Mantic subforum on this site, it's the very top thing right now.

 Eilif wrote:
Actually the mantic figs look worse. I've just painted up a batch of the "Battlemasters" figures you're describing. They are monopose and chunky heroic and the detail level is similar. However, the proportions are great, and the sculpts neatly done.

That's incorrect. The Men At Arms are bad, but I'm looking at them right now. The Men At Arms are far, far superior in terms of tooling and crispness of detail compared to the Battlemasters figures. Additionally, the Battlemasters figures are actually less proportionate, as the Empire infantry would all be roughly 4'6" tall in 28mm scale, though properly wide. Are you just comparing pictures, or are you physically comparing them? Because there's no comparison, the Men At Arms (whilst gakky) tooling is superior to the Battlemasters tooling.

I don't know, I looked at them both side by side, and I think that the Battlemasters figures are actually better (at least the tooling). The details are definitely sharper, and the chain is a lot better. The proportions on the battlemaster figures are at least cohesive for squat little humans. The upper arm length on the MAA is all over the place, as is the length of the forearms.

That being said, it isn't really doing Mantic any favors to have their newest completely crowd funded hard plastic sprue being compared to figures from a board game released over 20 years ago.

In fact, I have no desire to interact with a company in any way that would fly their CEO to China to inspect these sprues, decide to release them anyway, and even have the temerity to ask their backers for more money for them knowing how bad they were. Why hold out for quality when everything is already paid for and you have another million dollar pre-order campaign to run?

If I had backed Deadzone (thank goodness I didn't), I would be trying to get a refund based off the MAA sprues alone. Think those plastic Enforcers are going to turn out great? Yeah...

Could we move the discussion about the M@A to the appropriate forum now please as it is neither news or rumours.

Just a very quick note that I took a trip to Mantic towers today and saw the greens for a very lovely looking Beserker lord on brock. Much more of an rearing/vicious pose than the current ones and looking great. Unfortunately I wasn't allowed to get a photo of it.

I was, however, able to get a photo of the WIP WIP WIP WIP Ogre Warlock. I repeat this is a WORK IN PROGRESS AND IS NOT ANYWHERE CLOSE TO BEING FINAL.



Apologies for the blurryness, my camera did not want to focus on it.

...The day after I ordered something to replace it with, assuming Mantic's customary gaps in the line would remain for a year or two in that list, of course. Oh well, more variety the merrier

Two more bodies in that style and some "made for bashin' " arms and we have the berserker braves done. Okay, that's a bit wishful perhaps

That thing to the right, is that the first gen DZ Plague model?

Mantic's Ogres are sweet. The pic's blurry but I think that model will fit in well. Thanks for sharing it!

 Bolognesus wrote:
...The day after I ordered something to replace it with, assuming Mantic's customary gaps in the line would remain for a year or two in that list, of course. Oh well, more variety the merrier

Two more bodies in that style and some "made for bashin' " arms and we have the berserker braves done. Okay, that's a bit wishful perhaps

That thing to the right, is that the first gen DZ Plague model?

That thing to the right is the first gen alt sculpt. Lovely model!

Also, that sculpt is a long, long way from release. I was told that it might not even get a release if it's not up to scratch, but I thought it was.

Daedleh wrote:

Also, that sculpt is a long, long way from release. I was told that it might not even get a release if it's not up to scratch, but I thought it was.

lol - suuuure it won't.

Seriously though - like all of Mantic's Ogres it looks pretty nice.

Not up to scratch?

It is already better than the vast majority of everything else that came out of the KoW KS!

 Alpharius wrote:
Not up to scratch?

It is already better than the vast majority of everything else that came out of the KoW KS!

I agree. But potentially not up to scratch versus their standard for Deadzone. A lot of the KS stuff was way, way before their current standards and quality control. The Beserker lord I saw was up to Deadzone quality and I've every reason to believe that Mantic are going to be holding that level of quality going forward. I reckon 2014 will be the year when Mantic stop being seen as "cheap" and start being seen as "quality at excellent prices".

I'd like to believe that, but the problem as scarletsquig has pointed out is that they said the same thing after their horrible goblin sprues. And, despite the MaA sprues being horrible and their admitting so, they released them anyway!

Still, like I said, I'd like to believe . I love the Deadzone sculpts so far, for the most part, which is surprising to me. We'll see if the molding issues truly are worked out... personally, I am wary of believing that a good looking sculpt will result in a good looking molded part at this point, though.

Mantic should call up WGF and get some advice from them on how to get things to work right in plastic!

Deadzone will be the litmus test on how well Mantic has improved. It will be the last straw if they haven't.

sparkywtf wrote:
Mantic should call up WGF and get some advice from them on how to get things to work right in plastic!

Deadzone will be the litmus test on how well Mantic has improved. It will be the last straw if they haven't.

Agreed on all counts!

I personally have WAY too much in this one - if the pull a KoW on this one... whoo boy!

I'm only in on DeadZone for a tiny amount. If they can actually show some consistent finished quality for a change, I might go in properly in the next survey.

Ogre Warlock looks lovely, it doesn't look even slightly WIP or "not up to scratch" to me, it looks great.

I hope it doesn't end up being unreleased, Mantic has a lot of stuff like that knocking around, like these orc archers that must have been sculpted about 3 years ago, along with some extra head and weapon variants that didn't make the cut:



And then there's that hens-teeth Dwarf king sculpt that was released only via a very brief Wayland Games promotion about a year ago.

I'm sure it'll all get a release eventually, but probably not before 2015. Just when you think the release schedule can't get anymore packed, it becomes more packed! They've moved to a 2-week release window for new releases, Loka was released in the middle of this month and there will be another release at the end of the month for the new elves, then tons more stuff for Dreadball season 3, then some more KoW KS stuff, then deadzone.

There's already way too much to be released even before taking Mars Attacks into account (which should be pretty quick and easy for Mantic, at least... using the same template as Deadzone means a lot of the hard work is already done).

They're certainly good at volume, and might overtake GW in terms of output within the space of a year or so, since they're basically a leaner version of GW that doesn't have all the overheads and can get on with releasing as many minis as possible as quickly as possible.

It has been hinted that a second KoW Kickstarter is likely to be next after Mars Attacks, Ronnie wants to get a couple of new armies and some big monsters done alongside filling out the existing ranges.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
Actually the mantic figs look worse. I've just painted up a batch of the "Battlemasters" figures you're describing. They are monopose and chunky heroic and the detail level is similar. However, the proportions are great, and the sculpts neatly done.

That's incorrect. The Men At Arms are bad, but I'm looking at them right now. The Men At Arms are far, far superior in terms of tooling and crispness of detail compared to the Battlemasters figures. Additionally, the Battlemasters figures are actually less proportionate, as the Empire infantry would all be roughly 4'6" tall in 28mm scale, though properly wide. Are you just comparing pictures, or are you physically comparing them? Because there's no comparison, the Men At Arms (whilst gakky) tooling is superior to the Battlemasters tooling.

As for height, they aren't modern 28mm figs. They are what was called "Heroic 25mm" back then.

As to proportion, it's a matter of the style of BM figs. They and like similar Heroic 25mm figs of that era (GW, old glory, Foundry) they are round and chunky. They are very close copies (legal copies) of the Warhammer MaA figs of that time. However, that's intentional and the various parts of the body are in proportion to themselves. None of that monkey arm or tiny head issues that the MaA.

Now they do have their downsides, the tooling -while pretty crisp- Is more for game pieces, so there are some pretty large flat areas, and the sprue attachment points are not always in the most convenient locations. And there's the issue of them all being single pose miniatures. Still, I feel like BM figures are much better executed overall and feel like a finished, cohesive product. I can't say the same for mantic's MaA.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Had a problem where one of my horses was so badly warped that I couldn't do the hot water trick. And boy, did I try. The bodies aren't thin though, and it just wasn't having any modifications. I haven't noticed getting any extra horses, so a quick email was sent out to Mantic for a replacement horse side. Hopefully the rest of my order hadn't gone out and they were able to just stuff it in there.

Hm. I've got a lot of cavalry, a lot of it was warped, and some quite badly - and no plans to assemble any of it immediately. It'll be interesting to see if they stand by their product when I get around to trying to assemble them in 6 months or a year's time. (It took a year+ to get the figures - I'm not going to rush through them all in a month, after all...)

 Eilif wrote:

As for height, they aren't modern 28mm figs. They are what was called "Heroic 25mm" back then.

As to proportion, it's a matter of the style of BM figs. They and like similar Heroic 25mm figs of that era (GW, old glory, Foundry) they are round and chunky. They are very close copies (legal copies) of the Warhammer MaA figs of that time. However, that's intentional and the various parts of the body are in proportion to themselves. None of that monkey arm or tiny head issues that the MaA.

Now they do have their downsides, the tooling -while pretty crisp- Is more for game pieces, so there are some pretty large flat areas, and the sprue attachment points are not always in the most convenient locations. And there's the issue of them all being single pose miniatures. Still, I feel like BM figures are much better executed overall and feel like a finished, cohesive product. I can't say the same for mantic's MaA.

Oh, I am very aware of Battlemasters figures; I used to use them to play Warhammer with back in the mid 90's. I also have at least two hundred lead Empire soldiers from 3rd/4th edition of Warhammer, including the weapon-plug ones (halberdiers, crossbowmen, sword/shield) and at least 50 of the old Citadel adventurers/townsfolk/mercenaries etc. The Battlemasters figures are too short and squat and are not in proportion to any miniature range that existed (they are, as you say, 25mm to the eye; however, all the Citadel slotta-era-figures are 28mm); they are in proportion only to the Hero Quest figures including the UK-only expansions (I would assume they were sculpted by the same person). Though, nowadays, using them with current Warhammer figures would give you skinny halflings.

I do agree that they are quite nice for boardgame pieces; but in terms of using them outside of Battlemastes, while the Halberdiers are certainly acceptable, the crossbowmen and archers were pretty bad (their faces are almost nonexistent) and the beastmen were atrocious. The knights, however, were great and could easily fit into even current armies, especially the excellent horses.

Regardless, the original point was that the Mantic Men At Arms look worse and that Battlemasters had great proportions. Owning both of them I can certainly see that the Men At Arms are much crisper and have sharper detail and the Battlemasters figures are not proportionate to anything but themselves. But, again, while the Men At Arms are nice and sharply defined, it's like nice and sharply defined gak.

The pics of MaA do not look "nice and sharply defined" to me. Even "nice and sharply defined gak". Maybe the pics aren't doing the molding justice, but I haven't seen others posting that the casts are great, judgedoug.

Regardless, this would be the epitome of the expression "polishing a turd" imo... there's really no defending those models. Better to move on and hope Mantic redeems themselves with Deadzone... but saying "they're not as bad as these other crappy figs" doesn't mean much

 RiTides wrote:
The pics of MaA do not look "nice and sharply defined" to me. Even "nice and sharply defined gak". Maybe the pics aren't doing the molding justice, but I haven't seen others posting that the casts are great, judgedoug.

Regardless, this would be the epitome of the expression "polishing a turd" imo... there's really no defending those models. Better to move on and hope Mantic redeems themselves with Deadzone... but saying "they're not as bad as these other crappy figs" doesn't mean much

Yeah, I thought they were pretty mushy until I got my KS shipment. They're sharper than the pics look (remember, they're being blown up several times on your monitor), and they are very definitely sharper than Battlemasters figures. I still dislike them which is why I've just gotten rid of them, lol.

Okay as long as we're clear on that

On to other things...!

Mantic is the world leader of "it looks better in person".

Wish they had released those Orc archers! I wonder if an official mini of those will ever come along?

^ Yeah would have been awesome.

Sadly, I'm not sure if they'll be able to release them now that they're not using Renedra for tooling anymore, and they can't really fund the tooling via KS due to the 18-month lead times that Renedra requires, it would have to be done from their own pocket.

While I'm not the greatest fan of Mantic's orcs, I don't see why regular (ie: non-kickstarted) releases are an impossibility for them.

 scarletsquig wrote:
^ Yeah would have been awesome.

Sadly, I'm not sure if they'll be able to release them now that they're not using Renedra for tooling anymore, and they can't really fund the tooling via KS due to the 18-month lead times that Renedra requires, it would have to be done from their own pocket.

3-month lead time. Perry Bros have stated Renedra goes from submitting the 3-ups to finished sprue within 3 months.

That's aside from the reportedly long waiting list for a time slot in their production lines though, isn't it?

 Bolognesus wrote:
That's aside from the reportedly long waiting list for a time slot in their production lines though, isn't it?

Apparently not anymore. the 3 months is submission ('here's the 3ups, Renedra!') to completion ('thanks for the pile of sprues, Renedra!').

But they are expensive. Which is probably the overriding concern.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:
That's aside from the reportedly long waiting list for a time slot in their production lines though, isn't it?

Apparently not anymore. the 3 months is submission ('here's the 3ups, Renedra!') to completion ('thanks for the pile of sprues, Renedra!').

But they are expensive. Which is probably the overriding concern.

I wonder what the sales difference would have been if the goblins were well-tooled and the sprues a bit more full (let's say including the other two weapon options). Stylistically, I think the goblins are as good as anything on the market, and they would be the clear best hard plastic goblins (considering night goblins different) on the market.

decker_cky wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:
That's aside from the reportedly long waiting list for a time slot in their production lines though, isn't it?

Apparently not anymore. the 3 months is submission ('here's the 3ups, Renedra!') to completion ('thanks for the pile of sprues, Renedra!').

But they are expensive. Which is probably the overriding concern.

I wonder what the sales difference would have been if the goblins were well-tooled and the sprues a bit more full (let's say including the other two weapon options). Stylistically, I think the goblins are as good as anything on the market, and they would be the clear best hard plastic goblins (considering night goblins different) on the market.

I'm assuming they paid maybe a couple grand for the current sprues (milling steel is expensive no matter how crappy the final product is). Everyone has heard tales of Renedra's expensiveness, 20-40,000 GBP for sprues depending on size, but they do deliver quality.
Defiance mentioned at one point the UAMC sprue cost US$25,000 made at a place in Ohio or whatever. So I'd say that's about the correct price for a sprue in the US or UK.
Which is why Wargames Factory's ~$10k prices are appealing, what with Chinese labor and all.

I agree with you, their goblins are just the best designs, straight up. If they were to reinvest in them, get the sculptor to do a proper 3up and have a proper sprue, Fireforge-sized, with 5 bodies, say 8-10 heads, 5 spears w/arms, 5 swords w/arms, 5 bows w/arms, 5 left arms for shields, 5 right arms for bow dudes, 5 quivers, 5 shields, standard w/ 2 different toppers, horn and drums, and some greeblies (dead goblins? baby mawbeast?) to mirror their Elf/Undead/Dwarf sprues, jeez, I'd probably buy another 200 of them and I already OWN 200 of their current ones! lol

I agree with you completely, and it's not like its something that only large companies can do. You've already pointed out Fireforge, I've got a load of the Warlord plastics (their Hail Caesar range) and those are fantastic. Perfectly suitable level of detail, posable with a range of options, and fit/rank together well. I haven't first-hand experience, but I've heard Perry miniatures are the same.

What's disappointing here is that Mantic had a real opportunity to do something special, as there simply aren't that many fantasy ranges out there for mass combat systems. Things might not have come together (and I'm guessing they have to do a hell of a lot of balancing acts to maintain with supply, production, design etc... sure Ronnie had some more grey in his hair last time I saw pictures of him), but surely at some point they have to begin scoring higher?

The problem is that their current funding model gives them zero incentives to produce quality products. Everything is paid for upfront, and gamers seem remarkably willing to give somebody money for a model that "could be awesome." The MAA would never have seen the light of day if they hadn't already been pre-sold. People still dumped money into Deadzone even when it was apparent that Mantic produced about 50% slag for the KoW kickstarter. Mars attacks will be the same.

I seem to recall that the greens popping up for KoW when Deadzone was out looked promising. Maybe I'm blurring timelines though.
I do remember being pleasantly surprised by the initial ogre, troll and paladin greens in particular.

I can't imagine that they won't start to feel the reprecussions of "mixed" quality work, even in their crowdfunding. They can't be solely funded by Kickstarters, they need the kits that those produced to then sell for years to come.
Although Defiance games has been churning out incredibly late lumpy garbage for years and they'll probably pull in $50k for a grainy egg robot, so clearly gamers will throw money at anything.

On the other hand, part of me is thinking.

"They've sold a tonne of stuff through kickstarter, fair enough.... Now where's all the money they're making through their normal sales going?"

 Compel wrote:

"They've sold a tonne of stuff through kickstarter, fair enough.... Now where's all the money they're making through their normal sales going?"

"They've sold a tonne of stuff through kickstarter, fair enough.... Now are they making money through their normal sales?"

They seem to be quite proud of the number of dreadball sets they've sold compared to the kickstarter.

That's without mentioning the still strong undead sales, or the Imperial Guard players starting corporation armies.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:
That's aside from the reportedly long waiting list for a time slot in their production lines though, isn't it?

Apparently not anymore. the 3 months is submission ('here's the 3ups, Renedra!') to completion ('thanks for the pile of sprues, Renedra!').

But they are expensive. Which is probably the overriding concern.

Well, we've seen what "cheaper" gets you. gakky models that they're uphappy with, not willing to show yet were willing to take people's money for, and excuses meted out third-hand on the internet. "Ronnie told me, but they swore me to secrecy - but it's totally not their fault." (that they shipped substandard models to people anyway, damaging their already-shaky reputation further, for years to come...)

Which one's the better investment in your business for the long term?

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Compel wrote:

"They've sold a tonne of stuff through kickstarter, fair enough.... Now where's all the money they're making through their normal sales going?"

"They've sold a tonne of stuff through kickstarter, fair enough.... Now are they making money through their normal sales?"

They do brag on their Dreadball numbers quite a bit. I seem to remember one of the updates (KS or Newsletter I don't recall) calling the Werewolves the hit of the summer too.

 Azazelx wrote:
Well, we've seen what "cheaper" gets you. gakky models that they're uphappy with, not willing to show yet were willing to take people's money for, and excuses meted out third-hand on the internet. "Ronnie told me, but they swore me to secrecy - but it's totally not their fault." (that they shipped substandard models to people anyway, damaging their already-shaky reputation further, for years to come...)

Which one's the better investment in your business for the long term?

They'll keep doing the cheap method if they think it will pay off in the longterm. The KS update talking about it said they weren't happy, but there had been improvements in the process. Deadzone stuff isn't organic shapes, but it does look very nice from what we've seen.

Of course, we haven't seen the hard plastic, excepting the terrain, which is pretty simple.

 Azazelx wrote:
Of course, we haven't seen the hard plastic, excepting the terrain, which is pretty simple.

I think the Zombies are going to be the only real 'test' sprues that will judge how well they'll be able to make fantasy stuff. All the other stuff is smooth shapes with hard edges.

However....a simple sprue done well is still a sprue done well. We hadn't seen that from this manufacturer yet.

I still want to know how the evil plastics baron managed to buy out the Mantic summer camp for orphans and forced them to eat the stomped-on snickers bar of releasing poor models. I bet there's a real scoop of a story there, especially if Mantic wins the high-stakes canoe race telethon to buy their Enforcers' tooling for grandma.

Assuming its at all true, I think it's a good thing that Mantics official line on the MaAs wasn't the sob story told several pages back.

^ Yes.

End consumers don't care about toolmakers or manufacturers or any of that behind-the-scenes stuff.

From the customer's perspective: Mantic minis = made by Mantic, their responsibility. The buck stops there and it is good that Mantic agrees.

It is the only properly professional line to have in this situation.

Definitely better that they keep quiet about the whole thing rather than going on a Tony-Reidy-esque rant, or like any of the Kickstarter creators who go "weh weh the big bad toolmaker" whenever delays crop up.

They've taken this silent "we need to deal with this ourselves" approach before when Dreadball had problems, although Jake Thornton ended up ranting about it on his blog so we got a little bit of an idea of the chaos that was going on behind the scenes.

My only concern is that they are still using this find-ways-to-screw-you-over-at-every-chance, have-already-screwed-you-over-multiple-times "have to fly over there for 2 weeks to supervise them and make sure they don't screw us over" Chinese toolmaker going forward.

Maybe it would instead be better to try out that local UK toolmaker who recently delivered on a kickstarter for hard plastic sci-fi minis and produced 5 different really high quality sprues with £11k of funding, in the space of 3 months, working in their spare time, that I got in the mail yesterday (they're really nice!), and is actively trying to find wargames companies who want hard plastic tooling done.

How did the sprues for that work out? Care to share some pics?

And if they are good, and can accommodate more intricate levels of details, what is Mantic's excuse from here on out?

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Compel wrote:

"They've sold a tonne of stuff through kickstarter, fair enough.... Now where's all the money they're making through their normal sales going?"

"They've sold a tonne of stuff through kickstarter, fair enough.... Now are they making money through their normal sales?"

The money is going where the money for most new(ish) companies go - back into the company.

Part of the reason WotC sold out to Hasbro - WotC was making money, but the folks that owned WotC were broke....

It'll take a while for Mantic to actually be totally in the black - and that is why Kickstarter is a godsend to new(ish) gaming companies.

Reaper is a mature company, and they needed Kickstarter.

The Auld Grump

@Fenris: Sure, here they are:


Won't gak up this thread too much, but my thoughts on it can be found in the PDC KS thread in misc. minis forum, and summarized as "super-happy, I should have spent 5x more on their KS".

They're not the only ones either, UKplasticmouldings and SK Engineering are another couple off the top of my head in the UK who also do regular high-quality client work for either the wargames or scale model industries. GW used to use the former (for digital tooling before they got their own stuff set up - stuff like the plastic BFG ships were made by them), Victrix and PSC use the latter for everything.

So in that case Mantic definitely has no excuse, except for the fact that it's probably a lot cheaper to get it from China, and that pleases the bean-counters more.

Thing of it is, even if it does cost less, it hurts them more in the long run. This kickstarter has soured me to Mantic's practices, and I was a massive fan of theirs. They can make short-term profits from their products, but in the end they're only hurting themselves.

The more painful thing for me is - Kickstarter is an nearly infinite source of seed capital. The higher quality/ lower-priced your product is (make both of those happen and ca-ching!), the more money you can raise, there is no need to scrimp and save and bean-count when you can instead push for quality, huge stretch goals and explain up-front why they are needed and ask people to get on board with your vision of very low-priced, very-high quality minis like the original elves and skeleton sprues.

I'd be really happy with just $50k per sprue stretch goals (or $75k or $100k, or whatever it is they need to get it done right, as long as the freebies are there and the product is shown off as sculpts or renders, people will back it) from Mantic in a Kickstarter and some miniatures that are really affordable and really good quality at the end (not this tooled in China crap where the end results depend on how much the toolmaker thinks it can get away with shafting you), rather than twice the quantity of minis that are neither.

If that means doing a Kickstarter just for the Nature army, and ignoring the Abyssal army until next year then fine, just do the Nature army to a top-notch standard and do the hard plastic gnomes, naiads, slyphs and salamanders... then centaurs, slyvan kin and elementals in restic and you have a wonderful army with 4 hard plastic kits all sorted from about $500k of funding. They could maybe start with the four sets of restic elements for the initial fund, then go nuts with hard plastics after that. I'm fairly certain they'd have a hard plastic funded on day one, possibly two.

They really need to stop underestimating their own potential and hamstringing themselves with poor bean-counting-based decisions when they're capable of so much more.

Warpath 1.0 release was killed by the bean-counter decision to re-use fantasy sprues when a couple of brand new hard plastic corporation and zz'or infantry sprues and a box filled with the things would have sold like hotcakes.

Recent (and rather odd) decisions can all be traced back to a bean-counter mindset, instead of a "we are creative artists pushing to be the absolute best that we can be" mindset that practically oozes from Kickstarters like KD, DFG, SW.
That bean-counter business mindset might be an asset for meeting KS schedules, but it's absolutely toxic when applied to the product itself in a "can we do 3 kits that might be crap and expensive instead of one kit that we know will be amazing?" manner.

That's my opinion on it anyway, I've been leaving feedback to this effect since there has been a lot of talk about the KoW 2.0 KS recently (I think it might be next after Mars Attacks from the sound of it).

I really hope with the next one they can get people back on board, since there's a lot of people (like you, Fenriswulf, and Gallahad) who I've known to be Mantic fans for a long time and who just weren't happy with it. And that bothers me a lot more than any amount of the casual armchair ranting that you tend to see on forums from people about products they have no personal investment in.

 scarletsquig wrote:
The more painful thing for me is - Kickstarter is an nearly infinite source of seed capital./
/huge snip
I really hope with the next one they can get people back on board, since there's a lot of people (like you, Fenriswulf, and Gallahad) who I've known to be Mantic fans for a long time and who just weren't happy with it. And that bothers me a lot more than any amount of the casual armchair ranting that you tend to see on forums from people about products they have no personal investment in.

I've been critical of your Mantic fandom in the past, but this post of yours is pure gold. Kudos.

Now if only Ronnie et al would read it and listen.

Yeah, an excellent post Squig, and right on the money too.

I really hope they switch to a local producer too. Even if the Chinese factory can potentially produce good quality stuff, they obviously can't without constant supervision of very basic stuff. I think the current contracts were signed before PDC started up so unless Mantic use their backout clause for the DZ stuff then it has to be with the Chinese Factory. Interesting that they didn't go with UKplasticmoldings or SK Engineering when the factory screwed up the goblins and M@As. I was under the impression that Renedra were the only ones who could do miniatures until PDC came along.

Squig, I think you've it the nail on the head regarding any future Mantic ks. People will back for quality sprues, although I do wonder if they've put of many potential customers by the response to their m@a.

I was nearly put off Mantic plastics for good after picking up some of the Goblins, it was only the fact that I really liked the look of deadzone and that it was restic models that I went in for as much as I did on the ks. Thought of getting some mangled Enforcers sprues does give me nightmares.

I think you're right, basically less is more. If they produce less figures in a ks but make sure their fantastic sprues they will be much more successful in the long run. At the moment many people are accusing them of being cash grabbers, sending out rubbish minis, not caring once they've got peoples cash. They really need to address this.

 scarletsquig wrote:
^ Yes.
Maybe it would instead be better to try out that local UK toolmaker who recently delivered on a kickstarter for hard plastic sci-fi minis and produced 5 different really high quality sprues with £11k of funding, in the space of 3 months, working in their spare time, that I got in the mail yesterday (they're really nice!), and is actively trying to find wargames companies who want hard plastic tooling done.

Yep. Agree. These guys blew the lid off of a lot of the general logic for tooling molds. once you do a certain bandwidth, it may make more sense to do tooling in-house, or at least locally.

When a small KS can do it, there is no valid excuse from a company who raised millions why they cannot produce the same standard.

Edit: and Sprues solves the 'tear from sprue' issue. Just stick the whole sprue in the box and let the consumer deconstruct it.

 Gallahad wrote:
The problem is that their current funding model gives them zero incentives to produce quality products.

Do you really, honestly believe what you just wrote? That they are such terrible businessmen that they're like, "let's produce inferior products maliciously and steal the customer money! Then we'll never sell another one of the kits again! muahaha!" *twirl moustache*
50% slag? so you participated and got all your free models and you declare that 50% of them are slag. okay, which ones?

they lost money on KoW Kickstarter. do you think they specifically purposefully engineered their business plan to produce a product that wouldn't sell? they want to not even break even? that's your thinking?

A Kings of War 2.0 kickstarter will be quite an interesting event. There is an awful lot of ground for them to make up in the fantasy realm, not to mention all the people who were left a bit soured by the previous experience.

I missed the original one, and most of the stuff they released for it is stuff I wouldn't have bought anyways with the exception of a hero or two.

Having seen what came out of it, I would really like to see the next one be very narrowed and focused, and I love Squig's idea of focusing on getting a hard plastic sprue or two made first and build up from there

Maybe a Abyssals vs. Nature mini kicker? Focus on a base infantry sprue for each army, stretch goal for ranged support, plastic command, restic specialty units, maybe some cavalry if things go well... wrap it all up in a two player starter box and call it a day.

Show off renders and sprue ideas before pledging starts to build up interest, put some 3d models up at launch time, maybe have some pictures comparing early prints to other Mantic figures... it can't be that hard!

Hell maybe some day I can have someone besides GW give me some hard plastic lizardmen.

 Azazelx wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
The more painful thing for me is - Kickstarter is an nearly infinite source of seed capital./
/huge snip
I really hope with the next one they can get people back on board, since there's a lot of people (like you, Fenriswulf, and Gallahad) who I've known to be Mantic fans for a long time and who just weren't happy with it. And that bothers me a lot more than any amount of the casual armchair ranting that you tend to see on forums from people about products they have no personal investment in.

I've been critical of your Mantic fandom in the past, but this post of yours is pure gold. Kudos.

Now if only Ronnie et al would read it and listen.

I told ya! I told ya! Squig's a Mantic fan in that he wants them to be awesome, not a Mantic apologist!

wrap it all up in a two player starter box and call it a day.

Wouldn't be a bad idea at all.

Slight problem is that abyssals and nature would both require two books, if you want the full paper versions for everything, but that's hardly insurmountable.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:

A Kings of War 2.0 kickstarter will be quite an interesting event. There is an awful lot of ground for them to make up in the fantasy realm, not to mention all the people who were left a bit soured by the previous experience.

I missed the original one, and most of the stuff they released for it is stuff I wouldn't have bought anyways with the exception of a hero or two.

See, that's the thing - so many of the KS backers are just fine - despite the crappy men at arms - because most of the gak was free.

The $175 pledge netted you like $250 worth of pre-existing figures plus the rulebook. That was already a good deal.
Then the stretch goals hit - and you you got 15 units for free and like a dozen metal heroes due to the stretch goals and free dice and some restic KS exclusive miniatures.

So if you're like me and you only had use for about 6 of the stretch-goal free units, it was STILL an amazing deal because the initial pledges were discounted product.
And some of the sculpts were great, so again, if you were me, you bought several extra units of things you liked at a discount! (I've got like 60 fleabag riders I need to assemble and paint for my goblin army)

I thought the Men At Arms were garbage, I didn't like several sculpts of the new units, but I was still VERY VERY happy with the KS. It got me playing a fantastic rules set and got me started with a couple armies and I still got a bunch of free gak as stretch goals, some of which was useful, so I traded the other things to people for more of the useful things.

 judgedoug wrote:
See, that's the thing - so many of the KS backers are just fine - despite the crappy men at arms - because most of the gak was free.

The $175 pledge netted you like $250 worth of pre-existing figures plus the rulebook. That was already a good deal.
Then the stretch goals hit - and you you got 15 units for free and like a dozen metal heroes due to the stretch goals and free dice and some restic KS exclusive miniatures.

So if you're like me and you only had use for about 6 of the stretch-goal free units, it was STILL an amazing deal because the initial pledges were discounted product.
And some of the sculpts were great, so again, if you were me, you bought several extra units of things you liked at a discount! (I've got like 60 fleabag riders I need to assemble and paint for my goblin army)

I thought the Men At Arms were garbage, I didn't like several sculpts of the new units, but I was still VERY VERY happy with the KS. It got me playing a fantastic rules set and got me started with a couple armies and I still got a bunch of free gak as stretch goals, some of which was useful, so I traded the other things to people for more of the useful things.

Pretty much this. I got a fantastic Ogre army out of it and a shedload of miniatures at a ridiculously low cost. The last shipment was really poor and unfortunately did overshadow the entire thing, but up until that point it was brilliant and there were very few miniatures that I didn't love. My split:

Awesome:
- The two army books
- Ogres
- Gargoyles
- Brocks
- Fleabags
- Almost all of the heroes
- Elf & TK Cavalry

Respectable:
- Elohi
- Paladins & paladin knights
- Chariot & Mincer
- Rest of the heroes
- Trolls (the legs aren't to everyones tastes I know)

Poor:
- Sisterhood (for the cavalry I'm just going to use the panthers without mounts)
- Mummies
- Palace guard

Downright terrible:
- Men at arms

Yes, the men at arms and sisterhood are universally despised and should be, but they overshadowed what was otherwise a good range of miniatures. A complete lack of communication and forward thinking on the men at arms was appalling but to claim that the rest of the kickstarter was terrible is just ridiculous.

 judgedoug wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:

A Kings of War 2.0 kickstarter will be quite an interesting event. There is an awful lot of ground for them to make up in the fantasy realm, not to mention all the people who were left a bit soured by the previous experience.

I missed the original one, and most of the stuff they released for it is stuff I wouldn't have bought anyways with the exception of a hero or two.

See, that's the thing - so many of the KS backers are just fine - despite the crappy men at arms - because most of the gak was free.

The $175 pledge netted you like $250 worth of pre-existing figures plus the rulebook. That was already a good deal.
Then the stretch goals hit - and you you got 15 units for free and like a dozen metal heroes due to the stretch goals and free dice and some restic KS exclusive miniatures.

And some may not be, because what you call 'free' they call add-ons diluting the cost so the value was finally worth them getting in. They saw those 'freebies' as models they expected.

And what good is 175$ pledge for 250$ of models if 75$ of those models go right int he garbage because you can't re-sell them as no one wants them?

'Value' is relative, and 'free' is misleading as it isn't free, it is just the changing the cost of the overall package. It is like saying 500$ for 4 tires vs 500$ for 3 tires and the 4th one is free.

And 'Throw away the stuff you don't like' is not a great tagline for a kickstarter. I don't see why people keep pushing that as an acceptable outcome.

for the cavalry I'm just going to use the panthers without mounts

/me, seriously wondering why he'd not thought of just doing that....

Maybe I should start looking online for some of that "garbage" people don't seem to want.

I can use some good fodder for practicing conversions. Plus I can see how bad it actually is.

Not all of us got in at $175. The deal was a bit less sweet below that range, especially when the only reason I got in at all was for the werewolves.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Not all of us got in at $175. The deal was a bit less sweet below that range, especially when the only reason I got in at all was for the werewolves.

Yeah, and I do feel bad about cases such as yours, where you pledged for a narrow range of product and were disappointed. Hence my quote " many of the KS backers are just fine".

I'm not hand-waving away complaints from anyone genuinely disappointed in the product they paid for and received (the trolls! I was so excited for the trolls! bleh. thankfully Mantic let us swap around paid add-ons), but I'm thoroughly annoyed at non-backers who assume the KS was a total bust because of some bad sculpts. While the bad sculpts certainly do absolutely suck and should never have happened, it doesn't invalidate the tremendous deal the KS was - from the get-go - for many of us, myself included. Even if no stretch goals and no freebies had been obtained I would have been very happy with just my initial pledges. I'm personally double-happy because I hadn't played KoW before the KS and was blown away after I got my rulebook and started playing, as it's now become my defacto minis game for my and my gaming group.

Keep in mind I'm also of the mindset that the M-A-A should not have been released. I keep thinking, perhaps Mantic should have done what Mongoose did back in the day - during the heady days of the Starship Troopers miniatures game, Mongoose was tooling plastic light mobile infantry (from the film), promised 20 multipose plastics dudes in a box for $25. Unfortunately the sprues came back looking terrible, so instead of releasing them, Mongoose said, "hey. these suck. we're going to get someone to sculpt metal figures and release them at the same price point, effectively making no money on them, because we want you to be happy". Because of that attitude, I wound up buying like 160 of the metal ones even though I would have rather had plastic multipose.

 judgedoug wrote:
Keep in mind I'm also of the mindset that the M-A-A should not have been released. I keep thinking, perhaps Mantic should have done what Mongoose did back in the day - during the heady days of the Starship Troopers miniatures game, Mongoose was tooling plastic light mobile infantry (from the film), promised 20 multipose plastics dudes in a box for $25. Unfortunately the sprues came back looking terrible, so instead of releasing them, Mongoose said, "hey. these suck. we're going to get someone to sculpt metal figures and release them at the same price point, effectively making no money on them, because we want you to be happy". Because of that attitude, I wound up buying like 160 of the metal ones even though I would have rather had plastic multipose.

Definitely would have been a better idea. I don't know if they'd have been able to afford to give everyone the metals. Maybe allow everyone to switch them out for something else and get the metals out to those who specifically want the men at arms (I'm betting there's a lot of people who'd gladly have swapped for something else). Another idea might have been to hook up with a historical manufacturer like perry or gripping beast and use their plastics as the men at arms until something better could have been done.

In other news, the Soul Reavers have disappeared from the online store. The same thing happened to the vampire on pegasus and we've had confirmation there's a new sculpt for the vampire in the works (since he was at 15mm scale despite the pegasus looking great). Maybe we've got new Soul Reavers incoming? It could be something as simple as a repack with restic horses though since I think they still had metals.

Metal arms and heads could fix up the MAA quite nicely, wouldn't mind seeing a bitz pack of metals to get them looking good.

Same as the goblins, look great once you add the metal arms.

The crossbow arms for the MAA are really nice, in proportion, great detail, all good.

If they did the same thing for the spear and sword arms (resculpting that ridiculous sword that's three times larger than any other sword on any mantic mini), I'd definitely buy it.

As it stands I have a huge Basilean army and no viable core infantry that I'm personally happy to use on the table without massive conversion.

EDIT: Now that I'm going through my Basilean sprues, I'm noticing a variation in tooling quality. Some sprues are better than others in terms of detail.

 judgedoug wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Not all of us got in at $175. The deal was a bit less sweet below that range, especially when the only reason I got in at all was for the werewolves.

Yeah, and I do feel bad about cases such as yours, where you pledged for a narrow range of product and were disappointed. Hence my quote " many of the KS backers are just fine".

Yeah, I personally do not have the "bucket o' random minis" fever that so many kickstarters like this seem to be counting on. I have too many models already, why do I need 100 more that I don't like?

I'm much more likely to narrowly pledge for just certain items, and thus need to be able to trust that they're good...

I piggy-backed onto timetowaste's pledge for 18 golems and picked up 6 more from folks selling them. I'll gladly pay for good product, but the idea that people should be appeased that they got a good deal even if a number of sculpts are hogwash... that's a tough sell.

My takeway from this campaign- if I'd gone in big, I better darn well have been happy to start any army. Because from the sounds of it, everybody's starting ogres because those are the sculpts that turned out good! But if they were set on something else, they're probably disappointed now.

 RiTides wrote:


My takeway from this campaign- if I'd gone in big, I better darn well have been happy to start any army. Because from the sounds of it, everybody's starting ogres because those are the sculpts that turned out good! But if they were set on something else, they're probably disappointed now.

I personally am very happy with the mawbeast riders and goblin mincer (for my goblin army pledge), my chariots/fight wagons (for my orc army pledge), the elf cavalry and palace guard (for my elf army), the twilight kin knights (for my gamezone dark elf army), the elohi (for my basileans using confrontation lion figures army), and brock riders (for my dwarf army). All of those were free stretch goals. The rest I traded away for more of the aforementioned!

But again, that's the "bucket o' minis" path. You must have a lot of armies and could pick good sculpts from each race to augment them.

If someone was starting one army, such as the KoW-Empire equivalent............

Basically, seeing the aftermath of this, I want to start a Mantic ogre army! But beforehand, there would be no way to know which sculpts would be good, and thus you can't plan for a specific army project until seeing the results.

This means, for someone like me, it's better to wait until retail with Mantic. I don't need the "fantastic deal" for a few hundred dollars' pledge... instead, I'll put those few hundred dollars into paying retail price for the sculpts that turn out well and that I can use.

Just my take, of course! The new campaign (Deadzone) looks promising, as they always do at this point... hopefully the casts don't disappoint.

 RiTides wrote:

This means, for someone like me, it's better to wait until retail with Mantic. I don't need the "fantastic deal" for a few hundred dollars' pledge... instead, I'll put those few hundred dollars into paying retail price for the sculpts that turn out well and that I can use.

Hindsight being 20/20, yes!

But moving forward - this is what I'll be doing with anything on the Fantasy side of things from Mantic

 RiTides wrote:

Just my take, of course! The new campaign (Deadzone) looks promising, as they always do at this point... hopefully the casts don't disappoint.

Yeah, I hope so too!

Daedleh wrote:
Pretty much this. I got a fantastic Ogre army out of it and a shedload of miniatures at a ridiculously low cost. The last shipment was really poor and unfortunately did overshadow the entire thing, but up until that point it was brilliant and there were very few miniatures that I didn't love. My split:

Awesome:
- The two army books
- Ogres
- Gargoyles
- Brocks
- Fleabags
- Almost all of the heroes
- Elf & TK Cavalry
-Golems
-Werewolves

Respectable:
- Elohi
- Paladins & paladin knights
- Chariot & Mincer
- Rest of the heroes
- Trolls (the legs aren't to everyones tastes I know)

Poor:
- Sisterhood (for the cavalry I'm just going to use the panthers without mounts)
- Mummies
- Palace guard

Downright terrible:
- Men at arms

Yes, the men at arms and sisterhood are universally despised and should be, but they overshadowed what was otherwise a good range of miniatures. A complete lack of communication and forward thinking on the men at arms was appalling but to claim that the rest of the kickstarter was terrible is just ridiculous.

For me, I'd have things fall slightly differently.

Awesome:
- The two army books
- Ogres
-Abyssal Immortal Guard (you forgot these)
- Gargoyles
- Fleabags
- Elf & TK Cavalry
- Paladins & paladin knights

Respectable (eg, very good, but with minor flaws that bring them down):
- Elohi
- Brocks
- Chariot & Mincer
- Sisterhood (love the panthers, don't hate the sisters)
-Mummies
-Palace guard

Poor:
- Trolls (legs are enough of an issue that I'm unlikely to use them).

Bad:
- Men at arms

Very happy overall, but a little more care could have improved significantly with some minor improvements.

Where are people placing the Werewolves and Golems?

Personally I adore the Golems. They were one of the concepts during the KS that looked like the art was drawn up in about 5 seconds, the final product was very different and all the better for it. I like the Werewolves too, but like anything else on the KS if you went big on them you were probably left a little dissapointed due to the lack of variety you can get out of the kit. For the Werewolves it was just 2 bodies and 4 heads, and 3 bodies and 3 heads for the Golems. The material is just not very forgiving for conversion to create variety amongst your units and that is the same on all the monster units whether it is trolls/Elohi, this is obviously a bigger problem on the ogres if you want a full army of them.

As a rule on the KS I liked the monster units better than the rank and file. As Scarletsquigs impassioned and accurate views earlier in the thread point out, resin plastic is just not suitable for core troops and should be reserved for elites/monsters. If Mantic can work with a UK producer to produce core plastic sprues they will be on the right track. The worry for me is that enough people already feel burned by the company and will never return. Then again as the likes CMON kickstarters and Defiance (Sedition Wars maybe not) have proven us wargamers can be pretty forgiving if you stick an appealing product at a good price in front of our eyes

I don't think the golems are perfect, but I think at the KS buy-one-get-one price, there's not much that can touch them in terms of value. They can barely squeeze onto a 40mm base, and feel more at home on 50mm... meaning they're Big!

To top it off, there is no equivalent model/sculpt out there that I can find. I'm going to be using them as K'daii fireborn for chaos dwarfs... the savings over an equivalent number of FW K'daii models is just silly.

Golems: good. Just, good. Maybe it's not your *style*, but those are awesome and there's a pretty close consensus there. Of course not everyone likes them - there's a taste component, after all, to all minis. We're picky bastards, all of us

Werewolves have had some bad press. I'm not really sold on them (but they're a low priority for me anyway so haven't even really looked that closely yet). The flesh tones/grey fur look isn't all that popular but the guys painting them a bit more furry are happy, it seems - I seem to remember seeing some decent pics of that. maybe someone else here knows where to find them again?

TL;DR:
Golems good, Werewolves a mixed bag. some hate them, some like them rather well, I find them eminently useable from what I've seen so far.
...Will see about speedpainting up two or three this weekend, come to think of it. I'm curious now

@Ritides, they were the only models in the KS to come with 50mm bases, but even then they can be a bit cramped. Again just another body or so and 2/3 extra heads and I would have been totally sold on them. As it is I have used Abyssal Dwarf shield bosses on some of the heads to add variety.

Edit: Another advantage for those with Golems is that there is no sign of when they will be released at retail. At the moment it may even be 2014 until the masses can get their hands on them. As Ritides says there is just no real equivalent out there on the market.

I didn't really look at the golems too closely since they got traded off as soon as I got them. From what I've seen they look alright and do the job but nothing outstanding.

Werewolves look alright, especially when painted completely furry rather than fleshtone + fur bits. A lack of variety really hurts them though and I do think they're a touch too small.

 scarletsquig wrote:


If they did the same thing for the spear and sword arms (resculpting that ridiculous sword that's three times larger than any other sword on any mantic mini), I'd definitely buy it.
.

If you don't want your Basilean weapons, will you be willing to sell them for cheap? I love the oversized weapons. I'll probably replace most of the weedy little disappointing swords on all my "boring scale" historicals with them. Also, I'm sure they'll look great on space marines enforcers.

 RiTides wrote:
But again, that's the "bucket o' minis" path. You must have a lot of armies and could pick good sculpts from each race to augment them.

This means, for someone like me, it's better to wait until retail with Mantic. I don't need the "fantastic deal" for a few hundred dollars' pledge... instead, I'll put those few hundred dollars into paying retail price for the sculpts that turn out well and that I can use.

But, see, that's the point. I was very happy from the get-go because all the army pledges in the KS were for pre-existing miniatures. I was very, very happy to get a Mantic Orc army for such a discount (big fan of their Orc style) - and I would have still been happy even if no stretch goals were ever met. The freebies from the stretch goals are icing on the delicious cake.

I actually only started all the aforementioned armies after the KoW KS ended because I love playing KoW so much (due to getting the rulebook from the KS!), it's given me great reasons to make lots of armies

I personally am far more suspicious of, say, Deadzone than I ever was for Kings of War, because with Kings of War my pledges included existing product and I knew what I was getting in my actual pledge (an Orc army). The freebies were the unknown.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


If you don't want your Basilean weapons, will you be willing to sell them for cheap? I love the oversized weapons. I'll probably replace most of the weedy little disappointing swords on all my "boring scale" historicals with them. Also, I'm sure they'll look great on space marines enforcers.

Naw dawg, glue 'em onto those sweet Centurion turdledges models! Big giant overwhelmingly stupid cool drills AND giant electro sword blade lightning claws! WHOA SWEET blurst models ever!!!1

 judgedoug wrote:
I personally am far more suspicious of, say, Deadzone than I ever was for Kings of War, because with Kings of War my pledges included existing product and I knew what I was getting in my actual pledge (an Orc army). The freebies were the unknown.

Not to get stuck on the point- but you keep referring to sculpts as "freebies". While they were free to you, if you didn't add any extra, others paid add-on prices for those sculpts. So, they were not "free" and can't simply be written off if you didn't like the sculpt in that case.

But I'm tired of talking about this as I think you know what I mean

Well, if anyone wants to get rid of their mini's and will trade for boardgames, send me a PM. I've put up with Battle Masters archers with half their faces melted off, so anything better than that would be an improvement!

Agreed -- If you don't like many of the sculpts, don't pledge through the KS. Wait until retail. Or another KS with better sculpts!

Bob, I don't need all the Basilean weapons I have. I'll have 160 of each kind, using 80 spears and 40 swords, so I'll have a bunch leftover. Let me know what kind of numbers you were thinking.

PM sent.

 judgedoug wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:

A Kings of War 2.0 kickstarter will be quite an interesting event. There is an awful lot of ground for them to make up in the fantasy realm, not to mention all the people who were left a bit soured by the previous experience.
I missed the original one, and most of the stuff they released for it is stuff I wouldn't have bought anyways with the exception of a hero or two.

See, that's the thing - so many of the KS backers are just fine - despite the crappy men at arms - because most of the gak was free.
The $175 pledge netted you like $250 worth of pre-existing figures plus the rulebook. That was already a good deal.
Then the stretch goals hit - and you you got 15 units for free and like a dozen metal heroes due to the stretch goals and free dice and some restic KS exclusive miniatures.

So if you're like me and you only had use for about 6 of the stretch-goal free units, it was STILL an amazing deal because the initial pledges were discounted product.
And some of the sculpts were great, so again, if you were me, you bought several extra units of things you liked at a discount! (I've got like 60 fleabag riders I need to assemble and paint for my goblin army)

See, my experience is a little different. Since we weren't especially taken with any of the existing stuff (excepting the undead, which we already had a bunch of) our plans were for ogres and trolls (based on the concept art). We then BOGOFed things like lots more trolls, more cat riders (based on the initial promises of monstrous cavalry, and envisioning something much more like the mounts from World of Warcraft or the lion mount being ridden by the metal hero than the cathorses we ended up with. Anyway, when the reveals started to come out, my wife and I both had to wildly vary our pledges in order to dodge the bullets of Trolls, Sisters, Cathorses and Elf Cavalry (as they weren't shown, and by the end I wasn't taking risks with Mantic's product sight unseen). In the end we finished up with more Ogres than we'll probably ever be able to use, more mounted and foot paladins than planned and a few fight wagons we didn't expect to be getting.

So not a terrible outcome, but required a lot of dedicated forum watching to not get screwed over on poor models that a huge chunk of our money was going to. I also picked up 2 of their "undead army" sets in the final survey, so now there's pretty much nothing left I want from them in the fantasy genre, aside from a few metals and odds and ends that could work. So in a second KoW KS, I'd be pledging for new figures, sight unseen. Which frankly, makes me nervous.

 Azazelx wrote:
See, my experience is a little different.

As would mine have been. I was looking at getting some harpies and sisters, but dropped the idea when I couldn't get a straight answer on which type of harpy they were making, and when Mantic decided that trying to beat the Perrys at their own game was a better use of a plastic kit than doing something new. But if I had pledged, I'd be screwed. Saying "Sorry the stuff you wanted is crap, have some of the stuff that kept you out of the game in the first place!" wouldn't cut it, any more than if Games Workshop screwed up your order of Orks and offered to sell you some Space Marines instead.

Yeah. I went in for $250 and was looking to have a massive Basilean army for both KoW and to use in Warhammer as an Empire army. After taking ages to see close up shots of what was sketched or promised, we finally see some shots (a lot of them leaked by other people) and had to make decisions based on that.

It wasn't until near the end of it when they were organising up for delivery that I found out if I did go for a Basilean force, I would be shooting myself in the foot. So that didn't leave me with a whole lot of options.

I have a ton of Mantic stuff from existing armies, so just getting a regular force wasn't a good option either. So I had to make the best choice I could. Which was the Ogre army. Which now I have them, they aren't what I am looking for either.

I wanted Mantic to follow through with their promises, and to make miniatures that were as good and as detailed as their original plastic kits. That's what I was pledging for, and what I thought they would deliver. They really failed in that regard, and even though I have received a bucketload of miniatures, there is very few I actually want to keep and use. Which is sad.

Mantic might have had to go out of pocket for this, but considering they had people fund all their tooling and sculpting for these miniatures, parting with 10 grand or so is pretty cheap, considering a lot of these designs are likely to sell well. Some more than other of course, but then again that was something else which could have been avoided.

What if Mantic, instead of cutting corners on a lot of the sculpts and tooling, instead put in a lot of their own money to see that high quality multi-option units were made instead? They'd still be ahead as the majority would have been paid by the supporters, and they would then have a ton of excellent sculpts tooled and ready to go with miniatures that would be recognised as being excellent and be great sellers from there on out. It would also make people who hadn't pledged rather jealous and less likely to pass up Mantic kickstarters in the future. A short term loss would be more than made up for with longer term profits from the miniatures themselves, as well as a sterling reputation to go ahead with for following kickstarters.

As it is, I very much doubt I will support a Mantic Kickstarter in the future. Not unless they seriously reconsider how they run their business.

What if Mantic, instead of cutting corners on a lot of the sculpts and tooling, instead put in a lot of their own money to see that high quality multi-option units were made instead?

They didn't have a lot of money is the problem with that.

Before kickstarter they were typically releasing one restic kit + some metal bitz to create another unit or two out of it per month. Hard plastic, not an option (well, until they went to China, but we all know how that turned out).

So, at that point in time, a single sprue was three months of operating capital for them. The goblins (despite turning out badly) would have represented a serious investment for them. Kickstarter was a lifesaver for company funding..
The bean-counting mindset was born out of necessity, but unfortunately it still lingers on over a year later at a point where the company can fund pretty much anything it wants for its core game worlds by putting it up on KS and saying "have at it".

That's why I specifically said "fewer, higher quality, more affordable kits" rather than "produce the same number of kits but make them all good". You either have quality/affordability of releases or quantity of releases, you don't get to have both.

Although with their current toolmakers, hard plastic is likely to make the minis cheaper, but also completely murder the quality as the toolmakers are either incompetent and/or have absolutely no desire to produce a quality product for their client... so that puts the whole thing out of whack and means they're probably better off with restic as the more stable solution, even if it's not going to help one bit with their goal of being an affordable miniatures company.

On the bright side, if Mantic can keep putting out £20 for 20 minis restic kits like the Basilean Paladins, I'll be very happy with them on the whole. That's another road they could go down.

Keep in mind that the second most common complaint about the KoW KS was Mantic lowering their restic retail prices to a point below the $25 for 20 originally offered in the kickstarter (once you factor in buying from a typical 20% discount + free ship retailer like wayland).

It is probably the first time I have ever seen complaints about a company lowering its prices. Valid complaints, mind, and I sure would have been happier if my fethloads of KS Basilean BOGOFs (8 in total) at least came with the metal command bits that the retail packs did, but on the whole "your prices are too low" is not the worst type of complaint in the world for a company to be attracting. :p

@Alpharius

found the thread with the alt painted werewolves:
http://forum.manticblog.com/showthread.php?4890-Alternate-Werewolf-Colour-Scheme%21

it is an improvement, IMO.

Daedleh wrote:
I didn't really look at the golems too closely since they got traded off as soon as I got them. From what I've seen they look alright and do the job but nothing outstanding.

Werewolves look alright, especially when painted completely furry rather than fleshtone + fur bits. A lack of variety really hurts them though and I do think they're a touch too small.

I'll go with this description of both of them. The werewolves are effectively heroic scale 28mm figures, rather than the huge 40mm beasts promised - so nowhere near the scale of the Confrontation stuff (metal or plastic).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unfortunately, the pics are locked behind a Mantic Forum registration thingy.

nkelsch wrote:

And some may not be, because what you call 'free' they call add-ons diluting the cost so the value was finally worth them getting in. They saw those 'freebies' as models they expected.

And what good is 175$ pledge for 250$ of models if 75$ of those models go right int he garbage because you can't re-sell them as no one wants them?

'Value' is relative, and 'free' is misleading as it isn't free, it is just the changing the cost of the overall package. It is like saying 500$ for 4 tires vs 500$ for 3 tires and the 4th one is free.

And 'Throw away the stuff you don't like' is not a great tagline for a kickstarter. I don't see why people keep pushing that as an acceptable outcome.

FWIW I have had no problem selling any of my KS extras, despite thinking I would. I had a $342 pledge - I kept the Ogres and Undead I pledged for, plus the Trolls as I like them, but put everything else up for sale and got $225 back over the week it took them to sell. So I essentially got a massive undead and Ogre army for a touch over $100. Best value KS ever.

 Azazelx wrote:

Daedleh wrote:
I didn't really look at the golems too closely since they got traded off as soon as I got them. From what I've seen they look alright and do the job but nothing outstanding.

Werewolves look alright, especially when painted completely furry rather than fleshtone + fur bits. A lack of variety really hurts them though and I do think they're a touch too small.

I'll go with this description of both of them. The werewolves are effectively heroic scale 28mm figures, rather than the huge 40mm beasts promised - so nowhere near the scale of the Confrontation stuff (metal or plastic).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unfortunately, the pics are locked behind a Mantic Forum registration thingy.

... okay, no way am I reposting all of those
Just one, as an example then:

Is a bit rough, blown up to that size but hey, for a quick paintjob I kinda like them now.

I'll have to disagree with you that they're 28mm heroic stuff, though. It's an 'in-between' size if you were looking for GWesque oversized but it's certainly bigger than just heroic - and substantially, too.

 scarletsquig wrote:
@Fenris: Sure, here they are:

Spoiler:

Won't gak up this thread too much, but my thoughts on it can be found in the PDC KS thread in misc. minis forum, and summarized as "super-happy, I should have spent 5x more on their KS".

Just a comment about PDC gaming as being a standard to meet.
None of their sprues attempt to create fine detail on top of organic shapes. They do a very good job, but everything is tubes, simple curves and boxes. Even their had wepons are not terribly detailed compared to GW. Not to say that they probably couldn't do more complex things, but they have in no way demonstrated that they could do better than Mantic, or any other company in actually producing miniature people.

 Bolognesus wrote:

I'll go with this description of both of them. The werewolves are effectively heroic scale 28mm figures, rather than the huge 40mm beasts promised - so nowhere near the scale of the Confrontation stuff (metal or plastic).

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unfortunately, the pics are locked behind a Mantic Forum registration thingy.

... okay, no way am I reposting all of those
Just one, as an example then:

Is a bit rough, blown up to that size but hey, for a quick paintjob I kinda like them now.

I'll have to disagree with you that they're 28mm heroic stuff, though. It's an 'in-between' size if you were looking for GWesque oversized but it's certainly bigger than just heroic - and substantially, too.

I think you're confusing "size" and "scale". Though 28mm is technically a size of a figure being 28mm from sole to eye, folks also use it to refer to figures that whatever their size, are "in-scale" with average male human figures that are that height. The werewolves are definitely 40mm. tall (compare them to the 40mm base they are on) and appear to be even taller. I'm not a fan of the figures themselves (I much prefer the confrontation wolfen) but in terms of size they are exactly what mantic said they would be. Whether or not they are GW size or not affects some users, but shouldn't be held against Mantic as a company as the height and size of a were-wolf varies drastically depending on what fantasy universe one is playing in.

... I think you're replying to az, not me there, right?

 Bolognesus wrote:
... I think you're replying to az, not me there, right?

Looks like the quote got mixed up. I'm replying to whoever didn't think the werewolves were 40mm tall, or confused them with 40mm scale, something entirely different.

Changed to remove name.

Just tossing this out here, but if anyone with a lot of MaA's is looking to sell off their heads, I would like to buy all the visored heads you can sell (depending on price and shipping costs). Just the visored heads, though. Pedosmile and Muppet have no place in my army.

 Eilif wrote:

I think you're confusing "size" and "scale". Though 28mm is technically a size of a figure being 28mm from sole to eye, folks also use it to refer to figures that whatever their size, are "in-scale" with average male human figures that are that height. The werewolves are definitely 40mm. tall (compare them to the 40mm base they are on) and appear to be even taller. I'm not a fan of the figures themselves (I much prefer the confrontation wolfen) but in terms of size they are exactly what mantic said they would be. Whether or not they are GW size or not affects some users, but shouldn't be held against Mantic as a company as the height and size of a were-wolf varies drastically depending on what fantasy universe one is playing in.

Actually, I was expecting more of a Confrontation Wolfen size, given the talk of 40mm bases and the sketches (and even the sculpts, before the finished models were in-hand). Nothing to do with GW - though I feel like they're actually more of a current-GW size for this sort of thing, though GW would have them overhanging on 25mm bases. They'll work on 40mm round bases, though.

 Azazelx wrote:

Daedleh wrote:
I didn't really look at the golems too closely since they got traded off as soon as I got them. From what I've seen they look alright and do the job but nothing outstanding.

Werewolves look alright, especially when painted completely furry rather than fleshtone + fur bits. A lack of variety really hurts them though and I do think they're a touch too small.

I'll go with this description of both of them. The werewolves are effectively heroic scale 28mm figures, rather than the huge 40mm beasts promised - so nowhere near the scale of the Confrontation stuff (metal or plastic).

Wanted to get back to you on this: here's a metal confrontation wulfen model, right next to a mantic werewolf (sorry for pic quality, but it gets the point across).



I'd say the scale is pretty close, actually.

Height is close, but I can see where the Mantic version would look a bit weedy next to the Confrontation Wulfen. I've dipped and rebased a batch of the Confrontation prepainted Wulfen for my Kings of War army and they look great.

I personally prefer their tribal clothed look to the furry crotched Mantic figs, and the confrontation plastics are actually true multipart models that can be separated at the glue joints and reposed in a multitude of ways. At some point I'll get some pics of them up.

Also, it didn't hurt that they were a buck or less apiece at miniatures market....

Yup, plastics look nice. Really though, the shipping from miniature market to the EU kills it on those sets - two to three times the price of the confrontation boxes.

Just got my kickstarter boxes, and I'm a bit overwhelmed. Are there any instruction guides out there, especially for the metal models?

Which of the metals do you need help with? Most of them have bits in both baggies, just pour them out and sort bits per model. They're quite straightforward to assemble once you've got them sorted. Do use a pin (or twenty!) with the large basilean heroes, though

I just used regular super glue, no pins needed. The parts are very self explanatory: just look at the images online and it should help out plenty.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
no pins needed

On the angels? Wow, you are one hell of an optimist

I don't know if I'll even bother to try and assemble the female angel character model. Maybe when I get my Dremel properly set up...

 Azazelx wrote:
I don't know if I'll even bother to try and assemble the female angel character model. Maybe when I get my Dremel properly set up...

i'm undecided if i want to try and build that model, or wait and get the stuff to recast the wings in resin, cause i don't see trying to pin those chunky metal wings with their tiny connection points being anything but a path to rage and violence

Nod. That is one model which would have been much more appropriate for Restic than metal.

 Azazelx wrote:
Nod. That is one model which would have been much more appropriate for Restic than metal.

at a quick guesstimate, i'd say each wing weights in around the same as the metal dwarf character that was also in the shipment
even if not the whole model, having the wings in a lighter material would have been awesome
i just don't see a lot of people bothering with the stock wings, given the effort they'll take to attach, and the fact that looking at the model to hard will probably cause them to snap back off

 Bolognesus wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
no pins needed

On the angels? Wow, you are one hell of an optimist

Optimist? Or successful at what I suggested?

I am with TimeToWaste onthe not needing pins on the angel wings. As well as the main attachment points to the back you have secondary bits of wing which glue onto the cloak. As Greenskin Lynn says though if they stay on is an entirely different matter. But overall both Angel characters were a lot easier to construct than I imagined. Also yesterday I got my few replacement bits from Mantic that were missed from my 3rd shipment, so good work and customer service there.

i suppose one could also get creative with the design of the base to work in some additional connection points

edit-perhaps incorporate some sort of broken pillars or something

Elf stormwind cav are up for general sale:

Plastic or restic?

Restic.

Those look rather nice. Certainly a big improvement on the Dragon Cavalry, even from the one photo.

Just quickly letting everyone know that it's KoW week over on Beasts of War, lots of videos and interviews, video battle reports, live webchat with Alessio and they're doing a thing where throwing a comment on a youtube vid or on the site enters you into a prize draw to win 4000 points of KoW minis.

Hopefully there will be some new rumours and stuff coming out of it too.

Molochs are on their way. Hopefully this means we'll see a decent chunk of the Abyssal army launched at the same time. No idea of date yet.



There's also definite a Beserker lord on brock on its way, and very likely to be an Ogre Warlock too given the overwhelmingly positive feedback to the initial sculpt.

I love that art, and another Ogre character would certainly be a good idea with how well received the Ogres have been!

wow, did you see the comments on the Basilean video?
http://www.beastsofwar.com/kings-of-war/kings-war-week-basilean-faction-breakdown/#comments

it's basically the exact opposite of my reaction and the Dakka reaction- everyone seems to love the battle nuns!

...Now Ilike much of Mantic's stuf, but... W_T_F?

 Daedleh wrote:
Molochs are on their way. Hopefully this means we'll see a decent chunk of the Abyssal army launched at the same time. No idea of date yet.



There's also definite a Beserker lord on brock on its way, and very likely to be an Ogre Warlock too given the overwhelmingly positive feedback to the initial sculpt.

If the actual model looks anything like that it'll be great.

Any idea on when we'll see some sculpts?

No idea yet. We've still got a lot of the kickstarter miniatures due to be released including the brock riders and twilight kin stuff. I suspect once they're out then we'll start hearing more. Of course the Open Day is happening on the 30th November so Ronnie will probably spill a lot of beans there.

I'd love to see Mantic make models that look like one (or both) of these concepts.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, it looks like the top one got rolled into the KS Ogres, in terms of gear.

Ahh... concepts.

They excite the mind so much.

At least they're not... say... these concepts.



which became these


"Help! I've got elephantitis of the hands!"

Actually, Doug. Jes' picture there is dated 1991, and the resulting figures were these, in 1992 as part of the WFB4 boxed set:


While it's true that the designs are still generally based on Jes' styles laid down 20 years ago, newer figures such as the ones shown are based on more recent briefs. And, let's be blunt. Big hands on an elf is far less of an issue than the utter gak that was produced in place of the original trolls, Men-at-Arms, and Sisters.

Also - and rather more relevantly - is that GW didn't take money off gamers in advance based on the far superior concept art and then deliver the poorer quality High Elves. There were at least previews of the Trolls so we could be disappointed in advance and change our pledges. They truly shat on people from a great height with those Men-At-Arms.

My actual point of posting those Troll pictures is twofold -
- firstly that people should be very wary of backing Mantic based on great concept art. (Should I also show the Men-at-Arms, or the Nuns?)
- secondly that the original troll artwork is still very good, and if they're going to start doing a better or more consistent job of holding to concept art and producing good miniatures, those specific designs are clearly worth revisiting.

Oh, trust me, I know full well the promise the HE range has and how half... probably, actually, more than half... of the models are just terrible. I have tons and tons and tons of High Elf models as they are one of my favorite armies of all time and I've been very careful, having to mix over 20 years of HE models to make an army that looks mostly good.

Y'know, interestingly, while I myself dislike a good half of the KoW KS figures... I've found that overwhelmingly other people like them. The Basilean models keep selling out online, and people on other sites like Beasts of War are just full of praise from random internet people. It seems like at least a ten to one like vs dislike ratio, shrug. And normally people only bother to type about gak when they don't like it.

But, that's just me... and I'm usually utterly aghast that many sculpts can continue to sell (about half of GW's range including the HE above, most of Warmachine lol). I don't want to say my tastes are more discerning or something, but I just don't understand that those GW models or the Basileans sell.

Now, I would love to see those trolls get made... though at this point I don't know if I'd use them (having already bought a pile of Mierce trolls). Bought if they were made and they were cheap enough, hell, I could just do a troll army. Just add on to the other 8 Kings of War armies I've started in the past year (Orcs, Dwarves, Elves, Goblins, Basilean Lion, Helsvakt Horde, Cult of Set, and a fully mounted Goblin army I've just decided to do)

Actually, my opinion is that a great many of the 20-year-old HE sculpts are still the best of their kind. Owing largely to four magic words that apply to both the concepts and the sculpts - Designed by Jes Goodwin (Teclis and Tyrion's idiotically giant hats aside)

When it comes down to brass tacks though, what pisses me off and keeps me bent out of shape about the Sisters/Trolls/etc isn't simply that they're a poor execution of the concept art, but that a lot better was promised in paid-up-front, crowd-funded kickstarter form. The trolls worse than the sisters or MAA in one way because of what in the end amounted to a bait-and-switch to their backers and the MAA worse in a different way because of the "no photos at all, just ship them!" policy.

To put it another way, I think the Drakon riders and Mantic Elves are also poor models, but I don't go on about them, because they were regular product, brought to retail without the pay upfront and hope nature of the KS stuff. If the Trolls, Cat Riders, Sisters, MAA were just normal models that turned up at retail I wouldn't give a gak, since I'd write them off on sight and forget about their existence a second later, instead of them being things I plonked money down for, and had to scramble to find passable replacements for a year later...

With this not entirely enjoyable experience under my belt, I figure I'm going to make up for it in a combiniation humourous snark, and also being very careful about trusting Mantic's concept art.

As for the concept-art trolls, you'd still find space for them, as would I. They'd be half the size of the Mierce ones anyway, and have as much specific detail in common with them as the Mierce ones do to GW or LotR ones. Easily proxied as anything medium sized, or as trolls from a different tribe/sub-race. If they ever got made, they'd fit in nicely with Tre's Helsvakt, actually...

 Azazelx wrote:

With this not entirely enjoyable experience under my belt, I figure I'm going to make up for it in a combiniation humourous snark, and also being very careful about trusting Mantic's concept art.

I also find that snark helps to make the KS feel "worth it" to me. Sedition Wars is another KS where I certainly didn't get my pledge's worth in the miniatures.

Things would be different if Mantic actually changed their strategies completely, but they are still saying things like "We have a boatful of product on its way. No pictures, though. We haven't seen any production minis, either."n That tells me that Mantic either haven't learned anything from their past mistakes or they didn't mean it when they apologized.

If the Basileans really are selling that well, then Mantic has no reason to change. I can't imagine how they could be selling sub-EM4-quality minis at more-than-WGF prices, nearly GW prices for restics. Their rules must be that good, eh?

Judging by current trends, once WGF finally signs up some real fantasy sculptors, Mantic is dead.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Things would be different if Mantic actually changed their strategies completely, but they are still saying things like "We have a boatful of product on its way. No pictures, though. We haven't seen any production minis, either."

So things are different, cool

Deadzone update #117
"The vast majority of the models are now on their way to us, and they’re looking fantastic. We were not happy with some of the first batch, so we reworked the mould and ran it again. We’ve seen the results and we're very happy with them. We haven’t had a chance to get any photos just yet, but we are flying in some of the production pieces and will get images out as soon as we receive them."

 judgedoug wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Things would be different if Mantic actually changed their strategies completely, but they are still saying things like "We have a boatful of product on its way. No pictures, though. We haven't seen any production minis, either."

So things are different, cool

Deadzone update #117
"The vast majority of the models are now on their way to us, and they’re looking fantastic. We were not happy with some of the first batch, so we reworked the mould and ran it again. We’ve seen the results and we're very happy with them. We haven’t had a chance to get any photos just yet, but we are flying in some of the production pieces and will get images out as soon as we receive them."

There's no point judgedoug, next it will be yeah but Mantic did this or that so there a horrible company.

 Azazelx wrote:
Actually, my opinion is that a great many of the 20-year-old HE sculpts are still the best of their kind. Owing largely to four magic words that apply to both the concepts and the sculpts - Designed by Jes Goodwin (Teclis and Tyrion's idiotically giant hats aside)

When it comes down to brass tacks though, what pisses me off and keeps me bent out of shape about the Sisters/Trolls/etc isn't simply that they're a poor execution of the concept art, but that a lot better was promised in paid-up-front, crowd-funded kickstarter form. The trolls worse than the sisters or MAA in one way because of what in the end amounted to a bait-and-switch to their backers and the MAA worse in a different way because of the "no photos at all, just ship them!" policy.

To put it another way, I think the Drakon riders and Mantic Elves are also poor models, but I don't go on about them, because they were regular product, brought to retail without the pay upfront and hope nature of the KS stuff. If the Trolls, Cat Riders, Sisters, MAA were just normal models that turned up at retail I wouldn't give a gak, since I'd write them off on sight and forget about their existence a second later, instead of them being things I plonked money down for, and had to scramble to find passable replacements for a year later...

With this not entirely enjoyable experience under my belt, I figure I'm going to make up for it in a combiniation humourous snark, and also being very careful about trusting Mantic's concept art.

As for the concept-art trolls, you'd still find space for them, as would I. They'd be half the size of the Mierce ones anyway, and have as much specific detail in common with them as the Mierce ones do to GW or LotR ones. Easily proxied as anything medium sized, or as trolls from a different tribe/sub-race. If they ever got made, they'd fit in nicely with Tre's Helsvakt, actually...

My High Elves are a mix of the best - 4th edition metal spearmen and archers, 6th edition shadow warriors, phoenix guard and white lions, new 8th plastic lothern sea guard, etc.

I suppose a lot of it comes down to what the hell Kickstarter is, in my brain - I invest in a company and I am given product from what was made possible. I agree with your logic of "they releases the Drakons, they suck, ignore" but I also apply that to the KS process... it's a giant gamble. With Mantic's, I've been mostly happy (with the superhappy part of having started playing KoW due to the KS, heralding in a renaissance for myself and my gaming club of fantasy gaming not seen since General's Compendium era WHFB). Sure I was sad about the trolls but if I wanted insurance before plunking money down I would wait for the retail release, and that goes for anybody. You could buy Enron stock thinking it's gonna be great and then get burned; instead of being totally SOL though at least Mantic replaces miscasts.

Honestly the only concept art I truly trust is Mierce's, because they have as close to 100% success rate. Everybody else I'm like "that's nice, lemme see the model".

Now you've got me excited about concept art trolls again, damn you! lol.

I think if I won some sort of lottery I'd either buy Mantic or give them a million bucks with the caveat that a handful of Dakka peeps such as me and yourself and a few others are in control of what it's spent on - concept art, sculpts, tooling, etc. I'd LOVE for them to succeed but there's too many lows canceling out the highs.

 judgedoug wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Things would be different if Mantic actually changed their strategies completely, but they are still saying things like "We have a boatful of product on its way. No pictures, though. We haven't seen any production minis, either."

So things are different, cool

Deadzone update #117
"The vast majority of the models are now on their way to us, and they’re looking fantastic. We were not happy with some of the first batch, so we reworked the mould and ran it again. We’ve seen the results and we're very happy with them. We haven’t had a chance to get any photos just yet, but we are flying in some of the production pieces and will get images out as soon as we receive them."

How can they both
1) have had the time and opportunity to examine the production models enough to know they look fantastic
2) not have any pictures of the production models
?

Every phone is a camera, and if they have an aversion to postic phone pics, real cameras are affordable and plentiful. Hell, I wouldn't fly to China without bringing a camera just for the touristy things, let alone to reassure the many backers who are emotionally invested in my product but reeling from my previous, catastrophic release..

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
How can they both
1) have had the time and opportunity to examine the production models enough to know they look fantastic
2) not have any pictures of the production models
?

Every phone is a camera, and if they have an aversion to postic phone pics, real cameras are affordable and plentiful. Hell, I wouldn't fly to China without bringing a camera just for the touristy things, let alone to reassure the many backers who are emotionally invested in my product but reeling from my previous, catastrophic release..

1. They flew someone out to look. That person confirmed their quality.
2. They don't have a photo studio in China, they do in their office. It's a small delay to wait for good photos to be taken in the office - and avoid the dramas about "omg these minis are horrible!" when it's just low quality photos.

So I don't see a problem with it. There will be a problem (for Mars Attacks at least) if good photos don't surface fairly soon however I imagine.

 judgedoug wrote:

My High Elves are a mix of the best - 4th edition metal spearmen and archers, 6th edition shadow warriors, phoenix guard and white lions, new 8th plastic lothern sea guard, etc.

Pics please. Here or in another thread. Even if they're unpainted. Ta.

I suppose a lot of it comes down to what the hell Kickstarter is, in my brain - I invest in a company and I am given product from what was made possible. I agree with your logic of "they releases the Drakons, they suck, ignore" but I also apply that to the KS process... it's a giant gamble. With Mantic's, I've been mostly happy (with the superhappy part of having started playing KoW due to the KS, heralding in a renaissance for myself and my gaming club of fantasy gaming not seen since General's Compendium era WHFB). Sure I was sad about the trolls but if I wanted insurance before plunking money down I would wait for the retail release, and that goes for anybody. You could buy Enron stock thinking it's gonna be great and then get burned; instead of being totally SOL though at least Mantic replaces miscasts.

Sure, but even if the figures are cheap, they're coming out of my wallet - so I can't afford to apply that kind of logic to KS. While I'm happy to support up-and-coming companies like Mantic, I do expect quality control/art direction - and better QC than Mantic has been managing. If I wanted to give to charity, there are plenty of worthy causes I already don't give to. It's the difference to me between supporting a company to get stuff made in a convoluted form of risky pre-order and charity - where I'm buying a "feel good" moment and not expecting anything back.

Honestly the only concept art I truly trust is Mierce's, because they have as close to 100% success rate. Everybody else I'm like "that's nice, lemme see the model".
Now you've got me excited about concept art trolls again, damn you! lol.

Well, I could also recommend Avatars of War, Dreamforge and Raging Heroes. You might just be waiting a little (or long) while for your toys, and of those three, only Dreamforge will actually talk to you. No reason I can see why those trolls can't be revisited, though.

I think if I won some sort of lottery I'd either buy Mantic or give them a million bucks with the caveat that a handful of Dakka peeps such as me and yourself and a few others are in control of what it's spent on - concept art, sculpts, tooling, etc. I'd LOVE for them to succeed but there's too many lows canceling out the highs.

See, that's how so many of us feel. We're not here to pick on poor liddle Mantic, as I doubt we'd be spending our hard earned with them if that were the case. They're just so close so often, and then they go and do something stupid (like go quiet, ship gakky models, etc) and you just want to Slap Some Sense into them again (note: tested and confirmed on Mythbusters!) BTW, my wife literally walked in in the last 20 minutes with my weekly mail run, which included DZ S3. There's some figures missing with an apology, some unexpected metals that should be restic, the larger figures look quite good while the smaller ones look about the same quality as S2, and once again, everything in the box appears to have been torn off the sprues.

The book, however, is lovely.

Actually, another point - on the perceived popularity of the Basilieans (Nuns, etc) - the painted unit photos on BoW etc look quite nice, and if you don't have the figures in hand or know to look closely at the promo pics, there's stuff you wouldn't notice. (arm length, etc). I wonder how they will actually sell in the medium to long term.

 Yonan wrote:

1. They flew someone out to look. That person confirmed their quality.
2. They don't have a photo studio in China, they do in their office. It's a small delay to wait for good photos to be taken in the office - and avoid the dramas about "omg these minis are horrible!" when it's just low quality photos.

So I don't see a problem with it. There will be a problem (for Mars Attacks at least) if good photos don't surface fairly soon however I imagine.

The thing is that they've pumped out some very sub-par models in 2013. Presumably, those had their "quality confirmed" before they went out as well. The other thing of course is, they've pulled the "we don't have any photos!" excuse so many times now that many of us no longer trust them anymore. That's called an erosion of consumer confidence, and isn't the greatest thing in the world to have - especially when a core part of your business strategy relies on crowdfunding being the source of your projects' capital.

Actually, another point - on the perceived popularity of the Basilieans (Nuns, etc) - the painted unit photos on BoW etc look quite nice, and if you don't have the figures in hand or know to look closely at the promo pics, there's stuff you wouldn't notice. (arm length, etc). I wonder how they will actually sell in the medium to long term.

Yeah, I'd imagine that explains the popularity... they look nice in the shiny painted pics of the resin masters... not so much when you get them in your hands. Even I should have looked a little more closely because I went for extra men-at-arms based on the resin masters and mantic's assurances.

It's like a reverse mantic elves situation.. those look better in-hand simply because the paint schemes and pictures for them have been terrible for a long time.

This was the only actually good photo they had of them on the site, unpainted and shows them off quite well:

 scarletsquig wrote:

It's like a reverse mantic elves situation.. those look better in-hand simply because the paint schemes and pictures for them have been terrible for a long time.

This is actually my straight up favorite pic of the Mantic elf spearmen and really shows what you can do with them


HOWEVER I've noticed that NO ONE uses the extra armor bits? My Mantic elves are all getting the extra armor glued onto them because they look about twice as cool and not even Mantic's official models or any I can find on google image search have the damn armor glued on!
(I'm even going to be gluing it onto the palace guard... as I'm painting their body armor as form-fitting leather, and the extra armor will be the only metal armor on them)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azazelx wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

My High Elves are a mix of the best - 4th edition metal spearmen and archers, 6th edition shadow warriors, phoenix guard and white lions, new 8th plastic lothern sea guard, etc.

Pics please. Here or in another thread. Even if they're unpainted. Ta.

Of my WHFB HE army? It's nothing too special, but I certainly can if you'd like. Only a few units are painted.

Sure, but even if the figures are cheap, they're coming out of my wallet - so I can't afford to apply that kind of logic to KS. While I'm happy to support up-and-coming companies like Mantic, I do expect quality control/art direction - and better QC than Mantic has been managing. If I wanted to give to charity, there are plenty of worthy causes I already don't give to. It's the difference to me between supporting a company to get stuff made in a convoluted form of risky pre-order and charity - where I'm buying a "feel good" moment and not expecting anything back.

Of course I'd like the best QC and the best return on investment possible, but I'm also not under the assumption I will get 100% bestest.

Well, I could also recommend Avatars of War, Dreamforge and Raging Heroes. You might just be waiting a little (or long) while for your toys, and of those three, only Dreamforge will actually talk to you. No reason I can see why those trolls can't be revisited, though.

Oh I love love AoW but I also know not to trust them (and didn't do the indiegogo!). I buy tons of AoW items... when they are available retail Such as the Pathfinders unit I did that mini-review about. With Mantic KoW there's a chance I may not support their next KS - if they do another KoW one - or only do it in a token way and then add on in their post-KS pledge managers once there's greens shown. (if they go back to Renedra I will throw down as much money as I can find however) Just because I was mostly happy with my pledge doesn't mean I'll close my eyes and jump blindly at the next one.

See, that's how so many of us feel. We're not here to pick on poor liddle Mantic, as I doubt we'd be spending our hard earned with them if that were the case. They're just so close so often, and then they go and do something stupid (like go quiet, ship gakky models, etc) and you just want to Slap Some Sense into them again (note: tested and confirmed on Mythbusters!)

Oh, totally agree. I mentioned this in the other thread but I think their main problem is growing too big too fast and once they settle down and catch their breath we'll see more solid output from them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

How can they both
1) have had the time and opportunity to examine the production models enough to know they look fantastic
2) not have any pictures of the production models
?

Every phone is a camera, and if they have an aversion to postic phone pics, real cameras are affordable and plentiful. Hell, I wouldn't fly to China without bringing a camera just for the touristy things, let alone to reassure the many backers who are emotionally invested in my product but reeling from my previous, catastrophic release..

Dude, I'm not sure if you remember, but I certainly do - preview pics, lowish quality, of Dreadball figures being summarily torn apart by everyone and if people saying they if they're not going to post good pics then don't post crap pics where we can't see the details or the camera flash enhances a mold line or something.

Shortly after that they stopped showing cell phone / point and shoot quality preview pics.

I'm not too worried - the only time it matters for me is if they open the pledge manager again and ask us to pay for models sight unseen, which is why I was hounding them during the wave 2 and wave 3 portions of KoW. It's one thing to back a KS initially with your pledge, sight unseen, it's another matter entirely to have a preorder (which is what those wave2/3/etc pledge managers are, as the models will be produced) without pics. That goes into Azazelx, as above, and my beliefs on Kickstarters in general. The KS is an investment and a gamble and you may be burned, but the future pledge managers are definitely preorder mechanisms so we'll need to see every damn aspect of it before I spend a penny. But again, just me.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Even I should have looked a little more closely because I went for extra men-at-arms based on the resin masters and mantic's assurances.

If they're now offering to refund people if they're not satisfied (and cover the shipping) you should seriously return those Men At Arms. I know you like Mantic, want to support them and aren't he kind of guy to want to cause a fuss, etc, but they really abused your (and many others') goodwill on those models. You'll be doing them a favour, long-term, teaching them that the kind of crap they pulled there isn't acceptable, and it'll cost them more when people return the figures. I'm sure the hole in your pocket works out a lot bigger proportionally than the one in theirs for your order, and they can always recycle the returned figures by devaluing their Christmas gift boxes with them or something, unless retail orders for them are doing well, in which case they can resell them...

 judgedoug wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:

It's like a reverse mantic elves situation.. those look better in-hand simply because the paint schemes and pictures for them have been terrible for a long time.

This is actually my straight up favorite pic of the Mantic elf spearmen and really shows what you can do with them

Those do look kind of cool actually!

 Pacific wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:

It's like a reverse mantic elves situation.. those look better in-hand simply because the paint schemes and pictures for them have been terrible for a long time.

This is actually my straight up favorite pic of the Mantic elf spearmen and really shows what you can do with them

Those do look kind of cool actually!

They do look good there - because they are all alone. The problem with the elves is when you place them next to other things and see that they look like whispy little children.

Unrelatedly does anyone know - have we seen a picture of the Twilight Kin cavalry yet -assembled/painted?

They scale pretty well with other mantic minis, it's only when you put them next to GW minis that they don't fit.

I'd say the dwarfs (the plastic ones anyway) are more out of scale with the mantic range than the elves, on the whole.

The elves feel like they fit, although they're really not GW high elves and more of a "fey, wispy thing lurking in the forest" interpretation of the elf archetype, they're supposed to look a bit odd and otherwordly.

Mantic when they first started out wanted to offer a unique take on fantasy archetypes (while remaining warhammer compatible in terms of models matching rules), an idea which was somewhat blunted very quickly by everyone screaming at them to make GW clones... kind of a shame since no matter what your opinion of the elves is, you have to admit they're an interesting artistic choice, all following a set theme and vision and all in a consistent style and scale across the entire miniature range - something which has been lacking in Mantic's later releases. I'd much rather have truescale and unique and interesting miniature designs no matter how much internet gnashing there is to the contrary.

Infinity minis are thin, tiny and truescale but you don't see any complaints because no-one is buying them as 40k proxies. With Mantic everyone has "warhams but cheaper" at the back of their mind.

I'm not so sure about your conclusions on the elves there, Scarletsquig.

Even seeing them painted up, in person by someone way more skilled at painting than me, I still think the elves look like stickmen.

GW's movie Lord of the Rings Elven models are pretty much an ideal representation of Elven models in my point of view. They're a great balance between the slender elven-ness and proper models.

 Compel wrote:
I still think the elves look like stickmen.

Well they *are* men holding sticks... ; p

I don't really buy the whole "we never take quick pictures of our models because they exaggerate the downside" or "it takes a proffesional photo studio to get decent photos of miniatures" argument. These are models that have already been paid for. In full. These aren't the pictures you are handing out to people who are about to decide whether or not to buy your stuff. These are pictures for people who have already paid for your miniatures, and you are about to ask them to buy more! There will be plenty of time for fancy photos pre-retail release. It is either intentional or incompetent.

I want to be Mantic's biggest fan. I loved watching Ronnie talk about the DZ terrain sprues and put them together. That was a cool CEO thing to do. It gave me warm fuzzies towards Mantic, he just looked so enthusiastic and like he was having fun! I admire him for creating a company out of nothing.

Then I remembered the KoW kickstarter. I knew it was a risk, a gamble. And it sure didn't pay off. I won't send them money for models unseen ever again.

What happened to the company that made the plastic zombies, ghouls, and skeletons? A company that asks its backers to hand over more money for the sisters and MAA after it knew what the quality was like, a company that repeatedly offers limp excuses about why it won't send photos of product to the people that funded its production, just isn't a company that feels like it deserves any sort of special treatment from me.

I bought into the whole "Mantic is special" thing, and it didn't really work out.

I hope they get back the magic and the Deadzone sprues are incredible. But based off their past track record, I don't expect it.

 Gallahad wrote:
I don't really buy the whole "we never take quick pictures of our models because they exaggerate the downside" or "it takes a proffesional photo studio to get decent photos of miniatures" argument.

Don't mischaracterise the argument, it's not "never" - it's "used to", until they got burnt by it with Dreadball. I can see why they might want to wait to get good ones out so they don't get burnt again. I agree we need pics, so long as they're out before we pony up money again (ie. Mars Attacks) it should be fine.

When did they get burned, exactly? The Deadzone Marauders did turn out to be bad sculpts. Most of their hated sculpts we first saw in bad photos are still hated in hand.

How was it a burn and not a Raging Heroes reaction to valid criticism?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
When did they get burned, exactly? The Deadzone Marauders did turn out to be bad sculpts. Most of their hated sculpts we first saw in bad photos are still hated in hand.

Thats just your opinion I like the Marauders (just don't look at thos Mawbeasts!). The only sculpts that were bad from the KoW KS were the atrocious M@A and nuns but thats just like my opinion.

overtyrant wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
When did they get burned, exactly? The Deadzone Marauders did turn out to be bad sculpts. Most of their hated sculpts we first saw in bad photos are still hated in hand.

Thats just your opinion I like the Marauders (just don't look at thos Mawbeasts!). The only sculpts that were bad from the KoW KS were the atrocious M@A and nuns but thats just like my opinion.

No, it was Mantic's opinion. That's why they had the Marauders "fixed" by their in-house sculptor.


I wasn't posting my opinion at all.

Bob, you might need to rewrite what you are talking about. You are making it sound like consumers got the Mauraders in hand and they are awful. That's why over tyrant responded like he did. It didn't sound like you were referring to the WIP greens that leaked.

Sorry, I meant that the leaked pics of the marauders not only caused bad fan reactions, but also caused Mantic to resculpt the minis. In other words, the "fix" was to repair the models and not to take professional pictures.

I still haven't heard of another example of Mantic taking quick pics of a product and it resulting in a massive backlash, excepting times when the product itself turned out later to actually be bad, either in Mantic's opinion or in the final consumers' opinions.

Then Mantic stopped showing pics of production models altogether and started shipping backers boxes full of mystery models. What do they look like? No one knows. The excuse that we've heard is that Mantic doesn't take quick pics because there is a backlash--apparently people see bad pics of good models and mistake them for bad models, according to this hypothesis. The trouble is...when did that actually happen?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I still haven't heard of another example of Mantic taking quick pics of a product and it resulting in a massive backlash, excepting times when the product itself turned out later to actually be bad, either in Mantic's opinion or in the final consumers' opinions.

This.. the nuns looked a bit dodgy even in the simple cellphone pics snapped of them, and the angels looked great even in the (even worse) cellphone pic snapped of them.

All of the major sculpt flaws were identified at that stage and getting better pics didn't change anything.

In a similar fashion, the cellphone pics of the TK and elf cavalry were enough for us to think "hey, those look pretty good, why didn't mantic show them earlier?".

Besides, a cellphone pic is actually ridiculously easy to get looking half-decent as long as it's an okay-ish cameraphone (or the cheapest digital handheld you can buy), they don't all have to be terrible as long as you have some extremely basic "macro mode = on, have main light source directly striking the minis from the angle you're taking the photo" knowledge, here is a cellphone pic I snapped of a PDC sprue 5 minutes after taking it out of the box.. no lamps just open window and the light turned on:



I can't think of too many reasons not to take some snaps if you've got staff in the production facility (and it sounds like they have someone full time over in China currently to teach them how to do their jobs properly).

 Yonan wrote:

 Gallahad wrote:
I don't really buy the whole "we never take quick pictures of our models because they exaggerate the downside" or "it takes a proffesional photo studio to get decent photos of miniatures" argument.

Don't mischaracterise the argument, it's not "never" - it's "used to", until they got burnt by it with Dreadball. I can see why they might want to wait to get good ones out so they don't get burnt again. I agree we need pics, so long as they're out before we pony up money again (ie. Mars Attacks) it should be fine.

There was still quite a lot of KoW stuff that didn't get shown until they had the pro-painted versions ready, or at all in the case of the Elf/TK calvalry and MAA....

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Sorry, I meant that the leaked pics of the marauders not only caused bad fan reactions, but also caused Mantic to resculpt the minis. In other words, the "fix" was to repair the models and not to take professional pictures.

Mantic didn't take those pics, someone at an open day or something did.

The Mantic quality cell phone pics that causes a lot of backlash were around Dreadball figs from a year ago.

 judgedoug wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Sorry, I meant that the leaked pics of the marauders not only caused bad fan reactions, but also caused Mantic to resculpt the minis. In other words, the "fix" was to repair the models and not to take professional pictures.

Mantic didn't take those pics, someone at an open day or something did.

The Mantic quality cell phone pics that causes a lot of backlash were around Dreadball figs from a year ago.

Which Dreadball figs? I don't remember much hate, apart from Wildcard, who is still quite a controversial figure. Besides, they took like 10 photos all from the same angle when the model looks as if it's meant to be seen from a different angle. So, again, more pictures would have been a solution...except for all the people who still dislike the sculpt, that is.

The Veermyn team are also a love/hate kind of team, and studio pictures would not have changed the reaction to them.

Maybe I am just not remembering correctly, so please remind me which specific Dreadball models everyone thinks look great in real life but drew fan ire due to bad pictures.

This is an important issue because Mantic post-MaA does not get the same benefit of the doubt that they used to when they tell us that models are in production/shipping out but can't seem to find any pictures of them or are unwilling to show us any. I simply do not trust Mantic like I used to, and what was once an adorable bit of incompetence on their part is now a major source of concern.


EDIT: It's even worse that Mantic didn't take those DZ marauder pictures, because those pictures are what lead to Mantic hiring someone to fix the sculpts. If some stalwart hero had not come along with his enchanted camera phone, the vile spectre of terrible sculpts would have won the day. Seriously, Mantic changed the models for the better (according to almost everyone) because the pictures showed how flawed the sculpts were. If Mantic had had their way, we would not have seen any pics until the sculpts were "already sent to the manufacturers", and we would be stuck with the models even Mantic now admits were terrible.

No current phones are sufficiently advanced to capture the "it looks better in person" factor inherent in all Mantic models.
They tried sending a guy around to your house to give you a detailed verbal description of the sculpts, but he only got as far as Oxford before running out of travel money.

It is basically always better to be surprised by models in hand rather than disappointed. If Mantic believed in the models they are shipping out, they would show pictures of them. Even if the picture exaggerated their flaws we would all be pleasantly surprised when they showed up. The only case in which it doesn't make sense to show pictures of models you have already sold to the people who bought them is if the models are pieces of garbage, and you want to sell more of them before your faithful backers figure out what they look like.

It just really, really bothers me how Mantic basically gave up on KoW, and just shipped out whatever crap they could to finish it up. Elves and Basileans all share the same barding style for their horses? That is so unbelievably lame, not to mention the dread orangatan cult sisters. I don't care if they didn't raise enough money in pre-sales to cover their production costs for all the units they promised. Maybe they should have looked down the road 3 months and put a little bit more of their own money in and went back to the drawing board on several sculpts (literally to the drawing board where they left all that good concept art they summarily disregarded). They had just barely raised a crap ton of money with Dreadball and then Deadzone, and no matter what anybody tells you, money is fungible. Dreadball has supposedly also been a big seller for them outside the KS, so it isn't like their only revenue is pre-sales.

Some new £100 Xmas army deals up on the Mantic site for various KoW armies, they're pretty good, mostly just 2 of the £50 sets stuck together with a bunch of extra stuff on top (ogre box comes with an extra 40 goblins and 3 chariots).

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/christmas/special-presents.html

The Undead one has 179 minis in it, including some elites, werewolves, war machines, characters, cavalry etc. Pretty much kicks the crap out of the GW version that has 36 minis in it for £75.





There's £150 ones as well, I can work out the % discounts if anyone is interested.

The question is, will they be available at the open day?

Those are some nice deals! Currently the only one I'd be interested in would be the Ogres, and I'm not super enthusiastic about getting a bunch of crappy mantic Gobbos, but still. It's a decent deal for £100 quid.

Mantic will be out of action while they ship deadzone so if you need to contact them read here first

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/3180/502957.page#6307268

For those interested in picking up some (or some more) Basileans

Miniaure Market has a bunch on clearance (40% ish off retail)

http://www.miniaturemarket.com/clearance/table-top-miniatures.html

Here's hoping that Ogre army box gets put on clearance too...

MM is weird, they constantly cycle Mantic stuff through clearance, and when the clearance item sells out, they restock it at normal price. I bought tons of 'clearance' orcs last year (three morax troops included) only to have them restock them back to their normal discount.

Loss leaders, perhaps?

Probably just warehouse clearance of overstock that isn't selling as well as they hoped.

If I remember correctly, with stuff like miniatures the first 1-3 months are huge for sales and then it goes down from there, so I'd imagine they're just trying to keep their stock turnover smooth with any modest sales.

Perhaps. Almost all their first shipment of Basileans sold out so they probably ordered a bunch more and have a big pile of extras. A couple of glances and it looks like most of the Basileans they have 15-20 of so yeah they're probably selling them cheap to reduce shelf space.

Gah, would have bought a Basilean army but shipping -_- Need a UK company with those deals for free royal mail shipping ; p Two $45 armies (£49.99 each from Mantic) was very tempting.

You need to order a substantial amount of stuff from Miniaturemarket for it to work out worthwhile these days, Yonan. Like $500+
If rumours of another substantial price hike from USPS in Jan are true, that will really end buying from the US...

Totally true. I just got the notification from Endicia and USPS earlier today to expect a change in pricing (and xml formats etc for the integration I have to do) for integrated shipping for January for both normal and commercial rates.

Damn... I paid ~$90 shipping on my last ~$950 order from Discount Games Store in the US. With GW prices it's still worthwhile given the regional pricing bollocks, but sucks that it's going up even more.

At least shipping from China is still cheap or free ; p

 judgedoug wrote:
Totally true. I just got the notification from Endicia and USPS earlier today to expect a change in pricing (and xml formats etc for the integration I have to do) for integrated shipping for January for both normal and commercial rates.

Any specific timeframe/dates on that, Doug? I'm hoping to do a Discount Games Store order for the new Marine stuff in early Jan.

 Azazelx wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Totally true. I just got the notification from Endicia and USPS earlier today to expect a change in pricing (and xml formats etc for the integration I have to do) for integrated shipping for January for both normal and commercial rates.

Any specific timeframe/dates on that, Doug? I'm hoping to do a Discount Games Store order for the new Marine stuff in early Jan.

I'll remote into my office computer and check...

"Please forward this notice to your development team for immediate action. Some changes may affect the performance of your XML integrated solution and could potentially cause errors or the inability to process transactions.

These changes will be part of a mandatory software version upgrade to support new U.S. Postal Service® rates and options, which go into effect on January 26, 2014. The new version will be available for optional download on January 7, 2014 and after this date users may receive a prompt in the software recommending them to upgrade. All users will be required to upgrade by January 17, 2013."

Thanks Doug. Enough time to get in one decent order, at least.

Aza, DGS did a promotion recently for Cyber Monday - had $17 boxes of Necron warriors and so on, did you get in on those? I also won their owners 13 kg bits box, only needing to pay shipping. 20 years worth of GW bits... man, DGS are awesome. I'll probably join you with one last order before the USPS price increase since DGS are so good for us.

Thanks for that info Doug, helps a lot. I'll spread the word to my fellow skips.

Thats a lot of dudes!

Those are some really great army deals, shame its Christmas and I'm skint, maybe I'll pick one these up some time later and finally give KoW a try.

Interested in the Ogre army most of all could have some fun converting those, the box set comes up to 1500pts, is that enough for a standard Kow game?

 Yonan wrote:
Aza, DGS did a promotion recently for Cyber Monday - had $17 boxes of Necron warriors and so on, did you get in on those? I also won their owners 13 kg bits box, only needing to pay shipping. 20 years worth of GW bits... man, DGS are awesome. I'll probably join you with one last order before the USPS price increase since DGS are so good for us.

Thanks for that info Doug, helps a lot. I'll spread the word to my fellow skips.

Nope, didn't have the cash to get in on their Black Friday stuff unfortunately. Amazing score on the bits box there, though!

 Azazelx wrote:
Thanks Doug. Enough time to get in one decent order, at least.

No problemo dude!

I've not seen these before (posted by TheImp on Frothers)

The molochs are awesome. And from the pics, that looks like actual hard plastic. GW quality plastic. Sign me up for a million.

Nah, it's restic. Look at just above the word 'Abyssal' and you can see telltale signs of the twisted off restic sprue on the arm.

Mantic's gonna have to lift it's game if it intends to beat GW at their own game. Restic miniatures with few options just isn't going to cut it.

They were posted back with all the other open day pics. Those are some better pics of them though.

Can confirm that everything in that pic (or other pics from the open day) will be resin plastic, not hard plastic.

I asked them about the smaller infantry for the abyssal and nature armies and they confirmed that they would be hard plastic (probably digitally sculpted so no physical sculpts to show off).

So, you'll probably see more of those when the kickstarter goes live.

The next major release for KoW is not going to be a KS thing though, it should be either next month or the month after and will be a "War of the Beard" supplement book.. dwarfs vs. abyssal dwarves with new units for each. Official release of the brock riders, immortal guard as well as a huge bombard and some other stuff (I'm hoping that dwarf king on foot).

Here's a berserker lord on brock, courtest of Daedle on the Mantic forums:

Gotta agree with you, Fenris. Restic isn't gonna cut it. People want and have come to expect hard plastic kits with plenty of options. It's easier to clean, easier to fix when broken, and frankly holds sharper detail. I can see restic working for character kits, but for troops and monsters, people want hard plastic. I really don't get why Mantic seems uninterested in it of late.

~Tim?

^ Too expensive to tool is the short and curlies of the matter.

It's four restic kits or one hard plastic, as a rule of thumb.

That said they are trying to get back on track with it, but are finding that getting quality out of China is like getting blood out of a stone.

If they'd leapt into bed with WGF early they'd have been sorted, but Wyrd, Mark, Poots and Secret Weapon are already snuggled up with that particular bit of hard plastic production capacity. So, they're stuck using some other random company which they thought would be good.

That berserk Brock rider is awesome!! I want two.

The funding cost is basically irrelevant. They fund through customers who are willing to pay large sums of money up front for unseen product.

Imagine where Mantic would be if they had done three or four renedra sprues for their KoW kickstarter with a reputable sculptor rather than the 20 or whatever restic molds with various sculptors of grossly varying degrees of skill?

An alternate universe where Mantic produced a beautiful sprue for the MAA, a killer Battle Sisters or whatever sprue, a sprue of ogres with weapon options, and a sprue of Trolls similar to the concept art looks radically different for the health of the company. And it probably would have cost them less. In said alternate universe, what do we loose?

Those ten guys in the world that have Mantic elf armies they are looking to expand and those five guys with an Abyssal Dwarf army come off slightly worse. The amatuer hour mummies, the chorse cavalry, the peg leg trolls all get erased from the catalogue to be resculpted at a future date by somebody who knows how to sculpt.

The angels and werewolves and brock cavalry all show up at a later date with more options and poseability.

Ack. Reality sure bites compared to that scenario. Instead Mantic has a new catalogue full of slag in a material that doesn't file, doesn't cut easily, doesn't stay glued, and comes so distorted you get to re-mold all your own miniatures!

While the truth hurts, I'm somewhat willing to give them a pass on the KS1 stuff since it was all so wild, wooly and unexpected at the time. Except for the Trolls and Men At Arms.

Since then, though? Time to properly get their gak together.

Got to agree with you 100% Gallahad. In the miniatures game you really do need to aim for the best quality you can muster, and to have sculpts which will last the test of time.

If you only do what is necessary to get figures out and onto market, you cut your own throat in the long term.

How much better placed in the market would Mantic be now if they had of followed the above advice?

If they want Warpath to be a genuine contender, they're gonna have to seriously consider their methods, otherwise they aren't going to last. Kickstarter is going to have the laws of diminishing returns behind it if the option for going for mass miniatures in a poor format continues. There is only going to be so long people put up with it, and I think it's outlasted it's welcome in the minds of many, myself being one of them. Re-doing the miniatures in future kickstarters is really bad business practice as it means you're constantly having to source funds which could be used to help create new miniatures to fix old ones which weren't done properly in the first place.

If they are finding it hard to get the detail and quality they want from China, then they're going to have to source someone closer to home. Might not mean Renedra, could be somebody else entirely. But having someone in England who could make these miniatures in hard plastic, be able to send the samples by post or just be a drive away is a hell of a lot better than chancing it on dodgy operators out of China.

People may well prefer polystyrene over restic but that 1:4 cost ratio

(and I've heard closer to 1:6 for European producers, not sure if that's just a different source of info, or reflects an real across the board price difference)

How well do you think Deadzone would have done if they only had 2 factions, and only half the variety in each of them?

or the target, stretches etc were all 4x as large

I'd bet there would be a lot fewer backers (a games got to have at least 4 factions to gain 'traction' is a common saying), and a lot of backers would have waited longer to commit as the campaign didn't have 'value' yet

I (almost) think that polystyrene works best as an unmentioned aspiration for a restic campaign that overfunds wildly, or for solo retail releases

At the end of the day, restic sucks and as long as Mantic relies heavily on it, they'll be held back by it.

I think it's especially important now that GW seems to be eyeing up a return to some kind of bulk value in the larger sets.

Things like the SM Strikeforce, and especially the Tyranid one just released with 95 minis for £105 are a price point Mantic cannot beat while they're still using restic.

The best similar sort of sci-fi minis deal that Mantic currently offers in restic is 92 minis for £100 (2 Corporation army sets).

KoW has the fortune of being based on the initial rather nice Renedra sprues, but that only properly applies to the first 4 armies.

Outside of that, it has mainly been GW going totally demented with pricing over the last 3 years that has kept Mantic price-competitive despite switching to restic or hybrid metal for pretty much everything.

Not everything has to be hard plastic, but definitely the core units. I would love to see a Nature army with hard plastic gnomes, naiads, salamanders and slyphs (the four core elemental infantry units), it would really start to make Mantic stand out as doing their own thing and offering something fresh.

I think the KoW 2.0 KS is going to be an interesting beast. It is only going to fund a single army (Abyssals)... and then see what happens after that one army has fully funded.

 Gallahad wrote:
The funding cost is basically irrelevant. They fund through customers who are willing to pay large sums of money up front for unseen product.

Imagine where Mantic would be if they had done three or four renedra sprues for their KoW kickstarter with a reputable sculptor rather than the 20 or whatever restic molds with various sculptors of grossly varying degrees of skill?

An alternate universe where Mantic produced a beautiful sprue for the MAA, a killer Battle Sisters or whatever sprue, a sprue of ogres with weapon options, and a sprue of Trolls similar to the concept art looks radically different for the health of the company. And it probably would have cost them less. In said alternate universe, what do we loose?

Those ten guys in the world that have Mantic elf armies they are looking to expand and those five guys with an Abyssal Dwarf army come off slightly worse. The amatuer hour mummies, the chorse cavalry, the peg leg trolls all get erased from the catalogue to be resculpted at a future date by somebody who knows how to sculpt.

The angels and werewolves and brock cavalry all show up at a later date with more options and poseability.

Ack. Reality sure bites compared to that scenario. Instead Mantic has a new catalogue full of slag in a material that doesn't file, doesn't cut easily, doesn't stay glued, and comes so distorted you get to re-mold all your own miniatures!

My thoughts exactly! I'd happily take fewer, higher-quality hard plastic kits with options produced in a longer period of time over large amounts of hastily made, poorly sculpted, restic kits.

~Tim?

Perhaps I've been extremely lucky, but I've had almost no difficulties or issues with the restic stuff coming from Mantic. As materials go, it's pretty much at the same level as lead alloys and polystyrene for me.

 JoshInJapan wrote:
Perhaps I've been extremely lucky, but I've had almost no difficulties or issues with the restic stuff coming from Mantic. As materials go, it's pretty much at the same level as lead alloys and polystyrene for me.

You must be the god of glue or something.

Of the five paladins I've assembled and had sitting on my painting table, literally every time I get the itch to try painting them, I pick them up, and subsequently break them (a 3 inch fall to the desk, push too hard on elbows trying to look at them and figure our color scheme, cough while holding them, etc.) I'm using the gel control super glue people recommended. There are now two paladins assembled on my painting desk, and lots of paladin pieces including the feared noodle swords of Mantica.Out of a bag of ten paladins (and I got lots of bags of ten), the average of arms useable out of the bag (sword straight, arms touch appropriate contact points) for me is about 3. I haven't even bothered trying to fit together the two paladin cavalry horse halves.

Injection Polystyrene is ideal for kickstarter backing because once you fund the tool, sending out bonus sprues to backers as stretch goals literally only costs you a couple of cents. Imagine a campaign where they wanted to raise $25000 to fund a tool of some demon infantry or something. You spend $50 and get 40 of the little buggers in sprues of 5. For every $10,000 over the initial, they add another sprue to your pledge for every $50 you pledge. Even if you assume it costs them another $1.00 per sprue including shipping, etc. they could add sprues to 10,000 backers. People would be selling their kidneys to pledge.

I've not had a problem either - and I am by no means a 'god of glue'.

Which brings up the question: What are you using for a glue?

It is quite possible that a large portion of your problem is the adhesive, not the material.

I have been using Zap-a-Gap or a Zap-a-Gap/Kneadatite sandwich, and not had a problem - with figures falling a good deal further than three inches.

Another question is: Do you wash the figures before gluing?

I always wash my models first - regardless of the material. Otherwise a thin layer of oil can prevent adhesion.

My only real problem with restic is the amount of cleaning - removal of flash, vents, webbing, etc..

The Chinese plastics company that Mantic is relying on... is pretty much crap, I'd prefer more restic to the abominable Men at Arms.

The Auld Grump

Not defending restic by any means but super glue and gel eventually go bad. The liquid stuff eventually congeals into a gel and the gel eventually does poorly, too.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
I've not had a problem either - and I am by no means a 'god of glue'.

Which brings up the question: What are you using for a glue?

It is quite possible that a large portion of your problem is the adhesive, not the material.

I have been using Zap-a-Gap or a Zap-a-Gap/Kneadatite sandwich, and not had a problem - with figures falling a good deal further than three inches.

Another question is: Do you wash the figures before gluing?

The Auld Grump

Loctite precision gel control or whatever super-glue. I will try washing aggressively when I decide to put together the rest of them. I think I washed them but I honestly don't remember. Never have to wash polystyrene for assembly. Having to mix together a two part epoxy like Kneadatite to assemble miniatures is way more trouble than I care to go through. Is Zap-a-Gap different than super glue somehow? I'd be willing to give it a try.

i've been building mine with superglue from a local dollarstore (freds, if anyone is curious), and haven't washed any of the models.
as of yet, i've had no trouble with models staying together, and haven't had to use the epoxy method either

 Fenriswulf wrote:
Nah, it's restic. Look at just above the word 'Abyssal' and you can see telltale signs of the twisted off restic sprue on the arm.

Mantic's gonna have to lift it's game if it intends to beat GW at their own game. Restic miniatures with few options just isn't going to cut it.

I wouldn't be surprised if they are indeed restic; tooling hard plastic for models that are a big question mark on sales would be a huge risk. However, if your evidence is a white bit on the shoulder at the upper right of the model, that's the shirt of the guy behind the case.

 Krinsath wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if they are indeed restic; tooling hard plastic for models that are a big question mark on sales would be a huge risk. However, if your evidence is a white bit on the shoulder at the upper right of the model, that's the shirt of the guy behind the case.

Nah, I meant the separate arm itself just above the word "Abyssal".

/facepalm.

Given that the weapons are green and brass rod, these clearly are not restic or HIPS production samples. They might be grey putty/grey stuff/ProCreate.

While, with the shine on them they do look like restic, but I don't believe that it is - remember this is the same company that didn't send out Dreadball Star Players/Keeprs/etc in restic because "we didn't get enough orders for resin plastic so we produced them in metal instead" To think they'd do a restic run at this early stage so that sculptors could then "do the weapons" - and then send them back for restic retooling again is, let's face it - unlikely.

 Gallahad wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
I've not had a problem either - and I am by no means a 'god of glue'.

Which brings up the question: What are you using for a glue?

It is quite possible that a large portion of your problem is the adhesive, not the material.

I have been using Zap-a-Gap or a Zap-a-Gap/Kneadatite sandwich, and not had a problem - with figures falling a good deal further than three inches.

Another question is: Do you wash the figures before gluing?

The Auld Grump

Loctite precision gel control or whatever super-glue. I will try washing aggressively when I decide to put together the rest of them. I think I washed them but I honestly don't remember. Never have to wash polystyrene for assembly. Having to mix together a two part epoxy like Kneadatite to assemble miniatures is way more trouble than I care to go through. Is Zap-a-Gap different than super glue somehow? I'd be willing to give it a try.

I have to admit that I use Zap-a-Gap because I have been using it for years (over a decade), and have liked the results for all that time. I buy it in the big bottles....

I think that it is a better glue than any of the others that I have tried, but I cannot say why.

***

It may sound like a bit of trouble, but the green stuff/super glue sandwich is incredibly useful sometimes - and does a truly excellent job of filling gaps. Make a disk of Kneadatite on one surface, and spread a thin layer of super glue on the other. Push them firmly together - the Kneadatite mashes into the nooks and crannies, and the super glue helps it cure faster..

Another big advantage is that it gives a bit more time to position things - and the tackiness of the Kneadatite helps old everything together for the super glue to dry, then the super glue holds things in place long enough for the Kneadatite to harden.

Give it a try next time you have a larger model with a so-so fit for the parts.

I actually use it more for metal models - but did use it on the Mantic Trolls and on the Pirate Giant from Black Scorpion,

I picked up the method from The Army Painter's painting guide.

The Auld Grump

That's all well and good, but it's more work than I'm willing to put in for a bunch of cheap, average-at-best sculpts from Mantic in restic. Which is a bigger issue for them in many ways, really. At this point - to me at least - much/most of Mantic's restic is cheap, disposable stuff that's not really worth a lot of money, time or effort - with only a few exceptions - and even then only on some of those points...

I've been using dollar a tube super glue gel, dropped a recently primed DZ Ripper Suit about 5 feet last night and it came apart into every constituent piece - the glue didn't fail, it held too well as all the pegs on the arms and head snapped off instead. Relatively quick fix and more careful carrying, but it didn't behave any differently at that height than any styrene model would have.

I guess I'm too new to wargaming, because I'm not having any problem at all using this restic stuff.

Then again, I got some of the Xmas boxes, and had to look up on the internet what was wrong with the MaA, because I really couldn't see anything, and was more worried about not breaking the skinny elf bows while clipping them from the sprue, so I'm probably in an easy going minority.

Has there been any word from Mantic regarding the quality issues?

NTRabbit wrote:

I guess I'm too new to wargaming, because I'm not having any problem at all using this restic stuff.

Mould lines across faces, etc. Needing to reheat many limbs to make them/the figure work

Then again, I got some of the Xmas boxes, and had to look up on the internet what was wrong with the MaA, because I really couldn't see anything, and was more worried about not breaking the skinny elf bows while clipping them from the sprue, so I'm probably in an easy going minority.

They're bad models, mostly. Also, Lego hands.

Seriously though, and non-sarcastically - if you're enjoying them that's great and good for you.

Speaking for myself, I just don't find I have the motivation/time/energy to put a lot into them and wish Mantic would step up their game, because I want to continue to support them. By contrast, I decided to bust open my Dust Tactics Zombies last night. 6 Boxes, 30 models. No assembly, pre-primed, minimal flash - like only a few of the 30 models, and even then very minor for all but a couple.. They're already more than half finished in less time it'd take me to clean and assemble 30 Mantic models and they're actually quite nice sculpts as well.

Joyboozer wrote:
Has there been any word from Mantic regarding the quality issues?

Not really?

Restic really is going to be what holds them back - and with GW's recent stumbles and missteps, a golden opportunity is passing them by.

 Alpharius wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
Has there been any word from Mantic regarding the quality issues?

Not really?

Restic really is going to be what holds them back - and with GW's recent stumbles and missteps, a golden opportunity is passing them by.

That doesn't seem true. They've got, what Asterians, Enforcers, Peacekeepers, Forge Fathers, and Space Zombies, all within the next coupla months? And the whole rewritten contract, and having already sent back the plastic Enforcers (which is why Deadzone got the Warpath ones as a freebie holdover)... seems more than 'not really'

Fair enough, but Mantic has also screwed up 'hard plastic' too.

So I'm glad you mentioned it - at the end of the day, Mantic's shocking lack of QC is what will really be holding them back.

I am apparently late to the party, but I really like the look of the Basileans. The website has them up for a great value, even with shipping the troops/city guard are 80 figs for $50.

I haven't been a big fan of the Fantasy line, but these are really nice.

Any word on any warmachines or Angels only?

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
I am apparently late to the party, but I really like the look of the Basileans. The website has them up for a great value, even with shipping the troops/city guard are 80 figs for $50.

I haven't been a big fan of the Fantasy line, but these are really nice.

They are not really nice. Rather than buy them from Mantic, you should ask around for people suckered into buying them sight unseen - they'll likely be a lot cheaper that way too.

That is unfortunate to hear. I'm really only interested in the pally's and foot troops.

I've turned right of Restic now, I get fed up with the mold lines and miscasts. I'm not adding anything to the Deadzone second survey (ok I might get some more scenery because there awesome! ). I'm due to get some hard plastic sprues from the DZ KS if they come out gak I'm done with Mantics miniatures (not there games as there awesome as well!)

To be fair, I've not heard anything bad said about the palidins, angels or characters. Its just the poor men at arms sprue and the badly proportioned battle nuns.

The nuns on cats horses (as they've been described) aren't bad casts, just some people dont like the cats proportions, personally im one of them but I think you still have a very reasonable priced fantasy army for a fraction of a gw empire army.

personally im waiting for the perry foot knight figures to make up my own force, along with their men at arms I think you could build a very nice force. Id definitely still use the Mantic characters tho their very cool.

Men At Arms are mediocre at best, Paladins are quite nice (I'm a big fan of Rackham sculpts and they're done by Remy Tremblay)

Quick note: Basilean Legacy is up for sale digitally for only $5:

http://www.wargamevault.com/product/126277/The-Basilean-Legacy---A-Kings-of-War-Supplement

Recommend getting it. It has three army lists, the new magic items and new Zap! rules. As well as rather a lot of background which is quite fun to read.

Kings and Legends is there as well, the book isn't as good or essential though, it is more expensive for a much smaller book that just has the ogre list which is free online anyway and overpowered special characters not intended for balanced games.

I am definitely and defiantly buying that pdf. Thanks, Scarlet!

 scarletsquig wrote:
Quick note: Basilean Legacy is up for sale digitally for only $5:

http://www.wargamevault.com/product/126277/The-Basilean-Legacy---A-Kings-of-War-Supplement

Recommend getting it. It has three army lists, the new magic items and new Zap! rules. As well as rather a lot of background which is quite fun to read.

Kings and Legends is there as well, the book isn't as good or essential though, it is more expensive for a much smaller book that just has the ogre list which is free online anyway and overpowered special characters not intended for balanced games.

Thanks for the heads up. I may pick that up!

Unfortunately I pretty much agree about the usefulness of Kings and Legends. I bought the paper copy out of some misguided desire to support the game for which I only use the rules (not the figures). Unfortunately, at $20 it kind of gives you the feeling like you just bought a GW product. As in a product that looks real nice, but doesn't have nearly the value it should. If I didn't have the print version I might pay the current sale price of 8 something for the PDF though.

One thing I definitely wouldn't do is buy the PDF of the KoW main rulebook. It costs only a couple bucks less than what the Hardcover costs at most online retailers, and the hardcover is a lovely book to own.

 Eilif wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Quick note: Basilean Legacy is up for sale digitally for only $5:

http://www.wargamevault.com/product/126277/The-Basilean-Legacy---A-Kings-of-War-Supplement

Recommend getting it. It has three army lists, the new magic items and new Zap! rules. As well as rather a lot of background which is quite fun to read.

Kings and Legends is there as well, the book isn't as good or essential though, it is more expensive for a much smaller book that just has the ogre list which is free online anyway and overpowered special characters not intended for balanced games.

Thanks for the heads up. I may pick that up!

Unfortunately I pretty much agree about the usefulness of Kings and Legends. I bought the paper copy out of some misguided desire to support the game for which I only use the rules (not the figures). Unfortunately, at $20 it kind of gives you the feeling like you just bought a GW product. As in a product that looks real nice, but doesn't have nearly the value it should. If I didn't have the print version I might pay the current sale price of 8 something for the PDF though.

One thing I definitely wouldn't do is buy the PDF of the KoW main rulebook. It costs only a couple bucks less than what the Hardcover costs at most online retailers, and the hardcover is a lovely book to own.

ok, see, there ya go. Yes, the hardcover is a wonderful book (I have one, signed by several mantic staff) however, what I would like to say is that through that PDF copy I printed a "gaming" copy, which I got bound at staples. By getting the PDF, you open the avenue of not having to completely tear up your nice hardback (as many gamers are wont to do.)

Out of interest, what kinds of tablets are people finding good for gaming rules/large PDF files? I think it's probably time for me to get one shortly, but I do.t want one that's going to struggle with some of the larger pdf files I have...

Don't

 Azazelx wrote:
Out of interest, what kinds of tablets are people finding good for gaming rules/large PDF files? I think it's probably time for me to get one shortly, but I do.t want one that's going to struggle with some of the larger pdf files I have...

Don't

I got a cheaper one a few months back specifically for using pdf's on and it sucks. Well, not sucks - it's like almost good enough. It's a 7" single core 1.2 ghz with 512 megs of ram that was like $50 on sale. It doesn't have enough memory to fully load the pdf so if i open it up, then jump ahead like 50 pages, it has to reload, and then if i go back to where I just was, it has to reload again. The 800x480 resolution is not good enough to make text readable without zooming in. And it really doesn't like running more than one thing at a time. Basically it's only good for checking forums or email or playing Angry Birds, but not all simultaneously. Definitely get a multicore tablet with1-2 gigs at least so it can fully load a pdf into memory with an HD screen. I'd spend at least 200 on a good one otherwise you may regret it.

You'll also find the really cheap no-name tablets have batteries that last all of 5 mins

i've heard good things about a generic company called Contixo that makes good budget tablets, I've been eyeing the LR102 with a 1.6 ghz dual core, 1 gig of ram, and 1024x600 10.1" display and up to 8 hours battery life.

I keep my pdf rulebooks on my Kindle Fire and haven't had any issues.

Galaxy tab 2, 10.1 inch. Only cost me £200 and its fanrastic. I use it for all my internet needs now as well as getting gaming PDFs etc...

 scarletsquig wrote:
Quick note: Basilean Legacy is up for sale digitally for only $5:

http://www.wargamevault.com/product/126277/The-Basilean-Legacy---A-Kings-of-War-Supplement

Recommend getting it. It has three army lists, the new magic items and new Zap! rules. As well as rather a lot of background which is quite fun to read.

Kings and Legends is there as well, the book isn't as good or essential though, it is more expensive for a much smaller book that just has the ogre list which is free online anyway and overpowered special characters not intended for balanced games.

Oh yeah!! I am doing a Basilean army (I like the men at arms! :p) for Kings of War versus my brother's Undead army, and this was all I was waiting for to get army background.

 Azazelx wrote:
Out of interest, what kinds of tablets are people finding good for gaming rules/large PDF files? I think it's probably time for me to get one shortly, but I do.t want one that's going to struggle with some of the larger pdf files I have...

Don't

About this time last year I got a pretty good Toshiba AT300 from JB Hifi for well under retail - nothing wrong with the tablet at all, it just never had enough hook to generate sales over the iPad/Galaxytab/Googletab, so Toshiba were abandoning the market and dumping all their remaining local stock for a pittance.

Ideally you should watch for things like that happening.

I use a Kindle Fire HD 8.9" for my portable pdf needs.

It can be a bit sluggish with some pdfs, but others run well.
For example, I noticed the new Warmachine league pdf loads slow, while the Deadzone rulebook is very smooth.

NTRabbit wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Out of interest, what kinds of tablets are people finding good for gaming rules/large PDF files? I think it's probably time for me to get one shortly, but I do.t want one that's going to struggle with some of the larger pdf files I have...

Don't

About this time last year I got a pretty good Toshiba AT300 from JB Hifi for well under retail - nothing wrong with the tablet at all, it just never had enough hook to generate sales over the iPad/Galaxytab/Googletab, so Toshiba were abandoning the market and dumping all their remaining local stock for a pittance.

Ideally you should watch for things like that happening.

Good point, but it's a bit hard to plan purchases around that sort of thing - it's more of an impulse/reactionary purchase. I think my lead runner for the moment is a Samsung Galaxy TAB3 10.1" 16GB from DSE in 2 1/2 weeks or so for AU$348. Electronics are one of the few things I'm not comfortable with buying online/via mail order.

Still, it'll be much easier to use the PDF rules for stuff like KoW when playing. I might even buy the Basilean Legacy for $5 despite having the book!

New dwarfs from the latest blog post.

The Time of War is Now

Kings of War is the game of epic fantasy battles and the next two months sees the launch of the new Hellfire and Stone supplement, as well as brand new additions to the Dwarfs and Abyssal Dwarfs.

Dwarfs

Dwarfs dwell in great halls under the earth, having carved out a subterranean empire beneath the feet of the surface peoples. They are unyielding in all matters, whether in business or war, and they excel at both.



The Dwarfs are a stolid race of warriors, skilled with hammer and axe, and we’re revisiting them with the new Bulwarkers, Dwarf Bombard and Berserker Brock Riders, adding speed, armour and all-round devastation to this army – plus a few new heroic characters too!

The new units will join the substantial plastic range we already have, which will also get a freshening-up with new photography.

Abyssal Dwarfs

An army of Abyssal Dwarfs is a terrifying prospect to face. Blending the prodigious weaponcraft of the Dwarfs with the dark sorcery of the Abyss, these degenerates march out to secure slaves for their vast forge-pits.



Fuelled by the patronage of cruel gods, the Abyssal Dwarfs excel at close-quarters fighting where they can witness the suffering they inflict first-hand. They are supported by evil creatures summoned from the depths of the Abyss itself, as well as disturbing hybrids born of twisted experiments.

For the first time the Abyssal Dwarfs are getting all-plastic infantry kits with no less than the Immortal Guard, Gargoyles, and Lesser Obsidian Golems ranking up alongside the Halfbreed Cavalry, Katsuchan Rocket Launcher, Black Souls and Decimators.

The new additions means a revamped Army Set for each race alongside the new regiment kits so that you can build and grow the core of your army nice and easily, and a beautiful new book by Alessio Cavatore and Dylan Owen to create an all-new Kings of War experience.

Over the next couple of weeks we’re going to be delving into these units as well as explore the armies of Kings of War. We want to see your armies and hear your tales of battle. Leaves us pictures on the Mantic Facebook page and please, recount your most famous battles in the comments!

Ready your swords and gather your army, war is coming to Mantica!

PS – Check back on Friday for more previews and all you need to know about the Hellfire and Stone supplement!

Mantic Games

Pretty certain they mean Restic not sprued hard plastic, unless anyone knows different?

Some new news! Some new units being released that weren't part of the Kickstarter.

Dwarf and Abyssal Dwarf releases are coming next month, more details on Friday:

http://manticblog.com/2014/03/19/the-time-of-war-is-now/

Dwarfs are getting Brock Riders, Bombard and Bulwarkers.

Abyssal Dwarfs are getting their kickstarter stuff (gargoyles, abyssal golems, immortal guard).

Both armies are also getting a new army set and some characters.

There will also be a supplement book detailing the wars between the two races.

Oooooh plastic Abyssal Dwarfs? I might have to look into that. I've never been fond of dwarfs really but the Abyssal ones look interesting. Plus I have the idea to make them like WoW' Dark Iron Dwarves, complete with the golem thingies which they conveniently have.

Actually I'm a bit confused, are these NEW releases or things that were around that just haven't been released yet? I mean, is this going to be new Abyssal Dwarf plastics to replace the plastic+metal ones that there are now, or something else?

Color me curious about this too.

If we get some real plastic abyssal dwarves, I'd be up for a few. I've always liked the centaur types, but can't be bothered in metal or a mixture of different materials.

By plastic they mean restic, naturally.

Sounds like a bunch of the releases are KS minis that a bunch of us have already. Brock Riders are cool models, and the golems looked awesome. Should be a good release.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Sounds like a bunch of the releases are KS minis that a bunch of us have already. Brock Riders are cool models, and the golems looked awesome. Should be a good release.

That might explain why I've seen pictures of brock riders, but have never been able to find them available to order. So maybe they are mass-producing the previous KS-only things, and adding more?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scarletsquig wrote:
By plastic they mean restic, naturally.

Is their "restic" like the same stuff as what PP uses for Warmahordes? I get confused by the terms because I've heard "restic" used for the other kind of plastic (i.e. not the kind GW uses) as well as actual plastic/resin hybrids.

Since I have Mantic liked on Facebook I asked there, maybe I'll get an update.

 scarletsquig wrote:
new units being released that weren't part of the Kickstarter.

I don't understand the statement. Can someone translate?

 Azazelx wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
new units being released that weren't part of the Kickstarter.

I don't understand the statement. Can someone translate?

I think that means the Bulwarkers and Dwarf Bombard. Didn't back the ks so not entirely sure.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Sounds like a bunch of the releases are KS minis that a bunch of us have already. Brock Riders are cool models, and the golems looked awesome. Should be a good release.

That might explain why I've seen pictures of brock riders, but have never been able to find them available to order. So maybe they are mass-producing the previous KS-only things, and adding more?

Is their "restic" like the same stuff as what PP uses for Warmahordes? I get confused by the terms because I've heard "restic" used for the other kind of plastic (i.e. not the kind GW uses) as well as actual plastic/resin hybrids.

More or less. There are different formulations of the stuff (as there are with metal, resin, etc) but basically the same. Even Mantic's stuff varies between high quality, perfect casts, almost as good as HIPS like the undead cavalry and shoddy, warped stuff hurriedly torn off sprues (all their KS stuff).

It also looks like they've sculpted a "command set" for the brock riders. Ordinarily those would be metal, as they did with the Ogres, but maybe they're restic this time? Not sure, Mantic isn't really known for being upfront or entirely honest about materials these days. Hence calling restic plastic. (And any pedants who want to argue the finer technical points can just feth off in advance, we all know what we mean. )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 edlowe wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
new units being released that weren't part of the Kickstarter.

I don't understand the statement. Can someone translate?

I think that means the Bulwarkers and Dwarf Bombard. Didn't back the ks so not entirely sure.

Oh, I know. I was just being a sarcastic prick.

 scarletsquig wrote:
By plastic they mean restic, naturally.

Crap. Was hoping at least some of these would be hard plastic.

 scarletsquig wrote:
By plastic they mean restic, naturally.

That would be unfortunate. I've gpt a 2000 point Bad Guy (Evil humans and their allies) without a single Mantic miniature in it. If they were hard plastic, I'd definitely add some Abyssal dwarf units. Might still grab a unit if they go on sale somewhere, but I'm really not interested in more Restic miniatures.

Forgive me for dragging this a bit offtopic but what's so bad about "restic"? I don't personally have experience but I've seen PP's "plastic" which seems to be roughly the same and it doesn't seem that bad.

Dont mind restic on the larger figures. I picked up 6 trolls stupidly cheap with no mold lines at all. A bit of hot water bending but thats a quirk of the material. I'll definitely be looking at some golems, im thinking of a full on golem army for my first kow tourney force.

on the smaller figures it can be a right pain in the arse to remove from detailed areas due to it roughing up if not cut away. Unfortunately you can't just scrape the mold lines off with a blade. Still it depends on the models and where the moldlines are.

Mabe we could do with a Mantic Restic thread to direct people to it does seem to confuse people just what it is and how to deal with it.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Forgive me for dragging this a bit offtopic but what's so bad about "restic"? I don't personally have experience but I've seen PP's "plastic" which seems to be roughly the same and it doesn't seem that bad.

My personal experience with Restic has been that sometimes the results aren't quite as nice as metal, but cost only a smidge less. Also, the restic kits usually lack the variety and pose-ability (usually limited in Mantic's plastic, but still...) and aren't as good a deal as plastic.

I think many folks regard Restic as an unsatisfactory compromise. It enables Mantic to get more units into production faster than hard plastic kits, but at a higher price and with the drawbacks listed above.

Nice to see the Immortal Guard getting some new command pieces, namely the standard and drums. Also looks like a completely new sculpt for the champion, but his hammer is maaahoosive.

Am interested to see the rrp for the Obsidian Golems, they are very big lumps of restic. Overall the Abyssal Dwarf kits are a great release for any fans of the army, really help to fill it out. I would recommend all 3 AD kits, just remember that hot water is your friend when ranking the Gargoyles up.


On the "vanilla" Dwarf side the Brock rider standard and instrument look a little odd, nice to see some good fully painted pictures of the unit though. Also glad that KOW has not been forgotten.

I don't think restic is that bad. I would say that the clean-up time is about the same as metal, slightly faster even. They are definitely easier and faster to assemble than metal. Especially if you use hot water to make fit them together. Scraping the mould lines is not a problem if you use a soft wire brush afterwards.
I prefer them to metal, especially in games like dreadball where you handle the figures a lot.

This is all with the reservation that the biggest amount of restic miniatures I have had to deal with at one time is 21 from the dreadball box set. I would imagine that restic would be overwhelming if you get huge amount of miniatures from a kickstarter or such. Also compared to injection plastic, restic is clearly inferior.


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The abyssals look a great IMO. When it comes to the Brock riders, I do not like the saddles and how they sit on the badgers, looks like they are sitting on a box that is sitting on the badgers.

 edlowe wrote:
...[restic]...on the smaller figures it can be a right pain in the arse to remove from detailed areas due to it roughing up if not cut away. Unfortunately you can't just scrape the mold lines off with a blade. Still it depends on the models and where the moldlines are....

This. After so much slicing, scraping (I know you're supposed to cut but there comes a time...) and using a brass brush there comes a point where I just start priming.
Don't have this level of headache with hard plastic.
Purposely didn't pick up the Basileans because of this material.

Only reason I buy the DB and DZ stuff is because I like the concept/game enough to paint them up, mold lines and all.

 scarletsquig wrote:
By plastic they mean restic, naturally.

They really should stop saying that...

WayneTheGame wrote:

Actually I'm a bit confused, are these NEW releases or things that were around that just haven't been released yet?

Not sure about the AB side of things, but of the dwarf side, only the basic brock riders were in the KS. Their command group, bulwarkers and bombarb will be new.

I'd be surprised if the bombarb and bulwarkers weren't plastic. Almost all the dwarf range is HP on sprues.

Anyway, more units for my growing swarf KoW horde.

Bulwarkers are metal bits, I believe. Saw something on the Mantic forums about someone visiting Mantic and there were pictures.

Honestly the restic/pvc Immortal Guard are nice little sculpts with a large variety of heads. One of my favs from the KS and I think I'll actually buy a regiment of them.

My restic fatigue is getting pretty serious. Mantic would have to do something extraordinary to get me to buy more of that crappy stuff.


Although... Can you imagine cleaning the mold lines off of a restic Mandlebrot Set?

That is quite possibly the coolest thing I have ever seen.

Would these have any suitable proxy in a WFB Dwarf army, ... I suppose not really?

Some more pics, unofficial ones, obviously, but they'll do until the proper ones are shown off tomorrow:

Courtesy of Orcsbain on the Mantic forums:

Cannon and Brock Lord look decent and good, respectively. Withholding judgement on spider-dwarf, and still not a fan of the plastic dorfs.

I asked on their FB page if this was replacing the hybrids, and they said that:

Just specific units, the black souls (though you could use the Immortal Guard to represent them) and the decimators remain hybrids. The Golems, Gargoyles and Immortal Guard are all pure plastic, with metal command components for the Guard.

So it looks like these aren't new things after all, just producing what might have been KS-only kits for general sale? A little less interested in this now since I don't care for this hybrid plastic+metal stuff.

Cannon crew looks really nice, but I'm probably just gonna go for the supplement.

The bulwarkers look like their 10 warriors and 10 ironwatch. Using the warriors for the front and rear ranks and the ironwatch (missile troops) for the middle. Quite a good idea just with the dwarfs were less ram man in style. The metal dwarf characters are really nice.

What unit entry does the "spider dwarf" represent? Nice and different looking though. A shame that the Bulwarkers are metal add ons, I like the pavises/shields but not all that keen on the spears. That said I have a lot of Dwarfs to paint so a unit or two of these will probably find their way into my army.

Awesome! That spider-dwarf thing reminds me of the Dwemer that was hidden in one of the Elder Scrolls games (was it Morrowind?)

And those are some kind of dwarf pikeman?

 Pacific wrote:
Awesome! That spider-dwarf thing reminds me of the Dwemer that was hidden in one of the Elder Scrolls games (was it Morrowind?)

Found him.

That's the one! Although he does look somewhat less hostile than this guy. (As a side note, who killed the last Demiurg when they encountered it? )

Those badger-riders do look very nice. Any news on how much they are likely to cost?

Most likely the usual price for cavalry, £20 for 10.

Ohhh...pre-orders for the new stuff is up and there's some repackaged other units.

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/pre-order/advance-order-kings-of-war.html

£19.99 for 20 decimators is a huge price drop isn't it? It used to be £17.99 for 10 I think (like Twilight Kin).

Was hoping for better pictures of AD weird spider dude and a chance to preorder...

 edlowe wrote:
Dont mind restic on the larger figures. I picked up 6 trolls stupidly cheap with no mold lines at all. A bit of hot water bending but thats a quirk of the material. I'll definitely be looking at some golems, im thinking of a full on golem army for my first kow tourney force.

on the smaller figures it can be a right pain in the arse to remove from detailed areas due to it roughing up if not cut away. Unfortunately you can't just scrape the mold lines off with a blade. Still it depends on the models and where the moldlines are.

Exactly... I've got a ton of the golems from the KS (a friendly Dakkanaut added them on for me ), and restic is fine for those. For smaller more delicate models... not so much.

Liking the artwork!



And, I'll post all the other new pics for the hell of it since who wants to click through all those thumbnails anyway rather than just glance at this thread?







I'm liking the new design direction for the dwarves a lot, much more character and detail on them. The brock riders look nice and belligerent, and the non-helmed abyssals are great, really evil looking and bald.