"Wound Tanks on a 5+"
Since T8 Tanks are fairly rare... so do Standard Bolters.
techsoldaten wrote: I don't play Tau, but I have heard the complaints and am really curious about the nature of the problem.
Is the main issue that a) GW released bad rules, b) people would need to radically restructure their lists for them to be playable, or c) something else entirely?
Most of the rules are fine, only Markerlights and Seeker Missiles stand out as being garbage.
Oh, and the interaction between Saviour Protocol and Shield Drones.
Also, Tau has like 4 Different ways to give the Army Reroll Hits of 1s. Would be nice to see less overlap.
... Stimulant Injector should really be on a 5+.
and the Hammerhead Ion Cannon is a complete joke.
There is also a MASSIVE list of things that are overpriced.
As well as Gun Drones are probably underpriced, I'm more than willing to see them get a nerf.
I would also like to see Commanders get a permanent Aura Buff and a slight cost increase.
They are meant to be Commanders, not "Don't worry army, I got this!"
As far as B is concerned.
TFG who only bought the army to spam Riptides need to radically restructure their list, but more than likely since Riptides have been nerfed beyond oblivion...
They will probably just sell their Riptides and move onto Tzeentch Daemons or SM Storm lists.
Basically every other Tau player who has been playing Tau for years don't have much options to adapt.
You can either take the viable (read "on par with strength with standard stuff from other armies") stuff, or you can take something that is significantly weaker than basic options for other armies.
... Then wonder on the table why ... My Army can't Psychic, Shoots worse than you, and Can't Melee.
ZergSmasher wrote: I just wish that we could take all the "Tau are weak now, WAAAAAH!" crap into another thread and get back to tactics discussion in this one.
We aren't best equipped, but I think we are well set to PTFO, except kill points. We can bring abundant reasonably strong troop, fast speed bump units, and a few heavy hitting quality firepower.
2-3 commanders equipped to bring the pain to critical enemy units, in manta strike,
6-12 troop choices, 2-3 larger ones to hold the back field, the rest smaller units in devil fish to sprint up to midfield and hold objectives.
Piranhas are still excellent at flanking units of all types, and can force non-fly units to waste turns of fire-power by charging predators/devastators/ anything, and can disembark the drones the turn before for more harassment. And the piranha is tough enough to take more than negligible effort.
Vespid are excellent non-tank reaction force with their speed
Kroot hounds are excellent speed bumbs for making other units either waste turns swinging, or fallback. Again if they have fly its negated in useful degree, but not that many points wasted, and then they can still just sprint to back field and soak up fire.
While most expensive 2 MP 1 TL crisis suits are mobile heavy hitting firepower, so you should only bring 1 or 2 units, sorta like our fluff (Sorry FSE, you are still waiting in GW's manta)
Stealth suits are essential for the homing beacon to get your commanders where you need them AND absorbing the shots for commanders by being closer
Tanks as appropriate.
You can get to and hold or tie up so many units and are in a position to shoot them if they fall back or kill you units that short of min-maxed tournament lists yet to be finished. kill points we will lose pretty much every exchange, but objective games, i think PTFO, and we are in a strong flexible place.
**Note, this is entirely game theory, as posted just a bit ago, no games yet. but seems a reasonable CAD strategy should work ok
The main issues I see for tau is a true horde army, like 120+ works or gants. I just don't know if we could kill enough in 5 turns to be able to fight for objs. Big flyer or Mister lists er can deal with via fusion or hammerheads. Elite infantry are dealt with by breachers or Plasms or just weight of fire.
Stealthsuits are one of the most improved units too. The -1 to hit at all times is amazing along with the toughness and extra wound from 7th. I've been running 8+ stealths so far and they never let me down
I'm gonna run a unit of 10 FW with carbines instead of rifles, and give them a pulse accelerator drone (from the pathfinder teams) to see how that would work as a mobile force. Always being able to advance if needed and a range of 24" with two shots each could be interesting.
FirePainter wrote: The main issues I see for tau is a true horde army, like 120+ works or gants. I just don't know if we could kill enough in 5 turns to be able to fight for objs. Big flyer or Mister lists er can deal with via fusion or hammerheads. Elite infantry are dealt with by breachers or Plasms or just weight of fire.
Stealthsuits are one of the most improved units too. The -1 to hit at all times is amazing along with the toughness and extra wound from 7th. I've been running 8+ stealths so far and they never let me down
A true horde army dies to decent amount of normal shooting. and tau infantry shooting should be more than enough to deal with them. its going to come down to leaving the shiny toys at home and bringing out the basic bread and butter list. Kroot, Fire warriors, Gun drones. keep them positioned properly to not get first turn assaulted. and break them down one unit at a time.
or basically you cant make an army of only mono taskers and expect to take out everything. i feel like suits are basicly perfect to be combat swiss army knifes but people focus them soo hard that half the army becomes useless the second some one brings out a skew list.
FirePainter wrote: The main issues I see for tau is a true horde army, like 120+ works or gants. I just don't know if we could kill enough in 5 turns to be able to fight for objs. Big flyer or Mister lists er can deal with via fusion or hammerheads. Elite infantry are dealt with by breachers or Plasms or just weight of fire.
Stealthsuits are one of the most improved units too. The -1 to hit at all times is amazing along with the toughness and extra wound from 7th. I've been running 8+ stealths so far and they never let me down
A true horde army dies to decent amount of normal shooting. and tau infantry shooting should be more than enough to deal with them. its going to come down to leaving the shiny toys at home and bringing out the basic bread and butter list. Kroot, Fire warriors, Gun drones. keep them positioned properly to not get first turn assaulted. and break them down one unit at a time.
or basically you cant make an army of only mono taskers and expect to take out everything. i feel like suits are basicly perfect to be combat swiss army knifes but people focus them soo hard that half the army becomes useless the second some one brings out a skew list.
FirePainter wrote: The main issues I see for tau is a true horde army, like 120+ works or gants. I just don't know if we could kill enough in 5 turns to be able to fight for objs. Big flyer or Mister lists er can deal with via fusion or hammerheads. Elite infantry are dealt with by breachers or Plasms or just weight of fire.
Stealthsuits are one of the most improved units too. The -1 to hit at all times is amazing along with the toughness and extra wound from 7th. I've been running 8+ stealths so far and they never let me down
A true horde army dies to decent amount of normal shooting. and tau infantry shooting should be more than enough to deal with them. its going to come down to leaving the shiny toys at home and bringing out the basic bread and butter list. Kroot, Fire warriors, Gun drones. keep them positioned properly to not get first turn assaulted. and break them down one unit at a time.
or basically you cant make an army of only mono taskers and expect to take out everything. i feel like suits are basicly perfect to be combat swiss army knifes but people focus them soo hard that half the army becomes useless the second some one brings out a skew list.
that and they are a bit too expensive.
Don't horde armys like gaunts outshoot us?
Do they? whats the range? what is their saves? who is going first and how do you plan on deploying to avoid getting shot off the board first turn.
Talamare wrote: I don't think anything in the game outshoots Gun Drones.
Fire Warriors are a different question.
Dont have book in hand but can gun drones get buffed from characters?
but speaking of characters (kinda) the main draw back for drones is for them to be relatively good you have to get leashed onto units that have drone controllers which often are on cheaper "units" that can be targeted rather than on characters.
Really the way drones work rely on bad opponents. Yes the suit can put out damage and you know that the stones win just take the wounds. So target the drones first and then deal with the suits.
That being said a DC with manta strike crisis suits is great. Also stealthsuits with DC works well with advancing drones
Talamare wrote: I don't think anything in the game outshoots Gun Drones.
Fire Warriors are a different question.
Dont have book in hand but can gun drones get buffed from characters?
but speaking of characters (kinda) the main draw back for drones is for them to be relatively good you have to get leashed onto units that have drone controllers which often are on cheaper "units" that can be targeted rather than on characters.
(Kind of a weakness)
Drones are affected by the Cadre Fire Blade's "Volley Fire". They are affected by a commanders "Master of War" as well as Shadowsun's Command Link Drone's "Command Link" and Farsight's "Way of the Short Blade". They are affected by the Ethereal's "Failure is not an option" but not "Invocation of the Elements" as they lack either the Infantry or Battle suit Keyword. They are not affected by a pulse acceleration drone's "Pulse Accelerator" as they lack the Infantry Keyword. They are not affected by Darkstrider's "Structural Analyzer" or "Fighting Retreat" as they lack the Infantry Keyword.
I'm a bug Gun Drone fan, but I appreciate Strikers for their range. Massed 30" S5 firepower is nothing to sneeze at, and they obviously can perform very well at short range, too.
The more I mull the index, the more I'm thinking of taking Ghostkeels for a spin. they're the closest thing we have to a reasonably-costed big suit, and I can see the -2 to hit being a huge problem for most armies, assuming you can keep the Stealth Drones alive. They're kind of flimsy and underpowered for the points, but if you can keep a swarm of drones around them, you could potentially create a significant flanking force for ~500pts. A couple CIRs with ATS support will do some heavy damage if left alone for too long, and the drones will clear the chaff away with relative ease.
ZergSmasher wrote: I just wish that we could take all the "Tau are weak now, WAAAAAH!" crap into another thread and get back to tactics discussion in this one.
I must confess that I'm starting to think like that too. Okay, we got problems and we know most of them. Until they fix it, let's try to have some fun! GW doesn't read here anyway.
However, it gets a bit unnerving when people say Tau is okay and its players should stop whining. It's not okay at all. The indexes (both Gw and FW) DO have a lot of problems that need addressing, but reapeating them here ad nauseum won't fix anything, as telling us there are no problems won't make them magically good.
In the end, I think it's easier just to scroll down such posts until you find people really trying to play and asking for tips.
I think a big problem is suits as a rule went up in points a ton and that's why people who like suits are unhappy (I think the ITC tau player may be a fan of FW spam)
The other problems are marker lights are now minor buffs not core part of the army and the shield drone nerf
Oldmike wrote: I think a big problem is suits as a rule went up in points a ton and that's why people who like suits are unhappy (I think the ITC tau player may be a fan of FW spam)
The other problems are marker lights are now minor buffs not core part of the army and the shield drone nerf
A single markerlight makes overcharged weapons a 1/36 chance of harming the firer now, that's easy and substantial. you could make a whole list around overcharging stuff, and marker drones every time its available as an option. and broadsides are functionally relentless if you can mange 3 on a target (or just a TL). and while RR make use of it less than HYMP and HYMP isn't what it used to be for the price. If you bring a ATS on a broad side, and get 3 markerlights, you are now 8 s7 d3 damage ap -2 shots, with 8 more s5 ap-1 shots, re rolling 1s, for 58% hits, hardly terrible.
Oldmike wrote: I think a big problem is suits as a rule went up in points a ton and that's why people who like suits are unhappy (I think the ITC tau player may be a fan of FW spam)
The other problems are marker lights are now minor buffs not core part of the army and the shield drone nerf
A single markerlight makes overcharged weapons a 1/36 chance of harming the firer now, that's easy and substantial. you could make a whole list around overcharging stuff, and marker drones every time its available as an option. and broadsides are functionally relentless if you can mange 3 on a target (or just a TL). and while RR make use of it less than HYMP and HYMP isn't what it used to be for the price. If you bring a ATS on a broad side, and get 3 markerlights, you are now 8 s7 d3 damage ap -2 shots, with 8 more s5 ap-1 shots, re rolling 1s, for 58% hits, hardly terrible.
The number of shots and accuracy or whatever... is fine
The cost is what makes it terrible... I really don't want to have to post the math hammer AGAIN
I think I've already posted it like 6 times in this thread.
To get 3ml hits needs about 6 ml hits on avg. It will cost 48 points. A target lock only costs 6 and does the same thing. The ml will then promptly be shot off the table. Even for a big suit it's only 12 for target lock.
Yeah 180-200+ points for a single broadside plus the points for those marker lights means you could probably take 2 commanders and get equal or better firepower with more versatility.
Oldmike wrote: I think a big problem is suits as a rule went up in points a ton and that's why people who like suits are unhappy (I think the ITC tau player may be a fan of FW spam)
The other problems are marker lights are now minor buffs not core part of the army and the shield drone nerf
A single markerlight makes overcharged weapons a 1/36 chance of harming the firer now, that's easy and substantial. you could make a whole list around overcharging stuff, and marker drones every time its available as an option. and broadsides are functionally relentless if you can mange 3 on a target (or just a TL). and while RR make use of it less than HYMP and HYMP isn't what it used to be for the price. If you bring a ATS on a broad side, and get 3 markerlights, you are now 8 s7 d3 damage ap -2 shots, with 8 more s5 ap-1 shots, re rolling 1s, for 58% hits, hardly terrible.
The number of shots and accuracy or whatever... is fine
The cost is what makes it terrible... I really don't want to have to post the math hammer AGAIN
I think I've already posted it like 6 times in this thread.
So don't post it again, that's fine. The cost is high, yup. But unless you want to bring pathfinders with ion rifles, or crisis suits with MP/CIB getting a good number of anything above s5 is costly short of the commander spam. But quite clearly s7+ is essential in cracking bigger MCs, and fusoin-commanders cracking t8 MCs. Railguns just don't have the shots to do enough damage. Mortal wounds are fun, but 4d3 average 14 wounds versus 1-6 wounds +0-3 unsavable wounds.. the math for what we need is still there, and ML can improve its potency.
Yes it's ineffecient. But unless you plan on downing everything with fusion commanders and s5 guns, make what you have work, and it works better re-rolling 1s, or allowing movement and shooting as normal. sucks you have to move before you know if you can do so w/o penalty
Oldmike wrote: I think a big problem is suits as a rule went up in points a ton and that's why people who like suits are unhappy (I think the ITC tau player may be a fan of FW spam)
The other problems are marker lights are now minor buffs not core part of the army and the shield drone nerf
A single markerlight makes overcharged weapons a 1/36 chance of harming the firer now, that's easy and substantial. you could make a whole list around overcharging stuff, and marker drones every time its available as an option. and broadsides are functionally relentless if you can mange 3 on a target (or just a TL). and while RR make use of it less than HYMP and HYMP isn't what it used to be for the price. If you bring a ATS on a broad side, and get 3 markerlights, you are now 8 s7 d3 damage ap -2 shots, with 8 more s5 ap-1 shots, re rolling 1s, for 58% hits, hardly terrible.
The number of shots and accuracy or whatever... is fine
The cost is what makes it terrible... I really don't want to have to post the math hammer AGAIN
I think I've already posted it like 6 times in this thread.
So don't post it again, that's fine. The cost is high, yup. But unless you want to bring pathfinders with ion rifles, or crisis suits with MP/CIB getting a good number of anything above s5 is costly short of the commander spam. But quite clearly s7+ is essential in cracking bigger MCs, and fusoin-commanders cracking t8 MCs. Railguns just don't have the shots to do enough damage. Mortal wounds are fun, but 4d3 average 14 wounds versus 1-6 wounds +0-3 unsavable wounds.. the math for what we need is still there, and ML can improve its potency.
Yes it's ineffecient. But unless you plan on downing everything with fusion commanders and s5 guns, make what you have work, and it works better re-rolling 1s, or allowing movement and shooting as normal. sucks you have to move before you know if you can do so w/o penalty
MP Crisis Suits are better than HYMP Railsides with a DC and Missile Drones are better than HYMP
Also, both Pathfinder Special Weapons are really good. Don't feel shy about using them.
FirePainter wrote: The main issues I see for tau is a true horde army, like 120+ works or gants. I just don't know if we could kill enough in 5 turns to be able to fight for objs. Big flyer or Mister lists er can deal with via fusion or hammerheads. Elite infantry are dealt with by breachers or Plasms or just weight of fire.
Stealthsuits are one of the most improved units too. The -1 to hit at all times is amazing along with the toughness and extra wound from 7th. I've been running 8+ stealths so far and they never let me down
A true horde army dies to decent amount of normal shooting. and tau infantry shooting should be more than enough to deal with them. its going to come down to leaving the shiny toys at home and bringing out the basic bread and butter list. Kroot, Fire warriors, Gun drones. keep them positioned properly to not get first turn assaulted. and break them down one unit at a time.
or basically you cant make an army of only mono taskers and expect to take out everything. i feel like suits are basicly perfect to be combat swiss army knifes but people focus them soo hard that half the army becomes useless the second some one brings out a skew list.
that and they are a bit too expensive.
Don't horde armys like gaunts outshoot us?
Do they? whats the range? what is their saves? who is going first and how do you plan on deploying to avoid getting shot off the board first turn.
18” range, 3 shots per model and reroll 1’s when in a large squad. They can be made to deepstrike so go first shooting 90shots at BS 4. They can wipe out a Firewarror squad before it even gets chance to fire back. If that wasn’t bad enough for less then 300pts of Hive guard the nids can outshoot at range any 300pts of Tau Elite or hvy units. Combine the gaunts with hive guard and the nids can put enough more then enough firepower to rival if not outshoot Tau.
At 18" Range you can make a null zone that prevents the enemy from shooting the fire warriors (using cheap kroot spaced out with 9" space between the fire warriors and kroot) . or just chuck them into fish and force the enemy to target prioritize with their anti tank
if they deep strike trying to kill the fish then meh. good chance that it wont die to it, then you pop out end them with rapid fire or charge them with a fish to keep them locked for the turn.
at least thats what i can see.
What kinda guns and range do hive guard have? any good transport options or do they walk.
I just put together a Brigade list in Battlescribe so I thought I'd post it here and see what everyone says.
Brigade Detachment:
HQ:
Darkstrider
Cadre Fireblade
Commander: 3x Missile Pod, ATS, 2x Gun Drone
Troops:
10 Breachers: Guardian Drone
10 Breachers: Guardian Drone
10 Kroot Carnivores
10 Strikers: DS8 Turret w/Missile Pod
6 Strikers: DS8 Turret w/Missile Pod
6 Strikers: DS8 Turret w/Missile Pod
Elites:
Firesight Marksman
XV25 Stealth Team: 3 suits, 1x Fusion Blaster
XV8 Crisis Team: 3 suits, each has 2x Plasma Rifle and Multi-tracker, 1x Gun Drone
Fast Attack:
10 Pathfinders: 3x Rail Rifle, Pulse Accelerator Drone
Tactical Drones: 4 Gun Drones
5 Vespid Stingwings
Heavy Support:
3 Sniper Drones
1 Broadside with HRR, 2x SMS and Target Lock
1 Broadside with HRR, 2x SMS and Target Lock
Dedicated Transport:
Devilfish
Devilfish
2000 points on the nose
I'd probably start the Commander, Crisis suits and Vespids in reserves. Commander would drop in on turn 1 to do stuff, while the others would wait until the opponent moved some stuff up or lost stuff to my shooting to drop in and perhaps gank a character or two behind the lines. Even if they can't it'll force the opponent to play honest and watch their backfield instead of just putting the characters at the back. The Railsides could move around and shoot with impunity since Target Lock removes the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons. The Breachers would ride in the Devilfish and probably provide the most mobile element of the army, grabbing objectives or the Relic. The other infantry will cluster around the Fireblade and use his ability to put out a large amount of shots, at longer range thanks to the Pathfinders' Pulse Accelerator Drone. The Firesight Marksman and Sniper drones are a tax to get the Brigade detachment. 78 points is worth it to get a total of 12 CP. My biggest concern with this list is the relative lack of heavy firepower. I'm not sure I'll be ready for a mechanized Guard list or something. Thoughts?
ZergSmasher wrote: My biggest concern with this list is the relative lack of heavy firepower. I'm not sure I'll be ready for a mechanized Guard list or something. Thoughts?
Therein is the difficult part of new tau. Heavy firepower is either an additional HQ detachment for more spam-manders, or cost inefficient options. As i think it makes a more enjoyable game for both parties, I encourage you to pursue non-commander options. But lack of las cannon on any vehicle spam does make us comparatively weak versus mech guard
Gamgee wrote: Sniper drones are so terrible they have problems killing even human HQ's let alone anything bigger. Total waste of points.
Well if they are firing on their own yes. But the buff from a drone controller and the marksmen make them hit on a 3+, the marksmen can still try to marker light the target thus re-rolling 1's, in reality the hit to wounding is pretty good. The problem is the standard vs. mortal wound's. I personally like the snipers and will continue to use them now that they are not bogged down by their marksmen.
Gamgee wrote: Sniper drones are so terrible they have problems killing even human HQ's let alone anything bigger. Total waste of points.
Well if they are firing on their own yes. But the buff from a drone controller and the marksmen make them hit on a 3+, the marksmen can still try to marker light the target thus re-rolling 1's, in reality the hit to wounding is pretty good. The problem is the standard vs. mortal wound's. I personally like the snipers and will continue to use them now that they are not bogged down by their marksmen.
The problem with Sniper Drones isn't their shooting ability (even if I still cannot fathom why that of all things got nerfed), the problem is the weapon they're using. 48" S5 AP0 D1 rapid fire 1 just is not a good sniper weapon. No AP on basic shots, no chance of doing something special on to wound rolls of 6 (mortal wounds or AP -4 or what have you), they basically just took a regular pulse rifle, added 18" to it, threw it on a drone and said "here's your sniper!". I wouldn't care if Sniper Drones were BS 2+ rerollable base, I still wouldn't take them because their gun is just a slightly longer range version of our base gun. The job of snipers (to kill enemy characters) is better handled by infiltrating Stealth Teams/Ghostkeels or Manta Striking Crisis Suits or Commanders, as they have the weaponry to actual do some damage to characters and HQs. And all that is of course ignoring the fact that we have to waste 2 slots in a detachment in order to even make them borderline usable. Sniper Drones are worthless without a Firesight Marksman, meaning that you have to use up both a Heavy Support slot and an Elite slot just to make our snipers work, and as I already said, their guns are laughably pathetic, especially compared to the sniper options other armies can field.
As much as I like the idea of Sniper Drones (hell I used to run them fairly often back in 6th and early 7th), leave them at home for now, they aren't worth bringing.
Desubot wrote: At 18" Range you can make a null zone that prevents the enemy from shooting the fire warriors (using cheap kroot spaced out with 9" space between the fire warriors and kroot) . or just chuck them into fish and force the enemy to target prioritize with their anti tank
if they deep strike trying to kill the fish then meh. good chance that it wont die to it, then you pop out end them with rapid fire or charge them with a fish to keep them locked for the turn.
at least thats what i can see.
What kinda guns and range do hive guard have? any good transport options or do they walk.
They don’t need transports. 2 shots each, hit on 3+, S8, 36” so can hit over 80% of a typical board. -2AP and D3 damage and they can also shoot out of line of site so can hide behind a building along with ignore cover. So that’s 12 shots for 288pts better accuracy and better damage then Tau and unless I missed something they can out damage any of our long range Elites or heavy’s in the 300pts range.
The null zone against the gants isn’t very effective as the gunts tend to appear with a Trygon Prime monstrous creature or the other nasty options. Still not sure on the best way to counter, guard, gants and Trygon's. That's a lot of shooting power.
It’s not all doom and gloom Tau do have great Stealth, HQ and fast attack but I am finding our Elites and Hvy are getting out shot by close combat army’s.
What I find interesting about snipers is this from the Tau preview at GW. “Lastly, I want to talk about Sniper Drones. When paired with the T’au HQ’s such as the Cadre Fireblade they will bring down those pesky support characters with deadly efficiency even if they are hiding behind their infantry. The 48″ range on their Sniper weapons, plus their fast movement, means they will be filling those characters with lead (or plasma?) a lot faster than snipers from other factions.”
Yet in the codex Fireblade doesn’t work and they are useless for killing pesky support characters.
Hang on so the hive guard is a 3 wound t5 model with a 4+ save with basicly what is a missile launcher that ignores cover so at best its 12 missiles at 36" range artillery
pretty sick. but t5 3 wounds 4+ saves isnt really the best of stats at 300 points. thats a pretty significant points sink.
deep strike in a bunch of plasma, fusions or wound saturate with st5 burst cannons could probably save the day.
dunno about the points though but once you focus them out they start losing effectiveness.
Desubot wrote: Clearlly the PR Team messed up. it happens
Hang on so the hive guard is a 3 wound t5 model with a 4+ save with basicly what is a missile launcher that ignores cover so at best its 12 missiles at 36" range artillery
pretty sick. but t5 3 wounds 4+ saves isnt really the best of stats at 300 points. thats a pretty significant points sink.
deep strike in a bunch of plasma, fusions or wound saturate with st5 burst cannons could probably save the day.
dunno about the points though but once you focus them out they start losing effectiveness.
There are ways to deal with then but the point is on a pts to pts cost they are cheaper and more effective at shooting then Tau Elites or heavy's. 6 of them will put out more firepower then 3 crisis suits loaded with missile pods.
I put the Sniper drones and marksman in my list not because I believe they are good (trust me, I'm not THAT naive), but rather as a cheap way to fill force org slots to make a Brigade detachment. And that's all they're good for, really.
Desubot wrote: Clearlly the PR Team messed up. it happens
Hang on so the hive guard is a 3 wound t5 model with a 4+ save with basicly what is a missile launcher that ignores cover so at best its 12 missiles at 36" range artillery
pretty sick. but t5 3 wounds 4+ saves isnt really the best of stats at 300 points. thats a pretty significant points sink.
deep strike in a bunch of plasma, fusions or wound saturate with st5 burst cannons could probably save the day.
dunno about the points though but once you focus them out they start losing effectiveness.
There are ways to deal with then but the point is on a pts to pts cost they are cheaper and more effective at shooting then Tau Elites or heavy's. 6 of them will put out more firepower then 3 crisis suits loaded with missile pods.
Point to point not ever army has equivalent slots in slots. some armies have more power in other slots than others.
others have less over all shooting but better assault or better defense.
cant expect everything to be 100% equivalent that would just make for a very boring mirror game with just different skins.
ZergSmasher wrote: I put the Sniper drones and marksman in my list not because I believe they are good (trust me, I'm not THAT naive), but rather as a cheap way to fill force org slots to make a Brigade detachment. And that's all they're good for, really.
Fair enough, I'll grant you that they are a cheap way to fill out a brigade. I honestly wasn't thinking along those lines because based on my (admittedly limited) table time in 8th I haven't needed that many command points. Having only the 3 generic strategems to use them on and only being able to use one per phase, I have yet to encounter a situation where I thought to myself "Man, if only I had 12 command points right now", the 5-7 I get from running battalions, vanguards, outriders, etc. have been fine for me. That may change as I get more games in, and I'm sure it will once we get our codex and the unique Tau strategems that will come with it, but for now I'd rather spend those points filling out FW or Stealth teams or buying upgrades for various units and simply splitting my army up between multiple detachments to maximize command points. But that's just me, and I can definitely see where you're coming from.
Desubot wrote: Clearlly the PR Team messed up. it happens
Hang on so the hive guard is a 3 wound t5 model with a 4+ save with basicly what is a missile launcher that ignores cover so at best its 12 missiles at 36" range artillery
pretty sick. but t5 3 wounds 4+ saves isnt really the best of stats at 300 points. thats a pretty significant points sink.
deep strike in a bunch of plasma, fusions or wound saturate with st5 burst cannons could probably save the day.
dunno about the points though but once you focus them out they start losing effectiveness.
There are ways to deal with then but the point is on a pts to pts cost they are cheaper and more effective at shooting then Tau Elites or heavy's. 6 of them will put out more firepower then 3 crisis suits loaded with missile pods.
Point to point not ever army has equivalent slots in slots. some armies have more power in other slots than others.
others have less over all shooting but better assault or better defense.
cant expect everything to be 100% equivalent that would just make for a very boring mirror game with just different skins.
While that's true what I was trying to get across is some CC army's seem to have better shooting options then Tau. You would expect Tau Elites and heavy's to be able to outshoot a CC army.
I really enjoyed the freedom of 4 Remora Stealth Drones and a Coldstar Commander roaming the board.....(would be even better if Seeker missiles hit better)
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Uh, what are Tau good at right now again? Are they a shooty army? A CC one? Definitely not a psychic one...
One of the best general infantry weapons
defensive wound allocation shenanigans
Special weapons units that can come bristling with weapons that can deep strike and have multi wounds
Near army wide captain buff (rerolls of 1s) on a 4+
relatively cheap alternative troops.
i probably missed something.
people dont like it but a riptide while offensively wont be outputting equally pointed out heavy slot, they also survive far better.
So nothing, essentially. A whole lot of nothing compared to almost every other faction's strengths and specialities. Seriously.
Necrons - Reanimation Protocols, solid shooting, well-balanced.
Dark Eldar - Army-wide -1 modifier, high mobility, high firepower (Dark Lances)
Space Marines - need I go into this one?
Eldar - same as above, still strong, great psychic and mobility, great firepower
Tyranids - powerful in all regards, people are going crazy for Nids right now
IG - same as above
SoB - same as above
GK - stronger than expected, mostly due to Smite and multiple wounds on Termies...and Draigo. GK are better than Tau right now.
Orks - possibly the only faction worse than us, but at least they get a psychic phase and strong CC.
Daemons - some broken lists, strong psychic and CC CSM - better than in 7th, more of a jack of all trades right now
Maybe I forgot someone, but all of these armies, Orks excepted, have something they excel in beyond "best infantry gun (debatable)".
Necrons -Exceptionally limited options Dark Eldar - -1 modifier off setting overall low toughness Space Marines - no one was surprised Eldar - eldar usually are good Limited ST9 shooting but thats for every non imperium Tyranids - finally glad for them, they have been in the dumpster for so long it must be surprising IG - its less IG more like everyone is spamming scions. people still bitch about how bad lemon russes are SoB - cant say anything because i have yet to look into them GK - Not surprising ether and its funny because all the people that said terminators are still useless. Orks - have not looked into Daemons - what did they break this time? CSM - overall better than 7th roughly in line with SM which is good.
Its usually 1 or 2 really good things that are getting spammed right now
that's less a problem with the Tau codex (ok yeah some things definitely have problems (fething seeker missiles are 100% hot garbage)) but more a problem with outlines being overall good
What I find interesting about snipers is this from the Tau preview at GW. “Lastly, I want to talk about Sniper Drones. When paired with the T’au HQ’s such as the Cadre Fireblade they will bring down those pesky support characters with deadly efficiency even if they are hiding behind their infantry. The 48″ range on their Sniper weapons, plus their fast movement, means they will be filling those characters with lead (or plasma?) a lot faster than snipers from other factions.”
Yet in the codex Fireblade doesn’t work and they are useless for killing pesky support characters.
How do they actually compare to snipers from other factions?
Desubot wrote: Necrons -Exceptionally limited options
Dark Eldar - -1 modifier off setting overall low toughness
Space Marines - no one was surprised
Eldar - eldar usually are good Limited ST9 shooting but thats for every non imperium
Tyranids - finally glad for them, they have been in the dumpster for so long it must be surprising
IG - its less IG more like everyone is spamming scions. people still bitch about how bad lemon russes are
SoB - cant say anything because i have yet to look into them
GK - Not surprising ether and its funny because all the people that said terminators are still useless.
Orks - have not looked into
Daemons - what did they break this time?
CSM - overall better than 7th roughly in line with SM which is good.
Its usually 1 or 2 really good things that are getting spammed right now
that's less a problem with the Tau codex (ok yeah some things definitely have problems (fething seeker missiles are 100% hot garbage)) but more a problem with outlines being overall good
Actually GK terminators are rather bad. Paladins with their 3 wounds are so much better no one runs GK terminators even though they're troops.
EDIT: Or should I say that the internal balance is a bit shoddy.
So I saw someone bring this up on another forum (ATT), but what do we think about Heavy Gun Drones from FW? A drone with 2 BCs, so the same firepower as a regular Gun Drone, doesn't have Targeting Protocols so it doesn't have to shoot at the nearest enemy unit, still has Savior Protocols, and each one has 3 wounds a piece. Granted they are much more expensive than regular drones and can't be taken as an addition to a battlesuit or infantry unit, but they grant us much greater choice in target when shooting and, most importantly, can tank wounds much better than regular drones can. With the FAQ making Drones suffer mortal wounds for SP, having drones with multiple wounds is a god send. Suddenly that lascannon that rolled a 6 for damage is killing only 2 drones out of a unit rather than wiping out the entire squad. The only real issue is the price tag associated with them, but what do you guys think? Would a unit of these guys floating around a Commander or other battlesuit team be worthwhile, or should we just stick to regular old Gun Drones?
How a lascannon could kill 2 drones? It can kills only 1 model, no matter how much damage it does.
HGD have several problems:
- their markerlight cannot benefit the unit, while a mixed unit of marker drones and gun drone can.
- the model has been discontinued by FW - 2 gun drones do the same job of 1 HGD for much less; 3 gun drones will have the same number of W and even more shooting. their only cons are morale (albeit what kills 1 HGD will kill the 3 drones) and having to fire at the closest target
- HGD takes up a heavy support slot instead of no slot or a fast attack one
- HGD can't be bought by suits, so no manta strike
- the minimum unit is composed by 2 models, costing 80p. you can take 10 gun drones at that cost and they'll do much more.
- HGD lack stable platform, so their markerlights fire at BS6+ if they move
Gun Drones are the best cost-effective model in our entire line. HGD can't come close to them at all
18” range, 3 shots per model and reroll 1’s when in a large squad. They can be made to deepstrike so go first shooting 90shots at BS 4. They can wipe out a Firewarror squad before it even gets chance to fire back. If that wasn’t bad enough for less then 300pts of Hive guard the nids can outshoot at range any 300pts of Tau Elite or hvy units. Combine the gaunts with hive guard and the nids can put enough more then enough firepower to rival if not outshoot Tau.
A few things worth noting:
1. Termagaunts/Devilgaunts (Termagaunts with devourer) re-roll 1s To Wound when in groups of 20 or more, not To Hit. They can re-roll 1s To Hit if they're snuggling up next to a 200+ point HQ unit, the Tervigon.
2. Tyranids have two options for deep-striking Gaunts. One is the Trygon/Trygon Prime which is just as or even more expensive than a Tervigon. Tyrranocyte is the other option, but that has a maximum capacity of 20.
3. A Termagaunt with a Devourer costs exactly as much as a standard Fire Warrior, but has 6+ save on the same toughness. If, as in your scenario, I am paying close to 500 points for the privilege of having that 30-strong squad in a Trygon I had better be able to murder a Fire Warrior squad in a turn of shooting.
4. Hive Guard have lower Rate of Fire, AP. and range than a standard missile pod.
If a Tau player is getting outshot by Tyranids, it's time to take a long hard look at what exactly you brought to the table to counter massed infantry and multi-sound models.
18” range, 3 shots per model and reroll 1’s when in a large squad. They can be made to deepstrike so go first shooting 90shots at BS 4. They can wipe out a Firewarror squad before it even gets chance to fire back. If that wasn’t bad enough for less then 300pts of Hive guard the nids can outshoot at range any 300pts of Tau Elite or hvy units. Combine the gaunts with hive guard and the nids can put enough more then enough firepower to rival if not outshoot Tau.
A few things worth noting:
1. Termagaunts/Devilgaunts (Termagaunts with devourer) re-roll 1s To Wound when in groups of 20 or more, not To Hit. They can re-roll 1s To Hit if they're snuggling up next to a 200+ point HQ unit, the Tervigon.
2. Tyranids have two options for deep-striking Gaunts. One is the Trygon/Trygon Prime which is just as or even more expensive than a Tervigon. Tyrranocyte is the other option, but that has a maximum capacity of 20.
3. A Termagaunt with a Devourer costs exactly as much as a standard Fire Warrior, but has 6+ save on the same toughness. If, as in your scenario, I am paying close to 500 points for the privilege of having that 30-strong squad in a Trygon I had better be able to murder a Fire Warrior squad in a turn of shooting.
4. Hive Guard have lower Rate of Fire, AP. and range than a standard missile pod.
If a Tau player is getting outshot by Tyranids, it's time to take a long hard look at what exactly you brought to the table to counter massed infantry and multi-sound models.
Pts to pts cost they do not. Impaler cannon is 36” 2shots, S8, -2AP and D3 damage ignore cover and LOS. Isn’t that better then a missile pod? Fair point on the rest. Although I was talking about our Elites and hvys long range shooting. For 300pts what Elites or hvy do we have that can match that shooting firepower at range?
18” range, 3 shots per model and reroll 1’s when in a large squad. They can be made to deepstrike so go first shooting 90shots at BS 4. They can wipe out a Firewarror squad before it even gets chance to fire back. If that wasn’t bad enough for less then 300pts of Hive guard the nids can outshoot at range any 300pts of Tau Elite or hvy units. Combine the gaunts with hive guard and the nids can put enough more then enough firepower to rival if not outshoot Tau.
4. Hive Guard have lower Rate of Fire, AP. and range than a standard missile pod.
If a Tau player is getting outshot by Tyranids, it's time to take a long hard look at what exactly you brought to the table to counter massed infantry and multi-sound models.
Pts to pts cost they do not. Impaler cannon is 36” 2shots, S8, -2AP and D3 damage ignore cover and LOS. Isn’t that better then a missile pod? Fair point on the rest. Although I was talking about our Elites and hvys long range shooting. For 300pts what Elites or hvy do we have that can match that shooting firepower at range?
To be fair, this comparison doesn't sound so bad.
2 hive guards shoot better than a crisis, true, but they lose on a lot of mobility and durability (nids don't have drones).
Also, don't forget that hive guards require a synapse nearby (8") or they can only shoot at the nearest target, and have really low discipline.
All in all this seems balanced.
It's like the comparison with devilgants, sure they shoot 90 str4 shots at bs4+, but they cost 240 points + 210 points of delivery for a unit that the next turn is clearly gone from the table (t3 6+).
Not saying that T'au are fine, but it seems to me that people here are finding problems where there are none.
Spoletta wrote: To be fair, this comparison doesn't sound so bad.
2 hive guards shoot better than a crisis, true, but they lose on a lot of mobility and durability (nids don't have drones).
Also, don't forget that hive guards require a synapse nearby (8") or they can only shoot at the nearest target, and have really low discipline.
All in all this seems balanced.
It's like the comparison with devilgants, sure they shoot 90 str4 shots at bs4+, but they cost 240 points + 210 points of delivery for a unit that the next turn is clearly gone from the table (t3 6+).
Not saying that T'au are fine, but it seems to me that people here are finding problems where there are none.
This does seem right. The suits get to deep strike as well, so they should really get to shoot first.
I'm not sure either unit is great, but the Tyrannid one isn't better.
I do think that a lot of the comparisons people are making are questionable, because they ignore range. Missile pods have always been good because they let you hit the enemy from somewhere relatively safe. That tends to mean you'll fire more times in an average battle, because you'll live longer. It's very difficult to compare these kinds of units though. And sometimes you do just need to hit something with 8 fusion blasters to make a problem go away in a hurry.
Weapons
S - Fusion Blaster
A - Cyclic Ion Blaster
B - Flamer
C - Missile Pods, Plasma Rifle, Burst Cannon
D - Airburst Fragmentation Projector
Personally I'd move plasma rifles up to B. We may not be able to overcharge like imperium but it's a cheap way to get S6 AP -3. It still does a number on marines or other heavy infantry.
Otherwise your list is accurate for right now. Should add in the FW units at some point too.
What do people think About running multiple units
Of pathfinders? Maybe like 8 man units or so with three special weapons?
I think I like ion rifles more than rail rifles because you can over charge on marked targets and they 2-3 ions will be way cheaper than rails on them.
I've been running 2 10 man units, both with 3 Ion rifles. They are alright. I usually shoot the rifles at units that will certainly take wounds from them to force ld checks or to finish off bigger targets.
Personally I'd move plasma rifles up to B. We may not be able to overcharge like imperium but it's a cheap way to get S6 AP -3. It still does a number on marines or other heavy infantry.
Plasma is a trap weapon for us. It seems useful, but according to the numbers, it definitely is not. R'Varnas put the final nail in plasma's coffin. With an ATS, they're basically putting out a ton of plasma damage per turn at range on a really durable platform. It's a little difficult to quantify how much better R'Varnas are than plasma suits, but with average shots and maximum damage, the cost is approximately equal between Crisis Suits and R'Varnas. Given the durability differential, that looks awfully bad for the suits.
Personally I'd move plasma rifles up to B. We may not be able to overcharge like imperium but it's a cheap way to get S6 AP -3. It still does a number on marines or other heavy infantry.
Plasma is a trap weapon for us. It seems useful, but according to the numbers, it definitely is not. R'Varnas put the final nail in plasma's coffin. With an ATS, they're basically putting out a ton of plasma damage per turn at range on a really durable platform. It's a little difficult to quantify how much better R'Varnas are than plasma suits, but with average shots and maximum damage, the cost is approximately equal between Crisis Suits and R'Varnas. Given the durability differential, that looks awfully bad for the suits.
That durability differential is itself difficult to quantify because R'Varnas can be shut down, and cannot deep strike. They do of course have a higher toughness, but they have to deploy on the ground. Crisis suits with drone support are really quite tough, and can use their jet packs to get out of combat and shoot again.
That said I do tend to agree that plasma is simply a worse choice for suits than CIBs. CIBs are a far better option for killing heavy infantry, not least because they are at full power 6" further away.
You might be right. I am still assembling my r'varna so I haven't tested it out yet. The mobility of the suits might be better for objectives but then still probably better to just run ion with a couple fusion. Idk I am still going to try plasma suits for a bit and see how they go.
On another note I think I have had my highlight of 8th already. Last game my y'varha burnt a catalyst'd swarmlord down in overwatch with his flamer. Poor bug never even saw combat
That durability differential is itself difficult to quantify because R'Varnas can be shut down, and cannot deep strike. They do of course have a higher toughness, but they have to deploy on the ground. Crisis suits with drone support are really quite tough, and can use their jet packs to get out of combat and shoot again.
True, perhaps, but I'm not sold on hit-and-run tactics with Crisis Suits. They're too expensive and bad at combat to make that an effective option, in my opinion. They're not terribly likely to live against anything that wants to be in combat with them, anyway. Deep striking is nice, but with 60" range, I'm pretty confident that the R'Varna will find plenty of targets. Not having FLY sort of sucks, though.
Last game my y'varha burnt a catalyst'd swarmlord down in overwatch with his flamer. Poor bug never even saw combat
That's what he gets for charging an Y'Vahra. Those guys are for shooting down only, especially since they're going to back up and flame the piss out of you the next turn (again) if they live.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Uh, what are Tau good at right now again? Are they a shooty army? A CC one? Definitely not a psychic one...
Well according to the fluff we did just lose an entire sphere expansion in the warp. So who knows what GW has intended for that hopefully psychics.
I'd say we are a strike army we need to hit hard and kill the ing thing we point our guns at in a turn.We are not experts at either, hopefully this is fixed whenever we get a codex. Right now I see T'au troops having a split mode. Some troops need to hold home objectives and slowly advance (if at all), namely Strike teams and BroadSides, Hammer Heads, and some Commander load outs. Then we have the hard strikers which consist of Commanders, XV8 drops (for what ever there worth), Piranhas with FB, Breachers, and Vespid. Lastly are the spit modes to advance and cause issue with the opponents forces Kroot, Ghostkeel, Stealth Teams, Drones, and Y'vahra.
Right now we are afforded some comfort in Hand to Hand and being able to just leave so charging to force and enemy choice in there turn is a thing.
So I just saw the ultramarine chapter tactic gives them pseudo fly on their infantry and dreads. So the tac and dev squads can fall back and shoot at -1. Seems pretty good, gives me hope that the tau book will give us something for all our jetpack units that need something. I just want jsj back GW is that so much to ask?
Personally I'd move plasma rifles up to B. We may not be able to overcharge like imperium but it's a cheap way to get S6 AP -3. It still does a number on marines or other heavy infantry.
Plasma is a trap weapon for us. It seems useful, but according to the numbers, it definitely is not. R'Varnas put the final nail in plasma's coffin. With an ATS, they're basically putting out a ton of plasma damage per turn at range on a really durable platform. It's a little difficult to quantify how much better R'Varnas are than plasma suits, but with average shots and maximum damage, the cost is approximately equal between Crisis Suits and R'Varnas. Given the durability differential, that looks awfully bad for the suits.
I really really dislike what I perceive as a monomanaical fixation on finding good and bad units/weapons and ranking them in lists according to mathematical criteria, which makes no sense given that a great deal of things in this game cannot be mathematized at all, but I'll point out that plasma is the only weapon other than the missile pod that can shoot over 18" and hence the numbers show that it is infinitely more useful at that range than, for instance, the fusion blaster.
Personally I'd move plasma rifles up to B. We may not be able to overcharge like imperium but it's a cheap way to get S6 AP -3. It still does a number on marines or other heavy infantry.
Plasma is a trap weapon for us. It seems useful, but according to the numbers, it definitely is not. R'Varnas put the final nail in plasma's coffin. With an ATS, they're basically putting out a ton of plasma damage per turn at range on a really durable platform. It's a little difficult to quantify how much better R'Varnas are than plasma suits, but with average shots and maximum damage, the cost is approximately equal between Crisis Suits and R'Varnas. Given the durability differential, that looks awfully bad for the suits.
I really really dislike what I perceive as a monomanaical fixation on finding good and bad units/weapons and ranking them in lists according to mathematical criteria, which makes no sense given that a great deal of things in this game cannot be mathematized at all, but I'll point out that plasma is the only weapon other than the missile pod that can shoot over 18" and hence the numbers show that it is infinitely more useful at that range than, for instance, the fusion blaster.
Well sure, range is of course a big deal. It's a bit less of a big deal for crisis suits, who are fast and should probably always deep strike. At range, the R'Varna is clearly superior to crisis suits. Between 12 and 24" a crisis suit with triple plasma will do about 1 wound to most infantry, and sometimes they'll pass their save. Within 12 and 18" the CIB is way better, and this is a relatively safe place to be against stuff with a move of up to 6".
The fact is that you can sometimes calculate mathematically that some options are better than others. You can work out the amount of wounds caused on all kinds of targets, compared to the points spent on the unit doing the shooting. GW doesn't seem to have learned to do this, so for the time being there are often choices that are better than others.
FirePainter wrote: So I just saw the ultramarine chapter tactic gives them pseudo fly on their infantry and dreads. So the tac and dev squads can fall back and shoot at -1. Seems pretty good, gives me hope that the tau book will give us something for all our jetpack units that need something. I just want jsj back GW is that so much to ask?
Well, -2 for devs as they get another -1 from heavy weapons.
Personally I'd move plasma rifles up to B. We may not be able to overcharge like imperium but it's a cheap way to get S6 AP -3. It still does a number on marines or other heavy infantry.
Plasma is a trap weapon for us. It seems useful, but according to the numbers, it definitely is not. R'Varnas put the final nail in plasma's coffin. With an ATS, they're basically putting out a ton of plasma damage per turn at range on a really durable platform. It's a little difficult to quantify how much better R'Varnas are than plasma suits, but with average shots and maximum damage, the cost is approximately equal between Crisis Suits and R'Varnas. Given the durability differential, that looks awfully bad for the suits.
A single crisis suit w/ Triple Plasma in double tap range costs 90pts/Wound inflicted to a T8 or T7 3+ Sv model; 60pts/Wound inflicted to a T6 3+ Sv model; 45pts/Wound inflicted to a T5 or a T4 3+ Sv model. This is regardless if mutli or single wound wound models.
A R'Varna w/ ATS and Nova active costs 75pts/Wound inflicted to a T8 or T7 3+ Sv model; 50pts/Wound inflicted to a T6 3+ Sv model; 37.5pts/Wound inflicted to a T5 or a T4 3+ Sv model. Assuming all multi wound models. VS Single Wound Marines, this jumps to 112pts/wound inflicted.
Both options however are well outperformed by Quad Fusion Commanders, HV9 Dual Fusion Cascades, Trip Fusion Suits, Fusion/Collider Ghostkeels, and Gun Drones even when outside of the 6-9" melta range.
It is unfortunate that the R'Varna performs so poorly for its points; I have a beautifully painted one that I used in 6th and 7th edition Apoc games as it was great for removing HP off of clumped up vehicles. Not anymore. Like my riptides, it will be staying on the shelf.
FirePainter wrote: So I just saw the ultramarine chapter tactic gives them pseudo fly on their infantry and dreads. So the tac and dev squads can fall back and shoot at -1. Seems pretty good, gives me hope that the tau book will give us something for all our jetpack units that need something. I just want jsj back GW is that so much to ask?
Well, -2 for devs as they get another -1 from heavy weapons.
You mean the same as Tau shooting? I love how they're saying it's not that good, when a lot of people are complaining about all the Fly on Tau, none of which gets better than a 4+. Ultramarine's get fly but drop down to Tau effectiveness, and it's being considered bad.
Weapons
S - Fusion Blaster
A - Cyclic Ion Blaster
B - Flamer
C - Missile Pods, Plasma Rifle, Burst Cannon
D - Airburst Fragmentation Projector
Personally I'd move plasma rifles up to B. We may not be able to overcharge like imperium but it's a cheap way to get S6 AP -3. It still does a number on marines or other heavy infantry.
Otherwise your list is accurate for right now. Should add in the FW units at some point too.
You're absolutely right that the Plasma Rifle is pretty good against MEQ and not bad versus Terminators. It performs acceptably against Hordes and Light (T5) Vehicles as well.
However, against Infantry (Including MEQ, but not TEQ) the ATS Burst Cannon does about the exact same and even better against Hordes.
While also having the advantage of being able to stand 18", making them significantly safer from changes.
On the other hand ATS MP performs better against Light Tanks (T6), and still acceptably against Infantry since it's still getting the 2 shots. AP-2 is more than enough for Hordes.
Overall the 3 weapons are roughly on par with each other (MP, PR, BC).
Flamers on the other hand are a Danger Close weapon, risky but the advantage of being able to shoot reliably multiple times per turn is pretty massive (Reliable Overwatch).
The Reliable Overwatch is the main reason it BARELY edged out a position above it's 3 Brothers.
Personally I'd move plasma rifles up to B. We may not be able to overcharge like imperium but it's a cheap way to get S6 AP -3. It still does a number on marines or other heavy infantry.
Plasma is a trap weapon for us. It seems useful, but according to the numbers, it definitely is not. R'Varnas put the final nail in plasma's coffin. With an ATS, they're basically putting out a ton of plasma damage per turn at range on a really durable platform. It's a little difficult to quantify how much better R'Varnas are than plasma suits, but with average shots and maximum damage, the cost is approximately equal between Crisis Suits and R'Varnas. Given the durability differential, that looks awfully bad for the suits.
3 Plasma Rifle on Crisis Suits is cheap and effective. They will be the cheapest go to weapon when Death Guard codex comes out. If you face them without plasma, good luck.
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FirePainter wrote: The main issues I see for tau is a true horde army, like 120+ works or gants. I just don't know if we could kill enough in 5 turns to be able to fight for objs. Big flyer or Mister lists er can deal with via fusion or hammerheads. Elite infantry are dealt with by breachers or Plasms or just weight of fire.
Stealthsuits are one of the most improved units too. The -1 to hit at all times is amazing along with the toughness and extra wound from 7th. I've been running 8+ stealths so far and they never let me down
Stealthsuits are awsome in the new edition gotta admit. Im running 2 groups of 6, they are just as durable as space marine terminators imo, and put out great anti horde firepower.
Seriusly, even if seekers did D3 damage, and kept the current price-I wouldn't take them.
Mostly because I can't even bother with markerlights. they are just a hassle, especially given how most benefits don't even apply a large portion of the time.
First marker is redundant if you got rerolls of 1 from one of many other sources like multi trackers, storm of fire, command link drone, sensor tower (who is in itself a markerlight!)
Second is meaningless unless you pack missiles, and as most people would agree, the missiles are not worth bothering with.
Third is useless if you pack rapid fire, in a montka aura, got a TL (any big suit would) or just stand still.
Forth does nothing unless you target has a cove bonus, but cover is less common in 8th, and can be negated by AP just as much.
And the fifth is pointless is you are a commander or longstrike-who are some of our best shooters to begin with-and while its freaking amazing for drones, you can't control who they shoot all that much, and investing THIS much into drone shots is madness...
The fact my tetras are rendered slowed by the FW index doesn't help the markerlight case.
I just can't justify taking any in the current state.
And with zero markers-missiles are out of the question.
The problem with tau isn't that we got nerfed way too hard, or that we can't make a viable list.
Its that just most of the index is useless junk, and there are only a handful of decent units, further condemned by the fact it plays nothing like how it played in the past.
Forget 7th late formation madness (retaliation cadre my beloved...), or even 6th with our power surge (and the annoying taunar), I'm talking 5th here.
Surrounding the enemy with stealth and crisis suits who are just out of reach, keeping out of sight and just making it hard to pin down and get a straight fight-having the battle lines blurred and mayham going on all over the place as shots are coming from all sides, that's just not a thing any more now that JSJ is gone.
Yea, I can drop anywhere, except I cant-because a key part of my "thing" was to drop INSIDE the enemy formations in order to get the perfect shot (fusion on tasty tank mostly), now a bubble wrap don't make it balsy to drop, it makes it outright impossible. so I drop in the outskirts of the general army.
Then I get assaulted because the enemy took casualties from behind-if the unit I shot it was even the one up front to begin with-and I can't move after shooting, plus there is a fair chance my suits are not even as fast as the enemy to begin with.
This isn't my tau.
This isn't the army i built into, invested in in it's lowest, and highest, and stuck with it's purity even when blending allies could bring me greater results (taudar traitors)
Its a playable army, if you are willing to go into spesific paths-but the enclaves battlesuit elite is just gone. I can't replicate it, I've got rules for the models, but these are not the same units any more.
Every model from 7th is playable in 8th as promised-but not every army. farsight enclaves was effectively removed from the list, as did many other tau variations.
If you played dirty, you're gone. anyone that doesn't favor a straight up sludge match is highly disappointed.
Amen to that.
I just hope that somehow GW listens to the multiple feedback from Tau players. I have no interest in having a tier 1 army, I rarely play games at all and let alone tournaments. But I want a playable army.
Having a bottom tier army hurts the Tau community. The problem is that, just like me, there are a lot of players who are influenced in their purchases by the actual rules, at least to a certain degree.
Let's hope that the game designers realize how much the Tau playerbase is being hurt, if they even care about it. If their marketing guys think that Tau sold too well in the last few years and cannibalized sales from other factions, let's brace for a few years of insignificance.
If all the FLG theory is true, I just hope that Matt Ward gets the job of writing our next Codex.
And to come back to the actual discussion: I think that the problem does not lie in the Commander itself. If the other battlesuits were costed and balanced appropriately (BS 3+ for example), we wouldn't have to spam Commanders.
As for how to balance them, I'd say limit the Commander to 3 weapons + 1 support system, bring all the suits to BS3+ and merge the first two ML effects (thus having a 1-4ML table). Then balance points accordingly.
I dont really understand wanting 3+ BS on all our stuff, just like space marines. Not gonna happen. There is a reason we have markerlight's, use them and get your 3+ with re roll 1's, or go play Space Marines and stop complaining. We are balanced because we dont have 3+ BS in our normal statline. If you dont like 4+ BS, then why did you buy a Tau army? We are not Space Marines. Also I dont spam commanders and I win plenty of games with just Crisis Suits and Markerlights.
You're absolutely right that the Plasma Rifle is pretty good against MEQ and not bad versus Terminators. It performs acceptably against Hordes and Light (T5) Vehicles as well.
However, against Infantry (Including MEQ, but not TEQ) the ATS Burst Cannon does about the exact same and even better against Hordes.
While also having the advantage of being able to stand 18", making them significantly safer from changes.
On the other hand ATS MP performs better against Light Tanks (T6), and still acceptably against Infantry since it's still getting the 2 shots. AP-2 is more than enough for Hordes.
I would like to point out that this is not a fair comparison. You are comparing a PR by itself against BCs and MPs assisted by a support system, in this case ATS. Obviously any weapon supported by a support system is going to perform better than a weapon by itself, I don't think many players here would challenge that. If you're going to properly compare these weapons, you have to hold everything else equal. If the PR is going to be barebones, then the BC and MP have to be barebones as well. "But you should never take BCs or MPs without an ATS, therefore we have to use the ATS!" Fair enough, but in that case you need to give the PR an ATS as well. Or, since the ATS is not necessarily the best support system to pair with a PR, then figure out what the best support system would be and use that. Outside of that, it's not a fair comparison and any data we get from it or conclusions we draw from it will be at least partially incorrect.
Also should probably factor in points cost as well, seeing as a PR is 7 points cheaper than a BC with ATS, and 21 points cheaper than an MP with ATS.
Crusaderobr wrote: They will be the cheapest go to weapon when Death Guard codex comes out. If you face them without plasma, good luck..
You're not wrong that Plasma Rifles are uniquely amazing specifically against Plague Marines.
Tho to achieve that Amazing Status you need to be within 12" of said Plague Marines, otherwise you're performing worse than a Burst Cannon would.
In which case you're placing 300 points of Suits in tremendous Risk.
Actually speaking of Burst Cannons, another major aspect of a Death Guard list is the SPAM upon SPAM upon SPAM of the stupid Zombies.
Burst Cannons are actually pretty great against them too.
You're honestly better off running a few squads of RifleFinders to thin out Plague Marines than using Plasma Rifles.
You're absolutely right that the Plasma Rifle is pretty good against MEQ and not bad versus Terminators. It performs acceptably against Hordes and Light (T5) Vehicles as well.
However, against Infantry (Including MEQ, but not TEQ) the ATS Burst Cannon does about the exact same and even better against Hordes.
While also having the advantage of being able to stand 18", making them significantly safer from changes.
On the other hand ATS MP performs better against Light Tanks (T6), and still acceptably against Infantry since it's still getting the 2 shots. AP-2 is more than enough for Hordes.
I would like to point out that this is not a fair comparison. You are comparing a PR by itself against BCs and MPs assisted by a support system, in this case ATS. Obviously any weapon supported by a support system is going to perform better than a weapon by itself, I don't think many players here would challenge that. If you're going to properly compare these weapons, you have to hold everything else equal. If the PR is going to be barebones, then the BC and MP have to be barebones as well. "But you should never take BCs or MPs without an ATS, therefore we have to use the ATS!" Fair enough, but in that case you need to give the PR an ATS as well. Or, since the ATS is not necessarily the best support system to pair with a PR, then figure out what the best support system would be and use that. Outside of that, it's not a fair comparison and any data we get from it or conclusions we draw from it will be at least partially incorrect.
Also should probably factor in points cost as well, seeing as a PR is 7 points cheaper than a BC with ATS, and 21 points cheaper than an MP with ATS.
I'm factoring in costs, and I'm comparing them fairly because I'm giving it a support system.
In exchange Plasma Rifles are literally gaining additional shots.
I'm not doing 1 Burst Cannon + ATS vs 1 Plasma Rifle
I'm doing BS+4 2 Burst Cannons + ATS vs 3 Plasma Rifles.
or BS+4 2 Missile Pods + ATS vs 3 Plasma Rifles
Because that's the loadout on the Crisis Suit. That is literally the option we are given.
If I were to do BS+4 2 Burst Cannons + ATS vs 2 Plasma Rifles + ATS...
Well, you just made the Plasma Rifle even weaker! Since there are VERY VERY few targets in which that's optimal against.
There are no other Support System that can increase offensive capabilities. (Well... VT, but that's even more situational)
(I'm also comparing how they perform on a Monat, just didn't feel like repeating myself)
Crusaderobr wrote: They will be the cheapest go to weapon when Death Guard codex comes out. If you face them without plasma, good luck..
You're not wrong that Plasma Rifles are uniquely amazing specifically against Plague Marines. Tho to achieve that Amazing Status you need to be within 12" of said Plague Marines, otherwise you're performing worse than a Burst Cannon would. In which case you're placing 300 points of Suits in tremendous Risk.
Actually speaking of Burst Cannons, another major aspect of a Death Guard list is the SPAM upon SPAM upon SPAM of the stupid Zombies. Burst Cannons are actually pretty great against them too.
You're honestly better off running a few squads of RifleFinders to thin out Plague Marines than using Plasma Rifles.
To be fair Tau have always been the army of target priority and focusing down a threat one at a time. proper use of deep striking positioning and deleting the target is how they always played.
oh god it reminds me of 5th and how hard that was.
Desubot wrote: Getting the +1 bs is fairly unreliable. but i dont understand the whole complaint about it.
i guess people just got way too used to easy +1
For me personally, its honestly more of a fluff complaint then anything else (Personally my opinion is that all Shas'Vre models should get BS 3+, not all battlesuits or the entire army). Shas'Vres have, at minimum, 8 years of combat and military experience, not counting their training through childhood. They are the best soldiers the Tau have to offer, aside from Shas'Os and Fireblades. And yet in crunch they shoot the exact same as a Fire Warrior on his first day of service. A Guard Veteran is described in fluff as being a survivor or what, one or two campaigns or something like that? And to reflect that they are better shots ingame than regular Guardsmen. But the Tau's most seasoned veterans never become better shots until the day they are promoted to Shas'O, at which point they magically become twice as good at shooting on the spot?
Of course, fluff arguments can never justify rules changes, so I would simply say that in rules terms, I think we're the only army to have such a drastic jump in efficiency between our HQs (BS 2+) and the rest of our army (mostly BS 4+). Having some sense of progression would be nice, especially since the units I personally am advocating for having better BS universally got much more expensive and it has become so much harder to buff our shooting at all.
I don't think Darkstrider should be that down. He helps units near him leave combat and shoot again, has BS2+ ML and can help 1 unit reduce T of enemy
The reason hes so low is that firewarriors are a C troop and drone already have the fly special rule. The firecast is just better - gives drones more shooting - still has bs2 marker light AND he has a 4+ save compared to a 5+.
Desubot wrote: Getting the +1 bs is fairly unreliable. but i dont understand the whole complaint about it.
i guess people just got way too used to easy +1
For me personally, its honestly more of a fluff complaint then anything else (Personally my opinion is that all Shas'Vre models should get BS 3+, not all battlesuits or the entire army). Shas'Vres have, at minimum, 8 years of combat and military experience, not counting their training through childhood. They are the best soldiers the Tau have to offer, aside from Shas'Os and Fireblades. And yet in crunch they shoot the exact same as a Fire Warrior on his first day of service. A Guard Veteran is described in fluff as being a survivor or what, one or two campaigns or something like that? And to reflect that they are better shots ingame than regular Guardsmen. But the Tau's most seasoned veterans never become better shots until the day they are promoted to Shas'O, at which point they magically become twice as good at shooting on the spot?
Of course, fluff arguments can never justify rules changes, so I would simply say that in rules terms, I think we're the only army to have such a drastic jump in efficiency between our HQs (BS 2+) and the rest of our army (mostly BS 4+). Having some sense of progression would be nice, especially since the units I personally am advocating for having better BS universally got much more expensive and it has become so much harder to buff our shooting at all.
Desubot wrote: Getting the +1 bs is fairly unreliable. but i dont understand the whole complaint about it.
i guess people just got way too used to easy +1
Thanks, your comment finally made me realise what had really been bugging me about the new marker light table; it's the loss of flexibility.
Previously I could choose what I wanted those marker lights to do, depending on the situation; for example if I want to guarantee re-rolls, I'd need to shoot 3-4 marker lights at a target. However they might all hit, which means I suddenly get four marker lights on a target, but if it is in the open and I only want to shoot rapid fire or assault weapons then two (or three if no missiles are available) of them are wasted. Under the previous rules those lights would still be useful to boost BS (or under the old-old rules, penalise leadership for morale checks, which would be awesome in this edition). Now I either have to chance yet more marker lights (if I have them) to gamble on getting 5 and a mediocre +1 to hit, or suck up the fact that my good fortune has done absolutely nothing to benefit me.
Crusaderobr wrote: They will be the cheapest go to weapon when Death Guard codex comes out. If you face them without plasma, good luck..
You're not wrong that Plasma Rifles are uniquely amazing specifically against Plague Marines.
You're honestly better off running a few squads of RifleFinders to thin out Plague Marines than using Plasma Rifles.
Your statements are very conflicting. Can pathfinders help thin a squad of plague marines? Absolutely. Are they better than a 3x plasma Crisis squad? Probably not. Burst Cannons are perfect for those stupid Pox Walkers, that we can easily agree on.
Desubot wrote: Getting the +1 bs is fairly unreliable. but i dont understand the whole complaint about it.
i guess people just got way too used to easy +1
Because we're a shooting army that can't shoot? Are you guys really that confused about this?
IG is a shooting army with 4+ to hit
are they a bad shooting army?
(besides scions whom are fairly undercoated for what they are doing and the mobility they come with)
No, but their costs are reduced to justify their BS+4
While we somehow pay more than Space Marines for our Guns
Not to mention most of their Elite Options have BS+3... and they can take Heavy Weapons for insanely platforms cheap.
I think most of our shooting is fine right now (a few outliers, but there always is) but our costs are definitely too high.
To be fair Tau have always been the army of target priority and focusing down a threat one at a time. proper use of deep striking positioning and deleting the target is how they always played.
oh god it reminds me of 5th and how hard that was.
(besides scions whom are fairly undercoated for what they are doing and the mobility they come with)
IG have always been about volume of fire; they are a horde shooting army that succeeds by putting out a ridiculous amount of mediocre shooting.
Tau are supposed to be about using precision, high effectiveness firepower; absolutely nailing a few targets through combined arms tactics, be that marker light support, commander/ethereal/Fireblade buffs, or simple high-mobility hit and fade attacks from multiple sources.
The first one has been seriously nerfed, the second and third ones are suffering because although we still have buffs and mobility, our core units have poor cost/capability balance in the first place, so you need to use all of the tricks to get them back to being average, rather than starting from average and using the tricks to win.
(besides scions whom are fairly undercoated for what they are doing and the mobility they come with)
IG have always been about volume of fire; they are a horde shooting army that succeeds by putting out a ridiculous amount of mediocre shooting.
Tau are supposed to be about using precision, high effectiveness firepower; absolutely nailing a few targets through combined arms tactics, be that marker light support, commander/ethereal/Fireblade buffs, or simple high-mobility hit and fade attacks from multiple sources.
The first one has been seriously nerfed, the second and third ones are suffering because although we still have buffs and mobility, our core units have poor cost/capability balance in the first place, so you need to use all of the tricks to get them back to being average, rather than starting from average and using the tricks to win.
Precision in the sense that the guns in general are better, longer range, better output sure. not in the sense that you are hitting better unless you are commuting markers to them. thats how they were previous
Crusaderobr wrote: They will be the cheapest go to weapon when Death Guard codex comes out. If you face them without plasma, good luck..
You're not wrong that Plasma Rifles are uniquely amazing specifically against Plague Marines.
Tho to achieve that Amazing Status you need to be within 12" of said Plague Marines, otherwise you're performing worse than a Burst Cannon would.
In which case you're placing 300 points of Suits in tremendous Risk.
Actually speaking of Burst Cannons, another major aspect of a Death Guard list is the SPAM upon SPAM upon SPAM of the stupid Zombies.
Burst Cannons are actually pretty great against them too.
You're honestly better off running a few squads of RifleFinders to thin out Plague Marines than using Plasma Rifles.
You're absolutely right that the Plasma Rifle is pretty good against MEQ and not bad versus Terminators. It performs acceptably against Hordes and Light (T5) Vehicles as well.
However, against Infantry (Including MEQ, but not TEQ) the ATS Burst Cannon does about the exact same and even better against Hordes.
While also having the advantage of being able to stand 18", making them significantly safer from changes.
On the other hand ATS MP performs better against Light Tanks (T6), and still acceptably against Infantry since it's still getting the 2 shots. AP-2 is more than enough for Hordes.
I would like to point out that this is not a fair comparison. You are comparing a PR by itself against BCs and MPs assisted by a support system, in this case ATS. Obviously any weapon supported by a support system is going to perform better than a weapon by itself, I don't think many players here would challenge that. If you're going to properly compare these weapons, you have to hold everything else equal. If the PR is going to be barebones, then the BC and MP have to be barebones as well. "But you should never take BCs or MPs without an ATS, therefore we have to use the ATS!" Fair enough, but in that case you need to give the PR an ATS as well. Or, since the ATS is not necessarily the best support system to pair with a PR, then figure out what the best support system would be and use that. Outside of that, it's not a fair comparison and any data we get from it or conclusions we draw from it will be at least partially incorrect.
Also should probably factor in points cost as well, seeing as a PR is 7 points cheaper than a BC with ATS, and 21 points cheaper than an MP with ATS.
I'm factoring in costs, and I'm comparing them fairly because I'm giving it a support system.
In exchange Plasma Rifles are literally gaining additional shots.
I'm not doing 1 Burst Cannon + ATS vs 1 Plasma Rifle
I'm doing BS+4 2 Burst Cannons + ATS vs 3 Plasma Rifles.
or BS+4 2 Missile Pods + ATS vs 3 Plasma Rifles
Because that's the loadout on the Crisis Suit. That is literally the option we are given.
If I were to do BS+4 2 Burst Cannons + ATS vs 2 Plasma Rifles + ATS...
Well, you just made the Plasma Rifle even weaker! Since there are VERY VERY few targets in which that's optimal against.
There are no other Support System that can increase offensive capabilities. (Well... VT, but that's even more situational)
(I'm also comparing how they perform on a Monat, just didn't feel like repeating myself)
There also used to be the support system for suits that gave them +1bs back in 4th. It was called targeting array and that wasn't broken then. Our "elite" battlesuits don't feel elite except for their numbers which got even smaller this edition. Getting to bring 3 guns and actually use them is great but hitting on 4s is a big bummer. Crisis teams do work for sure but idk they just don't feel like elite precision killers as much anymore.
Crusaderobr wrote: They will be the cheapest go to weapon when Death Guard codex comes out. If you face them without plasma, good luck..
You're not wrong that Plasma Rifles are uniquely amazing specifically against Plague Marines.
You're honestly better off running a few squads of RifleFinders to thin out Plague Marines than using Plasma Rifles.
Your statements are very conflicting. Can pathfinders help thin a squad of plague marines? Absolutely. Are they better than a 3x plasma Crisis squad? Probably not. Burst Cannons are perfect for those stupid Pox Walkers, that we can easily agree on.
Edit
I want to clarify that the Crisis Suits have a ton of advantages such as vastly increased mobility and survivability.
However the Pathfinders also carry a ton of advantages, such as direct access to 2 Markerlight and Grav Drones.
Also -
Ion 30 - 1 * 3 * 2 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 0.66
Which doesn't /sound/ amazing, but it's only 36 points.
Crusaderobr wrote: They will be the cheapest go to weapon when Death Guard codex comes out. If you face them without plasma, good luck..
You're not wrong that Plasma Rifles are uniquely amazing specifically against Plague Marines.
You're honestly better off running a few squads of RifleFinders to thin out Plague Marines than using Plasma Rifles.
Your statements are very conflicting. Can pathfinders help thin a squad of plague marines? Absolutely. Are they better than a 3x plasma Crisis squad? Probably not. Burst Cannons are perfect for those stupid Pox Walkers, that we can easily agree on.
Well of course 3 special weapons guys that normally belong in a squad are gonna win out against a single suit, you didnt need to math hammer that particular scenario. The squad is quite good vs plague marines. 3 Crisis with 3x plasma manta striking will still ruin a squad of plague marines day.
Well of course 3 special weapons guys that normally belong in a squad are gonna win out against a single suit, you didnt need to math hammer that particular scenario. The squad is quite good vs plague marines. 3 Crisis with 3x plasma manta striking will still ruin a squad of plague marines day.
Crisis Suit are basically 3 Special Weapons guys rolled into 1.
It's not even that the 2 additional guys are a tax, since 2 Markerlights is the optimal number to get exactly 1 success.
The Squad even provides access to a Grav Drone which is one of our best Drones.
Only performs marginally better (over 200 points worth) than a SINGLE squad of Railfinders.
Tho back to the original "conflicting statements", the rankings are not how a Weapon performs specifically against Death Guard or Plague Marines.
The weapon rankings are open and attempt to take as many factors as possible. Plasma Rifles being good against Plague Marines specifically isn't enough of a reason to make them a higher Tier.
Would you consider taking Darkstrider with Pathfinders? He is a cheap 45 points and allows them to wound stuff much easier. So for example their ion rifles could wound a nercon pylon on overcharge shots with 3+ wounds. Or 50/50 with uncharged. He could also bring marines down to str 3 for those easy 2+ wounds and all sorts of tricks. Finally he lets them do the while fly thing just in case and provides a fairly reliable ML hit if you just need a reroll 1 somewhere.
Gamgee wrote: Would you consider taking Darkstrider with Pathfinders? He is a cheap 45 points and allows them to wound stuff much easier. So for example their ion rifles could wound a nercon pylon on overcharge shots with 3+ wounds. Or 50/50 with uncharged. He could also bring marines down to str 3 for those easy 2+ wounds and all sorts of tricks. Finally he lets them do the while fly thing just in case and provides a fairly reliable ML hit if you just need a reroll 1 somewhere.
Her ability to allow Infantry to Fall Back and Shoot is irrelevant on everything but Breachers. Our Infantry aren't strong enough to be of significant damage output.
You may say "But look at how strong you just proved those Pathfinders are", but if any enemy gets into melee with them there is a fair chance they are already dead.
Her ability to reduce Toughness is another one that sounds amazing, but you would get more output from simply just having more models attempting the same thing.
Perhaps even using a different model for a problematic source.
Remember, our Infantry is quite cheap.
3 Ion Rifles is only 36 points
3 Rail Rifles is only 81 points
Spending 45 points to give them an additional 1d6 chance of success is far too minor
Rail 15 - (1 * 3 * 2 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 6/6) + (1 * 3 * 2 * 1/2 * 1/6) = 2.5
DS Rail 15 - (1 * 3 * 2 * 1/2 * 5/6 * 6/6) + (1 * 3 * 2 * 1/2 * 1/6) = 3
Just bringing even 1 more Rail Rifle in a new Squad would cost 59 points and provide higher damage
4 Rail 15 - (1 * 4 * 2 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 6/6) + (1 * 3 * 2 * 1/2 * 1/6) = 3.16
and more Markerlights, and access to another Grav Drone.
To Recap
Full Breacher Squad + Darkstrider = Solid
Darkstrider supporting anything else? = Pretty weak
Okay thanks for the breakdown, but I have to use him since I have no other commanders for my army lol. I need a second commander asap. I do have shadowsun, but eh I want to keep my HQ's as cheap as possible if I can't get commanders.
One thing you got wrong. Darkstrider is a he. lol.
Well of course 3 special weapons guys that normally belong in a squad are gonna win out against a single suit, you didnt need to math hammer that particular scenario. The squad is quite good vs plague marines. 3 Crisis with 3x plasma manta striking will still ruin a squad of plague marines day.
Crisis Suit are basically 3 Special Weapons guys rolled into 1.
It's not even that the 2 additional guys are a tax, since 2 Markerlights is the optimal number to get exactly 1 success.
The Squad even provides access to a Grav Drone which is one of our best Drones.
Only performs marginally better (over 200 points worth) than a SINGLE squad of Railfinders.
Tho back to the original "conflicting statements", the rankings are not how a Weapon performs specifically against Death Guard or Plague Marines.
The weapon rankings are open and attempt to take as many factors as possible. Plasma Rifles being good against Plague Marines specifically isn't enough of a reason to make them a higher Tier.
What about markerlight support from just 1 and 5? Plasma are great at pretty much anything T6 and lower, although not as many shots as a burst cannon for horde. Another good squad to mathematically compare would be a full 3 man Crisis team with 2 plasma and a burst cannon each. A solid good all around anti infantry loadout.
Vector Strike wrote: I think I'd use TX-42 Piranhas instead of Pathfinders for Rail Rifles. A bit more expensive, but much more resilient and fast. And no morale problems!
I rather keep Crisis Suits be the fast moving Assault Suit
I think Stealth Suits would be more suited for Ion or Rail Rifles.
What I really want to see is Crisis Bodyguards to be completely remade.
Renamed Anchor Suits (or some other name)
6" T6, 4W 3+ Save
FTGG, BKR, Fly
Sworn Protector
Each Anchor Suit comes equipped with an SMS and Shield Generator
Any Anchor Suit may replace their SMS with an Ion Rifle or a Rail Rifle.
Any Anchor Suit may take a single item for the Support Systems List.
Any Anchor Suit may take an additional SMS, Ion Rifle, or Rail Rifle.
Sure they would, if priced accordingly. Only reason I take Plasma is the devastating combo of having high ap on the cheap compared to other weapons available.
Sure they would, if priced accordingly. Only reason I take Plasma is the devastating combo of having high ap on the cheap compared to other weapons available.
Same here. Plasma is a cheap way for Tau to kill Space Marines efficiently. I would give my suits either 3 plasma each or 2 plasma and Multitracker for rerolling 1's without needing markerlights.
Sure they would, if priced accordingly. Only reason I take Plasma is the devastating combo of having high ap on the cheap compared to other weapons available.
Same here. Plasma is a cheap way for Tau to kill Space Marines efficiently. I would give my suits either 3 plasma each or 2 plasma and Multitracker for rerolling 1's without needing markerlights.
This is a 7e Mindset of when Crisis Suits were cheap.
I think the current 22 point Rail Rifle would allow for Plasma Rifles to be viable for sheer cost. Let's see...
Sure they would, if priced accordingly. Only reason I take Plasma is the devastating combo of having high ap on the cheap compared to other weapons available.
Same here. Plasma is a cheap way for Tau to kill Space Marines efficiently. I would give my suits either 3 plasma each or 2 plasma and Multitracker for rerolling 1's without needing markerlights.
This is a 7e Mindset of when Crisis Suits were cheap.
I think the current 22 point Rail Rifle would allow for Plasma Rifles to be viable for sheer cost. Let's see...
Crusaderobr wrote: Cost is pretty good actually, you get 3 wounds 5 toughness, fly, what more do you want in a Battlesuit squad?
Probably... a 6 point cost reduction.
Don't think of Crisis Suits as an Infantry Unit, since they aren't.
Think of them as a Light Tank.
3 Wounds is insanely low for a Light Tank.
Cost is pretty good actually, you get 3 wounds 5 toughness, fly, what more do you want in a Battlesuit squad?
Compare them with Ravenwing Black Knights or Attack Bikes or whatever else. They do not stack up favorably. Taking 3 special weapons on one dude is nice, but they're still overcosted by about 10 pts.
As for the proposed rule changes, I'm on board. Those seem much more appropriate and useful. Ditto the seeker changes and how they interact with markers.
FW xeno FAQ is up. Y'varhs and R'varna shield drones got a 5+ FNP. R'myr got 3++ in melee now. Blacklight markers get stable platform. Fixed points on the hammerheads.
I would have liked something on when the y'varha novas its weapons. I've been playing it as you get one nova'd to avoid arguments.
Looks like I've been on a right track considering dropping Fire warriors entirely and running pathfinders instead, along with the usual drones and commanders.
Lots of corrections on everyone's stuff, ours included. R'alai's Blacklight Marker Drones got their stable platform (pretty sure they were missing that before?). Photon Casters had the wording fixed. Tiger Shark got the Titan Killer special rule to fire Macro weapons after moving. FW Hammerheads and Blacklight Marker Drones got their points corrected. Pretty much expected stuff.
There is something quite interesting however. The R'varna and Y'vahra shield drones and shielded missile drones got a new ability. "In addition, roll a D6 each time a drone with this ability loses a wound; on a 5+ that Drone does not lose a wound." Shield Drones got a 5+ FnP base now. They're actually usable again with Savior Protocols!
Lots of corrections on everyone's stuff, ours included. R'alai's Blacklight Marker Drones got their stable platform (pretty sure they were missing that before?). Photon Casters had the wording fixed. Tiger Shark got the Titan Killer special rule to fire Macro weapons after moving. FW Hammerheads and Blacklight Marker Drones got their points corrected. Pretty much expected stuff.
There is something quite interesting however. The R'varna and Y'vahra shield drones and shielded missile drones got a new ability. "In addition, roll a D6 each time a drone with this ability loses a wound; on a 5+ that Drone does not lose a wound." Shield Drones got a 5+ FnP base now. They're actually usable again with Savior Protocols!
lets hope GW see this and reissue the FAQ to include that for all shield drones.
Whay do you guys think about conceiving of sniper drones not as dedicated sniper units, but as very long range, accurate gun drones that can fulfill a supplementary sniper roll?
Really, their advantages over ratlings, rangers, and so forth (which they are actually comparable to in terms of damage on a model by model basis within 24") are their mobility, range, and ability to fire on the move. Maybe we should be looking at them from this angle rather than the "can I zap a character in one turn?" angle.
Lots of corrections on everyone's stuff, ours included. R'alai's Blacklight Marker Drones got their stable platform (pretty sure they were missing that before?). Photon Casters had the wording fixed. Tiger Shark got the Titan Killer special rule to fire Macro weapons after moving. FW Hammerheads and Blacklight Marker Drones got their points corrected. Pretty much expected stuff.
There is something quite interesting however. The R'varna and Y'vahra shield drones and shielded missile drones got a new ability. "In addition, roll a D6 each time a drone with this ability loses a wound; on a 5+ that Drone does not lose a wound." Shield Drones got a 5+ FnP base now. They're actually usable again with Savior Protocols!
FNP doesn't work against mortal wounds like Savior Protocols unless it defines mortal wounds like stimpacks as wounds and mortal wounds are not the same thing. At least that's how I understand it. As far as I can see those Shield drones only FNP basic wounds as they are missing the key word that stimpacks have.
Lots of corrections on everyone's stuff, ours included. R'alai's Blacklight Marker Drones got their stable platform (pretty sure they were missing that before?). Photon Casters had the wording fixed. Tiger Shark got the Titan Killer special rule to fire Macro weapons after moving. FW Hammerheads and Blacklight Marker Drones got their points corrected. Pretty much expected stuff.
There is something quite interesting however. The R'varna and Y'vahra shield drones and shielded missile drones got a new ability. "In addition, roll a D6 each time a drone with this ability loses a wound; on a 5+ that Drone does not lose a wound." Shield Drones got a 5+ FnP base now. They're actually usable again with Savior Protocols!
FNP doesn't work against mortal wounds like Savior Protocols unless it defines mortal wounds like stimpacks as wounds and mortal wounds are not the same thing. At least that's how I understand it. As far as I can see those Shield drones only FNP basic wounds as they are missing the key word that stimpacks have.
Already been FAQd, All FNP works on Mortal Wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alcibiades wrote: Whay do you guys think about conceiving of sniper drones not as dedicated sniper units, but as very long range, accurate gun drones that can fulfill a supplementary sniper roll?
Really, their advantages over ratlings, rangers, and so forth (which they are actually comparable to in terms of damage on a model by model basis within 24") are their mobility, range, and ability to fire on the move. Maybe we should be looking at them from this angle rather than the "can I zap a character in one turn?" angle.
?
I think 2 shots for 18 points at 24" S5 AP0 is worse than basic Fire Warriors who do it at 30" for 16 points.
Looks like I've been on a right track considering dropping Fire warriors entirely and running pathfinders instead, along with the usual drones and commanders.
But how did Orks and Tau take top two when they're theworst armies?
As for the list, it looks good but I disagree about the total optimization. Pathfinders are squishy, the commanders don't have adequate screening units and I don't see any Y'Vahras....
Looks like I've been on a right track considering dropping Fire warriors entirely and running pathfinders instead, along with the usual drones and commanders.
But how did Orks and Tau take top two when they're theworst armies?
As for the list, it looks good but I disagree about the total optimization. Pathfinders are squishy, the commanders don't have adequate screening units and I don't see any Y'Vahras....
Y'vahra at 1650 points is a huge points sink. Analyzing the list would also be easier if we knew the missions used, but I haven't had the time yet to find those.
Adequate screening units is matter of choice. If he felt he had enough then he probably had. He bought drones for all his infantry too remember. Only one drone can keep the commander untargetable.
Pathfinders are squishy but he probably had 2 squads of them in the Devilfish. We also have to keep in mind that this guy is an excellent player. I would love to see his thoughts and maybe tournament report.
Fueli wrote: Pathfinders are squishy but he probably had 2 squads of them in the Devilfish. We also have to keep in mind that this guy is an excellent player. I would love to see his thoughts and maybe tournament report.
If I was him, I would put the 10 Drones in the Devil Fish with the Fireblade
Who cares about the Pathfinders being soft, they are super cheap
What do you think of using the alternative hammerheads now that they got their points fixed. I could seem some fun in using the twin heavy burst cannon one, with longstrike support and a single marker light you would have 16 S6 ap-1 shots hitting on a 2+ with a re-roll.
The rest still seem a bit lackluster for their firepower, although the bombardment version seems a lot better than the HYMP broadside, for 37 points you get better movement, more than double the durability and better accuracy although you lose out on the option for ATS
Fueli wrote: Pathfinders are squishy but he probably had 2 squads of them in the Devilfish. We also have to keep in mind that this guy is an excellent player. I would love to see his thoughts and maybe tournament report.
If I was him, I would put the 10 Drones in the Devil Fish with the Fireblade
Who cares about the Pathfinders being soft, they are super cheap
Them drawing fire is a benefit.
Just read from ATT that that is exactly what he did. And agreed on Pathfinders being cheap.
I think 2 shots for 18 points at 24" S5 AP0 is worse than basic Fire Warriors who do it at 30" for 16 points.
In terms of damage output at this range, yes, but they are more mobile than Fire Warriors and, more to the point, have 1 shot at 48".
If you stick them near someone with a Drone Controller, they're hitting at 3+ with their marksman.
"If you invest more points into the unit that you don't need to invest in another unit, and compared the unit you invested in to the unit you didn't, you can become slightly worse in comparison instead of plain old completely worse in every concievable way!"
"If you invest more points into the unit that you don't need to invest in another unit, and compared the unit you invested in to the unit you didn't, you can become slightly worse in comparison instead of plain old completely worse in every concievable way!"
Amazing insight.
I'm trying to find their function by looking at what distinguishes them from other units, not claiming brilliant insight.
Dantioch wrote: What do you think of using the alternative hammerheads now that they got their points fixed. I could seem some fun in using the twin heavy burst cannon one, with longstrike support and a single marker light you would have 16 S6 ap-1 shots hitting on a 2+ with a re-roll.
The rest still seem a bit lackluster for their firepower, although the bombardment version seems a lot better than the HYMP broadside, for 37 points you get better movement, more than double the durability and better accuracy although you lose out on the option for ATS
The Twin Plasma Cannon seems much better then the Ion Cannon, and fills a roll that Tau weapons seem to lack.
"If you invest more points into the unit that you don't need to invest in another unit, and compared the unit you invested in to the unit you didn't, you can become slightly worse in comparison instead of plain old completely worse in every concievable way!"
Amazing insight.
I'm trying to find their function by looking at what distinguishes them from other units, not claiming brilliant insight.
Then look to what distinguishes the unit (its ability to snipe), not its ability to compete slightly less poorly than "dumpster fire status" with our basic troop unit that costs less than half the points BEFORE you invest in a Firesight Marksman.
Because it doesn't compete in terms of efficient dakka against ANY other target. If they aren't firing at characters, they're firing inefficient guns inefficiently (or slightly less inefficiently when boosted by a FM). If they are firing at characters, they're still probably inefficient firing platforms. If you run out of characters to shoot, you either brought way too many Sniper Drones (and the non-character elements of your opponent army will end up steamrolling through your army due to so many points being put into inefficient firepower) or your enemy brought too few characters (which could go either way, depending on how character-dependent the units he brought are).
"If you invest more points into the unit that you don't need to invest in another unit, and compared the unit you invested in to the unit you didn't, you can become slightly worse in comparison instead of plain old completely worse in every concievable way!"
Amazing insight.
I'm trying to find their function by looking at what distinguishes them from other units, not claiming brilliant insight.
Then look to what distinguishes the unit (its ability to snipe), not its ability to compete slightly less poorly than "dumpster fire status" with our basic troop unit that costs less than half the points BEFORE you invest in a Firesight Marksman.
Because it doesn't compete in terms of efficient dakka against ANY other target. If they aren't firing at characters, they're firing inefficient guns inefficiently (or slightly less inefficiently when boosted by a FM). If they are firing at characters, they're still probably inefficient firing platforms. If you run out of characters to shoot, you either brought way too many Sniper Drones (and the non-character elements of your opponent army will end up steamrolling through your army due to so many points being put into inefficient firepower) or your enemy brought too few characters (which could go either way, depending on how character-dependent the units he brought are).
Actually, what I am looking at it is both what differentiates it from other Tau units, and what differentiates it from other snipers, and in doing so attempt to figure out how you're supposed to use it/how it can be used.
In the first category, we have:
It's more or less a gun drone with BS4+ and 48" range that can shoot characters.
In the second category, we have:
It can move 8", fly, has 48" range rather than the 36" standard, and is RF1 rather than Heavy 1 (in all cases, I think, other than Deathmarks), meaning that it can fire effectively while moving.
Actually, what I am looking at it is both what differentiates it from other Tau units, and what differentiates it from other snipers, and in doing so attempt to figure out how you're supposed to use it/how it can be used.
In the first category, we have:
It's more or less a gun drone with BS4+ and 48" range that can shoot characters.
In the second category, we have:
It can move 8", fly, has 48" range rather than the 36" standard, and is RF1 rather than Heavy 1 (in all cases, I think, other than Deathmarks), meaning that it can fire effectively while moving.
So you're saying it suffers from Tactical Squad problems
Buying too much garbage it doesn't use
The truth is 1 shot at 48" doesn't do anything.
BS4 - 1 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 67% chance of failure before the enemies armor is even considered
Even vs a Guardsman = Nearly 80% chance of failure.
It takes nearly 5 Sniper Drones to average 1 Dead Guardsman per turn.
If you want a STRONG 48" Gun, get a Krootox. Those guys are pretty great.
The FWFAQ is great by me. I'm glad they cleared up some common questions. A few thoughts:
1) The Hammerheads basically completely invalidate Broadsides. Why pay ~210pts for a HYMP Broadside when you can have double the wounds, an extra T, and probably hit on 2+ instead of 4+ thanks to Longstrike for another 30 pts. Oh yeah, you also get FLY. While not as clear of a replacement, the twin plasma cannon is quite a lot better than the HRR overall, at first blush, too. Fix our Broadsides, damn it!
2) Speaking of invalidating things, WTF, ion cannon? Why do you cost so much? Plasma rocks your world.
3) Tiger Sharks are nasty! Note that the proviso they intitally inserted about not firing the other non rail cannon weapons isn't there. 583pts nets you about a medium vehicle kill and a half per turn on a really durable, fast platform. That's not the absolute most amazing deal ever in terms of pure offense, but it seems worth a try, for sure. God help your opponent if he brings Knights.
4) I'm glad they made shielded drones do something, but I'll still never use them.
5) Remoras not suffering heavy weapon penalties: excellent. They're still crappy units, though.
6) O'Ralai got buffed some, i guess, but he's still no fusion Commander. If I'm spending that many points on a Commander of any kind, he better melt faces in spectacular fashion. 2 Watered-down lascannons is a start but not impressive enough. If only he could actually snipe, he'd be damn good.
Dantioch wrote: What do you think of using the alternative hammerheads now that they got their points fixed. I could seem some fun in using the twin heavy burst cannon one, with longstrike support and a single marker light you would have 16 S6 ap-1 shots hitting on a 2+ with a re-roll.
The rest still seem a bit lackluster for their firepower, although the bombardment version seems a lot better than the HYMP broadside, for 37 points you get better movement, more than double the durability and better accuracy although you lose out on the option for ATS
The Twin Plasma Cannon seems much better then the Ion Cannon, and fills a roll that Tau weapons seem to lack.
What role exactly? melting TeQ?
Also, not quite sure the plasma actually IS better than the ion.
Cant get S8 with overcharging (who deals 3 damage per shot too), is it might not be as destructive against High T high wound targets.
Sure, plasma looks good, but I won't be so quick to declare it outright better than ion.
Speaking of Hammerhead weapons, are Ion cannons even worth considering? You get more shots than a Railgun, but those shots are weaker and you don't get that many more. Not sure they are worth the higher price tag, but what does everyone else think?
So you're saying it suffers from Tactical Squad problems
Buying too much garbage it doesn't use
The truth is 1 shot at 48" doesn't do anything.
BS4 - 1 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 67% chance of failure before the enemies armor is even considered
Even vs a Guardsman = Nearly 80% chance of failure.
It takes nearly 5 Sniper Drones to average 1 Dead Guardsman per turn.
If you want a STRONG 48" Gun, get a Krootox. Those guys are pretty great.
Krootoxen do look good. I'm planning on ordering several.
Comparing drones to an about equal points value of Firewarriors, they have about half the firepower at 1"-15", the same from 16"-24", then the Firewarriors win at 25"-30", then the drones can shoot from 31-48". So, given the drones' increased survivability and mobility, maybe I'd call it a wash?
Except that that requires the additional points investment of the Marksman to increase their BS to 4+. So...hmmm.
So you're saying it suffers from Tactical Squad problems
Buying too much garbage it doesn't use
The truth is 1 shot at 48" doesn't do anything.
BS4 - 1 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 67% chance of failure before the enemies armor is even considered
Even vs a Guardsman = Nearly 80% chance of failure.
It takes nearly 5 Sniper Drones to average 1 Dead Guardsman per turn.
If you want a STRONG 48" Gun, get a Krootox. Those guys are pretty great.
Krootoxen do look good. I'm planning on ordering several.
Comparing drones to an about equal points value of Firewarriors, they have about half the firepower at 1"-15", the same from 16"-24", then the Firewarriors win at 25"-30", then the drones can shoot from 31-48". So, given the drones' increased survivability and mobility, maybe I'd call it a wash?
On an absolute level, they are more durable (T4 instead of T3, -1 to hit if not closest), but for their points, they are either equally durable or significantly less durable (unless the model firing at you is a BS5+ shooter, so basically Orks and Conscripts).
Example1: a set of 10 lasguns fire at each target outside of Rapid Fire range with a BS of 4+.
Vs Firewarriors: 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/2 fail save. 1/8 * 10 shots = 1.25 dead Firewarriors (10 points)
Vs Sniper Drones: 1/3 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/2 fail save. 1/18*10 shots = 5/9 dead Sniper Drones (10 points)
Example 2: A set of 10 boltguns fire at each target outside of RF range with a BS3+
Vs Firewarriors: 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 1/2 fail save. 2/9 * 10 shots = 2.22 dead firearriors (roughly 18 points)
Vs Sniper Drones: 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/2 fail saves. 1/8 *10 shots = 1.25 dead Sniper Drones (22.5 points)
Example 3: 5 Plasmaguns fire at each target outside of Rapid Fire range with a BS of 3+
Vs Firewarriors: 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/1 fail saves. 5/9 *10 shots = 5.55 dead firewarriors (roughly 44 points)
vs Sniper Drones: 1/2 hit, 2/3 wound, 1/1 fail saves. 1/3 *10 shots = 3.33 dead Snipers (roughly 60 points)
Replace the first Example with Conscript BS of 5+, and you finally see Sniper Drones have greater durability than Fire Warriors for their points! Wow! Amazing!
They are slightly more mobile and have fly. Ain't getting it past the lid of the Dumpster Fire it currently is in, though.
Except that that requires the additional points investment of the Marksman to increase their BS to 4+. So...hmmm.
Basically. You can keep pretending they're an efficient source of not-aimed-at-hidden-characters dakka, but you're gonna have a hard time convincing anyone in the face of the clear math you face.
Mostly pleased with Tau changes. Some stuff remain, though:
- Y'vhara Nova'ing 1 or 2 weapons?
- High-intensity markerlight is hot garbage
- R'varna costing 1 PL less than a Y'vhara, but more than 30p than the latter
- XV9 Hazard keeping their T5 from 7th, when every other battlesuit got a Toughenss upgrade in 8th
- Tigershark Fighter-Bomber having Ld7 while the AX-1-0 has 8 (why the difference? They're exactly the same model with different upgrades)
- Heavy Gun Drones missing Stable Platform and their own markerlights not helping the unit
- R'alai EMP weapon and Y'vahra's Ionic Discharge Cannon still have wonky 'haywire' rules (worse than any other in the game)
That aside, really liking their attention to the questions people have been sending them!
So you're saying it suffers from Tactical Squad problems
Buying too much garbage it doesn't use
The truth is 1 shot at 48" doesn't do anything.
BS4 - 1 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 67% chance of failure before the enemies armor is even considered
Even vs a Guardsman = Nearly 80% chance of failure.
It takes nearly 5 Sniper Drones to average 1 Dead Guardsman per turn.
If you want a STRONG 48" Gun, get a Krootox. Those guys are pretty great.
Krootoxen do look good. I'm planning on ordering several.
Comparing drones to an about equal points value of Firewarriors, they have about half the firepower at 1"-15", the same from 16"-24", then the Firewarriors win at 25"-30", then the drones can shoot from 31-48". So, given the drones' increased survivability and mobility, maybe I'd call it a wash?
On an absolute level, they are more durable (T4 instead of T3, -1 to hit if not closest), but for their points, they are either equally durable or significantly less durable (unless the model firing at you is a BS5+ shooter, so basically Orks and Conscripts).
Example1: a set of 10 lasguns fire at each target outside of Rapid Fire range with a BS of 4+.
Vs Firewarriors: 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/2 fail save. 1/8 * 10 shots = 1.25 dead Firewarriors (10 points)
Vs Sniper Drones: 1/3 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/2 fail save. 1/18*10 shots = 5/9 dead Sniper Drones (10 points)
Example 2: A set of 10 boltguns fire at each target outside of RF range with a BS3+
Vs Firewarriors: 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 1/2 fail save. 2/9 * 10 shots = 2.22 dead firearriors (roughly 18 points)
Vs Sniper Drones: 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/2 fail saves. 1/8 *10 shots = 1.25 dead Sniper Drones (22.5 points)
Example 3: 5 Plasmaguns fire at each target outside of Rapid Fire range with a BS of 3+
Vs Firewarriors: 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/1 fail saves. 5/9 *10 shots = 5.55 dead firewarriors (roughly 44 points)
vs Sniper Drones: 1/2 hit, 2/3 wound, 1/1 fail saves. 1/3 *10 shots = 3.33 dead Snipers (roughly 60 points)
Replace the first Example with Conscript BS of 5+, and you finally see Sniper Drones have greater durability than Fire Warriors for their points! Wow! Amazing!
They are slightly more mobile and have fly. Ain't getting it past the lid of the Dumpster Fire it currently is in, though.
Except that that requires the additional points investment of the Marksman to increase their BS to 4+. So...hmmm.
Basically. You can keep pretending they're an efficient source of not-aimed-at-hidden-characters dakka, but you're gonna have a hard time convincing anyone in the face of the clear math you face.
What if you already have a drone controller and marksmen for other reasons? If you would still have them without the sniper drones I wouldn’t count them as an extra cost.
Some of us already take that marksmen without sniper drones as the marksmen is a great way to start a markerlight chain with 3+ hit and although 3 pathfinders are a little better for maker hits the marksmen has massively more survivability with its 2+ save and character so hard to target.
So if you happen to already have a missile pod commander with a drone controller or broadside with drone controller for your other drone units those snipers are now hitting on 3+ without extra cost. Hitting on 3+ at long range sounds better to me then having a squad of firewarriors sitting outside of range doing nothing.
Saying all this I am still not convinced sniper drones are worthwhile its just under certain circumstances I don’t count the marksmen +drone controller as extra cost. I guess as well technically the marksmen’s boosts the Firewarriors with that +1 reroll. Personally for now I am only taking snipers in my themed stealth list.
Any comparison of Sniper Drones vs Strike Teams needs to include the effects of Pulse Accelerator Drones and Cadre Fireblades.
And generally, on most tables 48" range is overkill for anti-infantry firepower, which is what Sniper Drones are. If you need to shoot something 48" away, it's probably pretty tough.
This is why Krootox Riders are so much better.48" S7 AP-1 D3 for 34 points is way, way better than 2 Sniper Drones (though I personally think Krootox Riders don't compare well against Crisis Suits, unless range is your only consideration).
All that said, Sniper Drones are still the only thing the Tau have to shoot characters, and there are still armies that might be useful against (Astra Militarium, Eldar), but let's hope they get buffed (Mortal Wounds on a 6+ wound roll, for example) in the Tau Codex.
Alcibiades wrote: Just for the hell of it, I'm going to try sticking a unit of 6 sniper drones near a broadside with a drone controller and see how they do.
So you're teaming up two of our most over costed units? Sounds like a plan!
Right, back to Hammerheads. I can see the heavy burst cannon being a legitimate option. That's a fairly impressive amount of firepower hitting on 2s (because I'd never delve into Hammerheads without Longstrike). We're not exactly light on mid-strength firepower, but it's worth a look. It's also another reason why Riptides are awful.
So if you happen to already have a missile pod commander with a drone controller
Missile Pods are so expensive and lose so much effectiveness without ATS, please don't do this!
Not to mention that any weapon used at a Commander's high BS is more effective than improving Drone Shooting.
DC on HRR Broadside is fine, but use your other DCs on a Crisis Suit with Plasma Rifles/Fusion Blaster or Stealth Suits.
A commander with missile pods and DC is the cheapest long range unit I can think off that can sit in the deployment zone, shoot at long range and still boost all the drones. Stealth Suits are to short range and wasted in your deployment zone (unless someone deep strikes). Broadsides or Crisis cost more pts I would rather spend in other areas.
Anyway I prefer to play themed lists over perfectly optimized lists as its meant to be a fun game not pure maths and effectiveness. Generally speaking I pick a theme and build around it although I do like to know the maths and effectiveness but that comes 2nd to the theme. My last lists I took a squad of marker drones over pathfinders as the pathfinders broke the mechanized theme.
My next game will most likely have a Riptide even though its not the best choice.
Played a few games today with two max squads of gun drones with some markers, fireblade and 3 stealth suits with dc supporting them. The amount of shots they get at 9' is insane. At one point i had 80 shots on overwatch with supporting fire. I mixed in some flamer suits with them and they all did very well. Used them to block deepstrikers and any that did manage get in was dead next turn.
For 8pts you get 4 shots or 6 with fireblade, t4, 4+ save, fly, 8' move and with support bs 4+ and can tank mortal wounds on suits. I think i need more!
9 d6 flamers are great and put opponents off charging with that many dice. Gave vespids a try as well, nice harassment unit, and very fast for jumping on objectives or tying up vehicles.
So if you happen to already have a missile pod commander with a drone controller
Missile Pods are so expensive and lose so much effectiveness without ATS, please don't do this!
Not to mention that any weapon used at a Commander's high BS is more effective than improving Drone Shooting.
DC on HRR Broadside is fine, but use your other DCs on a Crisis Suit with Plasma Rifles/Fusion Blaster or Stealth Suits.
A commander with missile pods and DC is the cheapest long range unit I can think off that can sit in the deployment zone, shoot at long range and still boost all the drones. Stealth Suits are to short range and wasted in your deployment zone (unless someone deep strikes). Broadsides or Crisis cost more pts I would rather spend in other areas.
Anyway I prefer to play themed lists over perfectly optimized lists as its meant to be a fun game not pure maths and effectiveness. Generally speaking I pick a theme and build around it although I do like to know the maths and effectiveness but that comes 2nd to the theme. My last lists I took a squad of marker drones over pathfinders as the pathfinders broke the mechanized theme.
My next game will most likely have a Riptide even though its not the best choice.
XV9 with two of the pulse submunition rifles + a drone controller. Much cheaper than a commander.
What do people think about the kroot shaper? Was thinking I'd try him out, as he is fairly cheap and the re-roll ones to wound for kroot in combination with a marker hit to get them re-rolling ones to hit, doesn't seem awful.
20 kroot and a shaper is only 151 pts, so not breaking the bank.
Hey guys just letting you know you now get 4 kroot hounds in the $24 pack straight from GW on the website. Guess they were getting poor sales, wonder why...
Crusaderobr wrote: Hey guys just letting you know you now get 4 kroot hounds in the $24 pack straight from GW on the website. Guess they were getting poor sales, wonder why...
Finally got around to trying out triple flamer crisis suits.
Wow. I'm sure that it helped that I was playing against Tyranids, but those suits were crazy effective. Even if I never would've gotten to use them in the shooting phase (which I did at least twice before they died), they are still worth it for the charge deterrent against your commanders. Not to mention you can load 3 of them up with 6 drones to give to your commanders to munch more wounds.
Definitely a solid investment. I did not have high expectations for them, despite reading positive things on this thread. Happy to be proven incorrect!
Suks wrote: Finally got around to trying out triple flamer crisis suits.
Wow. I'm sure that it helped that I was playing against Tyranids, but those suits were crazy effective. Even if I never would've gotten to use them in the shooting phase (which I did at least twice before they died), they are still worth it for the charge deterrent against your commanders. Not to mention you can load 3 of them up with 6 drones to give to your commanders to munch more wounds.
Definitely a solid investment. I did not have high expectations for them, despite reading positive things on this thread. Happy to be proven incorrect!
Well - they have amazing overwatch - however - a commander with 4 cib is going to do more damage on average and doesn't need to be suicidal range to do damage - he also is very effective vs practically everything. He is also about 50 points cheaper. Being a character also makes him really hard to kill when surrounded by drones.
xmbk wrote: I've run multiple Kroot and Hounds, Shapers are almost a must.
Has anyone run a disc Ethereal to babysit drones? Seems he could also help with forward Kroot.
I have. It is good for the moral boost but not much else. But the drones do get to sacrifice for the drone etherial if he is on his disk.
I have thought about running a foot etherial, Fire Blade and 2 squads of 5 drones in a Devil Fish.
Also Shapers are useless compared to having an etherial on a disk with Kroot.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Have a game comping up and I have thought about running a devilfish, with the 2 5-man gun drone squads, fire-blade, and an etherial inside.
The Drones and fireblade are obvious but this still lacks solid leadership for the drones and will likely lose the whole unit after a couple of failed armor saves. This is where the etherial comes in to give additional Leadership and assault value depending how close i disembark
Suks wrote: Finally got around to trying out triple flamer crisis suits.
Wow. I'm sure that it helped that I was playing against Tyranids, but those suits were crazy effective. Even if I never would've gotten to use them in the shooting phase (which I did at least twice before they died), they are still worth it for the charge deterrent against your commanders. Not to mention you can load 3 of them up with 6 drones to give to your commanders to munch more wounds.
Definitely a solid investment. I did not have high expectations for them, despite reading positive things on this thread. Happy to be proven incorrect!
Well - they have amazing overwatch - however - a commander with 4 cib is going to do more damage on average and doesn't need to be suicidal range to do damage - he also is very effective vs practically everything. He is also about 50 points cheaper. Being a character also makes him really hard to kill when surrounded by drones.
Why does the cib do more damage against standard troops? 31.5 S4 hits beats 10 S7/-1 against pretty much any troop in the game, esp the hordes it's designed to face. Plus much better Overwatch, which is even more effective with Fly.
Not really a tactics question, but this is probably the best place to find a good concentration of Tau players.
Is anyone still using the old Battlesuits? (I'd assume many people are). With the old battlesuits, the commander was just another XV8 with very little to differentiate him from the other suits in the army. Does anyone still use a standard XV8 to represent their commander? And do those people run into problems with opponents not liking that?
This seems especially pertinent to me now that commanders are the new hotness. I was just wondering what other peoples experience with this has been.
Suks wrote: Finally got around to trying out triple flamer crisis suits.
Wow. I'm sure that it helped that I was playing against Tyranids, but those suits were crazy effective. Even if I never would've gotten to use them in the shooting phase (which I did at least twice before they died), they are still worth it for the charge deterrent against your commanders. Not to mention you can load 3 of them up with 6 drones to give to your commanders to munch more wounds.
Definitely a solid investment. I did not have high expectations for them, despite reading positive things on this thread. Happy to be proven incorrect!
Well - they have amazing overwatch - however - a commander with 4 cib is going to do more damage on average and doesn't need to be suicidal range to do damage - he also is very effective vs practically everything. He is also about 50 points cheaper. Being a character also makes him really hard to kill when surrounded by drones.
Why does the cib do more damage against standard troops? 31.5 S4 hits beats 10 S7/-1 against pretty much any troop in the game, esp the hordes it's designed to face. Plus much better Overwatch, which is even more effective with Fly.
Not to mention, if the squad gets shot at with a D6 damage weapon ( las, melta etc ) and there are no drones left, you clean up 1 Crisis suit instead of a commander.
xmbk wrote: Why does the cib do more damage against standard troops? 31.5 S4 hits beats 10 S7/-1 against pretty much any troop in the game, esp the hordes it's designed to face. Plus much better Overwatch, which is even more effective with Fly.
So it's a Trade
CIB Better vs MEQ Better vs TEQ Better vs Tanks
Basically Good at shooting everything in the game
Significantly safer shooting range
Can shoot normally from Deep Strike
Flamer
Better vs GEQ and other Light Spam
Better during Overwatch
xmbk wrote: Why does the cib do more damage against standard troops? 31.5 S4 hits beats 10 S7/-1 against pretty much any troop in the game, esp the hordes it's designed to face. Plus much better Overwatch, which is even more effective with Fly.
So it's a Trade
CIB Better vs MEQ Better vs TEQ Better vs Tanks
Basically Good at shooting everything in the game
Significantly safer shooting range
Can shoot normally from Deep Strike
Flamer
Better vs GEQ and other Light Spam
Better during Overwatch
The Commander is using a ML token at minimum, so you should factor in the minimum of 16 points to get that average result to avoid stacking the deck in favor of the Commander (which is, after all, already so heavily stacked in its favor).
Even with that taken into account, the CIB is still generally a better and more versatile tool except against GEQ or during Overwatch, I'd imagine (for gaks and giggles, how does a ML-less CIB commander compare to a TriFlamer suit when targetting flyers?).
The Commander is using a ML token at minimum, so you should factor in the minimum of 16 points to get that average result to avoid stacking the deck in favor of the Commander (which is, after all, already so heavily stacked in its favor).
Even with that taken into account, the CIB is still generally a better and more versatile tool except against GEQ or during Overwatch, I'd imagine (for gaks and giggles, how does a ML-less CIB commander compare to a TriFlamer suit when targetting flyers?).
Asura Varuna wrote: Not really a tactics question, but this is probably the best place to find a good concentration of Tau players.
Is anyone still using the old Battlesuits? (I'd assume many people are).
With the old battlesuits, the commander was just another XV8 with very little to differentiate him from the other suits in the army.
Does anyone still use a standard XV8 to represent their commander?
And do those people run into problems with opponents not liking that?
This seems especially pertinent to me now that commanders are the new hotness. I was just wondering what other peoples experience with this has been.
I got a friend that uses old Crisis suits as they are but uses the new ones as Commanders. Anyway, you are free to use those old models if you wish, just make sure you got the right sized base for them.
This is kinda of fine as Burst Cannons are really good against GEQ, but things get complicated quick when discussing MEQ.
You're right that the Burst Cannon is marginally more efficient than a CIB.
However, it's deviation is worse. Mainly because you have insignificant chances of hitting very high number wounds that the bulk of wounds CIB causes is more likely.
Either way, against MEQ; CIB and Burst Cannons are about equivalent.
As we get softer and softer, Burst Cannons start to pull ahead. If we get tankier CIB pull ahead.
Since you can't change weapons mid battle, CIB continues it's advantage of versatility.
Altho something to remember about MEQ, is that they can very easily become TEQ by sneaking onto cover.
xmbk wrote: Why does the cib do more damage against standard troops? 31.5 S4 hits beats 10 S7/-1 against pretty much any troop in the game, esp the hordes it's designed to face. Plus much better Overwatch, which is even more effective with Fly.
So it's a Trade
CIB Better vs MEQ Better vs TEQ Better vs Tanks
Basically Good at shooting everything in the game
Significantly safer shooting range
Can shoot normally from Deep Strike
Flamer
Better vs GEQ and other Light Spam
Better during Overwatch
You aren't addressing the original post, which compared a commander to a unit of flamers. You also shouldn't be using unit cost in your calculations, as that also was addressed.
As an aside, I think you overly rely on numbers, and I say this as a mathematician. It can be fine for quantifying loadouts, but it's a mistake to ignore or generalize differences between units (wounds, range, saves, tactical role). Nothing wrong with crunching a few numbers, but it's not the bottom line you make it out to be.
I think you guys are missing the point on the flamer crisis suits.
I'm not arguing that they have a better damage output than commanders. Obviously commanders are top performers in the damage output section. What they do is:
1. Bring another 6 drones (for a squad of 3) for your commanders to munch.
2. Prevent T1 T2 charges against valuable commanders.
3. Clean up bubble wrap.
I'm not sure what your opponents are, but there are many times that I cannot get within 18" of high value targets. If you go 2nd, its near impossible, but even if you go first with infiltrators and scout moves it is still extremely difficult. All they have to do is get their bubble wraps 9" away from their high priority units.
So the whole point of bringing the crisis suits is to augment the commanders with a unit that cover their weakness. To clean up chaff as well as donate a lot more drones to your alpha strike commnaders for when you decide to let the crisis suits die.
Suks wrote: I think you guys are missing the point on the flamer crisis suits.
I'm not arguing that they have a better damage output than commanders. Obviously commanders are top performers in the damage output section. What they do is:
1. Bring another 6 drones (for a squad of 3) for your commanders to munch.
2. Prevent T1 T2 charges against valuable commanders.
3. Clean up bubble wrap.
I'm not sure what your opponents are, but there are many times that I cannot get within 18" of high value targets. If you go 2nd, its near impossible, but even if you go first with infiltrators and scout moves it is still extremely difficult. All they have to do is get their bubble wraps 9" away from their high priority units.
So the whole point of bringing the crisis suits is to augment the commanders with their weakness. To clean up chaff as well as donate a lot more drones to your alpha strike commnaders for when you decide to let the crisis suits die.
Never said flamer suits are bad - just that you could supplement them with a CIB commander and it will work better can cheaper most of the time. Unless the enemy has 120 termagants.
I guess if you are throwing commanders around as suicide units bringing around another suicide unit with good over-watch isn't a bad idea. That's not how I play though. I surround lots of commanders with lots of drones and just blast the most threatening thing in range - if I need to reach out and hit something - that's what long-strike and hammerheads are for - and if I really need be I can just hold a fusion commander in reserve and blast a hole in a bubble wrap with insane gun-drone fire.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Finger wrote: I prefere Full burst over CIB or ACIB even on MEQ
Hey guys, we're having a struggle on the french forum with the Cadre Fireblade ability. Does it give you an extra shot or an extra attack? In english it's extra shot, which bring you to believe you get to shoot twice, meaning using the weapon's profile twice. But in french it's an extra attack, meaning you just add one attack to the weapon's use.
It's always been one additional shot, as in, a gun drone would typically get four shots, but with the Fireblade, would get 5. I know that "shot" technically means the whole profile, but GW never pays attention to semantics within their own rules and is uniquely terrible at clarifying stuff like this. I've been playing it just one extra shell essentially.
ALSO, I would like some help refining this list against Guard for a NOVA format battle tomorrow:
The gun drones and Fireblade pile into the Devilfish and operate near the Burst Commanders to thin down his conscript hordes (I know he'll have a few, but fwiw I think this is a good TAC concept anyway).
The CIB Commanders will operate behind the Y'Vahras. I think the biggest problem with this whole thing will be me wiping out targets within 18" and thus being left with nothing to shoot at. This is such a big problem in my mind I'm considering trading an Y'Vahra for a R'Varna, who can sling pulse cannon salvos in the back unperturbed by range issues.
I think that I would swap 1 commander for fusion just to be ready to pop his armor when you push a hole in the conscripts. Flamer crisis also good, but that is going to be hard to squeeze in with 2 y'vahras.
I'm not a math guy, but I thought I while back CIBs were proven to be better than fusion against virtually everything, including tanks? At least with an overcharge...I could be wrong.
A fair point, although (and again, I'm not a math guy either, so maybe this is wrong) I believe all of the math done compares damage per point spent, which is not the same as damage output per turn.
CIB may well be more point efficient, but they are not going to be as likely to take out a priority target in a single turn. This is why I think it is nice to have at least 1 fusion. When you need it dead NOW vs when you need it dead eventually.
Also, you have no marker and no multi trackers, so when you overcharge you will be taking mortal wounds. Not the biggest deal, but at some point you will start needing to munch drones at a faster rate than normal.
The Shrike wrote: I'm not a math guy, but I thought I while back CIBs were proven to be better than fusion against virtually everything, including tanks? At least with an overcharge...I could be wrong.
No. A Quad Fusion commander significantly out performs a Triple CIB w/ ATS (ACIB) against T5 and higher multi wound units. Fusion will do 5.83 wounds against T8 3+ and 7.8 wounds against T7 3+. Against T5 3+ 3 wound models, the fusion does 6.7 wounds on average. This is all outside of 9".
Conversely, the ACIB when OC will do 3.33 wounds against T8 3+ and 4.4 wounds against T7 3+. Against T5 3+ 3 wound models, the ACIB does 4.4 wounds on average.
Against 5+ Toughness multi-wound models, the fusion is significantly more point efficient option.
Haechi wrote: Hey guys, we're having a struggle on the french forum with the Cadre Fireblade ability. Does it give you an extra shot or an extra attack? In english it's extra shot, which bring you to believe you get to shoot twice, meaning using the weapon's profile twice. But in french it's an extra attack, meaning you just add one attack to the weapon's use.
How are you guys reading into it?
In English, the term "shot" is used inconsistently in the core rulebook (it is used in the "shot = a shooting of a weapon's attacks" and "shot = attack", but also states that shots may be split among targets but attacks may never be split), so its technically unclear, but I think most RAI points towards it being an extra attack per weapon. Given that French uses the term "attack", I would say that RAI is even more bolstered than before (I'd still like a FAQ, but mostly because I prefer tight language in rule making - blame my profession).
Shrike is wrong that its just a single extra attack per model, though: Instead, the wording makes clear that the rule grants an extra shot per weapon, not an extra shot per model. Regardless of what "shot" actually means.
Regarding the Fusion vs CIB efficiency, I refer everyone to this series of charts which pretty clearly demonstrates point-per-damage-inflicted efficiency against a wide variety of targets.
General gist: an Overcharged CIB is roughly analogous to a non-half-range Fusion weapon against the tougher targets (unless that target has a really good invulnerable save), is outperformed by the Fusion when the fusion is within half-range, and has decent to excellent performance against just about every other target in the game (compared to the fusion, which is pretty much only efficient against high T good save multiwound models).
If you want a bit of versatility but still have enough vehicle stopping power when it matters the most, I don't see why you couldn't just go with 2 Fusion and 2 CIB: Versatile when it has to be, but nearly as good as QFC at popping most vehicles and capable of taking on a more diverse set of enemies.
The Shrike wrote: Happy to be wrong! So 6 shots per drone when buffed?
At least!
If you're a WAAC douchwaffle, you might actually, seriously argue with your opponent to give you the "extra shot = extra shooting of the weapon" interpretation and get 8 shots at less than 9", but then you're a WAAC douchwaffle, so you won't actually get to play all that often.
(Its still fun to argue the rule on forums and the like, of course, because I'm a rules-lawyer douchwaffle, but as long as I'm not that way in person and in game, I still seem to find players to play against! )
Asura Varuna wrote: Not really a tactics question, but this is probably the best place to find a good concentration of Tau players.
Is anyone still using the old Battlesuits? (I'd assume many people are).
With the old battlesuits, the commander was just another XV8 with very little to differentiate him from the other suits in the army.
Does anyone still use a standard XV8 to represent their commander?
And do those people run into problems with opponents not liking that?
This seems especially pertinent to me now that commanders are the new hotness. I was just wondering what other peoples experience with this has been.
I got a friend that uses old Crisis suits as they are but uses the new ones as Commanders. Anyway, you are free to use those old models if you wish, just make sure you got the right sized base for them.
The only commander model I have is one of the old ones with the metal upgrade bits, and its base is the same size as the regular crisis suits. What size base should the commander have?
Asura Varuna wrote: Not really a tactics question, but this is probably the best place to find a good concentration of Tau players.
Is anyone still using the old Battlesuits? (I'd assume many people are).
With the old battlesuits, the commander was just another XV8 with very little to differentiate him from the other suits in the army.
Does anyone still use a standard XV8 to represent their commander?
And do those people run into problems with opponents not liking that?
This seems especially pertinent to me now that commanders are the new hotness. I was just wondering what other peoples experience with this has been.
I got a friend that uses old Crisis suits as they are but uses the new ones as Commanders. Anyway, you are free to use those old models if you wish, just make sure you got the right sized base for them.
The only commander model I have is one of the old ones with the metal upgrade bits, and its base is the same size as the regular crisis suits. What size base should the commander have?
Regarding base size, didn't GW used to have a rule (perhaps an unofficial one) that you simply had to use the base that they model was supplied with to be legal? Perhaps that was an ITC thing, but I remember that rule being from somewhere. No idea if its around still or not, but if it is, then the 40mm it originally came with should be fine.
I could be totally wrong of course, hopefully my memory hasn't completely betrayed me.
Then again, you've put a flamer on an expensive BS2 suit that is limited to two guns and ins't very impressive to begin with-for a trick that only works if the charging unit is within 8" of the XV84 itself.
Fusion is a little better outside half range compared to CIB
The difference between the 2 is that Fusion is generally bad at larger number of targets while CIB is comfortable at shooting at everything in the game.
Fusion Commanders are still our best anti tank, and every list should include at LEAST 1. If not more. This is coming from a player who personally has a strong bias towards CIB, but even I need to acknowledge the importance of the Fusion Blaster.
How would you suggest spending 80 points if you're specifically trying to make your opponent's anti-tank weaponry useless and you've already maxed out on fire warriors, drones, and pathfinders?
Lord Ruby34 wrote: How would you suggest spending 80 points if you're specifically trying to make your opponent's anti-tank weaponry useless and you've already maxed out on fire warriors, drones, and pathfinders?
Lord Ruby34 wrote: How would you suggest spending 80 points if you're specifically trying to make your opponent's anti-tank weaponry useless and you've already maxed out on fire warriors, drones, and pathfinders?
-1CP to get more drones?
Right, sorry. I meant I ran out of drone, pathfinder, and fire warrior models.
Lord Ruby34 wrote: How would you suggest spending 80 points if you're specifically trying to make your opponent's anti-tank weaponry useless and you've already maxed out on fire warriors, drones, and pathfinders?
-1CP to get more drones?
You can spend command points to get more drones? This I didnt know.
Lord Ruby34 wrote: How would you suggest spending 80 points if you're specifically trying to make your opponent's anti-tank weaponry useless and you've already maxed out on fire warriors, drones, and pathfinders?
-1CP to get more drones?
You can spend command points to get more drones? This I didnt know.
The Auxiliary Support Detachment. It's a detachment that consists of a single unit of any type (minus Lords of War) and has the Comand Benefit of -1 CP, similar to how a Battalion detachment gives you +3 CP, but this one takes away CP instead. Basically allowing you to squeeze in that last unit that you couldn't fit into your list at the cost of losing a CP from your pool that you otherwise would have.
Lord Ruby34 wrote: How would you suggest spending 80 points if you're specifically trying to make your opponent's anti-tank weaponry useless and you've already maxed out on fire warriors, drones, and pathfinders?
-1CP to get more drones?
You can spend command points to get more drones? This I didnt know.
The Auxiliary Support Detachment. It's a detachment that consists of a single unit of any type (minus Lords of War) and has the Comand Benefit of -1 CP, similar to how a Battalion detachment gives you +3 CP, but this one takes away CP instead. Basically allowing you to squeeze in that last unit that you couldn't fit into your list at the cost of losing a CP from your pool that you otherwise would have.
This is where the rulebook has me confused. In a Vanguard detachment there are extra slots greyed out. Can I take a fast attack in one of the greyed out slots or do I have to take this Auxiliary detachment for 1 fast attack slot?
The red slots are mandatory, while the gray ones are optional. Auxiliary detachments are just a way to take more stuff over the top of your existing detachment if you can't otherwise figure out a way to fit that slot in.
MilkmanAl wrote: The red slots are mandatory, while the gray ones are optional. Auxiliary detachments are just a way to take more stuff over the top of your existing detachment if you can't otherwise figure out a way to fit that slot in.
Oh thank goodness. So the greyed out slots work then. excellent. Why would anyone take an auxiliary? I cant really think of an army that would run out of slots except maybe IGlol.
I think once codexs are out you will only get army bonus if all from the same codex so then you take auxiliary to keep them.
Thou we don't have other armys to take from
Oldmike wrote: I think once codexs are out you will only get army bonus if all from the same codex so then you take auxiliary to keep them.
Thou we don't have other armys to take from
I hope for a lot more than that from the Tau codex, especially after the current "public beta test" is over with.
Had a game vs IG last night. He took lots of vehicles ( artillery, 3 russes, 2 chimera) and 4 squads of stormtroopers. Ended up being a close game at 2 objs. to 1.
Any thoughts on dealing with their artillery and tanks? And yes I had two fusion commanders.
FirePainter wrote: Had a game vs IG last night. He took lots of vehicles ( artillery, 3 russes, 2 chimera) and 4 squads of stormtroopers. Ended up being a close game at 2 objs. to 1.
Any thoughts on dealing with their artillery and tanks? And yes I had two fusion commanders.
Yeah I run 2 fusion commanders, a y'vahra, and a crisis team with 11 ion guns. Opening volley was poor on my part only got a chimera down to 1 wound and only did 4 to one of the russes.
Board was hammer and anvil so my y'vahra wasn't in range til turn 2. I am thinking I should have waited to bring my commanders in on 2 instead on turn 1.
To be more clear I only brought in my commanders turn 1. I kept my 4 ion suits in reserve waiting for his stormtroopers. So looking back my attack was pretty piecemeal.
I think I should have waited and brought everything in on turn 2 instead of how I did it.
That said there could be something in dropping a juicy bait commander if you know the other person is hiding equally juicy reserves. Lure it out so you can drop you other suits on top of them. Maybe?
I actually played a game against a fairly mech guard list as well (a bit of a smattering of everything, LRs, Hellhounds, Basilisks, and Tauroxes). I actually had surprisngly great success with Breachers of all things. 20 S6 AP -2 shots, especially with a bit of ML support, shreds light and medium armor. They crippled a Hellhound and Taurox on their own, plus shredding infantry (which is what I brought them to do). Obviously not the premier anti-armor unit in our army, but if you plan on running a battalion detachment or taking some troops, I highly suggest Breachers in Devilfish. Breachers are a threat to everything on the board, and anything they don't kill on the first volley you charge with the Devilfish right after. Either they fall back and their tank is useless for a turn, or they stay in CC with you and on your turn you Fly away and rinse it with another round of shooting.
GI_Redshirt wrote: I actually played a game against a fairly mech guard list as well (a bit of a smattering of everything, LRs, Hellhounds, Basilisks, and Tauroxes). I actually had surprisngly great success with Breachers of all things. 20 S6 AP -2 shots, especially with a bit of ML support, shreds light and medium armor. They crippled a Hellhound and Taurox on their own, plus shredding infantry (which is what I brought them to do). Obviously not the premier anti-armor unit in our army, but if you plan on running a battalion detachment or taking some troops, I highly suggest Breachers in Devilfish. Breachers are a threat to everything on the board, and anything they don't kill on the first volley you charge with the Devilfish right after. Either they fall back and their tank is useless for a turn, or they stay in CC with you and on your turn you Fly away and rinse it with another round of shooting.
For extra lolz, put Darkstrider in there with them and hose that tank on 4+ to wound (unless it's a Land Raider or Leman Russ).
Just found out a Velocity Tracker effects the entire unit even if you only take 1. So a single Stealth team member can take a VT and the entire unit gets +1 to hitt against Jetbikes, Skimmers, Assault Marines and well anything with Fly.
Not sure I would bother with crisis teams but worth thinking about with Stealth Teams.
So assuming 65pts can be squeezed (or; spending the remaining 95ps elsewhere) which is better.
Context; got some marker light support and I'm already planning on fielding 1 XV109. And lots more gun drones.
Thoughts?
I'd say both are good options. I think the commanders might be a bit better but y'vahra are so good. Depends on the rest of your list and the opponents you expect.
Updated faqs are up. Shield drones get FNP, keywords fix for longstrike, broadsides can all take missile drones again, nerf to velocity tracker (only affects models now), and clarification on a few things.
FirePainter wrote: Updated faqs are up. Shield drones get FNP, keywords fix for longstrike, broadsides can all take missile drones again, nerf to velocity tracker (only affects models now), and clarification on a few things.
Also a huge note against pure flyer armies. They changed sudden death to say that flyers don't count as models on the table.
Makes Shield Drones somewhat useful as ablative wounds again, having a 4++/5+++ against direct wounds and a 5+ against Saviour Protocol, and other mortal, wounds. Whether that is worth the loss of firepower over taking gun drones though....
Shield Drones now have a 4+ Save, a 4+ Invulnerable Save, AND a 5+ FNP!
Brilliant!
Now... I'm fairly certain this is an incorrect position to have; but can a riptide pass a mortal wound over to a drone (ala ablative Heat Sink style) via Saviour Protocols, for Nova Reactor mortal wounds?
Shield Drones now have a 4+ Save, a 4+ Invulnerable Save, AND a 5+ FNP!
Brilliant!
Now... I'm fairly certain this is an incorrect position to have; but can a riptide pass a mortal wound over to a drone (ala ablative Heat Sink style) via Saviour Protocols, for Nova Reactor mortal wounds?
I would say no, as the Riptide is never "successfully wounded" it simply takes a mortal wound. However, you can give it the Stimulant Injector and ignore that on a 6+.
I am a bit sad to have VT nerf'd but it puts them in line with the rest of the support systems so its okay. They are still a really cheap way to get +1 on a lot of units.
Now that shield drones work, there is an excellent strat I will be trying out.
Take a triple fusion commander with the shield generator.
Take a 3 man Crisis Bodyguard team.
Take some shield drones.
Enemy shoots at the commander. 4+ inv vs high ap weapons.
If his 4+ inv fails, bodyguard takes a mortal on a 2+.
Pass it to shield drone. SG gets 5+ save.
Profit.
Enemy shoots at Bodyguard team, 1 is equipped with a SG. 4+ inv save vs high ap weapons.
Pass any wounds to SG. SG gets 5+ save.
Profit.
Crusaderobr wrote: Now that shield drones work, there is an excellent strat I will be trying out.
Take a triple fusion commander with the shield generator.
Take a 3 man Crisis Bodyguard team.
Take some shield drones.
Enemy shoots at the commander. 4+ inv vs high ap weapons.
If his 4+ inv fails, bodyguard takes a mortal on a 2+.
Pass it to shield drone. SG gets 5+ save.
Profit.
Enemy shoots at Bodyguard team, 1 is equipped with a SG. 4+ inv save vs high ap weapons.
Pass any wounds to SG. SG gets 5+ save.
Profit.
You don't pass wounds you failed saving, you pass the wounds before you save.
this is a very minor, but critical point.
Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3"
of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit
unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you
can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of
the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal
wound instead of the normal damage
This is a common mistake I see made all the time with most of the bodyguard units in different armies.
Successfully wounding, and then allocating the hits are very distinct steps in the combat resolution, and occur BEFORE you roll saves.
Don't get me wrong - shield drones are still awesome now - but they dont take saves we fail, they take hits we don't want to.
(which is for us better - a las cannon shot that can do six damage, only passes a single mortal wound).
in general, we have to be very careful in reading the new rules (at least there are only a few of them...). there are a lot of subtle nuances in there.
BoomWolf wrote: You want to troll the enemy? take a huge team of shield drones to camp objectives.
Its like "what you gonna do about it? invest mortal wounds on my 8 point models?"
Your enemy will just walk a Scout Squad up and claim the objective anyway. And your Shield Drones will do nothing about it. And as long as one Scout is alive, they will hold that objective.
Crusaderobr wrote: Now that shield drones work, there is an excellent strat I will be trying out.
Take a triple fusion commander with the shield generator.
Take a 3 man Crisis Bodyguard team.
Take some shield drones.
Enemy shoots at the commander. 4+ inv vs high ap weapons.
If his 4+ inv fails, bodyguard takes a mortal on a 2+.
Pass it to shield drone. SG gets 5+ save.
Profit.
Enemy shoots at Bodyguard team, 1 is equipped with a SG. 4+ inv save vs high ap weapons.
Pass any wounds to SG. SG gets 5+ save.
Profit.
You don't pass wounds you failed saving, you pass the wounds before you save.
this is a very minor, but critical point.
Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3"
of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit
unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you
can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of
the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal
wound instead of the normal damage
This is a common mistake I see made all the time with most of the bodyguard units in different armies.
Successfully wounding, and then allocating the hits are very distinct steps in the combat resolution, and occur BEFORE you roll saves.
Don't get me wrong - shield drones are still awesome now - but they dont take saves we fail, they take hits we don't want to.
(which is for us better - a las cannon shot that can do six damage, only passes a single mortal wound).
in general, we have to be very careful in reading the new rules (at least there are only a few of them...). there are a lot of subtle nuances in there.
Ah my bad, you are correct. Allocating a wound normally assigned to a commander/crisis suit is still great on a shield drone though. Also, the bodyguards will function the way I described if someone shoots the commander, so you can take a 4+ inv save on the commander, and if he fails, a bodyguard can intercept and take the mortal wound. Handy when you run out of drones to allocate to, or if you would rather take a wound to the bodyguard instead of the commander.
BoomWolf wrote: You want to troll the enemy? take a huge team of shield drones to camp objectives.
Its like "what you gonna do about it? invest mortal wounds on my 8 point models?"
Your enemy will just walk a Scout Squad up and claim the objective anyway. And your Shield Drones will do nothing about it. And as long as one Scout is alive, they will hold that objective.
Did you miss the 'huge' word? Drones can take objectives now. Objectives are taken by the player with more models within 3" of their center; drones are cheaper than scouts.
Edit: just saw winter SEO SM codex review... SM troops have 'objective secured'-like ability. Ugh.
Hm... bubble wrap!
Crusaderobr wrote: Now that shield drones work, there is an excellent strat I will be trying out.
Take a triple fusion commander with the shield generator.
Take a 3 man Crisis Bodyguard team.
Take some shield drones.
Enemy shoots at the commander. 4+ inv vs high ap weapons.
If his 4+ inv fails, bodyguard takes a mortal on a 2+.
Pass it to shield drone. SG gets 5+ save.
Profit.
Enemy shoots at Bodyguard team, 1 is equipped with a SG. 4+ inv save vs high ap weapons.
Pass any wounds to SG. SG gets 5+ save.
Profit.
You don't pass wounds you failed saving, you pass the wounds before you save.
this is a very minor, but critical point.
Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3"
of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit
unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you
can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of
the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal
wound instead of the normal damage
This is a common mistake I see made all the time with most of the bodyguard units in different armies.
Successfully wounding, and then allocating the hits are very distinct steps in the combat resolution, and occur BEFORE you roll saves.
Don't get me wrong - shield drones are still awesome now - but they dont take saves we fail, they take hits we don't want to.
(which is for us better - a las cannon shot that can do six damage, only passes a single mortal wound).
in general, we have to be very careful in reading the new rules (at least there are only a few of them...). there are a lot of subtle nuances in there.
Ah my bad, you are correct. Allocating a wound normally assigned to a commander/crisis suit is still great on a shield drone though. Also, the bodyguards will function the way I described if someone shoots the commander, so you can take a 4+ inv save on the commander, and if he fails, a bodyguard can intercept and take the mortal wound. Handy when you run out of drones to allocate to, or if you would rather take a wound to the bodyguard instead of the commander.
Absolutely! Awesome idea with the bodyguards - they look like they take the entire hit, regardless of the number of wounds - so a las cannon that does 5 points turns into a single mortal wound on the bodyguard. Also, considering they are slightly better stats than crisis, sounds like a good replacement.
Watching winter SEO's SM codex review, I've noticed some units have decreased in points (some more than 10). So, I'm hopeful we'll see serious point changes among our units with our codex!
I'm wondering if the new Shield Drone ability, since it affects any shielded drone and not just the basic ones, makes the Riptide's Shielded Missile Drones worthwhile. I think maybe it would if Riptides weren't so god-awful expensive. Although I'm still thinking of taking mine with HBC and SMS. Might have to give it a try in a non-competitive game at least.
Vector Strike wrote: Watching winter SEO's SM codex review, I've noticed some units have decreased in points (some more than 10). So, I'm hopeful we'll see serious point changes among our units with our codex!
It's literally the Riptide's only hope, but anything less than a 50pt reduction probably won't make much difference.
Has anyome given Piranhas a try? They seem to have a similar damage output as XV25s, but can't take the ATS. Guess that'd make the FB better than the BC on them, as if your after more S5 you may as well take the suits unless I'm wrong?
No, the mortal wound for activating the nova reactor cannot be allocated per the FAQ.
Pages 53, 56, 57, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73 and 74 – Saviour Protocols Change this rule to read: ‘ Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3" of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal wound instead of the normal damage.’
BoomWolf wrote: You want to troll the enemy? take a huge team of shield drones to camp objectives.
Its like "what you gonna do about it? invest mortal wounds on my 8 point models?"
Your enemy will just walk a Scout Squad up and claim the objective anyway. And your Shield Drones will do nothing about it. And as long as one Scout is alive, they will hold that objective.
I have a question: where is written that you can make the "fnp" 5+ roll aftr a mortal wound? Is a mortal wound a wound also?
How about running two Commanders, one with two Ion guns and two Burst cannons, the second with two Fusion blasters, ATS, and Shield generator; both with a gun drone and supporting a bunch of Kroot infantry? Higher values will add Stealth suits, but that will be another topic.
Mostly I am just trying to figure out Commander suit loads fir ganes 1000 points and under.
Well overcharged CIBs and fusion blasters have the same strength, so the toughness of the target isn't an issue.
But yes, fusion commanders do significantly more damage to big lumps, like vehicles. The CIB's worse AP and lower damage per hit really hurt it against anything with a good armour save. The difference is a bit less against things like knights that have invulnerables, meaning the FB's AP gets wasted.
The good thing about the CIB is the ability to chuck 9 shots into an infantry unit. But even that isn't actually much better - for instance if you wanted to remove Primaris marines from cover you'd be better off using the fusion blasters. Even if you do kill 6 guard or orks, that just isn't very impressive.
I'm also not sure why you'd bother with burst cannon commanders. I think it will always be better to take coldstars, and in any case S5 shooting is easily available in many other ways.
doc1234 wrote: Has anyome given Piranhas a try? They seem to have a similar damage output as XV25s, but can't take the ATS. Guess that'd make the FB better than the BC on them, as if your after more S5 you may as well take the suits unless I'm wrong?
Well, for 71 points, you get 6 wounds worth of T5, Save 4+, and 12 pulse shots with a really high movement and no morale issue at all.
Compare this to 72 pts of Fire Warriors, who are 9 wounds of T3, Sv 4+, getting 9 or 18 pulse shots, moving slowly and losing offense as they take wounds.
Or to 72 pts of Gun Drones, which would be 9 wounds of T4, Sv 4+, getting 36 (!) pulse shots and moving fairly fast but having to target the nearest thing and having serious morale problems.
It's a tricky question! Do you need raw firepower? Drones. Do you want range? Fire Warriors. Do you want backfield disruption? Piranha.
They all have about the same durability (drones somewhat worse due to morale), with firepower at least comparable, so it'll come down to playstyle.
Personally, I think Piranha always have a place as they fit a "bully" space well, letting them chase down models that lack heavy weapons and shove them around, disrupt firelanes by blocking LoS and movement (and can just fly off if charged), and engage in melee to tie up heavy weapon squads once a game or so.
8th is all about combined arms, so some fast disruptors along with gunlines and mobile troops helps make the salad bowl approach to winning an option.
(That said? I don't support the fusion version. They can't one-shot a tank and *absolutely* cannot survive the return fire. Stick to what they're good at: Pushing around weenies.)
Indeed. This is why we're comparing a commander with 4 fusion blasters against one with 3 CIBs and ATS.
As for piranhas, yeah I quite like the idea of them. I'm not sure I could make them do anything amazing but they are great little models so I'd like to.
Fusion tends to be within CC threat range and ATS helps you if you end up in CC. I am starting to use more ATS as it’s often beneficial to either charge into CC or let myself get charged, then on the turn after jump out and shoot, then recharge. The idea is let a few drones take the wounds, do some ok damage back from CC and deny the enemy from shooting you while you disengage and shoot back. Works really well against some targets.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Anyone anticipating a Commander nerf with the Tau Codex (whenever it comes out)? I had heard talk of reducing it's weapons options down to three.
You got a source on that? I could see a slight points increase on the Commander while our other suits (besides Stealth Suits) got a points decrease, but it wouldn't make much sense to drop weapon options down to 3 as that would be the same as regular Crisis Suits and Commanders explicitly wear a more advanced battlesuit than them.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Anyone anticipating a Commander nerf with the Tau Codex (whenever it comes out)? I had heard talk of reducing it's weapons options down to three.
You got a source on that? I could see a slight points increase on the Commander while our other suits (besides Stealth Suits) got a points decrease, but it wouldn't make much sense to drop weapon options down to 3 as that would be the same as regular Crisis Suits and Commanders explicitly wear a more advanced battlesuit than them.
Nothing specific, some chatter on Advanced Tau Tactica, and then some talk on Front Line Gaming's Podcast where Reece and Frankie were complaining about Commander spam and how powerful the model is. Those guys seem to have some kind of power when it comes to decision and balance making, and a hatred for Tau, so it doesn't seem completely crazy that a nerf is coming.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Anyone anticipating a Commander nerf with the Tau Codex (whenever it comes out)? I had heard talk of reducing it's weapons options down to three.
You got a source on that? I could see a slight points increase on the Commander while our other suits (besides Stealth Suits) got a points decrease, but it wouldn't make much sense to drop weapon options down to 3 as that would be the same as regular Crisis Suits and Commanders explicitly wear a more advanced battlesuit than them.
Maybe it would limit the weapons to 3, but a fourth option could be taken that isn't a weapon. So, 3 weapons and a support system. Which many commander builds already use.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Anyone anticipating a Commander nerf with the Tau Codex (whenever it comes out)? I had heard talk of reducing it's weapons options down to three.
You got a source on that? I could see a slight points increase on the Commander while our other suits (besides Stealth Suits) got a points decrease, but it wouldn't make much sense to drop weapon options down to 3 as that would be the same as regular Crisis Suits and Commanders explicitly wear a more advanced battlesuit than them.
Maybe it would limit the weapons to 3, but a fourth option could be taken that isn't a weapon. So, 3 weapons and a support system. Which many commander builds already use.
I've heard this also. Regardless, not going to be building my three Commander kits until the codex drops.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Anyone anticipating a Commander nerf with the Tau Codex (whenever it comes out)? I had heard talk of reducing it's weapons options down to three.
You got a source on that? I could see a slight points increase on the Commander while our other suits (besides Stealth Suits) got a points decrease, but it wouldn't make much sense to drop weapon options down to 3 as that would be the same as regular Crisis Suits and Commanders explicitly wear a more advanced battlesuit than them.
Maybe it would limit the weapons to 3, but a fourth option could be taken that isn't a weapon. So, 3 weapons and a support system. Which many commander builds already use.
I've heard this also. Regardless, not going to be building my three Commander kits until the codex drops.
That is wise. Although magnets are a good idea regardless of whether you build them now or later.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Anyone anticipating a Commander nerf with the Tau Codex (whenever it comes out)? I had heard talk of reducing it's weapons options down to three.
You got a source on that? I could see a slight points increase on the Commander while our other suits (besides Stealth Suits) got a points decrease, but it wouldn't make much sense to drop weapon options down to 3 as that would be the same as regular Crisis Suits and Commanders explicitly wear a more advanced battlesuit than them.
Nothing specific, some chatter on Advanced Tau Tactica, and then some talk on Front Line Gaming's Podcast where Reece and Frankie were complaining about Commander spam and how powerful the model is. Those guys seem to have some kind of power when it comes to decision and balance making, and a hatred for Tau, so it doesn't seem completely crazy that a nerf is coming.
I mean, without a legit source on it I would be very reticent on posting anything about this on any forum. Do we have any proof that the FLG guys have any input now? I'm well aware of how much they were involved in the playtesting for 8th, as well as the rumors of the anti-Tau sentiment they brought to the playtesting table during that time (which I still have yet to see real proof of), but do they have any input now? Given that ITC is already making house rules with regards to 8th (with regards to how deployment affects 1st turn and such) it seems like they don't have any real say anymore.
Not necessarily defending FLG and ITC here, I'm well aware of the evidence of their apparent anti-Tau bias, but I'm also very much against declaring that the team designing and testing 40k is against us. It breeds a victim mentality that is not healthy for the community as a whole. Unless there is actual evidence of it beyond forum chatter and people bitching and moaning on a podcast, let's refrain from using such stuff as proof that we have nerfs incoming. At least in this thread, no need for the chicken little mentality that dakka has a hard-on for spreading into this thread as well.
GI_Redshirt wrote: I mean, without a legit source on it I would be very reticent on posting anything about this on any forum. Do we have any proof that the FLG guys have any input now? I'm well aware of how much they were involved in the playtesting for 8th, as well as the rumors of the anti-Tau sentiment they brought to the playtesting table during that time (which I still have yet to see real proof of), but do they have any input now? Given that ITC is already making house rules with regards to 8th (with regards to how deployment affects 1st turn and such) it seems like they don't have any real say anymore.
Not necessarily defending FLG and ITC here, I'm well aware of the evidence of their apparent anti-Tau bias, but I'm also very much against declaring that the team designing and testing 40k is against us. It breeds a victim mentality that is not healthy for the community as a whole. Unless there is actual evidence of it beyond forum chatter and people bitching and moaning on a podcast, let's refrain from using such stuff as proof that we have nerfs incoming. At least in this thread, no need for the chicken little mentality that dakka has a hard-on for spreading into this thread as well.
Broadsides costing as much as they do isn't proof?
Even if they reduce commanders to 3 weapons, people will still use them.
They will solve this if they:
a- reduce Crisis cost
b- either improve Crisis BS or re-tool the markerlight table to let us get 2 +1 to hit results (or bring the +1 one to the third result instead of fifth).
Until they do a and b, people will keep using Commanders.
It's a similar situation of Tyranids back in 7th - very few good units and the rest were really bad stuff occupying pages in the codex/imperial armour.
---
Before nerfing the good stuff, turn the bad stuff good enough to compete with the good stuff. Our Commanders only help the army ONCE per game, and only ONE of them can do it. You need to pay for named folks to get another use of Kauyon of Mont'ka.
Had Commanders a re-roll failed to hit rolls of 1 aura (like most captain-like units do), we'd see a increase of backline commanders and commanders dropping with other stuff nearby (like they did back in 7th!).
Ishotfirst wrote: At this point with the addition of two more shots for the sun-shark is it worth putting onto the battlefield?
It could be worth while but you would never be able to over clock the guns without the marker light hit.
The Sun Shark's all about those bombs, I think. 10 infantry = 5 mortal wounds on average, dropped in the movement phase no less, so you can toss a reroll on one if needed.
That's savage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The series I'd do is:
Small reduction in Commander cost.
Larger reduction in Crisis cost.
But, Wak giveth, Wak taketh away.
All suits are limited to two (yes, two!) weapon options, with standard suits having room for 1 support system and commanders having room for 2 support systems.
This serves as a balancing factor, moving them towards a less spammy option but still giving them options. Their job moves from "OVERWHELMING FIREPOWER" to "Right tool at the right place at the right time".
Source or not, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see significant changes for Tau when the new codex appears. Just look at the marine book and all the changes that's making.
I've got no idea what the changes will be - only that they could be substantial. Septs, relics (or signature systems) and tons of stratagems will all make a massive difference. Points are certain to change as well.
The outcome of all of this is that I think it's a really bad time to spend money on Tau, or anyone else whose codex isn't out yet. Things are changing too fast right now. Imagine at all those people with £250 worth of storm ravens they probably haven't taken the wrapping off yet. Imagine if that was you with a stack of commanders in 6 months time.
The good news is that hopefully a lot of the issues in the current index list will be fixed. So don't melt your riptides down just yet, and maybe don't remortgage your house for forgeworld stuff.
It does mean that this discussion feels a bit redundant to me, for now. We can see which units are good today, but only for a few months.
Mandragola wrote: Source or not, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see significant changes for Tau when the new codex appears. Just look at the marine book and all the changes that's making.
I've got no idea what the changes will be - only that they could be substantial. Septs, relics (or signature systems) and tons of stratagems will all make a massive difference. Points are certain to change as well.
The outcome of all of this is that I think it's a really bad time to spend money on Tau, or anyone else whose codex isn't out yet. Things are changing too fast right now. Imagine at all those people with £250 worth of storm ravens they probably haven't taken the wrapping off yet. Imagine if that was you with a stack of commanders in 6 months time.
The good news is that hopefully a lot of the issues in the current index list will be fixed. So don't melt your riptides down just yet, and maybe don't remortgage your house for forgeworld stuff.
It does mean that this discussion feels a bit redundant to me, for now. We can see which units are good today, but only for a few months.
This is sound advice. I recently sent an email to GW with some of my concerns about the current ruleset for the Tau, but I don't expect anything except at least getting my voice heard.
Yeah, I was happy to see that points changes (both in PL ainda points per se) will happen in the codex. Also, it was good ours isn't one in the first batch, so the future FAQs will be already applied to the book
Mandragola wrote: Source or not, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see significant changes for Tau when the new codex appears. Just look at the marine book and all the changes that's making.
I've got no idea what the changes will be - only that they could be substantial. Septs, relics (or signature systems) and tons of stratagems will all make a massive difference. Points are certain to change as well.
The outcome of all of this is that I think it's a really bad time to spend money on Tau, or anyone else whose codex isn't out yet. Things are changing too fast right now. Imagine at all those people with £250 worth of storm ravens they probably haven't taken the wrapping off yet. Imagine if that was you with a stack of commanders in 6 months time.
The good news is that hopefully a lot of the issues in the current index list will be fixed. So don't melt your riptides down just yet, and maybe don't remortgage your house for forgeworld stuff.
It does mean that this discussion feels a bit redundant to me, for now. We can see which units are good today, but only for a few months.
I would agree with the sentiment on spending money, with the caveat that it depends on what you're buying. Buying 6 Commanders or as many Gun Drones as you can find is probably a bad idea. Buying more Fire Warriors or more battlesuits is probably ok. Although I do believe that we will be one of the last codices to be updated since we were one of the last major releases in 7th prior to Gathering Storm. Given that GW is refocusing 40k on to Imperium vs Chaos, I don't think its a stretch to assume that the Xenos faction that had one of the last major releases of the previous edition (with multiple new kits being released as well) is probably gonna be at the back of the line in terms of 8th updates.
I just bought 2 Commanders, 12 Crisis Suits, extra Drones off ebay, and 12 Stealth Suits for my 2000 point Tau army. I haven't seriously played 40k since 5th edition, and I used to play Eldar. I am not worried about codex change once the Tau dex hits, because everything will be magnetized. If your playing a Tau army and do not magnetize, then you need to build a different army. Seriously. There are just too many options, and things will change every single edition. Crisis suits in particular have so many different options you would be a fool to glue on those 2 CIB's and just forget about them.
I propose that we as a community rename this thread to " Magnetized Tau Tactica " and any other thread we speak about Tau, always refer to the army as " Magnetized Tau " therefore people who are new to 40k and are just getting started understand what they need to do if they decide to build Tau. Save the noobs.
doc1234 wrote: Has anyome given Piranhas a try? They seem to have a similar damage output as XV25s, but can't take the ATS. Guess that'd make the FB better than the BC on them, as if your after more S5 you may as well take the suits unless I'm wrong?
I think they are great. Yes, if you do JUST math and compare them to a static line of gun drones shooting at a single target (to avoid their target protocols) it is not as good.
However, while good input, it is just an abstract comparison.
Piranhas are useful because of their speed and firepower. I use them for zipping around taking objectives, and shooting where needed.
it usually takes a bit of dedicated firepower to remove them as well. Finally, if I decide I am going to run a list that will leverage seekers (not always a good choice) they are yet another seeker platform.
Remember - a good player is more than just math - its deployment, target priority, movement, reading your opponent and have a flexible plan.
Well. I was going to disagree on overcharge thing. But the index has only shows that the unit doest have stable firing platform like the Tactical drones do. Gonna send up to GW to clarify.
Well. I was going to disagree on overcharge thing. But the index has only shows that the unit doest have stable firing platform like the Tactical drones do. Gonna send up to GW to clarify.
Even if the drone had it, it wouldn't matter - All Drone Abilities are disabled while being used as weapons on a Tank.
Which means that Gun Drones on a ... Well any of our Vehicles... doesn't need to shoot at the nearest target.
So the Sunshark itself would need to have Stable Platform
Also, ONLY Marker Drones have Stable Platform
No other Tactical Drone types have it
==========================================
As far as the Piranha is concerned, Mathhammer states it performs decently enough for its points.
Meaning it is worth using for the additional mobility and such.
Ok so I have a 1600pt game coming up and I'm super in my head about the last troop choices. I have the ability to take a sun shark, ghost keel, or fusion commander.
I have a lot of d3 damaging guns already but no D6. The gk would cover that and be another tank. The bomber would add more versatility and troop clearing and more d3 missile pods. The fusion commander is great but would be starting off the board with no way of being with-in 9" on the drop.
I could run the bomber and covert an existing commander to fusion. Just run the gk and hope it lives to shoot and do damage. (I'm going into my head again...) So thoughts or insights. I've never used the GK yet so it's a mystery to me.
Ishotfirst wrote: Ok so I have a 1600pt game coming up and I'm super in my head about the last troop choices. I have the ability to take a sun shark, ghost keel, or fusion commander.
I have a lot of d3 damaging guns already but no D6. The gk would cover that and be another tank. The bomber would add more versatility and troop clearing and more d3 missile pods. The fusion commander is great but would be starting off the board with no way of being with-in 9" on the drop.
I could run the bomber and covert an existing commander to fusion. Just run the gk and hope it lives to shoot and do damage. (I'm going into my head again...) So thoughts or insights. I've never used the GK yet so it's a mystery to me.
People are probably gonna tell you just take the fusion commander cause its a fusion commander, but honestly it depends on the rest of your list.
Do you have enough anti-infantry shooting, through BCs and pulse weapons and the like? If so, the Sun Shark might be a bit superfluous. Are you packing a lot of low shot but high damage weapons? It might be more useful. Ghostkeel depends more on the loadout you plan on giving him. Keels are quite good and I've had some success with them in 8th. Starting pretty much anywhere on the board it wants makes it incredibly useful for camping objectives or getting a quick first blood or what have you. And the -2 to hit is awesome for survival, not just because it reduces the chance of being hit but because it messes with your opponent's mind (They're not gonna waste their shooting on a target they're only gonna be half as effective against) and if they've never faced one before, they won't know to target the drones. Plus it's T6 with 10W and a 3+, the Keel is pretty durable all things considered with some decent firepower depending on the loadout. Not gonna sing you the fusion commander's praises since everyone else will do that just fine.
But honestly, without seeing your list in full we really can't give you a proper answer as to which unit to take.
In my limited experience gk is tough but doesn't do as much damage as I'd like. Firstly it has been 3 and 5 fusion shots but hits on 4 or worse. Being in range to shoot means it's native -1 is probably not going to happen on the opponents turn. Commander has consistent 4 shots at 2+ and although it has fewer wounds the opponent must shoot shield drones directly first. Moving the commander manually with a posse of shield drones is less quick but shooting is better. I tend too use both since opponents fear the keel.
Keel is basically trash. Only purpose I see for it is as a hard to dispatch drone controller that is totally reliant on marker light support to have reasonable firepower. With 5 Markers on a target it isn't bad.
I think a unit of stealth suits does this a lot better but they can't take that amount of fusion.
Xenomancers wrote: Keel is basically trash. Only purpose I see for it is as a hard to dispatch drone controller that is totally reliant on marker light support to have reasonable firepower. With 5 Markers on a target it isn't bad.
I think a unit of stealth suits does this a lot better but they can't take that amount of fusion.
But to counter their lack of fusion, they can instead bring a homing beacon to potentially ensure your deep striking fusion can land in optimal range.
Everytime I fielded the GK was a great success. I play two of them, with Ion Raker and Burst Cannon, ATS, and sometimes VT, or SI. They are cheap.
I play them in a ML heavy list, and I usually deploy them in or around cover, in a way that I can hide the stealth drones out of line of sight. I also deploy them around 24" from the ennemy deployment zone, or in the middle of the table.
They don't do incredible amounts of damage, but they always seem to brainfuck my opponents, who spend two or sometimes three rounds giving everything they can to bring them down. Which is exactly why I field them, cause at only 170 points, they are amazing disruptors.
Haechi wrote: Everytime I fielded the GK was a great success. I play two of them, with Ion Raker and Burst Cannon, ATS, and sometimes VT, or SI. They are cheap.
I play them in a ML heavy list, and I usually deploy them in or around cover, in a way that I can hide the stealth drones out of line of sight. I also deploy them around 24" from the ennemy deployment zone, or in the middle of the table.
They don't do incredible amounts of damage, but they always seem to brainfuck my opponents, who spend two or sometimes three rounds giving everything they can to bring them down. Which is exactly why I field them, cause at only 170 points, they are amazing disruptors.
Well - soon they will learn to ignore the thing. I just played against tau last night - I completely ignored the thing even though I had the perfect weapon to hurt it. Dark reapers. He fired 5 times with it and it did maybe 80 points of damage. You are running it the right way though - with lots of marker light support. My opponent had 8 pathfinders - not enough.
Ishotfirst wrote: Ok so I have a 1600pt game coming up and I'm super in my head about the last troop choices. I have the ability to take a sun shark, ghost keel, or fusion commander.
I have a lot of d3 damaging guns already but no D6. The gk would cover that and be another tank. The bomber would add more versatility and troop clearing and more d3 missile pods. The fusion commander is great but would be starting off the board with no way of being with-in 9" on the drop.
I could run the bomber and covert an existing commander to fusion. Just run the gk and hope it lives to shoot and do damage. (I'm going into my head again...) So thoughts or insights. I've never used the GK yet so it's a mystery to me.
People are probably gonna tell you just take the fusion commander cause its a fusion commander, but honestly it depends on the rest of your list.
Do you have enough anti-infantry shooting, through BCs and pulse weapons and the like? If so, the Sun Shark might be a bit superfluous. Are you packing a lot of low shot but high damage weapons? It might be more useful. Ghostkeel depends more on the loadout you plan on giving him. Keels are quite good and I've had some success with them in 8th. Starting pretty much anywhere on the board it wants makes it incredibly useful for camping objectives or getting a quick first blood or what have you. And the -2 to hit is awesome for survival, not just because it reduces the chance of being hit but because it messes with your opponent's mind (They're not gonna waste their shooting on a target they're only gonna be half as effective against) and if they've never faced one before, they won't know to target the drones. Plus it's T6 with 10W and a 3+, the Keel is pretty durable all things considered with some decent firepower depending on the loadout. Not gonna sing you the fusion commander's praises since everyone else will do that just fine.
But honestly, without seeing your list in full we really can't give you a proper answer as to which unit to take.
I know my opponent watches the forums more carefully than I do so it's hard to post a full list before the game. But I do have a lot of anti-inf packed in my list. 40+ models just for that. As mentioned I have a large amount of d3 damaging units. I'm lacking the heavy fusion punch so that's why the question is posted. As mentioned I have a commander that could go fusion for the sergical removal of a vehicle but this remains of how then to load out the GK or run the sun-shark. One purpose I had for the GK was to follow my drones to give them a DC bonus but the brings him super close to enemy units.
Edit: don't want to search for it but fusion commander load out is typically just 4 FB correct?
Has anyone run the all FB load out on the GK? Would it be better to do the Ion Raker and 2 FB?
So, I suddenly find myself in possession of 24 Fire Warriors with Pulse Carbines and two Devilfish to go with 'em.
The question is, are they ever useful? Drones would be a tad more durable and, minus the Devilfish, would be faster for the same points. The Warriors get Photon Grenades but nothing else (unless I move them to 11 + a Fireblade leader) ... if there ever a time when you need to use these guys?
Yes. They are a good mobile force. What you need to do, if possible, is to use a Pulse Accelerator Drone with them, so you can shoot at 24".
Also, and to make full use of the Carbines, you need to play them as objective grabbers and advance as much as you need to, without hesitation.
The difference with Rifles isn't that big anyway. It's like you have the rapide fire effect at 18" instead of 15, but can't shoot at 30. So play them offensively.
Ishotfirst wrote: Ok so I have a 1600pt game coming up and I'm super in my head about the last troop choices. I have the ability to take a sun shark, ghost keel, or fusion commander.
I have a lot of d3 damaging guns already but no D6. The gk would cover that and be another tank. The bomber would add more versatility and troop clearing and more d3 missile pods. The fusion commander is great but would be starting off the board with no way of being with-in 9" on the drop.
I could run the bomber and covert an existing commander to fusion. Just run the gk and hope it lives to shoot and do damage. (I'm going into my head again...) So thoughts or insights. I've never used the GK yet so it's a mystery to me.
People are probably gonna tell you just take the fusion commander cause its a fusion commander, but honestly it depends on the rest of your list.
Do you have enough anti-infantry shooting, through BCs and pulse weapons and the like? If so, the Sun Shark might be a bit superfluous. Are you packing a lot of low shot but high damage weapons? It might be more useful. Ghostkeel depends more on the loadout you plan on giving him. Keels are quite good and I've had some success with them in 8th. Starting pretty much anywhere on the board it wants makes it incredibly useful for camping objectives or getting a quick first blood or what have you. And the -2 to hit is awesome for survival, not just because it reduces the chance of being hit but because it messes with your opponent's mind (They're not gonna waste their shooting on a target they're only gonna be half as effective against) and if they've never faced one before, they won't know to target the drones. Plus it's T6 with 10W and a 3+, the Keel is pretty durable all things considered with some decent firepower depending on the loadout. Not gonna sing you the fusion commander's praises since everyone else will do that just fine.
But honestly, without seeing your list in full we really can't give you a proper answer as to which unit to take.
I know my opponent watches the forums more carefully than I do so it's hard to post a full list before the game. But I do have a lot of anti-inf packed in my list. 40+ models just for that. As mentioned I have a large amount of d3 damaging units. I'm lacking the heavy fusion punch so that's why the question is posted. As mentioned I have a commander that could go fusion for the sergical removal of a vehicle but this remains of how then to load out the GK or run the sun-shark. One purpose I had for the GK was to follow my drones to give them a DC bonus but the brings him super close to enemy units.
Edit: don't want to search for it but fusion commander load out is typically just 4 FB correct?
Has anyone run the all FB load out on the GK? Would it be better to do the Ion Raker and 2 FB?
CIR is like a joke, a single d6 shots on the overcharge means MASSIVE uncertainty when you shoot.
6 very standard Ion Rifle shots is what you get from like a 50 point Pathfinder squad.
Hell, you could even bring a Sunshark, detach the drones and use just the drones as 4-8 Ion Rifle shots...
As far as I see it, GK should always go Fusion
and yea Fusion Monat is always 4 FB.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wakshaani wrote: So, I suddenly find myself in possession of 24 Fire Warriors with Pulse Carbines and two Devilfish to go with 'em.
The question is, are they ever useful? Drones would be a tad more durable and, minus the Devilfish, would be faster for the same points. The Warriors get Photon Grenades but nothing else (unless I move them to 11 + a Fireblade leader) ... if there ever a time when you need to use these guys?
I would just tell my opponent that they are Pathfinders
Wakshaani wrote: So, I suddenly find myself in possession of 24 Fire Warriors with Pulse Carbines and two Devilfish to go with 'em.
The question is, are they ever useful? Drones would be a tad more durable and, minus the Devilfish, would be faster for the same points. The Warriors get Photon Grenades but nothing else (unless I move them to 11 + a Fireblade leader) ... if there ever a time when you need to use these guys?
You can run them as normal strike team but put them in a devilfish to go get objectives. Upgrade the sergeant to have a marker light which will allow for an Ok-ish attempt at having a re-role to 1's when hopping out. Or you could get a Pulse accelerator drone and run them as pathfinders they will be the same price point wise but with less of an armor save, most players won't care as long as they can identify what they are. But the increase to range through the accelerator is nice.
Haechi wrote: Yes. They are a good mobile force. What you need to do, if possible, is to use a Pulse Accelerator Drone with them, so you can shoot at 24".
Also, and to make full use of the Carbines, you need to play them as objective grabbers and advance as much as you need to, without hesitation.
The difference with Rifles isn't that big anyway. It's like you have the rapide fire effect at 18" instead of 15, but can't shoot at 30. So play them offensively.
Strike teams and Breacher teams cannot take an accelerator drone. They need to get it from a path finder team, or be a pathfinder team from the start.
So can I run a XV107 R'varna Battlesuit without feeling bad now?
Also, has a comparison been done between the broadside(missile) and a commander with 4 missile pods?
The commander could fill a similar role to a broadside with a bit more mobility, better BS, minus the SMS systems, but for less points. Thoughts?
CIR is like a joke, a single d6 shots on the overcharge means MASSIVE uncertainty when you shoot.
6 very standard Ion Rifle shots is what you get from like a 50 point Pathfinder squad.
Hell, you could even bring a Sunshark, detach the drones and use just the drones as 4-8 Ion Rifle shots...
As far as I see it, GK should always go Fusion
and yea Fusion Monat is always 4 FB.
I agree that the overcharge seems silly on the CIR. However, when back up by an ATS, the basic CIR profile is pretty effective. I don't think I'd bother with 2 more fusion blasters instead of it, especially when fusion Commanders exist. S7 shots aren't something we're in short supply of, but Pathfinders aren't anywhere near as durable as the Ghostkeel and give up 9" range.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I hadn't paid much attention to ITC rules, but it looks like you can use Ta'unars for the moment. While the Ta'unar is a fairly underpowered for its cost, it's a battlesuit, so you can abuse the living hell out of savior protocols. Since Gun Drones are basically our best unit at the moment, taking tons of them isn't exactly a tax. You can fairly easily create a mobile wall of drones, probably with some substantial aura buffs, and stomp around blowing the living piss out of whatever ails you with the Ta'unar and slam it all into 2000pts. I know it's not going to win you any friends, but it sounds fairly competitive to me. Has anybody tried that?
YangusTheGreat wrote: So can I run a XV107 R'varna Battlesuit without feeling bad now?
Also, has a comparison been done between the broadside(missile) and a commander with 4 missile pods?
The commander could fill a similar role to a broadside with a bit more mobility, better BS, minus the SMS systems, but for less points. Thoughts?
R'varna isn't that hot (average 12 shots, 6 hits, wounds 66% of the time vs anything T4-5 (most stuff in the game)... probably kills 2-3 marines per turn). And, also, it wasn't taht much after the AP4 change. I think it's a bit overcosted for what it does now.
Commander vs Broadside: I'd rather use the Commander or a Heavy Bombardment Hammerhead (FW index) than a HYMP Broadside all the time. I think only the HRR Broadside can find some use and still be worth its points
CIR is like a joke, a single d6 shots on the overcharge means MASSIVE uncertainty when you shoot.
6 very standard Ion Rifle shots is what you get from like a 50 point Pathfinder squad.
Hell, you could even bring a Sunshark, detach the drones and use just the drones as 4-8 Ion Rifle shots...
As far as I see it, GK should always go Fusion
and yea Fusion Monat is always 4 FB.
I agree that the overcharge seems silly on the CIR. However, when back up by an ATS, the basic CIR profile is pretty effective. I don't think I'd bother with 2 more fusion blasters instead of it, especially when fusion Commanders exist. S7 shots aren't something we're in short supply of, but Pathfinders aren't anywhere near as durable as the Ghostkeel and give up 9" range.
"Commanders exist" invalidates so much...
Heavy 6 24" S7 AP-2 Shots?
Assault 6 36" AP-2 Shots OR Assault 9 18" S7 AP-2 Shots
CIR is like a joke, a single d6 shots on the overcharge means MASSIVE uncertainty when you shoot.
6 very standard Ion Rifle shots is what you get from like a 50 point Pathfinder squad.
Hell, you could even bring a Sunshark, detach the drones and use just the drones as 4-8 Ion Rifle shots...
As far as I see it, GK should always go Fusion
and yea Fusion Monat is always 4 FB.
I agree that the overcharge seems silly on the CIR. However, when back up by an ATS, the basic CIR profile is pretty effective. I don't think I'd bother with 2 more fusion blasters instead of it, especially when fusion Commanders exist. S7 shots aren't something we're in short supply of, but Pathfinders aren't anywhere near as durable as the Ghostkeel and give up 9" range.
"Commanders exist" invalidates so much...
Heavy 6 24" S7 AP-2 Shots?
Assault 6 36" AP-2 Shots OR Assault 9 18" S7 AP-2 Shots
To be fair, it only invalidates everything it does when all we compare is the math hammer of average damage dealt under ideal circumstances, ignoring things like durability and survivability. You're also conveniently ignoring that the Keel comes with 2 additional weapons with the CIR, while those S7 shots are all the Commander has.
Heavy 6 24" S7 AP -2 WITH Assault 2 S8 AP -5 D D6/Assault 8 S5 AP -1/Assault 2D6 S4 AP -1 on a T6, W10, 3+ platform that is always -1 to hit outside of 12" and automatically comes with a Drone that gives the platform an additional -1 to hit at all times when the Drone is within 3" (And still has an additional support system slot open to take whatever you need/want on it).
Assault 6 36" S7 AP -2 OR Assault 9 18" S7 AP -2 on a T5, W6, 3+ platform with the character keyword (who has no additional hardpoints left meaning that that is as survivable as he gets).
Suddenly we have a much different picture being painted here when we include more relevant information regarding the choice.
To be fair, it only invalidates everything it does when all we compare is the math hammer of average damage dealt under ideal circumstances, ignoring things like durability and survivability. You're also conveniently ignoring that the Keel comes with 2 additional weapons with the CIR, while those S7 shots are all the Commander has.
Heavy 6 24" S7 AP -2 WITH Assault 2 S8 AP -5 D D6/Assault 8 S5 AP -1/Assault 2D6 S4 AP -1 on a T6, W10, 3+ platform that is always -1 to hit outside of 12" and automatically comes with a Drone that gives the platform an additional -1 to hit at all times when the Drone is within 3" (And still has an additional support system slot open to take whatever you need/want on it).
Assault 6 36" S7 AP -2 OR Assault 9 18" S7 AP -2 on a T5, W6, 3+ platform with the character keyword (who has no additional hardpoints left meaning that that is as survivable as he gets).
Suddenly we have a much different picture being painted here when we include more relevant information regarding the choice.
Then we circle back to BS+2
vs BS+4 that becomes BS+5 at half HP
Also Character Armor~
Tho, seriously. I'm not trying to say GKs are bad. I just don't see CIR as a great weapon because of the stupid d6 Overload. Tho, it being Heavy doesn't help either.
YangusTheGreat wrote: So can I run a XV107 R'varna Battlesuit without feeling bad now?
Also, has a comparison been done between the broadside(missile) and a commander with 4 missile pods?
The commander could fill a similar role to a broadside with a bit more mobility, better BS, minus the SMS systems, but for less points. Thoughts?
R'varna isn't that hot (average 12 shots, 6 hits, wounds 66% of the time vs anything T4-5 (most stuff in the game)... probably kills 2-3 marines per turn). And, also, it wasn't taht much after the AP4 change. I think it's a bit overcosted for what it does now.
Play the 107 yourself - I have found it to be quite powerful - but then I am also using it against mid toughness units (t6, T7).
For example, against tyranids (which a lot of are coming back) it just destroys them. Most are T6 - this thing is -3 to saves (thanks to the free ATS) and just destroys at 3 damage each.
Overcharge the munitions and you are getting insane numbers of shots - I am getting about 12 shots out of this.
It comes with its own built in markerlight (the multi tracker) - of those 12, hitting with about 8.
3 damage is awesome vs. D3 that a lot of other weapons in its range have
It is also fun to play with the shockwave - wade into a bunch of units and zap them. oh, and for icing on the cake - it can use drones for wounds as it is a battlesuit.
Unless your meta have a ton of T7 and up units, this should do well. But again - PLAY with it - NOTHING beats actual experience.
To be fair, it only invalidates everything it does when all we compare is the math hammer of average damage dealt under ideal circumstances, ignoring things like durability and survivability. You're also conveniently ignoring that the Keel comes with 2 additional weapons with the CIR, while those S7 shots are all the Commander has.
Eeeem, no.
The commander is superior is nearly every scenario, and including the extra weapons the keel has.
Not as hard to kill, true, but more likely to get his shots off properly with his weapons not being heavy,
Keels are just bad at killing stuff, not just compared to commanders but in general-their only merit is being generally hard to kill, but that alone is not enough.
davethepak wrote: Play the 107 yourself - I have found it to be quite powerful - but then I am also using it against mid toughness units (t6, T7).
For example, against tyranids (which a lot of are coming back) it just destroys them. Most are T6 - this thing is -3 to saves (thanks to the free ATS) and just destroys at 3 damage each.
Overcharge the munitions and you are getting insane numbers of shots - I am getting about 12 shots out of this.
It comes with its own built in markerlight (the multi tracker) - of those 12, hitting with about 8.
3 damage is awesome vs. D3 that a lot of other weapons in its range have
It is also fun to play with the shockwave - wade into a bunch of units and zap them. oh, and for icing on the cake - it can use drones for wounds as it is a battlesuit.
Unless your meta have a ton of T7 and up units, this should do well. But again - PLAY with it - NOTHING beats actual experience.
best of luck!
I will test it soon. But my ordinary opponents use infantry a lot - only the AM guy likes vehicles in same proportion of soldiers... And the 107 it isn't cheap at all! You're needing to NOVA it to get the average 12 shots? Damn. I was expecting 15 average shots when NOVAing.
It comes with a base Multi-tracker? Lol, never noticed that before. But ATS isn't free, you need to pay for it (same with Stimulant Injector). It's sad it can't take other support systems - EWO would be quite nifty on it.
The R'Varna seems to be an okay-ish suit to take. Math tells us it's decent against hard targets with a lot of wounds, but we have lots of other options that are better for that task, like, you know, fusion Commanders. It's rock hard on its own and even more so due to drones but lacks the FLY keyword, which really sort of sucks a lot. I'd give it a whirl but wouldn't count on it producing more than the similarly-costed Y'Vahra.
To be fair, it only invalidates everything it does when all we compare is the math hammer of average damage dealt under ideal circumstances, ignoring things like durability and survivability. You're also conveniently ignoring that the Keel comes with 2 additional weapons with the CIR, while those S7 shots are all the Commander has.
Eeeem, no.
The commander is superior is nearly every scenario, and including the extra weapons the keel has.
Not as hard to kill, true, but more likely to get his shots off properly with his weapons not being heavy,
Keels are just bad at killing stuff, not just compared to commanders but in general-their only merit is being generally hard to kill, but that alone is not enough.
You are correct. However, if you are including a Keel in your army, you should be taking enough marker lights to get some 3+ BS, re roll 1's out of your Keel and other squads in your army that are BS 4+. If you dont have markerlights in your army, dont take a Keel. Pretty much applies to anything BS 4+ in a Tau army. Once a squad is lit up, all of a sudden the Keel is GOOD at killing stuff.
To be fair, it only invalidates everything it does when all we compare is the math hammer of average damage dealt under ideal circumstances, ignoring things like durability and survivability. You're also conveniently ignoring that the Keel comes with 2 additional weapons with the CIR, while those S7 shots are all the Commander has.
Eeeem, no.
The commander is superior is nearly every scenario, and including the extra weapons the keel has.
Not as hard to kill, true, but more likely to get his shots off properly with his weapons not being heavy,
Keels are just bad at killing stuff, not just compared to commanders but in general-their only merit is being generally hard to kill, but that alone is not enough.
Ghostkeels are bad at killing stuff? Hmm, guess I'll have to have a talk with my Ghostkeels, they've been doing pretty darn well at killing things this edition, gonna have to tell them to tone it down a bit, they're not supposed to do well on the table. As for the heavy weapon thing, Target Locks do exist, and honestly are kinda auto include on the bigger suits (Broadsides, Ghostkeels, and Riptides). Regardless of my feelings on support systems being considered auto include on certain units, it kinda is on them, and if you run them without a TL, then you're kinda just asking them to not perform well. Not particularly happy that that's the case, but it is what it is.
ing thing we point our guns at in a turn.We are not experts at either, hopefully this is fixed whenever we get a codex. Right now I see T'au troops having a split mode. Some troops need to hold home objectives and slowly advance (if at all), namely Strike teams and BroadSides, Hammer Heads, and some Commander load outs. Then we have the hard strikers which consist of Commanders, XV8 drops (for what ever there worth), Piranhas with 
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