Agreed. Rubrics are pretty decent. The codex fixed one of their biggest flaws (being slow) with Webway Infiltration and Dark Matter Crystal.
Their main flaw right now is being slightly overpriced and having overpriced Warpflamers.
My main issue with the Soulreaper Cannon isn't that we cant have 1-per-5, but I think it should be 1-per-9: Favoured Number and would allow for Sorcerers/Exalted's to accompany them in Rhinos.
If only Rubrics had a better than normal rapid fire weapon. Something with, I dunno, a -2 AP or something. That, and just hear me out, what if they were as tough as Terminators against small arms fire and have a 5++ to help against the big guns? Wouldn't that be cool?
/sarcasm off
Look, I'm not saying they're the best troop unit in the game or anything, but to talk as if Rubrics have nothing going for them is insanity.
There's little you can do to convince them otherwise. Any perceived nerf is an underhanded sales tactic. As well as any buff.
Though it's not really a "free sorcerer" now is it? He can't cast smite to save his life and he instantly kills half his own unit the moment he perils. What he is left with is the Thousand Sons lore to pick his power from, and that's a 7-9+ to cast lore. Plus practically every spell that you would want to cast in the game you would actually give to a sorcerer with a bonus to cast. So in effect it's not a free sorcerer, it's a unit champion. And nobody pays for those any more either.
I will have to board the Nintura boat on this one. Rubrics without 4++, with 15 pt flamers (wot), with only 1 heavy weapon allowed in 10 models (like we are fricking cultists and not ancient powerful elite Cult troupe) and with an all-but-useless aspiring sorcerer whose only saving grace is a plasma pistol option. Rubrics are useless.
If only Rubrics had a better than normal rapid fire weapon. Something with, I dunno, a -2 AP or something. That, and just hear me out, what if they were as tough as Terminators against small arms fire and have a 5++ to help against the big guns? Wouldn't that be cool?
/sarcasm off
Look, I'm not saying they're the best troop unit in the game or anything, but to talk as if Rubrics have nothing going for them is insanity.
Lol yeah I am with you here. Take a 20 man squad, give the sorcerer weaver of fate to cast on themselves, let them lose on the board and watch the fun start. Expensive for sure but 2+/3++ or 3+/4++ on a large squad like that can have a serious effect on an enemy force. All that -2ap is very effective vs other enemy forces that use heavy elite units.
I have had a lot of success with 2 rubric squads of 10 and 2 cultist squads of 10, next game I am going to try 3 cultist squads of 10 and a single rubric of 20 set to "self sustainable" mode with that and see how they do. Maybe take a cheap exalted sorcerer for reroll 1's and dark crystal to help with mobility.
Anyone have any ideas about the "exalted" getting dual power swords for +1 attack? That seems... odd.
If only Rubrics had a better than normal rapid fire weapon. Something with, I dunno, a -2 AP or something. That, and just hear me out, what if they were as tough as Terminators against small arms fire and have a 5++ to help against the big guns? Wouldn't that be cool?
/sarcasm off
Look, I'm not saying they're the best troop unit in the game or anything, but to talk as if Rubrics have nothing going for them is insanity.
There's little you can do to convince them otherwise. Any perceived nerf is an underhanded sales tactic. As well as any buff.
And of course they get said things for free... Oh wait. They have to pay points for it, like everyone else? Huh? What kind of rules are those? /s.
Nobody said to buff the Rubrics. But after the official FAQ, there are still two entries and two profiles for the same unit. This is sloppy writing, considering how many people asked in the facebook pages for this to get addressed. It's quite simply actually. It should be one or the other. Which one is it, GW? Nope, no answer. Sure, while at it, it would be good if we got the soulreaper in 5 models, because Rubrics are supposed to be 10,000 year old war veterans, elite Cult troupe born by advanced sorcery, not random cultists. Like every other mainstay infantry in the GAME, they should be able to get their heavy weapon in 5 models. But the other option would also be acceptable, as long as it was clarified. But they released the FAQ and they did not even address the issue. That's why we are salty, not because we wanted 5 point bodies with 3+ armor and immunity to hit roll modifiers and overpowered guns.... oh wait.
Would you give the two most critical spells we have on an aspiring or on Ahriman?
Hold on, let me go fetch the goalposts you just moved...
Temporal Manipulation is hardly "the most critical" power we have, so I'm perfectly happy giving it (and Flamestorm) on my Aspiring Sorcerers.
I usually give Weaver of Fates to my Tzaangor Shaman.
As for Ahriman...he's usually busy manfesting Dark Hereticus-powers, although I tend to give him Glamour as well.
Heelidar wrote: I really hoped that they just make AS do a psy test with one dice.
And why would you hope for that? They would be a LOT worse with only one die.
Yes, but one die means no perils, and you never use AS to cast anything important anyway, while it is still enough to cast smite. After that nerf they can make soulreapers for 5 man squads and rubrics will get a much-needed benefit with a slight nerf that is not really important/
Yes, but one die means no perils, and you never use AS to cast anything important anyway
Correction: "You" might never use your AS to cast anything important.
I'm personally very happy that my Aspiring Sorcerers/Occult Sorcerers are 'real' Psykers with real powers, and not restricted to a gimped Smite.
Between Gaze of Fate and CP-reroll's they're usually safe from PotW.
Edit: If you're that afraid of PotW, just give them a "backup-power" to use if whatever primary caster who has it dies.
Fenris-77 wrote: OK, I like it. Now, what happens when I ask if that 433pt unit does the job you describe better or worse than 60 Horrors. You see where I'm going? The Horrors drop 180 shots (out of DS if that's your thing) also with all kinds of buff potential.
Both units have lots of buffs available, but I wonder if KSons players aren't taking a bit of a bath taking Rubrics instead of Horrors, generally speaking. I do like Dark Matter Crystal Shenanigans, so there's that, but it feels more niche than a straight out equalizer. Plus the crystal could be used on other units for late game type[ stuff anyway. IDK. Maybe I just wanted Rubrics ot be a more obvious choice in the list that is defined by them.
You can't take horrors in TS armies, only summon them. You need to include Daemon detachments, and then you don't have TS any more.
That last bit is opinion, not fact. Some people might like mono armies, but that's not how 8th Ed works. Not hating btw, I like mono armies, they aren't the playing field that 8th works on (whether we like it or not).
Except it is not. The Thousand Sons codex is pretty clear on this. This is the tactics section about Thousand Son armies, not the tactics section about Daemon armies. Suggesting to remove rubric marines for horrors to improve the "Thousand Sons" army is anything but.
You can play horrors as part of the KSons codex if you feel like summoning them. So how is talking about Horrors vs Rubrics not part of this tactics thread? Further, since allied detachments are part of the game, and are generally chosen for, wait for it, tactical reasons, how is that discussion also not germane to the tactics thread in question? I respect your determination to go mono-codex, but that doesn't make you the arbiter of what's 'proper' or not for the tactics thread. Tactics discussions about Imperials Armies, Chaos Armies, and Eldar Armies will inevitably at times include discussions about 'soup' lists, because that's how the game works. If soup isn't your thing, that's fine, no one's forcing anyone here, but please refrain from telling me not to talk about stuff I'm allowed to field in my KSons army in the KSons tactics thread. Thanks.
I'm going to buy some heavy support for my TS and thinking about them.
Forgefiend: Defiler looks superior to Forgefiend because it has MUCH more powerful melee and +2W for only +25pts.
Predators: are not so easy. They have -3W comparing to Defiler but they cost -20pts and have 3+ BS instead of Defilers 4+. But they do not have invul save so they are more durable. But they have killshot and if we get to go 1st we potentially can do A LOT of damage. Also if we run only Preds with autocanons they cost 130pts each! It's very very cheap for 2d3 dmg 3 shots.
Defiler: 14W, 5++, heal 1, flickering flames and daemonforge looks great. But they're only BS 4+. With lot of armies have -1 to hit we're hit only on 5s...
So actually right now it looks like 2 options are 2xDefilers with twin las or 3xPredators with autocanons.
Points wise it's 420pts for Defilers or 390pts for 3 Predators.
Average they do same damage but potentially can do killshot and do not require 1CP every turn for daemonforge.
Wounds count it's 28W total for Defilers or 33W total for Predators. This 5W difference might be same in average than 5++ Defiler save and does not rely on lucky / unlucky save rolls.
I'd probably go Predators if you have room for the three-spot. If we're talking just one or two (so no kill shot) then I'd probably go Defiler, although maybe not with Twin LC for cost reasons.
Yes, but one die means no perils, and you never use AS to cast anything important anyway
Correction: "You" might never use your AS to cast anything important.
I'm personally very happy that my Aspiring Sorcerers are actual Psykers with real powers, and not restricted to a gimped Smite.
Between Gaze of Fate and CP-reroll's they're usually safe from PotW.
Yes you might, but still, they are not reliable casters, and considering that you take only one spell from one discipline before the game, a discipline where most spells are not easy to cast, you are going to duplicate that spell on a more potent caster anyway. May be its just me, but I don't really need these underperforming sorcerors with access to one mediocre discipline and a chance to make a squad of expensive rubrics useless. I'd prefer a 5 man soulreaper with a smiting only AS and 1 deny. But again, I am talking about the realities of one unique spell for spell phase. If that beta rule gets removed, I'd think otherwise.
Heelidar wrote: I really hoped that they just make AS do a psy test with one dice.
And why would you hope for that? They would be a LOT worse with only one die.
Yes, but one die means no perils, and you never use AS to cast anything important anyway, while it is still enough to cast smite. After that nerf they can make soulreapers for 5 man squads and rubrics will get a much-needed benefit with a slight nerf that is not really important/
1) It is easy to protect your aspiring sorcerers from peril with Gaze of Fate. With access to a single reroll the probability of perill is less than 1%, and you will only actually use the GoF reroll in less than 6% of your attempts, so most of the time the reroll is available for other uses. The aspiring sorcerers are pretty decent psykers really and amazingly cheap.
2) The soulreaper cannon is one per ten models, because there is one cannon and ten rubrics in the box. This is simply not going to change. I am still hoping for a slight point decrease on rubrics and on warpflamers. Intercessors and plague marines had a few downwards points adjustments once the meta had settled, so it is not too unlikely that the same will happen for Rubrics.
Yes you might, but still, they are not reliable casters, and considering that you take only one spell from one discipline before the game, a discipline where most spells are not easy to cast, you are going to duplicate that spell on a more potent caster anyway. May be its just me, but I don't really need these underperforming sorcerors with access to one mediocre discipline and a chance to make a squad of expensive rubrics useless. I'd prefer a 5 man soulreaper with a smiting only AS and 1 deny. But again, I am talking about the realities of one unique spell for spell phase. If that beta rule gets removed, I'd think otherwise.
They are just as reliable as Demon Princes, Exalteds without relics and sorcerers. And they are certainly more reliable when casting with two dice than when casting with one.
I simply do not understand the complaining. It is a 27 point psyker. Not a gimped psyker like an astropath or a warlock, but a plain old psyker. For 27 points.
1) It is easy to protect your aspiring sorcerers from peril with Gaze of Fate. With access to a single reroll the probability of perill is less than 1%, and you will only actually use the GoF reroll in less than 6% of your attempts, so most of the time the reroll is available for other uses. The aspiring sorcerers are pretty decent psykers really and amazingly cheap.
2) The soulreaper cannon is one per ten models, because there is one cannon and ten rubrics in the box. This is simply not going to change. I am still hoping for a slight point decrease on rubrics and on warpflamers. Intercessors and plague marines had a few downwards points adjustments once the meta had settled, so it is not too unlikely that the same will happen for Rubrics.
1. It's a classic case of "Just because you can...". Sure we can do it. But that does not change the fact that the AS is badly designed. This is not 5th edition warhammer, with instinctive behavior tyranids killing their own and necrons disappearing at 25%. This is 2018. Building a unit which has the possibility to - by making use of its very own special ability - instantly kill 2d3 models off its own unit while suiciding itself, with no save allowed whatsoever, is just bad game design at this point. We should be incentivized to play strategically to the game, not to play strategically in order to prevent design oversights.
2. The wording in the CSM codex is perfectly fine, and it allows for 1 soulreaper in 5 models or more AND 2 soulreapers in 20 models. Perfectly in accordance with the rubrics kit and keeping rubrics relevant at the same time. But the worst thing about this issue is that it was not addressed at all! We did not get a yes or a no. So now we still have the same uncertainty as before, only now it's post FAQ. And we still have 2 separate entries for the same unit.
2) The soulreaper cannon is one per ten models, because there is one cannon and ten rubrics in the box. This is simply not going to change. I am still hoping for a slight point decrease on rubrics and on warpflamers. Intercessors and plague marines had a few downwards points adjustments once the meta had settled, so it is not too unlikely that the same will happen for Rubrics.
2) The soulreaper cannon is one per ten models, because there is one cannon and ten rubrics in the box. This is simply not going to change. I am still hoping for a slight point decrease on rubrics and on warpflamers. Intercessors and plague marines had a few downwards points adjustments once the meta had settled, so it is not too unlikely that the same will happen for Rubrics.
Heelidar wrote: I really hoped that they just make AS do a psy test with one dice.
And why would you hope for that? They would be a LOT worse with only one die.
A lot worse means a lot cheaper as well, which would help with the points cost situation. On top of that not having to waste CP and GoF reroll to make sure you don't lose 70 points worth of models and instead simply
Yes, but one die means no perils, and you never use AS to cast anything important anyway
Correction: "You" might never use your AS to cast anything important.
I'm personally very happy that my Aspiring Sorcerers/Occult Sorcerers are 'real' Psykers with real powers, and not restricted to a gimped Smite.
Between Gaze of Fate and CP-reroll there usually safe from PotW.
Edit: If you're that afraid of PotW, just give them a "backup-power" to use if whatever primary caster who has it dies.
Okay, couple of questions.
1.) How many Rubric squads do you bring IIRC you said somewhere that you would NEVER bring more then 1 unit of Rubricae its either SOT or Rubrics correct?
2.) How do you make them reliable when casting do you just give them a 6+ power (72%), or do you use CF and have them cast a 7+ spell (58% goes to 83%)?
3.) Why not take a unit of Tzaangors or Cultists instead and bring 1 more Sorc to cast those spells? He is literally just as likely to cast them, will survive perils, and can be healed afterwards.
4.) What role do your Rubrics fill?
MinscS2 wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote: What he is left with is the Thousand Sons lore to pick his power from, and that's a 7-9+ to cast lore..
6-9+ to cast lore, not 7-9+.
Weaver of Fates and Temporal Manipulation are both 6+.
WoF is a crucial spell, and if your bringing TM its for a reason and you want to cast it somewhat reliably, that being said 72% is fairly reliable.
Though it's not really a "free sorcerer" now is it? He can't cast smite to save his life and he instantly kills half his own unit the moment he perils. What he is left with is the Thousand Sons lore to pick his power from, and that's a 7-9+ to cast lore. Plus practically every spell that you would want to cast in the game you would actually give to a sorcerer with a bonus to cast. So in effect it's not a free sorcerer, it's a unit champion. And nobody pays for those any more either.
I will have to board the Nintura boat on this one. Rubrics without 4++, with 15 pt flamers (wot), with only 1 heavy weapon allowed in 10 models (like we are fricking cultists and not ancient powerful elite Cult troupe) and with an all-but-useless aspiring sorcerer whose only saving grace is a plasma pistol option. Rubrics are useless.
If only Rubrics had a better than normal rapid fire weapon. Something with, I dunno, a -2 AP or something. That, and just hear me out, what if they were as tough as Terminators against small arms fire and have a 5++ to help against the big guns? Wouldn't that be cool?
/sarcasm off
Look, I'm not saying they're the best troop unit in the game or anything, but to talk as if Rubrics have nothing going for them is insanity.
Except most people agree that the more "elite" your units are the worse off they are, your not making a case they are good. Your making the case that they are bad like, really bad especially since IIRC they are one of the most expensive Troops unit in the game (on a per model basis).
This unit, when combined with Veterans of the Long War just tore things up and generally killed whatever they shot at.
I'd expect nothing less from a 660pts-unit.
I'd never field this myself though, you've basically lost the game if you fail Warptime.
That's why another rubric unit or flying character and cabalistic ritual are mandatory for alpha strike lists. Casting Warptime with a +4 bonus with a gaze of fate reroll should be more or less guaranteed. Also, my first thought was "oh no, 17 flamers in a unit, what a waste!" Then I remembered we can actually split fire at will. And Votlw once for all of them..... Then weaver of fates and glamour of tzeentch to survive the incoming onslaught. Then dark matter crystal out of combat and repeat...
I think if we manage to do this we could really finish whole games by turn two...
Automatically Appended Next Post: On an unrelated topic:
Is anyone else annoyed that the plagueburst clawler is a lot better than the Defiler?
In terms of armaments they are really comparable. Mortar is almost the same as the battle cannon, the crawler's side weapons are practically lascannons. They are both daemon engines, so increased survivability for a BS trade off.
In numbers:
Mortar: 12-48", same shots, str, ap and damage.
Battle cannon: 72" While battle cannon is better in range, 72" really is an overkill, 48" is more than enough and the mortar is also a plague weapon.
Entropy cannons vs lascannons: Entropy cannon has 36" range vs 48", one less strength but one better ap which I dare say is better for the mortar.
Survivability wise they are practically equal. T8 12W 5++/5+++ for the crawler, T7 14W, 5++ and 1 heal/turn free for the defiler. Pretty much the same if you ask me.
In hth the defiler has a clear advantage, but how often does the defiler end up in close combat really?
Ultimately though, even if they are pretty similar to their role, plagueburst crawler comes at 150 pts while a lascannon defiler clocks at 200. Do you think the added hth potential justifies the 50 pt price hike? Even if it does, do you think this hurts the overall army, since the "jack of all trades" approach never really worked in Warhammer?
No, I think the extra 50 points is completely justified on the defiler. What needs to be understood is it's not just good in melee, it's freaking AMAZING in melee. And it's honestly not too hard to get it there or at least threaten charges, given that it moves 8" and can warptime. I usually find that I only really need warptime turn 1 for getting my bomb where it's going, and then in later turns I'm either using it to shuffle rubrics around, sprinting a daemon prince somewhere, or just passing it up in favor of smite. The defiler gives me an excellent turn 2-3 warptime target. Generally, turn 1 I will move it normally, if there's a good armored target open for a shooting attack I drop 2cp on Infernal and Daemonforge and go to town, otherwise I advance and pop smoke. I usually give it Glamor and my Tzaangors Weaver and Prescience turn 1, but most often my opponent's first turn with the tzaangors on the board is spent largely trying to clear out the tzaangors. A warptimed Defiler turn 2 is usually in melee at that point, and it does some serious work alongside a daemon prince.
With the FAQ update giving the option for the extra power swords making an Exalted Sorceror basically an Assassin seems pretty fun to do.
What would I need to run the Exalted Sorceror with to make full use?
And also, is summoning a no-no strategy?
I like the idea of dropping a Horror bomb but I don't see much people discussing it. So not allying daemons, but summoning them.
Overdose wrote: With the FAQ update giving the option for the extra power swords making an Exalted Sorceror basically an Assassin seems pretty fun to do.
What would I need to run the Exalted Sorceror with to make full use?
And also, is summoning a no-no strategy?
I like the idea of dropping a Horror bomb but I don't see much people discussing it. So not allying daemons, but summoning them.
Take Seer's Bane and use Boon on him.
Summoning is fine. It's a great way to bring the Changeling onto the table with little fuss.
Though it's not really a "free sorcerer" now is it? He can't cast smite to save his life and he instantly kills half his own unit the moment he perils. What he is left with is the Thousand Sons lore to pick his power from, and that's a 7-9+ to cast lore. Plus practically every spell that you would want to cast in the game you would actually give to a sorcerer with a bonus to cast. So in effect it's not a free sorcerer, it's a unit champion. And nobody pays for those any more either.
I will have to board the Nintura boat on this one. Rubrics without 4++, with 15 pt flamers (wot), with only 1 heavy weapon allowed in 10 models (like we are fricking cultists and not ancient powerful elite Cult troupe) and with an all-but-useless aspiring sorcerer whose only saving grace is a plasma pistol option. Rubrics are useless.
If only Rubrics had a better than normal rapid fire weapon. Something with, I dunno, a -2 AP or something. That, and just hear me out, what if they were as tough as Terminators against small arms fire and have a 5++ to help against the big guns? Wouldn't that be cool?
/sarcasm off
Look, I'm not saying they're the best troop unit in the game or anything, but to talk as if Rubrics have nothing going for them is insanity.
Lol yeah I am with you here. Take a 20 man squad, give the sorcerer weaver of fate to cast on themselves, let them lose on the board and watch the fun start. Expensive for sure but 2+/3++ or 3+/4++ on a large squad like that can have a serious effect on an enemy force. All that -2ap is very effective vs other enemy forces that use heavy elite units.
I have had a lot of success with 2 rubric squads of 10 and 2 cultist squads of 10, next game I am going to try 3 cultist squads of 10 and a single rubric of 20 set to "self sustainable" mode with that and see how they do. Maybe take a cheap exalted sorcerer for reroll 1's and dark crystal to help with mobility.
Anyone have any ideas about the "exalted" getting dual power swords for +1 attack? That seems... odd.
Why is that odd? They are changing the army to a melee focused army with casting support.
Maybe odd wasn't the right word, but I said that because it's not like it was something that was there that was forgotten about in earlier versions of the game. It's not something I expected in the faq or even considered them doing.
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea. Replace my force staff for 2 power swords, and keep my pistol? Cool. Would have been much cooler if I could do it on an exalted on a disk, and it does make exalted a bit more unique compared to Ahriman, but it's not enough to make me go "forget that, I am taking 2 dualist exalteds now" .
If I do take exalteds now I will definitely do that upgrade, but if my exalted is in cc either things just went really bad or I am very desperate.
1.) How many Rubric squads do you bring IIRC you said somewhere that you would NEVER bring more then 1 unit of Rubricae its either SOT or Rubrics correct?
2.) How do you make them reliable when casting do you just give them a 6+ power (72%), or do you use CF and have them cast a 7+ spell (58% goes to 83%)?
3.) Why not take a unit of Tzaangors or Cultists instead and bring 1 more Sorc to cast those spells? He is literally just as likely to cast them, will survive perils, and can be healed afterwards.
4.) What role do your Rubrics fill?
1) 1-2 squads, either 1x20 or 2x10 (in Rhinos preferably). My comment was about either taking a big squad of Rubrics (20) or a big squad of SOT's. Never take a big squad of both. I don't mind taking a big squad of SOT's and 1-2 10-man squads of Rubrics in the same list.
2) 6+ power or an "unimportant" 7+ power like Firestorm/Gift. As for reliability, Gaze of Fate and (if need be) a CP-reroll to prevent them from PotW:ing. If I cast Firestorm or Smite, the re-roll is more intended as preventing PotW rather than actually making the power go off.
3) Apples and Oranges. A Squad of Rubrics fill a entirley different role than a unit of Tzaangors/Cultists and a Sorcerer. One shoots, the other is a character with some fodder.
4) Depends. If one big squad of 20 then as part of an alphastrike. Deepstrike them close to something, VotLW (and preferably prescience and DP/Exalted Aura) and delete something.
If in smaller squads of 10 then I usually put them in Rhinos and use them as 'traditional' rubrics. Drive forward, hop out and shoot something.
They're essentially "dps" with remarkable resilience towards small-arms fire. And if my opponent shoots them with plasma/AT-weaponry, then at least he's not shooting my vehicles.
If nothing else they're one of three possible troop-choices, and since I don't like Cultists and don't always want to run Tzaangors (or only Tzaangors), they usually find a way into my lists. I also really like the Model's.
So, thinking about the dual sword Exalted Sorcerer. Yes, this is a gimmick type unit, but with a low investment load-out, it can become a good character assassin. Still, best to run him with support of some type (I'm actually thinking Tzaangor Enlightened with the spear, or Screamers).
Give him two swords (given), and the artifact Seer's Bane (S: User, AP3 D3 Dam, Special: doubles bearer's strength when targeting Psykers or models with Ld 9+) Give him Diabolic Strength, and another power (Boon of Mutation, Temporal Manipulation, Weaver of fates, Death Hex are all good options). When buffed with DS, you're getting 6 S6 attacks, doubling to 6 S12 attacks against most characters, psykers, and some vehicles. Put him on a disk for better movement and another S4 attack, or keep him on foot to benefit from Infantry key word. Again, kinda a gimmick, but something that might be fun in a casual game.
Heelidar wrote: I really hoped that they just make AS do a psy test with one dice.
I was hoping they would make the AS a seperate unit entirely and give them a 3" aura that benifitted units with the AiD rule. Same for SOT.
I really like the idea, but this is something I was not counting on. And you could have only dreamed about it before the first codex rumours went public. Who knows maybe one day it will become a reality.
Azuza001 wrote: Maybe odd wasn't the right word, but I said that because it's not like it was something that was there that was forgotten about in earlier versions of the game. It's not something I expected in the faq or even considered them doing.
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea. Replace my force staff for 2 power swords, and keep my pistol? Cool. Would have been much cooler if I could do it on an exalted on a disk, and it does make exalted a bit more unique compared to Ahriman, but it's not enough to make me go "forget that, I am taking 2 dualist exalteds now" .
If I do take exalteds now I will definitely do that upgrade, but if my exalted is in cc either things just went really bad or I am very desperate.
Well to be fair he is a watered down version of a DP, if you have 10 man Tzaangor squads he could be quite useful, and with Diabolical Strength they become S6 A6 AP-3 so nothing to scoff at.
1) 1-2 squads, either 1x20 or 2x10 (in Rhinos preferably). My comment was about either taking a big squad of Rubrics (20) or a big squad of SOT's. Never take a big squad of both. I don't mind taking a big squad of SOT's and 1-2 10-man squads of Rubrics in the same list.
2) 6+ power or an "unimportant" 7+ power like Firestorm/Gift. As for reliability, Gaze of Fate and (if need be) a CP-reroll to prevent them from PotW:ing. If I cast Firestorm or Smite, the re-roll is more intended as preventing PotW rather than actually making the power go off.
3) Apples and Oranges. A Squad of Rubrics fill a entirley different role than a unit of Tzaangors/Cultists and a Sorcerer. One shoots, the other is a character with some fodder.
4) Depends. If one big squad of 20 then as part of an alphastrike. Deepstrike them close to something, VotLW (and preferably prescience and DP/Exalted Aura) and delete something.
If in smaller squads of 10 then I usually put them in Rhinos and use them as 'traditional' rubrics. Drive forward, hop out and shoot something.
They're essentially "dps" with remarkable resilience towards small-arms fire. And if my opponent shoots them with plasma/AT-weaponry, then at least he's not shooting my vehicles.
If nothing else they're one of three possible troop-choices, and since I don't like Cultists and don't always want to run Tzaangors (or only Tzaangors), they usually find a way into my lists. I also really like the Model's.
1.) A difference without much distinction, but fair point i guess its more of a don't spend much more then 400 points on Rubricae.
2.) Fair enough i see. I do basically the same.
3.) Well yes, kinda.
4.) This is where the Kinda comes into play. If your going for an Alpha then why not take Tzaangors you can get a 30 man squad amd a Sorc for 100ish points less. When it comes to durability you can cast WoF on a cultist squad to make them durable enough or on a unit of Tzaangors for that matter. It seems like you include them because you simply like them rather then they are perticularly good at anything.
4.) This is where the Kinda comes into play. If your going for an Alpha then why not take Tzaangors you can get a 30 man squad amd a Sorc for 100ish points less. When it comes to durability you can cast WoF on a cultist squad to make them durable enough or on a unit of Tzaangors for that matter. It seems like you include them because you simply like them rather then they are perticularly good at anything.
Rubrics and Tzaangors are not mutually exclusive in an alphastrike, you can take both.
Tzaangors want Warptime and VotLW in the fight-phase.
Rubrics want Prescience and VotLW in the shooting-phase.
That's my reason for not bringing a big unit of Rubrics and SOT's in the same list: They both want Prescience and VotLW in the same phase, but you can only give it to one of them.
The same applies to Tzaangors; You don't want to Webway Infiltrate two big units, because they both want Warptime and VotLW, but you can only give it to one of them.
As for not being particularly good at anything, on the turn they arrive, said unit of Rubrics will on average do:
34,8 wounds against GEQ's.
21,6 wounds against MEQ's.
15,7 wounds against TEQ's.
14,6 wounds against T7 3+.
10,8 wounds against T8 3+. (not their optimal target.)
(This assumes Prescience, VotLW and a DP/Exalted reroll, all 3 buffs which are easy to come by and should be applied when you're spending so much pts on a unit.)
They will overkill most infantry they're shooting at, luckily we can splitfire at will in 8th Ed.
4.) This is where the Kinda comes into play. If your going for an Alpha then why not take Tzaangors you can get a 30 man squad amd a Sorc for 100ish points less. When it comes to durability you can cast WoF on a cultist squad to make them durable enough or on a unit of Tzaangors for that matter. It seems like you include them because you simply like them rather then they are perticularly good at anything.
Rubrics and Tzaangors are not mutually exclusive in an alphastrike, you can take both.
Tzaangors want Warptime and VotLW in the fight-phase.
Rubrics want Prescience and VotLW in the shooting-phase.
That's my reason for not bringing a big unit of Rubrics and SOT's in the same list: They both want Prescience and VotLW in the same phase, but you can only give it to one of them.
The same applies to Tzaangors; You don't want to Webway Infiltrate two big units, because they both want Warptime and VotLW, but you can only give it to one of them.
As for not being particularly good at anything, on the turn they arrive, said unit of Rubrics will on average do:
34,8 wounds against GEQ's.
21,6 wounds against MEQ's.
15,7 wounds against TEQ's.
14,6 wounds against T7 3+.
10,8 wounds against T8 3+. (not their optimal target.)
(This assumes Prescience, VotLW and a DP/Exalted reroll, all 3 buffs which are easy to come by and should be applied when you're spending so much pts on a unit.)
They will overkill most infantry they're shooting at, luckily we can splitfire at will in 8th Ed.
That's why I like scarabs, because they can do both. Drop down, get warptime, prescience and votlw in shooting, eliminate a unit, then charge and votlw in melee to eliminate another unit. You don't have to decide between deepstriking one unit at a time. Also you have one target to throw all your defensive buffs at rather than two.
4.) This is where the Kinda comes into play. If your going for an Alpha then why not take Tzaangors you can get a 30 man squad amd a Sorc for 100ish points less. When it comes to durability you can cast WoF on a cultist squad to make them durable enough or on a unit of Tzaangors for that matter. It seems like you include them because you simply like them rather then they are perticularly good at anything.
Rubrics and Tzaangors are not mutually exclusive in an alphastrike, you can take both.
Tzaangors want Warptime and VotLW in the fight-phase.
Rubrics want Prescience and VotLW in the shooting-phase.
That's my reason for not bringing a big unit of Rubrics and SOT's in the same list: They both want Prescience and VotLW in the same phase, but you can only give it to one of them.
The same applies to Tzaangors; You don't want to Webway Infiltrate two big units, because they both want Warptime and VotLW, but you can only give it to one of them.
As for not being particularly good at anything, on the turn they arrive, said unit of Rubrics will on average do:
34,8 wounds against GEQ's.
21,6 wounds against MEQ's.
15,7 wounds against TEQ's.
14,6 wounds against T7 3+.
10,8 wounds against T8 3+. (not their optimal target.)
(This assumes Prescience, VotLW and a DP/Exalted reroll, all 3 buffs which are easy to come by and should be applied when you're spending so much pts on a unit.)
They will overkill most infantry they're shooting at, luckily we can splitfire at will in 8th Ed.
Except that Scarabs:
1) Deep strike for free vs Deep strike for 2CP/your relic.
2) Have exactly the same amount of firepower plus two hellfyre rockets, so if you want to VOTLW them in the shooting phase, go right ahead. It's certainly what I do. Why would I VOTLW their 2 S4 AP-3 D1 melee attacks when I can VOTLW their 4 S4 AP-2 D1 shooting attacks + special guns?
3) Have no morale issues
4) get a melee weapons basically for free as compared to equal points of rubrics
In my eyes, Scarabs beat Rubrics as deep strike alpha hands down. The only time Rubrics are doing something different to recommend them is when you're taking them with Warpflamers, and then you're warptiming them, which IMO is a much less efficient turn 1 warptime than 30 tzaangors into combat.
I think the point you describe is valid, I just think the competing unit fits that role far, far better, wheras Rubrics are much better suited to the rhino-borne highly durable midfield slugger/spell support role.
Dakka I find is this weird place where a large number of people really only seem to want to talk in terms of top-tier tournament competitiveness, and to be fair a few do legitimately seem to be living in that special kind of hellscape where all their opponents are ebaying their armies every 3 months to stay on top of the meta hotness, but the rest seem to just want to talk like they do.
This leads to some strange situations where people will take a unit that they like and theory-craft how great they'd be against top tier meta lists, and then the unit they don't like they'll theory-craft how quickly the meta list will destroy them, when in actual practice they've never played against said meta list or have only played against semi-competitive versions (like say a normal eldar list with one max-sized ynnari reaper unit with a farseer).
For most people, stuff depends on the local meta. Lots of local metas feature way more MEQ/elite armies than the current tournament meta favors - against these opponents, 10 man rhino squads of rubrics will be very effective. If people are playing Tau, Space Marines, Chaos Marines, Sisters of Battle, Necrons, etc - Rubrics paired with a solid tzaangor distraction carnifex makes for an excellent core of a thousand sons list. Against horde armies like Orks, Guard, or gribble swarm nids, then minimal rubrics and lots of Tzaangors/Daemons will work better for you. And if you love rubrics but hate the goats and you're in a local area where loads of people are playing guard and nids, every unit of tzeentch daemons you bring in to support yourself with is going to be absolute gold for your army. A tzeentch battalion with 2 min-sized brim/blue units as a deep strike screen, a single maxed pink unit, a herald, changeling, and 6 flamers in deep strike is more than enough tailoring against common mid-level horde army setups to allow you to run classic rubric-focused thousand sons and compete just fine.
Oh I'm not trying to debate Rubrics over Scarabs, I prefer Scarabs as well (even if Rubrics have some advantages in being troops, being less vulnerable to multi-damage attacks and actually having 3 extra S4 AP2 shots at 12" range, 35 vs 32), I'm just trying to point out that Rubrics are not useless.
I think rubrics really shine when in cover sitting on an objective. There is little reason to use a scarab if your doing that, it just costs more for arguably the same effectiveness. If your on the offensive then going scarabs are the better option. So really, what's your game plan? That determines everything. And which one is able to adapt to the others roll if things change when you start deploying?
Azuza001 wrote: I think rubrics really shine when in cover sitting on an objective. There is little reason to use a scarab if your doing that, it just costs more for arguably the same effectiveness. If your on the offensive then going scarabs are the better option. So really, what's your game plan? That determines everything. And which one is able to adapt to the others roll if things change when you start deploying?
If only they had a nice heavy weapon to use when camping that objective huh?
Azuza001 wrote: I think rubrics really shine when in cover sitting on an objective. There is little reason to use a scarab if your doing that, it just costs more for arguably the same effectiveness. If your on the offensive then going scarabs are the better option. So really, what's your game plan? That determines everything. And which one is able to adapt to the others roll if things change when you start deploying?
If only they had a nice heavy weapon to use when camping that objective huh?
Sure, if you want to pay the tax another 5 men would cost, and hope they have cover that's big enough to put them all into.
Azuza001 wrote: I think rubrics really shine when in cover sitting on an objective. There is little reason to use a scarab if your doing that, it just costs more for arguably the same effectiveness. If your on the offensive then going scarabs are the better option. So really, what's your game plan? That determines everything. And which one is able to adapt to the others roll if things change when you start deploying?
If only they had a nice heavy weapon to use when camping that objective huh?
Sure, if you want to pay the tax another 5 men would cost, and hope they have cover that's big enough to put them all into.
Eh, the loss of the soul reaper isn't the end of the world to me. It makes me sad yes but not enough to not run 5 men camper squads. I like inferno bolters a lot, they simply are amazing guns.
Plus death hex + rubrics vs genestealers = dead stealers for days....
Azuza001 wrote: I think rubrics really shine when in cover sitting on an objective. There is little reason to use a scarab if your doing that, it just costs more for arguably the same effectiveness. If your on the offensive then going scarabs are the better option. So really, what's your game plan? That determines everything. And which one is able to adapt to the others roll if things change when you start deploying?
If only they had a nice heavy weapon to use when camping that objective huh?
Sure, if you want to pay the tax another 5 men would cost, and hope they have cover that's big enough to put them all into.
I usually do bring the 10-man squad and find they work well, grab that Soulreaper cannon and set them up somewhere midfield. 10 bodies means they're more than just a unit that sits there doing nothing on the objective and instead does fairly solid damage at 24". I usually have at least some gunline components/vehicles benefitting from ahriman or an exalt, and the 10 man rubric squads mean I can usually get them in range of the aura as well as in cover.
Where I play we generally use the Statuary rule for all our cover, so "fully on or within" is not an issue for us. Models within 3" and 25% obscured by the terrain are within cover.
My additional thoughts on making use of 20 Rubrics in the Webway...
Drop the Rubrics, Sorcerer, and Abaddon in. Abaddon gives morale immunity. Position him so he can do a heroic intervention. Get Glamour and Weaver up on Rubrics and double tap away.
The rest of the list is fairly subjective. I've thought about a good number of dreadnoughts with double fists getting healed, but that might take too long.
Daedalus81 wrote: My additional thoughts on making use of 20 Rubrics in the Webway...
Drop the Rubrics, Sorcerer, and Abaddon in. Abaddon gives morale immunity. Position him so he can do a heroic intervention. Get Glamour and Weaver up on Rubrics and double tap away.
1) The only unit in your list that benefits from Abaddons fearless buff is your rubric mob. It is essentially impossible for your rubrics to lose 240 points worth of models to morale.
2) Abaddons other big buff is full rerolls of failed hits to black legion units. This is why he is often seen surrounded by big 40-model squads of cultists. 40 cultists with hit rerolls and fearless that are continuously recycled with the Tide of Traitors stratagem is pretty effective. But your list makes no use of that buff, even though you have 20 cultists in another detachment.
3) Abaddon grants 2 CP if he is your warlord, but by taking the Dark Matter Crystal he cannot be your warlord. Without those two CP's (that you have paid for but forfeited) your list will have 6 CPs (a patrol detachment grants no CP's), of which you will use 3 for deep striking. That means you will have 3 CP's for the entire game, which I think is a bit on the low side. Why not just take a cheap abaddon-less batallion and use two of the CP's to autopass morale if necessary?
4) By positioning Abaddon so he can do heroic intervention, I am assuming that it is part of your plan that your Rubrics will get charged? Is that wise?
pismakron wrote: 1) The only unit in your list that benefits from Abaddons fearless buff is your rubric mob. It is essentially impossible for your rubrics to lose 240 points worth of models to morale.
As by design, because it's the only unit I can fully protect. The goal is not to prevent 240 points of morale loss, but to make the mental equation of focusing on this unit less of a good choice while also preventing catastrophic morale loss.
2) Abaddons other big buff is full rerolls of failed hits to black legion units. This is why he is often seen surrounded by big 40-model squads of cultists. 40 cultists with hit rerolls and fearless that are continuously recycled with the Tide of Traitors stratagem is pretty effective. But your list makes no use of that buff, even though you have 20 cultists in another detachment.
That could be a second wave. As stated the rest of the list is subjective.
3) Abaddon grants 2 CP if he is your warlord, but by taking the Dark Matter Crystal he cannot be your warlord. Without those two CP's (that you have paid for but forfeited) your list will have 6 CPs (a patrol detachment grants no CP's), of which you will use 3 for deep striking. That means you will have 3 CP's for the entire game, which I think is a bit on the low side. Why not just take a cheap abaddon-less batallion and use two of the CP's to autopass morale if necessary?
Tzaangors aren't there for deepstriking, but rather a run in for wave 2, which could be BL cultists instead. 2CP auto-pass is fine, but i'd worry about the next turn. It's not always necessary.
4) By positioning Abaddon so he can do heroic intervention, I am assuming that it is part of your plan that your Rubrics will get charged? Is that wise?
Not a plan, but another part of turning the calculus away from taking certain actions against the unit. He's damn good in melee and as the unit walks in he'll be free to run and cause his own havoc.
So there is a local tourney this weekend that I am thinking of going to. 1500 pts. This is what I am thinking list wise. I am trying to keep it as close to WYSIWYG as possible, hence a few cultists having special weapons because that's what they have not because that's what I want.
Plan is I expect to go 2nd, but with this setup I get 9 CP, hoping that makes a big difference.
+ HQ +
Ahriman: Glamour of Tzeentch, Prescience, Temporal Manipulation
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Dark Matter Crystal, Flickering Flames, Gaze of Fate, Malefic talon, Wings
Sorcerer: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Infernal Gaze, Tzeentch's Firestorm
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: 6. High Magister, Death Hex, Familiar, Force sword, Helm of the Third Eye, Inferno Combi-bolter, Warlord, Weaver of Fates
Azuza001 wrote: So there is a local tourney this weekend that I am thinking of going to. 1500 pts. This is what I am thinking list wise. I am trying to keep it as close to WYSIWYG as possible, hence a few cultists having special weapons because that's what they have not because that's what I want.
Plan is I expect to go 2nd, but with this setup I get 9 CP, hoping that makes a big difference.
+ HQ +
Ahriman: Glamour of Tzeentch, Prescience, Temporal Manipulation
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Dark Matter Crystal, Flickering Flames, Gaze of Fate, Malefic talon, Wings
Sorcerer: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Infernal Gaze, Tzeentch's Firestorm
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: 6. High Magister, Death Hex, Familiar, Force sword, Helm of the Third Eye, Inferno Combi-bolter, Warlord, Weaver of Fates
I like your list. It looks fluffy and might actually prove effective in a local tournament. Looking forward for your report on how it went.
Still, the more I look at it the more I think that 5 men rubric squads are a strange thing. Without the soulreaper they don't really pack any pucnch. Sure 9cp sounds good, but what can they actually do usefull?
Yeah, I see where you are coming from. I plan on using then as harassment units, working together on single targets. I lose a cannon and a bolter this way but gain 3 cp, I am hoping that's going to make up for the loss. Also I can use them as extra screeners for protection from alpha strikes, or objective holders. Finally I am hoping they get ignored a bit and can be used as a way to finish other squads off.
Still, alternately, I could turn them into 2 squads of 10, 1 squad of cultists, drop the extra sorcerer, and take a helldrake. I lose 3 cp's, but get a he'll turkey. Options :p
Azuza001 wrote: Yeah, I see where you are coming from. I plan on using then as harassment units, working together on single targets. I lose a cannon and a bolter this way but gain 3 cp, I am hoping that's going to make up for the loss. Also I can use them as extra screeners for protection from alpha strikes, or objective holders. Finally I am hoping they get ignored a bit and can be used as a way to finish other squads off.
Still, alternately, I could turn them into 2 squads of 10, 1 squad of cultists, drop the extra sorcerer, and take a helldrake. I lose 3 cp's, but get a he'll turkey. Options :p
if it were me here, I'd take the turkey. You haven't got a ton of CP hoovers in your list (just the defiler really) and the drake is going to be a valuable supplement to your alpha strike and a distraction carnifex to protect your shooty gunline. (I am assuming the plan here is to crystal in the 10x rubrics? I'm not clear what the crystal is buying you in this list tbh)
The way I envision this list working is, DP deploys up aggressively screened by some cultists so he doesn't get shot, crystals in the 10x rubrics, Warptimes himself up the board, Termie sorc drops in to support the rubrics/aid the alpha, Heldrake moves up to support that action, and you've got a solid armored core of units in the enemy's face turn 1.
The rest of the army gets down to business doing their gunline thing. Ahriman buffs up the two shooty daemon engines, 5x rubrics act as supplementary psyker support (I'd have them casting Boon on Ahriman to try and get him the extra +1 to cast and the other squad casting Temporal to heal up any wounded daemon engines) and cultists screen.
Sounds solid to me. Doesn't seem like it'd overly hate going second except you'd likely lose a daemon engine and a half-ish in the vs gunline matchup (heldrake would be useful here as well as an immediate threat).
Azuza001 wrote: So there is a local tourney this weekend that I am thinking of going to. 1500 pts. This is what I am thinking list wise. I am trying to keep it as close to WYSIWYG as possible, hence a few cultists having special weapons because that's what they have not because that's what I want.
Plan is I expect to go 2nd, but with this setup I get 9 CP, hoping that makes a big difference.
+ HQ +
Ahriman: Glamour of Tzeentch, Prescience, Temporal Manipulation
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Dark Matter Crystal, Flickering Flames, Gaze of Fate, Malefic talon, Wings
Sorcerer: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Infernal Gaze, Tzeentch's Firestorm
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: 6. High Magister, Death Hex, Familiar, Force sword, Helm of the Third Eye, Inferno Combi-bolter, Warlord, Weaver of Fates
I overall like this list. It's similar to what I'm building towards, though at 2k I run three 9 man Rubric squads and an two Daemon Princes.
It seems much of the current 40k conversation is about how to build and support the best "bomb" your codex can put forth, but I just don't feel like playing that way. For starters, if everyone seems to be doing it, everyone will be building lists with the ability to counter it. Everyone is learning to set up screens...everyone tries their best to protect their important units from an opponents "bomb" unit. As a personal anecdote, I find that I have just as much (and often times more) success when I start my large Death Company squad and supporting characters on the table rather than in reserves looking for the alpha deep strike. Being able to hold down an area, be a deterrent and or / counterpunch has really proven effective when someone is planning to, for example, shove Mortarion down my throat.
As for the benefits of having command points without a bomb unit to spend them on...there's still a lot of goodness to be had! For example:
- I plan to upgrade a Helbrute's twin heavy bolters with the Inferno Bolts stratagem.
- Cabalistic Focus WILL be used each and ever psychic phase to make sure I get off...whatever I decide needs getting off!
- Daemonforge is great, and the fact I'm fielding both a Forgefiend and Maulerfiend means I can (and probably will) use it TWICE each turn.
- Coruscating Beam is there....probably still won't ever use it, but it's there!
Azuza001 wrote: So there is a local tourney this weekend that I am thinking of going to. 1500 pts. This is what I am thinking list wise. I am trying to keep it as close to WYSIWYG as possible, hence a few cultists having special weapons because that's what they have not because that's what I want.
Plan is I expect to go 2nd, but with this setup I get 9 CP, hoping that makes a big difference.
+ HQ +
Ahriman: Glamour of Tzeentch, Prescience, Temporal Manipulation
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Dark Matter Crystal, Flickering Flames, Gaze of Fate, Malefic talon, Wings
Sorcerer: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Infernal Gaze, Tzeentch's Firestorm
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: 6. High Magister, Death Hex, Familiar, Force sword, Helm of the Third Eye, Inferno Combi-bolter, Warlord, Weaver of Fates
I overall like this list. It's similar to what I'm building towards, though at 2k I run three 9 man Rubric squads and an two Daemon Princes.
It seems much of the current 40k conversation is about how to build and support the best "bomb" your codex can put forth, but I just don't feel like playing that way. For starters, if everyone seems to be doing it, everyone will be building lists with the ability to counter it. Everyone is learning to set up screens...everyone tries their best to protect their important units from an opponents "bomb" unit. As a personal anecdote, I find that I have just as much (and often times more) success when I start my large Death Company squad and supporting characters on the table rather than in reserves looking for the alpha deep strike. Being able to hold down an area, be a deterrent and or / counterpunch has really proven effective when someone is planning to, for example, shove Mortarion down my throat.
As for the benefits of having command points without a bomb unit to spend them on...there's still a lot of goodness to be had! For example:
- I plan to upgrade a Helbrute's twin heavy bolters with the Inferno Bolts stratagem.
- Cabalistic Focus WILL be used each and ever psychic phase to make sure I get off...whatever I decide needs getting off!
- Daemonforge is great, and the fact I'm fielding both a Forgefiend and Maulerfiend means I can (and probably will) use it TWICE each turn.
- Coruscating Beam is there....probably still won't ever use it, but it's there!
Out of breaktime...gotta run.
I don't necessarily think you have to use a "bomb" to get actual murdering work done, but I also think it's a waste of one of the most reliable deep strikes in the game to not send something into the enemy's face turn 1. Sure, they can screen, but I find most screens tend to leave a 4" gap between the important units and the chaffline to prevent piling in and because at a certain point you do need to have some board presence with your actual army. With Warptime, it's usually possible to clear some of the screen with shooting and charge past them, into the enemy's more valuable stuff to tie it up.
I cant tell you how many games would have gone way worse for me if I hadn't not gotten shot by a couple onagers or 3 basilisks turn 1 because my Tzaangors had successfully piled their way into them. You can do the same thing with scarabs or cultists or a heldrake if you like, but more than trying to win the game outright with it you should be trying to start the fight on your terms.
My Tzaangors have a 1 turn lifespan and that's generally how I factor for them. They exist to give me a turn or 2 holding the enemy down while the gunline hits them.
The more I think about it the more I like the idea of helldrake / defiler / forgefiend. It may be a bit heavy on deamon vehicles and limit me to 6 cp, but it also has a lot of potential to cause Havoc in its own right.
Alternative list
+ HQ +
Ahriman: Glamour of Tzeentch, Prescience, Temporal Manipulation
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Dark Matter Crystal, Flickering Flames, Gaze of Fate, Malefic talon, Wings
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: 6. High Magister, Death Hex, Familiar, Force sword, Helm of the Third Eye, Inferno Combi-bolter, Warlord, Weaver of Fates
I also wanted to run a Defiler, but after a week of looking at pics and paintjobs, I found that I have no interest at all to purchase / paint that model and have found new respect for the good ol' Heldrake.
They're obviously two totally different animals, so it's not as if one easily replaces the other, but I look forward to painting and learning to play with the Heldrake.
Voidwraith wrote: I also wanted to run a Defiler, but after a week of looking at pics and paintjobs, I found that I have no interest at all to purchase / paint that model and have found new respect for the good ol' Heldrake.
They're obviously two totally different animals, so it's not as if one easily replaces the other, but I look forward to painting and learning to play with the Heldrake.
GW, please give us a better Defiler model!
I think the upcoming Knight Armiger represents a great chance to kitbash a much cooler Defiler. You could shoulder mount the BC like an old school Battletech Mech and convert the rest of the weapons onto the arms. Add chaos bits and greenstuff to flavour and I think it will look awesome. That's my current plan for a Defiler anyway, I also can't stand the current model.
Voidwraith wrote: I also wanted to run a Defiler, but after a week of looking at pics and paintjobs, I found that I have no interest at all to purchase / paint that model and have found new respect for the good ol' Heldrake.
They're obviously two totally different animals, so it's not as if one easily replaces the other, but I look forward to painting and learning to play with the Heldrake.
GW, please give us a better Defiler model!
Bwa ha ha, I just finished my own defiler and spent the entire time reveling in how deliciously goofy it is. I love the dumpsterclaws and the silly scourge bit. But I suppose that's me, with my weird love and appreciation for any kind of art where someone really, honestly tried their hardest to do something and ended up failing spectacularly. I love crappy B movies and MST3k type stuff, and I love the sheer silliness of some sculptor imagining that the defiler would be somehow "menacing" if he just slapped big steaknives all over it and weird grimacing daemon faces.
If you haven't, try looking at one without the tiny little baby head on top. Then focus on the chest face make it more prominent with the paint job, it looks less doofy.
SilverAlien wrote: If you haven't, try looking at one without the tiny little baby head on top. Then focus on the chest face make it more prominent with the paint job, it looks less doofy.
Oh yeah, I just took that weird top mask off mine, and left it as a little robot nubbin' so it looks like a camera. I also left the big daemon face on the front off, since I figured it'd be easier to make it merge with the rest of my thousand sons without it.
Voidwraith wrote: I also wanted to run a Defiler, but after a week of looking at pics and paintjobs, I found that I have no interest at all to purchase / paint that model and have found new respect for the good ol' Heldrake.
They're obviously two totally different animals, so it's not as if one easily replaces the other, but I look forward to painting and learning to play with the Heldrake.
GW, please give us a better Defiler model!
Bwa ha ha, I just finished my own defiler and spent the entire time reveling in how deliciously goofy it is. I love the dumpsterclaws and the silly scourge bit. But I suppose that's me, with my weird love and appreciation for any kind of art where someone really, honestly tried their hardest to do something and ended up failing spectacularly. I love crappy B movies and MST3k type stuff, and I love the sheer silliness of some sculptor imagining that the defiler would be somehow "menacing" if he just slapped big steaknives all over it and weird grimacing daemon faces.
Giant Enemy Crab for life!
This comment has made me take a long look in the mirror, and...well, I guess I've become somewhat of a model snob. It shouldn't have been a surprise, as Thousand Sons will be my first ever Chaos faction and it's largely because the handful of TS specific models are just freakin' amazing.
I'll seek therapy and strive to stop looking down my nose at older more goofy models.
Voidwraith wrote: I also wanted to run a Defiler, but after a week of looking at pics and paintjobs, I found that I have no interest at all to purchase / paint that model and have found new respect for the good ol' Heldrake.
They're obviously two totally different animals, so it's not as if one easily replaces the other, but I look forward to painting and learning to play with the Heldrake.
GW, please give us a better Defiler model!
Bwa ha ha, I just finished my own defiler and spent the entire time reveling in how deliciously goofy it is. I love the dumpsterclaws and the silly scourge bit. But I suppose that's me, with my weird love and appreciation for any kind of art where someone really, honestly tried their hardest to do something and ended up failing spectacularly. I love crappy B movies and MST3k type stuff, and I love the sheer silliness of some sculptor imagining that the defiler would be somehow "menacing" if he just slapped big steaknives all over it and weird grimacing daemon faces.
Giant Enemy Crab for life!
This comment has made me take a long look in the mirror, and...well, I guess I've become somewhat of a model snob. It shouldn't have been a surprise, as Thousand Sons will be my first ever Chaos faction and it's largely because the handful of TS specific models are just freakin' amazing.
I'll seek therapy and strive to stop looking down my nose at older more goofy models.
Rubrics, Exalteds, Scarabs all look super great. Personally I really like Tzaangors also, allthough I like them
better with pistols and chainswords which isn't such a great option game-wise. I am not such a big fan of the floating discs either, but the defiler is much worse.
Haha, those are hilarious. They remind me of the old Tyranid range which is a sight to behold on a gaming table. The 2nd edition Ork Range certainly had its charm as well.
Flamers have probably undergone more changes than any unit i know of aesthetically.
First, they were mushroom headed creatures that looked like some kind of old my Little pony villain from back when the ponies were all obese and on weird sedatives.
Then, someone said "no, we need something more menacing. Nothing screams "flame creature" like a bird muppet with doggie chew toy hands"
Then they went full on-the-nose with them and made them entirely on fire.
Then they changed to a design similar to tje current one which is more like a sock puppet with a little bit of fire, but with gums on the mouths drawing attention to that and away from the fire.
Finally we got the plastic kit, the hotly anticipated "piece de resistance" of the sock puppet wizard sleeve facemonster, with advanced CAD design in service of free floating tentacle fandanglers, a truly premium experience for the connoisseur of flamers on the cutting edge of customizability. Provided of course you wanted a weirdly ripped hunchbacked fire spraying mouth critter.
So think of that next time you look at a flamer. That's not just one guys bad design. That's a technological perfection of an homage of an improvement of a re-imagining of someone's bad design.
On an unrelated note, who's excited to go see Disney's Joss Whedon's Star Wars: 2 Hutt 2 Slugrious, a Star Wars Story, the Jabba The Hurt Standalone Reboot?
I started a thread in painting and modelling to discuss alternate figs and kitbashed for the Defiler. It'll save us model snobs from cluttering up the tactics thread.
I think the Heldrake is a great harasser/character hunter. The only times I've regretted bringing one is when I misplay it. Locking down a unit in CC to shut them down for a turn can be really handy, plus it drops scouts/rangers really well with the baleflamer.
It wont devastate a list single handedly like in 6th, but it can be a real pain in the butt for opponents.
Swiftblade wrote: I think the Heldrake is a great harasser/character hunter. The only times I've regretted bringing one is when I misplay it. Locking down a unit in CC to shut them down for a turn can be really handy, plus it drops scouts/rangers really well with the baleflamer.
It wont devastate a list single handedly like in 6th, but it can be a real pain in the butt for opponents.
Agreed! Last game I played with my helldrake it killed a trygon prime one-on-one and finished off the Swarmlord in close combat, these guys are terrific harassment units that can move fast enough and hit hard enough that if an opportunity does present itself then it can get there and make the difference between a critical win or loss.
Baleflamers are just terrific. Str 6, -2 Ap, 2 dmg? At 18"? Heck yes. Go ahead and charge me. Or don't. Or I will charge you, then after back out and touch you again.
They wont do a lot vs swarms of units but against t6 or less multi wound units can get hurt hard.
Swiftblade wrote: I think the Heldrake is a great harasser/character hunter. The only times I've regretted bringing one is when I misplay it. Locking down a unit in CC to shut them down for a turn can be really handy, plus it drops scouts/rangers really well with the baleflamer.
It wont devastate a list single handedly like in 6th, but it can be a real pain in the butt for opponents.
Agreed! Last game I played with my helldrake it killed a trygon prime one-on-one and finished off the Swarmlord in close combat, these guys are terrific harassment units that can move fast enough and hit hard enough that if an opportunity does present itself then it can get there and make the difference between a critical win or loss.
Baleflamers are just terrific. Str 6, -2 Ap, 2 dmg? At 18"? Heck yes. Go ahead and charge me. Or don't. Or I will charge you, then after back out and touch you again.
They wont do a lot vs swarms of units but against t6 or less multi wound units can get hurt hard.
Exactly...I haven't used one yet, but after totally ignoring it for a good while, I finally realized "this thing moves 30 inches." It feels a tad expensive, but it can basically be anywhere you need something to be, and movement as the game goes on is priceless.
He pairs well with the big boy Magnus, if you have points to spare. If Magnus warptimes himself they'll both get around the same distance up the board, and Heldrake can lock up threats to the big guy while Magnus smashes everything.
I will say it's tricky to use, if it gets misplayed it's gonna do very little in a game. So it won't work in every situation or against every list.
Can the warpflame stratagem affect heldrakes? Im not looking at my Codex and can't remember.
Swiftblade wrote: He pairs well with the big boy Magnus, if you have points to spare. If Magnus warptimes himself they'll both get around the same distance up the board, and Heldrake can lock up threats to the big guy while Magnus smashes everything.
I will say it's tricky to use, if it gets misplayed it's gonna do very little in a game. So it won't work in every situation or against every list.
Can the warpflame stratagem affect heldrakes? Im not looking at my Codex and can't remember.
No, for reasons that I found pretty obvious (unlike why Helbrutes aren't allowed to use that, lol).
Defiler/Maulerfiend are still the king kahunas of warpflame gargoyles. 3" goes a long way when you have a big giant glorious crab body to measure from.
Now we just need someone to start sweeping the tournament circuit with defilers with their legs modeled completely splayed out for maximum 'goylage.
hm.. maybe I'd give it a go. I also had an idea of casting diabolic str on a heldrake as he passes by a deep striking terminator sorc. 5 attacks with str 9 look much better to me
Interesting! I think diabolical st pairs exceptionally well with maulerfeinds which is my usual target as well as the daemon engine stratagem. Haven’t thought to use it on the heldrake!
Plus there is always Temporal Manipulation, get another d3 heals on it. I have had mine down to 2 wounds before and it still ends the game at 7 after it gets a heal cast on it and natural healing.
Honestly I don't think a single flamer or the chicken's claws are good enough for the opponent to fear it. It's basically a 180ish pt unit with a purpose of a first turn charge and locking something down. Is this good enough to justify its points cost? Maybe. But if so, I don't think we should be spending more resources on it. It's not going to win games, and there are much more important units which need the stratagem and psychic support.
On a best case scenario for a charging helldrake with both diabolical strength and daemonforge, we get 5 rerollable attacks at str 9, which is great, but then at -1 ap and d3 wounds which is really lackluster. Best case for the helldrake, it gets hits and wounds with all its attacks against a serious 3+ target. Then the enemy saves half of those and still gets to suffer 2d3 damage or so. And that's after buffing and spending CP's on your 180 pt unit.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Honestly I don't think a single flamer or the chicken's claws are good enough for the opponent to fear it. It's basically a 180ish pt unit with a purpose of a first turn charge and locking something down. Is this good enough to justify its points cost? Maybe. But if so, I don't think we should be spending more resources on it. It's not going to win games, and there are much more important units which need the stratagem and psychic support.
On a best case scenario for a charging helldrake with both diabolical strength and daemonforge, we get 5 rerollable attacks at str 9, which is great, but then at -1 ap and d3 wounds which is really lackluster. Best case for the helldrake, it gets hits and wounds with all its attacks against a serious 3+ target. Then the enemy saves half of those and still gets to suffer 2d3 damage or so. And that's after buffing and spending CP's on your 180 pt unit.
Me no like lemonade.
Yeah, the drake is gonna be primarily support for a deep striking posse, either helping a unit of tzaangors chew through a crunchier section of the enemy's front line, or supporting or distracting for a unit of SOTs that you don't want to get focused on.
its primary strength is how good it is at distracting because if the enemy leaves it at even a single wound, it still shoots the baleflamer at full effectiveness. I view it the same way I view my Hellhound for my IG, just with the added bonus that it moves a squillion inches and has some kind of melee attack.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Honestly I don't think a single flamer or the chicken's claws are good enough for the opponent to fear it. It's basically a 180ish pt unit with a purpose of a first turn charge and locking something down. Is this good enough to justify its points cost? Maybe. But if so, I don't think we should be spending more resources on it. It's not going to win games, and there are much more important units which need the stratagem and psychic support.
On a best case scenario for a charging helldrake with both diabolical strength and daemonforge, we get 5 rerollable attacks at str 9, which is great, but then at -1 ap and d3 wounds which is really lackluster. Best case for the helldrake, it gets hits and wounds with all its attacks against a serious 3+ target. Then the enemy saves half of those and still gets to suffer 2d3 damage or so. And that's after buffing and spending CP's on your 180 pt unit.
Me no like lemonade.
I agree with everything you said here, apart from the "it's not going to win games" part. A unit that can move 30" and has enough firepower and attacks to dig out / harrass objective holders, as well as decent enough durability to force your opponent to prioritize it higher than he'd like to remove it will do A LOT of work towards actually WINNING the game. Especially as the game goes on...if it sticks around and is still moving 20 or 30 inches, it'll be there when it matters...when you suddenly need to get halfway across the board to get that objective card you just drew.
My initial purpose for the Heldrake was to tie up a big expensive unit and force them to fall back. Now most armies have ways around that and a lot of them have naturally built abilities that let them fall back and still shoot or charge...
nintura wrote: My initial purpose for the Heldrake was to tie up a big expensive unit and force them to fall back. Now most armies have ways around that and a lot of them have naturally built abilities that let them fall back and still shoot or charge...
On some units - not all. You just have to be conscious of the targets and if they spend a CP to do that then it's still a win. Ultramarines are a friggin' pain, but then the baleflamer does a number on their Primaris...as long as you're able and willing to reroll the number of shots.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Honestly I don't think a single flamer or the chicken's claws are good enough for the opponent to fear it. It's basically a 180ish pt unit with a purpose of a first turn charge and locking something down. Is this good enough to justify its points cost? Maybe. But if so, I don't think we should be spending more resources on it. It's not going to win games, and there are much more important units which need the stratagem and psychic support.
On a best case scenario for a charging helldrake with both diabolical strength and daemonforge, we get 5 rerollable attacks at str 9, which is great, but then at -1 ap and d3 wounds which is really lackluster. Best case for the helldrake, it gets hits and wounds with all its attacks against a serious 3+ target. Then the enemy saves half of those and still gets to suffer 2d3 damage or so. And that's after buffing and spending CP's on your 180 pt unit.
Me no like lemonade.
I agree with everything you said here, apart from the "it's not going to win games" part. A unit that can move 30" and has enough firepower and attacks to dig out / harrass objective holders, as well as decent enough durability to force your opponent to prioritize it higher than he'd like to remove it will do A LOT of work towards actually WINNING the game. Especially as the game goes on...if it sticks around and is still moving 20 or 30 inches, it'll be there when it matters...when you suddenly need to get halfway across the board to get that objective card you just drew.
It all can't be about alpha strikes...
The Heldrake is a flier, so it can't score objectives.
Lol I love those. Especially the Michael Bay transformer defiler.
On a separate note, the whole flyers can't hold objectives thing, doesnt that stop assault marines with jump packs or deamon princes with wings from holding objectives? Doesn't that seem odd?
On a separate note, the whole flyers can't hold objectives thing, doesnt that stop assault marines with jump packs or deamon princes with wings from holding objectives? Doesn't that seem odd?
Flyers, as in "Flyers", "Troops", "Heavy Support", etc.
Not units with the <Fly> keyword.
Ecdain wrote: What are people's thoughts on mutalith vortex beasts,? I keep going back and forth on them..
They are good. They boost the tzaangors most of all, and since I will not be buying any tzaangors I will not bother with Mutaliths either.
Funny idea:
Step 1. Take two spearheads. Cheap HQ and 6 mutaliths each. You now have 12 mutalith beasts.
Step 2. Advance them up the field.
Step 3. Choose the MW aura power every turn for every one of them. When they start going down enjoy your 18" MW spam.
Step 4. Enjoy your army that kills stuff by just being around.
so, more daemons than sons model-wise, more sons than daemons points-wise. Opponent had 3 biker shield-captains in a supreme command, celestine solo, several flamer immos full of sisters, one rhino with repentia+mistress, 2 canoness, 2 exorcists, 1 penitent engine.We played eternal war supply drop, regular terrain rules.
I got first turn with the +1, dropped tzaangors+sorc down on the far flank with one exorcist and one immolator full of sisters, charged and didn't make it to the exorcist but surrounded the immo. Everything else just tried to shoot pretty ineffectively. I should have taken second turn.
Then everything moved up from the sisters, celestine zipped forwards, engaged the defiler to try and tie it up, and got smushed. regular and hurricane bolters and super flamers basically nuke all the horrors out front.
My turn, I move up to attack the two shield captains who came forward (warlord captain had stayed back with the gunline). Psychic powers from one rubric sorceror and Ahriman take out one (4 sixes from Firestorm) and charging with Ahriman, 2 screamers, and the Fateskimmer takes the other down to 2 wounds. Defiler rolls well with daemonforge and kills an exorcist from 8 wounds left.
All the sisters melee units pile forward, and between two shield captains, celestine, a penitent engine and a bunch of repentia ahriman and the fateskimmer and the screamers are super dead. in the fight phase, my rhino with two wounds left who had charged into the fray to soak the shield captains overwatch did his warpflame gargoyle thing and rolled like a goddamn champion, finishing off the shield captain, taking out some sisters, some repentia, some pink horrors, a flamer, damaging the penitent engine, and then (because we interpreted "all units friend and foe" from the FAQ to include him) killed himself, leaving everything out of melee. And yes we did remember characters and vehicles only get hurt on sixes.
My turn, a rubric squad blows away celestine, defiler kills an immolator, the tzaangors finally finish off their immolator, and the other rubric squad kills the repentia. Game is called there.
I think my takeaway from the game was: 1, I like the defiler a lot, 2, custodes should not be played like commander spam tau, the head honchos just do not seem to have the punch to justify their points.
so, more daemons than sons model-wise, more sons than daemons points-wise. Opponent had 3 biker shield-captains in a supreme command, celestine solo, several flamer immos full of sisters, one rhino with repentia+mistress, 2 canoness, 2 exorcists, 1 penitent engine.We played eternal war supply drop, regular terrain rules.
I got first turn with the +1, dropped tzaangors+sorc down on the far flank with one exorcist and one immolator full of sisters, charged and didn't make it to the exorcist but surrounded the immo. Everything else just tried to shoot pretty ineffectively. I should have taken second turn.
Then everything moved up from the sisters, celestine zipped forwards, engaged the defiler to try and tie it up, and got smushed. regular and hurricane bolters and super flamers basically nuke all the horrors out front.
My turn, I move up to attack the two shield captains who came forward (warlord captain had stayed back with the gunline). Psychic powers from one rubric sorceror and Ahriman take out one (4 sixes from Firestorm) and charging with Ahriman, 2 screamers, and the Fateskimmer takes the other down to 2 wounds. Defiler rolls well with daemonforge and kills an exorcist from 8 wounds left.
All the sisters melee units pile forward, and between two shield captains, celestine, a penitent engine and a bunch of repentia ahriman and the fateskimmer and the screamers are super dead. in the fight phase, my rhino with two wounds left who had charged into the fray to soak the shield captains overwatch did his warpflame gargoyle thing and rolled like a goddamn champion, finishing off the shield captain, taking out some sisters, some repentia, some pink horrors, a flamer, damaging the penitent engine, and then (because we interpreted "all units friend and foe" from the FAQ to include him) killed himself, leaving everything out of melee. And yes we did remember characters and vehicles only get hurt on sixes.
My turn, a rubric squad blows away celestine, defiler kills an immolator, the tzaangors finally finish off their immolator, and the other rubric squad kills the repentia. Game is called there.
I think my takeaway from the game was: 1, I like the defiler a lot, 2, custodes should not be played like commander spam tau, the head honchos just do not seem to have the punch to justify their points.
Sounds like a good game but you interpretation of warp flame gargoyles was wrong. The cigarette says "all other units, friend or foe". That means the rhino does not set it self on fire.
Yeah, defilers are awesome.
@the_scotsman, I was curious to hear if you have tried summoning as opposed to the demon detachment. I remember you posted a week or so ago that you were thinking of it.
Screamers look good on paper, haven't tried them on the tabletop though.
Also I have a strange problem. It seems like the consensus for the best way to run competitive Sons is run a Daemon battalion with a Tsons battalion, but my Meta usually doesn't allow duplicate detachments. So I can only usually take one battalion, and it's been throwing off my list building. Any help on what I should be doing with my lists/list ideas?
Swiftblade wrote: Screamers look good on paper, haven't tried them on the tabletop though.
Also I have a strange problem. It seems like the consensus for the best way to run competitive Sons is run a Daemon battalion with a Tsons battalion, but my Meta usually doesn't allow duplicate detachments. So I can only usually take one battalion, and it's been throwing off my list building. Any help on what I should be doing with my lists/list ideas?
Single detachment? So only way to go above 6 CP is with a brigade? Or can you do multiple detachments as long as they are all TS?
Swiftblade wrote: Screamers look good on paper, haven't tried them on the tabletop though.
Also I have a strange problem. It seems like the consensus for the best way to run competitive Sons is run a Daemon battalion with a Tsons battalion, but my Meta usually doesn't allow duplicate detachments. So I can only usually take one battalion, and it's been throwing off my list building. Any help on what I should be doing with my lists/list ideas?
Single detachment? So only way to go above 6 CP is with a brigade? Or can you do multiple detachments as long as they are all TS?
I can use multiple detachments, but no "repeat" detachments. I.E I can have one battalion detachment, but not two battalions. So I could do like Battalion, Outrider, Vanguard, but not Battalion, Battalion, Vanguard.
Ecdain wrote: What are people's thoughts on mutalith vortex beasts,? I keep going back and forth on them..
I don't run a ton of Tzaangors, but I find the mortal wound bubble to be quite handy. I even want it to be half wounded. 18" on the mortal wounds is just awesome.
Swiftblade wrote: Screamers look good on paper, haven't tried them on the tabletop though.
Also I have a strange problem. It seems like the consensus for the best way to run competitive Sons is run a Daemon battalion with a Tsons battalion, but my Meta usually doesn't allow duplicate detachments. So I can only usually take one battalion, and it's been throwing off my list building. Any help on what I should be doing with my lists/list ideas?
They worked well against the biker captains with the herald because they wounded on 3s rerolling 1s with daemonspark. They had a 3++ save so ap-1 was the only AP value that mattered against them, so the multi damage was helpful I making every wound that got through count.
I use them over enlightened because they cost half as much money to collect and synergize with units I already own rather than new units I'd have to buy and paint.
If you're detachment limited run a daemon vanguard. Regular and exalted flamers are both gold.
Ecdain wrote: What are people's thoughts on mutalith vortex beasts,? I keep going back and forth on them..
I don't run a ton of Tzaangors, but I find the mortal wound bubble to be quite handy. I even want it to be half wounded. 18" on the mortal wounds is just awesome.
Yeah, the 18" range is sweet. I think that if you're taking just one Beast it's a Distraction Carnifex more than anything else. If you want to actually rely on the powers in some way, either the buffs or mortal wounds, I think you need to spam them at least moderately hard. At least three, maybe more, plus some alternate big models to maybe soak some AT fire.
So, I know this was brought up earlier in the thread, without resolution. What do people think of the Chaos Decimator when running with TS? Benefits from the Vehicle and Daemon keywords, Doesn't have Helbrute as a keyword, so it can benefit from Warpflame Gargoyles. Can be tuned for combat, ranged or a mix. Also has access to mortal wound generation through it's Petard Soulburner weapons. All on a base the same size as a Helbrute (60mm).
I have 12 currently, they are very point effective and output alot of damage. Ignoring Toughness is huge, and shamans make them extremely easy to buff without expending any additional resources.
Debating spears still, it sounds like in the right situation they are great, but bows are super useful as a whole so its a tough decision. (6 of mine are built with bows, the other 6 are just bodies on the discs as I really cant decide so I proxied a couple games with what is built) the bows are super useful, but the potential of the spears is huge.
Just finished my tournament. Lost all 3 games with the following list.
Deamon Prince
Sorcerer in term armor
Arhiman
Squad of 10 rubrics with inferno bolters, 1 with Soulreaper
3 X squad of 10 cultists
4 individual chaos spawn
Helldrake w/ bale flamer
forgefiend w/ hades autocannons and jaws
Defiler w/ scourge and twin laz
I lost all 3 games, however the first game came down to a single enemy model left with me charging but we got the rules wrong, I should have been able to pile in so it probably would have been a win.
2nd game we made a different mistake, I could have won but we misunderstood the Victory conditions so eh, no harm.
3rd game came down to a tie, but the to said no ties so if we would have played another round I would have lost easy so I gave the win to my opponent.
In the end things I found.
Positive : Rubrics are very effective when used well. 1st game they held 2 custodies hq's on bikes up for 2 turns. 2nd they wiped some tau guys with marker lights out and really helped my cause. 3rd game they deep strike in and really gave me the lead early on objective holding.
Positive : Defiler is a champion as always. Love him so much, was an incredible pain for my opponent on all 3 games. Killed so much and would not die.
Negative : Forgefiend didn't do much. Neither did helldrake.
Negative : taking 4 spawn as individuals was bad, same with cultists. It was just giving points to my opponents. However the spawn seem to draw an incredible amount of fire and fear so a squad of 4 or 5 would be awesome.
^ Too bad on the losses, but my first reaction is "where is your army?" For a 1500 pts list (I assume?) it seems incredibly small.
The bulk of your army seems to be 30 cultists and 10 rubrics, supported by some characters, a heldrake (crap), a hades-fiend (crap) and a defiler (OK with buffs.)
Not sure what the point of the TA Sorcerer is either. You don't really have anything in Webway Infiltration/Deepstrike that needs Warptime.
I do recommend one big unit of Spawns over several lone Spawns as well.
Yeah I realized by the 2nd game I actually didn't have much going for me if I lost the Drake and the forgefiend.
Sorcerer was ment for getting death hex off if I needed to, with its 2+ thanks to familiar and high Magister, and the stratagem for another 2+ if a mortarion or magnus, or anything that used invulnerable as its main protection showed up drop him and rubrics down in double tap range, dark crystal they dp in to get the required psychers, then remove invulnerable and hit with thousand sons w/ vets stratagem. Turned out I was so focused trying to get protection and cover from this or that I didn't bring enough to do real damage lol.
I have been retooling my list since the tournament and I have already removed the helldrake from the list. I learned a lot today about the Tsons, and am hoping to work on a better one for next tournament.
MinscS2 wrote: ^ Too bad on the losses, but my first reaction is "where is your army?" For a 1500 pts list (I assume?) it seems incredibly small.
The bulk of your army seems to be 30 cultists and 10 rubrics, supported by some characters, a heldrake (crap), a hades-fiend (crap) and a defiler (OK with buffs.)
Not sure what the point of the TA Sorcerer is either. You don't really have anything in Webway Infiltration/Deepstrike that needs Warptime.
I do recommend one big unit of Spawns over several lone Spawns as well.
Now I do think it's unfair to say the Heldrake is crap, it's done a bunch of work for me in some games. But I do agree it's not good in this particular list.
I'd drop the Heldrake and the Forgefiend and add some Helbrutes if you're worried about anti-armor and a Tzaangor bomb maybe? Fiend+drake will run closer to 400 points, a pair of Tankbuster brutes will run a bit closer to 300. Heck you could even just not run brutes at all and have that mob of Tzaangors be an anti-armor force, they'll poke a baneblade to death with the right buffs and stratagems.
This leaves me at 1451, so I still have some room to mess with stuff. Idea is defiler and Ahriman and changeling hang out in back being screened by brimstone horrors. Rubrics drop in, deamon prince either dark crystal forward or warp times to rubrics. Horrors drop in with changecaster, and between the horrors and rubrics they clear chaff so deamon prince can hit something hard. Second dp could move up on its own or act as counter assault unit. Cultists hold objectives.
Second option.
Hq -
Arhiman w/ prescience, Temporal manipulation, glamor of tzeench
Deamon prince w/ dark matter crystal, warp time, deamon strength, talons, warlord trait : otherworldly presence
Deamon prince w/ helm of 3rd eye, Wings, gaze of fate, Flickering flames, talons
Troops -
Cultist squad - 18 men w/ autoguns
Rubric Squad - 9 men w/ inferno bolters, asp sorcerer w/ weaver of fate
Rubric Squad - 9 men w/ inferno bolters, asp sorcerer w/ weaver of fate
This list is 1500, it's more straight forward. Rubrics in rhinos to get them into a forward firing position. Deamon princes move up with them. Forgefiend also moves with them 1st Turn to get into fire position, defiler sits with Ahriman and hits enemy from distance with cultists working as screen.
I would appreciate any input on which you guys think would work better, or if I am simply barking up wrong tree.
I hate the ecto cannons on the forgefiend personally. And the forgefiend in general tbh. Defiler just seems to do his job a million times better, if i were running a fiend it'd be a mauler with tendrils.
Also, I think you're discounting the offensive powers. I've run Gift of Chaos on Ahriman whenever I've run up against a T3 army and it invariably explodes something. It's the perfect use for a Gaze reroll and can be used to nuke a squad or a character singlehandedly. The range increase up to 12 really helps it out. I'd take an offensive power over Temporal on ahriman every day.
I normally run ahriman as a repair and protect unit, his job is to make sure the defiler can do his and help heal anyone who perils. I seem to like to roll double 6's on smite a lot, so it's a good kind of pain, but I still don't like my guys blowing up. If I was going to replace a spell it would probably be glamor of tzeench or smite by command point.
However you do bring up a good point. The thoughts of Ahriman on disk flying up with 3++ save and 3 offensive powers seems very tempting. Hmmmmmm but I still want someone to hang with deffy and cast on him. And deamon prince is already filled with spells. Unless I just use deamonforge and say he is good enough....
the_scotsman wrote: I hate the ecto cannons on the forgefiend personally. And the forgefiend in general tbh. Defiler just seems to do his job a million times better, if i were running a fiend it'd be a mauler with tendrils.
Also, I think you're discounting the offensive powers. I've run Gift of Chaos on Ahriman whenever I've run up against a T3 army and it invariably explodes something. It's the perfect use for a Gaze reroll and can be used to nuke a squad or a character singlehandedly. The range increase up to 12 really helps it out. I'd take an offensive power over Temporal on ahriman every day.
Yea the ecto cannons are absurdly priced. 26 points...1 point cheaper than a Multi-Melta.
...wait MM are 27 points in our book...
Ditto on Gift. I used it against Guard this weekend. The mortal wound spill over is glorious.
the_scotsman wrote: I hate the ecto cannons on the forgefiend personally. And the forgefiend in general tbh. Defiler just seems to do his job a million times better, if i were running a fiend it'd be a mauler with tendrils.
Also, I think you're discounting the offensive powers. I've run Gift of Chaos on Ahriman whenever I've run up against a T3 army and it invariably explodes something. It's the perfect use for a Gaze reroll and can be used to nuke a squad or a character singlehandedly. The range increase up to 12 really helps it out. I'd take an offensive power over Temporal on ahriman every day.
Yea the ecto cannons are absurdly priced. 26 points...1 point cheaper than a Multi-Melta.
...wait MM are 27 points in our book...
Ditto on Gift. I used it against Guard this weekend. The mortal wound spill over is glorious.
Problem is, there are so many buffs we just need to take. Weaver of fates, Glamour of tzeentch, prescience, flickering flames, temporal mastery, warpspeed, death hex, gaze of fate. All of them are solid spells which act as force multiplier to our army. I just can't find any space for offensive spells on the main casters. I sometimes give the big offensive spells to the aspiring sorcerers, because it doesn't make sense to smite with them.
Well, that's where we differ from other armies. We don't have a lot of native force multipliers (Primarch of the Thousand Sons and Lord of the Thousand Sons), so we make up for it in spells. A lot of spells.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: Sometimes i feel that this buffs are cool but i need to kill something in Psychic phase, not just buff...
It used to be my favorite thing in the previous edition. With dual DP's and all the pyro and other spells. Large auras with 2d6str 4 hits taken on everyone, psychic screams, blasts and templates. Awesome fun. I even played the damn artifact that made yourself explode if you failed a test. But for some weird reason, GW seems to have abandoned standard damage spells with str values. Now it's all d3 MW's and because of that the spells are stupidly expensive to cast. A freaking Hive tyrant can have a more effective psychic dakka phase than us with its 2 damage spells on a 5+ :( I really think most of the damaging spells are seriously overcosted. And I suspect the whole Thousand Sons lore casting values were calculated with the thought that we do get bonuses to cast already in mind. Which ironically cancels the bonus that our characters get bonuses to cast.
Problem is, there are so many buffs we just need to take. Weaver of fates, Glamour of tzeentch, prescience, flickering flames, temporal mastery, warpspeed, death hex, gaze of fate. All of them are solid spells which act as force multiplier to our army. I just can't find any space for offensive spells on the main casters. I sometimes give the big offensive spells to the aspiring sorcerers, because it doesn't make sense to smite with them.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: Sometimes i feel that this buffs are cool but i need to kill something in Psychic phase, not just buff...
It used to be my favorite thing in the previous edition. With dual DP's and all the pyro and other spells. Large auras with 2d6str 4 hits taken on everyone, psychic screams, blasts and templates. Awesome fun. I even played the damn artifact that made yourself explode if you failed a test. But for some weird reason, GW seems to have abandoned standard damage spells with str values. Now it's all d3 MW's and because of that the spells are stupidly expensive to cast. A freaking Hive tyrant can have a more effective psychic dakka phase than us with its 2 damage spells on a 5+ :( I really think most of the damaging spells are seriously overcosted. And I suspect the whole Thousand Sons lore casting values were calculated with the thought that we do get bonuses to cast already in mind. Which ironically cancels the bonus that our characters get bonuses to cast.
Are you referring to Psychic Scream and Smite, then? Because there is only the one offensive power in the tyranid power list. We have access to Firestorm, Doombolt, Gaze, Gift, Bolt and Gateway, on top of Smite. 5 of them are 24" range on Tson casters, and 4 of them are pick targets rather than nearest.
In a recent game of mine I was up against an MSU sisters list, with lots of Canonesses, Imagifiers, etc sharing transports with 5-woman squads in immolators and rhinos, and I ended up taking Firestorm on an AS, Gateway on a prince with the +1 cast trait, Gift and Doombolt on Ahriman, and Gaze of Destruction on my terminator sorceror. Every major psyker in the army had the option to spend their whole turn going full psy-dakka, and I still had the space to have Warptime, Gaze of Fate, Diabolic Strength, Boon of Mutation, Weaver of Fates, Glamor of Tzeentch, and Prescience on the board.
probably not 100% optimal, but I was still throwing out buckets of mortal wounds on characters, and Gift just nuked someone from orbit 3 turns in a row.
I am. Looks strange, I know, but a flyrant has several advantages. First and foremost, no matter how many spells do we have available, our DP will only cast two of those. And since they all do some sort of d3 mortal wounds, they're basically the same. Only a flyrant can cast two of those on a 5+. For us we can have smite but then we need to move to a 7+ for the next cheaper one?
Additionally, it feels to me that a flyrant is a more flexible platform than a DP. A flyrant can Deep strike within double spell range, but a DP needs to have troops cover due to low wound count and character. So it's more possible that a flyrant will ignore the "hit closest target" part of Smite than a DP can, due to it being able to move ahead of its army.
Finally, I have this feeling that a DP is counter intuitive in its use if we discuss offensive spells. It gets +6" range which suggests he wants to be blasting stuff from range, but he has no ranged weapons to double down on that and it pays for stats that really scream "get me into hth asap!". A flyrant on the other side can get 24 shots @ str 6, conveniently at the same range as the smite and the scream and it can -given the correct hive fleet of course- flee combat and start blasting again. Not to mention his shadow in the warp which helps ensure that his spells don't get denied. It just seems to me like a Hive tyrant with wings was better thought of as a potential psychic dakka platform than a DP is. DP looks kinda awkward to put witchfires on, that's all.
Of course if you look at it army wise, we have way more offensive casting capabilities, this is not up for debate.
I think any successful tson army is going to need 2 things.
1. An ability to remove the chaff so our mortal wounds can start hitting the real meat of the enemy.
2. Chaff of our own to protect our characters so they can blast away with their powers.
A normal hq of Ahriman dp and term sorceror are about 450 points. They can easily annihilate their points worth in elite infantry such as terminators and custodes, but are wasted if their powers are targeting anything worth less than 20 points
topaxygouroun i wrote: I am. Looks strange, I know, but a flyrant has several advantages. First and foremost, no matter how many spells do we have available, our DP will only cast two of those. And since they all do some sort of d3 mortal wounds, they're basically the same. Only a flyrant can cast two of those on a 5+. For us we can have smite but then we need to move to a 7+ for the next cheaper one?
Additionally, it feels to me that a flyrant is a more flexible platform than a DP. A flyrant can Deep strike within double spell range, but a DP needs to have troops cover due to low wound count and character. So it's more possible that a flyrant will ignore the "hit closest target" part of Smite than a DP can, due to it being able to move ahead of its army.
Finally, I have this feeling that a DP is counter intuitive in its use if we discuss offensive spells. It gets +6" range which suggests he wants to be blasting stuff from range, but he has no ranged weapons to double down on that and it pays for stats that really scream "get me into hth asap!". A flyrant on the other side can get 24 shots @ str 6, conveniently at the same range as the smite and the scream and it can -given the correct hive fleet of course- flee combat and start blasting again. Not to mention his shadow in the warp which helps ensure that his spells don't get denied. It just seems to me like a Hive tyrant with wings was better thought of as a potential psychic dakka platform than a DP is. DP looks kinda awkward to put witchfires on, that's all.
Of course if you look at it army wise, we have way more offensive casting capabilities, this is not up for debate.
DP's melee-ness does not deter me from using offensive powers. In fact, it makes him among the best platforms in the game to use Infernal Gateway on, because he's so likely to be able to position himself in that 3.01" sweet spot closest to a model that will pop to other units.
Infernal Gaze (sorry, had the name wrong) is only WC5, if you want two easy to cast powers. Gateway is 8 (7 if your prince has the +1 cast warlord trait, which I'll generally take on him if I want to give him Gateway instead of just sticking with the basic Gaze of Fate+Diabolic) but has a much higher reward - D3/D6 damage to closest model and all units within 3" of that model, rather than just a single D3/D6 to the closest model.
Also, bear in mind that there is nothing stopping you from using psychic powers freely while engaged in melee. It just usually dictates who your closest model is, because you're probably base to base with something. I've even dropped a couple highly effective Gateways while I was base to base with an enemy vehicle in the middle of a big scrum. D3 damage to myself was a small price to pay for hitting absolutely every enemy unit surrounding a Baneblade.
I do agree that DPs are not our best witchfire slingers. they're just our best users of the big high-risk-high-reward witchfire spell, because they want to be in close and they have access to the daemon table. Unless you're running Magnus, that is, he loves Gateway with that +2 to cast. Ahriman or the termie sorc are probably our best witchfire casters, because they get bonuses to cast and have good mobility to use our other high-reward witchfire spell, Gift of Chaos.
Just remember that you don’t need a demon for access to demon spells. If you’re prepared to spend a command point you can switch out one spell per turn for any of the 3 spell lists.
So if you really just want to gun for a spell or 2 and don’t want to run a DP you can. (He brings so much else to the table I think you should still do it but I’m saying if you wanted to you can.
Yeah, I think I've remembered to use that stratagem all of twice in all the games I've played. Once to swap a babysmite out on a SOT sorc for Warptime when my warptime caster died, and once to swap smite out for Gaze of Fate on an exalted sorc who was just sitting around on my backline once my Herald of Tzeentch died.
It is a good strat though. I should be trying to make use of it more.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, I think I've remembered to use that stratagem all of twice in all the games I've played. Once to swap a babysmite out on a SOT sorc for Warptime when my warptime caster died, and once to swap smite out for Gaze of Fate on an exalted sorc who was just sitting around on my backline once my Herald of Tzeentch died.
It is a good strat though. I should be trying to make use of it more.
It's a good trick for those not expecting it. "Oh you didn't take warptime? Phew, I can deploy without worrying about that".
One does wonder though, is it proper to yell leeroy when doing it, or is that reserved to seers bane exalted that deepstrike into changing to warptime only?
Any thoughts on Be'lakor? I have always liked the model and would love to find a way to put him into a tson army, but with only access to the basic 6 chaos spells he doesn't seem to have much synergy going for him. I mean, other than he would be a serious threat on the table that your opponent would have to face. But I just can't seem to find anyway to use him in any army, he just seems.... To not have any synergy. Am I looking at it wrong?
BoomWolf wrote: One does wonder though, is it proper to yell leeroy when doing it, or is that reserved to seers bane exalted that deepstrike into changing to warptime only?
That is probably THE most Leeroy Jenkins thing you could do in Warhammer.
Not seeing any synergy between Belakor and tsons at face value.
His bonus is in multidiety daemon lists. That said he is good.
High invulnerable characters seem to be everywhere and Belakor ruins these with Death hex.
But tsons cast it more reliably.
That said I am pondering bloodletters bombs mixed with tsons shooting so maybe he has a place after all.
Azuza001 wrote: Any thoughts on Be'lakor? I have always liked the model and would love to find a way to put him into a tson army, but with only access to the basic 6 chaos spells he doesn't seem to have much synergy going for him. I mean, other than he would be a serious threat on the table that your opponent would have to face. But I just can't seem to find anyway to use him in any army, he just seems.... To not have any synergy. Am I looking at it wrong?
Actually, he only gets 3 of the DH Hereticus spells, and not the good ones. And at 280pts (what the hell where they thinking really ????), he's just absolutely worthless... Especially since he breaks detachments by not being affiliated to any of the chaos gods.
Farseer_V2 wrote: I bet I can get it to work a few times in a tournament - but yeah in your regular play group that's a one timer.
I dunno, maybe you just start playing crazy mind games with your opponent once they realize the Chaos Familiar stratagem is a thing. Is he gonna switch to warptime? Is he just messing with me? What should I do?
Seems very Tzeentchy, making the mind games all go just as planned...
BoomWolf wrote: One does wonder though, is it proper to yell leeroy when doing it, or is that reserved to seers bane exalted that deepstrike into changing to warptime only?
Yeah, I ran the time to d-d-d-d-d-duel exalted in my last game, and that's pretty much what he did. Charged a space wolf character, hit and wounded with all his attacks, then he proceeded to make all his invuln saves and smushed him with a thunder hammer.
Not a great first performance, but dice are dice sometimes.
BoomWolf wrote: One does wonder though, is it proper to yell leeroy when doing it, or is that reserved to seers bane exalted that deepstrike into changing to warptime only?
Yeah, I ran the time to d-d-d-d-d-duel exalted in my last game, and that's pretty much what he did. Charged a space wolf character, hit and wounded with all his attacks, then he proceeded to make all his invuln saves and smushed him with a thunder hammer.
Not a great first performance, but dice are dice sometimes.
That there, exactly the kind of scenario could use a Death Hex.
BoomWolf wrote: One does wonder though, is it proper to yell leeroy when doing it, or is that reserved to seers bane exalted that deepstrike into changing to warptime only?
Yeah, I ran the time to d-d-d-d-d-duel exalted in my last game, and that's pretty much what he did. Charged a space wolf character, hit and wounded with all his attacks, then he proceeded to make all his invuln saves and smushed him with a thunder hammer.
Not a great first performance, but dice are dice sometimes.
That there, exactly the kind of scenario could use a Death Hex.
Which is exactly what I should have thought to give him, but I felt that to be truly leeroy he had to have warptime and dah-bolical.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Not seeing any synergy between Belakor and tsons at face value.
His bonus is in multidiety daemon lists. That said he is good.
High invulnerable characters seem to be everywhere and Belakor ruins these with Death hex.
But tsons cast it more reliably.
That said I am pondering bloodletters bombs mixed with tsons shooting so maybe he has a place after all.
Swiftblade wrote: What's the consensus on Maulerfiends? I'm curious.
I don't know about the consensus, but I think Maulerfiends are OK. Not bad, not great. Having only S6 on 6 of their attacks is painful, but they're quite cheap so it's fine.
I find all of the deamonforge units to be quite cool in our assortment. I have not tried a Maulerfiend yet, but may do so for my next game. I am working on switching my army up to be assault capable now instead of being so shooting dependant.
Azuza001 wrote: I find all of the deamonforge units to be quite cool in our assortment. I have not tried a Maulerfiend yet, but may do so for my next game. I am working on switching my army up to be assault capable now instead of being so shooting dependant.
I find that maulers are pretty much "fire and forget" daemon missiles.
I use a pair of Mauler/Forge. Or mauler/Vortex, or even soemtimes Mauler/forge/vortex for a trio. Often so much hard to kill that the enemy struggles to kill it all.
Personally I dig the daemon engines, they arent as straight "killy" as a predator but they are far harder to kill then a regular predator or other marine tank. Besides with our sorcerers we can generally buff something into the stratosphere so a mauler or a forge becomes a death machine when you give it the buffs we have.
For an "Assaulty" list the tzaangors are go to, but a unit of Scarab Occult wouldnt hurt either. "pop and drop" delete a unit, then charge if you can, at that point youve got threat saturation on the table at 1850-2k or so and often your enemy is going to leave *something* unmolested.
Has anyone tried enlightened with chain sword and pistol? You can get 6 for 90 which puts out 24 s4 attacks with disc added in. With ignoring would on 6 or 5 with shaman it seems like these would be good. No modifier but with a large number of attacks I think weight of numbers would be good.
Spears might work too. I'm thinking about 2x9 units with spears + 2 vortex beasts who can buff them. It looks very good on paper but i'm afraid it might not work in reality
The problem with the melee focused enlightened is they die if you look at them wrong. If you’re putting a lot of other units in their face turn 1 they could get overlooked but anything with a high rate of fire is going to shooting at them
demontalons wrote: The problem with the melee focused enlightened is they die if you look at them wrong. If you’re putting a lot of other units in their face turn 1 they could get overlooked but anything with a high rate of fire is going to shooting at them
If you keep them in smaller groups and don't worry about mega-buffing them they do well and you get to limit morale a bit.
Had a game today, first one with 1k sons' new codex. Against fluffy Death Guard zombiehorde. Scarab Occults were stars, annihilated Defiler by teleporting in rapid fire range, using VOTLW. Then jumped sides witht the relic to kill a plaguecaster and badly wound a Helbrute. Later Scarabs killed a Lord of Contagion.
Rubrics in ruins did't die much, later they just stonewalled 30+ zombies. DP killed Typhus, albeit with my lucky melee saves. Casting-wise periled twice with Ahriman, both rerolled but last one failed even with reroll so took 1 mortal wound.
I have to point out that although opponent had 80+ bodies he didnt bubblewrap after 1st turn. It would have restricted his offense somewhat to do so, hard to say if I could have fit the Occults somewhere useful still. No cover for shooting through other units helps with shooty deep strikers a lot.
Tzangoors, had 16 in webway, they came out to protect termi sorc after Scarabs bailed out with relic. Got warptimed and charged a 18 man cultist outfit which they killed, but then 20+ zombies swarmed the Tzangoors. Didnt make their points back.
Every game I have played goats are just beasts. I decided to try a non-fluffy alpha strike 1k today and the tzaangors can just lock up anything scary with ease. SOT's are also just disgusting
Swiftblade wrote: What's the consensus on Maulerfiends? I'm curious.
Good, but man every time I see them I just wish they were Defilers.
An el cheapo defiler costs like 20-30 points more, you get 2 more wounds and with the scourge S12 Ap-3 D3 vs the tendrils' S6 AP-2 D2. That makes a big difference in the amount of hurt you get out of it.
10" move is nice though.No reason you can't use both!
Puscifer wrote: What size units would you use for Tzaangors, Enlightened Tzaangors and Cultists?
I currently have 20 Tzaangors, 6 Enlightened and 20 Tzeentch Cultists.
30 tzaangors hands down, 9 skyfires for definite and cultists depends on what you use them for.
30 tzaangors dropping down with CP and termie sorc and vets of the long war is brutal. Today I used this and took out most of a 1500 point frontline.
9 skyfires/enlightened (need bows) are insane with shaman + prescience easily outputting 10+ wounds per turn. Be careful to keep them on the edge of their range as to not let them be focused because they die FAST.
Cultists can be used for objectives in 10s, or other things in 40s. If you want a decent but cheap battalion you can take two 10 cultists and 30 tzaangors.
So, not sure if we discussed this since the Codex dropped. What are we looking at for horde clearing in a pure TS army, especially at the 1000/1500pt level? The full unit of 30 Tzaangor seems good to me for volume of attacks, at least in CC. We actually seem to have more horde clearing options through CC units. But what about at range? Has anyone found a strategy with TS to get through the Poxwalker or Conscript spam?
Tuluth wrote: So, not sure if we discussed this since the Codex dropped. What are we looking at for horde clearing in a pure TS army, especially at the 1000/1500pt level?
I use Tzaangors of course, but also a squads of Flamer Rubrics (usually 9 Rubrics with 6 Warpflamers) in the Webway. A Sorcerer in Terminator armor with Familiar is heure to help them with Warptime.
I also keep 168-175pts in reserve for either 6 Flamers of Tzeentch or 25 Horrors.
How are people using their defilers? And what are you equipping the with? I can’t decide whether I should just give them the scourge and tl bolter and use them more as anti infantry/ combat. Or use them as a fire base with scourge and twin las.
What could I do with a list along these lines at 2K points? I'm not looking for an overly competitive list, just something I could have a little bit of fun with, plus I love daemon prince models
lucas wrote: What could I do with a list along these lines at 2K points? I'm not looking for an overly competitive list, just something I could have a little bit of fun with, plus I love daemon prince models
The 8 princes come to 1440 points, giving me 560 to spend.
This certainly isn't my type of list but if you have this many DPs, why not have some of them take another loadout? I do think the dual talons are the best option ordinarily speaking but surely there's a point of diminishing returns?
Any ideas on how I could build a relatively competitive army based around a forgefiend, terminators and rubrics, but no Magnus or Ahriman? Is it possible?
lucas wrote: What could I do with a list along these lines at 2K points? I'm not looking for an overly competitive list, just something I could have a little bit of fun with, plus I love daemon prince models
Captyn_Bob wrote: Not seeing any synergy between Belakor and tsons at face value.
His bonus is in multidiety daemon lists. That said he is good.
High invulnerable characters seem to be everywhere and Belakor ruins these with Death hex.
But tsons cast it more reliably.
That said I am pondering bloodletters bombs mixed with tsons shooting so maybe he has a place after all.
Khorne with tzeentch, you are disgusting
I actually do the reverse of this, I use tzaangor bombs to support pink shooting w/ nurglings securing board space.
Doing a bit of a themed Thousand Sons army for a game in a couple weeks. Not necessarily trying to go for a WAAC style with this. However I need help deciding on Powers as they are my weakest skillset right now.
Battalion 1: Ahriman on Disc Sorcerer in Termie Armor w/ Familiar, Inferno Combi-Bolter, Force Sword Basic Rubric Squad w/ Icon, Force Stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Inferno Bolters Basic Rubric Squad w/ Icon, Force Stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Inferno Bolters Basic Rubric Squad w/ Icon, Force Stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, 4x Warp Flamers
Battalion 2: Daemon Prince w/ Warlord, Warp Bolter, Wings, 2x Malefic Talons Exalted Sorc on Disc w/ 2x Power Swords, Inferno Bolt Pistol Basic Tzaangor squad w/ Icon and Brayhorn Basic Tzaangor squad w/ Icon and Brayhorn Basic Tzaangor squad w/ Icon and Brayhorn Helbrute w/ Fist and Scourge Maulerfiend w/ Tendrils Mutalith Vortex Beast
This leaves me with 20 points to spare for upgrades and 9 command points? I feel I probably want the whole Seer's Bane Exalted Sorc on Disc for sure. But the idea is to have one "standard" thousand sons battalion with Rubrics and sorcs and one "beastmaster" battalion with beasts and daemon engines. I'll probably want to deep strike the Rubric Squads?
So I need to figure out how to pick and place all these Psyker skills I'll have access to? Ideas? Also, Relics?
Remembering gains from 3 Eye and Gaze of Fate is important to remember, so as to not tax yourself from running an extra detatchment unnecessarily.
3 Eye against a 9 CP list on average brings in 3 CP. Gaze of Fate on a DP with a +1 to cast will only fail 16.66%ish of the time means over 4 rounds, expecting the DP to die on or after round 4, average 3 re-rolls.
Solely from these two options you net what could be seen as 6 CP worth of abilities. A stock battleforged battalion nets you another 6 for a total of 12 equivalent(E) CP worth of abilities. 6 on turn one, returning 3 over the game using only Gaze of Fate for RR.
Game startinv combo generally is 2 CP worth of Strategems used at the start of most games, 1 CP to run DMC (amazing musical reference there), 1 CP for Webway. Psychic phase cast Gaze of Fate foe the RR to use on whatever big gun you've got to make hit this round. First round VotLW and Cycle of Slaughter with your Goats in the assault phase for 3 CP totaling 5 CP used. VotLW in your shooting phase for 1 CP more for the 6 CP you started with.
Your turn 1 ends and you've got X CP from your opponents response. That's Alpha, if you're hit first you'll be in better shape with CP.
Anything more is just bonus.
It's not hard to fit in one more detatchment either, I'm just saying don't get caught up on splitting units to fill multiple Battalions. You can roll with 30/10/10 for Tzaangors then Marines is 660 and you have 50 ObSec troops to cover the board for a Battalion. Big blocks of hard to move Rubrics and a Goat Cycle to blow through whatever is in the way.
If you want to do more, ie. spend more on first turn shooting with Fire Fenzy or Daemon forge for 2 CP and Cabalistic Focus for 1 CP, I can see you doubling down with Battalions just to afford it. The issue I find is at that point you're using so many points on troops you're less likely to want to take the unit that benefit from those choices to fill the needs of your troop filled list.
Of course more CP the better, but I've found myself not wanting or wasting running. 12 ECP seems to be pretty decent running a solo Battalion, 13 is also an easy fit.
Zodd1888 wrote: Remembering gains from 3 Eye and Gaze of Fate is important to remember, so as to not tax yourself from running an extra detatchment unnecessarily.
3 Eye against a 9 CP list on average brings in 3 CP. Gaze of Fate on a DP with a +1 to cast will only fail 16.66%ish of the time means over 4 rounds, expecting the DP to die on or after round 4, average 3 re-rolls.
Solely from these two options you net what could be seen as 6 CP worth of abilities. A stock battleforged battalion nets you another 6 for a total of 12 equivalent(E) CP worth of abilities. 6 on turn one, returning 3 over the game using only Gaze of Fate for RR.
Game startinv combo generally is 2 CP worth of Strategems used at the start of most games, 1 CP to run DMC (amazing musical reference there), 1 CP for Webway. Psychic phase cast Gaze of Fate foe the RR to use on whatever big gun you've got to make hit this round. First round VotLW and Cycle of Slaughter with your Goats in the assault phase for 3 CP totaling 5 CP used. VotLW in your shooting phase for 1 CP more for the 6 CP you started with.
Your turn 1 ends and you've got X CP from your opponents response. That's Alpha, if you're hit first you'll be in better shape with CP.
Anything more is just bonus.
It's not hard to fit in one more detatchment either, I'm just saying don't get caught up on splitting units to fill multiple Battalions. You can roll with 30/10/10 for Tzaangors then Marines is 660 and you have 50 ObSec troops to cover the board for a Battalion. Big blocks of hard to move Rubrics and a Goat Cycle to blow through whatever is in the way.
If you want to do more, ie. spend more on first turn shooting with Fire Fenzy or Daemon forge for 2 CP and Cabalistic Focus for 1 CP, I can see you doubling down with Battalions just to afford it. The issue I find is at that point you're using so many points on troops you're less likely to want to take the unit that benefit from those choices to fill the needs of your troop filled list.
Of course more CP the better, but I've found myself not wanting or wasting running. 12 ECP seems to be pretty decent running a solo Battalion, 13 is also an easy fit.
nintura wrote: Doing a bit of a themed Thousand Sons army for a game in a couple weeks. Not necessarily trying to go for a WAAC style with this. However I need help deciding on Powers as they are my weakest skillset right now.
Battalion 1:
Ahriman on Disc
Sorcerer in Termie Armor w/ Familiar, Inferno Combi-Bolter, Force Sword
Basic Rubric Squad w/ Icon, Force Stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Inferno Bolters
Basic Rubric Squad w/ Icon, Force Stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Inferno Bolters
Basic Rubric Squad w/ Icon, Force Stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, 4x Warp Flamers
Battalion 2:
Daemon Prince w/ Warlord, Warp Bolter, Wings, 2x Malefic Talons
Exalted Sorc on Disc w/ 2x Power Swords, Inferno Bolt Pistol
Basic Tzaangor squad w/ Icon and Brayhorn
Basic Tzaangor squad w/ Icon and Brayhorn
Basic Tzaangor squad w/ Icon and Brayhorn
Helbrute w/ Fist and Scourge
Maulerfiend w/ Tendrils
Mutalith Vortex Beast
This leaves me with 20 points to spare for upgrades and 9 command points? I feel I probably want the whole Seer's Bane Exalted Sorc on Disc for sure. But the idea is to have one "standard" thousand sons battalion with Rubrics and sorcs and one "beastmaster" battalion with beasts and daemon engines. I'll probably want to deep strike the Rubric Squads?
So I need to figure out how to pick and place all these Psyker skills I'll have access to? Ideas? Also, Relics?
I assume your running at 1750 for this game? How good are you at remembering to use the Icons every Psychic phase? I always forget to use mine (I'm bad), so I would actually say drop those 6 icons and get a unit of Enlightened instead. If you want to give them bows instead of spears, then drop a bolter on one of your characters to make up the 1 point over. Or summon in a unit of blues/brims to hold down an objective.
As Zodd said, Relics, the standards are DMC and spending a CP on Helm. Grabbing Helm will really depend on your matchup, and if your opponent has a lot of CP to spend. Depending on your matchup, I can see using the additional 2 CP (for a total of 3) to pick up Seer's Bane on your Exalted.
Grab Gaze of Fate on the DP, and I would say Diabolic Strength so he can buff himself. Make sure the Termi and Exalted Sorcs are taking spells from Dark Hereticus (Warptime at a minimum). Aspiring sorcs will cover your discipline of change. Ahriman is your wild card: Use him to cast those 3 spells at a +1. If the DP dies, or you have a need for another spell, remember that you can swap out any spell (including SMITE) for 1 CP, and it gives access to all 18 spells that TS know.
Remember that you pick spells at the beginning of the game. It makes setup take longer if you're learning still, but you'll get the hang of it.
Seems a solid list. If it were me, I'd drop the random 6 foot rubrics, combine the 2 horror squads into 1 for deep striking, and maybe consider ditching the screamers to afford something like a Defiler for more anti tank. It might be smart to bump the Changecaster to a Fluxmaster to get him where he needs to be.
Basically you want ot give yourself the ability to skew your list towards your opponent. Opponent has a big horde? Spend the cps to deep strike the horrors+Flamers, give the Changecaster the reroll 1s to wound warlord trait and focus on the horde clearing alpha. Opponent has loads of MEQs? Your drake and your rubrics are going to be the star of the show, walk the pinks and strike the flamers. Opponent has a lot of tanks? Focus on buffing the defiler and the predator. Makes for a nice little TAC list.
nintura wrote: Doing a bit of a themed Thousand Sons army for a game in a couple weeks. Not necessarily trying to go for a WAAC style with this. However I need help deciding on Powers as they are my weakest skillset right now.
Battalion 1:
Ahriman on Disc
Sorcerer in Termie Armor w/ Familiar, Inferno Combi-Bolter, Force Sword
Basic Rubric Squad w/ Icon, Force Stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Inferno Bolters
Basic Rubric Squad w/ Icon, Force Stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Inferno Bolters
Basic Rubric Squad w/ Icon, Force Stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, 4x Warp Flamers
Battalion 2:
Daemon Prince w/ Warlord, Warp Bolter, Wings, 2x Malefic Talons
Exalted Sorc on Disc w/ 2x Power Swords, Inferno Bolt Pistol
Basic Tzaangor squad w/ Icon and Brayhorn
Basic Tzaangor squad w/ Icon and Brayhorn
Basic Tzaangor squad w/ Icon and Brayhorn
Helbrute w/ Fist and Scourge
Maulerfiend w/ Tendrils
Mutalith Vortex Beast
This leaves me with 20 points to spare for upgrades and 9 command points? I feel I probably want the whole Seer's Bane Exalted Sorc on Disc for sure. But the idea is to have one "standard" thousand sons battalion with Rubrics and sorcs and one "beastmaster" battalion with beasts and daemon engines. I'll probably want to deep strike the Rubric Squads?
So I need to figure out how to pick and place all these Psyker skills I'll have access to? Ideas? Also, Relics?
I assume your running at 1750 for this game? How good are you at remembering to use the Icons every Psychic phase? I always forget to use mine (I'm bad), so I would actually say drop those 6 icons and get a unit of Enlightened instead. If you want to give them bows instead of spears, then drop a bolter on one of your characters to make up the 1 point over. Or summon in a unit of blues/brims to hold down an objective.
As Zodd said, Relics, the standards are DMC and spending a CP on Helm. Grabbing Helm will really depend on your matchup, and if your opponent has a lot of CP to spend. Depending on your matchup, I can see using the additional 2 CP (for a total of 3) to pick up Seer's Bane on your Exalted.
Grab Gaze of Fate on the DP, and I would say Diabolic Strength so he can buff himself. Make sure the Termi and Exalted Sorcs are taking spells from Dark Hereticus (Warptime at a minimum). Aspiring sorcs will cover your discipline of change. Ahriman is your wild card: Use him to cast those 3 spells at a +1. If the DP dies, or you have a need for another spell, remember that you can swap out any spell (including SMITE) for 1 CP, and it gives access to all 18 spells that TS know.
Remember that you pick spells at the beginning of the game. It makes setup take longer if you're learning still, but you'll get the hang of it.
I dont have any enlightened, only using units I have. I shouldn't have any issues using the Icons as I have them on the models and painted
Spearhead Detachment
Exalted Sorc on Disc w/ Pistol, Two Power Swords
Chaos Pred w/ Havoc Launcher, Pred Autocannon, 2x Lascannon
Maulerfiend w/ Tendrils, Fists
Mutalith Vortex
It seems the answer to powers and relics depends on the opponent. But in general, I'll want to Webway the Rubrics w/ flamers and warptime them first round to clear any chaff. Put the other Rubrics on an objective. Move the Tzaangors or Webway them and get ready for turn 2. I have 3 re-roll hit rolls of 1 buffs so I can easily spread them out (they all move 12" as well) to support the daemon engines and Tzaangors for that charge.
I feel the pred is a dead end? I dont really have a way to protect it from being deepstruck on. But if I can use the pred as bait, then they'll have less units I need to deal with on turns 1 and 2 I guess.
So this has 7 CP to start with. Use 1-2 for webway depending on opponent. Start with the helm and deploy that model first (probably the DP or the Exalted Sorc as Ahriman and the DP will likely be targeted early), pay 1 CP for the crystal. I'll pay 2 more if I think the seer's bane will be necessary depending on opponent. Meaning I'll be spending 1-5 before the game begins but should get some back throughout the game.
Been trying to put together a fairly “all comers” list. Basic strategy to DS Horrors and Termies, and maybe one Exalted flamer. Rest troops for screening and objective capturing. Pushing DP up the field as fast as possible to hit something mean w his -3 AP axe. Ahriman I think I’ll use to buff stuff, esp Enlightened-squad (which I’m not super convinced about). Predator just being a predator, picking out anything big from behind.
The changeling is a bit of a HQ tax, but I was thinking I might be able to buff Exalted flamers etc w his 6+++. I’ll happily take any suggestions on how to make it a more fun list. I’m not a fan of Cultists. I’m thinking of buying Acolytes and add moded guns to them for “auto pistols”. If anyone have suggestion on how to take them away wo loosing 3 CP..
Went 4-1 at a recent big event, losing to the eventual winner with Poxwalkers. Had a good time with my tzaangor horde and it did really well. Heres some pics of my games.
The army wasnt painted fully and had a few stand ins (kroot on discs!) as I hadn't finished painting/building it all but will have it finished for the next big event!
In my last tournament I used 4 spawn, they are amazing for the cost but they die quickly if you don't get a buff on them, the 5+ save isn't going to stop anything. However if they do get into combat they will tear things apart.
I tend to see Spawn as a cheap fire magnet and horde thrasher. Generally, if they're not targeted off the hop they will cause problems and disrupt your opponents decisions. I wish they had a similar rule to Characters, or something that effected enemy charging within x" and provide a bonus to charge.
Daemon Battalion:
Fluxmaster - Flickering Flames, Gaze of Fate - Warlord - DaemonSpark
Daemon Prince of Chaos w/Wings - Khorne - Skullreaver
3x3 Nurglings
Spearhead - Alpha legion
Chaos Lord with Jump pack - Power Sword, Plasma Pistol
3x3 Obliterators - Slaneesh
Outrider - TSons
Ahriman on Disc - Prescience, Warptime, Death Hex
Tzaangor Shaman - Glamour of Tzeench
9 Tzaangor Enlightened - Great Bows
9 Tzaangor Enlightened - Great Bows
9 Tzaangor Enlightend - Great Bows
9 Tzaangor ENlighted - Diving Spears
8 CP
My question is - are the tzaangor enlightened enough ? I don't have much chaffe clear and am relying on oblits / khorne DP to mop up most big heavies. List feels a bit like a jack of all trades master of none. Hoping to proxy some models this weekend but would be great to get some feedback before shelling out 300+ dollars on enlightened.
Farseer_V2 wrote: I've played with the Enlightned and honestly they just ended up feeling too fragile to me. A stiff breeze knocks them over quick.
They have 12" movement, 2 shots at str 5, auto wounding abilities and great synergy with practically everything in the army. And they cost 15 pts. They should be fragile. Otherwise they should cost 30+ pts each. Even in their "fragile" state they still have 2 wounds , T4 and 5++ save. They are a VERY good unit.
Farseer_V2 wrote: I've played with the Enlightned and honestly they just ended up feeling too fragile to me. A stiff breeze knocks them over quick.
They have 12" movement, 2 shots at str 5, auto wounding abilities and great synergy with practically everything in the army. And they cost 15 pts. They should be fragile. Otherwise they should cost 30+ pts each. Even in their "fragile" state they still have 2 wounds , T4 and 5++ save. They are a VERY good unit.
These were my thoughts as well - point for Wound they aren't that much more than an average daemon model troop (7ppm for 1W 5++) whereas the enlightened clock in 1T higher than most and have similar save for about 1 additional point (7.5PPM wounds). However, as a primary chaff unit I am a little nervous - as Pinks have a 4++ and can go to 3++.
Farseer_V2 wrote: I've played with the Enlightned and honestly they just ended up feeling too fragile to me. A stiff breeze knocks them over quick.
They have 12" movement, 2 shots at str 5, auto wounding abilities and great synergy with practically everything in the army. And they cost 15 pts. They should be fragile. Otherwise they should cost 30+ pts each. Even in their "fragile" state they still have 2 wounds , T4 and 5++ save. They are a VERY good unit.
To be clear I own 9 and I have played with them, their damage output is admirable - however I find they very often end up as a primary target and with plenty of D2 out there they fall down. I'm not saying they're unusable but I find the balance between fragility and damage to weight a little too much towards fragility for me. For the same kind of shooting unit I just prefer pinks, they screen better, have access to great synergy and can generate similar results against a variety of targets.
Farseer_V2 wrote: I've played with the Enlightned and honestly they just ended up feeling too fragile to me. A stiff breeze knocks them over quick.
They have 12" movement, 2 shots at str 5, auto wounding abilities and great synergy with practically everything in the army. And they cost 15 pts. They should be fragile. Otherwise they should cost 30+ pts each. Even in their "fragile" state they still have 2 wounds , T4 and 5++ save. They are a VERY good unit.
To be clear I own 9 and I have played with them, their damage output is admirable - however I find they very often end up as a primary target and with plenty of D2 out there they fall down. I'm not saying they're unusable but I find the balance between fragility and damage to weight a little too much towards fragility for me. For the same kind of shooting unit I just prefer pinks, they screen better, have access to great synergy and can generate similar results against a variety of targets.
That's the overcharged plasma problem and not the 2W model problem. Same reason our termies suffer as well. Oh well, March is upon us. Perhaps plasma gets nerfed and we all get to play our favorite models after all. Also, pinks start with str 3 shooting. It can go to str 5 but it needs magic + character support and then their cost goes up as well. Plus I think they have distinct roles. Enlightened are fast harassers and deep objective grabbers. In my vision I see them with spears rather than with bows, in small units of three, preferably as the fast attack tax units of a brigade in order to send them against those far back objectives guarded only by 10 cultists or 5 fire warriors. And if they die, that's 45 pts gone. I will live with that. pinks on the other hand are the ultimate bubble wrap around my expensive stuff and a huge tarpit to make units stick in combat with them forever. Then also do the occational shooting every now and then.
topaxygouroun i wrote: That's the overcharged plasma problem and not the 2W model problem. Same reason our termies suffer as well. Oh well, March is upon us. Perhaps plasma gets nerfed and we all get to play our favorite models after all.
I actually haven't been getting plasma'd so much as I have reaper'd (of course) and hemlock'd. And again I'm not saying that these things make Enlightened bad, just offering my view point that right now I find other shooting options to be a bit more viable. I still play games with my enightened,I've just shifted to a 5 man unit with a shaman that hangs out with them with spears. Its a smaller footprint and doesn't attract as much attention but can run up and pop things like redemptors and similar higher toughness units I've had issues handling with my set up.
topaxygouroun i wrote: That's the overcharged plasma problem and not the 2W model problem. Same reason our termies suffer as well. Oh well, March is upon us. Perhaps plasma gets nerfed and we all get to play our favorite models after all.
I actually haven't been getting plasma'd so much as I have reaper'd (of course) and hemlock'd. And again I'm not saying that these things make Enlightened bad, just offering my view point that right now I find other shooting options to be a bit more viable. I still play games with my enightened,I've just shifted to a 5 man unit with a shaman that hangs out with them with spears. Its a smaller footprint and doesn't attract as much attention but can run up and pop things like redemptors and similar higher toughness units I've had issues handling with my set up.
My thought exactly with pinks but its challenging with ITC scoring - which provides significant benefit for killing pinks but none for enlightened. I think if games go 3-4 turns tourny standard than maybe enlightened will benefit a bit. A pity they can't be alpha legion (-1 to hit outside of glamour) which would make them so much better
topaxygouroun i wrote: That's the overcharged plasma problem and not the 2W model problem. Same reason our termies suffer as well. Oh well, March is upon us. Perhaps plasma gets nerfed and we all get to play our favorite models after all.
I actually haven't been getting plasma'd so much as I have reaper'd (of course) and hemlock'd. And again I'm not saying that these things make Enlightened bad, just offering my view point that right now I find other shooting options to be a bit more viable. I still play games with my enightened,I've just shifted to a 5 man unit with a shaman that hangs out with them with spears. Its a smaller footprint and doesn't attract as much attention but can run up and pop things like redemptors and similar higher toughness units I've had issues handling with my set up.
My thought exactly with pinks but its challenging with ITC scoring - which provides significant benefit for killing pinks but none for enlightened. I think if games go 3-4 turns tourny standard than maybe enlightened will benefit a bit. A pity they can't be alpha legion (-1 to hit outside of glamour) which would make them so much better
Yeah I tend accept I'm going to give up reaper (I run a lot of cultists already) and just try to minimize the other points I give up. That said structuring for ITC points is a tough one, especially with chaos that in a lot of ways like to horde out.
Can I just say how well we can pick our battles now? Between the crystal and webway strats and regular deep strike we can put a huge amount of units in one place.
Vortex beast moves 8". Warp Time it another 8". Diabolic Str gives it +2 S and +1 A. Each attack made with it's maw rolls 3 times. So 15 attacks at S8, re-rolling 1s if within range of a DP or Ahriman? Add in Prescience so that it hits on 3s as well. Doesn't hit hard but it'll surely clear any chaff they have protecting their army's soft spot.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Had a game vs Space Wolves tonight, which was interesting. What made it better was the war cards that we randomly received. It was deploying diagonally, King Slayer, and Warp Storm was the twist. I was playing a melee centric Thousand Sons army and had nasty Psykers to boot who all had +1 to cast already before the Warp Storm. Game went to the top of 3.
He was a newer player and setup with a bunch of wolves, guys on wolves, two squads of terminators, two wolf lords, pack of wolves, and the wolf scout guys. He had a bunch of melee focuses stuff, but it was all mixed up. Like one squad had a thunder hammer, powerfist, and lightning claw spread out. So not much focus. Still he got to go first and his Ruse was Ambush which let him redeploy 3 units after I had setup.
He got stuck in easily as I had little to no shooting in my entire army, but focused on the wrong units. One wolf squad went after the Maulterfiend, another went into the Tzaangor bubblewrap I had setup. Terminators dropped in, killed closest Goats which left them 12" away, but low and behold he rolled that 12. He started the fight against the maulerfiend managing 6 wounds and I followed this up by counter assaulting the Tzaangors fighting the Terminators and other Wolf squad, killing a couple in each before they got to fight.
On my turn, Ahriman did squat (he failed 4 of 6 casts this whole game...), the Term sorc with Boon of Mutation did great, the AspSorcs failed to heal the Maulerfiend. The DP just ripped through a terminator squad, hitting all 8 times and doing 9 wounds thanks to Death to the False Emperor. Rubrics did their thing and soaked up a lot of fire. I deepstruck my second Rubrics behind his Warlord to pinch him in with my Mutalith on the other side. Speaking of, I did the 9" mortal wound aura on turn 1 because I had 7 enemy squads within range, then I popped a CP and rolled a 1 and did it again.
All in all, the only squad I lost was Ahriman and about 70% of a 30 man squad of goats, and a few Rubrics.
I got some games in with the Thousands Sons versus the new Necrons. Generally, very happy with the performance of the sons. My list was:
Ahriman on foot
Sorcerer in terminator armour with a familiar (warlord trait +1 to cast) and dark matter crystal
2x9 Rubrics with inferno bolters in rhinos
30 tzaangors with the horn
10 scarab occult with 2x hellfyre missile racks
3x predators with pred auto cannon and 2 las cannons.
General plan was for termie sorcerer and tzaangors to drop early and cause damage and gum up the enemy lines. Termie sorcerer casts warptime to guarantee the charge and prescience on the tzaangors. Votlw and a second combat phase if necessary. Second turn scarabs drop in and receive the same buffs from the sorcerer. Meanwhile Rubrics and Ahriman take the midfield while the predators pick apart enemy armour.
The list has 8 drops so I was frequently going first which is pretty important in the heavy support fire fight.
Take away for me were:
Killshot stratgem is brutal but counterproductive versus quantum shielding. Killshot can wax a monolith in a single turn of concentrated fire. If going first and there are no good targets it isn’t a terrible idea to advance with the rhinos and predators and pop smoke. Best to lose only one turn of shooting and make your armour as hardy as possible.
As good as deepstriking and charging Tzaangors is - sometimes the better play is to use them to bubble wrap the predators to prevent first turn charges. An alternative approach might be set up the Rubrics out of their rhino to screen for the preds and a well placed Ahriman can let the preds re-roll 1s to hit on the killshot.
Scarab occult are tough as nails but even when buffed up they will die to destroyer fire real quick. Dark matter crystal is a great way of either moving the sorcerer to the scarabs drop zone or pull scarabs out of a combat on turn 3 to free them up to shoot and charge something else.
Ahriman on foot with 2 squads of Rubrics is just fine and very handy to use kabalistic focus for +2 to cast key spells (death hex on wraith for example). It can sometimes be worthwhile to use the familiar stratagem to swap in diabolical strength to let Ahriman hit at s8 with 5 attacks.
Generally the list felt well rounded. It has enough tricks to be quite flexible in a take all comers format but it doesn’t feel too OP as you only have enough CPs to execute some, but not all, of its tricks.
So I'm genuinly starting to think that the first units in any 1ksons list for me from now on will start with maybe 1 but probably 2 Contemptor Dreadnoughts. They plug such a big hole in our lists imo, in terms of high-accuracy anti tank/elite. Both the Butcher cannon and C-beam are very tasty weapons, and both have great secondary effects on infantry units (-2 leadership/ extra 2d6 hits at S6).
They still make good gun platforms when you give them a fist (eg. Kheres & Ecto Blaster) and are highly accurate monsters in CC.
They're a lot tougher than Predators (5++/4++ in CC) and really benefit from standard powers such as infernal strength, glamour, deathhex and warptime.
Most important of all they clock in at between 163-190pts, unless you go crazy on them. Very nice price point.
Finally, we have one of the best models in the game for our Contemptors - the FW Osiron. Man, that thing is beautiful, and really injects a bit more Rubricae theme into your list - something that a lot of us are worried about post-codex.
So what are your experiences with them? How do you use/spec yours?
I’ve been using a contemptor with butcher cannon and fist. It’s a great all rounder allowing me to advance or defend and the 10 inch move is great.
The only issue I have is that you can’t heal them with temporal manipulation. I run mine with a regular las/missile dread and they get the job done at 1500. At 2k I throw in a detailed and that’s my long range/ anti melee monster units
demontalons wrote: I’ve been using a contemptor with butcher cannon and fist. It’s a great all rounder allowing me to advance or defend and the 10 inch move is great.
The only issue I have is that you can’t heal them with temporal manipulation. I run mine with a regular las/missile dread and they get the job done at 1500. At 2k I throw in a detailed and that’s my long range/ anti melee monster units
Why can't contemptors be healed with temporal manipulation?
On their data sheet it says they can only regain wounds through machine malifica. I.e eating someone in close combat and it specifically states that they cannot regain wounds any other way
demontalons wrote: On their data sheet it says they can only regain wounds through machine malifica. I.e eating someone in close combat and it specifically states that they cannot regain wounds any other way
Did this change? I could have sworn the wording of the rule was specific to the turn, i.e. you could use Machina Malefica or something else, but not both in a single turn.
Looking at my digital copy of the FW index, it has Lord Arkos with the Alpha Legion keyword. Pretty sure that didn't used to be there.
demontalons wrote: On their data sheet it says they can only regain wounds through machine malifica. I.e eating someone in close combat and it specifically states that they cannot regain wounds any other way
Did this change? I could have sworn the wording of the rule was specific to the turn, i.e. you could use Machina Malefica or something else, but not both in a single turn.
Looking at my digital copy of the FW index, it has Lord Arkos with the Alpha Legion keyword. Pretty sure that didn't used to be there.
Go more melee and keep the weapons cheap or make it a fire base with combo bolter twin las havoc and battle cannon? Boost it with flickering flames and prescience and use demonforge and laugh?
Go more melee and keep the weapons cheap or make it a fire base with combo bolter twin las havoc and battle cannon? Boost it with flickering flames and prescience and use demonforge and laugh?
I run mine with dual laz and a scourge. I use it as a fire base, at minimum casting Flickering flames and weaver of fate on it so it's wounding pretty much everything on 2's and getting protected from incoming fire by half. Glamor of tzeench can also help make it a beast / hard to kill. Deamonforge for a cp means your probably hitting with almost everything, and if you want it to be a mobile fire Support cast prescience on it. That may be a lot to cast but arhiman and a sorcerer can do it and still have a slot left for repair magic. However if your going to do this kind of thing I found your going to want at least 2 deamon machines there, 2 defilers, or a defiler and a forgefiend because when ones dies the other can be boosted still. But yeah, defilers of the thosand sons rock.
That feels like wasting all our good powers on a mediocre unit.
Surely things like weaver, glamour and flickering flames are better saved for units which are more useful? tzaangor with glamour and weaver are devastating (combine with warptime for the nasty goatbomb.) and flickering flames is best used on pink horrors
Sneggy wrote: tzaangor with glamour and weaver are devastating (combine with warptime for the nasty goatbomb.) and flickering flames is best used on pink horrors
Well, it is sad indeed that Pink Horrors are a better tank-hunting unit than Defilers (shooting). But they can be tied up in CC while a Defiler will usually crush anything that comes close to it. And the Defiler's weapons range usually keeps it safe from return fire.
I agree though that you need another big target otherwise he's toast. That's why I usually run a Lord of Change with Impossible robe and -1 damage (Warlord trait) along with my Daemon Engines, to act as a Distraction Carnifex. So far it has worked rather well, and I only use Temporal Manipulation to keep the Daemon engine alive (Glamour and Weaver are barely needed).
Also not all those spells need to be put on him. It's about target options, if there are no t9 targets then Flickering flames don't need to be put on. If your opponent is more afraid of the tzaangors then put glamor on them. I was just explaining how I run mine.
So I am getting back into 40K after a long hiatus (left around the start of 5th ed), and looking to get back in. I am looking to do a mixed Tzeentch list. I have some old daemons, some new Thousand Sons, and some WFB/AoS stuff that's now in 40K apparently. 2K is what is mainly played at my club, but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around list building. Hoping for some example lists and general advice with my collection..
On the TS side I have:
Magnus the Red
2x Tzaangor Shamans
10x Scarab Occult Terminators w/ 2x Soulreapers (have the missile bits, but undecided on usefulness)
20x Tzaangors (melee variant)
6x Enlightened with bows
3x Enlightened with spears
Mutalith Vortex Beast
Daemons
Lord of Change w/ rod
Herald of Tzeentch w/ rod
The Changeling
Blue Scribes
20x Pink Horrors
30x Blue Horrors
30x Brimstone Horrors
6x Flamers
6x Screamers
2x Burning Chariots
Lastly I have a few more models that I might be able to get away with counts as (opinions welcome on that):
Ogroid Thaumaturge (thought he might make for a decent Tzeentch Daemon Prince)
Gaunt Summoner (hes on a 40mm, but I thought he might make a decent alternative for 2nd Tzeentch Herald)
40x Kairic Acolytes (they are on 32s. Might be able to run them as Cultists or less mutated Tzaangors?)
AverageBoss wrote: So I am getting back into 40K after a long hiatus (left around the start of 5th ed), and looking to get back in. I am looking to do a mixed Tzeentch list. I have some old daemons, some new Thousand Sons, and some WFB/AoS stuff that's now in 40K apparently. 2K is what is mainly played at my club, but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around list building. Hoping for some example lists and general advice with my collection..
On the TS side I have:
Magnus the Red
2x Tzaangor Shamans
10x Scarab Occult Terminators w/ 2x Soulreapers (have the missile bits, but undecided on usefulness)
20x Tzaangors (melee variant)
6x Enlightened with bows
3x Enlightened with spears
Mutalith Vortex Beast
Daemons
Lord of Change w/ rod
Herald of Tzeentch w/ rod
The Changeling
Blue Scribes
20x Pink Horrors
30x Blue Horrors
30x Brimstone Horrors
6x Flamers
6x Screamers
2x Burning Chariots
Lastly I have a few more models that I might be able to get away with counts as (opinions welcome on that):
Ogroid Thaumaturge (thought he might make for a decent Tzeentch Daemon Prince)
Gaunt Summoner (hes on a 40mm, but I thought he might make a decent alternative for 2nd Tzeentch Herald)
40x Kairic Acolytes (they are on 32s. Might be able to run them as Cultists or less mutated Tzaangors?)
Firstly, get another 10 tzaangors. A squad of 30 should be a must for any good tsons list. Also buy Ahriman. He is extremely good, another must. I don't know much about tzeentch daemons so I will go for a list of the tsons half.
Battalion
Ahriman 166
Tzeentch daemon prince with axe (ogroid has a axey looking thing right?) 156
30 tzaangors with horn 220
10 cultists (kairic acolytes are definitely cultists, if opponent asks about pistols say that their AOS shooting ability is their form of a pistol) 40
10 cultists 40
5 SOT w/ soulreaper 216
5 SOT w/ soulreaper 216
6 bow enlightened 92
Shaman 90
Super heavy
Magnus 445
This brings you to 1681 points, leaving some room for anything else you feel like. Perhaps some cheapo brimstones?
Hope this helps!
So here is a question, how do we deal with Tau? Their suits seem to put out such a huge amount of firepower, and their drones block everything. Spells get blocked, heavy weapons get blocked, 4++ saves or 3++ saves depending on the unit, plus overwatch on 5's and they can have their pals also join in on overwatch. Seems like a tough nut to Crack.
I was thinking mutalith vortex beasts myself. 9" mortal wound to all enemy units seems to be a good way to kill drones in mass. Plus they could support a large tzaangors squad easily.
Against tau you really need the right spells. For instance death hex is critical for stripping rip tides of their inv and then letting whatever heavy support you have go to town on them.
Also if he’s bunching up his drones use the strat to switch one of your spells for infernal gateway. If you use it on a sorceror terminator and the strat for plus 2 you’re casting on a 4 and getting d6 mortal wounds on everything within 3 inches of that model on an 8.
Ideally warp talons are of good use to break a tau castle. If you don’t have that a large tzaangors horde warptimes into it should be enough to break through a drone line.
Good ideas. I didn't even think of infernal gateway, and death hex is a must. I always put it on my warlord for the 2+ to first cast in case it's needed.
I love combat but it seems trying to combat crisis suits is a waste while the drones live, they will just intercept high damage and then fly their suits out of combat to shoot us again. Warp talons do sound like an excellent option for dealing with that.
We are still waiting for FAQ from GW to be posted online, but here are the tidbits they teased on the stream:
- Grey Knights/Thousand Sons have an exemption of sorts from the smite restriction. - +1 to cast to smite, rather than -1. Max 11, 11 and 12 does supersmite. - Max 3 units of the same datasheets, troops and dedicated transports are an exception. That means max 3 daemon princes or max 27 tzaangor enlightened. BETA rule - Soup detachments are affected somehow, but it was unclear, cannot mix detachments? - 5CP for batallion, 12 CP for brigade
- point adjustments will be posted in the FAQ.
Automatically Appended Next Post: apparently we've been cheating. The Warhammer 40k Rulebook has a rule in it that units that have been played in reinformencts/reserves cannot be moved by any means, and they specifically mention Warp Time. but the book was last updated January 22nd.
nintura wrote:
apparently we've been cheating. The Warhammer 40k Rulebook has a rule in it that units that have been played in reinformencts/reserves cannot be moved by any means, and they specifically mention Warp Time. but the book was last updated January 22nd.
Ya, it's most strange. I noticed it because I randomly looked at the rulebook FAQ, assuming it had been updated with the rest. It kills the tzaangor bomb as a reliable tactic and blasts it into 'silly pray-it-works' territory. Granted, tzaangor get +1 to charge and there's a spell to reroll a dice, so it's not as bad as most armies, but it still has unacceptable odds of success - you'll fail it something like 40% of the time?
nintura wrote:
apparently we've been cheating. The Warhammer 40k Rulebook has a rule in it that units that have been played in reinformencts/reserves cannot be moved by any means, and they specifically mention Warp Time. but the book was last updated January 22nd.
Ya, it's most strange. I noticed it because I randomly looked at the rulebook FAQ, assuming it had been updated with the rest. It kills the tzaangor bomb as a reliable tactic and blasts it into 'silly pray-it-works' territory. Granted, tzaangor get +1 to charge and there's a spell to reroll a dice, so it's not as bad as most armies, but it still has unacceptable odds of success - you'll fail it something like 40% of the time?
The update date was wrong for the rulebook, it has now been fixed and indicates 16/04.
...and the Rubrics were not mentioned in the slightest. As in, they still have two separate datasheets equally valid at the same time. After 2 rounds of FAQs.
Question is, what do we even play now? Rubrics are still meh, scarabs are even worse (no DS potential on turn 1), tzaangor bomb is out. Honestly, what is left to use at this point?
I think the only viable list at the moment is to use a tzeentch only soup (Tzeentch is not in the forbidden keywords so we can mix and match between codexes as long as it's Tzeentch.
Pink/brimstone horrors as troops, CSM rubric marines MSU with soulreaper cannons as elites, oblits of tzeentch as heavy?
We need a viable shooting line to soften up units until a turn 2 drop. That or we need a lot more rhinos.
It’s not all bad news. Even without warptime we can get a tzaangor here on turn 2 in combat with relative ease. With the gaze of fate power we can still burn a cp reroll to get them into CC. And then burn the gaze of fate reroll to get into CC. It’s not guaranteed but it’s the best we can do.
unfortunately I think this means that tsons with flamers have to be in rhino for turn 2 hits. So rhino rush and warptime the rhino pop smoke, add glamor for -2, and then burn some CP and throw a big unit of cultists to support it.
Normal gors running up the field screening DPs and shamans, plus the bow guys and a defiler for some shooting is what I've been running. It's not a high level tournament winner or anything but it's been pretty viable at the local level and this FAQ doesn't really touch it.
Azuza001 wrote: So what is the viability of dsing 30 tzaangors and getting that 9" charge off?
Not very good if you do it like that.
Instead:
Reserve your bomb and a big Rubric blob.
First turn drop your Tzaangors in your deployment zone. buff them to hell to survive one turn of shooting (or use an extra 30-strong blob).
Second turn drop in the Rubrics and the termie sorcerer. Use Dark Matter crystal to send your blob in the front. Use the rubrics to clear the chaff away, warptime your tzaangors with the termie sorc (use stratagem, high magister and familiar for a +4 to cast) and then proceed to slaughter.
Azuza001 wrote: So what is the viability of dsing 30 tzaangors and getting that 9" charge off?
Not very good if you do it like that.
Instead:
Reserve your bomb and a big Rubric blob.
First turn drop your Tzaangors in your deployment zone. buff them to hell to survive one turn of shooting (or use an extra 30-strong blob).
Second turn drop in the Rubrics and the termie sorcerer. Use Dark Matter crystal to send your blob in the front. Use the rubrics to clear the chaff away, warptime your tzaangors with the termie sorc (use stratagem, high magister and familiar for a +4 to cast) and then proceed to slaughter.
Except you can't warp time a unit after using the crystal on it :(
Can you do that? I was under the impression that you can't warp time something that the crystal moved anymore than you could warptime something deep striking now.
This has to do with the "arrive in the battlefield" term. If your unit started the game on the field (or dropped in a previous turn) then a case could be done that the Dark Matter Crystal does not make them "arrive to the battlefield". Instead it says "remove the unit and place it again anywhere within 9"."
topaxygouroun i wrote: This has to do with the "arrive in the battlefield" term. If your unit started the game on the field (or dropped in a previous turn) then a case could be done that the Dark Matter Crystal does not make them "arrive to the battlefield". Instead it says "remove the unit and place it again anywhere within 9"."
Units that are removed and then returned to the battlefield count as having arrived from reserves that turn, there is a FAQ on this.
An 8 inch charge with the ability to reroll shouldn’t be that hard to make. With gaze of fate and the cp reroll it should be about a 75 percent success
I am just not sure I want to drop 100$ on 30 tzaangors to do this, before it was a solid strat but now I have to wait until turn 2 and then not have used my rerolls. Wouldn't 20 inferno bolter shots simply be better for the cost since you don't have to worry about the charge? It's about the same points cost.
Azuza001 wrote: I am just not sure I want to drop 100$ on 30 tzaangors to do this, before it was a solid strat but now I have to wait until turn 2 and then not have used my rerolls. Wouldn't 20 inferno bolter shots simply be better for the cost since you don't have to worry about the charge? It's about the same points cost.
Tzaangors have never been about killing things. It's always been about tying stuff in Close combat AND killing things. 10 Rubrics might cost the same as 30 Tzaangors, but they don't want to be in CC and can't shoot a second time, contrary to Tzaangors who can fight twice for 2 CP (which are now plentiful thanks to the FAQ). Tzaangors are also more durable for their cost (since Morale is so easily mitigated.
I've been dropping Tzaangors via Webway ever since our 'dex came out, and almost never used Warptime to do so. I think I've only failed my charge once (against Sisters), and there were enough Tzaangors left in the following turn to do their job.
TL;DR : Tzaangors are still way better than Rubrics, and our best asset.
I will look into it more but thanks Nym, I was about to just write them off completely. And I guess that is true, getting an 8" charge off on 2d6 with rerolls as options should be doable. Now the question is do you take a shaman with them? I was thinking shaman with crystal and 30 tzaangors, deep strike the tzaangors then move the shaman and a squad of rubrics up. Rubrics lay down cover fire against something else ,shaman boosts the blob, and the blob goes to town. Or would a deamon prince just be better because it's a deamon prince.
Making my 10 man flamer squad alpha legion and use the infiltrate option or stick them in a rhino and warptime the rhino up?
Well with alpha legion your spending command points to do it, with the rhino you could take 2 squads of 5, cast glamor of tzeench on it, warptime it for a large move, then pop smoke for -2 to hit. This also helps you get more command points and gives you 2 mini smites for the loss of 2 flamers. I would go with the rhino, I mean -2 to hit? That's going to have to draw fire because of the payload is scary but it's going to soak up the wounds easily.
pismakron wrote: Tzaangors are still viable. Just give them a brayhorn and run them across the field. You will end up charging something on your second turn
Or you will end up removing them from the table during the first enemy's shooting phase. I personally would bet on it .
Yeah, if I am going to go with the tzaangors blob it's still deep strike and charge, just on turn 2 which isn't a big deal. I see deep striking shifting from "alpha strike" to "supporting measures" and "enemy mistake capitalization". That's easy enough to move to, we are still a force designed around psychic powers and mid ranged shooting.
RedEcho wrote: So assuming the new beta rules are in play, what’s our strongest list at 2000points?
I don't know what's our strongest list, since it mostly depends on how much "soup" you want in your army.
I personally run 2 Batallions (1 TS, 1Tz Daemons), and it's working great. With the FAQ I'm going to run my Rubrics in Rhinos again and drop my Scarabs for Obliterators (Aux. detachment).
My MVPs are usually Defiler (buffed with Prescience and Flickering Flames) and my WAR-Lord of Change with Impossible Robe and -1 damage trait (and Warp Surge for that sweet 2++).
I have a tournament coming up this weekend and would like some feedback on my list options.
We are playing 1500 pts, either 4x6 or 4x4 tables depending on how many will be there. To is using new rules, allowing dark crystal to work first turn like above suggests.
List one
Spoiler:
+ No Force Org Slot +
Relics of the Thousand Sons (1 Relic)
+ HQ +
Ahriman: Glamour of Tzeentch, Prescience, Warptime
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Flickering Flames, Helm of the Third Eye, Malefic talon, Warptime, Wings
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: 6. High Magister, Dark Matter Crystal, Death Hex, Familiar, Force stave, Inferno Combi-bolter, Prescience, Warlord
I also could take a predator or two, or a hellbrute (fist and scourge loadout), a helldrake, 2 rhinos, and / or tzaangor shaman. That's about the extent of my Tsons. Any help would be appreciated. I really want to make tsons my tournament list, at least for the semi competitive ones I go to.
Wanted to give an update, ended up using the 1st of my lists at the tournament, went 2 and 1, was a blast and the list really was quite effective. I am going to spoiler the details if people just want to read what my thoughts are and not read the mess of my memory.
Spoiler:
1st game was vs Orks and it went well, only lost a few rubrics, my deamon prince, the tzaangors, and the rhino. Tzaangor bomb is still quite effective and easy to get that 8 with rerolls from either CP's or Gaze of Fate. Only thing the ork player had left when we called it was 18 boys and his psycher.
2nd game was vs another Tson army, this one was Magnus, 2 Deamon Princes, a Land Raider, 2 five man Rubric squads, and a small group of tzaangors. I lost this one, but it was a brutal battle. Land raider had 6 wounds left, 1 deamons prince had 1 wound left, Magnus was at 11 or 12 I think for wounds, and there were 4 rubrics left when I called it on his side. I just didn't have the ability to deal with such a monster based force, and I failed a couple of key spots (18 tzaangor attacks did 7 wounds to the dp first round of fighting, and 0 after I used 2 cp to try again, DP failed his charge vs rubrics, needed a 6 got a 3). To be fair I forgot some of my rules, like eatherstride letting you reroll failed charges. Could have gone different if those points had been different.
3rd match was again against tsons (lots of tsons decided to play today lol) and it was a slaughter. He had 2 laz preds, arhiman, a deamon prince, 9 enlighten in one squad, a second of 3, a shaman, and like 5 five man Rubric squads. It was a slaughter, I got first turn and my dp flew up and killed the squad of 3, my tzaangors hit his flank and killed some rubrics, defiler killed a predator with its first round of shooting (I don't care what people may say, but defiler + prescience + reroll failed hit and wound stratagem = dead everything typically), and my rubrics moved up. He tried to counter assault, sending the deamon prince into the tzaangors(big mistake, giving me reroll to hit helped to kill that dp), and unloaded on my vortex beast and deamon prince, killing the prince. However he brought the vortex beast down to 6 wounds, so next turn I move forward again, mutalith shoots the flare and kills 5 rubrics (got to love those 5 man squads, more mortal wounds for all to play with) tzaangors kill the deamon prince, my guys kill more rubrics so each squad is at 2-3 guys in it, and I secure the objective (hold the center of the table a kind of King of the hill). His 2nd turn he moves forward with his other pred, drops his large enlighten in by the defiler, shoots everything he can at it and brings it down to 6 wounds (I got lucky, 4 laz cannon shots hit, 4 wounds, and I roll 3 sixes for my invulnerable save) so he tries to charge it to finish it off. It doesn't work. My 3rd turn I cast death hex onto enlighten, mutalith (which is at 2 wounds now) blasts again, defiler crushes all the enlighten that are stuck in cc with it (when they don't have an invulnerable save those scourge attacks just wipe them out) and my opponent concedes as he only has his pred, arhiman, and 6-8 total rubrics left and I still have most my army (granted some of it was about to die) and I had the center of the table on lock down. He wasn't gutting in to get the center from my 20 rubrics + arhiman + terminator sorcerer + rhino of distraction.
So my thoughts.
Everyone did really well for the most part. I am going to definitely drop the terminator sorcerer from the list though, at 140 pts I can get another ground DP for just 16 more points which would have been infinitely better than the sorcerer was. Had I done that I may have stood a better chance in the game I lost. Also the idea of 2 squads of 10 so I get those beautiful soul reaper cannons vs 4 squads of 5 for more mini smites, it's an interesting trade. I don't know what I think about it but those 5 man squads were durable for sure, just not vs a vortex beast.
Mvp would be the defiler with honorable mention to the vortex beast. In the first game he killed a truck, some lootas, a pain boy, and a mad doc, second game he did all the wounds basically to the land raider and held magnus up for a turn, more than I expected since he was my only anti tank and was getting gunned for. Finally last game killing the predator and enlighten while getting ready to kill the 2nd pred, it was nasty business.
Least effective would be my sorcerer in term. He did kill a ork boss first game with infernal gaze (look into my eyes), just made magnus mad 2nd, and did get the death hex off 3rd when I needed it, but for his cost like I said, should just use another DP so I can do all that and kick ass in cc.
Azuza001 wrote: Wanted to give an update, ended up using the 1st of my lists at the tournament, went 2 and 1, was a blast and the list really was quite effective. I am going to spoiler the details if people just want to read what my thoughts are and not read the mess of my memory.
Spoiler:
1st game was vs Orks and it went well, only lost a few rubrics, my deamon prince, the tzaangors, and the rhino. Tzaangor bomb is still quite effective and easy to get that 8 with rerolls from either CP's or Gaze of Fate. Only thing the ork player had left when we called it was 18 boys and his psycher.
2nd game was vs another Tson army, this one was Magnus, 2 Deamon Princes, a Land Raider, 2 five man Rubric squads, and a small group of tzaangors. I lost this one, but it was a brutal battle. Land raider had 6 wounds left, 1 deamons prince had 1 wound left, Magnus was at 11 or 12 I think for wounds, and there were 4 rubrics left when I called it on his side. I just didn't have the ability to deal with such a monster based force, and I failed a couple of key spots (18 tzaangor attacks did 7 wounds to the dp first round of fighting, and 0 after I used 2 cp to try again, DP failed his charge vs rubrics, needed a 6 got a 3). To be fair I forgot some of my rules, like eatherstride letting you reroll failed charges. Could have gone different if those points had been different.
3rd match was again against tsons (lots of tsons decided to play today lol) and it was a slaughter. He had 2 laz preds, arhiman, a deamon prince, 9 enlighten in one squad, a second of 3, a shaman, and like 5 five man Rubric squads. It was a slaughter, I got first turn and my dp flew up and killed the squad of 3, my tzaangors hit his flank and killed some rubrics, defiler killed a predator with its first round of shooting (I don't care what people may say, but defiler + prescience + reroll failed hit and wound stratagem = dead everything typically), and my rubrics moved up. He tried to counter assault, sending the deamon prince into the tzaangors(big mistake, giving me reroll to hit helped to kill that dp), and unloaded on my vortex beast and deamon prince, killing the prince. However he brought the vortex beast down to 6 wounds, so next turn I move forward again, mutalith shoots the flare and kills 5 rubrics (got to love those 5 man squads, more mortal wounds for all to play with) tzaangors kill the deamon prince, my guys kill more rubrics so each squad is at 2-3 guys in it, and I secure the objective (hold the center of the table a kind of King of the hill). His 2nd turn he moves forward with his other pred, drops his large enlighten in by the defiler, shoots everything he can at it and brings it down to 6 wounds (I got lucky, 4 laz cannon shots hit, 4 wounds, and I roll 3 sixes for my invulnerable save) so he tries to charge it to finish it off. It doesn't work. My 3rd turn I cast death hex onto enlighten, mutalith (which is at 2 wounds now) blasts again, defiler crushes all the enlighten that are stuck in cc with it (when they don't have an invulnerable save those scourge attacks just wipe them out) and my opponent concedes as he only has his pred, arhiman, and 6-8 total rubrics left and I still have most my army (granted some of it was about to die) and I had the center of the table on lock down. He wasn't gutting in to get the center from my 20 rubrics + arhiman + terminator sorcerer + rhino of distraction.
So my thoughts.
Everyone did really well for the most part. I am going to definitely drop the terminator sorcerer from the list though, at 140 pts I can get another ground DP for just 16 more points which would have been infinitely better than the sorcerer was. Had I done that I may have stood a better chance in the game I lost. Also the idea of 2 squads of 10 so I get those beautiful soul reaper cannons vs 4 squads of 5 for more mini smites, it's an interesting trade. I don't know what I think about it but those 5 man squads were durable for sure, just not vs a vortex beast.
Mvp would be the defiler with honorable mention to the vortex beast. In the first game he killed a truck, some lootas, a pain boy, and a mad doc, second game he did all the wounds basically to the land raider and held magnus up for a turn, more than I expected since he was my only anti tank and was getting gunned for. Finally last game killing the predator and enlighten while getting ready to kill the 2nd pred, it was nasty business.
Least effective would be my sorcerer in term. He did kill a ork boss first game with infernal gaze (look into my eyes), just made magnus mad 2nd, and did get the death hex off 3rd when I needed it, but for his cost like I said, should just use another DP so I can do all that and kick ass in cc.
Thanks for the battle report - can you clarify for "dp flew up and killed the squad of 3, my tzaangors hit his flank and killed some rubrics, " How you charged his flank first turn with the new deepstrike rules and got your deamon prince in? You can only warptime one unit and most deployments are 24 inches... Was is an 18 inch deploy and you warptimed the tzangs and the prince hit a 7 inch charge?
Deamon prince with eatherstride warlord trait, its first move forward was 12+4 from advanced, then warptime which made it another 16, easy charge.
Dark matter crystal still works first turn, like da jump. I started the tzaangors on the field and just popped the crystal to put them 9" out, with the breyhorn that's an 8" charge.
Azuza001 wrote: Deamon prince with eatherstride warlord trait, its first move forward was 12+4 from advanced, then warptime which made it another 16, easy charge.
Dark matter crystal still works first turn, like da jump. I started the tzaangors on the field and just popped the crystal to put them 9" out, with the breyhorn that's an 8" charge.
A better point of something I noticed while playing, the tzaangors. I have 19 of them, (1 became a shaman with conversion work) and I never got all 19 in combat at once. Normally it was 10-12 making the charge and getting to attack due to pile ins and stuff. What I was thinking was 15-20 would be the sweet spot for these guys. 30 of them sounds great but you have to deal with actually being able to place such a large blob, and not all 30 will probably ever get in range to fight, so all your doing is paying for extra wounds with no real bonus other than needing more room to place them (which is not a bonus)
So yeah, count me in the group of "don't max the tzaangors". It's not worth it.
So, i was planning on revamping my Space Marines, but, then i remembered that i wanted to progress my Thousand Sons from 30k to 40k!
I keep getting drawn back to Rubric marines with varying results, but, i'd like some quick glances over this list if possible! It is aimed at being competitive, but, i'm just not sure how it's going to pan out. Got a 1 detachment of each type limit.
Spoiler:
Battalion -
Ahriman on Disc - Warlord, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Glamour of Tzeentch.
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc - DMC, Prescience, Weaver of Fates, 2 power swords.
Cultists x15.
Rubric Marines x5 - bolters, axe, Temporal Manipulation.
Rubric Marines x5 - 4x flamers, axe, Temporal Manipulation.
Rubric Marines x10 - bolters, Soulreaper, Weaver of Fates
Rhino x2 - x2 combi bolter.
Supreme Command
Daemon Prince - wings, x2 talon, bolter, warptime, infernal gateway.
Daemon Prince - helm of third eye, wings, x2 talon, bolter, Warptime, gaze of fate.
Daemon Prince - wings, x2 talon, bolter, gift of chaos, infernal gaze.
Magnus - Death hex, Doombolt, weaver of fates.
This list gives me mobility, a fair amount of "tough" threats and a lot of psychic. With only 9-10 drops, i would hope to get the first turn roll off advantage and decide from there. Most of the things that can still deep strike won't really worry me too much, so i can always opt to go 2nd if i win the roll off - biggest issue though is then keeping Magnus out of LoS turn1.
Thoughts on dropping the flamer squad and 1 rhino for 5 terminators to use the crystal and warptime on turn one, instead of potentially the 10 man rubric squad? If i did this, i'd swap the roles of the 5 and 10 man rubric squads around. Issues then arise from the terminators being a good target for 2 dmg weapons.
Flyers would be a turn 1 problem, but, after than should be manageable via smites and charging princes. Gun lines would have 1 turn to kill everything before the princes hit their lines.
You need things to clear hordes out. Otherwise all your psychic might will get wasted eating chaff. Magnus will soak up turn 1 firepower and die so you’ll have to make sure the rest of your army can overcome that
demontalons wrote: You need things to clear hordes out. Otherwise all your psychic might will get wasted eating chaff. Magnus will soak up turn 1 firepower and die so you’ll have to make sure the rest of your army can overcome that
Was thinking that's where the large amounts of bolter fire, maybe warptiming the flamer unit into range, smites and the 1st turn would come into play. If the majority of my force is mid table and killed all the screens turn 1, then even if Magnus dies in the following turn, i'm pretty much setup to get past any remaining screens with the princes.
That said, if you were just sticking to Thousand Sons, what would you use for horde clearance? If i'm honest, the most screens i'm expecting to see if a handful of scouts, fire warrior spam and guard infantry. Killing the scouts wont be a problem, and the rest i feel the survive rate vs them is in my favour.
Kdash wrote: So, i was planning on revamping my Space Marines, but, then i remembered that i wanted to progress my Thousand Sons from 30k to 40k!
I keep getting drawn back to Rubric marines with varying results, but, i'd like some quick glances over this list if possible! It is aimed at being competitive, but, i'm just not sure how it's going to pan out. Got a 1 detachment of each type limit.
Spoiler:
Battalion -
Ahriman on Disc - Warlord, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Glamour of Tzeentch.
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc - DMC, Prescience, Weaver of Fates, 2 power swords.
Cultists x15.
Rubric Marines x5 - bolters, axe, Temporal Manipulation.
Rubric Marines x5 - 4x flamers, axe, Temporal Manipulation.
Rubric Marines x10 - bolters, Soulreaper, Weaver of Fates
Rhino x2 - x2 combi bolter.
Supreme Command
Daemon Prince - wings, x2 talon, bolter, warptime, infernal gateway.
Daemon Prince - helm of third eye, wings, x2 talon, bolter, Warptime, gaze of fate.
Daemon Prince - wings, x2 talon, bolter, gift of chaos, infernal gaze.
Magnus - Death hex, Doombolt, weaver of fates.
This list gives me mobility, a fair amount of "tough" threats and a lot of psychic. With only 9-10 drops, i would hope to get the first turn roll off advantage and decide from there. Most of the things that can still deep strike won't really worry me too much, so i can always opt to go 2nd if i win the roll off - biggest issue though is then keeping Magnus out of LoS turn1.
Thoughts on dropping the flamer squad and 1 rhino for 5 terminators to use the crystal and warptime on turn one, instead of potentially the 10 man rubric squad? If i did this, i'd swap the roles of the 5 and 10 man rubric squads around. Issues then arise from the terminators being a good target for 2 dmg weapons.
Flyers would be a turn 1 problem, but, after than should be manageable via smites and charging princes. Gun lines would have 1 turn to kill everything before the princes hit their lines.
Is Magnus even worth it?
Thanks!
Magnus is a beast but will get targeted so fair warning there.
I wouldn't make arhiman my warlord I would give that the one of the Deamon Princes, give that DP the Eatherstride trait, warptime, and demonic strength, then run it straight at the closest enemy target you can turn 1. This does 2 things, it puts something straight in their face not magnus that they must deal with and if you don't get first turn you still have this demonic missile that can't be targeted due to being a charecter.
Putting Temporal manipulation on the rubrics doesn't seem to make much sense to me, you can't bring rubrics back with it and is a reactive spell, meaning you need to wait until you have damage done before you can even cast it. I prefer firestorm of tzeench on mine for the extra mortal wound opportunitys.
You didn't give any of your deamon princes any of the good deamon spells, gaze of fate, Flickering flames, these are 2 very useful spells especially if you have a good target like a defiler or forgefiend to cast on.
Your list is close to the list I lost too this weekend, granted we were playing at 1500 pts, but still it's a powerful list. You may have trouble with holds though, tyrnaids could really cause issues to it. Keep in mind you can only cast a spell once a turn other than smite so once you cast weaver of fate and glamor of tzeench on magnus then anyone else with that spell can't cast it.
Kdash wrote: So, i was planning on revamping my Space Marines, but, then i remembered that i wanted to progress my Thousand Sons from 30k to 40k!
I keep getting drawn back to Rubric marines with varying results, but, i'd like some quick glances over this list if possible! It is aimed at being competitive, but, i'm just not sure how it's going to pan out. Got a 1 detachment of each type limit.
Spoiler:
Battalion -
Ahriman on Disc - Warlord, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Glamour of Tzeentch.
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc - DMC, Prescience, Weaver of Fates, 2 power swords.
Cultists x15.
Rubric Marines x5 - bolters, axe, Temporal Manipulation.
Rubric Marines x5 - 4x flamers, axe, Temporal Manipulation.
Rubric Marines x10 - bolters, Soulreaper, Weaver of Fates
Rhino x2 - x2 combi bolter.
Supreme Command
Daemon Prince - wings, x2 talon, bolter, warptime, infernal gateway.
Daemon Prince - helm of third eye, wings, x2 talon, bolter, Warptime, gaze of fate.
Daemon Prince - wings, x2 talon, bolter, gift of chaos, infernal gaze.
Magnus - Death hex, Doombolt, weaver of fates.
This list gives me mobility, a fair amount of "tough" threats and a lot of psychic. With only 9-10 drops, i would hope to get the first turn roll off advantage and decide from there. Most of the things that can still deep strike won't really worry me too much, so i can always opt to go 2nd if i win the roll off - biggest issue though is then keeping Magnus out of LoS turn1.
Thoughts on dropping the flamer squad and 1 rhino for 5 terminators to use the crystal and warptime on turn one, instead of potentially the 10 man rubric squad? If i did this, i'd swap the roles of the 5 and 10 man rubric squads around. Issues then arise from the terminators being a good target for 2 dmg weapons.
Flyers would be a turn 1 problem, but, after than should be manageable via smites and charging princes. Gun lines would have 1 turn to kill everything before the princes hit their lines.
Is Magnus even worth it?
Thanks!
Magnus is a beast but will get targeted so fair warning there.
I wouldn't make arhiman my warlord I would give that the one of the Deamon Princes, give that DP the Eatherstride trait, warptime, and demonic strength, then run it straight at the closest enemy target you can turn 1. This does 2 things, it puts something straight in their face not magnus that they must deal with and if you don't get first turn you still have this demonic missile that can't be targeted due to being a charecter.
Putting Temporal manipulation on the rubrics doesn't seem to make much sense to me, you can't bring rubrics back with it and is a reactive spell, meaning you need to wait until you have damage done before you can even cast it. I prefer firestorm of tzeench on mine for the extra mortal wound opportunitys.
You didn't give any of your deamon princes any of the good deamon spells, gaze of fate, Flickering flames, these are 2 very useful spells especially if you have a good target like a defiler or forgefiend to cast on.
Your list is close to the list I lost too this weekend, granted we were playing at 1500 pts, but still it's a powerful list. You may have trouble with holds though, tyrnaids could really cause issues to it. Keep in mind you can only cast a spell once a turn other than smite so once you cast weaver of fate and glamor of tzeench on magnus then anyone else with that spell can't cast it.
Thanks for the thoughts!
I thought about making a Prince the warlord and doing that trick, but, is it just not a free "slay the warlord" point? I also fear that certain dedicated gunlines would be able to kill it AND Magnus in the first turn, due to the Prince not having any protection. By taking Ahriman i essentially get a 3++ on him and Magnus (could just use that trait on a Prince too). Sure, it just makes Magnus the one and only target, but, i'd rather lose him and a rhino over him and a prince, if that makes sense?
The idea behind Temporal Manipulation on the 2 5 man squads is the following -
Both are in 1 rhino and advance up the table first turn with the princes and Magnus etc.
They will both be likely just casting normal 1 dmg smite anyway, having this spell allows me the chance of healing back some wounds on Magnus, a prince or a rhino should they survive, whilst not taking up a higher value power slot on one of the HQs. I have Gaze of Fate on one of the Princes. I could take it once more on a Rubric squad, but i'm not sure the redundancy would have that much value after the first couple of turns. This could be the totally wrong approach though!
I've not thought about adding in a Daemon engine, so i didn't really look at Flickering Flames. Not sure what adding one in would add to the list though. Most of what i went for in powers with the Princes were either for turn 1 utility, or to add to the mortal wound output later in the game. They will be the main source of destroying tanks etc, so anything to help bolster the output seemed like a good idea. Is it better to just drop Infernal Gaze and Infernal Gateway?
Yeah, the extras of certain spells are there for redundancy should Magnus or something go down early. I didn't think about nids though... I always forget about Shadow in the Warp and Kronos!!!! There doesn't seem to be much getting around that though :/
You may lose slay the warlord, but your trade off is so much more than that. By forcing your enemies hand first turn your dictating the flow of battle, and anything to keep shots away from magnus is worth it.
I understand the idea of using the rubrics as "repair" guys, no issues there, I just prefer to use the familiar stratagem to swap that power in turn 2 or 3 onto someone so it's where it needs to be when it needs to be used.
As for the dealing with swarms like nids it's why I like the defiler so much, it's an effective unit without needed to rely on spells to make it work, if you go cheap with it you can get some anti tank and anti melee from the unit. But in your list I dont know where you would find the points.
Remember, rubrics will reck most tyrnaid things when you shoot at them with numbers but won't do any better than a normal marine vs genestealers unless you get death hex off on them, and your going to have to get very close for that to work. In that situation you want to be hitting with a unit that is cheap but can put out a lot of shots, unfortunately we don't have many options for that in our lists besides trying to hit them with tzaangors before they hit us, and that's not an easy option.
Edit
If you allied in a Havoc detachment with 4 heavy bolters and put them in cover that would go a long way to deal with nids for your list. Again not sure you can find the points.
Azuza001 wrote: You may lose slay the warlord, but your trade off is so much more than that. By forcing your enemies hand first turn your dictating the flow of battle, and anything to keep shots away from magnus is worth it.
I understand the idea of using the rubrics as "repair" guys, no issues there, I just prefer to use the familiar stratagem to swap that power in turn 2 or 3 onto someone so it's where it needs to be when it needs to be used.
As for the dealing with swarms like nids it's why I like the defiler so much, it's an effective unit without needed to rely on spells to make it work, if you go cheap with it you can get some anti tank and anti melee from the unit. But in your list I dont know where you would find the points.
Remember, rubrics will reck most tyrnaid things when you shoot at them with numbers but won't do any better than a normal marine vs genestealers unless you get death hex off on them, and your going to have to get very close for that to work. In that situation you want to be hitting with a unit that is cheap but can put out a lot of shots, unfortunately we don't have many options for that in our lists besides trying to hit them with tzaangors before they hit us, and that's not an easy option.
Edit
If you allied in a Havoc detachment with 4 heavy bolters and put them in cover that would go a long way to deal with nids for your list. Again not sure you can find the points.
Thanks for the help! I’ll certainly take this info into consideration and see what I can do to round out the list!
Anyone feel as though Helm of the Third Eye and Doombolt were indirectly buffed? Everyone is trying to advance and charge and doombolt range is 24 inches - if you go first with the strat can get it go off on a 5/6 depending who is casting and other modifiers. Helm provides some additional CP support as everyone is using 15+ CP now.
To build on this slightly - it seems the troops are good but tzaangors took a slight nerf no longer being able to be warp timed so it comes down to an 8 inch charge with rerolls out of the warp/Dark matter crystal - supreme command looks attractive. Smite staying at 5 with doombolt, firestorm etc in the middle of a big blob of soup (Plaguebearers or 3++ horrors) seems attractive...
Doom bolt is very attractive, it can seriously slow a fast army down quick while putting out moral wounds. My issue with my list and the helm is the only person I can put it on is my warlord who is typically dead by turn 3 (he is a suicide dp of orky wargh) so I feel I waste it. But our tournaments are 1500 pts so yeah, there are ways to make it work and last.
What do you guys think about land raiders now? As a way to advance a unit up the field while still having serious firepower. Now that we don’t have to worry about things deepstriking and get a turn to breathe is it worth it? My list has a mutalith and defiler in it as well so it’s not the o my big target.
Worth it? Or should it’s job be diluted and made into a rhino and some other form of long range support?
demontalons wrote: What do you guys think about land raiders now? As a way to advance a unit up the field while still having serious firepower. Now that we don’t have to worry about things deepstriking and get a turn to breathe is it worth it? My list has a mutalith and defiler in it as well so it’s not the o my big target.
Worth it? Or should it’s job be diluted and made into a rhino and some other form of long range support?
4 lascannons on a 3+ after moving are 4 lascannons on a 3+ after moving, nobody denies that. Two questions pop in my mind though. In an army as expensive and elite as TS, what do you plan to remove to find landraider points? And two, what is your landraider going to carry? It's not fast enough to give you first turn close up, and if you are going for second turn, you could just deep strike instead. The only thing I find the landaider managing is giving us second turn warpflamer shooting, which deepstrike cannot do. But then again, your thing becomes so expensive that, at that point, you could as well just put Magnus on the table.
I want to like the land raider, I really really do, and they can be useful. But what are we putting into it that can't go in a rhino? Scarab occult? Not something I would put in the land raider.
I am a bigger fan of just going with rhinos and rubrics over a land raider.
Having said all of that land raiders are quite cool. It really comes down to if your opponent has an answer for one or not. A single Dev squad with 4 laz cannons and a cherub can kill a land raider in one turn. So if you are going to go that route make sure to target the stuff that will kill your big stuff first.
Has anyone been running mutalith at all? And if so what did you use them for? I currently have 150 points to spare in my list and can’t decide whether the mutalith is worth it or should I put in a las/ml helbrute for long range support to go with my 2 defilers
I ran one as a distraction carnifex and to block incoming assaults to my more important models. I used the aoe mortal wounds and hit 9 units, then used the strategem to roll one randomly, and got the same thing. That was well worth it.
Vortex beast is a monster. Putting out a mortal wound to every unit within 18" when it's below 8 wounds or making tzaangors get - 1ap bonus to there weapons, just he'll yes. I went 2 and 1 in a tournament last week with one, last game he was killing 5 enemy rubrics a turn due to my opponent running small 5 man squads. I don't think he will be doing that next time lol.
I am thinking of trying a lot of rubrics for my next tson game. I picked up 20 more for 50$ the other day from my FLGS and really am thinking 40 rubrics will be hard to move.
Gives me 2 five man squads for objective taking, a 10 man support in a rhino, and a large 20 man that I can move up using the dark matter crystal. One dp and arhiman sit with the defilers making them better and doing general shenanigans. Mutalith moves forward as well, distracting the enemy as the warlord runs up and punches the biggest target in its way hulk smash style. Also the list gives 9 drops so that should help get me 1st Turn.
You know that all Thousand sons get obsec Not only troop Choices. Brause the disciples of tzeentch give all Thousand Sons obsec. So You can Play enlightend an vortex beast or an hellforged contemptor or what ever You want to obsec. Thats One of the biggest strenghts of the sons.
I’m not sure what you’re gaining with the mutalith. There’s nothing in your army that really benefits from its buffs and I feel like it’s not quite good enough to be taken just for it’s mortal wound aoe. If you had tzaangors or tzeentch cc units I could see a use but I would drop it for some chaff clearing units.
A contemptor with butcher cannon and tlhb puts out 10 shots and is about the same price. Alternatively make a tzeentch detachment and grab some brimstone horrors to screen your big unit of rubrics. You’re still vulnerable to a turn 2 charge shenanigans from stuff like Khorne demons blood angels etc,
Arachnofiend wrote: That is... definitely false. Only troops choices get the Disciples of Tzeentch ability, I'm looking at the codex right now and that's what it says.
Iam looking too at the codex and there is written :"a Unit with this ability that is within range of an objectiv..."
There ja no limitationen on the troop choice
That's because it's under the abilities section which gives out who gets what.
ABILITIES
If your army is Battle-forged, PSYKER units in THOUSAND SONS Detachments gain the Brotherhood of Sorcerers ability. In addition, Troops units in THOUSAND SONS Detachments gain the Disciples of Tzeentch ability.
So nope, only troops get it.
I originally had a squad of tzaangors to get help from the mutalith but found they were never in range to get its boost due to getting moved by the crystal to a flank outside mutalith range.
Also it can help make the rubrics get -1 Ap if they get stuck in close combat, or make the deamon princes hit at - 3ap, or even make itself better. It would be better on a large unit that has multiple attacks but it can help make things better. Finally don't underestimate it's mortal wound output, opponents know it can be a beast and will gun for it making it a good distraction.
So, I submitted my list for the London GT last night, and thought I’d share it just so a lot of people can go into meltdown about some of the choices!
Battalion
Ahriman on disc
Daemon Prince, wings, 2 talons
Daemon Prince, wings, 2 talons
2x 5 Rubrics with bolters
1x 12 Cultists
1x Rhino with 2 combi bolters
Vanguard
Exalted Sorcerer on disc
1x 5 SoT with missile rack
2x Hellforged Contemptors with 1 Butcher cannon and 1 c-beam each.
Super Heavy
Magnus
Warlord is one of the Princes and will likely take Aetherstride. Exalted Sorcerer has the Helm relic and I’ll likely give the non-warlord prince the Crystal via 1 CP.
Very nice list, I like additional troops myself but I see what your doing and it should be quite successful. My only issue with exalted sorcerer on a disk is for a few more points you can get a deamon prince without wings, a much better unit in almost all instances. But I understand, I have an exalted with dual swords I keep wanting to use but those deamon princes are so nice!
Azuza001 wrote: Very nice list, I like additional troops myself but I see what your doing and it should be quite successful. My only issue with exalted sorcerer on a disk is for a few more points you can get a deamon prince without wings, a much better unit in almost all instances. But I understand, I have an exalted with dual swords I keep wanting to use but those deamon princes are so nice!
Tbh i didn't even think about a prince without wings Certainly something to look at for next time! Will see how the exalted performs though, and whether or not the other 2 princes do what i'm hoping. Would rather have 1 average performing exalted sorcerer than a 3rd prince that might not do much. That said, they are both going to be doing the same roll pretty much - giving re-roll 1's and buffing powers.
Yeah i'm a little thin on troops. If i was going to swap something out for more troops it would be the SoT, which we discussed. 10 more Rubrics or 5 terminators is a tough choice, but i went for the termies in the end simply as it was a free deepstrike as opposed to 1 cp. Might be the worst of the 2 choices, but i'll have to figure that out
There are some nasty lists going from what i can see (they've posted like 200 or so of the lists so far - some are 9 princes strong + magnus, others are masses of cultists etc). Will be a good challenge!
9 princes? Not using the new rules or are they bending the rules by taking 3 princes of tzeench, 3 princes of chaos, and 3 deamon prince from the chaos marines codex?
I mean, it's stupid to do it that way, but it's raw so.... Yeah.. Good luck, deamon princes are sweet. They are probably undercost, or other hqs are over priced.
Azuza001 wrote: Good luck, deamon princes are sweet. They are probably undercost, or other hqs are over priced.
Our Daemon prince is, of course, undercosted compared with the other versions. But it's really not that bad overall. Look at Celestine if you need to convince yourself : she's basically a Daemon prince with twice the wounds and regeneration for 200pts...
Only ever fought Celestine one, I was using dark angels at the time. Samuel ran her over with his land speeder after shooting at her point blank and just destroyed her. When she "came back" it wasn't near him lol.
Lost that game but I get your point. Our dp's are the best for sure.
Azuza001 wrote: 9 princes? Not using the new rules or are they bending the rules by taking 3 princes of tzeench, 3 princes of chaos, and 3 deamon prince from the chaos marines codex?
I mean, it's stupid to do it that way, but it's raw so.... Yeah.. Good luck, deamon princes are sweet. They are probably undercost, or other hqs are over priced.
Bending the rules for 3 princes, 3 princes of tzeentch from 1ksons and i think 3 princes of nurgle from DG.
I find it a little hard to follow all FaQ and changes sometimes. So short question: Can a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch use a Warpbolter and if yes what does it cost?
Battlescribe list it with 3 points, but i looked through the PDFs and did not find a clue, why.
I find it a little hard to follow all FaQ and changes sometimes. So short question: Can a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch use a Warpbolter and if yes what does it cost?
Battlescribe list it with 3 points, but i looked through the PDFs and did not find a clue, why.
It is an index option for the daemon prince and costs 3 points. However, now that I think about it, there is no index datasheet for “Daemon Prince of Tzeentch”, so you might not be able to take it as there is no index version to go back to. At work right now so can’t 100% check.
I personally opted not to take the bolter anyway, due to it not coming in the kit and I can see a day coming when indices get squatted.
elodingens wrote: Hi,
I find it a little hard to follow all FaQ and changes sometimes. So short question: Can a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch use a Warpbolter and if yes what does it cost?
Battlescribe list it with 3 points, but i looked through the PDFs and did not find a clue, why.
It can't, because the datasheets have different names (Daemon Prince / Daemon Prince of Tzeentch), as Kdash pointed out.
Yeah, anyone who tries to say you can take the warp bolter because the Tsons deamon prince is the upgraded deamon prince from the index tsons army but then also says the Tsons dp are a different name so you get 3 of them and 3 from the chaos deamons codex and 3 from the chaos marines codex needs to be slapped. There is bending to a "ok I can see that" then there is "dude your back is going to snap if you keep doing that.... " bending.
I am not suggesting your doing that I want to be clear, I have just had bad experiences with those kind of players who will do anything to get an advantage, it's not worth the head ache. :(
Besides, it's a warp bolter, big whoop. Tson dp's are still the best dp out there. We rock doomrider style lol.
So, I've been combing through the open lists for that upcoming london GT to see how tournament players have been using my favorite factions (see here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/756135.page) and the post-FAQ thousand sons lists are...unpredictable to say the very least.
Out of about 250 lists, Thousand Sons appear in 25, with 6 of those being pure or nearly pure thousand sons lists (less than 500 points of allied units). Predictably the massive majority feature Ahriman and the DPTz, the two obvious star units post-FAQ.
A few unpredictable things though:
1) the number of rubric squads total outnumbers the number of tzaangor squads total. Only 3 lists feature a large unit of tzaangors, despite the DMC still being usable post-FAQ.
2) Scarab occult terminators are vanishingly rare (appearing in only one list) while rubrics appear in 9 out of the 25 lists, and in every pure thousand son list that I can find.
3) Magnus seems to be making a heavy comeback, but who does not seem to be is Tzeentch daemons. Only 2 lists feature any Tzdaemon allies at all, which I would think would come along with Magnus to get him the 6++ from changeling vs turn 1 lascannons.
