Nym wrote: Guys, I'm completely lost with all those FAQs and Beta rules...
Can we use Warptime on a unit that was teleported with the Dark Matter Crystal ?? (if yes, can you point me to the FAQ that says so or explain clearly why we can ?)
The new beta rules didn't change anything in regards to the previous FAQ statements that preventing you from doing it.
So, no, you still can't warptime a unit that enters the battlefield in the same turn (DMC counts as leaving and re-entering the battlefield).
Think this is debatable - most major tournaments do allow this - i have hard wording in writing from NOVA that it was allowed in their tournament as I asked explicitly prior to be sure... So make of that what you will. But reading your reply again maybe you are agreeing as you noted re-entering...
ArtyomTrityak wrote: LOCUS OF CONJURATION
Tzeentch Daemons Stratagem
Sorcerous power surrounds Tzeentch’s chosen champions.
Use this Stratagem at the start of your Psychic phase. Select a TZEENTCH DAEMON CHARACTER from your
army – until the end of the phase you can re-roll any failed Psychic tests made for friendly TZEENTCH DAEMON units
within 6" of that model.
Question: Does it work for TSDPs? I have Daemons detachment so can for example Changeling use this one and give reroll to TSDPs?
FAQ ruled not in errata. The stratagems only work on codex daemons.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: LOCUS OF CONJURATION
Tzeentch Daemons Stratagem
Sorcerous power surrounds Tzeentch’s chosen champions.
Use this Stratagem at the start of your Psychic phase. Select a TZEENTCH DAEMON CHARACTER from your
army – until the end of the phase you can re-roll any failed Psychic tests made for friendly TZEENTCH DAEMON units
within 6" of that model.
Question: Does it work for TSDPs? I have Daemons detachment so can for example Changeling use this one and give reroll to TSDPs?
Yes in this instance you can. The target of the strat has to come from the deamons codex, but once the strat goes off its able to effect any tzeentch deamon within 6".
Well that was a shitshow. One question got the answers of “maybe, no, and yes”.
The correct answer is no. Check the FAQs. Daemons stratagems can only be used by units with the daemon faction keyword. Just like how magnus and mortarion cannot use the daemon codex deep strike even if it is “unlocked” by other daemon detachments.
Maxwell00 wrote: Well that was a shitshow. One question got the answers of “maybe, no, and yes”.
The correct answer is no. Check the FAQs. Daemons stratagems can only be used by units with the daemon faction keyword. Just like how magnus and mortarion cannot use the daemon codex deep strike even if it is “unlocked” by other daemon detachments.
You're right, the stratagem can only be used by a codex:daemon character. But that is what everyone has already been saying.
However, that stratagem then gives that codex:daemon character an aura that affects all tzeentch daemons. These don't need to be daemons from the codex:daemons, they can be any units with the <tzeentch> and <daemon> keywords.
Until GW comes out with an faq that says otherwise, this is how it works, as these models are being affected by an aura and not being the target of a stratagem.
Maxwell00 wrote: Well that was a shitshow. One question got the answers of “maybe, no, and yes”.
The correct answer is no. Check the FAQs. Daemons stratagems can only be used by units with the daemon faction keyword. Just like how magnus and mortarion cannot use the daemon codex deep strike even if it is “unlocked” by other daemon detachments.
You're right, the stratagem can only be used by a codex:daemon character. But that is what everyone has already been saying.
However, that stratagem then gives that codex:daemon character an aura that affects all tzeentch daemons. These don't need to be daemons from the codex:daemons, they can be any units with the <tzeentch> and <daemon> keywords.
Until GW comes out with an faq that says otherwise, this is how it works, as these models are being affected by an aura and not being the target of a stratagem.
Yep, which is why i said the target of the strat has to come from the deamon codex. Its just like the slaanesh or khorne loci, it can effect non-deamon codex units once its been activated. And ArtyomTrityak specifically said he has a deamon codex detachment and the target would be the changeling, so he is all good to make that work.
Maxwell00 wrote: Well that was a shitshow. One question got the answers of “maybe, no, and yes”.
The correct answer is no. Check the FAQs. Daemons stratagems can only be used by units with the daemon faction keyword. Just like how magnus and mortarion cannot use the daemon codex deep strike even if it is “unlocked” by other daemon detachments.
You're right, the stratagem can only be used by a codex:daemon character. But that is what everyone has already been saying.
However, that stratagem then gives that codex:daemon character an aura that affects all tzeentch daemons. These don't need to be daemons from the codex:daemons, they can be any units with the <tzeentch> and <daemon> keywords.
Until GW comes out with an faq that says otherwise, this is how it works, as these models are being affected by an aura and not being the target of a stratagem.
I disagree. FAQ says
Q: When a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Daemons uses the Daemon keyword, can it be used to affect any unit with the Daemon keyword, or only units with the Daemon Faction keyword?
A: These Stratagems can only affect units with the Daemon Faction keyword.
A non daemon faction unit would still be affected by the stratagem in this case. Nothing about being a “target” is mentioned.
Maxwell00 wrote: Well that was a shitshow. One question got the answers of “maybe, no, and yes”.
The correct answer is no. Check the FAQs. Daemons stratagems can only be used by units with the daemon faction keyword. Just like how magnus and mortarion cannot use the daemon codex deep strike even if it is “unlocked” by other daemon detachments.
You're right, the stratagem can only be used by a codex:daemon character. But that is what everyone has already been saying.
However, that stratagem then gives that codex:daemon character an aura that affects all tzeentch daemons. These don't need to be daemons from the codex:daemons, they can be any units with the <tzeentch> and <daemon> keywords.
Until GW comes out with an faq that says otherwise, this is how it works, as these models are being affected by an aura and not being the target of a stratagem.
I disagree. FAQ says
Q: When a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Daemons uses the Daemon keyword, can it be used to affect any unit with the Daemon keyword, or only units with the Daemon Faction keyword?
A: These Stratagems can only affect units with the Daemon Faction keyword.
A non daemon faction unit would still be affected by the stratagem in this case. Nothing about being a “target” is mentioned.
Depends where you define the end of an 'effect' I guess.
The stratagem is only directly affecting the Daemon, so that's fine.
The aura that the stratagem creates is then causing a knock-on effect on other daemons, some codex and some CSM.
For example:
AURA OF ACQUIESCENCE
Use this Stratagem at the start of any Fight phase. Select a SLAANESH DAEMON unit from your army – enemy units
within 3" of that unit reduce their Attacks characteristic by 1 (to a minimum of 1) until the end of that phase.
So according to your definition, only Codex: Daemons can be affected by auras caused by stratagems. So only enemies who are also Daemons would have their attacks reduced by 1.
If you see what I mean? Obviously that is not how this stratagem is meant to work, and so I would argue that the other stratagem works the same way.
AURA OF ACQUIESCENCE
Use this Stratagem at the start of any Fight phase. Select a SLAANESH DAEMON unit from your army – enemy units
within 3" of that unit reduce their Attacks characteristic by 1 (to a minimum of 1) until the end of that phase.
So according to your definition, only Codex: Daemons can be affected by auras caused by stratagems. So only enemies who are also Daemons would have their attacks reduced by 1.
If you see what I mean? Obviously that is not how this stratagem is meant to work, and so I would argue that the other stratagem works the same way.
You’re strawmanning my point, intentionally or otherwise. If aura of acquiescence said “enemy Slaanesh Daemon units within 3”” then you’d have a fair comparison. Because the previous stratagem we were discussing called out tzeentch daemons though, it’s a bit different. Regardless, it’s probably near the bottom of the growing list of confusingly written rules interactions. Pardon me while I review the rule book & FAQ, big faq 2, my codex & faq, chapter approved & faq to find an answer to something. All the while some things aren’t even centrally located (like the clarity on taking relics outside your warlords faction, which is in the death guard faq).
AURA OF ACQUIESCENCE
Use this Stratagem at the start of any Fight phase. Select a SLAANESH DAEMON unit from your army – enemy units
within 3" of that unit reduce their Attacks characteristic by 1 (to a minimum of 1) until the end of that phase.
So according to your definition, only Codex: Daemons can be affected by auras caused by stratagems. So only enemies who are also Daemons would have their attacks reduced by 1.
If you see what I mean? Obviously that is not how this stratagem is meant to work, and so I would argue that the other stratagem works the same way.
You’re strawmanning my point, intentionally or otherwise. If aura of acquiescence said “enemy Slaanesh Daemon units within 3”” then you’d have a fair comparison. Because the previous stratagem we were discussing called out tzeentch daemons though, it’s a bit different. Regardless, it’s probably near the bottom of the growing list of confusingly written rules interactions. Pardon me while I review the rule book & FAQ, big faq 2, my codex & faq, chapter approved & faq to find an answer to something. All the while some things aren’t even centrally located (like the clarity on taking relics outside your warlords faction, which is in the death guard faq).
I agree the rules are ambiguous at best, and at the end of the day it'll be down to how opponents and TO's decided to judge it. That's just the way I would rule it myself (and that's as someone who doesn't play that army, so it'd only be for opponents).
One of the main attractions to thousand sons besides the smite spam is having access to death hex.
Generally speaking a double thermal cannon Renegade Knight is just worse than a double gatling Knight. However when combining death hex with the double thermal cannon you can do some serious damage. Using the gaze of fate power you can reroll one of the d6's allowing you to get a good number of shots off.
Barnie25 wrote: One of the main attractions to thousand sons besides the smite spam is having access to death hex.
Generally speaking a double thermal cannon Renegade Knight is just worse than a double gatling Knight. However when combining death hex with the double thermal cannon you can do some serious damage. Using the gaze of fate power you can reroll one of the d6's allowing you to get a good number of shots off.
Is this something or is it too cute?
Maybe if you want to go lord of war hunting, but honestly it's too many hoops to jump through.
Disagree, I think it's a solid tactic. I've used double thermal a few times, and death hex at 18" with +3 is pretty easy to achieve. Fill your boots, I say.
I have started a big post over at reddit with wall of text on my noobish thought on competitive Thousand Sons list. I hope you guys would like to check it out maybe even comment on something
Hey guys, quick questions for you. How many CPs do you generally start with in a 2000pts army?
While I'm working on my army and doing theorical army lists (nothing competitive, I go with units I like the look off mostly), I usually have the 3 base + 5 for a battalion, and I could squeeze another 1pt detachment in there depending on what I put in.
Opponent also usually have around 8-10 CPs, so would you say the Helm relic is a good choice to use (probably need to spend 1cp to get it in the first place)?
9 is roughly the standard for a more elite force that doesn't have good options for extremely cheap HQ's, assuming you're not souping in another faction that can provide those. Personally I'd say the Helm is worth investing one CP in, you're more or less guaranteed to at least get that back and you're quite likely to get additional value. I don't think it's quite as good as the Dark Matter Crystal, so don't put the Helm in your list and just remember to declare you're using the stratagem to pay for it unless there's a different relic you might want that game (against armies with a very high leadership statistic like Necrons the power sword can be quite strong, for example).
Normally 13 or 14 here, but i also normally ally in deamons to my tson army. Thankfully you dont need to with tsons though, cultists are great if you have that many guys to use and our hq's are top notch. Tzaangors are gold too. 2 squads of cultists of decent size and a good size tzaangor mob is easy and cheap to get.
So, i usually end up with around 9CP like others. I don't tend to go for cultist spam just for CP, though, i could if i wanted to.
My 1750 list for this weekends Blood And Glory is a battalion and a Vanguard. It's a pretty different list but something i've wanted to try for a while - though i did give in an buy some Tzaangors.
grouchoben wrote: Unless I'm going for drop efficiency, I have 13cps in my Sons lists normally. There's no HQ tax for Thousand Sons - they're our best units.
You're right that it's not a tax, since TSHQ's are all pretty excellent (hell, even the relatively "bad" Exalted Sorcerer is plenty playable). They're still quite expensive and getting Guard-like CP numbers is prohibitive unless you're literally just running the HQ's and cultists/tzaangors.
Ok so outside of souping a bit or doing some cultist spam, 8-9 CP seems to be the norm, good to know! I'll definitely try the Helm whenever I start to play with the army to see how it perform!
On the Computer 40k Facebook page some people seem to think that you can't DMC and Warp time because DMC operates as reserves. But you can still move out of the deployment zone.
Virules wrote: On the Computer 40k Facebook page some people seem to think that you can't DMC and Warp time because DMC operates as reserves. But you can still move out of the deployment zone.
It’s confusing as hell right now, because of all the wording changes in all the different faqs.
Generally you can’t use warptime on units that arrive from reserve that turn, but, right now the confusion is around “do units that “leave and re-enter” the battlefield count as reserves?” Some faq sections and people say yes, others say no.
My current understanding is that you can use the DMC on turn one, but you can't use the DMC and warptime. Which means that the DMC both does and does not work like coming from reserves. It is all very confusing.
That's how I take it too Arachnofiend. My current list has a maximum Tzaangor blob and a max-unit Enilightened with spears blob - the flerd gets the DMC, the Enlightened get the warptime, both are odds-on for a 1st turn charge.
I feel like it should either act as reserves, or not. If it does, then you can't use it on turn one. If it doesn't, then you can warp time after. But it should be consistent across the board with da jump, gate of infinity, etc.
So, I took a very different list to my normal Thousand Sons list to Blood and Glory over the weekend. Needless to say, it was a test weekend and I’ll definitely be changing some things. It was a 1750 event.
Spoiler:
List was –
Battalion
Ahirman on Disc
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc
12 Cultists
11 Cultists
10 Rubrics with 1 Cannon
30 Tzaangors with Horn
6 Enlightened with Bows
Vanguard
Daemon Prince on foot
10 Terminators with 2 cannons and 2 missiles
Shaman
Shaman
Missions were an unusual mixed of Eternal War and Maelstrom (as in, not the regular combinations and missions you see)
So, first game was against Drukari/Craftworlds soup list and a top player. Was an interesting game. I opted to test out webwaying the Tzaangors and 1 Shaman and DMCing the Terminators. Worked reasonably well and I killed a couple of Talos and some Wracks etc, but, I then failed hard on my Terminator saves and lost 6 instantly to shooting…. The other 4 died in combat with 4 Talos and characters. Tzaangor bomb came in turn 2, charged and killed his Archon WL and left a Ravager on 1 wound after fighting twice. Needless to say they died pretty much instantly after. After that I couldn’t really do a great deal, and fell behind massively on maelstrom due to my card draw going against me initially and not being able to discard due to the maelstrom mission rules (Sealed Orders). I was essentially tabled by turn 4, but, went to 7 turns due to him doing the right thing and chasing objectives and points instead of killing the last cultist squad til late on.
Mission 2 included the Recon mission….
I was playing against 3 Stormsurges, 1 Riptide, 1 fusion commander, pathfinders and 2 marksmen. He got first turn and got everything but his commander on the table and had units on every board edge except my DoW side. My turn 1, I rolled 4 1’s and a 2 so only ended up getting 3 units on the table (he’d shot everything else off the table with his outflanking Stormsurges in his turn). At the end of turn 7, I had 2 Enlightened left alive and he had 1 Stormsurge on 13 wounds left. I lost the game by 6 or 7 points overall, so ended up losing 25-5.
Game 3, played Necrons with Praetorians, Destroyers, a Stalker and a big block of jetbikes. I DMC’d the Tzaangors this game and they failed to kill 3 of the 6 destroyers due to the terrain (my fault here really – couldn’t get enough into combat to make a difference). He then wiped them off the table, even using his Veil of Darkness to get everything but his scarabs into range to kill the Tzaangors. The terminators did a fair amount of work this game, but, due to terrain and their 4” move I couldn’t keep up. Another close game points wise, but, another 25-5 loss. Might have been slightly different if I had got first turn, but, hey ho.
Day 2 and Game 4, I played a Raven Guard army with a Storm Raven. Unfortunately in a Marines v Marines battle, ap -2 and +1 to my saves and VotlW stratagem wins. He did get unlucky in regards to him failing hard to kill the terminators for 2 turns, and putting my Prince down to 1 wounds twice, but, by that point I still had all my other smites, tzaangor blobs etc alive and had full control of the table. 30-0 win after tabling him, but I feel like with a few changes to his list and deployment I’d probably have struggled to get so much control. I also DMC’d the Terminators this game as I wanted to remove his Aggressors and Hellblasters straight away, or as much of them as possible.
Game 5, played vs World Eaters. Same deal as game 5, but DMC’d the Tzaangors. I got first turn so the Tzaangors charged his Beserkers Rhinos killing 1 of them. He wiped the Tzaangors out easily straight after with combat, but it now meant he had to run at all my guns. It did give me another reason to look at picking up a couple of Soulburner Decimators for this army though, as he had 2 of them and they did what they could to try and hold things back, but, it was just too much for them. A second 30-0 win.
All in all, I have no idea where I placed, as the full results haven’t been published outside of the top 3 for the awards, but, as a test event it went reasonably well, especially considering some of the missions combinators we played. There was only 1 game (the first 1) were I didn’t get 24+ points for Maelstrom and Eternal War combined.
Would I take this again? Probably a resounding no, unless CA (supposedly now set for a late November release) changes things for Rubrics and Scarab Terminators. 472 points for 10 Terminators hurts a little, especially when I could instead get another 2 30 man Tzaangor blobs + spare points (if I went in that direction). I still like the idea of the Terminators, but, I think I might go back to a 5-man squad or just remove them for the next test. DEFINITELY going to make sure I find the points to give the Prince wings though. 100% regret not doing that in the first place.
I’m thinking double battalion, essentially replacing the terminators and rubrics with 2 decimators and another exalted sorcerer. My only concern is that I go from pretty good horde clearance (8 -2ap stormbolters and 2 str 5 -3 cannons in the terminator squad) to not really having any mass fire at all.
Once the results are known, I’ll update, but, I think there is only a slim chance of my being in the top half (though there was a fair amount of draws) but I expect to be just outside of the top half.
I’m happy I tested this idea at an event though, and I do think it’ll work significantly better at 2000 points as I can pick up additional threats with only a couple of minor changes.
Nice read. Sorry to hear it went so sideways in those first games. I find scarab occult terms to just not be any good competitively. They just cost too much, for 400 pts you could drop a 20 man squad of regular rubrics and get more milage, not that thats much better in a competitive situation. Still i like running 2 squads of 10 rubrics and a large tzaangor squad for my main force.
10 SOTs is a balsy tournament choice, I applaud you sir. I noticed little reference to your rubrics in the report, did they do much of anything? I'll be honest, when the new CSMs drop I'll be pulling the trigger on a zerker WE batallion straight out of the gate, as I've pretty much lost all faith in TS marines at this point, outside of HQs. I'll still keep a single 5-man squad to trigger Ahriman's +3 cast, and for a support cast, but they achieve so little that I'm benching them in favour of a few party buses of zerky boys. Tried to avoid souping my Sons up til this point, but I think it's time.
I have had some luck with 10 man squads of rubrics in local tournament play, normally going 2-0-1 when i run them. Put them in cover up front and they can hold ground very well.
But they fall for the same issue all of the 4 special god marines have, too expensive for their use in a game heavy in the mass mob mentality.
To be fair, i think i prefer the 10 SOT over the 20 Rubrics, simply because of the 2 missile racks you can get and the baseline 2+ save. The only downside right now is the fact that they are a magnet for 2+ or d3/d6 damage weapons - but, that said, the Rubrics are exactly the same, especially as my list doesn't really give many target options initially, as it's either shoot the Terminators/Tzaangors (whichever is on the table), shoot the Rubrics or shoot the 6 Enlightened. The Cultists are an afterthought and the rest is characters. Another thing the 10 SOT have over the 20 Rubrics is that they can naturally deep strike, or, if i choose to DMC them, they have a massively smaller footprint in terms of hiding them, over the 20 Rubrics. Which also comes into play if you do webway the 20 Rubrics, as getting them all 9" away and in rapid fire of the priority target(s) is a challenge. With the SOT you only have to get 8 in rapid fire as the other 2 are rocking the cannons and missiles.
As for what they did, they were very reasonable vs t3 and t4 models and provided a nice screen for a couple of characters, but, at 220 points i think they only made their points back twice. They did provide a bit of a distraction at times, but i don't really feel that they did much more than what a squad of 20 Cultists could have done, which is a real shame. That said though, a big reason for that was the missions and the armies i played against. Give me power armour, T'au infantry, Orks or hundreds of Cultists/Guardsmen and i'd take the Rubrics every single day of the week (well, potentially another 5 SOT instead).
My last game vs the World Eaters, i went first and so the party rhinos stalled in his deployment zone. Even if he went first and rushed up the table, i would have been extremely confident in just smite killing 1 rhino, putting a few wounds on the other and then popping it with shooting before rapid firing the Zerkers with -2 and then charging with the Tzaangors. But, i'm with you on the whole wanting to keep things pure for now.
One other thing i'd change, is i wouldn't have made Ahriman the warlord (was locked in after list submission). I'd have probably preferred another character getting the +1 to cast.
I can see 3 or 4 screening 5-man squads of Rubrics doing ok IF they can sit in cover, but, i find that they can't really jump from cover to cover that much, and a lot of the time, unless you move the characters forward you could be missing out on 2, or maybe 3 turns of smite damage while they sit back and shoot them off the table.
I'm glad i made the choice to try the ideas out and will certainly try them out again at a more "standard" event, but i think i need to do a bit more planning before making that choice.
Yea, I often run scarab bombs...
They almost never work. unless I manage to triple-buff them (prescience, weaver AND glamour) they are getting swatted without doing nearly enough damage beforehand.
I wish CA would improve them, or the rubrics. because as long as I am unwilling to run goats (I just hate the models to the death, and can't figure a good alternative to enlightened, so I just run daemon horde as support) this army is rather lacking...
Well, my two new xiphons are in the workshop right now, I wonder how they'll pan out in-game
This was the first time I’d run goatmen as well, as, like you, I just didn’t want to include them previously. If I use them again, I think it’d have to be 2 units of 30 and a larger/2 smaller enlightened squads. Just 1 unit of Tzaangors felt distinctly underwhelming in pretty much all 5 games.
Could someone provide rundown of defensive buffs Magnus can get? Sorry about spying like that
I think he can get either 3++ or -1 to hit(I'm soooo praying for the -1 to hit) but needs to start to have it from get-go so guess spell? Anything other?
Weaver of fates, +1 to invuln - wc6
Glamour of tzeentch, -1 to hit - wc7
Changeling, 9" 6+ fnp bubble
Gaze of fate, reroll a dice before your next psychic turn - wc 5
Ok. Glamour doesn't concern me(hit on unmodified 5+). Weaver is more of annoyance so if I go 2nd I won't one shot the thing with one unit barring some sick dice rolling and 2nd unit will then suffer from glamour.
If I go first(40% odds) there's slight chance I could even one shot the big boy with 1 unit then(rolling two 3 on d3 with 1 CP reroll available and then rest going as average or slightly under. If I get 3+2 it's veery slight over average needed for rest). Good to know. I might be facing him in future. Good to know that while he's certainly tough he's not invincible! And there's still the 80 tzaangor's and rest of flying circuit to worry about...
And for record unit in question is going to be 15 bad moon lootas. d3 shots per guy, reroll 1's to hit, more dakka strategem so hit on 5+ unmodified(so they can be hidded out of LOS and da jumped out and who cares) with extra shots at 5+ with S7, -1, D2 and then do the whole thing again once more so you could end up with 90 shots, rerolling 1's, hit on 5+ period and each hit is extra shot. Something for you to keep in mind if you see bunch of yellow orks with big guns on their shoulders around. It's going to require some luck but average result is going to be 10 wounds and spare vs 3++, 15.5 against 4++.
grouchoben wrote: Weaver of fates, +1 to invuln - wc6
Glamour of tzeentch, -1 to hit - wc7
Changeling, 9" 6+ fnp bubble
Gaze of fate, reroll a dice before your next psychic turn - wc 5
You forgot Boon of Mutation, which has 1/3 chance of making him Toughness 8 (or 1/2 if you use a re-roll). It's actually a great defensive buff against armies with lots of S4 / S7 weapons.
grouchoben wrote: Weaver of fates, +1 to invuln - wc6
Glamour of tzeentch, -1 to hit - wc7
Changeling, 9" 6+ fnp bubble
Gaze of fate, reroll a dice before your next psychic turn - wc 5
You forgot Boon of Mutation, which has 1/3 chance of making him Toughness 8 (or 1/2 if you use a re-roll). It's actually a great defensive buff against armies with lots of S4 / S7 weapons.
That would def fit the bill here with S7 lootas. That thing could be tough one to deal with if he goes first...Maybe go for ignore him and blow the army apart(or at least try)
edit: Though isn't your math bit off? 6/36 you get 7 for pick, 3/36 you get +1T for 9/36 which is 1/4. Also command reroll is reroll one dice so you can only reroll one of the 2 dice(and not sure would opponent risk rerolling both anyway losing Magnus 1/18 times!). Or does Magnus have some special bonus for the spell?
So I've heard two things I am not quite understanding about tsons play!
First is that tsons can smite more effectively than other armies; is this just because of the 6" bonus distance or do they somehow ignore the smite penalty?
Also, everyone seems to love tsons defilers, anything that makes them better than normal CSM ones?
drakerocket wrote: So I've heard two things I am not quite understanding about tsons play!
First is that tsons can smite more effectively than other armies; is this just because of the 6" bonus distance or do they somehow ignore the smite penalty?
Also, everyone seems to love tsons defilers, anything that makes them better than normal CSM ones?
Check the FAQ's, Thousand Sons (as well as Grey Knights) have a specific exemption to Psychic Focus that allows them to ignore the usual stacking difficulty of smite.
I'm not that keen on TSons defilers myself, but the reason people tend to hype them up is because you get both the CSM (Daemonforge) and the Chaos Daemons (Flickering Flames) buffs that can be applied to it in one faction. It's definitely better than anyone else's defiler but IME it's still not an effective unit and I'd rather put those buffs on something that stands on its own.
Saw someone on discord getting angry that someone would dare take rubrics instead of tzaangors because apparently they think rubrics are completely useless. Was mildly amusing.
Rubrics are expensive and not point efficient, same as scarab occult terms. However that doesn't make them not useful, and if played right they can be a serious pain in the ass to deal with. They have a different job than tzaangors, plop 10 rubrics in cover on an objective and they become very hard to remove to small arms fire. Tzaangors would be easy to deal with for that job, but then again thats not their job. Tzaangors are shock troopers and charecter hunters.
Had a game at a tournament recently where my opponent used that damn assassin that nulls psycic powers and can only be hit on a 6. He started him right in the middle of the board for optimal annoyance. So i warp timed my tzaangors to him and charged, getting 13 into cc. He got wiped out easy because even though i hit on 6's tzaangors reroll failed hits vs chrs. Between that and the strat to fight twice buh bye assassin. Rubrics couldn't do that.
So its all about battlefield rolls and what you want to use them for.
They're night and day, right? Viable vs bleeding-edge competitive. Rubrics have a few things they can do well, and they fill a troop slot. Tzaangors are a terror and can ruin someone's day.
Yep, but rubrics can also scare an opponent into making mistakes. Just played a 2500 pt game (wanted to test a few things out for a tournament next week) and i used 50 rubrics in the list. When i placed them down as my main "area control" squad my opponent (playing orks) got real worried, kept saying "50 rubrics.... jesus..... how am i supposed to deal with all that... damn.... i hate rubrics...."
Ended up winning game, lost 30 of the 50 throughout the game, but he didnt have much left at the end and nothing left that could get close and hurt the rubrics.
Large squads make people nervous. I could see running 2 squads of 20 rubrics and 2 squads of 30 tzaangors as a troops on the ground list. Warptime can help keep the rubrics moving and dmc can put a squad of tzaangors into cc range real quick.
I agree with a lot of the points here – both negative and positive in favour of things like Rubric squads.
If you plan on using a big squad of 20 Rubric, then, based off my experience I’d only run 1 squad of them total. Yes, they can be a massive pain to deal with for a lot of people, but they also have a few issues with them.
1. They are slow. Yes, you can DMC them or Webway them, but, after that, on terrain heavy tables they often find themselves out of position after the initial strike. Unfortunately, it all put forces you into taking Warptime, which I’ve found recently, can be more of a hinderance at times. Webway also has the additional impact of it forcing you to wait til turn 2 before you can do anything.
2. Any form of AP hurts them, 1 damage weapon or not. At the end of the day, they are a 1W, T4 model that sometimes gets a 2+ save outside of cover (likely won’t be getting it at all for a 20-man squad). The moment AP -1 comes into play though, they die just like any other marine, which is unfortunately, far too quickly.
3. They are a small-mid ranged unit, with fantastic bolters, but, hurt the moment they get tagged in combat. Sure, they can tarpit a unit, but, often it can feel like they are the unit being tarpitted themselves.
There are a few bonuses over spamming Tzaangors though.
1. In most instances, a 30-man Tzaangor unit goes in, kills what it charges and then generally dies in your opponent’s next turn. A couple of Rubric squads in support of said bomb, really goes a long way to giving you some additional support after the 1st charge.
2. They can be reasonably good screens for a character or 2 (not talking points effective etc etc etc here). I’ve often found that the amount of firepower an opponent needs to dedicate to killing a 10-man Rubric screen is far far greater than what they need to remove Cultists or Tzaangors. Also, there are often “more important” units on the table that require that firepower as well, giving you a slight advantage in regards to forcing your opponent’s target priority.
3. I still maintain that 10 SOT is worth way more than 20 Rubrics though. The deep strike alone really helps them, but, they are even slower than the Rubrics and can quickly become out of position against fast armies.
At the end of the day, there are a lot of counters out there in a tournament setting to Rubric and SOT units, but, when they have the ability to strike first (especially the SOT), they have the ability to drastically change a game by allowing you to force your opponent’s hand, at least for a couple of turns.
I'm slightly biased by having shifted to Deathwatch as my primary army when their codex dropped.
I'm very used to SIA stormbolter marines getting tasty rerolls and 3++ saves, twice the firepower of a Rubric, with two/three times the CC attacks as Rubrics, for the same price. Their ammo can mimic warpfire, or they can switch to wounding DPs, Guilly, Riptides on 2s, as the occasion arises.
And these guys aren't even a very competitive choice; they just cost too much. They outclass Rubrics in every way, at the same price point, are infinitely more flexible in loadout, can teleport around the place, withdraw from cc and still shoot, be immune to morale: you name it, you can build it. But they never see top table play, and I'd never take more than 10, maybe 15, in a list.
My point being Rubrics are wayyy off killteams in terms of efficiency, meaning they're wayyy off being competitive, let alone top-table material. (Unlike Tzaangors)
Azuza001 wrote: Yep, but rubrics can also scare an opponent into making mistakes. Just played a 2500 pt game (wanted to test a few things out for a tournament next week) and i used 50 rubrics in the list. When i placed them down as my main "area control" squad my opponent (playing orks) got real worried, kept saying "50 rubrics.... jesus..... how am i supposed to deal with all that... damn.... i hate rubrics...."
Ended up winning game, lost 30 of the 50 throughout the game, but he didnt have much left at the end and nothing left that could get close and hurt the rubrics.
Large squads make people nervous. I could see running 2 squads of 20 rubrics and 2 squads of 30 tzaangors as a troops on the ground list. Warptime can help keep the rubrics moving and dmc can put a squad of tzaangors into cc range real quick.
Orks are a specific case of an army that relies heavily on AP0 D1 whackin' sticks to do the heavy lifting. Rubrics are a lot better if you can assume they have a 2+ save more often than not. Problem is there aren't very many armies you can expect that from.
Arachnofiend wrote: My current understanding is that you can use the DMC on turn one, but you can't use the DMC and warptime. Which means that the DMC both does and does not work like coming from reserves. It is all very confusing.
Can you explain the rules here? Played in a tournament yesterday against TSons who insisted that the most recent FAQ changed some wording so that DMC-Warptime works on the same unit.
Not sure what your opponent is getting that from. None of the tactical reserves changes in the most recent FAQ addressed the relationship between the DMC and warptime.
Arachnofiend wrote: Not sure what your opponent is getting that from. None of the tactical reserves changes in the most recent FAQ addressed the relationship between the DMC and warptime.
Can you state using rules why this is an illegal combo?
That way I can explain it if it comes up again.
Arachnofiend wrote: My current understanding is that you can use the DMC on turn one, but you can't use the DMC and warptime. Which means that the DMC both does and does not work like coming from reserves. It is all very confusing.
is simple you can use dmc turn1 to teleport EVERYWHERE the unit, then you just CANT warptime is same turn doesn't seem so confusing, is what they wanted to avoid easy 1st turn charges.
The guy is dead wrong. Here's the relevant passages from the FAQ:
1 Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons? A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements. ... 2 Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason e.g... because of a psychic power such as Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline[?] A: No.
... DMC clearly falls under the range of abilities referred to in 1, and 2 clearly forbids further movement that turn for units that are effected by such powers.
I think the “confusion/gamey attempts” all come down to what is, and isn’t, classed as “reinforcements” and/or “reserves” based on the wording of the latest FAQ doc.
I agree 100% though that the intention remains that they cannot warptime after DMC.
I’ll try to find the references shortly, but I think it’s just another case of GWs inability to use consistent terminology.
grouchoben wrote: The guy is dead wrong. Here's the relevant passages from the FAQ:
1
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the
battlefield as reinforcements.
...
2
Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason e.g... because of a psychic power such as Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline[?]
A: No.
... DMC clearly falls under the range of abilities referred to in 1, and 2 clearly forbids further movement that turn for units that are effected by such powers.
1
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.
While I can find this question/answer in the old FAQ, I cannot find it in the most recent FAQ. I think your info is outdated. Here's how it reads in the most current rules.
Big FAQ 2 wrote:
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes.
There's no mention any longer of treating them as reinforcements, so your #2 quote, which directly applies to reinforcements ("such a unit" = one that has been " set up on the battlefield as reinforcements"), does not apply.
Can someone else give this rules quandry a try? It appears my opponent was correct and you are allowed to DMC a unit and subsequently Warptime that same unit.
To be fair, i can't find the reference to it anymore either, within the FAQ documents.
The only other source i can think of right now, is possibily that whole facebook picture thing they did. (but i don't think that said anything about it iirc)
So, currently, RAW, as per the updated FAQs, it appears we can DMC and Warptime that unit of Tzaangors, so, even a double 1 won't fail the charge.
Uh... huh. Yeah, I completely missed that change when the FAQ came out. So the DMC is no longer considered to be reinforcements... Well, that certainly makes things less confusing if nothing else.
Kdash wrote: I agree with a lot of the points here – both negative and positive in favour of things like Rubric squads.
If you plan on using a big squad of 20 Rubric, then, based off my experience I’d only run 1 squad of them total. Yes, they can be a massive pain to deal with for a lot of people, but they also have a few issues with them.
1. They are slow. Yes, you can DMC them or Webway them, but, after that, on terrain heavy tables they often find themselves out of position after the initial strike. Unfortunately, it all put forces you into taking Warptime, which I’ve found recently, can be more of a hinderance at times. Webway also has the additional impact of it forcing you to wait til turn 2 before you can do anything.
2. Any form of AP hurts them, 1 damage weapon or not. At the end of the day, they are a 1W, T4 model that sometimes gets a 2+ save outside of cover (likely won’t be getting it at all for a 20-man squad). The moment AP -1 comes into play though, they die just like any other marine, which is unfortunately, far too quickly. 3. They are a small-mid ranged unit, with fantastic bolters, but, hurt the moment they get tagged in combat. Sure, they can tarpit a unit, but, often it can feel like they are the unit being tarpitted themselves.
Only to a point, though, right? IIRC, All is Dust improves both a Rubric's normal and invulnerable saves. So (assuming Weaver and/or Glamour aren't buffing the Rubric), against an AP0 D1 weapon, a Rubric has a 2+/4++ save. Against an AP-1 D1 weapon, a Rubric still has a better saving throw than a normal MEQ (3+ vs 4+), and against AP-2 D1 or higher (if there are any weapons like that), the Rubric will still get a 4++, while other MEQs would basically be toast.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Quick question: Let's say you put Ahriman on a Disc, and then buff Ahriman with the +1 Strength and -1 AP effects from a Mutalith. Do those buffs also affect the Disc's Blades? I'm inclined to say no, but I just wanted to check.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I know that regular Tzaangors, Enlightened, and Shamans have 40k rules (at least, I know that regular Tzaangors do), but do Skyfires do as well?
They do. Instead of being different datasheets Enlightened in 40k can take bows and therefore represent the Skyfire model.
Kdash wrote: I agree with a lot of the points here – both negative and positive in favour of things like Rubric squads.
If you plan on using a big squad of 20 Rubric, then, based off my experience I’d only run 1 squad of them total. Yes, they can be a massive pain to deal with for a lot of people, but they also have a few issues with them.
1. They are slow. Yes, you can DMC them or Webway them, but, after that, on terrain heavy tables they often find themselves out of position after the initial strike. Unfortunately, it all put forces you into taking Warptime, which I’ve found recently, can be more of a hinderance at times. Webway also has the additional impact of it forcing you to wait til turn 2 before you can do anything.
2. Any form of AP hurts them, 1 damage weapon or not. At the end of the day, they are a 1W, T4 model that sometimes gets a 2+ save outside of cover (likely won’t be getting it at all for a 20-man squad). The moment AP -1 comes into play though, they die just like any other marine, which is unfortunately, far too quickly. 3. They are a small-mid ranged unit, with fantastic bolters, but, hurt the moment they get tagged in combat. Sure, they can tarpit a unit, but, often it can feel like they are the unit being tarpitted themselves.
Only to a point, though, right? IIRC, All is Dust improves both a Rubric's normal and invulnerable saves. So (assuming Weaver and/or Glamour aren't buffing the Rubric), against an AP0 D1 weapon, a Rubric has a 2+/4++ save. Against an AP-1 D1 weapon, a Rubric still has a better saving throw than a normal MEQ (3+ vs 4+), and against AP-2 D1 or higher (if there are any weapons like that), the Rubric will still get a 4++, while other MEQs would basically be toast.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Quick question: Let's say you put Ahriman on a Disc, and then buff Ahriman with the +1 Strength and -1 AP effects from a Mutalith. Do those buffs also affect the Disc's Blades? I'm inclined to say no, but I just wanted to check.
They are more durable against AP on 1 damage weapons than regular marines, but, the point I was making was that a 3+ save with 1 wound, still results in marines dying quickly. The moment you’re forced to start making 3+ or 4+/4++ saving throws, you’re already losing models that you can’t really afford to lose, especially at 20 ppm. Rate of fire is such a big factor in 8th ed right now, and marine statlines just can’t cope with it very well. Rubrics have the advantage of being able to blob up to a squad of 20, and thus requires a hell of a lot of fire to be focused their way, but, on the flip side of that, they become a more viable target for that amount of dedication – whereas you can easily expect to just blow up a tac squad without a second thought, due to it only being 5 models strong.
A prime example of expectation and reality is squads of Vanguard Vets with stormshields, so they rock the set 3++. Yes, they can be a complete pain to remove when they are squads of 8-10 but they still get removed from the table far quicker than they reasonably should do.
Since charging is two dice, you can use Gaze to reroll one and the stratagem to reroll the other. Gotta be real unlucky to want to burn both of your rerolls on an 8" charge, but if you need it...
Gaze of Fate states you can reroll a dice Roll, Not reroll a single die. AS you Need to use the cp reroll (which states you can reroll a dice) first per faq, i think you need decide to use cp Roll for one die or Gaze of Fate to reroll the whole Charge Roll
I see how you guys are reading it, i read it as a single dice roll ment 1 dice. My local meta runs it that way as well (both other tzeentch players have been playing it as 1 dice roll). I will bring it up with them and see what we decide as a group.
I mean, if its interpreted the way your talking the word single doesn't even need to be in the sentence at all because it would mean the same thing.
Yeah, after looking at it more its a single dice roll, as in one. I talked to a few others and everyone i have talked to (granted just local meta guys) say the same thing, it says single, its one.
grouchoben wrote: A power that allows you to reroll a single dice? I think I'll take that to mean it allows you to reroll a single dice.
It doesn't say "a single dice" but "a single dice ROLL". I'm not a native english speaker that's why I asked about it in YMDC, but the more I read it the more it feels obvious to me - based on the errata / FAQ - that we're meant to re-roll both dice for a charge roll (and maybe even Psychic test).
There's a rumor circulating that the GKs are getting normal Smite back. I wonder if the same is in the offing for Aspiring Sorcerers. It'd certainly go some way towards incentivizing more use of Rubrics.
MSU Rubrics would still hold up due to Morale, but no I don't think it'll change for Aspiring Sorcerers. The fact that GK can literally use it with each model is where the issue stems from. If the GK gets buffed considerably, their ability to spam mortal wounds will far exceed any reasonable measure.
Brian888 wrote: There's a rumor circulating that the GKs are getting normal Smite back. I wonder if the same is in the offing for Aspiring Sorcerers. It'd certainly go some way towards incentivizing more use of Rubrics.
The question is if all GK units are getting normal smite or if it's just the HQ's. If it's the former then Rubrics will probably share in the wealth, but if it's the latter then they're just buffing GK's into parity with us.
Brian888 wrote: There's a rumor circulating that the GKs are getting normal Smite back. I wonder if the same is in the offing for Aspiring Sorcerers. It'd certainly go some way towards incentivizing more use of Rubrics.
The question is if all GK units are getting normal smite or if it's just the HQ's. If it's the former then Rubrics will probably share in the wealth, but if it's the latter then they're just buffing GK's into parity with us.
The rumors suggest that it's going to be a change to Rites of Banishment, which seems to mean that it'll be an army-wide change for the GKs.
1
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.
While I can find this question/answer in the old FAQ, I cannot find it in the most recent FAQ. I think your info is outdated. Here's how it reads in the most current rules.
Big FAQ 2 wrote:
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes.
There's no mention any longer of treating them as reinforcements, so your #2 quote, which directly applies to reinforcements ("such a unit" = one that has been " set up on the battlefield as reinforcements"), does not apply.
Can someone else give this rules quandry a try? It appears my opponent was correct and you are allowed to DMC a unit and subsequently Warptime that same unit.
just because the "treat them as reinforcements" was removed does not change the fact that they are still considered reinforcements.
they where considered reinforcements before either of these where put into the faq. pointing out that this has changed is irrelevant, because if i was a new player and went to view the faq their is no way for me to view the old faq from gw's page and have this prior knowledge.
reinforcements are clearly defined in the main rule book, as being setup on the battlefield mid turn. and different from tactical reserves.
you can also use stratagems like auspex scan and forwarned on units that have been DMC or da jumped etc. this alone is enough argument to make a clear case as to if they are considered reinforcements or not.
N...no? If GW removed the text that indicates they are treated as reinforcements then they are no longer treated as reinforcements. I dunno how we're supposed to play this game if we're going off the assumption that a change in the errata doesn't change the way the rules are played.
Y...yes. if i just started playing the game and went to look at the current faq, then all i would be able to see is the current one that says, yes. which is telling you they do count as having moved for the purposes of shooting heavy weapons.
then i would look at the rule book under reinforcements to see what that applies to and those rules apply to things have been set up mid turn, such as DMC, da jump, gate of infinity, personal teleporters.
you are removing them from the battlefield and setting them up mid turn. the text on DMC says remove from battlefield and set up.
how do you resolve the fact that strats such as auspex scan and forwarned allow you to shoot at things being set up,(coming in as reinforcements).
if they are not reinforcements then you cant shoot at them, but the faq says that you can shoot them so therefor they are reinforcements.
So I just dove into a newer 1K Sons list and was looking for some feed back on a Set of Units I wanted to try and if it is worth it.
1 Exalted Sorcerer on Disk (Prescience, Glamour)
1 Shaman (Weaver)
9 Enlightened w/ Bows
This is a big unit that can put out a good amount of shots and with the psychic back up and be -1 to hit, 4++ and Hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's and Auto Wounding at 4+. With Veterans of the long war they can wound naturally on 3+.
Looking at 18 Shots, avg. 9 Auto Wounds at -1, then 9 other hits, wounding on 3+ (6 wounds at -1) for on avg. 12 wounds at -1. That is 6 MEQ dead on avg.
This could clear out most any screening units and with good movement harass any high toughness targets with Auto Wounding. Going to try it out soon on the table. Any suggestions on this idea?
grouchoben wrote: A power that allows you to reroll a single dice? I think I'll take that to mean it allows you to reroll a single dice.
It doesn't say "a single dice" but "a single dice ROLL". I'm not a native english speaker that's why I asked about it in YMDC, but the more I read it the more it feels obvious to me - based on the errata / FAQ - that we're meant to re-roll both dice for a charge roll (and maybe even Psychic test).
You're correct here. A "single dice roll" is all of the dice that make up that particular roll. If it was just a "single dice" it would be worded the same way as the command re-roll stratagem.
Don't forget they errata'd how re-rolls work with multi-dice rolls.
I'm going to have to agree with that thread and say it's a "single dice roll" not a "single dice". If it was a "single dice" it would be worded the same way as the CP Re-Roll stratagems which specifically states a "single dice". BCB's argument is convincing, especially given the last part which refers to page 1, third paragraph here: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en.pdf
Page 178 – Re-rolls
Change this paragraph to read:
‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means
you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule
allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding
several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless
otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again.
You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls
happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.’
I need some help finding a FAQ or rules about summoning. I was playing a game and was given some information that I cannot find support for.
I was told that if you put points in reserve for summoning and you lose one of your Deamon Princes that in the following turn a Sorcerer can forgo their movement and summon that prince back to the table. Is this valid and please if so, where can I find this information?
Are there any good gun platforms TS can take that aren't hellforged?
I have played quite a few games with 1k sons, and generally do well, but I struggle against vehicles and high toughness shooting platforms such as knights or some tau suits especially when they have any form of screening. Screening neuters our answer to such targets which is repeatable smite. Magnus as we all know is unreliable especially if we don't go first and are unable to get defensive spells off on him. So I am looking for a solid gun platform. With the rumored points changes for Land Raiders. But wondering if there are better gun platforms we have access to from forgeworld or other rules. Something that will benefit from our psychic (one unit to put all the spells into) and ideally can be healed by temporal manipulation (not hellforged)
Maybe a Chaos Decimator? It's a daemon vehicle so you can put a lot of different buffs on it if you want. I don't recall if it has any good AV weapon options though, most people run it with the butcher cannons.
Arachnofiend wrote: Maybe a Chaos Decimator? It's a daemon vehicle so you can put a lot of different buffs on it if you want. I don't recall if it has any good AV weapon options though, most people run it with the butcher cannons.
I'm running 2 with double Soulburners at heat 3 this weekend. Hopefully it goes the way i keep planning and playing it, to go.
I think the new changes in the CA 2018 has really helped make the Rubrics more viable. I am currently using the Rubrik (16 models that use the orb to get in close turn 1) and it has bee pretty solid. Now I just saved 33 points on this one unit. With the changes to Tzeentch Daemons, my armies have saved around 100 points per list. Dreadnaughts, are better, as the LC/Scourge one went down 30 points. I am really really glad that Gors did not up up, but i do with SoT (all terminators really) went down a little more, and I wish the Enlightened went down a point or two. Overall, with no raise to Gors or Daemon princes, or Ahriman, I think we came out the other end of the CA 2018 pretty good.
Specialists look like a cp trap to me. I recently started working under a new theory, trying to make my lists as cp unreliant as possible. Then i will dedicate the cp i do get to one unit/strat like giving defiler reroll all hit and wound, or to use for deep striking only. We have enough units that need cp to be really effective as it is, spending more cp to get the option to spend more cp seems.... like it would be ok in friendly games but i dont see it doing much to help certain armies competitively .
DaPino wrote: I just want to know what our specialist detachement does. :(
No Chaos specialists in Vigilus
Well, there would be in the NEXT book.
I wonder who besides chaos though.
I mean, CSM for sure, probably daemons, DG and TS are good candidates (though such narrow armies are weird to have narrow detachments)
More eldar/orks seems silly, as they are already in the first and splitting them across 2 books would enrage people
Tau and necron are unrelated to this war.
GK seems like a candidate, but same narrowness issue as DG and TS.
Nids maybe?
Azuza001 wrote:Specialists look like a cp trap to me. I recently started working under a new theory, trying to make my lists as cp unreliant as possible. Then i will dedicate the cp i do get to one unit/strat like giving defiler reroll all hit and wound, or to use for deep striking only. We have enough units that need cp to be really effective as it is, spending more cp to get the option to spend more cp seems.... like it would be ok in friendly games but i dont see it doing much to help certain armies competitively .
Well, you don't spend CP to get the option to spend CP You spend CP for a really good warlord trait and relic, and the added benefit of some new stratagems is piled on top.
orangebrushminiatures wrote: with the inferno pistol going down 1 point does this mean Ahriman is 1 point cheaper or are named characters different in this regard?
If it says '(including wargear)' than his price is his price no matter if equipment he's using goes down for other people.
Land Raider? Now with CA18 point reductions, its about 320ish points depending on what you put on top of std. Save 2+ T8, should be a lot more durable than a Predator. I am wondering would including LR help keeping Magnus (or, LR) alive a bit longer. When Magnus goes back to warp, the buffs could go on LR and make it very hardy indeed.
For contents, I though some Rubrics with flamers (also cheaper now) and 2-4 sorcerers: flamers will clear out bubble wrap and horder, then eventually a smite spam should net something worth all that perils risk.
I like the land raider, but not in a thousand sons force. Its still very expensive for what it can add to the force (a mobile shooting bunker). Its not going to distract anyone from shooting magnus. And even if you power it up with spells (-1 to hit and 5++ save) its just going to get ignored for things that can be a real threat.
If you load it up with something scary like rubrics with flames it may take some shots, but then its a loooot of points.
Think of it this way, 4 las cannon shots and 6 heavy bolter for 300+ pts or 2 las cannon, d6 battle cannon, and d6 havoc shots for 180 ish pts? They both do about the same dmg, but the defiler can get more use from boosts and can use unique strats to reroll all hits and wounds. 2 defilers and a vortex beast is a scarry thing to see on the field.
Ysclyth wrote: Are there any good gun platforms TS can take that aren't hellforged?
I have played quite a few games with 1k sons, and generally do well, but I struggle against vehicles and high toughness shooting platforms such as knights or some tau suits especially when they have any form of screening. Screening neuters our answer to such targets which is repeatable smite. Magnus as we all know is unreliable especially if we don't go first and are unable to get defensive spells off on him. So I am looking for a solid gun platform. With the rumored points changes for Land Raiders. But wondering if there are better gun platforms we have access to from forgeworld or other rules. Something that will benefit from our psychic (one unit to put all the spells into) and ideally can be healed by temporal manipulation (not hellforged)
If you don't want to bring FW index units, Renegade armigers are the answer.
Yes, you psychic powers can't buff them at all. But they are already so good on them own.
Post CA18 Hellbrutes have gone to serious contenders for awesomesauce. Not only because of their price drop, but also for the drop on the Plasma cannon they carry.
A hellbrute with Plasma cannon and missile launcher now clocks below 100 pts (96 I think), it hits on a 3+, can get the stratagem to shoot twice , can also hit three times in a row if it also damages itself with overcharging the plasma, and if you don't want that to happen you can always babysit it with an exalted for rerolls.
I think I will be modelling 3 of them as a main staple to my force and I might even get the osirian contemptor from FW 30k just because it's soooo Thousand Sonsy.
Alternatively (because I cannot really justify paying 20 pts for a missile launcher when the plasma cannon is 16 and the hellyfires are 15), you can put a havoc launcher on the other arm. Now your hellbrute costs 82 pts, can overcharge his plasma cannons and also hurt infantry.
3 hellbrutes (Plasma Cannon/havoc launcher) plus a defiler (twin lascannons, havoc launcher) babysat by an exalted for rerolls and healing/buffing them would clock somewhere at 520 pts. It would be an awesome firebase against both tanks and infantry, and would be a hell of a force to hold down an objective or two.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Post CA18 Hellbrutes have gone to serious contenders for awesomesauce. Not only because of their price drop, but also for the drop on the Plasma cannon they carry.
A hellbrute with Plasma cannon and missile launcher now clocks below 100 pts (96 I think), it hits on a 3+, can get the stratagem to shoot twice , can also hit three times in a row if it also damages itself with overcharging the plasma, and if you don't want that to happen you can always babysit it with an exalted for rerolls.
I think I will be modelling 3 of them as a main staple to my force and I might even get the osirian contemptor from FW 30k just because it's soooo Thousand Sonsy.
Alternatively (because I cannot really justify paying 20 pts for a missile launcher when the plasma cannon is 16 and the hellyfires are 15), you can put a havoc launcher on the other arm. Now your hellbrute costs 82 pts, can overcharge his plasma cannons and also hurt infantry.
3 hellbrutes (Plasma Cannon/havoc launcher) plus a defiler (twin lascannons, havoc launcher) babysat by an exalted for rerolls and healing/buffing them would clock somewhere at 520 pts. It would be an awesome firebase against both tanks and infantry, and would be a hell of a force to hold down an objective or two.
So exalted sorcerers don't allow reroll to wounds? If you mean exalted champions, they can't be taken as Tsons and even if they could the reroll is only in melee.
Azuza001 wrote: I like the land raider, but not in a thousand sons force. Its still very expensive for what it can add to the force (a mobile shooting bunker). Its not going to distract anyone from shooting magnus. And even if you power it up with spells (-1 to hit and 5++ save) its just going to get ignored for things that can be a real threat.
If you load it up with something scary like rubrics with flames it may take some shots, but then its a loooot of points.
Think of it this way, 4 las cannon shots and 6 heavy bolter for 300+ pts or 2 las cannon, d6 battle cannon, and d6 havoc shots for 180 ish pts? They both do about the same dmg, but the defiler can get more use from boosts and can use unique strats to reroll all hits and wounds. 2 defilers and a vortex beast is a scarry thing to see on the field.
I rate the Land Raider. Especially now it's ~300pts
I pop 6 baleflamers in a landraider, make my opponent aware of it and they'll definitely start shooting at the LR as well.
I don't run Magnus because you're always weighing up other units around him and how effective you can make him.
So, SOT's can now Rapid Fire at 24" 100% of the time, and Rubrics can do it if they remain stationary.
With this, and the price drop from CA, I think we're approaching viability with a traditional, rubric-focused thousand sons list. Some kind of screen or distraction is definitely still vital (to avoid getting tied up in melee) but rubric units are now far better able to camp out in cover with their 1+/0+ saves and blow things away.
So wait, A rhino with two combi bolters can move 10" and then shoot 8 shots at 24" extra? And with a 6 pt havoc launcher, I can have 8+d6 shots?
Do we Razorback now?
The side effect on this is that it makes the soulreaper cannon on the SOTs not so nice any more. Why pay 10 pts for the same amount of shots that you can have for 3 pts?
I think my list with 3x5 SOT and 2x 20 Rubrics is getting warmer.
topaxygouroun i wrote: So wait, A rhino with two combi bolters can move 10" and then shoot 8 shots at 24" extra? And with a 6 pt havoc launcher, I can have 8+d6 shots?
Do we Razorback now?
The side effect on this is that it makes the soulreaper cannon on the SOTs not so nice any more. Why pay 10 pts for the same amount of shots that you can have for 3 pts?
I think my list with 3x5 SOT and 2x 20 Rubrics is getting warmer.
Well the soulreaper cannon is still going to get good value against tough 4 or 8 and anything with a 4+ armour or better and no invul. If that's worth 10 points really depends on your matchup. But since I play a lot of orcs and marines I'll still be uaing them.
Instead of using a Helbrute (at least for the moment), I'm thinking instead of using a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought with two c-beams and Death Hex, as I heard that this is a very solid, very powerful heavy weapons option that doesn't move all that much, which works great for what I intend. Does this sound like a good idea or not?
What do you guys think about a three Mutaliths list?
I'm not sure if the bonus to TZEENTCH unit from a Mutalith is stackable...if yes they can give a Tzaangor unit -3 AP plus all the other bonus....
I tried the mutalith a couple of times and if the opponent is to able to finish her the 18" mortal wound wave is something really incredible, if by chance a couple of them can survive double mortal wound is really nasty.
Greetings everyone. Long time lurker, first time poster . Looking for advice on my list. I love the chaos members on this forum. I got into 40k on the tail end of 7th edition. Started out with World Eaters and Emperor’s Children. Got a lot of Death Guard as gifts, now they are my largest army. I am now working on a 1ksons list (finally will have a full chaos undivided collection). I am still new to the game and still making mistakes. I rarely win. I want to make sure my list at least is not killing my chances at victory. I am looking to go to the local LGS and be competitive. I currently play with friends, they have Orks, Admech/Knight/IG soup and Dark Angels. I have a grudge vs the Knight player because I have yet to beat him. LGS meta has everything. I prefer TAC lists. I do not have unlimited funds, but any advice on what to buy next is also appreciated. Points left over on purpose to adjust. Thanks in advance.
Question. Is MSU for cultist screen better for 1ksons?
Well, I'd say you've gone way too deep into cultists there. If you come up against a list that can rinse them out, then the more you have, the worse it is. With bolter discipline, and the cultist points increase, combined with the native lack of Tide of Traitors strat for Thousand Sons, I'd say they're now the worst of our three troops choices. I still think a squad of ten is worthwhile, just to sit on objectives (and mayyybe a bit blob of 40). With bolter discipline, however, rubrics are threatening to pip them to even the camping post: 8 -2 shots from camping rubrics is a really nice buff to them.
But your'e really missing out on Tzaangors. I'd buy three boxes straight off the bat, most importantly. If you can get your hands on a contemptor, and two guns to convert to butcher cannons, they provide top-class fire support and a cheeky leadership debuff. Your exalteds are a bit under par, but one can be made pretty good by sticking him on a disc, giving him two power swords, and the seers bane relic. Guy can do damage, if you're set on fielding one. A weird suggestion, and it can't be TS, but I really rate the Kytan now, with TS support. He can reliably get a t1 charge, loves all the buffs/debuffs we bring, and makes great use of the daemonforge strat - he'd be a straight replacement for the defiler (nothing against the defiler).
Finally, TSs soup really well, so you can experiment with DG and TS, or Daemons and TS.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Instead of using a Helbrute (at least for the moment), I'm thinking instead of using a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought with two c-beams and Death Hex, as I heard that this is a very solid, very powerful heavy weapons option that doesn't move all that much, which works great for what I intend. Does this sound like a good idea or not?
C beam is a decent weapon but double butcher cannon is more versatile, the fact you cant move in a dynamic game as wh40k often is a problem, many aggressive lists close distance early and ur weapon degrade quickly as well, table is not infinite, you will be surprised by the speed some armies have 2nd turn and you have 3/4 of enemy army in your deploy
I recently caught the Thousand sons bug and bought the Ahriman model. So, what spells do you guys usually bring on him? Do you bring one miscellaneous and two attack spells ? Or two miscellanous and one attack spell?
Given that he casts three. I am now leaning towards two attack spells and one miscellaneous because there will be times when we just need max damage and so, two attack spells and a smite is good for those times. But tell me what spells you usually put on Ahriman.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Instead of using a Helbrute (at least for the moment), I'm thinking instead of using a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought with two c-beams and Death Hex, as I heard that this is a very solid, very powerful heavy weapons option that doesn't move all that much, which works great for what I intend. Does this sound like a good idea or not?
C beam is a decent weapon but double butcher cannon is more versatile, the fact you cant move in a dynamic game as wh40k often is a problem, many aggressive lists close distance early and ur weapon degrade quickly as well, table is not infinite, you will be surprised by the speed some armies have 2nd turn and you have 3/4 of enemy army in your deploy
I've heard that butcher cannons are really good; I just want have something that would be good for dealing with tanks and other heavy units. To make the Contemptor able to square off in melee, I was also thinking of adding chainfists to both hands. What about the soulburners, how good of a weapon are they? Also, one of the managers at my local GW recommended lascannons.
grouchoben wrote: Well, I'd say you've gone way too deep into cultists there. If you come up against a list that can rinse them out, then the more you have, the worse it is. With bolter discipline, and the cultist points increase, combined with the native lack of Tide of Traitors strat for Thousand Sons, I'd say they're now the worst of our three troops choices. I still think a squad of ten is worthwhile, just to sit on objectives (and mayyybe a bit blob of 40). With bolter discipline, however, rubrics are threatening to pip them to even the camping post: 8 -2 shots from camping rubrics is a really nice buff to them.
But your'e really missing out on Tzaangors. I'd buy three boxes straight off the bat, most importantly. If you can get your hands on a contemptor, and two guns to convert to butcher cannons, they provide top-class fire support and a cheeky leadership debuff. Your exalteds are a bit under par, but one can be made pretty good by sticking him on a disc, giving him two power swords, and the seers bane relic. Guy can do damage, if you're set on fielding one. A weird suggestion, and it can't be TS, but I really rate the Kytan now, with TS support. He can reliably get a t1 charge, loves all the buffs/debuffs we bring, and makes great use of the daemonforge strat - he'd be a straight replacement for the defiler (nothing against the defiler).
Finally, TSs soup really well, so you can experiment with DG and TS, or Daemons and TS.
Thank you very much grouchoben for the advice. Good call on the blob of 40, we do not have Tide of Traitors. I think I will keep the exalteds, I want them to smite\debuff\buff. I will convert one as you have suggested to see how it does. My plan for this list is to Pyschic spam the Knights player to death with the cultists keeping the characters bubble wrapped. No idea how it would do VS Orks (I haven't played my Ork friend since the Codex dropped). Is the list TAC enough? Contemptor and Kytan sadly is out as its FW (my group does not like FW and I don't want to start an arms race). I do like the look of Tzaangors and I've seen that many on this thread use them, so I think I will pick some up and setup a Tzaangor bomb. Defiler is pretty much required as I got it as a gift from my group and want to use it to cleave some knights in half. Same with the knight, although I am going to magnetize so I can do whatever load out I want.
Questions. What knight load out is working for everyone? The advice I given was to not double avenger gatling cannon but to Thermal cannon\Reaper because of the prevalence of knights in the meta.
I tend to think TS answer knights with Death Hex not Thermal Cannons. And I wouldn't mix melee and shooting in either case. Vs. Knights thermal cannons and avenger cannons actually perform roughly the same; the -4 vs -2 doesn't matter due to the invulnerable save and the damage before saves is something like 5.2 for the AGC and 5.4 for the thermal before saves. Plus the thermal is waaay less consistent and way less useful against pretty much any other target. You could look at a stormspear on the head.
On the other hand, running a cheap no-frills melee knight isn't a bad option either. He's just as durable as other knights, but a good bit cheaper so if you're just gonna lose him turn 1 he's a better sacrifice.
I tend to run knights either 'all in' with a pair of armigers and as a character with the 6+ FNP warlord trait, dual avengers and a head mount, for a +3 CP detachment, or as a cheap no frills melee version in a single super heavy detachment.
drakerocket wrote: I tend to think TS answer knights with Death Hex not Thermal Cannons. And I wouldn't mix melee and shooting in either case. Vs. Knights thermal cannons and avenger cannons actually perform roughly the same; the -4 vs -2 doesn't matter due to the invulnerable save and the damage before saves is something like 5.2 for the AGC and 5.4 for the thermal before saves. Plus the thermal is waaay less consistent and way less useful against pretty much any other target. You could look at a stormspear on the head.
On the other hand, running a cheap no-frills melee knight isn't a bad option either. He's just as durable as other knights, but a good bit cheaper so if you're just gonna lose him turn 1 he's a better sacrifice.
I tend to run knights either 'all in' with a pair of armigers and as a character with the 6+ FNP warlord trait, dual avengers and a head mount, for a +3 CP detachment, or as a cheap no frills melee version in a single super heavy detachment.
What's wrong with mixing melee weapons and ranged ones (granted, I know you're talking about knights, so I'm not sure if this advice would apply to my Contemptor)?
drakerocket wrote: I tend to think TS answer knights with Death Hex not Thermal Cannons. And I wouldn't mix melee and shooting in either case. Vs. Knights thermal cannons and avenger cannons actually perform roughly the same; the -4 vs -2 doesn't matter due to the invulnerable save and the damage before saves is something like 5.2 for the AGC and 5.4 for the thermal before saves. Plus the thermal is waaay less consistent and way less useful against pretty much any other target. You could look at a stormspear on the head.
On the other hand, running a cheap no-frills melee knight isn't a bad option either. He's just as durable as other knights, but a good bit cheaper so if you're just gonna lose him turn 1 he's a better sacrifice.
I tend to run knights either 'all in' with a pair of armigers and as a character with the 6+ FNP warlord trait, dual avengers and a head mount, for a +3 CP detachment, or as a cheap no frills melee version in a single super heavy detachment.
What's wrong with mixing melee weapons and ranged ones (granted, I know you're talking about knights, so I'm not sure if this advice would apply to my Contemptor)?
Because you're only half effective at any one time. You either want two mele weapons and to be in combat or two guns and be waaay back from the assaults.
Contemptors can do a bit of both but if you're charging one up the board you're hitting on 3+. So I run butcher cannons and twin heavy bolters and let mele units do the assaults.
drakerocket wrote: I tend to think TS answer knights with Death Hex not Thermal Cannons. And I wouldn't mix melee and shooting in either case. Vs. Knights thermal cannons and avenger cannons actually perform roughly the same; the -4 vs -2 doesn't matter due to the invulnerable save and the damage before saves is something like 5.2 for the AGC and 5.4 for the thermal before saves. Plus the thermal is waaay less consistent and way less useful against pretty much any other target. You could look at a stormspear on the head.
On the other hand, running a cheap no-frills melee knight isn't a bad option either. He's just as durable as other knights, but a good bit cheaper so if you're just gonna lose him turn 1 he's a better sacrifice.
I tend to run knights either 'all in' with a pair of armigers and as a character with the 6+ FNP warlord trait, dual avengers and a head mount, for a +3 CP detachment, or as a cheap no frills melee version in a single super heavy detachment.
What's wrong with mixing melee weapons and ranged ones (granted, I know you're talking about knights, so I'm not sure if this advice would apply to my Contemptor)?
Because you're only half effective at any one time. You either want two mele weapons and to be in combat or two guns and be waaay back from the assaults.
Contemptors can do a bit of both but if you're charging one up the board you're hitting on 3+. So I run butcher cannons and twin heavy bolters and let mele units do the assaults.
Ok. I'm torn if I want to use a Maulerfiend or Helbrute for my melee unit.
drakerocket wrote: I tend to think TS answer knights with Death Hex not Thermal Cannons. And I wouldn't mix melee and shooting in either case. Vs. Knights thermal cannons and avenger cannons actually perform roughly the same; the -4 vs -2 doesn't matter due to the invulnerable save and the damage before saves is something like 5.2 for the AGC and 5.4 for the thermal before saves. Plus the thermal is waaay less consistent and way less useful against pretty much any other target. You could look at a stormspear on the head.
On the other hand, running a cheap no-frills melee knight isn't a bad option either. He's just as durable as other knights, but a good bit cheaper so if you're just gonna lose him turn 1 he's a better sacrifice.
I tend to run knights either 'all in' with a pair of armigers and as a character with the 6+ FNP warlord trait, dual avengers and a head mount, for a +3 CP detachment, or as a cheap no frills melee version in a single super heavy detachment.
What's wrong with mixing melee weapons and ranged ones (granted, I know you're talking about knights, so I'm not sure if this advice would apply to my Contemptor)?
Because you're only half effective at any one time. You either want two mele weapons and to be in combat or two guns and be waaay back from the assaults.
Contemptors can do a bit of both but if you're charging one up the board you're hitting on 3+. So I run butcher cannons and twin heavy bolters and let mele units do the assaults.
Ok. I'm torn if I want to use a Maulerfiend or Helbrute for my melee unit.
IMO if you have some command points for the hellforged stratergy, lasher tendril mauler wins hands down.
So I have started meddling with leaving summoning points in my lists. That's mostly because a lot of stuff have a nice point/PL overlap. For example, if you save aside 75 pts, you can bring 3 flamers, or 10 pinks or an exalted flamer, or if you roll well up to 20 brimstones. If you take it to 85 pts instead, 3 screamers are also on the menu.
For double that (150 pts) we can get double the utility. Imagine your cornered DP summoning 20 brimstones all around him. Suddenly he is untargettable due to character rule and unchargeable unless someone manages to kill 20 brimstone bodies first.
Or imagine dropping 6 flamers which can shoot on the spot due to being 12" range and incinerating a horde unit much better than the warpflamers would.
Main question: Can we only summon the daemon units that exist in the Thousand Sons codex (aka horrors, flamers and screamers) or can we bring all Tzeentch Daemons with the "Demonic ritual" rule from the Daemon codex, which includes exalted flamers, burning chariots, fluxmasters, changelings, blue scribes and even Daemon Princes?
The way the rule is stated in the book, it should be any daemons, but then I'm wondering why only the horrors, flamers and screamers exist in the codex. What say you?
Secondary question: What about upgrades? If I summon a pink horror unit, can they have a demonic icon as well if I pay the points?
As long as it has the Tzeentch keyword, you can summon it.
In regards to leaving points spare, I guess it depends on whether or not you think you’ll be hampered by not having those points on the table to begin with. For example, 90 points is another Tzaangor Shaman.
It could work well, though – especially alongside a Daemons battalion. Save the points to split some (not all) of a 30 Pink Horror unit, then you have the option to either split them or summon in ~150 points of something else.
Kdash wrote: As long as it has the Tzeentch keyword, you can summon it.
In regards to leaving points spare, I guess it depends on whether or not you think you’ll be hampered by not having those points on the table to begin with. For example, 90 points is another Tzaangor Shaman.
It could work well, though – especially alongside a Daemons battalion. Save the points to split some (not all) of a 30 Pink Horror unit, then you have the option to either split them or summon in ~150 points of something else.
It's intended for use in a mono-faction , mono-subfaction tournament. Which means you can only bring Thousand Sons army and nothing else, or Kronos tyranids and nothing else etc. I thought summoning would be a way to break this restriction, and, since my characters will all be mobile (DPs with wings, Ahriman and exalted on discs) I will be able to move-advance T1 and deep summon a lot of stuff on T2. This will also give me the flexibility of only summoning according to the opposition.
The other reason is that I don't play tzaangors of any flavor. I already own a Beasts of Chaos army with ~300+ goats of different flavors and sizes, and GW pretty much rendered it almost obsolete. I won't be indulging them with more goat purchases. Therefore, my list is really streamlined. Ahriman on disc, 2 DP's with wings, exalted, maybe termi sorc, mandatory battalion troops. It leaves me with 700ish points, which I can use on things that are targets for AT weapons, SoTs that are targets for plasma weapons, or a buttload of daemons which are nobody's prime targets and can synergize well with the DP auras and spells (flickering flames etc).
Thank you very much grouchoben for the advice. Good call on the blob of 40, we do not have Tide of Traitors. I think I will keep the exalteds, I want them to smite\debuff\buff. I will convert one as you have suggested to see how it does. My plan for this list is to Pyschic spam the Knights player to death with the cultists keeping the characters bubble wrapped. No idea how it would do VS Orks (I haven't played my Ork friend since the Codex dropped). Is the list TAC enough? Contemptor and Kytan sadly is out as its FW (my group does not like FW and I don't want to start an arms race). I do like the look of Tzaangors and I've seen that many on this thread use them, so I think I will pick some up and setup a Tzaangor bomb. Defiler is pretty much required as I got it as a gift from my group and want to use it to cleave some knights in half. Same with the knight, although I am going to magnetize so I can do whatever load out I want.
Questions. What knight load out is working for everyone? The advice I given was to not double avenger gatling cannon but to Thermal cannon\Reaper because of the prevalence of knights in the meta.
Tzaangors can do a real job on knights, by the way. A blob of 30 with the bray horn and dark matter crystal can get an 8" first turn charge (but Castellans are always screened.) 61 attacks, probably rerolling all misses (because most knights are characters), wounding on 5+ due to veterans of the long war, -1 ap, and then cycle of slaughter to fight again. Of course some are going to die before they fight again, after the knight, but just for the sake of argument: that 30-bird blob is putting 18 damage on a character knight. They also rinse through chaff, marines, you name it. For renegade knights, again, unfortunately, I like FW knights - the Atropos has a native 4++, with rotate making that 3++, something that normal renegade knights can't have. You can also make him a character to turn him into a massive leadership debuffer, it that's your thing. Can be funny with treason Good luck!
I second tzaangors, they are also a great answer to any assassins. Had a guy drop 2 of the anti psycher assassins up front, the ones that turn your ws to 6+, they were devoured by my group of 19 tzaangors in cc t1. Yeah i had to use the strat to fight again but hitting on 6's, but reroll all failed hits gets enough hits to matter. Use a vortex beast to bump them up to str 5 so wounding on 3's, they do the job really well.
Azuza001 wrote: I second tzaangors, they are also a great answer to any assassins. Had a guy drop 2 of the anti psycher assassins up front, the ones that turn your ws to 6+, they were devoured by my group of 19 tzaangors in cc t1. Yeah i had to use the strat to fight again but hitting on 6's, but reroll all failed hits gets enough hits to matter. Use a vortex beast to bump them up to str 5 so wounding on 3's, they do the job really well.
I could be mistaken, but the vortex beast power is not a psychic power at all and it is not an attack, which means it would pass a 2+ MW on the assassin with no questions asked and ignoring his protections.
So I am slowly being convinced that the correct amount of reinforcement points is 150. Here's the things you can summon with 150 reinforcement points:
2 units of 3 flamers or one unit of 6 flamers
1 unit of 3 flamers and a changecaster
20 punk horrors or 2 units of 10
50 brimstones or 5 units of 10 or anything in between
Two exalted flamers, or an exalted flamer and 3 flamers
5 screamers
A burning chariot and 10 brimstone horrors
A Fateskimmer and 10 brimstone horrors
The blue scribes and 3 flamers, or the blue scribes and 10 punks or the blue scribes and an exalted flamer
In general, so much diversity.
Also proves that basically warpflamer rubrics are still bad. A warpflamer rubric costs 26 pts, cannot DMC and shoot and doesn't do anything in melee. A Flamer costs 25 pts, can get summoned and immediately shoot and can also shoot flames in hth.
Which devolves into the question: Are warpflamer rubrics really useful?
Sure, they can be used as deterrents in big blocks of rubrics so the opponent thinks twice before charging. For example, a 10 model rubric unit with 5 inferno bolters, 4 warpflamers and the sorcerer. Opponent will think twice before charging into that. But what if I didn't pay for those warpflamers at all? I would instead have a 6 man rubric unit with the same damage output in meaningful range. Plus my unit would be cheap enough that it wouldn't make sense for the opponent to go charge it anyways.
What I mean to say is, wtf is the role of warpflame rubrics? Maybe 5 strong with 4 flamers guarding a back objective? In cover and with all is Dust they would be pretty much indestructible from shooting and impossible to go into melee also, but then you're paying 130 pts for a backfield objective holder...
Warpflamer rubrics have a different roll. Want to see your opponent shoot everything they have at a rhino? Put 5 rubrics with 4 warpflamers in one and move it straight at them. Are they good? Not by themselves but a few of them in a large squad can act as a deterrent vs small things charging in.
Azuza001 wrote: Warpflamer rubrics have a different roll. Want to see your opponent shoot everything they have at a rhino? Put 5 rubrics with 4 warpflamers in one and move it straight at them.
Might be a good way to "screen" Magnus if you're running him as well. The more shots that are fired at the Rhino turn 1, the more chance Magnus has to survive, get his psychic protections going, and get stuck in to melt faces.
Azuza001 wrote: Warpflamer rubrics have a different roll. Want to see your opponent shoot everything they have at a rhino? Put 5 rubrics with 4 warpflamers in one and move it straight at them.
Might be a good way to "screen" Magnus if you're running him as well. The more shots that are fired at the Rhino turn 1, the more chance Magnus has to survive, get his psychic protections going, and get stuck in to melt faces.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
But Magnus really stretches up the points. Might need to kill one of the DP's.
Ahriman, DP, Magnus that's 791 pts
3 units of 5 rubrics, 2 with flamers, one with bolters + a rhino
A shaman + 6 enlightened with bows
Leaves about 340 pts. Enough for a Scarab unit + Termi Sorc maybe? Or two Defilers to make it even more scary?
Basic question for anyone who plays magnus: What's my chances that Magnus survives if my opponent takes 1st turn?
Azuza001 wrote: Warpflamer rubrics have a different roll. Want to see your opponent shoot everything they have at a rhino? Put 5 rubrics with 4 warpflamers in one and move it straight at them.
Might be a good way to "screen" Magnus if you're running him as well. The more shots that are fired at the Rhino turn 1, the more chance Magnus has to survive, get his psychic protections going, and get stuck in to melt faces.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
But Magnus really stretches up the points. Might need to kill one of the DP's.
Ahriman, DP, Magnus that's 791 pts
3 units of 5 rubrics, 2 with flamers, one with bolters + a rhino
A shaman + 6 enlightened with bows
Leaves about 340 pts. Enough for a Scarab unit + Termi Sorc maybe? Or two Defilers to make it even more scary?
Basic question for anyone who plays magnus: What's my chances that Magnus survives if my opponent takes 1st turn?
depend by opponent list, in 90% of cases it will not survive
Anyway i still need to see a skilled player fire on a rhino when Magnus is on the table, and no rubric with flamers aren't the real danger considering in many cases you will burn some screens and then next turn you will die, no one will be so dumb to shoot at rhino and let Magnus unleash his psy powers then wreak havoc between your lines
Azuza001 wrote: Warpflamer rubrics have a different roll. Want to see your opponent shoot everything they have at a rhino? Put 5 rubrics with 4 warpflamers in one and move it straight at them.
Might be a good way to "screen" Magnus if you're running him as well. The more shots that are fired at the Rhino turn 1, the more chance Magnus has to survive, get his psychic protections going, and get stuck in to melt faces.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
But Magnus really stretches up the points. Might need to kill one of the DP's.
Ahriman, DP, Magnus that's 791 pts
3 units of 5 rubrics, 2 with flamers, one with bolters + a rhino
A shaman + 6 enlightened with bows
Leaves about 340 pts. Enough for a Scarab unit + Termi Sorc maybe? Or two Defilers to make it even more scary?
Basic question for anyone who plays magnus: What's my chances that Magnus survives if my opponent takes 1st turn?
depend by opponent list, in 90% of cases it will not survive
Anyway i still need to see a skilled player fire on a rhino when Magnus is on the table, and no rubric with flamers aren't the real danger considering in many cases you will burn some screens and then next turn you will die, no one will be so dumb to shoot at rhino and let Magnus unleash his psy powers then wreak havoc between your lines
Forgot to add. This is for a 1750, mono faction mono subtype tournament. Aka only kronos tyranids, or only alpha legion CSM and nothing else. Would that up Magnus' chances?
Nature's Minister wrote: Speaking of culexus assassins, if you infernal gateway a target and the culexus is within 3 inches, does it take the splash damage
Edit: just realized the wording is targeted or affected, so no
I have been thinking about culexus assassins since running into one in a tournament last year (which ended up being the only game I lost in 5 and cost me 1st place). Since then I've asked my friend to bring his everytime we play and come up with 2 ways of getting rid of him.
1. Tar pit him (I use nurglings for this he really stuggles to get through them) Then I play around his aura.
2. Massed fire from SOTs with prescience and VotLW or lots of horrors if I'm using them.
I find rubrics with flamers so underwhelming with everything else that I don't use them. And as others have said I think flamers are just better if you want some warpflame in your list
Rubric flamers can work but they need a lot of support and you gotta really know your army.
They’re assault weapons so you should always be running giving you 1-6 inches more range, they need to be in a rhino, again so they can pop out with 3 extra range, and you can warptime them, so getting them where they need to be isn’t really the issue.
They can’t be the sole heavy hitter in your army but 9 of them in a rhino with a lot of tzaangors around to stop from being surrounded the turn you have to wait makes for a very real and dangerous distraction carnifex.
Seems too good to be true, and feels like were going to be excluded from the rule should it be implemented.
What do you guys think?
Why would you think that? It's a marginally benefit for TS, since rubrics are mostly sub par even with the rule, SoT would get their double tap anyways with deepstriking, and we don't have access to bikers. And why would you think we would get excluded from a blanket astartes rule?
It's not going to change much. Scarabs now might have one more reason to start the game on the table rather than getting deep strike in, but that's about it. Small 5-strong units of rubrics in cover holding backfield objectives might look good on paper, but it's 96 points, no thanks.
Seems too good to be true, and feels like were going to be excluded from the rule should it be implemented.
What do you guys think?
Why would you think that? It's a marginally benefit for TS, since rubrics are mostly sub par even with the rule, SoT would get their double tap anyways with deepstriking, and we don't have access to bikers. And why would you think we would get excluded from a blanket astartes rule?
I agree on the Rubricae, they dont gain a whole lot from this other then becoming very good mid field objective holders.
SOT on the other hand gain a lot. Yes they could rapid fire when they DS before, but your options were limited. Mostly by your opponent choosing what your options were. Now we can land 9" away from our cloest enemy and shoot up to 15" behind that unit with rapid fire intensity, where as before we only had 3" behind them. It's a hell of a difference.
Seems too good to be true, and feels like were going to be excluded from the rule should it be implemented.
What do you guys think?
Why would you think that? It's a marginally benefit for TS, since rubrics are mostly sub par even with the rule, SoT would get their double tap anyways with deepstriking, and we don't have access to bikers. And why would you think we would get excluded from a blanket astartes rule?
I agree on the Rubricae, they dont gain a whole lot from this other then becoming very good mid field objective holders.
SOT on the other hand gain a lot. Yes they could rapid fire when they DS before, but your options were limited. Mostly by your opponent choosing what your options were. Now we can land 9" away from our cloest enemy and shoot up to 15" behind that unit with rapid fire intensity, where as before we only had 3" behind them. It's a hell of a difference.
Not to mention that it gives you greater flexibility when deepstriking. Playing spacemarines, you don't have to get auspex scanned. Key objective 20" from unit you want to hit, no problems. Nice cover available in centre of board, that's my SOTs new home.
I find rubrics with flamers so underwhelming with everything else that I don't use them. And as others have said I think flamers are just better if you want some warpflame in your list
Except Flamers are not Obsec, or psykers, nor can you use Veterans of the Long War on them like Rubrics.
I find rubrics with flamers so underwhelming with everything else that I don't use them. And as others have said I think flamers are just better if you want some warpflame in your list
Except Flamers are not Obsec, or psykers, nor can you use Veterans of the Long War on them like Rubrics.
I'd swap all that for a 2 wound model, with fly 12", 12" flamers that can deepsrtike and shoot without warptime. You can buff them to Str 5 with +1 to wound with flickering flames from a herald and if you want to keep them alive can spend cp to make them a 3++.
It depends on what your doing honestly. Rubrics with warp flamers are what you do when your looking to boost through strats and want the troop choice. Flamers are what you do when your looking to boost through spells and vortex beasts. Both can be effective if used correctly, but flamers are honestly easier to use and cheaper for what they do.
Flickering flames = veterans of the long war so that's covered.
Flamers get buffed in shooting by changecasters, mutaliths etc, rubrics can't.
12" shooting vs 8" shooting means they can deepstrike and shoot, unlike Rubrics.
Flamers also have double the amount of wounds and a better invul save for one less point.
Flamer weapons are pistols, which means they can flame in combat. If rubrics get stuck in combat they are done. Pretty important for a unit that wants to be in the front.
Rubrics need an artifact or a stratagem to deepstrike, flamers can just be summoned.
Flamers can fly and have double the movement of rubrics.
Flamers are just hands down better. A lot better. Rubrics really need more love than that from GW.
It often feels that our army was priced very weirdly. In 8th edition our whole army went down by one invul save with not gain and the points definitely do not reflect this. Sons went from 4++ to 5++ under the threat of achieving 3++ easily and are bad because of this, but were not costed accordingly. I meant 5++ is not even that scarce any more, everyone and their mother have it. Heck tzaangors have it for 7 points a model. Scarabs have all the drawbacks of the cataphractii armor without gaining the 4++ save it gives literally everybody else. Again, for no real reason other than "All is dust" which is super highly situational, is factored into the price as an extra ability but does not always work. Then in comes our psychic discipline, which is unreasonably priced on their casting values. It seems like they put the numbers because we can get a lot of +bonus to cast, but then again the +bonus to cast is factored in the units' price. So we pay more for being able to cast better, then our discipline is overcosted and takes that away.
Azuza001 wrote:It depends on what your doing honestly. Rubrics with warp flamers are what you do when your looking to boost through strats and want the troop choice. Flamers are what you do when your looking to boost through spells and vortex beasts. Both can be effective if used correctly, but flamers are honestly easier to use and cheaper for what they do.
The problem is when you make a list of the things the units can do you end up with 1 or 2 things for Rubrics and 10 for Flamers.
topaxygouroun i wrote:Flickering flames = veterans of the long war so that's covered.
Flamers get buffed in shooting by changecasters, mutaliths etc, rubrics can't.
12" shooting vs 8" shooting means they can deepstrike and shoot, unlike Rubrics.
Flamers also have double the amount of wounds and a better invul save for one less point.
Flamer weapons are pistols, which means they can flame in combat. If rubrics get stuck in combat they are done. Pretty important for a unit that wants to be in the front.
Rubrics need an artifact or a stratagem to deepstrike, flamers can just be summoned.
Flamers can fly and have double the movement of rubrics.
Flamers are just hands down better. A lot better. Rubrics really need more love than that from GW.
On flickering flames vs vets : Strats can only be blocked by 2 spicific armys at this point, psycic any army can stop for the most part. Also you can just roll bad and not get flames off. Vets of the long war is much more reliable.
Rubrics are still troops. And rubrics can cast spells. Flamers cant.
I don't know if summoning is a valid argument for deep striking. Rubrics can do it via relic or strat. Flamers can do it via summons or strat. With how clunky summoning is atm thats more a point for rubrics.
I am not saying flamers are worse than rubrics, rubrics are not in a good spot and my 40 marines are sad by this, but they are different and there are a few reasons why they can find a use in an army.
I'm the odd duck, I run Rubrics and think they're great. Bolter drill helped them a lot, they can cast/deny, and they're hard to shift (especially in cover, and I usually run Weaver of Fates on their sorcerer). Dropping them in via strat or relic is a bunch of super bolter shots.
My mind was also blown when it was pointed out that All Is Dust applies to the invulnerable save, too.I'd been cheating them of even further resilience!
On an unrelated topic, the dual power sword exalted is no longer a thing in the faq. Damn if I know why they went and removed that right after a bunch of people broke their models to remodel them with two power swords...
When models with two times 5++ save cost 7 points, it's completely bonkers to pay 16 for a rubric marine. Rubrics used to be pricey because invul save armywide was a rare thing and they had 4++ to begin with. These days everyone has it. 5++ means nothing any more. which leaves the Rubrics completely dead in the water at 16+2 pts per model.
You know what else costs 18 pts per model? Bow enlightened. In fact it's 17. Only they have better shooting than the rubrics. They also have double the amount of wounds, more than double the movement speed, much better hth potential, get buffed by more stuff of our army and they trade a defensive special rule with an offensive one, and let's just face it, 40k at the moment is a 2-turn game. How on earth is a 3+ armor worth more than all of these?
CSM rubrics can take a cannon in 5 models, this could have given them something to write home about, but alas ours can't.
D6Damager wrote: I see everyone's point, but for me I've lost games due to not having enough objective secured. So, rubrics will always have a place in the list.
We have ObSec units for 5 pts per model and we have ObSec units for 7 pts per model which also includes 5++ and Toughness 4 to match the Rubrics. The problem with the Rubrics is exactly what you say. Because for the price of 5 rubrics you can have 20 cultists, which is more obsec than the 5 rubrics are.
Don't get me wrong here, the new beta bolter rules definitely made the rubrics tasty as an MSU backfield objective holder that can still cast a spell and shoot 8 inferno shots, and if you think about it, 5 rubrics are the same points as a standard sorcerer, only they trade 1 spell cast for Troop and 8 bolter shots. However this kind of illustrates the sad part of being a sorcerer in general more than it proves a point in favor of the Rubrics.
Greetings everyone. I am still looking to go to the local LGS and be competitive (haven’t gone yet). I cleaned up the list I posted earlier in the month and have been building the army. Feedback is much appreciated. Points left over on purpose to adjust. Thanks in advance.
Renegade Knight [25 PL, 481pts]: Heavy stubber [2pts], Ironstorm Missile Pod [16pts]
Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer [89pts]: Avenger gatling cannon [75pts], Heavy flamer [14pts]
Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer [89pts]: Avenger gatling cannon [75pts], Heavy flamer [14pts]
ArcaneHorror wrote: For my Hellforged Contemptor with double butcher cannons, is it worth it to give it Death Hex or not?
I like to let my dreadnoughts keep their invuln
But seriously what’s the question? They’re not psykers and death hex is a debuff so you couldn’t cast it on them anyways. You mean for another unit to have that spell for targets of the contemptor?
ArcaneHorror wrote: For my Hellforged Contemptor with double butcher cannons, is it worth it to give it Death Hex or not?
I like to let my dreadnoughts keep their invuln
But seriously what’s the question? They’re not psykers and death hex is a debuff so you couldn’t cast it on them anyways. You mean for another unit to have that spell for targets of the contemptor?
I mean giving the Death Hex dreadnought the Dark Hereticus power. I was told on FB that it would make the unit even more powerful than it already is.
ArcaneHorror wrote: For my Hellforged Contemptor with double butcher cannons, is it worth it to give it Death Hex or not?
I like to let my dreadnoughts keep their invuln
But seriously what’s the question? They’re not psykers and death hex is a debuff so you couldn’t cast it on them anyways. You mean for another unit to have that spell for targets of the contemptor?
I mean giving the Death Hex dreadnought the Dark Hereticus power. I was told on FB that it would make the unit even more powerful than it already is.
No CSM Dreadnoughts / Helbrutes of any kind are Psykers, so it's impossible for any of them to have Death Hex.
Would the type of list as I constructed below work? I wanted some board control with a renegade knight fire base. The single warglaive might look odd but it is intended to move up the board and provide a screen of the daemon princes when needed. I could see turning that into a third helverine.
Would this work?
Spoiler:
+++ Golden dread (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) +++
ArcaneHorror wrote: For my Hellforged Contemptor with double butcher cannons, is it worth it to give it Death Hex or not?
I like to let my dreadnoughts keep their invuln
But seriously what’s the question? They’re not psykers and death hex is a debuff so you couldn’t cast it on them anyways. You mean for another unit to have that spell for targets of the contemptor?
I mean giving the Death Hex dreadnought the Dark Hereticus power. I was told on FB that it would make the unit even more powerful than it already is.
ArcaneHorror wrote: For my Hellforged Contemptor with double butcher cannons, is it worth it to give it Death Hex or not?
I like to let my dreadnoughts keep their invuln
But seriously what’s the question? They’re not psykers and death hex is a debuff so you couldn’t cast it on them anyways. You mean for another unit to have that spell for targets of the contemptor?
I mean giving the Death Hex dreadnought the Dark Hereticus power. I was told on FB that it would make the unit even more powerful than it already is.
where did you readcontemptors can be psykers?
It was from a conversation that I had on FB. I think I'll just DH to my Daemon Prince of Tzeentch instead, as I've read that he gets an impressive buff from it.
ArcaneHorror wrote: For my Hellforged Contemptor with double butcher cannons, is it worth it to give it Death Hex or not?
I like to let my dreadnoughts keep their invuln
But seriously what’s the question? They’re not psykers and death hex is a debuff so you couldn’t cast it on them anyways. You mean for another unit to have that spell for targets of the contemptor?
I mean giving the Death Hex dreadnought the Dark Hereticus power. I was told on FB that it would make the unit even more powerful than it already is.
where did you readcontemptors can be psykers?
It was from a conversation that I had on FB. I think I'll just DH to my Daemon Prince of Tzeentch instead, as I've read that he gets an impressive buff from it.
30k Thousand Sons can have a psyker Dreadnought HQ, but, the only faction in 30k that can have them is Blood Angels.
Ahh my mistake, for some reason presumed they were. Possibly worth trying with Enlightened, especially if you're already running flamers and a fateskimmer as I am. Str 7 -1 ap 2D isn't bad with the spears.
I think 120 is overcosted when they were 65 before and only get 50% extra shooting. Although one unit of 3 with VotLW and EC might be worth it. 105 would be more reasonable imo.
Oblits at 120pts would be paperweight. These guys have 4 wounds at T5 / 2+ / 5++... A Helbrute costs 120pts for 8 wounds at T7 / 3+, and it's NOT considered good.
Both units will hug cover, but one has 24" guns, the other 48". Damage-wise, they're identical vs Rhino but the Oblits have the upper hand vs hordes / Primaris.
The Oblit can Deepstrike. Helbrute cannot.
Honestly, I would never pay more than 100pts for 1 Oblit, that would be silly. Let's hope their cost is closer to 15pts / PL rather than 20.
Depending what the new discipline is, a spearhead of the new master of possessions and 3 solo oblits could be a great addition to our army, adding a whole new psychic discipline to the table.
Do we have any leaks into the Malefic discipline? It could potentially be VERY interesting for Thousand Sons. The Phobos one is out but it only applies to PHOBOS units, but the CSM datasheets don't have any weird keywords so we could get good use of them.
BoomWolf wrote: What makes you think TS would have any access to malefic?
Not Sons themselves, but a CSM detachment led by the new guy. With the keywords that the new CSM units have, the Malefic discipline could be easily targeting HERETIC ASTARTES units, at which point the Master can buff our Sons. And being able to play with a full fourth psychic discipline in the army of psykers excites me.
If the marine one is any signal it may only effect units with both the adeptus astraties and demon keywords. The marine one has leaked and the ones that target friendlies need to have the phobos keyword.
Azuza001 wrote: If the marine one is any signal it may only effect units with both the adeptus astraties and demon keywords. The marine one has leaked and the ones that target friendlies need to have the phobos keyword.
In a Thousand Sons list that would include Daemon Princes, all our dudes on discs (Ahriman, Exalted sorcerers, shaman), Tzeentch Enlightened, our Daemon Engines (Defiler, Forgefiend, Helldrake) and the obliterators to bring the Master in a nice spearhead detachment. And of course Magnus as well. I'm so game.
You might want to read their rules again. Oblits never become separate units. It's Greater Possessed that work this way.
You are correct sir!
topaxygouroun i wrote:Do we have any leaks into the Malefic discipline? It could potentially be VERY interesting for Thousand Sons. The Phobos one is out but it only applies to PHOBOS units, but the CSM datasheets don't have any weird keywords so we could get good use of them.
Been keeping an eye out nothing yet.
topaxygouroun i wrote:
BoomWolf wrote: What makes you think TS would have any access to malefic?
Not Sons themselves, but a CSM detachment led by the new guy. With the keywords that the new CSM units have, the Malefic discipline could be easily targeting HERETIC ASTARTES units, at which point the Master can buff our Sons. And being able to play with a full fourth psychic discipline in the army of psykers excites me.
I'm with boom wolf here we probably will not get access to the spells. You will probably need to have appropriate <Mark of Chaos> and <Legion> for the spells same as the Greater possesed.
Looks like Thousand sons, nurgle and fallen got the short end of the stick here. We are specifically unable to use our legion as a legion keyword for the new stuff.
I'm pretty unhappy about this. My excitement went from 10 to zero real quick.
Sasori wrote: Looks like Thousand sons, nurgle and fallen got the short end of the stick here. We are specifically unable to use our legion as a legion keyword for the new stuff.
I'm pretty unhappy about this. My excitement went from 10 to zero real quick.
I'm not really surprised we would have gotten so much from this it would have been crazy.
CSM are CSM and Oblits are Oblits, we couldn't use them previously so why would we be able to now all of a sudden?
Greater Possessed are essentially a Possessed-character. We can't take Possessed, so I didn't expect us to be able to take Greater Possessed either.
The Master of Possession would be nice to have, but I can see why they chose to prevent us from taking him. Fluffwise it's a bit of a stretch, and I'm not really sure we need a 4th discipline.
I wouldn't complain though, but alas...
The only thing that doesn't make sense to prevent us from having is the Venomcrawler, as it's essentially a Daemon Engine. With that said, I'm not going to cry myself to sleep over the fact that I can't add one to my Thousand Sons, as I'd probably never field one anyway.
Agreed, this is a buff for generic chaos, not us. Besides, i don't think i would have wanted to play vs us or nurgle with the new stuff. Our deamon princes could have been at a 3++ just by being near the master of possession, and think of how tough nurgle stuff could have gotten, ugh.
small_gods wrote: Also TSons covered in spikes and skulls wouldn't look right. Plus those greater possessed would need to be more beaky and less claw like.
So to switch gears a bit from the new CSM leaks, I had two games over the past two weeks where I used a larger mob of Rubic Marines (16 to be exact). I have to say to anyone who likes Rubrics, the large block worked really well. The force multiplier of VotLW, dark matter crystal, and buff spells on one large unit really shines over two small units of 9 which i ran before as their bolters are so deadly with the -2 ap in concentrated fire with VotLW and prescience. Also the DMC can be used turn 1, so dropping them on a flank can really cause issues to your opponent. I would suggest trying out a block of them.
As for the CSM leaks, I did not expect to get anything from the new release. Hopefully we will get some new models in the future, especially since we lack so much in elites and fast attack.
Also is anyone else planning on using an allied force of Scourged CSM? I use to play tzeentch CSM with rubrics before thousand sons existed so I am excited to to have rules for Scourged. Probably not the most competitive way to play, but should be fun.
I havent decided yet on what i am going to team with my tsons, but as for rubric blobs yes they are amazing. I played a 2500 pt game a few months ago (before bbr) and had 2 squads of 20 and a squad of 10. When my opponent saw what i had brought he was besides himself trying to figure out what to do. The kicker? I had brought a black legion detachment with abadon and cultists and a world eaters force with small 5 man beserker teams. My opponent didnt even want to charge my rubrics because of the beserkers, kharn, and abaddon sitting there directing traffic. Left them to do whatever they wanted, and 20 rapid fire rubrics with votlw is very very nasty.
xeen wrote: So to switch gears a bit from the new CSM leaks, I had two games over the past two weeks where I used a larger mob of Rubic Marines (16 to be exact). I have to say to anyone who likes Rubrics, the large block worked really well. The force multiplier of VotLW, dark matter crystal, and buff spells on one large unit really shines over two small units of 9 which i ran before as their bolters are so deadly with the -2 ap in concentrated fire with VotLW and prescience. Also the DMC can be used turn 1, so dropping them on a flank can really cause issues to your opponent. I would suggest trying out a block of them.
As for the CSM leaks, I did not expect to get anything from the new release. Hopefully we will get some new models in the future, especially since we lack so much in elites and fast attack.
Also is anyone else planning on using an allied force of Scourged CSM? I use to play tzeentch CSM with rubrics before thousand sons existed so I am excited to to have rules for Scourged. Probably not the most competitive way to play, but should be fun.
The issue with the rubrick is that you can do the same with a large scarab unit-and these fit into a supreme command detachment.
And given that actual TS has little of value outside of HQs (tzaangors DO NOT CARE is they are in a TS or in a generic tzeentch detachment!) you might as well only use that one.
As for the scourged, I am not impressed. a single reroll only matters if you got one critical weapon in the squad, that's why it works for Tau so well with markerlights, and the overwatch boost is not that relevant for CSM, they tend to be the ones on the offensive, not the ones soaking up an assault.
The warlord trait is nice, but plays into an assault HQ, but that does not play into the chapter's strengths.
The stratagem is pretty good, and plays into the shooty style of the chapter, but CSM unit that benefit from it the most benefit even more from being slaanesh for double tapping.
The best ally seems to be the Spiky 17 for the CP, or our classic allied T deamons.
I disagree with the statement that we have little value outside of our hq's, but i do understand where you are coming from with that sentiment. I personally have had a lot of luck running 3 - 10 rubric squads, tzangor bomb, a defiler and 2 mutalith vortex beasts on top of the 2 deamon princes and arhiman on disk. I also run a few rhinos. Blitzing t1 with a tzaangor bomb and a deamon prince then following it up by having your rubrics in place t2 for their gunline as well as a suped up defiler wounding everything on 2's and getting full rerolls to hit and wound can really throw an opponent off.
But i digress, i know pure tsons isnt super competitive. But we can do a great job in the supporting roll. 2 dp's and 3 rubric squads of 5 men gives us 5 different deny the witch options for a small number of points, that alone can be super effective and the 5 extra cp are not bad.
I do agree that scourged having looked at them are not all that impressive to us as allies.
xeen wrote: So to switch gears a bit from the new CSM leaks, I had two games over the past two weeks where I used a larger mob of Rubic Marines (16 to be exact). I have to say to anyone who likes Rubrics, the large block worked really well. The force multiplier of VotLW, dark matter crystal, and buff spells on one large unit really shines over two small units of 9 which i ran before as their bolters are so deadly with the -2 ap in concentrated fire with VotLW and prescience. Also the DMC can be used turn 1, so dropping them on a flank can really cause issues to your opponent. I would suggest trying out a block of them.
As for the CSM leaks, I did not expect to get anything from the new release. Hopefully we will get some new models in the future, especially since we lack so much in elites and fast attack.
Also is anyone else planning on using an allied force of Scourged CSM? I use to play tzeentch CSM with rubrics before thousand sons existed so I am excited to to have rules for Scourged. Probably not the most competitive way to play, but should be fun.
The issue with the rubrick is that you can do the same with a large scarab unit-and these fit into a supreme command detachment.
And given that actual TS has little of value outside of HQs (tzaangors DO NOT CARE is they are in a TS or in a generic tzeentch detachment!) you might as well only use that one.
As for the scourged, I am not impressed. a single reroll only matters if you got one critical weapon in the squad, that's why it works for Tau so well with markerlights, and the overwatch boost is not that relevant for CSM, they tend to be the ones on the offensive, not the ones soaking up an assault.
The warlord trait is nice, but plays into an assault HQ, but that does not play into the chapter's strengths.
The stratagem is pretty good, and plays into the shooty style of the chapter, but CSM unit that benefit from it the most benefit even more from being slaanesh for double tapping.
The best ally seems to be the Spiky 17 for the CP, or our classic allied T deamons.
Yea I don't think the Scourged abilities are that great, but I am more into thematic lists than overly competitive lists (lets fact is if you bring CSM shooting it should be Slannessh for the Strat). But I don't think they are as bad as say, Word Bearers. I plan on bring 3 CSM squads with a LC so the re-roll can be helpful. That adds some LC to my Tsons while providing command points (although I was thinking Red Corsairs as well for more CP).
Also for the SoT squads, I find that their 2 wounds is more of a liability then strength. It makes them weaker against multi-wound weapons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am also thinking of taking an Ambull in my army. Anyone ever do it? They are only 70 points, and while it costs a CP to do, and I don't think the model's rules is all that competitive, I like it for my fluff reasoning. My Tson sorceror breads them on his base planet, using sorcery to control and sedate them. And since I find it highly unlikely that Tson forces attack to "conquer" in the normal use of the term, that when he attacks as part of a group for some other sinister plot, he brings an Ambull or two with him, and when the time is right removes the psychic safe guards and lets them loose to attack the enemy, and then if they survive to breed on the planet and cause continued havoc to the ecosystem. Sounds very Tzeentch-y. Sorry this is not really a tactic but a justification to use a cool model.
The sot are indeed weaker to multi damage, but they are more durable against good ap single damage (like special ammo), less valuable to moral and easier to fit within range as the unit size is smaller, as well as not being useless if assaulted.
Also native DS so you don't have to use the crystal
Its a tradeoff, and I find the Scarabs to be a bit better for my needs when I want a "bomb"
The more I think about it the more I’m liking the purge as an ally.
Their trait is that they can reroll attacks against any unit that has suffered a wound in the turn. With all our psykers we should be able to mark targets easily.
I'm pondering about adding some The Scourged renegades and using as Allies to my Thousand Sons.
Basically put everything that shoots and isn't a psyker in the Scourged-detachment and then everything else in the Thousand Sons-detachment.
Should add a bit of flavor and option to the army without being unfluffy, and would basically look like this:
The Scourged:
Chaos Lords, Dark Apostles, Warpsmiths, CSM, Rubricae (maybe), Helbrutes, Terminators, Chosen, Obliterators, Havocs.
Doesn't matter:
Everything else that can be taken by either Thousand Sons or The Scourged.
(Avoid spamming melee-focused units. Neither Thousand Sons nor The Scourged really benefit them.)
demontalons wrote: The more I think about it the more I’m liking the purge as an ally.
I would definitely suggest putting arhiman on a disk now days, changes him from infantry to calvery which is important in the age of 3 vindicare assassins....
topaxygouroun i wrote: Still think daemons are better allies to T.Sons than CSM unfortunately.
I think soup is better than both unfortunately. TSons struggle to make CP due to expensive HQs and struggle with long range firepower. Daemons do cheap battalions and better troops, plus skullreaver daemon prince
In battlescribe (I know this stuff isn't always accurate) it has an option for an Exalted Sorcerer to take two power weapons. However, I only see the option for a single power weapon in the Codex.
Was there an update to the profile somewhere else? Or is this a Index holdover? I checked the FAQ and I didn't see an update there either.
Of course, I could have missed something. Just looking for clarification or being pointed in the correct direction if I did miss something.
In battlescribe (I know this stuff isn't always accurate) it has an option for an Exalted Sorcerer to take two power weapons. However, I only see the option for a single power weapon in the Codex.
Battlescribe is indeed wrong.
The Exalted is armed with a force stave by default and has the option to pick a (single) power sword in addition to any other wargear.
Was there an update to the profile somewhere else? Or is this a Index holdover? I checked the FAQ and I didn't see an update there either.
They added the option in the older FAQ, but it got removed in the latest version. I believe the ebook Codex still has the option, which is why it remains in Battlescribe.
In battlescribe (I know this stuff isn't always accurate) it has an option for an Exalted Sorcerer to take two power weapons. However, I only see the option for a single power weapon in the Codex.
Battlescribe is indeed wrong.
The Exalted is armed with a force stave by default and has the option to pick a (single) power sword in addition to any other wargear.
Not exactly. There was an option to take up two power swords in the Thousand Sons FAQ. In the latest iteration of the FAQ it was removed. However, the digital codex still has the rule for two power swords as normal. So my idea is, they updated the digital codex, thought that would solve the issue and removed the FAQ entry, completely forgetting the physical codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmm, just found out that Abaddon makes tzaangors immune to morale. We might have a case of awesomesauce here.
is there an easy way to find out forgeworld point values? I was thinking of picking up a decimator and want to know the point values for it and the options
A battalion of Thousand Sons with a couple of casters and a fat 30 man tzaangor with DMC.
a battalion of red corsairs featuring 3 chaos lords on bikes with hammers, a fat 20-strong CSM squad and a 30 man cultist bomb.
A detachment of alpha legion with Lord Arkos from Forgeworld.
Some reinforcement points.
Turn 1, the tzaangors DMC forward. The big CSM squad uses "More where they came from" to jump forward. The cultist blob uses Tide of traitors to jump forward. Finally Lord Arkos summons a bloodletter bomb 9" from the enemy,
You now have 4 big blobs in charge range of your opponent on turn 1. The red corsair bike lords can advance a flat 20" and still charge as an icing to the cake.
A battalion of Thousand Sons with a couple of casters and a fat 30 man tzaangor with DMC.
a battalion of red corsairs featuring 3 chaos lords on bikes with hammers, a fat 20-strong CSM squad and a 30 man cultist bomb.
A detachment of alpha legion with Lord Arkos from Forgeworld.
Some reinforcement points.
Turn 1, the tzaangors DMC forward. The big CSM squad uses "More where they came from" to jump forward. The cultist blob uses Tide of traitors to jump forward. Finally Lord Arkos summons a bloodletter bomb 9" from the enemy,
You now have 4 big blobs in charge range of your opponent on turn 1. The red corsair bike lords can advance a flat 20" and still charge as an icing to the cake.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Master of Possession + warptime might be more reliable than Arkos (what protects Arkos if you go second?)
Tho alpha legion infiltrate blob + warptime get a you another infantry unit in place.
A battalion of Thousand Sons with a couple of casters and a fat 30 man tzaangor with DMC.
a battalion of red corsairs featuring 3 chaos lords on bikes with hammers, a fat 20-strong CSM squad and a 30 man cultist bomb.
A detachment of alpha legion with Lord Arkos from Forgeworld.
Some reinforcement points.
Turn 1, the tzaangors DMC forward. The big CSM squad uses "More where they came from" to jump forward. The cultist blob uses Tide of traitors to jump forward. Finally Lord Arkos summons a bloodletter bomb 9" from the enemy,
You now have 4 big blobs in charge range of your opponent on turn 1. The red corsair bike lords can advance a flat 20" and still charge as an icing to the cake.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Master of Possession + warptime might be more reliable than Arkos (what protects Arkos if you go second?)
Tho alpha legion infiltrate blob + warptime get a you another infantry unit in place.
Let's add it to the list instead of replacing Then you're like "Here's my 140 models in your face turn 1. Enjoy.
Has anyone else tried the t1 smashface tsons list?
Basically you run
Deamon prince warlord w/ warptime and aetherstride trait.
Tzaangors
3 x helldrakes
T1 the deamon prince rushes forward, advaces, warp times, and can still charge. On average your getting 30" movement before charging.
Tzaangors get dmc'ed to a striking position 9" away from an enemy line. Using the brayhorn you can get an 8" charge off pretty easily.
The 3 helldrakes are taken because their incredible movement allows them to just move 30" before anything else happens.
This gives us 5 turn 1 charging units. Bonus points for allying in some Red corsair cultists and chaos marines to red tide / tide of traitors for 2 more potential t1 pressure.
Heldrakes are pretty terrible. They can easily charge turn 1, but they don't kill much when they get there, and are quite easy to kill if your opponent goes first.
The Tzaangor Bomb turn 1 is a tried-and-true strategy. Aetherstride Prince works, but it's also serving up "Slay the Warlord" to your opponent on a platter. You can do that same trick with any Red Corsairs Daemon Prince as well, without having to use your warlord trait for it.
I know red corsairs can do it with their dp, but marines and cultists make good back up pressure, not actual pressure like tzaangors can.
I have had mild luck with 1 helldrake myself, your correct in 1 dies way to quick it you dont get t1. Thats why I was interested in 3. If you get t1 3 bale flamers + charge dmg plus 16 tzaangors and a deamon prince hitting an opponents left or right flank (whichever seems weaker) could do some serious damage. On top of all the stuff a mutalith or caster can put on one to buff it up, a demonic str hell drake isnt exactly a weak opponent for example.
But i do see where your coming from. Maybe run 2 detachments, a red corsair for the charge / dont lose slw, and extra cp on top of a tzaangor bomb could do the same thing effectively.
Idk, i just have this idea that hell drakes could be devistating in the right army. My defiler always does better in tsons for example. But maybe renegade chapters would be better
Again, it's really difficult to Heldrakes to ever be "devastating" when they can't actually kill anything effectively. Their shooting attack is mediocre and doesn't pile up enough hits to be impactful, and it has a miniscule number of attacks in close combat. Sadly, the new Lord Dischordant drinks Heldrake's milkshake. Heldrake has it's great movement speed and the fly keyword working for it, but screens are still a thing. Best case scenario would be a Heldrake flying over a screen to lock up a significant unit in close combat, but that's a pipe dream.
I run a unit of 9 of the sky-fire ones in almost all of my lists and they are totally.............mediocre. Their fire power is in a crappy place in that the 2 St5 ap-1 D1 shots are not enough shots to really affect hoards, but not strong enough or damage enough to be a threat to vehicles (plus no VotLW as they are not infantry). So the only thing they are good at killing is really MEQ type units, and we have LOTS of ways to kill MEQ in Thousand Sons lists. Their shooting should really have been 3 St4 ap-1 D1 shots, which would have made them much better against soft infantry, which is something we need. The auto wounding is nice, but doesn't make up for the lack of damage.
Also, they are not very resilient for a 17 point model. They are T4 W2 5++. My usual opponent has storm ravens and the hurricane bolters do a number on them, and anything that does D2 or more just melts these guys. Also, they don't benefit from the cover stratagem if you go second, and they are tall and wide and trying to hide 9 of them out of sight is really difficult, and I usually play on tables with more terrain then you see on most tables at tournaments or on video battle reports. At the current point price they really really need at least a 4++, and maybe T5 (bikes get that, why not discs?). I also use a big blog of flamers, and they are similar being T4 W2 but 4++ and the difference in survival is huge.
they really should be about 11 points per model, with the bow and spear being 1 point each. That would take 9 to be just over 100 points, which is what they feel like they are worth, instead of just over 150 points.
They are not a terrible choice, just not really competitive unless it is a more friendly game. I tend to use mine as a moving screen for my DPs and Tgor sorcerers, which they usually move up, screen, do a small amount of damage somewhere, and then promptly die. I do love the model though.
I have used the spear ones, and they have the same problems, only compounded because you need to get them in combat to use them, and they rarely make it. Really, they are only good is a small squad to counter any FLYER battle role units, and even then it is rare for them to get a kill.
I run a unit of 9 of the sky-fire ones in almost all of my lists and they are totally.............mediocre. Their fire power is in a crappy place in that the 2 St5 ap-1 D1 shots are not enough shots to really affect hoards, but not strong enough or damage enough to be a threat to vehicles (plus no VotLW as they are not infantry). So the only thing they are good at killing is really MEQ type units, and we have LOTS of ways to kill MEQ in Thousand Sons lists. Their shooting should really have been 3 St4 ap-1 D1 shots, which would have made them much better against soft infantry, which is something we need. The auto wounding is nice, but doesn't make up for the lack of damage.
Also, they are not very resilient for a 17 point model. They are T4 W2 5++. My usual opponent has storm ravens and the hurricane bolters do a number on them, and anything that does D2 or more just melts these guys. Also, they don't benefit from the cover stratagem if you go second, and they are tall and wide and trying to hide 9 of them out of sight is really difficult, and I usually play on tables with more terrain then you see on most tables at tournaments or on video battle reports. At the current point price they really really need at least a 4++, and maybe T5 (bikes get that, why not discs?). I also use a big blog of flamers, and they are similar being T4 W2 but 4++ and the difference in survival is huge.
they really should be about 11 points per model, with the bow and spear being 1 point each. That would take 9 to be just over 100 points, which is what they feel like they are worth, instead of just over 150 points.
They are not a terrible choice, just not really competitive unless it is a more friendly game. I tend to use mine as a moving screen for my DPs and Tgor sorcerers, which they usually move up, screen, do a small amount of damage somewhere, and then promptly die. I do love the model though.
I have used the spear ones, and they have the same problems, only compounded because you need to get them in combat to use them, and they rarely make it. Really, they are only good is a small squad to counter any FLYER battle role units, and even then it is rare for them to get a kill.
How are they for capping objectives last minute? As a MSU the 12" M seems like they would be somewhat easy to hide out of sight and then advance out to objectives.
With the disks though do they not gain the Demon keyword, which opens up some (albeit theoretical) synergies with other abilities and strategems? The Tzeench demon psyker version of VotLW seems almost tailor made for these birds.
Sterling191 wrote: With the disks though do they not gain the Demon keyword, which opens up some (albeit theoretical) synergies with other abilities and strategems? The Tzeench demon psyker version of VotLW seems almost tailor made for these birds.
That is true. However, that spell is so much better on Flamers or Horrors. And it doesn't add to the damage for larger targets, so they still don't put out that much damage to larger models. I don't think you can use daemon stratagems on units not from Codexaemons despite the daemon key word (GW really should have used "demonic" and "daemon" keywords to clarify what can and can't be used together).
Using them for late game objective grabbers could be useful, however even with 3 they will still be tough to hide and still die easily to any decent shooting.
I will say I use 9 Enlightened with a Shaman Every game of 2k points. And With casting Presience on them plus the Shaman they are auto wounding on 4+ to hit. And hitting on 2+ even with -1 to hit units and flyers. 18 Shots with half auto wounding right off the bat, plus some additional wounds clears screens easily. They always draw fire, which lets all my other stuff to get moving. When I get first turn I am hitting my opponents line with 30 Tzanagors and a Deamon prince. So they are more focused on them then my Enlighted that can sit back on an objective and keep shooting, or go hunting small MSU units. They have never done me wrong,
Auto Wounding Tanks and Knights on a 4+ to hit (normally rerolling ones)) and forcing saves on a 4+ to most tanks really takes some wounds off early.
KnightScion wrote: I will say I use 9 Enlightened with a Shaman Every game of 2k points. And With casting Presience on them plus the Shaman they are auto wounding on 4+ to hit. And hitting on 2+ even with -1 to hit units and flyers. 18 Shots with half auto wounding right off the bat, plus some additional wounds clears screens easily. They always draw fire, which lets all my other stuff to get moving. When I get first turn I am hitting my opponents line with 30 Tzanagors and a Deamon prince. So they are more focused on them then my Enlighted that can sit back on an objective and keep shooting, or go hunting small MSU units. They have never done me wrong,
Auto Wounding Tanks and Knights on a 4+ to hit (normally rerolling ones)) and forcing saves on a 4+ to most tanks really takes some wounds off early.
That’s pretty much how I envisioned using them. One squad gets Presience, a second Flickering Flames to screen the DP(s) as they zoom upfield and I wheel Rubrics and other units into position midfield. At less than 150 points for a full squad they’re still pretty damn expendable.
KnightScion wrote: I will say I use 9 Enlightened with a Shaman Every game of 2k points. And With casting Presience on them plus the Shaman they are auto wounding on 4+ to hit. And hitting on 2+ even with -1 to hit units and flyers. 18 Shots with half auto wounding right off the bat, plus some additional wounds clears screens easily. They always draw fire, which lets all my other stuff to get moving. When I get first turn I am hitting my opponents line with 30 Tzanagors and a Deamon prince. So they are more focused on them then my Enlighted that can sit back on an objective and keep shooting, or go hunting small MSU units. They have never done me wrong,
Auto Wounding Tanks and Knights on a 4+ to hit (normally rerolling ones)) and forcing saves on a 4+ to most tanks really takes some wounds off early.
That’s pretty much how I envisioned using them. One squad gets Presience, a second Flickering Flames to screen the DP(s) as they zoom upfield and I wheel Rubrics and other units into position midfield. At less than 150 points for a full squad they’re still pretty damn expendable.
Appreciate the insight folks!
Two squads might be good. I only have one, so having a second to threaten units could be viable. However, there still is the defense issue, and they are going to die quick to D2 weapons (like those on knights). I do like using them in most list, I just won't expect them to be on par with top units.
As every Imperium player could easily throw a Culexus in the middle of road now, i would be glad to include some Tzeentch flamers in list. Unit of 6 could be teleported with 1CP, which is also good at killing screening chaff.
Well, IK taken down a peg, and as such Imperial soup.
Imperial soup also pays more for assassin splashing now, and that's nice.
Elf Soup also takes a hit with high elf spells not helping dark elfs any more (and death elf reapers being far less opressive)
Bolter dicipline is great for both rubrics and scarabs, as they pack some of the best bolters around.
Conformation that sorcerers share their perils with the squad (so you start with mooks, not the psyker himself) is nice to have.
Overall, we didn't gain much-but the biggest dogs got smaller, so by comparison we are better.
I am glad we kept Bolter Discipline as that has really been helpful to me in many games with Rubrics and SoT. The change allowing us to take mortal wounds on normal Rubrics and SoT is a really big change. It makes using the sorcerer in those squads soooooo much less dangerous. There have been times I have not cast with them because of the perils risk, and now I think that it is really mitigated. <incorrect statement on DMC is removed to avoid confusion >
I really would have liked Doombolt to go down to WC8 or even 7, as now it is only really useful on Arhiman or a WL with +1 cast. Actually a few of our powers are to much WC, so any fixes on that would have been nice. Overall could have been better but I am happy. How if only we could get some new units so we have more than 3 elites and 2 fast attack choices.
xeen wrote: I am glad we kept Bolter Discipline as that has really been helpful to me in many games with Rubrics and SoT. The change allowing us to take mortal wounds on normal Rubrics and SoT is a really big change. It makes using the sorcerer in those squads soooooo much less dangerous. There have been times I have not cast with them because of the perils risk, and now I think that it is really mitigated. However, I am pretty sure the change to the "arrives on the battlefield as reinforcements" now prevents us from turn 1 using the Dark Matter Crystal, which sucks.
I really would have liked Doombolt to go down to WC8 or even 7, as now it is only really useful on Arhiman or a WL with +1 cast. Actually a few of our powers are to much WC, so any fixes on that would have been nice. Overall could have been better but I am happy. How if only we could get some new units so we have more than 3 elites and 2 fast attack choices.
I really would have liked Doombolt to go down to WC8 or even 7, as now it is only really useful on Arhiman or a WL with +1 cast. Actually a few of our powers are to much WC, so any fixes on that would have been nice. Overall could have been better but I am happy. How if only we could get some new units so we have more than 3 elites and 2 fast attack choices.
Our powers are honestly horrible.
I mean, doombolt is the only WC9 in the game, and it aint even that great.
Firestorm has lower expected value than a minismite
Temporal manipulation and glamour both have identical spells for other armies, except at lower WC, and better range (so our "legion tactic" basically only makes our spells the same range as others get it naturally, but at higher WC?)
And boon of mutation is memetastic, but not serious.
This leaves Weaver of Fates and the DH as our "good" spells, who are basically available to all CSM anyway, so hardly anything special there.
And technically the tzeentch discipline, but that's only available to princes, who very much rather have DH spells, as they are more useful to them. heck, tzeentch spells got enough duds among them as it is (though a few great spells)
Basically, the "update" TS needs the most is not point update, is making our spells not horrible in comparison to everyone else's.
Because what's the point of being the "magic marines", when your choice of magic is outright bad?
Re; DM crystal. Is this confirmed and can you reference where this is in the rules? I took a peek and didn't see it
To confirm, we can use the DM crystal on Turn 1. The relevant language comes on page 8 of the main faq. First, the faq offers language on tactical reserves prohibiting bringing in units from reserve on turn one. Then the faq adds this clarification:
For clarity, this matched play rule does not apply to units that are set up on the battlefield during Deployment, but that use Stratagems, abilities, psychic powers etc. to be removed from the battlefield and set back up during the first or subsequent battle rounds.
I’m thinking of joining the ranks of the sons. I’m coming from Admech as my other army. I’m thinking of building sons for fun but I do like tournaments too so would like to be able to do both eventually
I’m not sure what to buy however as I am in two minds what route to go down. I love the Magnus model the most. From what I gather he’s in a bit of a weird place and can be targeted and killed easily - hence he’s a liability
I like the idea of having loads of models and board presence(something different to how I played my Admech) but I imagine that playstyle would lend itself to hiding >9w characters in the chaff. Magnus probably is the odd one out there
To me he seems like he’s a bit too much for casual games, but not that attractive in competitive ones. Would that be an accurate assessment? Does anyone know a way to make him work for tournaments that doesn’t involve chucking Mortarion with him?
Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic powers), and are then set back up again on the battlefield?A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up, the following rules apply to that unit:1. Any rules that are triggered by or apply to units that are ‘set up on the battlefield as reinforcements’ are also triggered by and apply to that unit when it is set up on the battlefield
It seems to me that it says that all the rules that apply to set up on the battlefield as reinforcements applies to a unit using the DMC. One of those rules is the beta rule that does not allow units who are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements to arrive until turn 2. That is why I said that.
I read the previous post about the FAQ saying it does not apply, which I think would take precedence over the above language, but certainly GW could have been a little more clear about it. Thanks for clarifying.
Your reading that wrong. Its not this rule follows the reinforcement rules, its any other rules that normally can come into play when reinforcements are used also can effect these units.
What they are saying is if you dark matter crystal or da jump a unit from one side of the field to another you can auspex scan if they jump in within 12" as if they were reinforcements.
But they specifically say that units that start on the table and then are moved are NOT reinforcments for the turn 2 deep stike rules.
The FAQ seems to state that after using DMC, the moved unit cannot move in that phase other than charge etc. So warptiming Tzangoors to get more sure charge is now out?
I run a unit of 9 of the sky-fire ones in almost all of my lists and they are totally.............mediocre. Their fire power is in a crappy place in that the 2 St5 ap-1 D1 shots are not enough shots to really affect hoards, but not strong enough or damage enough to be a threat to vehicles (plus no VotLW as they are not infantry). So the only thing they are good at killing is really MEQ type units, and we have LOTS of ways to kill MEQ in Thousand Sons lists. Their shooting should really have been 3 St4 ap-1 D1 shots, which would have made them much better against soft infantry, which is something we need. The auto wounding is nice, but doesn't make up for the lack of damage.
Also, they are not very resilient for a 17 point model. They are T4 W2 5++. My usual opponent has storm ravens and the hurricane bolters do a number on them, and anything that does D2 or more just melts these guys. Also, they don't benefit from the cover stratagem if you go second, and they are tall and wide and trying to hide 9 of them out of sight is really difficult, and I usually play on tables with more terrain then you see on most tables at tournaments or on video battle reports. At the current point price they really really need at least a 4++, and maybe T5 (bikes get that, why not discs?). I also use a big blog of flamers, and they are similar being T4 W2 but 4++ and the difference in survival is huge.
they really should be about 11 points per model, with the bow and spear being 1 point each. That would take 9 to be just over 100 points, which is what they feel like they are worth, instead of just over 150 points.
They are not a terrible choice, just not really competitive unless it is a more friendly game. I tend to use mine as a moving screen for my DPs and Tgor sorcerers, which they usually move up, screen, do a small amount of damage somewhere, and then promptly die. I do love the model though.
I have used the spear ones, and they have the same problems, only compounded because you need to get them in combat to use them, and they rarely make it. Really, they are only good is a small squad to counter any FLYER battle role units, and even then it is rare for them to get a kill.
How are they for capping objectives last minute? As a MSU the 12" M seems like they would be somewhat easy to hide out of sight and then advance out to objectives.
if you play GW ca2018 missions that's pretty impossible, you score points at start or end of ROUND, so last minute run on a obj hardly works
Unless you go 2nd, its one of the best changes to chapter approved in my opinion. Go first, get alpha strike. Go 2nd, get tactical, able to grab objectives at the last minute or at least shoot your opponent off their objectives before they can score.
There is an actual reason to go 2nd. Typically i aim to go 2nd now because of that, unless looking at my opponents army i think i can do enough dmg turn 1 and box them in before they can do anything back board control wise.
BoomWolf wrote: Now that bolter discipline is official I can't seem to justify the flamers.
To expensive and require to much effort to acutely use.
That being said, other than summoning/allying in some Tzeentch flamers, we don't really have another answer to a cullexus...
What about Enlightened with Shaman + Prescience buff? Still auto-hitting / wounding on 4+.
I am btw still running a squad of 5-6 rubrics with flamers if I have some points left. Try to hide them and sometimes they get to kill something worthy after getting warptimed from cover.
If I ever finish my rhino I'll try a squad of 10 every now and then.
Anybody have any recent experience of helping Magnus & TS with either Kairos or LOC? Seems like it would create target saturation for large character class, and both of those cast nicely with +2 bonus. And if I am not mistaken, you could get LOC up to +4 for a smite if cast as a first spel. That would require only an average roll for a mega smite.
On the other hand, LOC can get the impossible robe, which would make it 3++ in practise, robe 4++ and +1 for rolls from emprehmal deamons.
I had success in helping Magnus with a Land Raider in a casual league, most times they killed (or tried to kill) Magnus but could not scratch LR at the same time, so it happily shot away with prescience and a nearby exalted sorc. Once the LR was focus, but Magnus totally demolished that army.
Greetings! I am a (FINALLY!) new convert to the Thousand Sons! They have been one of my favorite Legions since I learned about warhammer, and Thousand Sons is my favorite horus heresy novel! I have come into possession of quite the force of thousand sons recently.
I will have 70 rubrics, 5 SCARAB OCCULT (I scream that in my head every time I read/type/think it), 60 tzaangors, and a few sorcerors. I am not 100% sure on how many sorcerors I will have (I am getting the army next week), so I don't know how many squads I can break up the rubrics into. I know lots of people like small squads...MSU, but I personally hate that.
The imperial guard has been my main army for the past decade, and I like squads of 10+. Are big squads of rubrics decent? I don't need to go out and win GTs or anything like that...just hold my own in a semi-competitive meta. With the new bolter rules and the all is dust rule rubrics seem pretty good to me, if expensive. I plan on running something along the lines of 50 rubrics, 40ish tzaangors, and whatever else I can fit into 2k.
Is using massed rubrics semi-viable, or I doomed to dissapointment?
I pretty much always use 2 10 man rubric squads each in a rhino. They aren't crazy good offensively or defensively but if you park them in cover they can give most armies headaches. Thousand sons got more out of the bolter changes than any other army now that DW SIA isn't compatible. Once the squads are out of the rhinos, they are cheap and fast to capture other objectives or to charge units you want to prevent shooting or to be in the way of units attempting to assault.
I reluctantly assembled my tzaangors and have used them in 5 games now. I must say that they've been effective for their points and are a mainstay unit in my battalion. either warp time them up the field or DMC them and charge into things you want to pin down or prevent shooting or just kill in general. For 220pts for full unit and a bray horn they do nicely, and once they are in the face of the opponent, the Tzeentch buffs go nicely on them.
For me, I notice that thousand sons have a couple blind spots in their army with just the basics: numbers and anti heavy/shock troops. For this, I either take a daemon battalion with changeling, a tz herald and 30-50 pink horrors to be a hard to move cheap block (changeling also gives FNP to daemon princes and Ahriman on disc), or I take 2 armiger warglaives which gives me anti-heavy firepower and a fairly durable shock troop for tying up things. The warglaives are also very fast and so can respond to threats that are a bit far away for the slow rubric army to respond.
My last list was:
Ahriman on disc
DP with wings warlord
DP with wings and DMC
10 rubrics in rhino
10 rubrics in rhino
25 tzaangors
5 SOT 5 SOT armiger warglaive
armiger warglaive
it had a good mix of shooting volume, MW in psychic phase, melee punch between DPs, WGs and SOTs and durability.
Welcome to the Thousand Sons, they are my favorite army as well, and Ahriman is my favorite fictional character. I use Rubrics in most of my lists, at least one squad, and I have actually used them in CSM as Alpha or Black Legion. They are good against most armies, being really hard to shift with small arms. However, if you meta is Knight heavy it is going to be a bit harder as Knights really counter them well with all the D2 high volume shooting the Knights carry, and Thousand Sons don't have a lot of shooting that can deal with T8 multi-wound units. I also second the Tgor bomb, which is pretty good. Also, I have used a small deep-striking Tgor unit to harass back field units and it has worked well for only 80 points. Unless you have to deal with knights all the time, an army with lots of Rubrics should be at least somewhat competitive against most armies. As for other units, I again second using Tzeentch daemons, I like to bring big blob of horrors, or sometimes a Flamers of Tzeentch, which with the right support, can cripple units. I also tend to ally in some CSM for Havocs/Oblits if I want to be more competitive. Good luck!!!
I think running multiple rubrics is actually a viable strategy now - that's the good news.
The bad is that you definitely want to go 5-man squads to unlock double battalion, and leave you with some points for AT.
Finally, you sound like you might like the rubrick approach - a 20-marine blob of rubrics. Here the idea is to leverage our many buffs all on one unit, making them both killy (votlw) and tanky (4++, -1 to hit). One big downside with it is that you should probably hold the dark matter crystal in reserve to fish them out of CC trouble, instead of getting to use it to alpha strike a band of tzaangor on turn 1.
If you're dead set on high numbers of rubrics, I'd go this route, giving you:
Battalion 1
5 rubrics
5 rubrics
5 rubrics
Battaltion 2
20 rubrics
20 tzaangor
20 tzaangor
Automatically Appended Next Post: That's a total of just over 1k on troops btw. It means you might run into some pretty hard counters, but I think it could have an alright day in local competitions (ie a winning-more-than-losing record).
Thank you for the responses! For a time my list will be VERY troop heavy and HQ heavy. I did order a thousand sons contemptor with chainfists from Forgeworld, so once that's built I'll have that as well.
I have been looking at the codex and have a question.
Under options for Exalted Sorcerors it says you can take a power sword for 4 points, or swap the force stave for a pair of power swords (at least on battlescribe).
I don't see that option in the codex, nor do I see it in the Thousand Sons FAQ. Is this an index option that may be going away sometime in the future?
What Change powers are people giving thier Scarab Occult Sorcerers?
I'm trying to decide between Glamour of Tzeentch and Weaver of Fates as protection for his Terminator charges.
dan2026 wrote: What Change powers are people giving thier Scarab Occult Sorcerers?
I'm trying to decide between Glamour of Tzeentch and Weaver of Fates as protection for his Terminator charges.
I always go glamour. If you manage to stick SOTs in cover (which is a lot easier with bolter discipline) weapons need to be -4 ap for weaver of fates to be effective. Whereas glamour is almost always effective.
For example against hellblasters. A unit of 10 in rapid fire overcharged kill:
5.5 sots with glamour
5.5 sots with weaver
2 squads of lascannon devestators kill:
1.4 Sots with glamour
2.2 sots with weaver
An avenger gatling cannon kills:
1.33 sots with glamour
2 sots with weaver
A squad of reaper chaincannon havocs kills:
1 sot with glamour
1.15 sot with weaver
So against a few different common weapons glamour is equal or better than weaver for a blob of SOTs.
I am going to put 2 wardogs w/ autocannons and a tyrant (castellen) into my list. The wardogs 1 will get the warlord trait for psycic deny, the other will get the relic psycic deny so they fit the theme. Finally i am thinking of using the castellen with the double wounds remaining relic. They will be infernal as well.
Will you incorperate one in your 1k sons army? With what setup?
I think the new chaos knight looks really cool, and I had been thinking 3 wardogs even before the new codes. That is what I am torn on is three wardogs or just one knight (I think they are close in points).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also does anyone know if hellforged leviathan dread can have TS legion keyword?
So I'm considering adding a unit of terminators to my collection, the rest of my army currently being pretty heavily... heavy. (Lord Disco, Princes, Maulerfiend, Dreads).
The current choice is between -
'Purge' CSM Terminators, Bolters + Axes - 145pts
Standard setup, but with rerolls built in, so no need for a babysitter. Cheap and cheerful. (relatively speaking).
Scarab Occults, InfernoBolters + Powerswords - 189pts
Slower, more expensive, no rerolls so less accurate. But more AP on bolters, and better defence against weaker attacks. Also has a pocket sorcerer for smite or Glamour.
Honestly not too sure which way to go on it. Scarabs will be marginally more defensive (and if Glamour succeeds, decently more defensive), and their attacks will be more powerful (but less accurate). Also like 33% more expensive though.
Thought you guys might have some thoughts on the Scarabs that I might be missing
To me the scarab are better. The purge requires a wound to have already been done to the unit you want the terms to shoot at (should be easy enough for sure but may not always be available) and isnt really loaded up for any special or specific type of fight. They look like chaff clearers at that loadout. The scarab are much harder to remove if glamor goes off, can actually hurt armored opponents with ap-2, can always smite for 1mw if needed, and have power swords to defend themselves in cc better. So yeah, i would pay the extra 44 pts.
Azuza001 wrote: To me the scarab are better. The purge requires a wound to have already been done to the unit you want the terms to shoot at (should be easy enough for sure but may not always be available) and isnt really loaded up for any special or specific type of fight. They look like chaff clearers at that loadout. The scarab are much harder to remove if glamor goes off, can actually hurt armored opponents with ap-2, can always smite for 1mw if needed, and have power swords to defend themselves in cc better. So yeah, i would pay the extra 44 pts.
This is true plus no veterans of the long war means much less efficient shooting especially vs tough 5-8.
Azuza001 wrote:To me the scarab are better. The purge requires a wound to have already been done to the unit you want the terms to shoot at (should be easy enough for sure but may not always be available) and isnt really loaded up for any special or specific type of fight. They look like chaff clearers at that loadout. The scarab are much harder to remove if glamor goes off, can actually hurt armored opponents with ap-2, can always smite for 1mw if needed, and have power swords to defend themselves in cc better. So yeah, i would pay the extra 44 pts.
Pretty sure getting that initial wound onto a unit will be a lot more reliable than getting Glamour off every turn, especially as I would have at least 2 or 3 psykers and a 2+ BS contemptor on the table (among other things). You're right that they're not really that threatening though, except against chaff units...
Perhaps it would be better to compare them as all-combi-plasma. It's 190pts, so now they're a hair more expensive, but they get 10x overcharged plasma shots, and with the rerolls you'd be unlikely to blow up in your face. Much better shooting than scarabs now (I believe, I might be wrong as scarabs get more shots but they're weaker). Scarabs slightly better in melee against elite opponents, and have Glamour for defence when it goes off.
Edit - I did the maths. Plasma termies beat out the Scarabs against all targets by a small margin vs geq and meq, and by a large margin against everything else. BEFORE you take into account rerolls. The rerolls make it a landslide in favour of the plasma. (Of course you could give the rerolls to scarabs, but that involves 100+ more points in character babysitters)
Double Edit - I didn't take into account the -1 to hit when firing both combi-weapons. This closes the gap slightly, but not by as much as I would have expected. Though you can drop the bolters and just fire the plasma, and you don't really lose much. Plasma alone is still a bigger performer than infernos.
small_gods wrote:
This is true plus no veterans of the long war means much less efficient shooting especially vs tough 5-8.
This does mean using a stratagem on them though. I'm trying to make the unit as decent as possible in a self-sufficient way. I probably would used Veterans on them for one turn against an important target, but it wont be every turn. So if it's 1 turn of veterans, vs 6 turns of all hits being rerolled... pretty sure veterans loses by a large margin? (Reason for not spamming veterans, is that this is a very low CP list).
It does seem like Scarabs might be worth it over bolter-Purge, but the Plasma-Purge seem like a much more potent comparison.
So compairing combi plasma terms to scarab is a different beast. At that point it comes down to this - which is more important? Survivability or Damage Output?
Do not get me wrong, i am not trying to persuade you to pick anything specific. Combi plasma terms definatly do more damage than scarab occult can do. And not wanting to put stratagems or chr rerolls into account is a good idea.
Purge if you need to kill a tank you overcharge the plasma and don't shoot the bolter. Plasma is just damn effective vs all targets this edition. Even 5 plasma shots is typically better than 20 inferno shots depending on the target (assuming outside 12" so no double tap).
But the rubrics can move and fire at full effect, 4 shots a marine. They also have the unique advantage of being able to shrug off heavy bolters and assault cannons like they were bolters (all is dust is awsome). Also if you do get glamor off even plasma wont bother them as they are sitting at a 4++ save unless they are targeted by overcharged at which case glamor means the enemy is blowing up on 1's and 2's, a gamble most players wont make.
My long winded point is if your looking to play more aggressively then go for the purged. If your looking for something to play a bit more defensive the rubrics are your guys.
Azuza001 wrote: So compairing combi plasma terms to scarab is a different beast. At that point it comes down to this - which is more important? Survivability or Damage Output?
Do not get me wrong, i am not trying to persuade you to pick anything specific. Combi plasma terms definatly do more damage than scarab occult can do. And not wanting to put stratagems or chr rerolls into account is a good idea.
Purge if you need to kill a tank you overcharge the plasma and don't shoot the bolter. Plasma is just damn effective vs all targets this edition. Even 5 plasma shots is typically better than 20 inferno shots depending on the target (assuming outside 12" so no double tap).
But the rubrics can move and fire at full effect, 4 shots a marine. They also have the unique advantage of being able to shrug off heavy bolters and assault cannons like they were bolters (all is dust is awsome). Also if you do get glamor off even plasma wont bother them as they are sitting at a 4++ save unless they are targeted by overcharged at which case glamor means the enemy is blowing up on 1's and 2's, a gamble most players wont make.
My long winded point is if your looking to play more aggressively then go for the purged. If your looking for something to play a bit more defensive the rubrics are your guys.
This is pretty much my understanding, and is something I'm keeping in mind. I may well try and squeeze in two units, one plasma-purge and another of scarabs. It depends.
However just to say - "But the rubrics can move and fire at full effect, 4 shots a marine." - So can the normal terminators? Bolters/Plasma can be fired when moving without penalty, just not advancing. The Scarabs get an advantage with heavy weapons, but I'm not taking any heavy weapons really so it's a moot point.
Thanks for the reply, confirms what I was thinking appreciate it
What i meant by that is rubrics get all 4 shots no matter what. The plasma part of the combi plasma can easily get outside double tap range due to not being effected by better bolter rules, only the bolter part does. And if your firing both they are both at -1 to hit so your not overcharging unless your desperate or have a death wish. This means your just not going to be able to fire at full effect with a combi plasma, which may not matter depending again on the target.
Sorry i should have explained that part better lol.
Azuza001 wrote: What i meant by that is rubrics get all 4 shots no matter what. The plasma part of the combi plasma can easily get outside double tap range due to not being effected by better bolter rules, only the bolter part does. And if your firing both they are both at -1 to hit so your not overcharging unless your desperate or have a death wish. This means your just not going to be able to fire at full effect with a combi plasma, which may not matter depending again on the target.
Sorry i should have explained that part better lol.
Ahh I see what you mean. As the terminators would be deepstriking, I'd be trying to be 9-12" from the enemy where possible anyway, but I see your point in that it's not always possible. I'd been doing my calculations as just using the plasma part of the combi anyway really, as you say you can't really fire both parts very easily.
Ahriman and friends - Termi with Sorc armor or normal Sorc? Running a soup list and would take a couple plagues to fit the points... I know the standard A+F list is A+ 2DP but I'm in a points squeeze so had to put in a sorc instead. I see a lot of comp lists running it as a termi sorc, is this because of vindicares to get the extra wound and chance for a save?
maybe even comment on something 
