"Beta Rules Changes" are currently on preview on the Warhammer Community Site. The rules are being tested at Adepticon and LVO. I still need to read and process them all myself.
Smite changes: "With the exception of smite, each psychic power can be attempted only once per turn, rather than once per psyker per turn. In addition, subtract 1 from the result of any psychic test taken when attempting to manifest smite for each other attempt (whether successful or not) that has been made to manifest smite during this psychic phase. For example, if a psyker attempts to manifest smite during a psychic phase in which two other psykers have already attempted to manifest smite, then you would subtract 2 from the result of the psychic test."
Yeah, the Aspiring Sorcerer is now a completely useless model. This is exactly what I feared would happen, GW throwing the baby out with the bathwater on the smite issue.
Funny thoughts aside anyone else getting the feeling tsons are going to be the weak link when the codex drops and we don't look as good as the other options?
Eh it’s baby smite anyway with a risk of blowing up your squad as you auto die on perils. Good riddance to a suicide bomb.
Plus smite spam was hardly fun to play against, glad it’s gone.
I’m new to thousand sons (my usual tournament army is tyranids which I’ve been doing very well with) but am seeing value in tzaangors, the rubrics are overpriced but dangerous. Liking a couple of flamer squads sharing a rhino so far.
Scarab occult I think need some finesse, they are not a battering ram and need treating differently. Not even put my magnus on the table yet, not convinced what thousand sons need is a really expensive bullet magnet.
Got some more games coming up and a tournament I’ll be taking the thousand sons to in January so I’ll keep you posted.
Sneggy wrote: Not even put my magnus on the table yet, not convinced what thousand sons need is a really expensive bullet magnet.
Got some more games coming up and a tournament I’ll be taking the thousand sons to in January so I’ll keep you posted.
Magnus is great as long as he doesn't get blown off the table turn one. Once he's got weavers of fate up there is no easy way of killing him, we will gobble up most things in assault and the super smite is just crazy good. He's also not at all expensive for what you get. Give him a go and your unlikely to be disappointed.
Sneggy wrote: Not even put my magnus on the table yet, not convinced what thousand sons need is a really expensive bullet magnet.
Got some more games coming up and a tournament I’ll be taking the thousand sons to in January so I’ll keep you posted.
Magnus is great as long as he doesn't get blown off the table turn one. Once he's got weavers of fate up there is no easy way of killing him, we will gobble up most things in assault and the super smite is just crazy good. He's also not at all expensive for what you get. Give him a go and your unlikely to be disappointed.
Pretty sure everyone is aware how insane Magnus is, considering he's in virtually every chaos army nowadays.
nintura wrote: plus in a pure 1k sons list, he's your best anti armor.
Assuming you can actually get him past the screen. A pure Thousand Sons list has no Changeling, which means he's far more vulnerable than he is in the Chaos Soup lists where he's been showing up in tournaments. He will often times die on turn one or two, before you can chew through the screens enough to get his massive base into contact with the enemy vehicles.
obviously Magnus is good in other chaos armies. Other chaos armies have chaff, cheap and dangerous deep striking units, other big targets etc.
Thousand sons have expensive, survivable units. Which win by attrition.
Do I want to spend 1/5th of my army on a big red dude who likely takes every heavy weapon turn one and dies? Maybe not. When your army has 100 expendable brims, changeling, drop oblits and a bunch of daemon princes hes viable. I'm not convinced he isn't actually detrimental to pure thousand sons.
All theory but will do some testing.
Tuluth wrote: "Beta Rules Changes" are currently on preview on the Warhammer Community Site. The rules are being tested at Adepticon and LVO. I still need to read and process them all myself.
Smite changes: "With the exception of smite, each psychic power can be attempted only once per turn, rather than once per psyker per turn. In addition, subtract 1 from the result of any psychic test taken when attempting to manifest smite for each other attempt (whether successful or not) that has been made to manifest smite during this psychic phase. For example, if a psyker attempts to manifest smite during a psychic phase in which two other psykers have already attempted to manifest smite, then you would subtract 2 from the result of the psychic test."
I'm just going to assume/hope they have a solution for the armies that are intended to have a lot of psykers. Obviously Craftworld Eldar don't have a problem with this already because they get 18 fething spells; we'll see when the Daemons Codex comes out if Tzeentch has a solution, and if so we can readily assume that Thousand Sons will have one as well.
I’m actually thinking that these beta rules are taking the upcoming Codex: Daemons of Chaos into count. Since LVO is 26-28 January, and the new codex is supposed to be dropping in January... I am hoping for a large spell lore for booth Tzeentch Daemons and TS though, similar to what they gave Disciples of Tzeentch in AoS. Spell page for Daemons and another for mortals. I could see something similar being put into place for TS.
I wonder if our legion trait won't focus on the invuln save as it seems most of our stuff has already ie: Magnus rerolling ones, Ahriman, exalteds etc. maybe we'll get a +1 like tzeentch demons? That would be pretty solid overall. But is that asking for too much haha
So, question for the forum. In a pure TS list, what do people typically use as objective campers at the 1000 and 2000 point range?
In my pickup games (around 50PL since that's what we use at my FLGS for those) I've found my Rubrics typically get stuck on objectives on the back end of the field. Seems like too expensive of a unit to have standing around not doing much.
Was looking at the forge world units, what do you think of the Hellforged Contemptor dread and the Decimator, was thinking of using a couple of them with Magnus maybe trying to get the opponent to divert fire from Magnus onto them, that and i like the Butcher Cannon.
The difference that i can see really between the 2 is that the Decimator works really well with the changeling and is guaranteed a wound back each turn and is about 30 points cheaper after weapons
And the Contemptor has a better profile, better at shooting and combat (at least until wounded and particularly whilst in Magnus's buff) and more weapon choice (such as the soulburner instead of hellflamer in it fist), but only has a chance to gain wounds back after it kills in combat and it cant be used with the changeling (and this seems like the best thing to use the Osiron dread as for now at least).
Do you guys think either would work well in a 1ksons list of mostly rubric, scarab occult and tzeentch deamons?
Tuluth wrote: So, question for the forum. In a pure TS list, what do people typically use as objective campers at the 1000 and 2000 point range?
In my pickup games (around 50PL since that's what we use at my FLGS for those) I've found my Rubrics typically get stuck on objectives on the back end of the field. Seems like too expensive of a unit to have standing around not doing much.
I use 5-men Rubric Squads to camp mid-field objectives (just 5 guys with bolters and Soulreaper).
They're quite tough if you stick to cover and have OK-ish firepower. They're more resistant than cultists to Moral but less to multi-damage and high AP weapons (wish we had Ephemeral form equivalent...).
For backfield objectives I use Cultists, Tzaangors and in january, probably Brimstones.
I'm starting up TS, and I really want to make it a pure TS army. Here is the list I'm working on, for a 1700 tournament with no twinsies beside troops, and single mandatory battalion detachement. What do you guys think? Also, can I use CSM stratagems with this list? Thanks.
Based on my experience, the prince and brute are questionable.
The brute is the simple answer, it just gets singled out if he's alone, and gets taken down before he gets anything done.
The prince, is slightly more complicated.
The issue is, we are not really an "all in your face" kind of army too much, so the prince is stuck in a limbo of wanting to charge in, but the moment he does, he is alone and isolated leading to a quick death.
His aura is not enough to justify the price, his melee is is good but not when he's out there on his own, and his speed is rather pointless when nobody else is catching up with him.
On another note, most everyone agrees that we can use the soulreaper price in the CSM codex, making each of your squads 5 points cheaper.
You make valid points on the Prince. I do want it for his aura, and I didn't even think too much about diving in with him. I was gonna use it as counter offensive in case I'm fighting a close range army. But in that case, I don't really need the wings, and can at least save up on that if not scrap him altogether.
As for the hellbrute, it's kind of the same issue with its gauntlet I guess, but I was mostly taking it for the twin lascan.
Both are good if you use warptime. My Thousand Sons has been successful because I dont run pure Thousand Sons and it's melee based instead of shooting. Deep striking termies, 30 man strong Tzaangor, Melee Brute, Heldrake, Daemon Prince. Just rush the enemy and put too many things in their face they need to shoot.
Melee based lists seems interesting, especially if you want to include Magnus. Right now I'm more interesting in making work the Rubric Marines, and build a more conventional "moving forward" gunline, since it is for a tournament with a lot of restrictions.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: I feel that Rubrics are really overcosted and not competitive.
I'd say it depends what you want in your army. I don't like having tax troop, but I like having battalions. Rubrics are such strong troop choices that you don't feel like being taxed using them. I like that.
I think I overlooked the Scarabs Occult, and this is my revised list :
Haechi wrote: Melee based lists seems interesting, especially if you want to include Magnus. Right now I'm more interesting in making work the Rubric Marines, and build a more conventional "moving forward" gunline, since it is for a tournament with a lot of restrictions.
I agree and that's why I've shelved mine for now until we get a dex. I like the models I use, but it's not Fluffy and could easily just be a regular Chaos army.
I'm thinking about Defilers vs Predators.
Defilers are daemons so will get -1 to hit from changeling.
They also have more shooting than Predators but more expensive and hitting on 4s instead of Predators 3s.
Predators are cheaper but have less shooting and no melee potential in case of something charging you.
Both have reroll 1's to hit from TS Daemon Prince.
I personally think that 3xDefilers with autocanons and scourges will be better than 4xPredators (same points cost).
ArtyomTrityak wrote: I'm thinking about Defilers vs Predators.
Defilers are daemons so will get -1 to hit from changeling.
They also have more shooting than Predators but more expensive and hitting on 4s instead of Predators 3s.
Predators are cheaper but have less shooting and no melee potential in case of something charging you.
Both have reroll 1's to hit from TS Daemon Prince.
I personally think that 3xDefilers with autocanons and scourges will be better than 4xPredators (same points cost).
Your thoughts?
I'm really not fond of the Defiler's weapon options. I like the Forgefiend a lot as an alternative to Predators.
I'm really not fond of the Defiler's weapon options. I like the Forgefiend a lot as an alternative to Predators.
Compared all possible options:
Predators (3):
For 390pts we get 48' 6d3 3dmg shots ~ 6 shots ~ 4 hits = 4x3 = 12dmg
Defiler's (2):
For 360pts we get 2d6 d3 dmg shots + 8 1dmg shots = 3 hits d3 + 4 hits 1dmg = 10dmg
Forgefiend (2):
For 390 pts we get 2d3 d3 dmg + 8 shots 2dmg = 2 hits d3dmg + 4 hits 2dmg = 12dmg
That's raw calculations with DP aura reroll 1's. So for same price we can get 3 Predators which average do 12dmg and have total 36 wounds or 2 Forgefiends which do same amount of damage and have 24 wounds but have 5 daemon save.
Defilers do less shooting damage but have great melee potential for counter-charge, have 28 wounds and cost less than other 2 options.
So that's really hard choice - i think for raw damage output and wounds i would pick Predators BUT i have Changeling so Defilers / Forgefiends will get their -1 to hit from it.
Yes, i can run Predators as Alpha Legion and get same but we're here TS right?
So personally i think i would run Defilers because of their melee potential and okay shooting.
Predators good for gunline shooting and need to be wrapped with horros to prevent deep strike + charge. Defilers do MUCH more in melee and charging them might be really really bad idea.
Nature's Minister wrote: I'm pretty much brand new to the game, so if y'all wouldn't mind telling me the reasons why my list is terrible, I'd sure appreciate it.
Your list is okay, i pretty much run same list but with Ahriman instead of second DP and more horrors. You should have possibility to grab and hold objectives.
I think that terminators are too expensive and do nothing for their points (for my games). I usually run 1 unit of 5 with sorcerer in terminator armor so he can deep strike with them and warp time them into 2' charge
Just to chime in and interrupt your list advice (sorry!). The Changeling is apparently being changed (hah!) from giving a -1 to hit to a 6+++. I think I'm disappointed in the change, but I'm not sure.
That's raw calculations with DP aura reroll 1's. So for same price we can get 3 Predators which average do 12dmg and have total 36 wounds or 2 Forgefiends which do same amount of damage and have 24 wounds but have 5 daemon save.
You should also consider the possibility of having prescience casted on them by that same DP!
@Nature Minister's you should considering removing the two Soulreaper cannons on the termis. Yes the stats are good, but so are their special combi bolters. And you'll free up a lot of point.
anticitizen013 wrote: Just to chime in and interrupt your list advice (sorry!). The Changeling is apparently being changed (hah!) from giving a -1 to hit to a 6+++. I think I'm disappointed in the change, but I'm not sure.
My list is pretty simple... The general idea is to have some threatening targets to hopefully detract from the allure of shooting Magnus in the face first turn. The change to the Changeling is a bummer, but should still add a bit of durability. The change to the Brimstones is a straight up nerf but honestly they are just there as a 30pt screen so really I can't complain.
The Decimators and the Fire Raptors stay in Magnus' aura to drastically improve their damage output (each Decimator puts out avg 8 MW before rerolls so they are pretty deadly). Terminators drop within 12" of the enemy but still in the aura to clear the enemy's screen and hopefully close to an objective.
Brimstones eat a charge with the Tzaangors there for counter attacking. Rubrics and sorcerers move up to hold an objective. With the potential changes to smite, their output is potentially reduced unfortunately. Although I tried to future proof this army by making it all Tsons and having a separate det of daemons as I expect that the "legion trait" will do something with the smite rules assuming they do indeed change them. Plus that gives me access to daemon strategems and whatnot which will still affect things like the Decimators and Magnus. Anyway, here is the list. I have been typing this on my phone so I apologize if the formatting is wrong or there are any other weird errors.
Looking at the new leaks, it seems horrors are undergoing the following changes:
-Brimstones nerfed to a 6++
-Blues nerfed to a 5++
-Pink guns (maybe) S:user
-Changeling now 6+++ (but, also gets a Locus if you have a Tzdaemon detachment)
On the flip side you have
-New Stratagem for 1CP allows you to improve a unit's invuln by 1 (unknown if they will have a tyranid-style restriction on their stratagems/stuff so that CSM daemons like Magnus can use it)
-new Locus allowing a possibility at an effective -1 to hit.
Basically everything tzdaemon besides brims, blues, and changeling is getting a buff of some sort. Exalted Flamers are the one I'm particularly excited for as a primarily Tson player as it is an anti-tank weapon and everything anti tank I like.
I think for my screen unit of horrors, I'm going to try and stick it out with Changeling as a buffer, hopefully his new locus makes up for the nerfed aura. I'm planning on running the unit with 20 pinks, 10 brims in the starting unit, with another 10 blues in Split points. Banner upgrade now that the cost has been reduced.
Pinks pop the new daemon stratagem for a 3++, they take the basic casualties. All Mortal Wounds/MOrale casualties go on the brims. Blues Split in to try and rope more units into melee with the screenblob.
Thoughts? A little more point intensive but I also think a little more tactically flexible than the usual brim min squads.
It's happening, boiz and gorlz, it's fething happening
Thanks to the new codex, you’ll be able to lead your Tzaangor into battle with the Tzaangor Shaman or support them with disc-riding Tzaangor Enlightened – perfect if you’ve been looking for an excuse to pick up these models for your Tzeentch army. For those of you willing to risk mutation or madness, you’ll also be able to enlist a massive Mutalith Vortex beast to your dazzling ensemble, further expanding the forces the Changer of Ways.
Tzaangor Shaman as a cheap HQ choice and Tzaangor Enlightened as a Fast Attack fills out the most glaring holes in our FOC. And the Mutalith is just a sexy model.
anticitizen013 wrote: Just to chime in and interrupt your list advice (sorry!). The Changeling is apparently being changed (hah!) from giving a -1 to hit to a 6+++. I think I'm disappointed in the change, but I'm not sure.
Ok, so here are the things we gain from the daemons by applying them to TS units.
1-DS magnus or disk ahriman seems like a good way to make use of both of them.
2-locus of conjuration, again via magnus or disk ahriman, just outclasses cabalistic focus so hard its not even funny. costs more, but easily nets over twice the value for guys who cast 3 spells, does not require to be next to other dudes and if you ARE, you are boosting them as well (and as long beta smite rules don't kick in, a rerollable mini-smite is very much worth casting for rubric/scarab. you are highly unlikely to peril if you act smart and only reroll perils, letting simple fails stay fails.)
3-You got a tzeentch psyker around (because why not?), flickering flame can trigger on daemon engines. flicker flame+daemonforge on a forgefiend/decimator/defiler will practically violate anything it points at.
I was in a state of flux for what army I wanted to focus on after painting a bunch of small ones (so my wife can learn). I already had a bunch of Tsons so when I got more for Christmas, that was the sign. Then the Daemons codex and now the actual Tsons codex is coming out... I am pretty damn sure I know what I'll be doing in the next few months!
Anyway I'm pretty pumped to see more Tzaangor units in 40k. I love their aesthetic and the whole Silver Tower/Planet of Sorcerers fluff. It will be good to have some cheaper alternatives in a Tsons force. Maybe I'll take our my Fire Raptor (although I have some really cool conversion/green stuff ideas for it whenever it arrives)... Only time will tell!
I'm really liking the synergy between units between the Tzeentch Daemons and Tsons. I think it will be very fluffy while still being fairly competitive (with the right combinations).
Now we have to do the worst thing ever... wait. :(
Yea, at this point actual "thousand sons" have 1 troop, 1 elite and 1 hq (beyond generic CSM stuff), while gors get 3 units of their own (or more, is enlightened are dual as skyfire its 4 gors), and a random super-spawn.
This is NOT thousand sons, this is "non-daemons of tzeentch"
Now, aside from the “must wait for codex to drop” standpoint, it’s also “wait and see if GW releases 40k Tzaangor Shaman and Enlightened, with a new weapon sprue.” I already have some from AoS, and while I’m not expecting an update on the Shaman, the Enlightened might get an upgrade sprue. I think I’d like to see the options of Enlightened, Skyfire, 40k weapon (all on disk or foot).
I am just surprised tsons is getting done before space wolves. I would have bet good money that wasn't going to happen.
And I am with you guys on tsons vs non-deamom tzeench. I don't have anything against tzaangors, they just don't belong in my tson army as a focused part. It would be like playing chaos space marines and using only deamons and deamon princes then saying it's a world eaters army. At some point it's fine, then there is a line that gets crossed and it's just not the same.
Having said that, a deamon detachment to go with my Tsons may go amazing now. I have been stock piling pink horrors and flamers for awhile now. This may just have gotten good.
I'm ecstatic that Tzaangors are getting more options for Tsons. While I can understand that people wanted more Rubric related models, you have to understand that Rubrics are few in number and are awkward to reconstitute. Makes sense to me that they'd flesh out their numbers with easy and cheap Tzaangors.
At this point I've accepted that fully elite armies are just straight up non-viable in 8th so I'm not going to besmirch GW offering us "cheap elite" units in the form of Tzaangors. A fully Rubric army just wouldn't work whether Tzaangors existed or not, the addition of the beastmen give us some good screening units that are less chaffy than cultists.
It really depends on their points drop - for now using horrors is MUCH better than Tzaangors. It's very easy to kill them and they cost much more than they do.
We will get something like deepstrike unit 9' away for 1/2 CP so they might become useful.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: It really depends on their points drop - for now using horrors is MUCH better than Tzaangors. It's very easy to kill them and they cost much more than they do.
We will get something like deepstrike unit 9' away for 1/2 CP so they might become useful.
Brimstone Horrors have a 6++ now so they're not as stupid as they were before. Tzaangors are already more durable than Cultists point for point (assuming the presence of the Exalted Sorcerer aura which you will obviously have).
What I'm hoping for is a tzaangor infiltration stratagem so we can take control of the middle of the board.
Arachnofiend wrote: At this point I've accepted that fully elite armies are just straight up non-viable in 8th so I'm not going to besmirch GW offering us "cheap elite" units in the form of Tzaangors. A fully Rubric army just wouldn't work whether Tzaangors existed or not, the addition of the beastmen give us some good screening units that are less chaffy than cultists.
Fully rubric can't work mainly because they lack support though.
If we had heavy-weapon rubric teams (full squads of soulreapers?), actual fast moving variation (why can't a rubric with a nasty two-handed weapon on a disk be a thing?), proper TS helbrutes, actual viable psykers (with non trash spells beyond warptime and prescience), buff auras, etc-they COULD work.
You obviously can't make the army work when you don't have any options for it, and basically all you've got is more of the same.
Brimstone Horrors have a 6++ now so they're not as stupid as they were before. Tzaangors are already more durable than Cultists point for point (assuming the presence of the Exalted Sorcerer aura which you will obviously have).
What I'm hoping for is a tzaangor infiltration stratagem so we can take control of the middle of the board.
5++ rerolling 1s is not enough imho. They're T4 so not so hard to kill.
With DS stratagem they might be more interesting but still to easy to wipe.
It's very hard to pick what army to collect now I have Tzeench army and TS. Love them both... argh...
Yeah, my tzaangor squad is 1 unit of tzaangors, 1 box of Kairic Acolytes, and I mix them together to form a 30 man tzaangor blo, with the idea that they're just warp-tainted, heavily mutated cultists, some more than others.
We now have almost as many Gor units as we do TS units...
Yeah this is BS.
Can't wait to see the overpriced points cost of these new units.
I'm actually fine with it. The Sons are supposed to be a devastated Legion that's a pale shadow of what it used to be in terms of numbers (as opposed to the Death Guard, who are every bit as numerous as they were during the Horus Heresy). It makes sense to me that they'd leverage Tzaangors and other gribblies like the Mutalith to bolster their numbers.
We now have almost as many Gor units as we do TS units...
Yeah this is BS.
Can't wait to see the overpriced points cost of these new units.
I'm actually fine with it. The Sons are supposed to be a devastated Legion that's a pale shadow of what it used to be in terms of numbers (as opposed to the Death Guard, who are every bit as numerous as they were during the Horus Heresy). It makes sense to me that they'd leverage Tzaangors and other gribblies like the Mutalith to bolster their numbers.
Ok, so let's run with that. Then how have they survived? Power? Because their models are not very powerful... their sorcs are not very powerful right now. As survivors, they dont have much of a way to showing it. Why havent anyone taken them out and stole their supplies?
Well, presumably the codex will adjust some of the point issues which plague them, as it did for DG. Think about how great it'll be if rubrics get the sort of price drop PM did.
Out of curiosity, how do people feel about tzaangors given the now confirmed incoming horror nerfs? Are they worth running at their current price, or do they need a point drop as well to be useful?
Honestly even with the nerf to Horrors, I'll be including them. 30 pts for a screen is still fantastic. Not to mention that they still have an inv save (despite it being worse, still better than nothing).
The addition of more Tzaangor units is excellent. It adds far more variety than just Rubrics with different weapons. Not only does it support the fluff, but it adds a different aspect. We will have some pretty cool flying units that no one else has access to. I wonder if we will see Spireguard in some form too. Unlikely, but maybe!
While I am hoping for a price decrease, I don't think we will see one. If we do, it will be very small. Just a feeling, I have nothing to base this on
As to how they have survived, I admit I'm a little hazy on the subject, but that might be the point. Here's a few references:
Spoiler:
Legion Recruitment
The XV Legion was initially created from Terran stock. After his genetic-sons of the XV Legion were reunited with their Primarch, Magnus the Red's pact with Tzeentch was sealed; only one in a thousand Battle-Brothers were spared from the further corruption of the Flesh-Change. Throughout the rest of the Great Crusade, the Legion recruited exclusively from Prospero, despite the fact that the isolated world possessed only a small population with low genetic diversity. Though new recruits were only culled for the Legion in small numbers, many of them were psychically gifted. This resulted in the Thousand Sons being a smaller Legion than was common amongst their fellow Astartes.
Currently it is unknown how the Legion is able to maintain its current strength. It was once observed that the Legion has performed what appeared to be some sort of resurrection ritual for a slain Thousand Son Astartes. This magical conjuration allowed the XV Legion's Chaos Sorcerers to summon the spirits of deceased Thousand Sons from the Warp so they could possess a mortal body. The Sorcerers were able to use either a living body or a deceased shell for the embodiment of the dead souls. It made no particular difference for the ritual which was used, as both were effective. These newly possessed bodies then transformed into reborn Thousand Sons Battle-Brothers, maintaining the always small numbers of the XV Legion even after their fall to Chaos.
(source: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Thousand_Sons)
Spoiler:
Like all of the Legiones Astartes the Thousand Sons were initially made up of Terran marines. In the aftermath of Magnus' deal with Tzeentch to save their lives, only around a thousand of them were left. For the rest of the Crusade, the Thousand Sons recruited from Prospero, a planet of only limited population (although many of them were psychically active). As a result the Thousand Sons were never a large legion.
How the Thousand Sons currently maintain their numbers is unknown, although they have been observed carrying out an apparent resurrection ritual at least once. On this occasion the spirits of deceased Thousand Sons were summoned from the warp into mortal bodies (whether living or dead making no particular difference), bodies which then transformed themselves into reborn Thousand Sons.
At least one Imperial commentator on the subject believes that the Thousand Sons have a cult network that provides potential recruits for the legion.
SilverAlien wrote: Well, presumably the codex will adjust some of the point issues which plague them, as it did for DG. Think about how great it'll be if rubrics get the sort of price drop PM did.
Out of curiosity, how do people feel about tzaangors given the now confirmed incoming horror nerfs? Are they worth running at their current price, or do they need a point drop as well to be useful?
And if Rubrics get a points drop, then every other marine will be complaining that theirs is overpriced in comparison
SilverAlien wrote: Well, presumably the codex will adjust some of the point issues which plague them, as it did for DG. Think about how great it'll be if rubrics get the sort of price drop PM did.
Out of curiosity, how do people feel about tzaangors given the now confirmed incoming horror nerfs? Are they worth running at their current price, or do they need a point drop as well to be useful?
And if Rubrics get a points drop, then every other marine will be complaining that theirs is overpriced in comparison
I mean that's because Space Marines are overpriced, but it's still pretty ridiculous that the Rubric body is more expensive than the Plague body.
I think the body goes down 1pt and the gun 1 pt as well. Paying 2 points for a bolter even one with -2 app is ridiculous. I also think the flamers should go down 3 or 4 points.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: There are some rumors that GW are going to FAQ Daemons deep strike stratagem - it will not allow to DS Magnus :\
Source?
I know there have been internet people complaining about it before it even happens, but other than that, nothing. It's a knee jerk reaction to something that seems OP on paper. Is it powerful? Sure is! Is it broken and needs to be nerfed? Doubt it. Nurglings, Space Marine Scouts, Eldar Rangers... and myriad other units in pretty much every army have a way to counter DS units.
But it could happen by a simple "this does not work on units with the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword". Only time will tell. In the meantime, once the codex is released, you have minimum 2 weeks of deep striking primarchs and super heavy daemon engines. Enjoy
ArtyomTrityak wrote: There are some rumors that GW are going to FAQ Daemons deep strike stratagem - it will not allow to DS Magnus :\
Source?
I know there have been internet people complaining about it before it even happens, but other than that, nothing. It's a knee jerk reaction to something that seems OP on paper. Is it powerful? Sure is! Is it broken and needs to be nerfed? Doubt it. Nurglings, Space Marine Scouts, Eldar Rangers... and myriad other units in pretty much every army have a way to counter DS units.
But it could happen by a simple "this does not work on units with the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword". Only time will tell. In the meantime, once the codex is released, you have minimum 2 weeks of deep striking primarchs and super heavy daemon engines. Enjoy
Here you go. Every time the FLG guys have said to expect something to not work or to be changed, it has been clarified to not work or changed.
So it is a possibility that it will get nerfed. It still might not because while I have tremendous respect for FLG and what they are doing for the hobby, they aren't GW. I've said it before because it's my favorite example but I think 40+ Genestealers charging first turn are scarier than a DPrimarch.
I admit the DS of something like a Brass Scorpion is a little strange, but for someone like Magnus (who did nothing wrong), is much more believable. Honestly we will just have to wait and see! At worst, we gain nothing. At best, more deep striking! Curse you, time & waiting...!
demontalons wrote: I think the body goes down 1pt and the gun 1 pt as well. Paying 2 points for a bolter even one with -2 app is ridiculous. I also think the flamers should go down 3 or 4 points.
No way they might drop by 1 point if were lucky. If you like to play Rubric Marines then you better strap in because your going to lose almost every game. The change to smite is going to put us in a position of paying 35 points for a model which is worth 25 maybe.
Gors are too expensive right now with the low LD and poor save small arms fire shreds them almost the same as cultists but at almost twice the price and thats if there is no cover for the cultists. This could change with the Shamen though.
What do you guys think it looks like the Rubric is about to go the way of the dodo in this game. Over priced and basically useless when it comes to everything. Aspiring Sorc will have 20 points worth of offensive power that is rarely used. 5 squads will mean your probably wasting 80-100 points of your army or so it seems.
demontalons wrote: I think the body goes down 1pt and the gun 1 pt as well. Paying 2 points for a bolter even one with -2 app is ridiculous. I also think the flamers should go down 3 or 4 points.
No way they might drop by 1 point if were lucky. If you like to play Rubric Marines then you better strap in because your going to lose almost every game. The change to smite is going to put us in a position of paying 35 points for a model which is worth 25 maybe.
Gors are too expensive right now with the low LD and poor save small arms fire shreds them almost the same as cultists but at almost twice the price and thats if there is no cover for the cultists. This could change with the Shamen though.
What do you guys think it looks like the Rubric is about to go the way of the dodo in this game. Over priced and basically useless when it comes to everything. Aspiring Sorc will have 20 points worth of offensive power that is rarely used. 5 squads will mean your probably wasting 80-100 points of your army or so it seems.
You sound like you *really* enjoy the sons
Gors are fine. no small arms fire doesn't kill them anywhere near as fast as cultists What game are you playing??? They are T4 with a 5++ re-rolling ones (assuming they are within 6 of an exalted/Ahriman). If you are competent your large blob has a 4++ re-rolling ones making them almost as tough as a space marine statistically (I believe that is somewhere around a 60% chance to make a save). If they connect with characters that character is probably dead. I own 50 and often field 30+
Rubrics IMO are pretty great but lacking all the bonuses Codex armies get of course were falling behind. I can see them being 18 or so points AFTER gun which brings them near in line with Plauge marines but more dangerous at 12 inchs for us. Once you include a Legion tactic (probably something LD + something else if we can be logical about it for a minute) Warlord traits (some of which may give auras) any auras that GW gives us, And of course Stratagems which will get at least one unique for Rubrics; They will be fine. will they be "tip top tier competitive!" Probably not, but frankly the army list will end up somewhere mid-tier, or mid-upper tier. Their guns are fantastic but they could use some help (it comes with the issue of 8th edition) 8th by in large is NOT an "elite army" edition, so you DO need to mix forces. I regularly take 20 or more Rubrics. I agree that the aspiring DEFINITELY needs a rework of some kind though as they arent really useful past the lucky force weapon "thwap" in combat. wasted spell potential as well.
SilverAlien wrote: Well, presumably the codex will adjust some of the point issues which plague them, as it did for DG. Think about how great it'll be if rubrics get the sort of price drop PM did.
Out of curiosity, how do people feel about tzaangors given the now confirmed incoming horror nerfs? Are they worth running at their current price, or do they need a point drop as well to be useful?
And if Rubrics get a points drop, then every other marine will be complaining that theirs is overpriced in comparison
Plague marines have already dropped in price twice since launch, now 17 from 21. So it doesn't seem unreasonable to suspect they might drop a smudge as well.
SilverAlien wrote: Well, presumably the codex will adjust some of the point issues which plague them, as it did for DG. Think about how great it'll be if rubrics get the sort of price drop PM did.
Out of curiosity, how do people feel about tzaangors given the now confirmed incoming horror nerfs? Are they worth running at their current price, or do they need a point drop as well to be useful?
And if Rubrics get a points drop, then every other marine will be complaining that theirs is overpriced in comparison
Plague marines have already dropped in price twice since launch, now 17 from 21. So it doesn't seem unreasonable to suspect they might drop a smudge as well.
Plague marines are seen as less durable then Rubricae even though they are hands down more durable.
Gors are fine. no small arms fire doesn't kill them anywhere near as fast as cultists What game are you playing??? They are T4 with a 5++ re-rolling ones (assuming they are within 6 of an exalted/Ahriman). If you are competent your large blob has a 4++ re-rolling ones making them almost as tough as a space marine statistically (I believe that is somewhere around a 60% chance to make a save). If they connect with characters that character is probably dead. I own 50 and often field 30+
Yeah? 30 man squad? If you lose 16 in 1 turn the rest of the squad runs off the map. 32 wounds in 1 turn against T4 yeah toally doable.
Ahriman21 wrote: Rubrics IMO are pretty great but lacking all the bonuses Codex armies get of course were falling behind. I can see them being 18 or so points AFTER gun which brings them near in line with Plauge marines but more dangerous at 12 inchs for us. Once you include a Legion tactic (probably something LD + something else if we can be logical about it for a minute) Warlord traits (some of which may give auras) any auras that GW gives us, And of course Stratagems which will get at least one unique for Rubrics; They will be fine. will they be "tip top tier competitive!" Probably not, but frankly the army list will end up somewhere mid-tier, or mid-upper tier. Their guns are fantastic but they could use some help (it comes with the issue of 8th edition) 8th by in large is NOT an "elite army" edition, so you DO need to mix forces. I regularly take 20 or more Rubrics. I agree that the aspiring DEFINITELY needs a rework of some kind though as they arent really useful past the lucky force weapon "thwap" in combat. wasted spell potential as well.
There pretty great but there over costed by 2 points? Yes LD bonus perfectly logical to have a LD bonus for an army of Sorcerers. What auras? We are getting 1 HQ which will probably only effect Tzaangors. We might get 1 from traits but thats it. Bet we get at least 1 unique for Tzaangors probably more. If you run more then 2 squads of Rubrics you will be bottom tier, the less Rubrics we run the better our army is. Again, there pretty great but thier Sgt. sucks? Do you know how logic works?
SilverAlien wrote: Well, presumably the codex will adjust some of the point issues which plague them, as it did for DG. Think about how great it'll be if rubrics get the sort of price drop PM did.
Out of curiosity, how do people feel about tzaangors given the now confirmed incoming horror nerfs? Are they worth running at their current price, or do they need a point drop as well to be useful?
And if Rubrics get a points drop, then every other marine will be complaining that theirs is overpriced in comparison
Plague marines have already dropped in price twice since launch, now 17 from 21. So it doesn't seem unreasonable to suspect they might drop a smudge as well.
Plague marines are seen as less durable then Rubricae even though they are hands down more durable.
Gors are fine. no small arms fire doesn't kill them anywhere near as fast as cultists What game are you playing??? They are T4 with a 5++ re-rolling ones (assuming they are within 6 of an exalted/Ahriman). If you are competent your large blob has a 4++ re-rolling ones making them almost as tough as a space marine statistically (I believe that is somewhere around a 60% chance to make a save). If they connect with characters that character is probably dead. I own 50 and often field 30+
Yeah? 30 man squad? If you lose 16 in 1 turn the rest of the squad runs off the map. 32 wounds in 1 turn against T4 yeah toally doable.
Ahriman21 wrote: Rubrics IMO are pretty great but lacking all the bonuses Codex armies get of course were falling behind. I can see them being 18 or so points AFTER gun which brings them near in line with Plauge marines but more dangerous at 12 inchs for us. Once you include a Legion tactic (probably something LD + something else if we can be logical about it for a minute) Warlord traits (some of which may give auras) any auras that GW gives us, And of course Stratagems which will get at least one unique for Rubrics; They will be fine. will they be "tip top tier competitive!" Probably not, but frankly the army list will end up somewhere mid-tier, or mid-upper tier. Their guns are fantastic but they could use some help (it comes with the issue of 8th edition) 8th by in large is NOT an "elite army" edition, so you DO need to mix forces. I regularly take 20 or more Rubrics. I agree that the aspiring DEFINITELY needs a rework of some kind though as they arent really useful past the lucky force weapon "thwap" in combat. wasted spell potential as well.
There pretty great but there over costed by 2 points? Yes LD bonus perfectly logical to have a LD bonus for an army of Sorcerers. What auras? We are getting 1 HQ which will probably only effect Tzaangors. We might get 1 from traits but thats it. Bet we get at least 1 unique for Tzaangors probably more. If you run more then 2 squads of Rubrics you will be bottom tier, the less Rubrics we run the better our army is. Again, there pretty great but thier Sgt. sucks? Do you know how logic works?
Okay so first of all; If you build your detachments right you should have an average of about 7-8 command points, 2 points to ignore morale so for the goats its not a terribly big deal IMHO. So that's a moot point the first turn our so of the game. The 30 some odd wounds IS *totally* doable you are absolutely correct, but that is a sizable portion of your opponents army plugging away at (relatively) cheap models. Id be willing to bet that they will get a "herd" stratagem which will make them very fast, they are already well above average speed for infantry. (that is conjecture of course)
The LD bonus id bet will personally be a thing, its to "ignore losses" which Rubrics would in-universe, the Iyanden trait of "ignore past 1 model lost" is a good example of how most people think it will work. If not I am certain something like that will be in effect for rubrics. Something will happen in regards to morale-mitigation.
Id stand a guess that we are getting more then just the 3 auras we see coming. Id bet on it (invul re-rolls, some aura from the shaman, and the daemon prince aura) I doubt we are ending up with just those though we could.
Rubrics ARE good, that doesn't mean they aren't over-costed by a hair. What kind of meta do you play in? It sounds like you obsess over WAAC and point for point efficiency to the point that you want a world-tourney winning army. if so look elsewhere! I *personally* Have had pretty good goes with rubrics on the table. Their guns are dangerous and they output decent damage, once you factor in stratagems they are very dangerous.
The reason as of *Now* that they are weaker is because when the indexs first came out they were pretty great, and when codexs started rolling out that made everything cheaper *and* more dangerous that they started finding themselves on the backfoot more and more. Armies without codexs fighting indexs, the index is going to have trouble and probably lose. Its just the way of things ATM. THAT is my "logic" bud.
You cant look at me with a straight face and tell me that even *If* they stayed the same points cost, (which i doubt) and we then got stratagems and a legion trait, as well as any spells we get, wont give a net positive effect to Rubrics or Scarab Occult overall.
Hardly a big deal when our book is next month. Your negativity is legendary and permeates the inter-webs
I'd also point out the relative durability of PM and rubrics depend heavily on what you are fighting. Against bolters in cover, obviously PM win. Against lasguns in the open, rubrics win. Rubrics generally tend to be better against hordes, who often have low enough str toughness 5 doesn't matter, and the majority of damage will be one. Cover shifts things in PM favor, but both units will likely end up in melee where cover doesn't help and the rubric ability still works, swinging it back around. So they are generally in the same ballpark durability wise.
I've had good success with Rubric Marines in 8th but they definitely don't feel quite right, a points drop to 18 per model and a change to the Aspiring Sorcerers would make me very happy.
I'm not sure what to do with Scarab Occult, while they do better melee than Rubrics they're basically the same in the shooting phase. A points drop is an obvious one.
I've had good success with Rubric Marines in 8th but they definitely don't feel quite right, a points drop to 18 per model and a change to the Aspiring Sorcerers would make me very happy.
I'm not sure what to do with Scarab Occult, while they do better melee than Rubrics they're basically the same in the shooting phase. A points drop is an obvious one.
Curious to see the Legion rule they get.
I learned very quickly to disregard casting with Aspirings. That tiny chance of miscast is enough to deter me from using it blowing up 2+ models.
The scarab occult I have actually had go nuclear kill himself, and then kill the Terminator standing next to him....turn 1 first cast. Fan-freakin-tastic. Praying we get some Perils mitigation lol.
I agree about the Scarab Occult, due to lack of options they definitely need a small points drop (or buff). the guns are great and about right, but the models with limited choice an ability are overcosted. Fixing JUST the sorcerer would help immensely (give him an actual spell to cast, Scarab Occult Sorcerers are actually powerful psykers not random Aspiring-scrubs)
Ahriman21 wrote: Okay so first of all; If you build your detachments right you should have an average of about 7-8 command points, 2 points to ignore morale so for the goats its not a terribly big deal IMHO. So that's a moot point the first turn our so of the game. The 30 some odd wounds IS *totally* doable you are absolutely correct, but that is a sizable portion of your opponents army plugging away at (relatively) cheap models. Id be willing to bet that they will get a "herd" stratagem which will make them very fast, they are already well above average speed for infantry. (that is conjecture of course)
I usually have 10-12 when I build my armies.
Ahriman21 wrote: The LD bonus id bet will personally be a thing, its to "ignore losses" which Rubrics would in-universe, the Iyanden trait of "ignore past 1 model lost" is a good example of how most people think it will work. If not I am certain something like that will be in effect for rubrics. Something will happen in regards to morale-mitigation.
Yes and it will be on the Shaman and will only effect Tzaangors
Ahriman21 wrote: Id stand a guess that we are getting more then just the 3 auras we see coming. Id bet on it (invul re-rolls, some aura from the shaman, and the daemon prince aura) I doubt we are ending up with just those though we could.
Yes we will get 1 more aura some sort of LD buff for Tzaangors.
Ahriman21 wrote: Rubrics ARE good, that doesn't mean they aren't over-costed by a hair. What kind of meta do you play in? It sounds like you obsess over WAAC and point for point efficiency to the point that you want a world-tourney winning army. if so look elsewhere! I *personally* Have had pretty good goes with rubrics on the table. Their guns are dangerous and they output decent damage, once you factor in stratagems they are very dangerous.
Either they are good or they are over priced with a poorly conceived Sgt., they cant be both.
Ahriman21 wrote: You cant look at me with a straight face and tell me that even *If* they stayed the same points cost, (which i doubt) and we then got stratagems and a legion trait, as well as any spells we get, wont give a net positive effect to Rubrics or Scarab Occult overall.
Why would they add anything to buff Rubrics and SOT? They have already done that. They are putting stuff in to buff the multiple Tzaangor units we will be getting.
Ahriman21 wrote: Hardly a big deal when our book is next month. Your negativity is legendary and permeates the inter-webs
Legendary maybe or just realistic they did an enormous release a year ago they, and are porting over a bunch of models from AoS. That doesn't strike me as spend what is needed to get it right it strikes me as they gave us 7 dollars and 2 rolls of toilet paper and we gotta make this work.
I've had good success with Rubric Marines in 8th but they definitely don't feel quite right, a points drop to 18 per model and a change to the Aspiring Sorcerers would make me very happy.
I'm not sure what to do with Scarab Occult, while they do better melee than Rubrics they're basically the same in the shooting phase. A points drop is an obvious one.
Curious to see the Legion rule they get.
I learned very quickly to disregard casting with Aspirings. That tiny chance of miscast is enough to deter me from using it blowing up 2+ models.
The scarab occult I have actually had go nuclear kill himself, and then kill the Terminator standing next to him....turn 1 first cast. Fan-freakin-tastic. Praying we get some Perils mitigation lol.
I agree about the Scarab Occult, due to lack of options they definitely need a small points drop (or buff). the guns are great and about right, but the models with limited choice an ability are overcosted. Fixing JUST the sorcerer would help immensely (give him an actual spell to cast, Scarab Occult Sorcerers are actually powerful psykers not random Aspiring-scrubs)
I don't think we will get anything crazy regarding that probably 6 in total 2 geared towards Tzaangors, 1 for Rubrics, 2 for casting, and 1 for anti-tank (probably replacing the lance ability Exalted Sorcerers had)
The Tzaangor Shaman aura will probably be +1 to hit rolls. That's what it in Age of Sigmar, at any rate (though the effect is listed on the datasheet for the skyfires/enlightened for some reason??? AoS rules are weird).
In other news, trying to build a daemonkin list using the new codex is a serious effort in frustration. Everything in the Tzeentch list is just so much better than what Thousand Sons have to offer, and Tzeentch Daemons aren't exactly this crazy god mode army either. It really drives in the point that the only A grade unit we have is Magnus.
Arachnofiend wrote: The Tzaangor Shaman aura will probably be +1 to hit rolls. That's what it in Age of Sigmar, at any rate (though the effect is listed on the datasheet for the skyfires/enlightened for some reason??? AoS rules are weird).
In other news, trying to build a daemonkin list using the new codex is a serious effort in frustration. Everything in the Tzeentch list is just so much better than what Thousand Sons have to offer, and Tzeentch Daemons aren't exactly this crazy god mode army either. It really drives in the point that the only A grade unit we have is Magnus.
Scarab occult gives you a deepstriking unit you don't have to use CP or that weird daemon summoning rule for, and tzneetch daemons are probably the one daemon faction who doesn't have any particularly impressive melee beatsticks outside the prince.
You can also use tanks or even daemon engines for some longer range shooting and anti tank which still barely exists for tzneetch.
Lastly, psyker HQs to use some of the tasty heretics spells, but that'll probably just be Magnus as you mentioned.
Arachnofiend wrote: The Tzaangor Shaman aura will probably be +1 to hit rolls. That's what it in Age of Sigmar, at any rate (though the effect is listed on the datasheet for the skyfires/enlightened for some reason??? AoS rules are weird).
In other news, trying to build a daemonkin list using the new codex is a serious effort in frustration. Everything in the Tzeentch list is just so much better than what Thousand Sons have to offer, and Tzeentch Daemons aren't exactly this crazy god mode army either. It really drives in the point that the only A grade unit we have is Magnus.
Scarab occult gives you a deepstriking unit you don't have to use CP or that weird daemon summoning rule for, and tzneetch daemons are probably the one daemon faction who doesn't have any particularly impressive melee beatsticks outside the prince.
You can also use tanks or even daemon engines for some longer range shooting and anti tank which still barely exists for tzneetch.
Lastly, psyker HQs to use some of the tasty heretics spells, but that'll probably just be Magnus as you mentioned.
People are reporting that a LoC with the Impossible Robes, the sword option, and the right Warlord trait is surprisingly tanky and does good damage in close combat. It also seems to me that the dagger replacement for a Herald in a Burning Chariot is a nice option. It basically means the Herald will be doing mortal wounds in close combat (-5 AP and ignores inv saves), plus the lamprey bites.
LoC is exciting - he looks like a pretty tanky choice now. Pink Horrors are going to be legit - dropping 30 near a herald and a DP, and casting flickering flames on them, results in *serious* dakka. against Boyz, for example, expected kills is 29! This will be a thing in Thousand sons I reckon, as we really need some options to deal with hordes...
Hopefully we'll get some explicit synergy between 1kSons and Tzeentch Daemons in the codex.
Finally, Tzaangors are going to have to be pretty tasty to let them compete with what Daemons can bring to the table now...
I think toughness wise thousand sons are where they need to be. Damage wise with bolters they need a stratagem or psychic power to boost their output. Both of which are possible, add in a point decrease and we could see rubrics and OST go from meh to niiiicccceeee.
I hope we get a DS stratagem to show Ahrimans knowledge of the webway.
I don’t know what they’ll do to make tzaangors more attractive, at the moment I see no reason for them when we can take brimstones and fill out a cheap demon battalion.
SilverAlien wrote: I'd also point out the relative durability of PM and rubrics depend heavily on what you are fighting. Against bolters in cover, obviously PM win. Against lasguns in the open, rubrics win. Rubrics generally tend to be better against hordes, who often have low enough str toughness 5 doesn't matter, and the majority of damage will be one. Cover shifts things in PM favor, but both units will likely end up in melee where cover doesn't help and the rubric ability still works, swinging it back around. So they are generally in the same ballpark durability wise.
Except the difference is when PM pull ahead they do so in larger margins having. Assuming 10 hits and calculating to models lost consider the following.
Bolter no cover/in cover. Lasgun/incover.
PM. 718/.359 .718/.359
RM. 825/.825 .544/.544
So you can see here while they do both have advantages in certain areas the plague marines end up on top at about a 2/5 ratio (you will lose 2 PM for every 5 Rubrics. This gap is basically the same as accross the board. The only difference is while in cover against S 6-7 with Ap 1-2 weapons Rubrics do noticibly better (2/5 ratio inverts) one of the main problems with this Plasma Rifles are AP-3 and by far the most common special weapon used in the game (in my meta at least) and the ratio for that is something like .41. Overall PM average about 3/5ths the losses Rubrics do over the course of a game. However we pay 1 more point in durability for some reason even though we should be paying at least 1 less probably 2.
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Arachnofiend wrote: The Tzaangor Shaman aura will probably be +1 to hit rolls. That's what it in Age of Sigmar, at any rate (though the effect is listed on the datasheet for the skyfires/enlightened for some reason??? AoS rules are weird).
In other news, trying to build a daemonkin list using the new codex is a serious effort in frustration. Everything in the Tzeentch list is just so much better than what Thousand Sons have to offer, and Tzeentch Daemons aren't exactly this crazy god mode army either. It really drives in the point that the only A grade unit we have is Magnus.
No the Shaman will not add a +1 to hit there is no way they are going to allow a mob of 30 guys that get 61 attacks to hit on 2s and reroll 1s, they will have some sort of LD buff attached to them.
Yes and the only reason Magnus is good is because hes a Daemon, in fact he does better in a Tzeentch army then in a TS army.
Dont really get the crying about tzaangors..beyond them we dont have anything we could add..apart from a psyker dreadnaught.
It probably will be a LD buff from the shaman Ie a completely useless buff just like our WL trait is useless against 90% of the other armies in the game.
I hope they let skyfires keep their mortal wound generation ot something though, that would be nice our army/deamons are meh in 40k but at leas theyre still top tier in aos so theres that to be happy about i suppose
Mesokhornee wrote: Dont really get the crying about tzaangors..beyond them we dont have anything we could add..apart from a psyker dreadnaught.
It probably will be a LD buff from the shaman Ie a completely useless buff just like our WL trait is useless against 90% of the other armies in the game.
I hope they let skyfires keep their mortal wound generation ot something though, that would be nice our army/deamons are meh in 40k but at leas theyre still top tier in aos so theres that to be happy about i suppose
Look, I love the tzaangor models and I love getting new ones. It's the fact that it's not a thousand sons codex anymore. It's Tzeentch with a splash of Thousand Sons
Of course it's a Thousand Sons codex. Tzaangors of all types are exclusive to Thousand Sons and, per the fluff, provide the fodder infantry of the legion. I'm as disappointed as anyone else that we aren't getting more Legionnaire units - especially a melee variant - but the hand we've been dealt is acceptable as functionally those new units are probably being put in to fill some gaps in our roster. We went from having 6 exclusive units to 10 exclusive units, and the side benefit is - like Daemons - the army is awesome value if you want to get into Age of Sigmar or vice versa, something that the other Legions don't have to their name.
As far as the Shaman is concerned, it's hard to say what he will do. Re-rolling 1s to-wound for Tzaangor units is a distinct possibility, but a flat +1 to-hit isn't completely out of the question. Remember, Broodlords give Genestealers +1 to their to-hit rolls, and Genestealers generate more attacks than Tzaangors per model.
Honestly, the Enlightened and confirmation of Skyfires being present intrigue me far more. In Age of Sigmar, the Skyfires manage to be deadly in combat thanks to how brutal Disks of Tzeentch are in that game, but it's an entirely different case in 40K. On top of that, Tzaangor units in general are the "elite" of the Tzeentch Arcanites, with basic Tzaangors being classed as medium-heavy infantry in Age of Sigmar thanks to having two wounds each. In 40K, again, different story, so what will that entail for the disk-riding ones? Two or three wounds each? Mortal wound output for either unit? Sniper capabilities for Skyfires (as that is what they are primarily used for in AOS)? I guess we'll see.
The Mutalith is....noteworthy, but if it's anything like it was in WHFB and is in AOS, I'm not sure it will be a great role-filler for Thousand Sons. In those game systems, it's not really a beat-stick, it's not really a tank, it's not really a support piece, and it's not a super reliable debuffer. I'm curious to see what they do with it but I'm not expecting much.
I'm not saying it's bad in AOS per-se, more that it's an oddball unit that doesn't fit a traditional archetype i.e. it's not the tankiest but still more than tanky enough, good but not great melee damage, etc. Extrapolating a clear role for it in a Thousand Sons army based on that is difficult, it certainly won't be as scary a fighter as a Daemon Prince but I'm guessing the Aura of Mutation will give it a unique spot.
I always liked it for helping with map control. In aos to come near it you have to be willing to accept your units are going to get debuffed at best, or be taking d3/d6 mortal wounds made it very useful vs melee heavy armies or units
The Mutalith is as Mesokhornee say, a giant map control tool. Try to put him behind some LOS blocking terrain. He can tank enough fire so you enemy needs to put actual effort in killing him, and he can totally defend himself in meele, at the same time he is creating a "no-go" zone in the map.
Or at least thats how it is in AoS. If they translate it in w40k he could be a very usefull tool. But one hard to use, and maybe in the "Spam just one way to play" that is the meta of many people maybe a more "versatile" unit like him isn't gonna work.
The way I look at it, every unit that targets the Mutalith is one less unit targeting Magnus (especially since it seems clear that he's losing access to Warptime).
I feel like if the mutilath keeps its mortal wound generation it could be useful still in the same role. Even a horde army isnt going to like taking d3-d6+ mortal wounds if its decent force multiplier that could be nice as well...honestly reading the fluff and then the rules for both thousand sons, tzeentch demons and grey knights its pretty clear GW doesnt realy know what to do with psyker armies at in regards to the TT
Caederes wrote: Of course it's a Thousand Sons codex. Tzaangors of all types are exclusive to Thousand Sons and, per the fluff, provide the fodder infantry of the legion. I'm as disappointed as anyone else that we aren't getting more Legionnaire units - especially a melee variant - but the hand we've been dealt is acceptable as functionally those new units are probably being put in to fill some gaps in our roster. We went from having 6 exclusive units to 10 exclusive units, and the side benefit is - like Daemons - the army is awesome value if you want to get into Age of Sigmar or vice versa, something that the other Legions don't have to their name.
Fodder does no make up the bulk of an army or even a large minority of the army, they are throw away troops whose only purpose is to die, you don't support them, you don't give them good gear, you feed them enough to feed the cannons.
Caederes wrote: As far as the Shaman is concerned, it's hard to say what he will do. Re-rolling 1s to-wound for Tzaangor units is a distinct possibility, but a flat +1 to-hit isn't completely out of the question. Remember, Broodlords give Genestealers +1 to their to-hit rolls, and Genestealers generate more attacks than Tzaangors per model.
No its not your not getting a model that costs 7 points has 2 S4 AP -1 attacks and hits on a 2+
Caederes wrote: Honestly, the Enlightened and confirmation of Skyfires being present intrigue me far more. In Age of Sigmar, the Skyfires manage to be deadly in combat thanks to how brutal Disks of Tzeentch are in that game, but it's an entirely different case in 40K. On top of that, Tzaangor units in general are the "elite" of the Tzeentch Arcanites, with basic Tzaangors being classed as medium-heavy infantry in Age of Sigmar thanks to having two wounds each. In 40K, again, different story, so what will that entail for the disk-riding ones? Two or three wounds each? Mortal wound output for either unit? Sniper capabilities for Skyfires (as that is what they are primarily used for in AOS)? I guess we'll see.
poo
Caederes wrote: The Mutalith is....noteworthy, but if it's anything like it was in WHFB and is in AOS, I'm not sure it will be a great role-filler for Thousand Sons. In those game systems, it's not really a beat-stick, it's not really a tank, it's not really a support piece, and it's not a super reliable debuffer. I'm curious to see what they do with it but I'm not expecting much.
I can think of some uses it might have, but it doesn't involve any Rubrics at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh good AC got new models they needed it super bad...
I have an odd feeling that skyfires will be the go-to.
Long range Sniper or 6's = Mortal Wounds mechanic much as In AOS makes sense.
They will probably be a harassment unit, Enlightened sound interesting but its a shooting edition. If the Thousand sons get a lore with a few damage slinging spells + the Skyfires it sounds like we could nail almost any character hiding in the ranks of our opponents fairly easily at 24 inchs or less.
Sounds like theres *alot* of potential for that. Leave the tzaangors to clog and fight and rubrics to plug anything with decent armor.
Fodder does no make up the bulk of an army or even a large minority of the army, they are throw away troops whose only purpose is to die, you don't support them, you don't give them good gear, you feed them enough to feed the cannons.
No its not your not getting a model that costs 7 points has 2 S4 AP -1 attacks and hits on a 2+
poo
I can think of some uses it might have, but it doesn't involve any Rubrics at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh good AC got new models they needed it super bad...
Ok, seeing as you clearly don't know anything about the actual Thousand Sons, let me enlighten you courtesy of Lexicanum.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_of_the_Fang Thousand Sons Strength *Approximately 700 Legionaires.
*2 Million Spireguard plus armour and artillery.
*Cataphract Robot Maniple.
What was that about fodder not making up the bulk of the army? Do you even understand the concept of fodder in the context of Warhammer 40,000? I'm assuming you haven't read up on the background of the Astra Militarum....or the Iron Warriors....or the Alpha Legion....or really any Chaos Legion. Try again. As far as "you don't support them" and further comments on the matter, again, take a look at the Astra Militarum. The vast majority of all Guardsmen are essentially fodder for the tanks/navy/etc. However, they are supported both narratively and in-game thanks to the Vox network, Orders, etc. Tyranid Termagants and Hormagaunts are supported by the larger beasts such as Tervigons and Warriors, working in tandem with each other, yet they are fodder as well. Let's extrapolate this all to Tzaangors. Why are you complaining that they are supported, given good gear, etc? What gear do Tzaangors have? They are half naked mutants given basic weapons and armour....sound familiar? Support-wise, a psychic leader of the Tzaangors directing its' lesser kin makes perfect sense. Your argument, unfortunately, makes absolutely no sense.
"No its not, you're not getting a model that costs 7 points and has 2 Strength 5 AP-3 attacks on the charge and hits on 2+ with potential to deal 2 Damage per wound." Man, that new Chaos Daemons codex is going to be quite a shock to you if you have never come up against Bloodletters Now stop being ridiculous and understand that your complaint is as baseless as ever and that it is still entirely possible a Shaman can provide a +1 to-hit buff to Tzaangor units. Bloodletters get that buff on their own!
Oh look, that incredibly mature attitude is on display yet again! I'm sorry but I refuse to play the game of expecting the worst and proclaiming it to everyone like it is a god-given truth.
So what uses does it involve then? If it's purpose is to be a fire magnet, you'll take it to take fire off of your other valuable units.....like Rubric Marines.
Let's top it off with complaints about the Custodes! Wow! So original! Those Custodes that had a grand total of 1 plastic unit getting new plastic units is awesome, much like when Harlequins got a whole bunch of new units that didn't exist before. It's good for the game. I don't see how on earth that's a negative.
To everyone else, yeah, I can see the Mutalith being in that kind of role in 40K as I'm not sure what other role it'd fill that another monster isn't likely to just do better. If nothing else, it's another cross-compatible model that will hopefully be useful in both game systems.
Well, the negative thing about the custards getting models isn't the fact that they are getting a release, its that the amount of things that gets released is limited - and there are many things more worth that would be better for the game than yet another imperial super-space-marines.
Including large swats of armies who outright lack plastic models for SO long, for no good reason, and the fact that codcies for already established factions got pushed back for placing a new one that hardly provides anything new anyway.
I'm using one unit of tzaangors and one of kairic acolytes to differentiate them. (and beacuse thats what comes in the big Tzeentch arcanites box. On a sidenote hurray for already owning the shaman and enlightened/skyfires when that leak dropped.)
I've almost finished painting my 2000pt thousand sons list and will be taking them to a tournament next month, we will see if its before or after the codex drops. I'm reasonably confident either way.
Has anyone tried the new Pink Horrors blobs is support of their Sons yet? I've tried 20s but not 30s... I guess I have a lot more gribblies to paint :/
I think they'll soon become a staple for the Sons - e.g. 2 Sons detachments and a Daemon batallion. They are really useful and provide what we need, namely to cause havoc, to bubblewrap, and to just delete hordes.
Caederes wrote: As far as the Shaman is concerned, it's hard to say what he will do. Re-rolling 1s to-wound for Tzaangor units is a distinct possibility, but a flat +1 to-hit isn't completely out of the question. Remember, Broodlords give Genestealers +1 to their to-hit rolls, and Genestealers generate more attacks than Tzaangors per model.
No its not your not getting a model that costs 7 points has 2 S4 AP -1 attacks and hits on a 2+
I know math is hard, but bear in mind here that the example Caederes brought up, Genestealers, are a 14-point model that literally get 4 S4 Ap-1 attacks that hit on 2+...and rend on a 6 to wound.
Maybe they won't, but it's not so outlandish an idea that it can be dismissed out of hand like you're doing.
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grouchoben wrote: Has anyone tried the new Pink Horrors blobs is support of their Sons yet? I've tried 20s but not 30s... I guess I have a lot more gribblies to paint :/
I think they'll soon become a staple for the Sons - e.g. 2 Sons detachments and a Daemon batallion. They are really useful and provide what we need, namely to cause havoc, to bubblewrap, and to just delete hordes.
As yet I only have 15 pinks (need to buy and paint up another box of 10) but I had a lot of success with a blob of 15 pinks, 10 brims, 10 blues in split in my latest game against some big model focused death guard/nurgle daemons. Paired them with Changeling and a Herald and despite basically never succeeding in my buff spell casts (flickering fires and boon both failed 3 turns in a row) they were an incredibly solid meatwall, slowly grinding down 20 plaguebearers and tanking the attacks over various rounds of a great unclean one, corbax utterblight, and a daemon prince. I had 10 rubrics and 3 flamers sitting behind them and hurling dakka over the wall to shoot up the various units crashing into the horrors.
The only trouble I have with the idea of the megablob is having to keep 30 pinks from getting engaged on. I routinely get to use my shooting attack exactly once per game with my horrors, and I even bring a second 30-blob of tzaangors. I guess if I was trying to use the tzaangors to screen the pinks as well (typically one screen covers half my army while the other screens the other half) it might be doable but 30 models are hard to screen.
Fodder does no make up the bulk of an army or even a large minority of the army, they are throw away troops whose only purpose is to die, you don't support them, you don't give them good gear, you feed them enough to feed the cannons.
No its not your not getting a model that costs 7 points has 2 S4 AP -1 attacks and hits on a 2+
poo
I can think of some uses it might have, but it doesn't involve any Rubrics at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh good AC got new models they needed it super bad...
Ok, seeing as you clearly don't know anything about the actual Thousand Sons, let me enlighten you courtesy of Lexicanum.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_of_the_Fang Thousand Sons Strength *Approximately 700 Legionaires.
*2 Million Spireguard plus armour and artillery.
*Cataphract Robot Maniple.
And your point being what? Outside of Black Templar, Space Marine factions supposedly only have 1,000 marines. So you're saying we should knock the marines down to 3 kits? How many do they have in their dex as of right now? 30? 35?
Hey Scotsman, yeah, the horrors become a top priority once they've dropped, and tend to get locked in cc after their alpha, but I really don't think that has to be a problem for us, as your tactics exemplify.
1) 140pts is cheap - if it buys us a great alpha and a very tanky meatshield, then I'mhappy with that.
2) their range means we have some flex in terms of deployment, so they are easy to drop in as a screen, whilst still burning things to the ground.
3) their overwatch is legit! 20 with buffs should hit 11 or 12 times on overwatch. I can get behind that.
Like you said, the flamer's extended range on their pistols make them a great pair, with Rubric soulreaping away. I like the tactical options this all opens up - exciting times
The Skyfires probably will either be Sniper, Anti-tank (Melta arrow? maybe?) or some kind of Mortal-Wound to hit ratio (the AOS incarnation causes additional mortals on 6's to hit)
The Enlightened are interesting but their buff would only make sense if they could survive a beating, "guided by the past" gives the entire unit re-rolls to hit AND wound if they have been swung at in a combat......well..... This sounds great against chaff units but a direct translation from AOS to 40k would make the unit weak. Id hope this rule doesn't translate directly. (another case for skyfires given ranged harassment and objective capping being big deals in 8th)
The shaman will be re-rolls of some kind judging by normal "Astartes" unit characters in elite OR hq slots, probably wounds as some said earlier given its a logical assumption based on what we have access to now. but boy what I would give to have access to that for the Rubrics, deadly shooting applied directly to face.
I would expect details in the next 2 weeks or so to start coming out, shop owner I know said the pre-order date for Custodes is saturday the 20th and the release date is the 27th with *everything* coming out in 1 big wave. So that leaves early february / mid February for the sons!
I just wanted a pskyer dread and some automata..y cant we have these GW..instead AC is gettig new models ive never even seen anyone play with anything even related to AC outside of 30k i know everyone always wants their faction to get new stuff etc but we really did not need anything more imperium at all.
And honestly i get the whole "this isnt thousand sons" argument, thousand sons basically dont exist anymore, apart from some raiding warbands and the like, we are no longer a legion. It would honestly, in more instances be more fluff accurate to play black legion with a thousand sons detachment as support for regular CSM forces it does stll kind of suck sometimes how our legion is basically tzeentch deamons splashed with space marine flavor...unless of course you use FW models, thats the only way you can build a decent competetive-ish and "pure" 1k sons army at the moment
The Skyfires probably will either be Sniper, Anti-tank (Melta arrow? maybe?) or some kind of Mortal-Wound to hit ratio (the AOS incarnation causes additional mortals on 6's to hit)
The Enlightened are interesting but their buff would only make sense if they could survive a beating, "guided by the past" gives the entire unit re-rolls to hit AND wound if they have been swung at in a combat......well..... This sounds great against chaff units but a direct translation from AOS to 40k would make the unit weak. Id hope this rule doesn't translate directly. (another case for skyfires given ranged harassment and objective capping being big deals in 8th)
The shaman will be re-rolls of some kind judging by normal "Astartes" unit characters in elite OR hq slots, probably wounds as some said earlier given its a logical assumption based on what we have access to now. but boy what I would give to have access to that for the Rubrics, deadly shooting applied directly to face.
I would expect details in the next 2 weeks or so to start coming out, shop owner I know said the pre-order date for Custodes is saturday the 20th and the release date is the 27th with *everything* coming out in 1 big wave. So that leaves early february / mid February for the sons!
I doubt they will get the Mortal-wound on hit ratio. With Prescience they will be putting out mortal wounds on 5s that's 1/3 and with rerolling 1s you can get it to almost 1 in 2 a 12 man squad would put out 6 mortal wounds per turn which seems a bit much.
Well a logical thought would be more then likely 2 lores. As its already confirmed Magnus will know MORE then his current three spells. (Warhammer community confirmed this) If we take the "rule of one" into account this would make sorcerers and Ahriman almost useless if he can chuck 4-6 spells by himself.....
Currently the lore Dark hereticus is 6 spells + Tzeentch mark spell Weaver of Fates attached to the lore.
Along with Tzeentchs fail sto--- I mean....firestorm.... though this spell is statistically so bad it makes my eyes bleed we still do technically have it.
So its not a huge leap to think they will give us an additional 4 spells to go along with the 8 we already have. I would wager it will probably happen. (makes sense at any rate)
You know what would be cool? An anti-infantry spell of some kind that did a lot of non-mortal wounds. I'm hoping that this codex is the one where GW pulls their heads out of their butts on Mortal Wounds being an INCREDIBLY BORING mechanic/way to represent the myriad forms of psychic attack in the 40k universe and gives a psychic power that's meant to clear out hordes.
That would go a long way towards making Thousand Sons viable to play as a standalone force rather than having them lean on tzeentch daemons for their chaff clearing needs.
Mesokhornee wrote: I just wanted a pskyer dread and some automata..y cant we have these GW..instead AC is gettig new models ive never even seen anyone play with anything even related to AC outside of 30k i know everyone always wants their faction to get new stuff etc but we really did not need anything more imperium at all.
We may yet get a psyker dread. It'd be easy enough for the codex to give you the option to upgrade a Helbrute to be a psyker. It's not quite the same as getting an actual 40K model for an Osiron Dreadnought, but it's in the same ballpark.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
demontalons wrote: I’m curious as to whether we get our own psychic tree in addition to or excluding heretic astartes.
When I first read this I thought you meant a Tzeentchy version of the Feculent Gnarlmaw. I am so smrt.
Anyway, based on what happened with the Death Guard, I'm going to be very (pleasantly) surprised if the Sons retain access to Dark Hereticus. It'll be great if we do, but I doubt it will happen.
Caederes wrote:Ok, seeing as you clearly don't know anything about the actual Thousand Sons, let me enlighten you courtesy of Lexicanum.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_of_the_Fang Thousand Sons Strength *Approximately 700 Legionaires.
*2 Million Spireguard plus armour and artillery.
*Cataphract Robot Maniple.
What was that about fodder not making up the bulk of the army? Do you even understand the concept of fodder in the context of Warhammer 40,000? I'm assuming you haven't read up on the background of the Astra Militarum....or the Iron Warriors....or the Alpha Legion....or really any Chaos Legion. Try again. As far as "you don't support them" and further comments on the matter, again, take a look at the Astra Militarum. The vast majority of all Guardsmen are essentially fodder for the tanks/navy/etc. However, they are supported both narratively and in-game thanks to the Vox network, Orders, etc. Tyranid Termagants and Hormagaunts are supported by the larger beasts such as Tervigons and Warriors, working in tandem with each other, yet they are fodder as well. Let's extrapolate this all to Tzaangors. Why are you complaining that they are supported, given good gear, etc? What gear do Tzaangors have? They are half naked mutants given basic weapons and armour....sound familiar? Support-wise, a psychic leader of the Tzaangors directing its' lesser kin makes perfect sense. Your argument, unfortunately, makes absolutely no sense.
"No its not, you're not getting a model that costs 7 points and has 2 Strength 5 AP-3 attacks on the charge and hits on 2+ with potential to deal 2 Damage per wound." Man, that new Chaos Daemons codex is going to be quite a shock to you if you have never come up against Bloodletters Now stop being ridiculous and understand that your complaint is as baseless as ever and that it is still entirely possible a Shaman can provide a +1 to-hit buff to Tzaangor units. Bloodletters get that buff on their own!
Oh look, that incredibly mature attitude is on display yet again! I'm sorry but I refuse to play the game of expecting the worst and proclaiming it to everyone like it is a god-given truth.
So what uses does it involve then? If it's purpose is to be a fire magnet, you'll take it to take fire off of your other valuable units.....like Rubric Marines.
Let's top it off with complaints about the Custodes! Wow! So original! Those Custodes that had a grand total of 1 plastic unit getting new plastic units is awesome, much like when Harlequins got a whole bunch of new units that didn't exist before. It's good for the game. I don't see how on earth that's a negative.
To everyone else, yeah, I can see the Mutalith being in that kind of role in 40K as I'm not sure what other role it'd fill that another monster isn't likely to just do better. If nothing else, it's another cross-compatible model that will hopefully be useful in both game systems.
Do you know what fodder is? Cannon Fodder, comes from the phrase Cattle fodder, they are units which are literally refered to as food for cannons. Do you know what food dosen't do? Kill things. Spireguard are not fodder, neither are Guardsman, Conscripts are fodder. The moment to commit support to a unit you declare it not a fodder unit.
Bloodletters can only get the bonus to S and attacks on the charge, when charged or heroic interventions, they are also T 3, and they also lack any way of augmenting thier durability, thier +1 to hit is attached to the squad size which means you can always get to it, its not tied to a charcter that can hide behind the squad. Tzzangors can get to almost the durability of a SM, Bloodletters have the durability of a Guardsman in the open, assuming no AP of course. By the way Twistbrays are the leaders of Warflocks not the Shamans.
Tzaangors have access to BASIC weapons and armor...Riding disks which were, up until now, an UPGRADE only SOME HQ units could get.
You must be a SM player. Only a SM player can think a brand new faction that hasn't been around for 2 editions deserves more attention then armies that have been around since the games inception. Not to mention armies that have needed attention for a while but have gotten none. How much money did they spend on new models for a new army when they could have spent it on armies that needed updates to models.
A Rubric Marine is a better fire magnet then Tzaangors, you will on average lose 6 Tzaangors for every 1 Rubric Marine, assuming no AP. It dosent even out until AP-2 but then who is going to shoot AP-2 weapons at a unit that only has a 5+ invul save why not shoot the AP- at that squad and save the AP for the Rubrics.
the_scotsman wrote:
I know math is hard, but bear in mind here that the example Caederes brought up, Genestealers, are a 14-point model that literally get 4 S4 Ap-1 attacks that hit on 2+...and rend on a 6 to wound.
Maybe they won't, but it's not so outlandish an idea that it can be dismissed out of hand like you're doing.
Genestealers also have higher LD, a psudo-deployment ability, 2" more movement, can take advantage of cover, can charge after advancing giving them a (30 inch range on turn 1), makeing them WAY better the Tzaangors.
Warhammer Live is going to have Friday's [probably Thursday since Warhammer Live is likely leaving for Vegas on Friday] Battle Report as Custodes VS Thousand Sons (the latter having their first advance preview of the codex during the battle).
Warhammer Live is going to have Friday's [probably Thursday since Warhammer Live is likely leaving for Vegas on Friday] Battle Report as Custodes VS Thousand Sons (the latter having their first advance preview of the codex during the battle).
It's gonna be a slaughterfest. It'll be a pretty embarrassing show for the Thousand Sons new codex.
....which is why it would be not at all as ridiculous as you claim for a buffing character to grant them 2+ to hit. Completely unsupported, Tzaangors are essentially worthless, the only reason they're quite useful right now is because they have access to pretty good defensive buffs through the ahriman/exalted reroll buff plus the psychic power that gives them a 4++.
They're really quite solid if you take a single unit of 30 in the army with the idea that you're going to give them that buff and in an emergency keep them from running with the Insane Bravery stratagem...but that's not using them as pure "fodder" - the whole point of them is that they perform a similar task to cultists but actually do kill things in melee quite effectively.
Warhammer Live is going to have Friday's [probably Thursday since Warhammer Live is likely leaving for Vegas on Friday] Battle Report as Custodes VS Thousand Sons (the latter having their first advance preview of the codex during the battle).
It's gonna be a slaughterfest. It'll be a pretty embarrassing show for the Thousand Sons new codex.
Probably (I mean, the idea is to advertise the Custodes), but it'll still be amusing to see the Sons play an army that they actually outnumber.
Warhammer Live is going to have Friday's [probably Thursday since Warhammer Live is likely leaving for Vegas on Friday] Battle Report as Custodes VS Thousand Sons (the latter having their first advance preview of the codex during the battle).
It's gonna be a slaughterfest. It'll be a pretty embarrassing show for the Thousand Sons new codex.
Probably (I mean, the idea is to advertise the Custodes), but it'll still be amusing to see the Sons play an army that they actually outnumber.
It's also to advertise the new Thousand Sons codex with a preview of said book. But it's going to be a one sided fight unless they completely rig it or the rolls are horrible.
There are a lot of things that they could do in the new tsons codex that would make tson rubrics better than rubrics from the chaos codex, but I doubt they will do anything drastic which is a shame.
I mean between death guard in chaos to death guard by themselves there wasn't much of a difference, it was supporting units that got the big boost. So really it is all going to be about the tzaangors since that's where they have free will to change what they want to make tsons play the way they want.
I really hope tsons work well by themselves and am looking forward to the preview to see anything that I can to give an idea of where they are going.
First off, this is only going to supposedly show a preview of some of the new codex things. The full codex will not be being used or people could figure out a lot more of the dex itself. Secondly, I have no rose colored lenses about GW's love for their fanboy loyalists. Thirdly this isn't an advertisement for Thousand Sons, it's for the new custodes.
the_scotsman wrote:....which is why it would be not at all as ridiculous as you claim for a buffing character to grant them 2+ to hit. Completely unsupported, Tzaangors are essentially worthless, the only reason they're quite useful right now is because they have access to pretty good defensive buffs through the ahriman/exalted reroll buff plus the psychic power that gives them a 4++.
They're really quite solid if you take a single unit of 30 in the army with the idea that you're going to give them that buff and in an emergency keep them from running with the Insane Bravery stratagem...but that's not using them as pure "fodder" - the whole point of them is that they perform a similar task to cultists but actually do kill things in melee quite effectively.
You have to look at effects as a whole, you give them a +1 with an aura and you free up a spell not to mention basically can get multiple instances of what is supposed to be limited. On top of that your going ro end up with multiple squads being able to hit 97% of the time with 2 auras. 2 30 man squads will be able to kill 60+ Guard in a single turn, if you play your cards right you can snipe the Commisars with spells and Blam your talking upwards of 90 Guardsman a turn. Even SM will lose 400 points per turn, assuming a special in 1 of the 6 squads you will kill in a turn. But that's gotta cost like 8-9 hundred points nope might break 650 wont be above 700.
The're not fodder and never have been. They are 7 ppm they are almost double guardsman on thier own. Not including HQs to buff them once you do that Guardsman will go up to 6 ppm Tzaangors on the other hand go up to 9 ppm if you include 1 Exalted for 60 Tzaangors. They have never been fodder.
If i had to venture a guess on the Aura i would say some sort of LD buff and reroll 1s to wound in CC. He will basically be a cross between an Exalted champion and a Dark Apostle.
SilverAlien wrote:Okay first off, they absolutely are rigged to a degree these are marketing exercises.
Second, how do you possibly think you can predict the result of an actual fair fight despite having no idea what either codex actually holds?
I mean, unless they nerf the crap out of Magnus he could swing the game on his own.
Maybe tsons get the same CT as custodes do, that'd be a game changer for much of the army. Also be borderline broken in some cases.
I have to agree they are probably rigged, bit to be fair you dont want a set of bad rolls to ruin your sales for the next quaterly becuase someo e wanted to roll 4 1s on 6 dice, or have a bunch of Rubrics blow up and take out half your army.
Azuza001 wrote:There are a lot of things that they could do in the new tsons codex that would make tson rubrics better than rubrics from the chaos codex, but I doubt they will do anything drastic which is a shame.
I mean between death guard in chaos to death guard by themselves there wasn't much of a difference, it was supporting units that got the big boost. So really it is all going to be about the tzaangors since that's where they have free will to change what they want to make tsons play the way they want.
I really hope tsons work well by themselves and am looking forward to the preview to see anything that I can to give an idea of where they are going.
The only thing I can see them doing is maybe a one or two point drop but that's about it, they wont do anything more becuase they went in a different direction and used Tzaangors to fill holes and fix problems.
Most likely rubrics will be unchanged except for points. OST however could be pretty different. An extra wound would really increase their staying power, maybe they’ll give their swords a special rule ala the death guard rust rule
demontalons wrote: Most likely rubrics will be unchanged except for points. OST however could be pretty different. An extra wound would really increase their staying power, maybe they’ll give their swords a special rule ala the death guard rust rule
unchanged but also have a tactic, strategem access, and *possibly* some kind of new aura to take advantage of.
Possibly a point drop, so overall a much better place.
demontalons wrote: Most likely rubrics will be unchanged except for points. OST however could be pretty different. An extra wound would really increase their staying power, maybe they’ll give their swords a special rule ala the death guard rust rule
unchanged but also have a tactic, strategem access, and *possibly* some kind of new aura to take advantage of.
Possibly a point drop, so overall a much better place.
I don't think so I think the Warpflame pistol will be bumped by a couple points, its not the same thing but it would be a points change.
demontalons wrote:O I agree, at bare minimum they will be better, question is just how much better. Tomorrow is the live battle so hopefully we get some juicy tidbits
I have no doubt we will get tidbits but they will almost exclusively be about Tzaangors, in particular the new units.
I mean, a start for SOT would be to just revert their damn swords back to force swords like they were before. 1 damage S4 melee weapons are so dumb on models that cost 50 odd points a pop.
My last game I used them was the single best performance they ever had, and they still only managed to deal 3-4 wounds per phase for three turns. It just so happened that those were the critical wounds I needed to finish off mortarion, then kill a nurgle herald, then kill a DG lord and tie up one of their artillery tanks.
I know, SOT infuriate me. Some great rules and models, blunted by utter inflexibility in loadout, capped with the worst CC weapon they could have been given, barring chainswords.
grouchoben wrote: I know, SOT infuriate me. Some great rules and models, blunted by utter inflexibility in loadout, capped with the worst CC weapon they could have been given, barring chainswords.
I'd rather have them equipped with chainswords tbh. I need anti-horde weapons WAY more than I need more low-strength good AP single damage weaponry. Cost 4 points less per model and get an extra cc attack? Sign me up!
demontalons wrote: Most likely rubrics will be unchanged except for points. OST however could be pretty different. An extra wound would really increase their staying power, maybe they’ll give their swords a special rule ala the death guard rust rule
unchanged but also have a tactic, strategem access, and *possibly* some kind of new aura to take advantage of.
Possibly a point drop, so overall a much better place.
I don't think so I think the Warpflame pistol will be bumped by a couple points, its not the same thing but it would be a points change.
demontalons wrote:O I agree, at bare minimum they will be better, question is just how much better. Tomorrow is the live battle so hopefully we get some juicy tidbits
I have no doubt we will get tidbits but they will almost exclusively be about Tzaangors, in particular the new units.
Guess again; already shown that we are getting TWO lores, keeping dark hereticus, and on top of that the Rubric and Scarab Occult Sorcerers are getting 1 spell slot each for spell access.
Translation; Smite nerf meant *NOTHING* so all your freaking out means and meant nothing. Back to the army being awesome
Look pretty good to me, I also like the fact that the tzaangor disc unit is a SINGLE unit with weapon options so you can mix and match, the "Greatbow" will be interesting to see.
Shaman is (like I guessed) an elite slot, level 1 wizard.
The Daemon Prince for us has a 4++ invulnerable AND gains an extra spell slot.
demontalons wrote: Most likely rubrics will be unchanged except for points. OST however could be pretty different. An extra wound would really increase their staying power, maybe they’ll give their swords a special rule ala the death guard rust rule
unchanged but also have a tactic, strategem access, and *possibly* some kind of new aura to take advantage of.
Possibly a point drop, so overall a much better place.
I don't think so I think the Warpflame pistol will be bumped by a couple points, its not the same thing but it would be a points change.
demontalons wrote:O I agree, at bare minimum they will be better, question is just how much better. Tomorrow is the live battle so hopefully we get some juicy tidbits
I have no doubt we will get tidbits but they will almost exclusively be about Tzaangors, in particular the new units.
Guess again; already shown that we are getting TWO lores, keeping dark hereticus, and on top of that the Rubric and Scarab Occult Sorcerers are getting 1 spell slot each for spell access.
Translation; Smite nerf meant *NOTHING* so all your freaking out means and meant nothing. Back to the army being awesome
Look pretty good to me, I also like the fact that the tzaangor disc unit is a SINGLE unit with weapon options so you can mix and match, the "Greatbow" will be interesting to see.
Shaman is (like I guessed) an elite slot, level 1 wizard.
The Daemon Prince for us has a 4++ invulnerable AND gains an extra spell slot.
So, no points listed on either the TS or Custodes lists. I'll go on a limb and say they're maybe using power levels in this case (unless it's mentioned otherwise on the stream). Which means... the Icon of Flame is still garbage in the new Codex. And here I was hoping the Tzaangors would get the same banner they have in AoS. Or at least an update on Icon of Flame for a TS army.
For reference, the Tzaangor Banner in AoS reads: At the start of your hero phases, take a dice for each WIZARD (friend or foe) within 9" of this unit. Then, pick an enemy unit within 18" and roll the dice; the unit suffers a mortal wound for each roll of 4 or more."
BoomWolf wrote: I don't even know what auto-damage, as in automatically wound on to-hit of 6?
They were not very clear on that honestly.
I think that's what it means, yeah, just do the wounds without having to do a to-wound roll.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Apparently the Mutalith offers a varying buff to your army at the start of the shooting phase. Interesting, because in AoS it's a debuff/damage dealer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Dark Matter Crystal lets you re-set-up a unit on the board.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Mutalith can blow up when it dies like a vehicle.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Tzaangor Shaman can reroll a failed casting roll once per battle (like AoS).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Based on what was said earlier, it sounds like the Enlightened with the Greatbows do 3 damage automatically on a 6 to hit (but not mortal wounds).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not enough use of Death Hex in this game, IMO. Those Custodes invulnerable saves are punishing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Sons won on points!
Sounds like I'll definitely have to watch this game from the archives (couldn't catch the game live). Did anyone that did see it notice any mechanic differences for Codex TS vs the current Index (and Codex: CSM and Deamons I guess)?
Between the Enlightened, some deep-striking stratagem, and the Dark Matter Crystal, their mobility has increased by quite a bit. On the other hand, Magnus losing his reroll to 1s on his inv save hurts.
Gents to add something here this is the notes set I took for what part of the battle report that I saw;
Magnus warlord trait is "know an additional power" he is still a Lord of War, he DOES NOT have the "re roll 1's" invulnerable aura.
Mutalith has an Invul save, it has 14 wounds, it has identical regen to daemon engines (regain 1 wound a turn), it assists units around it rolled for during the shooting phase on a random table, the table has either 3 or 6 possible outcomes (didint hear which) and re-roll assault rolls is one such outcome. The buffs are given within a certain aura.
Rubrics and Scarab Occult both gain access to spells on the aspirings, no telling if its "any" spell, or just the Tzeentch lore table.
Tzaangors now have Death to the False Emperor AND can be up to units of 40, I read that a unit of 20+ gain +1 to the "to hit" rolls.
The Legion Tactic first part is "every spell gains +6 inchs to its range" which for many spells is quite useful, due to context clues and information from the twitch casters I am under the impression it is a 2 part trait, cultists were used in the game and someone asked about the legion trait benefiting Cutlists, and one of the hosts said "oh yeah they will really benefit from being thousand sons!" or something akin to it.
Glamour of tzeentch is a new spell, -1 to hit a thousand sons unit (makes sense why they nerfed changeling now)
Doombolt is a high cast value, deals D3 mortals, AND next turn you halve the distance of the unit hit by it that is moving
Fate-caster great bows hits on 6's Negate wound roll and automatically go to damage step. SPECIFICALLY *NOT* mortal wounds, I have heard different values for Damage, one being straight 3, the other being D3 per. same with number of shots, someone mentioned D3 assault per guy (makes enough sense assault per) but we know its more then 1 per model.
The Vets of the Long war is confirmed! (YAY!)
A "deepstrike" relic is confirmed, break the relic and pic a unit within a short distance of the caster, immediately re-deepstrike that unit.
There is also a deepstrike strategem for thousand sons pre-game nominate a unit for 2 cp and they may deepstrike.
Please add or use wherever needed for this information! Fix or add to as necessary!
The deep-strike stratagem may be a way to keep Magnus safe on turn 1 if it works on him. Deep strike him in 9" away from the enemy, Warptime him on over, and charge into the (relative) safety of close combat (but don't forget to Glamour him for the -1 to hit him).
I was hoping that we'd see a return of something like the Prosperine cult arcana in this book. Based on what we saw, it doesn't look like anything like that is in there. Could be wrong, though.
There are some interesting things you can do with Stratagems though. Codex: Eldar has:
1CP Seer Council: Allows you to combine a Farseer and Warlock unit (so includes the Warlock Conclave) to add +1 to psychic tests for the psychic phase.
1CP Concordance of Power: On a Warlock Conclave unit, after successfully manifesting a [Rune of Battle] psychic power. The range of the power is now doubled.
Not to mention many more that are psychic power related.So, I can see a stratagem that allows up to 9 Sorcerers, Exalted Sorcerers, and maybe Ahriman, to gain a bonus. We'll see more in the actual codex preview, and get the new book in our dusty little hands.
Well, Chapter Approved had already given us the Cabalistic Focus stratagem. For one CP, you can get +2 to a casting roll if the psyker is within 6" of two other Sons psykers (so a healthy Magnus can pull off his super-Smite on a 6+ roll). I bet we'll keep that stratagem in the codex.
The Deep Strike stratagem in conjunction with the Dark Matter Crystal teleporting units on the board (and apparently it affects both a unit and the holder together?) opens up a slew of new tactics, and retaining access to Dark Hereticus in conjunction with those just made us one of the more surprisingly mobile armies around. The stratagem sounds like it isn't restricted to infantry so would be a great way to keep Magnus safe on turn one, and the relic can be used to launch Rubric Marines or Tzaangors forward instead with possibly a Daemon Prince in support depending on how the relic works. Rubric Marines are suddenly a lot scarier when they can just pop up in an opponents face, Warpflamers could be pretty scary if you can guarantee Warptime on that unit.
I think we can match the Khorne Bloodletter bomb in a sense, just handling it differently. The rumored Tzaangor changes are +1 to-hit in units of 20 or more, the addition of Death to the False Emperor and a raising of their unit cap to 40. If all of that is true, using the Deep Strike stratagem or teleport relic and casting some buffs on them - i.e. Weaver of Fates - then bursting into the enemy lines with the help of Warptime all the while getting +1 to charge rolls from their brayhorn is a huge deal. 40 bodies with T4 and 4+ invulnerable saves (Weaver of Fates) that have 2 Strength 4 AP-1 attacks each hitting on 2+ should rip apart nearly anything, especially as we are confirmed to have access to the Veterans of the Long war (+1 to-wound) stratagem. I'm guessing Bloodletters still hit harder overall, but Bloodletters also have to rely on a stratagem to get to a 4+ invulnerable save and they aren't T4. Bloodletters also get the fight-twice stratagem for piling in and consolidating twice to tie up more units of course; as I said, different tactics, but ours sounds like it's less stratagem intensive and more reliant on psychic powers which can be either a blessing or a curse.
Just spitballing obviously, I might be wrong but that sounds like a hell of a lot of fun! I'm also entertaining the idea of building a full unit of Rubrics with Warpflamers - maybe 20 strong - and doing the combo of Deep Strike and Warptime (which the Aspiring Sorcerer himself might get, we'll see) to toast anything in range will be fun (as you can run and shoot them, it's an effective 13+D6" range). You might not get in range of the juicy stuff behind the bubble-wrap, but the bubble-wrap won't survive and charging those Rubrics is a nightmare for most. That and 20 Rubrics with possible Weaver of Fates is tough as nails. 600 points and not much they can do to a lot of things, obviously, but still a hell of a lot of fun Besides, if I'm right about the post I made in the other thread, we're getting points drops on these guys anyway (basically, the army list used in that game makes it look very likely we're getting points drops to our unique units)
Of note regarding the "Skyfires" (Enlightened with bows), 6s to-hit apparently bypass saves and go straight to the Damage roll (which is apparently D3 or 3), but are worded to not be mortal wounds so they don't spill over. Depending on the wording of the rule, Prescience may affect that ability and trigger those special hits on 5s.
Haechi wrote: Somebody said pa-1 for Tzaangor blades as well. If that's true, added to everything else, there's now way they're still 7 points each ^^.
liking the look of a lot of this, the skyfires being useful. sergeant-sorcerors getting proper powers mitigates smite nerf just fine.
Second discipline seems appropriate and shows off our psychic prowess.
Movement is improved with deep strike relic/strategems and retaining access to warptime.
Our 'chaff' is a reasonably decent unit and we still have cultists and brims for when we want proper chaff to just stand on objectives or get in peoples way.
I think in conjunction with the tzeentch daemons we could have a decent book on our hands.
lash92 wrote: Do we know if the -1 to hit spell is only working against shooting or also against melee?
So far it said shooting only.
Ok. So I am getting it right that Magnus will have a 3++ and a -1 to hit with ease? Seems pretty good imo.
not if you go second. 4++ and no -1. And no re-rolling of 1.
If you are putting Magnus on the table in a situation where your opponent will have a reasonable chance of shooting him to death if he gets turn 1, you are using magnus wrong. Dude's got access to 2 different deep strike stratagems now if the previews are to be believed.
You're up against a gunline, you deep strike Magnus so you can plop him down, get his powers off, and warptime his giant red butt into combat with a bunch of expensive stuff.
lash92 wrote: Do we know if the -1 to hit spell is only working against shooting or also against melee?
So far it said shooting only.
Ok. So I am getting it right that Magnus will have a 3++ and a -1 to hit with ease? Seems pretty good imo.
not if you go second. 4++ and no -1. And no re-rolling of 1.
If you are putting Magnus on the table in a situation where your opponent will have a reasonable chance of shooting him to death if he gets turn 1, you are using magnus wrong. Dude's got access to 2 different deep strike stratagems now if the previews are to be believed.
You're up against a gunline, you deep strike Magnus so you can plop him down, get his powers off, and warptime his giant red butt into combat with a bunch of expensive stuff.
It sounds like GW is going to FAQ the Daemon codex to disallow Magnus and Mortarion from using the deep-strike stratagem in it. It remains to be seen whether Magnus can use the deep strike stratagem that apparently will be in the actual Thousand Sons codex.
lash92 wrote: Do we know if the -1 to hit spell is only working against shooting or also against melee?
So far it said shooting only.
Ok. So I am getting it right that Magnus will have a 3++ and a -1 to hit with ease? Seems pretty good imo.
not if you go second. 4++ and no -1. And no re-rolling of 1.
If you are putting Magnus on the table in a situation where your opponent will have a reasonable chance of shooting him to death if he gets turn 1, you are using magnus wrong. Dude's got access to 2 different deep strike stratagems now if the previews are to be believed.
You're up against a gunline, you deep strike Magnus so you can plop him down, get his powers off, and warptime his giant red butt into combat with a bunch of expensive stuff.
It sounds like GW is going to FAQ the Daemon codex to disallow Magnus and Mortarion from using the deep-strike stratagem in it. It remains to be seen whether Magnus can use the deep strike stratagem that apparently will be in the actual Thousand Sons codex.
This is true, if the stratagem is worded differently from how it is described above in the leak (2cp to deep strike a unit) then magnus won't be able to use it. If it works as described, then he will.
If Magnus can use it, I absolutely agree with you, by the way. Against a shooty army, keep him off the table on turn 1 and drop him into their back line.
Honestly, I think Eddie should have done that in the game against the Custodes. He could have dropped Magnus in the backfield and eaten that Venerable Landraider. It looks like that would have taken care of the only real potential threat to Eddie's Predator, which could then move out and zap the bikes.
Captyn_Bob wrote: The eldar Webway stratagem is infantry and bikes Only, wouldn't be surprised if the Thousand Sons one was the same.
It's interesting, because we have at least two examples. The Eldar stratagem is limited, as you point out, but the Daemon stratagem is not (well, apparently it's only supposed to be usable by stuff actually in the Daemon codex, but you get my point).
ArtyomTrityak wrote: we NEED some protection for turn 1 heavy long range shooting. If turn 1 Magnus dies or has 5w left - we're done
Truer words were never written. It's crippling to have almost a quarter of your army (points-wise) capable of being vaporized on turn 1 without any way to protect it.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: we NEED some protection for turn 1 heavy long range shooting. If turn 1 Magnus dies or has 5w left - we're done
Truer words were never written. It's crippling to have almost a quarter of your army (points-wise) capable of being vaporized on turn 1 without any way to protect it.
That's just how the game works. That's a problem for every army. There aren't many ways to protect your army. Transports, we have. Deep Strike, we have. Shield Drones, alright, not that one. But that's it.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: we NEED some protection for turn 1 heavy long range shooting. If turn 1 Magnus dies or has 5w left - we're done
Truer words were never written. It's crippling to have almost a quarter of your army (points-wise) capable of being vaporized on turn 1 without any way to protect it.
That's just how the game works. That's a problem for every army. There aren't many ways to protect your army. Transports, we have. Deep Strike, we have. Shield Drones, alright, not that one. But that's it.
Maybe, but for many other armies with models of comparable importance to them as Magnus is to a Sons army, there are other methods of protection as well. Important characters can often be bubble-wrapped (up to and including Guilliman). Greater Daemons can deep-strike in. Important vehicles can be taken in multiples. Even Mortarion can have Deathshrouds tank for him. Magnus, however, is flapping in the breeze. In the past, his reroll and the presence of the Changeling could at least help a little with his first turn survivability, but both of those are gone now.
I'm in the same boat, Magnus isn't *that* durable without Weaver of Fates and re-rolling 1s up, though that new -1 to-hit power should help a bit if we get first turn. The Thousand Sons Deep Strike stratagem costing 2CP is....potentially strange depending on whether it's a flat 2CP no matter what or if it works like the Chaos Daemon one, seeing as most (all?) other Deep Strike stratagems have been 1CP or variable CP depending on power level or number of units utilising the stratagem. I'm guessing the reason ours is 2CP is hopefully it's not restricted to certain unit types and is identical to the Chaos Daemon one, but we'll see.
My guess is that it's a variable cost like the daemons stratagem; 30 tzaangors are 10 PL in the index and therefore would cost 2 CP if it works the same as the daemons stratagem.
I made up my mind and decided to start TS as my second army!
I just bought 20 rubrics marines which look incredibly gorgeous!!! and I also have the burning of prospero Ahriman model
I guess I'll wait until the codex is out to build a 1000 points army but surely i ll field these 20 beautiful models no matter what!
I made up my mind and decided to start TS as my second army!
I just bought 20 rubrics marines which look incredibly gorgeous!!! and I also have the burning of prospero Ahriman model
I guess I'll wait until the codex is out to build a 1000 points army but surely i ll field these 20 beautiful models no matter what!
Go ahead and start building They likely won't change. 5 man squads with an Aspiring Sorc leader. Get the Exalted Sorc box and build you some extra Aspiring Sorcs to lead the other two squads. Put 1-2 warp flamers depending on your taste and the Soul Reaper.
I made up my mind and decided to start TS as my second army!
I just bought 20 rubrics marines which look incredibly gorgeous!!! and I also have the burning of prospero Ahriman model
I guess I'll wait until the codex is out to build a 1000 points army but surely i ll field these 20 beautiful models no matter what!
Go ahead and start building They likely won't change. 5 man squads with an Aspiring Sorc leader. Get the Exalted Sorc box and build you some extra Aspiring Sorcs to lead the other two squads. Put 1-2 warp flamers depending on your taste and the Soul Reaper.
I don't have the chaos space marine codex which I won't buy for obvious reasons but isn't the soul reaper cannon available only if the squad are composed of 10 models?
I made up my mind and decided to start TS as my second army!
I just bought 20 rubrics marines which look incredibly gorgeous!!! and I also have the burning of prospero Ahriman model
I guess I'll wait until the codex is out to build a 1000 points army but surely i ll field these 20 beautiful models no matter what!
Go ahead and start building They likely won't change. 5 man squads with an Aspiring Sorc leader. Get the Exalted Sorc box and build you some extra Aspiring Sorcs to lead the other two squads. Put 1-2 warp flamers depending on your taste and the Soul Reaper.
I don't have the chaos space marine codex which I won't buy for obvious reasons but isn't the soul reaper cannon available only if the squad are composed of 10 models?
nope. I still suggest you buy the dex just because you never know what you'll want to do and it might come in handy. It's 1 for the first 5 models, then you can include a second if you have 20 Rubrics.
18 spells to choose from, Id imagine that the Daemon Lore will be limited to models with the Daemon keyword meaning that Ahirman on disc, exalted on disc, Magnus, and Daemon Princes, as well as the Tzaangor shaman will be the ones that have access to the Daemon lore.
That is of course conjecture but it makes enough sense.
It looks as if the Enlightened are 2 wounds with (probably) T5, the hope is that this bleeds over to every model riding a disc; +1T and +1 wound.....would certainy make exalted on discs far more attractive.
So the Enlightened are 2 Wounds each after all? That's great for numerous reasons; it means my original predicted price points for them (20+) should be accurate, which then also means that unless the Shaman and Mutalith are under-priced based on what we can speculate about their abilities, there have indeed been points drops for some of our other unique units! Also, having 2 Wounds each and T5 makes them seriously hard to shift, Glamour of Tzeentch and Weaver of Fates stacked on them will make plasma-spam cry.
Us getting a full 18 spells is also incredible, so I'm curious to see who can access what.
Automatically Appended Next Post: New information generously provided by xxhikaru123.
xxhikaru123 wrote: Skyfires are 2W. 2 S5 -1 1 dmg guns.
BS/WS3 5++
Shaman gives them +1 to hit.
51 points with greatbow FOR 3.
They have 3 options:
Chainsword & Bolt Pistol (?)
Great Bow
and a spear, i forgot exact stats but it does 2 dmg on charge.
Disc do 1 attack , S4 0 1
Sergeant does 3 A, each Tzaangor 2A.
So a unit of 3 does 10A.
Magnus went up by 30 points.
xxhikaru123 wrote: the skyfires are incredible but are very very glassy.
With Shaman aura, 2+ to hit (reroll 1s near a DP), auto wound on a 5+ (with shaman). 24" range, 36" inch effective (12" fly).
Pretty much auto-include for me in some numbers but not too many.
Assault , so you can even stand at 37" , shoot at 4+ after advancing (minimally 1") &/or hit on 3+ with a shaman, so why not.
6 wounds 5++. a sneeze will kill them
xxhikaru123 wrote: Ask the rest who have seen me post on my reliability, who cares about listening hard on a stream?
Mutalith are about 150.
Shaman is 80-90, i forgot.
Vast majority of units did not get any point changes. Some weapons went down abit, some characters went up, all within 5 pt difference.
You should not have any net gain or lose of points using any of the current units.
Lots of interesting stuff! Confirmation of a bunch of details.
I'm thinking the "Skyfire" Enlightened are looking really solid for their points. 17 points per model, you pay +10 points over a Tzaangor for +1 Wound, +1 Toughness, +6" move, +1 Attack per model, the ever important Fly keyword, presumably the Daemon keyword (for stratagems and powers) and a 24" nasty ranged weapon at the cost of AP-1 on your melee attacks. They sound pretty competitively priced for what they do.
Also confirmation that the Shaman at the very least gives them a +1 on to-hit rolls, triggering the auto-wounds on 5s which is nasty; it's likely he provides the +1 for other Tzaangors but it could be an AoS situation where the Skyfires uniquely get +1 to-hit and regular Tzaangors don't.
The points changes have me excited, specifically the bit about weapons.
This gives us confirmation on the Webway stratagem, that it only effects Thousand Sons Infantry units. So, great for a unit of Rubrics with flamers, or a 30+ unit of Tzaangors, but we can't use it on Magnus to protect him, or send a Helbrute (or take your pick of another large beasty) to flank an opponent and charge their face.
1. No protection for Magnus, also he went 30 pts up lol
2. Deepstrike only infantry and heavy relying on Warptime - cast on 6, can be denied or failed to cast.
3. Legion Trait +6' cast range is kinda lol
Am i missing something and TS will be great again?
1) Meh, Magnus is fine but in competitive will suffer, I expected that to begin with honestly. I think Mortarion will also have a similar nerf coming at some point depending. I hope Guilliman gets hit with a truck.
2) Deepstrike x3 if you wish not including other deepstriking options... I think were fine on mobility, Warptime is the cherry at this point, not the whole sundae.
3) Legion trait I have used in 3 test games once it was verified by the commentators in the Twitch stream, if you play Thousand Sons it is incredibly useful, it allows for a much wider variety of placement and movement. in "crunch" for data it doesn't look like much, on the table however it has a HUGE effect.
-20 Rubric Marines in range for rapid fire, casting prescience on themselves... No need for flamers.
-40 Tzaangors declaring charges on everything, making it with their +1, and then attacking a second time.
-Teleporting Rubrics out of combat without counting as having disangaged, or being able to clutch cap an objective late game for the win with Dark Crystal.
I'm sold already. I don't care about Magnus being good or bed, this codex is going to be awesome with or without him.
Not certain what you were expecting honestly; everything seems pretty good to me overall so far.
It is the will of Dakka that salt masters be in every thread to complain about a specific issue or two in a codex and then declare it bad. With no regard for how it effects the game in totality. If it isn't game breaking, it's terrabad. Because then they can't just roflstomp everyone for free.
Not certain what you were expecting honestly; everything seems pretty good to me overall so far.
It is the will of Dakka that salt masters be in every thread to complain about a specific issue or two in a codex and then declare it bad. With no regard for how it effects the game in totality. If it isn't game breaking, it's terrabad. Because then they can't just roflstomp everyone for free.
Point well taken. I keep wondering what some of these people are smoking saying that this stuff comes anywhere near close to bad
Additionally, we’re still waiting on previews of Warlord traits. The current GW trend seems to split the warlord traits between selfish and army buffing. So, I can see a 9” re-roll on perils.
The unit previews are what I’m really looking forward to are related to ‘Aspiring Sorcerers’ and if they get All is Dust or not (officially), and if they have to augment their psychic rolls at all (like a -1 or whatever). And psychic Hellbrutes. I want me some psychic Hellbrutes that operate as characters (similar to how BA have theirs).
In regards to Dark Matter Crystal, remember that since Magnus is a named character (along with Ahriman) he can’t take a relic.
Haechi wrote: -20 Rubric Marines in range for rapid fire, casting prescience on themselves... No need for flamers.
-40 Tzaangors declaring charges on everything, making it with their +1, and then attacking a second time.
-Teleporting Rubrics out of combat without counting as having disangaged, or being able to clutch cap an objective late game for the win with Dark Crystal.
I'm sold already. I don't care about Magnus being good or bed, this codex is going to be awesome with or without him.
Right there with you, 20 rubrics deep strike in, unload, and if they get charged break the crystal and move them back again and unload again. Jesus that's some effective firepower.
I have to get some more rubrics painted. A pure tsons army of 40+ rubrics and basic sorcerers looks like it's going to be very effective and hard to pin down early game.
Haechi wrote: -20 Rubric Marines in range for rapid fire, casting prescience on themselves... No need for flamers.
-40 Tzaangors declaring charges on everything, making it with their +1, and then attacking a second time.
-Teleporting Rubrics out of combat without counting as having disangaged, or being able to clutch cap an objective late game for the win with Dark Crystal.
I'm sold already. I don't care about Magnus being good or bad, this codex is going to be awesome with or without him.
Do you not play with CP re-rolls? Quite the oddity. I myself save the re-roll per phase for just that occasion! rarely ever do I perils.
We have an innate re-roll mechanic in the army through tzeentch daemons, and also have Magnus, and then probably some form of Strategem. got a Crap-ton we havent seen yet.
BoomWolf wrote: Well, no.
You keep 1 point to give your rubric block VotLW
Anyway, uncomfiermed rumors about aura changes are the real reason why magnus just became a monster unlike any other.
Spoiler:
Magnus the Red:
Primarch of the TS (re-roll 1s to hit aura, re-roll 1s for Psychic Tests aura)
Ahriman:
+1 Invul, so 3++ now (via fixed warlord trait)
Re-roll 1s to hit for TS aura
Lol okay fine. Better hope you don't perils though
This is where you guys are lacking imagination-TACTICAL PERILS!
You use perils AS A WEAPON.
Got my dudes stuck in CC? I smite you. perils? oh well, guess we both blow up.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Love the Spawn strategems. This is exactly what I wanted for CSM or Death Guard. I've been replacing Spawn from my army with Plague Drones.
Ive also been trying to find a way to fit my Beastmen models into a Chaos list, so... Looks like I've been ensnared into Tzeentch after all...
Just as planned.... Couldn't resist lol.
I love the spawn stratagem as well, that's just such a neat idea, reminds me of the old "greater deamons pop out of a charecters body to bring it to the battlefield" rules.
Now I have a good purpose for my custom centaur / space marine spawn models.
Ahriman21 wrote: Do you not play with CP re-rolls? Quite the oddity. I myself save the re-roll per phase for just that occasion! rarely ever do I perils.
We have an innate re-roll mechanic in the army through tzeentch daemons, and also have Magnus, and then probably some form of Strategem. got a Crap-ton we haven't seen yet.
Please pay attention.
Haechi wrote: -20 Rubric Marines in range for rapid fire, casting prescience on themselves... No need for flamers.
-40 Tzaangors declaring charges on everything, making it with their +1, and then attacking a second time.
-Teleporting Rubrics out of combat without counting as having disangaged, or being able to clutch cap an objective late game for the win with Dark Crystal.
I'm sold already. I don't care about Magnus being good or bed, this codex is going to be awesome with or without him.
This is what were talking about 800 points already spent, you have 1 HQ 2 Troops which gets you 3 CP.
BoomWolf wrote: Well, no.
You keep 1 point to give your rubric block VotLW
Anyway, uncomfiermed rumors about aura changes are the real reason why magnus just became a monster unlike any other.
Spoiler:
Magnus the Red:
Primarch of the TS (re-roll 1s to hit aura, re-roll 1s for Psychic Tests aura)
Ahriman:
+1 Invul, so 3++ now (via fixed warlord trait)
Re-roll 1s to hit for TS aura
Lol okay fine. Better hope you don't perils though
This is where you guys are lacking imagination-TACTICAL PERILS!
You use perils AS A WEAPON.
Got my dudes stuck in CC? I smite you. perils? oh well, guess we both blow up.
Which would be fine if you could do it on demand but we can't (as of now). Adding that would also probably cause a fairly large points bump, since your getting a mortal wound bomb.
Well one thing that could be useful is a large blob of Rubric Marines. Drop 20 of them within Rapid Fire range, cast Prescience and use VotLW, for 2+ to hit with an increased chance to wound. With a DP or Magnus near them for the reroll, you're pretty much going to get 40 hits (not including special weapons). Wounding on 4+s against T7 means 20 wounds at -2AP is going to ruin somethings day. Downside being, of course, is that they are very costly. Thankfully, splitting your fire can prevent overkill and thus manage those points a bit better. If they get caught in melee, use the Crystal to peace out.
Another thing you could do is Webway a massive blob of Tzaangors, Warptime them (assuming they keep the Heretic Astartes keyword) to get your charge in and then fight a second time for 2 more CP. Simple but effective. Plus you can tie up a lot of units with a massive blob depending on enemy deployment (and how you drop them).
That is of course, looking at things in a vacuum. Quite frankly I doubt I would take either of those methods. I'm thinking my army would make use of the Skyfires and buffing them up with Prescience and a Shaman for 4+ auto wounds. In addition, my army contains 2x Decimators with Soulburner Petards. They are outrageously awesome at dealing copious amounts of mortal wounds and are still very resilient. Each one, on average, does about 8MW a turn at 24" which in pairs just starts deleting units if they aren't focused down (they don't degrade). They start making their points back really fast if left unmolested. Another good thing about having those units is that they are very dangerous and will oft draw fire away from a certain primarch who did nothing wrong, allowing him to melt faces.
I am no master strategist, but one thing I try to do is think about the actual situations things will be in (and how I can put them in the ideal ones). Mathhammer is all well and good and can help decide what definitely not to do, like shoot autopistols at a Land Raider, but there's more to it than just numbers. Gotta think outside the pyramid
I think with this new codex, we are going to have a massive amount of synergy between types of units, be it marines, Tzaangors, and Daemons. I'm really excited to learn more.
Oh and Magnus should definitely take Temporal Manipulation. Regenerating wounds on a WC6? That's awesome!
I never liked wound regeneration much in this game.
You are usually either not needing it, or too far down it doesn't matter.
Now I need to figure out a use for the darn spawn stratagem. is it just me, or even a last-wound sorcerer is STILL better than a spawn and there is no real reason to ever use the flesh-change?
Fated mutation can be useful if you got a large pack of spawn running around , but flesh change is just derp. I'd probably not even use it if it was 0CP
Haechi wrote: -20 Rubric Marines in range for rapid fire, casting prescience on themselves... No need for flamers.
-40 Tzaangors declaring charges on everything, making it with their +1, and then attacking a second time.
-Teleporting Rubrics out of combat without counting as having disangaged, or being able to clutch cap an objective late game for the win with Dark Crystal.
I'm sold already. I don't care about Magnus being good or bad, this codex is going to be awesome with or without him.
Nah, you're about right. If you changed a Chaos Sorcerer to a Chaos Spawn, you'd be going from a 3+ to a 5+ save, going to 4 wounds (so gaining 3 back if you were on your last one), and dropping from a 3+ to 4+ WS. The benefit to the stratagem is that it can be used at the start of any phase, even your opponents. It may not be a good choice in the scenario described, but I can see a option that you charge in a sorcerer in terminator armor, eat the overwatch, charge another melee unit in now, then at the start of the fight phase you morph that sorcerer into a chaos spawn, and now you have a chaos spawn in melee, able to dish a little damage. Sadly, even then, it's not something I would make large plans around.
The Flesh-Change stratagem does bring two major questions to mind: Since the character is slain, if they have any active buffs on them (Prescience, invuln save, etc.) is that retained on the newly created Chaos Spawn? And doe sthe Chaos Spawn count as having charged for purposes of attack priority if the former character charged before the stratagem was used? My personal thoughts are 1) No, as the character was slain; 2) No, for the same reason. However, if we're getting our own version of a Chaos Spawn, or if another army wide bonus buffs them, those answers could change.
BoomWolf wrote: I never liked wound regeneration much in this game.
You are usually either not needing it, or too far down it doesn't matter.
Now I need to figure out a use for the darn spawn stratagem. is it just me, or even a last-wound sorcerer is STILL better than a spawn and there is no real reason to ever use the flesh-change?
Fated mutation can be useful if you got a large pack of spawn running around , but flesh change is just derp. I'd probably not even use it if it was 0CP
Well, it's definitely a rare use kind of thing, but I can think of two things :
First, remember you can use it at the beginning of any phase, not just your turn, so I'm thinking pop it at the beginning of the shooting or melee phase, when you know your opponent has the opportunity to either one shot or finish a wounded character.
Second, if he has the assassinate or witch hunter card this turn, straight out deny him that once you've seen which character he's planning to go after.
Fringe uses but it has them, the key is that it is spawned within 6" of the character and without any restriction on the distance to the enemy. This means that even flyers can be stopped from shooting. You got a fireraptor in your lines ready to fire? Sacrifice a char and put a spawn in CC with it at the start of the shooting phase, now it cannot fire.
Don't want an enemy to make an important charge? Pop a char and put them in melee or put the spawn in the charge path.
Or again, something important is in smite danger? Put a spawn in front of it.
There are many interesting uses, no one is going to win you the game (maybe the first one), but it's a nice tool.
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Tuluth wrote: Nah, you're about right. If you changed a Chaos Sorcerer to a Chaos Spawn, you'd be going from a 3+ to a 5+ save, going to 4 wounds (so gaining 3 back if you were on your last one), and dropping from a 3+ to 4+ WS. The benefit to the stratagem is that it can be used at the start of any phase, even your opponents. It may not be a good choice in the scenario described, but I can see a option that you charge in a sorcerer in terminator armor, eat the overwatch, charge another melee unit in now, then at the start of the fight phase you morph that sorcerer into a chaos spawn, and now you have a chaos spawn in melee, able to dish a little damage. Sadly, even then, it's not something I would make large plans around.
The Flesh-Change stratagem does bring two major questions to mind: Since the character is slain, if they have any active buffs on them (Prescience, invuln save, etc.) is that retained on the newly created Chaos Spawn? And doe sthe Chaos Spawn count as having charged for purposes of attack priority if the former character charged before the stratagem was used? My personal thoughts are 1) No, as the character was slain; 2) No, for the same reason. However, if we're getting our own version of a Chaos Spawn, or if another army wide bonus buffs them, those answers could change.
Let's see if we cannot use Tzangoor Shamans for this.
anticitizen013 wrote: Well one thing that could be useful is a large blob of Rubric Marines. Drop 20 of them within Rapid Fire range, cast Prescience and use VotLW, for 2+ to hit with an increased chance to wound. With a DP or Magnus near them for the reroll, you're pretty much going to get 40 hits (not including special weapons). Wounding on 4+s against T7 means 20 wounds at -2AP is going to ruin somethings day. Downside being, of course, is that they are very costly. Thankfully, splitting your fire can prevent overkill and thus manage those points a bit better. If they get caught in melee, use the Crystal to peace out.
Yeah thats good, but a shaman and some skyfires can get the same effect, and since they have fly you dont need to use the relic either. Plus they are about 50 points cheaper.
anticitizen013 wrote: Another thing you could do is Webway a massive blob of Tzaangors, Warptime them (assuming they keep the Heretic Astartes keyword) to get your charge in and then fight a second time for 2 more CP. Simple but effective. Plus you can tie up a lot of units with a massive blob depending on enemy deployment (and how you drop them).
Im sure they will keep the keyword no reason not to. But that is a lot of CP to blow on turn 1.
anticitizen013 wrote: That is of course, looking at things in a vacuum. Quite frankly I doubt I would take either of those methods. I'm thinking my army would make use of the Skyfires and buffing them up with Prescience and a Shaman for 4+ auto wounds. In addition, my army contains 2x Decimators with Soulburner Petards. They are outrageously awesome at dealing copious amounts of mortal wounds and are still very resilient. Each one, on average, does about 8MW a turn at 24" which in pairs just starts deleting units if they aren't focused down (they don't degrade). They start making their points back really fast if left unmolested. Another good thing about having those units is that they are very dangerous and will oft draw fire away from a certain primarch who did nothing wrong, allowing him to melt faces.
LoL well yes lots of people like to run magnus but not my cup of tea, dont like large models takes away from the tactics aspect. Keep in mind Magnus is a glass cannon most of his points cost comes from damage output, if you can can 2 turn out of magnus before he dies, you can take out 1k in points easy.
anticitizen013 wrote: I am no master strategist, but one thing I try to do is think about the actual situations things will be in (and how I can put them in the ideal ones). Mathhammer is all well and good and can help decide what definitely not to do, like shoot autopistols at a Land Raider, but there's more to it than just numbers. Gotta think outside the pyramid
It's all about drawing your enemy in and making them think they will win. Can't tell you how many times I have had enemies charge a units of Rubrics kill 2-3 and end thier turn with a satisfied look on thier face only to have me dump 3-4 smites + 1-2 smite lights into the enemy and wipe the whole squad, then warptime the squad up so its still in range for flamer/rapidfire.
When it comes to tactics all you have to do is know how to make a thing its opposite, after that its all about when to do it.
anticitizen013 wrote: I think with this new codex, we are going to have a massive amount of synergy between types of units, be it marines, Tzaangors, and Daemons. I'm really excited to learn more.
I hope so I have never minded running Daemons with my TS oddly enough.
anticitizen013 wrote: Oh and Magnus should definitely take Temporal Manipulation. Regenerating wounds on a WC6? That's awesome!
Well yes problem is Magnus has the tendency to die in one turn. Which makes healing him hard.
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BoomWolf wrote: I never liked wound regeneration much in this game.
You are usually either not needing it, or too far down it doesn't matter.
Now I need to figure out a use for the darn spawn stratagem. is it just me, or even a last-wound sorcerer is STILL better than a spawn and there is no real reason to ever use the flesh-change?
Fated mutation can be useful if you got a large pack of spawn running around , but flesh change is just derp. I'd probably not even use it if it was 0CP
1.) +1 inch movement can be the difference of having an okay chance and an almoat guarnteed chance to get some where.
2.) HQ unit is in CC and 1 W remaining you can wait till thier Fight phase, then do it now hes got 4 T5 wounds rather then 1 T4.
3.) Hopping over an enemy line if need be( remember it allows you to place it withing 6" of the model) which can get you into CC with something that wants to shoot.
3.) Hopping over an enemy line if need be( remember it allows you to place it withing 6" of the model) which can get you into CC with something that wants to shoot.
That one is actually brilliant. Charge a wall of conscripts, then hara-kiri your character, and pop the Spawn 6" behind the line, locking in CC a Manticore or a Lascannon team or whatever. Love it.
3.) Hopping over an enemy line if need be( remember it allows you to place it withing 6" of the model) which can get you into CC with something that wants to shoot.
That one is actually brilliant. Charge a wall of conscripts, then hara-kiri your character, and pop the Spawn 6" behind the line, locking in CC a Manticore or a Lascannon team or whatever. Love it.
Just be sure you do it in thier shooting phase to make it worth while.
I have always been a fan of TS aesthetic and lore, although since none plays them in my meta I have no clue where about their crunch. With the release of the codex I have a couple of questions:
1.My current army is Grey Knights, since they seem to be both psyker heavy armies, is their gameplay identical?
2. A friend of mine thinking about starting Custodes proposed to me to split the Burning of Prospero box, me keeping Marine stuff and he the Custodes and Sisters. Do you think the things on that box are of any use to start a TS army? I can use Ahriman as a sorceror but dunno if TS field "normal" chaos marines and Tartaros Termis(fluff wise it doesn't make sense I know), tbh I would rather no use them as classic TS Rubric marine and Termis as I like the aesthetic of the proper ones and would like to field them eventually
GuardStrider wrote: I have always been a fan of TS aesthetic and lore, although since none plays them in my meta I have no clue where about their crunch. With the release of the codex I have a couple of questions:
1.My current army is Grey Knights, since they seem to be both psyker heavy armies, is their gameplay identical?
2. A friend of mine thinking about starting Custodes proposed to me to split the Burning of Prospero box, me keeping Marine stuff and he the Custodes and Sisters. Do you think the things on that box are of any use to start a TS army? I can use Ahriman as a sorceror but dunno if TS field "normal" chaos marines and Tartaros Termis(fluff wise it doesn't make sense I know), tbh I would rather no use them as classic TS Rubric marine and Termis as I like the aesthetic of the proper ones and would like to field them eventually
1.) Um no.
2.) You can use most of it SOT I beleive are Tartaros Pattern.
For right now I would say wait for the codex to drop playtest with some proxies first then go from there. TS have a wide variety of synergies to pull from. CSM and Daemons, to start you need to figure out what you want on the table before you start purchasing stuff.
The skyfires not "having to" deep strike is a liability, actually, as you point out regarding magnus: they tend to die in one turn. Usually the first one, if you fail the roll to go first. Skyfires cause similar damage to VOTLW'ing rubrics without spending CP, it's true (it about evens out between the auto-wounds from the skyfires causing a good deal more wounds up front and the extra AP that the rubrics get causing less saves) but they're more risky as you have to put them on the board to get shot at with anti infantry dakka turn 1.
the_scotsman wrote: The skyfires not "having to" deep strike is a liability, actually, as you point out regarding magnus: they tend to die in one turn. Usually the first one, if you fail the roll to go first. Skyfires cause similar damage to VOTLW'ing rubrics without spending CP, it's true (it about evens out between the auto-wounds from the skyfires causing a good deal more wounds up front and the extra AP that the rubrics get causing less saves) but they're more risky as you have to put them on the board to get shot at with anti infantry dakka turn 1.
This is why I shall be using both!
Find a nice medium for list building with the new dex, we should have enough threat saturation on the table where its not to big of a deal. Hopefully.
GuardStrider wrote: I have always been a fan of TS aesthetic and lore, although since none plays them in my meta I have no clue where about their crunch. With the release of the codex I have a couple of questions:
1.My current army is Grey Knights, since they seem to be both psyker heavy armies, is their gameplay identical?
2. A friend of mine thinking about starting Custodes proposed to me to split the Burning of Prospero box, me keeping Marine stuff and he the Custodes and Sisters. Do you think the things on that box are of any use to start a TS army? I can use Ahriman as a sorceror but dunno if TS field "normal" chaos marines and Tartaros Termis(fluff wise it doesn't make sense I know), tbh I would rather no use them as classic TS Rubric marine and Termis as I like the aesthetic of the proper ones and would like to field them eventually
1-not really. While Knights are more of an assault force with added psyker damage, the sons are more shooty with screens of low value units and using psykers mostly for tactical effects rather than pure damage output.
2-that's mostly what I did. Ahriman being ahriman, the marines being rubrics. You'll need some sword bits for the terminators to make them into scarab occult though, and a staff for the scarab sorcerer. You might also want some bits for turning marines into proper aspiring sorcerers, or heavy bits for making true sorcerers. Also forgeworld rotor cannons make perfect soulreaper cannons.
the_scotsman wrote: The skyfires not "having to" deep strike is a liability, actually, as you point out regarding magnus: they tend to die in one turn. Usually the first one, if you fail the roll to go first. Skyfires cause similar damage to VOTLW'ing rubrics without spending CP, it's true (it about evens out between the auto-wounds from the skyfires causing a good deal more wounds up front and the extra AP that the rubrics get causing less saves) but they're more risky as you have to put them on the board to get shot at with anti infantry dakka turn 1.
Yeah, but if there on disks you can LoS them for the first turn and then move them up 12( 24 with warptime) unload and charge, more then likely making thier points back in a single turn.
Also am I the only person that struggles when having to choose what to cast diabolical strength on?
With Magnus wounding everything in the game on 2's anyways I don't think he's a great target. You pretty much always want to put it on a daemon prince, IMO.
A single fiend is probably a good idea though.
Daemonforge is practically one of the most efficient stratagems out there, only rivaled by things hitting large squads.
I've loved my helbrute with scourge and fist. Makes a mess of things if they make it to the front lines. Warp Time and Diabolic Str work very well together
the_scotsman wrote: The skyfires not "having to" deep strike is a liability, actually, as you point out regarding magnus: they tend to die in one turn. Usually the first one, if you fail the roll to go first. Skyfires cause similar damage to VOTLW'ing rubrics without spending CP, it's true (it about evens out between the auto-wounds from the skyfires causing a good deal more wounds up front and the extra AP that the rubrics get causing less saves) but they're more risky as you have to put them on the board to get shot at with anti infantry dakka turn 1.
Yeah, but if there on disks you can LoS them for the first turn and then move them up 12( 24 with warptime) unload and charge, more then likely making thier points back in a single turn.
Also am I the only person that struggles when having to choose what to cast diabolical strength on?
1) you can, but they're pretty tall, so LOS is a challenge, which you don't have to deal with if you deep strike something. After all, you can "just" LOS magnus so that he doesn't get killed by lascannons turn 1, so whats the big deal him not having deep strike? Given that you get exactly 1 warptime, and you've probably got better targets for it (magnus, some scarab occult, 40 tzaangors, a daemon prince, a maulerfiend/defiler/dreadnought/whatever) you're unlikely to be warptiming a little skyfire squad with bows just to try and make use of their S4 AP- attacks in melee. Most deployment zones being 24", you're not charging without warptime, and just in shooting they kill roughly 1 guardsman or half a marine each assuming they have the 2+ to hit buff. You're not making their 17 points back in one turn unless you're up against Deathwatch on foot.
2) Daemon prince or if you bring one, a mauler/helbrute are the best targets in my book. Magnus mostly wounds stuff on 2s anyway, but he can take the extra attack. Daemon prince is the obvious target since he can just take the spell himself and it takes Talons up to wounding T7 on 3s.
the_scotsman wrote: The skyfires not "having to" deep strike is a liability, actually, as you point out regarding magnus: they tend to die in one turn. Usually the first one, if you fail the roll to go first. Skyfires cause similar damage to VOTLW'ing rubrics without spending CP, it's true (it about evens out between the auto-wounds from the skyfires causing a good deal more wounds up front and the extra AP that the rubrics get causing less saves) but they're more risky as you have to put them on the board to get shot at with anti infantry dakka turn 1.
Yeah, but if there on disks you can LoS them for the first turn and then move them up 12( 24 with warptime) unload and charge, more then likely making thier points back in a single turn.
Also am I the only person that struggles when having to choose what to cast diabolical strength on?
1) you can, but they're pretty tall, so LOS is a challenge, which you don't have to deal with if you deep strike something. After all, you can "just" LOS magnus so that he doesn't get killed by lascannons turn 1, so whats the big deal him not having deep strike? Given that you get exactly 1 warptime, and you've probably got better targets for it (magnus, some scarab occult, 40 tzaangors, a daemon prince, a maulerfiend/defiler/dreadnought/whatever) you're unlikely to be warptiming a little skyfire squad with bows just to try and make use of their S4 AP- attacks in melee. Most deployment zones being 24", you're not charging without warptime, and just in shooting they kill roughly 1 guardsman or half a marine each assuming they have the 2+ to hit buff. You're not making their 17 points back in one turn unless you're up against Deathwatch on foot.
2) Daemon prince or if you bring one, a mauler/helbrute are the best targets in my book. Magnus mostly wounds stuff on 2s anyway, but he can take the extra attack. Daemon prince is the obvious target since he can just take the spell himself and it takes Talons up to wounding T7 on 3s.
the_scotsman wrote: The skyfires not "having to" deep strike is a liability, actually, as you point out regarding magnus: they tend to die in one turn. Usually the first one, if you fail the roll to go first. Skyfires cause similar damage to VOTLW'ing rubrics without spending CP, it's true (it about evens out between the auto-wounds from the skyfires causing a good deal more wounds up front and the extra AP that the rubrics get causing less saves) but they're more risky as you have to put them on the board to get shot at with anti infantry dakka turn 1.
Yeah, but if there on disks you can LoS them for the first turn and then move them up 12( 24 with warptime) unload and charge, more then likely making thier points back in a single turn.
Also am I the only person that struggles when having to choose what to cast diabolical strength on?
1) you can, but they're pretty tall, so LOS is a challenge, which you don't have to deal with if you deep strike something. After all, you can "just" LOS magnus so that he doesn't get killed by lascannons turn 1, so whats the big deal him not having deep strike? Given that you get exactly 1 warptime, and you've probably got better targets for it (magnus, some scarab occult, 40 tzaangors, a daemon prince, a maulerfiend/defiler/dreadnought/whatever) you're unlikely to be warptiming a little skyfire squad with bows just to try and make use of their S4 AP- attacks in melee. Most deployment zones being 24", you're not charging without warptime, and just in shooting they kill roughly 1 guardsman or half a marine each assuming they have the 2+ to hit buff. You're not making their 17 points back in one turn unless you're up against Deathwatch on foot.
2) Daemon prince or if you bring one, a mauler/helbrute are the best targets in my book. Magnus mostly wounds stuff on 2s anyway, but he can take the extra attack. Daemon prince is the obvious target since he can just take the spell himself and it takes Talons up to wounding T7 on 3s.
Can you? Can you justLOS Magnus?
No, you can't, that's my point. The bigger something is, the more difficult it is to "just" hide it out of LOS, and skyfires are about twice the height of a regular rubric marine. and who's the biggest meta gunline opponent? Guard. What does guard have? Mortars, usually. 17ppm models with T4, no armor save only an invuln who will most likely be the only infantry scale models you've got set up on the board turn 1 are going to be the first things targeting them.
I'm not saying they're bad by any means, but if you think enlightened are going to be any kind of meta defining unit or auto-include I'm going to have to disagree. If you're already taking a significant amount of daemon allies then they're definitely much more viable because you can dilute the available targets and have them not be under so much pressure early.
I think i'd be much more solid on them if the bows were like 5 points and I could take the autopistol/chainsword setup for free or something like that. 12-13 ppm tzaangors on discs would be great for tangling with other small MSU objective holder type squads.
Weaver of Fates WC 6- A TZEENTCH unit within 18" gets +1 to their invulnerable save or a 5+ invuln if they do not have one. - Just great.
Boon of Mutation WC 7. Select friendly TS Character (not a daemon character) within 3". Roll 2D6 and consult the chart on the Boon of Tzeentch to see what effect this power has. Similiar to the old chaos boon table.
Yes, 6" Bubble all tzaangor unit.
Shaman has a once per game use elixir to reroll 1st failed psychic test for the model.
Ask the rest who have seen me post on my reliability, who cares about listening hard on a stream?
Mutalith are about 150.
Shaman is 80-90, i forgot.
Vast majority of units did not get any point changes. Some weapons went down abit, some characters went up, all within 5 pt difference.
You should not have any net gain or lose of points using any of the current units.
Skyfires are 2W. 2 S5 -1 1 dmg guns.
BS/WS3 5++
Shaman gives them +1 to hit.
51 points with greatbow FOR 3.
They have 3 options:
Chainsword & Bolt Pistol (?)
Great Bow
and a spear, i forgot exact stats but it does 2 dmg on charge.
Disc do 1 attack , S4 0 1
Sergeant does 3 A, each Tzaangor 2A.
So a unit of 3 does 10A.
Magnus went up by 30 points.
With Shaman aura, 2+ to hit (reroll 1s near a DP), auto wound on a 5+ (with shaman). 24" range, 36" inch effective (12" fly).
We know we have 21 strats in the book
Webway Infiltration- 1/3 CP pick 1/2 units they can deepstrike.
Warp Flame Gargoyles- 1 CP pick a TS vehicle (not helbrute or heldrake) and EVERY unit within 3" gets a die rolled for it 4+ does 1d3 mortal wounds
Cycle of Slaughter- 2CP use at the end of a fight phase 1 Tzaangor unit gets to fight again .
Fated mutation- 1CP Pick your girbblies table ability and reroll the attacks number.
Flesh Change- 1CP Change a character into a spawn, and place the spawn 6" away,
Calabastic Focus- Within 6" of 2 other psykers get a +2 to ONE psychic test.
15 strats left including CSM generic and Tzeentch we are missing .
Relics
Athenian Scrolls- Rolling doubles on Psychic tests prevent DTW rolls
Dark Matter Crystal- consume the crystal to send either the user or the
Tiberius501 wrote: The great bows seem sort of bad. I'm not that much of a good mathammerer, but -1 1dmg seems sort of underwhelming for an elite unit so small
EDIT: I didn't see they were 51pts for a unit of 3, I thought that was per model. That makes them way better
Lots of people math-hammering them right now, considering their range, assault, and "auto hit" functionality bypassing toughness, ap -1 is fine, and their mobility there is definitely some great utility there. May not be an auto-win unit but they seem to have some good uses and decent ROF with easily buffable shots before casting is taken into account.
Yeah auto wounding on a 4+ with Prescience and a Shaman is pretty unreal. Especially because they are hitting on a 2+ with a reroll (if they are near someone that gives it, like Ahriman). That's ~17 hits, half or more automatically wounding with -1AP for a full unit (IIRC they are Assault 2).
But as mentioned, they are the epitome of glass cannons... a brisk Nurgling fart will make them have 9 heart attacks simultaneously and disappear into another dimension.
anticitizen013 wrote: Yeah auto wounding on a 4+ with Prescience and a Shaman is pretty unreal. Especially because they are hitting on a 2+ with a reroll (if they are near someone that gives it, like Ahriman). That's ~17 hits, half or more automatically wounding with -1AP for a full unit (IIRC they are Assault 2).
But as mentioned, they are the epitome of glass cannons... a brisk Nurgling fart will make them have 9 heart attacks simultaneously and disappear into another dimension.
A full unit is 12 so 24 hits more then likely (2+ rerolling 1s) 12 auto wounds, and T6-9 (most tanks) an additional 1/3, so 16 wounds on most tanks, assuming you don't buff their to wound in some way.
I plan on taking a unit of 6. (As its what I own and can fit into my case! lol)
but frankly I think in 1500 or even 2k a unit of 6 is fine. super mobile, flying around the backfield nailing whatever is more opportune and pin-cushioning prime targets when the opportunity presents itself.
Added bonus; they are cheap for 102 for the 12 wounds, 5++, T4, not bad at all. for the ppm Its pretty good IMO. Even a small number can put in some decent work, and being (relatively speaking) cheap they can pull beyond their weight class.
A full unit is 12 so 24 hits more then likely (2+ rerolling 1s) 12 auto wounds, and T6-9 (most tanks) an additional 1/3, so 16 wounds on most tanks, assuming you don't buff their to wound in some way.
Oh my bad, I thought I read the max unit was 9. Either way, I think they are worth it for the price. Especially against really tough things, bonus if they don't have strong armour saves.
Hey guys, quick question, are Tzaangors better with the chainswords/pistols or Tzaangor blades? I'd expect the blades but I'm usually wrong with these kinds of things. I guess pistols means they can still do something even when they aren't in melee but I thought the blades would be good as it seems like they're primarily a melee unit so -1AP seems good
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey guys, quick question, are Tzaangors better with the chainswords/pistols or Tzaangor blades? I'd expect the blades but I'm usually wrong with these kinds of things. I guess pistols means they can still do something even when they aren't in melee but I thought the blades would be good as it seems like they're primarily a melee unit so -1AP seems good
I prefer the blades, you lose out on a Strength 4 pistol shot but your melee attacks are -1 AP which makes a massive difference for pretty much anything you fight.
A full unit is 12 so 24 hits more then likely (2+ rerolling 1s) 12 auto wounds, and T6-9 (most tanks) an additional 1/3, so 16 wounds on most tanks, assuming you don't buff their to wound in some way.
Oh my bad, I thought I read the max unit was 9. Either way, I think they are worth it for the price. Especially against really tough things, bonus if they don't have strong armour saves.
No worries it happens. Totally agree if I had the money I might even buy some of them just because of how good they are going to be. Thier only downfall is they will probably need to be Deepstruck but the fact you can kill a LR in 1 turn with them means they will more then likely be worth every point.
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Tiberius501 wrote: Hey guys, quick question, are Tzaangors better with the chainswords/pistols or Tzaangor blades? I'd expect the blades but I'm usually wrong with these kinds of things. I guess pistols means they can still do something even when they aren't in melee but I thought the blades would be good as it seems like they're primarily a melee unit so -1AP seems good
It really depends on what you want to do with them.
Getting rid of cheap chaff units with little to no armor save? Bolt pistol/ Chainswords are the way to go.
Want to use them as an assassin unit , or are dealing with models with decent armor? Tzaangor blades.
Just remember
Bolt Pistol/ Chain swords get 31 S4 AP- attacks per turn.
I hope the18(!) spells the army now has access to makes them good, especially as they can cast them an extra 6". Seems pretty sweet to me. Shame the rubrics didn't get any cheaper points wise but maybe they're worth 20ppm with all the extra stuff the codex brings?
Why are ther 10 warpflamers on the sprue if they can only have 4 in a unit? I'm assuming any of them were able to take the flamers before but that was nerfed with 8th? Anyone know if that's being changed in the codex? I mean, I know it would be an insanely expensive unit, but... imagine 10d6 autohits coming out of a rhino
EDIT: Wait... I am wrong. Not sure where I got that number from. Index says any can swap for a warpflamer. I am clearly a very smart person
I heard a rumor that Magnus is the only character in the codex who grants any kind of bonus to spellcasting, and that the invulnerable save auras multiple characters had have been re-written with to hit roll auras. Can you deny that?
Sneggy wrote: I heard skyfires had damage d3 or 3 on their auto hitting bows. Can you deny this haechi?
The bows do 1 damage. Personally I find this unit very lackluster compared to what we all hoped for.
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the_scotsman wrote: I heard a rumor that Magnus is the only character in the codex who grants any kind of bonus to spellcasting, and that the invulnerable save auras multiple characters had have been re-written with to hit roll auras. Can you deny that?
He is the only one who grants it, but not the only one who has some. The second part is true.
Tzaangors don't go up to units of 40, they don't have bonuses for being more than 20, and they don't have death to the false emperor.
I don't know why someone leaked those false informations.
Yeah in hindsight it's a bit strange that it was being reported by people that were watching the stream, but I think we all kinda figured at least parts of what you mention were false once the Shaman rules leaked with its +1 to-hit aura. All good in the end, we get that +1 to-hit on Tzaangors in some way at least!
Thank you for the information A little bee told me they think Inferno Boltguns and Inferno Combi-Bolters dropped in points, is that false? Cheers!
Hmmm....so Exalteds (and Ahriman) are now essentially Sorcerer Lords, as they should be. Nice! Means Daemon Princes aren't quite as auto-take as before.
Tzaangors don't go up to units of 40, they don't have bonuses for being more than 20, and they don't have death to the false emperor.
I don't know why someone leaked those false informations.
Yeah in hindsight it's a bit strange that it was being reported by people that were watching the stream, but I think we all kinda figured at least parts of what you mention were false once the Shaman rules leaked with its +1 to-hit aura. All good in the end, we get that +1 to-hit on Tzaangors in some way at least!
Thank you for the information A little bee told me they think Inferno Boltguns and Inferno Combi-Bolters dropped in points, is that false? Cheers!
Hmmm....so Exalteds (and Ahriman) are now essentially Sorcerer Lords, as they should be. Nice! Means Daemon Princes aren't quite as auto-take as before.
No drop in points, DP are even more auto take as ours are stronger than any other.
Cheers Auto-take only in the sense that you don't need a DP for re-roll 1s to-hit auras, competitively DPs are obviously still going to be a lot better! I'm thinking of getting that Ogroid Thaumaturge from AoS and converting him a bit to have wings for use as a DP. It's nice to see that our Exalted should be more useful now at least.
Can you deny that Daemon Princes know an extra power, and that they cast an extra power compared to other Daemon Princes?
Caederes wrote: Cheers Auto-take only in the sense that you don't need a DP for re-roll 1s to-hit auras, competitively DPs are obviously still going to be a lot better! I'm thinking of getting that Ogroid Thaumaturge from AoS and converting him a bit to have wings for use as a DP. It's nice to see that our Exalted should be more useful now at least.
Can you deny that Daemon Princes know an extra power, and that they cast an extra power compared to other Daemon Princes?
Thank you again!
Can't deny it but I don't remember what makes it so.
Come to think of it, that is actually interesting as to why that is the case. Daemon of Tzeentch gives +1 to invulnerable saves, and the Legion Trait is +6" to spell range. Hmm. This codex just got a lot more interesting!
All I need is either a cast re-roll or peril protection relic, and I'm a happy man. I'll stick that on a basic sorc or price and not bother with magnus, since I have ahriman for my + to cast high warpcharge power character.
Confirmed no points changes on Rubrics and Scarab Occult other than the Sorcerers becoming regular members of the squad and thus not paying a tax (the change was already made for Rubrics in the Chaos Space Marine codex) is a bit of a bummer as I'd say Rubrics could use a 1-2 point drop and Scarabs either need a bit of a rework (i.e. 4+ invulnerable save stock increasing to 3++ with either Weaver of Fates or All is Dust) or a slightly bigger points drop. However, I find Rubrics are already very close to the sweet spot for points anyway and that Deep Strike stratagem + teleport Relic massively change the complexion of the unit as it is. Ultimately the big change both units needed was the addition of actual spell selection and that is what we've gotten, meaning our formerly terrible tax squad leaders are now useful again.
Our auras becoming more in-line with Chaos Space Marines makes sense, we've lost a little bit of durability (a lot in the case of Magnus or anything that could get to a 3++ reliably, i.e. Ahriman) though it bears mentioning that our Daemon units get 6++ from the Changeling, and Glamour of Tzeentch's -1 to-hit coupled with Temporal Manipulation's D3-wounds heal do offset it a bit as well. Our offensive punch increased by a lot thanks both to our squad leaders getting powers, our army as a whole getting more powers to play with (including auxiliary Tzeentch Daemons) and those sweet re-roll 1s to-hit auras. Previously Magnus would rarely stick with a Thousand Sons gunline meaning our only real offensive buffs were Prescience and a borrowed Veterans of the Long War from a Chaos Space Marine detachment. Now, we don't even need Magnus for re-roll 1s to-hit and we have Veterans of the Long War in-codex, so no need to break theme with a Chaos Space Marines detachment if you don't want them (however, Alpha Legion Cultists in general still look to be better than ours, and whether we have Tide of Traitors or not could make a big difference)
Our daemon engines (bar the Heldrake) and tanks can also get some good mileage out of the Warpflame Gargoyles stratagem; with the boosted range of Warptime, torpedoing Maulerfiends into multiple units at a time and popping that stratagem looks like a fun tactic. Warptime in general is still an absolute must-have for us, but comboed up with our new methods to teleport and general increase in offensive punch (i.e. Tzaangors next to a Shaman) is really nice and gives us nastier options. The new units look pretty good overall, the Enlightened with bows don't hit quite as hard as we initially thought but with layered buffs they can really start to put the hurt down on almost anything and they're really points efficient at it. Shamans buffing our already nice Tzaangors as well as being decently priced psykers on disks means I'm probably going to habitually field one, while the Mutalith from what we know is looking like a real beast.
Overall, while I would've been happy with some points drops here or there, we're still going to be in a way better spot than we were. Rubrics get elevated so darned much from Deep Strike capabilities, they are legitimately a really scary alpha strike unit given all the buffs we can put on them, and ditto Tzaangors for tying stuff up in combat. Our psychic phase with or without Magnus is improved by virtue of having more actual psykers and more powers to choose from, and generally speaking the re-roll 1s to-hit auras on Ahriman and Exalted are a godsend. Finally, we have a damned good Legion trait even if it is only a one-part rule that specifically affects psykers alone. Those extra ranges make our foot-sloggers less of a tax, our disk-riders and teleporters more frightening and generally give us a lot of flexibility. Staying out of deny range and still being able to cast offensive powers (enemy psykers rarely sit on the front-line) makes us more likely to actually accomplish stuff in the psychic phase, and the increased range of Warptime alone is incredible. Our character sniping capabilities in conjunction with one or two Tzeentch Daemon wizards (or just a Thousand Sons Daemon Prince) are really strong provided we have a few different ways to improve casting rolls.
so, army setup-wise, here's what I've been toying with.
HQs: I want Ahriman on a disc and a winged daemon prince, changeling and a chariot.
Troops: 2x rubric squads in one rhino, 1x 30-blob of tzaangors, and 1 big unit of 25 pink horrors 2 small units of brimstones+blues .
That starts me at 1567 points, 9CPs. From there, I can add some anti-tank in the form of an exalted flamer, a forgefiend, a maulerfiend or a predator, a couple more rubric squads for 2 more powers, or some scarab occult. Seems like a good little place to start at 2k points. At 2.5k I get more toys to play with.
The Mutalith auras are crazy, especially as we know how they function - you can either pick one or randomly generate two each turn. They definitely don't help Rubrics but Scarab Occult sure as heck appreciate the Strength buff and re-roll charges/possible fight first, obviously though Tzaangors get the most mileage out of the melee buffs as far as Thousand Sons units are concerned. Adding extra AP or Strength to a Lasher Tendril Maulerfiend seems like a good bet, but giving 30 Tzaangors either AP-2 attacks or Strength 5? Yes and thank you.
Noteworthy uses for non Thousand Sons units are Pink Horrors in particular as well as Flamers and Screamers. Pink Horrors next to a Herald and a Mutalith get that sweet Strength 5 meaning they all of a sudden wound T4 on 2+ once you cast Flickering Flames on them, though if you are just trying to clear out bubble wrap then Strength 4 + Flickering Flames is enough.
Otherwise, more mortal wounds are always appreciated; the sixth power is basically Infernal Gaze that can't pick its target, and the first power emulates Mortarion. If you can get one or two of these into your opponents backfield, the mortal wounds from Warp Flare will start stacking up very quickly; it all depends on how fast these things are, and what phase the powers are triggered in. Remember also that the ranges on the powers double once the Mutalith is badly wounded per hikaru, meaning you all of a sudden start dealing an automatic mortal wound to every enemy unit within 18". Goodness. Noteworthy also is the stacking Leadership debuffs up to -3, all of a sudden the Treason of Tzeentch power is looking a bit more enticing....though functionally Night Lords would do the same trick better I'd imagine.
As far as the Enlightened go, knowing that the auto-wound extends to all their attacks (maybe not the Disk attacks though?) is very enticing, even with the bows their melee stats aren't bad due to their sheer volume of attacks, so if you're buffing them with Prescience and a Shaman anyway you get even more value out of it should they get up close. Not bad. The spears seem decent, adding the extra AP from a Mutalith looks like the best bet, with all the buffs they'll chew through a lot of things on the charge. I'm assuming they're cheaper than the bows.
Side note, the article seemingly confirms Tzaangor Shamans do not get access to the Daemon lore.
Bluthusten wrote: so we need 2 Mutaliths, a lot of Tzaangors / Enlightened. 1 Prince (demons), 1 herold on disc, 1 Shaman and then fill the rest with tzeentch demons.
i think thats pretty cool. do we even need the marines / terminators?
Need? No. Not that their bad, the Marines especially look like they're quite good. Thematically, I love the idea of doing a Mutalith/Tzaangor/Tzeentch demon list. That sounds awesome.
Fenris-77 wrote: All of it if you use the humans for Cultists. (they'll need some weapon add-ons, but that's not a deal breaker).
mhhhh but arent tzaangors a way better then cultists? i dont like them...
or we build in a alpha legion detachement for tide of traitors...haha
The question was "can I use them?" not "if I can use them, are they any good?". Yeah, Tzaangors are the superior unit in a TSons list. Tide of Traitors isn't a bad idea though...
Fenris-77 wrote: All of it if you use the humans for Cultists. (they'll need some weapon add-ons, but that's not a deal breaker).
mhhhh but arent tzaangors a way better then cultists? i dont like them...
or we build in a alpha legion detachement for tide of traitors...haha
Cultists make for a good screen when it comes to Mortal Wounds, the're only 4 points and can keep your tzaangors alive to deal the damage they need to deal.
Whats the cheapesf way to get a few Cultists in my Thousand Sons army, which can use the tide of traitors, but still fit into my fast moving „beast/Tzaangor/Demons“-Thousand son Army?
Maybe a sorcerer with Jumppack and Mark of tzeentch
+ 2x10 or 10 + 20 cultists?
Bluthusten wrote: Whats the cheapesf way to get a few Cultists in my Thousand Sons army, which can use the tide of traitors, but still fit into my fast moving „beast/Tzaangor/Demons“-Thousand son Army?
Maybe a sorcerer with Jumppack and Mark of tzeentch
+ 2x10 or 10 + 20 cultists?
I hope for some advice
HQs Dark Apostle
Exalted Champ
Troops
10 Cultists x3
260 points and 3 CP to spend on unseen outflanking cultists
Make them Alpha Legion for maximum irritation.
Cheapist points wise is to take them in a TS detachment along with what ever else your bringing.
Mesokhornee wrote: So our codex is basically a big push to drive AoS model sales...csm detachment rubrics are better than ours...what an absolute joke.
Hey, if they can't sell AoS then they can make the models for 40k instead and it's cheap as hell to do so.
Our demon prince got really good, 4++ and 2 powers to cast, exalted are still too expensive for what they do.
Hmmm for 1 cp we can give a vehicle inferno bolts...... almost tempting to field a twin bolter dread now, 114 pts with missile launcher isn’t a bad anti infantry platform.
All in all lackluster strats with the star being the deep strike strat. You won’t see a thousand son army without the deep strike relic or the 5+ reclaim command point one.
Luckily all this is made up for with the psychic powers. Casting the free reroll power first will be critical to staving off the miscasts, as will cabalistic focus.
demontalons wrote: Our demon prince got really good, 4++ and 2 powers to cast, exalted are still too expensive for what they do.
Hmmm for 1 cp we can give a vehicle inferno bolts...... almost tempting to field a twin bolter dread now, 114 pts with missile launcher isn’t a bad anti infantry platform.
All in all lackluster strats with the star being the deep strike strat. You won’t see a thousand son army without the deep strike relic or the 5+ reclaim command point one.
Luckily all this is made up for with the psychic powers. Casting the free reroll power first will be critical to staving off the miscasts, as will cabalistic focus.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: Imho terminators are overpriced, deep strriking rubriks should be cool
Points to shots, the Terminators are cheaper than the Rubric, and do not cost CP to deepstrike. I like them better and think they are close to be a must have in the list.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: Imho terminators are overpriced, deep strriking rubriks should be cool
Points to shots, the Terminators are cheaper than the Rubric, and do not cost CP to deepstrike. I like them better and think they are close to be a must have in the list.
Maybe i played them wrong but usually they deep strike, shoot at something, maybe charge and die next turn because they're too close to enemy army.
Now stop being ridiculous and understand that your complaint is as baseless as ever and that it is still entirely possible a Shaman can provide a +1 to-hit buff to Tzaangor units. Bloodletters get that buff on their own!
