They may kill things okay, but their firepower compares directly with Commanders. Would you rather pay an extra 45 pts to hit on a 4 instead of a 2 and lose the ability to deep strike?
I've been toying with a list themed to vanguard and outrider detachments. Using pathfinders in place of firewarriors, and going msu with them to max on ion/rails (plus the 2 ml in each). Have people had good success with around 4 -6 squads of 5, and if so which rifle did you run them with?
MilkmanAl wrote: They may kill things okay, but their firepower compares directly with Commanders. Would you rather pay an extra 45 pts to hit on a 4 instead of a 2 and lose the ability to deep strike?
Depends on what you want for your army list. Do you want to pay more for a unit that has 4 more wounds, opponents shoot at it with -2 to hit so its hopefully a fire magnet, and can infiltrate and support your other deepstriking units? I dont run one myself but consider it a good choice with markerlight support.
doc1234 wrote: I've been toying with a list themed to vanguard and outrider detachments. Using pathfinders in place of firewarriors, and going msu with them to max on ion/rails (plus the 2 ml in each). Have people had good success with around 4 -6 squads of 5, and if so which rifle did you run them with?
Ion is safe, and will never feel like they didn't do work. Even if they die without ever firing a shot, the entire squad was only 50 points. At worst they gave you access to a Grav Drone for 60 points, and absorbed some shooting from more important stuff.
If you bring that many squads, I would say bring 2-3 Recon Drones to allow your Pathfinders to ignore cover.
Rail is a gamble, they can be more effective but if targeted you will feel it wasted.
vs Devastators/Havocs in Cover 30"
Fire Warriors - 7 / (1 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/6) = 108 shots to kill the 1st heavy weapon
Ion Rifles - 7 / (2 * 21/36 * 5/6 * 1/3) = 21.6 shots to kill the 1st heavy weapon
Ion Rifles with Recon Drone nearby - 7 / (2 * 21/36 * 5/6 * 1/2) = 14.4 shots to kill the 1st heavy weapon
Rail Rifle - 7 / ((1 * 21/36 * 2/3) + (1 * 21/36 * 1/6)) = 14.4 shots to kill the 1st heavy weapon
15"
Fire Warriors - 7 / (2 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/6) = 54 shots to kill the 1st heavy weapon
Rail Rifle - 7 / ((2 * 21/36 * 2/3) + (2 * 21/36 * 1/6)) = 7.2 shots to kill the 1st heavy weapon
I feel like the GK has a strange load out to a degree, with the FB it is a scary looking target so people focus it but in order to shoot anything you need to be in 18" but out of 12" to be survivable; but at the same time most units can move around 6" so even if you position right at the edge of your range you risk them diving in on you. So you are trapped spending 200 points that will not be doing damage or is not all that survivable. On the other hand the Ion Raker load out lacks the punch to be really scary to most people so it moves down the priority queue of units, so then you have a unit which lacks a spectacular armement and is not making use of its key concept of toughness.
Maybe going half and half with ion and rail pf might work out slightly better. 2-3 ion teams for tackling medium infantry @, $ light vehicles?, and some rail teams for any 2+ save infantry
I think they are great. Yes, if you do JUST math and compare them to a static line of gun drones shooting at a single target (to avoid their target protocols) it is not as good.
However, while good input, it is just an abstract comparison.
Piranhas are useful because of their speed and firepower. I use them for zipping around taking objectives, and shooting where needed.
it usually takes a bit of dedicated firepower to remove them as well. Finally, if I decide I am going to run a list that will leverage seekers (not always a good choice) they are yet another seeker platform.
Remember - a good player is more than just math - its deployment, target priority, movement, reading your opponent and have a flexible plan.
Granted, I am a little salty that they went from "slightly more durable than a landspeeder" to "significantly less durable than a landspeeder" over the edition change.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rockfish wrote: I feel like the GK has a strange load out to a degree, with the FB it is a scary looking target so people focus it but in order to shoot anything you need to be in 18" but out of 12" to be survivable; but at the same time most units can move around 6" so even if you position right at the edge of your range you risk them diving in on you. So you are trapped spending 200 points that will not be doing damage or is not all that survivable. On the other hand the Ion Raker load out lacks the punch to be really scary to most people so it moves down the priority queue of units, so then you have a unit which lacks a spectacular armement and is not making use of its key concept of toughness.
That's because the Ghostkeel, like many other things in the Tau codex, is balanced around the now non-existent ability to move after shooting. The prevalence of fly on our models is somewhat similar against melee attacks, but it doesn't help at all against ranged attacks.
Well the game happened. I'm working up the battle report. Lost, for a few reasions. But did gain some valuable insight into tatics needed. Don't have much time at the moment but I'll be able to field some insights and possible considerations for our builds.
Granted, I am a little salty that they went from "slightly more durable than a landspeeder" to "significantly less durable than a landspeeder" over the edition change.
Landspeeder: T 5, W 6, Sv 3+
Pirhana: T5, W 6, Sv 4+
They're *nearly* the same, just the Marine Save vs Tau Save.
I wish that they had better weapon options tho. Like the Landspeeder, the Pirhana should have several weapon options. They're an ideal place for a single missile system, for instance, or for a pair of underchin plasma rifles. Yeah, you'd need a new kit, but, man, it'd be a big hit.
I wish that they had better weapon options tho. Like the Landspeeder, the Pirhana should have several weapon options. They're an ideal place for a single missile system, for instance, or for a pair of underchin plasma rifles. Yeah, you'd need a new kit, but, man, it'd be a big hit.
getting some new kits for the tau vehicles would be awsome, the piranha has so much potential for different upgrades and the hammerhead could do with some variants and better moulds. Maybe some day we could get some, if GW realsies that not everyone wants to field just battlesuits.
I wish that they had better weapon options tho. Like the Landspeeder, the Pirhana should have several weapon options. They're an ideal place for a single missile system, for instance, or for a pair of underchin plasma rifles. Yeah, you'd need a new kit, but, man, it'd be a big hit.
Piranha TX-42 from FW has those options. It's a bit more expensive (akin to 120ish points)
If they update the piranha kit, I would hope for more drastic redesign. The size is..ok? merits from being such a movement blocking piece, but I would generally like a more streamlined/smaller design for being so tissue-paper soft. And even the option for missile pods/CIB IF it gets something like relentless again/stable platform. Seems it would match the meta a bit better.
Landspeeder: T 5, W 6, Sv 3+
Pirhana: T5, W 6, Sv 4+
They're *nearly* the same, just the Marine Save vs Tau Save.
I wish that they had better weapon options tho. Like the Landspeeder, the Pirhana should have several weapon options. They're an ideal place for a single missile system, for instance, or for a pair of underchin plasma rifles. Yeah, you'd need a new kit, but, man, it'd be a big hit.
An extra point of armour is hardly an insignificant difference, especially when Piranhas used to be 11/10/10 2HP vs the Landspeeder's 10/10/10 HP2. I'd always liked the thought that since the Tau are just a little more reasonable and rational, their skimmers were just a little better armoured where it counted. With all the other problems with the codex, discovering that that was no longer the case was a bit of a kick in the teeth.
More options for Piranhas would definitely be fun. Could be fun to field a Piranha heavy army. (They also could carry a single missile before eighth.)
you can take up to two seeker missiles per piranha. I usually do it since it is only 10 points and it stops me from feeling like some of the marker light results do nothing
I still feel that Markerlight 2 should read "Ignore any penalties to-be-hit that this unit has" (So, for instance, the -1 to-be hit of a Ravenguard unit or the -1 to-hit of a Supersonic flyer are disregarded) while Seker Missiles should read:
"Drone Brain. This attack hits on a 5+, regardless of the vehicle's normal BS. This attack gains +1 to-hit per markerlight on the targeted unit in addition to the usual Markerlight bonuses. On a to-hit roll of 6+, this attack deals 1D3 Mortal Wounds, rather than 1."
ROUGHLY worded. Makes Markerlights a little bit better without being insanely stronger and gives Seeker Missiles a little Oomph.
But that's not really for this thread, is it?
I'm currently trying to assemble a small Tau force out of the parts I've picked up over the years, topped off with a couple of new purchases. Currently, I have:
48 Fire Warriors with Pulse Rifles
24 Fire Warriors with Pulse Carbines
10 Pathfinders
10 Crisis Suits (only 1 assembled yet) (OLD models)
9 Stealth Suits
4-ish Devilfish
2-ish Hammerheads
2-ish Skyrays
(There are a couple of spare turrets that could be moved around here.)
15 Piranha
30-ish drones (two Markerlight, 3 Pathfinder, 24+ Gun Drones)
1 Fireblade
30 Kroot
It's thin right now, with command especially so, but workable in a classic gunline sense. I don't really care for the giant battlesuits (Riptides, Ghostkeels, etc), but I like the line infantry and, obviously, the speedy flankers. I'm just not yet sure the best way to turn this into a fighting force. It lacks something with significant staying power that I can park on an objective, which is sort of the definition of a Riptide, but I want to avoid that if possible.
Any suggestions? (Other than, you know, "Spam commanders").
Wakshaani wrote: I still feel that Markerlight 2 should read "Ignore any penalties to-be-hit that this unit has" (So, for instance, the -1 to-be hit of a Ravenguard unit or the -1 to-hit of a Supersonic flyer are disregarded) while Seker Missiles should read:
"Drone Brain. This attack hits on a 5+, regardless of the vehicle's normal BS. This attack gains +1 to-hit per markerlight on the targeted unit in addition to the usual Markerlight bonuses. On a to-hit roll of 6+, this attack deals 1D3 Mortal Wounds, rather than 1."
ROUGHLY worded. Makes Markerlights a little bit better without being insanely stronger and gives Seeker Missiles a little Oomph.
I am super new to the tau empire and just wanted to get some clarification on why the riptide is soooo bad? Is it mainly based on the point value of it with its upgrades or is it just not an optimally effective machine anymore.
What units should I be focusing on more then others? There are a lot of options that look sweet, but I'm still trying to work out the best tactics for them.
I am super new to the tau empire and just wanted to get some clarification on why the riptide is soooo bad? Is it mainly based on the point value of it with its upgrades or is it just not an optimally effective machine anymore.
What units should I be focusing on more then others? There are a lot of options that look sweet, but I'm still trying to work out the best tactics for them.
Thanks for all the information.
You can find a lot of stuff that, for 304 points, will do way better than a Riptide. All it really does now is to soak wound from your other units... until the enemy learns to avoid it and fire at anything else. Like the Dwarven Defender prestige class from D&D 3.5 - very hard to kill, but without serious bite.
The best way to learn what will do good or bad in your group is playing. But, in general, we can say Fusion Blaster or Cclic Ion Blaster Commanders, Cadre Fireblades + Strike Teams, Darkstrider + Breachers + Devilfishes, Pathfinders, XV109 Y'vahra, Flamer Crisis Suits, Sun Shark Bomber and Hammerheads + Longstrike are our best units.
If you were to have four, and only four, Commanders in your 2k list, what equipment would you run? I'm thinking of 2 fusionmanders,1 with CIBs, 1 with Missiles to stand back providing Mont'ka or Kayuon, but I feel Coldstar would be better than missilemander. Thoughts?
Fueli wrote: If you were to have four, and only four, Commanders in your 2k list, what equipment would you run? I'm thinking of 2 fusionmanders,1 with CIBs, 1 with Missiles to stand back providing Mont'ka or Kayuon, but I feel Coldstar would be better than missilemander. Thoughts?
Id go with 2 3 Fusion Shield Generator commanders, and 2 Coldstars, but thats just me.
Colstar is not entirely about firepower, its more about the fact that NOTHING and NOWHERE is safe.
You can't possibly hide from them, you can't put anything in between-he WILL reach you if he needs to, and if you didn't left enough to defend a remote objective, he easily claims it.
Its the fastest thing in the game by far except actual aircraft, and that's his true value.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm not convinced Coldstar has enough firepower. Is his speed worth his price?
ATS with 2 Burst Cannons and a Missile Pod is nothing to sneeze at, but its no Fusionmander. 20 inch move and assault. It has more mobility than any unit in the game. You can tie up any squad in the game because he has fly. Devastator squad giving you problems in the back? Move right next to them, shoot and charge, tie em up. Heck he can tie up tanks, as long as you have a shield gen and he doesnt get lucky with overwatch.
Now these are exactly the reasons I'm considering Coldstar. I have one unbuilt commander kit and I think I might build it as Coldstar. Cheers for replies guys.
Tie up any unit in the game? Yeah, you can run from combat, but Commanders aren't exactly tanks. I definitely wouldn't be deliberately getting them into assaults except in dire and/or unique circumstances. The "FLY" keyword gets a whole lot of unwarranted praise in this thread, I feel like. We still get effing rolled in combat, guys. You're not going to have anything left to fall back with after a round of combat.
Well, I don't think anyone was suggesting trying to use the Coldstar to tie up Khorne Berzerkers or Assault Terminators or other dedicated assault units. Tanks are the only thing in the game worse at combat than Tau, so we should look to tie those up if possible.
I ran a Coldstar last weekend during a bunch of games and they definitely scored more than anything else in the army, and they were great at picking up my opponent's characters when they forget to have a bubble of models around them. I killed Yvraine and Yarrick like that.
The best way to learn what will do good or bad in your group is playing. But, in general, we can say Fusion Blaster or Cclic Ion Blaster Commanders, Cadre Fireblades + Strike Teams, Darkstrider + Breachers + Devilfishes, Pathfinders, XV109 Y'vahra, Flamer Crisis Suits, Sun Shark Bomber and Hammerheads + Longstrike are our best units.
I am so sorry for being this dumb but what are these units? "Cclic Ion Blaster Commanders, Cadre Fireblades + Strike Teams, Darkstrider + Breachers"
I know what the commander is but I do not know what weapon. I am a little lost in what the other units are. Thanks for the info.
Fusion Blaster Commander and Ion Blaster Commander are Commanders with either 4 of these weapons or 3 of them and an Advanced Targeting System.
Cadre Fireblade + Strike Teams is the combination of both, since they have good synergy. Same with Darkstrider and Breachers embarked in a Devilfish.
The best way to learn what will do good or bad in your group is playing. But, in general, we can say Fusion Blaster or Cclic Ion Blaster Commanders, Cadre Fireblades + Strike Teams, Darkstrider + Breachers + Devilfishes, Pathfinders, XV109 Y'vahra, Flamer Crisis Suits, Sun Shark Bomber and Hammerheads + Longstrike are our best units.
I am so sorry for being this dumb but what are these units? "Cclic Ion Blaster Commanders, Cadre Fireblades + Strike Teams, Darkstrider + Breachers"
I know what the commander is but I do not know what weapon. I am a little lost in what the other units are. Thanks for the info.
I might point out the Index Xenos 2 has all these units adn weapons, except for Y'vhara (Imperial Armour Index Xenos). A single mistake: it's Cyclic Ion Blaster
ZergSmasher wrote: Well, I don't think anyone was suggesting trying to use the Coldstar to tie up Khorne Berzerkers or Assault Terminators or other dedicated assault units. Tanks are the only thing in the game worse at combat than Tau, so we should look to tie those up if possible.
Exactly. Tie up tanks/vehicles that cant do anything in CC. profit. Leman Russ battle tank is a great example. But if anything, GW has given us a reason to field the Coldstar in 8th, beyond the rules, its just badass to finally have a Gundam. Gonna paint my coldstar just like the Tallgeese in Gundam Wing.
Question regarding the pathfinder special drones to be specific the Pulse Accelerator Drones the rule stated that "T'AU EMPIRE INFANTRY units within 3" of a friendly Pulse Accelerator Drone have the range of their pulse pistols, pulse carbines, and pulse rifles increased by 6." would this work for overlapping drones i.e. if one squad has two drones within range would that be pushed to 12"?
E'mt P8al wrote: Question regarding the pathfinder special drones to be specific the Pulse Accelerator Drones the rule stated that "T'AU EMPIRE INFANTRY units within 3" of a friendly Pulse Accelerator Drone have the range of their pulse pistols, pulse carbines, and pulse rifles increased by 6." would this work for overlapping drones i.e. if one squad has two drones within range would that be pushed to 12"?
"...within 3" of A friendly Pulse Accelerator...."
Like most things in 8th ed, it's a yes/no switch, not an additive. Are you within 3" of A pulse drone? Great! Here's the award. If you're near several? You still only get the one.
That said?
A Pathfinder team can get this, the Grav drone, and a pair of shield drones, setting the pack of four loose to go hang out with rifle teams to both give them longer punch and to protect them from charges. Keep a Fireblade over there as well, and you get a triple-tap at 18", supportive overwatch fire, a markerlight, and are fairly safe against charges as well.
E'mt P8al wrote:
Question regarding the pathfinder special drones to be specific the Pulse Accelerator Drones the rule stated that "T'AU EMPIRE INFANTRY units within 3" of a friendly Pulse Accelerator Drone have the range of their pulse pistols, pulse carbines, and pulse rifles increased by 6." would this work for overlapping drones i.e. if one squad has two drones within range would that be pushed to 12"?
"...within 3" of A friendly Pulse Accelerator...."
Like most things in 8th ed, it's a yes/no switch, not an additive. Are you within 3" of A pulse drone? Great! Here's the award. If you're near several? You still only get the one.
That said?
A Pathfinder team can get this, the Grav drone, and a pair of shield drones, setting the pack of four loose to go hang out with rifle teams to both give them longer punch and to protect them from charges. Keep a Fireblade over there as well, and you get a triple-tap at 18", supportive overwatch fire, a markerlight, and are fairly safe against charges as well.
Not a bad investment for 32 pts!
The two lists I'm currently working on both have an ethereal and two fireblades aswell as three 11 man fw teams and three pf teams each with the Grav and Pulse drones to help with the turtle defense
FirePainter wrote: Had a game vs IG last night. He took lots of vehicles ( artillery, 3 russes, 2 chimera) and 4 squads of stormtroopers. Ended up being a close game at 2 objs. to 1.
Any thoughts on dealing with their artillery and tanks? And yes I had two fusion commanders.
More fusion. Y'Vahra Riptides.
I'm a Tau general primarily and I freaking hate Y'Varha suits...again. It's just such an unfun unit to play or to face.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
E'mt P8al wrote: Question regarding the pathfinder special drones to be specific the Pulse Accelerator Drones the rule stated that "T'AU EMPIRE INFANTRY units within 3" of a friendly Pulse Accelerator Drone have the range of their pulse pistols, pulse carbines, and pulse rifles increased by 6." would this work for overlapping drones i.e. if one squad has two drones within range would that be pushed to 12"?
FirePainter wrote: Had a game vs IG last night. He took lots of vehicles ( artillery, 3 russes, 2 chimera) and 4 squads of stormtroopers. Ended up being a close game at 2 objs. to 1.
Any thoughts on dealing with their artillery and tanks? And yes I had two fusion commanders.
More fusion. Y'Vahra Riptides.
I'm a Tau general primarily and I freaking hate Y'Varha suits...again. It's just such an unfun unit to play or to face.
Personally I love it. It's a fast, aggressive piece that forces decisions on your opponent. It's basically our version of Magnus/Knights/greater daemons. Something big, expensive, and potent that your enemy has to deal with rather than ignore.
The fact that it looks awesome and do fits my play style for Tau is a bonus. Considering it's cost it's actually fairly fragile against the things that should be targeting it, once the drones are removed. It took one of my usual opponents by surprise during the first game I used it in this edition... Then died horrifically the first turn off the second game when he cleared the drones outside of 3 inches and then hammered it to death with Lascannon fire.
Excluding drones it's not much more durable than a Devilfish, all it's points go into guns. Which have a maximum rang of 12". The issue is that a lot of people have the mindset of charging Tau, and this is a piece that punishes that severely.
Deadawake1347 wrote: Considering it's cost it's actually fairly fragile against the things that should be targeting it,.
Surely the 4++, 2+ save and a couple of additional wounds mean it is pretty tough.
That being said, things like Mortal Wounds do make it sad and it is a perfect target for Smite.
At least we have a reliable counter to smite spa...
It's only a 4++ inside of 12 inches. It drops to a 5++ outside that, and since lascannons are -3 AP, which drops the 2+ armor save down to a 5+, it doesn't really factor in unless your opponent is dead set on charging you.
I'm not saying that it has no durability, but when you compare it to a lot of other 400 point models...
And ironically, the Devilfish is my anti-smite weapon of choice. It's fast enough to get into position, has enough wounds to soak several smites, and by the time it dies it's already unloaded a pile of Breachers where they need to be, and I don't care about losing it.
I agree the y'vahra is one of my favorite models (looks and rules). I really enjoy playing in your face tau with breachers, crisis, stealths, keels, and y'vahras. People for some reason don't expect tau to be aggressive and on their side of the board.
Jancoran wrote: Y'Vharas were and are just OP. I love my Tau but that model just makes people angry and that's no fun.
I remember in 7th. The first time my friend saw a Y'Vharas was in a game against tau. Tau went first. He proceeded to destroy like a whole unit of grey hunters with it. My friend who is actually a really nice guy and competitive player basically said - okay - you win - and started packing up immediately. It's even stronger now - lol. If you play this unit against people you really are TFG.
Jancoran wrote: Y'Vharas were and are just OP. I love my Tau but that model just makes people angry and that's no fun.
I remember in 7th. The first time my friend saw a Y'Vharas was in a game against tau. Tau went first. He proceeded to destroy like a whole unit of grey hunters with it. My friend who is actually a really nice guy and competitive player basically said - okay - you win - and started packing up immediately. It's even stronger now - lol. If you play this unit against people you really are TFG.
Seriously? It destroyed a whole unit of space marines, so it's OP? Do you know how many times I've lost entire units to marine shooting before?
Out of curiosity, do you consider anyone taking Magnus, a Knight, Guilliman, a greater daemon etc TFG? Because that's pretty much what the Y'vhrana is on par with. It's a big, expensive centerpiece unit.
Jancoran wrote: Y'Vharas were and are just OP. I love my Tau but that model just makes people angry and that's no fun.
I remember in 7th. The first time my friend saw a Y'Vharas was in a game against tau. Tau went first. He proceeded to destroy like a whole unit of grey hunters with it. My friend who is actually a really nice guy and competitive player basically said - okay - you win - and started packing up immediately. It's even stronger now - lol. If you play this unit against people you really are TFG.
Depends on who you are playing. If you are playing against a friend that brings a more fluffy list with non-optimized units, yeah, then you shouldn't bring an optimized list in return. If you are playing against a friend who is bringing Brimstone & Smite Spam, Brimstones and Knights, Stealer Rush, Scion Spam, ect, then bringing an optimized Tau list is fair game.
Jancoran wrote: Y'Vharas were and are just OP. I love my Tau but that model just makes people angry and that's no fun.
I remember in 7th. The first time my friend saw a Y'Vharas was in a game against tau. Tau went first. He proceeded to destroy like a whole unit of grey hunters with it. My friend who is actually a really nice guy and competitive player basically said - okay - you win - and started packing up immediately. It's even stronger now - lol. If you play this unit against people you really are TFG.
Depends on who you are playing. If you are playing against a friend that brings a more fluffy list with non-optimized units, yeah, then you shouldn't bring an optimized list in return. If you are playing against a friend who is bringing Brimstone & Smite Spam, Brimstones and Knights, Stealer Rush, Scion Spam, ect, then bringing an optimized Tau list is fair game.
I wouldn't include stealer rush in that list - but you are right.
Jancoran wrote: Y'Vharas were and are just OP. I love my Tau but that model just makes people angry and that's no fun.
I remember in 7th. The first time my friend saw a Y'Vharas was in a game against tau. Tau went first. He proceeded to destroy like a whole unit of grey hunters with it. My friend who is actually a really nice guy and competitive player basically said - okay - you win - and started packing up immediately. It's even stronger now - lol. If you play this unit against people you really are TFG.
Depends on who you are playing. If you are playing against a friend that brings a more fluffy list with non-optimized units, yeah, then you shouldn't bring an optimized list in return. If you are playing against a friend who is bringing Brimstone & Smite Spam, Brimstones and Knights, Stealer Rush, Scion Spam, ect, then bringing an optimized Tau list is fair game.
I wouldn't include stealer rush in that list - but you are right.
Perhaps now, but prior to the most recent FAQ which raised their costs to 15 points each, 60+ Ambushing GSC + GSC Characters + Tyranid Allies w/ Exocrines was definitely a nasty list.
Jancoran wrote: Y'Vharas were and are just OP. I love my Tau but that model just makes people angry and that's no fun.
I remember in 7th. The first time my friend saw a Y'Vharas was in a game against tau. Tau went first. He proceeded to destroy like a whole unit of grey hunters with it. My friend who is actually a really nice guy and competitive player basically said - okay - you win - and started packing up immediately. It's even stronger now - lol. If you play this unit against people you really are TFG.
Yeah I've got to say... there really isn't anything broken with the XV109.
It's weapon are 12" (or less!) range and it isn't crazy survivable.
I don't feel it should make people Angry.. no more than assault cannon razorbacks or Stormravens (yay FAQ), Shadowswords, open-topped eldar skimmers... etc.
Jancoran wrote: Y'Vharas were and are just OP. I love my Tau but that model just makes people angry and that's no fun.
I remember in 7th. The first time my friend saw a Y'Vharas was in a game against tau. Tau went first. He proceeded to destroy like a whole unit of grey hunters with it. My friend who is actually a really nice guy and competitive player basically said - okay - you win - and started packing up immediately. It's even stronger now - lol. If you play this unit against people you really are TFG.
Yeah I've got to say... there really isn't anything broken with the XV109.
It's weapon are 12" (or less!) range and it isn't crazy survivable.
I don't feel it should make people Angry.. no more than assault cannon razorbacks or Stormravens (yay FAQ), Shadowswords, open-topped eldar skimmers... etc.
Range isnt relevant to this unit. So citing it is also irrelevant. It's broken and anyone who faces it learns this quite soon. I just refuse to field it. Tried it a couple times to see what it was like in 7E (borrowed). I've seen it in 8th. Nothing dispels my feeling on it, really. There's never just one of them. It's just a ridiculously good model.
Jancoran wrote: Y'Vharas were and are just OP. I love my Tau but that model just makes people angry and that's no fun.
I remember in 7th. The first time my friend saw a Y'Vharas was in a game against tau. Tau went first. He proceeded to destroy like a whole unit of grey hunters with it. My friend who is actually a really nice guy and competitive player basically said - okay - you win - and started packing up immediately. It's even stronger now - lol. If you play this unit against people you really are TFG.
Yeah I've got to say... there really isn't anything broken with the XV109.
It's weapon are 12" (or less!) range and it isn't crazy survivable.
I don't feel it should make people Angry.. no more than assault cannon razorbacks or Stormravens (yay FAQ), Shadowswords, open-topped eldar skimmers... etc.
I agree. Y'Vahras are a glass cannon, really. They certainly pack a huge punch, but they cost 400 freaking points and don't have a whole lot of durability over a Devilfish.
It will utterly melt a unit of marines, yes.
Said unit costs a fraction of it though, and are not very hard to melt.
However the 109 itself will be left right next to the enemy, probably alone and quite open to counterattsck, if they have anything that remotely resembles a melee unit in the area.
Its a good unit, but that's it. It's not broken, not even close.
And that's why I've started running mine with a Devilfish list. Nearly the whole of my army is across the board turn one, with the rest manta striking down. If you build your list to be aggressive, if forces hard choices on them, rather than letting them target the big scary thing and easily removing it.
Then, I back up, look at its points - and look at a few of the other units in its points range (a tad over 400 with standard upgrades, but no drones).
I look at Roboute - for 360 points.
I look a land raider terminious ultra for 400 points.
Then magnus the red, etc (read his smite power...).
Then the hellforged levithan dred..etc.
Then I realize the problem is not the 109 - the problem is that most of the big units are OP. they can kill just a ton more than their points feel they should.
Personally, I think the 109 at his current level (compared to those others) is NOT as OP as those ...but it should be a lord of war. that way if you want to NOT play with lords of war...
It will utterly melt a unit of marines, yes.
Said unit costs a fraction of it though, and are not very hard to melt.
However the 109 itself will be left right next to the enemy, probably alone and quite open to counterattsck, if they have anything that remotely resembles a melee unit in the area.
Its a good unit, but that's it. It's not broken, not even close.
What is your Tau play style? sit back and shoot or more aggressive movements
I'm leaning toward for a more aggressive Tau tactic that's up in the front ranks moving and shooting? Ghostkeel, Stealth suits, Crisis, devil fish+ Breach team ect.. Don't really know what else to field but I feel this tactic is weak to Dreadknots and obv close combat. Any Advise on this way of Tau?
How do you all feel about the Piranha in this type of strategy?
After around a dozen game my play style is built around two lines. The center line, with Shadowsun, Ghostkeels, and Stealths, and the back line to support them, with Broadsides, Strike Teams, and Pathfinders.
And in reserve, 3 Crisis, a Fusion Commander, and Vespids.
trinhm03 wrote: What is your Tau play style? sit back and shoot or more aggressive movements
I'm leaning toward for a more aggressive Tau tactic that's up in the front ranks moving and shooting? Ghostkeel, Stealth suits, Crisis, devil fish+ Breach team ect.. Don't really know what else to field but I feel this tactic is weak to Dreadknots and obv close combat. Any Advise on this way of Tau?
How do you all feel about the Piranha in this type of strategy?
I definitely play aggressively.usually the only things on my side of the board at the end of turn one is my Pathfinder squads, and depending on point levels a unit of Fire Warriors holding ground. I like the Breachers/Devilfish combination quite a bit, especially with Darkstrider in one, and drones filling in space in the other. The rest of my list usually consists of a Y'Vahra or two, a pair of quad Fusion Commanders, and some dual Cyclic Ion Blaster/ATS Crisis Suits loaded with drones. The Y'Vahras and Devilfish blast up the field while the Commanders hit the heavy things. Ion Blaster Crisis Suits can act as antitank along with them and the Y'Vahras, especially with a single markerlights. 6d3 shots at strength 8, AP -2, d3 damage per unit can put out some hurt. With the reroll ones you only have a 1/36 chance of hurting yourself, and they're a great way to drop drones exactly where you need them most, by commanders or the super fast suits that leave any drones behind them first turn.
As far as close combat being an issue, it always has been for Tau, and always will be. The trick it to know that, and position yourself accordingly, so that you only lose what you're willing to lose. It definitely takes some practice, but it's fun, positioning is very important to aggressive Tau. Once those Devilfish have unloaded your Breachers/Fire Warriors, jam them down your opponent's throat. Charge with them, block charges with them, be annoying, go hunting for characters. They've already done their job at that point, so you don't have to care about losing them, but a good player can really screw up plans with them.
I'm not a huge fan of Piranhas, personally. They're a decent annoyance unit, putting out as much fire power as a min Stealth Suit squad. It depends mostly on what you expect out of them. They're unlikely to kill much, though they can be decent character hunters since they're so fast and can fly. If you're going to use them, you have to force your opponent to deal with them. Otherwise they can be safely ignored. My biggest issue is that fight with Pathfinders, Drones, and the Y'Vahra...
After several games withthe y'vahra, commanders, cold star, drones and pathfinders, i am confident that only the quad fusion commander is close to being overpowered. here is my take on the units.
y'vahra - the initial reaction from my opponent is always negative, accusing it of being overpowered. I will then analyse the game afterwards with them and see in what way it is overpowered. After the game, none of my y'vahra has gotten back its points worth in damage dealt despite of it melting a few units left and right. The true value of y'vahra is being tau distraction carnifex. The only time its worth taking is when it is paired with drones and absorb enemy fire power and take their focus away from the real glass cannon of my army, the quad fusion commander. The y'vahra augments opponent shooting, movements and their entire strategy outlook of the game It is priced correctly at just over 400 pts. As an example, today i went up against a dreadnought deathwatch list with flyers and killteam support. The two y'vahra i fielded melted a 5 man killteam and 3 dreadnaughts for the entire game. It does not make it points worthwhile if we just analyse kill, but it along with a few drones absorb an entire firepower of my opponent for the rest of the game. One ended along with a dozen drones died in the first two turns. In another game, it killed a 8 flamer nobs and one boyz before being vaporized...way underperform, but it did take the brunt of half of the opponent firepower and assault for two turns before dying....see the pattern. This vs my two quad fusion commander which manage two eliminate two corvusblackstar flyers and two dreadnaughts in two turns of shooting.....thats close to 900pts of enemy unit dead by a 320 pts for the two commander that did the dirty work. If i exchanged my two y'vahra for 5 additional quad fusion commanders, the game would have been over on the first turn instead of 3rd turn.
commander (quad fusion) - I only use two in my list to not anger my opponent and have a fun list to play with. This is the real deal and one of the few unit that can be considered overpowered as it is a character and has ungodly fire power. between the two of them, they usually killed 400 - 800 pts worth of enemy units easily each game (even vs ork hordes). Brutal and is ussualy the last few unit standing in the game. My opponent always focused on taking down y'vahra while the commander points and erase units behind drones and y'vahra. once my opponent destroyed the y'vahra, they realized who the real glass cannons are, but its most likely too late for them since their star unit would have been erased already by the commander. Having said that, the unit is not overly OP. Smart opponent can easily focus on it if they can somehow forget about the hulking y' vahra spewing scary plasma flamers at their front line units.
Drones (gun and shield) - the other MVP of almost every game. My opponent hate them to their guts. It made their high-quality shooting into garbage. Drones made the commander the star and made y'vahra a viable unit to play. without them there is no viable/competitive 8th edition tau army.
Pathfinders - i bring them to screen attacks like what most people use kroots and hounds. Their 7 inches scout move is golden. The special drones they bring can sometimes be an MVP against certain army build. For example in one of my games vs orks, the grav inhibitor drones which stays hidden in ruins managed to stop four charges which will be deadly if they are successful. At other games they are entirely useless. The ml that the pathfinder provide is rather situational. I probably use ml for the first two turns and fires its pulse carbine for the rest of their game...if they survived since they are a fire magnets.
Longstrike - a very mediocre unit that dies rather quickly there is no good way to protect it. In the game that it survives, it does insignificant amount of damage. I rather use it as fire magnets for first turn opponent shooting since most of my opponent happily shoots a character tanks without any extra drone protection. I am really considering its usage in my list.
devilfish - not bad, reduces my deployment setup significantly and gets the drone where they need to be. even an extra 3inch of extra movement for the disembarking drones matters alot in the first two turn of the game. my opponent tend to ignore it, so it gets free reign on midfield and up-field to take points and so on. if you can charge them into enemy tanks such as predators then its even better.
cold star- i use one as a drone nanny/character slayer/ objective grabber/ first turn aura/orders. super useful in term of utility. every tau list must include at least one. usually my warlord since it can run rather fast and opponent tend to ignore or being unable to shoot at it for the entire game.
Hope this helps.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Playing an assault/aggressive tau is a fresh change from my 7th edition battlesuit gunline tau. Its definitely much more challenging and more rewarding if it manage to outmaneuver and surprise the enemy. lots of potential mistake in term of positioning and firing order, but most of my opponent is totally unprepared to see an entire army shift more than 10 inches towards one direction in a turn, raining down tons of short-ranged firepower on them. I shelved my space marine army ever since i discovered this new tau playstyle.
trinhm03 wrote: What is your Tau play style? sit back and shoot or more aggressive movements
I'm leaning toward for a more aggressive Tau tactic that's up in the front ranks moving and shooting? Ghostkeel, Stealth suits, Crisis, devil fish+ Breach team ect.. Don't really know what else to field but I feel this tactic is weak to Dreadknots and obv close combat. Any Advise on this way of Tau?
How do you all feel about the Piranha in this type of strategy?
In my opinion Aggressive Mobility is the style of the Eldar, not the Tau.
Eldar dance dangerously, and gamble for great rewards.
Tau, are about Defensive Maneuvering. Constantly attempting to entrap and focus down key sections of the opponent's forces.
I prefer to keep half my army mobile, and half my army static.
The static part often acts as a sort of bait. Providing the opponent with a simple and clear tactical objective.
trinhm03 wrote: What is your Tau play style? sit back and shoot or more aggressive movements
I'm leaning toward for a more aggressive Tau tactic that's up in the front ranks moving and shooting? Ghostkeel, Stealth suits, Crisis, devil fish+ Breach team ect.. Don't really know what else to field but I feel this tactic is weak to Dreadknots and obv close combat. Any Advise on this way of Tau?
How do you all feel about the Piranha in this type of strategy?
I have a mobile gunline. So i tend to move forward witha good portion of the force with a firebase anchored behind me.
In my opinion Aggressive Mobility is the style of the Eldar, not the Tau.
Eldar dance dangerously, and gamble for great rewards.
Tau, are about Defensive Maneuvering. Constantly attempting to entrap and focus down key sections of the opponent's forces.
I prefer to keep half my army mobile, and half my army static.
The static part often acts as a sort of bait. Providing the opponent with a simple and clear tactical objective.
What would you consider mobile? Flyers, crisis, Ghostkeel, Drones?
I'm assuming the static units are strike teams, broadsides, tanks ect..
I understand movements are all situational, but are you using mobile units to bait the opponent to come out more so they become vulnerable to your static heavy hitters?
trinhm03 wrote: What is your Tau play style? sit back and shoot or more aggressive movements
I'm leaning toward for a more aggressive Tau tactic that's up in the front ranks moving and shooting? Ghostkeel, Stealth suits, Crisis, devil fish+ Breach team ect.. Don't really know what else to field but I feel this tactic is weak to Dreadknots and obv close combat. Any Advise on this way of Tau?
How do you all feel about the Piranha in this type of strategy?
In my opinion Aggressive Mobility is the style of the Eldar, not the Tau.
Eldar dance dangerously, and gamble for great rewards.
Tau, are about Defensive Maneuvering. Constantly attempting to entrap and focus down key sections of the opponent's forces.
I prefer to keep half my army mobile, and half my army static.
The static part often acts as a sort of bait. Providing the opponent with a simple and clear tactical objective.
We found the Kau'yon player
I prefer the Mont'ka style of hitting hard and fast, with overwhelming force, at the opponents weakest point to pierce their line like a lance
Turtlesoup wrote: Longstrike - a very mediocre unit that dies rather quickly there is no good way to protect it. In the game that it survives, it does insignificant amount of damage. I rather use it as fire magnets for first turn opponent shooting since most of my opponent happily shoots a character tanks without any extra drone protection. I am really considering its usage in my list.
Unless I misread a rule he is easy to protect and could be one off the hardest Tau targets in game to kill. Make him a warlord and get FNP from the war trait, put a bodyguard with stim injectors, and an Ethereal to invocate Stone near him. That’s T7, 13 wounds and if I am not mistaken 6 saves per wound. He can even tank mortal wounds like this. (EDIT was thinking commander, no stims on longstrike so 5 saves per wound?)
As for damage with the railgun he causes D3 mortal wounds on top of normal damage on a 5+ against vehicles or monsters. 4+ if you have +1BS from markers.
trinhm03 wrote: What is your Tau play style? sit back and shoot or more aggressive movements
I'm leaning toward for a more aggressive Tau tactic that's up in the front ranks moving and shooting? Ghostkeel, Stealth suits, Crisis, devil fish+ Breach team ect.. Don't really know what else to field but I feel this tactic is weak to Dreadknots and obv close combat. Any Advise on this way of Tau?
How do you all feel about the Piranha in this type of strategy?
In my opinion Aggressive Mobility is the style of the Eldar, not the Tau.
Eldar dance dangerously, and gamble for great rewards.
Tau, are about Defensive Maneuvering. Constantly attempting to entrap and focus down key sections of the opponent's forces.
I prefer to keep half my army mobile, and half my army static.
The static part often acts as a sort of bait. Providing the opponent with a simple and clear tactical objective.
We found the Kau'yon player
I prefer the Mont'ka style of hitting hard and fast, with overwhelming force, at the opponents weakest point to pierce their line like a lance
Preach it. I always loved being up and in the front lines dancing around hitting hard. Now I can't. All Tau can do now is gunline and sort of soft reposition. I don't want to buy 4 commanders for spam list either since it's so unfluffy.
Turtlesoup wrote: Longstrike - a very mediocre unit that dies rather quickly there is no good way to protect it. In the game that it survives, it does insignificant amount of damage. I rather use it as fire magnets for first turn opponent shooting since most of my opponent happily shoots a character tanks without any extra drone protection. I am really considering its usage in my list.
Unless I misread a rule he is easy to protect and could be one off the hardest Tau targets in game to kill. Make him a warlord and get FNP from the war trait, put a bodyguard with stim injectors, and an Ethereal to invocate Stone near him. That’s T7, 13 wounds and if I am not mistaken 6 saves per wound. He can even tank mortal wounds like this. (EDIT was thinking commander, no stims on longstrike so 5 saves per wound?)
As for damage with the railgun he causes D3 mortal wounds on top of normal damage on a 5+ against vehicles or monsters. 4+ if you have +1BS from markers.
Turtlesoup wrote: Longstrike - a very mediocre unit that dies rather quickly there is no good way to protect it. In the game that it survives, it does insignificant amount of damage. I rather use it as fire magnets for first turn opponent shooting since most of my opponent happily shoots a character tanks without any extra drone protection. I am really considering its usage in my list.
Unless I misread a rule he is easy to protect and could be one off the hardest Tau targets in game to kill. Make him a warlord and get FNP from the war trait, put a bodyguard with stim injectors, and an Ethereal to invocate Stone near him. That’s T7, 13 wounds and if I am not mistaken 6 saves per wound. He can even tank mortal wounds like this. (EDIT was thinking commander, no stims on longstrike so 5 saves per wound?)
As for damage with the railgun he causes D3 mortal wounds on top of normal damage on a 5+ against vehicles or monsters. 4+ if you have +1BS from markers.
Bodyguards cost too much to protect him.
Perhaps but I am not so sure on that. That shear amount of damage he can absorb like that seems worthwhile to me. Stick him near the front and absorb all those smites for example with little end damage. Its a great mortal wound soak. Even so you can still take the Ethereal or more likely Aun’Va and the possible warlord trait and try and go for x2 FNP without the bodyguard. Or x3 FNP on a commander suit.
Turtlesoup wrote: Longstrike - a very mediocre unit that dies rather quickly there is no good way to protect it. In the game that it survives, it does insignificant amount of damage. I rather use it as fire magnets for first turn opponent shooting since most of my opponent happily shoots a character tanks without any extra drone protection. I am really considering its usage in my list.
Unless I misread a rule he is easy to protect and could be one off the hardest Tau targets in game to kill. Make him a warlord and get FNP from the war trait, put a bodyguard with stim injectors, and an Ethereal to invocate Stone near him. That’s T7, 13 wounds and if I am not mistaken 6 saves per wound. He can even tank mortal wounds like this. (EDIT was thinking commander, no stims on longstrike so 5 saves per wound?)
As for damage with the railgun he causes D3 mortal wounds on top of normal damage on a 5+ against vehicles or monsters. 4+ if you have +1BS from markers.
getting 6+ feel no pain = to adding slightly more than two wounds on him....not nearly enough considering that many list out there can destroy a 20 wound stormsurge in a turn of shooting. The ethereals power do not work on vehicle. Making a warlord is just giving your opponent free slay the warlord victory point as he can be easily targeted by any units. 14 wound 3+ armor save is very very fragile for a unit that cannot hide behind drones and cost over 200 pts. As for damage the marker light does not boost his to wound roll which generate the d3 mortal wounds. its always on a 5+ for monster and vehicles and 6+ on everything else. So only a possible 9 wounds at long range....quite disappointing in all my games that i brought him. It is not possible to one shot a predator at long range where else the predator has a good chance to one shot him in one turn of shooting. Longstrike is a tank ace on a lousy over-priced tank.....too bad he is the closest viable long range unit for tau army.
Turtlesoup wrote: Longstrike - a very mediocre unit that dies rather quickly there is no good way to protect it. In the game that it survives, it does insignificant amount of damage. I rather use it as fire magnets for first turn opponent shooting since most of my opponent happily shoots a character tanks without any extra drone protection. I am really considering its usage in my list.
Unless I misread a rule he is easy to protect and could be one off the hardest Tau targets in game to kill. Make him a warlord and get FNP from the war trait, put a bodyguard with stim injectors, and an Ethereal to invocate Stone near him. That’s T7, 13 wounds and if I am not mistaken 6 saves per wound. He can even tank mortal wounds like this. (EDIT was thinking commander, no stims on longstrike so 5 saves per wound?)
As for damage with the railgun he causes D3 mortal wounds on top of normal damage on a 5+ against vehicles or monsters. 4+ if you have +1BS from markers.
BS doesn't affect Mortal Wound chance
Tho, I suppose it is possible to give him 3x 6+FNP as you illustrated
It would require Bodyguards with Stimulant and an Ethereal running along
Using Lascannons aimed at Longstrike
His basic survivability is 13 / (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 10.02 Lascannons
As a Warlord he goes from (13 / (5/6)) / (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 12.03 Lascannons
Bodyguards can increase this to technically be...
((13 / (5/6)) / (1/6)) / (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 72.20 Lascannon Shots... but you would need a TON of Bodyguards...
Since 72 Lascannons are what would kill you from essentially rolling 1s on the Bodyguard transfers
72.20 Lascannon Shots equals 72.20 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 5/6 * 3.5 = 77.99 Wounds that wound need to go onto Bodyguards, this is assuming Warlord otherwise it would be like ~93 Wounds.
Each Bodyguard is 3 mortal wounds base
With Stims it becomes (3 / (5/6)) = 3.6
With Stims AND Ethereal it becomes ((3 / (5/6)) / (5/6)) = 4.32 Mortal Wounds
77.99 / 4.32 = 18 Bodyguards surrounding Longstrike minimal!
Okay, that was just silly~
What about a single squad of 3 Bodyguards with Ethereal, roughly how much extra survivability to expect?
3 * 4.32 = 12.96 additional wounds
((13 / (5/6)) + 12.96) / (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 22.03 Lascannon Shots
Bodyguard are exactly 50 points with Stims, no guns... so 150
Ethereal is 45 points. So 195 points total
Overall, I think the idea is decent. However there are a lot of foundation issues with it.
1 - Longstrike is strong, but he isn't 400 points worth of defenses
2 - Hell, Longstrike is about 2/3rds the power/potential of a basic trash Las-Pred... So, it's arguable Longstrike is barely worth it even without protection...
3 - Crisis Suits are already overcosted, and Bodyguards are even more expensive
4 - The ideal weapon for Bodyguards would probably be something with a bit of range so that they can hang out with Longstrike. There are no good weapons currently with decent range, and the one that exist needs ATS.
I would say if the combo gets roughly 100 points cheaper, it might be worth using.
trinhm03 wrote: how does everyone feel about the xv-9 suits? Seems like a strong elite choice with 5 wounds and the extra ability to reduce models charging it.
Packing them with shield generators with 2 fusion cascades seems like they are right up in your face.
XV9s are much more interesting ins this edition - but only with TBBC or FC. The other 2 options are too weak.
Turtlesoup wrote: Longstrike - a very mediocre unit that dies rather quickly there is no good way to protect it. In the game that it survives, it does insignificant amount of damage. I rather use it as fire magnets for first turn opponent shooting since most of my opponent happily shoots a character tanks without any extra drone protection. I am really considering its usage in my list.
Unless I misread a rule he is easy to protect and could be one off the hardest Tau targets in game to kill. Make him a warlord and get FNP from the war trait, put a bodyguard with stim injectors, and an Ethereal to invocate Stone near him. That’s T7, 13 wounds and if I am not mistaken 6 saves per wound. He can even tank mortal wounds like this. (EDIT was thinking commander, no stims on longstrike so 5 saves per wound?)
As for damage with the railgun he causes D3 mortal wounds on top of normal damage on a 5+ against vehicles or monsters. 4+ if you have +1BS from markers.
BS doesn't affect Mortal Wound chance
Tho, I suppose it is possible to give him 3x 6+FNP as you illustrated
It would require Bodyguards with Stimulant and an Ethereal running along
Using Lascannons aimed at Longstrike
His basic survivability is 13 / (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 10.02 Lascannons
As a Warlord he goes from (13 / (5/6)) / (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 12.03 Lascannons
Bodyguards can increase this to technically be...
((13 / (5/6)) / (1/6)) / (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 72.20 Lascannon Shots... but you would need a TON of Bodyguards...
Since 72 Lascannons are what would kill you from essentially rolling 1s on the Bodyguard transfers
72.20 Lascannon Shots equals 72.20 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 5/6 * 3.5 = 77.99 Wounds that wound need to go onto Bodyguards, this is assuming Warlord otherwise it would be like ~93 Wounds.
Each Bodyguard is 3 mortal wounds base
With Stims it becomes (3 / (5/6)) = 3.6
With Stims AND Ethereal it becomes ((3 / (5/6)) / (5/6)) = 4.32 Mortal Wounds
77.99 / 4.32 = 18 Bodyguards surrounding Longstrike minimal!
Okay, that was just silly~
What about a single squad of 3 Bodyguards with Ethereal, roughly how much extra survivability to expect?
3 * 4.32 = 12.96 additional wounds
((13 / (5/6)) + 12.96) / (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 22.03 Lascannon Shots
Bodyguard are exactly 50 points with Stims, no guns... so 150
Ethereal is 45 points. So 195 points total
Overall, I think the idea is decent. However there are a lot of foundation issues with it.
1 - Longstrike is strong, but he isn't 400 points worth of defenses
2 - Hell, Longstrike is about 2/3rds the power/potential of a basic trash Las-Pred... So, it's arguable Longstrike is barely worth it even without protection...
3 - Crisis Suits are already overcosted, and Bodyguards are even more expensive
4 - The ideal weapon for Bodyguards would probably be something with a bit of range so that they can hang out with Longstrike. There are no good weapons currently with decent range, and the one that exist needs ATS.
I would say if the combo gets roughly 100 points cheaper, it might be worth using.
It could get pricy and thanks for the corrections on BS. The way I see it is you already have a squad of Crisis it’s worthwhile to think about upgrading them to bodyguards with stims for Long strike. Personally I would take Aun’Va over a basic Ethereal and the idea would most likely work better on a 3 crisis, 1 commander build with an extra stim pack on the commander. As I understand it you can roll the armor save & stim for a total of x3 FNP on the commander. Then pass the wound to the bodyguards and use another x2 FNP so up to 6 saves per wound. Aun’Va can cast two powers; he can do the same power twice on different targets?
Anyway it’s not a must have tactic, just something to keep in mind.
It could get pricy and thanks for the corrections on BS. The way I see it is you already have a squad of Crisis it’s worthwhile to think about upgrading them to bodyguards with stims for Long strike. Personally I would take Aun’Va over a basic Ethereal and the idea would most likely work better on a 3 crisis, 1 commander build with an extra stim pack on the commander. As I understand it you can roll the armor save & stim for a total of x3 FNP on the commander. Then pass the wound to the bodyguards and use another x2 FNP so up to 6 saves per wound. Aun’Va can cast two powers; he can do the same power twice on different targets?
Anyway it’s not a must have tactic, just something to keep in mind.
Aun'va can't call the same ability twice, even if he could. They wouldn't stack.
You would need the Commander infront of the army for this to work
If Stims went back to being 5+++ saves this would be a pretty great tactic.
Let's see
((((6 / (5/6)) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (5/6)) = 14.92 effective mortal wounds
((((6 / (5/6)) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (1/2)) = 29.85 wounds if you take shield for 4++
((((6 / (5/6)) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (1/3)) = 44.78 wounds if you're allowed normal armor saves
((((6 / (5/6)) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (1/3)) = 37.32 wounds if you drop the stims on the commander
((((6 / (4/6)) / (4/6) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (1/3)) = 69.98 effective wounds if you're allowed normal armor saves and they buff stims back to 5+++
Seems like it might be a decent distraction carnifax?
The weak point of this list tho is probably still the Crisis Bodyguards, tho a swarm of Drones would help that
potential Deathstar?
Listening to the latest frontline and Reece has implied GW has heard the Riptide complaints at least and he will be adjusted. Even he admits the Riptide "couldn't get any more useless."
This brings me hope they take a look at the rest of the book and rebalance commanders so they don't need to be spammed (but we still need good anti-tank).
I'd say points decrease for Crisis suits and increase Crisis Bodyguards to BS3+. Also a points drop for Broadsides.
I don't get why Crisis Bodyguards are the same BS as regular Crisis teams. Fluffwise being in the bodyguard of the commander is the final combat service step before becoming a Commander yourself, they're the cream of Fire Caste infantry with the most experience, except for commander units. Increasing them to BS3+ would serve to highlight that, providing a unit which actually falls between regular crisis teams and commanders in terms of shooting effectiveness.
A Town Called Malus wrote: I'd say points decrease for Crisis suits and increase Crisis Bodyguards to BS3+. Also a points drop for Broadsides.
I don't get why Crisis Bodyguards are the same BS as regular Crisis teams. Fluffwise being in the bodyguard of the commander is the final combat service step before becoming a Commander yourself, they're the cream of Fire Caste infantry with the most experience, except for commander units. Increasing them to BS3+ would serve to highlight that, providing a unit which actually falls between regular crisis teams and commanders in terms of shooting effectiveness.
I think if they did buff Bodyguards to BS3+ no one would take regular old Crisis suits anymore. They would have to either significantly decrease the cost of regular Crisis suits (please GW please?) or increase the cost of bodyguards. I'm not sure what the right answer is, although fluffwise you're definitely onto something and I could see it making sense from that viewpoint.
A Town Called Malus wrote: I'd say points decrease for Crisis suits and increase Crisis Bodyguards to BS3+. Also a points drop for Broadsides.
I don't get why Crisis Bodyguards are the same BS as regular Crisis teams. Fluffwise being in the bodyguard of the commander is the final combat service step before becoming a Commander yourself, they're the cream of Fire Caste infantry with the most experience, except for commander units. Increasing them to BS3+ would serve to highlight that, providing a unit which actually falls between regular crisis teams and commanders in terms of shooting effectiveness.
I think if they did buff Bodyguards to BS3+ no one would take regular old Crisis suits anymore. They would have to either significantly decrease the cost of regular Crisis suits (please GW please?) or increase the cost of bodyguards. I'm not sure what the right answer is, although fluffwise you're definitely onto something and I could see it making sense from that viewpoint.
Oh yeah, it would definitely warrant a bigger points difference between regular and bodyguard XV8's than we have now. Would also like to see a buff and corresponding points increase to Plasma Rifles, either with extra range or more strength. I mean, the Imperiums new plasma guns for their Primaris have 30" range and the Crisis plasma rifles have longer barrels which imply greater accuracy, not to mention that we no longer have the "Doesn't get hot" advantage as the Imperium plasma weapons now no longer get hot unless they fire an even more powerful attack. So whereas before we sacrificed a point of strength to not get hot we now effectively sacrifice 2 points of strength and a point of damage.
A Town Called Malus wrote: I'd say points decrease for Crisis suits and increase Crisis Bodyguards to BS3+. Also a points drop for Broadsides.
I don't get why Crisis Bodyguards are the same BS as regular Crisis teams. Fluffwise being in the bodyguard of the commander is the final combat service step before becoming a Commander yourself, they're the cream of Fire Caste infantry with the most experience, except for commander units. Increasing them to BS3+ would serve to highlight that, providing a unit which actually falls between regular crisis teams and commanders in terms of shooting effectiveness.
I think if they did buff Bodyguards to BS3+ no one would take regular old Crisis suits anymore. They would have to either significantly decrease the cost of regular Crisis suits (please GW please?) or increase the cost of bodyguards. I'm not sure what the right answer is, although fluffwise you're definitely onto something and I could see it making sense from that viewpoint.
Crisis Bodyguards are there for the special ability to protect the Commander. Giving them 3+ BS would create more problems than it would solve, namely, what would the point of markerlights be? Give them +2 BS with re roll 1's? Do you have any idea how much hate we would get if we hit on a 2+ with re roll 1's on units other than a commander? Do you have any idea how much points cost would increase on the bodyguards? As much as I like the idea no thanks. I like them cheap so my Commander is protected when all my drones are gone.
I do think we may see changes to Plasma Rifles in our new codex. All the rules changed across the board for Marines, Primaris Marines, and Chaos Marines Plasma Technology. They need to update Tau and Eldar because these 2 races are supposed to have the most advanced plasma tech in the galaxy according to fluff. Also, we may see changes to other weapons, and hopefully we can equip a brand new weapon on our crisis suits, that I wish for more than anything ATM.
Gamgee wrote: Listening to the latest frontline and Reece has implied GW has heard the Riptide complaints at least and he will be adjusted. Even he admits the Riptide "couldn't get any more useless."
This brings me hope they take a look at the rest of the book and rebalance commanders so they don't need to be spammed (but we still need good anti-tank).
Oh yeah. After seeing point and rules changes in SM, CSM and GK codexes, I'm assured things will change for us too. And for the better!
I do think we may see changes to Plasma Rifles in our new codex. All the rules changed across the board for Marines, Primaris Marines, and Chaos Marines Plasma Technology. They need to update Tau and Eldar because these 2 races are supposed to have the most advanced plasma tech in the galaxy according to fluff. Also, we may see changes to other weapons, and hopefully we can equip a brand new weapon on our crisis suits, that I wish for more than anything ATM.
Tau plasma has explicitly NOT been more advanced than the Imperium's. Merely more reliable. Imperial plasma guns were hotter (higher STR) and they had bigger plasma weapons (plamsa cannons, etc), but were unstable because most of the guns were either thousands of years old or assembled by people working by rote, not people who understood the technology.
In 8th, imperial plasma (including Chaos, really) became more reliable, but it now can be dialed up to unstable levels. I think this is a great rules option, and the Tau have something similar in Ion weaponry. I wouldn't be surprised if Tau plasma jumped to S7, but was unable to overcharge (keeping with the reliable theme), but then I'd expect its points cost to jump.
I don't see Crisis suits getting new guns, as GW is very much headed in the direction of "If it's not in the box, it's not an option".
As for the Eldar, the Starcannon doesn't need upgrading. 36" Heavy2 S6 AP-3 D3 is pretty good compared to a Plasma Cannon (the 3 damage is fantastic).
I do think we may see changes to Plasma Rifles in our new codex. All the rules changed across the board for Marines, Primaris Marines, and Chaos Marines Plasma Technology. They need to update Tau and Eldar because these 2 races are supposed to have the most advanced plasma tech in the galaxy according to fluff. Also, we may see changes to other weapons, and hopefully we can equip a brand new weapon on our crisis suits, that I wish for more than anything ATM.
Tau plasma has explicitly NOT been more advanced than the Imperium's. Merely more reliable. Imperial plasma guns were hotter (higher STR) and they had bigger plasma weapons (plamsa cannons, etc), but were unstable because most of the guns were either thousands of years old or assembled by people working by rote, not people who understood the technology.
In 8th, imperial plasma (including Chaos, really) became more reliable, but it now can be dialed up to unstable levels. I think this is a great rules option, and the Tau have something similar in Ion weaponry. I wouldn't be surprised if Tau plasma jumped to S7, but was unable to overcharge (keeping with the reliable theme), but then I'd expect its points cost to jump.
I don't see Crisis suits getting new guns, as GW is very much headed in the direction of "If it's not in the box, it's not an option".
As for the Eldar, the Starcannon doesn't need upgrading. 36" Heavy2 S6 AP-3 D3 is pretty good compared to a Plasma Cannon (the 3 damage is fantastic).
To be more accurate...
Tau had Ion that had a unique mechanic
It allowed you to shoot it normally or overcharge which caused to get hot for an additional strength
In contrast to Plasma Weaponry, Ion was balanced by the fact it had poor AP
In 8e, they basically said "That's a cool mechanic, let's just make that standard on all Plasma Weapons for a different army."
With the new reduced point costs, the classic Plasma profile would be considered good. Now they are just overpowered.
The new Plasma Rules for Imperium is one of the broken changes in 8e, they should have just reverted them all back with the Codex releases.
Edit
As far as Fluff is concerned, Tau has shown to develop a more advanced version of the Plasma Weapon compared to that of the Imperium.
The main difference is that Tau prefer using EM Weaponry instead of Plasma. As they have decided they can get more power from it, much more safely.
Tau does spam the crud out of Plasma Weaponry, their most common gun is a blend of Plasma and EM Technology...
Every gun called "Pulse" is using Plasma.
John Prins wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if Tau plasma jumped to S7, but was unable to overcharge (keeping with the reliable theme), but then I'd expect its points cost to jump.
An Imperial plasmagun is only 2p more expensive than our plasma rifle for lots more efficiency. I don't see the point of increasing the cost of ours (if they jack up their S to 7) if theirs will still be more cost-effective, but at least ours will make sense as 'safer without overcharging'.
Or even keep the S6, but give it D2.
So I got a couple of games in with suit spam tau, I'll write a short batrep below and draw my conclusion, wonder what everyone thinks.
List
2x quad fusion
2x coldstar
3x3 stealth with homer and drone controller
1x4 flamer crisis
1x3 CiB crisis
1x3 plasma crisis
Couple of gundrone squadrons
everything but the stealth/commanders had max gun drones.
Game 1, the relic vs:
2x daemon prince
6x10 tzaangors in double storm bolter rhinos
3 maulerfiends.
big blob of flamers
Early game, he goes first, jump everything on the relic. I deployed stealth out of maulerfiend/DP charge range, but not too far back warptimed prince.couls make it.
He piles all the rhinos on the relic and charges 1 stealth team, With warp timing daemon prince (took the bait) between him rolling a lot of 2s to hit and me making some saves I end up with 1 surviving stealth member.
In my turn I deepstrike everything besides the plasma suits(more.on this later) and I have 2 drop zones, hoping to split his forces a bit.
My flamer suits light up his flamers, killing most, my fusion commander sticks 4 wounds on his daemon princes and he makes 4/4 5+ saves....
my other fusion commander sticks 4 wounds on his maulerfiend and he makes 3/4 5+ saves!! argh. I end up shooting most of my firebase (bunch of gun drones, 2 cold stars, stealth teams, at his daemon prince, taking it to 1 wound, the CiB team shot up the maulerfiend and ended up doing around doing a couple of wounds, down to about 7.
I charge a coldstar and the fusion commander into the 1 wound DP, flamers suits gundrones charge 2 rhinos, and a stealth team charge 2 more.
in combat the coldstar kills the Deal on prince, rest does nothing really.
His turn, rhinos reverse and a bunch of tZaangors have gotten out. his other daemon prince, 1 unit of ghors and a fiend go for the commanders who just killed the prince, the wounded maulerfiend and 1 Unit of ghors goes for my other fusion commanders. last fiend and 2 units of ghost go for the drones that just charged the rhino and the final unit of ghors go for my stealth team which is fighting a rhino.
So I'm clenching my buttocks.
ghors tank almost all my overwatch, his deamon prince attacks my (warlord) coldstar but I role hot on saves (shield gen !) and he takes 3 wounds.
The fusion commander next to him takes a bunch of damage from the ghors and fiend, surviving with 2 wounds.
My drones and other quad fusion commander die miserably. All in all really not as bad as I was expecting !
In my turn everything retreats, plasma crisis join the party and the daemon prince passes 3 5++ from my fusion guns again. (10/11 for those keeping score)
I end up killing a fiend and the prince (and a lot of ghors as well as just last flamers)
The rest of the battle involves me kiting, declaring a devastating kouyun turn 3, wiping out all the infantry and starting to kill the rhinos really fast. he concedes.
Crisis and stealth team in this game were really really good at taking damage and tanking through it. But their damage output is really mediocre.
I have turn 1, deploy and deep strike aggressively, kill or charge all the devs and stick 11 wounds oan the raven.
In his turn he has real trouble placing his deep striking units as I have sealed off a large portion of the table.
His charges are long range and take a lot of overwatch. Mephiston charges a fusion suit, take a hit/wound in.overwatch and dies horrible. some death company make it into my quad commander but can't kill it, he kills 2!
we play a second turn but after I delete 90% of his army, kill the raven, a razorback and astorath(ha remembered the name) he conceded.
The good
Fusion commanders&gun drones
stealth, -1 and 2+ in cover is good. But the deployment is sooo awesome and the homing beacons allow for some crazy turn 1 attacks.
the decent:
Coldstars, but mostly because I didn't need their mobility in these games, I.think they're good/great
Crisis. Flamer crisis are amazing but rolling their stuff is tedious
CiB... okay, not really pulling.their weight
The rubbish
plasma crisis.
No idea what they're good against. First game I kept them jb reserve because everyhing was still in rhinos, but even sfter they got out they suck vs ghors. They're bad againdt rhinos. They're not very.good vs marines. Only bright glimmer was them in rapid fire range under kouyon...Their best use was brining drones up the field.
I think for crisis suits, the tanking power is awesome! T5 3W really shines. Damage output is pathetic (except for the flamers) for points spend.
I'll try out xv9s next as I really just want to deepstrike gundrones and xv9s can bring 4 each!
In 8e, they basically said "That's a cool mechanic, let's just make that standard on all Plasma Weapons for a different army."
It would have been a great rule if imperial plasma had dropped to S6 'safe' and S7 'gets hot'. Now we end up with OP plasma troops because there are many, many ways to get re-rolls on 1's.
The Tidewall Gunrig is starting to become a main unit in my army it can be really good backed up with marker lights. With +1BS and reroll’s 1’s those 2 shots can do high damage. Last night it won man of the match when it did 15 wounds on turn 1 killing a 13 wound target. It massively out damaged Longstrike. With marker support broadsides and Gunrigs have so much more damage potential then Longstrike and hammerheads.
The droneport as well makes a really nice markerplatforms. 1 Fireblade, 9 pathfinders and 4 marker drones. That’s 5 markers that hit on 2+ so what I do is put 2 on one enemy unit, then 3 on another. Then split fire the pathfinders to try and get 1`+ BS on two enemy units. It also helps the Rail rifles to stay alive.
Pottsey wrote: The Tidewall Gunrig is starting to become a main unit in my army it can be really good backed up with marker lights. With +1BS and reroll’s 1’s those 2 shots can do high damage. Last night it won man of the match when it did 15 wounds on turn 1 killing a 13 wound target. It massively out damaged Longstrike. With marker support broadsides and Gunrigs have so much more damage potential then Longstrike and hammerheads.
Unless you are expecting to come up against a lot of 2+ saves, then 3 Flamers is the better option. Against MEQs 3 flamers is equal to 2+ATS. Against GEQs, the triple flamer has higher damage output. The only scenario it is better to have 2 flamers and an ATS is against models with 2+ saves.
3 Flamer suits also have a higher damage potential if you roll hot on your hits and wounds and/or your opponent rolls cold on their saves. You can theoretically get up to 18 wounds out of a triple flamer suit vs 12 for a dual flamer suit.
Unless you are expecting to come up against a lot of 2+ saves, then 3 Flamers is the better option. Against MEQs 3 flamers is equal to 2+ATS. Against GEQs, the triple flamer has higher damage output. The only scenario it is better to have 2 flamers and an ATS is against models with 2+ saves.
3 Flamer suits also have a higher damage potential if you roll hot on your hits and wounds and/or your opponent rolls cold on their saves. You can theoretically get up to 18 wounds out of a triple flamer suit vs 12 for a dual flamer suit.
There is technically 1 more scenario in which 2+ATS is advantageous...
It's not often spoken of, but it's still true...
Close Combat XD
ATS works in Melee too
2~3x S5 AP-1 Attacks? Not bad
Just need to ignore that painful 5+ to hit...
They really should make Farsight's Way of the Short Blade be a +1 WS for Suits within 6"
Pottsey wrote: The Tidewall Gunrig is starting to become a main unit in my army it can be really good backed up with marker lights. With +1BS and reroll’s 1’s those 2 shots can do high damage. Last night it won man of the match when it did 15 wounds on turn 1 killing a 13 wound target. It massively out damaged Longstrike. With marker support broadsides and Gunrigs have so much more damage potential then Longstrike and hammerheads.
Story checks out, but there are some minor issues with using the Gunrig, but overall Nice.
When I said more damage potential I was more thinking about the lines of peak damage. What I came to realise in the last few games is it’s not just about average damage sometimes it’s about peak damage potential that matters. Broadsides and Gunrigs can potentially kill at long range 13+ wound targets in 1 turn that hammerheads and Long take 2 turns to kill even when Long has the higher average damage. Saying that the Hamerheads are more flexible due to the movement advantage and sub ammo for when there are no suitable big targets.
Haechi wrote: Are flamer crisis playable without homing beacon? and if so, how?
They are playable certainly. You just run the risk of them getting shot to pieces before they do anything. If your board has full cover terrain sure why not, but they really are amazing with the homing beacon imo.
Pottsey wrote: When I said more damage potential I was more thinking about the lines of peak damage. What I came to realise in the last few games is it’s not just about average damage sometimes it’s about peak damage potential that matters. Broadsides and Gunrigs can potentially kill at long range 13+ wound targets in 1 turn that hammerheads and Long take 2 turns to kill even when Long has the higher average damage. Saying that the Hamerheads are more flexible due to the movement advantage and sub ammo for when there are no suitable big targets.
but... the math proved you right.
They do have potential to be our best long range anti tank.
Well done on spreading the info on a rarely used, yet incredibly powerful unit.
Lower was better in the math you quoted, it means costs less points for the average damage.
Which means that not only do they have a great maximum as you stated, but they have a pretty good average.
Their downside of course is pretty insane deviation... The standard expectation is for them to miss.
They basically NEED support to function.
While it carries the chance for epic turns, the chance of it happening are quite low. It's literally gambling at that point, which I'm personally not a fan.
Well obviously they're not gonna punch dedicated melee troops, but as unit that swings around and ties up gun units, using their speed to flit around, maybe?
I dunno.
Just spitballing here. They need to survive more than do damage. In theory.
It’s taking a bit of getting used to with a change of mind-set but I am finding it’s often very useful now for Tau to charge into CC. Multiple times now I have benefited from charging in tanks and/or suits with fly into CC, then withdraw, shoot and charge next turn. Against sensible targets of course. It’s one of the reasons why I now take ATS and use more shield drones over pure gun drones.
Due to the FNP change I have also been using units made up of 4 shield drones. They just park on objects or when possible hide out of LOS then move/advanced on the last turn. I also use them to CC things to slow them down. Been working well so far. I gained 4 VP by thing this in my last game.
trinhm03 wrote: Does anyone feel that having some forgeworld units (y'vahra, xv-9, Shas, ect.) in your 2k army help out the tau shooting power?
I've been finding that the Ghostkeel, Commanders, and boardsides are getting picked off too quick.
I am currently fielding 2 commanders, 1 ghostkeel and 3 broadsides in my 2k army. Also a unit of 3 crisis suits as well.
The Y'Vhara REALLY helps increase the firepower of the army, and really, the Tau need the help until we get our codex. Anyone complaining about Tau using FW units really haven't made the effort to examine and compare what Tau currently have compared to other armies.
Got my Y'vahra the other day and I'm in progress of building it. I'm really eager to try it on the table and I would like ro hear some experiences of you guys. I'm trying to figure out how to keep up drones with it's speed to have some protection in midfield.
I've had decent luck just running drones up the table and moving the Y'Vahra somewhat defensively until an obvious target presents itself. I also rather enjoy moving them full-speed-ahead and dropping in my Commanders and maybe some flamer suits near them for drone support. That's a big pain in your opponent's butt since they basically need to kill all that stuff immediately or get fried again the next turn, and that's going to take a bunch of firepower. It's basically an unassaultable group of guys, too, thanks to all the flamers going on.
trinhm03 wrote:Does anyone feel that having some forgeworld units (y'vahra, xv-9, Shas, ect.) in your 2k army help out the tau shooting power?
I've been finding that the Ghostkeel, Commanders, and boardsides are getting picked off too quick.
I am currently fielding 2 commanders, 1 ghostkeel and 3 broadsides in my 2k army. Also a unit of 3 crisis suits as well.
I haven't tested them yet, but I guess some of them are really interesting - like the HYMP and HBC Hammerhead variants, XV9s, Y'vhara and Tigersharks. The other stuff... meh.
Vineheart01 wrote:sooo...speaking forgeworld...
How do people view the Ta'unar now? kinda feels like it got hit with the nerfbat hardcore to me.
And is it just me or did they eff up and the Tigershark ISNT a Titanic, yet it has a Macro weapon? (on a flier with minimum move at that...) lol....
You're a bit late to the bus - FW's FAQ already addressed AX-1-0 situation with its guns.
Ta'unar is useful if you have a LOT of drones near it. Without those drones, it'll die pretty fast against any real super-heavy. If I'm not mistaken, a Hierophant Bio-Titan can kill a Ta'unar in one turn (without drornes nearby).
Ta'unar's firepower... eh. A Revenant Titan is much more killy for not even 50-ish points more
What are the anti-vehicle options? I'm thinking more along the lines of killing T8 like Leman Russ and the like.
Longstrike + Hammerhead seems better than 2x Broadsides. Little more expensive, but doesn't require 5 Markerlights, only 1 really for maximum effectiveness.
There's also the suicide squad stealth suits delivering quad-fusion commanders via homing beacon.
Any other options?
I'm not a fan of the Tidewall Gunrig - I'd rather take a Longstrike for better average damage than gamble on the better potential, but that's just me.
Also full disclosure I haven't read all 44 pages, so if this topic was covered already do let me know.
What are the anti-vehicle options? I'm thinking more along the lines of killing T8 like Leman Russ and the like.
Longstrike + Hammerhead seems better than 2x Broadsides. Little more expensive, but doesn't require 5 Markerlights, only 1 really for maximum effectiveness.
There's also the suicide squad stealth suits delivering quad-fusion commanders via homing beacon.
Any other options?
I'm not a fan of the Tidewall Gunrig - I'd rather take a Longstrike for better average damage than gamble on the better potential, but that's just me.
Also full disclosure I haven't read all 44 pages, so if this topic was covered already do let me know.
You are asking a great question, and outside of missing a commander with 4 fusion blasters, pretty much hit all of our "effective" anti armor
for serious anti-tank, these are our best options (hope I didn't forget anything)
The most effective in my experience are the 4 fusion Commanders, and the Y'Vahra. I haven't used the Gunrig, but Broadsides and Hammerheads just don't put out enough hurt to me. Even assuming best case scenarios, it still takes multiple turns to wipe out something like a rhino with a Hammerhead. The 4 fusion Commander puts out enough hurt to kill a good number of tanks in one turn, and the drones can help keep it alive longer than a Hammerhead as well. Just like the last few editions, multiple shots is already going to be better than one with dealing with tanks.
I wouldn't include Broadsides on a list of "best" anything. They're monstrously overcosted right now. Otherwise, those are all viable options for heavy armor control. You could even opt for weight of fire with drones if your target has a 3+.
The Ta'unar has poor (but not atrocious) firepower for the points, especially considering how readily available and cheap its small arms options are. However, being a battlesuit is a downright awesome. Surround your tuna with a drone swarm, and merrily pawn off titan-killing shots as you quickly whittle down your opponent.
MilkmanAl wrote: I wouldn't include Broadsides on a list of "best" anything. They're monstrously overcosted right now. Otherwise, those are all viable options for heavy armor control. You could even opt for weight of fire with drones if your target has a 3+.
Maybe the HRR/PR version, coupled with some drones, can do a bit of a mess to the enemy lines. I'm yet to try it and doesn't hit the 170p line.
I find it to be expensive on paper. I'll try to test it this week
Haechi wrote: Are flamer crisis playable without homing beacon? and if so, how?
They're really not too bad just starting on the table. Since Flamers have no hit roll, they have no penalty for advancing, which gives them a pretty good threat range. And, even if your opponent does shoot at them while they're still out of range, then they're not shooting at your other units, that CAN shoot them right that turn.
What are the anti-vehicle options? I'm thinking more along the lines of killing T8 like Leman Russ and the like.
Longstrike + Hammerhead seems better than 2x Broadsides. Little more expensive, but doesn't require 5 Markerlights, only 1 really for maximum effectiveness.
There's also the suicide squad stealth suits delivering quad-fusion commanders via homing beacon.
Any other options?
I'm not a fan of the Tidewall Gunrig - I'd rather take a Longstrike for better average damage than gamble on the better potential, but that's just me.
Also full disclosure I haven't read all 44 pages, so if this topic was covered already do let me know.
With marker support the Gunrig gets better average damage and more potential damage then Longstrike. The gunrig has 2 shots a turn so you expect with better then 50% chance to hit for 1 hit a turn matching Longstrike but potentially 2 hits for double the damage of what longstrike can do in 1 turn all for less points. Personally I prefer a gunrig with 7 pathfinders for the price of Longstrike. Krrotox can also dish out some decent damage. Or 4 small Firewarrior teams with 4 missile pods and pulse range extend drone.
I'm gonna play 2 broadsides with HRR and velocity tracker, with a pocket Ethereal with them. It's 4 fusion shots with 60" range and 3+ reroll 1 against flyers. I think it can work.
Ok so I have been meaning to check in a while ago but the Battle report wasn't done added on a whole new job thing so life is just busy.
Played a 1600 point game and I learned some things.
One is don't charge unless you are trying to lock someone up for a turn. If you do charge throw the 2 drone squad first to eat up the over-watch. (smart).
Kroot are nothing without cover. I had 30 and only 2 survived the bullets. Additional note, the space marines have a 12 shot gatling gun rhino attachment S6 -1AP. It will become more common place in future game once people catch on. Extra Extra note: the 30 Kroot, Etherial on drone and his drones point wise will not be spent for 2-5man drone squads a fire-blade, and a transport. (only 7pts more)
I will always run two fusion commanders form here on out. If I had two fusion commanders the Crusader would have been toast on the turn they came in.
Strike teams, though I still love the range of the gun. A space marine in cover is a pain to kill. Yes we would on 3's but they get a 2+save. This brings me to a point that was made elsewhere by others but pathfinders with optional guns are the way to go for me in the future. I say this because they can take a Grav-drone and when the squad is in a deep cover like trees or a crater it is now a -4in to the charge distance for the unit charging. With the additional drones to aid in the cover the Grav-drone it brings the cost up but they are not as chargeable
I know the math hammer people will shun me for this but plasma rifles and a shield generator. I am saying this because of the lack of armor punch our good old S5 guns deal. I did above wounds on space-marines in cover and all of them lived. Math said I should have killed 3-4 of them. Plasma rifles have the bite needed to punch armor without the need for an ATS. The shield generator gives the protection from the plasma rifle shots because the drones will be dead long before those shots get fired.
Ishotfirst wrote: ath said I should have killed 3-4 of them. Plasma rifles have the bite needed to punch armor without the need for an ATS. The shield generator gives the protection from the plasma rifle shots because the drones will be dead long before those shots get fired.
Plasma isn't bad against marines, but CIBs, mathematically, will do more (with or without ATS) until you manage to get on half range with plasma. And, well, 18" is safer than 12"
Am considering a crisis team with double fusions and shield each as a distraction fex/ hold it in reserve and react to heavy armour with it. Anyone else tried the load out?
Additional note, the space marines have a 12 shot gatling gun rhino attachment S6 -1AP. It will become more common place in future game once people catch on.
Strike teams, though I still love the range of the gun. A space marine in cover is a pain to kill. Yes we would on 3's but they get a 2+save. This brings me to a point that was made elsewhere by others but pathfinders with optional guns are the way to go for me in the future. I say this because they can take a grab-drone and when the squad is in a deep cover like trees or a crater it is now a -4in to the charge distance for the unit charging. With the additional drones to aid in the cover the Grav-drone it brings the cost up but they are not as chargeable
No it doesn't
At best Rhino can take RF4 Bolters
Razorback on the other hand is the one with that gun, and Razorback spam is OP as hell! It's a Tournament level Build.
I've been advocating the usage of Pathfinders with Ion Rifles for a while now. Strike Teams are basically useless vs Marines.
2+ Armor vs 4+ Armor is massive!
Edit
4+ Armor 2x your EHP
2+ Armor 6x your EHP
Not to mention the fact that Pathfinders will have d3 shots, wound on 2+, and can shoot at Tanks.
doc1234 wrote: Am considering a crisis team with double fusions and shield each as a distraction fex/ hold it in reserve and react to heavy armour with it. Anyone else tried the load out?
I think you'd be better off using the slot for a 3rd weapon or a system, and give them Shield drones.
doc1234 wrote: Am considering a crisis team with double fusions and shield each as a distraction fex/ hold it in reserve and react to heavy armour with it. Anyone else tried the load out?
I think you'd be better off using the slot for a 3rd weapon or a system, and give them Shield drones.
So tripfusion team is the way to go then. Well I had been meaning to get some more shield drones lol
Additional note, the space marines have a 12 shot gatling gun rhino attachment S6 -1AP. It will become more common place in future game once people catch on.
Strike teams, though I still love the range of the gun. A space marine in cover is a pain to kill. Yes we would on 3's but they get a 2+save. This brings me to a point that was made elsewhere by others but pathfinders with optional guns are the way to go for me in the future. I say this because they can take a grab-drone and when the squad is in a deep cover like trees or a crater it is now a -4in to the charge distance for the unit charging. With the additional drones to aid in the cover the Grav-drone it brings the cost up but they are not as chargeable
No it doesn't
At best Rhino can take RF4 Bolters
Razorback on the other hand is the one with that gun, and Razorback spam is OP as hell! It's a Tournament level Build.
I've been advocating the usage of Pathfinders with Ion Rifles for a while now. Strike Teams are basically useless vs Marines.
2+ Armor vs 4+ Armor is massive!
Edit
4+ Armor 2x your EHP
2+ Armor 6x your EHP
Not to mention the fact that Pathfinders will have d3 shots, wound on 2+, and can shoot at Tanks.
Checked he list and yes they were razorbacks. The game was a mockup for the upcoming tournament he is going into so yes a lot of noise was brought. But knowing my opponent makes me believe he would have brought them anyway.
Wakshaani wrote: Now I'm wondering how viable Crisis suits are with an ATS and no other weapons, used as a mobile melee unit.
Because I'm a madman.
They're not going to hit a shed even if they were inside of it. Better to have some weapons there.
I just played a game thinking my T'au suits could do something to that effect. It's a bad idea.... really bad math hammer aside. Be mobile and shooting things putting something in the way to prevent a worse charge.
doc1234 wrote: Am considering a crisis team with double fusions and shield each as a distraction fex/ hold it in reserve and react to heavy armour with it. Anyone else tried the load out?
I think you'd be better off using the slot for a 3rd weapon or a system, and give them Shield drones.
So tripfusion team is the way to go then. Well I had been meaning to get some more shield drones lol
Just had a game vs chaos where my fusion commander with 3 fusions and 1 shield gen dropped behind a heldrake. Failed to wound with a shot and he made 2 5+ inv saves. He then caused 2 wounds in the shooting phase, and then I failed 5 out of 7 4+ inv saves lol. This got me thinking though, it seems fusion blasters can be ineffective vs targets with an inv save, you need alot of them to get through bad dice and inv saves from your opponent. At the moment I am trying a list using a few Crisis squads with ATS and 2 missile pods and seeing how that goes with some Coldstar Commanders. The range and flexibility will certainly help I think over fusion blasters.
doc1234 wrote: Am considering a crisis team with double fusions and shield each as a distraction fex/ hold it in reserve and react to heavy armour with it. Anyone else tried the load out?
I think you'd be better off using the slot for a 3rd weapon or a system, and give them Shield drones.
So tripfusion team is the way to go then. Well I had been meaning to get some more shield drones lol
Just had a game vs chaos where my fusion commander with 3 fusions and 1 shield gen dropped behind a heldrake. Failed to wound with a shot and he made 2 5+ inv saves. He then caused 2 wounds in the shooting phase, and then I failed 5 out of 7 4+ inv saves lol. This got me thinking though, it seems fusion blasters can be ineffective vs targets with an inv save, you need alot of them to get through bad dice and inv saves from your opponent. At the moment I am trying a list using a few Crisis squads with ATS and 2 missile pods and seeing how that goes with some Coldstar Commanders. The range and flexibility will certainly help I think over fusion blasters.
3 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 3.5 = 3.88 damage
I think the problem is you heavily overestimated your firepower
even if you went 4 FBs (4 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 3.5 = 5.18) you wasn't really close.
Tho you're not wrong in saying that our Fire Power across the board is severely lacking.
doc1234 wrote: Am considering a crisis team with double fusions and shield each as a distraction fex/ hold it in reserve and react to heavy armour with it. Anyone else tried the load out?
I think you'd be better off using the slot for a 3rd weapon or a system, and give them Shield drones.
So tripfusion team is the way to go then. Well I had been meaning to get some more shield drones lol
Just had a game vs chaos where my fusion commander with 3 fusions and 1 shield gen dropped behind a heldrake. Failed to wound with a shot and he made 2 5+ inv saves. He then caused 2 wounds in the shooting phase, and then I failed 5 out of 7 4+ inv saves lol. This got me thinking though, it seems fusion blasters can be ineffective vs targets with an inv save, you need alot of them to get through bad dice and inv saves from your opponent. At the moment I am trying a list using a few Crisis squads with ATS and 2 missile pods and seeing how that goes with some Coldstar Commanders. The range and flexibility will certainly help I think over fusion blasters.
3 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 3.5 = 3.88 damage
I think the problem is you heavily overestimated your firepower
even if you went 4 FBs (4 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 3.5 = 5.18) you wasn't really close.
Tho you're not wrong in saying that our Fire Power across the board is severely lacking.
Plasma, CIB's, or Missile Pods seem the way to go this edition imo, fusion just doesnt pack enough shots, burst cannons are meh, missile pods have the range, CIB's have the volume of shots, Plasma is cheap vs high armor. What else can we do vs Land Raiders and high T targets with inv saves? I suppose a Stormsurge packs the firepower, but is it worth the points? Would also have to invest in shield drones for it to stay alive on the board.
It's down to the D6 Damage rolls. Even with 4 FB's all hitting non 2's, you could still roll cold and do a nice big 4 damage. Woo.
FB (and similar melta weapons) could have done with D3+1, or something similar. Even if they capped off the upper limit of the damage, I feel like it'd be better than being at the mercy of only doing 1 damage with your giant weaponized welding torch.
Crusaderobr wrote: This got me thinking though, it seems fusion blasters can be ineffective vs targets with an inv save, you need alot of them to get through bad dice and inv saves from your opponent.
Look, there's nothing that can save you from bad/lucky dice rolls. The FC is definitely a high risk/high reward platform, and as you point out, using it against something with high invulnerable saves is probably a poor decision. A missile/ATS Commander is a very safe option because he'll never be the nearest enemy unit, but he'll never one shot a tank either.
doc1234 wrote: Am considering a crisis team with double fusions and shield each as a distraction fex/ hold it in reserve and react to heavy armour with it. Anyone else tried the load out?
I think you'd be better off using the slot for a 3rd weapon or a system, and give them Shield drones.
So tripfusion team is the way to go then. Well I had been meaning to get some more shield drones lol
Ghostkeel could also be a distraction fex kind of unit. it's got d3+2 fusion shots, a lot of wounds, penalty to hit it, etc. It takes some effort to kill and it's a tough unit to ignore.
doc1234 wrote: It's down to the D6 Damage rolls. Even with 4 FB's all hitting non 2's, you could still roll cold and do a nice big 4 damage. Woo.
FB (and similar melta weapons) could have done with D3+1, or something similar. Even if they capped off the upper limit of the damage, I feel like it'd be better than being at the mercy of only doing 1 damage with your giant weaponized welding torch.
I disagree. You really want something other than a FB shooting at tanks and Monsters? Sure, the potential for unlucky rolls is always there, but that's the reality of playing a dice game. Quad or Triple Fusion is absolutely the way to go against high toughness, multi wound models. Learn to love the command point reroll on those wounds and you'll go far.
doc1234 wrote: It's down to the D6 Damage rolls. Even with 4 FB's all hitting non 2's, you could still roll cold and do a nice big 4 damage. Woo.
FB (and similar melta weapons) could have done with D3+1, or something similar. Even if they capped off the upper limit of the damage, I feel like it'd be better than being at the mercy of only doing 1 damage with your giant weaponized welding torch.
I disagree. You really want something other than a FB shooting at tanks and Monsters? Sure, the potential for unlucky rolls is always there, but that's the reality of playing a dice game. Quad or Triple Fusion is absolutely the way to go against high toughness, multi wound models. Learn to love the command point reroll on those wounds and you'll go far.
You have a point I suppose. Honestly, for me the biggest problem currently is remembering I can use the CP for rerolls. Keep getting distracted by all those shiny other Strat gimmicks
doc1234 wrote: Am considering a crisis team with double fusions and shield each as a distraction fex/ hold it in reserve and react to heavy armour with it. Anyone else tried the load out?
I think you'd be better off using the slot for a 3rd weapon or a system, and give them Shield drones.
So tripfusion team is the way to go then. Well I had been meaning to get some more shield drones lol
Just had a game vs chaos where my fusion commander with 3 fusions and 1 shield gen dropped behind a heldrake. Failed to wound with a shot and he made 2 5+ inv saves. He then caused 2 wounds in the shooting phase, and then I failed 5 out of 7 4+ inv saves lol. This got me thinking though, it seems fusion blasters can be ineffective vs targets with an inv save, you need alot of them to get through bad dice and inv saves from your opponent. At the moment I am trying a list using a few Crisis squads with ATS and 2 missile pods and seeing how that goes with some Coldstar Commanders. The range and flexibility will certainly help I think over fusion blasters.
3 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 3.5 = 3.88 damage
I think the problem is you heavily overestimated your firepower
even if you went 4 FBs (4 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 3.5 = 5.18) you wasn't really close.
Tho you're not wrong in saying that our Fire Power across the board is severely lacking.
Plasma, CIB's, or Missile Pods seem the way to go this edition imo, fusion just doesnt pack enough shots, burst cannons are meh, missile pods have the range, CIB's have the volume of shots, Plasma is cheap vs high armor. What else can we do vs Land Raiders and high T targets with inv saves? I suppose a Stormsurge packs the firepower, but is it worth the points? Would also have to invest in shield drones for it to stay alive on the board.
doc1234 wrote: Am considering a crisis team with double fusions and shield each as a distraction fex/ hold it in reserve and react to heavy armour with it. Anyone else tried the load out?
I think you'd be better off using the slot for a 3rd weapon or a system, and give them Shield drones.
So tripfusion team is the way to go then. Well I had been meaning to get some more shield drones lol
Just had a game vs chaos where my fusion commander with 3 fusions and 1 shield gen dropped behind a heldrake. Failed to wound with a shot and he made 2 5+ inv saves. He then caused 2 wounds in the shooting phase, and then I failed 5 out of 7 4+ inv saves lol. This got me thinking though, it seems fusion blasters can be ineffective vs targets with an inv save, you need alot of them to get through bad dice and inv saves from your opponent. At the moment I am trying a list using a few Crisis squads with ATS and 2 missile pods and seeing how that goes with some Coldstar Commanders. The range and flexibility will certainly help I think over fusion blasters.
3 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 3.5 = 3.88 damage
I think the problem is you heavily overestimated your firepower
even if you went 4 FBs (4 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 3.5 = 5.18) you wasn't really close.
Tho you're not wrong in saying that our Fire Power across the board is severely lacking.
Plasma, CIB's, or Missile Pods seem the way to go this edition imo, fusion just doesnt pack enough shots, burst cannons are meh, missile pods have the range, CIB's have the volume of shots, Plasma is cheap vs high armor. What else can we do vs Land Raiders and high T targets with inv saves? I suppose a Stormsurge packs the firepower, but is it worth the points? Would also have to invest in shield drones for it to stay alive on the board.
Burst cannons vs. CIB compared to toughness 4?
Dunno about the math, but I'd assume the CIBs win out depending on the save. BC don't seem to bring a lot more than you'd get just bringing more strike squads, which does jack all against high saves and cover.
I think the general gestalt, supported by numbers, is that burst cannons are a terrible option on everything. As you alluded to, we have plenty of S5 sources, including the ubiquitous 8 freaking point Gun Drone. Use your suit hard points for something else.
doc1234 wrote:Dunno about the math, but I'd assume the CIBs win out depending on the save. BC don't seem to bring a lot more than you'd get just bringing more strike squads, which does jack all against high saves and cover.
Going up against T4 3+ save MEQs a 3 Crisis Suit Team (each suit with 3 of the same weapon) mathhammers out like this:
In Crisis teams CIBs will outperform BCs in raw damage output every time against every target. The only saving grace of the BC is it's 8 points cheaper than a CIB, which is 72 points for a 3 man Crisis team. I personally would rather find the extra points for CIBs myself.
Haechi wrote: I'm gonna play 2 broadsides with HRR and velocity tracker, with a pocket Ethereal with them. It's 4 fusion shots with 60" range and 3+ reroll 1 against flyers. I think it can work.
It would be amazing anti flyer - thats for sure. Most flyers are t7 too so the str8 is no problem. This is actually a really good idea.
doc1234 wrote: Am considering a crisis team with double fusions and shield each as a distraction fex/ hold it in reserve and react to heavy armour with it. Anyone else tried the load out?
I think you'd be better off using the slot for a 3rd weapon or a system, and give them Shield drones.
So tripfusion team is the way to go then. Well I had been meaning to get some more shield drones lol
Ghostkeel could also be a distraction fex kind of unit. it's got d3+2 fusion shots, a lot of wounds, penalty to hit it, etc. It takes some effort to kill and it's a tough unit to ignore.
Needs target locks and marker light support - then it's not too bad for the cost.
The Tau Empire is all about units assisting units and units making other units better.
Markerlights, Shield Drones, enough support characters to choke a horse and platforms to defend other firing platforms... It goes on and on.
I think that calculations in a vacuum are okay but the REAL comparisons need to be made WITH all that support in mind and then compared to its cost. Because what is POSSIBLE with our weaponry is the thing. Not what it does unsupported and so on.
Jancoran wrote: The Tau Empire is all about units assisting units and units making other units better.
Markerlights, Shield Drones, enough support characters to choke a horse and platforms to defend other firing platforms... It goes on and on.
I think that calculations in a vacuum are okay but the REAL comparisons need to be made WITH all that support in mind and then compared to its cost. Because what is POSSIBLE with our weaponry is the thing. Not what it does unsupported and so on.
Once you have all those "Possible" covered by cost leaves little in the way of punch.
Well what makes the possible happen is now over costed suit. The overacting to the broke Tide was all fine and dandy but they took a few extra swing with the nerf bat.. Drones can only take so much but are good for taking that multi wound shot. Then add the fact the at our guns use to make us stand out because they didn't melt our face when we shot them. Now everyone gets this and easier access to them. Where is my strike teams plasma pistols? We were moble special of JSJ and that's what kept us from H-2-H death longer. Now turn 1 H-2-H happens far more and should be expected especially when white-scars and Orc jet packs are involved. This being said we are no faster unit wise to adjust for the loss, moving away 8in and failure to kill the thing right in front of you means charge death. Yes our suits (the ones that live) can leave and still shoot but the things that buff them are SoL because they usually don't fly. Possible for us has been min-maxing things that fluff wise we shouldn't and it's upsetting.
I have ranted and poorly so with my phone of all things. My frustration is with the powers that be and the sweeping decisions made about the T'au. I have actually hit a point where I won't play towards the T'au fluff unless it's for fun and an incredibly small points game.
Jancoran wrote: The Tau Empire is all about units assisting units and units making other units better.
Markerlights, Shield Drones, enough support characters to choke a horse and platforms to defend other firing platforms... It goes on and on.
I think that calculations in a vacuum are okay but the REAL comparisons need to be made WITH all that support in mind and then compared to its cost. Because what is POSSIBLE with our weaponry is the thing. Not what it does unsupported and so on.
The problem is that a lot of the units are not inherently worth buffing by spending even more points to make a worthless unit slightly less worthless; if for example they were units with good guns, gak accuracy, survivability and not too expensive they would be worth buffing but as it is most of the units are not worth it.
The most extreme example which I am sure has been talked to death is the riptide, particularly with the ion accelerator, where you are paying ~350 points for ~1 (~3.5 nova charged) damage to a rhino a turn; full markerlight support improves most stuff by around 50%, so a fully buffed riptide will be doing up to 5 damage a turn to a rhino for ~430 points or you could get a 4xFB commander for ~160 points that needs 16 points of markerlights to do ~9 damage. The points to providing markerlights can get spread around between units but you must spend at least 80 points per unit marked, more if you want to do that turn after turn of casualties. Okay so the commander wins out on firepower but the riptide wins out on survivability right? Yes, but you could just surround the commander with 30 drones to meet the cost of fielding the riptide and beat it in the survivability department as well. The riptide wins out in having range, but the commander can deep strike so that kinda evens out to a degree.
Obviously there are less extreme examples other than what is probably one of the worst Tau units, but it is a good architype of the problem nearly every unit suffers from. Simply put, why get X when I could just get a commander and a bunch of drones? It is worth noting that the Tau infantry are good overall, but that does not make a good army on it own.
Noctem wrote: Is the default Ta'unar shoulder weapons still the best or did the giant Railgun or Missiles become better?
It is the better option.
The missile is better than it was back in 7th, while the Rail... you cna take 2 Tigersharks AX-1-0 instead (getting 4 of those)
The problem is that a lot of the units are not inherently worth buffing by spending even more points to make a worthless unit slightly less worthless;
I think this leads to some false hyperbole though. Ultimately the army functions this way and so it is better to figure out how to make things work than it is to complain that you must.
The Stormsurge is a prime example. Its not nearly as good as it used to be. I think we can agree on that? Maybe? Well it has seemed that way to me. Yet with support it is more than scary and I haven't had a single game where I couldn't keep it productive even after it degrades thanks to the many buffs of the army making it a better performer than it appears to be on paper for its price. I never suggested the Stormsurge sucks, but I can tell using it that it is not what it used to be and is much more specialized in its role now (its good at its role...just more specialized).
The same thing for Broadsides. It literally hurts my fellings to pay that many points for them but on the other hand IN CONTEXT of the army they perform much better than they look like they would for the cost. Here again, not a trash unit but a little scary on points now and ultimately easy to underestimate at first unless you count in in the context of its support.
Stiongwings are fantastic now. One player locally has made superb use of them and I own 27 myself. I have always liked them but now they are really good at their job. Here again, easy to underestimate when you don't look at it in totality.
I play so many armies that Ive probably gotten to taste a lot more of them in the 8th Edition than some and I can tell that there are no truly horrendous units like there was before and I'm finding all kinds of units that have new life in 8th. I think the wise T'au Empire general will get back in the laboratory and start experimenting. There is a lot ot work with in our codex and much of it is in where you deploy it and when. But I have used a ton of the T'au units (all of them really) and right down to Kroot Hounds, I've been really happy with my chances in every game.
Jan your advice is terrible. In my meta only commander spam lists work. I have every other Tau model at this point and it's been born out in the data that the Tau are near toothless outside of commander spam. You have to be playing in the worlds softest meta or something.
Considering we know for a fact the Tau are being looked into from frontlinegaming (Riptide in particular) I have to dismiss your advice as laughable. Your not saying anything good Tau players haven't been trying since 8th edition Tau leaks. If even GW and Reece from frontline know they are crap your being pretty delusional. If it wasn't for how obviously bad Tau are posts like yours would be terribly unhelpful in balancing the Tau.
I am gonna be honest in that I am casual and mostly take units cause they are nifty rather then effectiveness, but at some point you have to acknowledge aggregate results as opposed to how individual games. Units like broadsides can have games where they are good, a few double hits with good damage makes them look good but in my experience even when buffed and even ignored for most of the game broadsides simply do not have reliable results, they often simply fail to make back their points over the course of a game.
I also think that bringing up the stormsurge as an example is a bit funny as it is one of the more viable units, not top tier or anything but viable. I would expect the reason why no one talks about the stormsurge is simply lack of ownership combined with the stigma against LoW.
I really don't want to argue any of this stuff as there is no point getting too worked up over a hobby that is supposed to be fun, but it is frustrating that most of the Tau stuff is in a position which people even feel the need to argue viability to such an extent. Surely it is reasonable to expect balanced performance at least within an army, particularly with one like the Tau where the range of possible load outs allows for direct comparison of units using the exact same weapons. I do feel that GW is responding appropriately with the codexs released so far, but it is gonna be a long wait for some factions. I personally do not want to go and buy a bunch of units to be viable now when the units to spam is goofy stuff like commanders, which we already know that they are gonna be nerfed in a FAQ.
i just played a game with a friend. We are both new players.
I play Daemons, he plays Tau. While playing, a few questions concerning his Tau force occured.
1.
May units be set up on a Tidewall Shieldline (Deployment)?
2.
Can the units "embarked" on the Shieldline be attacked or does the line have to be attacked first (in shooting pahse and cc)
3.
Can units on a shieldline and other friendly units (that are somewhere else), shoot at a unit that is in CC with the shieldline?
4.
Can a Missle Pod be deployed on the Shieldline, when there are already 10 models "embarked"?
If not, where can it be deployed?
5.
How long does a Missle Pod last? When is it removed?
6.
When a unit has been attacked by two different units in CC, can it hit back both or has it to split attacks between those units (assuming the unit hitting back has only 1 weapon: friewarrior)
Jan your advice is terrible. In my meta only commander spam lists work. I have every other Tau model at this point and it's been born out in the data that the Tau are near toothless outside of commander spam. You have to be playing in the worlds softest meta or something.
It's apparently a meta that has historically supported Pathfinders as a strong offensive unit, if that tells you anything.
I'm with you on the Commander spam meta. I've had some reasonable success with a few of our more viable units (Y'Vahras, Fire Warriors, flamer suits, etc.), but I can't say that I've run up against any of the current tournament standards like dedicated conscript spam of massed Stormravens. I'm willing to bet I'd stand a chance against them without strict Commander spam, but it's still a very 7th Tyranids type book so far. There aren't many units I'd even consider using. Here's hoping October is kind to us.
i just played a game with a friend. We are both new players.
I play Daemons, he plays Tau. While playing, a few questions concerning his Tau force occured.
1. May units be set up on a Tidewall Shieldline (Deployment)? No. It is a fortification with a transport capacity. See the embarked models rules.
BrB page 183
2. Can the units "embarked" on the Shieldline be attacked or does the line have to be attacked first (in shooting pahse and cc) Models embarked are not actually placed on the battlefield and thus cannot be attacked. Models embarked on the Shieldline use the 'open-topped' shooting rules in the Shieldline Abilities section.
BrB page 183, Index Xenos 2 page 76
3. Can units on a shieldline and other friendly units (that are somewhere else), shoot at a unit that is in CC with the shieldline? No and Yes. If there are enemy units within 1 inch of the Shieldline the models embarked on the Shieldline cannot shoot except with pistols. Other friendly units can shoot the attacking models though.
Index Xenos 2 page 77: Abilities section > Fortification & Open Topped
4. Can a Missle Pod be deployed on the Shieldline, when there are already 10 models "embarked"? If not, where can it be deployed? I assume you mean the Tactical Support Turret. No. The Strike Team models are not placed on the battlefield thus cannot fulfill the requirements to deploy the turret. Rules as of now make this fortification a fancy transport. That begs the question.... can an already 10 model strong unit be embarked on the Shieldline if it includes a turret that would make it 11 models?
Index Xenos 2 pages 57 and 76.
5. How long does a Missle Pod last? When is it removed? There is no duration limit. It is stationary once deployed and removed when a model from the unit moves out of coherency with it.
Index Xenos 2 page 57
6. When a unit has been attacked by two different units in CC, can it hit back both or has it to split attacks between those units (assuming the unit hitting back has only 1 weapon: friewarrior) Split the attacks.
BrB page 182: section 3 Choose Targets
Jan your advice is terrible. In my meta only commander spam lists work. I have every other Tau model at this point and it's been born out in the data that the Tau are near toothless outside of commander spam. You have to be playing in the worlds softest meta or something.
It's apparently a meta that has historically supported Pathfinders as a strong offensive unit, if that tells you anything.
I'm with you on the Commander spam meta. I've had some reasonable success with a few of our more viable units (Y'Vahras, Fire Warriors, flamer suits, etc.), but I can't say that I've run up against any of the current tournament standards like dedicated conscript spam of massed Stormravens. I'm willing to bet I'd stand a chance against them without strict Commander spam, but it's still a very 7th Tyranids type book so far. There aren't many units I'd even consider using. Here's hoping October is kind to us.
It tells me a lot... that is is super fluffy and soft.
Gamgee wrote: Jan your advice is terrible. In my meta only commander spam lists work. I have every other Tau model at this point and it's been born out in the data that the Tau are near toothless outside of commander spam. You have to be playing in the worlds softest meta or something.
Considering we know for a fact the Tau are being looked into from frontlinegaming (Riptide in particular) I have to dismiss your advice as laughable. Your not saying anything good Tau players haven't been trying since 8th edition Tau leaks. If even GW and Reece from frontline know they are crap your being pretty delusional. If it wasn't for how obviously bad Tau are posts like yours would be terribly unhelpful in balancing the Tau.
If I had a dollar...
Anywho, I've faced the Commander spam. It's good. I don't use it, but I do recommend it as an effective way to play.
If your advice is limited to "Commander spam or bust", however... Then I guess it is what it is?
My advice might span a bit more territory. And you're free to ignore every bit of it at your leisure. Of course.
It's apparently a meta that has historically supported Pathfinders as a strong offensive unit, if that tells you anything.
.
Under-explaining things is a good way to look as if you don't speak in good faith, MilkmanAI. I've provided video battle reports, written ones as well as lists and explanations on its use on this forum and you really aren't giving him the right impression. Clearly the list included more than Pathfinders. You should be more fair minded.
Units don't exist in a vacuum and that was my central point. As an example, the Pathfinders were quite potent offensively. Rules changes and later ITC/FAQ decisions did eventually change the effectiveness of what I was doing (the 6th edition removal of assault from reserve and then the 7th edition nerf on grenades most specifically) but it was very effective for 5th, and for a while in 6th Edition. I didn't do it as much in 7th. So you're citing REALLY old datum to make a point, which to be fair...isn't very fair minded at all. To make matters worse, you're ignoring the reality of what I accomplished using them offensively, which was a lot.
The important thing is that looking at things in a vacuum or in their minimalist form is a mistake. You apparently disagree... or... you're just sniping for no good reason. I can't tell which.
I can provide the list I am currently using if you like. It's one way to skin a cat. There are other ways to skin a cat. As I frequently am forced to point out, if you can get 46 pages into a thread and your only conclusion is "Commander spam or bust" then why keep reading the thread? Lol. That seems like a colossal waste of time. Just saying. if you want to gain something from the thread, then you're going to have to be more open minded to different ideas. I'm not asking you to do everything I tell you works. I'm just telling you not to knock everything you DON'T do. Lol.
i just played a game with a friend. We are both new players.
I play Daemons, he plays Tau. While playing, a few questions concerning his Tau force occured.
1. May units be set up on a Tidewall Shieldline (Deployment)? No. It is a fortification with a transport capacity. See the embarked models rules.
BrB page 183
2. Can the units "embarked" on the Shieldline be attacked or does the line have to be attacked first (in shooting pahse and cc) Models embarked are not actually placed on the battlefield and thus cannot be attacked. Models embarked on the Shieldline use the 'open-topped' shooting rules in the Shieldline Abilities section.
BrB page 183, Index Xenos 2 page 76
3. Can units on a shieldline and other friendly units (that are somewhere else), shoot at a unit that is in CC with the shieldline? No and Yes. If there are enemy units within 1 inch of the Shieldline the models embarked on the Shieldline cannot shoot except with pistols. Other friendly units can shoot the attacking models though.
Index Xenos 2 page 77: Abilities section > Fortification & Open Topped
4. Can a Missle Pod be deployed on the Shieldline, when there are already 10 models "embarked"? If not, where can it be deployed? I assume you mean the Tactical Support Turret. No. The Strike Team models are not placed on the battlefield thus cannot fulfill the requirements to deploy the turret. Rules as of now make this fortification a fancy transport. That begs the question.... can an already 10 model strong unit be embarked on the Shieldline if it includes a turret that would make it 11 models?
Index Xenos 2 pages 57 and 76.
5. How long does a Missle Pod last? When is it removed? There is no duration limit. It is stationary once deployed and removed when a model from the unit moves out of coherency with it.
Index Xenos 2 page 57
6. When a unit has been attacked by two different units in CC, can it hit back both or has it to split attacks between those units (assuming the unit hitting back has only 1 weapon: friewarrior) Split the attacks.
BrB page 182: section 3 Choose Targets
4. Can a Missle Pod be deployed on the Shieldline, when there are already 10 models "embarked"? If not, where can it be deployed? I assume you mean the Tactical Support Turret. No. The Strike Team models are not placed on the battlefield thus cannot fulfill the requirements to deploy the turret. Rules as of now make this fortification a fancy transport. That begs the question.... can an already 10 model strong unit be embarked on the Shieldline if it includes a turret that would make it 11 models?
Index Xenos 2 pages 57 and 76.
Can't move the Turret for any reason, Embarking is considered a form of movement.
As you also said, can't place it in coherency while inside.
4. Can a Missle Pod be deployed on the Shieldline, when there are already 10 models "embarked"? If not, where can it be deployed? I assume you mean the Tactical Support Turret. No. The Strike Team models are not placed on the battlefield thus cannot fulfill the requirements to deploy the turret. Rules as of now make this fortification a fancy transport. That begs the question.... can an already 10 model strong unit be embarked on the Shieldline if it includes a turret that would make it 11 models?
Index Xenos 2 pages 57 and 76.
Can't move the Turret for any reason, Embarking is considered a form of movement.
As you also said, can't place it in coherency while inside.
Agreed, and still does not answer the question, can a 10 FW strong unit be embarked on the Shieldline if they include a turret? Remember, the unit can start the game embarked.
Hi all, I'm getting back into 40k playing Tau after a couple of years off and was wondering how people were running their FW's (type / squad size / number of squads) and how they were playing them in game. Apologies if this has been covered in the thread before!
ke3f wrote: Hi all, I'm getting back into 40k playing Tau after a couple of years off and was wondering how people were running their FW's (type / squad size / number of squads) and how they were playing them in game. Apologies if this has been covered before in the thread before!
I tried two units of 10 in a recent 1000pts tournament to see how it could work played as a horde. They did absolutely nothing all 4 games. I'm scraping them out completely to replace them with 10 men Pathfinders units with just markerlights for the same price.
You definitely have to look at Tau as a whole and not individual units. Crisis teams are expensive by themselves for what they do, but take 3 suits with 2x Cyclic Ion and ATS, a CIB/ATS commander, a stealthsuit team with 1 guy with a drone controller, throw gun drones and a couple shield drones all over those units, add in a cheap gun drone squad, and a fireblade and things start to hurt.
The fireblade still hits with his markerlight on a 3+ after moving, you only really need 1 markerlight on the thing you want to die so if your pathfinders die you still have some. Move that force up and you've got 8 point drones hitting on 4+ getting 6 shots each at 9" range along with suits that are hard to kill who can dish out lots of anti infantry shots or some overcharged anti medium things shots.
Even if you're moving faster than a Fireblade can go a stealth team with a drone controller leading a full squad of gun drones can put out a lot of hurt for a reasonable price.
I have a quick question about pathfinders and the drone added to the unit.
I know the drone need to be deployed when the pathfinder unit is, but do the drones move with the pathfinder unit at the beginning of the first turn with them?
My first guess is no since after they are deployed, the 2 drones count as separate units.
ke3f wrote: Hi all, I'm getting back into 40k playing Tau after a couple of years off and was wondering how people were running their FW's (type / squad size / number of squads) and how they were playing them in game. Apologies if this has been covered before in the thread before!
I tried two units of 10 in a recent 1000pts tournament to see how it could work played as a horde. They did absolutely nothing all 4 games. I'm scraping them out completely to replace them with 10 men Pathfinders units with just markerlights for the same price.
Fire Warriors are definitely still a supporting unit. I'm experimenting with Breachers but I'm pretty convinced that it's either Pulse Rifles or bust. Rifle Fire Warriors can sit on objectives and toss 3 shots at 15" with a Fireblade nearby. Not super strong but if you need to fill out some Troops with a cheap HQ for Detachments they still have a role but they aren't going to win you games. I'm still not sure if Breachers in a Fish are any good, but they might be. If you aren't going to do that and don't need to fill Troops slots then just take pathfinders, I still proxy a lot of Carbine FWs as Pathfinders for that.
Pathfinders can also take Rail Rifles, which aren't too bad. Good range, d3 damage, AP -4. You need some ablative wounds to back them up but you're allowed to shoot some markerlights first and use them with the same squad. 2 5-man Pathfinder teams with 3 rail rifles, 2 MLs, and a 6-8 model unit of shield drones covering them isn't too bad. The 2 markerlights will likely score 1 hit and then you send in the rail rifles. You also always have the option of sending those drones to protect something more important like crisis suits if you need to. That picks you up 3 FA slots toward filling up an outrider detachment.
ke3f wrote: Hi all, I'm getting back into 40k playing Tau after a couple of years off and was wondering how people were running their FW's (type / squad size / number of squads) and how they were playing them in game. Apologies if this has been covered before in the thread before!
I tried two units of 10 in a recent 1000pts tournament to see how it could work played as a horde. They did absolutely nothing all 4 games. I'm scraping them out completely to replace them with 10 men Pathfinders units with just markerlights for the same price.
Fire Warriors are definitely still a supporting unit. I'm experimenting with Breachers but I'm pretty convinced that it's either Pulse Rifles or bust. Rifle Fire Warriors can sit on objectives and toss 3 shots at 15" with a Fireblade nearby. Not super strong but if you need to fill out some Troops with a cheap HQ for Detachments they still have a role but they aren't going to win you games. I'm still not sure if Breachers in a Fish are any good, but they might be. If you aren't going to do that and don't need to fill Troops slots then just take pathfinders, I still proxy a lot of Carbine FWs as Pathfinders for that.
Pathfinders can also take Rail Rifles, which aren't too bad. Good range, d3 damage, AP -4. You need some ablative wounds to back them up but you're allowed to shoot some markerlights first and use them with the same squad. 2 5-man Pathfinder teams with 3 rail rifles, 2 MLs, and a 6-8 model unit of shield drones covering them isn't too bad. The 2 markerlights will likely score 1 hit and then you send in the rail rifles. You also always have the option of sending those drones to protect something more important like crisis suits if you need to. That picks you up 3 FA slots toward filling up an outrider detachment.
One concept I have heard thrown around that I am considering trying is having a bunch of devilfish each filled with 5 breachers, 5 pathfinders with ion/rail rifles plus recon drone and 2 other drones. Terrible from the killpoint perspective but potentially effective as you shield the pathfinders with drones and shotguns while letting you rapid fire range stuff with the pathfinders.
One concept I have heard thrown around that I am considering trying is having a bunch of devilfish each filled with 5 breachers, 5 pathfinders with ion/rail rifles plus recon drone and 2 other drones. Terrible from the killpoint perspective but potentially effective as you shield the pathfinders with drones and shotguns while letting you rapid fire range stuff with the pathfinders.
I tried 10 Breachers with a Guardian Drone and Darkstrider in a fish the other day. Conceptually it's not a bad idea and I'm going to keep trying it but it didn't work well this game. I rolled crap for it, and I only had one such unit. The idea is a threat to rhinos rushing you. Darkstrider drops it to T6 and the Breachers now wound on 4+ with AP -2. It can soften up something tough so you can dedicate less firepower to pop it. It's more firepower than tau infantry can generally bring.
@Jancoran: I'd be very curious to see a list that's working for you, especially if it isn't Commander spam. I've been trying to think of ways to make a decent Tau list with my current collection of models, but far too often I find myself wishing I had more Commanders (I've only got 1 plus some regular Crisis suits that could get a "battlefield promotion"). I like your offbeat Tau tactics and lists that work for you, so keep on sharing it even if some others (not naming any names...) are too stubborn to listen.
ke3f wrote: Hi all, I'm getting back into 40k playing Tau after a couple of years off and was wondering how people were running their FW's (type / squad size / number of squads) and how they were playing them in game. Apologies if this has been covered in the thread before!
I play mine vanilla, with a Cadre Fireblade nearby to make them beasts. I also do like the usage of the Smart Missiles. A little spendy but very useful, as enemy infantry are like cockroaches when they get into cover. Lol.
Jancoran wrote: I think that calculations in a vacuum are okay but the REAL comparisons need to be made WITH all that support in mind and then compared to its cost. Because what is POSSIBLE with our weaponry is the thing. Not what it does unsupported and so on.
This is often one of the hardest things to try to grasp and convey in a setting like a Forum, where pure numbers can look really sexy. It also can be difficult to get a real "feel" for tactics and strategies that fit your playstyle and taste. That's why solely analyzing math can be a trap, and sometimes prevent you from playing to your potential. It's not always about damage outputs and durability (but those are great and do need to be understood), but things like tactical flexibility and unit synergy that can be difficult to quantify.
Rockfish wrote: Simply put, why get X when I could just get a commander and a bunch of drones?
I would have to go with: "Because that's boring, and I'm not going out to buy and slave over 5 more Commanders just to have 'the next big thing' arrive when the Codex drops.". Rumor mill has the Codex coming early next year, right? I can wait 4-6 months. Heck, even then I'll still not want to rush out and buy 50+ hours of painting commitment to run the same list as everyone else.
Gamgee wrote: Jan your advice is terrible. In my meta only commander spam lists work. I have every other Tau model at this point and it's been born out in the data that the Tau are near toothless outside of commander spam.
Then we might as well lock this thread, or move on to another topic. Either way, leading off with a comment like that, just makes you opinions less noteworthy.
Rockfish wrote: I do feel that GW is responding appropriately with the codexs released so far, but it is gonna be a long wait for some factions. I personally do not want to go and buy a bunch of units to be viable now when the units to spam is goofy stuff like commanders, which we already know that they are gonna be nerfed in a FAQ.
Seconded. My game plan is to focus on the other units that have been doing well for me, and getting my painted units more well rounded after 7th. I have plenty of the things that were good or fun in 7th, that are going to see much less play in 8th. Time to dust off the 'pile of shame', and start painting to flesh out my army as a whole. I agree with your sentiment that GW has been doing much better their releases so far, and I am also optimistic for future releases.
ke3f wrote: Hi all, I'm getting back into 40k playing Tau after a couple of years off and was wondering how people were running their FW's (type / squad size / number of squads) and how they were playing them in game. Apologies if this has been covered in the thread before!
I have been running minimum sized units, and that's worked out well for me. It makes Morale less of a problem, and I haven't had issues keeping the units within the range of Auras buffs. I think a Fireblade is too good to pass up with his 'Volley Fire' Aura, and is a solid Markerlight source for that important first hit. Smaller squads can be helpful when your opponent has an Assault heavy list, as it can force them to multiassault into 2 or more units, and that can often be to your advantage. It could be that they just missappropriate their attacks (overkilling one squad, but barely touching the other), but it also makes them rely more on chance even if they make the right call. If the dice break poorly/well in one squad that's good for you either way. If they roll garbage on attack, you keep a small squad (or most of it). If they roll hot, then the damage is mitigated to just the smaller squad. Granted, it's a trivial advantage, but it's fun when it highlights someones cold dice rolling. In my area we have the luxury of most events using a PL based system for Kill Points, and that has been very healthy for smaller sized units VS traditional 1KP per unit, so I am also biased there.
Rockfish wrote: Simply put, why get X when I could just get a commander and a bunch of drones?
I would have to go with: "Because that's boring, and I'm not going out to buy and slave over 5 more Commanders just to have 'the next big thing' arrive when the Codex drops.". Rumor mill has the Codex coming early next year, right? I can wait 4-6 months. Heck, even then I'll still not want to rush out and buy 50+ hours of painting commitment to run the same list as everyone else.
You don't need to buy commanders, just buy regular crisis suits or use the crisis suits you already have.
I personally am not really planning on buying anything new until the codex and was just gonna finish off what I have and do lists that have some degree of fun to them.
ZergSmasher wrote: @Jancoran: I'd be very curious to see a list that's working for you, especially if it isn't Commander spam. I've been trying to think of ways to make a decent Tau list with my current collection of models, but far too often I find myself wishing I had more Commanders (I've only got 1 plus some regular Crisis suits that could get a "battlefield promotion"). I like your offbeat Tau tactics and lists that work for you, so keep on sharing it even if some others (not naming any names...) are too stubborn to listen.
Sure. I will give you the 2K list I normally use at the moment. I'll explain if anyone has a question. if not then...hey!.
Tau Arctic Corps Fortification Network Formation
7 (139pts)Tidewall Gunrig
7 (139pts)Tidewall Gunrig
7 (139pts)Tidewall Gunrig
= 417
Tau Arctic Corps Expeditionary Brigade
Heavy Support
3 (54pts) 3 Sniper Drones
3 (54pts) 3 Sniper Drones
3 (54pts) 3 Sniper Drones
= 162
Elites
2 (31pts) Kroot Shaper
1 (24pts) Firesight Markmen (Markerlight)
1 (24pts) Firesight Markmen (Markerlight)
= 79
Fast Attack
6 (137pts)10 Pathfinders (3 Rail Rifles, 7 Carbine+Markerlights)
6 (137pts)10 Pathfinders (3 Rail Rifles, 7 Carbine + Markerlights)
6 (100pts)10 Marker Drones
3 (48pts) 12 Kroot Hounds
3 (48pts) 12 Kroot Hounds
= 470
Troops
6 (60pts) 10 Kroot Carnivores
3 (40pts) 5 Fire Warriors
3 (40pts) 5 Fire Warriors
3 (40pts) 5 Fire Warriors
5 (48pts) 6 Fire Warriors
5 (48pts) 6 Fire Warriors
=276
HQ 4 (75pts) Aun’Va of the Undying Spirit
2 (42pts) Cadre Fireblade (Rifle+Markerlight)
2 (42pts) Cadre Fireblade (Rifle+Markerlight)
=159
Tau Arctic Corps Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
22 (437pts) StormSurge (2 Airburst Frag Launchers, Cluster Rockets, 4 Destroyer Missiles, Pulse Blast Cannon, 2 Smart Missiles, Shield Generator, Advanced Targeting Systems, Drone Controller)
Total Points: 2000
Total Power: 113
Total Models: 112
Deployment Drops: 21-24
That's an interesting list. Lots of chaff-type units that can tie bigger stuff up while the gunrigs and Stormsurge do most of the hard work. Plenty of Markerlights to help said Stormsurge, plus the Fire Warriors and Fireblades can put out a scary number of shots. And not a Commander in sight. If this is working well for you, color me impressed! I'm not sure it would work that well in my hyper-competitive meta, but it sure would be fun! What wouldn't be fun would be coming up with 24 Kroot Hounds...
It's nice to see people succeeding without having to resort to using the popular netlists. And this is true in any game, be it 40k or Warmachine or even CCG's like Magic: The Gathering. I've been trying to get creative with my own collection, but I have yet to even try out my Tau in 8th. They were my strongest army in 7th, netting me a 2nd place finish in a tournament that included some of my super-competitive friends. And I didn't have to take a Riptide wing (7th's strongest Tau build) to do it.
Maybe I'll post a list or two of my own either here or in the Army List subforum and see what people think, although I tend to take a lot of "internet wisdom" with a healthy dose of . I definitely like the Brigade detachment for Tau, as those extra CP's can give a lot of critical rerolls for some of the one-off weapons (like D-missiles).
If this is working well for you, color me impressed! I'm not sure it would work that well in my hyper-competitive meta, but it sure would be fun! What wouldn't be fun would be coming up with 24 Kroot Hounds...
Here are the qualifications I can give you for my Meta. It comes up a lot so what the hell. Maybe this can put it to sleep once and for all.
I was top 3% in the ITC last year (5575 generals competed last year). I attended the Bay Area Open, 3 GT's and 10 normal tournaments plus four more that were not ITC sanctioned events (of which i won two of those but they are not included in my ITC standing).
And since I get REAL tired of hearing about my Meta being soft (hilarious) here's the list of people I regularly went to tournaments against and with. These are just the ones I am most familiar with, excluding any that I am probably just not thinking of off the top of my head or didn't have a lot of contact with.
Regular opponents and fellow tourney goers include the following (from last years rankings):
3rd overall with Orcs
2nd, 3rd, and 6th as Necrons,
2nd as Deathwatch,
5th, 8th and 20th among Adeptus Astartes players,
14th as Blood angels,
6th as Chaos Daemons, 2nd as Harlequins and first among Imperial Knights (oh and btw, 11th in the entire ITC),
4th as Chaos Marines,
3rd among Dark Angels,
9th among Genestealer Cult players,
1st and 5th among Renegade Knights
3rd as Officio Assassinorum
3rd Among Skitarii
8th among Space Wolves
1st, 3rd, 5th, among Tau Empire
1st among Tyranids
846 teams registered and played in the ITC last year. Among them our regular opponents and fellow clubs which we regularly competed with were ranked #1, 7,11,14, 15. Our club was ranked #25 among all 846. Not shockingly, also top 3%
So. My meta, for anyone who wants to know, is this. My lists are built to deal with THIS and to my opponents outside of the many ITC tournaments I went to or were not this highly rated but still in the top 5%-10% of your armies, i salute you as well!
Heavy Support
3 (54pts) 3 Sniper Drones
3 (54pts) 3 Sniper Drones
3 (54pts) 3 Sniper Drones
How have these been working out for you? I have a bunch of the old metal ones sitting on the bottom of the pile, waiting to be painted, but they seem to be a little lacking. Is there anything they have been excelling at for you?
ZergSmasher wrote: I definitely like the Brigade detachment for Tau, as those extra CP's can give a lot of critical rerolls for some of the one-off weapons (like D-missiles).
I like the Brigade as well, I think you are correct on the CP advantage being big for the Tau. That sweet reroll can make an all-or-nothing shot like the Hammerhead or Gunrig really over-preform. The only annoyance is that you only get to use it once on your shooting phase. I've been using the Auto-Pass Morale ability as well and the occasional defensive reroll or melee interupt, but it looks like he's got that covered with Aun'Va. which begs me to wonder. . .
@Jancoran: What are you using most (of the non-shooting reroll) CP for?
I'd love to know if I'm missing an opportunity, because I feel the Tau build well toward a Brigade. Unfortunately I sometimes feel constrained with the three generic Stratagems (and the occasional mission based one). I really can't wait until we get a full list to work from.
Sure. I will give you the 2K list I normally use at the moment. I'll explain if anyone has a question. if not then...hey!.
Honestly your list is not even that out of the left field as far as I am concerned, if you don't mind I am just gonna spout off my thoughts and see if you agree:
Gunrigs with full markerlight support are unusual in that they are directly comparable damage with longstrike, I dont remember the exact math but they are fine
Sniper drones are a bit weird but also fit into being the cheapest heavy support option, how have they been in your games?
Cannot really comment on Kroot, don't really know them I think they are meh or something? could be worse tho
Firesights are okay for starting markerlight chains same as cadres seems fine
Pathfinders we all know are good
I would question the large number of marker drones for moral reasons but you have Aun'Va so that is fine
Hounds are one of the best melee time wasters
Firewarriors good inf all good
Aun'Va is basicly a better ethreal right?
Carde Fireblades are good
Stormsurge is okay not amazing not bad either
Honestly looking at your list the most questionable units are probably the sniper drones but they are cheap heavy support options so it is fine even if they do nothing. Your list is the other viable option after commanders, just ignore all the gak options and take the okay options and outplay the other guy and that list is good, it is more reliant on not being gak then commander spam tho so I doubt you will see that much in the way of duplication. Honestly if I was willing to drop money on Tau stuff at the moment I would probably steal your list and do something like replace a few things with the one commander I have and maybe some stealth suits cause I like those.
Heavy Support
3 (54pts) 3 Sniper Drones
3 (54pts) 3 Sniper Drones
3 (54pts) 3 Sniper Drones
How have these been working out for you? I have a bunch of the old metal ones sitting on the bottom of the pile, waiting to be painted, but they seem to be a little lacking. Is there anything they have been excelling at for you?
ZergSmasher wrote: I definitely like the Brigade detachment for Tau, as those extra CP's can give a lot of critical rerolls for some of the one-off weapons (like D-missiles).
I like the Brigade as well, I think you are correct on the CP advantage being big for the Tau. That sweet reroll can make an all-or-nothing shot like the Hammerhead or Gunrig really over-preform. The only annoyance is that you only get to use it once on your shooting phase. I've been using the Auto-Pass Morale ability as well and the occasional defensive reroll or melee interupt, but it looks like he's got that covered with Aun'Va. which begs me to wonder. . .
@Jancoran: What are you using most (of the non-shooting reroll) CP for?
I'd love to know if I'm missing an opportunity, because I feel the Tau build well toward a Brigade. Unfortunately I sometimes feel constrained with the three generic Stratagems (and the occasional mission based one). I really can't wait until we get a full list to work from.
Sniper Drones are a utilitarian necessity. I don't know how many 8th Edition games people have right now. I'm at 31 so far. MANY "builds" rely on the re-rolls and shenanigans of characters. Firing 18 shots straight through their lines and into those characters at STR 5, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's produces good results. You can drop a character after a couple rounds of that. It is also raw firepower in the general sense., Its just REALLY long range Pulse fire when you get down to it. You pay for the range and the Toughness 4, but the stealth also cannot be forgotten. But in the end I just think its super good policy top pop that Lieutenant like a pimple down yonder or to be able to add 18 overwatch shots, or scrag the darn Chaos Lord with no upgrades thats just camping one of the four vital objectives. Singular models you can't shoot at are a problem in objective missions. I think we all know the frustration so far in having a bunch of stuff in melee, a Tau Commander as the only viable target and having nothing to shoot because they're not the closest even when they are the only target! Do they cure cancer? No. I feel pretty strongly that you need them though and if you want to think WORST CASE... They are an inexpensive way to get to a Brigade and if what the actual DRONES do doesnt excite you (I think they do plenty) then perhaps you will at least think highly of the command Points they allow.
Command Point question: I tend to save the re-rolls for my Supremacy Gun Damage rolls as much as anything, since markerlights make me hit on 4's, rerolling 1's. It's actually hitting pretty often but a 1 on the damage roll is a super bummer.
If this is working well for you, color me impressed! I'm not sure it would work that well in my hyper-competitive meta, but it sure would be fun! What wouldn't be fun would be coming up with 24 Kroot Hounds...
Here are the qualifications I can give you for my Meta. It comes up a lot so what the hell. Maybe this can put it to sleep once and for all.
I was top 3% in the ITC last year (5575 generals competed last year). I attended the Bay Area Open, 3 GT's and 10 normal tournaments plus four more that were not ITC sanctioned events (of which i won two of those but they are not included in my ITC standing).
And since I get REAL tired of hearing about my Meta being soft (hilarious) here's the list of people I regularly went to tournaments against and with. These are just the ones I am most familiar with, excluding any that I am probably just not thinking of off the top of my head or didn't have a lot of contact with.
Regular opponents and fellow tourney goers include the following (from last years rankings):
3rd overall with Orcs
2nd, 3rd, and 6th as Necrons,
2nd as Deathwatch,
5th, 8th and 20th among Adeptus Astartes players,
14th as Blood angels,
6th as Chaos Daemons, 2nd as Harlequins and first among Imperial Knights (oh and btw, 11th in the entire ITC),
4th as Chaos Marines,
3rd among Dark Angels,
9th among Genestealer Cult players,
1st and 5th among Renegade Knights
3rd as Officio Assassinorum
3rd Among Skitarii
8th among Space Wolves
1st, 3rd, 5th, among Tau Empire
1st among Tyranids
846 teams registered and played in the ITC last year. Among them our regular opponents and fellow clubs which we regularly competed with were ranked #1, 7,11,14, 15. Our club was ranked #25 among all 846. Not shockingly, also top 3%
So. My meta, for anyone who wants to know, is this. My lists are built to deal with THIS and to my opponents outside of the many ITC tournaments I went to or were not this highly rated but still in the top 5%-10% of your armies, i salute you as well!
Your point is taken. I'm sorry if I seemed like I was looking down at you, I'm unfortunately very good at saying what I'm trying to say very badly and I end up offending people sometimes.
While I don't doubt your list is good and works even in your meta, I certainly expect that it takes a high degree of skill to play. I could sit down with this list and probably lose all 3 games in my local tournaments (where even compared to your meta the players are no slouches) simply due to not knowing how the list works and not having the tactical skill. I guess I need to "git gud" or something.
That said, I'm probably going to fiddle around in Battlescribe and see if I can do a similar list with the models I own. Maybe I'll pick some more up before I start playing Tau again.
Sure. I will give you the 2K list I normally use at the moment. I'll explain if anyone has a question. if not then...hey!.
Honestly your list is not even that out of the left field as far as I am concerned, if you don't mind I am just gonna spout off my thoughts and see if you agree:
Gunrigs with full markerlight support are unusual in that they are directly comparable damage with longstrike, I dont remember the exact math but they are fine
Sniper drones are a bit weird but also fit into being the cheapest heavy support option, how have they been in your games?
Cannot really comment on Kroot, don't really know them I think they are meh or something? could be worse tho
Firesights are okay for starting markerlight chains same as cadres seems fine
Pathfinders we all know are good
I would question the large number of marker drones for moral reasons but you have Aun'Va so that is fine
Hounds are one of the best melee time wasters
Firewarriors good inf all good
Aun'Va is basicly a better ethreal right?
Carde Fireblades are good
Stormsurge is okay not amazing not bad either
Honestly looking at your list the most questionable units are probably the sniper drones but they are cheap heavy support options so it is fine even if they do nothing. Your list is the other viable option after commanders, just ignore all the gak options and take the okay options and outplay the other guy and that list is good, it is more reliant on not being gak then commander spam tho so I doubt you will see that much in the way of duplication. Honestly if I was willing to drop money on Tau stuff at the moment I would probably steal your list and do something like replace a few things with the one commander I have and maybe some stealth suits cause I like those.
The Gunrigs are hitting about 67% of the time with Markerlight support. That's the math. They hit like a truck.
Sniper Drones are just much tougher Fire Warriors with far better range. That also snipe.
Kroot are the Red herring. Use them to get someone to disembark and assault. Squishies are so in trouble when in the open. Kroot also can wrap up ome units if you dont deal with them and sorry bud, your Lascannon Predator isnt going to do much to it so at some point, someone has to get out and duke it out with them.
Firesight Marksmen are reliable Markerlights but they also make the Sniper Drones usable and having two discourages some players (Ive noticed) from trying to snipe THEM. After all, firing your scouts at the Stealth'd Marksman for rounds on end does little good when there is a second one standing right there! You'll kill more Marker Drones than you will Marksmen when you think about it.
Pathfinders: they dish damage very well. My regular Custodes opponent REALLY does not appreciate it. Lol.
The Marker swarm has been a staple of my army since it became possible. I used to protect them with an Irridium commander. Can't do that anymore but with Aun'Va around, Markerlights are actually less necessary. The attention Markerswoarms get is a bit less damaging. The focus on them has served me well at times... That assumes the enemy has the range to mess with them to an extent that hurts my overall chances. anyone who fights Tau knows better than to try and out gun me though. If they didn't know before, theywill soon learn.
Kroot Hounds are just so good. So good. I can't even speak enough superlatives in their direction.
Fire Warriors: Nuf said, rtight?
Aun'Va has been leading my forces for a long time. Between his ability and the auto-pass on a 6, it is rare for me to lose much in the way of leadership. More than that his mere presence gives my core firebase durability from the 6+ FnP and his "automarkerlight" aura.
Fireblades= markerlights on 2+ AND an aura of extra shots. Too good.
Stormsurge is a necessity like it was in 7th. People simply ARE bringing silly stuff to the tournaments I go to and you simply must have your anti-Magnus (or similar thing) in the list. I've already had to fight a Prophyrion titan thingee at a tournament for example. Crazy Forge World BS. So yeah: StormSurge isn't going anywhere, even if it is kinda just an anti-infantry gunboat. It's good at its job and if it dies, it probably won't be before it hurts someones feelings real bad. or dies round one. Whatevs. Lol.
If this is working well for you, color me impressed! I'm not sure it would work that well in my hyper-competitive meta, but it sure would be fun! What wouldn't be fun would be coming up with 24 Kroot Hounds...
Here are the qualifications I can give you for my Meta. It comes up a lot so what the hell. Maybe this can put it to sleep once and for all.
I was top 3% in the ITC last year (5575 generals competed last year). I attended the Bay Area Open, 3 GT's and 10 normal tournaments plus four more that were not ITC sanctioned events (of which i won two of those but they are not included in my ITC standing).
And since I get REAL tired of hearing about my Meta being soft (hilarious) here's the list of people I regularly went to tournaments against and with. These are just the ones I am most familiar with, excluding any that I am probably just not thinking of off the top of my head or didn't have a lot of contact with.
Regular opponents and fellow tourney goers include the following (from last years rankings):
3rd overall with Orcs
2nd, 3rd, and 6th as Necrons,
2nd as Deathwatch,
5th, 8th and 20th among Adeptus Astartes players,
14th as Blood angels,
6th as Chaos Daemons, 2nd as Harlequins and first among Imperial Knights (oh and btw, 11th in the entire ITC),
4th as Chaos Marines,
3rd among Dark Angels,
9th among Genestealer Cult players,
1st and 5th among Renegade Knights
3rd as Officio Assassinorum
3rd Among Skitarii
8th among Space Wolves
1st, 3rd, 5th, among Tau Empire
1st among Tyranids
846 teams registered and played in the ITC last year. Among them our regular opponents and fellow clubs which we regularly competed with were ranked #1, 7,11,14, 15. Our club was ranked #25 among all 846. Not shockingly, also top 3%
So. My meta, for anyone who wants to know, is this. My lists are built to deal with THIS and to my opponents outside of the many ITC tournaments I went to or were not this highly rated but still in the top 5%-10% of your armies, i salute you as well!
Your point is taken. I'm sorry if I seemed like I was looking down at you, I'm unfortunately very good at saying what I'm trying to say very badly and I end up offending people sometimes.
While I don't doubt your list is good and works even in your meta, I certainly expect that it takes a high degree of skill to play. I could sit down with this list and probably lose all 3 games in my local tournaments (where even compared to your meta the players are no slouches) simply due to not knowing how the list works and not having the tactical skill. I guess I need to "git gud" or something.
That said, I'm probably going to fiddle around in Battlescribe and see if I can do a similar list with the models I own. Maybe I'll pick some more up before I start playing Tau again.
Fair. I was not truly directing this at you per se, but just trying to nip it in the bud before it starts going down that road too far. Whenever seomone wants to tell me im stark raving mad, they always reach for the good old "opponent strength" thing off the shelf there and...well...I guess you can tell I don't like it very much. Lol.
As for skill: Maaaaaaaybe. But honestly I think that practice makes perfect.
The round goes like this:
the hounds flank and make the halo so drop troops cannot get in on you. Move up if it makes sense to with the rest. Red herring Kroot Vanguard move and then advance in the middle to intercept anything coming your way, to slow them down and ill blow a command point here if I need to to get them up there as far as possible. Kroot should be able to reach the 29 inch line and preferably in cover (not that it will help much).
Roll the Markerlights that hit on 2's.
Roll the Markerlights that hit on 3's
Split the Drones to accomodate whichever of your two targets need more to get to 5.
Fire a Pathfinder squad next if you didn't QUITE get to five on one and split your fire appropriately to start the blood letting.
Now fire every large gun first. You don't want to waste a big hit on a wounded target so best to hit em with the big stuff first and see where that leaves you.
Now fire the smaller guns in descending order.
End with charging into anything the hounds can tie up.
I mean... I dont know how much skill that takes. Lol. Target priority is a thing you gotta get right with this army but that's just a general 40K familiarity thing and after a couple games its likely to come to you just fine. When to move to objectives is also a thing and thats a timing thing you'll get used to.
Sure. I will give you the 2K list I normally use at the moment. I'll explain if anyone has a question. if not then...hey!.
Honestly your list is not even that out of the left field as far as I am concerned, if you don't mind I am just gonna spout off my thoughts and see if you agree:
Gunrigs with full markerlight support are unusual in that they are directly comparable damage with longstrike, I dont remember the exact math but they are fine
Sniper drones are a bit weird but also fit into being the cheapest heavy support option, how have they been in your games?
Cannot really comment on Kroot, don't really know them I think they are meh or something? could be worse tho
Firesights are okay for starting markerlight chains same as cadres seems fine
Pathfinders we all know are good
I would question the large number of marker drones for moral reasons but you have Aun'Va so that is fine
Hounds are one of the best melee time wasters
Firewarriors good inf all good
Aun'Va is basicly a better ethreal right?
Carde Fireblades are good
Stormsurge is okay not amazing not bad either
Honestly looking at your list the most questionable units are probably the sniper drones but they are cheap heavy support options so it is fine even if they do nothing. Your list is the other viable option after commanders, just ignore all the gak options and take the okay options and outplay the other guy and that list is good, it is more reliant on not being gak then commander spam tho so I doubt you will see that much in the way of duplication. Honestly if I was willing to drop money on Tau stuff at the moment I would probably steal your list and do something like replace a few things with the one commander I have and maybe some stealth suits cause I like those.
The Gunrigs are hitting about 67% of the time with Markerlight support. That's the math. They hit like a truck.
Sniper Drones are just much tougher Fire Warriors with far better range. That also snipe.
Kroot are the Red herring. Use them to get someone to disembark and assault. Squishies are so in trouble when in the open. Kroot also can wrap up ome units if you dont deal with them and sorry bud, your Lascannon Predator isnt going to do much to it so at some point, someone has to get out and duke it out with them.
Firesight Marksmen are reliable Markerlights but they also make the Sniper Drones usable and having two discourages some players (Ive noticed) from trying to snipe THEM. After all, firing your scouts at the Stealth'd Marksman for rounds on end does little good when there is a second one standing right there! You'll kill more Marker Drones than you will Marksmen when you think about it.
Pathfinders: they dish damage very well. My regular Custodes opponent REALLY does not appreciate it. Lol.
The Marker swarm has been a staple of my army since it became possible. I used to protect them with an Irridium commander. Can't do that anymore but with Aun'Va around, Markerlights are actually less necessary. The attention Markerswoarms get is a bit less damaging. The focus on them has served me well at times... That assumes the enemy has the range to mess with them to an extent that hurts my overall chances. anyone who fights Tau knows better than to try and out gun me though. If they didn't know before, theywill soon learn.
Kroot Hounds are just so good. So good. I can't even speak enough superlatives in their direction.
Fire Warriors: Nuf said, rtight?
Aun'Va has been leading my forces for a long time. Between his ability and the auto-pass on a 6, it is rare for me to lose much in the way of leadership. More than that his mere presence gives my core firebase durability from the 6+ FnP and his "automarkerlight" aura.
Fireblades= markerlights on 2+ AND an aura of extra shots. Too good.
Stormsurge is a necessity like it was in 7th. People simply ARE bringing silly stuff to the tournaments I go to and you simply must have your anti-Magnus (or similar thing) in the list. I've already had to fight a Prophyrion titan thingee at a tournament for example. Crazy Forge World BS. So yeah: StormSurge isn't going anywhere, even if it is kinda just an anti-infantry gunboat. It's good at its job and if it dies, it probably won't be before it hurts someones feelings real bad. or dies round one. Whatevs. Lol.
If this is working well for you, color me impressed! I'm not sure it would work that well in my hyper-competitive meta, but it sure would be fun! What wouldn't be fun would be coming up with 24 Kroot Hounds...
Here are the qualifications I can give you for my Meta. It comes up a lot so what the hell. Maybe this can put it to sleep once and for all.
I was top 3% in the ITC last year (5575 generals competed last year). I attended the Bay Area Open, 3 GT's and 10 normal tournaments plus four more that were not ITC sanctioned events (of which i won two of those but they are not included in my ITC standing).
And since I get REAL tired of hearing about my Meta being soft (hilarious) here's the list of people I regularly went to tournaments against and with. These are just the ones I am most familiar with, excluding any that I am probably just not thinking of off the top of my head or didn't have a lot of contact with.
Regular opponents and fellow tourney goers include the following (from last years rankings):
3rd overall with Orcs
2nd, 3rd, and 6th as Necrons,
2nd as Deathwatch,
5th, 8th and 20th among Adeptus Astartes players,
14th as Blood angels,
6th as Chaos Daemons, 2nd as Harlequins and first among Imperial Knights (oh and btw, 11th in the entire ITC),
4th as Chaos Marines,
3rd among Dark Angels,
9th among Genestealer Cult players,
1st and 5th among Renegade Knights
3rd as Officio Assassinorum
3rd Among Skitarii
8th among Space Wolves
1st, 3rd, 5th, among Tau Empire
1st among Tyranids
846 teams registered and played in the ITC last year. Among them our regular opponents and fellow clubs which we regularly competed with were ranked #1, 7,11,14, 15. Our club was ranked #25 among all 846. Not shockingly, also top 3%
So. My meta, for anyone who wants to know, is this. My lists are built to deal with THIS and to my opponents outside of the many ITC tournaments I went to or were not this highly rated but still in the top 5%-10% of your armies, i salute you as well!
Your point is taken. I'm sorry if I seemed like I was looking down at you, I'm unfortunately very good at saying what I'm trying to say very badly and I end up offending people sometimes.
While I don't doubt your list is good and works even in your meta, I certainly expect that it takes a high degree of skill to play. I could sit down with this list and probably lose all 3 games in my local tournaments (where even compared to your meta the players are no slouches) simply due to not knowing how the list works and not having the tactical skill. I guess I need to "git gud" or something.
That said, I'm probably going to fiddle around in Battlescribe and see if I can do a similar list with the models I own. Maybe I'll pick some more up before I start playing Tau again.
Fair. I was not truly directing this at you per se, but just trying to nip it in the bud before it starts going down that road too far. Whenever seomone wants to tell me im stark raving mad, they always reach for the good old "opponent strength" thing off the shelf there and...well...I guess you can tell I don't like it very much. Lol.
As for skill: Maaaaaaaybe. But honestly I think that practice makes perfect.
The round goes like this:
the hounds flank and make the halo so drop troops cannot get in on you. Move up if it makes sense to with the rest. Red herring Kroot Vanguard move and then advance in the middle to intercept anything coming your way, to slow them down and ill blow a command point here if I need to to get them up there as far as possible. Kroot should be able to reach the 29 inch line and preferably in cover (not that it will help much).
Roll the Markerlights that hit on 2's.
Roll the Markerlights that hit on 3's
Split the Drones to accomodate whichever of your two targets need more to get to 5.
Fire a Pathfinder squad next if you didn't QUITE get to five on one and split your fire appropriately to start the blood letting.
Now fire every large gun first. You don't want to waste a big hit on a wounded target so best to hit em with the big stuff first and see where that leaves you.
Now fire the smaller guns in descending order.
End with charging into anything the hounds can tie up.
I mean... I dont know how much skill that takes. Lol. Target priority is a thing you gotta get right with this army but that's just a general 40K familiarity thing and after a couple games its likely to come to you just fine. When to move to objectives is also a thing and thats a timing thing you'll get used to.
Jancoran thanks for posting, while some elements of your list is not my style you gave me a few ideas. We play between 700 pts to 1.5k which caused me to use Outrider 1CP due to cost. But your 3 cheap Heavy, Elite and HQ solves the pts problem making Brigade viable for my builds. Plus I like the hounds to stop deep strikers. Our local Tyranid player likes to deepstrike 20 Termagants in for 60shots with reroll 1's. Hounds, what a cheap counter to his high pts cost deep strike.
Have you tried deploying the pathfinders and pulse Accelector drone and separating the drone away from the pathfinders? Vanguard the Pathfinders, then if you are allowed Vanguard the drone towards the firewarriors with Fireblade. If that’s not allowed just move/advance the single drone. In the middle of 4 Firewarrior squads that’s 36” range with 3 shots out to 18”
Have you tried taking 5 missile pod support turrets with those squads? Its something I have been thinking about but not tried. With markerlight support what are you thoughts on turrets with missiles or SMS for those firewarrirors?
Jancoran thanks for posting, while some elements of your list is not my style you gave me a few ideas. We play between 700 pts to 1.5k which caused me to use Outrider 1CP due to cost. But your 3 cheap Heavy, Elite and HQ solves the pts problem making Brigade viable for my builds. Plus I like the hounds to stop deep strikers. Our local Tyranid player likes to deepstrike 20 Termagants in for 60shots with reroll 1's. Hounds, what a cheap counter to his high pts cost deep strike.
Have you tried deploying the pathfinders and pulse Accelector drone and separating the drone away from the pathfinders? Vanguard the Pathfinders, then if you are allowed Vanguard the drone towards the firewarriors with Fireblade. If that’s not allowed just move/advance the single drone. In the middle of 4 Firewarrior squads that’s 36” range with 3 shots out to 18”
Have you tried taking 5 missile pod support turrets with those squads? Its something I have been thinking about but not tried. With markerlight support what are you thoughts on turrets with missiles or SMS for those firewarrirors?
Hounds and the Kroot really help form what I have dubbed the "halo" against deep strike, and the Kroot are my "if i'm not going first, I can create the halo around my firebase with THEM" unit.
I don't use the Drone on my Pathfinders, but I definitely like that idea. Definitely like that idea. I think the accelerator drone works on specific weapons right? Not spectifi units? No codex in front of my right now but that's a great tip and not even an expensive change, really. I'm tight for points but it seems like a worthwhile thing to include.
The turrets are really a great upgrade in my mind and I have faced off against them of course. I can never seem to free up enough points for it but my friend does this to good effect and i do curse a little tiny bit when he fires them. Lol. I feel as if I can get that production elsewhere, but if I was to commit more to fire warrior numbers, I would probably do it. I just dont see the point in adding it to units as small as mine. The other thing is i do stay a bit more mobile than my army list suggests, and that is tough on you if you have the missiles. So I think I just play too mobile personally to make it work but i do think less mobile forces should consider that as a worthwhile investment. My friend certainly gets his pound of flesh out of their ability to hit things he cant see.
Jancoran thanks for posting, while some elements of your list is not my style you gave me a few ideas. We play between 700 pts to 1.5k which caused me to use Outrider 1CP due to cost. But your 3 cheap Heavy, Elite and HQ solves the pts problem making Brigade viable for my builds. Plus I like the hounds to stop deep strikers. Our local Tyranid player likes to deepstrike 20 Termagants in for 60shots with reroll 1's. Hounds, what a cheap counter to his high pts cost deep strike.
Have you tried deploying the pathfinders and pulse Accelector drone and separating the drone away from the pathfinders? Vanguard the Pathfinders, then if you are allowed Vanguard the drone towards the firewarriors with Fireblade. If that’s not allowed just move/advance the single drone. In the middle of 4 Firewarrior squads that’s 36” range with 3 shots out to 18”
Have you tried taking 5 missile pod support turrets with those squads? Its something I have been thinking about but not tried. With markerlight support what are you thoughts on turrets with missiles or SMS for those firewarrirors?
Hounds and the Kroot really help form what I have dubbed the "halo" against deep strike, and the Kroot are my "if i'm not going first, I can create the halo around my firebase with THEM" unit.
I don't use the Drone on my Pathfinders, but I definitely like that idea. Definitely like that idea. I think the accelerator drone works on specific weapons right? Not spectifi units? No codex in front of my right now but that's a great tip and not even an expensive change, really. I'm tight for points but it seems like a worthwhile thing to include.
One of these days I am going try 4 full sized fire warrior squads with a fireblade and range extend drone in the middle of all 4.
The turrets are really a great upgrade in my mind and I have faced off against them of course. I can never seem to free up enough points for it but my friend does this to good effect and i do curse a little tiny bit when he fires them. Lol. I feel as if I can get that production elsewhere, but if I was to commit more to fire warrior numbers, I would probably do it. I just dont see the point in adding it to units as small as mine. The other thing is i do stay a bit more mobile than my army list suggests, and that is tough on you if you have the missiles. So I think I just play too mobile personally to make it work but i do think less mobile forces should consider that as a worthwhile investment. My friend certainly gets his pound of flesh out of their ability to hit things he cant see.
That’s correct the drone is specific weapons although it does say infantry units so no drone boost :(. I use the drone between two gunrigs or behind so it’s out of enemy LOS. The drone pass’s the aura onto the Gunrig which pass’s the Aura down to the embarked pathfinders for the carbines when I don't need more maker shots. I see no reason we cannot put a 2 firewarror squads in 2 gunrigs and have a Fireblade and range extend drone passing both aura’s into both gunrigs for the squads.
EDIT: I keep meaning to try 4 full sized firewarror squads with a Fireblade and range extend drone in the middle boosting them all.
well when you have 144 shots blasting in on 3'1. rerolling 1's... That's 127 hits at STR 5. Just sayin. Even against T4, and 3+ saves (MEQ) you're doing more than 21 usaved wounds with just those four units. A bit scary. Most marine armies have like 50-60 models at the best of times so....This would be quite a blow from less than 400 points of your army. This does require the Markerlights to make it work so its not TRULY less than 400 points of your army, but it illustrates the point.You could definitely march forward with confidence using that kind of firepower.
Jancoran wrote: well when you have 144 shots blasting in on 3'1. rerolling 1's... That's 127 hits at STR 5. Just sayin. Even against T4, and 3+ saves (MEQ) you're doing more than 21 usaved wounds with just those four units. A bit scary. Most marine armies have like 50-60 models at the best of times so....This would be quite a blow from less than 400 points of your army. This does require the Markerlights to make it work so its not TRULY less than 400 points of your army, but it illustrates the point.You could definitely march forward with confidence using that kind of firepower.
Which means you either brought a massive amount of markerlights in order to get five on several targets, or you overkilled a single squad and your effectiveness drops considerably from there.
In my experience it's best not to assume you'll ever have a 3+ to hit, even if you're taking a decent amount of markerlights. Either your opponent is not so foolish as to ignore them, or in the case that they do, it's still better to get one markerlight on several enemy units than it is to get several on one. I've played over a dozen games, and I've gotten five markerlights on a Target exactly once. Usually I end up with three, which is essentially the same as one in most cases, or four, which is wasted when the target is not in cover.
Buuuut, those are all issues with markerlights, honestly.
Jancoran wrote: well when you have 144 shots blasting in on 3'1. rerolling 1's... That's 127 hits at STR 5. Just sayin. Even against T4, and 3+ saves (MEQ) you're doing more than 21 usaved wounds with just those four units. A bit scary. Most marine armies have like 50-60 models at the best of times so....This would be quite a blow from less than 400 points of your army. This does require the Markerlights to make it work so its not TRULY less than 400 points of your army, but it illustrates the point.You could definitely march forward with confidence using that kind of firepower.
Which means you either brought a massive amount of markerlights in order to get five on several targets, or you overkilled a single squad and your effectiveness drops considerably from there.
In my experience it's best not to assume you'll ever have a 3+ to hit, even if you're taking a decent amount of markerlights. Either your opponent is not so foolish as to ignore them, or in the case that they do, it's still better to get one markerlight on several enemy units than it is to get several on one. I've played over a dozen games, and I've gotten five markerlights on a Target exactly once. Usually I end up with three, which is essentially the same as one in most cases, or four, which is wasted when the target is not in cover.
Buuuut, those are all issues with markerlights, honestly.
When you have 2 marksmen hitting on 3+ and 2 fireblades hitting on 2+ it shouldn't be that hard to get 5 hits with 1 pathfinder squad sitting inside the gunrig so the enemy cannot kill them easily. Or you can take a droneport with fireblade and 4 marker drones. That's 5 marker hits that all hit on 2+. Add in an extra pathfinder squad and your all sorted.
4. Can a Missle Pod be deployed on the Shieldline, when there are already 10 models "embarked"? If not, where can it be deployed? I assume you mean the Tactical Support Turret. No. The Strike Team models are not placed on the battlefield thus cannot fulfill the requirements to deploy the turret. Rules as of now make this fortification a fancy transport. That begs the question.... can an already 10 model strong unit be embarked on the Shieldline if it includes a turret that would make it 11 models?
Index Xenos 2 pages 57 and 76.
Can't move the Turret for any reason, Embarking is considered a form of movement.
As you also said, can't place it in coherency while inside.
Agreed, and still does not answer the question, can a 10 FW strong unit be embarked on the Shieldline if they include a turret? Remember, the unit can start the game embarked.
A Turret never starts on the field, at the end of a turn a FW team can place the Turret in Coherency.
This means that 'Yes' you CAN be inside a Shield Line/Devilfish if the unit "includes" a turret.
The turret is NOT be deployed, it will basically be in storage awaiting to be deployed.
The unit may NOT deploy a turret while it is inside a Shield Line/Devilfish
A unit that embarks into a Shield Line/Devilfish would destroy the turret upon entering
Basically, there is no way to have a Turret shooting from inside a Shield Line or Devilfish
How do you protect your gunrigs from melee? It seems that they're exactly the kind of unit that a Landspeeder or assault marine will rush over and tie into melee. They don't fly, so that firepower goes kaput.
It's the main reason I haven't started eyeballin' 'em.
Jancoran wrote: well when you have 144 shots blasting in on 3'1. rerolling 1's... That's 127 hits at STR 5. Just sayin. Even against T4, and 3+ saves (MEQ) you're doing more than 21 usaved wounds with just those four units. A bit scary. Most marine armies have like 50-60 models at the best of times so....This would be quite a blow from less than 400 points of your army. This does require the Markerlights to make it work so its not TRULY less than 400 points of your army, but it illustrates the point.You could definitely march forward with confidence using that kind of firepower.
Which means you either brought a massive amount of markerlights in order to get five on several targets, or you overkilled a single squad and your effectiveness drops considerably from there.
In my experience it's best not to assume you'll ever have a 3+ to hit, even if you're taking a decent amount of markerlights. Either your opponent is not so foolish as to ignore them, or in the case that they do, it's still better to get one markerlight on several enemy units than it is to get several on one. I've played over a dozen games, and I've gotten five markerlights on a Target exactly once. Usually I end up with three, which is essentially the same as one in most cases, or four, which is wasted when the target is not in cover.
Buuuut, those are all issues with markerlights, honestly.
Whereas I get five on two targets basicaklly every time foth first couple rounds. That's where we differ.
Opponents can't stop 28 Markerlights, 14 of which are secluded inside Gunrigs, though they sorely would like to I suppose? If I nix two entire squads... or...I kill 7 Custodes this way ( as an example. since I do face them now) well... Winning!
Wakshaani wrote: How do you protect your gunrigs from melee? It seems that they're exactly the kind of unit that a Landspeeder or assault marine will rush over and tie into melee. They don't fly, so that firepower goes kaput.
It's the main reason I haven't started eyeballin' 'em.
They can still shoot even when an enemy is within 1". Passengers are stopped from shooting but this is one use for the hounds. To counter charge or slow down the assault marines.
Wakshaani wrote: How do you protect your gunrigs from melee? It seems that they're exactly the kind of unit that a Landspeeder or assault marine will rush over and tie into melee. They don't fly, so that firepower goes kaput.
It's the main reason I haven't started eyeballin' 'em.
deploy them quite far from the enemy and/or bubblewrap them with stuff you'd normally put inside
The Kroot and their Vanguard move creates a halo for my Gunrigs and such when I don't go first, and then the Kroot Hounds push out and hide, threatening anything that comes from the flanks on their first turn. So it usually makes it difficult for anyone to grapple me quickly. So the enemy is usually not getting to me until round 3. By then, they may not really be too focused on a Gunrig. maybe they will;, but at that point I will care less.
Okay so how are Tau going to be balanced, here are a couple of themes are going to be addressed;
1) Markerlights (lots of room to do different things here, perhaps using CP to use alternate tables)
2) Commander Spam (I think this may just be a limit on the weapon loadouts. I've seen supicious 3-weapon only load-outs on commanders on certain Frontline gaming battle reports, maybe increase points or remove the Character rule.
3) Riptide (Cost and/or weapon stat change)
4) Stormsurge (The only thing that needs adjusting here is the destroyer missed and the main weapon options.. to make them actually threatening, for the cost).
5) The general use of CP to make certain units more viable or provide interesting unique effects.
6) Possibility of expanding on the Mont'ka and Kauyon themes. Thinking chapter tactics?
Razerous wrote: Okay so how are Tau going to be balanced, here are a couple of themes are going to be addressed;
1) Markerlights (lots of room to do different things here, perhaps using CP to use alternate tables)
2) Commander Spam (I think this may just be a limit on the weapon loadouts. I've seen supicious 3-weapon only load-outs on commanders on certain Frontline gaming battle reports, maybe increase points or remove the Character rule.
3) Riptide (Cost and/or weapon stat change)
4) Stormsurge (The only thing that needs adjusting here is the destroyer missed and the main weapon options.. to make them actually threatening, for the cost).
5) The general use of CP to make certain units more viable or provide interesting unique effects.
6) Possibility of expanding on the Mont'ka and Kauyon themes. Thinking chapter tactics?
Thoughts? Missed anything vital?
The reason Commander Spam is an issue is that they overpriced a lot of our units for the firepower they bring (such as Crisis suits, Broadsides etc.), not to mention the loss of the game mechanic which made some of those units viable and which had been a core feature of the army from its very inception (jump-shoot-jump).
Making Commanders less effective does not fix the reason that it is being used, which is that the rest of our sources of equivalent firepower are now mediocre for the points you pay. Then there is the clusterfeth of the current markerlight system and its frequent clashes with our support systems which means that if you're packing markerlights you basically have no need of support systems except for some drone controllers or shield generators.
Razerous wrote: Okay so how are Tau going to be balanced, here are a couple of themes are going to be addressed;
1) Markerlights (lots of room to do different things here, perhaps using CP to use alternate tables)
2) Commander Spam (I think this may just be a limit on the weapon loadouts. I've seen supicious 3-weapon only load-outs on commanders on certain Frontline gaming battle reports, maybe increase points or remove the Character rule.
3) Riptide (Cost and/or weapon stat change)
4) Stormsurge (The only thing that needs adjusting here is the destroyer missed and the main weapon options.. to make them actually threatening, for the cost).
5) The general use of CP to make certain units more viable or provide interesting unique effects.
6) Possibility of expanding on the Mont'ka and Kauyon themes. Thinking chapter tactics?
Thoughts? Missed anything vital?
Reduce Commanders to 3 Systems + 1 Command System
Reduce the cost of everything not named Drone or Commander by like 20-40%
Razerous wrote: Okay so how are Tau going to be balanced, here are a couple of themes are going to be addressed;
1) Markerlights (lots of room to do different things here, perhaps using CP to use alternate tables)
2) Commander Spam (I think this may just be a limit on the weapon loadouts. I've seen supicious 3-weapon only load-outs on commanders on certain Frontline gaming battle reports, maybe increase points or remove the Character rule.
3) Riptide (Cost and/or weapon stat change)
4) Stormsurge (The only thing that needs adjusting here is the destroyer missed and the main weapon options.. to make them actually threatening, for the cost).
5) The general use of CP to make certain units more viable or provide interesting unique effects.
6) Possibility of expanding on the Mont'ka and Kauyon themes. Thinking chapter tactics?
Thoughts? Missed anything vital?
The Riptide pricing definitely needs revisiting but we'll see about that. I dont know where the happy medium is but we can easily see that its too expensive right now.
The Stormsurge seems pretty threatening even with its current missiles and Im not so sure i agree here. i kind of think they hit the nail o nthe head. i dont want to go back to the Warhammer where there just was never any question about what to take in a super build. i like the variety of units im now seeing. No one wants a repeat of the hate that sometimes accompanied some units.
I hope they have SEPT SPECIFIC stuff like they did for Chaos.
Razerous wrote: Okay so how are Tau going to be balanced, here are a couple of themes are going to be addressed;
1) Markerlights (lots of room to do different things here, perhaps using CP to use alternate tables)
2) Commander Spam (I think this may just be a limit on the weapon loadouts. I've seen supicious 3-weapon only load-outs on commanders on certain Frontline gaming battle reports, maybe increase points or remove the Character rule.
3) Riptide (Cost and/or weapon stat change)
4) Stormsurge (The only thing that needs adjusting here is the destroyer missed and the main weapon options.. to make them actually threatening, for the cost).
5) The general use of CP to make certain units more viable or provide interesting unique effects.
6) Possibility of expanding on the Mont'ka and Kauyon themes. Thinking chapter tactics?
Thoughts? Missed anything vital?
1- yeah, I think the table needs some improvements
2- 3w+1ss will still make people use Commanders. Fix Crisis and Broadsides first. At most, increase Commander points to 200 when carrying 4 fusion blasters. Also, no way they'll remove Character from him - makes absolutely no sense.
3- yep
4- let it be a battlesuit and it magically becomes much more interesting. Destroyer and Seeker missiles are a problem on themselves
5- this is too broad. Units shouldn't become more viable because of CP, but because they're balanced towards each other. CP is better used for 'special effects' stuff.
6- We already know that AdMech will get rules for 7 forge worlds. It's not a stretch to think that Tau will get rules for 7 septs as well, similar to chapter tactics. I don't think they'll interact with Mont'ka/Kayuon.
i just played a game with a friend. We are both new players.
I play Daemons, he plays Tau. While playing, a few questions concerning his Tau force occured.
1. May units be set up on a Tidewall Shieldline (Deployment)? No. It is a fortification with a transport capacity. See the embarked models rules.
BrB page 183
7-Zark-7
Thank you very much!
I am going to have to disagree with the ruling on being able to deploy troop in the fortification. At minimum all of the T'au fortifications also have the key word transport. So YES a person can deploy the fortification and them put troops in them.
I think it was Extreme to increase our costs going into 8e by 200-400% when other armies saw around a 20-30% increase
Thats a bit hyperbolic don't you think? in general infantry went down and in general NOT-infantry went up. Armor for some armies costs a LOT more and so I mean? I dunno. I thik they missed a little on Broadsides and Riptides, but other than those two i havent really been "offended" by the cost changes. Some stuff got cheaper and better!
i just played a game with a friend. We are both new players.
I play Daemons, he plays Tau. While playing, a few questions concerning his Tau force occured.
1. May units be set up on a Tidewall Shieldline (Deployment)? No. It is a fortification with a transport capacity. See the embarked models rules.
BrB page 183
7-Zark-7
Thank you very much!
I am going to have to disagree with the ruling on being able to deploy troop in the fortification. At minimum all of the T'au fortifications also have the key word transport. So YES a person can deploy the fortification and them put troops in them.
i just played a game with a friend. We are both new players.
I play Daemons, he plays Tau. While playing, a few questions concerning his Tau force occured.
1. May units be set up on a Tidewall Shieldline (Deployment)? No. It is a fortification with a transport capacity. See the embarked models rules.
BrB page 183
7-Zark-7
Thank you very much!
I am going to have to disagree with the ruling on being able to deploy troop in the fortification. At minimum all of the T'au fortifications also have the key word transport. So YES a person can deploy the fortification and them put troops in them.
Transport means transport. So.
I was pointing out the flaw in the ruling given to a fellow player as to not have it be a super weird moment for them in a future game.
Transport key word versus Dedicated transport unit type. Even GW means Key word Transport because it is in the first line of the rule. But if you want to take the position of telling me I can't put my dudes in my forts by all means. . . No using the scenario play type.
Also I loved the list you put up it definitely gives me the I can play T'au again and not commander spam. I plan putting up a 1600 point list in he not to distant future to see what people think.
I was pointing out the flaw in the ruling given to a fellow player as to not have it be a super weird moment for them in a future game.
Transport key word versus Dedicated transport unit type. Even GW means Key word Transport because it is in the first line of the rule. But if you want to take the position of telling me I can't put my dudes in my forts by all means. . . No using the scenario play type.
Also I loved the list you put up it definitely gives me the I can play T'au again and not commander spam. I plan putting up a 1600 point list in he not to distant future to see what people think.
Yeah I ttoally got what you were saying.
And thank you. For sure, don't be afraid to experiment with ideas.
I saw a really good list recently that featured three Ghostkeels. Those Ghostkeels were my favorite things at the end of 7th. I was just so jazzed that they found a way to make the Stealthsuits good. The Ghostkeels were the solo reason I had for being sad for an 8th Edition. But it turns out, they re actually QUITE good still and I have gotten to see it perform very well.
Stealth suits themselves are a lot tougher now and so they make a world of sense compared to their old form (not that it ever stopped ME ,but Im just saying, they ARE better now). I saw a guy do most of his damage during one game using them and of course Shadowsun.
Yet another guy in our gaming circles who doesnt really play tournaments like we do but does play somewhat frequently has a bunch of Stingwings and he does well with em.
I am not surprised at the fall from grace of the Riptide. the points are...intense...for that model now. I need to get a list together and try them again. I play so many forces that its hard to get to everything but I imagine I could figure a way to use them.
While the Riptide isn’t worth the pts at least it works. Last time I used the Riptide it was a marine killer. Novacharged the Burst every turn with ATS and those 12 shots, S6 -3AP was wiping out marine units a turn. They would take so many wounds they would fail the morale check and lose more. Still I would rather pay a little extra and take a stormsurge.
I was pointing out the flaw in the ruling given to a fellow player as to not have it be a super weird moment for them in a future game.
Transport key word versus Dedicated transport unit type. Even GW means Key word Transport because it is in the first line of the rule. But if you want to take the position of telling me I can't put my dudes in my forts by all means. . . No using the scenario play type.
Also I loved the list you put up it definitely gives me the I can play T'au again and not commander spam. I plan putting up a 1600 point list in he not to distant future to see what people think.
Yeah I ttoally got what you were saying.
And thank you. For sure, don't be afraid to experiment with ideas.
I saw a really good list recently that featured three Ghostkeels. Those Ghostkeels were my favorite things at the end of 7th. I was just so jazzed that they found a way to make the Stealthsuits good. The Ghostkeels were the solo reason I had for being sad for an 8th Edition. But it turns out, they re actually QUITE good still and I have gotten to see it perform very well.
Stealth suits themselves are a lot tougher now and so they make a world of sense compared to their old form (not that it ever stopped ME ,but Im just saying, they ARE better now). I saw a guy do most of his damage during one game using them and of course Shadowsun.
Yet another guy in our gaming circles who doesnt really play tournaments like we do but does play somewhat frequently has a bunch of Stingwings and he does well with em.
I am not surprised at the fall from grace of the Riptide. the points are...intense...for that model now. I need to get a list together and try them again. I play so many forces that its hard to get to everything but I imagine I could figure a way to use them.
Alright, you got me interested. Can you tell me more about the three Ghostkeel list? Mine are sitting on a shelf looking really sad.
3pl Kroot Carnivores x10 w/ kroot rifle
3pl Strike Team x5 w/pulse rifle and pulse pistol for sergeant
3pl Strike Team x5 w/pulse rifle and pulse pistol for sergeant
6pl Pathfinder Team x4 w/ carbine and Markerlight x3 w/Ion Rifle
6pl Pathfinder Team x4 w/ carbine and Markerlight x3 w/Ion Rifle
10pl Hammerhead Gunship w/ rail-gun and 2 gun drones
Outrider Detachment (598pts)
2pl Cadre Fireblade: w/pulse rifle and marker light
2pl Cadre Fireblade: w/pulse rifle and marker light
7pl Devilfish: w/ burst cannon and 2 gun drones
7pl Devilfish: w/ burst cannon and 2 gun drones
The idea is to force the opponent to make tough decisions as to which set of incredibly durable thing they want to kill first. The pathfinders and a fireblade go in the drone ports. The strike teams go in the gunring. 10 drones an a fireblade in each transport. The Kroot are chaff to go in front of the gunring.
The fireblade in the drone port controls the drones and now there are x5 BS:2+ shots. One from the fireblade himself the other from the 4 marker drones. Totaling 10 BS:2+ Marker shots before the following 8 pathfinders even mark their targets.
The fireblade and drones in the transport are going to be the front line of troop removal. Roll up on the marked unit shoot it up and move on. The tanks and gunring shoot the big thing. With marker and long strike it's a high likelihood to hit and wound with the tanks. The pathfinders have their ion rifles to play clean up on troops while the strike teams will support them.
Side note, is there a ruling out there about fortification moving and shooting with the heavy gun? Because I'd keep the gunring still in the backfield if it receives a -1 when it moves.
I'm posting my 2k list to see if I can get some feedback. Its a list that I am trying to help a friend out for this weekends tournament that's a Crucible Qualifier, so I'm trying to make it as competitive as I can with the models I have. Thank for the feed back of helping me possibly make it even better in the future.
I'm posting my 2k list to see if I can get some feedback. Its a list that I am trying to help a friend out for this weekends tournament that's a Crucible Qualifier, so I'm trying to make it as competitive as I can with the models I have. Thank for the feed back of helping me possibly make it even better in the future.
Ok your issue is going to be low model count and possibly getting wrecked if you lose the 1st turn.
Tactically: what ever is on the board needs to cover your backfield to prevent drop-pods and the like.... that is if you plan on staying there.
Your fusion commanders should have a marker drone with them. You only need 1 to hit to have all the fusion hits versus the chance of missing with some. I am not sure as to why you just don't have more pathfinders instead of marker drones. Look at the grav-inhibitor drone for the pathfinders in cover. The additional negative to a charge roll will help more than you think. I'm also wondering why rail-rifles when you have that damage level covered in spades. Going 3 i-r vs 2 r-r may be better in the long run and also free up some points; you could also do 1 r-r and 2 i-r for the same cost.
If the xv9's are deep striking why not bring the extra drones you have a 4 man squad of and put it with them? Each xv9 can take up to 4 drones as war gear. So a mix of gun drones and marker drones there will help the effectiveness as well. Even a shield drone or 2 if they target the drones straight up. Even the trade off for more crisis suits with CIB and ATS or fusion and Shield might work out better (forget the stats on the fusion cascade).
These are all thoughts so take them as you will. What I look for in lists is role and function and what it wants to do. So a drop in to deliver death listl looks differently than my light it up with markers and all the S5 (poke to death)
Pottsey wrote: While the Riptide isn’t worth the pts at least it works. Last time I used the Riptide it was a marine killer. Novacharged the Burst every turn with ATS and those 12 shots, S6 -3AP was wiping out marine units a turn. They would take so many wounds they would fail the morale check and lose more. Still I would rather pay a little extra and take a stormsurge.
The Stormsurge is kind of a necessary evil because of Magnus and his ilk. I have played against some other really mean models with 30 wounds from ForgeWorld. theres just no way to make it through that many wounds reliably and in a reasonable amount of time without the Stormsurge.
Side note, is there a ruling out there about fortification moving and shooting with the heavy gun? Because I'd keep the gunring still in the backfield if it receives a -1 when it moves.
All heavy weapons inflict the penalty unless you have a rule, like power of the machine spirit, to negate it.
Ok your issue is going to be low model count and possibly getting wrecked if you lose the 1st turn.
Tactically: what ever is on the board needs to cover your backfield to prevent drop-pods and the like.... that is if you plan on staying there.
Your fusion commanders should have a marker drone with them. You only need 1 to hit to have all the fusion hits versus the chance of missing with some. I am not sure as to why you just don't have more pathfinders instead of marker drones. Look at the grav-inhibitor drone for the pathfinders in cover. The additional negative to a charge roll will help more than you think. I'm also wondering why rail-rifles when you have that damage level covered in spades. Going 3 i-r vs 2 r-r may be better in the long run and also free up some points; you could also do 1 r-r and 2 i-r for the same cost.
If the xv9's are deep striking why not bring the extra drones you have a 4 man squad of and put it with them? Each xv9 can take up to 4 drones as war gear. So a mix of gun drones and marker drones there will help the effectiveness as well. Even a shield drone or 2 if they target the drones straight up. Even the trade off for more crisis suits with CIB and ATS or fusion and Shield might work out better (forget the stats on the fusion cascade).
These are all thoughts so take them as you will. What I look for in lists is role and function and what it wants to do. So a drop in to deliver death listl looks differently than my light it up with markers and all the S5 (poke to death)
That is really great advise. Thanks a lot.
I do believe the xv9 says a unit can only take 4 drones, which is why I stopped at 4. I see exactly what you are saying about the marker drones with the commander. I just keep seeing list with the shield drone set up more which is why I went that route.
I haven't tried the gravity inhibitors yet but I will test it now.
Back to your statement about drop in death or poke armies, would you even field strike teams then if you were going for a drop in death team? If not I was kinda leaning towards all pathfinders infinity. My only concern is not being able to capture objectives over troops (boots on the ground).
Again thanks a lot for helping this new player here @ishotfirst.
I'm posting my 2k list to see if I can get some feedback. Its a list that I am trying to help a friend out for this weekends tournament that's a Crucible Qualifier, so I'm trying to make it as competitive as I can with the models I have. Thank for the feed back of helping me possibly make it even better in the future.
I am unsure what the advantage is of putting the Gun Drones in the Fire Warrior Squad or Coldstar. I'd separate those into their own unit. Less kill points to give up. They are already separate from the unit once you deploy anyways. They split fire anyways also... So...
Definitely put three rail rifles in their Pathfinder squads.Someone made an excellent point about the Accelerator Drone being good for then moving to be near the Firewarriors... Seems worth adding.
I think this list is GENERALLY short range (to be effective) and that kinda bugs me. It's got no long range whittling ability. Most of its punch comes at 12-18 inch range. I think you probably need a halo as well. I'd sacrifice a commander and perhaps add the Kroot Mercenaries for the same reason I did: when not going first, you want to force the eenmy OUTward from you. The Kroot Mercenaries do that for you (their Vanguard move). Plus four commanders is probably overkill, especially if they are all short range like yours. Just food for thought.
ishotfirst wrote:
Ok your issue is going to be low model count and possibly getting wrecked if you lose the 1st turn.
Tactically: what ever is on the board needs to cover your backfield to prevent drop-pods and the like.... that is if you plan on staying there.
Your fusion commanders should have a marker drone with them. You only need 1 to hit to have all the fusion hits versus the chance of missing with some. I am not sure as to why you just don't have more pathfinders instead of marker drones. Look at the grav-inhibitor drone for the pathfinders in cover. The additional negative to a charge roll will help more than you think. I'm also wondering why rail-rifles when you have that damage level covered in spades. Going 3 i-r vs 2 r-r may be better in the long run and also free up some points; you could also do 1 r-r and 2 i-r for the same cost.
If the xv9's are deep striking why not bring the extra drones you have a 4 man squad of and put it with them? Each xv9 can take up to 4 drones as war gear. So a mix of gun drones and marker drones there will help the effectiveness as well. Even a shield drone or 2 if they target the drones straight up. Even the trade off for more crisis suits with CIB and ATS or fusion and Shield might work out better (forget the stats on the fusion cascade).
These are all thoughts so take them as you will. What I look for in lists is role and function and what it wants to do. So a drop in to deliver death listl looks differently than my light it up with markers and all the S5 (poke to death)
That is really great advise. Thanks a lot.
I do believe the xv9 says a unit can only take 4 drones, which is why I stopped at 4. I see exactly what you are saying about the marker drones with the commander. I just keep seeing list with the shield drone set up more which is why I went that route.
I haven't tried the gravity inhibitors yet but I will test it now.
Back to your statement about drop in death or poke armies, would you even field strike teams then if you were going for a drop in death team? If not I was kinda leaning towards all pathfinders infinity. My only concern is not being able to capture objectives over troops (boots on the ground).
Again thanks a lot for helping this new player here @ishotfirst.
The strike teams have been consistently not worth it for me this edition. In 7th you could see strike teams for miles.. The use of pathfinders have been the norm with the new edition and after a handful of games I don't see why large squads of strike teams are worth it. Especially with the new moral rules and needing to dump extra points on an ethereal to babysit them. IF you can; a very strong boots on the ground move is to have 10 gun drones (2 teams of 5 is how I run them) and a fireblade in a Devilfish. Each gundrone is a burst cannon with a fireblade at half-range it's 2 burst cannons per gun drone. The fire blade shoots his marker-light and now you reroll 1's. The devilish is the armor to survive the opening shots or getting you across the field the fireblade won't die to snipers because of drone sacrifice.
There is the stealth suit, shadowsun, and gun drone dakka ball that exists as well. I have had some fun with that in less comptive games.
Some people have been successful with the Kroot option. . . I have not. They just tend to be mowed down in the 1st turn for me. You will probably end up losing the rest to morale loss unless the ethereal is there to babysit. But if you need bubble wrap for something 10 Kroot the the cheapest option an limit kill points.
Pathfinders are great so far this edition compared to others but don't go hog wild on buying a bunch until our actual codex hits. This way you can see what new things exist with sept options. Something may catch your eye then you'd be stuck with a lot of unused models. Case and point my pile of gun drones are finally being used again for something other than c-c bubble-wrap. Same with my Kroot... but they may be going back into the box. My pathfinders have become my new backfield holding units taking the place of my strike teams but can also pack a punch with r-r and i-r.
Would drone controller plus 1 to the roll stack? for example my crisis suits has 2 guys in it with drone controller, do the giv plus 2 to the roll to a marker or gun drone?
The strike teams have been consistently not worth it for me this edition. In 7th you could see strike teams for miles.. The use of pathfinders have been the norm with the new edition and after a handful of games I don't see why large squads of strike teams are worth it. Especially with the new moral rules and needing to dump extra points on an ethereal to babysit them. IF you can; a very strong boots on the ground move is to have 10 gun drones (2 teams of 5 is how I run them) and a fireblade in a Devilfish. Each gundrone is a burst cannon with a fireblade at half-range it's 2 burst cannons per gun drone. The fire blade shoots his marker-light and now you reroll 1's. The devilish is the armor to survive the opening shots or getting you across the field the fireblade won't die to snipers because of drone sacrifice.
There is the stealth suit, shadowsun, and gun drone dakka ball that exists as well. I have had some fun with that in less comptive games.
Some people have been successful with the Kroot option. . . I have not. They just tend to be mowed down in the 1st turn for me. You will probably end up losing the rest to morale loss unless the ethereal is there to babysit. But if you need bubble wrap for something 10 Kroot the the cheapest option an limit kill points.
Pathfinders are great so far this edition compared to others but don't go hog wild on buying a bunch until our actual codex hits. This way you can see what new things exist with sept options. Something may catch your eye then you'd be stuck with a lot of unused models. Case and point my pile of gun drones are finally being used again for something other than c-c bubble-wrap. Same with my Kroot... but they may be going back into the box. My pathfinders have become my new backfield holding units taking the place of my strike teams but can also pack a punch with r-r and i-r.
Strike Teams are like other units in the Tau Empire: they reach their optimal performance in context, not alone. Hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1 at STR 5 is very excellent, and at close range with three shots each doing that? Good times.
I submit to you that the Ethereal does more than babysit. It gives the Firewarriors a free markerlight if they DONT want to help nuke a target. And if you take Aun'Va, they are re-rolling morale on a 9, so even when they lose SIX Fire Warriors, the worst you can lose is 2 to morale, and that's assuming you even DO with the re-roll of morale he gives. Aun'Va is my fav.
The Kroot are to protect you with their Vanguard move. Taking a whole bunch may be a pointless exercize but in 50% of your games, you are GOING to need them to project a halo outward.
Would drone controller plus 1 to the roll stack? for example my crisis suits has 2 guys in it with drone controller, do the giv plus 2 to the roll to a marker or gun drone?
No. Ten Drone controllers would still only be +1. BUUUUUUUT...Firesight Marksmen and Drone Controller makes Sniper Drones hit on 3's (re-rolling 1's when markerlit or when near Aun'Va) and that does NOT suck
Would drone controller plus 1 to the roll stack? for example my crisis suits has 2 guys in it with drone controller, do the giv plus 2 to the roll to a marker or gun drone?
The drone controller is a flat +1 to the BS. So they go from 5 to 4. The re rolling of 1's is a different ability so it does stack in. So if a marker light was on a target and the drones shot at it with a buff from a drone controller they would hit on 4+ and re roll 1's. The re rolls are also resolved at a 4+ to hit.
The strike teams have been consistently not worth it for me this edition. In 7th you could see strike teams for miles.. The use of pathfinders have been the norm with the new edition and after a handful of games I don't see why large squads of strike teams are worth it. Especially with the new moral rules and needing to dump extra points on an ethereal to babysit them. IF you can; a very strong boots on the ground move is to have 10 gun drones (2 teams of 5 is how I run them) and a fireblade in a Devilfish. Each gundrone is a burst cannon with a fireblade at half-range it's 2 burst cannons per gun drone. The fire blade shoots his marker-light and now you reroll 1's. The devilish is the armor to survive the opening shots or getting you across the field the fireblade won't die to snipers because of drone sacrifice.
There is the stealth suit, shadowsun, and gun drone dakka ball that exists as well. I have had some fun with that in less comptive games.
Some people have been successful with the Kroot option. . . I have not. They just tend to be mowed down in the 1st turn for me. You will probably end up losing the rest to morale loss unless the ethereal is there to babysit. But if you need bubble wrap for something 10 Kroot the the cheapest option an limit kill points.
Pathfinders are great so far this edition compared to others but don't go hog wild on buying a bunch until our actual codex hits. This way you can see what new things exist with sept options. Something may catch your eye then you'd be stuck with a lot of unused models. Case and point my pile of gun drones are finally being used again for something other than c-c bubble-wrap. Same with my Kroot... but they may be going back into the box. My pathfinders have become my new backfield holding units taking the place of my strike teams but can also pack a punch with r-r and i-r.
Strike Teams are like other units in the Tau Empire: they reach their optimal performance in context, not alone. Hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1 at STR 5 is very excellent, and at close range with three shots each doing that? Good times.
I submit to you that the Ethereal does more than babysit. It gives the Firewarriors a free markerlight if they DONT want to help nuke a target. And if you take Aun'Va, they are re-rolling morale on a 9, so even when they lose SIX Fire Warriors, the worst you can lose is 2 to morale, and that's assuming you even DO with the re-roll of morale he gives. Aun'Va is my fav.
The Kroot are to protect you with their Vanguard move. Taking a whole bunch may be a pointless exercize but in 50% of your games, you are GOING to need them to project a halo outward.
Pathfinders are good. I agree.
Ok point taken on the etherial not a babysitter . . ish. But at this point I will have to agree to disagree on the fire-line of strike teams as a useful option especially when it comes to competitive play.
Since some users are posting lists, I thought I'd throw a list down myself. It's loosely based on Jancoran's that he showed a little while ago, but consists only of models that I currently own. It's not as optimized as that one, but I'm thinking it might be okay-ish. Here it is:
Detachment 1: Brigade Detachment
HQ:
Ethereal: Hover Drone
Cadre Fireblade
Longstrike: Railgun, 2x Smart Missile System
Troops:
10 Kroot Carnivores
5 FW Strikers
5 FW Strikers
5 FW Strikers
5 FW Strikers
5 FW Breachers
Elites:
Firesight Marksman
3 Stealth Suits: 1x Fusion, 2x Burst Cannon, ML + Target Lock on Shas'vre, Target Locks on others
Ghostkeel Battlesuit: Fusion Collider, 2x Fusion Blaster, Target Lock, Velocity Tracker
Fast Attack:
10 Pathfinders: 3x Rail Rifle
4 Marker Drones
4 Marker Drones
Heavy Support:
TX7 Hammerhead: Railgun, 2x Burst Cannon
XV88 Broadside: Heavy Rail Rifle, 2x SMS, Drone Controller
3 Sniper Drones
Detachment 2: Super-heavy Auxiliary
Stormsurge: Pulse Blastcannon, 2x Burst Cannon, ATS, Shield Generator, Velocity Tracker
Total 1999 points
I don't know if I have enough cheap chaff to bubble wrap with. Not to mention enough markerlights. I think I do have enough heavy firepower to make mechanized lists sweat a little, though, and 12 Command Points will help mitigate unlucky die rolls (like 1's for railgun damage). I have another list like this that drops the Stormsurge in favor of some Crisis suits and a Commander, plus more of various types of drones. I'm not convinced that it's better, though. Thoughts?
edit: Oh, and about the Breachers: they are there because I don't have more Strikers.
i just played a game with a friend. We are both new players.
I play Daemons, he plays Tau. While playing, a few questions concerning his Tau force occured.
1. May units be set up on a Tidewall Shieldline (Deployment)? No. It is a fortification with a transport capacity. See the embarked models rules.
BrB page 183
7-Zark-7
Thank you very much!
I am going to have to disagree with the ruling on being able to deploy troop in the fortification. At minimum all of the T'au fortifications also have the key word transport. So YES a person can deploy the fortification and them put troops in them.
We are saying the same thing. The models are transported in the Shieldline, not physically placed on the Shieldline. Hence my reference to the Embarked rules. I interpreted the wording of his question when placed in context with his other questions to ask if the player could physically place the models on the Shieldline at deployment. Specifically the questions regarding Close Combat and the Missile Turret elude to models being physically on Shieldline at that point, otherwise they could not be charged, or the turret deployed. I figured giving them the page number thinking they would read the whole section was sufficient without having to tell them to read the 3rd paragraph.
i just played a game with a friend. We are both new players.
I play Daemons, he plays Tau. While playing, a few questions concerning his Tau force occured.
1. May units be set up on a Tidewall Shieldline (Deployment)? No. It is a fortification with a transport capacity. See the embarked models rules.
BrB page 183
7-Zark-7
Thank you very much!
I am going to have to disagree with the ruling on being able to deploy troop in the fortification. At minimum all of the T'au fortifications also have the key word transport. So YES a person can deploy the fortification and them put troops in them.
We are saying the same thing. The models are transported in the Shieldline, not physically placed on the Shieldline. Hence my reference to the Embarked rules. I interpreted the wording of his question when placed in context with his other questions to ask if the player could physically place the models on the Shieldline at deployment. Specifically the questions regarding Close Combat and the Missile Turret elude to models being physically on Shieldline at that point, otherwise they could not be charged, or the turret deployed. I figured giving them the page number thinking they would read the whole section was sufficient without having to tell them to read the 3rd paragraph.
7-Zark-7
From that perspective then yes there is no setting up of guys on the fortifications because they are embarked on it. But this is one of those times where the thing doing the transporting can actually hold the models so I wouldn't complain if they wanted to set their dudes up on it.
Remember when the Orc's had an unlimited transport capacity as long as they fit on the vehicle?
Remember when the Orc's had an unlimited transport capacity as long as they fit on the vehicle?
HA! OMG Yes! I totally forgot about the Battlewagon. That made for some interesting models, ship masts and pirate flags.
Fifteen Orks on a dead man’s hulk,
Lookin’ down the barrel of a gun,
Gruntin’ to each other
through big, sharp teeth,
Sayin’ “This one’ll give us some fun”
Fourteen Orks on a humie’s ship,
Killin’ anything that isn’t green,
Gruntin’ to each other
through big, sharp teeth,
Sayin’ “Times be getting’ lean”
Thirteen Orks with the Captain’s chest,
Hopin’ to quench their greedy thirst,
Gruntin’ to each other
through big, sharp teeth
Sayin’ “I was da wun dat saw it first”
One lone Ork left to steal the loot,
Wishin’ it hadn’t turned out so,
Gruntin’ to itself
through big, sharp teeth
Sayin’ “I shoulda let the pilot go"
So just picked up a Tau lot for dirt cheap with the following units:
5 Pirahna (3 FB, 2 BC)
1 Sniper Drone team (3x Sniper Drones and 1x Controller)
3 Krootox
6 Vespid
6 Kroot Hounds
Just wondering how best to use my new toys, especially the Pirahnas. What are the optimal loadouts on those guys?
Retrogamer0001 wrote: So just picked up a Tau lot for dirt cheap with the following units:
5 Pirahna (3 FB, 2 BC)
1 Sniper Drone team (3x Sniper Drones and 1x Controller)
3 Krootox
6 Vespid
6 Kroot Hounds
Just wondering how best to use my new toys, especially the Pirahnas. What are the optimal loadouts on those guys?
Got to be honest that's a good pickup.. The Krootox are basically walking missile pods.
I would run the pirhanas as individual units as not as a team. They don't set to split apart and if you ever lost one an unlucky moral role means that you loose another. I haven't used my piranhas yet but I was planning on running them with fusion's because everyone else in the T'au have the burst cannon covered. Being able to scoot a super long distance over the enemy and potentially sniping a character at close range or even picking off their transports.
I personally don't run a lot of Kroot but I hear good things.
Death Guard - Middle September
Admech - Early October
Tau - Early October Tyanids - Middle November
Blood Angels - Middle November
Necrons - Middle December
Thousand Sons - Middle December
If this is accurate or even close I will be excited. I'll be so happy to ditch the index. New Dex, new tactics! I heard it's looking like October 7th. We will see though.
You must be looking at something new compared to everyone else, because every other rumor source has been pretty clear about no Xenos this year, period.
Cephalobeard wrote: You must be looking at something new compared to everyone else, because every other rumor source has been pretty clear about no Xenos this year, period.
Yeah, I've seen that a lot too. BA & Nids make sense with Devastation of Baal. Business-wise it also makes sense. Not really a good idea to completely alienate (PUN!) all the Xenos players out there over the holidays. That would be a lot of gifts not purchased. Tau are one of the more popular factions, probably the most popular Xenos faction. Not having their rules up to date with all the imperial stuff for 6 or 8 months will drive off a portion of the existing player base. This hobby is like many others. If people set their collections to the side and start playing with other toys, be they games or otherwise, the time apart from them lessens the devotion and weakens spending power of the player as a customer. I personally have not purchased any new models since 8th launched and nor will I until I see a codex. I have no desire to buy a bunch of Commander models because that is the meta today, when that meta will vanish as soon as the dex drops.
TL;DR
Yup, but it makes some sense based on the releases and time of year (holidays).
Automatically Appended Next Post: It wouldn't surprise me if Necrons and Tau swapped release months, Necrons with AdMech in October and Tau in December.
Death Guard - Middle September
Admech - Early October
Tau - Early October Tyanids - Middle November
Blood Angels - Middle November
Necrons - Middle December
Thousand Sons - Middle December
If this is accurate or even close I will be excited. I'll be so happy to ditch the index. New Dex, new tactics! I heard it's looking like October 7th. We will see though.
7-Zark-7
This is certainly not accurate; Death Guard is about to be released and AdMech will follow it. And, as the focus in this edition is Imperium vs Chaos, I guess we won't see Xenos before 2018
Death Guard - Middle September
Admech - Early October
Tau - Early October Tyanids - Middle November
Blood Angels - Middle November
Necrons - Middle December
Thousand Sons - Middle December
If this is accurate or even close I will be excited. I'll be so happy to ditch the index. New Dex, new tactics! I heard it's looking like October 7th. We will see though.
7-Zark-7
This is certainly not accurate; Death Guard is about to be released and AdMech will follow it. And, as the focus in this edition is Imperium vs Chaos, I guess we won't see Xenos before 2018
Pre-orders for first DG releases, Morty and Codex are 9th of September, release is 16th. Ad mech codex has same dates if memory serves. So it's partly right at least.
I don't expect xenos love until next year though, but there's hope.
EDIT: I lied. Ad mech pre-orders are up on 16th and available on 23rd.
Pre-orders for first DG releases, Morty and Codex are 9th of September, release is 16th. Ad mech codex has same dates if memory serves. So it's partly right at least.
I don't expect xenos love until next year though, but there's hope.
EDIT: I lied. Ad mech pre-orders are up on 16th and available on 23rd.
That sorta meshes with the info I have. My info was wrong for GK & SM by a week, said 19th but was released on 12th, so take it for what it's worth. If it is just a week off then: DG Sep 9/16, AM & Tau Sep 23 / Oct 1, Nids & BA Oct 28 / Nov 4 and finally Necrons & TS Nov 25 / Dec 2. All rumours, so...
I'd love to see a new race added to the fold. I think that GW has a golden opportunity to kill three birds with one stone, but that would not involve a new race, just updating the Vespid. First they'll get rid of an old Finecast mold (that no one wants). Second, now that Stingwings are playable, they'll be selling quite a few right off the rip. Third, they can make it a dual kit and add a new unit at the same time, which will sell even more if people want to build both units. Personally, I'd rather see telekinetic, flying, pancake bears, but I don't think the Nicassar are happening.
They know almost no Tau wants Gue'vesa right now. We want xenos auxiliaries first. Big demand for Demiurg and Kroot these days. It would be a colossal mess up of huge proportions if they repacked IG sprues for the launch. Feels very cheap using the IG sprue's for so many sub-armies with repacks. Especially for a big sub army style release Tau players have been waiting on for 3 years when it finally comes out (give or take).
At some point in the future I would like to see a small release of Gue'vesa. However I want Tau releases to alternate from now on. One update Tau next auxiliaries ect.
Is there even a reason to use the Pulse Driver Cannon on the stormsurge anymore? Yeah it has range, but its only D3 shots at S10 -3AP D6 damage (D6 against 10+ models...like thats useful) and it costs almost TWICE the Pulse Blastcannon!
Really feel like that weapon got hit with the nerfbat hard. Even at 30" the Blastcannon with ATCs is still pretty decent and is clearly the winner up close and personal.
That gun profile on something that didnt take 1/4 of the list would be awesome. At around 500pts? yeah right
Not really. It's one of many options on our book that just doesn't make sense.
On a related note, I'm more or less putting my army on hold until the codex. Fielding flyrants - I mean Commanders - isn't all that interesting to me, and while I've messed around a fair bit with our other decent-ish units, I'd rather see what we're working with long-term before putting much more mental effort into the army. Hopefully we get a little more internal and external balance in October. If it's commander and drone spam for the foreseeable future, so be it, but I'm hopeful we get a bit more variety opened up.
Well, for one I'd love to see Gue'vesa. It's way easier for GW to create Gue'vesa sprues than completely new races (which would need very different rules as well).
On the other hand, this is what Lady Atia said:
"Let's say so much - you will be getting some new tau stuff that's not directly part of the t'au empire "
I'd prefer a new sub race as well or even more variety off an existing sprue. Technically there is a third sub race in the T'au codex that we have sever seen.
Vector Strike wrote: Well, for one I'd love to see Gue'vesa. It's way easier for GW to create Gue'vesa sprues than completely new races (which would need very different rules as well).
On the other hand, this is what Lady Atia said:
"Let's say so much - you will be getting some new tau stuff that's not directly part of the t'au empire "
My call would be 4th sphere or Farsight.
I think dakkadakka is the only significant Tau fanbase I've seen them voicing Gue'vesa requests in. Everywhere else it's almost a tie between Kroot and Demiurg with the rare shout out to Gue'vesa. Given the boards IG bias I guess it's not surprising.
That aside I can almost guarantee you it won't be 4th sphere. Tau are not space marines and don't get updated frequently enough for sub-tau to get their own model range like FSE (sadly). If even the FSE which has been around for ages doesn't get anything what makes you think the 4th would? If they did it would mean the huge 6 model update would not be usable by 90% of Tau armies and vice-versa with most of the existing line (I'm assuming for plot reasons). It's simply not sustainable.
My bet is the 4th has two purposes. 1 to justify Tau fighting stuff around the galaxy. 2. To introduce dark tau or chaos tau at a later point.
For real life logistical reasons it's simply infeasible that it's a 4th sphere expansion. Or if there is a 4th sphere release it will be its own thing separate from regular Empire releases. Even if it was specifically 4th sphere expansion I wouldn't consider that part of the Tau Empire as they have zero way to even contact the regular Tau Empire at this point and would best be thought of as an entirely new faction with its own goals. I also really doubt it's Farsight either. If the FSE gets models at some point then sure maybe it's plausible, but your theory is hinging on something that has no basis in anything.
On the other hand GW has clearly been listening to what 40k players want and Tau players have been yelling for auxiliaries for ages and ages. Just trying to not get your hopes up and dashed into the walls is all.
I'm a little shocked that (probably) GW is finally adding auxiliaries to Tau and of all the flavors of icecream you ask for vanilla despite having an entire year of Imperium releases now and you want them released in "the year of the xenos". Okay then I think it flew over your head a little but to each their own.
I'd be reasonably surprised if the extras weren't a fleshing out of the existing non-Tau options we have. Plastic hounds, Vespids, and Krootoxen would be totally awesome. I could also see the return of Gnarlocs and other peripheral Krootiness. I don't expect many (or any) actual new units, much less a new spin-off race. Maybe rules for Imperial Auxiliaries or at least some way of working in Imperium allies could be cool. Again, any tweaks that make our book more balanced and competitive against the field are more than welcome.
MilkmanAl wrote: I'd be reasonably surprised if the extras weren't a fleshing out of the existing non-Tau options we have. Plastic hounds, Vespids, and Krootoxen would be totally awesome. I could also see the return of Gnarlocs and other peripheral Krootiness. I don't expect many (or any) actual new units, much less a new spin-off race. Maybe rules for Imperial Auxiliaries or at least some way of working in Imperium allies could be cool. Again, any tweaks that make our book more balanced and competitive against the field are more than welcome.
With the release of the Fallen, Genestealer Cults, and other small auxiliary forces, fleshing out the Kroot is something that is definitely feasible. Right now we have Kroot Carnivores, Kroot Hounds, the Kroot Ox, and the Shaper. There is still a lot of potential and mostly-easy design space to create an entire Kroot army, and people have been crying for it for years. Hell, release the Kroot primarch too - the Krootarch!
So I had a chance to play a ton of 2000 point ITC games last weekend. I went into these games with a theory that enough command points could offset some of the Tau Army short comings. As such, I ran Brigade lists so I could start with 12 command points. Some slots I simply threw in the cheapest choices to fulfill requirements, just to see a lot of command points at work. Here was my main list:
HQ-
Commander 4 x Fusion 2 X Drones
Commander 4 x Fusion 2 X Drones
Commander 4 x Fusion 2 X Drones
Troops -
Kroot X 10
Kroot X 10
Kroot X 11
Strike Team x 10 including Shas
Strike Team x 12 including Shas
Strike Team x 5 including Shas
Elite -
Firesight Marksman
Firesight Marksman
Krootox Rider
Fast-
Pathfinders X 4 including Shas w/ Pulse Accelerator Drone
Vespid Stingwings X 5 including Strain Leader
Y'vahra w/ ATS and TL
Heavy-
Sniper Drones X 3
Sniper Drones X 3
Hammerhead with Railgun and drones
Flyer-
Sunshark Bomber
1996 points
My main opponent was Ynnari (multiple Hemlocks and Wraithguard in serpents) in Vanguard and Flyer detachments.
The games went very well for the Tau and here are some of my observations:
- 12 Command Points was very good as it allowed me to liberally use them to auto pass morale and take re-rolls pretty much whenever I thought I needed to. However, 12 command points required me to take units that did not do much work. I think maybe 8 Command Points may work too and maybe take a few more work horse units.
- Kroot...Oh my god... become amazing when you can liberally spend 2 command points to auto pass morale tests. When playing ITC missions, some Maelstrom points are for killing units so your opponent is going to look on the board and see a juicy unit of kroot ripe for the picking. Unless they can kill every single Kroot in that unit, you can deny them that point, or you can stay on an objective if the kroot are assaulted. Auto pass morale for Kroot is so good. Of course this is assuming you have a stockpile of command points like I did. If seemed that these auto pass morale happened at least twice a game where it really made a difference.
- Bubble wrapping - The difference between losing some of your good units on turn 1 if you go 2nd. I bubble wrapped with the Kroot and firewarriors to prevent the Hemlocks from invading my area and deleting the Yvhara/Sunshark/Hammerhead right off the bat. Guys this really works but you do need some bodies. I figured that I needed to deny the Hemlocks their 16" firing range and deny them space to hop over into my back field. I had more than enough chaff units to do this but I think a minimum of 30 or so troops bodies should get you by.
Vespid - They aren't bad but didnt do much work because wraithgaurd are T5. Tough to make a good conclusion of them based on that, since most armies arn'te full of T5 models and up. In one game they dropped down and nearly wiped a 10 man Warp Spider squad. But that was about it.
Krootox Rider - Didn't do much work but managed to survive quite a few games.Cheap and made the Brigade possible.
Hammerhead - This is where I spent a lot of my rerolls for my shooting phases. The re-rolls make i's single shot reliable but, as many have commented before, the damage is not that great. I am having hard time putting this back into a list.
Firesight Marksman - They're ok for the points. They are the type of cheap unit you'll want to use if you need to fill elite slots for detachment requirements. They buff Sniper drones and have a markerlight with better BS. Their markerlights never made that much of a difference but landing a markerlight for reroll 1s was nice. Just don't go in with high expectations with these guys and you'll be fine.
Sniper Drones - Tough call on these guys as their range of their guns are nice but trying to actually kill characters seemed to be a constant disappointment. Again, they are good unit to fill slots for a Brigade. It is probably better to think of them as a more expensive firewarrior with a longer range gun.
Pathfinders - They're good and cheap and usually guarantee a markerlight to get re-rolls of 1s. I typically applied markerlights for my firewarriors and sniper drones. I added the pulse accelerator drone which makes firewarriors much better. The pulse accelerator will be an auto take if I end up taking at least two large squads of firewarriors.
Firewarriors - They're ok for now. The pulse accelerator drone makes them better as their range will go to 36" However I am finding myself wanting to pay more points for a firewarrior that has some AP -. AP -1 would be nice. You work hard to get these little guys to hit something only to see the few shots that made wounds, easily saved. So with all of those firewarriors in my list, I would typically on get 1 or 2 unsaved wounds per shooting phase. When my opponent switched to jetbikes with T4, the wounds from firewarrriors went up but still nothing exciting. If you just wanted to hold objectives in the backfield, Kroot can do it for cheaper and you aren't going to notice a large difference in unsaved wounds compared to firewarriors.
Y'Vahra - It was nerfed in many ways, but I still managed to get it to do work. I didn't make my points back every game but it will make for a bloodbath. I spent many of command point rerolls on it's 4++ save, which was nice against the strength 10 flamers that wraithgaurd have. It lost the 24" jump move and mini torrent which was the awesome sauce in 7th. Also, it's not fun to Nova charge, lose on wound, and roll a 5 on a 3D6 flamer shots. Booooo. Its not an auto take but can still be a worthy choice.
Sunshark Bomber - Hard to judge this unit based off of my opponent. It is really for thinning out horde armies and my opponent was running a very low model count list. Be as it may, it deletes infantry with ease but you may find it underwhelming if there isn't enough infantry on the table to fly over every turn. I had that problem where I had to spend a turn or two just turn it around for another bombing run. Its saving grace is its cheap point value. I think I will keep it in all most of my lists because I can see the value of it against troop heavy armies.
Commanders - These guys will usually make up for the mediocrity of many of the other units in our army. No complaints with these guys other than feeling a little weird that our HQ choices are doing the majority of the work for our army. I may buy another one but I don't think I would go more than 4 as I am getting a feeling that HQ's, in general, may be getting nerfed in the future. Amazing performance, it puts the hurt on units pretty quick. I havent had the chance to play a horde army yet with my Tau but I can imagine that dropping down with 4 X Fusions wont feel as amazing if my opponent bubble wraps to keep my fusion shots out of range of their power units.We'll see. I may switch to 4 X missiles on the 4th Commander and have him lead maybe a unit of missile crisis suits.
In terms of what I was usually spending the Command points on:
- Auto Pass Morale on Kroot
- Re-roll on saves for Y'Vahra
- Re-roll to hit for the Hammerhead
- Re-roll on the 3D6 or the 3D3 weapons shots for Y'vahra
I enjoyed playing the Tau within the ITC format. The biggest take away from playing Tau in 8th vs older editions, that I found, is that they currently feel a little lopsided. Our army lists are relying on a very small handful of units to do most of the work for us - read Commanders. Markerlights are a neat change, with the reroll 1s with 1 marker, but I think that the progressive increase in ballistic skill from additional marker lights was a major backbone to the army that is currently missing. Seeker missiles take too much work for too little pay off. They could fix seeker missiles if they made them more than one use only. I was genuinely surprised by my Kroot - and so was my opponent. They aren't that easy to wipe off the table and auto passing morale forces an opponent to overkill a 60 point unit to ensure it dies completely. I also play Chaos Marines and will attempt the same auto pass morale strategy with a Brigade with cultists and see how it goes. Command Points can make all the difference, if you have enough. I may not have needed to go Brigade but I think starting the game with 8 Command Points will get you a couple of auto morale passes ( 2 CPs each) and 4 re-rolls while leaving room for a better unit or two.
Do you guys think a pair of riptides, Running HBC +Plasma +Ats+TL would work as distraction carnifexs? It's obviously overpriced, but running them almost as cheap as possible (just letting them move and shoot, and -1 ap for HBC to be more threatening) and nova charging makes them non-ignorable? they have enough durability to survive the average charge, fly out and blast the unit in the face.
MilkmanAl wrote: I'd be reasonably surprised if the extras weren't a fleshing out of the existing non-Tau options we have. Plastic hounds, Vespids, and Krootoxen would be totally awesome. I could also see the return of Gnarlocs and other peripheral Krootiness. I don't expect many (or any) actual new units, much less a new spin-off race. Maybe rules for Imperial Auxiliaries or at least some way of working in Imperium allies could be cool. Again, any tweaks that make our book more balanced and competitive against the field are more than welcome.
Except for the fact that LAdy Atia was reply to someone asking if the new Tau release would be a min-army style release AoS style sub-faction and she basically said what she did. So she is heavily implying whatever race or release we see will be themed. So no mixed race auxiliary release. I personally think this is for the best anyways as it allows for fleshing out of a single race.
MilkmanAl wrote: I'd be reasonably surprised if the extras weren't a fleshing out of the existing non-Tau options we have. Plastic hounds, Vespids, and Krootoxen would be totally awesome. I could also see the return of Gnarlocs and other peripheral Krootiness. I don't expect many (or any) actual new units, much less a new spin-off race. Maybe rules for Imperial Auxiliaries or at least some way of working in Imperium allies could be cool. Again, any tweaks that make our book more balanced and competitive against the field are more than welcome.
With the release of the Fallen, Genestealer Cults, and other small auxiliary forces, fleshing out the Kroot is something that is definitely feasible. Right now we have Kroot Carnivores, Kroot Hounds, the Kroot Ox, and the Shaper. There is still a lot of potential and mostly-easy design space to create an entire Kroot army, and people have been crying for it for years. Hell, release the Kroot primarch too - the Krootarch!
I've never wanted anything more than a Kroot Primarch in my life.
Kroot need an HQ option and a heavy support. And, you know ... plastic kits.
I wonder if you couldn't manage to get three plastic KrootOx in one box (akin to Tyranid Warriors or Ogryn) and stick a secondary option in there, like some kind of melee-monster Krrotox. Give 'em talon glove hands instead of normal hands, leave off the rider, and let 'em do what comes naturally. Failing that, a rider with a Kroot rifle, mainly there to tell it what to go mulch but who fires off a shot now and then while it's leaping around, punching stuff.
Plastic Kroot hounds are also badly needed. not sure if it'd be better to put 4 in a box of 10 Kroot carnivores or to make them a box of their own. (I think that they redid the Kroot bnox some time ago, so aren't likely to do it again, but, who knows?)
MilkmanAl wrote: I'd be reasonably surprised if the extras weren't a fleshing out of the existing non-Tau options we have. Plastic hounds, Vespids, and Krootoxen would be totally awesome. I could also see the return of Gnarlocs and other peripheral Krootiness. I don't expect many (or any) actual new units, much less a new spin-off race. Maybe rules for Imperial Auxiliaries or at least some way of working in Imperium allies could be cool. Again, any tweaks that make our book more balanced and competitive against the field are more than welcome.
Except for the fact that LAdy Atia was reply to someone asking if the new Tau release would be a min-army style release AoS style sub-faction and she basically said what she did. So she is heavily implying whatever race or release we see will be themed. So no mixed race auxiliary release. I personally think this is for the best anyways as it allows for fleshing out of a single race.
On Fire Warriors, they're significantly better with a Fireblade. A min squad of FWs for 40 points is getting 15 S5 shots within 15". 18" with the pulse accelerator. Plus they bring a BS 2+ Markerlight
Fireblades also buff gun drones because they don't specify Infantry, just <Sept> units with the valid pulse weapons. A Gun Drone buffed by a Fireblade is getting 6 shots at 9", for an 8 point model.
With a BS 2 markerlight hit allowing rerolls of 1 to hit I had 15 Fire Warriors, a Fireblade, and like 5 gun drones do about 8 unsaved wounds to Skarbrand the other day. Then a fusion commander finished him off. Fire Warriors aren't game winners, but with a Fireblade you can pull about 70+ shots for around 200 points.
Fireblade is 45 pts I think
15 Fire warriors is 120
5 Gun Drones is 40
205 points for up to 75 pulse shots and a BS 2 Markerlight.
They don't win games by themselves but they provide a lot of cheap supporting fire for your hard hitters with the right buffs.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Kroot design offers up endless possibilities, it's a shame GW haven't taken advantage of it yet.
- Giant bird/lizard riders
- Big, hulking swamp beasts akin to dreadnoughts and Knights
- Different strains of Kroot, IE. warrior, flyer, tunneler, psyker bioforms.
Almost a cross between Orks and Tyranids where technology and adaptability are concerned.
I love Kroot, but they've gotten progressively worse and worse with every edition of the game. I miss Kroot that ruled the forests and wanted to eat the slain on the spot (not to mention Kroot rifles giving an extra attack).
I love Kroot, but they've gotten progressively worse and worse with every edition of the game. I miss Kroot that ruled the forests and wanted to eat the slain on the spot (not to mention Kroot rifles giving an extra attack).
I love Kroot, but they've gotten progressively worse and worse with every edition of the game. I miss Kroot that ruled the forests and wanted to eat the slain on the spot (not to mention Kroot rifles giving an extra attack).
Don't forget the lost point of strength
I haven't, though the Kroot Rifle sort of gives it back. I'd rather they had native S4, though. I'm interested into people's uses for Kroot as they stand. Saving CP for morale checks is pretty necessary, because Kroot die so easy with S3 6+ armor. Uses I can think of:
1: Turn 1 Rapid Fire: 7" scout move, 7" move means they're 10" from the enemy line (assuming a 24" gap at deployment). And maybe a charge if you're lucky.
2: Bubble Wrapping to prevent deep strike. It's cheap (60 points for 10 Kroot), but the Kroot will vanish by the end of Turn 1.
3: Counter Assault: This works against big things with low numbers of powerful attacks, like monstrous creatures or vehicles. Throw Kroot into the meat grinder. Who cares if a couple die every turn as long as it pins the nasty down for a few turns. However, Kroot hounds are better for this, though Kroot hounds are far less versatile.
I love Kroot, but they've gotten progressively worse and worse with every edition of the game. I miss Kroot that ruled the forests and wanted to eat the slain on the spot (not to mention Kroot rifles giving an extra attack).
Don't forget the lost point of strength
I haven't, though the Kroot Rifle sort of gives it back. I'd rather they had native S4, though. I'm interested into people's uses for Kroot as they stand. Saving CP for morale checks is pretty necessary, because Kroot die so easy with S3 6+ armor. Uses I can think of:
1: Turn 1 Rapid Fire: 7" scout move, 7" move means they're 10" from the enemy line (assuming a 24" gap at deployment). And maybe a charge if you're lucky.
2: Bubble Wrapping to prevent deep strike. It's cheap (60 points for 10 Kroot), but the Kroot will vanish by the end of Turn 1.
3: Counter Assault: This works against big things with low numbers of powerful attacks, like monstrous creatures or vehicles. Throw Kroot into the meat grinder. Who cares if a couple die every turn as long as it pins the nasty down for a few turns. However, Kroot hounds are better for this, though Kroot hounds are far less versatile.
Cheap objective holders, deep strike-prevention, and meat grinder tactics against the big boys.
That's true, 20 kroot in melee with a dreadnought will probably just sit there all game. He could fall back and have something else shoot it but you still stalled it a turn and he's having to dedicate some shooting at the kroot that could have been going at crisis suits.
I was pretty down on crisis suits but I think I have found a pretty good use for them. A 3 man with 8x plasma guns and 1 drone controller and 6 gun drones is pretty brutal deep strike firepower. It's only 267 points and will straight up kill a 10 man MEQ unit in a single turn - without marker lights.
Which i dont get, but not like im ever fielding my ta'unar again anyway.
1200pts for a NERFED ta'unar? it was too durable at 600pts but it was definitely not overpowered in offense. Stormsurge routinely did more damage than the Ta'unar did.
Vineheart01 wrote: Which i dont get, but not like im ever fielding my ta'unar again anyway.
1200pts for a NERFED ta'unar? it was too durable at 600pts but it was definitely not overpowered in offense. Stormsurge routinely did more damage than the Ta'unar did.
actually rather mad i have that thing now.
It's still a very cool model, definitely a center-piece to any Tau army. There's always Ebay if you can't stand looking at it though.
Oh its an awesome model no doubt about that. I'm against selling models though because every time i've done that ive wanted to shoot myself a few months later.
Plus, its purple lol. Nobody is going to buy a purple ta'unar at even half the retail price. If i was going to sell it, that is
They should make seeker missiles 1D3 damage and D-missiles like 3+1D3 damage. Might be too powerful though. Or they could just make Stormsurge T8. Heck, even Titanic Feet would be an improvement.
I find the Taunar disgustingly ugly and unoriginal so... I'm saved from having to consider buying it anyways. Gotta get myself a new Tigershark soon though!
Speaking of which, has anyone given any thought to the Tigershark strike fighter version? It might be nice to dump 14 drones somewhere behind your opponent's army or maybe next to a bunch of deep-struck Commanders on turn 2. It doesn't have particularly great firepower for the points, but a lightning-fast, exceptionally tough transport is pretty cool.
I have but the AX-1-0 varaint is better for the price. Drones being dropped off behind enemy lines aren't very useful. You want them to be protecting and shooting as much as possible. Sure it has a niche use of possibly getting line breaker or maybe the rare objective but it's a lot of points investment just for that.
It pains me to say since the railguns on the Bomber look better and not so oversized.
Indeed. If I were to use it, I'd probably support other stuff that's dropping in since 2 drones per Commander isn't exactly a wealth of protection. It's tough to ignore the AX-1-0's "delete large unit" ability, though, considering it's not all that much more expensive.
Yeah it's easily one of if not the most points efficient Titan Hunters in the game right now. A year or two down the line when 8th has settled in and I'm itching for a big project during a dry spell of release I'll probably grab one. Right now GW is on too much of a hot streak.
I'm gonna get one just to use in FW friendly tournaments, and solely because I hate FW stuff and I don't want to have to deal with crazy vehicules, titants, and knights. The Tigershark is the ultimate anti FW, FW unit.
Vineheart01 wrote:Which i dont get, but not like im ever fielding my ta'unar again anyway.
1200pts for a NERFED ta'unar? it was too durable at 600pts but it was definitely not overpowered in offense. Stormsurge routinely did more damage than the Ta'unar did.
actually rather mad i have that thing now.
Well, all big guys got a whooping price increase, so I don't think 1200 is that bad for it... it's just not taht killy for such price tag (an Eldar Revenant Titan costs the same and is way killier)
MilkmanAl wrote:Speaking of which, has anyone given any thought to the Tigershark strike fighter version? It might be nice to dump 14 drones somewhere behind your opponent's army or maybe next to a bunch of deep-struck Commanders on turn 2. It doesn't have particularly great firepower for the points, but a lightning-fast, exceptionally tough transport is pretty cool.
If you exchange the drone port for skyspear missile racks, you'll get quite the all-around airplane! It's like a super-sized Barracuda. With HBC and SMR, you can dish out lots of S6 pain!
I think FW is one of the few reasons Tau have competitive options outside of "spam nine Commanders and call our faction completely fine and balanced", namely in the Y'Vahra and possibly Tiger Shark. I know there's lots of butthurt over the Y'Vahra and people like to cry about it, but at 400 points, it's quite well balanced for how long it can survive.
cmspano wrote: On Fire Warriors, they're significantly better with a Fireblade. A min squad of FWs for 40 points is getting 15 S5 shots within 15". 18" with the pulse accelerator. Plus they bring a BS 2+ Markerlight
Fireblades also buff gun drones because they don't specify Infantry, just <Sept> units with the valid pulse weapons. A Gun Drone buffed by a Fireblade is getting 6 shots at 9", for an 8 point model.
With a BS 2 markerlight hit allowing rerolls of 1 to hit I had 15 Fire Warriors, a Fireblade, and like 5 gun drones do about 8 unsaved wounds to Skarbrand the other day. Then a fusion commander finished him off. Fire Warriors aren't game winners, but with a Fireblade you can pull about 70+ shots for around 200 points.
Fireblade is 45 pts I think
15 Fire warriors is 120
5 Gun Drones is 40
205 points for up to 75 pulse shots and a BS 2 Markerlight.
They don't win games by themselves but they provide a lot of cheap supporting fire for your hard hitters with the right buffs.
Pretty sure the Drones only get 5 shots when buffed by Fireblade.
It's based on not providing any juicy targets, and the fact that S5 basic weapons don't need heavy backup. The FW and pathfinders wrap the foot ethereal and cadre, all get buffed. Haven't had a game yet where that firebase wasn't feasible. The stealths and disc Ethereal provide mobile firepower with the drones. Vespids can wrap the commanders. Kroot and Hounds slow advances, claim objectives. Vespids and disc Ethereals may be a luxury, but the rest of the list is pretty tight. Haven't had to do a pure kill points battle yet. They are pretty stupid and I try to avoid them, but wiping the table is a realistic option with this list.
Hi I'm new to tau and Friends of mine are trying to get me into 40k, not sure if i want to as i may not have the full dedication of time for it. However, looking at some of the models, I love some of em even on just a collecting and hobby standpoint (i like mecha). So given that there are some units that i like, would a basic 1000pt army work with this composition?
+++ tau (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [49 PL, 1000pts] +++
Vehicle/super heavy eater with light protection that can homing beacon in.
+ Elites [] +
XV104 Riptide Battlesuit []: 2x Smart missile system [], Advanced targeting system [], Heavy burst cannon [], Target lock []
Love the model and tried to keep the points down (lol). Serves as my anti infantry (light to heavy), nova charging whenever needed. Will be protected by drones.
Markerlight support (i think i really only want the 1st markerlight), boots on the ground, with light vehicle/heavy inf killing ability.
Tactical Drones []: 4x MV1 Gun Drone []
XV104 bodyguards
I understand some might cry cheese, but tbh from what ive been reading, im actually gimping myself by including the riptide and the keel in one list. Im putting em both because theyre both models that i love (HUEG MECH), and the others based on what I can find that works pretty well. Again, this is a list that is collecting first, and then casual gaming with my buddies second.
True, but lots of people in this thread don't venture that way all that often. You're also less likely to get the volume of experienced Tau players looking over your lists in that forum.
I think the stormsurge sucks, compared to all other units available within the codex and within other codexes, after bearing in mind the internal synergies will boost the effectiveness of the stormsurge (and without).
So whilst I appreciate Jancoran you may disagree, the current iteration of the stormsurge makes it very lackluster.
It is very survivable. I am not sure if this equates to being cost-effectively survivable.
It has an array of weapons, most of which are standard weapons available to all (virtually all) models within the tau army and one big gun + 4 rockets. The array isn't a huge volume of shots (again, looking at other unit options within/without the codex).
The main gun is just lack luster, a combination of a lack of shots, damage (i.e. D6) and accuracy. I've looked again and oh my, it is disheartening.
The rockets are also poor, requiring an interesting level of support, otherwise you may hit with 1 rocket, but the impact is.. not enough. The damage of the destroyer missiles is lack luster, compared with other mortal wound causing units in the game.
I'm clocking 430pts - 480pts, it doesn't need to be cheaper but for the point is most certainly does not accomplish it's goal/benchmarks/hitting power/staying power/mobility (once again, compared to units within the index and without in other army options).
So a little bit more specific than, "I disagree with you".
Being specific helps you be clearer but not more correct.
we are talking about a subjective thing here, but bear in mind that when you have a weapn that doesnt even have to roll to wound, which can hit on 2's and which can re-roll 1's when properly supported, doing as many as 12 mortal wounds in one go, it makes the REST of the force efficient in that the REST of the force isnt forced to then manage such a tremendous amount of wounds as say...a Prophyrion brings, or a Magnus brings.
You're underselling the entire reason why the Stormsurge is necessary. You need to stop the "big bad thing" very quickly when you see it. It takes too many units worth of effort to do that without the Stormsurge. In the meantime the thing that otherwise would have been neutered is allowed to have one-two extra rounds of life to engage the Tau army...or worse... the rest of the Tau army has spent itself on just one target instead of giving it the option not to have to.
Points efficiency is a really fun thing to talk about. I get it with some units. With the Stormsurge, you aren't taking it because you can't get a Smart Missile System elsewhere. You're taking it because you can't get that kind of immense killing power in one place at one time. To produce the same results on most of its weapons, you can get it sheaper. But not the Shotgun+missile combo. That drops really big things, really really fast and frees the rest of the army to engage the targets they were designed to engage.
Its utility is critical. But then if you never play things that have 30 wounds, as you see when someone bringe the Fortress of Redemption or the Prophyrion etc... then maybe you'd have a point. If you never see two YVarha's sitting across from you that absolutely positively need to be dead RIGHT FRAKING NOW then sure. I get it. Otherwise, if you are anticipating these possibilities, as I am, then you definitely do not look down your nose at those Destroyer missiles and the shotgun.
I think it's a mistake to assume markerlights. Those are resources in a list that too many players just write off. It's true that some units gain more from multiple hits than others, but an apple to apple comparison requires assuming no markers, imo.
That's part of why fusion commanders are so ubiquitous, they kill what has to be killed without any support needed.
xmbk wrote: I think it's a mistake to assume markerlights. Those are resources in a list that too many players just write off. It's true that some units gain more from multiple hits than others, but an apple to apple comparison requires assuming no markers, imo.
That's part of why fusion commanders are so ubiquitous, they kill what has to be killed without any support needed.
Well, yes and no. You kind of have to assume marker lights on a list-wide basis, otherwise you're missing the boat. What's important is to have a really clear idea how many markers you have, how likely they are likely to last, and how many units you can realistically expect to light up in a given turn depending on how many hits you need for the necessary buff. Units that function well without markerlights are essential because you're never going to be able to light up every target in a a turn. More likely it'll be a small handful of key targets you want to focus on, and units like the commander allow you to engage other targets at full capacity.
So yeah, compare stats without markerlight buffs for sure, but they still need to be a part of the conversation, same as aura buffs. The Tau just have an extra layer of analysis compared to other armies, which we can get done in all the extra time we have not worrying about the psychic rules.
I'm going to take off my Captain Obvious hat now....
Not sure I agree that it's missing the boat to go without markerlights. They are just another tool. I think players sometimes analyze a unit without factoring in the hidden cost of the markerlights. It's all about opportunity cost. Fill your army with units that are effective without lights, and you have 10-15% more firepower.
xmbk wrote: Not sure I agree that it's missing the boat to go without markerlights. They are just another tool. I think players sometimes analyze a unit without factoring in the hidden cost of the markerlights. It's all about opportunity cost. Fill your army with units that are effective without lights, and you have 10-15% more firepower.
Sure, there are lists that get on just fine without, no question about that. Whether that amounts by itself to 10-15% more firepower is debatable, The effectiveness of marker lights is based almost entirely on how many guns will benefit. Smaller unit count suit based armies, who can replicate certain ML effects using suit systems, need them a lot less than an army heavy on gun drones and Tau infantry. How heavily you invest in MLs depends on your build, not on some a priori valuation of ML as a tool.
I'm not saying you're wrong, just that the variety of builds makes it a little more nuanced than your post above seems to suggest.
Gun drones and infantry don't need more than 1 ML, and the points could be replicated by simply buying more drones or FW. It's the big guns that benefit from saturating a target with lights, esp something like the Stormsurge missiles. Those need to make up at least 10-15% more points worth of hits, based on spending 100-150 points on ML in a 2k list.
The current table is underwhelming. The codex might make ML a better investment, but right now they are far from no-brainer, imo.
Jancoran wrote: Being specific helps you be clearer but not more correct.
we are talking about a subjective thing here, but bear in mind that when you have a weapn that doesnt even have to roll to wound, which can hit on 2's and which can re-roll 1's when properly supported, doing as many as 12 mortal wounds in one go, it makes the REST of the force efficient in that the REST of the force isnt forced to then manage such a tremendous amount of wounds as say...a Prophyrion brings, or a Magnus brings.
You're underselling the entire reason why the Stormsurge is necessary. You need to stop the "big bad thing" very quickly when you see it. It takes too many units worth of effort to do that without the Stormsurge. In the meantime the thing that otherwise would have been neutered is allowed to have one-two extra rounds of life to engage the Tau army...or worse... the rest of the Tau army has spent itself on just one target instead of giving it the option not to have to.
Points efficiency is a really fun thing to talk about. I get it with some units. With the Stormsurge, you aren't taking it because you can't get a Smart Missile System elsewhere. You're taking it because you can't get that kind of immense killing power in one place at one time. To produce the same results on most of its weapons, you can get it sheaper. But not the Shotgun+missile combo. That drops really big things, really really fast and frees the rest of the army to engage the targets they were designed to engage.
Its utility is critical. But then if you never play things that have 30 wounds, as you see when someone bringe the Fortress of Redemption or the Prophyrion etc... then maybe you'd have a point. If you never see two YVarha's sitting across from you that absolutely positively need to be dead RIGHT FRAKING NOW then sure. I get it. Otherwise, if you are anticipating these possibilities, as I am, then you definitely do not look down your nose at those Destroyer missiles and the shotgun.
Even if it's weapons were good - and for their cost they are not. SS has to move forward to get into range. So instead of plus 1 BS for standing still - it's -1 bs for moving. That makes you BS 5+. Or I guess - they can just walk into your range like idiots. I'd honestly take a ION riptide over the trash stormsurge.
Jancoran wrote: Being specific helps you be clearer but not more correct.
we are talking about a subjective thing here, but bear in mind that when you have a weapn that doesnt even have to roll to wound, which can hit on 2's and which can re-roll 1's when properly supported, doing as many as 12 mortal wounds in one go, it makes the REST of the force efficient in that the REST of the force isnt forced to then manage such a tremendous amount of wounds as say...a Prophyrion brings, or a Magnus brings.
You're underselling the entire reason why the Stormsurge is necessary. You need to stop the "big bad thing" very quickly when you see it. It takes too many units worth of effort to do that without the Stormsurge. In the meantime the thing that otherwise would have been neutered is allowed to have one-two extra rounds of life to engage the Tau army...or worse... the rest of the Tau army has spent itself on just one target instead of giving it the option not to have to.
Points efficiency is a really fun thing to talk about. I get it with some units. With the Stormsurge, you aren't taking it because you can't get a Smart Missile System elsewhere. You're taking it because you can't get that kind of immense killing power in one place at one time. To produce the same results on most of its weapons, you can get it sheaper. But not the Shotgun+missile combo. That drops really big things, really really fast and frees the rest of the army to engage the targets they were designed to engage.
Its utility is critical. But then if you never play things that have 30 wounds, as you see when someone bringe the Fortress of Redemption or the Prophyrion etc... then maybe you'd have a point. If you never see two YVarha's sitting across from you that absolutely positively need to be dead RIGHT FRAKING NOW then sure. I get it. Otherwise, if you are anticipating these possibilities, as I am, then you definitely do not look down your nose at those Destroyer missiles and the shotgun.
Even if it's weapons were good - and for their cost they are not. SS has to move forward to get into range. So instead of plus 1 BS for standing still - it's -1 bs for moving. That makes you BS 5+. Or I guess - they can just walk into your range like idiots. I'd honestly take a ION riptide over the trash stormsurge.
Ahem, you're forgetting the Walking Battleship rule that negates the -1 penalty for moving and shooting Heavy weapons. Also, the Stormsurge has pretty respectable range, especially with the Pulse Driver Cannon.
Jancoran wrote: Being specific helps you be clearer but not more correct.
we are talking about a subjective thing here, but bear in mind that when you have a weapn that doesnt even have to roll to wound, which can hit on 2's and which can re-roll 1's when properly supported, doing as many as 12 mortal wounds in one go, it makes the REST of the force efficient in that the REST of the force isnt forced to then manage such a tremendous amount of wounds as say...a Prophyrion brings, or a Magnus brings.
You're underselling the entire reason why the Stormsurge is necessary. You need to stop the "big bad thing" very quickly when you see it. It takes too many units worth of effort to do that without the Stormsurge. In the meantime the thing that otherwise would have been neutered is allowed to have one-two extra rounds of life to engage the Tau army...or worse... the rest of the Tau army has spent itself on just one target instead of giving it the option not to have to.
Points efficiency is a really fun thing to talk about. I get it with some units. With the Stormsurge, you aren't taking it because you can't get a Smart Missile System elsewhere. You're taking it because you can't get that kind of immense killing power in one place at one time. To produce the same results on most of its weapons, you can get it sheaper. But not the Shotgun+missile combo. That drops really big things, really really fast and frees the rest of the army to engage the targets they were designed to engage.
Its utility is critical. But then if you never play things that have 30 wounds, as you see when someone bringe the Fortress of Redemption or the Prophyrion etc... then maybe you'd have a point. If you never see two YVarha's sitting across from you that absolutely positively need to be dead RIGHT FRAKING NOW then sure. I get it. Otherwise, if you are anticipating these possibilities, as I am, then you definitely do not look down your nose at those Destroyer missiles and the shotgun.
Rockets; Don't get me wrong, with a little bit of support, they are become very accurate. However 4D3 mortal wounds does not equal 12 wounds, (yes it is as many as but let's be more clear and reasonable and talk about averages) so 6 wounds. 6 Mortal wounds is a thing but it is not impressive or impactful, given the cost of the platform. 35/36 chance* to hit is great (*lets assume we have the markerlights here; the cost/ability to counter/avoid/etc is a separate debate**) but the outcome of 4d6 mortal wounds is not great or even that good. I.e. what will it do? Nuke a smaller charater? Drop a vehicle down a level or two. Wipe a small infantry squad or light vehicle. Eh
My whole point is... the "big-bad-thing" (a very reasonable point, lots of armies will have singular threats, tougher units like knights etc)... it can get more effectively countered, more cheaply, by using units other-than a stormsurge.
In terms of other units being able to engage other things died in 8th edition where you can split fire.. most things. The amount of str5 firepower (yes it will likely be at -1AP due to ATS) is very simply 20-40 (average of 30) str5 shots. That is, base, 10-20 (average of 15) hits. 15 str 5 hits is not very impressive for a 430-480pt unit. 12 gun drones are 96pts and get 10 str5 hits (yes, I concede without the AP-1 and at lower ranges on a less resilient platform), so whilst I can see your point that you're lumping all of this fanastic firepower into one deathball... that firepower just isn't that good. What will 15 str5 hits accomplish? If the weapons got to fire twice or the Stormsurge had some form of over-charged support systems or something else like that, then the weapons that exist of the chasis could be amazing but currently it is very lack lustre (for the points). (Yes it can anchor and fire at +1 to hit, it's good, but the downsides are very severe)
The problem with the Stormsurge is that.. unlike in the previous edition, it's ability to look at things across the table and delete them.. it can't do that anymore. Lets aim our maxed out best-loadout Stormsurge and aim it at... not two Y'vahras but two.. Rhinos (or Razorbacks). How likely will it be to take them out?
**Now how easy is it for the razorback player to hide from either the marker lights or the stormsurge (just to highlight the need for synergy, which doesn't translate into killing power). I'm fairly sure the Stormsurge struggles? D3 shots wounding on 3's, D6 damage.... or 2 shots wounding on 2's with 6 damage. (maybe 4 shots wounding on 3's.. with 3 damage = can you see the poor scaling here?). The latter two options being at fairly crazy 10 or 20" ranges, on a model with 6" movement and no speed-enhancing benefits. (i.e. no red paint).
Reason why I'm going on at length is because I see your advice as bad, I'm trying to reason out why I don't think it is good and I would hope to see other tau generals (at least at the moment, fingers crossed for the codex) fielding more effective options and bringing the Greater Good to all
xmbk wrote: I think it's a mistake to assume markerlights. Those are resources in a list that too many players just write off. It's true that some units gain more from multiple hits than others, but an apple to apple comparison requires assuming no markers, imo..
Ignoring an enormously common and important part fo every Tau army seems like pretending to me. Why pretend you dont have access to it when you do? Why not use it when you have access to it.
Jancoran wrote: You're taking it because you can't get that kind of immense killing power in one place at one time.
It doesn't have immense killing power, that's the thing.
It does and its strange to me to hear you say that. With Pylkons down and Markerlights on, it is hitting with all four missiles...average 8 wounds against which there is no answer other than the occassional 6+ FnP. It is firing its shotgun with immense killing power as well and hitting with it almost assuredly without fail (yes it happens...of course). Another 12 wounds potentially. ALL this on one target at one time and we havent even fired the rest fo the weapons that use ATS. I'm sorry, but that is straight up scary firepower.
A one time use 8 wounds is not great man. And the 12 wounds potentially are a very unreliable potentially. 20" is gak, I know, I played Bastiladons a lot. 4 shots is gak too. You will miss some, then sometimes roll a one or two to wound, then your opponent will pass some invulnerable saves, and you'll end up far from 12 wounds. That's not even considering the fact that your opponent will shoot at the Stormsurge and it will quickly go down to BS5+. If we had to judge our entries on wound potential then 3 Crisis with 3 Missile Pod each would be amazing at a whooping 54 potential wounds.
At least if the gun remained at Heavy 6 all the time, that would be something, but right now, it's really nothing to be excited about.
To me the issue is not even the price, it's the unreliability. And that's a common trait to the entire army, and it is why reliable entries like Commanders are preferred.
If only we had twice the amount of shots on all our guns, then it would work. Or +1BS at 3 Markerlight.
xmbk wrote: I think it's a mistake to assume markerlights. Those are resources in a list that too many players just write off. It's true that some units gain more from multiple hits than others, but an apple to apple comparison requires assuming no markers, imo..
Ignoring an enormously common and important part fo every Tau army seems like pretending to me. Why pretend you dont have access to it when you do? Why not use it when you have access?
Because it is a hidden cost to the Stormsurge. You have to pay for those markerlights. Fusion Commanders don't need them.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: I think it's a real stretch to say the Stormsurge is a competitive option right now, and I'm not convinced I would even bring it to a casual game.
Hard to disagree, and I could say that about several other awesome models, unfortunately. Stormsurges have reasonably good durability for the price, but as noted repeatedly, mass s5 fire is not something we're hurting for at all. The pulse driver is a complete joke now, and while the blast cannon is actually fairly decent, the overall cost of the surge renders it awful. D missiles need a lot of help to be worth the cost. They just don't drop enough damage to validate the points or logistical problems involved in using them. Please, codex, make Stormsurges great again!
i used it in a couple of games and yeah it just doesnt do anything. Inability to drone-guard it means it gets picked down to BS5+ almost instantly, and at that point hes practically worthless. The fact that we need him to not get down to 10 or less wounds for a full turn so he can deploy anchors AND get a fistful of lights on a target to even attempt to use those destroyer missiles is irritating, then they just do a combined 5 damage because D3 luck is horrible. Destroyer missiles should be doing D6 damage or flat 3 given how insanely expensive it is to bring them. I could just bring well over a dozen seekers for about the same price, and because of ML's not spending anymore get them all off just as reliably.
Also would like to point out how disgustingly bad hazard suits are right now. Why they got nerfed is beyond me, they werent that great to begin with. The only gun worth shaking a stick at last edition was the phased ions, which did 4 shots at S4 AP5 Rending. Now they do D3 shots and didnt get stronger or longer range or cheaper...wat? Another FW model i own that will collect dust now.
xmbk wrote: I think it's a mistake to assume markerlights. Those are resources in a list that too many players just write off. It's true that some units gain more from multiple hits than others, but an apple to apple comparison requires assuming no markers, imo..
Ignoring an enormously common and important part fo every Tau army seems like pretending to me. Why pretend you dont have access to it when you do? Why not use it when you have access?
Because it is a hidden cost to the Stormsurge. You have to pay for those markerlights. Fusion Commanders don't need them.
Fusion commanders dont need them and Fusion Commanders do nowhere near the damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Haechi wrote: A one time use 8 wounds is not great man. And the 12 wounds potentially are a very unreliable potentially. 20" is gak, I know, I played Bastiladons a lot. 4 shots is gak too. You will miss some, then sometimes roll a one or two to wound, then your opponent will pass some invulnerable saves, and you'll end up far from 12 wounds. That's not even considering the fact that your opponent will shoot at the Stormsurge and it will quickly go down to BS5+. If we had to judge our entries on wound potential then 3 Crisis with 3 Missile Pod each would be amazing at a whooping 54 potential wounds.
At least if the gun remained at Heavy 6 all the time, that would be something, but right now, it's really nothing to be excited about.
To me the issue is not even the price, it's the unreliability. And that's a common trait to the entire army, and it is why reliable entries like Commanders are preferred.
If only we had twice the amount of shots on all our guns, then it would work. Or +1BS at 3 Markerlight.
Then play without a Stormsurge? If your only defense is to say "12 wounds from just two of its weapon systmes from one unit in one round is nothing big" well then um... sure. Don't use one. I guess?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sabaw wrote: Hi I'm new to tau and Friends of mine are trying to get me into 40k, not sure if i want to as i may not have the full dedication of time for it. However, looking at some of the models, I love some of em even on just a collecting and hobby standpoint (i like mecha). So given that there are some units that i like, would a basic 1000pt army work with this composition?
+++ tau (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [49 PL, 1000pts] +++
Vehicle/super heavy eater with light protection that can homing beacon in.
+ Elites [] +
XV104 Riptide Battlesuit []: 2x Smart missile system [], Advanced targeting system [], Heavy burst cannon [], Target lock []
Love the model and tried to keep the points down (lol). Serves as my anti infantry (light to heavy), nova charging whenever needed. Will be protected by drones.
Markerlight support (i think i really only want the 1st markerlight), boots on the ground, with light vehicle/heavy inf killing ability.
Tactical Drones []: 4x MV1 Gun Drone []
XV104 bodyguards
I understand some might cry cheese, but tbh from what ive been reading, im actually gimping myself by including the riptide and the keel in one list. Im putting em both because theyre both models that i love (HUEG MECH), and the others based on what I can find that works pretty well. Again, this is a list that is collecting first, and then casual gaming with my buddies second.
2 HRR Broadsides with Velocity tracker and pocket Ethereal
or
3 Crisis with 3 Missile pods each with a pocket Ethereal
Both will come with a few Shield Drones
Well since enemies with any sense will not try to outshoot Tau (in general) and will approach, and given the Smart Missiles are copious enough and good enough against a lot of targets... and there's more wounds in the Broadsides that are harder to remove... and given that it takes more wounds to reduce the units firepower...I'd say Broadsides in that scenario.
Also would like to point out how disgustingly bad hazard suits are right now. Why they got nerfed is beyond me, they werent that great to begin with. The only gun worth shaking a stick at last edition was the phased ions, which did 4 shots at S4 AP5 Rending. Now they do D3 shots and didnt get stronger or longer range or cheaper...wat?
Another FW model i own that will collect dust now.
Erm... Hazards with DBBC are one of the msot cost-effective units in our payroll. Slap an ATS on it and watch GAQ stuff melt!
Also, they can bring 4 drones with only 1 suit.
Think of them as concentraded Fire Warriors you can put anywhere on the table
The Fusion Cascade option isn't as good as the Commander (and what is), but it's more cost-effective than Melta Crisis
Fusion commanders dont need them and Fusion Commanders do nowhere near the damage.
I'm guessing you mean "per model". If you mean per point, I just don't see how a Stormsurge is more efficient for taking out that enemy unit that has to be taken out immediately.
I just don't see how a Stormsurge is more efficient for taking out that enemy unit that has to be taken out immediately.
That's probably because it's not. 3 fusion Commanders are going to wreck a lot more face than a Stormsurge, and I'd like to think it's fairly obvious to just about everyone that's the case. We waste a lot of time going foolishly going in endless circles regarding clearly underpowered units in these Tau threads, and there's a reason all I can see of the other side of the discussion is your quoted text.
Hazards with DBBC are one of the msot cost-effective units in our payroll.
I don't know that I'd go quite that far, but they're a reasonable option, mostly thanks to the 4 drone thing. 93pts for 4 burst cannons on a somewhat durable platform isn't exactly a steal, but it's worth considering. If you can wrangle a drone controller in range from another source, that's certainly quite helpful. It's nice to drop in next to a Commander or two for some crowd control and much-needed drone wounds.
. I definitely like the Brigade detachment for Tau, as those extra 
