Ahriman21 wrote: I think lots of enlightened are the correct answer; Many bows, and many spears! ;-)
to be fair they are a great, if fragile unit.
They are 15 pts. 17 with bow. That's for 2W, T4, 5++ and fly. They are crazy crazy good and definitely not fragile for their cost. I think people don't get how many of these guys we can field. A unit of 6 is 100 pts! This is crazy! Even units of 9 with bows nets at 153 pts. We can add 3 units of 9 for 27 flying models with 2W each and invul save for 460 pts! Which is bad for my wallet I suppose :(
I saw some bow enlightened get played last time I got a game in, and wasn't crazy impressed. They were paired with a mostly tzaangor-based list, and ran a unit of 9 with spears and a following shaman, with a big tzaangor blob deep striking and double attacking in.
The thousand son player got second turn, and all the anti-infantry weaponry his opponent had just chopped the enlightened up. Shaman survived thanks to character protection (he was behind some anti deep strike cultists) but died trying to get over to the tzaangors to buff them after they jumped in.
I think overall they're good, but they're probably not the crazy powerhouse the internet is making them out to be, precisely because when you're on the internet tends towards liking things you can set up like:
Unit X is amazing!
They only cost 150 points for a maxed out unit!
Then you take character Y (who costs 120 points but whatever)
And character Z (who costs 180 points but whatever)
and psychic power A
and stratagem B which costs 2CP
and psychic power C to keep them from dying (which is WC8 and needs a psyker from a separate faction detachment but whatever)
oh and aura D from character V from ANOTHER separate faction detachment
And they're killing 6 land raiders a turn, rerolling 2s to hit and rerolling 2s to wound, 12" move with fly and 2++ rerollable invuln save! They're COMPLETELY BROKEN!
....and then because the listed combo requries 700 points of auras, 2cps and 3 psychic powers to cast successfully, you never really see it winning any major tournaments.
Put another way, I think Enlightened might be the Thousand Sons version of Bullgryns.
Ahriman21 wrote: I think lots of enlightened are the correct answer; Many bows, and many spears! ;-)
to be fair they are a great, if fragile unit.
They are 15 pts. 17 with bow. That's for 2W, T4, 5++ and fly. They are crazy crazy good and definitely not fragile for their cost. I think people don't get how many of these guys we can field. A unit of 6 is 100 pts! This is crazy! Even units of 9 with bows nets at 153 pts. We can add 3 units of 9 for 27 flying models with 2W each and invul save for 460 pts! Which is bad for my wallet I suppose :(
Plus one or two shamans to keep them buffed. And then people are hedging their bets that they will take care of all the enemy tanks and take no other anti-tank.
T4 W2 5++ seems durable, but when they're the only big threat on the table weight of fire will bring them down fast. Especially since these units will not be hiding with such a large footprint.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
the_scotsman wrote: I saw some bow enlightened get played last time I got a game in, and wasn't crazy impressed. They were paired with a mostly tzaangor-based list, and ran a unit of 9 with spears and a following shaman, with a big tzaangor blob deep striking and double attacking in.
The thousand son player got second turn, and all the anti-infantry weaponry his opponent had just chopped the enlightened up. Shaman survived thanks to character protection (he was behind some anti deep strike cultists) but died trying to get over to the tzaangors to buff them after they jumped in.
I think overall they're good, but they're probably not the crazy powerhouse the internet is making them out to be, precisely because when you're on the internet tends towards liking things you can set up like:
Unit X is amazing!
They only cost 150 points for a maxed out unit!
Then you take character Y (who costs 120 points but whatever)
And character Z (who costs 180 points but whatever)
and psychic power A
and stratagem B which costs 2CP
and psychic power C to keep them from dying (which is WC8 and needs a psyker from a separate faction detachment but whatever)
oh and aura D from character V from ANOTHER separate faction detachment
And they're killing 6 land raiders a turn, rerolling 2s to hit and rerolling 2s to wound, 12" move with fly and 2++ rerollable invuln save! They're COMPLETELY BROKEN!
....and then because the listed combo requries 700 points of auras, 2cps and 3 psychic powers to cast successfully, you never really see it winning any major tournaments.
Put another way, I think Enlightened might be the Thousand Sons version of Bullgryns.
And they're killing 6 land raiders a turn, rerolling 2s to hit and rerolling 2s to wound, 12" move with fly and 2++ rerollable invuln save! They're COMPLETELY BROKEN!
....and then because the listed combo requries 700 points of auras, 2cps and 3 psychic powers to cast successfully, you never really see it winning any major tournaments.
Put another way, I think Enlightened might be the Thousand Sons version of Bullgryns.
Or Gretchin, which has been claimed to be the best of all index units when buffed by a banner-nob, dual runtherdz, Ghaz, weirdboy, a KFF-mek and a Painboy. And they are ONLY 90 POINTS FOR A FULL SQUAD
Automatically Appended Next Post: Questions:
1) Are horrors worth it in a TS detachment?
2) How to run cultists? I plan on running 10 man squads with CCWs to embark in the rhinos where my rubrics will initially deploy. Is this a waste?
3) What HQ choices are worth it apart from DP and Ahriman?
4) How do people here plan on deepstriking Tzaangors?
Horrors can't be taken in a TS detachment as they aren't a thousand Sons. Saying that, if you aren't making use of the psychic range, and already have stratagems unlocked, they are a super cheap troop for netting CP. Perhaps alongside heralds or super cheap renegade commanders.
You can make a 140pt battalion to give CP and a line of chaff to shield against t1 charges.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Horrors can't be taken in a TS detachment as they aren't a thousand Sons. Saying that, if you aren't making use of the psychic range, and already have stratagems unlocked, they are a super cheap troop for netting CP. Perhaps alongside heralds or super cheap renegade commanders.
You can make a 140pt battalion to give CP and a line of chaff to shield against t1 charges.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Horrors can't be taken in a TS detachment as they aren't a thousand Sons. Saying that, if you aren't making use of the psychic range, and already have stratagems unlocked, they are a super cheap troop for netting CP. Perhaps alongside heralds or super cheap renegade commanders.
You can make a 140pt battalion to give CP and a line of chaff to shield against t1 charges.
I missed something? They are really in the book.
They are in the book to summon. They don't have the thousand sons keyword.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Horrors can't be taken in a TS detachment as they aren't a thousand Sons. Saying that, if you aren't making use of the psychic range, and already have stratagems unlocked, they are a super cheap troop for netting CP. Perhaps alongside heralds or super cheap renegade commanders.
You can make a 140pt battalion to give CP and a line of chaff to shield against t1 charges.
I missed something? They are really in the book.
They are in the book to summon. They don't have the thousand sons keyword.
I will have to go back to double check when I'm at home, but if this is the case then it really kills the last thoughts I had about this not be a rushed codex. :(
2) How to run cultists? I plan on running 10 man squads with CCWs to embark in the rhinos where my rubrics will initially deploy. Is this a waste?
Cultists don't do much in groups of 10. Especially in a rhino. They're there to take up space and buffer your important units from deepstrikers.
3) What HQ choices are worth it apart from DP and Ahriman?
Sorcerer termie is great since he deepstrikes and has the familiar. I'm ok with the exalteds, too, even if they're not optimal.
4) How do people here plan on deepstriking Tzaangors?
Stratagem only if I do. DMC I save for more important squads.
1) You mean a tzeench daemons patrol detachment with horrors and heralds? Is that worth it?
2) Yes, I guess so. It was also mostly to utilize the rhinos once my rubrics has disembarked.
3) The sorcerer terminal is nice, I guess. I just don't like the CSM model, I may need to do a recast of the scarab boss nob...
4) Yes, but how do you ensure that the Tzaangor blob gets into combat? Warptime? Bray horn? It just seems like a bit of a gamble with only a single mob and no Ere We Go.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Horrors can't be taken in a TS detachment as they aren't a thousand Sons. Saying that, if you aren't making use of the psychic range, and already have stratagems unlocked, they are a super cheap troop for netting CP. Perhaps alongside heralds or super cheap renegade commanders.
You can make a 140pt battalion to give CP and a line of chaff to shield against t1 charges.
I missed something? They are really in the book.
They are in the book to summon. They don't have the thousand sons keyword.
I will have to go back to double check when I'm at home, but if this is the case then it really kills the last thoughts I had about this not be a rushed codex. :(
Identical to the daemon entries in the CSM and DG book.
WHat is it with people expecting this codex to be somehow different from all other csm codexes somehow and declaring it a hack job when it isn't??
As much as I'd like for Tzeentch-demons to be an actual part of the codex/army without having to revert to summoning/separate detatchments, at least it's consistent with CSM and DG.
So are people really leaning towards enlightened as the anti tank option? I get they have decent damage output, but it's still a melee unit even if it has fly, and fairly fragile one at that. You will need to do a fair amount of work to get them into combat with vehicles which will generally be sitting towards the back of an army, safely tucked away. I tried running DP as my anti tank option in a few DG and CSM lists and generally found it to be somewhat hard going, particularly if it ever became essential I take said tank down as soon as possible, and this strikes me as fairly similar.
Then again, I don't see many good options for psychic powers to do it, and our own vehicle options leave something to be desired.
As much as I'd like for Tzeentch-demons to be an actual part of the codex/army without having to revert to summoning/separate detatchments, at least it's consistent with CSM and DG.
At least Tzeentch detachments are A) super easy and B) provide very strong options to a thousand sons army. Gaze of fate is great. Flickering fire is great on daemon engines. Boon can be pretty good with certain units. Tzeentch daemons offer several solid mid-cost HQs and the cheapest troop units in the game, tied with Gretchins.
SilverAlien wrote: So are people really leaning towards enlightened as the anti tank option? I get they have decent damage output, but it's still a melee unit even if it has fly, and fairly fragile one at that. You will need to do a fair amount of work to get them into combat with vehicles which will generally be sitting towards the back of an army, safely tucked away. I tried running DP as my anti tank option in a few DG and CSM lists and generally found it to be somewhat hard going, particularly if it ever became essential I take said tank down as soon as possible, and this strikes me as fairly similar.
Then again, I don't see many good options for psychic powers to do it, and our own vehicle options leave something to be desired.
Nope, I am in the defiler camp. It does require a second detachment with a changecaster and an exalted sorcerer to run optimally but if you have to stick with a single helper unit a deamon prince can do it without needing a deamon detachment.
I must point out some things here. Some have suggested that it's a waste to put all eggs in one basket. That's true, you should not just run a single defiler. I am currently running 2 and a forgefiend as my heavy Support. If a defiler dies the other is there to help. If I need numbers of shots vs lighter vehicles the forgefiend can totally handle this no matter if you go ectoplasam or hellfire autocannons. And the exalted reroll 1's effects them all, and you can spread you spells around if you want. Turn one cast on defiler 1 and use the deamonforge ability on the 2nd one. It makes an effective combo team for holding the board and dealing with other vehicles pretty easily.
Of course it's also crazy expensive. My loadout consists of an exalted sorcerer, a regular sorcerer, a changecaster, 2 defilers, and a forgefiend for 883 points and has a lot of moving parts. But really those parts don't actually move, you can summon the changecaster in first turn so you again don't need a deamon detachment, and every model has a job.
Exalteds roll is to buff and heal
Sorcerer roll is to make it harder to hurt your units (this roll can be dropped if your low on points but I like the ability to do so)
Changecasters roll is to buff with flames and cast gaze of fate to get an extra reroll, allowing you a better chance to get everything off or help make sure your doing damage with your shots.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: why Defilers? Predators do more damage output and cost less.
For durability.
Defilers can be buffed to decent level of damage (Prescience, re-roll 1 and Flickering flames / Daemonforge) while also being really tanky (5++, 14 wounds) AND dangerous in melee if it comes to that. It's a lot harder to alpha strike a Defiler than a Predator, and each wound healed (though his natural regeneration or spells) is more valuable.
I'll probably try a duo of Defilers in my upcoming games.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: why Defilers? Predators do more damage output and cost less.
For durability.
Defilers can be buffed to decent level of damage (Prescience, re-roll 1 and Flickering flames / Daemonforge) while also being really tanky (5++, 14 wounds) AND dangerous in melee if it comes to that. It's a lot harder to alpha strike a Defiler than a Predator, and each wound healed (though his natural regeneration or spells) is more valuable.
I'll probably try a duo of Defilers in my upcoming games.
And yet a defiler looks so mediocre it hurts :( First, predator can also benefit from prescience and reroll 1's. It can't get flickering flames or daemonforge but it can get the predator stratagem (if you pay 600 pts for three of course). And I would argue that with the shooting output a predator has, prescience and reroll 1's get more milleage on it than on the defiler. A predator is also way more customizable towards anti infantry or anti tank than the defiler.
My problem with the defiler is that it doesn't seem to do anything well enough as is. Jack of all trades doesn't cut it in competitive warhammer. Because we pay points for a little bit of everything, while other units pay much less point to do only one thing, but do it much better.
First it's the weapon load. I don't understand it. The battle cannon strives and fails to find an identity, sure you can get 6 attacks but you can also get 1 and then miss on it. Range 72" is really redundant. And after the battle cannon, what is your 200 pt monster left with? A reaper autocannon which honestly is not any better than a TL heavy bolter or a lascannon. That's it. Heavy flamer is both very expensive and not really required on a machine with so much damage output. If you are worrying about close combat, just go and buy a cheap scourge and let the defiler reign death upon everything it touches. For such a beast with this size and statline, you should have more than two long range weapons.
Then it's the whole 4+ to hit part. It's terribly painful. What's the point to have str 16 and 3 damage attacks in close combat, if you are failing to connect half of the time? For 200+ pts, you really should get more.
But ultimately, where the defiler fails for me is that it doesn't really know what it is supposed to be doing in the field. Is it a gunline immobile platform? Then why give it close combat power and a heavy flamer? Is it a cc machine? Then why do I have to pay for a battle cannon? Is it a move up the field/mainstay unit? Then why does it shoot on a 5+ if it moves? (A 5+ to hit for 200+ pts... jesus).
The defiler doesn't really have an identity, we pay premium cost for all the things it can potentially do semi-competently, but in the end it will only ever do one of those things. If I want CC, I will buy 2 hellbrutes with fists or a maulerfiend rather than 1 defiler and get more CC out of it. If I want shooting, I can buy a predator for 50 pts cheaper and get more shooting out of it. Sure, the fist hellbrutes cannot shoot and the las-predator cannot defend itself in CC, but that's now what wins games. The extra shooting or extra hth power for the same points is what wins games. And that's my ultimate problem with the defiler.
It appears you're projecting the defilers old issues with what it does now.
Compare the most common shooting defiler to its closest analogue, the auto/Las predator.
AC/Las unbuffed does .5 more damage to standard vehicles than Las/BC defiler. It costs 25 points more for 3 wounds, 5++, and all the melee capability of the defiler with the scourge.
Now compare his more melee build to a pure melee beast, the maulerfiend. Lasher/fist mauler does solidly less damage in melee versus everything than the defiler. Defiler gets 2 wounds extra, and hey, it gets a TL heavy Bolter and battle cannon as a cherry on top, all for something like 40pts.
Hardly the premium it used to pay. And why do you need to choose just melee or shooting? If theres a valuable target, pop 2 cp and you can move or warptime him and chunk vehicles for huge damage. Just move him forwards and if it gets in, use it for melee.
the_scotsman wrote: It appears you're projecting the defilers old issues with what it does now.
Compare the most common shooting defiler to its closest analogue, the auto/Las predator.
AC/Las unbuffed does .5 more damage to standard vehicles than Las/BC defiler. It costs 25 points more for 3 wounds, 5++, and all the melee capability of the defiler with the scourge.
Now compare his more melee build to a pure melee beast, the maulerfiend. Lasher/fist mauler does solidly less damage in melee versus everything than the defiler. Defiler gets 2 wounds extra, and hey, it gets a TL heavy Bolter and battle cannon as a cherry on top, all for something like 40pts.
Hardly the premium it used to pay. And why do you need to choose just melee or shooting? If theres a valuable target, pop 2 cp and you can move or warptime him and chunk vehicles for huge damage. Just move him forwards and if it gets in, use it for melee.
But if you move him up the field every turn, then you shoot on a 5+ :( If you don't, you will never be in charge range of that valuable target you want to charge. That's what I mean by identity crisis.
And I would like to see the math behind the AC/Las pred comparison. In my head it's very difficult to calculate due to how inconsistent the battle cannon is. And AC/las pred is not a really good option, given that the predator autocannon is only 10 pts cheaper than a TL lascannon and -in my opinion- is significantly worse. With Las/TL las predator you have consistent damage output. You always have 4 shots, you hit on a 3+, you always have high strength, high AP and the only variable is the d6 damage. With defiler...it's a hit or miss really. Maybe you get the magic turn of 6 battle cannon shots and hit with 5 of them, or you will get 1 shot and 1 las shot and fail to hit with both. It can sure give you very powerful turn but also might really do nothing. And that kills it for me.
Now where the defiler is actually great is if you use it as a guard dog for gunline based armies (if TS even have such a thing). In a gunline list, the main problem will be that a fast army can charge you and lock you very quick (sometimes even turn 1!). But with two defilers spread among your gunlines, just used normally for shooting (so no move), you have two great guard dogs creating nice null zones where the enemy really has to think twice before assaulting anything near them.
the_scotsman wrote: It appears you're projecting the defilers old issues with what it does now.
Compare the most common shooting defiler to its closest analogue, the auto/Las predator.
AC/Las unbuffed does .5 more damage to standard vehicles than Las/BC defiler. It costs 25 points more for 3 wounds, 5++, and all the melee capability of the defiler with the scourge.
Now compare his more melee build to a pure melee beast, the maulerfiend. Lasher/fist mauler does solidly less damage in melee versus everything than the defiler. Defiler gets 2 wounds extra, and hey, it gets a TL heavy Bolter and battle cannon as a cherry on top, all for something like 40pts.
Hardly the premium it used to pay. And why do you need to choose just melee or shooting? If theres a valuable target, pop 2 cp and you can move or warptime him and chunk vehicles for huge damage. Just move him forwards and if it gets in, use it for melee.
But if you move him up the field every turn, then you shoot on a 5+ :( If you don't, you will never be in charge range of that valuable target you want to charge. That's what I mean by identity crisis.
And I would like to see the math behind the AC/Las pred comparison. In my head it's very difficult to calculate due to how inconsistent the battle cannon is. And AC/las pred is not a really good option, given that the predator autocannon is only 10 pts cheaper than a TL lascannon and -in my opinion- is significantly worse. With Las/TL las predator you have consistent damage output. You always have 4 shots, you hit on a 3+, you always have high strength, high AP and the only variable is the d6 damage. With defiler...it's a hit or miss really. Maybe you get the magic turn of 6 battle cannon shots and hit with 5 of them, or you will get 1 shot and 1 las shot and fail to hit with both. It can sure give you very powerful turn but also might really do nothing. And that kills it for me.
Now where the defiler is actually great is if you use it as a guard dog for gunline based armies (if TS even have such a thing). In a gunline list, the main problem will be that a fast army can charge you and lock you very quick (sometimes even turn 1!). But with two defilers spread among your gunlines, just used normally for shooting (so no move), you have two great guard dogs creating nice null zones where the enemy really has to think twice before assaulting anything near them.
If you're investing the points to give him a TL las, and there's something you need to shoot lascannons at, it's generally worthwhile to invest the cp to pop blasphemous and daemonforge and hit on rerolling 4s. If there's not, advance and pop smoke.
The predauto in my opinion is pretty much superior to the TLlas turret unless your opponents army list has a lot of T8. vs T73+ standard vehicle hull, the Tlas does .5 more damage on average, but the Predauto starts to blow it away the second you come up against a T6 or less vehicle or a vehicle with invulns. Besides, talking about unreliability - the Tlas has 1d6 damage, the Predauto has 2D3 shots and flat 3 damage. It's more reliable. I like the Predauto/2las build best because it diversifies my damage output to where I'm not at a significant advantage if I'm not facing just T7 3+ no invulns. Tlas does 25% more damage against T7 3+, predauto does 80% more damage against dark eldar vehicles, light vehicles, ork trukks, harlequin starweavers, etc.
Also, FYI, I think you might be thinking the defiler has one lascannon. It's got two las shots.
The other thing for me with Predators is that when I invest in a predator, I don't need to just invest in buff units (which will be the same units on both predators or defilers) I also need to invest in constant bubblewrap because the second its in melee with anything, gretchins, guardsmen, anything, its over. It's done for the game. Defilers meanwhile deal a consistent 2.5 wounds per turn against pretty much absolutely everything in the game, from guardsmen to knights. You can tie them up, but the only advantage youve gained is that you now dictate what they're punching rather than them getting to shoot and potentially punch whatever they want. With preds, youve dropped their damage to zero, essentially for the game unless your opponent can fall back and peel for them.
If you're investing the points to give him a TL las, and there's something you need to shoot lascannons at, it's generally worthwhile to invest the cp to pop blasphemous and daemonforge and hit on rerolling 4s. If there's not, advance and pop smoke.
The predauto in my opinion is pretty much superior to the TLlas turret unless your opponents army list has a lot of T8. vs T73+ standard vehicle hull, the Tlas does .5 more damage on average, but the Predauto starts to blow it away the second you come up against a T6 or less vehicle or a vehicle with invulns. Besides, talking about unreliability - the Tlas has 1d6 damage, the Predauto has 2D3 shots and flat 3 damage. It's more reliable. I like the Predauto/2las build best because it diversifies my damage output to where I'm not at a significant advantage if I'm not facing just T7 3+ no invulns. Tlas does 25% more damage against T7 3+, predauto does 80% more damage against dark eldar vehicles, light vehicles, ork trukks, harlequin starweavers, etc.
Also, FYI, I think you might be thinking the defiler has one lascannon. It's got two las shots.
The other thing for me with Predators is that when I invest in a predator, I don't need to just invest in buff units (which will be the same units on both predators or defilers) I also need to invest in constant bubblewrap because the second its in melee with anything, gretchins, guardsmen, anything, its over. It's done for the game. Defilers meanwhile deal a consistent 2.5 wounds per turn against pretty much absolutely everything in the game, from guardsmen to knights. You can tie them up, but the only advantage youve gained is that you now dictate what they're punching rather than them getting to shoot and potentially punch whatever they want. With preds, youve dropped their damage to zero, essentially for the game unless your opponent can fall back and peel for them.
I was indeed not aware of the double las on the defiler. This changes the landscape a lot. Also, my meta is like 80% imperials, so the triple las pred was an obvious choice for me.
Defiler huh? Now where would I find a thousand son head-shield (how do you call the neck protectors?) big enough to fit a defiler??? TK sphinx????
What's bothering me now is that the Defiler has made the Forgefiend completely redundant.
A shooty Defiler costs 201pts for Battlecannon, TL Lascannon and Havoc launcher.
> range 48"
> 4 S18 AP-3 Dd6 attacks
> Smokelaunchers
> Havoc launcher
> 14 wounds
A shooty Fiend costs 195pts for Ecto head, double Hades autocannons
> range 36"/24"
> no CC > 12 wounds
For 6pts you get 2 wounds, Smokelaunchers, Havoc launcher, increased range and some nice CC attacks. Both units deal the same damage (and that's without accounting for the Havoc Launcher). Why would you ever run a Forgefiend now ?
I think the Forgefiend's Ectoplasma Cannon is overcosted by *at least* 5 points and the beast itself by 20.
And as you say, in addition to all this the Defiler can actually kill stuff in melee, has +2 wounds, longer range and smoke launchers.
Yeah from a competetive standpoint there's no reason to take a Forgefiend. After they shaved of points on the Defiler they should've shaved some on the Forgefiend as well.
I guess the Hades Cannons make the Forgefiend better against certain 2W targets, but thats about it.
I think we're actually at the point where Defilers are more "does it all" than "master of none" - especially for the Thousand Sons, who have all the buffs for big sturdy things that want psychic buffs.
There is an argument to be made for options like the double-butcher contemptor in shooting, and the tendrilfiend in melee (makes better use out of the warptime rush with 10" base MS, a solid 40 points cheaper and it does comparable, if less, damage, but still reliably whacks things if it pops daemonforge in melee)
topaxygouroun i wrote: Can't really believe that I live to see the day where we are seriously discussing defilers as a solid option for Chaos.
........
So happy inside...
Lol I know right?
Defiler and Forgefiend have been my go to combo last few games, tried to lower my "casting requirements" to find that sweet spot where I have exactly what I need without having a bunch of spells wasted because once you hit that point they just don't really become a used spell.
Last game ran
2x Defiler with twin laz, scourge
Forgefiend with dual hades autocannons
Exalted Sorcerer, helm of 3rd eye, prescience, Temporal manipulation
Changecaster as warlord with Deamonspark, Flickering flames, gaze of fate
This seemed to work just as well, the units were a bit softer but I found if I casted -1 to hit on one defiler, +1 invulnerable on the other, my opponent shot the forgefiend. If I didn't cast those powers he would pick a difiler and I would still be healing one of the 3 each turn so it doesn't matter as much in my meta, your mileage may vary. This gave me points to spend elsewhere, bringing the group down to 785 pts.
And deamonspark is very sweet. I don't know how I feel about it, as then it feels like a small deamon army with a large Tsons detachment when I make the changecaster the warlord but how can you not like free auto reroll 1's to wound on shooting?
I may end up either putting weaver of fate / glamor of tzeench on my 2 10 man Rubric squads I always take as fire Support for the group as a possible cast if something needs protection quick, or maybe drop the changeling as warlord and just summon it in so I can have a more pure tsons force. I mean, a sorcerer summoning a deamon to help him keep the machines running, that makes sense.
Spearhead:
Exalted on Disc
Pred with 4 Lascannons, Combi bolter
Defiler with twin las, scourge, combi
Defiler with twin las, scourge, combi
I think it's potentially solid, the vehicles, DP, Ahriman, and bolter Rubrics forming a mobile firebase while the Cultists and spawn rush forward to threaten enemy lines with a swamping. The flamer Rubrics drop out of the webway onto an objective with the sorceror to buff them, and the disc sorc goes where needed. I can also switch Rubric squad roles if I see the need.
Ideally I'd like to swap some spawn with Enlightened, and probably drop a Rubric squad in favor of Tzaangors, then use the freed up points for SoT in the future.
Spearhead:
Exalted on Disc
Pred with 4 Lascannons, Combi bolter
Defiler with twin las, scourge, combi
Defiler with twin las, scourge, combi
I think it's potentially solid, the vehicles, DP, Ahriman, and bolter Rubrics forming a mobile firebase while the Cultists and spawn rush forward to threaten enemy lines with a swamping. The flamer Rubrics drop out of the webway onto an objective with the sorceror to buff them, and the disc sorc goes where needed. I can also switch Rubric squad roles if I see the need.
Ideally I'd like to swap some spawn with Enlightened, and probably drop a Rubric squad in favor of Tzaangors, then use the freed up points for SoT in the future.
Thoughts?
Actually, pretty nice. I like our spawns at the moment, the ability to control their mutation through a command point could be useful in a clutch situation.
It has a lot of potential with close combat, I mean we really are in a weird position here. We don't want to be in cc as tsons but if you charge us we can hit as hard as we get hit, I like that aspect of your list.
I don't know about the full squad of flamers. Rubrics are expensive enough as it is, I can see putting one or 2 in per squad but a full 10 man = about 100 pts. That's better spent on 3 more chaos spawn, or more cultists. Just more bodies in general. I mean, what do you need 10d6 auto hits to kill that 4 wouldn't kill? How much of that is overkill?
Nym wrote: What's bothering me now is that the Defiler has made the Forgefiend completely redundant.
A shooty Defiler costs 201pts for Battlecannon, TL Lascannon and Havoc launcher.
> range 48"
> 4 S18 AP-3 Dd6 attacks
> Smokelaunchers
> Havoc launcher
> 14 wounds
A shooty Fiend costs 195pts for Ecto head, double Hades autocannons
> range 36"/24"
> no CC > 12 wounds
For 6pts you get 2 wounds, Smokelaunchers, Havoc launcher, increased range and some nice CC attacks. Both units deal the same damage (and that's without accounting for the Havoc Launcher). Why would you ever run a Forgefiend now ?
I think the Forgefiend's Ectoplasma Cannon is overcosted by *at least* 5 points and the beast itself by 20.
Though I agree they are very close with the defiler having an edge, I often dont use the ecto-face on my forgefiend leaving it at a nice 177 for its cost in smaller games (anything below 2k I do not take the plasma face, however in 2k I sometimes do). For me personally the forgefiend has put out LOTS of damage in a turn, to the tune of often coming close to 1-turning transport vehicles such as rhinos or chimeras with minimal help.
Looking at 8 shots, re rolling 1's, sometimes shooting at +1 BS, daemonforge if you *REALLY* need a target dead or hurting, Flickering flames from a prince, daemon, or sorcerer when applicable for that str8 and +1 to wound.
Though the "potential" of the defiler outstrips the forgefiend, that potential requires decent rolls for the havoc launcher and the battle cannon, so there is an additional dice roll involved for that model whereas the forgefiend just grinds away with its 8 shots, good stats, decent saves, and with our support hits and damages fairly well at shooting for its cost. When I have used the plasma it does fine, but usually I find the cannons put out ALOT of hate and it makes your opponent focus it.
I actually use both in my lists and i find they are quite complementary. My defiler also puts out lots of shots as I haven't taken to putting a Las-cannon on it yet, usually do the base cannon, a combi-bolter, its heavy bolter, and its havoc launcher (170 flat) and it does fairly well. Far harder to kill then it should be, and I love it!
I've been testing out a few things with the army in both friendly and competitive match-ups, and I've learned some things very quickly.
Side-note before I get started; as much as we didn't get the scale of release that Death Guard received (we have something like 10 unique units to their 18) the rules designers put more effort into the non-unique stuff. Our Daemon Princes not only get both the Legion trait and Daemon of "x" benefit, they also uniquely know and can cast an extra power at no additional cost, making them arguably the best Daemon Princes of any legion (though a Khorne Daemon Prince from the Daemon codex will shank anything in the game). Similarly, our generic Sorcerers gain 5+ invulnerable saves for a handful of points, while our Exalted Sorcerers are literally Chaos Sorcerer Lords; less options, same stats with good stock weaponry and well priced (not next to Daemon Princes, but generally speaking)
1) Always have some kind of big unit to benefit from Veterans of the Long War. The stratagem is too good not to get the most out of, whether it's 20-man Rubric units shooting or 30-strong Tzaangor squads fighting up close.
2) On a similar note, having one or two big units (at least) that are very scary for your opponent receive most or all of your buffs between them presents a huge tactical decision to your opponent on what to focus on and how to ease the pain.
3) Magnus can dominate armies that don't have great shooting phases, especially if you go first. Always take the Changeling if you're using Magnus. Whether you decide to buff Magnus or not really depends on the situation, sometimes he's just not a good target for your opponent on a given turn and your buffs can be directed elsewhere.
4) Regarding Magnus. His psychic and to-hit auras serve him well if you have a healthy amount of psykers but they won't make your psychic phase tick alone. Keeping him back for a few turns as a counter-charge unit can work. Again, it all depends on the match-up; against gunlines, buff him and Warptime him forward before Warptiming in some Tzaangor blobs.
5) Make full use of our mobility manipulation when you need it. Don't Deep Strike in the face of a well defended gun-line with only one or two units, fail to get a few key buffs off and watch said unit die before it can come close to making its points back. Some match-ups will punish reserves play even if you support the alpha strike well, be aware of this and plan around using the Webway stratagem or simply saving your Command Points.
6) To counter my previous point, always have one strong ranged unit and one strong melee unit that can benefit from the Webway stratagem. Sometimes you will want to use it just to protect something from an opponents' alpha strike, or have the flexibility to do something as simple as dropping it down at a particular point behind your own lines; all this also applies to any Deep Striking Chaos Daemons. 20-man Rubrics, 10-man Scarabs, 20/30-strong Pink Horrors, 6/9-strong Flamers (or whichever number only costs 1CP to Deep Strike), 20-30/strong Tzaangors, etc. Again, the match-up is key and learning when to make use of the Webway stratagem is a critical part of competitive Thousand Sons play.
7) If you plan on Warptiming a melee/ranged unit forward after Deep Striking them, a good idea is to put Warptime on a Terminator Sorcerer who Deep Strikes with said unit. Ideally, said Terminator Sorcerer is also your Warlord and has a Chaos Familiar. Getting +2 to cast Warptime is great, getting +4 to cast it is even better if you can sling a few disc-riding characters/Daemon Princes/have a squad of Rubrics or Scarabs nearby. You do this not only to make sure the power goes off, but also because you can deliver Warptime exactly where you need it and not have to worry about the max 12+D6" move your fast characters have, i.e. if there's a gap in the enemy backfield you want to exploit.
8) Always spend 1CP on taking an extra relic for Thousand Sons. Always. The Dark Matter Crystal and Helm of the Third Eye are auto-takes competitively. Preferably have the Dark Matter Crystal as your "free" Relic and spend the 1CP on the Helm, the reason for that is that some armies will spend all their CP before the game which will make the chances of refunding the CP spent on the Helm incredibly slim. On the flip side, the Crystal is literally always worth it even if it is just for a late game objective grab.
9) I prefer to put the Dark Matter Crystal on whichever character I have teleporting in (again, Sorcerer in Terminator Armour) so they can deliver it to where it needs to go. On the flip side, always have the Helm starting on the board. If your opponent goes first and your Helm-bearer is in Reserves, that's potentially a lot of CP you can miss out on.
10) Pay very close attention to your order of operations. The Mutaliths' aura is resolved at the start of the Shooting phase. For the sake of your opponent, pre-plan your psychic powers; keep a note (whether on paper or on an electronic device) of what powers you prefer and on what characters will usually take them. Having 18 to choose from is amazing, but not when you have limited time to play out a match and you can't decide what you need. The reality is that several of our powers are must-takes almost regardless of match-up - Weaver of Fates, Warptime, Prescience, Gaze of Fate, Glamour of Tzeentch and Death Hex in particular - and which other powers you take can often depend on just how many psykers you have.
11) I aim to have a minimum of 10 casts per turn in a 2000 point Thousand Sons army, and as crazy as it sounds that is not character heavy at all, especially if you take Ahriman. If you want to get the most bang for your buck out of your HQ choices - meaning you want a character that can fight and sling spells effectively - Daemon Princes are your obvious best bet. If you just want cheap psykers, bare-bones Sorcerers are great, and Exalteds are worthwhile if you don't want to spring for Princes. The Terminator Sorcerer is pretty much always a great investment because, unlike the others, he has an in-built Deep Strike mechanic and has his own casting bonus.
12) If you can stomach playing "under" points, keeping some points spare and summoning daemons in is not the worst idea in the world for the same reasons summoning is considered a toolbox ability by competitive Age of Sigmar players. Sometimes you'll want Horrors to clear chaff. Other times you'll want Flamers to clear those silly "I'm impossible to hit at range" enemies. Hell, sometimes you'll want a melee-based tank-buster in the form of Screamers. It's not for every list and I generally prefer to just fill out my list, but it's something to consider, especially as our summoning stratagem is really darned good.
13) Whether it "breaks your fluff" or not, Rubrics must be supported by Cultists and/or Tzaangors. Not only do you want them to fill out your Troops choices cheaply, you need troops that can move into the midfield and generally be a nuisance for your opponent. Hordes are good. We have good hordes. Make the most of them. Pretty much no army in the game does pure elite well, even Custodes have their issues; we aren't any different, and you need to respect that fact.
14) I prefer to get all my Rubric-love in a 20-man unit that either Deep Strikes or sits behind my lines depending on the match-up (majority of cases, they Deep Strike) as MSU Rubrics got punished a bit with the Soulreaper change and 20-man Rubrics are one of the best units to give Prescience and Veterans of the Long War to. Being perfectly honest, I'm still afraid to cast powers on my Aspiring Sorcerers. However...
15) Tzeentch's Firestorm or Temporal Manipulation are great picks for an Aspiring Sorcerer to have. I always try to have Gaze of Fate and a CP saved to mitigate his Perils, as generally Perils isn't a big deal for our other psykers by virtue of Temporal Manipulation existing. Watch for snipers though. Ideally, cast the powers that you're afraid of suffering Perils from early in your Psychic phase so you don't get tempted to burn the two possible re-rolls on potentially less critical rolls.
16) If you want versatility in a competitive or semi-competitive army, or just versatility in general, I would invest in either Rubrics or Scarab Occult, not both, as painful as it can be to say that. This is not an indictment of either unit; sadly, they really do fill the same role. Inferno bolt weapons plus Veterans of the Long War and Prescience can gun down most things in the game, but primarily they are best at killing infantry. Scarabs trade durability against Damage 2+ weapons per-point (they die as easily as a Rubric there despite costing double the points) for better melee prowess, but their melee attacks are essentially the same as their guns; anti-infantry, even if Veterans of the Long War can allay that. Taking too much of both is a mistake.
17) Heroic Interventions are your friend. We will usually have more than a few characters, and each of them is respectably capable in combat due to either having a force weapon or being a Daemon Prince. On that note, be mindful that if you are sending your characters forward to buff Deep Strikers or get in range to do offensive powers, make sure to move up fodder around them so they don't get isolated and killed. The characters are the most important part of the army, and once all your buffs and psychic mortal wounds are gone, the army starts losing direction extremely fast. That's fluffy of course, but it does mean protecting your characters is something you must be mindful of at all times. Losing Ahriman turn one because you under-estimate the mobility of particular assault units is a horrible way to start a game.
18) If you run a character that can get +3 or +4 to cast through various abilities/stratagems, consider putting Doombolt on said caster. Doombolt is game-winning in certain match-ups, especially if you can guarantee getting into range of what you want to cast it on. However, it is also highly first-turn dependent in a lot of the match-ups where it is favourable, making it a bit unreliable; a list that Warptimes a Daemon Primarch forward can't be messed up by Doombolt if you don't go first. Similarly, some armies that would be vulnerable to the power can bypass it thanks to Reserves; a Swarmlord + tunnelling Genestealers list being a prime example. It's yet another toolbox power that you want to get to grips with before building a strategy around it.
Spearhead:
Exalted on Disc
Pred with 4 Lascannons, Combi bolter
Defiler with twin las, scourge, combi
Defiler with twin las, scourge, combi
I think it's potentially solid, the vehicles, DP, Ahriman, and bolter Rubrics forming a mobile firebase while the Cultists and spawn rush forward to threaten enemy lines with a swamping. The flamer Rubrics drop out of the webway onto an objective with the sorceror to buff them, and the disc sorc goes where needed. I can also switch Rubric squad roles if I see the need.
Ideally I'd like to swap some spawn with Enlightened, and probably drop a Rubric squad in favor of Tzaangors, then use the freed up points for SoT in the future.
Thoughts?
I feel like those cultists will probably never do anything in any game unless you intend to focus buffs onto them. It's likely better to just have two blocks of 10 so they don't all die to morale in one go.
Caederes wrote: I've been testing out a few things with the army in both friendly and competitive match-ups, and I've learned some things very quickly.
Side-note before I get started; as much as we didn't get the scale of release that Death Guard received (we have something like 10 unique units to their 18) the rules designers put more effort into the non-unique stuff. Our Daemon Princes not only get both the Legion trait and Daemon of "x" benefit, they also uniquely know and can cast an extra power at no additional cost, making them arguably the best Daemon Princes of any legion (though a Khorne Daemon Prince from the Daemon codex will shank anything in the game). Similarly, our generic Sorcerers gain 5+ invulnerable saves for a handful of points, while our Exalted Sorcerers are literally Chaos Sorcerer Lords; less options, same stats with good stock weaponry and well priced (not next to Daemon Princes, but generally speaking)
1) Always have some kind of big unit to benefit from Veterans of the Long War. The stratagem is too good not to get the most out of, whether it's 20-man Rubric units shooting or 30-strong Tzaangor squads fighting up close.
2) On a similar note, having one or two big units (at least) that are very scary for your opponent receive most or all of your buffs between them presents a huge tactical decision to your opponent on what to focus on and how to ease the pain.
3) Magnus can dominate armies that don't have great shooting phases, especially if you go first. Always take the Changeling if you're using Magnus. Whether you decide to buff Magnus or not really depends on the situation, sometimes he's just not a good target for your opponent on a given turn and your buffs can be directed elsewhere.
4) Regarding Magnus. His psychic and to-hit auras serve him well if you have a healthy amount of psykers but they won't make your psychic phase tick alone. Keeping him back for a few turns as a counter-charge unit can work. Again, it all depends on the match-up; against gunlines, buff him and Warptime him forward before Warptiming in some Tzaangor blobs.
5) Make full use of our mobility manipulation when you need it. Don't Deep Strike in the face of a well defended gun-line with only one or two units, fail to get a few key buffs off and watch said unit die before it can come close to making its points back. Some match-ups will punish reserves play even if you support the alpha strike well, be aware of this and plan around using the Webway stratagem or simply saving your Command Points.
6) To counter my previous point, always have one strong ranged unit and one strong melee unit that can benefit from the Webway stratagem. Sometimes you will want to use it just to protect something from an opponents' alpha strike, or have the flexibility to do something as simple as dropping it down at a particular point behind your own lines. 20-man Rubrics, 10-man Scarabs, 20/30-strong Pink Horrors, 6/9-strong Flamers (or whichever number only costs 1CP to Deep Strike), 20-30/strong Tzaangors, etc. Again, the match-up is key and learning when to make use of the Webway stratagem is a critical part of competitive Thousand Sons play.
7) If you plan on Warptiming a melee/ranged unit forward after Deep Striking them, a good idea is to put Warptime on a Terminator Sorcerer who Deep Strikes with said unit. Ideally, said Terminator Sorcerer is also your Warlord and has a Chaos Familiar. Getting +2 to cast Warptime is great, getting +4 to cast it is even better if you can sling a few disc-riding characters/Daemon Princes/have a squad of Rubrics or Scarabs nearby. You do this not only to make sure the power goes off, but also because you can deliver Warptime exactly where you need it and not have to worry about the max 12+D6" move your fast characters have, i.e. if there's a gap in the enemy backfield you want to exploit.
8) Always spend 1CP on taking an extra relic for Thousand Sons. Always. The Dark Matter Crystal and Helm of the Third Eye are auto-takes competitively. Preferably have the Dark Matter Crystal as your "free" Relic and spend the 1CP on the Helm, the reason for that is that some armies will spend all their CP before the game which will make the chances of refunding the CP spent on the Helm incredibly slim. On the flip side, the Crystal is literally always worth it even if it is just for a late game objective grab.
9) I prefer to put the Dark Matter Crystal on whichever character I have teleporting in (again, Sorcerer in Terminator Armour) so they can deliver it to where it needs to go. On the flip side, always have the Helm starting on the board. If your opponent goes first and your Helm-bearer is in Reserves, that's potentially a lot of CP you can miss out on.
10) Pay very close attention to your order of operations. The Mutaliths' aura is resolved at the start of the Shooting phase. For the sake of your opponent, pre-plan your psychic powers; keep a note (whether on paper or on an electronic device) of what powers you prefer and on what characters will usually take them. Having 18 to choose from is amazing, but not when you have limited time to play out a match and you can't decide what you need. The reality is that several of our powers are must-takes almost regardless of match-up - Weaver of Fates, Warptime, Prescience, Gaze of Fate, Glamour of Tzeentch and Death Hex in particular - and which other powers you take can often depend on just how many psykers you have.
11) I aim to have a minimum of 10 casts per turn in a 2000 point Thousand Sons army, and as crazy as it sounds that is not character heavy at all, especially if you take Ahriman. If you want to get the most bang for your buck out of your HQ choices - meaning you want a character that can fight and sling spells effectively - Daemon Princes are your obvious best bet. If you just want cheap psykers, bare-bones Sorcerers are great, and Exalteds are worthwhile if you don't want to spring for Princes. The Terminator Sorcerer is pretty much always a great investment because, unlike the others, he has an in-built Deep Strike mechanic and has his own casting bonus.
12) If you can stomach playing "under" points, keeping some points spare and summoning daemons in is not the worst idea in the world for the same reasons summoning is considered a toolbox ability by competitive Age of Sigmar players. Sometimes you'll want Horrors to clear chaff. Other times you'll want Flamers to clear those silly "I'm impossible to hit at range" enemies. Hell, sometimes you'll want a melee-based tank-buster in the form of Screamers. It's not for every list and I generally prefer to just fill out my list, but it's something to consider, especially as our summoning stratagem is really darned good.
13) Whether it "breaks your fluff" or not, Rubrics must be supported by Cultists and/or Tzaangors. Not only do you want them to fill out your Troops choices cheaply, you need troops that can move into the midfield and generally be a nuisance for your opponent. Hordes are good. We have good hordes. Make the most of them. Pretty much no army in the game does pure elite well, even Custodes have their issues; we aren't any different, and you need to respect that fact.
14) I prefer to get all my Rubric-love in a 20-man unit that either Deep Strikes or sits behind my lines depending on the match-up (majority of cases, they Deep Strike) as MSU Rubrics got punished a bit with the Soulreaper change and 20-man Rubrics are one of the best units to give Prescience and Veterans of the Long War to. Being perfectly honest, I'm still afraid to cast powers on my Aspiring Sorcerers. However...
15) Tzeentch's Firestorm or Temporal Manipulation are great picks for an Aspiring Sorcerer to have. I always try to have Gaze of Fate and a CP saved to mitigate his Perils, as generally Perils isn't a big deal for our other psykers by virtue of Temporal Manipulation existing. Watch for snipers though. Ideally, cast the powers that you're afraid of suffering Perils from early in your Psychic phase so you don't get tempted to burn the two possible re-rolls on potentially less critical rolls.
16) If you want versatility in a competitive or semi-competitive army, or just versatility in general, I would invest in either Rubrics or Scarab Occult, not both, as painful as it can be to say that. This is not an indictment of either unit; sadly, they really do fill the same role. Inferno bolt weapons plus Veterans of the Long War and Prescience can gun down most things in the game, but primarily they are best at killing infantry. Scarabs trade durability against Damage 2+ weapons per-point (they die as easily as a Rubric there despite costing double the points) for better melee prowess, but their melee attacks are essentially the same as their guns; anti-infantry, even if Veterans of the Long War can allay that. Taking too much of both is a mistake.
17) Heroic Interventions are your friend. We will usually have more than a few characters, and each of them is respectably capable in combat due to either having a force weapon or being a Daemon Prince. On that note, be mindful that if you are sending your characters forward to buff Deep Strikers or get in range to do offensive powers, make sure to move up fodder around them so they don't get isolated and killed. The characters are the most important part of the army, and once all your buffs and psychic mortal wounds are gone, the army starts losing direction extremely fast. That's fluffy of course, but it does mean protecting your characters is something you must be mindful of at all times. Losing Ahriman turn one because you under-estimate the mobility of particular assault units is a horrible way to start a game.
18) If you run a character that can get +3 or +4 to cast through various abilities/stratagems, consider putting Doombolt on said caster. Doombolt is game-winning in certain match-ups, especially if you can guarantee getting into range of what you want to cast it on. However, it is also highly first-turn dependent in a lot of the match-ups where it is favourable, making it a bit unreliable; a list that Warptimes a Daemon Primarch forward can't be messed up by Doombolt if you don't go first. Similarly, some armies that would be vulnerable to the power can bypass it thanks to Reserves; a Swarmlord + tunnelling Genestealers list being a prime example. It's yet another toolbox power that you want to get to grips with before building a strategy around it.
Caederes wrote: I've been testing out a few things with the army in both friendly and competitive match-ups, and I've learned some things very quickly.
Those are some great pointers. Here are some counter-questions:
1) Are 20-man rubrics not vulnerable to morale losses?
2) Do you think rhino-deploying is a viable way of limiting the drops of a character-heavy army, and/or protecting rubrics against alpha strikes?
3) Is tzaangors always better than cultists?
4) Are shamans worth it?
5) What unit size for tzangoors? Always give them a bray horn? Is there any reason to run chainswords and pistols, ever?
6) Is there any reason to run horrors without heralds?
1) Are 20-man rubrics not vulnerable to morale losses?
Save that two CP for auto-pass morale. They need only to survive a couple rounds of shooting to deliver the payload.
2) Do you think rhino-deploying is a viable way of limiting the drops of a character-heavy army, and/or protecting rubrics against alpha strikes?
It's not a small investment for those, but warpflame gargoyles amps up their usability after they've done their job. It would suck though to get alpha charged and not be able to get out of the rhino - rare, but possible.
3) Is tzaangors always better than cultists?
Cultists are better filler. Tzaangors can be more useful overall.
4) Are shamans worth it?
Only if you have Tzaangors, really.
5) What unit size for tzangoors? Always give them a bray horn? Is there any reason to run chainswords and pistols, ever?
Size based on your need. 20 to 30 if you want to do damage. Brayhorn if you intend to bring a big unit and get it stuck in. I never run CS/pistol, but there could be edge cases.
6) Is there any reason to run horrors without heralds?
Eh. They need the strength to be more effective. And you'd want the horrors in their own detachment, which requires and HQ anyway.
What's the cheapest daemon battalion we can get? Like 2 heralds and 3 units of brimstone horrors? Just put the horrors on objectives and use the heralds as extra spellcasters to buff your defilers. We could try to maximize the CP we generate. If the whole battalion can go for 250ish points and give us 3 crappy objective holders, 2 daemon casters and 3 CP then I'm all in for it really.
topaxygouroun i wrote: What's the cheapest daemon battalion we can get? Like 2 heralds and 3 units of brimstone horrors? Just put the horrors on objectives and use the heralds as extra spellcasters to buff your defilers. We could try to maximize the CP we generate. If the whole battalion can go for 250ish points and give us 3 crappy objective holders, 2 daemon casters and 3 CP then I'm all in for it really.
Yep. In my estimation though, the most optimal daemon battalion is actually investing just a little bit more into it.
Changeling gives good benefits (especially to magnus and daemon engines) and is only marginally more expensive than a changecaster, and you only need one changecaster really. Plus, you might as well bring something for the changecaster you do have to buff the strength of - I use a big blob of pinks to deep strike, great for pairing with tzaangors as the tzaangors strike in, warptime until they're tickling the noses of the enemy's deep strike screen, then the pinks can clear that screen away partially to allow the tzaangors to try and charge into more valuable targets, like buff characters, or vehicles that dont want to be tied up. A friend of mine swears by Flamers, because 6 only need 1cp to deep strike and a herald buffs them into 6 12" range pistol heavy flamers. Mean as a mother hubbard and great at clearing infantry.
Plus, Exalted Flamers are also an amazing unit you should consider because it does that magical thing the thousand sons cant get enough of which is kill tanks. Character protection, fly, likes daemon prince hit rerolls.
topaxygouroun i wrote: What's the cheapest daemon battalion we can get? Like 2 heralds and 3 units of brimstone horrors? Just put the horrors on objectives and use the heralds as extra spellcasters to buff your defilers. We could try to maximize the CP we generate. If the whole battalion can go for 250ish points and give us 3 crappy objective holders, 2 daemon casters and 3 CP then I'm all in for it really.
Yep. In my estimation though, the most optimal daemon battalion is actually investing just a little bit more into it.
Changeling gives good benefits (especially to magnus and daemon engines) and is only marginally more expensive than a changecaster, and you only need one changecaster really. Plus, you might as well bring something for the changecaster you do have to buff the strength of - I use a big blob of pinks to deep strike, great for pairing with tzaangors as the tzaangors strike in, warptime until they're tickling the noses of the enemy's deep strike screen, then the pinks can clear that screen away partially to allow the tzaangors to try and charge into more valuable targets, like buff characters, or vehicles that dont want to be tied up. A friend of mine swears by Flamers, because 6 only need 1cp to deep strike and a herald buffs them into 6 12" range pistol heavy flamers. Mean as a mother hubbard and great at clearing infantry.
Plus, Exalted Flamers are also an amazing unit you should consider because it does that magical thing the thousand sons cant get enough of which is kill tanks. Character protection, fly, likes daemon prince hit rerolls.
So, next question. If you can fill in your daemons as your chaff/utility units, do we really need the goats?
topaxygouroun i wrote: What's the cheapest daemon battalion we can get? Like 2 heralds and 3 units of brimstone horrors? Just put the horrors on objectives and use the heralds as extra spellcasters to buff your defilers. We could try to maximize the CP we generate. If the whole battalion can go for 250ish points and give us 3 crappy objective holders, 2 daemon casters and 3 CP then I'm all in for it really.
Yep. In my estimation though, the most optimal daemon battalion is actually investing just a little bit more into it.
Changeling gives good benefits (especially to magnus and daemon engines) and is only marginally more expensive than a changecaster, and you only need one changecaster really. Plus, you might as well bring something for the changecaster you do have to buff the strength of - I use a big blob of pinks to deep strike, great for pairing with tzaangors as the tzaangors strike in, warptime until they're tickling the noses of the enemy's deep strike screen, then the pinks can clear that screen away partially to allow the tzaangors to try and charge into more valuable targets, like buff characters, or vehicles that dont want to be tied up. A friend of mine swears by Flamers, because 6 only need 1cp to deep strike and a herald buffs them into 6 12" range pistol heavy flamers. Mean as a mother hubbard and great at clearing infantry.
Plus, Exalted Flamers are also an amazing unit you should consider because it does that magical thing the thousand sons cant get enough of which is kill tanks. Character protection, fly, likes daemon prince hit rerolls.
So, next question. If you can fill in your daemons as your chaff/utility units, do we really need the goats?
Oh sorry thought you played Thousand Sons Codex, not Daemon codex. They aren't the same as the goats, the utility level is different. Cross comparing a Tzaangor to a daemon unit from the daemon book is a faulty comparison unless they have the same role. They full fill different purposes.
brimstones are chaff, and only chaff. Blue are chaff, and really only chaff (unless i'm missing an interaction, I dont know the daemon dex by heart). Pinks have some excellent shooting when invested in, but at that point your costing the same as the goats anyhow for a different utility of a unit, goats have T4, and have access to *WAY* more buffs stacked to a somewhat ludicrous effect, but the horrors have very good shooting and ability to really spam str 3/4 shooting is of itself a good trick that is also good on the table, but to make it str4 you need to invest in a (minimum) 78 point HQ slot horror taking away from the actual *thousand sons* portion of the army... It is also debatable if a 4++ or a T4 model is the "better" choice.
For our purposes its a no brainer; goats aren't "just" chaff, they are a main-line combat unit. If I want chaff to sit on an objective? yeah brims and some blues I can see working fine, right along with cultists working just fine.... but for any kind of "line" duty? your looking minimum at Pink Horrors, or Tzaangors. and in my experience that T4 goes a long way to keeping them on the table. Statistically they are almost as survivable as a space marine (obviously a 5++ vs a 3+) for around half the points cost, and have better combat (or equivocal combat) to an assault marine...for less then half the points cost.
topaxygouroun i wrote: So, next question. If you can fill in your daemons as your chaff/utility units, do we really need the goats?
Careful, you go much further down the logical path you'll realize you don't need Thousand Sons at all. It's hard to come back from that, trust me.
That hit me harder than a 10 ton truck.
You don't "need" anything. From a purely competitive standpoint, you don't "need" anything except the best possible competitive list, and then you don't need anything but the next one after it gets nerfed.
The overall point of the tactics threads are generally how to make things work with the army in the title, whether or not they're the most optimal thing in the game at any given moment. Many people don't like the goats, I consider Daemons to be a more interesting option and generally more economical anyway, so I'll support my thousand sons with some daemons.
The role of Tzaangors as a mainline combat bomb is not usually done by daemons. I would say though that you can safely replace cultists in their chaff role with brimstones. Brims are generally superior in my eyes, even if just for the one point. Pinks vs tzaangors...not as good an analogue as someone said. Pinks tend to be a bit less of a one-turn wonder, both the first part and the second part of that statement. More consistently good over several turns than a pressure piece. Both support a rubric-based army just fine.
Caederes wrote: I've been testing out a few things with the army in both friendly and competitive match-ups, and I've learned some things very quickly.
Those are some great pointers. Here are some counter-questions:
1) Are 20-man rubrics not vulnerable to morale losses?
2) Do you think rhino-deploying is a viable way of limiting the drops of a character-heavy army, and/or protecting rubrics against alpha strikes?
3) Is tzaangors always better than cultists?
4) Are shamans worth it?
5) What unit size for tzangoors? Always give them a bray horn? Is there any reason to run chainswords and pistols, ever?
6) Is there any reason to run horrors without heralds?
Regards
Thank you and Daedalus for the feedback!
1) They are, but they are also a great target for the 2CP morale stratagem. Provided you have defensive buffs on them, they are hard to shift, especially if you luck out with terrain placement and plop them in cover; it can get to a point that some armies won't be able to really do that much damage to them at all depending on whether they can get close to them or not.
2) If you're running multiple Rubric units, definitely. I take two Wave Serpents in all of my Eldar lists for similar reasons because deciding who gets the first turn can be critical, and Rhinos don't seem half bad to me, especially with the possibility of using Warpflame Gargoyles on an unsuspecting opponent.
3) Not always. If you want to fill out Troops slots in detachments cheaply, take Cultists; they fill the role of bubble-wrap and meat-shields better. If you want to run Tzaangors, run them in bigger units and buff them up with Shamans/Mutaliths/psychic powers/stratagems and use them either as counter-assault or as a teleporting/Warptimed assault force. You can substitute Cultists for them but you end up spending a lot of extra points on models that, in small units, are primarily there to soak up shooting.
4) It depends, really. Sorcerers are a better psyker choice for the extra cast per turn and access to Dark Hereticus if you want a cheap psyker, so the Shaman really comes into his own if you've filled up your HQ slots or you have Tzaangors to buff. If you teleport Tzaangors in front of your opponent, trying to get a Shaman in range to buff them is extremely difficult unless you use the Dark Matter Crystal on him, something I feel is a bit of a waste. Tzaangor blobs can get Prescience if they really need to hit on 2s, and they can get other buffs to a point that +1 to-hit isn't so crucial. Where Shamans shine is with Enlightened of either type, a Shaman is a must take for the Bow Enlightened in particular. Spear Enlightened in large numbers might be worth using Warptime and Prescience on so they can to far away targets, at which point - like Deep Striking Tzaangors - it's hard for the Shaman to keep up with them.
5) I always go a minimum of 20 but I prefer closer to 30 to maximize the buff powers, though I Deep Strike mine which might be different to how others use their Tzaangors. If you use them as screens instead of Cultists, keep them at 10 so morale doesn't punish them too hard. Brayhorn is a necessity if you Deep Strike them, otherwise it's very good but in some cases the points can be better spent elsewhere. Screening Tzaangors don't need it. Chainswords and Pistols are...eh. A single pistol shot each that hits on 4+ (or better with buffs) at S4 AP0 with such a short range is not great, even for large squads, especially if your opponent is smart and takes casualties from the front to increase your charge range. You only get benefit from the pistols before you charge and if you stay in combat into your next turn, it makes no difference in the enemy turn (and the Overwatch is "meh" if that comes up). I'd much rather have that permanent -1AP so that their combat prowess is actually something to be afraid of. In my specific list where my Tzaangors are going to be charging off of Deep Strike via Warptime, the Tzaangor Blades are the clear winner.
6) Generally speaking you'll have Horrors in a Battalion detachment for cheap CPs, meaning you'll have 2 HQs. One of those should always be a Herald of Tzeentch because they are cheap, the other can be whatever you want. The Blue Scribes can be part of an anti-psyker/negative psychic test modifier bomb (I know that in concert a Chaos list can make you -4 to cast and steal powers, I don't know the details), a Lord of Change can be a major fire magnet with the 3++/reduce damage by 1 combo of relic and Warlord Trait, and the Changeling gives a helpful 6++. In general terms, Blue and Brimstone Horrors don't really care if they are near a Herald or not. Pink Horrors, however, very much want a Herald with them for the +1 Strength, though you can also be cheeky and chuck the +1 Strength bonus from a Mutalith on them should a Herald be unavailable for whatever reason.
TwinPoleTheory wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote: So, next question. If you can fill in your daemons as your chaff/utility units, do we really need the goats?
Careful, you go much further down the logical path you'll realize you don't need Thousand Sons at all. It's hard to come back from that, trust me.
Funny that seeing as this is a Thousand Sons Tactics thread. If you were to keep a Tzeentch theme, Tzeentch Daemons can't match a Thousand Sons psychic phase for potency or usefulness by virtue of being restricted to one discipline. Meanwhile, Thousand Sons get three disciplines, one of which is IMO one of the best psychic disciplines in the game (Dark Hereticus) Thousand Sons have a more efficient psychic phase as well by virtue of paying a smidge over 100 for 2 casts compared to just under 80 for 1 cast. Tzeentch Daemons have no easy way of getting their melee units into combat. Thousand Sons do thanks to Warptime, and that's a critical ability to have in a lot of match-ups. Tzeentch Daemons also can't compete with Thousand Sons for heavy firepower seeing as a Soul Grinder is pants compared to a Defiler, Forgefiend or Predator.
General Chaos is, of course, a different story. There are things they can offer to other armies though, namely super high value Daemon Princes, and this is speaking competitively.
If you were to keep a Tzeentch theme, Tzeentch Daemons can't match a Thousand Sons psychic phase for potency or usefulness by virtue of being restricted to one discipline. Meanwhile, Thousand Sons get three disciplines, one of which is IMO one of the best psychic disciplines in the game (Dark Hereticus) Thousand Sons have a more efficient psychic phase as well by virtue of paying a smidge over 100 for 2 casts compared to just under 80 for 1 cast. Tzeentch Daemons have no easy way of getting their melee units into combat. Thousand Sons do thanks to Warptime, and that's a critical ability to have in a lot of match-ups. Tzeentch Daemons also can't compete with Thousand Sons for heavy firepower seeing as a Soul Grinder is pants compared to a Defiler, Forgefiend or Predator.
I did not say daemons vs Thousand Sons. I said daemons vs goats as a support to the thousand sons. Main reason is the simple obvious one: I own the daemons but I don't own any goats.
For a deamon prince (assuming pure tsons) Gaze of Fate always as one of the 2, but that may be because I want that sweet reroll without spending a command point.
The roll your giving it is important though. Is it a beat stick? Fast support? Fire Support? Counter assault? With so many options there isn't any one set up to go with.
You choose spells before deployment, not during list building.
Therefore, you adjust your spell selection (or even just who has what with the same spells) to adjust to your enemy.
For example, sometimes you want death hex on your termi sorcerer warlord for that critical supercast, other times you don't even take it.
I did not say daemons vs Thousand Sons. I said daemons vs goats as a support to the thousand sons. Main reason is the simple obvious one: I own the daemons but I don't own any goats.
What? I was replying to the person who quoted you, not you
Also, to answer your question directly; do you own any Bloodletters? If not, Tzaangors fill the role of Deep Striking melee infantry bomb used primarily to kill or tie up enemies, halting their Shooting phase and giving your more valuable stuff time to advance. If you just want chaff clearing alone from the Tzaangors, Pink Horrors do it better in most cases and need less support (i.e. they aren't so reliant on Warptime)
Sasori wrote: What does everyone think is the optimal powers per psyker right now?
I understand it can depend on the army, but I imagine there are some powers you generally want to take.
I.E. What do you guys think are the preferred powers for the Daemon Prince and Magnus?
Depends on what I'm up against and what I'm fielding.
The only power I'd always take on my Daemon Prince is Gaze of Fate, as he's the only model I have who has access to Discipline of Tzeentch.
As for what powers to pick, this is how I rate them:
Good powers, works in most lists and against almost any opponent:
- Glamour of Tzeentch.
- Temporal Manipulation.
- Weaver of Fates.
- Infernal Gaze.
- Prescience.
- Warptime.
- Gaze of Fate.
Good powers, but a bit situational. Might not suit every list or opponent:
- Boon of Mutation. (requires a recipient)
- Death Hex. (Great vs. the right opponent, useless vs. the wrong opponent.)
- Diabolic Strength. (requires the right recipient)
- Boon of Change. (requires the right recipient)
- Flickering Flames. (requires the right recipient)
Meh powers. Only take if I have slots to spare:
- Doombolt (too high WC)
- Gift of Chaos. (Not a bad power per se against T3 armies, but it's way down on the list for me.)
- Bolt of Change (too high WC, worse than Doombolt.)
- Tzeentch's Firestorm. (I end up taking this in every list because Asp Sorc's/SOT Sorc's/Shamans can only take powers from D.o. Change, and all other powers have been taken already.)
Bad powers. I'd rather take another power twice and have as backup than take these:
Funny thing about Infernal Gateway, if you put it on a psyker with good mobility and you play against an opponent that isn't prepared for it, it can be absolutely brutal. It's worked only once so far in my test games but....boy, did it work! Generally speaking though? Yeah, not worth it.
Also, when you put Doombolt on a caster with +2 to cast, the WC value is a bit easier to stomach. It's like Death Hex where it can completely shut down a particular enemy unit - Death Hex makes them easier to kill, Doombolt screws up their mobility - and it has served me well in some of my games so far. Custodes Jetbikes, Mortarion (if you go first and he's relying on Warptime, you buy yourself at least one extra turn before he reaches you) Can also be a game-changer against Kraken Genestealer rush by making one unit useless, allowing you to focus on the others.
Just some food for thought for our less popular powers, they are definitely situational but can be incredible in the right situation. A huge part of winning with Thousand Sons will be prioritizing the right powers based on your opponents' armies on a game-by-game basis. Death Hex is probably the most swingy power we have; against a lot of units, it's the best power we have; against others, it functionally doesn't help. Take Custodes for example, unless you have AP-3 or better then removing their invulnerable saves doesn't help given that they have army-wide 2+ armour saves, other than dropping any 3++ invulnerables they have back to their "normal" 4++ saves.
You choose spells before deployment, not during list building.
Therefore, you adjust your spell selection (or even just who has what with the same spells) to adjust to your enemy.
For example, sometimes you want death hex on your termi sorcerer warlord for that critical supercast, other times you don't even take it.
I know this. Perhaps I worded my question poorly, but I'm looking to find out what people see are some of the most efficient spells, per use on the caster. I understand the situation dictates this a lot, but Imagine there is going to be some consenses on you should usually have X powers if running Magnus, or X spells on the Daemon prince if running him. Example is that several people of pointed out you should always be taking Gaze on the DP.
Sasori wrote: What does everyone think is the optimal powers per psyker right now?
I understand it can depend on the army, but I imagine there are some powers you generally want to take.
I.E. What do you guys think are the preferred powers for the Daemon Prince and Magnus?
Depends on what I'm up against and what I'm fielding.
The only power I'd always take on my Daemon Prince is Gaze of Fate, as he's the only model I have who has access to Discipline of Tzeentch.
As for what powers to pick, this is how I rate them:
Good powers, works in most lists and against almost any opponent:
- Glamour of Tzeentch.
- Temporal Manipulation.
- Weaver of Fates.
- Infernal Gaze.
- Prescience.
- Warptime.
- Gaze of Fate.
Good powers, but a bit situational. Might not suit every list or opponent:
- Boon of Mutation. (requires a recipient)
- Death Hex. (Great vs. the right opponent, useless vs. the wrong opponent.)
- Diabolic Strength. (requires the right recipient)
- Boon of Change. (requires the right recipient)
- Flickering Flames. (requires the right recipient)
Meh powers. Only take if I have slots to spare:
- Doombolt (too high WC)
- Gift of Chaos. (Not a bad power per se against T3 armies, but it's way down on the list for me.)
- Bolt of Change (too high WC, worse than Doombolt.)
- Tzeentch's Firestorm. (I end up taking this in every list because Asp Sorc's/SOT Sorc's/Shamans can only take powers from D.o. Change, and all other powers have been taken already.)
Bad powers. I'd rather take another power twice and have as backup than take these:
- Treason of Tzeentch.
- Infernal Gateway.
I expect disagreements, but this is my list.
Thanks, this is excellent. I am suprised though at Infernal Gateway, I thought that was a pretty powerful power.
Gateway is powerful only in the right hands and only at the right time and only in the right match-up. Getting it to work to a degree where it cascades out is extremely tough, casting it at 18" thanks to our Legion trait alleviates one problem but the "must target the closest model" bit can only be helped by giving the power to someone who can either Deep Strike or move quickly enough to take advantage of it. Said psyker also needs big casting bonuses to make sure the power goes off as it is hard to cast, let alone getting the 12+ version! That limits which models you would take it on, and you need to wait for a good target to present itself before you bother using it. If you manage to slap a vehicle/monster/big model that's supporting other units as the primary target, you're in business. If not? It's hard going.
For reference, I managed to pull it off on a bunch of clumped characters and got the D6 mortal wounds version by slinging it off a Razorback from my Deep Striking Sorcerer in Terminator Armour with +4 to cast (he had Rubric buddies next to him for Cabalistic Focus), managing to get the 12+ version. Suffice to say, it was a one-in-a-million shot, but it won the game.
Caederes wrote: Gateway is powerful only in the right hands and only at the right time and only in the right match-up. Getting it to work to a degree where it cascades out is extremely tough, casting it at 18" thanks to our Legion trait alleviates one problem but the "must target the closest model" bit can only be helped by giving the power to someone who can either Deep Strike or move quickly enough to take advantage of it. Said psyker also needs big casting bonuses to make sure the power goes off as it is hard to cast, let alone getting the 12+ version! That limits which models you would take it on, and you need to wait for a good target to present itself before you bother using it. If you manage to slap a vehicle/monster/big model that's supporting other units as the primary target, you're in business. If not? It's hard going.
For reference, I managed to pull it off on a bunch of clumped characters and got the D6 mortal wounds version by slinging it off a Razorback from my Deep Striking Sorcerer in Terminator Armour with +4 to cast (he had Rubric buddies next to him for Cabalistic Focus), managing to get the 12+ version. Suffice to say, it was a one-in-a-million shot, but it won the game.
This makes a lot of sense, I forgot about the closest model clause in it.
So, I don't know whether there are too many auto-includes for me, but I'd consider these essential:
1) Diabolic Strength on a daemon prince. S7-S9 and +1A is so gigantically huge in my book. I'd never bring a wingprince without this power.
2) Gaze of Fate I do rate highly, but I also always bring a daemon battalion and 99% of the time, that means I have Flickering Flames and Gaze of Fate on my two daemony bois. Usually changeling rocks Gaze and the Fateskimmer FF, because the skimmer can pretty much always be in range to cast it with his gigantic move.
3) Warptime, obviously, on either your termie sorc or your fastest psyker, hopefully with a bonus to cast. This is arguably the worst spell to fail in the tsons arsenal because failing nearly always puts you in an awful position, either with a deep striking unit hanging with their diabolical schemes out in the breeze or a daemon prince or engine sitting halfway between your lines and the enemy units he was trying to blitz.
So typically my setup is:
Termie sorc: Warptime and flex power (usually a buff for whatever unit he shepherds in, like Glamour or Prescience)
DP: Diabolic Strength and flex power (often an offensive power or Weaver to give himself a 3++. Since he's good at positioning close to vital targets, he often gets Gateway.)
Ahriman: Prescience, then either two offensive spells (if I want the option of unloading three Mortal Wound spells on a target. Usually I go this route against elite enemy armies or conversely Character-heavy T3 enemy armies like Guard or Sisters so I can bring the Gift of Chaos pain train) or two buff/debuff spells, leaning heavily on Dark Hereticus powers to leave Change powers free on my rubrics
Rubrics: Distortion, Boon if I have any walking characters (usually termie sorc), Weaver, Glamor, sometimes Firestorm if I'm against a more elite army I know will be in my face.
Daemon Bois: Gaze of Fate, Flickering Flames, and then usually an offensive spell like Gateway as the backup on the herald.
I tried a game out with the Tzaangor bomb - mine was a little less supported with just a deepstriking termie sorc. to give them warptime and prescience from Ahriman.
I was playing against a fairly guardian heavy list (effectively one screening unit and 2 punchy units) and overall I was pleased. I held my tzaangors until turn 2 and used my cultist bomb first turn to clear his screen then the tzaangors dropped turn 2 and cleared one of his 2 punchy units of guardians. Overall I was pretty pleased with the unit and I think I'll be able to find a consistent place for it in my lists.
Caederes wrote: Funny thing about Infernal Gateway, if you put it on a psyker with good mobility and you play against an opponent that isn't prepared for it, it can be absolutely brutal. It's worked only once so far in my test games but....boy, did it work! Generally speaking though? Yeah, not worth it.
Also, when you put Doombolt on a caster with +2 to cast, the WC value is a bit easier to stomach. It's like Death Hex where it can completely shut down a particular enemy unit - Death Hex makes them easier to kill, Doombolt screws up their mobility - and it has served me well in some of my games so far. Custodes Jetbikes, Mortarion (if you go first and he's relying on Warptime, you buy yourself at least one extra turn before he reaches you) Can also be a game-changer against Kraken Genestealer rush by making one unit useless, allowing you to focus on the others.
Just some food for thought for our less popular powers, they are definitely situational but can be incredible in the right situation. A huge part of winning with Thousand Sons will be prioritizing the right powers based on your opponents' armies on a game-by-game basis. Death Hex is probably the most swingy power we have; against a lot of units, it's the best power we have; against others, it functionally doesn't help. Take Custodes for example, unless you have AP-3 or better then removing their invulnerable saves doesn't help given that they have army-wide 2+ armour saves, other than dropping any 3++ invulnerables they have back to their "normal" 4++ saves.
So how stupid would it be to take Ahriman on a disk and load him up with only offensive spells and send him off to slay some dudes? Would probably give him an entourage of a Shaman and six Skyfires, both to keep him safe and so the Skyfires have maximum damage potential.
I'd go for Infernal Gaze and Tzeentch's Firestorm if I were going offensive with Ahriman, then prescience for the enlightened entourage. They're both at 24", and both allow you to target characters. Shaman can take Glamour or weaver to buff the birds' survivability. You can still throw out smite with your two offensive spells if the need arises, but 4+ auto wounding is legit, and easy to achieve. With 9 models that's 10 auto wounds, and 7 at S5. That means they'll drop 6 wounds on a Russ in a turn, on average, for example.
Plus your mobility means you'll be able to line up the 3 psykers for cabal strat on the fly.
409pts for Ahriman, the Shaman and 9 Enlightened, which is quite a chunk, but might be worth it.
taetrius67 wrote: Is it better to get bow or spear on the enlighted?
Apples and Oranges. Like a Mutilator and an Obliterator, they do different things.
With bows they're better at killing infantry and have the versatility of being a shooty unit that can also clear chaff in close combat.
With spears they're better at killing monsters/vehicles/characters but can't shoot.
What's everyone doing to get Command Points? Most of the lists I've been building have about 6 CP. I'm thinking maybe an extra battalion with some brimstone horrors for chaff.
Sasori wrote: What's everyone doing to get Command Points? Most of the lists I've been building have about 6 CP. I'm thinking maybe an extra battalion with some brimstone horrors for chaff.
What is everyone else doing for this?
I plan on running a Daemon battalion along with my TS in the near future.
2 changecasters (I'll use both Gaunt summoners) or 1 changecaster and the Changeling (when I run 2 Defilers)
3x 10 Brimstones
That's 246-268pts for Gaze of fate, Flickering flames and 30 chaff models. Hard to beat. The psykers will buff my Daemon engines and/or Tzeentch Flamers (I like to summon 6 of them) and the chaff hold objectives or protect my Thousand Sons.
Along with that, I run a Thousand Sons battalion for a total of 9CP, which is plenty enough (especially since we have the Helm).
Let’s talk helbrute weapons. What is everyone running? Part of me wants to go super cheap with reaper or tl bolter and missile launcher and then just use fire frenzy every turn, or spend the CP and give it’s hvy bolters ap-2. For 114 points with tl hvy bolters and ML it’s a good little anti infantry fire support.
Or you can soup it up for anti tank duty with tl las but I feel it’s a bit too easy to pop then
Then with the tl las ML option is it worth it as that? 147 pts isn’t terrible but it’s pretty easy to pop, a predator with full las is 190 but can degrade.
Or are we basically going to be popping tanks up close and have our long range stuff take potshots?
Hi guys, what about use hellforged predator instead normal Predator, It can be hurt on melee and have access to more weapons, yes, D6 mortals on psic units when it explotes hurts, but whatever.
And what about contemptor Double double heavy bolter with the Inferno ammonition stratagem. For 2CP you have 24 shots s5-2 36um hitting at 2+, put extalted here and party hard.
I think (true) Helbrutes are in a bad spot in our codex.
A TL-Las / ML is... average, but it pales in comparison to everything else we can run or Alpha legion ones. If I ever wanted to run Helbrutes with this configuration, I would take an Alpha Legion Chaos Lord with 3 Helbrutes as an allied Vanguard detachment.
As Thousand Sons, I would only ever run a dual fist version for 122pts and Warptime it forward (with Daemonic strength maybe). Cheap distraction unit that can be devastating if left alone.
TL-Heavy bolters and Missile launcher are both too expensive on this plateform (or rather, the plateform is too expensive to carry such low-performing weapons efficiently).
Nym wrote: I think (true) Helbrutes are in a bad spot in our codex.
A TL-Las / ML is... average, but it pales in comparison to everything else we can run or Alpha legion ones. If I ever wanted to run Helbrutes with this configuration, I would take an Alpha Legion Chaos Lord with 3 Helbrutes as an allied Vanguard detachment.
As Thousand Sons, I would only ever run a dual fist version for 122pts and Warptime it forward (with Daemonic strength maybe). Cheap distraction unit that can be devastating if left alone.
TL-Heavy bolters and Missile launcher are both too expensive on this plateform (or rather, the plateform is too expensive to carry such low-performing weapons efficiently).
Yai as contemptor has the hell brute key i think IS the only way for use brutes on thousan actually.
My main concern is vehicles and monsters. I think I've got most everything else covered pretty well. This is only V1 of the list so I am plenty open to suggestions!
Does the fire frenzy strategy work on contemptors?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And a thought. The vindicator laser destroyer. Heavy 2 str 10 ap-5 6 damage. Coupled with a death hex could put some serious hurt on some of these monstrosities
Automatically Appended Next Post: And a thought. The vindicator laser destroyer. Heavy 2 str 10 ap-5 6 damage. Coupled with a death hex could put some serious hurt on some of these monstrosities
Curzex wrote: Hi guys, what about use hellforged predator instead normal Predator, It can be hurt on melee and have access to more weapons, yes, D6 mortals on psic units when it explotes hurts, but whatever.
And what about contemptor Double double heavy bolter with the Inferno ammonition stratagem. For 2CP you have 24 shots s5-2 36um hitting at 2+, put extalted here and party hard.
Sadly the inferno ammunition strategem only allows you to pick ONE weapon on the target to be AP-2. It's very bad.
Curzex wrote: Hi guys, what about use hellforged predator instead normal Predator, It can be hurt on melee and have access to more weapons, yes, D6 mortals on psic units when it explotes hurts, but whatever.
And what about contemptor Double double heavy bolter with the Inferno ammonition stratagem. For 2CP you have 24 shots s5-2 36um hitting at 2+, put extalted here and party hard.
Sadly the inferno ammunition strategem only allows you to pick ONE weapon on the target to be AP-2. It's very bad.
Yes, but a twin heavy bolter counts as one weapon with regards to the inferno ammunition stratagem.
Curzex wrote: Hi guys, what about use hellforged predator instead normal Predator, It can be hurt on melee and have access to more weapons, yes, D6 mortals on psic units when it explotes hurts, but whatever.
And what about contemptor Double double heavy bolter with the Inferno ammonition stratagem. For 2CP you have 24 shots s5-2 36um hitting at 2+, put extalted here and party hard.
Sadly the inferno ammunition strategem only allows you to pick ONE weapon on the target to be AP-2. It's very bad.
Yes, but a twin heavy bolter counts as one weapon with regards to the inferno ammunition stratagem.
Yes but what? We're talking about a contemptor with 2 TL heavy bolters here.
I don't see us as having a reason to run any helbrute but the contemptor, to make use of the fact that ours can fire frenzy while nobody else's can (for the moment, at least. I suspect our FAQ may include one for DG and CSM, changing the CSMs rubrics to 1 in 10 soulreaper and giving them the FF stratagem that works by keyword)
The only real reason is to fill an Elite slot if you're going for a brigade. In that instance I'd go las/ml because daddy needs anti-tank.
it lacks the daemon keyword which its competitors have, it has no invuln to boost up with Weaver, it doesn't benefit from our CT at all... I'm not feeling the basic brute.
Hellforged Contemptor on the other hand, I love. Double butchers all day every day.
Honestly though-why not simply take a helforged with any other legion?
I mean, literally ANY legion is strictly superior to TS once you factor the fact the stratagem will be FAQed one way or another without a doubt.
Yea, our basic helbrutes suck. for out helforged variants rely on gimmik stratagem that is likely getting FAQed in our already CP-hungry army. if you want helbrutes, or any of the bigger variants-take liturally any other legion.
If you want to play on the gimmik though-I agree that a contemptor may be good, but why not go a step further with a deredo armed with butcher array, THB and greater havoc?
Thougher body, and more guns to get the value of the CP off to.
Though I gotta say, using a non-CC helforged seems awkward, as you can't benefit from the healing factor you ARE paying for.
In any case, this is my current 2k list.
Goat free, magnus free (daemons inside though). and seems to work pretty well by virtue of alpha strike
Spoiler:
Terminator Sorcerer /w infcombi, axe, familiar-warlord (probably magistar), helm of third eye
Disk Ahriman
TS prince, wings and axe, dark matter crystal
BoomWolf wrote: Honestly though-why not simply take a helforged with any other legion?
I mean, literally ANY legion is strictly superior to TS once you factor the fact the stratagem will be FAQed one way or another without a doubt.
Yea, our basic helbrutes suck. for out helforged variants rely on gimmik stratagem that is likely getting FAQed in our already CP-hungry army. if you want helbrutes, or any of the bigger variants-take liturally any other legion.
If you want to play on the gimmik though-I agree that a contemptor may be good, but why not go a step further with a deredo armed with butcher array, THB and greater havoc?
Thougher body, and more guns to get the value of the CP off to.
Though I gotta say, using a non-CC helforged seems awkward, as you can't benefit from the healing factor you ARE paying for.
In any case, this is my current 2k list.
Goat free, magnus free (daemons inside though). and seems to work pretty well by virtue of alpha strike
Spoiler:
Terminator Sorcerer /w infcombi, axe, familiar-warlord (probably magistar), helm of third eye
Disk Ahriman
TS prince, wings and axe, dark matter crystal
The warlord, because I value the ability to supercast a singular critical spell very much. considering we pick spells AFTER seeing the enemy, I can pick a counter-spell on my terminator sorcerer, having him cast it with +2 as his first spell, or a decently likely +3 by placing a boon on him first (from the scarab) and pull up cabal casting for a +4/+5 to cast that spell.
Honestly, I don't like that trait very much. I'd rank it as the third trait in value, maybe.
Magistar being the best for sheer flexibility of casting better, and the ability to create a supercaster termi sorcerer.
Aetherstride being a second for it fact it lets your prince move and hit combat FAST, against your choice of target (especially if he can warptime himself and has wings. 24+2d6" before you even roll charge distance means nothing you hit whatever you want.)
Basically, I'm from the school of thought that "you don't need defenses against dead enemies"
Then there is the sad case of arrogance, who was insane on ahriman/magnus against enemy psyker lists, but honestly is just bad on anyone else. so amusingly the codex turned it from an amazing silver bullet into plain bad.
As for anti tank.
I have to trust the VotLW scarabs to do some work with the missiles/soulreapers on the drop, and then the princes to take care of it after. (and some random psyker dakka I guess)
That's basically why I gave my princes axes rather than swords-axes are better at cracking open armor.
Now, against a full-on armored battalion, I am probably in trouble. but against a -sane- number of tanks, I should be fine. and if its not a <fly> tank, I can entangle it with some horrors or something.
More than 2?
I'd say 2 is enough exalted flamers. (forgot to point them out as additional AT solutions, rather obvious though, isn't it?)
Besides, I got nothing to shave off really. that list is exactly 2000 points of maximal optimizations. I need to change a LOT in order to fit another exalted flamer.
This is the list I'm going for at the moment. It might look like it's lacking anti tank, but the DP and Tzaangors with VotLW are enough to blow up any T7 vehicle.
I'll be running tests soon
PLAYER : Haechi
DETACHMENT : Bataillon
HQ1 : Ahriman on Disc of Tzeentch [166]
HQ2 : Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with wings [180]
HQ3 : Sorcerer in Terminator Armor with Familiar [140]
Troup1 : 20 Rubric Marines with 2 Soulreaper cannons [433]
Troup2 : 30 Tzaangors with horn [220]
Troup3 : 30 Tzaangors with horn [220]
Elite1 : 10 Scarab Occult terminator with 2 hellfyre racks [448]
Elite2 : Tzaangor Shaman [90]
FA1 : 6 Tzaangor Enlightened with bows [102]
Total detachment : 1999
Haechi wrote: This is the list I'm going for at the moment. It might look like it's lacking anti tank, but the DP and Tzaangors with VotLW are enough to blow up any T7 vehicle.
I'll be running tests soon
PLAYER : Haechi
ARMY TOTAL [1999]
I'm going to try this one - painting my Enligtened right now
nintura wrote: Now if only Defiler's could get a better looking model. Like the Soulgrinder
I think that new Mini-knight fig they previewed recently seems like a prime candidate to convert into a really cool defiler.
Link?
I was talking about the Knight Armiger. There's a pic in the OPhere. It kind of depends on exactly how big it is, but I hate the Defiler model enough to explore every viable alternative, especially ones that will be tourney legal.
On a separate note, I'm putting a KSons slash Tzeentch Demon list together and I'm a little stuck. I won't post the whole list in detail, but I'll drop the broad strokes:
KSons: Arhiman on disc, Winged DP, Big unit of Goats, cultist filler, Shaman
Demons 1 : LoC, Changecaster, 30 Horrors, 27 Horrors, min Brim
Demons 2: Fluxmaster, 2 Exalted Flamers, 6 Flamers
The thought was to hit the psychic phase hard, DS some horrors to kill chaff, Webway Tzaangors to follow, season with Flamers, and serve with Large Demons punching people in the face. That's 10CPs, so there's room for shenanigans.
My difficulty is this: Magnus isn't all that much more than a LoC, and he's dead sexy. One the other hand, I'm already humming and hahing about the LoC because I think even with the robes he'll get nuked pretty fast 'cause there's nothing else worth shooting AT at. So, I have three options:
1. Find 135pts and upgrade to Magnus
2. Stick with the LoC 3. Downsize to a winged DP, spend 140pts elsewhere.
Thoughts? About the points. or the list in general I guess.
I personally think that Magnus does not worth it competitive. He can hit hard but requires too much buffing - -1 to hit, +1 save, heal d3 etc
All those powers can be spend on killing enemies. His damage output is great but 8ed is edition of hordes. He can kill tanks easily but there are too many ways to just kill him: -1 to all saves from Eldars, remove invul save from CSM, nasty deny from Tyranids etc
He is okay for friendly or medium-hardcode game but it is 450pts spent for 1 model which can push hard, die easy and do not give any board control.
You can play Magnus as buffer and firepower soaker - he does not fly forward but stays with your army giving reroll 1's for casts and cast some offensive spells but... As it said imho he requires too many powers to keep him alive.
The very bad thing about Magnus - if you do not go first he can die before his turn 1 with his 4++. And only this can be the reason why you should not bring him for competitive game. imho
Yeah, I'd had all those same thoughts about magnus. The LoC still does solid work in the psychic phase, and the 3++ is, well, better than a 4++ I guess.
Tactically, I like the idea of having more than one caster with a bonus to cast, hence Ahriman and the LoC. I'm loath to give that up in a downgrade, but I do worry that even the 3++ won't be enough in the absence of any target saturation whatsoever. And yeah, I'd rather be zapping dudes in the psychic phase, all other things being equal.
I would downgrade to a DP. Heck my current setup I am trying to do 2 dp's, ones from deamon codex and one from tsons. Get them both at 3++ saves and let them have fun.
But the Lord of change, I enjoy taking him but he is only worth it if you can cover yourself with some serious target saturation. If that's the only "big guy / target for heavy weapons" then it doesn't matter how tough he is, he is going to get shot at.
Of course, you could deep strike him to protect him until your first turn.
MinscS2 wrote: ArtyomTrityak - Our Daemon Princes don't have the option to take Warpbolters I'm afraid.
We can take warpbolters from Index: Chaos due to GW Can-I-Use chart.
Azuza001 wrote: I would downgrade to a DP. Heck my current setup I am trying to do 2 dp's, ones from deamon codex and one from tsons. Get them both at 3++ saves and let them have fun.
But the Lord of change, I enjoy taking him but he is only worth it if you can cover yourself with some serious target saturation. If that's the only "big guy / target for heavy weapons" then it doesn't matter how tough he is, he is going to get shot at.
Of course, you could deep strike him to protect him until your first turn.
I prefer to give +1 to cast to DP instead +1 to invul save. He works like my counter-charge, long range magic + warpbolter, reroll 1s to hit buffer.
I dont run magnu anymore, because as others have said 8th ed is the editon of hordes and hes just not worth it, ive had some success running him with a knight and or fire raptor but thats about it
Y'know I quite like the LoC now. I run him with incorporeal form too for -1 damage, as most things shooting at him will be multidamage.
He has other tempting traits but I find the -1 damage really dampens your opponent's interest in shooting your chicken.
He's not fantastic by any means, but he's done great work in most of his games. His one big downside is the S of his CC attacks - it really sucks that he can't be buffed other than with boon of change. Although every result on that table is nice for him, S8 would make him a lot more flexible. As it is, he's a bit of a schoolyard bully.
His biggest threat is death hex, but of course he has +2 to deny it, which is as good a defence as you can get against that evil spell.
His bigest weakness is the terrible quality of the Discipline of Tzeentch. Seriously, that discipline is utter pants. HOW did they settle on WC9 for bolt of change? What were they smoking? At least his mobility allows him to try and hit a second unit with infernal gateway sometimes.
Yeah, low strength is really annoying on the big chicken, but if you have some Mutaliths handing around they can bump him to the break points he needs to kick arse.
kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote: Yeah, low strength is really annoying on the big chicken, but if you have some Mutaliths handing around they can bump him to the break points he needs to kick arse.
It's probably worth it to take the baleful sword then right? You hit a little less, but you have higher strength and can deal more damage.
I'm not a huge fan of the sword, -1 to hit hurts so much, espectially if your hanging with a Price to reroll 1s. Also I usually prefer the guaranteed 3 damage over D6. Sepecially since we have access to so many sources of mortal would to knock potential targets to a multiple of 3 wounds left.
That said, it's only 10 point so often I'll squeeze it in as best use for some spare points, you don't have to use it.
Back on 1k sons themselves, how are people finding Enlightened to measure up in practice? They seem solid on paper, but only shine with a support character and aren't exactly hardy. Would love to hear some reports of actual in game performance (I don't have any yet).
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm tempted to use 1-2 5 Goat units of them as cheep (ish) screening unit, without the shaman. 85 point seems like a bargain for 5 with Bows.
Goats look like the stand-out unit in the codex. It's baffling that GW has priced them so cheaply. They are cheaper than basic rubric marines.
I think 81 would be about the number that I'd recommend, with some shamans dotted around the place. You'll get stupid numbers of wounds out of them.
GW have managed to write 3 chaos marine codexes now. The best CSM lists have no chaos marines in. The best Death Guard lists have no Plague marines in and the best Tsons lists have no Rubric marines in. Fail.
There was a few things in the tau list besides commanders, fire warriors, stealth suits and drones, so I wouldn't call it "tournament level" tau, but it was certainly mid-level competitive when it comes to Tau. My tzaangor blob did its thing and honestly I regret the 2cp I spent on Cycle of Slaughter..they killed like 100 points total with both rounds of combat. Their biggest utility was absorbing most of the drop alpha from the Tau, then the rest of the game was pretty much carried on the backs of rubrics and one unit of insanely overachieving flamers.
End of the game, I had my Terminator Sorceror at full health despite having taken 5 wounds (yay temporal distortion) and he was casting at +3 and +2 thanks to Boon of Mutation, Spell Familiar, and Warlord Trait. Rubrics, Scarabs, Contemptor and Sorcerors pretty much tabled the Tau by turn 5 with the daemons just gumming up the works and dying slowly.
Mandragola wrote: Goats look like the stand-out unit in the codex. It's baffling that GW has priced them so cheaply. They are cheaper than basic rubric marines.
I think 81 would be about the number that I'd recommend, with some shamans dotted around the place. You'll get stupid numbers of wounds out of them.
GW have managed to write 3 chaos marine codexes now. The best CSM lists have no chaos marines in. The best Death Guard lists have no Plague marines in and the best Tsons lists have no Rubric marines in. Fail.
Yeah, I've heard lots of this, but do you have any actual experience of using then in a game?
MinscS2 wrote: ArtyomTrityak - Our Daemon Princes don't have the option to take Warpbolters I'm afraid.
We can take warpbolters from Index: Chaos due to GW Can-I-Use chart.
I think that's a questionable interpretation. There is no "Daemon Prince of Tzeentch" in the Index: Chaos. There's an entry for "Daemon Prince," which can take a warp bolter. But "Damon Prince" isn't an option in the Thousand Sons codex.
The Can-I-Use-It chart would seem to imply that the "Daemon Prince" unit from C:CSM can still take Warp Bolters from the index, but the TSDP was specifically given a different, unique name. You might be able to convince some people that because they're represented by the same physical model, you can ignore the fact that they have different names and do a mix-and-match with a Warp Bolter and the DPoT's psychic prowess, but I think it's far from a given. I certainly wouldn't just show up to a tournament with Warp Bolters listed on all my DPs of Tzeentch without checking with the TO in advance.
I think that's a questionable interpretation. There is no "Daemon Prince of Tzeentch" in the Index: Chaos. There's an entry for "Daemon Prince," which can take a warp bolter. But "Damon Prince" isn't an option in the Thousand Sons codex.
The Can-I-Use-It chart would seem to imply that the "Daemon Prince" unit from C:CSM can still take Warp Bolters from the index, but the TSDP was specifically given a different, unique name. You might be able to convince some people that because they're represented by the same physical model, you can ignore the fact that they have different names and do a mix-and-match with a Warp Bolter and the DPoT's psychic prowess, but I think it's far from a given. I certainly wouldn't just show up to a tournament with Warp Bolters listed on all my DPs of Tzeentch without checking with the TO in advance.
That's interesting. It would be great if they would answer this in FAQ
You still can have a Prince with Warp Bolter but you need to use the Index Datasheet for TS Prince (the normal one that can be given a TS keyword as part of a TS army in the Index)
You are not allowed to take equipment from a different datasheet
kodos wrote: You still can have a Prince with Warp Bolter but you need to use the Index Datasheet for TS Prince (the normal one that can be given a TS keyword as part of a TS army in the Index)
You are not allowed to take equipment from a different datasheet
...so he wouldn't get daemon powers or Change or the extra cast....
This will be my 2018 40k tournament army project, building/painting it up from scratch with stuff I already have.
The theme will be Brotherhood of Dust (as there was the hint in Ahriman: Exile that some escaped Ahriman's overtake of the Warband) and I can still use it as Mid-Heresy Legion.
My TS army dates back to 3rd, got a lot of love with 3.5 and I switched to a Tzeentch (ex TS) + Khorne (ex Fantasy) Demon army at the end of 5th. Unfortunate I did not finished painting it before 6th hit, made some Club games in 7th, skipped the whole Brimstone-Madness at the end of 7th, beginning of 8th and now with the new books I am back.
Damon model wise, there are several Flamers, Exalted Flamers, Heralds, Furies and Horros (Pinks and Yellow, funny fact, I build my yellow ones back in 7th as count as Nurglings before Brimstones were added to the game)
The TS consists of enough parts for 30 Rubics, 9 Scarabs (old metal GK-Termis, but I plan to get new ones), several Sorcerer on Foot (would not be a problem to get some discs), several Dreadnoughts, Spire Guard (Cultists), 30k Ahriman, 3 Princes, 4 Rhino chassis and 1 Khemri Sphinx
So everything is there except Tzaangors (and Magnus, but this is not a model I want to carry around), but it should be possible to convert some Enlightened or Shaman if needed.
the main point at the moment is, if I should go for a TS army with daemonic support or with a Demon army with TS support.
(Standard tournaments use 2k points with 3 detachments, Psychic Powers have to be noted on the army list and can not be changed throughout the tournament)
I don't have the possibility to really test different setups at the moment and while I want to take same Rubics, I am not sure if they are worth it.
And going heavy into Tzaangors is not an option as therefore I can just use a full demon army.
For now I have something like this in my mind but I am not really happy with it:
3*TS Prince with Wings
2*5 Rubics
1*10 Cultits
Changeling
2* Fluxmaster
1*6 Flamers
4*1 Exalted Flamer
2*5 Furies (fast screening unit)
2*10 Brimstone
1*10 Pinks
Force Swords that came on the old resin Aspiring Sorceror sculpt? Go F yourself!
Resin?
I remember a time were we all replaced the sword or bolt pistol with a power fist on the metal troop sorcerer
So I have 3 of them with sowerd+power fist
Our next tourney is 1500 pts so thats what I am looking at. I was thinking of dropping the flamers, summoning the changecaster in, and putting a Pred with laz cannons in as a different option. This would also allow me to add some Chaos Spawn in for additional 'anti-alpha-strike' coverage. Or I could just drop a lot of Chaos Spawn and some pink horrors. So many options.
I like the Deamon Princes that we have access to, they are extra awsome, but I don't know if I would run 3 of them. Its an interesting idea.
Furies from my personal experience work best as Mark of Nurgle. 5++/5+++ do wonders as an annoyance / stuck in squad. Whenever I run mine as Tzeentch for 4++ I end up rolling 3's lol. :p
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc pro's:
- 39 pts cheaper
- Can carry the Seer's Bane.
- Has a minor shooting attack with his Inferno bolt pistol. (yay?)
(- If on foot, can be affected by Boon of Mutation.)
(- can buy plasma/warpflame pistol)
Daemon Prince (with 2x Talons) pro's:
- +1 Strength.
- +2 Toughness.
- +3 Wounds.
- +3 Attacks.
- +1 Ld.
- 1 better AP.
- 1 better invuln.
- Aura affects friendly Tzeentch Daemons as well.
- Access to the Discipline of Tzeentch.
Exalted Sorcerers are really in a strange position in this codex, they're not the best at anything:
They're not the best at fighting: Daemon Prince's and even Ahriman is better.
They're not the best at manifesting powers: Terminator Sorcerers and Ahriman is better.
They're not the cheapest: Sorcerers are cheaper if you're looking strictly for a cheap psyker, and Sorcerers are identical as Exalted Sorcerers when it comes to the psychic phase.
They're don't have anything unique: Daemon Prince's and Ahriman also have the aura and access to Fly.
In 7th they'd have the massive advantage of being able to hide in/behind units, but now in 8th so can our Daemon Prince's.
The only worthwhile thing about them is that they can carry Seer's Bane and be affecterd by Boons (if on foot).
The benefits you get from a Daemon Prince over an Exalted Sorcerer is so worth the 39 pts!
Ironically, once you compare the Exalted Sorcerer to the regular Sorcerer, the Exalted looks great (gains a bunch of stats and abilities for a relatively minor cost increase), and that says all about the regular sorcerer.
I can only ever see myself fielding an Exalted (on Disc) when I want to play with Seer's Bane.
Not sure if being able to cast Boon of Mutation on him is worth the drawback of being on foot. I'd rather have the Terminator Sorcerer for that, especially since he can easily reach +3 to cast (familiar, warlord trait, boon.)
That's all true, but sometimes you need to save those points. The 40 pts you pay for the deamon prince is a squad of cultists for covering from alpha strike. It's all about what you can afford vs what you have.
A better observation would also be why take an exalted over Ahriman? Normally I don't take names charecters but Ahriman is just too good, 10 pts for +1 to casts and an extra spell? He'll yes. At least the sorcerer in terminator armor offers something with the familiar.
Yeah Ahriman is such a no-brainer it's not even funny.
+1 manifest.
+2 denies.
+1 power.
+1 to cast and deny.
A better force staff.
A better invuln.
For how much? +10 pts on foot and +25 pts on a Disc?
What does the Exalted have? Nothing? Sold!
Granted, he is unique and unlike a Exalted he can't take a relic (and we have some goooood relics. )
He's also forced to take specific Warlord Trait, one which you don't really want on him. One can circumvent this by making someone else the Warlord however.
I could see an exalted on foot babysitting a gunline. Predators maybe? Really really sad we can't get havocs or obliterators any more.
Also, one daemon question. I see many people going after the exalted flamers for anti tank. Since I suppose this happens for the d3 lascannon shots, why not pay a little extra and get the burning chariots? For 20ish points more we get 4 extra wounds, toughness and more movement. Is there any hidden benefit the exalted flamer has over the burning chariot that I cannot see?
topaxygouroun i wrote: I could see an exalted on foot babysitting a gunline. Predators maybe? Really really sad we can't get havocs or obliterators any more.
Also, one daemon question. I see many people going after the exalted flamers for anti tank. Since I suppose this happens for the d3 lascannon shots, why not pay a little extra and get the burning chariots? For 20ish points more we get 4 extra wounds, toughness and more movement. Is there any hidden benefit the exalted flamer has over the burning chariot that I cannot see?
Exalted Flamers are characters and thus can be hidden behind other units.
topaxygouroun i wrote: I could see an exalted on foot babysitting a gunline. Predators maybe? Really really sad we can't get havocs or obliterators any more.
Also, one daemon question. I see many people going after the exalted flamers for anti tank. Since I suppose this happens for the d3 lascannon shots, why not pay a little extra and get the burning chariots? For 20ish points more we get 4 extra wounds, toughness and more movement. Is there any hidden benefit the exalted flamer has over the burning chariot that I cannot see?
Exalted Flamers are characters and thus can be hidden behind other units.
Yup, simple as that. I would like to see how well a massed burning chariot army would do (10+), but outside of that they stick out as a soft target while exalted flamer can just hide behind some horror. It means that the extra defence is redundant so you're paying the extra points to make it easier to take out and better in combat, usually not worth it.
I would probably put the Terminator sorcerer as the top HQ choice, simply because he is so crucial. If you were limited to, say, two HQs, I would alway take the termie-sorcerer over a DP, simply because you _NEED_ him to teleport in and cast warptime.
I am a little disappointed in Exalted sorcerers. It is not that they are bad as such, the other options just mostly do what exalteds do a little better. And the Exalted box is such a great kit, unlike the demon prince and terminator sorceror models, both of which are kind of meh.
If you want chariots you take the Herald as their they larger base just gives you an advantage
Flamers want to be as small as possible, also for easier placement after deep strike
Azuza001 wrote:.....
Like your list
I would just take Exalted Flames instead
And Furies are tricky, with all the flying characters a mobile/fast screening unit to keep them save while playing aggressive is a must
but they need to be more and the most reliable version does not benefit from our buffs and are too expensive for just a screening unit
Screamers would be another option
MinscS2 wrote:Yeah Ahriman is such a no-brainer it's not even funny.
Main problem with him is, expect a nerf coming if the right people feel upset with him
The other problem is, it makes list building boring and limits your options (why spend more points for a Prince if you have Ahriman)
Main problem with him is, expect a nerf coming if the right people feel upset with him
The other problem is, it makes list building boring and limits your options (why spend more points for a Prince if you have Ahriman)
No problem whatsoever as long as they fix the rest of the TS units (ie 2-3 pts less for rubrics, 3 pts less for the warpflamer, change All is dust rule for Scarabs and factor in the -1 movement penalty for all sons in their points cost, exclude the aspiring smites from the beta ruling).
No problem whatsoever as long as they fix the rest of the TS units (ie 2-3 pts less for rubrics, 3 pts less for the warpflamer, change All is dust rule for Scarabs and factor in the -1 movement penalty for all sons in their points cost, exclude the aspiring smites from the beta ruling).
Both Rubrics and warpflamers will get a point reduction, if we judge from how they handled intercessors and plague marines. I don't see GW making changes to scarabs or or aspiring sorcerers though. It is not like they have gone out of their way to fix GK, even though GK's terminators and mini-psykers are struggling a LOT more than their thousand sons counterparts. Ultimately, to fix terminators they need to nerf overcharged plasma, and I don't think GW is ready for that.
I thought that only imperium players were complaining all day long lol. What is wrong about rubric marines? They have amazing weapons and an amazing rules and a 5+ invulnerable save. Moreover they are such beautiful models, it s a shame not playing them. How much do you want to pay for these? 10 points?
Spado wrote: I thought that only imperium players were complaining all day long lol. What is wrong about rubric marines? They have amazing weapons and an amazing rules and a 5+ invulnerable save. How much do you want to pay for these? 10 points? Geez guys you are never happy...
Everyone pretty much agrees at this point that Space Marine tacticals are overcosted at 13 points.
For 7 points on top of that, Rubrics get
+all is dust
+-2AP on their bolters
+5++
+Warpflamers (extremely expensive), Soulreaper (good but only on ten man squads)
+Sorceror sarge
-No standard special weapon
-No standard heavy weapon
-Perils of the Warp causes an immediate 2d3 damage to squad because lol one wound psyker
-1 movement
They're overcosted by a couple points. I'd pay 18ppm for them happily, especially with a price-corrected warpflamer (over double the cost of a regular flamer for -2ap? That seems steep...)
I have a 2000 game tomorrow against Mortarion and his DG. I will not be bringing Magnus on account of him being unpainted.
Since Mortarion looks like a bundle of trouble, I figure that going pure TS will probably not cut it. So I will ally. Either Daemons or CSM.
The main TS force will probably be a battalion with Ahriman/DP/termi sorc, 3 units of MSU rubrics in troop for objective holding and a 10x Scarab to deepstrike and get the buff treatment. Maybe a Defiler centerpiece.
The rest of the models I have for TS (Predators/Vindi/LR/rhinos) are not very appealing to me. Hence the support:
I do have a solid heavy support array of models from CSM (6 obliterators, autocannon havocs, 5-6 plasma gun chosen/havocs) that I could use. In such a case, how would you field them? Iron Warriors for ignore cover and Alpha legion for extra survivability strike me as the best bets. But then what would the accompanying HQ look like?
Other option is Tzeentch daemons. I have 15-20 pinks, 20 brimstones, 20ish blues, 2 burning chariots with detachable exalted flamers, foot herald, disc herald, blue scribes, DP.
topaxygouroun i wrote: I have a 2000 game tomorrow against Mortarion and his DG. I will not be bringing Magnus on account of him being unpainted.
Since Mortarion looks like a bundle of trouble, I figure that going pure TS will probably not cut it. So I will ally. Either Daemons or CSM.
The main TS force will probably be a battalion with Ahriman/DP/termi sorc, 3 units of MSU rubrics in troop for objective holding and a 10x Scarab to deepstrike and get the buff treatment. Maybe a Defiler centerpiece.
The rest of the models I have for TS (Predators/Vindi/LR/rhinos) are not very appealing to me. Hence the support:
I do have a solid heavy support array of models from CSM (6 obliterators, autocannon havocs, 5-6 plasma gun chosen/havocs) that I could use. In such a case, how would you field them? Iron Warriors for ignore cover and Alpha legion for extra survivability strike me as the best bets. But then what would the accompanying HQ look like?
Other option is Tzeentch daemons. I have 15-20 pinks, 20 brimstones, 20ish blues, 2 burning chariots with detachable exalted flamers, foot herald, disc herald, blue scribes, DP.
Which option would you go for?
Pure TS would probably do great against mortarion. Bring a souped-up termie sorc with the +1 cast WL trait and have him cast your Death Hex the turn you want to take morty out. Then just have something VOTLW at him (Oblits would be best, but I would probably use 10 man SOT squad since I generally run pure Tsons), follow up with a few lascannons and he should be toast.
Just wait for a turn where he doesn't have the -1 to hit buff on him (with how universal our denies are and him having no psychic bonus that should not be hard) and drop the hammer on him.
Spado wrote: I thought that only imperium players were complaining all day long lol. What is wrong about rubric marines? They have amazing weapons and an amazing rules and a 5+ invulnerable save. Moreover they are such beautiful models, it s a shame not playing them. How much do you want to pay for these? 10 points?
Rubics have been to expensive for what they do since 3rd edition
This is a game were movement is King and strength in numbers is the best defense
Therefore a slow, expensive unit with short range will always be bad
making them cheaper is not a solution, adding 30" Bolter or options for fast movement (like portals, but as a unit ability)
I've gotten into the habit of including a cadre tzeentch into my army -- vanguard unit of usually a changeling or herald on disc with three exalted flamers. They are just such useful models, able to really adapt to different situations. I have them follow the demon prince, that way people find it tough to want to deal with them necessarily. They don't hold up well or long to attention from your opponent, and their range can be a bit of an issue, but when they aren't the main source of attention they can sneak some big damage in.
It's an effort to shore up some decent anti-infantry. The idea for me is to pack some real answers like a predator, maybe some hellbrutes with lascannons, forgefiend etc. Then have these guys finishing the job.
So I am trying for hours now to find a good HQ choice for a spearhead detachment of CSM to ally to my TS. Spearhead will be 2 units of oblits + 1 unit of havocs. Here is the problem: Either we must go chaos lord in terminator armor in order to give the Oblits re-roll 1's, or we need to pick a psyker. Sorcerer/DP would do (also DP would give reroll 1's to the obliterators).
However, I just cannot justify how much worse the CSM psykers are against the TS. A TSDP has everything that a CSMDP has, plus 1 power known, 1 power cast, +1 to invul save and access to two more disciplines of spells. For free.
A sorcerer for TS has everything that a normal sorcerer in CSM has, plus 5+ invul and +1 discipline to choose from. For free as well.
I am really battling with sub-optimal choices. How would you complete the list below?
TS battalion:
Ahriman on Disk
Termi Sorc, familiar, helm
TSDP, wings, talons, orb
5x rubrics, plasma pistol on sorc
5x rubrics, plasma pistol on sorc
5x rubrics, plasma pistol on sorc
10 x Scarabs, 2 x hellyfire, 2 x soulcannon
CSM Spearhead:
[INSERT HQ CHOICE]
3 x Oblits of Tzeentch
3 x Oblits of Tzeentch
5 x havocs, 4 x autocannons
I'd probably just toss in a Chaos Lord w/Jump Pack and call it even. Lets you get re-roll 1s on your Oblits, naturally deepstrikes and isn't a costly choice.
Farseer_V2 wrote: I'd probably just toss in a Chaos Lord w/Jump Pack and call it even. Lets you get re-roll 1s on your Oblits, naturally deepstrikes and isn't a costly choice.
I was going to suggest this too. It's the cheapest option that does what you want it to and you can give it some cheap weapons to help defend in melee.
topaxygouroun i wrote: So I am trying for hours now to find a good HQ choice for a spearhead detachment of CSM to ally to my TS. Spearhead will be 2 units of oblits + 1 unit of havocs. Here is the problem: Either we must go chaos lord in terminator armor in order to give the Oblits re-roll 1's, or we need to pick a psyker. Sorcerer/DP would do (also DP would give reroll 1's to the obliterators).
However, I just cannot justify how much worse the CSM psykers are against the TS. A TSDP has everything that a CSMDP has, plus 1 power known, 1 power cast, +1 to invul save and access to two more disciplines of spells. For free.
A sorcerer for TS has everything that a normal sorcerer in CSM has, plus 5+ invul and +1 discipline to choose from. For free as well.
I am really battling with sub-optimal choices. How would you complete the list below?
TS battalion:
Ahriman on Disk
Termi Sorc, familiar, helm
TSDP, wings, talons, orb
5x rubrics, plasma pistol on sorc
5x rubrics, plasma pistol on sorc
5x rubrics, plasma pistol on sorc
10 x Scarabs, 2 x hellyfire, 2 x soulcannon
CSM Spearhead:
[INSERT HQ CHOICE]
3 x Oblits of Tzeentch
3 x Oblits of Tzeentch
5 x havocs, 4 x autocannons
How would you fill in the last HQ slot?
Chaos Lord in terminator armor. You need something that can deepstrike, and the vanilla sorcerers are not worth it, the vanilla DP even less so. If you just need the slot filled, take a warpsmith and save some points.
But think about this: You will have 2 characters and 20 T4 models on the table turn 1. You will be extremely vulnerable to plasmascions, alpha legion beserkers, jormungandr genestealers, CSM plasma terminators, inceptors, and ten different other kinds of alpha strike. You ought to get some chaff, or you should include a couple of rhinos for your deployed infantry. Regards
But think about this: You will have 2 characters and 20 T4 models on the table turn 1. You will be extremely vulnerable to plasmascions, alpha legion beserkers, jormungandr genestealers, CSM plasma terminators, inceptors, and ten different other kinds of alpha strike. You ought to get some chaff, or you should include a couple of rhinos for your deployed infantry. Regards
It's a targeted list. I will be facing DG + Mortarion. I do not foresee an alpha strike coming.
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc pro's:
- 39 pts cheaper
- Can carry the Seer's Bane.
- Has a minor shooting attack with his Inferno bolt pistol. (yay?)
(- If on foot, can be affected by Boon of Mutation.)
(- can buy plasma/warpflame pistol)
Daemon Prince (with 2x Talons) pro's:
- +1 Strength.
- +2 Toughness.
- +3 Wounds.
- +3 Attacks.
- +1 Ld.
- 1 better AP.
- 1 better invuln.
- Aura affects friendly Tzeentch Daemons as well.
- Access to the Discipline of Tzeentch.
Exalted Sorcerers are really in a strange position in this codex, they're not the best at anything:
They're not the best at fighting: Daemon Prince's and even Ahriman is better.
They're not the best at manifesting powers: Terminator Sorcerers and Ahriman is better.
They're not the cheapest: Sorcerers are cheaper if you're looking strictly for a cheap psyker, and Sorcerers are identical as Exalted Sorcerers when it comes to the psychic phase.
They're don't have anything unique: Daemon Prince's and Ahriman also have the aura and access to Fly.
In 7th they'd have the massive advantage of being able to hide in/behind units, but now in 8th so can our Daemon Prince's.
The only worthwhile thing about them is that they can carry Seer's Bane and be affecterd by Boons (if on foot).
The benefits you get from a Daemon Prince over an Exalted Sorcerer is so worth the 39 pts!
Ironically, once you compare the Exalted Sorcerer to the regular Sorcerer, the Exalted looks great (gains a bunch of stats and abilities for a relatively minor cost increase), and that says all about the regular sorcerer.
I can only ever see myself fielding an Exalted (on Disc) when I want to play with Seer's Bane.
Not sure if being able to cast Boon of Mutation on him is worth the drawback of being on foot. I'd rather have the Terminator Sorcerer for that, especially since he can easily reach +3 to cast (familiar, warlord trait, boon.)
Do Thousand Sons Daemon Princes have the Psyker trait? I don't think it's listed, but other Daemon Princes gain it when they take a Nurgle, Slaneesh, or Tzeentch mark? They can clearly manifest and deny spells, but do they have the Psyker trait? I think it says it to the side of their casts and denies, but it isn't listed at the bottom with keywords. I'm assuming they do, but just wanted to double check.
topaxygouroun i wrote: So I am trying for hours now to find a good HQ choice for a spearhead detachment of CSM to ally to my TS. Spearhead will be 2 units of oblits + 1 unit of havocs. Here is the problem: Either we must go chaos lord in terminator armor in order to give the Oblits re-roll 1's, or we need to pick a psyker. Sorcerer/DP would do (also DP would give reroll 1's to the obliterators).
However, I just cannot justify how much worse the CSM psykers are against the TS. A TSDP has everything that a CSMDP has, plus 1 power known, 1 power cast, +1 to invul save and access to two more disciplines of spells. For free.
A sorcerer for TS has everything that a normal sorcerer in CSM has, plus 5+ invul and +1 discipline to choose from. For free as well.
I am really battling with sub-optimal choices. How would you complete the list below?
TS battalion:
Ahriman on Disk
Termi Sorc, familiar, helm
TSDP, wings, talons, orb
5x rubrics, plasma pistol on sorc
5x rubrics, plasma pistol on sorc
5x rubrics, plasma pistol on sorc
10 x Scarabs, 2 x hellyfire, 2 x soulcannon
CSM Spearhead:
[INSERT HQ CHOICE]
3 x Oblits of Tzeentch
3 x Oblits of Tzeentch
5 x havocs, 4 x autocannons
How would you fill in the last HQ slot?
Well, this may be blasphemy sense this is a TSons tactics thread but..... If your going to be adding in base CSM's and need an HQ I would suggest looking at what we CAN'T do. And when it comes to that I would say you have options.
For example :
Deamon Prince of Slaanesh + Elixer + Talons = one seriously angry dude. Character trait protects from getting shot at. Its ability to just shred what it charges means as long as you can maneuver properly you could get this guy to crush another like enemy target.
If your trying to stick with the Tzeentch theme then I would say go as cheap as possible. Maybe an apostle? What is its job going to be? Just a 'tax'? If its going to drop with the oblits then yeah, a cheap lord is the best option.
I don't dare to betray Tzeentch in such a way. Don't think eternal spawnhood would suit me.
Eventually I switched the spearhead to a second TS one with an exalted on foot with temporal manipulation and diabolic strength babysitting a las defiler and two auto/las predators. Giving his aura, healing wounds, buffing himself and the defiler if people want to come close to the gunline. I just couldn't justify the tax cost of a CSM character :(
Makes sense. My main go to unit is defiler + exalted + changling. Exalted can summon changling easily enough to get 6+++ for defiler, and cast Flickering flames on it. Exalted does prescience. Now you have one seriously effective defiler without breaking tsons detachment. I am trying a forgefiend with it for backup, but my alternative is also laz preds.
And really, if your not taking oblits as slaanesh your not really doing it the way it should be done. I am not sure what tzeentch oblits give you but I know that there has to be more effective options.
Azuza001 wrote: Makes sense. My main go to unit is defiler + exalted + changling. Exalted can summon changling easily enough to get 6+++ for defiler, and cast Flickering flames on it. Exalted does prescience. Now you have one seriously effective defiler without breaking tsons detachment. I am trying a forgefiend with it for backup, but my alternative is also laz preds.
And really, if your not taking oblits as slaanesh your not really doing it the way it should be done. I am not sure what tzeentch oblits give you but I know that there has to be more effective options.
I think you spend too much for just buffing single Defiler.
Defiler + Changeling + Exalted is around 450pts. Now your defiler + buffers cost like Magnus
IronChefZod wrote: Do Thousand Sons Daemon Princes have the Psyker trait? I don't think it's listed, but other Daemon Princes gain it when they take a Nurgle, Slaneesh, or Tzeentch mark? They can clearly manifest and deny spells, but do they have the Psyker trait? I think it says it to the side of their casts and denies, but it isn't listed at the bottom with keywords. I'm assuming they do, but just wanted to double check.
That's a good catch actually. Checking the TS codex, the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch does NOT have the Psyker keyword. Cross referencing the Chaos Daemons codex, their DP doesn't have it either, and instead gains the keyword from a datasheet section. So... it's a copy error that I would expect to be addressed in the FAQ.
Azuza001 wrote: Makes sense. My main go to unit is defiler + exalted + changling. Exalted can summon changling easily enough to get 6+++ for defiler, and cast Flickering flames on it. Exalted does prescience. Now you have one seriously effective defiler without breaking tsons detachment. I am trying a forgefiend with it for backup, but my alternative is also laz preds.
And really, if your not taking oblits as slaanesh your not really doing it the way it should be done. I am not sure what tzeentch oblits give you but I know that there has to be more effective options.
What does Slaanesh gives to the oblits? I thought the new mark of chaos does not really mean much for the CSM aside from an extra keyword. Tzeentch oblits are <TZEENTCH> , <HERETIC ASTARTES> and <DAEMONS> so they can be buffed from practically everything in the TS list. Why Slaanesh though? Unless I got this wrong, mark does not matter when you want to give them a legion, aka Alpha legion or Iron Warriors. Or does it?
Azuza001 wrote: Makes sense. My main go to unit is defiler + exalted + changling. Exalted can summon changling easily enough to get 6+++ for defiler, and cast Flickering flames on it. Exalted does prescience. Now you have one seriously effective defiler without breaking tsons detachment. I am trying a forgefiend with it for backup, but my alternative is also laz preds.
And really, if your not taking oblits as slaanesh your not really doing it the way it should be done. I am not sure what tzeentch oblits give you but I know that there has to be more effective options.
I think you spend too much for just buffing single Defiler.
Defiler + Changeling + Exalted is around 450pts. Now your defiler + buffers cost like Magnus
True but that's why I also take a second defiler or a forgefiend. If my opponent kills the defiler I have another target to buff. And if they kill both I still have the units that's can buff other things. With magnus you lose him you lose everything you invested.
Azuza001 wrote: Makes sense. My main go to unit is defiler + exalted + changling. Exalted can summon changling easily enough to get 6+++ for defiler, and cast Flickering flames on it. Exalted does prescience. Now you have one seriously effective defiler without breaking tsons detachment. I am trying a forgefiend with it for backup, but my alternative is also laz preds.
And really, if your not taking oblits as slaanesh your not really doing it the way it should be done. I am not sure what tzeentch oblits give you but I know that there has to be more effective options.
What does Slaanesh gives to the oblits? I thought the new mark of chaos does not really mean much for the CSM aside from an extra keyword. Tzeentch oblits are <TZEENTCH> , <HERETIC ASTARTES> and <DAEMONS> so they can be buffed from practically everything in the TS list. Why Slaanesh though? Unless I got this wrong, mark does not matter when you want to give them a legion, aka Alpha legion or Iron Warriors. Or does it?
Access to Endless Cacophony - aka one of the best strats for Obliterators out there.
Azuza001 wrote: Makes sense. My main go to unit is defiler + exalted + changling. Exalted can summon changling easily enough to get 6+++ for defiler, and cast Flickering flames on it. Exalted does prescience. Now you have one seriously effective defiler without breaking tsons detachment. I am trying a forgefiend with it for backup, but my alternative is also laz preds.
And really, if your not taking oblits as slaanesh your not really doing it the way it should be done. I am not sure what tzeentch oblits give you but I know that there has to be more effective options.
I think you spend too much for just buffing single Defiler.
Defiler + Changeling + Exalted is around 450pts. Now your defiler + buffers cost like Magnus
True but that's why I also take a second defiler or a forgefiend. If my opponent kills the defiler I have another target to buff. And if they kill both I still have the units that's can buff other things. With magnus you lose him you lose everything you invested.
Support bloat can be a thing though, and Magnus can be tough to kill for his points. I think I'd rather just park two Las Preds in the back and call it a day, but I haven't thrown down against a defiler in a long time so I could be very wrong here.
As for the Forgefiend, I played with them a few times with my CSM, I found that with a prescience slap on the butt they do pretty good against elite infantry/small vehicles. I do think they need to be run in pairs, and 2 fiends+babysitter sorc will run you close to/over 500 points depending on loadout. They do have good stratagems if you have CPs to burn. Not my favorite daemon engine anymore, but I think they do get a bad rap.Plus they look great all painted up.
Forgefiends definitely get a way worse rep then they deserve. It's not that they are amazing on their own but as you say with a buff or two even they can shoot up there. Plus we have the cool deamon engine strat.
Azuza001 wrote: Makes sense. My main go to unit is defiler + exalted + changling. Exalted can summon changling easily enough to get 6+++ for defiler, and cast Flickering flames on it. Exalted does prescience. Now you have one seriously effective defiler without breaking tsons detachment. I am trying a forgefiend with it for backup, but my alternative is also laz preds.
And really, if your not taking oblits as slaanesh your not really doing it the way it should be done. I am not sure what tzeentch oblits give you but I know that there has to be more effective options.
I think you spend too much for just buffing single Defiler.
Defiler + Changeling + Exalted is around 450pts. Now your defiler + buffers cost like Magnus
True but that's why I also take a second defiler or a forgefiend. If my opponent kills the defiler I have another target to buff. And if they kill both I still have the units that's can buff other things. With magnus you lose him you lose everything you invested.
Support bloat can be a thing though, and Magnus can be tough to kill for his points. I think I'd rather just park two Las Preds in the back and call it a day, but I haven't thrown down against a defiler in a long time so I could be very wrong here.
As for the Forgefiend, I played with them a few times with my CSM, I found that with a prescience slap on the butt they do pretty good against elite infantry/small vehicles. I do think they need to be run in pairs, and 2 fiends+babysitter sorc will run you close to/over 500 points depending on loadout. They do have good stratagems if you have CPs to burn. Not my favorite daemon engine anymore, but I think they do get a bad rap.Plus they look great all painted up.
Yeah, I started down this rabbit hole working on making my forgefiend better, prescience + Flickering flames. But then I took a defiler in a game for giggles and it crushed it. Killed a pred one turn with prescience and flames thanks to laz cannons and battle cannon. (2 shots, 2 hits, wound on 2's, 6+ save, that was 7 wounds there from the laz cannons)
Both my opponent and I just stared after figuring that out in game and he said some choice words about how crazy that is. He could not kill the defiler after that, all his anti tank bounced off thanks to Temporal distortion, glamor of tzeench, and weaver of fate. In all honesty I think I scared him into dedicating too much fire power into it, but it worked so well the rest of my army was given free reign to do whatever I felt like.
Throw the reroll stratagem onto the forgefiend at the same time so it was having its own special kind of fun, and I crushed his ultramarines. Have to wait and see if the trick works again tomorrow.
topaxygouroun i wrote: I have a 2000 game tomorrow against Mortarion and his DG. I will not be bringing Magnus on account of him being unpainted.
Since Mortarion looks like a bundle of trouble, I figure that going pure TS will probably not cut it. So I will ally. Either Daemons or CSM.
The main TS force will probably be a battalion with Ahriman/DP/termi sorc, 3 units of MSU rubrics in troop for objective holding and a 10x Scarab to deepstrike and get the buff treatment. Maybe a Defiler centerpiece.
The rest of the models I have for TS (Predators/Vindi/LR/rhinos) are not very appealing to me. Hence the support:
I do have a solid heavy support array of models from CSM (6 obliterators, autocannon havocs, 5-6 plasma gun chosen/havocs) that I could use. In such a case, how would you field them? Iron Warriors for ignore cover and Alpha legion for extra survivability strike me as the best bets. But then what would the accompanying HQ look like?
Other option is Tzeentch daemons. I have 15-20 pinks, 20 brimstones, 20ish blues, 2 burning chariots with detachable exalted flamers, foot herald, disc herald, blue scribes, DP.
Which option would you go for?
Pure TS would probably do great against mortarion. Bring a souped-up termie sorc with the +1 cast WL trait and have him cast your Death Hex the turn you want to take morty out. Then just have something VOTLW at him (Oblits would be best, but I would probably use 10 man SOT squad since I generally run pure Tsons), follow up with a few lascannons and he should be toast.
Just wait for a turn where he doesn't have the -1 to hit buff on him (with how universal our denies are and him having no psychic bonus that should not be hard) and drop the hammer on him.
YOU MONUMENTAL HOBNOB! I did it and it worked PERFECTLY! BAM! Mortarion turn 1 dead before he got to play! Deepstriked 10 rubrics, 10 scarabs and termi sorcerer warlord. Got cabalistic focus, +4 to cast on death hex! There goes his invul save. Got prescience on the scarabs and VotlW on both the rubrics and the scarabs! Scarabs did 9 wounds on him, rubrics did 4, flickering flame defiler did an extra 5! Only one lascannon got through, but with Gaze of fate reroll it did 6 wounds which disgustingly resilient had to save individually! Last wound taken by a predator autocannon (also amazing how having flat 3 damage changes the game with the preds!). And I still had enough dakka left to bring the blight drone down to 3 wounds. I should have gone for the plagueburst crawler instead. Thing is disgusting.
On his turn he went all or nothing, overcharged all his plasma guns, did not burn a single guy and did kill 6 terminators through glamour of tzeentch and weaver of fate. But after my second turn he wasn't left with much else.
Oh I did peril with the DP on Gaze of fate (guess why I needed the reroll for), with Ahriman on prescience and with the exalted sorcerer on temporal manipulation that was supposed to heal Ahriman. All in turn one.
I have to say that the scarab drop when super buffed deals stupid amounts of damage. Prescience, sorcerer aura, Votlw and nobody is safe. I will try them some more.
luke1705 wrote: How have people found the tzaangors? I have a ton of skyfires and was shocked at how cheap they are per model in 40k
They are so cheap because they are no where near as powerful as they are in aos..they get auto wounds and lots of hits but people get to use their save rolls, and their str isnt that high they are also squishy and easily shot off the table that said they are still decent for putting hurt on infantry units and harassing
With the right buffs Skyfires can do work. They are cheap for what you get but do need protecting and dont expect them to be downing a primarch anytime soon.
A max squad at 153pts is lovely though.
I'm planning to run 2 units and a tzaangor shaman. Should get some work done.
luke1705 wrote: How have people found the tzaangors? I have a ton of skyfires and was shocked at how cheap they are per model in 40k
My list has unit of 9 supported by Ahriman on Disc and a Shaman. Once you get +2 to hit on them they're pretty solid, volume will bring things down. I think the biggest lesson I've learned is to not underestimate their impact in close combat - if you've got the buff ball rolling on them (prescience, shaman, maybe flickering fire or VoTLW) they generate 28 S4 attacks in close combat that hit on 2s, re-rolling 1s, and possibly +1 to wound. My first few games I strictly used them to shoot and they did well but once I got a little more aggressive with them I felt like they really started to shine in my army.
So, one thousand sons army archetype I have not tried as yet is summoned daemons, rather than allied daemons brought in. At this point, my little tzeentch daemon allied detachment has ballooned to Changeling, Fateskimmer/Changecaster magnetized, Exalted Flamer, 6x Flamers, 3x Screamers, 15x pinks 10x blues 10x brims, and I'm considering whether I would be better suited doing what I currently do now (bringing them as an allied battalion) or by bringing a smaller block of reinforcement points so that I can summon what I want.
I find that in most of my games, a couple of my daemon elements are real standouts, while the rest mostly just sit around while my workhorse units of rubrics and psykers carry the game. Sometimes the horror screen is really handy, but then it dies and the buff characters sit around awkwardly casting Gaze of Fate and trying to smack characters. Sometimes the deep strike flamers are super clutch, but my opponent is playing a gunline and the horror screen just kind of sits around doing nothing.
So, summoning pluses:
+I could spend a block of, say, 250 points, and summon anything I had in my collection to the board as support. if I need fast assault? Summon screamers or a fateskimmer. If I need a buff? Summon changeling. If I need a screen? Summon pinks. This would save me from the situation I have now of spending 600 points and having only about half of it doing anything terribly useful.
+I generally bring a bunch of characters anyway and at least one is usually babysitting a gunline, so its not like having a character trying to summon is particularly painful. Unless Im reading the rule wrong, I can also deep strike and summon, increasing flexibility.
+Makes my army even more elite for the +1 to go first roll, which psychic focused armies really really want.
The drawbacks
-not on the board immediately. This is the biggie. If I lose first turn, I have 250-300 points sitting around NOT buffing my daemon units defenses, or screening my shooters.
-limited threat projection compared to deep striking the daemons. 12" from a character who didn't move and 9" from enemies is pretty restrictive.
-Semi-random. I say semi because the only way it could actually fail is if i roll a straight 3 on the 3d6, as I have perfectly useful PL4 units in 3 flamers. But still it could limit my choices. Also, can hurt my characters, that's not great.
-doesnt give me CPs. Less of a big deal than it would be as my demon battalion eally only gives me 2cp, since I always spend 1 on deep strike at the beginning of the game mostly.
-No daemon detachment = no daemon stratagems. this one is pretty rough, since the "can I just have a little of the warp" "you can't it's far too perilous" stratagem and the locus of conjuration are both amazing for thousand sons.
+I could spend a block of, say, 250 points, and summon anything I had in my collection to the board as support. if I need fast assault? Summon screamers or a fateskimmer. If I need a buff? Summon changeling. If I need a screen? Summon pinks. This would save me from the situation I have now of spending 600 points and having only about half of it doing anything terribly useful.
+I generally bring a bunch of characters anyway and at least one is usually babysitting a gunline, so its not like having a character trying to summon is particularly painful. Unless Im reading the rule wrong, I can also deep strike and summon, increasing flexibility.
A character can indeed deepstrike and then summon, but not in the same turn. Regards
+I could spend a block of, say, 250 points, and summon anything I had in my collection to the board as support. if I need fast assault? Summon screamers or a fateskimmer. If I need a buff? Summon changeling. If I need a screen? Summon pinks. This would save me from the situation I have now of spending 600 points and having only about half of it doing anything terribly useful.
+I generally bring a bunch of characters anyway and at least one is usually babysitting a gunline, so its not like having a character trying to summon is particularly painful. Unless Im reading the rule wrong, I can also deep strike and summon, increasing flexibility.
A character can indeed deepstrike and then summon, but not in the same turn. Regards
OK, I see where that has been FAQed now.
So, here's a possible look at a summoning list:
Battalion Detachment Thousand Sons
Ahriman on Disc
Exalt on Disc w/plasma pistol
Terminator Sorc w/familiar, staff and inferno combi
190 gives me two good summons, at 100 points (Changeling, 10x Pinks 10x Brims, 3x Screamers, Fluxmaster) and at 90 points (3x Flamers, Exalted Flamer, 10x pinks with Banner and Instrument, Changecaster with Staff). I might want a couple more characters, but either Ahriman or the Exalt is going to always be OK with hanging back and summoning, because I'm goign to want both of them trying their hardest to stay in reroll 1s to hit range of as much of my army as I can manage.A possible turn 1 against a shooting-based enemy might be Ahriman jumping up to aura the Tzaangors as they drop in and warptime, Exalt hanging back with the Defiler and Butchernaut plus any rubrics who can hop out to shoot at 24" and summoning on either changeling to puppyguard the Defiler and cast Flickering Flames or an Exalted Flamer to add to my anti tank shooting if I'm confident the Tzaangors can dogpile into most of their downrange shooting.
Biggest downside of the list is the tight 6CP, which in a lot of games I'll easily burn 2/3 of turn 1 to drop the tzaangors, Cycle and Votlw. I'm much less CP-tight in the vs melee matchup because the tzaangors are probably just acting as a screen and dying when alpha zerkers/genestealers/death company/whatever charge and beat their faces in turn 1, then I can fool around with stuff like making the Defiler go nuts and more turns of VOTLW with the rubrics.
Did a game today, deffy is definitely a monster when boosted by spelled. I made some bad rookie mistakes but it still killed a contemptor (should have been in one round of shooting but I thought it wounded on 3's with battle cannon when it was actually 2's, so my bad ) and killed a flyer (granted it was already wounded by then) with out taking any wounds. And the forgefiend was awesome as backup for him, at one point down to 2 wounds ended game with 7.
How do we deal with sniper scouts in cover? I know they don't do much damage but 15 of them can kill a changecaster or sorcerer pretty easily. Just use rubrics to fire back?
Azuza001 wrote: Did a game today, deffy is definitely a monster when boosted by spelled. I made some bad rookie mistakes but it still killed a contemptor (should have been in one round of shooting but I thought it wounded on 3's with battle cannon when it was actually 2's, so my bad ) and killed a flyer (granted it was already wounded by then) with out taking any wounds. And the forgefiend was awesome as backup for him, at one point down to 2 wounds ended game with 7.
How do we deal with sniper scouts in cover? I know they don't do much damage but 15 of them can kill a changecaster or sorcerer pretty easily. Just use rubrics to fire back?
Just shoot them? I mean a squad of ten should deal about 2 unsaved wounds per turn to a basic sorceror, counting the mortals. And with the cloaks and rifles they aint cheap. Our basic dakka gets them down from their fancy 2+ cover save down to 4+, so we can kill them fairly easily.
I just wasn't sure if straight up shoot them with rubrics was the answer or if there was something I was overlooking as a better answer to them. I had a feeling 5 rubrics would probably be the answer.
1) scotsman, I am not a big fan of the summoning strategy. For one thing I think that a non-move from your summoner is a considerable restriction. You generally want your characters to be within 6" of something for the reroll-buff, so requiring them not to move could be a nuisance in some situations. Secondly, I think the setup is less flexible than it looks. Would there ever be a situation, where you would want the herald or changeling without Daemon troops? Or flamers without a herald? Why don't you just take a cheap herald, some pinkies and some reserve points in a patrol detachment. Then you can summon more horrors, the changeling, or simply use the points for splitting on the pinkies?
2) Scouts can be a real nuisance if they are deployed forward and kept cheap. They will push deepstriking scarabs out of rapid-fire range from his important stuff, they will act as a roadblock for deepstriking Tzaangors, and they can tie up a defiler for two turns or a las-predator until game-end. If your opponent equips his scouts with sniper-rifles and tries to keep them out of harm's way, then he is essentially throwing away a lot of points. You can shoot them of course, but simply ignoring them is equally effective. Their shooting is pretty anemic. I don't think I have ever seen a game where snipers made their points back.
I've gotta admit I've been swayed on the defiler idea here (at least for tsons). I plan to start running two of them.
Has anyone else been using gors as basic troop units, or do most stick to cultists? I'm currently running a mix but think I might prefer going full gor, as toughness 4, extra LD, and the 5+ invulnerable save all seem to make them tougher than cultists even for basic troop duty. A bit more expensive as well though.
I am not sure about 30 tzaangors blob bomb...
In my list i put 20 rubrics in DS to save them from alpha strike. If i want to put 30 tzaangors it will cost me another 2CP.
Tzaangors will arrive 9' away and need either 8' charge or warptime - sorcerrer within 9'.
For 2CP Space Marines and Eldar army can shoot and potentially kill ~10 tzaangors. Then charge - overwatch another ~5 died. So average we loose 10-15 tzaangors even before we charged.
Also very often important units are wrapped by meatshield.
So i personally think that those tzaangors bomb might work something but not enough times to be competitive.
I don't use mine first turn most of the time, I use an AL cultist bomb to clear screens then bring in the Tzaangor bomb along with a Terminator Sorcerer with Familiar and WL to cast Warptime on a 4+. I also usually come in at 12.1" away, doesn't protect me from Eldar shooting but keeps me safe from the marine variants and with WT I'm at 6.1", I'm pretty confident on that charge needing a 5 on 2D6. If you're counting on the Tzaangor bomb to go first and solve your woes you're probably in a rough spot. I use mine to come in exploit a gap. I also don't run pure TSons either, I run a full blown Alpha Legion, Nurgle Demon, Thousand Sons soup list.
Farseer_V2 wrote: I don't use mine first turn most of the time, I use an AL cultist bomb to clear screens then bring in the Tzaangor bomb along with a Terminator Sorcerer with Familiar and WL to cast Warptime on a 4+. I also usually come in at 12.1" away, doesn't protect me from Eldar shooting but keeps me safe from the marine variants and with WT I'm at 6.1", I'm pretty confident on that charge needing a 5 on 2D6. If you're counting on the Tzaangor bomb to go first and solve your woes you're probably in a rough spot. I use mine to come in exploit a gap. I also don't run pure TSons either, I run a full blown Alpha Legion, Nurgle Demon, Thousand Sons soup list.
I don't get that. Do you deepstrike the cultists, or do you use the forward operatives stratagem? Why not just deepstrike the Tzaangors in the same turn as the cultists? And why do you deepstrike at 12.1" ? Is it to avoid the auspex scan?
I use tide of traitors actually, deploy them effectively in my back corner way behind all my screens then pop tide in my first movement phase so I can be in rapid fire then stack the various buffs that make that bomb work. The reason I don't deepstrike the Tzaangors in on the same turn is because I want to clear the screen which the cultists perform admirably at - if they went down at the same time they'd get blocked by the screen regardless of psychic powers.
As to why the 12.1" yeah its avoid auspex (assuming I'm playing an army with access to it, if not then I just pop in at 9" at normal).
Farseer_V2 wrote: As to why the 12.1" yeah its avoid auspex (assuming I'm playing an army with access to it, if not then I just pop in at 9" at normal).
Just a fair warning, if you fail warptime you won't be able to even attempt a charge if your over 12" away. This is because you have to be within 12" to even declare the charge. Doesn't matter if you can charge 24" with a roll of a double 1 or not. Yes this also means bloodletters with 3d6 need to be within 12" and can't try a long bomb 18" on you.
pismakron wrote: 1) scotsman, I am not a big fan of the summoning strategy. For one thing I think that a non-move from your summoner is a considerable restriction. You generally want your characters to be within 6" of something for the reroll-buff, so requiring them not to move could be a nuisance in some situations. Secondly, I think the setup is less flexible than it looks. Would there ever be a situation, where you would want the herald or changeling without Daemon troops? Or flamers without a herald? Why don't you just take a cheap herald, some pinkies and some reserve points in a patrol detachment. Then you can summon more horrors, the changeling, or simply use the points for splitting on the pinkies?
2) Scouts can be a real nuisance if they are deployed forward and kept cheap. They will push deepstriking scarabs out of rapid-fire range from his important stuff, they will act as a roadblock for deepstriking Tzaangors, and they can tie up a defiler for two turns or a las-predator until game-end. If your opponent equips his scouts with sniper-rifles and tries to keep them out of harm's way, then he is essentially throwing away a lot of points. You can shoot them of course, but simply ignoring them is equally effective. Their shooting is pretty anemic. I don't think I have ever seen a game where snipers made their points back.
That would be true except my army runs off of a changecaster with Flickering flames and gaze of fate. Without it the defiler isn't as effective. And I have lost the changecaster to a 5 man sniper team before, it's only protection is with the charecter rules.
Maybe I will remove it and just use a deamon prince as my caster. Then I don't give a crap about the snipers.
ArtyomTrityak wrote:I'm trying to make as much TS pure list as possible. Chaos soup is cool but here is i think we're talking about TS, right?
For sure, I was mostly just trying to offer some perspective in how my units have functioned. Certainly the context is going to change but some elements are consistent.
Azoqu wrote:
Farseer_V2 wrote: As to why the 12.1" yeah its avoid auspex (assuming I'm playing an army with access to it, if not then I just pop in at 9" at normal).
Just a fair warning, if you fail warptime you won't be able to even attempt a charge if your over 12" away. This is because you have to be within 12" to even declare the charge. Doesn't matter if you can charge 24" with a roll of a double 1 or not. Yes this also means bloodletters with 3d6 need to be within 12" and can't try a long bomb 18" on you.
For sure - that's why I stack the warlord trait and the familiar in their sorcerer and make sure I have that 1 CP left for the re-roll. You can never guarantee it but I do my best to remove almost all chance.
For sure, I was mostly just trying to offer some perspective in how my units have functioned. Certainly the context is going to change but some elements are consistent.
i personally think that TS + Alpha legion has synergy. TS have good anti-infantry: rubrics and tzaangors, alpha legion can give -1 to hit predators and obliterators.
the_scotsman wrote: So, one thousand sons army archetype I have not tried as yet is summoned daemons, rather than allied daemons brought in. At this point, my little tzeentch daemon allied detachment has ballooned to Changeling, Fateskimmer/Changecaster magnetized, Exalted Flamer, 6x Flamers, 3x Screamers, 15x pinks 10x blues 10x brims, and I'm considering whether I would be better suited doing what I currently do now (bringing them as an allied battalion) or by bringing a smaller block of reinforcement points so that I can summon what I want.
I find that in most of my games, a couple of my daemon elements are real standouts, while the rest mostly just sit around while my workhorse units of rubrics and psykers carry the game. Sometimes the horror screen is really handy, but then it dies and the buff characters sit around awkwardly casting Gaze of Fate and trying to smack characters. Sometimes the deep strike flamers are super clutch, but my opponent is playing a gun line and the horror screen just kind of sits around doing nothing.
+I could spend a block of, say, 250 points, and summon anything I had in my collection to the board as support. if I need fast assault? Summon screamers or a fateskimmer. If I need a buff? Summon changeling. If I need a screen? Summon pinks. This would save me from the situation I have now of spending 600 points and having only about half of it doing anything terribly useful. .
This is a route I eventually want to try. Great list of pros and cons, well thought out. Summon what you need and more of them rather than having it all on the board just in case. That many points in reserve is ballsy man and I salute you, that will take some aggressive casting and there might be some value doing so on a fast disc so you summon where you need it. Using the summoning strat can allow you to maximize you reserve points every round and also have some "Spawn Credit" ready just in case... This is kinda how I wanted to test it but I do not have the demon models yet. I want to anchor with Changeling and load up on screamers, I just love the models, as well as flamers and an exalted. The horrors will come eventually (haha poetic) though i can see your strategic reasoning and you have weighed out the disadvantages so... you will need to summon you ass off but go for it!! Why not? And please let us know as I think it can be effective, deceiving and a lot of fun!!
ArtyomTrityak wrote: I am not sure about 30 tzaangors blob bomb...
In my list i put 20 rubrics in DS to save them from alpha strike. If i want to put 30 tzaangors it will cost me another 2CP.
Tzaangors will arrive 9' away and need either 8' charge or warptime - sorcerrer within 9'.
For 2CP Space Marines and Eldar army can shoot and potentially kill ~10 tzaangors. Then charge - overwatch another ~5 died. So average we loose 10-15 tzaangors even before we charged.
Also very often important units are wrapped by meatshield.
So i personally think that those tzaangors bomb might work something but not enough times to be competitive.
Vs. the right opponent, a well executed Tzaangor-bomb can pretty much win you the game on the turn they arrive;
2x61 attacks (Cycle of Slaughter), hitting on 2+ (Shaman), rerolling 1's (DP/Exalted nearby, you want Warptime anyway), either with S4/AP2 or S5/AP1 (Mutalith) and with +1 to wound (VotLW).
There's nothing they can't kill. They'd do 29,6 wounds to a Baneblade after saves!
As you pointed out however, there are ways for armies to protect themselves from this. And lucky too I'd say, otherwise there would be no end to the moaning about Thousand Sons Tzaangors.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: I am not sure about 30 tzaangors blob bomb...
In my list i put 20 rubrics in DS to save them from alpha strike. If i want to put 30 tzaangors it will cost me another 2CP.
Tzaangors will arrive 9' away and need either 8' charge or warptime - sorcerrer within 9'.
For 2CP Space Marines and Eldar army can shoot and potentially kill ~10 tzaangors. Then charge - overwatch another ~5 died. So average we loose 10-15 tzaangors even before we charged.
Also very often important units are wrapped by meatshield.
So i personally think that those tzaangors bomb might work something but not enough times to be competitive.
Vs. the right opponent, a well executed Tzaangor-bomb can pretty much win you the game on the turn they arrive;
2x61 attacks (Cycle of Slaughter), hitting on 2+ (Shaman), rerolling 1's (DP/Exalted nearby, you want Warptime anyway), either with S4/AP2 or S5/AP1 (Mutalith) and with +1 to wound (VotLW).
There's nothing they can't kill. They'd do 29,6 wounds to a Baneblade after saves!
As you pointed out however, there are ways for armies to protect themselves from this. And lucky too I'd say, otherwise there would be no end to the moaning about Thousand Sons Tzaangors.
So for Tzaangor bomb you need:
1. +2CP deepstrike
2. +2CP Cycle of Slaughter
3. +1CP VotLW 4. Shaman nearby
5. DP nearby
So sacrificing 5CP and exposing DP + Shaman for 30 man tzaangor bomb which can be destroyed by 2CP shooting on deepstrike, failed warptime or charge.
It looks like putting all eggs into single basket. And this basket does not seem be too nasty.
Let's imagine you do all thing and kill.. something, for example wave serpent. Next turn this blob of tzaangors is dead.
So you kill something which your opponent exposed and not protect by meatshield, spend 5CP, exposed shaman and DP.
For example blob of 20 necron warriors will around 20 tzaangors, 20 eldar guardinans wreck them too, 3 agressors will just delete them...
I am not sure. I would be happy to hear your feedback after couple of games.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: So sacrificing 5CP and exposing DP + Shaman for 30 man tzaangor bomb which can be destroyed by 2CP shooting on deepstrike, failed warptime or charge.
It looks like putting all eggs into single basket. And this basket does not seem be too nasty.
4 CP, not 5. Deepstrike is 1, not 2.
Wouldn't exactly call it "sacrifice" either since you're spending them on something useful.
Not all armies have anti-deepstrike, hence why I said against the right opponent.
Warptime might fail, and so might the charge, but the chance of failing both warptime and the charge are quite small.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: Let's imagine you do all thing and kill.. something, for example wave serpent. Next turn this blob of tzaangors is dead.
So you kill something which your opponent exposed and not protect by meatshield, spend 5CP, exposed shaman and DP.
I said a "well executed" tzaangor bomb. If you only killed a wave serpent you failed in your execution, hard.
There's also no reason why the Shaman/DP need to be exposed, where's the rest of your army?
ArtyomTrityak wrote: For example blob of 20 necron warriors will around 20 tzaangors, 20 eldar guardinans wreck them too, 3 agressors will just delete them...
20 necron warriors/guardians kill on average 2 Tzaangors when overwatching. Hardly what I'd call "wreck them".
A full squad of Aggressors would indeed hurt alot more, but now you're cherrypicking. Pick your target carefully, don't just charge that 10 man flamer-squad "because you can".
ArtyomTrityak wrote: I am not sure about 30 tzaangors blob bomb...
In my list i put 20 rubrics in DS to save them from alpha strike. If i want to put 30 tzaangors it will cost me another 2CP.
Tzaangors will arrive 9' away and need either 8' charge or warptime - sorcerrer within 9'.
For 2CP Space Marines and Eldar army can shoot and potentially kill ~10 tzaangors. Then charge - overwatch another ~5 died. So average we loose 10-15 tzaangors even before we charged.
Also very often important units are wrapped by meatshield.
So i personally think that those tzaangors bomb might work something but not enough times to be competitive.
Vs. the right opponent, a well executed Tzaangor-bomb can pretty much win you the game on the turn they arrive;
2x61 attacks (Cycle of Slaughter), hitting on 2+ (Shaman), rerolling 1's (DP/Exalted nearby, you want Warptime anyway), either with S4/AP2 or S5/AP1 (Mutalith) and with +1 to wound (VotLW).
There's nothing they can't kill. They'd do 29,6 wounds to a Baneblade after saves!
As you pointed out however, there are ways for armies to protect themselves from this. And lucky too I'd say, otherwise there would be no end to the moaning about Thousand Sons Tzaangors.
So for Tzaangor bomb you need:
1. +2CP deepstrike
2. +2CP Cycle of Slaughter
3. +1CP VotLW 4. Shaman nearby
5. DP nearby
So sacrificing 5CP and exposing DP + Shaman for 30 man tzaangor bomb which can be destroyed by 2CP shooting on deepstrike, failed warptime or charge.
It looks like putting all eggs into single basket. And this basket does not seem be too nasty.
Let's imagine you do all thing and kill.. something, for example wave serpent. Next turn this blob of tzaangors is dead.
So you kill something which your opponent exposed and not protect by meatshield, spend 5CP, exposed shaman and DP.
For example blob of 20 necron warriors will around 20 tzaangors, 20 eldar guardinans wreck them too, 3 agressors will just delete them...
I am not sure. I would be happy to hear your feedback after couple of games.
For the tzaangor bomb to work you need:
1) 30 tzaangors + bray horn
2) 1 CP for deepstrike
3) Sorcerer in terminator armour + familiar
You don't need anything else. And if you hold back gaze of fate and the CP-reroll, then warptime will almost certainly go off.
You can buff the tzaangor-bomb in many other ways, but those are all a bit situational, because they depend on the 12+D6 " movement of our fast characters. The tzaangor bomb is definitely a candidate for VOTLW, but so is whatever rubric or scarab blob you will probably shoot with in the same turn.
I really think we could benefit by getting our characters from a TS battalion with cultists as cheap tax, and getting our sons from a CSM battalion. This way we could keep the sons as MSU of 5 with a soulfire cannon each and go deepstrike them onto objectives. This would cost 120 pts per unit, 126 with a plasma pistol, so not exactly cheap, but it would be all but invincible for its points. With cover save and All is dust, good luck removing them unless you decide to spend stupid amounts of points on them. And even if you leave them alone, with the soulfire cannon and Tzeentch's firestorm/doombolt/infernal gateway on each aspiring would guarantee a ton of trouble. I really think this is how they are supposed to be played really.
TS Battalion
Ahriman on disc
DP, wings, talons
Termi Sorc
3 units of 10 cultists
CSM battalion (alpha legion?)
Warpsmith/ DP Sorcerer/chaos lord
5 x rubrics, soulfire cannon, plasma pistol
5 x rubrics, soulfire cannon, plasma pistol
5 x rubrics, soulfire cannon, plasma pistol
Couple of predators
This way we get all the nice better sorcerers and DP's from TS codex, we get the MSU soulfire cannons on the rubrics. Alpha legion the rubrics onto objectives in cover and let the opponent come and claim them if they feel lucky. give all the buffs on the characters and all the non-smite MW spells on the aspiring sorcerers. Doesn't matter if it's on a 7 or a 9, it's a free cast. You were not going to cast smite with your Aspiring anyways, were you?
If you use predators, then warpsmith/lord is a nice combo to keep them healthy and firing. Otherwise opt for only one HQ tax on the rubrics and get a nice alpha strike unit like 10-man scarabs for you to buff and enjoy.
Test concept @ 2000 pts:
TS battalion:
Ahriman on disc [Weaver of fates, Prescience, Glamour of tzeentch]
RP, Wings, claws, dark matter crystal [Flickering flames, gaze of fate]
Termi sorc, familiar, Helm of the third eye, warlord, High Magister [Death hex, warptime]
3 x 10 cultists
10 x Scarab Occult, 2 x hellyfire, 2 x soulfire cannons
CSM battalion - Alpha legion
Chaos lord, double plasma pistol
Warpsmith
5 x rubrics, soulfire cannon, plasma pistol [Tzeentch's firestorm]
5 x rubrics, soulfire cannon, plasma pistol [Doombolt]
5 x rubrics, soulfire cannon, plasma pistol [Insert other MW ability]
This would go pretty much close to 2000. 7 CP. Lord and warpsmith go with the tanks for reroll aura and healing them. Bubble wrap the tanks with the cultists. Alpha legion + TS stratagem the rubrics (if they share the faction keyword which I think they do) onto midfield and forward objectives.
First turn deepstrike the terminators, mega buff them (prescience, weaver of fates, glamour). Use cabalistic focus on either death hex or warptime for a +4 bonus (use your gaze reroll if you need to) and the unit can delete the target you want off the table and proceed to charge and lock a big badass enemy shooter. Next turn use the dark matter crystal to redeploy them and repeat.
Alternatively we could change the lord + warpsmith + tanks into a second DP and oblits.
I really think we could benefit by getting our characters from a TS battalion with cultists as cheap tax, and getting our sons from a CSM battalion. This way we could keep the sons as MSU of 5 with a soulfire cannon each and go deepstrike them onto objectives. This would cost 120 pts per unit, 126 with a plasma pistol, so not exactly cheap, but it would be all but invincible for its points. With cover save and All is dust, good luck removing them unless you decide to spend stupid amounts of points on them. And even if you leave them alone, with the soulfire cannon and Tzeentch's firestorm/doombolt/infernal gateway on each aspiring would guarantee a ton of trouble. I really think this is how they are supposed to be played really.
To my knowledge (and happy to be proven wrong), they can only be elites.
Also...
If you take Rubrics from the CSM book, do they still get access to the TS spells or only 1W Smite?
In the same way that the TSDP differs to the CSM (&DG) one(s), are the CSM ones stuck in pre TS codex...
I really think we could benefit by getting our characters from a TS battalion with cultists as cheap tax, and getting our sons from a CSM battalion. This way we could keep the sons as MSU of 5 with a soulfire cannon each and go deepstrike them onto objectives. This would cost 120 pts per unit, 126 with a plasma pistol, so not exactly cheap, but it would be all but invincible for its points. With cover save and All is dust, good luck removing them unless you decide to spend stupid amounts of points on them. And even if you leave them alone, with the soulfire cannon and Tzeentch's firestorm/doombolt/infernal gateway on each aspiring would guarantee a ton of trouble. I really think this is how they are supposed to be played really.
To my knowledge (and happy to be proven wrong), they can only be elites.
Also...
If you take Rubrics from the CSM book, do they still get access to the TS spells or only 1W Smite?
In the same way that the TSDP differs to the CSM (&DG) one(s), are the CSM ones stuck in pre TS codex...
So sad :( I really want that cannon in 5 models. Maybe we'll get it in the faq. Let's see.
I really think we could benefit by getting our characters from a TS battalion with cultists as cheap tax, and getting our sons from a CSM battalion. This way we could keep the sons as MSU of 5 with a soulfire cannon each and go deepstrike them onto objectives. This would cost 120 pts per unit, 126 with a plasma pistol, so not exactly cheap, but it would be all but invincible for its points. With cover save and All is dust, good luck removing them unless you decide to spend stupid amounts of points on them. And even if you leave them alone, with the soulfire cannon and Tzeentch's firestorm/doombolt/infernal gateway on each aspiring would guarantee a ton of trouble. I really think this is how they are supposed to be played really.
To my knowledge (and happy to be proven wrong), they can only be elites.
Also...
If you take Rubrics from the CSM book, do they still get access to the TS spells or only 1W Smite?
In the same way that the TSDP differs to the CSM (&DG) one(s), are the CSM ones stuck in pre TS codex...
So sad :( I really want that cannon in 5 models. Maybe we'll get it in the faq. Let's see.
The down side is you lose their ability to cast anything but smite. The good is you get 5 men with the soulreaper cannon. It may be worth it. Take a warpsmith and 3 rubric squads from chaos, the rest from tsons, watch the world burn.
Also you lose the thousand sons keyword on the rubrics. I am pretty sure there was a faq that said you can't just use the legion keywords "Thousand sons" and be ok for using spells and stratagems on them from the real tsons codex. I don't know how much of a trade off this is but it is what it is.
Edit - Nevermind, the warpsmith can't repair vehicles not from his legion, so you can't repair any thousand son vehicles. I would rather be able to cast spells on them than repair with the smith.
I really think we could benefit by getting our characters from a TS battalion with cultists as cheap tax, and getting our sons from a CSM battalion. This way we could keep the sons as MSU of 5 with a soulfire cannon each and go deepstrike them onto objectives. This would cost 120 pts per unit, 126 with a plasma pistol, so not exactly cheap, but it would be all but invincible for its points. With cover save and All is dust, good luck removing them unless you decide to spend stupid amounts of points on them. And even if you leave them alone, with the soulfire cannon and Tzeentch's firestorm/doombolt/infernal gateway on each aspiring would guarantee a ton of trouble. I really think this is how they are supposed to be played really.
To my knowledge (and happy to be proven wrong), they can only be elites.
Also...
If you take Rubrics from the CSM book, do they still get access to the TS spells or only 1W Smite?
In the same way that the TSDP differs to the CSM (&DG) one(s), are the CSM ones stuck in pre TS codex...
So sad :( I really want that cannon in 5 models. Maybe we'll get it in the faq. Let's see.
The down side is you lose their ability to cast anything but smite. The good is you get 5 men with the soulreaper cannon. It may be worth it. Take a warpsmith and 3 rubric squads from chaos, the rest from tsons, watch the world burn.
Also you lose the thousand sons keyword on the rubrics. I am pretty sure there was a faq that said you can't just use the legion keywords "Thousand sons" and be ok for using spells and stratagems on them from the real tsons codex. I don't know how much of a trade off this is but it is what it is.
Edit - Nevermind, the warpsmith can't repair vehicles not from his legion, so you can't repair any thousand son vehicles. I would rather be able to cast spells on them than repair with the smith.
But you can take a cheap lord instead to give reroll aura to the tanks? Could be a thing I guess.
I want to discuss topic Occults vs Rubrics. If opponent has some multi-damage weapons Rubrics are better. For single damage weapons - Occults - same firepower, no need to spend CP for deepstrike, better save.
- Powerswords so they can actually kill stuff in melee.
- Can deepstrike on their own.
- Sorcerer has a chance of surviving a PotW.
- 2+/5++ save instead of 3+/5++.
- Smaller footprint, so easier to give them cover/hide them.
- +1 Ld.
(- Can buy Helfyre Missile Racks, giving the army some much needed AT.)
20 Rubrics with 2 Soulreapers - 433 pts
Pro's:
- Troops
- Less susceptible to multi-wound attacks.
- +2/+3 inferno bolter shots at long/rapid fire range (18 vs 16 / 35 vs 32)
- +1 M.
(- Can buy some overpriced Warpflamers.)
SOT's are imo better most of the time.
That said, I would never field both 1x10 SOT's and 1x20 Rubrics in the same list, as they both desperately want VotLW on the turn they deepstrike.
I'd say that this comparison shows that Rubric Marines are slightly overpriced. 20 of them should not cost more than 10 SOT's, yet they do. And the SOT's are (as most terminators) slightly overpriced already...
Has there been any clarification on if the sorceror in Scarab/Rubric squads benefits from All is Dust? I can see it either way, as it refers to Rubric Marines, which is the model's name, but the unit as a whole has that as a keyword.
I really think we could benefit by getting our characters from a TS battalion with cultists as cheap tax, and getting our sons from a CSM battalion. This way we could keep the sons as MSU of 5 with a soulfire cannon each and go deepstrike them onto objectives. This would cost 120 pts per unit, 126 with a plasma pistol, so not exactly cheap, but it would be all but invincible for its points. With cover save and All is dust, good luck removing them unless you decide to spend stupid amounts of points on them. And even if you leave them alone, with the soulfire cannon and Tzeentch's firestorm/doombolt/infernal gateway on each aspiring would guarantee a ton of trouble. I really think this is how they are supposed to be played really.
To my knowledge (and happy to be proven wrong), they can only be elites.
Also...
If you take Rubrics from the CSM book, do they still get access to the TS spells or only 1W Smite?
In the same way that the TSDP differs to the CSM (&DG) one(s), are the CSM ones stuck in pre TS codex...
So sad :( I really want that cannon in 5 models. Maybe we'll get it in the faq. Let's see.
The down side is you lose their ability to cast anything but smite. The good is you get 5 men with the soulreaper cannon. It may be worth it. Take a warpsmith and 3 rubric squads from chaos, the rest from tsons, watch the world burn.
Also you lose the thousand sons keyword on the rubrics. I am pretty sure there was a faq that said you can't just use the legion keywords "Thousand sons" and be ok for using spells and stratagems on them from the real tsons codex. I don't know how much of a trade off this is but it is what it is.
Edit - Nevermind, the warpsmith can't repair vehicles not from his legion, so you can't repair any thousand son vehicles. I would rather be able to cast spells on them than repair with the smith.
But you can take a cheap lord instead to give reroll aura to the tanks? Could be a thing I guess.
If your going to do that why bother? You can just get an exalted sorcerer for the reroll. I am just not seeing a viable point if your sticking with Tzeentch. Now if your doing it to get some other god bonus's then there could be an argument, a Deamon Prince of Slaanesh with the Elixer is a very strong close combat beast vs ours. Of course ours has powers for days to cast so yeah.... still options are good. Or if your going maybe Alpha Legion detachment for 3 squads of 5 Rubrics with the cannons, 3+/5++ -1 to hit and all is dust in cover, good luck dealing with THAT.
I am not saying its not a viable tactic, I am just saying that I am not seeing any sort of extra synergy from it like Deamons can give Tsons.
I really think we could benefit by getting our characters from a TS battalion with cultists as cheap tax, and getting our sons from a CSM battalion. This way we could keep the sons as MSU of 5 with a soulfire cannon each and go deepstrike them onto objectives. This would cost 120 pts per unit, 126 with a plasma pistol, so not exactly cheap, but it would be all but invincible for its points. With cover save and All is dust, good luck removing them unless you decide to spend stupid amounts of points on them. And even if you leave them alone, with the soulfire cannon and Tzeentch's firestorm/doombolt/infernal gateway on each aspiring would guarantee a ton of trouble. I really think this is how they are supposed to be played really.
To my knowledge (and happy to be proven wrong), they can only be elites.
Also...
If you take Rubrics from the CSM book, do they still get access to the TS spells or only 1W Smite?
In the same way that the TSDP differs to the CSM (&DG) one(s), are the CSM ones stuck in pre TS codex...
So sad :( I really want that cannon in 5 models. Maybe we'll get it in the faq. Let's see.
The down side is you lose their ability to cast anything but smite. The good is you get 5 men with the soulreaper cannon. It may be worth it. Take a warpsmith and 3 rubric squads from chaos, the rest from tsons, watch the world burn.
Also you lose the thousand sons keyword on the rubrics. I am pretty sure there was a faq that said you can't just use the legion keywords "Thousand sons" and be ok for using spells and stratagems on them from the real tsons codex. I don't know how much of a trade off this is but it is what it is.
Edit - Nevermind, the warpsmith can't repair vehicles not from his legion, so you can't repair any thousand son vehicles. I would rather be able to cast spells on them than repair with the smith.
But you can take a cheap lord instead to give reroll aura to the tanks? Could be a thing I guess.
If your going to do that why bother? You can just get an exalted sorcerer for the reroll. I am just not seeing a viable point if your sticking with Tzeentch. Now if your doing it to get some other god bonus's then there could be an argument, a Deamon Prince of Slaanesh with the Elixer is a very strong close combat beast vs ours. Of course ours has powers for days to cast so yeah.... still options are good. Or if your going maybe Alpha Legion detachment for 3 squads of 5 Rubrics with the cannons, 3+/5++ -1 to hit and all is dust in cover, good luck dealing with THAT.
I am not saying its not a viable tactic, I am just saying that I am not seeing any sort of extra synergy from it like Deamons can give Tsons.
The whole purpose of this is to manage 1 soulfire cannon per 5 rubrics. I know we gain synergy from daemons. I kind of doubt is of vital importance to us. Sure exalted flamers is nice, but apart from that we don't gain much.
I really think we could benefit by getting our characters from a TS battalion with cultists as cheap tax, and getting our sons from a CSM battalion. This way we could keep the sons as MSU of 5 with a soulfire cannon each and go deepstrike them onto objectives. This would cost 120 pts per unit, 126 with a plasma pistol, so not exactly cheap, but it would be all but invincible for its points. With cover save and All is dust, good luck removing them unless you decide to spend stupid amounts of points on them. And even if you leave them alone, with the soulfire cannon and Tzeentch's firestorm/doombolt/infernal gateway on each aspiring would guarantee a ton of trouble. I really think this is how they are supposed to be played really.
To my knowledge (and happy to be proven wrong), they can only be elites.
Also...
If you take Rubrics from the CSM book, do they still get access to the TS spells or only 1W Smite?
In the same way that the TSDP differs to the CSM (&DG) one(s), are the CSM ones stuck in pre TS codex...
So sad :( I really want that cannon in 5 models. Maybe we'll get it in the faq. Let's see.
The down side is you lose their ability to cast anything but smite. The good is you get 5 men with the soulreaper cannon. It may be worth it. Take a warpsmith and 3 rubric squads from chaos, the rest from tsons, watch the world burn.
Also you lose the thousand sons keyword on the rubrics. I am pretty sure there was a faq that said you can't just use the legion keywords "Thousand sons" and be ok for using spells and stratagems on them from the real tsons codex. I don't know how much of a trade off this is but it is what it is.
Edit - Nevermind, the warpsmith can't repair vehicles not from his legion, so you can't repair any thousand son vehicles. I would rather be able to cast spells on them than repair with the smith.
But you can take a cheap lord instead to give reroll aura to the tanks? Could be a thing I guess.
If your going to do that why bother? You can just get an exalted sorcerer for the reroll. I am just not seeing a viable point if your sticking with Tzeentch. Now if your doing it to get some other god bonus's then there could be an argument, a Deamon Prince of Slaanesh with the Elixer is a very strong close combat beast vs ours. Of course ours has powers for days to cast so yeah.... still options are good. Or if your going maybe Alpha Legion detachment for 3 squads of 5 Rubrics with the cannons, 3+/5++ -1 to hit and all is dust in cover, good luck dealing with THAT.
I am not saying its not a viable tactic, I am just saying that I am not seeing any sort of extra synergy from it like Deamons can give Tsons.
The whole purpose of this is to manage 1 soulfire cannon per 5 rubrics. I know we gain synergy from daemons. I kind of doubt is of vital importance to us. Sure exalted flamers is nice, but apart from that we don't gain much.
Oh I understand that, and I am with you. If we can find some sort of tactic that makes this a great option, even an unexpected option, then I could see trying it. The best I see is the idea of running the Rubrics from a different legion setup, so your losing the ability to count the aspiring sorcerers for the Spell Boost Startagem and the ability to give the sorcerers different spells (again, small loss but could matter in some instances. I use my Asp's as backup spell casters to vital spells but normally they just smite anyways if I bother casting at all) to get access to some of the more tactical friendly traits like Alpha Legion or Iron Warriors or Black Legion. Personally I really like the idea of Rubric Marines with -2 AP weapons and no cover saves allowed.
The real question becomes what HQ do we take that can really help make this work. If it doesn't do something our hq's already can do I don't like the idea of taking it, it seems like a 'tax' at that point. That leaves apostles, warpsmiths (which I think would be a waste), sorcerers on bikes, things like that. There are options here.
Chaos lord with power sword
Rubric Squad A - 1 asp sorcerer, 3 with inferno bolters, 1 with Soulreaper cannon
Rubric Squad B - 1 asp sorcerer, 3 with inferno bolters, 1 with Soulreaper cannon
Rubric Squad c - 1 asp sorcerer, 4 with inferno bolters
Thousand Sons detachment - 1075 pts
Ahriman - Temporal Manipulation, Tzeentch firestorm, Weaver of fates
Deamon Prince - Dual Talons, Wings, Flickering Flames, Gaze of fate
Sorcerer in Terminator armor - Warlord (High Magister), Familiar, Glamor of Tzeench, Prescience, Helm of the 3rd Eye
Cultists Squad A - 10 cultists
Cultists Squad B - 10 cultists
Cultists Squad C - 10 cultists
That gets me to 1500 pts for tournament play. The iron hands deal with cover hiders and elite infantry , the Tsons deal with big targets and other threats. Cultists cover for alpha denial, objective holding.
That's about the best I could do. Obviously iron hands could be swapped for alpha legion if you wanted more deployment options instead of cover denial. Or you could go black legion if you wanted to be able to advance and shoot.
More points would get spent on things to deal with infantry swarms I think. Chaos spawns, or a predator tank, possibly havocs with auto cannons. Things of that nature.
SOT's are imo better most of the time.
That said, I would never field both 1x10 SOT's and 1x20 Rubrics in the same list, as they both desperately want VotLW on the turn they deepstrike.
I'd say that this comparison shows that Rubric Marines are slightly overpriced. 20 of them should not cost more than 10 SOT's, yet they do. And the SOT's are (as most terminators) slightly overpriced already...
I agree that rubrics probably ought to be 18 ppm rather than 20. I think rubrics are very comparable to intercessors and they have been lowered to 18 point per model, and Intercessors are beginning to show up in competitive lists because of that price reduction.
Terminators are struggling in all factions, not because they are too expensive for what they do, but rather because they fold like wet cardboard when targeted by overcharged plasma. The same is true of bikes. Overcharged plasma is simply too good.
With respect to aspiring sorcerees, I think the best casting-order is as follows:
1) Cast Gaze Of Fate with a DP 2) Cast whatever spells with all your aspiring sorcerers, using the reroll as perill-protection
3) Cast Warptime with your terminator-wizard, using the Gaze of fate reroll (if not spend already) to maximize your chances.
4) Cast with your remaining Psykers
That way you will be very unlikely to peril with your aspiring sorcerers or fail warptime.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: The only issue i see with SOT - if opponent has multi-wound attacks like Tau for example. They are very dead very soon.
But generally i'm thinking running 10 SOT + 30 tzaangors. This case i can deep strike tzaangors for 1CP, not 2CP (because of Rubrics deep strike).
And i agree - we should bring either Rubrics or SOT, not both - they're too expensive and we can not buff them both.
Even with multi wound attacks SOT end up in the same position as Rubrics when it comes to durability.
As long as your in cover with SOT you have a 2+ save vs D1 weapons with AP-2. Against AP -3 your going to see a fairly low shot count, which GoT helps with.
Multi damage weapons have the problem of low shot count out of the gate. Again GoT is helpful here, you still have a 2+ against -1 AP and 3+ vs -2 AP. SOT are very good if you know what your doing with them
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MinscS2 wrote: SOT's are imo better most of the time.
That said, I would never field both 1x10 SOT's and 1x20 Rubrics in the same list, as they both desperately want VotLW on the turn they deepstrike.
I'd say that this comparison shows that Rubric Marines are slightly overpriced. 20 of them should not cost more than 10 SOT's, yet they do. And the SOT's are (as most terminators) slightly overpriced already...
Agree on everything but the SOT pricing point. I don't think they are too expensive now, given GoT gives them a massuve boost in durability vs the things that kill them the fastest. Even OC plasma will think twice about shooting at them since 1s and 2s are a lost model, and any heavy weapons will be at -2 to hit if they move.
Even if you can't kill things like Tanks/Monsters, if you can shift the BS/WS profile by 1 and apply a -1 your looking at 5+/6+ compared to what would be a 3+/4+ to hit. Even 3 Leman Russ' are looking at .26 wounds per turn with their Battle Cannons.
I want some SOC, but I don't see a way to run them and rubrics at the same time and I prefer the extra guys over doubling up the wounds on a single model. Plasma is bad.
Another point though, all is dust adds 1 to your saving throw if the weapon has a damage profile of 1. That means you get a 4+ invulnerable save vs plasma unless it overcharged at which case it is killing a rubric and a soc the same. Am I wrong in this assessment?
Even with multi wound attacks SOT end up in the same position as Rubrics when it comes to durability.
No they don't. A hit from an over charged plasmagun will kill 22 points of Scarab or 11 points of Rubric. Rubrics are much more durable against pretty much any kind of multi-damage weapon.
Going off averages of a D6 roll is a bit squirrely but it ends up around 3.5
3.5 shots each = 10.5 total * .3333 to hit times .8333 to wound, 4+ save because 2+ armor and no all is dust, average of 2 damage. I get 2.9 wounds, but you get 2.5 average if you use 3 as the average of D6. 0.26 wounds would seem highly unlikely. Got is definitely a very solid spell against plasma, but the most common plasma slingers in town right now are scions, who would probably still Go Ahead and Make Your Day -1 to hit or not. Even burning one acion for every dead Sot would be a good trade, and they do get reroll 1s to hit.
In a competitive environment at the moment though the big problem isn't plasma, it's reapers. And sadly, they are immune to glamour (I blame their terrible fashion sense. Wing hats, really?) Until that nerfbat falls, terminators are a no go.
Scarabs don't play like normal terminators. With the amount of spells available to them, you can be pretty sure that they will eliminate one unit in shooting the turn they come down, and they will more than likely charge another unit the same turn (with warptime), especially since we can cast warptime with a +4 bonus. I don't see how they would be in trouble with reapers. And even if they are, it's ok since they will have murdered two units before they die. If they survive, dark matter crystal can beat the hit and run tactic they use.
Scarabs vs rubrics is a very interesting comparison.
Shooting-wise they are pretty much the same. You can pay 20 pts for 1 wound guy with a rapid fire 1 inferno boltgun, or you can pay 40 for a 2 wound guy with a rapid fire 2 inferno boltgun. Their differencies are:
Scarabs have +1 armor, power sword, deep strike and the ability to get hellyfires. Also better protection against perils.
Rubrics have troops and the fact that All is dust is a lot better on them than it is on scarabs. They are also more durable against multiwound weapons. However, their aspiring is like it's not a sorcerer, because 1 perils = 2d3 dead rubrics.
With the points costs as they stand now, I dare say the scarabs bring a lot more to the table. They are also more multi-dimensional. They can play in units of 5 with 2 heavy guns, they can play in big blobs of 10 as buff targets, they can play alpha strike shooting + hth with 2x VotlW in the same turn. Rubrics can either buy an overpriced transport or footslog. They can deepstrike with the stratagem, but their purpose is unclear. If we could have soulreaper cannon in 5 models and maybe a 2 point cost reduction, I could see them as an amazing MSU troop for objective holding (in fact more than amazing for that role).
topaxygouroun i wrote: Scarabs don't play like normal terminators. With the amount of spells available to them, you can be pretty sure that they will eliminate one unit in shooting the turn they come down, and they will more than likely charge another unit the same turn (with warptime), especially since we can cast warptime with a +4 bonus. I don't see how they would be in trouble with reapers. And even if they are, it's ok since they will have murdered two units before they die. If they survive, dark matter crystal can beat the hit and run tactic they use.
Scarabs vs rubrics is a very interesting comparison.
Shooting-wise they are pretty much the same. You can pay 20 pts for 1 wound guy with a rapid fire 1 inferno boltgun, or you can pay 40 for a 2 wound guy with a rapid fire 2 inferno boltgun. Their differencies are:
Scarabs have +1 armor, power sword, deep strike and the ability to get hellyfires. Also better protection against perils.
Rubrics have troops and the fact that All is dust is a lot better on them than it is on scarabs. They are also more durable against multiwound weapons. However, their aspiring is like it's not a sorcerer, because 1 perils = 2d3 dead rubrics.
With the points costs as they stand now, I dare say the scarabs bring a lot more to the table. They are also more multi-dimensional. They can play in units of 5 with 2 heavy guns, they can play in big blobs of 10 as buff targets, they can play alpha strike shooting + hth with 2x VotlW in the same turn. Rubrics can either buy an overpriced transport or footslog. They can deepstrike with the stratagem, but their purpose is unclear. If we could have soulreaper cannon in 5 models and maybe a 2 point cost reduction, I could see them as an amazing MSU troop for objective holding (in fact more than amazing for that role).
You don't see how a unit with 2 wounds, a 5++ invuln save, and deep strike, typically deployed in a unit of ten costing nearly 500 points, would be in trouble vs dark reaper spam?
Forewarned is a thing. Sure, you can sacrifice a tzaangor bomb or big rubric block to it first and the scarabs would probably kill a unit or even two as you describe, but then afterwards you're still up against a huge number of models armed with 2-shot S5 AP-3 D2 guns with range "board" and immunity to -1 to hit. The best you get is 4++ against them.
don't get me wrong, scarabs are probably better than rubrics in general. I'm just saying that in the current tournament meta they're basically a no-go, as reapers are essentially the perfect thing to kill them with.
Going off averages of a D6 roll is a bit squirrely but it ends up around 3.5
3.5 shots each = 10.5 total * .3333 to hit times .8333 to wound, 4+ save because 2+ armor and no all is dust, average of 2 damage. I get 2.9 wounds, but you get 2.5 average if you use 3 as the average of D6. 0.26 wounds would seem highly unlikely. Got is definitely a very solid spell against plasma, but the most common plasma slingers in town right now are scions, who would probably still Go Ahead and Make Your Day -1 to hit or not. Even burning one acion for every dead Sot would be a good trade, and they do get reroll 1s to hit.
In a competitive environment at the moment though the big problem isn't plasma, it's reapers. And sadly, they are immune to glamour (I blame their terrible fashion sense. Wing hats, really?) Until that nerfbat falls, terminators are a no go.
No I was saying rather then trying to destroy tanks in one go to prevent damage, simply damage them so thier BS gets worse.
So a 4+ BS becomes a 5+ BS with GoT thats a 6+ to hit.
Your right on the math I was off, did 2 for each shot (thinking damage writing shots).
10.5×.165×.825×.5=.714×2
Are they immune or do they ignore them during shooting phase? I always set my SOT on the board turn 1 GoT them then and focus fire an area I want to them to land in. DMC them on turn 2 to the right spot for maximum carnage. Extra points if you can get him to move them since they have a -2 when the SOT come in. Be sure to enjoy the ill conceled panic when he realizes he might kill 4 SOT, but your going to get at least 14 of his DRs. Probably more, if you DS in a Termie sorc.
After they soot at my SOT ill drop on a squad of Rubrics with flamers to close the distance and kill another squad. I can usually get 3 squads in a turn if everything goes right. It almost never does, but what are you going to do.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Scarabs don't play like normal terminators. With the amount of spells available to them, you can be pretty sure that they will eliminate one unit in shooting the turn they come down, and they will more than likely charge another unit the same turn (with warptime), especially since we can cast warptime with a +4 bonus. I don't see how they would be in trouble with reapers. And even if they are, it's ok since they will have murdered two units before they die. If they survive, dark matter crystal can beat the hit and run tactic they use.
Scarabs vs rubrics is a very interesting comparison.
Shooting-wise they are pretty much the same. You can pay 20 pts for 1 wound guy with a rapid fire 1 inferno boltgun, or you can pay 40 for a 2 wound guy with a rapid fire 2 inferno boltgun. Their differencies are:
Scarabs have +1 armor, power sword, deep strike and the ability to get hellyfires. Also better protection against perils.
Rubrics have troops and the fact that All is dust is a lot better on them than it is on scarabs. They are also more durable against multiwound weapons. However, their aspiring is like it's not a sorcerer, because 1 perils = 2d3 dead rubrics.
With the points costs as they stand now, I dare say the scarabs bring a lot more to the table. They are also more multi-dimensional. They can play in units of 5 with 2 heavy guns, they can play in big blobs of 10 as buff targets, they can play alpha strike shooting + hth with 2x VotlW in the same turn. Rubrics can either buy an overpriced transport or footslog. They can deepstrike with the stratagem, but their purpose is unclear. If we could have soulreaper cannon in 5 models and maybe a 2 point cost reduction, I could see them as an amazing MSU troop for objective holding (in fact more than amazing for that role).
You don't see how a unit with 2 wounds, a 5++ invuln save, and deep strike, typically deployed in a unit of ten costing nearly 500 points, would be in trouble vs dark reaper spam?
Forewarned is a thing. Sure, you can sacrifice a tzaangor bomb or big rubric block to it first and the scarabs would probably kill a unit or even two as you describe, but then afterwards you're still up against a huge number of models armed with 2-shot S5 AP-3 D2 guns with range "board" and immunity to -1 to hit. The best you get is 4++ against them.
don't get me wrong, scarabs are probably better than rubrics in general. I'm just saying that in the current tournament meta they're basically a no-go, as reapers are essentially the perfect thing to kill them with.
Of course I see it But I can cry about it or see what I can do about it. Obviously the easy answer is "don't take TS to a tournament stupid!" but this is a TS tactics thread. So let's be tactic-y. And when it comes to tactics, there's basically one thing we can do only, and that's an alpha strike bomb. We can do it with scarabs for an all-eggs-in-the-basket approach, or we can do it with tzaangors if we want to preserve points for a couple of anti-tank back in the deployment zone.
Or we can say frick it and bring Magnus and Ahriman and Termi Sorc and practically no units worth protecting and pick all MW powers and go around PEWPEWPEW and still lose anyways but heck, it's fun as frick.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: So at the end i think i'll go with 1 squad of 20 rubrics in deep strike because overcharged plasma just devastates SOT.
And massed heavy bolters or other AP1/AP2 D1 weapons devastates Rubrics.
Honestly, the relevant question is what your local meta is like.
Lots of plasma/reapers? Don't pick SOT's.
Not so much plasma/reapers? Go ahead and pick SOT's.
Going off averages of a D6 roll is a bit squirrely but it ends up around 3.5
3.5 shots each = 10.5 total * .3333 to hit times .8333 to wound, 4+ save because 2+ armor and no all is dust, average of 2 damage. I get 2.9 wounds, but you get 2.5 average if you use 3 as the average of D6. 0.26 wounds would seem highly unlikely. Got is definitely a very solid spell against plasma, but the most common plasma slingers in town right now are scions, who would probably still Go Ahead and Make Your Day -1 to hit or not. Even burning one acion for every dead Sot would be a good trade, and they do get reroll 1s to hit.
In a competitive environment at the moment though the big problem isn't plasma, it's reapers. And sadly, they are immune to glamour (I blame their terrible fashion sense. Wing hats, really?) Until that nerfbat falls, terminators are a no go.
No I was saying rather then trying to destroy tanks in one go to prevent damage, simply damage them so thier BS gets worse.
So a 4+ BS becomes a 5+ BS with GoT thats a 6+ to hit.
Your right on the math I was off, did 2 for each shot (thinking damage writing shots).
10.5×.165×.825×.5=.714×2
Are they immune or do they ignore them during shooting phase? I always set my SOT on the board turn 1 GoT them then and focus fire an area I want to them to land in. DMC them on turn 2 to the right spot for maximum carnage. Extra points if you can get him to move them since they have a -2 when the SOT come in. Be sure to enjoy the ill conceled panic when he realizes he might kill 4 SOT, but your going to get at least 14 of his DRs. Probably more, if you DS in a Termie sorc.
After they soot at my SOT ill drop on a squad of Rubrics with flamers to close the distance and kill another squad. I can usually get 3 squads in a turn if everything goes right. It almost never does, but what are you going to do.
in that case, why didn't you just assume that all three of the leman russ tanks would already be at 3 or fewer wounds, and say "3 leman russ tanks do 0 damage with their battlecannons against SOT on average"? After all, that is a pretty common situation to be in.
They are effectively immune, unless you are an army with a -1 to hit trait and you drop something outside of 12" of them, because Forewarned applies immediately when the unit arrives from reserves. This tactic of setting them on the board and crystal-ing them in works in reducing the average casualties from Forewarned to 4.5 from 6.3, but I still think just chucking a tzaangor blob in first and making them pick is probably the best option.
The way Forewarned functions, (and I always advise rules-lawyering this stratagem if your opponent is running reaperspam) he must immediately choose after you deep strike a unit whether or not to use the stratagem. So you deep strike in your tzaangors (or a unit of rubrics) and hold your SOTs. you ask your opponent "are you using Forewarned" because now he must decide. if he does, tank it, and drop the SOTs, if he opts not to, end your movement phase and hold the SOTs to next turn. And make damn sure that unit with the farseer dies.
For the record though, me thinking SOTs are a suboptimal choice vs one particular meta unit does not equal me saying Thousand Sons should never be taken to a tournament. I just think there are so many instances of scion plasma+Basilisks and reaperspam lists in the current meta that while SOTs have a slight edge in a vacuum, Rubrics are a better option at the present moment. They do similar things, with very slight differences, and right now the difference of being 1 wound favors the rubrics against common tournament list setups.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: So at the end i think i'll go with 1 squad of 20 rubrics in deep strike because overcharged plasma just devastates SOT.
And massed heavy bolters or other AP1/AP2 D1 weapons devastates Rubrics.
Honestly, the relevant question is what your local meta is like.
Lots of plasma/reapers? Don't pick SOT's.
Not so much plasma/reapers? Go ahead and pick SOT's.
^this.
if you're going to a big tournament, the latter probably applies. Bring the rubric bomb. Warpflamers are delicious against reapers. 20 rubrics with several warpflamers and 2 soulreapers plus a tzaangor bomb is our best setup vs current meta stuff. Don't forget to screen your gunline with cultists or brims for the deep strike alpha mirror match.
I'm also thinking about trying 2xDefilers OR 3xPredators but i have none of them right now, so need to ses which one works better before buying and painting.
Killshot works nice but i do not see very possible that all 3 Predators will survive for a long time. Defilers are less killy but it might survive better
ArtyomTrityak wrote: I'm also thinking about trying 2xDefilers OR 3xPredators but i have none of them right now, so need to ses which one works better before buying and painting.
Killshot works nice but i do not see very possible that all 3 Predators will survive for a long time. Defilers are less killy but it might survive better
Defilers look better to me. First of all, rerolling the battle cannon shots with gaze of fate is one of the best uses of a reroll for a turn we can get. A defiler with 4+ battlecannon shots is better than a las predator. Add to it the improved survivability, the close combat capacity and the fact that it's a daemon (so it can get flickering flames AND Votlw at the same time to wound land raiders on a 2+) and we got a winner I think. But not for spamming. I find 1 defiler and 2 predators to be better than 3 of anyone of them. Babysit them with an exalted on foot with temporal manipulation and diabolical strength and there's the gunline.
I think if I was going to take two preds it'd make little sense to take a defiler over a third one. Yes, you'll lose one almost immediately but you'll still get a Killshot off in about 60% of your games (I almost always get the +1 to go first with Tsons)
I think in most situations I'd rather have two defilers though. Or one defiler one heldrake. I think the heldrake is underappreciated in our arsenal. It's the only non deep strike element we have that can immediately participate turn 1 with our alpha elements.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: So at the end i think i'll go with 1 squad of 20 rubrics in deep strike because overcharged plasma just devastates SOT.
And massed heavy bolters or other AP1/AP2 D1 weapons devastates Rubrics.
Honestly, the relevant question is what your local meta is like.
Lots of plasma/reapers? Don't pick SOT's.
Not so much plasma/reapers? Go ahead and pick SOT's.
But the thing is, while heavy bolters and assault cannons are more effective vs rubrics than scarabs, neither is really super-effective against either. Overcharged plasma on the other hand makes Scarabs fold like wet cardboard. And plasma is not a niche weapon this edition, it is everywhere. The same is true of rokkits, missile launchers, last cannons etc. All of those will easily kill either a rubric or a scarab, but the latter is twice as expensive.
Apart from that I think that Scarabs has a number of advantages. They arrive in rapid-fire range, they don't need an assault screen, and you can use a max-size units without spending CPs on morale-autopass. The latter is pretty huge.
I think both of the aspiring sorcerers need Gaze of Fate as perill-protection. No difference there.
demontalons wrote: Gaze is only a demon power so unless you burn a command point to switch it out aspiring sorcerors can’t get it
True, but for me personally, a Deamon Prince (warlord for the 3++) will more or less always be a part of my list.
I love everything about them: combat-mage, fluff, model and rules. Hence I will always have Gaze of Fate (the only no-brainer power for him) available to me.
I also thinks he meant that he needs the GoF for his Aspiring Sorcerers in general, not that he actually gives them GoF.
Even if they could take it, giving them GoF would be counter-productive as they would risk PotW, manifesting a power that...helps them against PotW?
Might as well not manifest anything at all then.
demontalons wrote: Gaze is only a demon power so unless you burn a command point to switch it out aspiring sorcerors can’t get it
As Minsc2 points out the trick is to cast Gaze of Fate first, then cast with all your aspiring sorcerers having both rerolls to protect against peril, and then proceed to cast with your remaining psykers.
demontalons wrote: Gaze is only a demon power so unless you burn a command point to switch it out aspiring sorcerors can’t get it
Yes, but it is extremely easy to get on the board. Include/summon Changeling (guards Magnus, Englightened, Daemon Engines and casts GOF) or include a daemon prince, or give it to magnus.
I've been looking at possibilities of Chaos soup, death guard, and straight daemons, but I've settled on doing a flying circus army with just the Thousand Sons codex.
Now that I've settled on a 'dex, I need some suggestions. What's an appropriate amount of DP's to make a somewhat competitive flying circus list? I don't want to include Magnus, but I could do a Lord of Change. I'm thinking about a 2000 point list.
Also, what would be best for support? I have 30 rubrics that I break into 3 squads for a battalion, but I assume I need some firepower that the Daemon Princes can't provide on their own.
In that case, why didn't you just assume that all three of the leman russ tanks would already be at 3 or fewer wounds, and say "3 leman russ tanks do 0 damage with their battlecannons against SOT on average"? After all, that is a pretty common situation to be in.
Because I was talking about DSing SOT. So you have one round of shooting to do as much damage as possible to help curb the damage your going to take next turn/round.
They are effectively immune, unless you are an army with a -1 to hit trait and you drop something outside of 12" of them, because Forewarned applies immediately when the unit arrives from reserves. This tactic of setting them on the board and crystal-ing them in works in reducing the average casualties from Forewarned to 4.5 from 6.3, but I still think just chucking a tzaangor blob in first and making them pick is probably the best option.
They are immune in the shooting phase not the movement phase. If you cast GoT and then deep strike them you get much better durability especially since most people don't have a problem moving them on the first turn. Im getting different math, 4.5 normally and 3.3 at -1, 2.178 if you drop them the SOT in cover, and 1.437 at -2 to hit (moved and GoT).
I only have 20 Tzaangors and no cultists so I need to split them up into 2 squads other wise ill have 1 batallion tops. Plus you can drop in the SOT warp time them if you need to, shoot 2 units and charge a third, and end up killing 2x thier points in models the on turn 2.
the_scotsman wrote: The way Forewarned functions, (and I always advise rules-lawyering this stratagem if your opponent is running reaperspam) he must immediately choose after you deep strike a unit whether or not to use the stratagem. So you deep strike in your tzaangors (or a unit of rubrics) and hold your SOTs. you ask your opponent "are you using Forewarned" because now he must decide. if he does, tank it, and drop the SOTs, if he opts not to, end your movement phase and hold the SOTs to next turn. And make damn sure that unit with the farseer dies.
I totally agree.
the_scotsman wrote: For the record though, me thinking SOTs are a suboptimal choice vs one particular meta unit does not equal me saying Thousand Sons should never be taken to a tournament. I just think there are so many instances of scion plasma+Basilisks and reaperspam lists in the current meta that while SOTs have a slight edge in a vacuum, Rubrics are a better option at the present moment. They do similar things, with very slight differences, and right now the difference of being 1 wound favors the rubrics against common tournament list setups.
I disagree slightly, only because Rubrics have the LD problem. If you take heavy casualties you end up spending CP, or end up losing 20 point models to morale tests.
BTW where are we on multiple castings of WoF, since there appear to be two different versions. The TS one and the HA one?
lucas wrote: I've been looking at possibilities of Chaos soup, death guard, and straight daemons, but I've settled on doing a flying circus army with just the Thousand Sons codex.
Now that I've settled on a 'dex, I need some suggestions. What's an appropriate amount of DP's to make a somewhat competitive flying circus list? I don't want to include Magnus, but I could do a Lord of Change. I'm thinking about a 2000 point list.
Also, what would be best for support? I have 30 rubrics that I break into 3 squads for a battalion, but I assume I need some firepower that the Daemon Princes can't provide on their own.
in 8th edition hordes are rewarded a lot, so play a flying circus with few models isn't a great idea in my opinion, btw i guess you should include at least 4 Dp's , 1+loc in demon batt detachment and 3 more in supreme command det, Btw for me is a fragile list when the 30 rubrics are gone your Dp's will be shooted down pne after another, at maelstrom you might have issues, if opponent play lot of obj sec troops you cant disloge them from obj and they deny you control of them, i ve seen lot and lot of chaos soup lists playing 100+ models with obj sec and tons of firepower, btw hope you will get better with your flying circus.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: It looks like both Ribrics and SOT have their issues - morale for rubrics, plasma for SOT :(
I think i'm still going forward with Rubrics for now because i can spend 2CP to autopass but i can not fix plasma
There is another (partial) fix for Rubrics morale issues, and that is to take them in squads of ten. In squads of ten they are somewhat less susceptible to morale losses.
But in ten-man squads they also gain less from Prescience and Veterans of the Long War. One of the great advantages of maximum rubrics or maximum scarabs is that you can buff 400+ points of models with a single spell or stratagem. When buffing tzaangors, enlightened, daemon princes or pink horrors you are only applying the buff to around half that amount of points. I am personally leaning in favour of Rubrics, but I can see the arguments for Scarabs as well.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: It looks like both Ribrics and SOT have their issues - morale for rubrics, plasma for SOT :(
I think i'm still going forward with Rubrics for now because i can spend 2CP to autopass but i can not fix plasma
There is another (partial) fix for Rubrics morale issues, and that is to take them in squads of ten. In squads of ten they are somewhat less susceptible to morale losses.
But in ten-man squads they also gain less from Prescience and Veterans of the Long War. One of the great advantages of maximum rubrics or maximum scarabs is that you can buff 400+ points of models with a single spell or stratagem. When buffing tzaangors, enlightened, daemon princes or pink horrors you are only applying the buff to around half that amount of points. I am personally leaning in favour of Rubrics, but I can see the arguments for Scarabs as well.
Squads of 10 has alpha strike issue - they can be destroyed even before your 1st turn :( This why i put my 20 man rubric squad in DS reserve.
Pretty much any single unit can be alpha'd by a canny opponent though, this is hardly unique to rubrics in squads of ten. It's one of 8th's really interesting fault lines IMO - the intersection on the one hand of the benefits that accrue to big units in terms of deployment drops, CP and aura type rules, and on the other hand the screening, damage reduction and moral benefits that go along with a more MSU approach.
Let me ask an honest question here. Setting aside for a moment what we would like to be true of Rubrics, lets talk for a moment about what we actually think. There are some strats and whatnot that are cool to use with Rubrics, but is it possible that the only thing lifting them out of the same tier of usefulness as, say, Intercessors is wishful thinking? Intercessors tougher than normal marines, have a better basic weapon, and are good for objective camping in small units. I ask because I see a lot of players wanting to invest in Rubrics more like they're DA Hellblasters, but I'm not convinced they actually grade out that well.
Just because you need a big squad to really consider the CP cost of the stratagems doesn't necessarily mean that the big squad and stratagem combo is actually an efficient use of points. Just to clarify, I'm speaking here about high level play in general, not specifically LVO or Adepticon highest of the high level.
Fenris-77 wrote: Pretty much any single unit can be alpha'd by a canny opponent though, this is hardly unique to rubrics in squads of ten. It's one of 8th's really interesting fault lines IMO - the intersection on the one hand of the benefits that accrue to big units in terms of deployment drops, CP and aura type rules, and on the other hand the screening, damage reduction and moral benefits that go along with a more MSU approach.
Let me ask an honest question here. Setting aside for a moment what we would like to be true of Rubrics, lets talk for a moment about what we actually think. There are some strats and whatnot that are cool to use with Rubrics, but is it possible that the only thing lifting them out of the same tier of usefulness as, say, Intercessors is wishful thinking? Intercessors tougher than normal marines, have a better basic weapon, and are good for objective camping in small units. I ask because I see a lot of players wanting to invest in Rubrics more like they're DA Hellblasters, but I'm not convinced they actually grade out that well.
Just because you need a big squad to really consider the CP cost of the stratagems doesn't necessarily mean that the big squad and stratagem combo is actually an efficient use of points. Just to clarify, I'm speaking here about high level play in general, not specifically LVO or Adepticon highest of the high level.
There are a few directions for Rubrics:
1) MSU psychic battery for CF 2) MSU cover huggers (this used to be a lot better when we had the soulreaper in 5)
3) 10 man rhino riders in any configuration
4) 10 man fire base with soul reaper
5) 20 man deepstrike in any configuration
I am finding a lot of success with option #1. And I still find them as better objective holders if in cover as I'm much more inclined to shoot heavier weapons at intercessors. And while plasma is bad for rubrics it's worse for intercessors:
I agree that options 1 and 2 are legit - both effective and efficient (IMO anyway), but they both essentially treat Rubrics like Intercessors, just with slightly different rules and synergies.
What I was really asking about are options 2-4. Options 2 and 3 will run 200-250+ points, and option 4 starts at, what 360? That a lot of points in either case, and it feels like a lot of points for a squad that's mostly built around -2AP bolters and buffs. I'm not hating on the Rubes here, they've been a favorite of mine for years, I'm just not feeling the large squads unless efficiency is mostly out the window.
Fenris-77 wrote: Pretty much any single unit can be alpha'd by a canny opponent though, this is hardly unique to rubrics in squads of ten. It's one of 8th's really interesting fault lines IMO - the intersection on the one hand of the benefits that accrue to big units in terms of deployment drops, CP and aura type rules, and on the other hand the screening, damage reduction and moral benefits that go along with a more MSU approach.
Let me ask an honest question here. Setting aside for a moment what we would like to be true of Rubrics, lets talk for a moment about what we actually think. There are some strats and whatnot that are cool to use with Rubrics, but is it possible that the only thing lifting them out of the same tier of usefulness as, say, Intercessors is wishful thinking? Intercessors tougher than normal marines, have a better basic weapon, and are good for objective camping in small units. I ask because I see a lot of players wanting to invest in Rubrics more like they're DA Hellblasters, but I'm not convinced they actually grade out that well.
Just because you need a big squad to really consider the CP cost of the stratagems doesn't necessarily mean that the big squad and stratagem combo is actually an efficient use of points. Just to clarify, I'm speaking here about high level play in general, not specifically LVO or Adepticon highest of the high level.
I get the same feeling. Rubrics are like a mid between unit, better than a normal marine but not the strength of a terminator or primarus. I did find that Rubrics seem to exceptionally well against Genestealers today. I expected to lose an entire squad of 10 to 20 Genestealers charging with a Broodlord in range to get them to hit on 2+. I only ended up losing 3 marines though since Genestealers only do 1 wound our 'All is Dust' special rule just kicks butt. I got lucky thats for sure, but having 3+/4++ saves was amazing for a squad I had completely written off when it had gotten charged. By the halfway point into the game I found myself asking 'What is the damage of that weapon' more than any other question and those marines just would not die.
Having said all of that..... anything that does more than 1 wound makes Rubrics simply expensive marines with -2 bolters and they die super easily. In that case a squad of 20 works best so you can cast some booster spells like Glamor or +1 to Invulnerable. But even then its a case of Rubrics just don't hold up over time if your enemy has the right tools to deal with them. But find yourself in a 'nice' setup you can really kick butt. Rubrics vs Noise Marines for example, Rubrics will really do a number to them even at 24" vs 24".
I guess thats the problem and why Rubrics keep seeming so nice to us, by themselves in a vacuum they don't look as good but you start boosting them this way or that and they can do some serious damage. And thats why they are getting so much interest, there are tricks we can do with Rubrics that Hellblasters can't do. Weaver of Fates of them gives them a 2+/3++ vs D1 weapons, 3+/4++ against anything else. And in numbers its just awesome. Or use Glamor for the -1. Or Warp Flamers + Warptime + Dark Crystal. Massive potential when taken in true 'moderation', but the major issue shows up when they are tried to be taken as the main part of our force. For that, honestly, we need Tzaangors (which I won't use, call me a purist or a moron, whatever fits) or cultists which I just finished getting 30 of for my main battalion.
As an experiment I ran a 20 man rubric unit with 2x Soul Reapers, 17 Warpflamers and 1 Warpflame pistol in a local RTT level tournament (3 rounds). I had no idea what to expect with this unit but I was very pleased with how effective it was.
I used Web Way stratagem on them, deepstruck sorcerer terminator with Familiar/+1 Cast WL trait (and if necessary, terminator unit to use +2 cast stratagem in case I needed it) so I could Warptime them into range. If necessary, I also advanced the unit from Warptime so I could get in range of more units.
This unit, when combined with Veterans of the Long War just tore things up and generally killed whatever they shot at. The key for me was deciding how many flamers per target. This unit and a unit of 20 Tzaangors were my MVPs every game.
Going to try out a 10 man unit to see if it is worthwhile as well.
Overall, if you have a lot of other things in the army, 5 man units to spam should be sufficient, especially if GF errata's 1 soulreaper per 5 again.
This unit, when combined with Veterans of the Long War just tore things up and generally killed whatever they shot at.
I'd expect nothing less from a 660pts-unit.
I'd never field this myself though, you've basically lost the game if you fail Warptime.
That's why another rubric unit or flying character and cabalistic ritual are mandatory for alpha strike lists. Casting Warptime with a +4 bonus with a gaze of fate reroll should be more or less guaranteed. Also, my first thought was "oh no, 17 flamers in a unit, what a waste!" Then I remembered we can actually split fire at will. And Votlw once for all of them..... Then weaver of fates and glamour of tzeentch to survive the incoming onslaught. Then dark matter crystal out of combat and repeat...
I think if we manage to do this we could really finish whole games by turn two...
Automatically Appended Next Post: On an unrelated topic:
Is anyone else annoyed that the plagueburst clawler is a lot better than the Defiler?
In terms of armaments they are really comparable. Mortar is almost the same as the battle cannon, the crawler's side weapons are practically lascannons. They are both daemon engines, so increased survivability for a BS trade off.
In numbers:
Mortar: 12-48", same shots, str, ap and damage.
Battle cannon: 72" While battle cannon is better in range, 72" really is an overkill, 48" is more than enough and the mortar is also a plague weapon.
Entropy cannons vs lascannons: Entropy cannon has 36" range vs 48", one less strength but one better ap which I dare say is better for the mortar.
Survivability wise they are practically equal. T8 12W 5++/5+++ for the crawler, T7 14W, 5++ and 1 heal/turn free for the defiler. Pretty much the same if you ask me.
In hth the defiler has a clear advantage, but how often does the defiler end up in close combat really?
Ultimately though, even if they are pretty similar to their role, plagueburst crawler comes at 150 pts while a lascannon defiler clocks at 200. Do you think the added hth potential justifies the 50 pt price hike? Even if it does, do you think this hurts the overall army, since the "jack of all trades" approach never really worked in Warhammer?
Hi guys, I recently picked up a box of Scarab Occult Termies since they look fantastic!
If I was to make a pure TS army without Magnus/Ahriman, would something like this work?
HQ:
DP w/ Wings
Sorcerer in Term Armor
Troops:
2x 5man Rubrics
1x 10man Rubrics
Elites:
2x 5man SoTs
Something around 1000~1500pt?
Haven't being able to get a hold of the codex yet so apologies for the rough guess.
(Oh and it seems like Tzaangors are a thing but I really dislike their models... would it be possible to use Kairoc Acolyte models from AoS and use them instead?)
topaxygouroun i wrote: Ultimately though, even if they are pretty similar to their role, plagueburst crawler comes at 150 pts while a lascannon defiler clocks at 200. Do you think the added hth potential justifies the 50 pt price hike? Even if it does, do you think this hurts the overall army, since the "jack of all trades" approach never really worked in Warhammer?
No, the extra 50 points is too much. PBCs are wrecking armies at my FLGS right now.
Heelidar wrote: Just stop giving your defilers lascannons and it starts to shine. It is just a bad lascannon platform.
Shine as what? a dakka thing? Autocannon is really just a glorified heavy bolter for 15 pts. Even if you add a havoc launcher (strictly worse than a heavy bolter while more expensive) and also a combi bolter to go all anti-ifantry, what are you left with?
4 x str 7 ap-1 d1
d6str 5 ap 0 d1
rapidfire 2 str 4 ap0 d1
All the above for 165 pts... What is really the purpose of such a machine? All the dakka directly conflicts with how the battle cannon works and practically anti-ifantry is all we have in the rest of the army.
The defiler is already a confused thing to begin with ( long range anti AV platform with hth capabilities and bad movement/shoot synergy). If you add anti-infantry to the mix, it only gets more confused.
What is your experiences with the Defiler the way you suggest?
Well, it is mainly a sponge for enemy shooting. I keep it mostly cheap with scourge and repaer or THB, and imho it should be walking towards the enemy. Its shooting is very unreliable that way (actually it is unreliable anyway, and that is why I think that lascannons are just burn your points here), but it is so terrifying somewhat, that enemies tend to focus it ignoring some of my damage dealing units.
Heelidar wrote: Well, it is mainly a sponge for enemy shooting. I keep it mostly cheap with scourge and repaer or THB, and imho it should be walking towards the enemy. Its shooting is very unreliable that way (actually it is unreliable anyway, and that is why I think that lascannons are just burn your points here), but it is so terrifying somewhat, that enemies tend to focus it ignoring some of my damage dealing units.
Aha... the old DISTRACTION CARNIFEX. It could work like this perhaps.
For me, with an exalted aura for reroll 1's and flickering flames, its shooting is in fact interesting. It takes investing into, but it does deliver (and then of course it gets 50 pts more than the plaguebeast crawler, which gets me really angry).
Heelidar wrote: Well, it is mainly a sponge for enemy shooting. I keep it mostly cheap with scourge and repaer or THB, and imho it should be walking towards the enemy. Its shooting is very unreliable that way (actually it is unreliable anyway, and that is why I think that lascannons are just burn your points here), but it is so terrifying somewhat, that enemies tend to focus it ignoring some of my damage dealing units.
Aha... the old DISTRACTION CARNIFEX. It could work like this perhaps.
For me, with an exalted aura for reroll 1's and flickering flames, its shooting is in fact interesting. It takes investing into, but it does deliver (and then of course it gets 50 pts more than the plaguebeast crawler, which gets me really angry).
Yea, but If we are talking lascannons, than flickering flames are not needed.
And I generally think that FF are mostly needed elsewhere. There are so many options of where to use them, and defiler is still very unreliable. Not a good BS even if stationary, and random battlecannon shots.
Even a forgefiend looks like a better target for FF to me.
BoomWolf wrote: Thats because the defiler is NOT a shooting platform.
Stop treating it as such.
Its a melee monster, that has a secondary role as fire support.
Keep the guns cheap, move forward while shooting and create a credible threat.
Hardly see it as a melee monster with 4 attacks and WS 4+. If you want to play it this way, then the scourge is mandatory and it does do its job. However at that point, why not take a double fist hellbrute for way less points?
Yea, but If we are talking lascannons, than flickering flames are not needed.
And I generally think that FF are mostly needed elsewhere. There are so many options of where to use them, and defiler is still very unreliable. Not a good BS even if stationary, and random battlecannon shots.
Even a forgefiend looks like a better target for FF to me.
Why? Lascannons wounding on 3' vs lascannons wounding on 2's makes a huge difference, because of the damage potential of the weapon. A forgefiend sure is better to receive FF's, but a defiler is not a bad target, not by a longshot. as I said before, the defiler has practically the same armaments as the plagueburst crawler, which is kicking ass left and right. If the plagueburst is shooty enough, then the defiler is shooty enough. It's the point cost that makes it worse.
With the scourge and all the potential Demon and other aura related buffs the credibility goes way up. There's a level of synergy there that you don't get with the Brute. At 160-ish it's not too expensive, (*edit* snip - thinking of the Soulgrinder, which isn't good) and it fills up a good chunk of board with something that will make your opponent potentially reconsider his advance plans. And it's a great candidate for healing via the Tzeentch discipline.
And yeah, it's also a solid contender for that distraction carnifex role, but it hits hard enough that it can't really be ignored by most lists either. IDK if it's top-drawer, but there's enough juice there that I would consider it in a tournament list.
BoomWolf wrote: Thats because the defiler is NOT a shooting platform.
Stop treating it as such.
Its a melee monster, that has a secondary role as fire support.
Keep the guns cheap, move forward while shooting and create a credible threat.
Hardly see it as a melee monster with 4 attacks and WS 4+. If you want to play it this way, then the scourge is mandatory and it does do its job. However at that point, why not take a double fist hellbrute for way less points?
Yea, but If we are talking lascannons, than flickering flames are not needed.
And I generally think that FF are mostly needed elsewhere. There are so many options of where to use them, and defiler is still very unreliable. Not a good BS even if stationary, and random battlecannon shots.
Even a forgefiend looks like a better target for FF to me.
Why? Lascannons wounding on 3' vs lascannons wounding on 2's makes a huge difference, because of the damage potential of the weapon. A forgefiend sure is better to receive FF's, but a defiler is not a bad target, not by a longshot.
First of all, it has a scourge option that adds attacks. And we end up with 7, not 4.
Now about FF.
A lascannon has two shots. That is just 2 dice. Yes, wounding on 2 or three can make a difference, but firstly you need to hit with it, with the defilers BS you usually miss with at least half of the shots, and secondly adding +1 to one or two dice rolls is not as efficient as adding it to 20-30 dice rolls of shooting rubrics or SOT (I know that they are not daemons. i am talking about a concept). You have only one FF per turn if we are talking about matched play, and using in on a defiler is a waste. Still adding +1 to wound on a forgefiends 8 shots, or 8+d3 shots is a much better option. Unless you desperatly need to hit with that lascannon on this turn because of the battle situation.
Depends on what the rest of your army is. If it’s pure tsons then the defiler option is no problem. If you Have obliterators or horrors then that’s a different matter.
The advantages of the defiler over the brute, put quickly:
6 more wounds 5+ invul and regeneration makes a far tougher nut to crack. Degrading is a non-factor when comparing them. if you took exactly 7 wounds, next turin you regenerate 1 and return to maximum operational level, if you took 8-the brute compared has just died.
While not his purpose, he still packs a reaper autocannon and a battle canon in his "assualt" variant, and they can cause some damage until he hits combat.
Its a daemon engine, and can use the incredible Daemonforge stratagem, also a valid (and very good with his massive body) target for warpflame gargoyles.
In addition its also giving him access cross-synergies including Locus of Transmogrification, Locus of Tzeentch, Locus of Trickery, Flickering Flames, etc.
His CC ability, compared to the brute (as said-degrading is meaningless in this comparison, so we assume full power, as anything below full power-the brute has died already) the brute will land 3.33 S12 AP-3 D3 hits, while the defiler lands 2 S16 AP-3 Dd6 hits and 1.5 S12 AP-2 D3 hits.
So the defiler is better at cracking open T7 and T8 targets, while getting a similar result against T6 and below.
Long story short, everything the brute does-the defiler does too, then the defiler adds on top of it doing more in every way with a few extra shots, better anti-tank CC capabilities, the ability to keep going after the brute dies, tanking more firepower to even reach the point a brute would have died, and opening up a wide array of powerful interaction you can pull at your whim that the brute just can't do.
for mere 45 points extra, you are getting a hell of a deal.
BoomWolf wrote: Thats because the defiler is NOT a shooting platform.
Stop treating it as such.
Its a melee monster, that has a secondary role as fire support.
Keep the guns cheap, move forward while shooting and create a credible threat.
Hardly see it as a melee monster with 4 attacks and WS 4+. If you want to play it this way, then the scourge is mandatory and it does do its job. However at that point, why not take a double fist hellbrute for way less points?
Yea, but If we are talking lascannons, than flickering flames are not needed.
And I generally think that FF are mostly needed elsewhere. There are so many options of where to use them, and defiler is still very unreliable. Not a good BS even if stationary, and random battlecannon shots.
Even a forgefiend looks like a better target for FF to me.
Why? Lascannons wounding on 3' vs lascannons wounding on 2's makes a huge difference, because of the damage potential of the weapon. A forgefiend sure is better to receive FF's, but a defiler is not a bad target, not by a longshot.
First of all, it has a scourge option that adds attacks. And we end up with 7, not 4.
Now about FF.
A lascannon has two shots. That is just 2 dice. Yes, wounding on 2 or three can make a difference, but firstly you need to hit with it, with the defilers BS you usually miss with at least half of the shots, and secondly adding +1 to one or two dice rolls is not as efficient as adding it to 20-30 dice rolls of shooting rubrics or SOT (I know that they are not daemons. i am talking about a concept). You have only one FF per turn if we are talking about matched play, and using in on a defiler is a waste. Still adding +1 to wound on a forgefiends 8 shots, or 8+d3 shots is a much better option. Unless you desperatly need to hit with that lascannon on this turn because of the battle situation.
But a FF on the defiler is also +1 to wound on the battlecannon shots. Don't forget those. Also potentially +1 to wound on the twin heavy flamer (of course then you pay through the nose). Additionally, the defiler doesn't miss "at least half of it's attacks". It misses exactly half of them, but with a reroll aura it gets close to 58.5% to hit. Small difference, I know, but it is there. And the reason I say that the +1 to wound on the lascannon is important, is because of the ap-3 and the d6 damage that follows after a successful hit. Also ,usually there is no real reason to have both a defiler and a forgefiend in a list. Usually it's either/or.
Point is, in a pure TS list, our daemon choices are DP (which don't shoot), Defiler, FF, maulerfiend and helldrake. If we are talking shooting, then it's really Defiler vs FF. The DP could use the Flickering flames once he gets into hth, but before that he will be buffing the shooty daemon engine. Regardless of which one we may use, FF on a 5+ is an amazing spell we should always be picking with our DP.
Point is, in a pure TS list, our daemon choices are DP (which don't shoot), Defiler, FF, maulerfiend and helldrake. If we are talking shooting, then it's really Defiler vs FF. The DP could use the Flickering flames once he gets into hth, but before that he will be buffing the shooty daemon engine. Regardless of which one we may use, FF on a 5+ is an amazing spell we should always be picking with our DP.
Enlightened can also benefit from Flickering Flames. Not the best target for it, but it's a nice insurance if you fail to get those Guided by Fate-rolls.
We can do maths all day, but a forgefiend is just a more reliable daemon shooting weapons platform than a defiler. It has more shots and that's why it benefits more from any +1. ofc if we are not considering other daemons.
Oh, and a twin heavy flamer is just ridiculously expensive.
Defiler is definitely a shooting platform if you want to pay to make it so. Prescience + Flickering Flames + Rerolling 1's to hit = super effective anti tank. If that isn't enough or if you don't want to use the spells on it because you have a different tactic then that's fine, I build my list around it and last game Deffy dropped an exocrine down to 2 wounds first turn shooting, followed by wrecking a swarmlord who got too close. Simply put defilers are awesome back line objective holdings firing positions. Don't want to cast all that? Use The stratagem to reroll all failed hits and wounds. Just as effective for 1 CP.
20 rubric tactic seems valid, I will have to look into that more.
Finally got the codex and did a total revamp of the list I'm building towards over the weekend.
Adding a Helbrute with Scourge and Twin Heavy Bolter, which I will upgrade to -2AP with the Inferno Bolts stratagem. He will either help protect my backfield or move forward and kill objective camping troops.
Adding a Defiler with Scourge and keeping his shooting options cheap. He'll be the melee beast he's supposed to be and is a good candidate for a 1st turn Warptime.
Adding a Forgefiend with double Hades autocannons and the mouthgun. His role is obvious...priority candidate for Daemonfoge stratagem.
Adding a Maulerfiend, who I imagine will either be overlooked because of all of the above or, if prioritized, help protect what's above.
I just thought it was funny that the recent posts are all about comparing the Helbrute, Defiler, and fiends, and my mind has been like "hey, just add one of each!"
topaxygouroun i wrote: Man if the faq comes next weekend and we get 1 soulreaper per 5 rubrics then my list will fit into 2000 pts really like a glove.
I don't think they'd do that, but a heretic can dream...
Also, I've been reading the 20 Man Rubric discussion, and I think 20 man Rubric squads are really good for deepstrike, but if I'm not gonna deepstrike them I would prefer two squads of ten. Am I crazy here?
topaxygouroun i wrote: Man if the faq comes next weekend and we get 1 soulreaper per 5 rubrics then my list will fit into 2000 pts really like a glove.
If they are going to FAQ anything, it will be the CSM codex entry that allows a soulreaper cannon in a five-rubric squad.
(Oh and it seems like Tzaangors are a thing but I really dislike their models... would it be possible to use Kairoc Acolyte models from AoS and use them instead?)
You wouldn't be the first one. I will be using Kairic Acolytes as CCW cultists by combining them with the pistol and chainsword sprue from the Tzaangor box. Personally I really like both Kairics and Tzaangors.
Also, the_scotsman had the bright idea of using the Kairic Acolyte bird thingy as a familiar for the terminator sorcerer.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Man if the faq comes next weekend and we get 1 soulreaper per 5 rubrics then my list will fit into 2000 pts really like a glove.
If they are going to FAQ anything, it will be the CSM codex entry that allows a soulreaper cannon in a five-rubric squad.
Why? every single other infantry squad in every army basically can get a special/heavy weapon in 5 models. Some infantry (ie Tyranid Warriors) can get a heavy weapon every 3 models. I really think that we should be getting our soulreaper in 5 models.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Man if the faq comes next weekend and we get 1 soulreaper per 5 rubrics then my list will fit into 2000 pts really like a glove.
If they are going to FAQ anything, it will be the CSM codex entry that allows a soulreaper cannon in a five-rubric squad.
Why? every single other infantry squad in every army basically can get a special/heavy weapon in 5 models. Some infantry (ie Tyranid Warriors) can get a heavy weapon every 3 models. I really think that we should be getting our soulreaper in 5 models.
Over the weekend, I decided that the soulreaper cannon wasn't worthy of chasing and reduced my Rubrics to 9-man squads. I've been free ever since and am now also in line with Tzeentch.
Would be a rather dick more on their side, and will create (some) backlash for literally no gains on their part.
I could see them making the decision to just let it be on 5 man squads.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Man if the faq comes next weekend and we get 1 soulreaper per 5 rubrics then my list will fit into 2000 pts really like a glove.
If they are going to FAQ anything, it will be the CSM codex entry that allows a soulreaper cannon in a five-rubric squad.
Why? every single other infantry squad in every army basically can get a special/heavy weapon in 5 models. Some infantry (ie Tyranid Warriors) can get a heavy weapon every 3 models. I really think that we should be getting our soulreaper in 5 models.
That is not really true. Boyz, Guardsmen and others all get a heavy weapon per 10 models. But all that doesn't matter in the end. There is only one soulreaper cannon on the sprue, which is what matters to GW. What Tyranid Warriors and Shoota-boyz can take really isn't a factor here. That is how I see it.
Voidwraith wrote: Finally got the codex and did a total revamp of the list I'm building towards over the weekend.
Adding a Helbrute with Scourge and Twin Heavy Bolter, which I will upgrade to -2AP with the Inferno Bolts stratagem. He will either help protect my backfield or move forward and kill objective camping troops.
Adding a Defiler with Scourge and keeping his shooting options cheap. He'll be the melee beast he's supposed to be and is a good candidate for a 1st turn Warptime.
Adding a Forgefiend with double Hades autocannons and the mouthgun. His role is obvious...priority candidate for Daemonfoge stratagem.
Adding a Maulerfiend, who I imagine will either be overlooked because of all of the above or, if prioritized, help protect what's above.
I just thought it was funny that the recent posts are all about comparing the Helbrute, Defiler, and fiends, and my mind has been like "hey, just add one of each!"
Lol I hear ya. My standard list at 1250 or above is a Defiler and a Forgefiend. If one gets focused it gets the healing and protection spells to keep it alive long enough to get back in the game. If one gets focused to death well, I still have another toy to play withdrawal that's just as nasty.
My thing is at 1500+ I add a Helldrake in instead of a Maulerfiend. But a Maulerfiend with all the buffs sent forward to slaughter can be stupid nasty.
-1 to hit, 4++ invulnerable, 6-dmgstr 8 attacks at -2 Ap and 2 dmg. That's not a bad way to spend 155 pts and a few spells. Have a deamon prince hanging out with it for reroll 1's and the deamon prince can be Scooby-Doo and shaggy, killing whatever they hit.
It is all down to wording. The wording in CSM codex is ok. I don't see a problem with a sprue. Why aren't they bothered with adding twin HB or lascannons on a defiler sprue then?
topaxygouroun i wrote: Man if the faq comes next weekend and we get 1 soulreaper per 5 rubrics then my list will fit into 2000 pts really like a glove.
If they are going to FAQ anything, it will be the CSM codex entry that allows a soulreaper cannon in a five-rubric squad.
Why? every single other infantry squad in every army basically can get a special/heavy weapon in 5 models. Some infantry (ie Tyranid Warriors) can get a heavy weapon every 3 models. I really think that we should be getting our soulreaper in 5 models.
That is not really true. Boyz, Guardsmen and others all get a heavy weapon per 10 models. But all that doesn't matter in the end. There is only one soulreaper cannon on the sprue, which is what matters to GW. What Tyranid Warriors and Shoota-boyz can take really isn't a factor here. That is how I see it.
Boyz and guardsmen (and also cultists) are 4-6 pt horde models, not 18 pt elite cult units. Also, the wording in CSM is perfectly applicable to how the box is built "You can add a soulreaper cannon in the unit. If the unit has 20 rubric marines, you can have a second one". Lets you do 1 cannon in 5 or 2 in 20. Much better than 1 in 10, and much more fair for us too.
Fenris-77 wrote: I agree that options 1 and 2 are legit - both effective and efficient (IMO anyway), but they both essentially treat Rubrics like Intercessors, just with slightly different rules and synergies.
What I was really asking about are options 2-4. Options 2 and 3 will run 200-250+ points, and option 4 starts at, what 360? That a lot of points in either case, and it feels like a lot of points for a squad that's mostly built around -2AP bolters and buffs. I'm not hating on the Rubes here, they've been a favorite of mine for years, I'm just not feeling the large squads unless efficiency is mostly out the window.
I think it works in a list like this. 9 CP and 67 points to spare. Shove the Tzaangors and Rubrics in the Webway. Ahriman buffs and heals the fiends. Cultists buffer your deployment and cap objectives. Tzaangors come down turn 1 and warp time in. Maulerfiends rush up and put the pressure on. Turn two the Rubrics come in and open holes to let the Maulerfiends warptime deeper in using reroll charges from the Mutalith.
How are you going to get the Mutalith in range of the charging tzaangors T1? Perhaps bring the rubrics first, then bring the tzaangors down second turn? This will give you one turn of super charge with multiple maulerfiends and tzaangors, and by then the Mutalith will have moved twice and be that much closer to the tzaangors.
Automatically Appended Next Post: FAQ is up. We basically got nothing except typo fixes.
OK, I like it. Now, what happens when I ask if that 433pt unit does the job you describe better or worse than 60 Horrors. You see where I'm going? The Horrors drop 180 shots (out of DS if that's your thing) also with all kinds of buff potential.
Both units have lots of buffs available, but I wonder if KSons players aren't taking a bit of a bath taking Rubrics instead of Horrors, generally speaking. I do like Dark Matter Crystal Shenanigans, so there's that, but it feels more niche than a straight out equalizer. Plus the crystal could be used on other units for late game type[ stuff anyway. IDK. Maybe I just wanted Rubrics ot be a more obvious choice in the list that is defined by them.
topaxygouroun i wrote: How are you going to get the Mutalith in range of the charging tzaangors T1? Perhaps bring the rubrics first, then bring the tzaangors down second turn? This will give you one turn of super charge with multiple maulerfiends and tzaangors, and by then the Mutalith will have moved twice and be that much closer to the tzaangors.
Automatically Appended Next Post: FAQ is up. We basically got nothing except typo fixes.
Mutalith is for the Maulerfiends. Tzaangors are there to die and give some flexibility depending on the opponent. The nice thing is you can adjust the plan to even what you suggest. It's probably my favorite part of this book.
Fenris-77 wrote: OK, I like it. Now, what happens when I ask if that 433pt unit does the job you describe better or worse than 60 Horrors. You see where I'm going? The Horrors drop 180 shots (out of DS if that's your thing) also with all kinds of buff potential.
Both units have lots of buffs available, but I wonder if KSons players aren't taking a bit of a bath taking Rubrics instead of Horrors, generally speaking. I do like Dark Matter Crystal Shenanigans, so there's that, but it feels more niche than a straight out equalizer. Plus the crystal could be used on other units for late game type[ stuff anyway. IDK. Maybe I just wanted Rubrics ot be a more obvious choice in the list that is defined by them.
You can't take horrors in TS armies, only summon them. You need to include Daemon detachments, and then you don't have TS any more.
topaxygouroun i wrote: How are you going to get the Mutalith in range of the charging tzaangors T1?
Not always possible, but with it's 8" move, D6" advance and 9" aura-range it's possible to reach a big unit of Webway Infiltrating Tzaangors on turn 1 if you deploy it right, especially if you let one Tzaangor stay back, closer to the Mutalith.
If whatever your Tzaangors are charging is hugging the opposite table edge, then yeah nah, the Mutalith won't reach.
Edit: Unless you're feeling ballsy and Warptime the Mutalith instead of the Tzaangors that is.
Fenris-77 wrote: OK, I like it. Now, what happens when I ask if that 433pt unit does the job you describe better or worse than 60 Horrors. You see where I'm going? The Horrors drop 180 shots (out of DS if that's your thing) also with all kinds of buff potential.
Both units have lots of buffs available, but I wonder if KSons players aren't taking a bit of a bath taking Rubrics instead of Horrors, generally speaking. I do like Dark Matter Crystal Shenanigans, so there's that, but it feels more niche than a straight out equalizer. Plus the crystal could be used on other units for late game type[ stuff anyway. IDK. Maybe I just wanted Rubrics ot be a more obvious choice in the list that is defined by them.
You can't take horrors in TS armies, only summon them. You need to include Daemon detachments, and then you don't have TS any more.
That last bit is opinion, not fact. Some people might like mono armies, but that's not how 8th Ed works. Not hating btw, I like mono armies, they aren't the playing field that 8th works on (whether we like it or not).
Fenris-77 wrote: OK, I like it. Now, what happens when I ask if that 433pt unit does the job you describe better or worse than 60 Horrors. You see where I'm going? The Horrors drop 180 shots (out of DS if that's your thing) also with all kinds of buff potential.
Both units have lots of buffs available, but I wonder if KSons players aren't taking a bit of a bath taking Rubrics instead of Horrors, generally speaking. I do like Dark Matter Crystal Shenanigans, so there's that, but it feels more niche than a straight out equalizer. Plus the crystal could be used on other units for late game type[ stuff anyway. IDK. Maybe I just wanted Rubrics ot be a more obvious choice in the list that is defined by them.
You can't take horrors in TS armies, only summon them. You need to include Daemon detachments, and then you don't have TS any more.
That last bit is opinion, not fact. Some people might like mono armies, but that's not how 8th Ed works. Not hating btw, I like mono armies, they aren't the playing field that 8th works on (whether we like it or not).
Except it is not. The Thousand Sons codex is pretty clear on this. This is the tactics section about Thousand Son armies, not the tactics section about Daemon armies. Suggesting to remove rubric marines for horrors to improve the "Thousand Sons" army is anything but.
It’s upsetting to find out that rubrics are just meh. I played on Sunday with 2 ten man squads and a 5 man sot squad none of the units had anywhere near the impact of the 30 tzaangors that I ds and warptimed on my turn 1. Even the 6 man enlightened unit that was reduced to 3 models before they shot had a bigger impact when used as a bodyguard to a shaman and Ahriman.
nintura wrote: Welp, FAQ is out. FW Helbrutes are out of Fire Frenzy. They didn't touch the Soulreaper per 10 men.
"We make rules balanced for everyone". Read "We made a box with only one heavy weapon in it, tough luck my man."
I don't know if it's unbalanced. I can see where a Soulreaper in 5 might be a little much, because no one would take anything else given we get a free sorcerer to boot. I would prefer 1 in 5, but i'm not going to die if we never get it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Guyver 3 wrote: It’s upsetting to find out that rubrics are just meh. I played on Sunday with 2 ten man squads and a 5 man sot squad none of the units had anywhere near the impact of the 30 tzaangors that I ds and warptimed on my turn 1. Even the 6 man enlightened unit that was reduced to 3 models before they shot had a bigger impact when used as a bodyguard to a shaman and Ahriman.
If you're walking rubrics and then comparing them to tzaangors with spells/support then you're gonna have a bad time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nintura wrote: Well, I'm joining the Tin Foilers after this faq. I'm almost positive Rubrics are useless.
nintura wrote: Welp, FAQ is out. FW Helbrutes are out of Fire Frenzy. They didn't touch the Soulreaper per 10 men.
"We make rules balanced for everyone". Read "We made a box with only one heavy weapon in it, tough luck my man."
I don't know if it's unbalanced. I can see where a Soulreaper in 5 might be a little much, because no one would take anything else given we get a free sorcerer to boot. I would prefer 1 in 5, but i'm not going to die if we never get it.
Though it's not really a "free sorcerer" now is it? He can't cast smite to save his life and he instantly kills half his own unit the moment he perils. What he is left with is the Thousand Sons lore to pick his power from, and that's a 7-9+ to cast lore. Plus practically every spell that you would want to cast in the game you would actually give to a sorcerer with a bonus to cast. So in effect it's not a free sorcerer, it's a unit champion. And nobody pays for those any more either.
I will have to board the Nintura boat on this one. Rubrics without 4++, with 15 pt flamers (wot), with only 1 heavy weapon allowed in 10 models (like we are fricking cultists and not ancient powerful elite Cult troupe) and with an all-but-useless aspiring sorcerer whose only saving grace is a plasma pistol option. Rubrics are useless.
Guyver 3 wrote: It’s upsetting to find out that rubrics are just meh. I played on Sunday with 2 ten man squads and a 5 man sot squad none of the units had anywhere near the impact of the 30 tzaangors that I ds and warptimed on my turn 1. Even the 6 man enlightened unit that was reduced to 3 models before they shot had a bigger impact when used as a bodyguard to a shaman and Ahriman.
If you're walking rubrics and then comparing them to tzaangors with spells/support then you're gonna have a bad time.
You’re making that assumption!
I’m talking about whole game impact. Did the rubrics do their job? I suppose but did they do a job that couldn’t be done as well or better by a cheaper unit!
I think acceptance that rubrics are meh is a hard pill to swallow, GW have designed the book to be codex tzaangors and wizards not codex rubric marines
nintura wrote: Welp, FAQ is out. FW Helbrutes are out of Fire Frenzy. They didn't touch the Soulreaper per 10 men.
"We make rules balanced for everyone". Read "We made a box with only one heavy weapon in it, tough luck my man."
I don't know if it's unbalanced. I can see where a Soulreaper in 5 might be a little much, because no one would take anything else given we get a free sorcerer to boot. I would prefer 1 in 5, but i'm not going to die if we never get it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Guyver 3 wrote: It’s upsetting to find out that rubrics are just meh. I played on Sunday with 2 ten man squads and a 5 man sot squad none of the units had anywhere near the impact of the 30 tzaangors that I ds and warptimed on my turn 1. Even the 6 man enlightened unit that was reduced to 3 models before they shot had a bigger impact when used as a bodyguard to a shaman and Ahriman.
If you're walking rubrics and then comparing them to tzaangors with spells/support then you're gonna have a bad time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nintura wrote: Well, I'm joining the Tin Foilers after this faq. I'm almost positive Rubrics are useless.
Be honest you were there before the book was out.
Not really. I figured GW was just taking them in a bad direction, but what I mean now, is that it really does seem they did it on purpose just to push sales. I like to give the company the benefit of the doubt but wow....
Though it's not really a "free sorcerer" now is it? He can't cast smite to save his life and he instantly kills half his own unit the moment he perils. What he is left with is the Thousand Sons lore to pick his power from, and that's a 7-9+ to cast lore. Plus practically every spell that you would want to cast in the game you would actually give to a sorcerer with a bonus to cast. So in effect it's not a free sorcerer, it's a unit champion. And nobody pays for those any more either.
I will have to board the Nintura boat on this one. Rubrics without 4++, with 15 pt flamers (wot), with only 1 heavy weapon allowed in 10 models (like we are fricking cultists and not ancient powerful elite Cult troupe) and with an all-but-useless aspiring sorcerer whose only saving grace is a plasma pistol option. Rubrics are useless.
I peril more on Ahriman than I do my rubrics. In fact I can't remember the last time I did. Anecdotal, sure, but there it is. I don't play my games based around a 1 in 16 chance. Firestorm and Boon are a perfectly competent spells for them to cast and they can regularly achieve smite at 6 and 7.
FW helbrutes back to not being able to use fire frenzy
Exalted sorcerors can take two swords.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bolt of change down to power 8 which is correct.
No acknowledgement that glamour is one power higher than the identical Nurgle spell.
i would like to try Ts detachment (battalion) with vanilla chaos (another battalion), someone had some experience with that? what did you play? thanks.
Though it's not really a "free sorcerer" now is it? He can't cast smite to save his life and he instantly kills half his own unit the moment he perils. What he is left with is the Thousand Sons lore to pick his power from, and that's a 7-9+ to cast lore. Plus practically every spell that you would want to cast in the game you would actually give to a sorcerer with a bonus to cast. So in effect it's not a free sorcerer, it's a unit champion. And nobody pays for those any more either.
I will have to board the Nintura boat on this one. Rubrics without 4++, with 15 pt flamers (wot), with only 1 heavy weapon allowed in 10 models (like we are fricking cultists and not ancient powerful elite Cult troupe) and with an all-but-useless aspiring sorcerer whose only saving grace is a plasma pistol option. Rubrics are useless.
If only Rubrics had a better than normal rapid fire weapon. Something with, I dunno, a -2 AP or something. That, and just hear me out, what if they were as tough as Terminators against small arms fire and have a 5++ to help against the big guns? Wouldn't that be cool?
/sarcasm off
Look, I'm not saying they're the best troop unit in the game or anything, but to talk as if Rubrics have nothing going for them is insanity.
