ArtyomTrityak wrote: Imho terminators are overpriced, deep strriking rubriks should be cool
Points to shots, the Terminators are cheaper than the Rubric, and do not cost CP to deepstrike. I like them better and think they are close to be a must have in the list.
Maybe i played them wrong but usually they deep strike, shoot at something, maybe charge and die next turn because they're too close to enemy army.
You didn't have Glamour of Tzeentch to cast on them, and Weaver of Fate was almost always used for Tzaangors, with a 3++ and -1 to hit drop them in cover your getting 2+ save vs ap -2 weapons and 3+ vs everything else, deep strike in some Tzaangors in front of them and your sitting pretty.
demontalons wrote: Our demon prince got really good, 4++ and 2 powers to cast, exalted are still too expensive for what they do.
Hmmm for 1 cp we can give a vehicle inferno bolts...... almost tempting to field a twin bolter dread now, 114 pts with missile launcher isn’t a bad anti infantry platform.
All in all lackluster strats with the star being the deep strike strat. You won’t see a thousand son army without the deep strike relic or the 5+ reclaim command point one.
Luckily all this is made up for with the psychic powers. Casting the free reroll power first will be critical to staving off the miscasts, as will cabalistic focus.
How do we get a reroll?
The Gaze of Fate power from the Tzeentch discipline. One of your HQ's should be a daemon prince to pick this up, IMO.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: Imho terminators are overpriced, deep strriking rubriks should be cool
Points to shots, the Terminators are cheaper than the Rubric, and do not cost CP to deepstrike. I like them better and think they are close to be a must have in the list.
Maybe i played them wrong but usually they deep strike, shoot at something, maybe charge and die next turn because they're too close to enemy army.
I've been using scarab occult terminators in a narrative league right now and even there where the competition isn't that fierce that's been my experience too. My last game with them was especially depressing, they dropped in and killed a few primaris marines, then the primaris librarian that was supporting them charged and soloed the entire unit over the next couple rounds of melee. I'd be more inclined to use them if they at least had force weapons.
I was really hoping to see some options on the SOT - power axes would have been a life saver. But nope, they're still much much better off never getting into CC. To that end, they really want to deepstrike into cover, and cast glamour of tzeentch on themselves. from there they can VOTLW some damage out, and terrain will make it harder for them to be charged. I'm not saying they're great, just that they should be keeping away from cc.
There is no terminator unit that can do that, I’ve had good success with my terminators but I never deepstrike them solo, until now I’ve been using a dreadclaw to deposit Ahriman and 9 flamers with my terms.
Terms are only good for providing close range fire support to shred infantry sadly close combat is not where you ever want to be.
With the new dex though there is no reason to ever send them into combat alone. We have the stratagem to deepstrike infantry and we can now deepstrike a demon prince or an infantry unit as well with a relic. If we wanted to we can place up to 3 units anywhere on the board. Units that otherwise would be slow moving.
Pick a flank where the enemy isn’t well prepared and just start to roll it up. It’s particularly effective against large slow moving armies such as orks, or close combat oriented armies. Your 3 units should be able to clear a no charge zone.
My question is if we should start fresh with a new Tactics thread since the codex is out.
It would help people not get confused if they were to look at earlier pages.
Additionally, it may spark new life to this thread if the OP consolidated all the information onto the first couple posts.
But arent Pistols on average better than the blades? Cause you can fire them more often than hit with the blades? I have no idea, just my feeling - HELP!
Arachnofiend wrote: Tzaangor Blades always, IMO. An autopistol that hits on a 4+ is not competitive with -1 AP.
Well not really; Most of the time those pistols can probably hit on 2's, at least 3's the vast majority of the time.
The Shaman Alone brings them to a 3+. and if i am running a herd ill always have a shaman.
The biggest issue thousand sons had pre-codex is "Volume", I regularly field 20+ Rubrics so the idea of "-1" meaning much when we have so much -2 guns floating around....meh, screw that. I gave them autopistols, beat the enemy twice, and shoot em once.
Following phase if in combat shoot em again then beat em some more!
Not sure if anyone noticed but the terminator sorceror gets a familiar which grants +1 to the first spell in each phase, you could combine that with the +1 psychic test warlord trait and have your first spell be at +2. A poor mans magnus but may be useful for getting off a truly crucial spell when combined with the +2 stratagem as well
Did anyone notice with any of the previews or early YouTube reviews if rubric marines had the minimum retirement for Soulreaper cannon match what's in chaos codex or is it still like index where you need 10 before you get the cannon?
demontalons wrote: Not sure if anyone noticed but the terminator sorceror gets a familiar which grants +1 to the first spell in each phase, you could combine that with the +1 psychic test warlord trait and have your first spell be at +2. A poor mans magnus but may be useful for getting off a truly crucial spell when combined with the +2 stratagem as well
Yeah, that's really awesome. I don't think you make it your warlord because of how powerful you can make a Daemon Prince warlord with the right trait, but a Sorcerer in Terminator armor with the dark crystal is auto include for me. I'd use it as rescue deep strike, holding him for as long as needed, and finally coming in for an emergency warptime, or dark crystal, or whatever.
Interesting to hear about your use of autopistol tzaangors, Ahriman21. As you say, I can see them being more viable now with the Tzaangor buffs, but then you're giving up a whole class of viable targets in order to be better chaff clearers. Not sure I like the trade off.
I think the ten requirement will get faq’d. It seems like a copy and paste error.
I’m seriously wondering whether I need 3 casters or 2. Ahriman is still a steal at 131, the DP is a beast and has access to demon spells which we desperately need for that free reroll spell and infernal gateway with the stratagem can be cast on a 6. As noted the terminator sorceror gets +1 to his first cast per turn.
The question is who should be warlord? I personally think the terminator sorceror to get +2 on crucial spells then have Ahriman have the next needed spells and last use the DP for the others. With so many spells and situations I foresee the change spell stratagem getting used a lot.
If we are smart with our spell list we can inflict a huge amount of mortal wounds within a small area, and use our non Psyker units to target chaff
The warlord question is though.
On one hand, the terminator with +2 to first spell is amazing.
On the other, quite a few traits are insane on a prince.
Also, the relic question.
We obviously want the helm and crystal, but who shall carry them?
BoomWolf wrote: The warlord question is though.
On one hand, the terminator with +2 to first spell is amazing.
On the other, quite a few traits are insane on a prince.
Also, the relic question.
We obviously want the helm and crystal, but who shall carry them?
The helm goes on someone who doesn't deep strike like a daemon prince, the crystal goes on someone who does like a termi sorc/webway exalted. You want the helm to start off on the table so you can start regenerating CP right away, and the crystal needs to be on someone who can be in position to rescue whatever block needs to be repositioned as easily as possible.
Interested in hearing some thoughts regarding this enlightened idea.....
Now the obvious choice is of course Bows, as statistically they overall seem pretty great both in damage potential (even for D1) and utility, and I will definitely make use of them.
However my thought was regarding spears, 1 point cheaper per model isnt really a big deal, however considering the daemon key word, the flying ability, how fast they move combined with sorcerers and a shaman....I would imagine that we could make a pretty effective Melee module flying around the map.
Take a group of between 6 and 12 enlightened all with spears, Take an Exalted Sorcerer with Seers Bane and the +1 invul warlord trait, take a Tzaangor shaman nearby for bonus to hit rolls without needing to roll for a spell, and the exalted of course provides re-rolls thanks to his lovely new aura.
Of course the enlightened are relatively fragile statistically being at T4, 2 wounds, and 5++ save, so tossing 1-2 buffs on them (see; Weaver and Glamour) would be a requirement.
But this grouping has potential to cause some real havoc on flanks, fly up a flank, deny one side of the table completely to anything that gets in the way, and due to having D2 weapons could feasibly destroy a vehicle or assassinate a character relatively easily.
Each of the Tzaangors swings twice (3 for Aviarch) with a STR 5 -1 ap weapon that is D2 on charge. Meaning the charge turn they would be super accurate and deal decent damage, If they come up against truly "hard" targets (elite squads, powerful tanks) those units will have Ld 9 and the exalted goes in with them and goes to town.
This unit would almost always be the one GETTING the charge given easy access to Warp Time, sling-shoting them across the map to support other sections of the army or harrass another vehicle/character would also be very easy to do.
I suppose the best part regarding that is the *relatively* cheap cost PPM of the enlightened are *relatively* low and their damage potential is very good. High Volume weaponry would be a large concern for the enlightened so making a point of a defensive buff on them would be important.
I think it depends on how you plan on using them. If you want to use them alone to hunt isolated units then definitely the bows, but if you plan to use them as part of a larger whole I think the spears give you something the bows don’t and that is D2.
If you’re going to deepstrike some tzaangors and terminators and use the relic to get a demon prince in there as well then I think the spears are a good choice because you’re overloading with dangerous CC units while the termis thin the chaff.
As for where relics go for each I think it depends on what you want to use it for, if you think of the crystal as a way to rescue units then put it on the termi sorc or a jumppack sorc. Personally I see it as a free way to deepstrike a demonprince or a unit of infantry without spending an extra 2 cp.
So demon prince gets the relic and can either commit to the battle or wait til an opening pops up and get behind enemy lines and start picking off backline units. While the termi sorceror has the helm. Yes you lose out on a few cp if you don’t stay ds immediately but I think it’s worth the trade off to get a deepstriking demon prince.
I just ordered 9 Enlightened myself and I'm not sure if I'm gonna give them spears or bows.
The spears are decent and allows them to go after pretty hard targets (vehicles, monsters) and characters.
The bows on the other hand gives them some solid shooting and they can still go after shaff and GEQ's with their normal 3 S4 attacks each. The bow also synergizes well with Fly.
Shoot, charge in, then leave and shoot something else.
Let's do some math:
(Not counting the attacks from the disc as it's the same regardless of wargear. Also not bothering with buffs other than the +1 to hit from the mandatory Shaman.)
Spoiler:
9 Enlightened with Spears against MEQs:
19 attacks, 6,33 autowounds, 9,5 hits, 6,33 more wounds.
12,66 wounds in total, 6,33 after saves (12,66 wounds if D2 is utilized)
9 Enlightened with Spears against REQs: (Rhino Equivalents)
19 attacks, 6,33 autowounds, 9,5 hits, 3,17 more wounds.
9,5 wounds in total, 4,75 after saves, (9,5 wounds if D2 is utilized.)
9 Enlightened with Bows against MEQs.
Shooting: 18 shots, 6 autowounds, 9 hits, 6 wounds.
12 wounds in total, 6 after saves.
Melee: 19 attacks, 6,33 autowounds, 9,5 hits, 4,75 wounds.
11,08 wounds in total, 3,69 after saves.
Total: 9,69 wounds.
9 Enlightened with Bows against REQs
Shooting: Shooting: 18 shots, 6 autowounds, 9 hits, 3 wounds.
9 wounds in total, 4,5 after saves.
Melee: 19 attacks, 6,33 autowounds, 9,5 hits, 3,17 wounds.
9,5 wounds in total, 3,17 after saves.
Total wounds: 7,67.
Spears against MEQ: 6,33 wounds (12,66 if D2 is utilized)
Spears against REQ: 4,75 wounds (9,5 if D2 is utilized)
Bows (and regular attacks) against MEQ: 9,69 wounds.
Bows (and regular attacks) against REQ: 7,67 wounds.
Basically the spears performs the best against targets where D2 comes into play (Monsters, Vehicles, Characters, etc) and Bows and regular attacks perform the best against targets with only 1 wound.
The bows offer more utility, with their 24" range and the ability to shoot one unit and charge another.
What's best? Neither and both, it's like comparing an apple to an orange, or a plasmagun to a meltagun.
It depends on how you plan to use them and against what.
I'm personally leaning towards giving bows to mine, but I might very well buy 9 more in the future and give them spears.
So today I went to an event using pure thousand sons sans magnus as a final hurrah before the new codex (als0 my first game with my newly painted thousand sons.)
My list was:
Exalted on disk
Exalted on foot
9 rubrics-soulreaper cannon, 2x flamers
2x 5 rubrics with 3 flamers and flame pistol
20 tzaangor: instrument
19 Tzaangor: instrument
5 Scarab termis-soulreaper and missiles.
2 rhinos.
Long story short I went 3-0 and won the event pretty comfortably.
Played space wolves twice and deathwatch once. Weird field with zero xenos at all.
Beat my first opponent 18-10 then tabled both my other foes.
Looking forward to the codex with 6 skyfires and a shaman on my paint station.
Scarabs + Rubric with flamers + Terminator Sorcerer Warlord deepstriking all together = Warptime with +4 to cast for those Rubric ^^. Costs only a couple CP too. It's a fun combo for sure.
Yea but you’re definitely going to have to pick your spot wisely, if you drop them in front of an army they’re goijg to die quick, make sure you pick a side that will be out of range of most guns and that you can clear out within a reasonable amount.
Nothing will ruin your day more than having those units in combat with chaff
I have been running numbers on brigades, duel detachments, and your standard 7-6 CP lists to get a better handle on our list design post-codex.
Honestly I can see 20 rubrics (2 units of 10, deep strike, rhino, or otherwise) being an almost constant part of my list design. they fullfill a very different role then our Bird-Headed minions and with the ruleset they way it is Scarab Occult come out in a top tier among terminators.
After doing the math; the amount of points we pay for "all is dust" is hardly a premium; its 2 points. TWO POINTS a model.
Though that bar is fairly low with primarily blight kings being among top tier (t5/5++/5 FNP) being ludicrous in terms of survival.
After doing the math; the amount of points we pay for "all is dust" is hardly a premium; its 2 points. TWO POINTS a model.
I assume you're comparing SOT's to regular CSM-terminators.
Techically we pay more as we have -1M.
On the other hand our sergeant is a freaking forcestaff-wielding, inferno-combibolter-toting psyker.
But yeah, SOT's are great. The fact that the model's are some of the finest GW has ever made isn't exactly bad either.
Ya know that fair, also totally forgot about the -1M, the deepstrike often gets them where they are needed most and Matter Crystal and Warp time certainly help.
The stratagem that changes our powers allows us to pick any power from any 3 disciplines so barring an faq it could be a good way to get some demon spells in on an upgraded caster. Infernal gateway on a +2 caster with +2 strat means you’re casting on a 4.
It costs 1 cp and realistically we should be averaging 7-9 cp. Our legion tactic only helps Psykers so once you fill out your mandatory 2 hq and 3 Troops literally everything else can be put into another detachment or soup detachment.
For instance I plan on taking Ahriman a dp and a term sorc. Term sorc and dp are in my pure tson battalion for relics and traits while Ahriman and a renegade commander with 3 brims fill out my other battalion. With 9 cp and plenty of points leftover to fill out whatever you want.
if you're already doing a battalion with three brims, why not bring a couple heralds of tzeentch instead of the pure tax renegade commander? Save yourself wasting a spell slot on gaze of fate on your DP, then grab blue scribes or something as your second HQ and you've got a TZd detachment with bonuses and goodies.
the_scotsman wrote: if you're already doing a battalion with three brims, why not bring a couple heralds of tzeentch instead of the pure tax renegade commander? Save yourself wasting a spell slot on gaze of fate on your DP, then grab blue scribes or something as your second HQ and you've got a TZd detachment with bonuses and goodies.
I was thinking Changeling and a herald, and the horrors in troops slot, the changeling aura, along with his 6++ aura considering how much of our list will have the Daemon keyword.
Probably do cultist + changeling + herlad of tzeentch + 20 horrors.
I dont care about the locus, they are some point fillers that can harass and take losses and push out deepstrikers.
Hey guys, decided to join the legion of Magnus a few months ago and started painting stuff.
Really excited about the codes and here are some of my thoughts about the new stuff:
Concerning CP's and strategems I absolutely think we can do some nasty stuff. With the relic we'll get a few CP for free and you can easily get 9+ in your list. A brigade without Magnus is an option of you don't bring too expensive stuff.
Otherwise just go for two battalion detachments and maybe even a daemon one of you like to bring some.
That's an easy 10 CP + 2-5 extra you'll get from the relic depending on enemy list and your dice rolling.
Since you will just pay 1CP for the 2 best relics and 1 or 3 for the webway infiltration upfront you'll have about 10 CP to spend ingame.
The free reroll with gaze of fate will also help to save CP.
With all the discussion about Codes Tzaangors going on I can just say I think Rubrics and Scarab Ocult Terminators are still a valid option and got a lot better. Personally I like the idea of a list mixed with Rubrics, Scarabs, Exalted sorcerers, some tanks or daemon engines supported by daemon stuff and tzaangors. They are part of their background and everybody should decide for themselve at what ratio to use that units.
Too bad reading the 1000 sons threads means skipping a lot of that stuff while we could make plans for our lord tzeentch and try to make the best with what we got. Kinda like the ork tactic thread btw.
I really love the models so 2 units of rubrics, 2 exalted sorcerers and 1 unit of SOT will be the core for each of my lists.
Don't like using primarchs in small point games so ahriman and a prince will have to do his work which will also leave points for other stuff.
What I thought about for a good starting list uses all the stuff I have at the moment:
Two battalion detachments with 1 CP for the Crystal & the CP relic:
Price of tzeentch with wings (gaze of fate, diabolic strength & treason of tzeentch or infernal gateway or boon of change)
Ahriman (prescience, glamour of tzeentch)
Exalted sorcerer on disc (warptime, death hex)
Exalted sorcerer (doombolt, firestorm of tzeentch)
2 x 10 Rubrics
2 x 10 Cultists (screening and camping)
2 x 10 Tzaangors
Scarab ocult terminators
Tzaangor shaman (prescience / glamour of tzeentch)
6 Enlightened with bow
Thinking about making one of the exalted my worlord for another bonus on important psi powers.
Not 100% sure what psipowers to take with the other free slots. Probably some backup doubles for the most important ones and some of the missing ones. That 13+ powers per turn really is something.
Should be around 1700 points depending on wargear with which I'm generous for my troops.
Similar to some other lists I've seen and should work fine.
Lacks anti tank weapons except mortal wounds and has not that much long range firepower.
Maybe get a daemon detachment with exalted flamers?
Or just take some tanks / dakka forgefiend for long range dakka?
the_scotsman wrote: if you're already doing a battalion with three brims, why not bring a couple heralds of tzeentch instead of the pure tax renegade commander? Save yourself wasting a spell slot on gaze of fate on your DP, then grab blue scribes or something as your second HQ and you've got a TZd detachment with bonuses and goodies.
I was thinking Changeling and a herald, and the horrors in troops slot, the changeling aura, along with his 6++ aura considering how much of our list will have the Daemon keyword.
Probably do cultist + changeling + herlad of tzeentch + 20 horrors.
I dont care about the locus, they are some point fillers that can harass and take losses and push out deepstrikers.
The locus even if it's less impactful is practically free. Brimstones, especially with the locus, are much better for you than cultists (1ppm less, 6++ as opposed to 6+, gets the FNP aura from changeling AND gets the locus). sure, they could just die, but in that instance you're better off losing a 3 point model than a 4 point model anyway, all things considered equal.
That's exactly how I run them (though I dip a few more points for the much more useful chariot herald and an exalted flamer for some anti tank.)
Honestly if you’re going the demon detachment get 2 squads of brims and a big squad of blood letters, put the 3d6 charge relic on them and tie up a big part of their army
Am I getting something wrong or now the Exalted Sorcerer is garbage compared to the Prince? For 23 pts more the Prince hits a lot more and can give the reroll to daemons (and has 4++ rather than 5++ right?)
Secondly, what do you think is the better anti tank choice for TS now? Exalted Flamers?
There is no reason to take an exalted sorceror. Take Ahriman if you want an exalted sorceror or the demon prince or a terminator sorceror.
As for anti tank the best answer is obliterators. Tzeentch demon oblits with flickering fire will murder whatever they look at. If you really want to murder it add vets of the Long war and watch whatever they hit disintegrate as long as you get more than 1 damage.
You can hide exalted flamers but they don’t hit nearly as hard
Soulreaper cannon is 1 per 10 models right now, does it mean that i have to take 11 models in unit to have soulreaper? 10 + 1 soulreaper?
I think Exalted Flamers is the best option right now for TS + Daemons imho. Not great but i do not see other heavy shooting options.
demontalons wrote: There is no reason to take an exalted sorceror. Take Ahriman if you want an exalted sorceror or the demon prince or a terminator sorceror.
As for anti tank the best answer is obliterators. Tzeentch demon oblits with flickering fire will murder whatever they look at. If you really want to murder it add vets of the Long war and watch whatever they hit disintegrate as long as you get more than 1 damage.
You can hide exalted flamers but they don’t hit nearly as hard
If I really wanted to take an Exalted Sorcerer, it'd be for Seer's Bane. Pump him with diabolic strength and you get 5 S12 attacks; not too shabby at all.
The problem is that due to the restrictions on when it can supercharge Seer's Bane is only useful in some matchups...
DarklyDreaming wrote: Am I getting something wrong or now the Exalted Sorcerer is garbage compared to the Prince? For 23 pts more the Prince hits a lot more and can give the reroll to daemons (and has 4++ rather than 5++ right?)
Secondly, what do you think is the better anti tank choice for TS now? Exalted Flamers?
23 points? Daemon prince with gear 156 base, hes 180 with wings. Exalteds are 121 with gear.
So thats a 35 point difference. for a foot exalted to a foot prince.
I am in the camp of exalted being pretty good actually for their points cost, and relatively well pointed for what they bring; however the daemon prince is exceptionally well pointed for what they bring. In the Thousand Sons list especially for an effectively free 4++ and +1 spell to cast with extra spell access.... so taking one is all but an auto-include due to the points cost. That doesn't somehow make exalted "bad"
However, in the time 8th has been out I cant ever actually recall seeing an "on foot" daemon prince, so really the point cost of most metas that I have seen is actually 180. which of course brings a 60 point difference between, or a 40 point difference between the Exalted and the Prince. Which is a substantial difference depending on points cost your playing.
The fact that a baby-sitting exalted can make back its point cost and never even have to move from his deployment zone (thanks to casting distance bonus and also the aura effecting any ranged units dakka-preds, and of course engines that shoot....has its uses. Most definitely...
I think if you want something to hang back and buff a firebase you’re better off allying in a csm lord and demon engines/tanks if that’s what you’re going for.
demontalons wrote: I think if you want something to hang back and buff a firebase you’re better off allying in a csm lord and demon engines/tanks if that’s what you’re going for.
Why for? Id rather have him buff my fire base AND sling hate halfway across the board. He retains self sufficiency without just having a bolter and an aura. even looking at the base rate of a Lord (74 points with no wargear) thats only 47 points for 2 spells cast at a good range.
That lords a complete waste. He sits there with an aura, the extra 50 points means he can actually do something useful and can pick up the slack once you lose some of your other casters. Not to mention hurl a smite or two at incoming models when needed, as well as not being a slouch in CC. added bonus I suppose. Needless to say in my lists I play THOUSAND SONS, not "daemons with splashs of goats" lol, and my exalted will feature heavily once i figure out the best builds for them. LOTS to go through.
Well for a couple of reasons. I don’t feel like pure thousand sons are an army that can build a cheap and effective firebase. We only have tanks and shooty demon engines and they will generally want to stay put, so your exalted won’t be seeing a lot of action and he’s not tough or mean enough to take on much of anything alone.
Exalted also don’t have any built in casting pluses unless you give him the warlord trait. So they’re not as effective as other casters we have.
Thirdly I think thousand sons are an army that is going to want to pick a moment to apply maximum pressure to a spot and go all in. Because of our lack of long range firepower we need to be in the enemies face ASAP casting mortal wounds left and right and having the goats lock things up in CC while the rubrics burn everything else.
With our strata and relics we can put 3 infantry units anywhere on the table that we want, if we take terminators that number just goes up. With warptime we can also almost guaranteed put a unit in combat.
So if we drop a unit of terms, a unit of 20 tzaangors, and a 10 man flamer squad, backed by a demon prince in one spot we can then choose to either throw the gors into combat using warptime and then disengage next turn and allow the flamers to burn or warptime the flamers up and annihilate a squad and use the gors and prince to be the counter assault units.
I’m not saying exalteds are useless I’m just saying you have better options
Interesting points. and I tend to agree in many cases.
I suppose it bares mentioning that my average list for 2k often has 4-5 walkers in it. including contemptors, forgefiend, ranged defiler build, and ranged helbrutes / dreads.
So that is probably why I am partial lol. It just seems useful overall for my army build. but I definitely see your points.
It is a bit strange that exalted have remained so middle of the road, in comparison to our bonkers other HQ options...
- Termi Sorcerer got a great buff, and fills an important niche now.
- Daemon Prince is *crazy* good now.
- Exalted ... saves you 29pts or so, I guess? If you think that +29pts is worth trading in for a DP's: load of health, access to 6 psyker powers, a great keyword for benefiting from buffs and powers, and one of the best CC profiles in the game.
- Or if you want one of the best psykers in the game, spring the twelve or so points for Ahriman, a godlike caster who gets a 3++ if you're that way inclined.
The exalted fails in exactly the same way as his index version did, which is a shame as the models are incredible.
Aye, Exalted Sorcerers are sadly in a position where they don't really offer anything that can't be achieved by our other HQ's (Ahriman, DP's, Terminator Sorcerers.)
The only thing I can think of is as a Seer's Bane deliverysystem.
Mostly I wouldn't trade out a foot exalt for foothriman because I find foothriman in general to be a complete waste, he should always be deployed on his disc so you can maneuver him to where he needs to be at.
and at that point, you are talking about more of an investment.
I think if you're looking from a competitive standpoint, the exalt is definitely very niche, and his niche is as a backline babysitter where points are at a premium and Ahriman is going to be making himself useful elsewhere.
When I tried out my list without the exalt and with disc Ahriman trying to cover his role, I found that Ahriman was too frequently required to pop himself out of his aura range of one or two of my core shooting elements to do things like ensure a target was closest for Smiting, or get in range for Gift (I know Gift is usually trash but I was in the niche situation of being against close-range guard and I had Gaze of Fate rerolls available for the toughness test, it actually worked really well). In essence Ahriman proved to be too valuable to leave in the backline and I was wanting his prescence even farther up on the board. What was lucky for me was that the primary targets I wanted him to focus on (the knight and the scariest guard characters) were coming to him, so it was pretty easy for him to drop doombolts on the knight every turn, etc. but versus a gunline I'd have to move ahriman up along with my chaffline.
So what I was considering was making a list with an Exalt, Ahriman, and a Prince. Ahriman trades out Prescience to the Exalt for Warptime, which I previously had on my jump sorceror but it's such a critical roll it felt risky to put it on a basic caster. Exalt's second power is Glamour, our other good vehicle support spell, which I put on whatever my most valuable tank unit is that game. Then Ahriman takes Doombolt and one other offensive spell, probably Firestorm, to give him the option of a turn throwing pure offense around. The prince takes obligatory Diabolic Strength and possibly Weaver, just to make himself obnoxious to kill. I have allied tzeentch daemons who have nothing better to do than cast Gaze of Fate for me.
That leaves Temporal distortion and boon of mutation as my rubric marine spells, and I generally take either weaver or glamour on my SOT depending on matchup. The former I'll use to heal vehicles, characters, whatever needs topping up, the latter I'll do my best to drop on Ahriman whenever I can get him within 9". I gotta disagree with the assessment that either of those powers are so utterly critical that they must be prioritized on a +caster, to me they're "nice to haves".
I do a CD battalion along with my Tson battalion, because while its not always useful the Locus from the CD detachment is sometimes quite good. From a purely power-gaming standpoint I think brimstones are still flatly superior to cultists, due to points and superior defenses. I don't need or expect my deep strike zoning squad to kill something, but if they survive something and stick around a turn, that's highly worthwhile as I can use them to deny movement again the next turn.
Pinks are a great anti-horde unit, and very solid if you aren't on the Tzaangor Tzrain. They deep strike, you pop Flickering Flames on them with a herald, and then you drop 90 shots (rerolling 1s if you brought a daemon prince) and wound most things on 2s or 3s. Well worth taking a fateskimmer as your herald and giving him Flickering Flames as his second spell slot for the one turn power play. But that's only if you want to actually invest in the CD detachment. 3 brim squads, a basic herald, and changeling is still solid for 250-odd points that gets you 3cp, especially if you want Magnus because Changeling is highly useful in keeping him alive.
and at that point, you are talking about more of an investment.
Ahriman on disc is 25 pts more than an Exalted on disc, and for those 25 pts you gain: +1 invuln, a better weapon, +1 to cast, +1 power, +1 manifest and +2 denies.
Not that much of an investment and well worth it imo.
On foot it's a measly +10 points, but then as you say, one shouldn't really run Ahriman on foot.
You cant use boon of mutation on ahriman if you got him the disk though.
So, if anything, the arguement for foot exalted/ahriman is that they can get boons. and some boons are just disgustingly powerful.
The movement boon, being a "lame" one is basically half a disk for free.
the +1 casting (and the "choose any" who is basically the same) is freakishly good. and its 11/36 of the possibilities without taking rerolls into account.
The FnP and -1 to hit are both nifty defensive layers, that stack.
+1T, +1W are not bad at keeping yourself alive either.
Naturally turning into a prince aint half bad if you are an exalted. a bit more questionable if you are ahriman, and maybe not as great for well equipped terminators, and naturally you have to have a reroll at hand to avoid spawning
But overall, casting this on your termi/foothriman/footxlated is rather powerful
And you can't do it if you don't have one.
guys quick question: as I m currently building a thousand son army, is it worth to run chaos terminators and is it possibile to place them in the same detachment of TS or one will loose the TS chapter tactics (or whatever is called lol?).
Prescience and warp time on them seems nasty enough for me what do you think?
and at that point, you are talking about more of an investment.
Ahriman on disc is 25 pts more than an Exalted on disc, and for those 25 pts you gain: +1 invuln, a better weapon, +1 to cast, +1 power, +1 manifest and +2 denies.
Not that much of an investment and well worth it imo.
On foot it's a measly +10 points, but then as you say, one shouldn't really run Ahriman on foot.
I'm not talking about Ahriman on disc vs exalt on disc. I would never use an exalt on disc unless I'm just playing a fun "kabal of sorcerors" list (though I am planning on doing that at some point since it'll be fun). I'm talking exalt on foot vs Ahriman on Disc, which is 45 points more.
And I also think I've mentioned that if I could take unlimited ahrimen, I would be doing that, but I can't. I get one Ahriman, and I'd rather have him making use of all those great bonuses by being up with the rest of my army, rather than having him shackled to my preds/hellforged dreads/forgefiends/etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BoomWolf wrote: You cant use boon of mutation on ahriman if you got him the disk though.
So, if anything, the arguement for foot exalted/ahriman is that they can get boons. and some boons are just disgustingly powerful.
The movement boon, being a "lame" one is basically half a disk for free.
the +1 casting (and the "choose any" who is basically the same) is freakishly good. and its 11/36 of the possibilities without taking rerolls into account.
The FnP and -1 to hit are both nifty defensive layers, that stack.
+1T, +1W are not bad at keeping yourself alive either.
Naturally turning into a prince aint half bad if you are an exalted. a bit more questionable if you are ahriman, and maybe not as great for well equipped terminators, and naturally you have to have a reroll at hand to avoid spawning
But overall, casting this on your termi/foothriman/footxlated is rather powerful
And you can't do it if you don't have one.
I'd do it on a terminator though. Or a jump sorc. either of those before an exalt, just because of their mobility/starting point for combat stats.
Good point though, and something I'd definitely be making use of if I ran a Combat Sorceror list just for giggles.
The combat sorc list has a simple setup:
1) Take Ahriman
2) Take termies, jumps, and exalts on discs
3) everyone gets a different offensive power and smite, to allow you to unleash a swagtastic fullisade of psychic might on someone
4) hope that your opponent brought an elite list....
I just want to roll up with like 3 disc exalted sorcerors and Ahriman and go "Smite! Gaze! Smite! Gift! Smite! Firestorm! Smite! Doombolt!"
Guyver 3 wrote: Also infernal gateway has gone from a why would you ever to an auto take!
Magnus
Exaulted and Ahriman on discs
Daemon herald on disc
Use locus of conjugation stratagem to reroll psy tests
Cabal stratagem on Magnus and get him to cast infernal gateway with +4 to cast
Infernal gateway range now range 18” 9” range of effect d3 mortal on every unit and d6 on an 8+
Add gaze of fate or command rolls if the rolls are low
Watch the world burn...
....For two weeks until the FAQ comes out.
I don't know about you, but I've already ebayed the models for a list revolving around this strategy, I figure there's no chance at all that GW doesn't clarify that the 3" range of the AOE doesn't go to 9" with the tsons chapter tactic.
Guyver 3 wrote: Also infernal gateway has gone from a why would you ever to an auto take!
Magnus
Exaulted and Ahriman on discs
Daemon herald on disc
Use locus of conjugation stratagem to reroll psy tests
Cabal stratagem on Magnus and get him to cast infernal gateway with +4 to cast
Infernal gateway range now range 18” 9” range of effect d3 mortal on every unit and d6 on an 8+
Add gaze of fate or command rolls if the rolls are low
Watch the world burn...
....For two weeks until the FAQ comes out.
I don't know about you, but I've already ebayed the models for a list revolving around this strategy, I figure there's no chance at all that GW doesn't clarify that the 3" range of the AOE doesn't go to 9" with the tsons chapter tactic.
But what a week it’ll be...
I have the models so I’m just itching to drop this bomb on someone!
Also not forgetting magnus’ smite and the other mortal wound spells cast by ahriman, herald and exaulted sorcerer man that’s allot of mortal wounds at range 18-24
Yeah, Ahriman is pretty much better in every way. The reason to take exalts is pretty much "you can only have one ahriman." stuff like access to relics, choice of warlord trait, etc are kind of consolation prizes.
I'd take an exalt one of two ways:
1) The way he actually provides something compelling to an army: i've already got ahriman, I want a gunline babysitter with a +hit aura. I take an exalt, make him the warlord, give him +1 to power casts, and give him the CP stealing relic. I now have a warlord who is unlikely to die and supports my gunline units with prescience and glamour just as reliably as ahriman, at a lower cost, and I still get to have Ahriman using all his myriad bonuses elsewhere on the battlefield.
2) The "polish a turd because I like the model" way: on a disc, Seer's Bane, +1 to cast trait. Now he's ahriman's smashy baby brother! You get two beatstick casters with bonuses to cast. Note that there is objectively no reason to take this option over a daemon prince or termie sorc other than wanting to use the model, unlike option 1.
I think the only reason to take an exaulted over a daemon price is if you are really tight on points otherwise a dp will nearly always be a better choice,
For me Giving reroll 1’s and better cc ability give the exaulted an edge over basic or terminator sorcerers though!
I'm not super hyped for Ahriman's 3++ warlord trait because hopefully (most of the time) he will be bubblewrapped and the extra 1++ isn't going to make huge difference if your opponent brought 10 sniper squads and decides he wants to see him burn. (ok slight edit: ahriman does reroll 1's which is pimp, better than I thought but not sold on this being an auto-include necessarily).
Cross comparing to the daemon codex and other CSM choices it is likely better to roll a different warlod trait (in general). For example the extra 1++ from robe makes a much bigger difference on LoC (more wounds and can't hide) than on ahriman. Just thinking an aura may be better.
From what I am seeing the pink horrors do not have the thousand sons keyword/faction word (forget the exact terminology, but TLDR it is not anywhere on thier datasheet). If a batallion includes pink horrors (as they are in the codex) is it still considered Thousand sons? Sorry for the stupid question...
To be honest I’d rather spam boon on a basic sorcerer in a tson unit it’ll hurt allot less turning him into a spawn and you gain so much more if he becomes a dp
Automatically Appended Next Post: Rereading boon it’s much better than I thought as the most average(7) roll will let you pick no3-11
Guyver 3 wrote: Also infernal gateway has gone from a why would you ever to an auto take!
Magnus
Exaulted and Ahriman on discs
Daemon herald on disc
Use locus of conjugation stratagem to reroll psy tests
Cabal stratagem on Magnus and get him to cast infernal gateway with +4 to cast
Infernal gateway range now range 18” 9” range of effect d3 mortal on every unit and d6 on an 8+
Add gaze of fate or command rolls if the rolls are low
Watch the world burn...
....For two weeks until the FAQ comes out.
I don't know about you, but I've already ebayed the models for a list revolving around this strategy, I figure there's no chance at all that GW doesn't clarify that the 3" range of the AOE doesn't go to 9" with the tsons chapter tactic.
I dont see how this works at all, the effect and range of a spell are two different things. The range is only used on the initial cast. I don't see how you get a 9" treason.
Guyver 3 wrote: Also infernal gateway has gone from a why would you ever to an auto take!
Magnus
Exaulted and Ahriman on discs
Daemon herald on disc
Use locus of conjugation stratagem to reroll psy tests
Cabal stratagem on Magnus and get him to cast infernal gateway with +4 to cast
Infernal gateway range now range 18” 9” range of effect d3 mortal on every unit and d6 on an 8+
Add gaze of fate or command rolls if the rolls are low
Watch the world burn...
....For two weeks until the FAQ comes out.
I don't know about you, but I've already ebayed the models for a list revolving around this strategy, I figure there's no chance at all that GW doesn't clarify that the 3" range of the AOE doesn't go to 9" with the tsons chapter tactic.
I dont see how this works at all, the effect and range of a spell are two different things. The range is only used on the initial cast. I don't see how you get a 9" treason.
Yup, what he said. The range of the spell is a very clear term. Now if the spell is a nova, then it will get extended by 6". But this is not the case for treason.
Anyway new idea. Are spawn worth it now with the stratagem? I’ve got about 100 points and can either put in some spawn which when buffer appropriately can dish out a lot of pain OR switch a cultist unit for a 16 man unit of tzaangors.
BoomWolf wrote: You cant use boon of mutation on ahriman if you got him the disk though.
So, if anything, the arguement for foot exalted/ahriman is that they can get boons. and some boons are just disgustingly powerful.
The movement boon, being a "lame" one is basically half a disk for free.
the +1 casting (and the "choose any" who is basically the same) is freakishly good. and its 11/36 of the possibilities without taking rerolls into account.
The FnP and -1 to hit are both nifty defensive layers, that stack.
+1T, +1W are not bad at keeping yourself alive either.
Naturally turning into a prince aint half bad if you are an exalted. a bit more questionable if you are ahriman, and maybe not as great for well equipped terminators, and naturally you have to have a reroll at hand to avoid spawning
But overall, casting this on your termi/foothriman/footxlated is rather powerful
And you can't do it if you don't have one.
+1 to all saves, which would give Ahriman a 2+ invul
BoomWolf wrote: You cant use boon of mutation on ahriman if you got him the disk though.
So, if anything, the arguement for foot exalted/ahriman is that they can get boons. and some boons are just disgustingly powerful.
The movement boon, being a "lame" one is basically half a disk for free.
the +1 casting (and the "choose any" who is basically the same) is freakishly good. and its 11/36 of the possibilities without taking rerolls into account.
The FnP and -1 to hit are both nifty defensive layers, that stack.
+1T, +1W are not bad at keeping yourself alive either.
Naturally turning into a prince aint half bad if you are an exalted. a bit more questionable if you are ahriman, and maybe not as great for well equipped terminators, and naturally you have to have a reroll at hand to avoid spawning
But overall, casting this on your termi/foothriman/footxlated is rather powerful
And you can't do it if you don't have one.
+1 to all saves, which would give Ahriman a 2+ invul
Hmm... If Boon of Mutation turns your (for example) Helm of the Third Eye-wearing Exalted Sorcerer into a chaos spawn, you lose access to the relic right? What about if he turns into a daemon prince, who would still be a valid choice for the relic?
He technically speaking doesn't turn, you get a new unit and remove the old one.
There is no way to transfer over relics-so don't put the helm of the dude you are booning. (you can put the crystal if you plan to use it right away though, being single-use and all)
BoomWolf wrote: You cant use boon of mutation on ahriman if you got him the disk though.
So, if anything, the arguement for foot exalted/ahriman is that they can get boons. and some boons are just disgustingly powerful.
The movement boon, being a "lame" one is basically half a disk for free.
the +1 casting (and the "choose any" who is basically the same) is freakishly good. and its 11/36 of the possibilities without taking rerolls into account.
The FnP and -1 to hit are both nifty defensive layers, that stack.
+1T, +1W are not bad at keeping yourself alive either.
Naturally turning into a prince aint half bad if you are an exalted. a bit more questionable if you are ahriman, and maybe not as great for well equipped terminators, and naturally you have to have a reroll at hand to avoid spawning
But overall, casting this on your termi/foothriman/footxlated is rather powerful
And you can't do it if you don't have one.
+1 to all saves, which would give Ahriman a 2+ invul
Almost positive it caps at 3++
I don't think it does because you have to have a spell to get to a 3+, but as some one pointed out +1 to armor isn't on our list but +1 to casting is which is better imho. You could have Ahriman, a Termie sorcerer as warlord both of them casting with +2 on the 5 spells they can cast.
BoomWolf wrote: Well, the termi sorcerer only casts on a 2+ on his first spell as the familiar only boosts the first spell, but yea that's the just of it.
+1 casting is insane, and only non-daemon casters get to roll the dice.
If you make him your warlord and give him the +1 casting trait he can get a +3 on his fisrt cast and +2 on the rest if you can land a 7
That’s a really big if. Personally it’s not worth strategizing for it orhonestly even selecting as a power. Even with Ahriman a dp and a term sorceror with +1 pay test warlord trait that’s only 7 spells, 1 of which will have a +2 to cast and 4 a +1 2 will get no bonus unless you use a stratagem. Depending on how many rubrics you use that number can go up of course but they’re risky if they perils and you don’t have a reroll available.
I believe you should use your 1 and 2w casters as last resort, because when they blow it’s not pretty. Whereas if one of your main casters perils you can still heal them.
i just received the rubrics I orderered and I'm having trouble with the decal: I'm unable to find the decal which, on the front box, has been attached to the right shoulder. I even tried to look after thousand sons transfer sheet available at forgeworld but I couldn't find the symbol which matches. Can you please help me out? The marine I'm referring to is the one just behind the sorcerer on the left (he s carrying the warpflamer).
Moreover, the decals over the tabard are different from the one you get inside the box. again does anybody know where can I get these aswell?
i just received the rubrics I orderered and I'm having trouble with the decal: I'm unable to find the decal which, on the front box, has been attached to the right shoulder. I even tried to look after thousand sons transfer sheet available at forgeworld but I couldn't find the symbol which matches. Can you please help me out? The marine I'm referring to is the one just behind the sorcerer on the left (he s carrying the warpflamer).
Moreover, the decals over the tabard are different from the one you get inside the box. again does anybody know where can I get these aswell?
Many thanks,
Spado
Its painted on, goto warhammer tv and look for it, they have a guide.
The best stratagem is the Chaos familiar that gives you the choice of choosing across the 19spells for a sergeant sorcerer in rubric squad or scarab each turn
i just received the rubrics I orderered and I'm having trouble with the decal: I'm unable to find the decal which, on the front box, has been attached to the right shoulder. I even tried to look after thousand sons transfer sheet available at forgeworld but I couldn't find the symbol which matches. Can you please help me out? The marine I'm referring to is the one just behind the sorcerer on the left (he s carrying the warpflamer).
Moreover, the decals over the tabard are different from the one you get inside the box. again does anybody know where can I get these aswell?
Many thanks,
Spado
Its painted on, goto warhammer tv and look for it, they have a guide.
Both the tabard and the one on the right shoulder? Well f. me then lol xD
Guyver 3 wrote: Also infernal gateway has gone from a why would you ever to an auto take!
Magnus
Exaulted and Ahriman on discs
Daemon herald on disc
Use locus of conjugation stratagem to reroll psy tests
Cabal stratagem on Magnus and get him to cast infernal gateway with +4 to cast
Infernal gateway range now range 18” 9” range of effect d3 mortal on every unit and d6 on an 8+
Add gaze of fate or command rolls if the rolls are low
Watch the world burn...
....For two weeks until the FAQ comes out.
I don't know about you, but I've already ebayed the models for a list revolving around this strategy, I figure there's no chance at all that GW doesn't clarify that the 3" range of the AOE doesn't go to 9" with the tsons chapter tactic.
I dont see how this works at all, the effect and range of a spell are two different things. The range is only used on the initial cast. I don't see how you get a 9" treason.
Yup, what he said. The range of the spell is a very clear term. Now if the spell is a nova, then it will get extended by 6". But this is not the case for treason.
Before I get harsh replies I’d like to say that this needs an faq and I think it is raw over rai but..
Now to the argument.
Interestingly the tsons bonus says the ranges of spells not range,
At the moment Range is not defined at any point in the 8th edition psychic rules on the most basic level it says find the casting number roll 2d6 and do what the card says,
Range is also not defined in infernal gateway (in fact you’ll struggle to find the word range in most psychic powers) it states pick a model “within” 12” then it states that unit any unit “within” 3” takes a hit.
Are they not both ranges? The same word is used to describe both distances in game terms so are they not the same?
range is the distance between 2 points? Wether it’s the range of the power or the range of the effect.
Now I’m not saying it’s not gonna be faq’d and it clearly needs clarification but RAW the tsons bonus increases both.
demontalons wrote: That’s a really big if. Personally it’s not worth strategizing for it orhonestly even selecting as a power. Even with Ahriman a dp and a term sorceror with +1 pay test warlord trait that’s only 7 spells, 1 of which will have a +2 to cast and 4 a +1 2 will get no bonus unless you use a stratagem. Depending on how many rubrics you use that number can go up of course but they’re risky if they perils and you don’t have a reroll available.
I believe you should use your 1 and 2w casters as last resort, because when they blow it’s not pretty. Whereas if one of your main casters perils you can still heal them.
tbh I think you're giving up a lot of reward for the risk of losing a command point/a couple rubrics. The games I've used them in so far, my rubric casters have been pretty valuable taking exactly the kind of spells you wouldn't want to bother with on your other casters, or in the case of deep striking squads, taking a spell so you don't have to send along a sorceror chaser just to buff them.
I had my rubrics casting Temporal Distortion (which one turn healed Ahriman two wounds he'd received from snipers which ended up saving him the next turn, and another took a predator from first bracket to above half HP) and the second squad with a backup cast of Glamour which was helpful from turn 2 onward because my other full sorc who had that got sniped.
On average, if you have 3 rubric casters tossing spells every turn of a 6-turn game, you'll expect to see exactly one peril the whole game (5.5% chance per cast). Casting them first and holding your CP or Gaze reroll allows you to reduce the risk of periling by 83%.
Temporal Distortion and Boon are the support powers I'd take on them and pretty much no other caster, and Weaver and Glamour are the best if you want them to act as insurance casters of important spells.
Guyver 3 wrote: Also infernal gateway has gone from a why would you ever to an auto take!
Magnus
Exaulted and Ahriman on discs
Daemon herald on disc
Use locus of conjugation stratagem to reroll psy tests
Cabal stratagem on Magnus and get him to cast infernal gateway with +4 to cast
Infernal gateway range now range 18” 9” range of effect d3 mortal on every unit and d6 on an 8+
Add gaze of fate or command rolls if the rolls are low
Watch the world burn...
....For two weeks until the FAQ comes out.
I don't know about you, but I've already ebayed the models for a list revolving around this strategy, I figure there's no chance at all that GW doesn't clarify that the 3" range of the AOE doesn't go to 9" with the tsons chapter tactic.
I dont see how this works at all, the effect and range of a spell are two different things. The range is only used on the initial cast. I don't see how you get a 9" treason.
Yup, what he said. The range of the spell is a very clear term. Now if the spell is a nova, then it will get extended by 6". But this is not the case for treason.
Before I get harsh replies I’d like to say that this needs an faq and I think it is raw over rai but..
Now to the argument.
Interestingly the tsons bonus says the ranges of spells not range,
At the moment Range is not defined at any point in the 8th edition psychic rules on the most basic level it says find the casting number roll 2d6 and do what the card says,
Range is also not defined in infernal gateway (in fact you’ll struggle to find the word range in most psychic powers) it states pick a model “within” 12” then it states that unit any unit “within” 3” takes a hit.
Are they not both ranges? The same word is used to describe both distances in game terms so are they not the same?
range is the distance between 2 points? Wether it’s the range of the power or the range of the effect.
Now I’m not saying it’s not gonna be faq’d and it clearly needs clarification but RAW the tsons bonus increases both.
Don’t hate me I didn’t write the rules...
It's also equally valid to argue that
A) Range is a value that is undefined for the purposes of the psychic phase. Therefore an undefined value is increased by 6", and the Tsons tactic has no in-game effect.
B) "Range" also refers to a range of VALUES (Webster, definition 1, "Range" as noun, "the area of variation between upper and lower limits on a particular scale.") so where abbreviations like "D3" actually refers to a RANGE of values between 1 and 3 to be randomly determined by the player, the Thousand Sons doctrine increases all variable damage spells by 6 on both the low and high end of the range. A D3 damage spell now does between 7 and 10 damage.
Both these are as valid as
C) "Range" is undefined with respect to the psychic phase, therefore it refers to any distance in inches that appears in the spell text. Any distance in inches that appears in the spell text cast by a Thousand Sons psyker is increased by 6".
Which is why until a FAQ is issued to resolve the legal argument you should probably refer to the common sense interpretation, "range is undefined with respect to the psychic phase, so we should use the definition given in for the shooting phase, which is the maximum distance between the firing model and the target."
That's just my opinion and I'm not trying to hate on you or anything, I agree that as currently written "C" is valid as well as "A" (B is mostly just a joke). Arguing for any of the three is likely to result in pretty much nothing but anger.
Automatically Appended Next Post: let's talk "what is a more useful auxiliary" - Pink Horrors vs Tzaangors.
I'd like to know what peoples' opinions are on the pros and cons of including either of these units in a Thousand Sons army as a horde-clearing auxiliary. This is assuming that they are being used to support a more elite gunline/psyker army structure. The way I'm thinking of taking them is pretty similar.
-30 models
-deep striking thru a stratagem
-their offensive output is being used to clear out chaff, their defensive output is being used to impede progress to your valuable shooting units and tie up shooters.
-+1 to charges with an instrument
We have Tzaangors with blades, Tzaangors with AP/CS, and pink horrors just grooblin' at ya with their flames and their heavy metal/surfing hand signals. They come in at the exact same point cost if you leave the Icon off the horrors (I always take it purely for fun/cool model but it's probably not optimal, an opponent will always be focusing fire to take out a chunk of them if their back isnt totally broken)
Bladegors:
-Output 2 WS3+ S4 AP-1 attacks each
-T4 5++ body
-Can benefit from Warptime, Prescience, Glamour, Weaver for psychic powers
-1CP to deep strike, 2CP to attack again
-Can get +1 to hit aura from Shaman, Reroll 1s to hit aura from Tsons modelsl or Daemon Prince
Chaingors
-Output 3 WS3+ S4 AP- attacks and 1 BS4+ 12" S3 AP- shooting attack
-See above for all other benefits
Pink Horrors
-Output 3 S3 AP- shooting attacks that benefit from Strength buffs and 1 S3 AP- melee attack
-T3 4++ body
-Benefit from Flickering Flames, Boon of Change
-Can spend 2CP to get a 3++ (Warp Surge) and can spend 1CP to gain a single free cast of Firestorm from their banner bearer.
-Locus of Trickery gives them -1 to hit in melee roughly 25% of the time vs WS4+, 50% of the time vs WS3+.
-Get a Strength+1 aura from all heralds, Reroll hit rolls of 1 aura from Demon Princes, and reroll wound rolls of 1 if you take the warlord trait that gives that aura.
Both are also effected by the mutilath so either bonus strength or +1 ap on the Tzaangors and +1st on the horrors
St5 horrors with reroll 1’s to hit and wound with 90 shots +1 to wound so they are wounding anything in the game on 5+, t6-9 on 4+ t5 on 3+ and anything else on 2’s! No ap but weight of dice will kill most things!
For the purposes of my comparison, I'm not really factoring the mutalith because it's such a huge investment for something that will help 1-2 units in my army. An HQ buffer for the horrors gets me 2/5ths of the way to a 2nd battalion detachment, wheras a Tzaangor Shaman doesn't - but IMO the Tzaangors are superior sans buffer units because of their fight twice stratagem.
I do think the fact that the horrors throw their punches largely in shooting is a big deal though. It allows you to guarantee you'll get use out of them, as there's no chance you'll lose out on all the damage by flubbing the charge/warptime.
The biggest question for me is what to take with that second HQ slot in the daemon detachment if I want to go that route. Two squads of brims are a no brainer for the other two troops. But then a second herald seems low-value, changeling seems OK but only really to guard your Tsons daemon units (Disc guys and magnus), and the LOC seems too pricy.
the_scotsman wrote: For the purposes of my comparison, I'm not really factoring the mutalith because it's such a huge investment for something that will help 1-2 units in my army. An HQ buffer for the horrors gets me 2/5ths of the way to a 2nd battalion detachment, wheras a Tzaangor Shaman doesn't - but IMO the Tzaangors are superior sans buffer units because of their fight twice stratagem.
I do think the fact that the horrors throw their punches largely in shooting is a big deal though. It allows you to guarantee you'll get use out of them, as there's no chance you'll lose out on all the damage by flubbing the charge/warptime.
The biggest question for me is what to take with that second HQ slot in the daemon detachment if I want to go that route. Two squads of brims are a no brainer for the other two troops. But then a second herald seems low-value, changeling seems OK but only really to guard your Tsons daemon units (Disc guys and magnus), and the LOC seems too pricy.
Fate skimmer
Blue scribes
30 pinks
10 brimstone
10 brimstone
511 points for a useful battalion
I rate the blue scribes -1 to cast and absorbing enemy spells is nice and if you take him with a fate skimmer and the chanting horrors upgrade it’s a bubble of -2 to cast which works more often than you think! He also auto comes with the reroll 1’s to wound if you make him the warlord, his auto cast spell is often good
Daedalus81 wrote: Looks like Icon of Flame is down to 5 points? That seems handy.
Good, might consider taking them now.
At 10 points I'd never bother with them. You need 6 to average 1 MS per turn. 60 pts to average 1 mortal wound on something a turn? Pass.
At 30 points however...I might just take them.
Remember that’s only if you’re within 12 inches all game. Even at 5 pts I feel like we can spend it on better things.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Spado I’ve had good luck giving my contemptor a soul burner and a butcher cannon. Gives you a good mix of shooty and cc. Be aware though they can die pretty easily if you don’t have a good target saturation for them
demontalons wrote: Remember that’s only if you’re within 12 inches all game. Even at 5 pts I feel like we can spend it on better things.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Spado I’ve had good luck giving my contemptor a soul burner and a butcher cannon. Gives you a good mix of shooty and cc. Be aware though they can die pretty easily if you don’t have a good target saturation for them
Cheers for the answer: i didnt notice that the soul burner allowed you to keep the claw that is actually nasty! What do you think about the C-beam? I honestly never heard about it but I was like: what the hell? This is amazing or am I missing something?
What weapon would you put on this guy? Is it worth to take it for the heavy long range firepower or do rubric marines have better options?
Cheers,
Spado
I use the Osiron instead. Dual C-beams and I park him as far away from their heavy weapons as possible, which is feasible with a 72" range. He does need guards still.
pismakron wrote: Do people here run min-squad of rubrics in rhinos?
I used to, but now that min squads can't take soulreapers I don't take them at all.
Ditto im playing with the idea of 2 min squads with 3 flamers each and using them to just be a thorn in the side or no warp flamers to be rear guard to prevent deepstirkes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arachnofiend wrote:
pismakron wrote: Do people here run min-squad of rubrics in rhinos?
I used to, but now that min squads can't take soulreapers I don't take them at all.
demontalons wrote:Pretty sure it will be faq’ed to let them use it again.
BoomWolf wrote:Either than, or FAQ the CSM not to be able to.
They are well aware of the 1 in 10 situation.
Last Paragraph of the section on Inferno Boltguns.
"A unit of 10 can also take a soulreaper cannon. If you have Rubric Marines with inferno bolters, always take the soulreaper cannon – it hurts all the same targets your bolters do, but better, and with the same range, so it’s always contributing to the squad’s firepower."
Daedalus81 wrote: Looks like Icon of Flame is down to 5 points? That seems handy.
Good, might consider taking them now.
At 10 points I'd never bother with them. You need 6 to average 1 MS per turn. 60 pts to average 1 mortal wound on something a turn? Pass.
At 30 points however...I might just take them.
The only time they are worth running is when your bringing large numbers of min squad cultists and Tzaangors, you only have a 66% chance at getting 1 wound with 6 and that is while your within 12 and you can't even pick where it comes from you have to roll for each one, but with like 6 cultist Squads and 6 Tzaangor Squads you get 12 dice you have just shy of a 90% chance of getting 1 and like 80% of getting 2 which is better.
Now if they had the same mechanic except you got to pick, where the MW manifested it might be worth taking because you could put the wound on say a heavy weapons or a Special weapons squad rather then it hitting conscripts.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: My money is on them keeping it the same on both ends.
Csm rubrics are not the same as tson rubrics. Tsons need more to get the Soulreaper but their asp sorcerer is cheaper and can actually cast stuff.
If they change csm asp sorcerer to match tson but keep the 1 in 5 then that will be a sour point.
It would be a sour point. Problem is its more effective to run min squads with Soul Reapers then pay the same amount for a Sorc that has little to no real spell options.
DP as warlord is a strong choice for sure although if going with him I think you either go for the +1 inv or the run and charge and focus more on combat.
I think it's amazing how many viable warlord traits there are for our Daemon Princes.
I can see myself opting for either +1 to cast, advance+charge /w reroll, +1 invuln or -1 Damage taken (although +1 invuln is probably better most of the time.)
MinscS2 wrote: I think it's amazing how many viable warlord traits there are for our Daemon Princes.
I can see myself opting for either +1 to cast, advance+charge /w reroll, +1 invuln or -1 Damage taken (although +1 invuln is probably better most of the time.)
I am at a loss why would you be happy about that?
TS are led by Sorcerers not DPs, if anything there should be 1 or 2 that the DP can benefit from.
MinscS2 wrote: I think it's amazing how many viable warlord traits there are for our Daemon Princes.
I can see myself opting for either +1 to cast, advance+charge /w reroll, +1 invuln or -1 Damage taken (although +1 invuln is probably better most of the time.)
It's a tough call honestly, I actually think the casting bonus might make the most sense. The DP isn't like magnus, they can use troops to keep from getting gunned down so durability is less an issue, and keeping behind said screen also makes the advance+charge's extra speed less useful.
I'll run my Daemon Prince with +1 Invulnerable save.
Our Daemon Prince is a psychic monster, but he's also a murder machine in close combat. And that's where I want him, eventually. So far, my Daemon Prince has never been killed by small arms fire. It's always been because I can't roll 5++. Going from 5++ to 3++ makes him twice as durable. Needless to say, it's going to be a pain for anyone to deal with.
And being able to heal him with Temporal Distorsion is the icing on the cake really.......
(just for the record, I've seen a Space Marine character with a Stormshield hold a Bloodthirster in CC for 3 fight phases last week... 3++ saves are crazy).
I don't think any other army matches us in just how many of the warlord traits are viable.
And given that traits, like spells, are not chosen during list-building-we have an added layer of flexibility to match our enemies.
The problem is not that we don't have traits fitting our other "sorcerer-class" hqs, its that they are just bad in comparison to the princes as the princes are borderline OP, with ahriman being the sole exception but he is stuck with a trait other than he wants.
Looking at non-prince warlord, who are our options?
Ahriman-waste of a trait to have 3++ on a hidden caster.
Magnus-got one of the few poor traits.
Any sorcerer type just wants magistar, as it's that much better for him.
The only option I'm seeing, is either a prince for flexible choices, or a terminator sorcerer to get a power spell off with familiar+magistar
Only problem I have with a prince warlord is how much of a suicide bomb my prince often is. I very rarely end up in a situation where I don't want the prince to for across the board and start whacking some vehicle with S9 diabolic attacks.
kaintxu wrote: Is there any recap of all the leaks? Where can I find it?
Most of it is available on page 19 or 20 on the rumor thread. You'll find WL traits, relics, stratagems there. Psychic powers are scattered about, unfortunately.
kaintxu wrote: Is there any recap of all the leaks? Where can I find it?
Most of it is available on page 19 or 20 on the rumor thread. You'll find WL traits, relics, stratagems there. Psychic powers are scattered about, unfortunately.
So, the main questions that needs to be asked about Rubric Marines is:
Squad size?
In rhino, webway or foot?
Flamers, soulreaper cannon, both or neither?
What powers for the Boss Nob?
Are they viable at all, at 20 points per model?
Squad size?
In rhino, webway or foot?
Flamers, soulreaper cannon, both or neither?
What powers for the Boss Nob?
Are they viable at all, at 20 points per model?
Seeing as our Rubrics can't take a Soulreaper Cannon below 10, I'd say running 5 of them is only viable with Warpflamers now.
Are they viable at all ? Well, I'd say no, but other people swear by them. You may have noticed however that not a single winning list in any major tournament since 8th edition came out had Rubrics in it...
pismakron wrote: So, the main questions that needs to be asked about Rubric Marines is:
Squad size?
In rhino, webway or foot?
Flamers, soulreaper cannon, both or neither?
What powers for the Boss Nob?
Are they viable at all, at 20 points per model?
1) 5, 10, or 20. See below
2) Yes, yes, no. In my opinion Rubrics should never be exposed to incoming fire turn 1 when you can either have them in rhinos (which are actually properly priced to hold a ~200 point squad, and are much better in Thousand Sons than any other codex thanks to CSM double combis+Warpflame Gargoyles), or in a Land Raider (if you happen to be bringing one, I think between Prescience, Glamour and Weaver we've got a pretty solid setup for one and if you've got one you might as well protect a rubric squad with it). I think they're not terrible with the deep strike strat, but they're always going to be second fiddle to Tzaangors using that and SOTs just being SOTs. the DS strat is a good one to use for rubrics if you want to run rubrics.
3) 5 with flamers, 10 with 1 cannon, 20 with 2 cannons deep striking. I think those are the three ways I like rubrics at present. With the sorceror improved, the 5 flamer weapons in a rhino loadout is pretty solid (I'd not put 2 squads in that rhino though just to ensure you're not putting loads more points in one transport and creating an easy target). 10 with a reaper is the other obvious rhino choice, better at operating as a midrange unit. If you're setting up around a screen+long range gunline (predators, horror screen, land raider, shootbrutes/contemptors, etc) then I'd lean towards the 10-squad. If you're creating an army that's going to have more high risk/high reward elements like deep striking tzaangor blobs, wing princes, warptiming daemon engines, etc, then the flamer squad is good to support that.
4) For a squad that's going to be out in the open, in cover, near the gunline shooting at 24" range primarily (the 10 man squads from above) I'd take Boon of Mutation and Temporal Distortion on them. All those powers are good to cast every turn (you should expect to have to reroll a peril about once every two games, if you have a reason to cast both of these every turn). buff up a backline caster aiming for the +cast and +move boosts, and repair your damaged vehicles and wounded characters. If you're going for the more assault focused squads, you can go one of two routes. Route one would be increasing the squad's firepower a bit with Firestorm, route two would be picking up a backup cast of Glamour in case nobody is nearby to get it on them. I'd say go for route 1 with the 5 man flamer squads, route 2 with a big deep strike blob who will mostly be massively overkilling things anyway.
5) Depends on your definition of viable in my opinion. in tournament play, where everyones only going to be taking the best possible units, I think the most likely setup for a thousand sons battalion is a 30-blob of tzaangors and 2 10-man cultists. If we see rubrics, we'll see SOTs, as they deep strike natively and come with a modicum of melee power. In normal play, where anything above about the bottom 50% is generally OK to built into your army, properly set up rubric squads will be fine and you can answer questions like "why would i take rubrics when I can take very slightly better SOTs" with "because I like Rubrics". Sots have better offense, and don't spend CPs to deep strike, but die more quickly to anti-elite weaponry and don't get obsec/fill you troop slots. I don't think they'll get totally shoved out by tzaangors, because I think the effectiveness of tzaangors drops off enormously after the first 30-blob that you warptime into combat and double-tap with. I think they'll get shoved out by cultists, like all CSM troop choices currently are.
For my army I’m doing a squad of 10 with flamers in the webway, asp sorc will get a power that’s low to cast.
Viable? Yes if you have a plan for them. I think the bolter rubrics aren’t worth it because you can get better firepower from say noise marines and noise marines have a stratagem increasing their firepower.
I think flamers are the way to go because if properly supported they force your opponent to act on them. 10 flamers left alone will start deleting infantry units. They are expensive but whatever charges them will have to try from outside of 9 inches or risk taking a lot of casualties. Add to that a squad of terms and a big unit of cultists or tzaangors with a DP and all of a sudden you have threat overload.
And that’s not counting what the rest of your army will be doing, with all those units in his face turn 1 he has some real choices to make
Flambrics for me are a tough sell comparing them to flamers of tzeentch.
5 points more, and 1 less AP, yes. But flamers get:
-12" range, meaning shoot out of deep strike without needing a psychic power AND you can not avoid their overwatch
-Pistol weapon type, meaning you do charge them? They overwatch you, theeeen they just keep shooting you like nothing happened.
-S:User daemon weapons, meaning you can boost their strength with a herald and give them +1 to wound with a WC5 power, and reroll 1s to wound with a warlord trait. Or heck, boost their strength with a mutalith! Who says it only buffs melee - not when you're a Tzeentch Daemon!
6 flamers plopping down out of deep strike in a daemon army do some serious damage.
Their biggest downside is that we're back at the 'i like rubrics better' point - they look like a 3rd grader's art class project.
MinscS2 wrote: I think it's amazing how many viable warlord traits there are for our Daemon Princes.
+1 invuln or -1 Damage taken (although +1 invuln is probably better most of the time.)
Ya that's a tough one. Since he can hide the usual multi-damage weapons will show up in combat. And the typical 1 damage weapons will have a much harder time wounding. Also -1D doesn't occur until you fail so you can't apply a straight formula very easily.
If you applied 6 wounds to each setup then -1D lets through 3W vs 2D and 6W vs 3D. 3++ allows 4W and 6W respectively.
My gut is that 3++ will be more swingy and you can get him to 3++ with a spell anyway, so -1D could be better, but it depends what you'll face.
Rubrics are in a tough place, they don’t actually have that high damage output but they are super resilient, for me they are probably better as midfield objective campers while units like horrors Tzaangor and scarabs deepstrike in the opponents face,
I’d probably never run more than 10 in a unit with a soul reaper and 2 flamers that way you have half decent defense against charging units but still keep most of your ranged output.
Seeing as our Rubrics can't take a Soulreaper Cannon below 10, I'd say running 5 of them is only viable with Warpflamers now.
Are they viable at all ? Well, I'd say no, but other people swear by them. You may have noticed however that not a single winning list in any major tournament since 8th edition came out had Rubrics in it...
You'll also notice that none of those lists, if they were pure Thousand Sons, had any useful stratagems, relics, traits, or spells beyond Warptime/Prescience.
grouchoben wrote: Daedelus - And death hex/ nullzone are a real thing these days.
Both are horribly short ranged and WC8 - with the exception of TS where we can place Death Hex at 18".
Both are pretty irrelevant for Rubrics if your opponent is dedicated to getting a psyker in range and THEN hitting you with anti-tank weapons good for them. If you've been caught in melee, well, game over man.
Yeah, I don't know how viable rubrics will be as a unit that really carries weight in a tournament. I think they do a job, fill a troop slot, and are definitely more viable post-codex (with loads more hit rerolls running around, a Troop slot+obsec, and ability to cast real psychic powers) than they were pre-codex or in the csm book. 5-man soulreapers in the csm codex or no, you aren't going to take them in an elite slot.
Both TA sorcs come down with them. Get the three in 6 for CF. Get Glamour, Prescience, and Weaver on them. Position the TA sorcs to intervene if you want them to.
You then have two blocks of SoT to bring in and 3 Maulerfiends to rush up the table with Ahriman and Warp Time / Heal / Diabolic.
For DP warlord i'm thinking running it as counter-charge and support for Tzaangors with bows for rerol 1's.
So i'll run 2 DP 1. DP #1 Warlord with +1 to cast, backfield, gives rerol 1's for my tzaangors on disk and buffs them with Prescience, for enemy units who come close - counter charge protection.
2. DP #2 move forward to support 30 tzaangors from webway and try to warptime them.
the_scotsman wrote: Good list, though have you only paid for 6 of the rubrics' guns?
Though I have to see its sooo sad to see these "thousand sons supporting cultists/tzaangors" lists. I mean come on, 30 rubrics and 50 cultists?
(/s)
Paid for them all, but had a bunch of typos and some other errors on the sheet so I had to move a bunch of stuff around.
I find it dubious to claim 200 points of cultists that do literally nothing, but stand around, as "being supported" by 393 points of rubrics and 204 of SoT.
So vortex beasts, what do you all think about running 2 of them? I'm thinking about dropping my 2 laz preds for 2 of them, but at that point I'm worried I'll loose my good heavy armor killing unit.
Backspacehacker wrote: So vortex beasts, what do you all think about running 2 of them? I'm thinking about dropping my 2 laz preds for 2 of them, but at that point I'm worried I'll loose my good heavy armor killing unit.
My plan was going to be run it with a blob on tzaangors. Also got like 50 horrors I could run it with.
Yea it works quite well with them, but you'll want to save a reroll for the crucial moments when it fails to activate, because it is wounded or a bad roll.
Cons of Vortex - what does it do? Buff? I haven't seen all rules yet - but he has to be a best in melee to worth 150+ pts.
Some of his buffs which they can stack are like +1 attack +1 AP, +1 str, or you can do like 1 mortal wound to all enemies in 9 inches, or pick the closest enemy unit in 18 inches roll 3 dice each 4+ is a mortal wound. And you get 2 random powers each turn.
It's strange 7 t 7 in melee I think it's strange user, at -2 and the other option is a 1 wound d -1 AP and 3 attacks per attack in melee.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Really it would be just to get. 4 random stackable powers. Or if I wanted to use two of them to say they have str 6 or -3 AP
Cons of Vortex - what does it do? Buff? I haven't seen all rules yet - but he has to be a best in melee to worth 150+ pts.
Mutalith degrades, too.
The fun thing about them is you need to put them down 100%. Don't take half measures. If you wound it and it doubles it's range then it will do 1 MW to everything within 18" (as long as it rolls 3+).
yeah my only problem with the mutalith is that he's yet. Another. anti elite/anti-horde option in an army that's incredibly desperate for anti-tank. If I remember right he can either throw 12 S7 AP-1 1 damage attacks (pretty good!) or 4 S7 AP-2 multi damage attacks (pretty mediocre).
He is tempting since he can buff my daemons so well, but I think I'd rather have a defiler most of the time.
vortex has amazing synergy with pink horrors. Being able to get them to str 6 (with other buffs) - or being able to buff multiple horrors units to str 5. It's a big deal. And if hes tough to bring down and has beast mode melle stats - might be a keeper IDK.
True and the problem with 8th, is if you take one of something you need to take two because it's gonna get focused.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: vortex has amazing synergy with pink horrors. Being able to get them to str 6 (with other buffs) - or being able to buff multiple horrors units to str 5. It's a big deal. And if hes tough to bring down and has beast mode melle stats - might be a keeper IDK.
To add you can also heal him and buff him to a 4++ the t sons spells heals d3 wounds so
ArtyomTrityak wrote: Yeah... the only issue for TS i see right now is anti-tank weapons. I have no idea what can i use for D3 / D6 damage...
Hellbrutes are not great, Predators either...
The only option i see is Exalted Flamers but they're 18' range which is not too great.
Renegade Knight?
Predators are most certainly great and now it's easier to get them a babysitter with reroll 1s to hit.
Depending on the circumstances a ML/TL helbrute with fire frenzy and the same rerolls is also handy, but the targeting restrictions are rough.
Enlightened with bows can do a number on vehicles as well.
Can't you cast weaver of fate onto a predator to give it a 5+ invulnerable save?
Also does the pred have the thosand sons keyword for glamor of tzeench?
And did we lose access to land raiders? Land raiders with 5+ invulnerable saves are so pretty. Expensive, but pretty.
Backspacehacker wrote: Eh land raider are really worthless in my honest opinion. Way to much
Depends what you put in it. A land raider with Glamour and smoke will be -2 to hit. Keep healing it and your opponent will have a hell of a time bringing it down even without weaver. All those S8 reapers
Ultimately 10 rubrics with 9 flamers is the scariest thing you could load into it.
You can do the same thing with a Defiler, which packs a 5++ and heals some already (only T7 though). Both of these models are great targets for warpflame gargoyles.
Yeah I am looking into a raider with rubrics in it once the codex comes out. I think that will definitely be something scarry heading straight for the enemy line with - 2 to hit.
Myself I am taking a forgefiend instead of a defiler for the support though. 3+/4++ with healing and some help from a chaos lord to get access to deamonforge stratagem, you got an effective fire base between the 2 units I think.
I was just shocked by a beta rule of Psychic Focus (missed it when it came out).
Failed to find any discussions of TS players about it.
Doesn't it annihilate half of our gameplay? And what do GK players think about it?
Heelidar wrote: I was just shocked by a beta rule of Psychic Focus (missed it when it came out).
Failed to find any discussions of TS players about it.
Doesn't it annihilate half of our gameplay? And what do GK players think about it?
We have 18 unique psychic powers to get around it, that's also why Rubrics and Scarabs now have access to powers other than Smite. Generally speaking Thousand Sons weren't a great Smite spam army anyway due to not having cheap psykers with proper Smite as compared to Eldar and Astra Militarum, as our cheap psykers have the weakened Smite. We're used to it, especially as we have good shooting and combat options to get around it.
Something to note with the Vortex Beast is that it can be really useful for both types of Tzaangor units and Scarab Occult, Rubrics are our only core unit that doesn't really benefit from it. Scarabs get Strength 5 attacks (they'll tear apart most things at that point) Enlightened get AP-2 to make cutting through hard targets that much easier and basic Tzaangors are great with either buff. People are underselling the threat of the Vortex Beast; 14 Wounds, T7, 4+ and 5++ is a lot to chew through, it's fairly nasty up close (it's a great target for Diabolic Strength) and at half health it starts putting out mortal wounds to every enemy unit within 18" on a single D6 roll of 3+ (save a re-roll for that!) For 150 points it's a really nice all-rounder, but I definitely would reserve it for lists that want to get into combat as it does nothing for non-Daemonic shooting armies (it has amazing synergy with Tzeentch Daemons) Not a bad choice for any Tzeentch melee unit or daemonic ranged unit really and cheap enough that it doesn't eat up too much points. Definitely something opponents won't want to ignore.
Heelidar wrote: I was just shocked by a beta rule of Psychic Focus (missed it when it came out).
Failed to find any discussions of TS players about it.
Doesn't it annihilate half of our gameplay? And what do GK players think about it?
This Beta rule is poorly thought out (should be "WC increases by 1" instead of "-1 penalty to the casting roll") and should never become a reality.
Smite is *not* and has never been a problem. Ultra-cheap psykers with a full Smite were a problem.
A 98pts Chaos Sorcerer casting Smite AND Infernal Gaze averages 2.9 wounds or 0.02975 damage-per-point.
A 40pts Primaris Psyker casting Smite averages 1.66 wounds or 0.04165 damage-per-point.
A 30pts Malefic lord casting Smite averages 1.66 wounds or 0.0555 damage-per-point.
I wouldn't say this beta rule screws us all the time, as we have plenty of new powers to cast, but sometimes all you need is damage and in these situations, the Beta rule is terrible.
Heelidar wrote: I was just shocked by a beta rule of Psychic Focus (missed it when it came out).
Failed to find any discussions of TS players about it.
Doesn't it annihilate half of our gameplay? And what do GK players think about it?
We have 18 unique psychic powers to get around it, that's also why Rubrics and Scarabs now have access to powers other than Smite. Generally speaking Thousand Sons weren't a great Smite spam army anyway due to not having cheap psykers with proper Smite as compared to Eldar and Astra Militarum, as our cheap psykers have the weakened Smite. We're used to it, especially as we have good shooting and combat options to get around it.
Something to note with the Vortex Beast is that it can be really useful for both types of Tzaangor units and Scarab Occult, Rubrics are our only core unit that doesn't really benefit from it. Scarabs get Strength 5 attacks (they'll tear apart most things at that point) Enlightened get AP-2 to make cutting through hard targets that much easier and basic Tzaangors are great with either buff. People are underselling the threat of the Vortex Beast; 14 Wounds, T7, 4+ and 5++ is a lot to chew through, it's fairly nasty up close (it's a great target for Diabolic Strength) and at half health it starts putting out mortal wounds to every enemy unit within 18" on a single D6 roll of 3+ (save a re-roll for that!) For 150 points it's a really nice all-rounder, but I definitely would reserve it for lists that want to get into combat as it does nothing for non-Daemonic shooting armies (it has amazing synergy with Tzeentch Daemons) Not a bad choice for any Tzeentch melee unit or daemonic ranged unit really and cheap enough that it doesn't eat up too much points. Definitely something opponents won't want to ignore.
18 unique spells on paper.
On the tabletop, we have Rubric and SoT AS who knows only one discipline and can actually semi-reliably cast 2 spells out of it. One of which will be used by Magnus on every turn basis.
18 spells are only for Magnus and DP. Oh, and btw we are not bathing in cheap WC spells at all and don't have a lot of + to cast.
And another question. We have a Smite of an exalted sorc and a smite of AS, do they increase the price of one another?
Heelidar wrote: 18 unique spells on paper.
On the tabletop, we have Rubric and SoT AS who knows only one discipline and can actually semi-reliably cast 2 spells out of it. One of which will be used by Magnus on every turn basis.
18 spells are only for Magnus and DP. Oh, and btw we are not bathing in cheap WC spells at all and don't have a lot of + to cast.
And another question. We have a Smite of an exalted sorc and a smite of AS, do they increase the price of one another?
"On paper"? What?
How many Rubric and Scarab units do you use? If you plan on only using two-three units total of them, you get enough powers for them to take advantage of and allow your other psykers to use Dark Hereticus or the Daemon disciplines. 5 of the 6 powers are WC7 or lower. Tzeentch's Firestorm averages out to a regular Smite that is 2 harder to cast which is fine given that you can snipe characters with it. Boon of Tzeentch is random but it's worth casting if you have nothing else to do if only because some of the stuff you can get is really good and there's only one result you probably won't want (Spawndom). Temporal Manipulation is a spell that you want to be casting each turn but doesn't have a high enough cast value or importance to be mandatory on someone like Magnus or Ahriman, so it works for the lesser psykers. Weaver of Fates is good to have on one of those units as a backup in case the primary psyker using it dies (which you should prepare for) and that's a similar situation with Glamour. If you only run two Rubric/Scarab units total, Firestorm and Manipulation are all they need. Our lack of Perils mitigation sucks but if you plan on using Magnus you've already got a great way to bypass it, otherwise do the smart thing and cast with your lesser psykers first so that you preserve any re-rolls (make sure you have Gaze of Fate cast first of course) for them.
18 powers are 18 powers. Your various psykers have access to the different lores to encourage diversity of psykers taken. A standard Thousand Sons army will want Ahriman, a Daemon Prince and a Terminator Sorcerer which is 7 powers, then one or two units of Rubrics/Scarabs gives you an additional 2. Ahriman and the Terminator Sorcerer get +1 or +2 to cast depending on traits/wargear, you can do the same with the Prince, you can also give +2 to any particular cast for 1CP.
And yes. All Smites count for the Beta rule.
The fact of the matter is, we can get around the Beta rule just fine and we've been doing that for a while. It doesn't kill our army like you seem to think it does. Could our powers have lower warp charge values or could we have more perils mitigation/casting bonuses? Sure. However, we can get by with what we have.
Heelidar wrote: 18 unique spells on paper.
On the tabletop, we have Rubric and SoT AS who knows only one discipline and can actually semi-reliably cast 2 spells out of it. One of which will be used by Magnus on every turn basis.
18 spells are only for Magnus and DP. Oh, and btw we are not bathing in cheap WC spells at all and don't have a lot of + to cast.
And another question. We have a Smite of an exalted sorc and a smite of AS, do they increase the price of one another?
"On paper"? What?
How many Rubric and Scarab units do you use? If you plan on only using two-three units total of them, you get enough powers for them to take advantage of and allow your other psykers to use Dark Hereticus or the Daemon disciplines. 5 of the 6 powers are WC7 or lower. Tzeentch's Firestorm averages out to a regular Smite that is 2 harder to cast which is fine given that you can snipe characters with it. Boon of Tzeentch is random but it's worth casting if you have nothing to else to do if only because some of the stuff you can get is really good and there's only one result you probably won't want (Spawndom). Temporal Manipulation is a spell that you want to be casting each turn but doesn't have a high enough cast value or importance to be mandatory on someone like Magnus or Ahriman, so it works for the lesser psykers. Weaver of Fates is good to have on one of those units as a backup in case the primary psyker using it dies (which you should prepare for) and that's a similar situation with Glamour. If you only run two Rubric/Scarab units total, Firestorm and Manipulation are all they need. Our lack of Perils mitigation sucks but if you plan on using Magnus you've already got a great way to bypass it, otherwise do the smart thing and cast with your lesser psykers first so that you preserve any re-rolls (make sure you have Gaze of Fate cast first of course) for them.
18 powers are 18 powers. Your various psykers have access to the different lores to encourage diversity of psykers taken. A standard Thousand Sons army will want Ahriman, a Daemon Prince and a Terminator Sorcerer which is 7 powers, then one or two units of Rubrics/Scarabs gives you an additional 2. Ahriman and the Terminator Sorcerer get +1 or +2 to cast depending on traits/wargear, you can do the same with the Prince, you can also give +2 to any particular cast for 1CP.
And yes. All Smites count for the Beta rule.
The fact of the matter is, we can get around the Beta rule just fine and we've been doing that for a while. It doesn't kill our army like you seem to think it does. Could our powers have lower warp charge values or could we have more perils mitigation/casting bonuses? Sure. However, we can get by with what we have.
How many? Well at least 3 if we are talking about a TS army. Not about the disciples of Tzeench force.
Ok. I got your point. And I am not saying it is unplayable, it just strips us from half of our potential for reliability and makes us take spells semi-randomly just for the sake of forced variety.
And this rule is another nail in the coffin of pure TS forces.
btw what a DP is doing in a TS army? Is he a former Sorc that got lucky? Or was he invited by Magnus for a couple of cookies?
May be I am just too salty with this codex tzangors to think clearly.
Heelidar wrote: How many? Well at least 3 if we are talking about a TS army. Not about the disciples of Tzeench force.
Ok. I got your point. And I am not saying it is unplayable, it just strips us from half of our potential for reliability and makes us take spells semi-randomly just for the sake of forced variety.
And this rule is another nail in the coffin of pure TS forces.
btw what a DP is doing in a TS army? Is he a former Sorc that got lucky? Or was he invited by Magnus for a couple of cookies?
May be I am just too salty with this codex tzangors to think clearly.
I think 3 is perfectly fine, if you're running Magnus and Ahriman one or both of them will take Glamour and Weaver, leaving Firestorm, Temporal and Boon for your Rubrics/Scarabs which they can do good things with. Another point to keep in mind is the Chaos Familiar stratagem which gives them access to any of those 18 powers for 1CP!
While that's fair, to be honest our baby-Smites didn't contribute *that* much; if you take three Scarab/Rubric units, you're getting off like two of those a turn on average rolls for 2 mortal wounds, generally speaking. With the above powers I mention, while they are harder to cast, you can use Firestorm to snipe characters and average more mortal wounds than the baby-Smite, and Temporal Manipulation is a really nice support power to have on one of the lesser psykers. The Beta Smite rules more affect our primary psykers, and usually you only want three-four depending on whether you take Magnus or not, you can still get around it thanks to our various casting bonuses. On that point, I kinda disagree; new Magnus - while weaker competitively due to alpha strikes having an easier time against him - makes our psychic phase way better than it was pre Beta rules, especially in conjunction with Brotherhood of Sorcerers. Re-roll 1s in addition to various +1s from a Warlord Trait, a stratagem and wargear (for the Terminator Sorcerer) leaves us in a much better place than before in that sense.
A Thousand Sons Daemon Prince is indeed a former Thousand Sons that ascended to daemonhood, ergo why it is different to a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch from the Chaos Daemon codex. It fits fluff wise 100% in a "pure" Thousand Sons army.
Hey, you're not alone, many of us were disappointed with the codex in some way, large or small. I think it's incredibly stupid that the only stratagem specific to Rubrics and Scarabs triggers when their squad leader - arguably the most distinct thing about them (squad leader psyker, oh my!) - dies, to the point that I think it is actually an intentional slap in the face by the rules designers. I would have liked some minor points drops on both Rubrics and Scarabs as well as a boost to the invulnerable save of the Scarabs or a change to their version of All is Dust to work against Damage 2 and D3, but generally speaking I got almost everything I wanted. We're stuck with the reality of this codex, good or bad, so we may as well do our best to make the most of it.
If you want a fluff reason to have a demon prince in a thousand son army do what I did, buy an achean 30k robot paint it up and say that a sorceror was near death and transferred his soul into it. Bam done
why would a daemon prince be against fluff? The only Tsons against mutations IIRC are Ahriman's exiles, all the sorcerors working for Magnus are playing the great game just like all other chaos marines - look at the exalted sorcerors.
As for rubric powers, even in my most pure thousand sons army (1 squad of Tzaangor auxiliary, 1 squad of horror chaff plus basic herald but otherwise all Tsons) I have all of four aspiring/SOT sorcerors to figure out powers for. Firestorm, Boon, Temporal, Weaver, done.
That leaves me with Gaze of Fate on the herald, 2 on a daemon prince, 3 on ahriman, 2 on a jump pack sorceror, and that's generally pretty easy to figure out.
Do I wish I had more stratagems for rubrics? Maybe, if they were really good. It'd have to be pretty awesome to convince me to not spend my CPs on Veterans of the Long War, Daemonforge, and deep strikes.
the_scotsman wrote: Do I wish I had more stratagems for rubrics? Maybe, if they were really good. It'd have to be pretty awesome to convince me to not spend my CPs on Veterans of the Long War, Daemonforge, and deep strikes.
That is a very good point, ultimately a +1 to-wound buff from VotLW and a +1 to-hit buff from Prescience already gives Rubrics all the damage related help they need, especially if you toss in a re-roll 1s aura from any of our expensive characters.
Some kind of stratagem that protects them against mortal wounds, perhaps? Or a stratagem that makes their All is Dust rule work against everything?
the_scotsman wrote: Do I wish I had more stratagems for rubrics? Maybe, if they were really good. It'd have to be pretty awesome to convince me to not spend my CPs on Veterans of the Long War, Daemonforge, and deep strikes.
That is a very good point, ultimately a +1 to-wound buff from VotLW and a +1 to-hit buff from Prescience already gives Rubrics all the damage related help they need, especially if you toss in a re-roll 1s aura from any of our expensive characters.
Some kind of stratagem that protects them against mortal wounds, perhaps? Or a stratagem that makes their All is Dust rule work against everything?
A mortal wound protection stratagem would be incredible. Something for like 2cp that makes models in a unit with the All is Dust rule immune to mortal wounds for the phase would be good last-ditch protection against perils and would be useful to drop in response to stuff like WOM-bots or other mortal spam.
the_scotsman wrote: Do I wish I had more stratagems for rubrics? Maybe, if they were really good. It'd have to be pretty awesome to convince me to not spend my CPs on Veterans of the Long War, Daemonforge, and deep strikes.
That is a very good point, ultimately a +1 to-wound buff from VotLW and a +1 to-hit buff from Prescience already gives Rubrics all the damage related help they need, especially if you toss in a re-roll 1s aura from any of our expensive characters.
Some kind of stratagem that protects them against mortal wounds, perhaps? Or a stratagem that makes their All is Dust rule work against everything?
A mortal wound protection stratagem would be incredible. Something for like 2cp that makes models in a unit with the All is Dust rule immune to mortal wounds for the phase would be good last-ditch protection against perils and would be useful to drop in response to stuff like WOM-bots or other mortal spam.
I actually thought about an offensive stratagem. Like, make them shoot twice for 2cp, or make their bolters d2 for one shooting phase.
A Peril protection is something that should be done similar to GK as someone already suggested.
the_scotsman wrote: Do I wish I had more stratagems for rubrics? Maybe, if they were really good. It'd have to be pretty awesome to convince me to not spend my CPs on Veterans of the Long War, Daemonforge, and deep strikes.
That is a very good point, ultimately a +1 to-wound buff from VotLW and a +1 to-hit buff from Prescience already gives Rubrics all the damage related help they need, especially if you toss in a re-roll 1s aura from any of our expensive characters.
Some kind of stratagem that protects them against mortal wounds, perhaps? Or a stratagem that makes their All is Dust rule work against everything?
A mortal wound protection stratagem would be incredible. Something for like 2cp that makes models in a unit with the All is Dust rule immune to mortal wounds for the phase would be good last-ditch protection against perils and would be useful to drop in response to stuff like WOM-bots or other mortal spam.
I actually thought about an offensive stratagem. Like, make them shoot twice for 2cp, or make their bolters d2 for one shooting phase.
I'd just worry they'd become too strong at that point in conjunction with our buffs and VOTLW. In the game I played last night, I had a squad of 10 pop out within rapid fire range of a mauler fiend and without any buffs besides a DP's hit aura they used VOTLW and took 8/12 wounds off the thing.
And yes, I know that Tzaangors have the ability to do that. I think that's going to be a problem from a balance perspective, and I think after GW's finished sorting out the problem of too-defensive hordes and super characters, the next thing they're going to have to tackle is super damage alpha strike lists.
The reason reapers are so dominant right now is that they're really the only thing in the game that reliably matches up well with super alpha strike shenanigans. They're the spider that swallows the fly right now, and in march with the big FAQ when they give them a nerf we're going to see a crap-ton of genestealer rush, bloodletter bomb, BA character bomb, tzaangor bomb and all kinds of dumb one-turn alpha strike stuff come down. Heck a one-point nerf on infantry squads would probably make that happen, Dark Reapers or no.
the_scotsman wrote: Do I wish I had more stratagems for rubrics? Maybe, if they were really good. It'd have to be pretty awesome to convince me to not spend my CPs on Veterans of the Long War, Daemonforge, and deep strikes.
That is a very good point, ultimately a +1 to-wound buff from VotLW and a +1 to-hit buff from Prescience already gives Rubrics all the damage related help they need, especially if you toss in a re-roll 1s aura from any of our expensive characters.
Some kind of stratagem that protects them against mortal wounds, perhaps? Or a stratagem that makes their All is Dust rule work against everything?
A mortal wound protection stratagem would be incredible. Something for like 2cp that makes models in a unit with the All is Dust rule immune to mortal wounds for the phase would be good last-ditch protection against perils and would be useful to drop in response to stuff like WOM-bots or other mortal spam.
I actually thought about an offensive stratagem. Like, make them shoot twice for 2cp, or make their bolters d2 for one shooting phase.
I'd just worry they'd become too strong at that point in conjunction with our buffs and VOTLW. In the game I played last night, I had a squad of 10 pop out within rapid fire range of a mauler fiend and without any buffs besides a DP's hit aura they used VOTLW and took 8/12 wounds off the thing.
And yes, I know that Tzaangors have the ability to do that. I think that's going to be a problem from a balance perspective, and I think after GW's finished sorting out the problem of too-defensive hordes and super characters, the next thing they're going to have to tackle is super damage alpha strike lists.
The reason reapers are so dominant right now is that they're really the only thing in the game that reliably matches up well with super alpha strike shenanigans. They're the spider that swallows the fly right now, and in march with the big FAQ when they give them a nerf we're going to see a crap-ton of genestealer rush, bloodletter bomb, BA character bomb, tzaangor bomb and all kinds of dumb one-turn alpha strike stuff come down. Heck a one-point nerf on infantry squads would probably make that happen, Dark Reapers or no.
I'd agree with this policy if not for the tzaangor strategem with similar effect.
And btw a squad of 10 rubrics still cost more than a maulerfiend. And after you took 8 wounds of it, I can still imagine it charging back and annihilating or crippling heavily the rubrics.
On beta smite I agree that units that can only deal 1 damage or cast in a single die should not be effected by it. I would have no problem with the rule if rubrics and gk got full smite.
On the LR with rubrics, the problem there is that you now made a massive juicy target for your opponant. It's basically a 500 point piniata. And that's the issue, if you take a LR your paying a lot for transport, where you can get more versatile firepower outta 2 preds and more survivability. If you load up the LR you now have a massive target.
the_scotsman wrote: Do I wish I had more stratagems for rubrics? Maybe, if they were really good. It'd have to be pretty awesome to convince me to not spend my CPs on Veterans of the Long War, Daemonforge, and deep strikes.
That is a very good point, ultimately a +1 to-wound buff from VotLW and a +1 to-hit buff from Prescience already gives Rubrics all the damage related help they need, especially if you toss in a re-roll 1s aura from any of our expensive characters.
Some kind of stratagem that protects them against mortal wounds, perhaps? Or a stratagem that makes their All is Dust rule work against everything?
A mortal wound protection stratagem would be incredible. Something for like 2cp that makes models in a unit with the All is Dust rule immune to mortal wounds for the phase would be good last-ditch protection against perils and would be useful to drop in response to stuff like WOM-bots or other mortal spam.
I actually thought about an offensive stratagem. Like, make them shoot twice for 2cp, or make their bolters d2 for one shooting phase.
I'd just worry they'd become too strong at that point in conjunction with our buffs and VOTLW. In the game I played last night, I had a squad of 10 pop out within rapid fire range of a mauler fiend and without any buffs besides a DP's hit aura they used VOTLW and took 8/12 wounds off the thing.
And yes, I know that Tzaangors have the ability to do that. I think that's going to be a problem from a balance perspective, and I think after GW's finished sorting out the problem of too-defensive hordes and super characters, the next thing they're going to have to tackle is super damage alpha strike lists.
The reason reapers are so dominant right now is that they're really the only thing in the game that reliably matches up well with super alpha strike shenanigans. They're the spider that swallows the fly right now, and in march with the big FAQ when they give them a nerf we're going to see a crap-ton of genestealer rush, bloodletter bomb, BA character bomb, tzaangor bomb and all kinds of dumb one-turn alpha strike stuff come down. Heck a one-point nerf on infantry squads would probably make that happen, Dark Reapers or no.
I'd agree with this policy if not for the tzaangor strategem with similar effect.
And btw a squad of 10 rubrics still cost more than a maulerfiend. And after you took 8 wounds of it, I can still imagine it charging back and annihilating or crippling heavily the rubrics.
I know about the Tzaangor stratagem, I don't think they should have it. Eventually, I think it's going to lead to the unit getting a points nerf, if they only do points changes in their balance updates.
in the instance of my game at least, it didn't charge them, because I just shot it with an exalted flamer and finished it off. But even if it had charged, it kills on average what, two rubrics when damaged to that level?
Point is, I definitely don't disagree Rubrics could use another bread-and-butter stratagem, I'd just rather see it be defensive rather than offensive, and I'd extra-like to see it focus around mortal wounds, which besides a psychic deny we don't have a good defense for. Rubrics are by nature a defensive unit, I don't need to be removing handfuls of enemy models with them for them to be good.
Unless it was a fall back and shoot or shoot in close combat stratagem. They could really use that.
I'm thinking a good strat is if you take a flamer squad, always give the sorcerer in that unit warp time, that way, when you get charged, flame on, fight, your turn, warp time right outta combat, flame on, let them charge you again.
Don't really need a strat for it, just carful planning.
Backspacehacker wrote: On beta smite I agree that units that can only deal 1 damage or cast in a single die should not be effected by it. I would have no problem with the rule if rubrics and gk got full smite.
On the LR with rubrics, the problem there is that you now made a massive juicy target for your opponant. It's basically a 500 point piniata. And that's the issue, if you take a LR your paying a lot for transport, where you can get more versatile firepower outta 2 preds and more survivability. If you load up the LR you now have a massive target.
Your right it is a massive target, but that's why you get the -2 to hit and 5++ for protection. At that point it's marine equivalents hitting on 5's, guards on 6's, and orks can't even hit it. Then you have to wound it then get past the invulnerable. Assuming you can get 16 wounds on it (doubtful) you can also repair it due to spells or warpsmiths, and it should be able to get the rubrics where they need to go.
Or don't put anything in it, use it as a massive fire point and distraction carnifex. It may work well especially if your opponent is not expecting it. I mean, who takes land raiders? I haven't seen one in ages, been trying to find a place for mine in a list and just can't find anywhere for it to go. Now I have an option.
On other topic I was thinking a 10 man squad of rubrics and a deamon prince for deep striking as an alpha bug hunt team. Use veterans of the long war to go after anything juicy and warp time on dp to get it moving and charge / finish it off. Between the raider running up with flamers and the dp drop and assault it is an aggressive and expensive force but one filled with potential to catch an enemy off guard who hears "oh your taking tsons? Gunline it is. "
Backspacehacker wrote: On beta smite I agree that units that can only deal 1 damage or cast in a single die should not be effected by it. I would have no problem with the rule if rubrics and gk got full smite.
On the LR with rubrics, the problem there is that you now made a massive juicy target for your opponant. It's basically a 500 point piniata. And that's the issue, if you take a LR your paying a lot for transport, where you can get more versatile firepower outta 2 preds and more survivability. If you load up the LR you now have a massive target.
its the issue with land raiders most factions who don't have our level of psychic support have. For us, a single target is better than two in many ways because the opponent can't just say "Ok, so I'll just target the one you didnt cast powers on, then".
Similar to magnus, the flaw with the LR is how first turn reliant it is, and it has an added weakness to getting tied up by fast chaff in melee. But like any superheavy, it will win you games where you get first turn, you drop everything on it, and your opponent just doesn't have enough to take it out. but they won't exactly be feels-good victories in my book.
And btw a squad of 10 rubrics still cost more than a maulerfiend. And after you took 8 wounds of it, I can still imagine it charging back and annihilating or crippling heavily the rubrics.
A maulerfiend on it's last chart would be lucky to kill two rubrics. Putting 8 wounds on it is a bit above average as well though.
On the LR with rubrics, the problem there is that you now made a massive juicy target for your opponant. It's basically a 500 point piniata. And that's the issue, if you take a LR your paying a lot for transport, where you can get more versatile firepower outta 2 preds and more survivability. If you load up the LR you now have a massive target.
A pinata they likely can't kill with -2 and heals, but with lots of Dark Reapers out there it is risky until they get nerfed.
Unless it was a fall back and shoot or shoot in close combat stratagem. They could really use that.
You can use the dark matter crystal for that.
The problem with the landraider is that a squad of rubrics simply does not justify the cost of it.
It's not just it's ability to transport, it's also it's laz cannons and heavy bolters.
If we were talking about simple troop transport I would say don't bother, go with rhinos. If we were looking for just long range fire Support again, just take 2 preds. What I am looking at is the combination of raiders ability to move forward fast with a high chance to not be hit and it's massive toughness as well as its ability to act as an anchor for for your army after it drops the rubrics down. You could pick something else to put in the raider but I don't think scarab occult would be a good choice.
Yes it's first turn reliant, but so is magnus and plenty of people take him.
Unless it was a fall back and shoot or shoot in close combat stratagem. They could really use that.
You can use the dark matter crystal for that.
The problem with the landraider is that a squad of rubrics simply does not justify the cost of it.
Oh no, it was more like "if youre already buying a land raider, put a squad of rubrics in it to hide them the first turn and save yourself a rhino"
I find I almost never leave squads in transports past the first turn, especially high value shooting squads like rubrics. The transports are purely ablative shielding vs anti elite weaponry turn 1. I'd much rather my rhinos eat 2 basilisks and then die, killing 1-2 rubrics, than my 10-man rubric squad eats 2 basilisks and gets wiped.
I just picked up my codex from my lfgs and I am very happy, the reasons I was trying to get a chaos detachment (some stratagems I was afraid they would only have access too) is not needed, they are in the book. it's a good day to be a thousand son player lol.
What I am looking at is the combination of raiders ability to move forward fast with a high chance to not be hit and it's massive toughness as well as its ability to act as an anchor for for your army after it drops the rubrics dow
But why would you want a fire-support tank with 48" range guns that has to move forward to disembark troops? I mean, it doesn't take more than a charging squad of gretchin to silence a landraider for a turn.
Oh no, it was more like "if youre already buying a land raider, put a squad of rubrics in it to hide them the first turn and save yourself a rhino"
I find I almost never leave squads in transports past the first turn, especially high value shooting squads like rubrics. The transports are purely ablative shielding vs anti elite weaponry turn 1. I'd much rather my rhinos eat 2 basilisks and then die, killing 1-2 rubrics, than my 10-man rubric squad eats 2 basilisks and gets wiped.
Let me get that straight: If you had, say, 3 rhinos with rubrics, you would disembark them in their own deployment (+3") in your own first turn, and then move them 5" and then shoot their guns? And then move the empty rhinos forward?
But why would you want a fire-support tank with 48" range guns that has to move forward to disembark troops? I mean, it doesn't take more than a charging squad of gretchin to silence a landraider for a turn.
Warpflame Gargoyles + large footprint = win. It's unlikely that we'd encounter a mass of gretchin out front.
In most of my games with them so far...yes. I've had targets within 24" to shoot at. If my opponent doesn't leave his deployment zone then I'd not get them out but so far the 32" threat range has been sufficient to hop them out and hit something turn 1.
Bear in mind, in the gunline matchup I have 30 tzaangors dropping in and tying up as much of my opponents heavy firepower as possible. So the rubrics are usually deployed as far up as I can get them without exposing a rhino to the whole army, with the idea that the rubrics will have a turn where the opposing army is tied up with tzaangors, either trying to kill them or engaged by them.
I find transports work a lot like deep strike in 8th: you can stay on board but the tempo loss from doing so is often so bad that a sub optimal drop turn 1 usually has more impact than a better drop turn 2.
But why would you want a fire-support tank with 48" range guns that has to move forward to disembark troops? I mean, it doesn't take more than a charging squad of gretchin to silence a landraider for a turn.
Warpflame Gargoyles + large footprint = win. It's unlikely that we'd encounter a mass of gretchin out front.
No, but then boyz, guardsmen, termagants, cultists, horrors, neophytes or any of the many screening units that are common right now. Or maybe just a squad of scouts.
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the_scotsman wrote: In most of my games with them so far...yes. I've had targets within 24" to shoot at. If my opponent doesn't leave his deployment zone then I'd not get them out but so far the 32" threat range has been sufficient to hop them out and hit something turn 1.
Bear in mind, in the gunline matchup I have 30 tzaangors dropping in and tying up as much of my opponents heavy firepower as possible. So the rubrics are usually deployed as far up as I can get them without exposing a rhino to the whole army, with the idea that the rubrics will have a turn where the opposing army is tied up with tzaangors, either trying to kill them or engaged by them.
I find transports work a lot like deep strike in 8th: you can stay on board but the tempo loss from doing so is often so bad that a sub optimal drop turn 1 usually has more impact than a better drop turn 2.
Hmm, I guess. But don't you think that Rubrics needs to be in rapid fire range to make their points back?
The tzaangor drop just seems like such a weak version of the Ork boy jump. You need and 8 to make the charge with a bray horn, right?
Have you considered deploying a min squad of tzaangors/CC cultists next to your rubric rhinos, so that they can embark in the rhino after the rubrics has disembarked? Then the rhino can zoom forward with passengers, and the Rubrics can move and shoot?
I know some Ork players do that with Stormboyz deployed in transports. You get a +3" for you attempted first turn charge, and then the transport can load up with boyz + characters and go somewhere.
So it looks like Tzaangors on discs with spears are our vehicles killers? 2dmg on charge.
Did we get any points drop for Predators or other heavy guys?
Preds are the same as before. Personally I think our anti tank options are pretty good.
Forgefiend (Flickering flames or just deamonforge stratagem)
Hellbrute
Predator Tank
Land Raiders
Defiler (reaper wounding on 3's or 4's, battle cannon wounding on 3's if you cast Flickering flames onto it)
I see the enlightened tzaangors more elite killers, like terminators or bikers.
Guys, in the spanish codex Ahriman, Exalted Sorcerrors, Magnus, etc... keep their "Rerrolls invuls of 1" aura. Is that correct? Wasn't it nerfed? Or is a problem of copy paste from the SPanish Codex?
Tzaangors are looking really good! The ones on Disc have the Daemon keyword too, so they'd get the +1S near a Tzeentch Herald.
Deep striking in two blobs with the webway infiltation stratagem and teleport another with the dark matter crystal, and you have 90 goats who need to roll an 8 to charge.
GrafWattenburg wrote: Tzaangors are looking really good! The ones on Disc have the Daemon keyword too, so they'd get the +1S near a Tzeentch Herald.
Deep striking in two blobs with the webway infiltation stratagem and teleport another with the dark matter crystal, and you have 90 goats who need to roll an 8 to charge.
How are you getting the herald there and covering them - more CP? How are you getting the shaman to be in range after they charge?
Has anyone summed up all the ways to buff Skyfires? I am currently in possession of 18 shelved after nerf in AoS.
Fielding them as a solid force in 40k would be awesome.
Shaman and prescience are the obvious couple for shooting unit. VotL is the overkill due to the auto wound on 4+.
Fan67 wrote: Has anyone summed up all the ways to buff Skyfires? I am currently in possession of 18 shelved after nerf in AoS.
Fielding them as a solid force in 40k would be awesome.
Shaman and prescience are the obvious couple for shooting unit. VotL is the overkill due to the auto wound on 4+.
For damage output on skyfires? That's pretty much it. Reroll 1s and +2 to hit. Spear enlightened get more from the mutalith.
Fan67 wrote: Has anyone summed up all the ways to buff Skyfires? I am currently in possession of 18 shelved after nerf in AoS.
Fielding them as a solid force in 40k would be awesome.
Shaman and prescience are the obvious couple for shooting unit. VotL is the overkill due to the auto wound on 4+.
Auras
DP re-roll 1s to hit
Exalted/Ahriman re-roll 1s to hit
Change Caster +1 Str Shaman +1 hit
Karios/LoC improved LD Changeling 6+++ save
Locus of Trickery CC shenanigans
Spells
Prescience + 1 hit
Weaver of Fate +1 invul save
Glamor of Tzeentch -1 to hit unit
Flicker Fire +1 to wound
Warp Time extra movement
Boon of Change +1 attack or Strength or Toughness roll d3
Diabolical Strength +2 Strength and +1 attack (Twistbray)
Temporal Manipulation 1d3 heal
Stratagems
Cycle of Slaughter attack a second time 2 CP VotLW +1 to wound for phase 1 CP
Probably more strats cant think of anymore for some reason.
Webway Deepstrike 1/2 Units for 1/3 CP ( cant believe i forgot this one)
So looks like the fire frenzy stratagem is worded different for Thousand Sons than the other legions. It's keyworded to helbrute, which means the forge world helbrutes can join the double tap fun.
This is very good.
Captyn_Bob wrote: So looks like the fire frenzy stratagem is worded different for Thousand Sons than the other legions. It's keyworded to helbrute, which means the forge world helbrutes can join the double tap fun.
This is very good.
It’s blatently a typo, but RAW my double butcher Leviathan can shoot twice. I probably won’t do this against friends...
ArtyomTrityak wrote: I'm thinking what will be better - 3 Predators with autocanons+twin lascannon or 3 Helbrutes with twin lascannon and missile launcher.
Predators have 12W each so 36 W total, Helbrutes have 8W each so 24W total but they do not degrade.
If 3 Predators are alive we can use Killshot for 1CP but for Helbrutes we can use FIRE FRENZY.
After thinking i think 3 Predators would work better.
If one predator dies though...
Helbrutes are 366. Predators are 540. A mix wouldn't be a terrible idea. Fire Freny also has to target the nearest, which isn't great for anti-tank weapons usually.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: I'm thinking what will be better - 3 Predators with autocanons+twin lascannon or 3 Helbrutes with twin lascannon and missile launcher.
Predators have 12W each so 36 W total, Helbrutes have 8W each so 24W total but they do not degrade.
If 3 Predators are alive we can use Killshot for 1CP but for Helbrutes we can use FIRE FRENZY.
After thinking i think 3 Predators would work better.
If one predator dies though...
Helbrutes are 366. Predators are 540. A mix wouldn't be a terrible idea. Fire Freny also has to target the nearest, which isn't great for anti-tank weapons usually.
I'd take the predators here. You get a lot more use out of predcannons than the missile launchers, and if you get first turn (which you probably will be getting 60% of the time) you get to spend one of the most efficient CPs you'll ever spend on killshot.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: I'm thinking what will be better - 3 Predators with autocanons+twin lascannon or 3 Helbrutes with twin lascannon and missile launcher.
Predators have 12W each so 36 W total, Helbrutes have 8W each so 24W total but they do not degrade.
If 3 Predators are alive we can use Killshot for 1CP but for Helbrutes we can use FIRE FRENZY.
After thinking i think 3 Predators would work better.
If one predator dies though...
Helbrutes are 366. Predators are 540. A mix wouldn't be a terrible idea. Fire Freny also has to target the nearest, which isn't great for anti-tank weapons usually.
How do you get to those numbers? I mean, a hellbrute with twin fists is 122. But with twin lascannon and a missile launcher they are considerably more expensive
I think neither predators nor hellbrutes are more than average. Six las-canon shots at bs 3+ will do 7-8 wounds to a Leman Russ, which is not all that spectacular. The least bad way of running hellbrutes are probably with twin fists and twin combi-bolters. If you are loading up on lascannons you should bring no less than ten.
Contemptor Dreadnought with Butcher cannons is worth mentioning I think. Against a predator it's doing an expected 4 damage, as opposed to a 4-las predator doing 1.4 D6 worth. Predator just shades it.
But the contemptor is also great against multiwound elites, dropping a -2 leadership debuff on them too. And it comes in at 163pts, has a 5++ and 10 wounds, so it's tougher than the pred too.
I think 8 shots at 2+ is really nice, and while you're looking at -1AP, weight of fire will push shots through. Just my 2c worth.
How do you get to those numbers? I mean, a hellbrute with twin fists is 122. But with twin lascannon and a missile launcher they are considerably more expensive
I think neither predators nor hellbrutes are more than average. Six las-canon shots at bs 3+ will do 7-8 wounds to a Leman Russ, which is not all that spectacular. The least bad way of running hellbrutes are probably with twin fists and twin combi-bolters. If you are loading up on lascannons you should bring no less than ten.
Yea fat fingered the cost in my brain. Helbrutes are 75 points more overall. Twin fists are cool, but getting them to their tanks takes a loooong time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: Contemptor Dreadnought with Butcher cannons is worth mentioning I think. Against a predator it's doing an expected 4 damage, as opposed to a 4-las predator doing 1.4 D6 worth. Predator just shades it.
But the contemptor is also great against multiwound elites, dropping a -2 leadership debuff on them too. And it comes in at 163pts, has a 5++ and 10 wounds, so it's tougher than the pred too.
I think 8 shots at 2+ is really nice, and while you're looking at -1AP, weight of fire will push shots through. Just my 2c worth.
I will almost always do dual C-Beam.
Pros:
1) It can outrange almost anything if you have a firing lane to do so.
2) 24.1" : 2 * .833 * .666 * .833 * 4 = 3.7 vs pred
3) 48.1" : 2 * .833 * .666 * .833 * 6 = 5.5 vs pred
4) It is just as effective against infantry...causing 2D6 S6 AP0 hits if you kill a model, which is handy if your fire frenzy target is a horde.
How do you get to those numbers? I mean, a hellbrute with twin fists is 122. But with twin lascannon and a missile launcher they are considerably more expensive
I think neither predators nor hellbrutes are more than average. Six las-canon shots at bs 3+ will do 7-8 wounds to a Leman Russ, which is not all that spectacular. The least bad way of running hellbrutes are probably with twin fists and twin combi-bolters. If you are loading up on lascannons you should bring no less than ten.
Yea fat fingered the cost in my brain. Helbrutes are 75 points more overall. Twin fists are cool, but getting them to their tanks takes a loooong time.
With a first turn advance you are pretty much guaranteed to charge something on turn 2. I am not saying that it is great, but shooty dreadnoughts are mostly just free points for your opponent. The great thing about the classic assault-cannon dread is that it allows you to advance in your first turn while still shooting a little bit.
What’s a good mobile counter assault unit, anything chaos is ok. Are spawn our best choice now with the stratagem? Raptors? Warp talons? Looking to stay around 120 points.
How do you get to those numbers? I mean, a hellbrute with twin fists is 122. But with twin lascannon and a missile launcher they are considerably more expensive
I think neither predators nor hellbrutes are more than average. Six las-canon shots at bs 3+ will do 7-8 wounds to a Leman Russ, which is not all that spectacular. The least bad way of running hellbrutes are probably with twin fists and twin combi-bolters. If you are loading up on lascannons you should bring no less than ten.
Yea fat fingered the cost in my brain. Helbrutes are 75 points more overall. Twin fists are cool, but getting them to their tanks takes a loooong time.
With a first turn advance you are pretty much guaranteed to charge something on turn 2. I am not saying that it is great, but shooty dreadnoughts are mostly just free points for your opponent. The great thing about the classic assault-cannon dread is that it allows you to advance in your first turn while still shooting a little bit.
Played my first game with my thosand sons earlier today, know who my vehicle killer turned out to be? MoFo Defiler.
My plan was to use a forgefiend with an exalted sorcerers casting prescience and a changecaster casting Flickering flames but my friend wanted a bigger game so I grabbed a defiler for the whatevers. Then my friend got first turn and blew the forgefiend away before I got to do anything to it.
That's when I realized that the defiler actually fits better in this roll! Prescience + exalted got me hitting on 3's rerolling ones, weaver of fate got it to a 4+ invulnerable, glamor of tzeench got it to -1 to hit, and Flickering flames made its battle cannon wound toughness 8 on 3's and it's dual laz cannons wound on 2's vs everything! It blew a predator away on its first turn and then continued to sit there and be a serious pain, wounding vehicles down to their lowest teir each fire round. Rubrics made perfect anti infantry firepower and didn't need support, and cultists covered the area so nothing could get to me alpha strike wise. He ended up just trying to ignore it (and failing) by turn 4 because he could not do anything to it reliably, the one time he did put some wounds on it I just healed thanks to Temporal manipulation + infernal regeneration.
Yes that's a lot of spells to put into 1 thing, and yes Flickering flames works better on pink horrors, but I only had 10 of them and after they got shot first turn down to 3 it was no longer worth casting it on them.
He has already requested a rematch since he didn't expect the defiler to be so nasty thanks to the spells. I hope to have a second defiler by next week now, forget the forgefiend lol.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: if not predators or halbrutes than what? We do not have a lot of options
Shooting:
- Forgefiends with Hades Autocannons (+ Daemonforge Stratagem.)
- Helfyre Missile Racks if you bring SOT's.
- Vindicators.
- Enlightened with Fatecaster greatbows. While not nearly as efficient at killing tanks as they are with spears, they can easily do a couple of wounds on most targets.
- Anything with a high number of shots and the VotLW Stratagem. (Like a big unit of Rubrics/SOT's)
Melee:
- A Daemon Prince with Malefic Talons and Diabolic Strength. 9 Str 9 D2 AP2 attacks who hit on 2+, rerolling 1's.
- Enlightened with Divining spears. 9 of them average 10 wounds to a Leman Russ on the charge.
- Chaos Spawns, especially with the Fated Mutation Stratagem.
- Maulerfiends (+ Daemonforge Stratagem)
- Magnus is a bit of a can-opener if you bring him.
- Anything with a high number of attacks and the VotLW Stratagem. (Like a big unit of Tzaangors.)
Plus all the other shenanigans we can pull of with psychic powers.
Thousand Sons have plenty of ways to deal with high T targets.
Considering that we can buff all of our vehicles predators, land raiders, mauler/forge fiends etc with prescience/diabolic str etc since they all have the heretic astartes keyword we dont have trouble with high T targets at all anymore..vindicators etc all hitting on 2+s with possible +2 to their str..or put things on a vortex beast..youll make it have str 9, ws 3+, 5 attacks(with 3 hit rolls each using the first melee profile) at -1ap and 1dmg...you can buff it with its own power and basically have 15 str 9 -2ap 1d hits in a fight phase,
Man, now I really want to get my hands on that defiler. I have one on order but it is not coming fast enough!
What are your thoughts on using it as a purely shooting beast vs melee? My initial thoughts were to run it with Scourge+TL heavy bolter just to keep it super cheap, Warptime it up the field and use it like a higher-quality Maulerfiend, but now that its been pointed out that you can use Flickering Flames on that sucker, the twin las/BC/Havoc Launcher build seems pretty tempting. Prescience+Flickering Flames+daemon forge and you're dropping nine wounds on average vs T7 3+.
It does feel like you're largely wasting its melee potential though. Strength 16 dumpsterclaws and the single best model in the game for Warpflame Gargoyles will be sad going unused. Any time you get the first turn (with the +1 nearly every time with how elite we are) you're going to make your opponent very sad dropping every defensive buff on that guy, and any time you don't, he's harder to take down for his points than Magnus.
Yeah defilers are nice for their ability to take all the buffs and do something useful with them. If your only fielding one, I'd got for Twin Las and Scourge. I don't rate the Havoc launcher at all and the ability to smash anything that comes near is well worth losing a few S5 0AP shots for. Great target for both offensive and defensive buffs and few units would want to tangle with it in combat.
Automatically Appended Next Post: More than one and I'd go for the cheap and cheerful version (twin HB and Scourge), advance and fire smoke turn one and you have a hugely versatile weapons platform right in your opponent's grill.
the_scotsman wrote: Man, now I really want to get my hands on that defiler. I have one on order but it is not coming fast enough!
What are your thoughts on using it as a purely shooting beast vs melee? My initial thoughts were to run it with Scourge+TL heavy bolter just to keep it super cheap, Warptime it up the field and use it like a higher-quality Maulerfiend, but now that its been pointed out that you can use Flickering Flames on that sucker, the twin las/BC/Havoc Launcher build seems pretty tempting. Prescience+Flickering Flames+daemon forge and you're dropping nine wounds on average vs T7 3+.
It does feel like you're largely wasting its melee potential though. Strength 16 dumpsterclaws and the single best model in the game for Warpflame Gargoyles will be sad going unused. Any time you get the first turn (with the +1 nearly every time with how elite we are) you're going to make your opponent very sad dropping every defensive buff on that guy, and any time you don't, he's harder to take down for his points than Magnus.
Don't forget that we have Blasphemous Machines. You can move it upfield without reducing it's shooting as long as you're willing to drop the CP on it.
the_scotsman wrote: Man, now I really want to get my hands on that defiler. I have one on order but it is not coming fast enough!
What are your thoughts on using it as a purely shooting beast vs melee? My initial thoughts were to run it with Scourge+TL heavy bolter just to keep it super cheap, Warptime it up the field and use it like a higher-quality Maulerfiend, but now that its been pointed out that you can use Flickering Flames on that sucker, the twin las/BC/Havoc Launcher build seems pretty tempting. Prescience+Flickering Flames+daemon forge and you're dropping nine wounds on average vs T7 3+.
It does feel like you're largely wasting its melee potential though. Strength 16 dumpsterclaws and the single best model in the game for Warpflame Gargoyles will be sad going unused. Any time you get the first turn (with the +1 nearly every time with how elite we are) you're going to make your opponent very sad dropping every defensive buff on that guy, and any time you don't, he's harder to take down for his points than Magnus.
Don't forget that we have Blasphemous Machines. You can move it upfield without reducing it's shooting as long as you're willing to drop the CP on it.
Yep, that was my thought. double-move with warptime, drop Blasphemous Machines and if my buffs all go off drop daemonforge for good measure. And if you dont get first turn, the defiler is pretty much the most efficient defense for the points heavy thing we've got, especially in range of changeling.
Keep in mind diabolic strength doesn't do anything for predators or vindicators. Their ranged weapons have a set strength.
Who would have thought that the defiler would have gone from something other chaos armies go "eh, I have better options" to us going "I will take 2 please" lol.
Yeah, the glamor of Tzeentch and smoke launchers make it very effective at moving up too and not worrying about getting shot at.
Here is a question, do the smoke launchers and glamor make it impossible to hit this guy in overwatch? Smoke say you must subtract 1 from all hit rolls from ranged weapons. Now that's a scary thought. -2 to hit, no overwatch, and super tough in close combat...
So, is there any consensus yet on the best way to prevent Magnus from getting blown off the board on turn 1 if we don't go first? All the defiler talk above suggests one possible answer is "present a target-rich environment" so that Magnus isn't the obvious choice for annihilation, although that can get very pricey very quickly. Are there any other thoughts?
The time has come for Giant Enemy Crab. I'm still on the fence on keep it cheap/give it twin las but I'm definitely feeling its inclusion (I'll magnetize and try it both ways).
My general TAC list seems to be taking shape. I like the 2500 version better than the 2k version, but I think both work.
At 2000 I've got 2 battalions
2x10 rubrics with soulreaper in 2x double combi bolter rhinos
30x tzaangors with brayhorn and blades
Ahriman on Disc
Termie sorc with familiar
double butcher cannon contemptor
Defiler with twin las and scourge
Daemon battalion
Fateskimmer
changeling
15x pinks w/icon
10x brims
10x brims
exalted flamer
at 2.5k I add a foot exalt, 5x SOTs with Hellfyre and Soulreaper, and 6x regular flamers, dropping a couple tzaangors to make points.
good, flexible list with 9x CPs where I can either deep strike a load of stuff into a gunline or set up multiple layers of defense against a fast assault list. Even against Reaperspam Meta Nonsense the intercept stratagem isn't all that effective, only takes out 3 tzaangors on average, and a whole boatload of T3 3+ wounds is surprisingly a really amazing matchup for our massive amounts of low strength high AP single damage firepower.
That's what I thought on overwatch, I just had never considered popping smoke and charging with a vehicle before.
As for Magnus, I don't think even a target rich environment will save him, people simply know to shoot magnus now as a gut reaction to seeing him.
Changling still helps (6+++), but really there isn't a good option except to expect the big shots to be incoming and plan on healing him asap (thanks Temporal distortion!) Assuming he survives first turn.
Has anyone considered taking 2 deamon princes? I realized this morning that it you take a thosand sons one with the warlord trait otherworldly presence and a deamon prince one with the impossible robe you get 2 powerful casters that can hit hard as nails with dual talons and they both get 3++ saves. Khorne deamon princes have nothing on these 2 beasts of change.
Maybe target saturation would work. 2 deamon princes. Magnus. Defiler. Exalted sorcerer and normal sorcerer. Fill the rest with bodies, pink horrors / cultists / rubrics if you want to be "fluffy". That's 4 cc monsters, one that can also be ranged beast mode. Bodies that's can act as alpha strike protection and objective holders. And enough psychic powers to make an eldar player jealous.
God I love this codex. Anyone who puts it on the same level as Grey knights is not looking at the same codex as I am.
Brian888 wrote: So, is there any consensus yet on the best way to prevent Magnus from getting blown off the board on turn 1 if we don't go first? All the defiler talk above suggests one possible answer is "present a target-rich environment" so that Magnus isn't the obvious choice for annihilation, although that can get very pricey very quickly. Are there any other thoughts?
Plop changeling next to him, hope your opponent doesn't have the 28-ish BS3+ lascannons it takes on average to bring him down, and if he does, chalk it up to bad luck and play on?
- Ahriman on Disc. (move 12" and advance)
- Daemon Prince /w Wings, 2x Malefic Talons, Dark Matter Crystal. (move 12" and advance)
- Sorcerer in Terminator Armour /w Helm of the Third Eye, Familiar. (deepstrike)
2000 points, 2 CP remaining ( ), and 84 model's 9,01" away from your opponents deploymentzone in turn 1.
Legal in matched play since only 4/9 units begin the game in reserve, the Rubrics, while deepstriking on turn 1 via DMC, is deployed on the table.
works great, until you dont get first turn and 20 rubrics are standing between your characters and an enemy gunline. Doesn't take too many WOM-bots, basilisks or dark reapers to get through 20 rubrics.
I feel like the reason you see a ton of super duper deep strike bomb alpha strike lists in middle tables at events, and more balanced lists taking the top slots, is probably because alpha strike is much less reliant on player skill and much more reliant on winning that sweet sweet first turn roll.
I am personally not a fan of deep striking our stuff suddenly, the game I played last night I didn't deep strike a single thing, I wanted as many targets on the board as I could.
It's just too easy to block the alpha strike, which is good, to try and focus an entire list on it. If you don't get the 1st Turn where does that leave you?
Azuza001 wrote: If you don't get the 1st Turn where does that leave you?
One quick loss and a rematch?
Lol ok that was funny. That's one point for you.
If I was going to do a deep strike attack it would have to be something tactical, like a squad of rubrics for double tap Inferno bolters. Then if you get charged you can use the crystal to back out and re-double tap. But other than that, I just don't see a good reason for us to keep our units off the field. I could see deep striking pinks in or flamers for support, those things with a tzeentch Herald for support are pretty effective.
I wonder what's more cost effective / useful? 30 Pinks with Herald and Flickering flames or 20 rubrics? Obviously rubrics cost more, but it's worth math hammering out. 318 vs 413. You can drop rubrics to 15 for the same cost. Hmmm.
I faced a knight a couple games ago, I dealt with it by slowing it down for a couple turns with Ahriman casting Doombolt, suicided a nearly-dead daemon prince at it taking off about a half dozen wounds, then finally a round of lascannons from a twin las-brute and a predator and a squad of rubrics double tapping with VOTLW finished it off.
Sounds messy, but it was the bottom of turn 3 and I was basically cobbling together what I had to take it out after the bulk of the fighting had been done. in general lascannons of any variety are optimal for taking knights down, and we've got some pretty solid sources of lascannons.
Don't really have many (any) Knights in my area, but on top of my head:
Diabolic Strenght on the Prince.
General MS-spamm from psychic powers.
VotLW on Tzaangors/Rubrics/SOT's should all do the trick.
Vehicles with T7 and below can be downed with pure weight off fire/attacks.
My last game was with my World Eaters and I barely had any anti-tank other than fists.
I was up against sisters with 9 vehicles (3 Exorcists and 6 Immolators), and I quickly found that simply keeping his tanks in combat (while slowly killing them) did the trick.
With that said, I didn't post this list as a "look, the next winner-list is here!", but more as a "lul, look at how easily we can DS most of our army in 2000 pts."
I have never faced a knight so I don't know personally how to deal with it, but other tanks as I said above our defilers will giggle like school girls once we start casting buffs on it. Hitting on 3's, rerolling 1's, wounding on 2's, and using reroll spell / cp to make the most out of the damage output from its dual laz. And you still get to fire it's battle cannon.
Personal Favorite; I have run this list 3 times so far and quite enjoy it-
Ahriman
Exalted on foot (helm of third eye)
Exalted on foot (dark matter crystal)
20 man unit of rubrics with 4 warp flamers and 2 soul reapers, and warpflame pistol
10 man Rubric with soul reaper
10 man Rubric with soul reaper
Mutalith
Forgefiend (no plasma face)
Defiler (havoc launcher, twin heavy bolter)
Maulerfiend (Lash tenderils)
Played it three times, got 2 wins, 1 Loss, not to shabby.
List runs really well, forces your opponent into D2+ overload considering how much needs D2 to be killed with any level of efficency.
Played it against a khorne marine/daemon list, a sallies MSU spam list, and an Ad Mech list, he admittedly only took 3 of the Dakka-bots....which have slowed damage output for their cost.
Won against the khorne mixed list and the ad mech lists, lost to the sallies. He had a very good list structure and my spell casting *HATED* me that game.
Ahriman21 wrote: Personal Favorite; I have run this list 3 times so far and quite enjoy it-
Ahriman
Exalted on foot (helm of third eye)
Exalted on foot (dark matter crystal)
20 man unit of rubrics with 4 warp flamers and 2 soul reapers, and warpflame pistol
10 man Rubric with soul reaper
10 man Rubric with soul reaper
Mutalith
Forgefiend (no plasma face)
Defiler (havoc launcher, twin heavy bolter)
Maulerfiend (Lash tenderils)
Played it three times, got 2 wins, 1 Loss, not to shabby.
List runs really well, forces your opponent into D2+ overload considering how much needs D2 to be killed with any level of efficency.
Played it against a khorne marine/daemon list, a sallies MSU spam list, and an Ad Mech list, he admittedly only took 3 of the Dakka-bots....which have slowed damage output for their cost.
Won against the khorne mixed list and the ad mech lists, lost to the sallies. He had a very good list structure and my spell casting *HATED* me that game.
That's pretty interesting, it's pretty close to the list I took this weekend in some respects. Was Ahriman on foot? What spells did you find you used the most? How did your defiler do?
Oh and I say you get 2 wins for tzeentch beating khorne, that guy has no style lol.
To clarify the big blob of rubrics deepstrikes with Weaver of Fates on the sorcerer.
On disc for Ahriman, Generally the defilers (all the daemon engines really) tend to do great work, they DO hit less....but do we really care?
I barely even notice, we have so many buffs to toss out, so many ways of force-multiplying, a Disco-Predator might be more impressive by itself for damage output....and then 1 las cannon hits it and hits out of commission.....
The daemon engines tend to not only last longer, get their saves more frequently (5++ invul) AND are guaranteed to get health back each turn. It creates a huge pain for your opponent to deal with and the tend to outlive tanks. add that to me having 4 of them in this list.... It tends to be a target overload in 2k games.
your defiler build confuses me, admittedly. The Havoc Launcher is just so underperforming, you may as well take the scourge which ups your melee by a ton, and then at that point, you've got yourself a melee build. And if you're going pure shooting, you want twin las every time.
With all your hqs on foot how do you get a guy out to Warptime the rubrics? I'd swap one exalt for a termie sorc. The crystal one, and leave it on him, so you can guarantee he'll be in position to use it on the rubrics if someone closes with them the turn after you drop them in.
are your 10 man squads in rhinos? what's the mutalith for here?
So what are people thinking for melee enlightened? Chainsword+pistol nets you an extra melee attack each turn and a shooting attack, seems like a decent choice if you don't want to kill multiwound infantry/tanks.
I think I prefer them as a shooting unit myself, given I've got a fair number of melee units already in my list, but I was curious.
SilverAlien wrote: So what are people thinking for melee enlightened? Chainsword+pistol nets you an extra melee attack each turn and a shooting attack, seems like a decent choice if you don't want to kill multiwound infantry/tanks.
I think I prefer them as a shooting unit myself, given I've got a fair number of melee units already in my list, but I was curious.
I don't think there's any contest, I'd never take them with chainswords. if I want them for melee, I'd take spears (but given how much I have to dedicate to buffing them, I think I'd usually go for Screamers instead as they're very similar and require less babysitting), if I want them for shooting, I'd take bows.
Taking chainswords feels like a waste of their fancy autowound roll thing.
SilverAlien wrote: So what are people thinking for melee enlightened? Chainsword+pistol nets you an extra melee attack each turn and a shooting attack, seems like a decent choice if you don't want to kill multiwound infantry/tanks.
I think I prefer them as a shooting unit myself, given I've got a fair number of melee units already in my list, but I was curious.
I don't think there's any contest, I'd never take them with chainswords. if I want them for melee, I'd take spears (but given how much I have to dedicate to buffing them, I think I'd usually go for Screamers instead as they're very similar and require less babysitting), if I want them for shooting, I'd take bows.
Taking chainswords feels like a waste of their fancy autowound roll thing.
SilverAlien wrote: So what are people thinking for melee enlightened? Chainsword+pistol nets you an extra melee attack each turn and a shooting attack, seems like a decent choice if you don't want to kill multiwound infantry/tanks.
I think I prefer them as a shooting unit myself, given I've got a fair number of melee units already in my list, but I was curious.
I don't think there's any contest, I'd never take them with chainswords. if I want them for melee, I'd take spears (but given how much I have to dedicate to buffing them, I think I'd usually go for Screamers instead as they're very similar and require less babysitting), if I want them for shooting, I'd take bows.
Taking chainswords feels like a waste of their fancy autowound roll thing.
CS is slightly better than spears against single wound MEQ and a good bit better against GEQ.
If 9 w/ shaman and prescience support make it into combat they'll kill 17 GEQ. Spears would kill 10 or 11.
You'd probably get more mileage out of a mutalith giving them AP1 and/or +1S as well since the force multiplier is 50% greater. They'd still be worse at hurting tanks, but if you need to fill an infantry killing role they could be quite handy.
SilverAlien wrote: So what are people thinking for melee enlightened? Chainsword+pistol nets you an extra melee attack each turn and a shooting attack, seems like a decent choice if you don't want to kill multiwound infantry/tanks.
I think I prefer them as a shooting unit myself, given I've got a fair number of melee units already in my list, but I was curious.
For melee Enlightened I'd always go for the spears.
Spears allows them to kill tanks/monsters/characters, while Chainswords allows them to...kill light infantry, which they're already pretty good at with spears, and are even better at with bows.
So basically I'm saying, if you want to go after light infantry, give them bows, not chainswords.
As for Spears vs. Bows, I couldn't decide (both options are good but in entirely different ways) so I opted to get 9 of each.
the_scotsman wrote: your defiler build confuses me, admittedly. The Havoc Launcher is just so underperforming, you may as well take the scourge which ups your melee by a ton, and then at that point, you've got yourself a melee build. And if you're going pure shooting, you want twin las every time.
With all your hqs on foot how do you get a guy out to Warptime the rubrics? I'd swap one exalt for a termie sorc. The crystal one, and leave it on him, so you can guarantee he'll be in position to use it on the rubrics if someone closes with them the turn after you drop them in.
are your 10 man squads in rhinos? what's the mutalith for here?
So the 10 men units begin on the table, usually. No rhinos for this list, cant afford it. Generally I have found they survive well enough but if theres a paritcularly brutal list they will hug cover and soak shots.
usually my local FLGS plays tactical objectives, most of those will require you to move out anyway so me getting clsoer isnt a partiularly big deal, I have never had an issue getting in range for warp time and dark matter crystal. as of yet anyway!
The terminator sorcerer would also be an idea I could swap for, most definitely.
The Defiler is more or less a tough nut to crack with "decent" shooting, I cant afford the Las cannon on it in this current list build (Also built it with the heavy bolter) its putting out huge numbers of shots for relatively low cost, and I keep getting good hits with the cannon, 4+ to hit re-rolling 1's aint awful.
To preface this I have NOT yet played against an army such as tank spam guard, anything below T8 I dont even worry about all that much. If its t8 with one model I can handle that. anything beyond that........This list will *probably* struggle, thank god for Vets of the Long War. So far the list has performed well.
The Mutalith is a bit of an oddity; I mainly use it as a melee buffer behind the line, an aura-pulse to dish out mortals (MSU spam is a regular thing with tons of lists in my meta so that pulse-mortal wound aura is phenomenal.) If it happens to make rubrics competent in melee? thats fine by me. Its super undercosted for what it can do and is legitimately hard to deal with if youve got 3 other daemon engines on the table so it has worked as of yet, though I definitely get the idea that there may be better options I am debating "what" exactly I can get for the 150 I have left over.
For melee Enlightened I'd always go for the spears.
Spears allows them to kill tanks/monsters/characters, while Chainswords allows them to...kill light infantry, which they're already pretty good at with spears, and are even better at with bows.
So basically I'm saying, if you want to go after light infantry, give them bows, not chainswords.
As for Spears vs. Bows, I couldn't decide (both options are good but in entirely different ways) so I opted to get 9 of each.
With only two S5 AP1 shots the bows are equivalent to spears at killing light infantry - worse than chainswords. I'm not advocating them as a top choice, but I just want to be rigorous about the analysis for those looking to fill a role.
With only two S5 AP1 shots the bows are equivalent to spears at killing light infantry - worse than chainswords. I'm not advocating them as a top choice, but I just want to be rigorous about the analysis for those looking to fill a role.
Yes the bows by themselves are worse, but then we add their 3 regular S4 attacks in close combat on top. You shoot and then you charge, with the chainswords you mostly just charge (beware the autopistols...)
We're comparing their performance in assault after all.
With only two S5 AP1 shots the bows are equivalent to spears at killing light infantry - worse than chainswords. I'm not advocating them as a top choice, but I just want to be rigorous about the analysis for those looking to fill a role.
Yes the bows by themselves are worse, but then we add their 3 regular S4 attacks in close combat on top. You shoot and then you charge, with the chainswords you mostly just charge (beware the autopistols...)
We're comparing their performance in assault after all.
I would think you'd want to keep bows out of combat as much as possible, but then I remembered you can fly. So I suppose that is a legitimate consideration.
Hi, I'm starting a 1k sons army and had a question about the SoT loadout. Can the missile rack and the soulreaper be put on the same model? In the codex it just states that one Scarab can take the cannon and one Scarab can take the missiles, not another...
SilverAlien wrote: So what are people thinking for melee enlightened? Chainsword+pistol nets you an extra melee attack each turn and a shooting attack, seems like a decent choice if you don't want to kill multiwound infantry/tanks.
I think I prefer them as a shooting unit myself, given I've got a fair number of melee units already in my list, but I was curious.
I don't think there's any contest, I'd never take them with chainswords. if I want them for melee, I'd take spears (but given how much I have to dedicate to buffing them, I think I'd usually go for Screamers instead as they're very similar and require less babysitting), if I want them for shooting, I'd take bows.
Taking chainswords feels like a waste of their fancy autowound roll thing.
CS is slightly better than spears against single wound MEQ and a good bit better against GEQ.
If 9 w/ shaman and prescience support make it into combat they'll kill 17 GEQ. Spears would kill 10 or 11.
You'd probably get more mileage out of a mutalith giving them AP1 and/or +1S as well since the force multiplier is 50% greater. They'd still be worse at hurting tanks, but if you need to fill an infantry killing role they could be quite handy.
I guess my question is: what thousand sons list needs help clearing GEQ and single wound MEQ? Also, why would you not take Bows if you want that role? Its tanks that our basic troops struggle with, and its tanks that I'm primarily going to be focused on with nearly all the points I spend on non-psyker/troop units.
This is not to say Enlightened are particularly bad at the anti tank role. On the contrary, when buffed they're really solid. But I like screamers for a few reasons, both game-based and not:
1) Buffed by a model I'm already going to be taking (Fateskimmer, who gives me valuable tzeentch powers, good close combat, and a buff to my tzeentch shooting units) VS buffed by a different model I must spend 85 points on
2) Buffed by a spell I don't particularly need on anything else (Boon of Change) VS buffed by a spell that's highly valuable on many other units (prescience)
3) On a completely gameplay-unrelated note, I like the models better AND theyre far less expensive to collect because 1 screamer ~2 enlightened in terms of points and quality.
I do know that fully buffed up, enlightened are pretty much superior to screamers damage-wise per the point against all the targets they'll likely be hunting.
Alkorus wrote: Hi, I'm starting a 1k sons army and had a question about the SoT loadout. Can the missile rack and the soulreaper be put on the same model? In the codex it just states that one Scarab can take the cannon and one Scarab can take the missiles, not another...
As far as I know yes, you can take both on ones model.
the_scotsman wrote: your defiler build confuses me, admittedly. The Havoc Launcher is just so underperforming, you may as well take the scourge which ups your melee by a ton, and then at that point, you've got yourself a melee build. And if you're going pure shooting, you want twin las every time.
With all your hqs on foot how do you get a guy out to Warptime the rubrics? I'd swap one exalt for a termie sorc. The crystal one, and leave it on him, so you can guarantee he'll be in position to use it on the rubrics if someone closes with them the turn after you drop them in.
are your 10 man squads in rhinos? what's the mutalith for here?
So the 10 men units begin on the table, usually. No rhinos for this list, cant afford it. Generally I have found they survive well enough but if theres a paritcularly brutal list they will hug cover and soak shots.
usually my local FLGS plays tactical objectives, most of those will require you to move out anyway so me getting clsoer isnt a partiularly big deal, I have never had an issue getting in range for warp time and dark matter crystal. as of yet anyway!
The terminator sorcerer would also be an idea I could swap for, most definitely.
The Defiler is more or less a tough nut to crack with "decent" shooting, I cant afford the Las cannon on it in this current list build (Also built it with the heavy bolter) its putting out huge numbers of shots for relatively low cost, and I keep getting good hits with the cannon, 4+ to hit re-rolling 1's aint awful.
To preface this I have NOT yet played against an army such as tank spam guard, anything below T8 I dont even worry about all that much. If its t8 with one model I can handle that. anything beyond that........This list will *probably* struggle, thank god for Vets of the Long War. So far the list has performed well.
The Mutalith is a bit of an oddity; I mainly use it as a melee buffer behind the line, an aura-pulse to dish out mortals (MSU spam is a regular thing with tons of lists in my meta so that pulse-mortal wound aura is phenomenal.) If it happens to make rubrics competent in melee? thats fine by me. Its super undercosted for what it can do and is legitimately hard to deal with if youve got 3 other daemon engines on the table so it has worked as of yet, though I definitely get the idea that there may be better options I am debating "what" exactly I can get for the 150 I have left over.
Defiler with Lazer cannon and prescience and Flickering flames next to chaos deamon prince hits on 3's, rerolls 1's, and wounds all vehicles on 2's. Add another sorcerer there to cast the healing spell and the - 1 to hit or the +1 to invulnerable and it becomes very hard to kill and able to kill vehicles easy. I run mind that way with a forgefiend next to it as backup. That forces your opponent to either put a ton of shots into it and hope for the best, ignore it and lose a vehicle a turn, or try and get close and then be slaughtered by its great big crab claws of doom. If you can I would ask your opponent if he would be OK with you trying the hb's as Las cannons and give it a shot. I have not faced a guard or marine parking lot yet but the last game I played I did face 2 preds and 2 rhinos. Pred 1 got blown away by defiler turn 1, pred 2 did 4 wounds back that got healed then also died to defiler and forgefiend, then the rhinos ran away because they had no chance of surviving which they did not.
Guard tank armies will be a very tough matchup for tsons, I’d say we are genuinely strong against most other lists in the meta but t8 spam is just a very steep hill to climb, Magnus could do it but getting past screens and clever deployment is hard without the opponent taking a big chunk of his wounds off!
The other bad matchup is flyrant spam, -1 to cast and all that smite and then the stratagem that makes us roll that key power on d6!
Reading the community Tzaangor article and he mentions having your big squad of birds charge one unit so that you can pile into others. I was under the impression once you kill an enemy unit you can't pile in and tie down another unit that you had to stay at least 1" away?
nintura wrote: Reading the community Tzaangor article and he mentions having your big squad of birds charge one unit so that you can pile into others. I was under the impression once you kill an enemy unit you can't pile in and tie down another unit that you had to stay at least 1" away?
Not in the slightest. You are prevented from moving within 1" of an enemy unit when you move in the movement phase...but that's it.
Any other movement, piling in, consolidating, or exploding out of someone's tiny flesh cage eager to get your new Spawn pseudopods a-tentacleizin', allows you to freely move into melee combat with zero overwatch involved.
Of course, there is the consideration that you're not allowed to select someone you didn't declare a target of your charge to actually attack them, and if you do get within 1" then they can select that unit to fight in the fight phase, but if you're a scarab terminator and you're sure as heck not going to die or your target is a tank or something, then you do that thang.
This is why I've quite seriously been bringing reinforcement spawn with my lists, the ability to pop someone with Gift of Chaos and immediately summon the spawn into combat with a nearby unit with no overwatch is god damned amazing utility. Really the only thing holding that spell back was the 6" range (its 12" for us) and the unreliability, which you've got gaze of fate for, baby.
nintura wrote: Reading the community Tzaangor article and he mentions having your big squad of birds charge one unit so that you can pile into others. I was under the impression once you kill an enemy unit you can't pile in and tie down another unit that you had to stay at least 1" away?
No. Not at all.
What you cant do is fight a unit you didn't charge that turn
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ninja'd and the spawn thing sound ace.
Usually true as you can only fight a unit you’ve charged but the stratagem basically allows you to give that unit a second fight phase so the unit won’t technically have charged for the purposes of the second fight, you just treat it as a unit that fights after all the other units have fought.
So at the end of the fight phase you pile in your Tzaangors 3” and fight what’s in range.
Guyver 3 wrote: Guard tank armies will be a very tough matchup for tsons, I’d say we are genuinely strong against most other lists in the meta but t8 spam is just a very steep hill to climb, Magnus could do it but getting past screens and clever deployment is hard without the opponent taking a big chunk of his wounds off!
The other bad matchup is flyrant spam, -1 to cast and all that smite and then the stratagem that makes us roll that key power on d6!
Nasty...
I just handled a guard tank army with 12 enlightened with bows (auto wounding on 4s, hitting on 2s with 2 shots each=lots of wounds getting through even when people get to roll saves), some predators, and a dreadnaught, tanks have always been annoying for TS but they arent nearly as they were pre codex...also watching a guard player quietly rage inside as their tanks got killed by bows and arrows was amazing
Guyver 3 wrote: Usually true as you can only fight a unit you’ve charged but the stratagem basically allows you to give that unit a second fight phase so the unit won’t technically have charged for the purposes of the second fight, you just treat it as a unit that fights after all the other units have fought.
So at the end of the fight phase you pile in your Tzaangors 3” and fight what’s in range.
Guyver 3 wrote: Usually true as you can only fight a unit you’ve charged but the stratagem basically allows you to give that unit a second fight phase so the unit won’t technically have charged for the purposes of the second fight, you just treat it as a unit that fights after all the other units have fought.
So at the end of the fight phase you pile in your Tzaangors 3” and fight what’s in range.
Is this right?
No, it isn't. A unit that charged is still considered to have charged that turn when they fight again because it's still the same fight phase.
Guyver 3 wrote: Guard tank armies will be a very tough matchup for tsons, I’d say we are genuinely strong against most other lists in the meta but t8 spam is just a very steep hill to climb, Magnus could do it but getting past screens and clever deployment is hard without the opponent taking a big chunk of his wounds off!
The other bad matchup is flyrant spam, -1 to cast and all that smite and then the stratagem that makes us roll that key power on d6!
Nasty...
I just handled a guard tank army with 12 enlightened with bows (auto wounding on 4s, hitting on 2s with 2 shots each=lots of wounds getting through even when people get to roll saves), some predators, and a dreadnaught, tanks have always been annoying for TS but they arent nearly as they were pre codex...also watching a guard player quietly rage inside as their tanks got killed by bows and arrows was amazing
Rubric sorcerer cast glamour of tzeentch
Dp cast prescience and warp time
Shaman +1 to hit and cast weaver of fates
Herald of tzeench +1 inv stratagem (+1 st if in range)
Mutilath beast +1 ap 9 enlightened
Those enlightened are now
-1 to hit
Move 24”
Hitting on 2+ rerolling 1’s
Every 4+ is an auto wound
St5 ap-2 2d
T4 3++ 2w
And they can fight twice!
Rubric sorcerer cast glamour of tzeentch
Dp cast prescience and warp time
Shaman +1 to hit and cast weaver of fates
Herald of tzeench +1 inv stratagem (+1 st if in range)
Mutilath beast +1 ap 9 enlightened
Those enlightened are now
-1 to hit
Move 24”
Hitting on 2+ rerolling 1’s
Every 4+ is an auto wound
St5 ap-2 2d
T4 3++ 2w
And they can fight twice!
And they are cheap!
Yeah, but your 135 point unit still needs a Demon Prince, Sorcerer, Mutalith, Shaman and Herald to buff them, and apart from that you are spending 3 CP's and a detachment for your tzeench daemons.
The characters aren’t just buffing the one unit with good deployment and deep striking the majority of the units will be buffed while also protecting the characters and still get to hit hard in either shooting or fight phase!
), and 84 model's 9,01" away from your opponents deploymentzone in turn 1.
