Out of about 250 lists, Thousand Sons appear in 25, with 6 of those being pure or nearly pure thousand sons lists (less than 500 points of allied units). Predictably the massive majority feature Ahriman and the DPTz, the two obvious star units post-FAQ.
A few unpredictable things though:
1) the number of rubric squads total outnumbers the number of tzaangor squads total. Only 3 lists feature a large unit of tzaangors, despite the DMC still being usable post-FAQ.
2) Scarab occult terminators are vanishingly rare (appearing in only one list) while rubrics appear in 9 out of the 25 lists, and in every pure thousand son list that I can find.
3) Magnus seems to be making a heavy comeback, but who does not seem to be is Tzeentch daemons. Only 2 lists feature any Tzdaemon allies at all, which I would think would come along with Magnus to get him the 6++ from changeling vs turn 1 lascannons.
Scarab Terminators are in 2 lists – mine and there is one person running 3 units of them (I think it’s 3 – might be 2)
I’m also surprised by the low amount of Tzaangor troop choices, but, the fact that you can’t warptime them is probably part of the reason why. Cultists are also so so so much cheaper.
Fair amount of Rubric squads, but there are a couple of lists that go heavy on Tzaangor units (1 list has 3 units of 9 Enlightened and a shaman though). Few others have a couple of smaller squads.
Yeah, Magnus is in a fair number of lists, though, whether he will perform well if anyone’s guess right now. I think a big part of this, is the smite ruling.
I’ve not looked at the daemons lists yet, and I think I only saw 1 Thousand Sons list with some in, which had 3 units of brimstones.
I’m looking forward to it, but, there are some really nasty lists submitted.
I've had a serious reconsideration for the vortex beast. Anyone have some competitive insight? I know in the local store and/or the one off game against a fluffy list the beats performs - but what about semi-competitive / bleeding competitive lists? I personally don't think it would be bleeding edge, but maybe tourny worth at the FLGS? I could see the mortal wound aura actually stacking on quite a bit and/or the ability to bring pinks to 5 str on shooting being valuable. At minimum it is sits at 14W with 7T which isn't great but will soak some fire at 4+ 5++.... 150 points is daemon prince territoryish.
I won 2 out of 3 games at a local semi competitive tournament a few weeks ago with a mutalith. I used it as a mortal wound spammer and it did well. As long as you don't throw it into a fight it can't win (something designed to kill big beasts) it will tear small stuff apart on its own.
I am currently exploring deamons and it. It's powers work on tzeentch models..... that's some awesomeness right there. Screamers getting 3 str 7 ap -3 attacks, or pinks becoming Str 5 with a herald + flickering flames for wounding marines on 2's, it's really got some potential to help strengthen an army.
Azuza001 wrote: I won 2 out of 3 games at a local semi competitive tournament a few weeks ago with a mutalith. I used it as a mortal wound spammer and it did well. As long as you don't throw it into a fight it can't win (something designed to kill big beasts) it will tear small stuff apart on its own.
I am currently exploring deamons and it. It's powers work on tzeentch models..... that's some awesomeness right there. Screamers getting 3 str 7 ap -3 attacks, or pinks becoming Str 5 with a herald + flickering flames for wounding marines on 2's, it's really got some potential to help strengthen an army.
How many did you run? I feel like with one they come out quite squishy and I am not sure what other heavy support options work well for TSons - so I've wound up taking 3 (450 total - significant but across 3 units not terrible)... I was thinking maybe with warptime and some redundancy they could be good? I'm toying with the idea of running them with seekers
Warptime the vortex beast in -> seekers (other detachment) advance and charge turn one -> beast charges -> beast can stay in melee as seekers surround a model during pile in making it shooting immune for a turn... Or similar...
Also running multiple provides flexibility in terms of the mortal wound choice and/or the strength choice. At the end of the day thought - the beast doesn't really do anything until it gets in and there may be better candidates for warptime... I intend to playtest it but as the models clock in at about 90 bucks per - additional comments are welcome.
Is doombolt worth casting? At 9 WC it is super high, but with stratagems and WL traits I can easily make it a 6. It looks like it totally neuters an assault unit.
Azuza001 wrote: I won 2 out of 3 games at a local semi competitive tournament a few weeks ago with a mutalith. I used it as a mortal wound spammer and it did well. As long as you don't throw it into a fight it can't win (something designed to kill big beasts) it will tear small stuff apart on its own.
I am currently exploring deamons and it. It's powers work on tzeentch models..... that's some awesomeness right there. Screamers getting 3 str 7 ap -3 attacks, or pinks becoming Str 5 with a herald + flickering flames for wounding marines on 2's, it's really got some potential to help strengthen an army.
How many did you run? I feel like with one they come out quite squishy and I am not sure what other heavy support options work well for TSons - so I've wound up taking 3 (450 total - significant but across 3 units not terrible)... I was thinking maybe with warptime and some redundancy they could be good? I'm toying with the idea of running them with seekers
Warptime the vortex beast in -> seekers (other detachment) advance and charge turn one -> beast charges -> beast can stay in melee as seekers surround a model during pile in making it shooting immune for a turn... Or similar...
Also running multiple provides flexibility in terms of the mortal wound choice and/or the strength choice. At the end of the day thought - the beast doesn't really do anything until it gets in and there may be better candidates for warptime... I intend to playtest it but as the models clock in at about 90 bucks per - additional comments are welcome.
To be fair I played 1 and it was a 1500 pt tournament. But I also ran a defiler, a 19 model tzaangor squad, and a deamon prince with eatherstride. Turn one I advanced and warptimed my dp into close combat, dark matter crystaled my tzaangors up and charged them in, and advanced a rhino filled with 10 rubrics and the vortex beast. My opponent's did not have the luxury of dealing with the beast on their time, they had already been engaged on 2 fronts and after the big faq there wasn't as much screening being done. No one expected tsons at the tournament to be so quick so I caught people off guard.
If I had 2000 pts i would have taken a second one and probably a second defiler, those things are awesome.
Vaklor4, yes it is. Doombolt when it goes off is clutch, same as death hex. Hit Magnus with it and watch him stall out in the middle of a battlefield. It's hard to get off but when you do it's sweet.
vaklor4 wrote: Is doombolt worth casting? At 9 WC it is super high, but with stratagems and WL traits I can easily make it a 6. It looks like it totally neuters an assault unit.
Go first against poorly positioned Eldar and Lol at their shining spears - you basically won that game from T1.
Paikkio wrote: Hi folks! Which is the best spells loadout for for ahriman and demon princes?
Hi Paikko, there isn't one. It depends on situation.
Ahriman is good for either being certain you're going to cast a vital spell, or casting those that would be unreliable if you didn't use him for it. +1 on 2d6 close to the average curve is a huge deal - +1 to Doombolt bumping it from WC8 to effectively WC7 improves the casting chance by 19%.
Typically Ahriman winds up either my primary source of psychic beatdowns, because that also lets you take advantage of his mobility and combat stats, or if my army is something like a pure horde, he carries my most vital psychic buffs. I'll take a loadout like Doombolt, Gift of Chaos (if against a primarily T3 enemy), Tzeentch's Firestorm (if not), and then because his third cast can be Smite, I'll take something like Temporal manipulation or Boon of mutation on him, a spell you might want every once in a while but only occasionally. For the latter, he'll usually be Prescience/Weaver/Glamour or other such buffs.
I usually don't give him Warptime because that's reserved for a Prince. My first Prince almost always goes Warptime/Diabolic. I field a daemon detachment to give me a screen so I don't need to run Gaze of Fate on the prince - but if you have a second Prince, that isn't a bad idea, especially if you don't have other daemons.
So, I think with Ahriman it depends on whether or not you are also taking Magnus.
If you’re taking Magnus I think Ahriman is more suited to getting those important “support” powers off, whilst allowing Magnus to go hard on the high WC cost powers. If you’re not taking Magnus, then Ahriman can also somewhat reliably fill that gap.
As for Princes, I’ve been toying with 1 having Warptime and Boon of Change – it can make for a scary unit, especially if you also get Diabolic Strength off on it. For a second, depends on what other coverage you have. A second Warptime is always useful, just in case, and then Gaze of Fate is pretty much an auto-take.
Bolt of Change and Infernal Gateway are also pretty nice mortal wound dealers.
Kdash wrote: So, I think with Ahriman it depends on whether or not you are also taking Magnus.
If you’re taking Magnus I think Ahriman is more suited to getting those important “support” powers off, whilst allowing Magnus to go hard on the high WC cost powers. If you’re not taking Magnus, then Ahriman can also somewhat reliably fill that gap.
As for Princes, I’ve been toying with 1 having Warptime and Boon of Change – it can make for a scary unit, especially if you also get Diabolic Strength off on it. For a second, depends on what other coverage you have. A second Warptime is always useful, just in case, and then Gaze of Fate is pretty much an auto-take.
Bolt of Change and Infernal Gateway are also pretty nice mortal wound dealers.
Yeah. Magnus pretty much takes over the mega-beatstick role when you take him because he has access to Gateway alongside Doombolt and Firestorm. I've had Magnus dump out 20+ mortal wounds in a psychic phase before.
Deamon princes of tzeentch can't have warp bolters. The only dp that can is from the index and it's a chaos deamon prince, different name so not able to access the index old equipment rules.
Why no dark matter crystal? Seems odd.
I don't see the point of the tzaangor shamans.
Would love to know how effective the 20 rubrics blob actually was, been trying to find a way to do that myself.
Apologies if this has been answered already but I'm not a regular TS player. Can I use the dark matter relic to teleport a nearby (already deployed) TS infantry unit out of my DZ on Turn 1 into a juicy firing position?
Tonberry7 wrote: Apologies if this has been answered already but I'm not a regular TS player. Can I use the dark matter relic to teleport a nearby (already deployed) TS infantry unit out of my DZ on Turn 1 into a juicy firing position?
Tonberry7 wrote: Apologies if this has been answered already but I'm not a regular TS player. Can I use the dark matter relic to teleport a nearby (already deployed) TS infantry unit out of my DZ on Turn 1 into a juicy firing position?
Yes.
Thanks Captyn that's what I thought. Same would apply to GoI for Grey Knights?
Deamon princes of tzeentch can't have warp bolters. The only dp that can is from the index and it's a chaos deamon prince, different name so not able to access the index old equipment rules.
Why no dark matter crystal? Seems odd.
I don't see the point of the tzaangor shamans.
Would love to know how effective the 20 rubrics blob actually was, been trying to find a way to do that myself.
Yeah, i think the warp bolter thing is something that a lot of people just using battlescribe don't realise.
The DMC might have been taken as an extra relic before each game. It's likely they didn't have to add the extra ones to the list.
I agree, the shamans seem to be nothing more than additional smite spam. For 90 points they do it relatively well, i guess.
Likewise, i'm tempted to run a big squad of Rubric at some point, but part of my things they just don't have that much of a threat potential against anything other than basic troops. They are essentially a big, 440 point wall. Big distraction unit though.
Deamon princes of tzeentch can't have warp bolters. The only dp that can is from the index and it's a chaos deamon prince, different name so not able to access the index old equipment rules.
Why no dark matter crystal? Seems odd.
I don't see the point of the tzaangor shamans.
Would love to know how effective the 20 rubrics blob actually was, been trying to find a way to do that myself.
Yeah, i think the warp bolter thing is something that a lot of people just using battlescribe don't realise.
The DMC might have been taken as an extra relic before each game. It's likely they didn't have to add the extra ones to the list.
I agree, the shamans seem to be nothing more than additional smite spam. For 90 points they do it relatively well, i guess.
Likewise, i'm tempted to run a big squad of Rubric at some point, but part of my things they just don't have that much of a threat potential against anything other than basic troops. They are essentially a big, 440 point wall. Big distraction unit though.
I don't know about that..... 20 rubrics with 2 soulreaper cannons with veterans of the long war can be pretty nasty vs any target.
Don't get me wrong, 35 str 4 -2 shots + 2 soul reaper cannons at 12" range, with prescience, re-roll 1's and VotlW stratagem will do a lot of work, but, it is a lot of work mainly against chaff and low wound non-invuln models/units. Being such a large block, they also run the risk of being tided up in combat frequently.
At 12" with 20 w/ 2 soul reapers it's 43 total shots. Assuming your not wanting to put a lot into it past minimum requirements that's 30 hits, veterans causing 15 wounds on t5-7, at ap-2 that's probably 5+ saves for around 10 wounds to a predator tank.
I am NOT saying "you should always do this because it's always awsome" or anything like that. I am saying that 20 rubrics are a threat to almost everything in the game. Yes they are expensive but you have a wall with teeth.
Doesn't look like a Thousand Sons list at all. Why say you're playing thousand sons at all if you're just playing a bunch of daemon princes and 120 cultists?
Doesn't look like a Thousand Sons list at all. Why say you're playing thousand sons at all if you're just playing a bunch of daemon princes and 120 cultists?
I didn't said "I play TS at all". Why I should play mono TS list when I can combine more chaos army?
Because it's a different codex? It's like saying you are a new Space Wolves Player and playing a smurf army with a couple of Space Wolf characters.
Nothing wrong with it per se, but this is a thread about Thousand Sons tactics. One, you are off topic, your list should be in the Army Lists section. Two, casdark is right, this is a CSM list with 4 Thousand Sons models, three of which you could get from the CSM codex regardless.
Vanguard
Sorcerer (Helm of the Third Eye)
Chaos decimators with soul burners x3
2000 points
8cp (after relics)
Basically low drops - hope to go first, rubrics start in rhinos of course. Throw the vortex beasts up the board with warptime and pop mortal aura and have the tzaangors drop in with the dark matter crystal to give them something to worry about besides the decimators. In the meantime, most spells are going to be damaging (smite/doombolt/infernal gaze/gift of chaos/maaaaybe firestorm) as opposed to protection to really put the hurt in. Rubrics are the antiscreen and would be used for weaver/glamour.
It gives up BGH pretty easily but not much else for ITC (I think) - reaper would be a guaranteed 2 but capped, and headhunter is 3 but would essentially have to wipe my forces to get it.
Going for pure TSons - Most CP going to daemonforge, cabalistic forces, blasphamous machines, VOTLW, warpflame gargoyles, and maybe baleful vortex...
If I'm not mistaken the vortex beasts can stack the -1 ap aura too on the tzaangors(?) should make them shred although I'd have to hit an 8 inch charge with rerolls... At minimum the tzaangors should soak some damage.
Smite spam is basically my counter-charge.
list is too squishy for serious competitive play but thoughts? Maybe drop the rhinos and go for webway infiltration put points towards something else?
I like the base foundation of the list, it's got a lot in common with my 1500 local tournament list.
I don't know what decimators are or how good they are so I can't comment on those.
As for the tzaangors I think you may have better luck with 19 then 29. Your not normally going to get all of them in when you charge even with 19 and the extra 10 models will make it harder for finding a drop zone with the crystal. With the extra points you can turn one of those sorcerers into a deamon prince, our dp units are so good it's a crime not to use one.
Vanguard
Sorcerer (Helm of the Third Eye)
Chaos decimators with soul burners x3
2000 points
8cp (after relics)
Basically low drops - hope to go first, rubrics start in rhinos of course. Throw the vortex beasts up the board with warptime and pop mortal aura and have the tzaangors drop in with the dark matter crystal to give them something to worry about besides the decimators. In the meantime, most spells are going to be damaging (smite/doombolt/infernal gaze/gift of chaos/maaaaybe firestorm) as opposed to protection to really put the hurt in. Rubrics are the antiscreen and would be used for weaver/glamour.
It gives up BGH pretty easily but not much else for ITC (I think) - reaper would be a guaranteed 2 but capped, and headhunter is 3 but would essentially have to wipe my forces to get it.
Going for pure TSons - Most CP going to daemonforge, cabalistic forces, blasphamous machines, VOTLW, warpflame gargoyles, and maybe baleful vortex...
If I'm not mistaken the vortex beasts can stack the -1 ap aura too on the tzaangors(?) should make them shred although I'd have to hit an 8 inch charge with rerolls... At minimum the tzaangors should soak some damage.
Smite spam is basically my counter-charge.
list is too squishy for serious competitive play but thoughts? Maybe drop the rhinos and go for webway infiltration put points towards something else?
I like the Rhinos even though it's difficult to justify the cost. They are a perfect little thing to use warpflame gargoyles with. On the other hand, 9 strong Rubric units are survivable enough that they don't really need it.
I would find some points to upgrade one of your sorcerers to an exalted. This will give your decimators access to the reroll auras. With some more points you can go for the disc + double sword + seer's bane combo too. Although at that point, just get a Daemon Prince right?
As usual with TS, your list has a very low model count and is very slow. I also don't see the purpose of the vortex beasts, you only have one unit of tzaangors and honestly they are mostly there to act as a distraction carnifex than they are to win you the game.
So, I must be misunderstanding the format that lists are posted in this thread/Dakka. Are the units ending in 9 being fielded as under-strength units, or are we just assuming that the sergeant is included to bring the unit up to full strength?
For your list, I’d agree with others and suggest that you try and fit an exalted sorcerer or deamon prince in, so the Defilers benefit from the reroll aura. You may also want to fit in at least one butcher cannon to help deal with hordes. Mortal wounds are awesome, but can make dealing with multiple blobs of chaff hard without morale modifiers.
Vanguard
Sorcerer (Helm of the Third Eye)
Chaos decimators with soul burners x3
2000 points
8cp (after relics)
Basically low drops - hope to go first, rubrics start in rhinos of course. Throw the vortex beasts up the board with warptime and pop mortal aura and have the tzaangors drop in with the dark matter crystal to give them something to worry about besides the decimators. In the meantime, most spells are going to be damaging (smite/doombolt/infernal gaze/gift of chaos/maaaaybe firestorm) as opposed to protection to really put the hurt in. Rubrics are the antiscreen and would be used for weaver/glamour.
It gives up BGH pretty easily but not much else for ITC (I think) - reaper would be a guaranteed 2 but capped, and headhunter is 3 but would essentially have to wipe my forces to get it.
Going for pure TSons - Most CP going to daemonforge, cabalistic forces, blasphamous machines, VOTLW, warpflame gargoyles, and maybe baleful vortex...
If I'm not mistaken the vortex beasts can stack the -1 ap aura too on the tzaangors(?) should make them shred although I'd have to hit an 8 inch charge with rerolls... At minimum the tzaangors should soak some damage.
Smite spam is basically my counter-charge.
list is too squishy for serious competitive play but thoughts? Maybe drop the rhinos and go for webway infiltration put points towards something else?
I like the Rhinos even though it's difficult to justify the cost. They are a perfect little thing to use warpflame gargoyles with. On the other hand, 9 strong Rubric units are survivable enough that they don't really need it.
I would find some points to upgrade one of your sorcerers to an exalted. This will give your decimators access to the reroll auras. With some more points you can go for the disc + double sword + seer's bane combo too. Although at that point, just get a Daemon Prince right?
As usual with TS, your list has a very low model count and is very slow. I also don't see the purpose of the vortex beasts, you only have one unit of tzaangors and honestly they are mostly there to act as a distraction carnifex than they are to win you the game.
Bringing the beasts more or less for the mortal wound aura. Having to choose target priority between decimators doing mortals or the beasts popping 1 mortal (or up to 3 mortals on one unit on 4+ roll) in 9 inches - trying to saturate possible target options to ensure strong mortals coming through every turn. If the aura even goes off once on each beast at 18 inches and hits 4-5 units the unit nearly pays for itself (plus maybe one melee)?
Maybe I'll swap one petard on the decimator to butcher cannon - this will open up the possible morale concern and save some points, which I can probably snip into that aspiring sorcerer / DP everyone is hinting at.
Units are at strength 9 because it clocks in under reaper on ITC rules.
Had a couple game of trial and error since jumping back into the game. The biggest problem I have found is I lack a significant ranged anti tank punch. The 4 main options I see (Exalted Flamer, Burning Chariot, Lascannon/Missle Helbrute, and quad Lascannon Predator) don't appeal to me for different reasons.
But I have just found the TS Contemptor on FW. What is the opinion of running 2 with twin C Beams for a ranged anti tank base? I guess it should be noted I am also running an Aetherstride Daemon Prince and Magnus, so that should be a bit distracting.
Doesn't look like a Thousand Sons list at all. Why say you're playing thousand sons at all if you're just playing a bunch of daemon princes and 120 cultists?
I didn't said "I play TS at all". Why I should play mono TS list when I can combine more chaos army?
I found this imperial guard list online. What do you think?
Company Commander
Company Commander
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Custode Bike Shield-Captain
Custode Bike Shield-Captain
Custode Bike Shield-Captain
What are you supposed to say other than "yep, those sure are three different thousand sons units that everyone knows are competitive in that soup list you just posted. Looks good. It'll win you events. Hope you get finished painting your 120 cultists before GW nerfs them, good luck!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AverageBoss wrote: Had a couple game of trial and error since jumping back into the game. The biggest problem I have found is I lack a significant ranged anti tank punch. The 4 main options I see (Exalted Flamer, Burning Chariot, Lascannon/Missle Helbrute, and quad Lascannon Predator) don't appeal to me for different reasons.
But I have just found the TS Contemptor on FW. What is the opinion of running 2 with twin C Beams for a ranged anti tank base? I guess it should be noted I am also running an Aetherstride Daemon Prince and Magnus, so that should be a bit distracting.
C-beams are fine, but personally for me it's butcher cannons or bust. The big drawback to autocannon type weaponry as opposed to lascannons S7 vs the S8+ meaning you wound the vast majority of tanks in the game on 4s or 5s rather than 3s or 4s. Butcher cannons fix that, and have a cute little morale rule as a little cherry on top if you decide to open up on some primaris marines or something.
AverageBoss wrote: But I have just found the TS Contemptor on FW. What is the opinion of running 2 with twin C Beams for a ranged anti tank base? I guess it should be noted I am also running an Aetherstride Daemon Prince and Magnus, so that should be a bit distracting.
I love them, I think they're the single best model TSs have available to them. I have two myself, and normally run one with double chainfist and ectoplasma blasters and one with double c-beam or double butchers. Mr Fisto is a horror with 4++ in CC and 5 attacks, -4/4D, and has a base 9" range so is a great candidate for warptime. His guns are legit too, but only have an 18" range.
C-beam is the coolest weapon, but Butcher cannons just seems to wreck face for some reason. They are flexible, in that they can shake a unit up before a charge, for example, causing a lot of models to flee, or they can drop an expected 5 damage on a predator. They make good terminator hunters, but also are well suited to lighter armoured units, so are happy shooting at Drukhari. A flexible weapon.
Buy them. they're good units but better models, you'll have a lot of fun putting them on the table.
Finally, their aesthetic helps tip your army back to a more Rubricae theme, if you're running Tzaangors.
I'm running 2 contemptors with 1 butcher and 1 c-beam each this weekend at the LGT. Will let everyone know how that setup does or whether double butcher just seems better.
I appreciate all the feedback. Though there seems to be a few quite different opinions on how to run them. I suppose I should have posted the rest of my planned list so everyone would have a better idea of what would compliment it best.
My funds are limited, so I have to pick my arms carefully. I will probably go with 2 Osiris (I like that sculpt far more). I will probably be able to get away with using its included arm as a chainfist locally due to the attached sword. Then with the sale that is going on, I can buy two arms/weapons and get 2 free.
Your deamon allies seems odd. Are you doing that for cheap cp?
Your list seems to have a few big hitters and a lot of other stuff that can just be ignored. 3x10 brimstones, 2 changecasters, 2x10 cultists , these are easy to kill objective holders at best.
So my question is what kind of games do you normally play? Maelstrom? Open war?
The Daemon allies are there for cheap CP, easy access to Flamers, and 2 Gaze of Fate caddies with the Changecasters.
Cultists and Brimstones are there for objective holding, and chaff. 170 points for 50 wounds seemed like an okay investment to me.
As for Maelstrom and Open. Not sure what my club regularly plays. Just getting back in from a hiatus stretching back to the start of 5th ed, so out of the loop.
Played my first game with the Ksons today at my new LGS.
for 2000 points I fielded everything I have put together thus far
Magnus
Ahriman on disc
3 units of 5 SOT with soulreaper and misses
10 rubrics with soul reaper
10 rubrics with soul reaper and 6 warp flamers
rhino
rhino
not an optimum list, but it's what I had put together
played against IG/custodes army with:
Pask
LRBT LRBT LRBT
company commander
primaries psyker
10 guard with a plasma gun
10 guard with a plasma gun
10 guard with a plasma gun
I lost by a narrow margin but I should have flown Magnus into the tank company turn one instead of going after and killing a jet bike squad.
Ahriman can mix it up in combat better than you'd think with the 3 flat damage from his staff.
overall, my list had a tough time with all the multiple wound models with insulin saves. Magnus used death hex to wipe out bikers on two turns but died at the bottom of turn 2 after getting 3 combat phases. Ahriman, one SOT squad, the rubric squad with 8 bolters and a rhino lived to the end of the game with me playing catchup on objective points at the top of each turn.
Our biggest weakness atm is anti tank. There are a lot of options for a solution but in the end our best option is to punch the tank, which isn't the best option. :p
How did you like scarab occult terms? I run mostly rubrics but have been thinking of picking a few up and trying them.
Their shot output was respectable, and with VOTLW they did ok against the customs bikers, but as they had a 4+inv save they didn't shred them by any means. Also, against the LRBTs, they needed 6's to wound in melee but if that happened it was almost always going through. Also, I forgot to fire my hellfire missiles for the entire game. I also did not fire the warp flame pistols into combat during my shooting phases at all during the game. Mini smites actually added non-trivial damage throughout the game to the high toughness models.
In cover, they were getting 3+ saves against battle cannons, which was pretty decent.
Overall, my WF rubric squad died trivially even when in cover to many lasgun and battle cannon shots. One scarab term squad died to a slew of bad save rolls from hurricane bolters and my opponent could not miss (even with -1 to hit and no rerolls against Magnus one turn, only 1 out of 36 shots missed him. on another occasion, 36 shots yielded 23 wounds against the terminators.)
It was nice to drop down unmolested and shoot 20 shots into a target with a chance of charging. Also, getting spells where you need them is helpful; temporal manipulation on Magnus, prescience on the inferno bolter rubrics and such.
Automatically Appended Next Post: just to add, the only weapons the rubric rule meant anything against for the entire game was heavy bolter shots. So not really an ideal matchup for sure.
Also, spell selection is such a huge part of the game when you have so many casters. I put death hex on Magnus, which compelled me to go after the custodes with him, but it would have been better to have DH on Ahriman and have Magnus go after the tank company. Be smart about spell selection.
Kdash wrote: Just got home from the 40k London GT. Will do a write up of my games and thoughts tomorrow when i'm more awake.
Certainly was more of an "all or nothing" feel to my army though.
look forward to it.
I am trying to come up with a solution at 1500 pts to the "Dark Eldar Raider/Ravager" nonsense. A single Archon giving rerolls to hits and wounds and the Ravager buying a Raider for the BlackHeart group then putting a different group into the raiders (Warriors with the +6" increase to the range rules) is a pain to deal with. Add in Venoms from the same group the warriors came from with dual splinter cannons they can really hurt our Mutalith / Deamon Princes and put the hurt on any vehicles we take, even with our invun saves if they get first turn we can say goodbye to a defiler or 2.
I don't want to go to another codex, but will if thats the best option without going forgeworld. Its why I was interested in the Scarab Occult Terms. I did have luck dropping 20 rubrics in and blasting away with Vets of the Long War, but thats a 400+ pt answer that I am not sure is the best.
Is the Contemptor Dread from FW actually a valuable addition to your TS army?
I always like the models and wanted to paint some just for joy, but with the final goal of an army.
I don't know in which spot TS are in today, I guess they're not overly competitive, but can they hold their own?
Are Tzaangors and their weird models a good addition to run? I wouldn't mind a Tzang squad and a Shaman, but I wouldn't want to go all crazy about them. They look ridiculous.
Ok, so, time to go over how I did at the London 40kGT, with my pure Thousand Sons list.
For starters, I’ll recap my list in the spoiler below.
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment, Thousand Sons [862 points] +5 CP HQ1: Ahriman on Disc of Tzeentch (166)
HQ2: Daemon Prince of Tzeentch (146), Malefic Talon (0), Malefic Talon (10), Wings (24) – WARLORD - [180pts] – Aetherstride trait
HQ3: Daemon Prince of Tzeentch (146), Malefic Talon (0), Malefic Talon (10), Wings (24) – [180pts] – Dark Matter Crystal
Troop1: 12 Chaos Cultists, 12x Autogun - [48pts]
Troop2: Rubric Marines – [107pts]
Troop3: Rubric Marines – [107pts]
Transport1: Chaos Rhino, 2x Combi-bolter – [74pts]
Vanguard Detachment, Thousand Sons [693 points] +1 CP HQ1: Exalted Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch, Inferno Bolt Pistol, 2x Power Sword (8) - [141pts] – Helm of the Third Eye
Elite1: Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought, Butcher cannon, C-beam cannon – [163pts]
Elite2: Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought, Butcher cannon, C-beam cannon – [163pts]
Elite3: Scarab Occult Terminators, Hellfyre Missile Rack, – [226pts]
Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment, Thousand Sons [445 points] +0 CP LoW1: Magnus the – [445pts]
So, each game was a mix of Eternal War and Maelstrom missions, game types are below. All Tertiary missions were the same throughout - First Blood, Linebreaker and Slay the Warlord.
Spoiler:
GAME 1
Eternal War - Dominate and Destroy,
Maelstrom - Tactical Gambit
Map – Search and Destroy
GAME 2 Eternal War – No Mercy,
Maelstrom - Spoils of War
Deployment Map – Dawn of War
GAME 3
Eternal War - MODIFIED Big Guns Never Tire (only objectives 1 to 4 count for scoring purposes),
Maelstrom - Contact Lost
Deployment Map - Vanguard
GAME 4
Eternal War – MODIFIED Resupply Drop (eliminate 2 objectives rather than 4),
Maelstrom - MODIFIED Race to Victory (only maelstrom scoring stops when a player achieves 10 objectives, the game continues as normal)
Deployment Map - Search and Destroy
GAME 5
Eternal War - MODIFIED Frontline Warfare (you may score the points for eternal war every turn, not at the end of the game),
Maelstrom - Kill Confirmed
Deployment Map – Frontline Assault
Game 1, I was up against Ultramarines. No BobbyG, but a Captain that was upgraded to a Chapter Master and a Lieutenant. Decent guy, he and 2 others had travelled across from France to take part.
Spoiler:
His list was –
Battalion
Captain with Santic Halo (Warlord and upgraded to Chapter Master)
Lieutenant
2x 5 scouts with bolters
1x 5 scouts with snipers
Apothecary
Company Ancient with relic banner
1x 5 Hellblasters
1 dakka Repulsor
Spearhead
Chronus
1x 4 lascannon Predator
3x Devestators with 4 lascannons and Cherubs
1x Stormraven with heavy bolters, hurricane bolters and assault cannon
Disatous game for me. I didn’t get first turn. Had nowhere to hide Magnus. I lost Magnus, my Rhino, 1 Contemptor and my Cultist screen on his 1st turn.
My 1st turn saw me get 4.5 perils (I re-rolled 1 6 into another 6….) I made a mistake here as well. I forgot about casting Gaze of Fate first, so I might have been able to stop 1 of the perils. As it stood, Ahriman killed himself to perils 1st turn and my Exalted Sorcerer dropped 2 wounds.
Both princes managed to get charges off, but the Warlord failed to kill the Hellblasters and the other prince only killed 2 of the lascannons from 1 team, which was pretty disappointing. I also managed to kill the Lieutenant through psychic powers.
I survived reasonably ok turn 2, dropping a few wounds on things and loosing 1 rubric squad. My turn 2 saw my terminators drop in and kill 1 lascannon team in shooting, but, they then made the charge into some scouts and failed to kill them. After 2 turns of combat there was 1 scout left. Extremely disappointing!!!
I also kept forgetting about the missiles. Might have helped with a couple of wounds here and there, but wouldn’t have swung the game for me.
It was all over by the end of his turn 4.
In total, I think I killed maybe 4 units. He did say after though, that had I gone first things would have been in my favour. Biggest thing I took from this is that Magnus still dies waaaay too easily in most situations and that my list was playing as an “all or nothing” style.
Final score was 35-8 to the Marines.
Game 2, I was up against a player running Guard and Blood Angels.
Spoiler:
His list was
Guard Brigade
3x company commander
1x primaris psyker
6x infantry squad with vox casters
1x 6 bullgrynes
2x command squads with standards and vox casters
3x 1 scout sentinels with autocannons
3x 3 lascannon heavy weapon squads
Vanguard
Captain – storm shield, thunder hammer, angels wing and the warlord trait for +1 damage on the hammer.
Lemartes
2x 10 death company with 2 thunder hammers
1x 5 basic sternguard
1 drop pod
So, this game started out really well for me. I killed the sentinels, a couple of guard squads, 1 lascannon base and 2 of the bullgryn, whereas his 1st turn saw nothing of mine die. He did however start to blob up his units, starting with 2 of his heavy weapon squads (which I now think was done incorrectly, due to it only working on Infantry Squads – did not make a difference though)
Turn 2, I killed the bullgryn unit and primaris psyker, but then only half killed some squads. Terminators dropped in and failed to shoot 1 infantry squad to death then failed their charge into another. His turn 2, saw 2 infantry squads blob together and all his deep striking came in. 1 Squad of Death company, Lemartes and the Captain all successfully charged Magnus and killed him – even with -1 to hit and a 3++. I did interrupt and pretty much kill the entire of 1 Death Company squad though, with Magnus. Non warlord Prince died to weight of fire, the 2nd Death company squad dropped in and charged and killed my Exalted Sorcerer and the Sternguard dropped in back field and did no damage.
Turn 3, saw my Terminators fail to do anything again, and failed their charge again. Moving 4” really sucks at times! I cleared up a couple of units and the Terminators finally killed the 2 squads they were after and managed to claim an outstanding maelstrom objective card. Contemptors did a handful of wounds to the full Death Company squad and 1 squad of Rubrics dropped the Sternguard down to 2 models. His turn 3 saw him start to pull back in terms of points. His Captain and Lemartes started doing all the work. Killed Ahriman this turn and moved toward my Warlord. His 7 large Death Company unit charged one of my Contemptors and did nothing to it, while the Contemptor killed 2 of the Death Company.
Turn 4 I thought my Warlord could kill the Captain. Turns out I was wrong…. Terminators did a couple of wounds, Rhino and Rubrics hardly did anything. He killed my warlord in the fight phase. His turn saw him kill one squad of Rubrics and that was it.
The game ended at this point due to time.
Final score was 22-20 to him. The final turn saw him swing the points back.
Again, had Magnus survived I would have easily won, but, 4 damage Thunder hammer attacks hurt, especially when wounding on 2’s.
I DID FORGET ABOUT DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR IN BOTH THIS GAME AND GAME 1 THOUGH BECAUSE I AM AN IDIOT!!!!!
I focused too much on making sure I was getting my share of turns in and following my plan that I forgot about the extra attacks.
Game 3, I was up against a mix of Death Guard and Nurgle Daemons.
Spoiler:
His list was
Battalion
Typhus
1x Plaguecaster
2x 5 Plague marines – 1 with 2 blight launchers and 1 with 3 plasma.
1x 20 Plaguebearers
1x Blightbringer
3x Plagueburst Crawlers
Outrider
1x Daemon Prince of Nurgle with Wings and Axe
2x 1 Bloat-drone with plague spitters
1x 1 bloat-drone with fleshmower
2x 3 plague drones
Turn 1 saw me get 1st turn charges with 1 prince and Magnus into his daemon drones, while my warlord failed his charge. I also all but killed both his plague marine squads. I left 1 drone squad with 1 remaining and the other with 2 remaining. His 1st turn saw him try to pile everything into Magnus, but he survived it easily. His Fleshmower managed to drop my warlord down to 2 wounds though.
Turn 2 saw his main flank just collapse. The prince started continually tie up the crawler that was on that side of the table while Magnus destroyed everything else. A combination of psychic and melee saw his caster, both shooting drones, both squads of daemon drones and the plague marines killed. I also left the fleshmower on 1 wound after running my Warlord away in an attempt to actually not suicide him again… My terminators actually did something this game. They dropped down and killed the blightbringer in shooting, then charged the plaguebearers. They were then tied up for the next 2 full turns. His turn 2 saw his fleshmower chase my warlord. Didn’t kill him in combat, but, I made him explode after so my warlord still died :( The 2 crawlers that could shoot again failed to do many wounds to Magnus. After this point, I just kept locking up 2 crawlers with my Rhino and 1 Prince.
Final score was 24-6 to me. I didn’t manage to kill a single crawler so I didn’t get any big game hunter eternal war points, but I managed to hold the 4 main objectives at the end of the game.
Day 2, started off with my vs Necrons, on table 97 out of 183.
Game 4
Vanguard (novokh)
1x Overlord – warlord, veil of Darkness
Deceiver C’Tan
1x 13 flayed ones
1x 10 Lychguard with warscythes
So, I got turn 1, put the C’tan down to 2 wounds in the psychic phase and killed a whole lot of warriors. Killed a couple of destroyers as well. I also did something different this game. Instead of deep striking the Terminators, I started them on the table and used the Crystal on them. This worked well, until I failed their charge, Magnus’ charge and the charge on both Princes. His turn 1 saw a lot of his dead pile come back to life and his Lychguard dropped in behind my Terminators then killed them in combat. His destroyers put 3 wounds on Magnus.
Turn 2 saw me take control. I killed his normal Overlord, lord and Cryptek (he used the stratagem to bring the overlord back). I also killed the squad of 20 warriors and half killed the others. His turn 2 saw his Lychguard charge Magnus, but they failed to do anywhere close to enough damage. Magnus then killed them in combat and via morale.
By the end of my turn 4, I had tabled him.
Final score was 37-5 to me.
Game 5, I was up against Aeldari.
Spoiler:
His list was
Patrol – black heart – Drukari
Archon – warlord + living muse relic
1x 20 kabalites with 2 splinter cannons
Battalion – Craftworlds – Alaitoc
Autarch Skyrunner with fusion gun and laser and Phoenix Gem relic
1x Farseer
1x 20 Guardians with 2 Shruiken Cannons
2x 5 Rangers
1x Bonesinger (for fun as much as anything)
1x 5 Swooping Hawks
1x Hemlock
2x Wave Serpent with triple Shuriken Cannons
Spearhead – Craftworlds – Alaitoc
1x Autarch with Reaper Launcher
3x 1 Fire Prisms
So, I got first turn, had a fantastic psychic phase. Half killed 1 Wave Serpent, and then killed the 2nd in Combat with Magnus. I used the Crystal on the Terminators again, and they managed to get a charge off on 1 of the Prisms and heavily damage it due to Verterans of the Long War. I also dropped the Hemlock down to 6 wounds, and a few other wounds off another Fire Prism.
His turn 1 saw all his reserves arrive in his own deployment zone. His hawks managed to get 3 mortal wounds on my Terminators which was pretty funny. His entire army then shot at Magnus and everything that could, charged him. Magnus survived with 1 wound remaining. I also killed his Autarch with Magnus in the fight phase by interrupting combat.
He conceded at this point. While he still had some big guns on the table, my turn would have seen the vast majority of his army die, leaving him with likely 1 and a half Fire Prisms and a couple of infantry models here and there.
After working out the points, the final score was 91-3. Ignoring the score, it was a really funny game and the guy I was playing was fantastic.
So, main take observations and thoughts.
The bad.
If I don’t get 1st turn and Magnus dies, my army struggles massively.
I don’t feel like I had enough board presence. The cultists often survived, but, all they generally did was hold 1 or 2 objectives. Once I moved my Princes and sometimes other units forward, I didn’t have any protection for them in a lot of cases.
Contemptors pretty much did nothing in all of the 5 games. They did a couple of wounds here and there, but, beyond that they just didn’t seem to do anywhere near as much damage as I was hoping for. Their 2+ BS did help in the last game though vs all the to hit penalties.
Terminators were very hit or miss when it came to combat and dropping in from deep strike. 2 attacks with power swords just doesn’t really cut it.
The good
When I went first, it went really well. The amount of pressure I could put out with psychic powers was really strong. I didn’t even need to spam smite to do this.
Terminators using the Crystal Relic instead of deep striking is really interesting. Certainly contemplating running a bigger squad of them. 20, strength 4, ap -2 shots from a squad of 5 is extremely handy. As a fire base in the centre of the table, or a flank they are an incredible distraction. Expensive though.
To be fair, on reflection, I don’t feel like I went up against many “super strong” lists, which was an unfortunate result of me getting destroyed game 1. This was a shame, because the large majority of “top table” lists at the even contained a lot of Custodes Jetbikes. I didn’t face these once, but, my list was setup to completely destroy them, so, in that regard it was a bit disappointing!
The winning list at the event was
Spoiler:
Guard battalion
2x commander with grand strategist and aquila
3x infantry squads
1x 5 ratlings
Outrider
Shield captain on jetbike with 3++ bike
2x 3 jetbikes with hurricane bolters
1x 8 jetbikes with hurricane bolters
1x Praetor in terminator aarmour with -1 to hit banner
Vanguard
2x Eversor
1x Cullexus
This list ended on 100 points, so he got max wins in every game. I look at this list and just think “let him go first, then just mortal wound spam for days” alongside a Death Hex. There were a lot of Custodes Jetbikes at this event.
The top “Thousand Sons” list at the event was
Spoiler:
Outrider
Ahriman
1x Daemon Prince with wings and talons
1x 29 Tzaangors with Brayhorn
1x Tzaangor Shaman
1x 9 Enlightened with bows
2x 3 Enlightened with spears
1x Heldrake with flamer
Daemon battalion
1x Changecaster
1x Fluxmaster
1x 28 Pink Horror with icon and instrument
2x 10 Brimstones
1x6 flamers
Daemons Patrol
1x Bloodmaster
1x 30 Bloodletters with icon and instrument
This won 5 out of 5 games with a final score of 80/100. Classed as Thousand Sons due to them declaring it as their main detachment.
So, changes.
I personally think I’ll make the following changes going forward at a minimum.
Drop Magnus
Drop both Contemptors
Add 3rd Daemon Prince
Add a Tzaangor blob as a forward screen.
Beyond that I’m not 100% decided.
It was a good event, and I’d have gone a lot better for me if I didn’t do soooooo badly in game 1.
Overall, I finished 54th out of 365 players.
Kdash wrote: Just got home from the 40k London GT. Will do a write up of my games and thoughts tomorrow when i'm more awake.
Certainly was more of an "all or nothing" feel to my army though.
look forward to it.
I am trying to come up with a solution at 1500 pts to the "Dark Eldar Raider/Ravager" nonsense. A single Archon giving rerolls to hits and wounds and the Ravager buying a Raider for the BlackHeart group then putting a different group into the raiders (Warriors with the +6" increase to the range rules) is a pain to deal with. Add in Venoms from the same group the warriors came from with dual splinter cannons they can really hurt our Mutalith / Deamon Princes and put the hurt on any vehicles we take, even with our invun saves if they get first turn we can say goodbye to a defiler or 2.
I don't want to go to another codex, but will if thats the best option without going forgeworld. Its why I was interested in the Scarab Occult Terms. I did have luck dropping 20 rubrics in and blasting away with Vets of the Long War, but thats a 400+ pt answer that I am not sure is the best.
Personally, the best way i found for killing characters is psychic powers. So many of them can target any unit you want and have a decent range. 2-3 powers will kill 99% of all characters on average. Infernal Gaze, Doombolt, Bolt of Change, even Infernal Gateway came in handy in a few games (especially the necron game). Firestorm can also help.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JohnnyRotten wrote: Is the Contemptor Dread from FW actually a valuable addition to your TS army?
I always like the models and wanted to paint some just for joy, but with the final goal of an army.
I don't know in which spot TS are in today, I guess they're not overly competitive, but can they hold their own?
Are Tzaangors and their weird models a good addition to run? I wouldn't mind a Tzang squad and a Shaman, but I wouldn't want to go all crazy about them. They look ridiculous.
So the Contemptors with my setup just didn’t do enough in my opinion. Double butcher cannons might have been better for the additional shots. C-beams look decent on paper vs infantry units but, I just felt like I wasn’t getting enough out of them.
Dropping them does mean I leave a big gap in my army in regards to long range, high dmg shooting though.
I took them originally, because I had the models, I like them and wanted to test them out.
Thank you for the review! It was great to know how TS can fare in the competitive environment.
As for Magnus, I've found him too easy to kill too. In today's crazy shooty metagame even 3+/3++ mean almost nothing against a strong opponent. I personally dropped him and now try to use that points to take some long-range shooting, mainly a trio of Khorne Scull Cannons in Spearhead detachment.
Azuza001 wrote: Great write up! Thanks for the insite. Sounds like game 1 you just got bad rolls. :(
Yeah it was definitely an out lying game, but, it happens from time to time.
Not sure it would have had much impact on the game though if Ahriman had survived or the terminators killed the scouts first round. After Magnus died, i didn't really have the ability to take on everything he had on the table :(
How are people finding Daemon engines backed up by Heralds or Daemon Princes?
I've been tempted to run two Gatling forgefiends with the changeling with flickering flames sandwiched between them.
Also, do you guys find that you need a re-roll 1's babysitter with daemon engines? As the Daemonforge strategum only affects one of them.
I was wondering if anyone with experience can talk a newbie through the options for Tzaangors and my next purchases.
Is it chainsaw and pistol or is it double blades as a load out or are they useful in different situations?
I have a painted Magnus done (cool model - GW stole my money), 10 Rubrics on the go and an Ahriman waiting to be painted. What would you suggest next so I can get Ahriman and the Rubrics on the table quickly?
Azuza001 wrote: Great write up! Thanks for the insite. Sounds like game 1 you just got bad rolls. :(
Yeah it was definitely an out lying game, but, it happens from time to time.
Not sure it would have had much impact on the game though if Ahriman had survived or the terminators killed the scouts first round. After Magnus died, i didn't really have the ability to take on everything he had on the table :(
Nice write up, really interesting to read.
All in all your TS army seemingly did quite well. Although you wrote that you didn't feel like competing with the toptables lists, you never fought the lists your composition was designed for, so I guess it evens out.
The Contemptors are cool models, so is Magnus. I only heared good things about a 20-30 Tzangoors screen with blades, when a Shaman gets mixed in. Eventhough I don't really like the Tzeentch models, especially when a list has 9+ Enlightened.
The Best TS list of the event was just a demon soup list, I wouldn't even touch this mess nor call it anywhere near a TS list. I would prefer a pure TS list anytime, adds much more flava.
Maybe keep the Dreads in case you fight a more 'Jetbikey' list and just drop Magnus and add a Tzaangor screen + Shaman for a couple of games. Just a little change step by step and maybe you'll discover a suited alternative if you're still not satisfied with the dreads.
I mean your list didn't fail completely.
The word was spread that Termis are actually not topnotch in this edition, but their models are too cool and scarabs are clearly some of the better termi-options out there.
I think it was pretty ballsy to bring Magnus to an event, bc he's just a fire magnet and doesn't endure as much like Morty fe. .
EmissaryOfTzeentch wrote: I was wondering if anyone with experience can talk a newbie through the options for Tzaangors and my next purchases.
Is it chainsaw and pistol or is it double blades as a load out or are they useful in different situations?
I have a painted Magnus done (cool model - GW stole my money), 10 Rubrics on the go and an Ahriman waiting to be painted. What would you suggest next so I can get Ahriman and the Rubrics on the table quickly?
Thank you for the help.
If you want to run Tzaangors blades is generally the way to go with them, as you kinda want them in combat asap. So, usually blades and a brayhorn then deploy them using the Dark Matter Crystal relic or via the webway stratagem. A cool little buff for them is from the Shaman, and it only costs 90 points.
A battalion is prob the best way to go now though, so you need either a Daemon Prince or an Exalted Sorcerer/Normal Sorcerer. The Daemon Prince is hands down the best, but i love the Exalted Sorcerer model on a disc, especially with double power swords. This also means you either need a 3rd troop unit, or you need to split the Rubric squad into 2 units of 5. Cheapest way to get this, points wise, is with a Cultist squad, but if you're not bothered right now, i personally think Rubric squads are just so much cooler.
Depends what you're aiming for - as Magnus, Ahriman on a disc, Daemon Prince with wings, 2x 10 Rubrics, 1x 20 Tzaangors and a Shaman clocks in at 1421 points. You could drop it to 19 Tzaangors and add in a Rhino with 2 combi bolters and a havoc launcher which gets you to 1499 points.
However, with a list like that, you'll either get totally destroyed each time Magnus dies in your first turn, or, he'll survive and you'll probably likely remove 1/3rd of your opponents army from the first psychic phase. However, noone can really hate you too much, because they are too busy yelling about how "bad" rubric marines are, and 2 squads of 10 is essentially 1/3rd of your points
EmissaryOfTzeentch wrote: I was wondering if anyone with experience can talk a newbie through the options for Tzaangors and my next purchases.
Is it chainsaw and pistol or is it double blades as a load out or are they useful in different situations?
I have a painted Magnus done (cool model - GW stole my money), 10 Rubrics on the go and an Ahriman waiting to be painted. What would you suggest next so I can get Ahriman and the Rubrics on the table quickly?
Thank you for the help.
Get the AoS tzangoors with blades. They're the best option in 40k also and you can use them in both games.
backlash13 wrote: How are people finding Daemon engines backed up by Heralds or Daemon Princes?
I've been tempted to run two Gatling forgefiends with the changeling with flickering flames sandwiched between them.
Also, do you guys find that you need a re-roll 1's babysitter with daemon engines? As the Daemonforge strategum only affects one of them.
I've not used any daemon engines myself, however Azuza001 has been having great success with a Defiler backed up by the Flickering Flames power.
My only issue with them, is that i generally want more "thousand sons" and psyker units in my lists, so i often run out of spare points for one of them :/
Azuza001 wrote: Great write up! Thanks for the insite. Sounds like game 1 you just got bad rolls. :(
Yeah it was definitely an out lying game, but, it happens from time to time.
Not sure it would have had much impact on the game though if Ahriman had survived or the terminators killed the scouts first round. After Magnus died, i didn't really have the ability to take on everything he had on the table :(
Nice write up, really interesting to read.
All in all your TS army seemingly did quite well. Although you wrote that you didn't feel like competing with the toptables lists, you never fought the lists your composition was designed for, so I guess it evens out.
The Contemptors are cool models, so is Magnus. I only heared good things about a 20-30 Tzangoors screen with blades, when a Shaman gets mixed in. Eventhough I don't really like the Tzeentch models, especially when a list has 9+ Enlightened.
The Best TS list of the event was just a demon soup list, I wouldn't even touch this mess nor call it anywhere near a TS list. I would prefer a pure TS list anytime, adds much more flava.
Maybe keep the Dreads in case you fight a more 'Jetbikey' list and just drop Magnus and add a Tzaangor screen + Shaman for a couple of games. Just a little change step by step and maybe you'll discover a suited alternative if you're still not satisfied with the dreads.
I mean your list didn't fail completely.
The word was spread that Termis are actually not topnotch in this edition, but their models are too cool and scarabs are clearly some of the better termi-options out there.
I think it was pretty ballsy to bring Magnus to an event, bc he's just a fire magnet and doesn't endure as much like Morty fe. .
Anyways, keep up the sweet reports.
Thanks!
I agree, a step by step approach is probably the wisest move. Definitely going to be taking another Thousand Sons list to my next event in July. I'm like you, i don't really enjoy the idea of spamming Tzaangor units, but, i'm starting to feel like i just need to bite the bullet and run with them. A couple of the lists at the GT ran 3 squads of Enlightened. Just not my cup of tea and certain doesn't feel like "traditional Thousand Sons". The top ranked pure Thousand Sons list ran 27 of them
Spoiler:
Battalion
Ahirman on disc
2x Daemon Prince with Wings (one with DMC)
1x 30 Tzaangors
2x 10 Cultists
Super Heavy
Magnus
Outrider
Daemon Prince with Wings
1x Shaman
3x 9 Enlightened with Bows
It's a strong list and placed 42nd - with 4 wins and 1 loss, getting 71 points.
I've also been considering a Daemons battalion with something like The Changling, Hearld on the Chariot (can't remember the new name), and 3 squads of horrors for screening/back field camping. It's meant to be for "cheap" CP but still rocks in at several hundred points. Thousand Sons biggest issue imo is the cost of their HQs. Cheapest comes in at 104 points, and that's just a standard Sorcerer who only offers 2 casts and 1 deny.
First step is definitely dropping Magnus, but 100% going to try running a squad of 9 Scarab Occult. I really liked dropping them in with the DMC turn 1 and i think a bigger squad will offer more in regards to just removing models and serving as a massive distraction. They are INCREDIBLY slow though, so positioning is everything.
So I guess since GW thought Deepstriking was too powerful they decided to allow HQ troupes who can move 60 inches (I exaggerate) and charge with 5 attacks - shining spears also still get in turn 1 etc. - so in lieu of this - are rubrics still worth it? I was considering going rubrics in the webway but they are quite pricy and aside from hiding them in a rhino all game I can't see them making their value back.
I have most of my TSons army ready to go so I think I'm stuck getting the rubrics anyway - how have people been fielding rubrics for maximum effect, are you making back the value?
orkswubwub wrote: how have people been fielding rubrics for maximum effect
Leave them at home.
Basically, TS Codex should be renamed as: "Codex: Ahriman and flying goats".
While it is generally true, i'd change the name to "Ahriman and his 3 Flying Princes".
Joking aside, i think Rubrics can still have a place. A plan i have for next time is taking a single, 9 man (gotta go "fluffy" 9's) squad and drop them in the webway. Turn 2 they essential jump out and sit on a midfield objective.
Yes, they are expensive, but, ap -2 bolters are extremely good, especially when you throw in VotLW if needed. They are also more survivable than most people give them credit for - often having a 2+ save outside of cover. At worst they have a 5++ save, which can also turn into a 4++ in a lot of cases.
Rhinos are also pretty handy. Double combi bolters then using the Infernal Bolts stratagem on them (sure 2CP, but, with 9CP and a mini CP farm, i didn't feel like i was too pushed for CP) you suddenly get -2ap on its bolters as well.
So I guess it is a sunk/lost cause - I agree that -2 AP is attractive and the ability to VOTLW and cast is strong value but at the end with only 1 wound it seems inevitably they will pop and most armies have ways of popping marines easily.
If we were to try to make it work though - better for multiple small man squads (harder to charge, more casts, easier to fit in cover) or would you use a bigger squad (put -1 to hit on, VOTLW, webway for protection, come out of the webway and really try to melt a unit)...
orkswubwub wrote: So I guess it is a sunk/lost cause - I agree that -2 AP is attractive and the ability to VOTLW and cast is strong value but at the end with only 1 wound it seems inevitably they will pop and most armies have ways of popping marines easily.
If we were to try to make it work though - better for multiple small man squads (harder to charge, more casts, easier to fit in cover) or would you use a bigger squad (put -1 to hit on, VOTLW, webway for protection, come out of the webway and really try to melt a unit)...
Use the ones from the CSM codex in units of 5 with a soulreaper cannon each. That clocks in to 123 pts per unit and essentially gives you a 5 wound sorcerer with some badass shooting, albeit a slow moving one.
Additionally you could use units of 5 with 4 warpflamers in a rhino. But that clocks in to stupid numbers of points, and at that point why wouldn't you just get some points to summon flamers?
backlash13 wrote: How are people finding Daemon engines backed up by Heralds or Daemon Princes?
I've been tempted to run two Gatling forgefiends with the changeling with flickering flames sandwiched between them.
Also, do you guys find that you need a re-roll 1's babysitter with daemon engines? As the Daemonforge strategum only affects one of them.
I've not used any daemon engines myself, however Azuza001 has been having great success with a Defiler backed up by the Flickering Flames power.
My only issue with them, is that i generally want more "thousand sons" and psyker units in my lists, so i often run out of spare points for one of them :/
Yep, massive success. Favorite setup for heavy support (when I can afford to deploy it) is 2 defilers and a vortex beast. Defilers get twin laz and scourge. Flicker one and use deamonforge on it, prescience the other and keep it near reroll 1's. They can put the hurt on anything. Then summon in a changecaster (cause it's easy to do) and maybe some pink horrors if I roll well because suddenly having 20 flickering flames pinks and a changecaster there when your opponent thinks there is no screen can work incredibly well. Rest of my points go into 19 tzaangors, hq's, and as many rubrics as I can get. People don't like facing small squads of 5 rubrics when there is a squad of 20 in ds waiting to drop in and slaughter something with vets of the long war.
Defiler w/ twin laz and scourge
Mutalith vortex beast
Rhino w/ 2 combi bolters
Rhino w/ 2 combi bolters
Patrol
Changecaster
20 pink horrors
His list (as best as I can remember)
Spoiler:
Archon of black heart w/ blaster
3 ravagers w/ 3 desentigrators
3 raiders w/ 3 desentigrators
2 archons w/ blasters of cabal that gives additional 6" to range
3 squads of 10 warriors, each with 1 dark lance and 2 blasters
1 squad of 10 warriors plain
1 sucubus
4 squads of 3 bikes, each with a single blaster and the mortal wound when charging in them.
I won't go into great detail over everything but it was a damn close game, I lost 47-52 in the final round.
All I had left was my defiler and a single rubric. He had 2 ravagers, one with 3 wounds left, and 3 archons, each with a wound gone.
It was brutal. But what I found was I was able to hold my own. I made a tactical mistake t1 that saw one rhino get surrounded by all the bikes and then blow up killing the 2 5-man rubric teams and that hurt a lot.
But vs dark elder once I weathered the initial blitz on my lines I found the warriors themselves didn't pose much of a threat. The archons with their blasters also were not a huge threat, killing a single pink horror or a rubric a turn isn't a big deal and the defiler was able to hide in the back almost all game making their range limited to not optimal targets. The vortex beast did a fair job, I kept glamor of tzeentch on it as long as I could and it lasted until the 5th round. It managed to kill little but it buffed the pinks into a combat squad one turn (rolled to see what would happen) which was nice, it killed some warriors and a raider in cc, and it put out a fair number of mortal wounds, every little bit helps.
I need to find some blue horrors and brimstone horrors, had I had points left over for splitting then they would have been an incredibly hard to remove bunch from the center.
But yeah, if we can hold our own vs dark elder and their crazy stuff, I think we are good.
That's a nice list you got, I like the models you used....nice variation. Good to see it held up quite well.
I wanted to ask you all on an advise for a beginner's 1000 Pt. list, to get a solid core for reasonable play and further expansion. I built one up of the models I like:
I could drop the Shaman for +10 Tzaangors or Ahriman, if he's not worth using. I was thinking a DP + Ahriman was a bit overkill at 1000 Pts. I use the Ahriman model for the exalted Sorcerer though.
I woukd probably use the Dark matter crystal on the Termis....or the Tzaanzgors....but it's just a blueprint.
I like your list, at 1000 pts you have a very effective setup. Personally I would drop the shaman and get arhiman over the exalted sorcerer. That would leave you 75 pts to play with, which I would use to fill out the cultists. 10 cultists won't do much, but 27 can be a big blob to move. Or grab a rhino for the rubrics. Then put dark matter onto the dp, make him warlord with eitherstride, move him up the field t1 but keep him in 12" of the tzaangors. Use the crystal to move tzaangors up into charge range. Remember the tzaangors can move then be dark matter crystaled up further as well. Warptime the dp into charge range. Assault. T2 drop the scarab occult in to support them as well as drop the rubrics out of the rhino or deep strike them for a cp as well. That's an incredibly fast and effective force at 1k. 10 cultists hang out on an objective and screen for arhiman. T2 you can warp time him up as well, if he doesn't know warp time swap the power in using the familiar.
Thanks for your input, mate. I initially wanted the 10 Cultists just for screening /obejctive-sitting, so I would probably change the Shaman into a Rhino (which I already planned to get for expansion).
If I drop the Shaman for Ahriman I could also add +10 Tzangoors for 70 pts. instead of additional cultists.
If it works out as you suggest, a T1 29 Tzaangor charge would be nothing to laugh at.
It's not, it's pretty sweet. The big thing is 29 charging in won't get them all in. That ends up leaving guys out as wounds. I find I normally get 10-12 tzaangors in on that first charge. The rubrics in the rhino is a great combo to get them into position. That's what I would probably do.
backlash13 wrote: How are people finding Daemon engines backed up by Heralds or Daemon Princes?
I've been tempted to run two Gatling forgefiends with the changeling with flickering flames sandwiched between them.
Also, do you guys find that you need a re-roll 1's babysitter with daemon engines? As the Daemonforge strategum only affects one of them.
I've not used any daemon engines myself, however Azuza001 has been having great success with a Defiler backed up by the Flickering Flames power.
My only issue with them, is that i generally want more "thousand sons" and psyker units in my lists, so i often run out of spare points for one of them :/
Azuza001 wrote: Great write up! Thanks for the insite. Sounds like game 1 you just got bad rolls. :(
Yeah it was definitely an out lying game, but, it happens from time to time.
Not sure it would have had much impact on the game though if Ahriman had survived or the terminators killed the scouts first round. After Magnus died, i didn't really have the ability to take on everything he had on the table :(
Nice write up, really interesting to read.
All in all your TS army seemingly did quite well. Although you wrote that you didn't feel like competing with the toptables lists, you never fought the lists your composition was designed for, so I guess it evens out.
The Contemptors are cool models, so is Magnus. I only heared good things about a 20-30 Tzangoors screen with blades, when a Shaman gets mixed in. Eventhough I don't really like the Tzeentch models, especially when a list has 9+ Enlightened.
The Best TS list of the event was just a demon soup list, I wouldn't even touch this mess nor call it anywhere near a TS list. I would prefer a pure TS list anytime, adds much more flava.
Maybe keep the Dreads in case you fight a more 'Jetbikey' list and just drop Magnus and add a Tzaangor screen + Shaman for a couple of games. Just a little change step by step and maybe you'll discover a suited alternative if you're still not satisfied with the dreads.
I mean your list didn't fail completely.
The word was spread that Termis are actually not topnotch in this edition, but their models are too cool and scarabs are clearly some of the better termi-options out there.
I think it was pretty ballsy to bring Magnus to an event, bc he's just a fire magnet and doesn't endure as much like Morty fe. .
Anyways, keep up the sweet reports.
Thanks!
I agree, a step by step approach is probably the wisest move. Definitely going to be taking another Thousand Sons list to my next event in July. I'm like you, i don't really enjoy the idea of spamming Tzaangor units, but, i'm starting to feel like i just need to bite the bullet and run with them. A couple of the lists at the GT ran 3 squads of Enlightened. Just not my cup of tea and certain doesn't feel like "traditional Thousand Sons". The top ranked pure Thousand Sons list ran 27 of them
Spoiler:
Battalion
Ahirman on disc
2x Daemon Prince with Wings (one with DMC)
1x 30 Tzaangors
2x 10 Cultists
Super Heavy
Magnus
Outrider
Daemon Prince with Wings
1x Shaman
3x 9 Enlightened with Bows
It's a strong list and placed 42nd - with 4 wins and 1 loss, getting 71 points.
I've also been considering a Daemons battalion with something like The Changling, Hearld on the Chariot (can't remember the new name), and 3 squads of horrors for screening/back field camping. It's meant to be for "cheap" CP but still rocks in at several hundred points. Thousand Sons biggest issue imo is the cost of their HQs. Cheapest comes in at 104 points, and that's just a standard Sorcerer who only offers 2 casts and 1 deny.
First step is definitely dropping Magnus, but 100% going to try running a squad of 9 Scarab Occult. I really liked dropping them in with the DMC turn 1 and i think a bigger squad will offer more in regards to just removing models and serving as a massive distraction. They are INCREDIBLY slow though, so positioning is everything.
i played this last sunday in a 30 men tournament got a 2nd place
Magnus the Red [23 PL, 445pts]: Glamour of Tzeentch, Warptime, Weaver of Fates
++ Total: [112 PL, 1994pts] ++
the list is strong in particular, of course, if you get 1st turn, you might afford to lost Magnus, btw im not sure if in this meta, Magnus is the best choice, most armies shoot at 24" but always have some heavy weapons in the backfield , in average tables you cant easily hide Magnus, if you get a "bad" turn Magnus melts, perhaps i should switch it for couple of flying Dp's in a supreme command, just in that case my drones and enlighted are less durable cause they eat ton of fire, enlighted are cheap fast and strong, lot of shots,just bit fragile.
I'm personally not that keen on adding in nurgle daemons, but it can certainly be effective!
How are you finding the Enlightened? I keep thinking about using some, but i'm not 100% on them. I'd be investing 1 exalted sorcerer, prescience and a shaman into making them auto wound on 4+ but, i dunno how worth it is.
I really like the 9 Scarab Occult - especially with a turn 1 DMC jump, it is scary and effecitve - but it means the 18 Tzaangors is in the webway or running. I'm just not sure whether dropping Magnus for them is the right choice.
I love Magnus, it's just keeping him alive is such a big problem sometimes.
enlighted for their cost are pretty fine, you cant expect they survive if focused that's why i play Nurgle, if you decide to kill 18+ enlighted, in the meanwhile you get massive board control, make enlighted autowound at 4+ usually is overkill, then depend what kind of opponent ur facing
Magnus is a 50/50, in a 3 matches tournament you can expect to lost him 1-2 times but if he survived usually is gg, and the right moment you find an average shooting army usually it is a real killer, not lot of lists can handle 52 bearers 7-8 drones and Magnus.That's why i still keep Magnus in list
I m thiking about play less bearers and more nurglins like 9+9+4 nurglings bases, and bilepiper. 120+ wounds with FNP
blackmage wrote: enlighted for their cost are pretty fine, you cant expect they survive if focused that's why i play Nurgle, if you decide to kill 18+ enlighted, in the meanwhile you get massive board control, make enlighted autowound at 4+ usually is overkill, then depend what kind of opponent ur facing
Magnus is a 50/50, in a 3 matches tournament you can expect to lost him 1-2 times but if he survived usually is gg, and the right moment you find an average shooting army usually it is a real killer, not lot of lists can handle 52 bearers 7-8 drones and Magnus.That's why i still keep Magnus in list
I m thiking about play less bearers and more nurglins like 9+9+4 nurglings bases, and bilepiper. 120+ wounds with FNP
Are bows clearly the best choice for enlightened? I find in TSons maybe being able to tie some units up in melee you can "trade up" in value (for example even a pred clocks in 200 points). THey also have fly which encourages character sniping. I've used the bows and found them generally underwhelming.
I played the other day with a unit of 9 spears and 2x9 bows.
Considering the amount of attacks normal enlightened get on their disks and the fact the buff to auto wound works on them anyway I found the spears to be underwhelming. I'll likely go all bow in the future.
Sneggy wrote: I played the other day with a unit of 9 spears and 2x9 bows.
Considering the amount of attacks normal enlightened get on their disks and the fact the buff to auto wound works on them anyway I found the spears to be underwhelming. I'll likely go all bow in the future.
if you play so many enlighted might be worth play 18 with bow and 9 with spears, fact is they deliver same damage with bows and spears so no real reason to use spears beside tie up something in CaC and deliver some extra damage.
Sadly they're just smaller old scale und hardly dynamic. I probably could see this from the pictures, but I didnt know it would be so disappointing when I see them in person in front of me. They feel outdated after I painted up some deathguard models.
I agree the poses could have been a bit better I think the sculptors took the “walking golem” idea a bit too far.
Having said that there are tons of 3rd party bits if you want to add your own personal flavor. I personally love maxminis heads and used those.
The biggest problem with making Tsons is their uniqueness doesn’t come from visual things. Nurgle is deformed and diseased, slaanesh is tentacly, Khorne is stark raving mad and covered in blood. Tsons are walking suits of armor. Personally instead of tzaangors and stuff I would have been happier with some more thousand sons unique units. Maybe a tsons unique demon engine or a dreadnought.
I’m sure we will get those in the pipeline eventually.
Honestly I'm not so keen about using 3rd party stuff. I still like TS and the models aren't old by any means- but the new scale of Primaris and DG marines makes them feel outdated to start as an army.
The eventual new Marine/csm -release will most probably feature the new marinescale, too.
Personally I’m ok with the scale. They’re regular marines who got turned into dust. They’re not Primaris and they’re not swollen with viruses like death guard.
I know this is the TS thread and I don't want to dampen the mood. That's why I won't stretch the subject out.
It's just agonizing, the TS fluff is just glorious and the model-style is sweet and flashy. It just doesn't feel so good to put huge amounts of time and cash into an army whose sculptures feel to be obsolete in 2 years.
It's not for the fluff of scale, it's because I strongly feel that GW won't go back to the old scale in all the upcoming releases and therefor the army will feel quickly outdated. Especially because it uses the old marine models as base.
New rubrics yes. Old rubrics no. I purchased 2 new boxes recently, one the new set the other a "new" set of the old pewter/ plastic combination. There is quite a noticeable size difference.
I have become a firm believer that a tson list backed by a small noise marine detachment is damn effective.
20 rubrics or 10 scarab occult can drop in and put out 40 shots at 12" onto a tank, hitting on 3's, wounding on 4's with veterans of the long war vs anything t7 or lower, at ap-2 for serious damage.
They also blast heavy infantry easy. The noise marines do massive anti infantry damage output.
(sorry, I don't know why Dakka turned the image around, I don't get it to work properly.)
I'm not a propainter by all means, but I put effort into it, I want my army to look good.
If I already had a TS army painted and paid, I also wouldn't bother that much about the new scale.
It is rather about the decision to build up a new army from scratch and put several hundreds of hours and work into it, while it's models are feeling outdated. It's a shame, bc I like the fluff really. The DG unfortunately isn't very fluffright and I think the background is a huge factor of enjoyment for me.
It's a difficult one for them. In regards to fluff etc, i'd expect the Death Guard marines to be bigger and bulkier than any other marine out there. This was generally the case before the HH, and certainly is the case after being bloated and mutated by Nurgle.
In terms of feeling out dated, i suppose in a way they do, but they also have a fantastic look to them still and have plenty of detail on them. It is just different detail styling. Thousand Sons in my mind are a lot more "cleaner" and crisper, whereas the Death Guard feel a bit more realistic in a way.
As for scale, the Rubric marines are similar scale to the Primaris, which is pretty decent.
Anyhow, I decided to stick with the TS army, since I already ordered so much stuff and I have the prospect of a reasonably strong 1000 pt. force, paintable in a reasonable amount of time....which is nice, because I finally want to go play!
And after DG, Emperors Children and Alpha Legion the TS rubrics probably will get some love, too. I mean Ahriman/ Magnus / Sorcerers already look nice and up to date, just the rubrics need some love.
Furthermore I really, really like the idea of being a witch-sorcerer hunting for arcane relics and knowledge throughout space with a force of mindless automata beneath me...sweet. And I really want to read the fluff.
I nonetheless have 2 questions for the diligent TS brothers:
1.) How did you paint your army without going mad, especially the goldtrim? I am actually doubting the Gw method of spraying with gold and painting the blue is the quickest one, but I am afraid of trying the other way around.
2.) Especially for Azuza, who already helped a lot with my list:
One thing to be aware of with the Pink Horrors, is that you will lose your Thousand Sons bonuses, as they do not have the Thousand Sons keyword and will mean your list becomes "Tzeetch" or "Chaos" instead of "Thousand Sons".
Depends how much you'll be valuing the +6" range on powers and the obsec.
If you want to go for a bit of fun at 1k points, you could run 10 cultists, a Rhino for the Rubrics and then 70 points of something else (could even be 2 Spawn! )
As for painting - i sprayed mine red first then did the gold trim after. It didn't take much work to go round all the details with gold afterwards. Just a pain if you get the gold on the main plate areas. I did use an airbrush for my main colour though, so, i couldn't really do it the other way around.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, just seen the reveal for the new Big Knights, and i can safely say that my fears of having to put Magnus back on the shelf were a bit premature. With the missiles only being 1 shot per turn, the chances of Magnus being 1 shot by a single Knight is now pretty slim - and if they are taking 2 Knights to do the job, then that is 1300+ points of their army diverted for a turn. After that, it all depends on what your 1555 points are capable of.
Not used them myself, but, toyed with the idea. They can certainly put out the wounds (especially with a Shaman and prescience) but, if they get targeted, they die pretty easily.
That said, 153 points for 9 of them is pretty decent in terms of costing.
i was running 6+6+6 with shaman and ahriman, but the army i faced lacked any serious fire power so cant get the real deal with them, i could fly around ,stay at 24" inches and put out 36 2+ shoots each turn autowounding at 4+ thanks to prescience, im afraid just one big unit suffer too much battle shock, i prefer lost 6 models and still have 12 on the table than lost 5-6 then the rest with a bad morale check.
JohnnyRotten wrote: Anyhow, I decided to stick with the TS army, since I already ordered so much stuff and I have the prospect of a reasonably strong 1000 pt. force, paintable in a reasonable amount of time....which is nice, because I finally want to go play!
And after DG, Emperors Children and Alpha Legion the TS rubrics probably will get some love, too. I mean Ahriman/ Magnus / Sorcerers already look nice and up to date, just the rubrics need some love.
Furthermore I really, really like the idea of being a witch-sorcerer hunting for arcane relics and knowledge throughout space with a force of mindless automata beneath me...sweet. And I really want to read the fluff.
I nonetheless have 2 questions for the diligent TS brothers:
1.) How did you paint your army without going mad, especially the goldtrim? I am actually doubting the Gw method of spraying with gold and painting the blue is the quickest one, but I am afraid of trying the other way around.
2.) Especially for Azuza, who already helped a lot with my list:
+ 20 Tzaangors with blades
+ Chaos Rhino (for the marines)
but I was also thinking of taking
+ 30 Pink Horrors
Leaves me both at 1000 points.
I am not sure if the Horrors could complement a Rhino, but I feel that 60 shots and 4++ blob would be quite an alternative.
The horrors are great but losing obspec and 6" isn't. If you want horrors I suggest either summoning them (not the best) or running a patrol detachment of deamons with a changecaster and the pinks. Changecasters give +1 str to the pinks then can cast flickering flames on them to give them a 3 to wound t4 targets and a 4 to wound t5-7 targets. That will melt pretty much anything. Use the deamon strat to give the pinks a 3++ save if something targets them and a few left over points for splitting and you can have an incredible backup force for your tsons.
But at 1000 pts with what you already have I wouldn't do that. You need 3 troop choices for those sweeeet command points. You have 1 so far. If you get 20 tzaangors and set them in groups of 10 that would work. Cultists can do wonders as well, a box of tzeentch arcanites are cheap and can make cultists that fit the tson look with little conversion work. But if you take cultists and tzaangors you want decent sizes. A single squad of 15-20 tzaangors works great, I don't ever take more than 1 squad because I want to use my dark matter crystal to move them up and assault turn 1. Cultists unless you just want a small 10 man squad for objective sitting or are looking to simply fill out that 3 troop requirement I say take at least 20 in a squad. With what you have I would spend the money on the tzaangors.
As for painting I cheated. I bought cheap basic aluminum silver spray from the local store and blasted my entire line of models all at once. Then once dry I took Drakenh of Nightshade which is a blue shade paint of gw's and just coated my men with them. Using a brush it took awhile, like 3 to 6 coats, to get a deep metallic blue look across the entire line of guys. Then I did gold trim, painted the guns leadbelcher, and used a good dose of Agrellan Earth on their bases and done. Recently I got an airbrush, just a cheap used setup, single action so many for area coverage not detail work and did a second set of models. I sprayed them the silver then put the nightshade in the airbrush and blasted them when they had dried for about a half hour after the silver, blue came out perfect in one coat instead of the 3 to 6 I needed before. Timesaver for sure.
blackmage wrote: hello Ts players, anyone got some feedbacks about enlightened with bows? how much do you play? do they make what you expected? thx
In games of >1300 pts, I usually run 6-9 of them. I like them very much. althouth for me , they are no game winners. In my experience, when fielding TS you gotta have a Plan for each unit (Tzeentch approves) to get good results. One exception somewhat beeing Spawns and Enlightened with Bows. I mostly let them "freelance". Quickly zipping where they are needed and reacting to my opponent. Need to put pressure on something big? presience them and go for it. if not - just go hog an objective for a round and let loose some shots if possible or harass that unit of multiwound TEQ. They are cheap enough that you dont HAVE to absolutely take down something big with them, but fast and versatile enough, that you can get some board control by speed from them imo.
tl:dr: not a game changer, but always nice to add to pretty much ANY army. I usually run 6+3, unless I want to give them a specific (kill)task, then I put a shaman next to them and run a blob of 9.
Kdash wrote: So, if the new Knight rumours turn out to be true, i think i'll be dropping Magnus from most of my event lists.
4, 1 shot, missiles that ignore invuln saves are just going to make killing him even easier than it is now :(
They are on 600 point+ models that can only fire one a turn, so I wouldn't worry about it. In fact Magnus is a great counter to Knight lists, since he can first turn charge, death hex and reliably take 15+ wounds a turn off a knight.
i doubt a pure Ik list can take over a list like Ts, Magnus can kill 1 knight each turn, the mortal wound spam isn't healty if you dont hav some chaffs and 2-3 dp's can seriously threath Ik too.
The horrors are great but losing obspec and 6" isn't. If you want horrors I suggest either summoning them (not the best) or running a patrol detachment of deamons with a changecaster and the pinks. Changecasters give +1 str to the pinks then can cast flickering flames on them to give them a 3 to wound t4 targets and a 4 to wound t5-7 targets. That will melt pretty much anything. Use the deamon strat to give the pinks a 3++ save if something targets them and a few left over points for splitting and you can have an incredible backup force for your tsons.
But at 1000 pts with what you already have I wouldn't do that. You need 3 troop choices for those sweeeet command points. You have 1 so far. If you get 20 tzaangors and set them in groups of 10 that would work. Cultists can do wonders as well, a box of tzeentch arcanites are cheap and can make cultists that fit the tson look with little conversion work. But if you take cultists and tzaangors you want decent sizes. A single squad of 15-20 tzaangors works great, I don't ever take more than 1 squad because I want to use my dark matter crystal to move them up and assault turn 1. Cultists unless you just want a small 10 man squad for objective sitting or are looking to simply fill out that 3 troop requirement I say take at least 20 in a squad. With what you have I would spend the money on the tzaangors.
As for painting I cheated. I bought cheap basic aluminum silver spray from the local store and blasted my entire line of models all at once. Then once dry I took Drakenh of Nightshade which is a blue shade paint of gw's and just coated my men with them. Using a brush it took awhile, like 3 to 6 coats, to get a deep metallic blue look across the entire line of guys. Then I did gold trim, painted the guns leadbelcher, and used a good dose of Agrellan Earth on their bases and done. Recently I got an airbrush, just a cheap used setup, single action so many for area coverage not detail work and did a second set of models. I sprayed them the silver then put the nightshade in the airbrush and blasted them when they had dried for about a half hour after the silver, blue came out perfect in one coat instead of the 3 to 6 I needed before. Timesaver for sure.
You're right,I totally forgot about the missing CP's. I will keep the 20 Tzaangor group for the crystal purposes and add a 10x cultist unit. I accidentally included one Terminator too much, so dropping him frees up the needed 40 pts. .
Goal is set then, I guess I'll need a few weeks to paint it all up.
Is it actually worth to drop the Soulreaper cannon on both the marines and the Terminators and get the Rhino a Havoc launcher instead? I might think my list does not have enough high str. weaponary against, let's say, two Bloat Drones which are not uncommon at 1000 pts.
blackmage wrote: i doubt a pure Ik list can take over a list like Ts, Magnus can kill 1 knight each turn, the mortal wound spam isn't healty if you dont hav some chaffs and 2-3 dp's can seriously threath Ik too.
I think it 100% depends on the Knight list. 1 Castellan, 2 Knights with Gatling and 3 Autocannon Armigers (or even 2 Castellan and 6 Armigers) are going to do a lot of work. Mortal wound spam is great, but, it'll only be destroying 1 or 2 Armigers turn 1 - IF the TS go first. If the Knights go first, Magnus is very likely to be dead. Sure, Magnus could nearly 1 shot a full wound Knight in combat, but, if he does get into combat nothing else probably will due to needing to use Warptime. This unfortunately then all but guarantees he'll die next turn though.
Princes are nice, but are going to struggle vs Knights. Wounding on 5s (4's with diabolic strength) isn't going to cut it - and that's if you make it into combat. You'd have to start looking at Lascannon Contemptors, Helbrutes or Predators for damage output - especially as you won't be able to lock them in combat to prevent them from firing.
It'll be over by turn 3, either way. Either you'd have killed 2-3 Knights via smites etc, or the Knights would have removed the big threats and practically become unkillable for the rest of your army.
Alternatively, you're going to have to start looking at hordes of Cultists and/or Tzaangors to screen your characters for several turns while you attempt to smite your way to victory. But, even then, you're putting yourself on a massive timer.
Best option though, is probably just going with lots of units and doing everything possible to win the mission.
The current standard of 3 Princes, Ahriman and often, Magnus, just isn't going to give you enough output, bodies or remaining points to give you the control you'd need. From experience, as soon as Magnus and just 1 Prince dies, you're damage output drops significantly and often the other 849 points of your list just can't do the damage to fill the gap, due to it mainly being Tzaangor spam, Cultists and additional Sorcerers to get CP.
My current list version for July is shaping up to contain 3 Princes, Ahriman, 2 Exalted Sorcerers and 3 Shamans - alongside 108 screening wounds. I could reasonably say i could table a full Knight list in turn 4 or 5 with it, but it'd still be close, due to 1 Castellan getting max shots on everything is probably killing 30 of my 81 screening models a turn (as i'm not likely to be getting saves/making them) Terrain would be key.. But, my LGT list wouldn't come close, especially if it didn't get 1st turn.
Now, if we consider 2 Castellans, an Armiger and 500 points of screening Guard, i don't think i'd come close to tabling them. So much of our power comes from smite, at the expensive of high damage fire power and weight of fire power. When that power can't get to the right targets, it seriously hurts us. Honestly, at this point i think we'd simply be relying on the Knights getting low shot rolls, and then getting average/less than average hits and wounds through while we ignore them and hope to win the game elsewhere.
The horrors are great but losing obspec and 6" isn't. If you want horrors I suggest either summoning them (not the best) or running a patrol detachment of deamons with a changecaster and the pinks. Changecasters give +1 str to the pinks then can cast flickering flames on them to give them a 3 to wound t4 targets and a 4 to wound t5-7 targets. That will melt pretty much anything. Use the deamon strat to give the pinks a 3++ save if something targets them and a few left over points for splitting and you can have an incredible backup force for your tsons.
But at 1000 pts with what you already have I wouldn't do that. You need 3 troop choices for those sweeeet command points. You have 1 so far. If you get 20 tzaangors and set them in groups of 10 that would work. Cultists can do wonders as well, a box of tzeentch arcanites are cheap and can make cultists that fit the tson look with little conversion work. But if you take cultists and tzaangors you want decent sizes. A single squad of 15-20 tzaangors works great, I don't ever take more than 1 squad because I want to use my dark matter crystal to move them up and assault turn 1. Cultists unless you just want a small 10 man squad for objective sitting or are looking to simply fill out that 3 troop requirement I say take at least 20 in a squad. With what you have I would spend the money on the tzaangors.
As for painting I cheated. I bought cheap basic aluminum silver spray from the local store and blasted my entire line of models all at once. Then once dry I took Drakenh of Nightshade which is a blue shade paint of gw's and just coated my men with them. Using a brush it took awhile, like 3 to 6 coats, to get a deep metallic blue look across the entire line of guys. Then I did gold trim, painted the guns leadbelcher, and used a good dose of Agrellan Earth on their bases and done. Recently I got an airbrush, just a cheap used setup, single action so many for area coverage not detail work and did a second set of models. I sprayed them the silver then put the nightshade in the airbrush and blasted them when they had dried for about a half hour after the silver, blue came out perfect in one coat instead of the 3 to 6 I needed before. Timesaver for sure.
You're right,I totally forgot about the missing CP's. I will keep the 20 Tzaangor group for the crystal purposes and add a 10x cultist unit. I accidentally included one Terminator too much, so dropping him frees up the needed 40 pts. .
Goal is set then, I guess I'll need a few weeks to paint it all up.
Is it actually worth to drop the Soulreaper cannon on both the marines and the Terminators and get the Rhino a Havoc launcher instead? I might think my list does not have enough high str. weaponary against, let's say, two Bloat Drones which are not uncommon at 1000 pts.
The Rhino will help, and i don't think you'll miss the Soulreapers that much imo. The terminators deep striking in can still happily shoot at the bloat drones with 5 combi-bolters and the Veterans of the Long War stratagem to wound on 4s. They are a pain to get rid of, but, your list can still focus them down. It just depends on whether or not you think the Rhino will just die 1st turn every game at 1000 points.
Personally I don't have any feelings one way or the other on havoc missile launchers. They are random, they have ok strength, but they are cheap.
As for soul reapers cannons i always try to keep my rubrics squads at 10 to get them, they are nice. 4 str 5 ap-2 shots on 3's to hit, what's not to love?
I agree with kdash on the terminators, them deep striking in and unloading with vets of the long war will kill those drones, or at least make them regret their life choices.
Also if your taking the deamon prince with eatherstride and wings you could simply charge in and hit those drones before they get a chance to do much. A single drone will get 2 or 3 wounds on you in overwatch on average and you will put out potentially 8 str 9 ap-2 attacks, all should hit, 6 should wound, with potentially dropping that drone down to 2 wounds before it hits back doing jack vs you. Since they both cost roughly the same it's a good matchup for you.
Or just sit back and blast away with smite. Smite will hurt them easy. Then clean up with the terms / deamon prince.
Point is you have options to deal with drones. It's not the drones I would be worried about (granted you will want to deal with those drones asap), plaugrburst crawlers is what I would worry about. Those things can hide and just unload a decent level of nasty are 8 shots at your rubrics that you won't like.
My current list version for July is shaping up to contain 3 Princes, Ahriman, 2 Exalted Sorcerers and 3 Shamans - alongside 108 screening wounds. I could reasonably say i could table a full Knight list in turn 4 or 5 with it, but it'd still be close, due to 1 Castellan getting max shots on everything is probably killing 30 of my 81 screening models a turn (as i'm not likely to be getting saves/making them) Terrain would be key.. But, my LGT list wouldn't come close, especially if it didn't get 1st turn.
yes close to my actual build, a nurgle battalion for screening and 4 Dpìs+ahriman and two shamans I still highly doubt an Ik can get some success at competitive events, they didn't get the cut in the past when elite armies had a chance, now is pretty hard, you are ok at kill points but with objectives or maelstrom... well....idk
As for soul reapers cannons i always try to keep my rubrics squads at 10 to get them, they are nice. 4 str 5 ap-2 shots on 3's to hit, what's not to love?
As for soul reapers cannons i always try to keep my rubrics squads at 10 to get them, they are nice. 4 str 5 ap-2 shots on 3's to hit, what's not to love?
If you want to go competitive, I would think twice about Magnus. He is going to die early.
Also, any allied IG Battalion will have a field day on your Brimstones -- expect them to kill 2 units per turn (at least) by the mortar fire and subsequent Moral tests.
And the main problem of Tzeench lists (I play them myself, so I know it first-hand) -- it has a criminally low damage output, especially after you lose Magnus. And lose it you will.
I do not like Nurgle models and thematically Nurgle + TS sounds weird. Also i have a lot of Tzeentch and painting Nurgle right now sounds like terrible idea lol
I know that Magnus will die. But backfield, 4++ 6+++ he might survive turn 1 and turn 2 we have Magnus 3++ / 6+++ AND LoC 3++ rushing forward with 20/30 Pinks and DPs.
Does this sound valid?
In my games i do not feel that Rubrics do much other that holding objectives. They rarely kill their points back.
Another idea i have is kicking Magnus and getting 3xExalted Flamers and 5xFlamers in DS. This means turn 1 opponent can shoot only brimstones because all other units are characters.
yes but if you talk about "competitive" that's the way, U think to keep Magnus in the backfield? worst way to use him, he is a beast in CaC and you should look for a CaC as soon as you can, spend 445pts just to shoot some psy power is fool. Believe me a Magnus with a 4++/6+++ will die anyway in 1 turn if focused you have no idea how much firepower some lists like Tau, Ig, De can deliver in a single turn, i like Magnus model im going to buy one but in competitive matches right now he isn't the best choice. If ur idea is to play competitive you must take into account Eldar/Ynnari, Tau, De, Ig at least, those are all armies can toast Magnus in 1 turn, ofc depend by list but im talking in general. Then about nurgle, i played last week against a Ts featuring Magnus he charged 1 single time, then every turn he was forced to fall back and he took lot of wounds and just shoot some psy powers, with 90 plaguebearers and 14 plague drones he had no place where go, so was charged every turn,u dont need to remove it to counteract him, this is what i got with Magnus, i repeat i love the model and his rules are nice, just a bit too fragile at least here in Italy, everything imho of course.
Your main weakness is... troops too weak, i suggest u, if you want remove Magnus to go for 30+30 horrors, you need some screen for your characters and reliable troops for objectives.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: I know that Magnus will die. But backfield, 4++ 6+++ he might survive turn 1 and turn 2 we have Magnus 3++ / 6+++ AND LoC 3++ rushing forward with 20/30 Pinks and DPs.
Does this sound valid?
I've tried it as well. A decent opponent will just concentrate his firepower on Magnus and kill it first. Then he will proceed to other threats. And killing Magnus is not so difficult as it seems. One time Magnus in 3++ died to 3 packs of Obliterators with a mark of Slaanesh (double shooting) and VLOW under a Chaos Lord for re-rolls. Guard or Eldar player will make it even faster and with guaranteed result.
u can play Magnus maybe successfully if you play on decent table, with some Blos terrain then maybe you have a chance, honestly in high competitive matches i leave Magnus on the shelf, an average Ts list investing 445 pts on a single piece means if that piece die early you are in great troubles.
blackmage wrote: u can play Magnus maybe successfully if you play on decent table, with some Blos terrain then maybe you have a chance, honestly in high competitive matches i leave Magnus on the shelf, an average Ts list investing 445 pts on a single piece means if that piece die early you are in great troubles.
Given how big Magnus is on the table, that'd have to be some mighty impressive terrain to block LOS to him.
blackmage wrote: u can play Magnus maybe successfully if you play on decent table, with some Blos terrain then maybe you have a chance, honestly in high competitive matches i leave Magnus on the shelf, an average Ts list investing 445 pts on a single piece means if that piece die early you are in great troubles.
Given how big Magnus is on the table, that'd have to be some mighty impressive terrain to block LOS to him.
London Gt terrain would be enough.
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drakerocket wrote: Was it ever established fully if having a daemon detachment meant he qualifies to use the daemon stratagem for +1 invuln save?
no because only unit with demon faction keyword can use demon stratagem and he has not, FAQ explained it
pure Ts stands no chances in very competitive enviroment, im sorry to say but ur free to make some try, maybe im wrong but anytime i face a pure Ts usually i win easily with my Nurgle+Dg or Nurgle+Ts, he just dont have enough power to keep at bay about 100+ wounds
Usually you only face a TS detachment in forms of Ahriman + DP.
So you better flood the table with fearless cultists. Horrors are also sweet.
For a tournament you need to be tedious. Thinking of former tyrant + tyrant + tyrant + tyrant + 45 mucolid lists etc...
JohnnyRotten wrote: Usually you only face a TS detachment in forms of Ahriman + DP.
So you better flood the table with fearless cultists. Horrors are also sweet.
For a tournament you need to be tedious. Thinking of former tyrant + tyrant + tyrant + tyrant + 45 mucolid lists etc...
indeed, that's how Ts plays in tournaments, a supreme command and sometimes enlightened+shaman and/or a blob of tzaangors.
blackmage wrote: u can play Magnus maybe successfully if you play on decent table, with some Blos terrain then maybe you have a chance, honestly in high competitive matches i leave Magnus on the shelf, an average Ts list investing 445 pts on a single piece means if that piece die early you are in great troubles.
Given how big Magnus is on the table, that'd have to be some mighty impressive terrain to block LOS to him.
London Gt terrain would be enough.
[
Unfortunately, the London GT terrain wasn't big enough, and was setup most commonly in a way which gave plenty of firing arcs around the sides of it.
If the central terrain had been half an inch taller, then it would possibly worked on some deployment maps, but, as it was, the tip of Magnus' wing was always visible
Is it worth it to bring Rubric Marines against Imperial Knights?They seem fairly useless unless taken in a maximum size to benefit from psyker powers and stratagems the most (+1 to wound and hit mostly), or MSU for getting a lot of psykers.
Or is it better to just plain run a cultist screen in front of some anti-tank?
Depends on what else you bring. Rubrics need to be supported by chaff. I’ve found that warptiming a rhino up with 10 warpflamers, popping smoke and putting the -1 to hit spell on it and then using dark matter crystal to transport 20 tzaangors right next to them so they can’t be surrounded works pretty well. At -2 to hit the rhino has a pretty good chance of surviving shooting and if they do decide to target it it will take a ton of firepower to pop firepower that’s not targeting your juicier targets. Which is all you want it to do anyway. It’s better to pick a flank and do this than to charge blindly up the middle though.
Turn 2 they now have 3+d6+5 inches of movement to get within 8 inches. your terminators drop and the rest of your army is there to support them. (I also like to take a unit of demon flamers with a herald and drop them near things as well.
vaklor4 wrote: Is it worth it to bring Rubric Marines against Imperial Knights?They seem fairly useless unless taken in a maximum size to benefit from psyker powers and stratagems the most (+1 to wound and hit mostly), or MSU for getting a lot of psykers.
Or is it better to just plain run a cultist screen in front of some anti-tank?
I mean, if you're looking to tailor against them then yeah, rubrics and tzaangors are going to be mostly deadweight and you just want to bring defilers, laspreds, psykers to buff them and cultists in front.
But if you're taking a TAC list and you wind up vs knights, you can make use of rubrics by targeting the Armiger class knights (wound on a 5, can be boosted to 4 with VOTLW and they have the optimal AP of -2 to hurt them).
I've taken on a knight heavy list before with my tsons/daemon mix (it was 3 big knights and admech screens/techpriests to repair 'em) and I basically fed them my rubrics and tzaangors as a distraction while I kept my Defiler buffed up and inconvenient to hurt. My opponent just assumed one of his knights with the sword would instagib the defiler, and I caught him by surprise with Daemonforge and the S16 dumpsterclaws and took the knight down from like 20 wounds in a single turn. He killed it the next turn but it was basically done at that point. I don't think I managed to kill either of the other two but by the end of the game the all-shooting one was fighting at 5+ bs and the other one was bogged down by Pinks and Screamers (Knights can move through infantry when falling back but not other unit types, so you can charge them with a ring of chaff and put other unit types nearby but not in the combat, so they cant hit them but they can't move through them to get out). I won pretty solidly on objectives.
So, adding some big guns as an "allied" force, "spire guard" renegades?
A single Rouge psyker coven seems ok, 15 wounds with 5++ for 100 points isn't all that bad, and they can do some neat tricks (like supercharging a crucial deny attempt), and it opens the path for some serious firepower with vanguard/spearhead/outrider detachments.
Any opinions on the worth of some heavy guns to bring in?
Basilisks? medusas? sentinals? heavy weapon teams?
Or even, RUSSES?!
Anything sounds valuable for us? anyone has any experience fielding allied renegades?
ArtyomTrityak wrote: How often Gate of Infinity and Doombolt work for you? They're pretty hard to get, does it even make sense to cast them?
If you're running Magnus, then, in my eyes they are 100% take on him. Their ability to do so much damage is incredible.
If you're not running Magnus, then, it's a little more personal choice. Ahriman can still get them off with relative ease, but he might not always be in position to use them.
Doombolt however, i use more as a targetable smite, rather than for it's half movement utility.
u can cast with Magnus or Ahriman they have +2 or +1, dont forget cabalistic focus which give you another +2, i often use with Ahriman or with a Dp with high magister
So with the big stompy character robots stomping all over everything at the moment, I've been working on a way to hard counter them, and I'd like your opinion on its feasibility.
It revolves around
1) A Nightlords Supreme Command detachment, with a Murdersword Chaos Lord and 2 Sorcerers. Expensive but useful group who drop leadership by -3 on turn one (14"move and 6" advance often puts you in 6" of a knight.)
2) Either a LoC heading a horror batallion or a TSDP with the +1 cast WL trait, casting, of course, Treason of Tzeentch!
3) 2 Hellforged Contemptors, both with double Butcher Cannons, provide utility if I'm not facing a list where flipping a character will have such a big impact. -5 debuff to multiple morale tests is significant.
So yeah, pretty simple idea really. Dark matter crystal a 30-tzaangor flerd in for some havoc, hopefully screening my NL characters a little from counterfire. Zoom the bikes up to debuff the knight, buff the birds, smite and death-hex all and sundry, and then lay waste to my enemy with my enemy's best unit.
It's not pure TS, and it's a little niche, but the sheer amount of knights I'm seeing recently is making me consider it for my next local tournament. Thoughts?
If Treason doesn't go off or gets denied this tactic is a flop. Too many points invested into making it work imo. I also don't think this is worth it against a melee knight and anyone with a shooty knight will be deploying further back when they see your list if they weren't going to already.
Unfortunately I can't be overly constructive bc I haven't worked out what the best way to deal with knights is yet, but I don't think this is it. Getting Treason of Tzeentch to go off on a Castellan would be hilarious though
grouchoben wrote: So with the big stompy character robots stomping all over everything at the moment, I've been working on a way to hard counter them, and I'd like your opinion on its feasibility.
It revolves around
1) A Nightlords Supreme Command detachment, with a Murdersword Chaos Lord and 2 Sorcerers. Expensive but useful group who drop leadership by -3 on turn one (14"move and 6" advance often puts you in 6" of a knight.)
2) Either a LoC heading a horror batallion or a TSDP with the +1 cast WL trait, casting, of course, Treason of Tzeentch!
3) 2 Hellforged Contemptors, both with double Butcher Cannons, provide utility if I'm not facing a list where flipping a character will have such a big impact. -5 debuff to multiple morale tests is significant.
So yeah, pretty simple idea really. Dark matter crystal a 30-tzaangor flerd in for some havoc, hopefully screening my NL characters a little from counterfire. Zoom the bikes up to debuff the knight, buff the birds, smite and death-hex all and sundry, and then lay waste to my enemy with my enemy's best unit.
It's not pure TS, and it's a little niche, but the sheer amount of knights I'm seeing recently is making me consider it for my next local tournament. Thoughts?
This is a cool idea but don't forget you can't treason the warlord and the knight will only be a character if it has an heirloom (i think) and likely will ALSO be a walord (they can have multiple) - so very likely this might not work on the regular (?) but might work once in a few games
Thanks for the feedback guys. I agree it's a niche idea, and might not work in practice. I'm taking it for a spin next game, so I'll report back. Here's what I'd say to you so far...
The Exalted court strat doesn't actually make a knight a warlord, it just lets them select a WL trait, and take a relic. If my 3 bikers stop a knight list from taking traits and relics, job done, quite frankly! Likewise if they make a Gallant flee for a turn or two. If they go ahead anyway, their drops will mean I get to see their deployment and set up the nightlords in response. Even if I can't set up within 26" of a knight, the team can still get forward 20" and drop mortal wounds & death hex, and sit behind the 30-tzaangor blob. Turn 2 it's a pretty unavoidable -3 to leadership, barring a lucky shieldbreaker missile.
And I don't really think it's a challenge to get treason off in this setup - with a LoC you're talking a 6; with a WLDP with cabal, you're talking a 5. Both would be after gaze of fate for the reroll. At which point you need to roll higher than a 6 to take control of a knight for a round of shooting and fighting.
grouchoben wrote: Thanks for the feedback guys. I agree it's a niche idea, and might not work in practice. I'm taking it for a spin next game, so I'll report back. Here's what I'd say to you so far...
The Exalted court strat doesn't actually make a knight a warlord, it just lets them select a WL trait, and take a relic. If my 3 bikers stop a knight list from taking traits and relics, job done, quite frankly! Likewise if they make a Gallant flee for a turn or two. If they go ahead anyway, their drops will mean I get to see their deployment and set up the nightlords in response. Even if I can't set up within 26" of a knight, the team can still get forward 20" and drop mortal wounds & death hex, and sit behind the 30-tzaangor blob. Turn 2 it's a pretty unavoidable -3 to leadership, barring a lucky shieldbreaker missile.
And I don't really think it's a challenge to get treason off in this setup - with a LoC you're talking a 6; with a WLDP with cabal, you're talking a 5. Both would be after gaze of fate for the reroll. At which point you need to roll higher than a 6 to take control of a knight for a round of shooting and fighting.
yes but you need a 10+ then with 2d6 to take control of a knight, is not cast the power the problem is pass the D check.
Depends what you want the cultists to do and if it's an ITC game etc.
In ITC running a couple of units at 19 strong gives you a decent, cheap, screen that doesn't hurt you too much on secondaries. If you just want them sitting at the back holding objectives, then you don't really need to go too "big", as they won't really be doing anything but trying to camp in cover and survive.
If you're going for something like 100-200 cultists you might as well just run them as Black Legion with Abbaddon, or Alpha Legion, as, they won't really be doing much for you as Thousand Sons.
Kdash wrote: Depends what you want the cultists to do and if it's an ITC game etc.
In ITC running a couple of units at 19 strong gives you a decent, cheap, screen that doesn't hurt you too much on secondaries. If you just want them sitting at the back holding objectives, then you don't really need to go too "big", as they won't really be doing anything but trying to camp in cover and survive.
If you're going for something like 100-200 cultists you might as well just run them as Black Legion with Abbaddon, or Alpha Legion, as, they won't really be doing much for you as Thousand Sons.
Yea mostly want them to cap objectives while the better units go on killing stuff. Ill try something in the middle and adjust
Thank you!
They do make an excellent distraction carnifexes. I have taken 5 and they get shot at pretty quick because they are pretty squishy but they also are pretty devastating if you get a full squad to hit something head on. And price wise 33 pts a model isnt bad.
I absolutely recommend playing a fun game against another psyker army using CA's 'empyric storms' extra rules. I had a game against some CSM that ran psykers. We both ended up tabled with 3 greater demons fighting it out to see the winner (only just lost). We dialed it up by rolling for 3 at the start of each game, and boy was it chaos, but boy was it fun.
Really recommend using them. A far better game than a normal matched play slugfest.
(Number 63: unreality reigns: any roll of a 6 counts as a 1, and any roll of a 1 counts as a 6. Confusing, does nothing and hilarious.)
If your going to do the rhino tzaangor stuff i would suggest doing 4x10 tzaangors in rhinos and a big blob of 20 tzaangors to dmc up the field. But otherwise its not a bad idea, they are cheap enough to be useful. Not bad.
I find the issue with that tactic is that a rhino is just...Real expensive for what is inside of it. To me, the stuff inside should be double the cost of the rhino, otherwise it just seems like too much of an investment. I've found Rubric Marines to be much better in Rhinos, especially kitted with flamers.
Hey there fellows, I've been reading tactics, and somehow thousand sons seems to struggle against some armies. I'm asking for advise about list building, and tips for what is actually working at the moment. So, heres a sample;
Battalion
- lord of change
- some other hq (maybe fluxmaster)
- 20x pink horrors
- 20x pink horrors
- 20x pink horrors
Battalion
- not sure about HQ, want to go magic heavy here
- rubric marines in rhino
- tzaangor (2x big units in the webway)
- some sort of anti tank support (lasc helbrute or lasc predator)
So, what I'm aiming with this list, deep striking horrors and tzaangor, while rubric marines go for objectives. Definately want to go magic heavy, maybe even squeeze in magnus. Can this really work, or do I have to make a new list?
If your running deamons in support of tsons there are a few things to know.
First, depending on what kind of list you want, tsons and deamons can be stupid good in synergy. Mutalith vortex beasts can do amazing things to deamons making them stupid scary in cc. If you go with the lord of change give it the impossible robe, you want that 3++ save that can get boosted to a 2++ with a stratagem. I like a single big squad of tzaangors on the table already, not ds. That way you can use a dark matter crystal to get them into assault range turn 1. A deamon prince with aetherstride can also get into cc turn 1. That leaves your t2 drops being those pink horrors, which can do a great deal of work. Leave points for splitting and they can sit on objectives throwing out shots like champs.
Rubrics i personally like to run in groups of 10, drop them into a rhino, and run them to wherever you need to support your lines the most. Rubrics dont care about genestealers or noise marines for example.
Finally tson deamon princes are amazing. We have the best ones. Take 3 if you can. Magnus will be a fire magnet. If you dont get t1 he can get easily wiped.
Gl, there are lots of ways to do what your thinking about, the question becomes where do you want to focus.
Hi, I'm considering a Chaos army list that is heavily based on fire and flame weapons, and obviously this means that Flamers and Exalted Flamers are a big option from Tzeentch.
But the bulk of the army was going to be CSM, and so I was considering the option of Thousand Sons being the legion of choice. Are the flame weapon options of TS actually worthwhile to field? What kinds of options would I have?
The current alternative is death guard... much less fitting on the looks of the models, but with Drone Plague Spitters and the Plague flame weapons available on the basic marines and terminators and the Prince (and foul blightspawn being a flamer character), they are currently a strong contender even if it means having to convert all the models!
Tzeentch Flamers of both variety are the best two flamer models available to Chaos for sure. You could give a nod to the list theme and stick a warpflamer in each MSU Rubric squad?
grouchoben wrote: Tzeentch Flamers of both variety are the best two flamer models available to Chaos for sure. You could give a nod to the list theme and stick a warpflamer in each MSU Rubric squad?
If that's the extent of it, I may try and mix in death guard instead... the Drone and the Foulspawn are at least as good as exalteds (but sacrificing range for durability). Means mixing nurgle and tzeentch though, which is a bit of a pain and not very fluffy.
I was considering running a whole squad of rubrics with warp flamers, but not sure how I'd actually get them to do anything that is worthwhile for the big points cost.
Jumping in here with an odd note, but does anyone else, after reading the Thousand Sons Helbrute fluff, feel like the unit should be a psyker? I mean the Thousand Sons lure people in with the promise of learning from arguably the greatest sorcerers in the galaxy, which means the victims have some level of psychic potential.
I mean I'm not asking for much more than maybe a baby smite or some kind of unique power (perhaps a psychic scream of sorts as their madness bleeds into the Immaterium and drops the leadership on units within a range of him?), but it feels like the ol' Brute should be bringing something more the table than he currently does based on lore (but it's not like it isn't the first time it's happened).
Less lore related, I've been looking at the army because of Kill Teams, and while tournament wise it looks like we're more mid-tier for high level tournaments (at least right now, maybe new surprises will shake out in the future we see changes this fall from Chapter Approved and future beta rules), what do people feel about pure Thousand Sons for more local level tournaments and casual play? Do we still struggle to see results in less crunchy environment without running Daemons?
And I have to say, that without special scenarios, I'm having trouble seeing a use for Magnus outside of Apoc sized games. Basically with his size he's too easy to shoot and too hard to protect without massive threat saturation on the table that can rip larger chunks out of the opponent's army than Magnus can in a single phase.
That said, I'm likely to end up caving and buying him anyways for the inevitable collection, but I'm just struggling to justify him since he falls hard to many lists, especially since a lot of armies seem to be pushing more towards firebase builds post April's FAQ.
Or am I just not opening my third eye enough to see the true method of using the big man properly?
I'd leave Magnus in the basket for a while, personally, and focus on getting a 30-tzang flerd, 3 daemon princes and Ahriman. I think that's the core of any competitive Sons list, personally.
grouchoben wrote: I'd leave Magnus in the basket for a while, personally, and focus on getting a 30-tzang flerd, 3 daemon princes and Ahriman. I think that's the core of any competitive Sons list, personally.
did you have any experience with Ts (beside playing the obvious supreme command)? do you see any list having a decent degree of success? ty
the only try i had with a Ts list was this
grouchoben wrote: I'd leave Magnus in the basket for a while, personally, and focus on getting a 30-tzang flerd, 3 daemon princes and Ahriman. I think that's the core of any competitive Sons list, personally.
Honestly I'm looking at putting more Rubrics into a list, if only a single unit to serve as a solid anvil for the army. But that's likely because I lean towards a hammer and anvil style of list building (or sword and shield depending on the army involved). Basically if I've got something aggressive and looking to throw it at my opponent I usually want something with some staying power to help take and hold objectives so I can play the mission if my plans fail (which they have done many times).
1500 pt list, i put the dark matter onto the wingless prince to send up with the warlord, they are my alpha strike. Then my rhinos move for secondary support and pop smoke, defiler gets buffed and kills something dead, and the beast moves up and also supports with mortal wounds.
What normally happens in my games is my enemy gets hit turn 1, the warlord kills something then gets focused to death (yes i lose slay the warlord but i he soaks up so much firepower its worth it), the tzaangors hit a flank and will slowly kill their way through a side, the rubrics take the center and put down fire support, mutalith will get half way there then get killed, but not before getting some good mw's off, and defiler gets ignored until t3, but ny then he has killed his points value. Rhinos are running around capturing objectives. And normally my opponents just get into a reaction mode and are never able to really focus on the mission because i take 2/3rds of the table and hold them to their corner.
1500 pt list, i put the dark matter onto the wingless prince to send up with the warlord, they are my alpha strike. Then my rhinos move for secondary support and pop smoke, defiler gets buffed and kills something dead, and the beast moves up and also supports with mortal wounds.
What normally happens in my games is my enemy gets hit turn 1, the warlord kills something then gets focused to death (yes i lose slay the warlord but i he soaks up so much firepower its worth it), the tzaangors hit a flank and will slowly kill their way through a side, the rubrics take the center and put down fire support, mutalith will get half way there then get killed, but not before getting some good mw's off, and defiler gets ignored until t3, but ny then he has killed his points value. Rhinos are running around capturing objectives. And normally my opponents just get into a reaction mode and are never able to really focus on the mission because i take 2/3rds of the table and hold them to their corner.
I hope this helps give you some ideas.
That is pretty close to something I was looking at running, though I was looking at an Exalted instead of a DP and just using a CP to swap for Flickering Flames so he could support the Defiler in the back (he'd be cheaper leaving room for dropping a couple of flamers in the Rubric squads for example), but otherwise that looks pretty close to something I was considering as a list, so it's good to know it works. Plus it has Ahriman who has been a favorite character of mine for a while now. Plus he basically has the coolest character model ever on the table (his old one was good, his disc riding one is even more awesome).
Sneggy wrote: I won an event last weekend playing pure thousand sons.
Daemon Princes, Ahriman, ton of tzaangor, enlightened (bows) and a tzaangor shaman.
Tabled every opponent, lowest score on ITC missions was 35.
I also had magnus but he's useless, only in the list until i have another 60 tzaangor painted up.
Glad to hear it went well. I've never played ITC format so I can't comment on list design or tactics, but outside of that I don't feel running AoS Beastmen in Space is quite as strong. Don't get me wrong, they're effective, but I feel like the Rubrics can pull some weight outside of the higher tournament formats.
I always find my rubrics do well as an anchor, but they need something else keeping the enemy busy. A great example of how rubrics can be amazing is last time i used them, had a single squad of 10. They got charged by genestealers (20 of them, down to 17 from overwatch) and only lost 3 thanks to the beauty that is our 3+/4++ save vs them. Killed 4 more in cc. Then i dark matter crystaled them out of cc to 9" away and unloaded on them. That left 4 of them left.
My point is if you need a rock vs units that normally get torn apart by certain "scarry" units an enemy can take Rubrics can do a great job.
Hows the thoughts on TS maulerfiends?
I'm hoping to use Arihman to slingshot one up the board turn 1 with warptime and diabolic strength with my tzaangors following in behind and rubrics to hold the backline
Azuza001 wrote: I always find my rubrics do well as an anchor, but they need something else keeping the enemy busy. A great example of how rubrics can be amazing is last time i used them, had a single squad of 10. They got charged by genestealers (20 of them, down to 17 from overwatch) and only lost 3 thanks to the beauty that is our 3+/4++ save vs them. Killed 4 more in cc. Then i dark matter crystaled them out of cc to 9" away and unloaded on them. That left 4 of them left.
My point is if you need a rock vs units that normally get torn apart by certain "scarry" units an enemy can take Rubrics can do a great job.
or he rolled very bad or you were very lucky to lost only 3 marines, 17 genestealers delivers 68 hits (average 45 get trough) then wound 22 considering each 6 have ap-4 and basically 5 of them have ap -3 you cant lost just 3 marines, also without 6's you save at 3+ so you get average 8-9 dead. U were very lucky.
Sneggy wrote: I won an event last weekend playing pure thousand sons.
Daemon Princes, Ahriman, ton of tzaangor, enlightened (bows) and a tzaangor shaman.
Tabled every opponent, lowest score on ITC missions was 35.
I also had magnus but he's useless, only in the list until i have another 60 tzaangor painted up.
Glad to hear it went well. I've never played ITC format so I can't comment on list design or tactics, but outside of that I don't feel running AoS Beastmen in Space is quite as strong. Don't get me wrong, they're effective, but I feel like the Rubrics can pull some weight outside of the higher tournament formats.
Rubrics are a mid tier unit, the tzaangor are one of the most buffable units in the game and incredibly powerful with the right support.
blackmage wrote:
Sneggy wrote: I won an event last weekend playing pure thousand sons.
Daemon Princes, Ahriman, ton of tzaangor, enlightened (bows) and a tzaangor shaman.
Tabled every opponent, lowest score on ITC missions was 35.
I also had magnus but he's useless, only in the list until i have another 60 tzaangor painted up.
who you played against? and what did you play, i mean how many tzaangors and enlightened, thx
I ran:
ahriman on disc
2 winged princes
60 tzaangor
5 rubrics (backfield objective holders and occasional firestormers, largely useless)
9 enlightened with bows
tzaangor shaman
magnus.
Round 1 I faced custodes and a knight castellan. Went second, survived the castellan turn one (barely, magnus on 5 wounds) Then moved up, engaged the custodes with tzaangor, magnus warptimed and charged the castellan. Didn't kill it but pinned it to a wall so it couldnt fall back.
Game just turned into a churn fest as I smited/other mortal wound powers and buffed up the tzaangor and the tzaangor chewed through his custodes.
Tabled him turn 3.
Game 2 I played vs tau.
Dark matter crystal put 30 tzaangor in combat with his whole army turn one. they ate everything. Took me until turn 4 to finish off the 3 riptides.
Game 3 played vs shining spear and reaper ynnarri. he went first, magnus died. spears went straight into the tzaangor and tried to get my characters. I lost a prince and some tzaangor. Then the tzaangor churn machine started up and all the spears died to a combination of vets, fight twice and my psychic phase the next turn. Then just a matter of dark matter crystal the other unit up and engage his lines. Tabled him turn 3.
the only reason i didnt max score every round was tabling my opponent too early (and the custodes player having an impossible to max out secondary build)
tzaangor are incredible. I'm painting up another 30, possibly 60. magnus is freakin' useless and rubrics are super expensive and just not punchy enough for my money.
Sneggy wrote: I won an event last weekend playing pure thousand sons.
Daemon Princes, Ahriman, ton of tzaangor, enlightened (bows) and a tzaangor shaman.
Tabled every opponent, lowest score on ITC missions was 35.
I also had magnus but he's useless, only in the list until i have another 60 tzaangor painted up.
Glad to hear it went well. I've never played ITC format so I can't comment on list design or tactics, but outside of that I don't feel running AoS Beastmen in Space is quite as strong. Don't get me wrong, they're effective, but I feel like the Rubrics can pull some weight outside of the higher tournament formats.
Rubrics are a mid tier unit, the tzaangor are one of the most buffable units in the game and incredibly powerful with the right support.
blackmage wrote:
Sneggy wrote: I won an event last weekend playing pure thousand sons.
Daemon Princes, Ahriman, ton of tzaangor, enlightened (bows) and a tzaangor shaman.
Tabled every opponent, lowest score on ITC missions was 35.
I also had magnus but he's useless, only in the list until i have another 60 tzaangor painted up.
who you played against? and what did you play, i mean how many tzaangors and enlightened, thx
I ran:
ahriman on disc
2 winged princes
60 tzaangor
5 rubrics (backfield objective holders and occasional firestormers, largely useless)
9 enlightened with bows
tzaangor shaman
magnus.
Round 1 I faced custodes and a knight castellan. Went second, survived the castellan turn one (barely, magnus on 5 wounds) Then moved up, engaged the custodes with tzaangor, magnus warptimed and charged the castellan. Didn't kill it but pinned it to a wall so it couldnt fall back.
Game just turned into a churn fest as I smited/other mortal wound powers and buffed up the tzaangor and the tzaangor chewed through his custodes.
Tabled him turn 3.
Game 2 I played vs tau.
Dark matter crystal put 30 tzaangor in combat with his whole army turn one. they ate everything. Took me until turn 4 to finish off the 3 riptides.
Game 3 played vs shining spear and reaper ynnarri. he went first, magnus died. spears went straight into the tzaangor and tried to get my characters. I lost a prince and some tzaangor. Then the tzaangor churn machine started up and all the spears died to a combination of vets, fight twice and my psychic phase the next turn. Then just a matter of dark matter crystal the other unit up and engage his lines. Tabled him turn 3.
the only reason i didnt max score every round was tabling my opponent too early (and the custodes player having an impossible to max out secondary build)
tzaangor are incredible. I'm painting up another 30, possibly 60. magnus is freakin' useless and rubrics are super expensive and just not punchy enough for my money.
i didn't understand if you used crystal+warptime same turn, what i knew is you cant
I would suggest not to take rulings from the warhammer facebook page. It repeatedly states they are not the rules or faq team on their page.
Thats an extremely contradictory ruling made in those comments if it holds true.
You can use the dark matter crystal to leave your deployment zone turn one purely because you are not entering reinforcements (at no point does the dark matter crystal use the word or phrasing for reinforcements.)
Units are only prohibited from being warptimed if they arrived from reinforcements this turn (which dark matter crystal units didn't by definition else they wouldn't be able to leave their own deployment zone.)
So either you can't leave your own deployment zone via dark matter crystal (something which has been explicitly stated as legal) and you cannot be warptimed. Or you can do both.
To do one but not the other is entirely contradictory to the logic of either working.
I've attached the relevant part of the FAQ clearly stating the block on warptime only applies to units which arrived from reinforcements and the wording for dark matter crystal to show it never states reinforcements.
i also sent this information to a rules judge prior to the event and they confirmed it would be played as I have described as its the only logical way to read it.
Yes i admit he rolled bad and i rolled well with my rubrics vs those genestealers, but not stupid amazing on either side. I think he only got like 30 hits or so on me, i remember he did average from hit to wound. Ap-4 makes us a 4++ save on rubrics, and not that big of a deal. That was the point i was trying to make. What other troop choice in the game gets a 4++ vs genestealers for the cost?
math-hammer is an incredibly useful tool but real experience with a said situation can make difference as well. Cant tell how many times math hammer said i should be able to do something no problem and then i failed anyways. Like the dreaded reroll a 1 and it becomes a 1 when you need a 2.
Anyways i don't normally dmc then wartime the same unit in a turn, i prefer to warptime my aetherstride lord for an incredibly fast alpha hit, but yes its a legal move if you want to. As Sneggy pointed out, the ruling on warptime after deep strike is only on reinforcements and does not apply to units that start the game on the table.
So either you can't leave your own deployment zone via dark matter crystal (something which has been explicitly stated as legal) and you cannot be warptimed. Or you can do both.
To do one but not the other is entirely contradictory to the logic of either working.
This is a great point. If DMC is reinforcements then it cannot leave your deployment T1. If it is not, then warptime after it is used would be allowed. So the Facebook post contradicts itself.
So either you can't leave your own deployment zone via dark matter crystal (something which has been explicitly stated as legal) and you cannot be warptimed. Or you can do both.
To do one but not the other is entirely contradictory to the logic of either working.
This is a great point. If DMC is reinforcements then it cannot leave your deployment T1. If it is not, then warptime after it is used would be allowed. So the Facebook post contradicts itself.
Combined with the fact we know you can use the dark matter crystal to leave your deployment zone as that has been officially ruled its permissive to warptiming the dark matter crystalled unit.
Yes i admit he rolled bad and i rolled well with my rubrics vs those genestealers, but not stupid amazing on either side. I think he only got like 30 hits or so on me, i remember he did average from hit to wound. Ap-4 makes us a 4++ save on rubrics, and not that big of a deal. That was the point i was trying to make. What other troop choice in the game gets a 4++ vs genestealers for the cost?
well considering they should hit about 45 times yes far below average you were lucky indeed, btw if you think rubrics are worth is ok.
pink horrors and they cost just 7pts and shoot as hell, if genestealers charge 30 pink horrors with a prince with demonspark near they suffer average 9-10 wounds means about 7 dead then they crash into 3++ save if i want. Then of course pure Ts wont play horrors but anyway for me rubric is really a waste of point, the only rubrics i would like to try are those with flamers in rhino.
I have ran a flamer squad before. 10 men, 1 w/ soulreaper, 4 with flamers, in a rhino and it went well. My opponent was using a hemlock flyer and he flew it forwards to hit me, doing some serious damage to my defiler. But that allowed my rubrics to just get into range jumping out of their rhino and moving towards it, dropped it between the flamers and the smites / infernal gaze from the rest of the army.
I found it to be a bit too expensive, though the versatility was useful. I am thinking of using a small 5 man squad in a rhino with 4 throwers to use as a deatraction / more immediate threat option. I find tsons work best when we force the opponent to choose between multiple threats.
1500 pt list, i put the dark matter onto the wingless prince to send up with the warlord, they are my alpha strike.
So you mean that you Teleport your Wingless DP? DMC only works on Infantrie. DP ist Monster even without Wings.
The bearer can use the DMC. So if the DP carries it he can use it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: I have ran a flamer squad before. 10 men, 1 w/ soulreaper, 4 with flamers, in a rhino and it went well. My opponent was using a hemlock flyer and he flew it forwards to hit me, doing some serious damage to my defiler. But that allowed my rubrics to just get into range jumping out of their rhino and moving towards it, dropped it between the flamers and the smites / infernal gaze from the rest of the army.
I found it to be a bit too expensive, though the versatility was useful. I am thinking of using a small 5 man squad in a rhino with 4 throwers to use as a deatraction / more immediate threat option. I find tsons work best when we force the opponent to choose between multiple threats.
5 man units definitely look like a good use of going all flamers/Mortal Wound producing units, but at 10 man sized blobs I'd probably keep the unit at 2 flamers to keep the price down. Plus the extra points could go towards a Havoc Launcher for the Rhino which basically makes it like a diet Whirlwind that can carry troops (or a weaker Razorback that has more transport capacity0. Don't forget about the Warpfire Gargoyle strat for the Rhino if you're being aggressive with it as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I almost feel like anyone who runs a lot of Rubrics (say 6+ squads, even if they're all MSU flamer squads) should look at running the Icon of Flame on them as that'll give you on adverage at least extra one mortal wound output a turn which can always be helpful.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I had another look at the MVB today and I think we've been overlooking a utility for the big guy: a self buffing distraction carnifex. He's a reasonably decent melee unit, isn't too fragile and all the vortex buffs can be poured onto himself as you ram him into your enemy's squisher units. The only buff that doesn't really help him is the leadership one but outside of that it's still a solid option for the unit if you want something big and scary looking to cause a ruckus while the rest of your army does its thing.
I personally like the mvb, i have 2 of them and they do a great job as a distraction. Once the opponent starts shooting at them they know they have to kill it asap, or it gets stronger below 7 wounds. Problem is its cost and certain things like a knight can one shot it off the board without even blinking while the rest of its shots go somewhere else. Its crazy how strong knights are now with their d6str 14 ap-5 3d3 dmg guns (who ever thought that was a fair weapon to put into the game should be slapped, it makes land raiders look like old school rhinos. I know you want your 600 pt pretty toy to be strong but i would also like my 350 pt best tank out there before you get to lords of war to be.... semi tough to kill).
Azuza001 wrote: I personally like the mvb, i have 2 of them and they do a great job as a distraction. Once the opponent starts shooting at them they know they have to kill it asap, or it gets stronger below 7 wounds. Problem is its cost and certain things like a knight can one shot it off the board without even blinking while the rest of its shots go somewhere else. Its crazy how strong knights are now with their d6str 14 ap-5 3d3 dmg guns (who ever thought that was a fair weapon to put into the game should be slapped, it makes land raiders look like old school rhinos. I know you want your 600 pt pretty toy to be strong but i would also like my 350 pt best tank out there before you get to lords of war to be.... semi tough to kill).
150 for a MVB is a steal for what is basically a mortal wound/buffing-centric Giant Spawn (seriously, read the fluff, I've seen some complaints that it's not a daemon when it's basically a massive Tzeentch touched spawn) so a Knight committing to kill that is basically overkill.
That said, Knights are in that place right now where they're a little too good and I'm hoping some points changes in CA will bring them more in line with other armies.
ClockworkZion wrote: ...How in the world is that a Thousand Sons army? They should have called that Chaos Undivided.
Its not really anyones fault - ITC just bases the declared chapter based on whichever has the most points. It matters more for ITC standings - I was wondering as the way Frontline wrote on their site it sounded like the player was using magnus so I was surprised...
ClockworkZion wrote: ...How in the world is that a Thousand Sons army? They should have called that Chaos Undivided.
Its not really anyones fault - ITC just bases the declared chapter based on whichever has the most points. It matters more for ITC standings - I was wondering as the way Frontline wrote on their site it sounded like the player was using magnus so I was surprised...
They should just catagorize armies based on if they draw from a single codex or not. Quit calling an army Blood Angels just because most of its points is in a Death Company and not the CP farm Imperial Guard detachment. This sort of rubbish makes it impossible to find the lists that actually represent the army and not some weird version of an army no one actually plays outside of these sort of events.
/rant
Anyways I've been mulling over a pure TS army at the 2k level and I think I'm just about done hashing out what I'm looking at building, so I'll be throwing it out there for some ideas/advice in the near future. I'm considering expanding into Tzeentch daemons eventually, but for now I'm going to stick to my TS until I run out of stuff that I want to add to my army/collection.
i know there were another Ts list in top8
Btw regardless of anything look so strange that a list with no troops won the BAO, suppose he tabled or almost tabled most of his opponents, im not used here in Italy see a successful list without any form of obj secure units.
Sorry if this is a common question, I cant seem to find a dedicated thread for it.
What is the most effective psychic powers that you take with Magnus and 2x daemon princes? Their role in the army is to be really aggressive, I don't have any tsons or heretical astartes units to really buff.
I run a mixed list of tsons running cultists with autoguns, one medium size blob of tzaangors and a renegade knight detachment of a knight and 2x armigers for dakka.
I tried a set up where I had glamour and weaver of fates on magnus and I see people taking temporal mastery on him and just rushing him up the board, so just curious what you guys would run psychic wise with this kind of list.
usually i play Ahriman+2Dp's and Magnus
i give Magnus, weaver of fate warptime and infernal gateway, Ahriman get temporal manipulation glamour of tz and death hex
the prince with high magister has bolt of change and diabolic strenght
the other one gaze of fate and tz firestorm
If you have tzaangors and you dont play a shaman you can think about prescience on Ahriman or high magister Dp then you can make Ahriman more aggressive with doombolt giving temporal manipulation to the last Dp, is all about the enemy you face, some key powers must go on Magnus to be quite sure they gets off.
For anyone interested a user on r/thousandsons does lots of list write ups based on tournaments. There are actually a good handful of “real” TS lists on there. It should be easy to find if you poke around the sub.
I didn't see a 1ksons Kill Team thread - anyone tried them out yet? I don't think I'd go all in for a 40k army, but a box of Rubrics and Tzaangors is not out of the question going forward. They seem to have a nice mix of everything - solid shooting (though lacking multi-damage weapons), reasonable melee, some cheap bodies, one of the two with Psychic powers, fairly tough (especially since they're 2+ against most guns in the game).
Hi, so i am totally new again to the hobby. Was very active back in 4th and a bit of 5th ed, but then i stopped. But now i decided to come back again, you can run as fast as you want, but you can never escaping Wargaming it seems.
Anyway. So i bought myself back into the game again with Thousand Sons, i was awestruck when i saw them, and i got some questions i hope some of you can help me with.
So i very much like Rubric Marines and Tzaangors so i bought a box of each (thinks its important to start with troops first) and i am wondering, what is the best setup for them? Rubric Marine flamers seems very good but very expensive, so should i just go with the standard Inferno pistol, and the debate if its 5 man groups or 10 man, i want them in a Rhino as dedicated transport, what is the most optimal? (In your opinion).
And Tzaangors, well it seems they are a blob unit with 20-30 in each, but i havent seen anyone talk about their weapon setup, so a little insight would help a lot,
And then there is stratagems, very interesting aspect of the game. Ive looked through our codex and the 'Webway Infiltration' looked especially good, id imagine a Tzaangor blob is good for Deep Striking with that stratagem. But what other stratagems should i look out for?
Last thing. I love Scarab Occult Terminators, their look is amazing. But what about on the table?
Sorry for all of these questions, i am going to read through all the 67 pages of this Topic so i can learn as much as possible (:
Well, honestly, it seems rubrics work best in 5 man teams. That gives you the optimum number of smites. But that doesnt stop me from running 2 groups of 10 for soul reapers (love them Soul reaper autocannons). I dont usually run flamers because rubrics are already expensive and inferno bolters are what i prefer, but small 5 man squads of flamers can really put out the damage if you deploy them in a rhino.
This edition of 40k is all about hordes. Tzaangors and cultists whenever you can, followed by rubrics and the like for supportive rolls, works well enough for friendly games. If your looking more competitive most of those serious lists wont run rubrics. I ususally run my tzaangors in groups of 12-18, using a dark matter crystal to put them into deep strike range t1. Webway infiltration doesn't allow t1 assault. As for weapons, i give them cc blades, they are ment for cc not shooting so why bother?
Scarab occult look cool but are too expensive to be really useful. However it does depend on what your trying to do. If you are looking at ruberics and planning to deep strike them occult are better due to free ds.
Stratagems to look at are things like deamonforge, veterans of the long war, and chaos familiar. Swapping a useless spell for a better option later in the game can be very important.
As mentioned, if you're spamming baby smite (and maybe other powers) then 5 man units of Rubrics will be optimal, but if you want the heavy weapons you'll need at least 10 in a unit.
As for the warpflamer I stick to a 1 to 5 ratio of flamers to bodies. That keeps unit cost down while giving me some charge protection/anti-horde for my units.
As for Tzaangors, I like the Tzaangor blades (wish the shields had some utility like +1 to their saves because I like how they look with sword and board) since I don't feel autopistol shots are worth writing home about on a unit that could have an extra attack and smack with -1 AP. I'm currently building a unit of 30 to throw up the board and get stuck in early in the game.
One thing to note about Scarab Occult Terminators is that a unit of 5 with all the toys (a Soulreaper and Hellfyre Missiles namely) will be roughly the same cost as a kitted out Rubrics squad (with how I run my Rubrics it's actually cheaper but this is because Warpflamers cost almost as much as an extra body and the two I take push the price of my Rubric squads up by 30 points, which is about 20 points too much in my opinion), and they are definitely the best terminator choice in the game right now (getting to effectively ignore the first -1AP against 1 damage weapons forcing people to overcharge their plasma if they want to reliably weaken your armour, and even then you still have a 4++ so you still save more wounds than regular Terminators).
Basically the SoT are best used in a minimum sized unit with a couple of upgrades to maximize the damage they through out on the drop and then expect them to die to return fire (as such you should try to make that 9" charge if your target survives as being in combat could keep you alive longer).
That said, I'd probably only take a single unit of them since I want a Shaman (or two) to support my Goats (one for my blob of Tzaangors, one for the Elightened with their spears), and use them like Chaos Marines have been using Terminators for a long time: dropping in on a high priority target, lighting it up and then expecting them to die when the opponent lights them up the next turn.
kolos wrote: Hello friends. Is it possible normal play a thousand sons without tzaangors in a non-sporting meta?
While Rubrics are more durable than Marines, they're fairly pricey meaning you're not going to have a lot of bodies on the board and will need to plan accordingly.
Additionally Tzaangors provide the army with some much needed melee support that our shooting focus heavy faction lacks normally. So while possible, you're going to find yourself in a bad situation if you don't run some melee support.
On a different note, I mentioned a while ago that I was looking to build a 2k list and finally settled on what I'm planning to run. It's definitely more aggressive than some lists (and I definitely need to go back and adjust to fit in Brayhorns when I sit down with the book again as I just realized I forgot about them) but I think it could be a fair bit of fun in the less competetive meta my FLGS tends to have (plus there is a heavy focus on melee in people's armies so having something that can punch back seems like a good idea).
Thousand Sons 2k
++HQ++ Exalted Sorceror (2x Power Sword, Disc) Warlord (Aetherstride), Relic: (Seer's Bane) 140
Exalted Sorceror (Force Stave, Inferno Bolt pistol) Relic: (Helm of the Third Eye or Dark Matter Crystal) 121
I like it. That vortex beast is going to get targeted hard by anyone that has an idea of what it can do so i would suggest protecting it with weaver of fates / glamor of tzeentch. If they let it live boost those tzaangors and make them suffer.
However i would look at ways to save a few points and make those sorcerers deamon princes. Nothing punishes an enemy harder than a deamon prince with aetherstride flying 36" across the table t1 and hitting something open hard. Have the 2nd deamon prince (i dont give my 2nd one wings) dark matter cryatal a large blob of tzaangors up to charge as well (Between a brayhorn for 8" charge and rerolling a dice from gaze of fate and command point reroll you should get in unless the dice gods hate you) its a serious hard hitting t1, followed by everything else being in range t2. Play super aggressive and super confident and you can make almost anyone take a second look at Tsons.
But the true key is be sure to target exactly what your enemy has that will hurt you, and dont bite off more than you can chew. Hitting what will hurt you, ignoring what you simply can't deal with, and using the speed of that t1 move/dmc teleport to hit the flank or center that needs to be weakened so the rest of your army can focus on the actual objectives of the mission.
Azuza001 wrote: I like it. That vortex beast is going to get targeted hard by anyone that has an idea of what it can do so i would suggest protecting it with weaver of fates / glamor of tzeentch. If they let it live boost those tzaangors and make them suffer.
However i would look at ways to save a few points and make those sorcerers deamon princes. Nothing punishes an enemy harder than a deamon prince with aetherstride flying 36" across the table t1 and hitting something open hard. Have the 2nd deamon prince (i dont give my 2nd one wings) dark matter cryatal a large blob of tzaangors up to charge as well (Between a brayhorn for 8" charge and rerolling a dice from gaze of fate and command point reroll you should get in unless the dice gods hate you) its a serious hard hitting t1, followed by everything else being in range t2. Play super aggressive and super confident and you can make almost anyone take a second look at Tsons.
But the true key is be sure to target exactly what your enemy has that will hurt you, and dont bite off more than you can chew. Hitting what will hurt you, ignoring what you simply can't deal with, and using the speed of that t1 move/dmc teleport to hit the flank or center that needs to be weakened so the rest of your army can focus on the actual objectives of the mission.
If it lives to buff the Tzaangors it's a bonus, if it's being shot down then it works as a distraction carnifex and can buff itself in combat.
And I know the Daemon Princes are popular, but to make room for some of the things I want to try out in more casual games I stepped back from them to run Sorcerors instead. That said, if the melee Sorceror ends up dead all the time then I'll look for a way to change him into a DP instead.
I'm sure the more I play and the more I get a handle of the current nature of my local meta my list will change (perhaps turn a unit of Tzaangors into a unit of Cultists and give them 4x heavy stubbers and shove them on my back line to screen and hold an objective). Basically I feel like 8th encourages an almost rainbow list of various units (at least outside of crunchier metas) and that can make for some interesting games.
I finally gave in and got the Primarch, even though I knew that he is no longer (if he ever was) a good unit as such.
I want to fit him in a 1750pts pure TS army, for a local league, which is mostly friendly gaming and win-at-all-costs -lists. But as always it would be nice to do "ok" rather than fail completely.
To that end, and keeping in mind that its pure TS, what should I try to protect/leverage Magnus with? He eats anti-tank shots, so, something tanky to go along? Helbrute, Scarabs?
Also, I was thinking about using the crystal to drop 20ish Tzangoors in first turn out there to support Magnus, if I go first and Magnus has something worthwhile he could assault.
Is it at all viable to "castle up" a bit with Magnus, sling super-smites, and have sh**load of casters take advantage of his aura?
I have seen quite a few different 1KS lists running one or multiple Daemon Princes without wings. What is the reasoning behind running a 1KS prince without wings?
Is there a secret strat that I should know about ?
BoomWolf wrote: The problem is, the prince is mostly a CC beast
And without wings, he can't reliably get to CC.
While I agree, I also think that a Prince on foot will be in combat turn 2 or 3 anyway, if you want it to be, with the first turn/2 turns simply using the Character rule to smite and use other powers.
Someone in the past mentioned that a Prince on foot is only a tiny amount of points more expensive than an Exalted Sorcerer on disk, so, if you have one of those, and a few points spare, the upgrade makes sense in a lot of cases.
The biggest things wings give you is movement flexibility. It's not necessarily the extra 4" - a DP w/out fly is far easier to screen against than one with fly. The same goes for all combat characters.
That being said, I think a DP on foot may be viable as a backfield support / countercharge unit
I agree that the wings give you the movement options.
But, currently the “competitive” Thousand Sons list is a very different setup. It is currently starting to catch up to the original ideas we had here, in regards to smite and power spam. In that kind of setup, it doesn’t matter whether or not you can charge or move over units, as the intention is almost to be a big smite ball behind big, durable and/or cheap screens. One of the current options is a big blob of pink horrors rocking a fantastic invuln save via stratagem boosting. In a lot of games, if you control your objective and the mid-table, then the pressure is on the opponent to break that hold. They need to then come to your Princes. 30 mortal wounds a turn, is 30 mortal wounds chewing through their screens and forward moving units. Of course, it’s not always that simple, but the concept is there.
Kdash wrote: I agree that the wings give you the movement options.
But, currently the “competitive” Thousand Sons list is a very different setup. It is currently starting to catch up to the original ideas we had here, in regards to smite and power spam. In that kind of setup, it doesn’t matter whether or not you can charge or move over units, as the intention is almost to be a big smite ball behind big, durable and/or cheap screens. One of the current options is a big blob of pink horrors rocking a fantastic invuln save via stratagem boosting. In a lot of games, if you control your objective and the mid-table, then the pressure is on the opponent to break that hold. They need to then come to your Princes. 30 mortal wounds a turn, is 30 mortal wounds chewing through their screens and forward moving units. Of course, it’s not always that simple, but the concept is there.
I am building a list that mainly relies on having a lot of different moving parts consistent of Death Guard Fast Attack Units, mainly Foetid-Bloat Drones being led by a DP of Nurgle, backed up by either Magnus or Mortarion. The Tzeentch DP's without wings along side a horde of Cultists would provide strong counter-attack options and just overal power spam. Or at least, that the idea behind the list
Wingless DP with a second (because the first is in the webway) Tzaangor flerd is cheap, cheerful, and cannot be ignored. It buffs its flerd with -1 or +1++ to hit on the way in, pops diabolic strngth on turn 2 and goes nuts.
Yeah, the extra tiny number of points to go to dp without wings from exalted is almost always worth it. As a backfield support unit i run mine with a defiler. It keeps deffy running at optimal status and deffy keeps him from being a target of shooting. Them and 2 squads of 5 men rubrics make up my typical anvil position and seldom let me down. I mean, who wants to assault a dp and defiler standing there? And the rubrics and dp can smite/gaze their way into easy value while the tzaangors / mutalith / warlord dp / 10 man rubrics keep masive pressure up on the main front.
Ever try the 20 man rubric bomb? I did this once against dark eldar ravangers, dropped them in turn 3 after most of the bloodshead had happened and used vets of the long war double tapped into 2 ravagers blowing one away and completly crippling the other one.
Not the smartest tactic mind you but because everyone was playing "really competitive highly focused lists" my random right field drop really through them for a loop. Won 2 of 3 games that tournament.......
I never had to use the crystal to do that, normally by the time i drop them its either been the final nail in the coffen or a last ditch effort to strike back.
I dont have scarab occult terms so i cant comment on them but with the high number of access to plasma out there scarab dont seem as viable.
The best way to think of the rubrick trick is as a secondary anvil to force my opponent into a corner. Like i said, easy to counter and hard to pull off but when your opponent isnt expecting it it can make them change their gameplans. Its not easy to kill 20 rubrics in one go. And if you can get weaver of fates or glamor on them? Thats one hell of an anvil, 20 -1 to hit 2+/3++ vs d1 or 3+/4++ vs anything else guys? Oh cast prescience on them from a exalted or deamon prince for hitting on 2's rerolling ones.... and veterans for +1 to wound..... its like anything else in our bag of tricks. If you buff it up to crazy levels you get a crazy effective and scarey squad.
10 Scarabs with 2 Soulreapers = 428
20 Rubric with 2 Soulreapers = 433
You can then add 2 Missile Racks to the Scarabs for an additional 44 points. (472 total)
Both units have the same amount of wounds, Scarabs have the better base armour save, but also run the risk of dying outright to 2 damage weapons.
I’m seriously tempted to run a 9 Scarab unit. My 5 man unit did alright at the LGT once I ditched using deepstrike and went with using DMC on them.
It just sucks that they use power swords at str 4 though.
BoomWolf wrote: Dmc? Why would it be different from deepstrike? Am I missing anything?
Anyways, Scarabs also don't eat as many CPs as they CAN deepstrike naturally, and don't need the moral autopass as much.
Using the DMC allows you to essentially deep strike turn 1.
Essentially, with terminators, you get the option of using both. If you know you can wait for turn 2, then deep striking is fine, however, if you need that firepower and reasonably durable mid table screen turn 1, then using DMC is really nice. It depends totally on the game, but, I found a lot more success from using DMC on a squad of 5 turn 1, than I did when using it on a daemon prince or deep striking turn 2.
Of course, if you deep strike and have the DMC, you can essentially perform a second deep strike sometime later in the game with the terminators, giving you additional mobility.
Moral could be an issue for a blob of 20 Rubric, but they can be surprisingly durable and when using 20 you’ll probably always be deep striking them for the initial advantage or hiding them from sight and using the DMC on them.
I just got through a string of games and figured I would drop some of my experiences into the collective wisdom of this thread.
Generally:
Smite, Smite, Smite.....then Smite some more: So when I first started playing with the codex, I was trying to cast all the powers and buff etc. That is a mistake. The only real advantage the Tsons have is our mastery of Smite in the form of no penalty and the extra 6" range which is HUGE. Now, I take at least 4 casters (3 HQ and Shaman) or more. Their primary goal is to Smite. And this strategy has worked really well. The last game I Smited a Stromraven to death from full wounds, finished off another one, and kill two scout squads. Just smiting. Also, keep your HQs relatively together so you can try to concentrate on one unit if possible. And since Smite goes of on a 5 (4 with the +1 Ahriman or WL trait) it is reliable, which leads me to my next point.
If you are relying on psychic buffs for your strategy, you are already half-way to losing: Don't get me wrong, I bring all the favorite spells on my casters to cast after they smite. However, if your strategy is dependent on casting certain spells, then get ready to lose a lot. The problem is psychic powers are unreliable outside of Smite. 7 to get off Glamer? That is a fail rate of 50%. And it is a much bigger deal to fail a power that is not Smite. roll a 4 and miss a smite. Ok, that is slightly less wounds done this round. Roll a 4 and fail Warptime? Well if your whole battle plan was relying on Warptime to get a certain unit in combat, then well you are screwed. As long as 8th edition does not let you even cast a spell twice, even if the first is a failure, you can not reasonably rely on buffs from psychic powers as a strategy. The buffs are good. I use them, often. But my strategy always puts them second to smite. And since that change I have noticed my army preforming much better.
As for Units I have used on multiple occasions:
Ahriman: Awesome, I bring him in every list, and any time I have not brought him I regretted it. He gets that +1 which makes Smite that much deadlier, makes Doombolt an 8, which while not great, is much more reasonable if you want to try for more Mortal Wounds, and that +1 makes the buff spells more reliable. I have him on foot as I don't have the disc model, but if anyone has used both, is the disc really worth the extra 35 points?
Daemon Princes: Awesome bring them. Nuff Said.
Terminator Sorcerer: I was really digging him for a while, but now I am kinda over it. He does get that +1 for the first case which is nice, but at 140 points, you only save 40 points on bringing a daemon prince with wings, and he is more expensive than a foot Ahriman. The natural deepstrike is good, but the beta rule hurts that, and I find that many times I just end up bring him in near my lines so he can contribute to the smite attack. The inferno combi-bolter is nice, but once he is on the field, I find I don't really get to use it as he needs to advance to get anywhere after the initial deepstrike. I am trying some lists without him, now so we will see if I miss him.
Tgor Shaman: Again Awesome. 90 points for fast smite action. The only spell I ever bring on him now is the healing spell, if I need it late game. Otherwise his job is to sit behind my enlightened buffing them, and casting smite. I am thinking of getting another one to add to my army.
Dreadnought (I am old school and I hate hellbrute): Only worth bringing with the twin laser cannon for AT, as dealing with T8 is probably our biggest weakness (actually that is true of a lot of army builds). I would bring him with LC and ML but I don't have the model for that and I am very into WYSIWYG. Also that stratagem that lets him shoot twice can really catch people off guard with anything that is aggressive and in your lines quickly.
SoT: I love these models so much. I have ones that are painted great, and I have used at least one squad in EVERY battle I have played with Tsons, going back to the Index. That said they are just sooooooo over priced for what they do. (as are all terminators). Like 10 points. I have used the big block of them deepstriking, and for how much you pay, they just don't preform. And then since at 2000 points they are like 25% of your army, you generally don't have much more threats and so people concentrate on them and they die. And if you are in a Knight heavy meta, forget it. Knights kill them so easily with all that D2 shooting it is silly. I have been fielding them lately as a minimum size squad with no toys just to harass the backfield. They are better for that, but at 204 for a minimum still too expensive for what you get. As much as I love these guys, my newest list switches them out for Flamers of Tzeentch.
Cultists: good objective campers, and tax units. what else is there to say about them.
Tgors: I like them with the blades. I made the mistake of getting some with the chainsword and pistol, and those are not good. the pistol shot not only is not worth losing the -1 AP, but many times I don't even shoot it because I don't want casualties that will take me out of charge range. Personally I think one bigger unit (around 20) with the horn out of deepstrike is the way to go. I have also used a 10 man in a rhino. I think that is better than trying to walk up the field with a larger squad. Also the rhino is nice, that if it lives, it is great for soaking up overwatch. If rhinos were cheaper I think this would be a really good way to take them, like three units of them. That still might work, if someone tried is post it and let me know. Personally I think you always bring one deepstirke squad, and don't bring more unless you are going whole hog and bring like 3 or 4 units, some deepstrike and some in rhinos.
Rubrics: Again, how much do I love this unit. I have been using Rubrics in my chaos armies the majority of games going back to 3rd edition. And quite frankly, in 8th edition they are the best they have ever been. To bad that is very mediocre at best. I don't think they are as bad as a lot of people on Dakka think they are, but they are definitively mediocre. If they got the 2-3 point price drop they need, then we would be talking. In the whole Rubrics v. SoT debate I think that Rubrics are probably the better choice. Both have a 2+ verse small arms fire making them difficult to shift with rapid fire type weapons. So most of your opponents will then use heavier guns on them, and that is where the 2W of the SoT becomes a liability, especially in metas with lots of Knights, Plasma, etc. (which is I think is most metas). The powerswords are nice, however they are really only good against low tough, good save models, which is basically marines, and who has trouble killing marines?
Note: Personally I don't think it would be game breaking to give the Aspiring Sorcerer the ability to cast normal smite, it would really just add into the only thing our Army has any advantage at. That would actually make Rubrics with taking at 20 points a pop (I still think SoT would not be worth it).
Tgor Enlightened with spears: So I think the Enlightened really are two different units. I have been going back and forth on the spear guys. They seem to be very hit or miss. I have games where they engage in combat and deliver those D2 hits and do a lot of damage, then I have games where they do nothing as the enemy makes all of the saves as the spears are only -1 AP. The problem is that their primary targets are 2W infantry and vehicles. However most 2W infantry and almost all vehicles have a good save, so you are really relying on that -1 to get though the armor. And against vehicles, they are only St5, so if you don't get lucky and get a good number of the auto wounds, then they are not going to put that many wounds on the vehicle. They are pretty fragile as well (literally too as the models break super easy). T4 2W and 5++ really doesn't save you against any even decent shooting attacks. However, now that I bring other units that are much deadlier, (Flamers, Pink Horror Blob) so my opponents are not targeting them as much, they have been preforming better. Also, take 9 or don't take any.
Tgor Enlightened with bows: Holy mediocre bow attacks batman! These guys are the vanilla ice cream of a Tson army, yea it is ice cream and I like ice cream, but can I get some chocolate sauce on it?. They screen your fast moving HQs to move up and smite and charge, they put out some decent shooting attacks and cause a few wounds, then promptly get whittled down by any competent shooting attacks, and die. Hopefully they got your Daemon princes in position first. The problem is the shooting attack2 x St5 AP-1 D1 looks good on paper. But it is not enough shots to really worry hoards, the only -1 means that most marines are still saving on a 4+, and the D1 makes them not great against vehicles. Really if the shooting attack was 3 x St4 AP -1 D1 attacks I think that these guys would go from meh, to yeah. In 8th edition, shooting attacks need to either have lots and lots of shoots, or do big damage if they wound. Shooting in the middle (which includes reaper auto cannons, heavy bolters etc.) just don't cut it under 8th mechanics.
The only heavy's I have used are the Maulerfiend and LC Predator. I don't like the Maulerfiend. I only have one, so that may be the problem, but it has not gotten into combat yet. It is just to fragile, and the lack of a shooting attack really hinders it. Plus my meta has lots of Flyer units with Supersonic, which it cannot even do anything about. The LC predator is what it is. It is like one of the only three ways we can get any really AT Las Cannon shooting, but it is not really special to Tsons. I have also used the Helldrake, and it is really bad. It is not good at killing anything as it doesn't have enough attacks to threaten infantry, and as its close combat attack is only St7 and is only -1 AP it has trouble getting wounds through on vehicles. It doesn't even get -1 to hit.
Those are all really good points. A mutalith vortex beast can help make maulerfiends better, same with making helldrakes pretty nasty bumping it up to ap-2 in combat.
I also have to agree with the tzaangors, pistols are not worth it. Make them choppy and let them have fun.
I am thinking of taking a big block of rubrics to deal with my buds firewarrior line. He uses some combo to get them up to 42" with their basic guns, with 3 shots at like 21". I feel rubrics can shrug off most the firepower and make them pay, deep striking them t2. Scarab occult may be an easier to use option though, smaller footprint and just as much firepower.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Those are all really good points. A mutalith vortex beast can help make maulerfiends better, same with making helldrakes pretty nasty bumping it up to ap-2 in combat.
I also have to agree with the tzaangors, pistols are not worth it. Make them choppy and let them have fun.
I am thinking of taking a big block of rubrics to deal with my buds firewarrior line. He uses some combo to get them up to 42" with their basic guns, with 3 shots at like 21". I feel rubrics can shrug off most the firepower and make them pay, deep striking them t2. Scarab occult may be an easier to use option though, smaller footprint and just as much firepower.
Does mutalith vortex beast worth it?
I have bunch of tzaangors but MVB is only 5++ 14W and if i want to rely on buffs i need 2. And it's already 300 pts, it looks like it's easier just bring 30 more bare tzaangors :/
Your looking at the mutalith wrong. If your plan is to use it to just buff tzaangors then yeah, not worth it. But its also a great distraction unit and can put out a sick number of mortal wounds, especially if your opponent drops it below 7 wounds.
One tournament game i took it and it did amazing. My last game was tsons vs tsons, 1500 pts each. I ran it forward turn 1 with my tzaangors being teleported up using dark matter crystal, my deamon prince warlord with eatherstride flying up, and my rhino driving up popping smoke with 10 rubrics in it. The tzaangors and dp made it into cc, the tzaangors tying up a squad of 5 rubrics on a flank and the dp murdering a squad of 5 rubrics in cc.
This left my mutalith to fire off its mortal wound cannon on a 3rd squad of rubrics dropping them by 2.
My opponent saw the danger of the mutalith, but had to kill the dp first. He did do that (as planned bwa hahaha) and then tried to kill the mutalith but only dropped it to 6 wounds.
My 2nd turn my mutalith moved up, rubrics jumped out and took up protective position around the mutalith, and i used the 18 blast of mortal wounds. Due to positioning of everything that blast killed 4 enemy rubrics (1 from 4 different squads) and put a wound onto his deamon prince and arhiman. Thats 8 mortal wounds put out within 2 turns, and with it protected by the rubrics infront of it and my other shooting / units working forward the enemy was already half dead at this point. He tried to kill the mutalith at this point but between glamor and weaver of fates couldnt do it, it sat at 2 wounds left, and he surrendered as next turn all his rubrics would have been dead and i had only lost my warlord, a 5 man rubric squad, and half my tzaangors (which finished his squad in cc and would have been charging the dp next).
My long winded point was he thought the mutalith was there for tzaangor boosting but i used it as a distraction and mortal wound engine. It is more than just a booster, it can hold its own in cc against most things other than dedicated cc units, and its fast enough to get where you want it thanks to advancing not stopping its ability to work because its not a shooting attack. If you make your opponent focus on something else (Dp with wings, eatherstride, and warptime!) It will at most take some shots to weaken it making it stronger or just get ignored so again it lives until t2 OR they will focus fire on it and ignore the DP (which at that point is amazing good for you because a deamon prince with 4++ saves and incredible speed and cc ability being ignored is handing you that area of the board).
Great write up xeen, I tend to agree with what you've said. I too forget smite is where it's at. I have good news for you: Doombolt was dropped to WC8 in the FAQ, so Ahriman gets it off on a 7 - much more reliable.
I also want to bring the word and testify! I'm now of the opinion that 33pts saved for a Spawn is a great investment, as it can change the game. In my recent game I hit my opponent's captain with doombolt and followed it up with a bolt of change. The all-new and improved gribbly-captain spawned into CC with his LT and hellblasters, avoiding overwatch and shutting down a big threat. Plus, well, c'mon. If you don't want to transmogrify a hated lapdog of the emperor into a mindbending abomination, and then watch as he devours his own horrified brothers, then you aint no Thousand Son. 10/10 would hatefully pour the elemental power of the warp into a smug bossy marine again.
grouchoben wrote: Great write up xeen, I tend to agree with what you've said. I too forget smite is where it's at. I have good news for you: Doombolt was dropped to WC8 in the FAQ, so Ahriman gets it off on a 7 - much more reliable.
I also want to bring the word and testify! I'm now of the opinion that 33pts saved for a Spawn is a great investment, as it can change the game. In my recent game I hit my opponent's captain with doombolt and followed it up with a bolt of change. The all-new and improved gribbly-captain spawned into CC with his LT and hellblasters, avoiding overwatch and shutting down a big threat. Plus, well, c'mon. If you don't want to transmogrify a hated lapdog of the emperor into a mindbending abomination, and then watch as he devours his own horrified brothers, then you aint no Thousand Son. 10/10 would hatefully pour the elemental power of the warp into a smug bossy marine again.
Unfortunately, it only changed bolt of change to an 8, not doom bolt
I always keep 33 pts for the random chaos spaw . Just the threat can make the opponent change things up a bit. Though i thought it spawned at least an 1 away from the enemy, not into auto cc. I will have to look at it again.
Azuza, doombolt and gift of chaos both specify that the spawn must be set up within 1" of the slain character, but does not specify past that. Since a spawn has a 50mm base, within 1" is actually about 3" from the character's base, which means you can very often place the spawn within 1" of another unit, especially if that character was a buffer.
I just looked at DMC wording again with that link, and I have a question. It says "bearer or unit of Thousand Sons Infantry". The bearer part doesn't seem to have the infantry wording, so if a DP brings it can he use it?
Page 6 in the rulebook errata states, that units using DMC, GoI, da jump etc. count as having moved for the purposes of shooting and they should be treated as arriving as reinforcements. With the intend to give heavy weapons the -1 penalty.
My guess is, they just are not aware of that (older) paragraph.
The stupid thing about it is, that you should be allowed to do neither.
Since its common to allow DMC etc. turn one it's ok but I can imagine they will at least forbid warptime etc. afterwards to prevent autocharges.
I would at least talk about it with your opponent before you drop that 30 Tzaangors on front of him.
It's one thing to use a rule that per wording is not correct but ''officially'' allowed - but it's another to simply use that as argument to use another one. I'm sure they will nerf it as soon as they realise what they have done.
Another question, what are your favourite / most effective tools to deal with Mortarion?
Smite, Dakka and chip off some last wounds with a buffed DP?
Grotrebel wrote: Page 6 in the rulebook errata states, that units using DMC, GoI, da jump etc. count as having moved for the purposes of shooting and they should be treated as arriving as reinforcements. With the intend to give heavy weapons the -1 penalty.
My guess is, they just are not aware of that (older) paragraph.
The stupid thing about it is, that you should be allowed to do neither.
Since its common to allow DMC etc. turn one it's ok but I can imagine they will at least forbid warptime etc. afterwards to prevent autocharges.
I would at least talk about it with your opponent before you drop that 30 Tzaangors on front of him.
It's one thing to use a rule that per wording is not correct but ''officially'' allowed - but it's another to simply use that as argument to use another one. I'm sure they will nerf it as soon as they realise what they have done.
Another question, what are your favourite / most effective tools to deal with Mortarion?
Smite, Dakka and chip off some last wounds with a buffed DP?
I usually just enter a slug fest with him and beat that .little nerd into a nurgley mush.
But I also play World Eaters, so that's my counter to everything.
Defiler with twin laz set up to wound on 2's + deamon prince + rubric smite normally deals with my Mortarian issues. If i dont kill him i make him so weak that he becomes an easy target next turn. Granted my way relies a lot on powers going off and positioning, but he is such a big model it shouldn't be that hard to do.
wonder how a defiler with 2 laser shots can seriously threat Mortarion, also if you wound at 2+ he saves at 4++ and you still must hit him with just 2 shots. U need lot of lasers to deal with Mortarion, didn't take into account if he starts first and cast miasma on himself.
Mortal wounds and a high invuln CC threat are the way I deal with a bully unit like Mortarian. I normally run a LoC, who loves to party with morty. Like xeen said, keep your casters bunched, offer him a good charge (he has to take it), and counter with all the smites, and a cabalist focussed death hex.
I said defiler + deamon prince + rubrics smiting. Defiler starts off putting a few wounds onto him (between laz cannona and battlecannon), rubrics and dp follow up with mortal wounds from smite / infernal gaze / whatever, then dp charges in to either finish the job or make it so morty isnt a serious threat anymore thanks to diabolic strength and talons being such a nice combo.
Any thoughts on how to best run a contemptor dread with 1Ksons? Is it better to double up on weapons, or can a dual role work? I was thinking of running mine with a butcher cannon and claw w/ soul burner so it can lay down some damage from a distance and push forward to charge if needed
remember Mortarion can dispel 3 powers no one grant you all your smites/mortal wounds get off and FNP sure will stop some wounds, rubric sorcerer deliver just 1 mortal wound with smite, if Dp doesn't kill him you usually lost the Dp.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
YoungSolomon wrote: Any thoughts on how to best run a contemptor dread with 1Ksons? Is it better to double up on weapons, or can a dual role work? I was thinking of running mine with a butcher cannon and claw w/ soul burner so it can lay down some damage from a distance and push forward to charge if needed
You should have at least 10 casts in a 1kSons army, 3 of them +1 from Ahriman, maybe a few more from high magister, a gaze of fate reroll and cabalistic focus. I also have 2 +2s from my LoC, so if you lose a psyker battle against mortarian you've had catastrophic luck. It happens. But he should always be down a bracket when you go to execute him in cc or with guns if your death hex went off. I appreciate the guys is tough as nails tho!
grouchoben wrote: You should have at least 10 casts in a 1kSons army, 3 of them +1 from Ahriman, maybe a few more from high magister, a gaze of fate reroll and cabalistic focus. I also have 2 +2s from my LoC, so if you lose a psyker battle against mortarian you've had catastrophic luck. It happens. But he should always be down a bracket when you go to execute him in cc or with guns if your death hex went off. I appreciate the guys is tough as nails tho!
if Mortarion player is so idiot to put him in front of all your smite/mortal wounds, well then he deserve, i dont play fanta warhammer i assume my opponent is competent with his list. Nedless to say if you invest all your army to remove Mortarion well good luck then, 95% of games are win by objectives, btw i talk about real things on table not fantasy warhammer.
Alright mate. I'm just saying, Morty has to CC you to be worth a damn. Most of my casters have 12" move. If Morty wants to divin on my wing and attack some rubrics, more power to him. Maybe it's the right play. But if he comes into the middle of the board he enters a psychic killbox that will mess him up in two rounds. That's all.
BoomWolf wrote: So, adding some big guns as an "allied" force, "spire guard" renegades?
A single Rouge psyker coven seems ok, 15 wounds with 5++ for 100 points isn't all that bad, and they can do some neat tricks (like supercharging a crucial deny attempt), and it opens the path for some serious firepower with vanguard/spearhead/outrider detachments.
Any opinions on the worth of some heavy guns to bring in?
Basilisks? medusas? sentinals? heavy weapon teams?
Or even, RUSSES?!
Anything sounds valuable for us? anyone has any experience fielding allied renegades?
More Spells, cheap (inaccurate) plasma, cheap (inaccurate) heavy weapons, cheap CP source, good at overwatch (+1 to hit).
I have been thinking about adding some Mortar squads as cheap back line objective holders.
EDIT: I am assuming your going to take the Tzeentch covenant.
If the unit starts on the table t1 then you can use dmc and move it t1 into your opponents zone. If it starts the turn off the table then it is subject to the beta rules.
What powers should I use for my Supreme Command Detachment.
It consists of:.
Ahriman
DP DP with Wings
Magnus
A Death Guard DP with Wings and 3 Bloat Drones move up the field with Magnus and the 1KS flying DP while Ahriman and the other DP serve as mid field support.
Should I go all defensive powers on Magnus amd the flying 1KS DP with Diabolic Strength and Gaze of Tzeentch?
Ahriman could then get Death Hex, Doom Bolt and Prescience. The last DP I am unsure about.
Hey all - I'm planning a list with 13 casters in it.
Playing TS hurts my head at the best of times. So to save myself from an aneurysm does anyone have any interesting/creative ways of keeping track of their psychic powers other than just writing it down?
Patch wrote: Hey all - I'm planning a list with 13 casters in it.
Playing TS hurts my head at the best of times. So to save myself from an aneurysm does anyone have any interesting/creative ways of keeping track of their psychic powers other than just writing it down?
I used Warmachine tokens upon which I wrote the name of all the powers with a permanent marker. I put the tokens near the casters at the beginning of a Psychic phase and spread them around when they've been cast (or put them aside if the cast failed).
I use a cheat sheet with a power's stats - WC, damage, range, etc, on it, and write each caster's name next to each power. Lets me see on one page all my powers, their stats, who has them, and whether I'm missing a vital power. I also cross the names off the sheet as they die, so I can track how it impacts my psychic phase.
But yeah, Thousand Sons are crying out for a good dashboard.
I create an index card with all my spells for each caster for each game. At tournaments I bring 5-6 of these so I can re-assign as need be. I use this in my psychic phase to keep track, also good to show opponent if they ask.
Has anyone tried the block of 30 Cultists with autoguns for TS? I now we don't have tide of traitors or the slannesh shoot twice, but we can drop them in via Webway infiltration, so I am wondering if anyone has tried this? The block of pink horrors works really well coming out of deepstrike, so the cultists might as well.
xeen wrote: Has anyone tried the block of 30 Cultists with autoguns for TS? I now we don't have tide of traitors or the slannesh shoot twice, but we can drop them in via Webway infiltration, so I am wondering if anyone has tried this? The block of pink horrors works really well coming out of deepstrike, so the cultists might as well.
I find using them without infiltration is still really nice. Give them an invuln save and +1 to hit, and they become WELL over their ppm in value.
xeen wrote: Has anyone tried the block of 30 Cultists with autoguns for TS? I now we don't have tide of traitors or the slannesh shoot twice, but we can drop them in via Webway infiltration, so I am wondering if anyone has tried this? The block of pink horrors works really well coming out of deepstrike, so the cultists might as well.
yes but... horrors gets 90 shots not 60 they have str 4 and +1 to wound cultists str 3 and they must spend a stratagem to have +1 to wound, cultists are pretty fragile with their 6+ save (if needed horrors can get a 3++ makes them pretty hard to dislodge), so no they cant perfom ever closer to 30 pink horrors
You gotta use a 78 point Herald to make them str 4, you get almost twice the bodies (4 ppm vs 7 ppm) and your only source of rerolls are a 150+ Daemon Prince who SHOULD NOT be sat babysitting pinks. Cultists in general have way better synergy. Also, those 90 shots vs 60 is also comparing a 210 point unit to an 120 point unit. Your argument is hilariously invalid.
If you want to compare point for point, you get 52 cultists for 208 points. Thats 104 shots and 22 more bodies.
if you think so then welcome to use ts cultists.
ps: he was talking about 30 cultists not 52 btw go take a look at Ts lists at major events, they play tzaangors or blob of pinks where are all those amazing cultists?
Large blob of cultists are strong in vanilla chaos cause tide of traitors and the fact you can make them fearless, you can have 40 bodies but if i kill just 19 (pretty easy to do) and make you test then they poof....unless you want spend 2cp's on cultists to make them autopass morale.
Btw talk in forum is a thing play serious competitions is another,regards
The idea is to have the cultists and Gors in reserve with the pink horrors and herald. Then use the DMC on the Rubrics turn one. I will put the princes, Ahriman, Shaman behind the Skyfires on a flank, the flamers more in the middle and the blues screen and/or objective camp. Hopefully on turn one the enemy will be concentrating on the flamers as they are very deadlie and my rubics being in their face, then turn two the rest arrives and hopefully the Skyfires did their job and screened long enough to get the princes in the enemy lines. This tactic took a hit today as the daemon stratagem can no longer give the flamers 3++ which sucks, but I still think this can work. Also the idea is to have no large vehicles so any points spend on AT by the opponent is basically wasted.
This list is not really "competitive" per se, I think a BA+IG+KN will still beat it, but I think it will do well against most mid-range lists. Also keep in mind this list is based on what models I own.
I am with vaklor4. You cant just compare max size unit 1 vs max size unit 2 and completly disregard the cost of each unit. 30 pinks are very good, having an effective 45 wounds you have to shoot through assuming average rolls and none lost to moral. But you get 52 cultists for that same value, and assuming a few saves are made once in a while you probably have 60+ wounds to deal with all things equal.
Now, taking the offesive capabilities into account a las gun vs pink horrors the horrors win out. They get 2 shots at 18, cultists need to get to 12 to get 2 shots. Horrors can also be boosted a number of ways to get to a theoretical str 5. That can be big.
Where did tzaangors come in? I thought we were talking pinks vs cultists.
Tzaangors are much harder to value. They get a max squad of 20, they have the same gun if your silly enough to run them that way, but their real strength comes in cc vs charecters. Personally i go tzaangors then pinks, i dont bother with cultists. But they do have value in some lists.
8+ charge isn't hard to do. Between 'Gaze of Fate' and Command Point reroll it should be easy. Its one of the few charges that shouldn't be an issue in this game after all of these FAQ updates.
Azuza001 wrote: Where did tzaangors come in? I thought we were talking pinks vs cultists.
Tzaangors are much harder to value. They get a max squad of 20, they have the same gun if your silly enough to run them that way, but their real strength comes in cc vs charecters. Personally i go tzaangors then pinks, i dont bother with cultists. But they do have value in some lists.
Nope, 20 squads. Cultists also have the ability to get an easy 5++ invuln from a psyker, and they cover a LOT more area for melee denial than Tzaanboys.
vaklor4 wrote: Nope, 20 squads. Cultists also have the ability to get an easy 5++ invuln from a psyker, and they cover a LOT more area for melee denial than Tzaanboys.
vaklor4 wrote: Nope, 20 squads. Cultists also have the ability to get an easy 5++ invuln from a psyker, and they cover a LOT more area for melee denial than Tzaanboys.
Read your book again pal, you're flat out wrong.
My mistake! Just double checked my book. I don't ever see them played locally, as we only have two T-sons players, and only one of them even runs Tzaangors, and usually its in squads of 20.
So, using DMC on a Tzaangor blob. 220 points for the 30 man squad.
My issue with this, is that if i know it is coming, i can often screen and sacrifice a unit or 2 for it not to be an issue.
It is part of the reason why i've started looking at using a big squad of Terminators to do the job instead, as their shooting can more than make up for the initial difference, and they can still have a reasonable chance at a charge using gaze of fate and a cp re-roll. They can also be a complete wall and pita to remove.
Screens are going to definitely be more of a thing, competitively, after this FAQ. Denying FLY charges is huge and it allows you to open up so many gaps in your own line if you know that things just can't get into them turn 1. Sure, 1 blob can wipe out 2 or 3 screening units straight away, but what happens then? Especially if those screens are a good 9-12" in front of the main army threat?
Personally, i'd rather have something with a bit more options going forward, whilst having a couple of cheap cultist units for my own turn 1 screens.
Turn 1 assaults need to be absolutely devastating now, and backed up by the rest of your army being in a position to capitalise straight after. I genuinely don't think a Tgor blob will give you that anymore - especially if the rest of your force is relying on smite spam behind a something like a Pink horror blob.
Imperium Soup isn't going to change much after the FAQ - at most you'll see the BA dropped out and additional Knights or Guard put in. If you can't get the the Castellan or other big threats then it doesn't matter how many Guard squads you kill turn 1 with smite and Tgor charges.
To those who have used the Helm of the Third Eye, how useful was it? I think the FAQ limits it now to gaining 1 CP per turn, now,but has the 5+ to gain a CP been a decent return for the relic?
is +1cp per round btw... i think it is still useful, usually you didn't get more than 1 pt per round before FAQ as well, at 5+u get back average 1 pt every 3 stratagems used by opponent.
It's still great if the opponent has 12-15 CP to start, because you'll get 2-3 on average. Against opponents with 9 or less I won't take it as the second relic, you are likely to only get enough back to pay for it.
Also keep in mind if you place him on the table first, any deployment stratagems (Screaming jetc, deep strike etc) you can gain multiple pregame.
If you have the slot to fill, 1cp to take the helm is worth it. 3cp is not. So if your running deamons that need a demonic relic (typically deamon princes) then i dont normally take it. If i am running mostly tsons with some deamons on the side (pinks, bloodletters, deamonettes, flamers.... the small stuff) then i do.
The FAQ was targeted at and predominantly affects armies with multiple sources of CP generation (read: Imperial Guard, and all the factions sucking on its CP-rich teat). Factions with just one source were already unlikely to get more than one per round without high rolls.
Yeah but the faq damaged the cp regen, it did nothing to stop the battery from starting at such a high point to start with.
I think the real issue is the player base and gw are at odds at how many factions there really are in the game. Gw says 7 (Imperial, Chaos, Tau, Necron, Orks, Eldar, Tyranids) and we say each sub part is its own army (Its not chaos, its Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Chaos Marines, and Chaos Deamons).
Once you get your head around this armies look different, but many gaming groups look down upon you if you play that way. (Your souping, not playing Thousand Sons!)
I soup, and I soup whole heartedly. But I also try to soup fluffy. If I bring T-sons, I soup in Tzeentch Daemons or CSM, I don't bring just Khorne Daemons. In reverse, i'll do the same with my world eaters, where if I don't bring T-sons, they sure as heck aren't bringing in Tzeentch Daemons instead of Khorne Daemons.
Of course, neither are particularly amazing in a tournament setting, but that's not exactly the point for a guy who strictly plays casual games at his own house or at the local store.
Guys, I'm completely lost with all those FAQs and Beta rules...
Can we use Warptime on a unit that was teleported with the Dark Matter Crystal ?? (if yes, can you point me to the FAQ that says so or explain clearly why we can ?)
Nym wrote: Guys, I'm completely lost with all those FAQs and Beta rules...
Can we use Warptime on a unit that was teleported with the Dark Matter Crystal ?? (if yes, can you point me to the FAQ that says so or explain clearly why we can ?)
The new beta rules didn't change anything in regards to the previous FAQ statements that preventing you from doing it.
So, no, you still can't warptime a unit that enters the battlefield in the same turn (DMC counts as leaving and re-entering the battlefield).
So what is everyones thoughts on Magnus? With all the big knights in the meta does he get shot off the board first turn every game? Is he worth the points?
He seemed to show up in a couple (above average) lists in the 2018 Nova.
Ferrus126 wrote: So what is everyones thoughts on Magnus? With all the big knights in the meta does he get shot off the board first turn every game? Is he worth the points?
He seemed to show up in a couple (above average) lists in the 2018 Nova.
Thanks!
He was slightly better than he will be now after this FAQ.
He still suffers from the high chance of getting shot off the table turn 1, but, he will now start every game with a 2+ armour save if he isn’t going first (though this only matters for 0 or -1 ap weapons).
However, fly took a big hit. He isn’t charging the big scary things turn 1 anymore as he’ll likely just get screened out.
That said, his damage output is still fantastic, and not every game is going to have a Knight you need to charge.
All in all, I think it is still a personal preference, he just got a little harder to use.
What do you think about Renegade Knight with 2 Thermal canons as a heavy support for TS army?
I have Magnus and thunking about this list: tzangors, 2xDP, Ahriman, Magnus, Knight.
I feel like i need some heavy shooting so options are Knight or 3xPreds
I personally feel we dont have an issue with our shooting for anti tank, we have a lot of tools in the bag to use as is.
Personally i like a defiler w/ twin laz cannon and 3 predators. Defiler works as a charge deterrent (no one wants to charge these guys so that helps) and can be very effective with a spell or two or a stratagem (hitting on 4's rerolling all is pretty effective, and flickering flames makes it wound on 2's, whats not to love?).
Add those 3 preds in (pred autocannons and side las are what i take) and you have a very strong fire base.
Down sides though are cost (very expensive when you add a sorcerer in for casting) and if you run up against a list designed to kill knights (and many are now days) they will cut through all of that pretty quickly.
LOCUS OF CONJURATION
Tzeentch Daemons Stratagem
Sorcerous power surrounds Tzeentch’s chosen champions.
Use this Stratagem at the start of your Psychic phase. Select a TZEENTCH DAEMON CHARACTER from your
army – until the end of the phase you can re-roll any failed Psychic tests made for friendly TZEENTCH DAEMON units
within 6" of that model.
Question: Does it work for TSDPs? I have Daemons detachment so can for example Changeling use this one and give reroll to TSDPs?
Terminators did a couple of wounds, Rhino and Rubrics hardly did anything. He killed my warlord in the fight phase. His turn saw him kill one squad of Rubrics and that was it.
