lists and Iron warriors. And so on and so on. I'm used to editions changing stuff and I'm very used to pulling the gems in an army list out of the muck.
Right now I'm cross because, if I want to play Tau effectively, it will be like making a whole new army - again. I need a bunch of the new commanders, some vespids (possibly the worst models in GW's entire range, and expensive to boot), and I need to leave the majority of my collection on the shelf.
It's a lot of work, and money. Why should I bother? I might as well start a new army of basically anything else. If I ran my imperial stuff at least some of my existing models would be useful.
I'm not going to give up on my Tau. What I'll do is wait for the codex and see if some of the issues are fixed. I actually think that's probably the best thing just about everyone can do right now. With 10 codexes scheduled to come out between now and Christmas it doesn't make sense to invest heavily in plastic kits that may only be the new hotness for a few months - only to see the balance swing yet again.
It's not that I couldn't make a good army from the index Tau list. I could. I just can't be bothered to do it all over again. Stop the pendulum swinging, I want to get off.
At its core, the two biggest issues are;
* Playstyle - the radical changes to markers and the loss of JSJ * Bad internal balance.
For all those complaining - play against a good tau player - it will be very enlightening.
(I am very fortunate that there are several other tau players in my area - and while all of us agree the tau got over nerfed - none of us believe in all of this doom and gloom.)
I would have said the biggest issue at the core is something is seriously wrong when close combat army’s outshoot us both at short range and long range.
I'm not really surprised that the pendulum swung. As discussed above, anyone who pays attention to the FLG guys and the ITC in general knows that they have a heavy bias against Tau. I am, however, surprised how hard that pendulum swung. Here's hoping the codex fixes some of the more egregious nerfings.
I saw a fairly interesting tactic last night at a 40k league: drone charges. It seemed fairly effective, considering the points invested. Granted, it was against 2 meganobs, but the 1-2 punch of massive burst cannoning with some extra attacks on top was quite effective, and the drones were able to kite pretty well. I guess I'm still getting used to the whole going first on the charge thing.
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For all those complaining - play against a good tau player - it will be very enlightening.
(I am very fortunate that there are several other tau players in my area - and while all of us agree the tau got over nerfed - none of us believe in all of this doom and gloom.)
I don't know about the others in this thread, but I don't feel like everything is awful. I've been running troop-heavy lists with some success for quite awhile (i.e., during 7th), so I'm fine with the shift in favor of that style. I like to consider myself an above-average player, overall, though I certainly need a hell of a lot more experience with the current edition, obviously.
What I don't like is the extreme dumbing down of our elite shooting units. It's kind of weird being primarily a horde army now since that has never, ever been the case. I'm not saying we need to go back to the big suit madness of a couple months ago, but it's be nice to stud my army with suits of various sizes without feeling like I was unnecessarily handicapping myself.
I have yet to play a game in 8th, newborns tend to reduce your playtime. But i am looking forward to trying outlandish tactics with coldstar and devilfish, as well as no longer hearing the constant "tau try-hard" moaning for bringing a riptide. Now a riptide is playing down.
I am frustrated several of the "most improved" units are still expensive metal models. Would love to get my hands on kroot hounds and vespid, but at $25 for 4 hounds, or $45 for 5 vespid... we are talking an untenable sum to bring a meaningful amount at even 1000 points. Here is hoping this means plastic is on the way.
or 
I think there's a case for sticking two pathfinder squads in a wall with attached round thingy, as you can then put both of them down as one drop. I'd just add more pathfinders instead of the shenanigans to get a fireblade and drones with 2+ to hit. The drones are too vulnerable so you're better off just adding dudes to the squads. They can then either light stuff up or shoot it with their carbines. Basically 4 marker drones and a fireblade cost 85 points to get about the same number of markerlight hits that 40 points worth of pathfinders would give you - from safely inside their tidewall thingy.
Yeah, we are paying 70 points for those guns and then having 
