I believe the pre-order pause is so that they can undertake the warehouse move they have had planned for a while (they had already issued a notice to independent stores that they will not receive any shipments from GW from next week until early May as a warning to stock up on anything that may go out of stock during this period).
Why would a warehouse move they knew was coming affect preorders they knew were coming? More likely this is either an unforseen interruption in the supply chain of something or some legal fallout with Chinese imports.
IGtR= wrote: I can tell you that if you have the opportunity to sell your good/service at full price, and the capacity, you do it. There is no advantage to GW for hobbyists with £££ and nothing GW to spend on it going to buy a product from GW's rivals.
How would the business genius class of Dakka explain FOMO for CC in a shareholder's meeting as leading to either long-term value or short-term cashflow? Would the announcement the next day that CC was coming back have harmed GW and if so, how?
Exactly.
As entertaining as this discussion is, but if FOMO was indeed the goal, what would that look like from within GW?
They are a fairly big company, big enough to have an internal structure similar to other large companies. That means there will be a dedicated project team for Cursed City, or for Quest as the project. That team will have to compete internally for resources (read: production slots, other budgets), but they will also be measured for success, and 'success' will be seen in relation to budget. In the FOMO scenario, what would the defined 'success' be, on which their manager's bonus depends? Assess demand for the product, then secretly make sure only half of that is available? You think they wrote that down for her/him? I'd love to see that leaked.
While it's certainly possible that Cursed City is lower priority than other products, and has to make way in a production shortage, this clearly is not a situation with which GW is happy. Not even speaking of causing it deliberately.
lord_blackfang wrote: Why would a warehouse move they knew was coming affect preorders they knew were coming? More likely this is either an unforseen interruption in the supply chain of something or some legal fallout with Chinese imports.
As they are setting up a new warehouse and moving the entire between locations so they won’t be able to send out any orders for a couple of weeks. There is no point letting people make preorders if they are not able to send them out.
lord_blackfang wrote: Why would a warehouse move they knew was coming affect preorders they knew were coming? More likely this is either an unforseen interruption in the supply chain of something or some legal fallout with Chinese imports.
As they are setting up a new warehouse and moving the entire between locations so they won’t be able to send out any orders for a couple of weeks. There is no point letting people make preorders if they are not able to send them out.
So you're saying this new warehouse suddenly fell out of the sky cause otherwise they wouldn't have scheduled any preorders for moving week in the first place?
lord_blackfang wrote: Why would a warehouse move they knew was coming affect preorders they knew were coming? More likely this is either an unforseen interruption in the supply chain of something or some legal fallout with Chinese imports.
As they are setting up a new warehouse and moving the entire between locations so they won’t be able to send out any orders for a couple of weeks. There is no point letting people make preorders if they are not able to send them out.
So you're saying this new warehouse suddenly fell out of the sky cause otherwise they wouldn't have scheduled any preorders for moving week in the first place?
No, I am saying this is a preplanned hold on preorders. Why do you think they scheduled any preorders for the next few weeks? The preorder schedule is changing as they are placing a hold on the weekly preorder system they usually have in place.
lord_blackfang wrote: Why would a warehouse move they knew was coming affect preorders they knew were coming? More likely this is either an unforseen interruption in the supply chain of something or some legal fallout with Chinese imports.
As they are setting up a new warehouse and moving the entire between locations so they won’t be able to send out any orders for a couple of weeks. There is no point letting people make preorders if they are not able to send them out.
So you're saying this new warehouse suddenly fell out of the sky cause otherwise they wouldn't have scheduled any preorders for moving week in the first place?
Or perhaps this is a planned pause in shipping things out that they've known of for ages and just didn't tell us because there wasn't any point? GW doesn't need to tell customers that they won't be shipping new things 2 months in a advance or whatever. They just do it and its only a few weeks with a pause on things during a period of time where we expect that. Heck most companies have had to pause in the last year for various reasons more than once.
we have to make some changes to when the next batch of incredible Warhammer releases come out
This doesn't say they're changing some assumed pattern, it says they're changing specific dates of specific items.
Add the Cursed City vanishing and it's clear something unexpected happened. New warehouses aren't unexpected.
I read it that GW is changing their regular release pattern (new stuff every week) to account for the warehouse change. Something that they were likely well aware of, but which customers were not. So its a change for us in terms of when things come, its not necessarily a change for GW staff and such in the same way.
we have to make some changes to when the next batch of incredible Warhammer releases come out
This doesn't say they're changing some assumed pattern, it says they're changing specific dates of specific items.
Add the Cursed City vanishing and it's clear something unexpected happened. New warehouses aren't unexpected.
That’s them letting us know that they are placing a hold on the usual weekly preorder system, that doesn’t mean they are changing specific dates of specific models.
You can read it however you want but it doesn't change what it actually says.
What we're seeing is another mass delusion with everyone parroting some random hearsay about a new warehouse that doesn't even explain the other mysterious stock shortage that happened within the same week.
"over the next couple of weeks, there will be a short pause where we’ll have no new pre-orders. Have no fear, though – new releases will be coming your way before you know it."
Where this fits in with Cursed City getting a reprint (or not) is unclear.
But I will be interested to see the response from the 'FOMO Brigade' who think that underselling a product which clearly has tens of thousands of customers who would have paid full price (or perhaps a premium) as some sort of 4-D chess.
As someone in a top-end provider service provider (albeit as a lawyer I don't have experience of manufacturing), I can tell you that if you have the opportunity to sell your good/service at full price, and the capacity, you do it. There is no advantage to GW for hobbyists with £££ and nothing GW to spend on it going to buy a product from GW's rivals.
If GW wanted this to be limited, they could have charged double the price, and been upfront about it being highly limited. Or, the much easier proposition, they could have made it a smaller undertaking to design/produce/market. Why not make it an exclusive Underworlds Warband?
How would the business genius class of Dakka explain FOMO for CC in a shareholder's meeting as leading to either long-term value or short-term cashflow? Would the announcement the next day that CC was coming back have harmed GW and if so, how?
FOMO Brigade, charge!!!!!
There can of course be discussion as to whether GW is employing artificial scarcity in this or other cases, but to dismiss it as a concept out of hand is demented. Its a well established tactic to increase perceived value, which is all GW has really.
I’d imagine ‘we are artificially manipulating supply of our products to increase perceived value alongside gradually increasing prices with each release to increase profit per unit exponentially’ is a much easer sell to shareholders than ‘lol sorry guys we thought only 1,000 people would want this thing we’ve been hyping for months now, even though we’ve been shown umpteen times to be massively incorrect and incapable of gauging our market, still thanks for trusting us with your money’.
"over the next couple of weeks, there will be a short pause where we’ll have no new pre-orders. Have no fear, though – new releases will be coming your way before you know it."
Where this fits in with Cursed City getting a reprint (or not) is unclear.
But I will be interested to see the response from the 'FOMO Brigade' who think that underselling a product which clearly has tens of thousands of customers who would have paid full price (or perhaps a premium) as some sort of 4-D chess.
As someone in a top-end provider service provider (albeit as a lawyer I don't have experience of manufacturing), I can tell you that if you have the opportunity to sell your good/service at full price, and the capacity, you do it. There is no advantage to GW for hobbyists with £££ and nothing GW to spend on it going to buy a product from GW's rivals.
If GW wanted this to be limited, they could have charged double the price, and been upfront about it being highly limited. Or, the much easier proposition, they could have made it a smaller undertaking to design/produce/market. Why not make it an exclusive Underworlds Warband?
How would the business genius class of Dakka explain FOMO for CC in a shareholder's meeting as leading to either long-term value or short-term cashflow? Would the announcement the next day that CC was coming back have harmed GW and if so, how?
FOMO Brigade, charge!!!!!
There can of course be discussion as to whether GW is employing artificial scarcity in this or other cases, but to dismiss it as a concept out of hand is demented. Its a well established tactic to increase perceived value, which is all GW has really.
I’d imagine ‘we are artificially manipulating supply of our products to increase perceived value alongside gradually increasing prices with each release to increase profit per unit exponentially’ is a much easer sell to shareholders than ‘lol sorry guys we thought only 1,000 people would want this thing we’ve been hyping for months now, even though we’ve been shown umpteen times to be massively incorrect and incapable of gauging our market, still thanks for trusting us with your money’.
"over the next couple of weeks, there will be a short pause where we’ll have no new pre-orders. Have no fear, though – new releases will be coming your way before you know it."
Where this fits in with Cursed City getting a reprint (or not) is unclear.
But I will be interested to see the response from the 'FOMO Brigade' who think that underselling a product which clearly has tens of thousands of customers who would have paid full price (or perhaps a premium) as some sort of 4-D chess.
As someone in a top-end provider service provider (albeit as a lawyer I don't have experience of manufacturing), I can tell you that if you have the opportunity to sell your good/service at full price, and the capacity, you do it. There is no advantage to GW for hobbyists with £££ and nothing GW to spend on it going to buy a product from GW's rivals.
If GW wanted this to be limited, they could have charged double the price, and been upfront about it being highly limited. Or, the much easier proposition, they could have made it a smaller undertaking to design/produce/market. Why not make it an exclusive Underworlds Warband?
How would the business genius class of Dakka explain FOMO for CC in a shareholder's meeting as leading to either long-term value or short-term cashflow? Would the announcement the next day that CC was coming back have harmed GW and if so, how?
FOMO Brigade, charge!!!!!
There can of course be discussion as to whether GW is employing artificial scarcity in this or other cases, but to dismiss it as a concept out of hand is demented. Its a well established tactic to increase perceived value, which is all GW has really.
I’d imagine ‘we are artificially manipulating supply of our products to increase perceived value alongside gradually increasing prices with each release to increase profit per unit exponentially’ is a much easer sell to shareholders than ‘lol sorry guys we thought only 1,000 people would want this thing we’ve been hyping for months now, even though we’ve been shown umpteen times to be massively incorrect and incapable of gauging our market, still thanks for trusting us with your money’.
Of course artificial scarcity is a concept, and GW employs it every now and then. Just not this time.
If I was a shareholder I would ask, why not sell 2,000 copies, make (more than, because overhead) twice the money, and the perceived value would be dented only slightly?
"over the next couple of weeks, there will be a short pause where we’ll have no new pre-orders. Have no fear, though – new releases will be coming your way before you know it."
Where this fits in with Cursed City getting a reprint (or not) is unclear.
But I will be interested to see the response from the 'FOMO Brigade' who think that underselling a product which clearly has tens of thousands of customers who would have paid full price (or perhaps a premium) as some sort of 4-D chess.
As someone in a top-end provider service provider (albeit as a lawyer I don't have experience of manufacturing), I can tell you that if you have the opportunity to sell your good/service at full price, and the capacity, you do it. There is no advantage to GW for hobbyists with £££ and nothing GW to spend on it going to buy a product from GW's rivals.
If GW wanted this to be limited, they could have charged double the price, and been upfront about it being highly limited. Or, the much easier proposition, they could have made it a smaller undertaking to design/produce/market. Why not make it an exclusive Underworlds Warband?
How would the business genius class of Dakka explain FOMO for CC in a shareholder's meeting as leading to either long-term value or short-term cashflow? Would the announcement the next day that CC was coming back have harmed GW and if so, how?
FOMO Brigade, charge!!!!!
There can of course be discussion as to whether GW is employing artificial scarcity in this or other cases, but to dismiss it as a concept out of hand is demented. Its a well established tactic to increase perceived value, which is all GW has really.
I’d imagine ‘we are artificially manipulating supply of our products to increase perceived value alongside gradually increasing prices with each release to increase profit per unit exponentially’ is a much easer sell to shareholders than ‘lol sorry guys we thought only 1,000 people would want this thing we’ve been hyping for months now, even though we’ve been shown umpteen times to be massively incorrect and incapable of gauging our market, still thanks for trusting us with your money’.
Thanks for the response, interesting to see your take here.
I agree that FOMO is a concept, but I think what you seem to be missing is that a core component is that it is pre-announced, or an integral part of the business model. Fashion houses, sneakers, other Ltd Eds specifically hype up the LIMITED part about it; that would be the focus of the pre-sale marketing. More of the "Last Chance to Buy" thing where GW bring it back for a short period. Kickstarters give you a limited window to get in to achieve a similar aim.
I don't think you would see the words "artificially manipulating supply" in an annual report! In any event, you think they "artificially manipulated supply" and yet the price was broadly comparable with BSF (give or take a bit of normal inflation on prices).
What do you mean by a "tactic to increase perceived value, which is all GW has really." Do you think GW has standard/substandard products? Do you think GW as a business is overvalued (a wholly separate question)?
On the broader point, I find it odd that you think that instead of totalling biffing this up (not unprecedented in the corporate world, and frankly Dakka's large-scale inability to understand that SMEs do not dominate the world supply chains/legal infrastructure/have omniscience/are not bond villains, appears at best to me based on not understanding how a business actually functions), GW have a long game, where they think that AoS fans will, instead of being burned and spending their money elsewhere (a considerable risk, and one GW must be aware of FOR A BOARDGAME), simply buy MORE releases (because speed of sale does not matter to GW nearly as much as maximising returns will), and they decided to do this to a big box and planned their post roll-out comms snafu and suddenly pulling the webpage? Again, please explain to me why they didn't just do this with the vampires warband and charge double or hell even triple for that product? Less effort, and therefore more return for them, on that box.
There is also the option that the warehouse move was brought forward due to the shipment of boxes from china had to go the long way round Africa, so it's a quieter month than the one they had planned.
Pause in production as complete sets weren't ready, so there's not a constant supply of new inventory coming in.
TheGoodGerman does a great job summing it up. When your understanding of how GW's business operations work comes from the internet and what you read on message boards, lots and lots of stuff sounds possible. If you actually were in GW's corporate offices and said all of it out loud they'd look at you like you had two heads and were completely out of your mind, because it's pants on your head level nonsense.
Did GW brass intentionally undersell this product so they could tell their shareholders a bunch of meaningless buzz words that have no relation to reality and which wouldn't cut it with 99% of adults in the business world? Of course not. Is a little knowledge dangerous? Absolutely.
we have to make some changes to when the next batch of incredible Warhammer releases come out
This doesn't say they're changing some assumed pattern, it says they're changing specific dates of specific items.
Add the Cursed City vanishing and it's clear something unexpected happened. New warehouses aren't unexpected.
That’s them letting us know that they are placing a hold on the usual weekly preorder system, that doesn’t mean they are changing specific dates of specific models.
Well, obviously they are.
Next preorders are explicitly now in May.
Ad mech (codex and new character) were slated for April (its in the preview video, in binary). They hadn't announced a specific date in April, but obviously they had one internally. And that date has changed by at least a week, if not two or three.
frankelee wrote: FOMO is a real underpants gnome level theory for explaining GW's sales tactics. Though perhaps that explains some of the more interesting mental stretches I've seen around the forums concerning the 'absolutely insane costs of holding an item in a warehouse' and 'the genius business strategy of producing small amounts of a product to make sure you sell it all.' The problem with all this is the people are GW aren't guys on internet forums pretending to know what they're talking about, they'd never come up with any of this stuff themselves.
It takes but a few seconds to google how luxury brands (which GW sees itself as) use artificial scarcity to drive up their perceived value and prices, you could have done that instead of typing this dog turd post man, use your time better!
I get its hard to admit you’ve been duped many, many times, but c’mon dudes this product, and many like it, sold out within hours of its preorder... how incompetent do people think this highly successful company is? So much more comforting to think some tragedy has befallen GW’s supply chain then to accept participation in a con job i guess.
Of course GW use artificial scarcity to boost sales. Every tried to get one of the limited edition Siege of Terra hardbacks? They go in minutes. They could clearly print twice as many and still sell them. Or the limited edition Sisters of Battle box? Or going back further, Space Hulk 4th edition? All pushed as limited products, one print run only, get them while you can items. Quite openly. Whether you like the ethics of that or not, they clearly do it, know how to do it, and do it quite brazenly.
What's nonsense is this idea that instead of employing that tactic, which works for them on a regular basis, they'd instead take something that isn't meant to be a limited edition, say that it isn't and will be available in the future, and then quickly change that after it sells out to, I dunno, stop people from trusting them and make them panic that every product might be limited regardless of what they say, so they should order on release day just to be sure?
And the evidence for this?
Indomitus. The first part of this evil plan. They say it's a single run but there will be plenty for everyone and then, shock, there aren't! Mission complete right, loads of people missed out on Indomitus, as we told them they didn't need to rush and buy and the idiots fell for it! They'll know better next time. Except they then went and printed a load more copies and I was still able to get one a month ago. Not sure how that fits the cunning plan.
So then that just leaves Piety and Pain and Cursed City. The former is one of those boxes that are always limited, we were surprised by how limited it was but we'd all assumed it would go away eventually. And Cursed City. I'm not sure two products constitutes a pattern. Especially as they've released a 100 or so other products that don't follow the pattern during the same timescale...
Could be loads of reasons. It's pointless to speculate. Shouldn't this thread die now? The box is out and in hands. How many pages of speculation and arguing more do we really need
Of course GW use artificial scarcity to boost sales. Every tried to get one of the limited edition Siege of Terra hardbacks? They go in minutes. They could clearly print twice as many and still sell them.
Boosting sales by selling half as many as they clearly could. fething genius!
Some of these replies boggle the mind. What gw wants is a guaranteed return on their investment. The bean counters at gw are happy if gw projects sales of say 20,000 copies and sells all those copies.
Let’s say hypothetically a box costs half of the sales price to assemble ship and store. In this scenario if gw produces 50,000 but sells 34,000 they would make less profit than by selling out a run of 20,000. If gw produces 100,000 copies but sells 49,000 copies they would lose money.
The other thing worth pointing out is that gw made 25% more money in the second half of 2020 than the previous year. It is much more feasible that gw underestimated demand by 25% than it is to say that they tried to create a sense of FOMO.
@Chikout - The argument against that is for a franchise like Warhammer Quest, it should be able to sell and sell. It has an attraction beyond focussed warhammer fan groups to casual players that played the original games in the 90s or even the Heroquest games. I would also say there is a fair bit of crossover with the boardgame (non-wargaming) market.
So in that sense, having this as a one and done, makes very little sense in terms of the additional sales it could have made over the coming decade (I don't think too much of a stretch if you look at the lifespan some 'classic' boardgames achieve).
Let’s say hypothetically a box costs half of the sales price to assemble ship and store. In this scenario if gw produces 50,000 but sells 34,000 they would make less profit than by selling out a run of 20,000. If gw produces 100,000 copies but sells 49,000 copies they would lose money.
That's not a sensible way to consider things. Due to the many fixed costs involved (design time, cost of making a mould, marketing costs etc etc) GWs cost per box is hugely variable. The first one off the production line has cost an absolute fortune, but the price per box goes down thereafter.
Marginal costs (the extra cost of a box added on to a production run) can be really low, 20% or less of retail, and are dependent on the size of a production run among other factors. .
Let’s say hypothetically a box costs half of the sales price to assemble ship and store. In this scenario if gw produces 50,000 but sells 34,000 they would make less profit than by selling out a run of 20,000. If gw produces 100,000 copies but sells 49,000 copies they would lose money.
That's not a sensible way to consider things. Due to the many fixed costs involved (design time, cost of making a mould, marketing costs etc etc) GWs cost per box is hugely variable. The first one off the production line has cost an absolute fortune, but the price per box goes down thereafter.
Marginal costs (the extra cost of a box added on to a production run) can be really low, 20% or less of retail, and are dependent on the size of a production run among other factors. .
That's why I said hypothetically. I just chose 50% as it makes the math easy. The principal is sound though. There is a point at which doing a larger run does not actually mean more profit.
Many companies have gone bankrupt by over producing products; Atari and thq being two well known examples. There are fairly reliable rumours that the over production of Gorkamorka almost did for GW.
This is a big deal for any company and if you read the first article can be devastating if not implemented correctly.
Frankly, it hasn't gone swimmingly and now a 3rd party has been drafted in to help (now on GW payroll permanently).
This has affected absolutely every aspect of their business and is causing quite a few headaches.
Combine this with the move into the new distribution hub (delayed by COVID and the above), Brexit (GW is being hit hard because it's products are manufactured in multiple countries of origin), Nottinghamshire Council not playing ball relating to GW's need for extra electricity supply so it can ramp up manufacturing, COVID causing all sorts of delays/problems, and Ever Green and you have a perfect storm that is hitting GW really badly right now.
Let’s say hypothetically a box costs half of the sales price to assemble ship and store. In this scenario if gw produces 50,000 but sells 34,000 they would make less profit than by selling out a run of 20,000. If gw produces 100,000 copies but sells 49,000 copies they would lose money.
That's not a sensible way to consider things. Due to the many fixed costs involved (design time, cost of making a mould, marketing costs etc etc) GWs cost per box is hugely variable. The first one off the production line has cost an absolute fortune, but the price per box goes down thereafter.
Marginal costs (the extra cost of a box added on to a production run) can be really low, 20% or less of retail, and are dependent on the size of a production run among other factors. .
That's why I said hypothetically. I just chose 50% as it makes the math easy. The principal is sound though. There is a point at which doing a larger run does not actually mean more profit.
Your hypothesis has been tested and it has been proved to be wrong. The maths may be easy but the principle is nonsensical.
There is indeed a point for any product at which a larger run does not mean more profit, for the company, but you're not shedding any light on what that number might be with your calculation.
This is a big deal for any company and if you read the first article can be devastating if not implemented correctly.
ERP means something else where I live
This seems likely for preorder disruption, not really for Cursed City vanishing.
ERP literally controls everything. If GW can't track where it is, where they are going to store it, how many they can manufacture, how they can get it to stores, how much the components cost etc etc I could quite easily see them doing a short, safe run for now and then looking at re-releasing it later if they can.
Your hypothesis has been tested and it has been proved to be wrong. The maths may be easy but the principle is nonsensical.
There is indeed a point for any product at which a larger run does not mean more profit, for the company, but you're not shedding any light on what that number might be with your calculation.
I think you're missing the point. I wasn't trying to say what the number is, simply that GW's production decisions are based on how likely they are to make a guaranteed profit rather than the potential of a higher profit. This is something you just agreed with so I'll leave it there.
This is a big deal for any company and if you read the first article can be devastating if not implemented correctly.
Frankly, it hasn't gone swimmingly and now a 3rd party has been drafted in to help (now on GW payroll permanently).
This has affected absolutely every aspect of their business and is causing quite a few headaches.
Combine this with the move into the new distribution hub (delayed by COVID and the above), Brexit (GW is being hit hard because it's products are manufactured in multiple countries of origin), Nottinghamshire Council not playing ball relating to GW's need for extra electricity supply so it can ramp up manufacturing, COVID causing all sorts of delays/problems, and Ever Green and you have a perfect storm that is hitting GW really badly right now.
OMG, El Reg and GeeDubs, this is the best crossover episode I have ever seen.
Thanks for the articles, I think you hit the nail on the head here. It all makes more sense now and I get why GW is going to be cagey about this sort of thing. I'd still like to see more transparency but now I can sympathize a little more.
This is a big deal for any company and if you read the first article can be devastating if not implemented correctly.
ERP means something else where I live
This seems likely for preorder disruption, not really for Cursed City vanishing.
In "my" region we usually name it after the company the main software comes from, SAP
and if there are problems with this it not only affect warehouse numbers or pre-orders but productions as a whole (and a minor error can change how many boxes are produced etc.)
This is a big deal for any company and if you read the first article can be devastating if not implemented correctly.
ERP means something else where I live
This seems likely for preorder disruption, not really for Cursed City vanishing.
In "my" region we usually name it after the company the main software comes from, SAP
and if there are problems with this it not only affect warehouse numbers or pre-orders but productions as a whole (and a minor error can change how many boxes are produced etc.)
No. You said that it was GW's plan to make only a fraction of the copies that would be needed to even meet demand for preorders. But as you did not engage with anything anybody else said, I'm not sure if you're just trolling at this point.
TheGoodGerman wrote: Well, I think we can put to rest the theory that Cursed City's production shortage was pre-planned by GW to show those puny consumers who is boss.
No. You said that it was GW's plan to make only a fraction of the copies that would be needed to even meet demand for preorders. But as you did not engage with anything anybody else said, I'm not sure if you're just trolling at this point.
Oh, and the Cursed City copy I've ordered from GW on the morning of the 9th, where I tried to cancel the order on the 10th but they sent it out anyway four days later, is still with UPS. Currently sitting at the customs agent in UK. Yay, Brexit!
But the copy I ordered at noon on the 9th from an online seller here in Germany arrived 20hours after I put the order in.
This is a big deal for any company and if you read the first article can be devastating if not implemented correctly.
Frankly, it hasn't gone swimmingly and now a 3rd party has been drafted in to help (now on GW payroll permanently).
This has affected absolutely every aspect of their business and is causing quite a few headaches.
Combine this with the move into the new distribution hub (delayed by COVID and the above), Brexit (GW is being hit hard because it's products are manufactured in multiple countries of origin), Nottinghamshire Council not playing ball relating to GW's need for extra electricity supply so it can ramp up manufacturing, COVID causing all sorts of delays/problems, and Ever Green and you have a perfect storm that is hitting GW really badly right now.
Given the so-called journalists couldn't be bothered to do the thing you're meant to do with acronyms - explain what they mean the first time you use them in a piece - in either fething article, can someone explain in plain English what ERP is meant to mean in this context?
This is a big deal for any company and if you read the first article can be devastating if not implemented correctly.
Frankly, it hasn't gone swimmingly and now a 3rd party has been drafted in to help (now on GW payroll permanently).
This has affected absolutely every aspect of their business and is causing quite a few headaches.
Combine this with the move into the new distribution hub (delayed by COVID and the above), Brexit (GW is being hit hard because it's products are manufactured in multiple countries of origin), Nottinghamshire Council not playing ball relating to GW's need for extra electricity supply so it can ramp up manufacturing, COVID causing all sorts of delays/problems, and Ever Green and you have a perfect storm that is hitting GW really badly right now.
Given the so-called journalists couldn't be bothered to do the thing you're meant to do with acronyms - explain what they mean the first time you use them in a piece - in either fething article, can someone explain in plain English what ERP is meant to mean in this context?
Wikipedia wrote:Enterprise resource planning (ERP) is the integrated management of main business processes, often in real time and mediated by software and technology.
ERP is usually referred to as a category of business management software—typically a suite of integrated applications—that an organization can use to collect, store, manage, and interpret data from many business activities. ERP Systems can be local based or Cloud based. Cloud based applications are growing in recent days .
Of course GW use artificial scarcity to boost sales. Every tried to get one of the limited edition Siege of Terra hardbacks? They go in minutes. They could clearly print twice as many and still sell them.
Boosting sales by selling half as many as they clearly could. fething genius!
It works though. In book publishing the scarcity of first editions drives their value. People are literally buying the books as collectables. So the small number available helps drives sales. And the people that don't get the £50 limited edition will still then buy the £20 hardback so they don't out entirely.
This is a big deal for any company and if you read the first article can be devastating if not implemented correctly.
Frankly, it hasn't gone swimmingly and now a 3rd party has been drafted in to help (now on GW payroll permanently).
This has affected absolutely every aspect of their business and is causing quite a few headaches.
Combine this with the move into the new distribution hub (delayed by COVID and the above), Brexit (GW is being hit hard because it's products are manufactured in multiple countries of origin), Nottinghamshire Council not playing ball relating to GW's need for extra electricity supply so it can ramp up manufacturing, COVID causing all sorts of delays/problems, and Ever Green and you have a perfect storm that is hitting GW really badly right now.
Given the so-called journalists couldn't be bothered to do the thing you're meant to do with acronyms - explain what they mean the first time you use them in a piece - in either fething article, can someone explain in plain English what ERP is meant to mean in this context?
ERP stands for Enterprise Resource Planning and refers to software and systems used to plan and manage all the core supply chain, manufacturing, services, financial and other processes of an organization
A better description in plainer english than I can give. I mostly worked with/on the back end of them so am only barely familiar with what they actually do from a user perspective
Crispy78 wrote: So I guess DXC Technology wrote GW a really good covering letter saying how much they love Space Marines, and got the contract based on that???
Better than the company before them (or possibly 2 before) who got it because their boss was married to GW's boss...
My comment above was intended to be flippant - but it is perfectly possible for big companies to screw things up. And an ERP migration is a hard thing to get right.
I think it took my employers a good 5-6 years and about a billion dollars...
This is a big deal for any company and if you read the first article can be devastating if not implemented correctly.
ERP means something else where I live
This seems likely for preorder disruption, not really for Cursed City vanishing.
In "my" region we usually name it after the company the main software comes from, SAP
and if there are problems with this it not only affect warehouse numbers or pre-orders but productions as a whole (and a minor error can change how many boxes are produced etc.)
Crispy78 wrote: So I guess DXC Technology wrote GW a really good covering letter saying how much they love Space Marines, and got the contract based on that???
I worked for a company and legend was the only reason we were using a particular software(which was really outdated) was that our CEO played golf with the guy who owned the software company..
I'm a little late to this Cursed City fiasco, but here's a thought...
Being an intellectual property attorney with experience in trademark and copyright infringement litigation, it occurred to me that this behavior by GW, particularly the scrubbing of its websites of all Cursed City content, could mean that GW received a legitimate cease and desist letter. There is no good PR to address such a mess so late in a products release cycle. If the models are coming back later, then the issue is with the game setting (i.e. copyright infringement) or junior trademark (i.e. TM infringement).
callidusx3 wrote: I'm a little late to this Cursed City fiasco, but here's a thought...
Being an intellectual property attorney with experience in trademark and copyright infringement litigation, it occurred to me that this behavior by GW, particularly the scrubbing of its websites of all Cursed City content, could mean that GW received a legitimate cease and desist letter. There is no good PR to address such a mess so late in a products release cycle. If the models are coming back later, then the issue is with the game setting (i.e. copyright infringement) or junior trademark (i.e. TM infringement).
This is very unlikely, especially as the Cursed City website is still live.
I think the reason they have removed the product from the webstore and the links on the Warhammer Community pages is simply because people can't get the game. The WarCom articles are also still active though, you just can't link to them from the main page. And the YouTube videos are also still active.
If they had removed all online content I would agree it sounds plausible, but there still official GW content available online.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: This has suddenly become the most genuinely interesting thread on Dakka, despite not knowing what anyone is talking about.
Can’t say I’m really knowledgable on the topic, but wholeheartedly agree.
Obviously all I really want is to see more models and cool stuff, and ideally things not disappear from sale etc.
But in the mean time, interesting reads.
This is a big deal for any company and if you read the first article can be devastating if not implemented correctly.
Frankly, it hasn't gone swimmingly and now a 3rd party has been drafted in to help (now on GW payroll permanently).
This has affected absolutely every aspect of their business and is causing quite a few headaches.
Combine this with the move into the new distribution hub (delayed by COVID and the above), Brexit (GW is being hit hard because it's products are manufactured in multiple countries of origin), Nottinghamshire Council not playing ball relating to GW's need for extra electricity supply so it can ramp up manufacturing, COVID causing all sorts of delays/problems, and Ever Green and you have a perfect storm that is hitting GW really badly right now.
Given the so-called journalists couldn't be bothered to do the thing you're meant to do with acronyms - explain what they mean the first time you use them in a piece - in either fething article, can someone explain in plain English what ERP is meant to mean in this context?
ERP stands for Enterprise Resource Planning and refers to software and systems used to plan and manage all the core supply chain, manufacturing, services, financial and other processes of an organization
A better description in plainer english than I can give. I mostly worked with/on the back end of them so am only barely familiar with what they actually do from a user perspective
Thanks for that, Rihgu - always annoys me when people doing news assume that anyone reading an article automatically knows what the acronyms mean.
So looks like my FLGS manager managed to get out of GW's burning factory at the last minute with a pile of loot and probably didn't even turn to look at the explosion.
I just picked up my Cursed City and there was still a towering pile of them left.
This is a big deal for any company and if you read the first article can be devastating if not implemented correctly.
Frankly, it hasn't gone swimmingly and now a 3rd party has been drafted in to help (now on GW payroll permanently).
This has affected absolutely every aspect of their business and is causing quite a few headaches.
Combine this with the move into the new distribution hub (delayed by COVID and the above), Brexit (GW is being hit hard because it's products are manufactured in multiple countries of origin), Nottinghamshire Council not playing ball relating to GW's need for extra electricity supply so it can ramp up manufacturing, COVID causing all sorts of delays/problems, and Ever Green and you have a perfect storm that is hitting GW really badly right now.
Given the so-called journalists couldn't be bothered to do the thing you're meant to do with acronyms - explain what they mean the first time you use them in a piece - in either fething article, can someone explain in plain English what ERP is meant to mean in this context?
ERP stands for Enterprise Resource Planning and refers to software and systems used to plan and manage all the core supply chain, manufacturing, services, financial and other processes of an organization
A better description in plainer english than I can give. I mostly worked with/on the back end of them so am only barely familiar with what they actually do from a user perspective
Thanks for that, Rihgu - always annoys me when people doing news assume that anyone reading an article automatically knows what the acronyms mean.
People reading the Reg generally know what entry-level IT acronyms stand for, it isn't a general news site it's a fairly specialist tech industry news site
This is a big deal for any company and if you read the first article can be devastating if not implemented correctly.
Frankly, it hasn't gone swimmingly and now a 3rd party has been drafted in to help (now on GW payroll permanently).
This has affected absolutely every aspect of their business and is causing quite a few headaches.
Combine this with the move into the new distribution hub (delayed by COVID and the above), Brexit (GW is being hit hard because it's products are manufactured in multiple countries of origin), Nottinghamshire Council not playing ball relating to GW's need for extra electricity supply so it can ramp up manufacturing, COVID causing all sorts of delays/problems, and Ever Green and you have a perfect storm that is hitting GW really badly right now.
Given the so-called journalists couldn't be bothered to do the thing you're meant to do with acronyms - explain what they mean the first time you use them in a piece - in either fething article, can someone explain in plain English what ERP is meant to mean in this context?
ERP stands for Enterprise Resource Planning and refers to software and systems used to plan and manage all the core supply chain, manufacturing, services, financial and other processes of an organization
A better description in plainer english than I can give. I mostly worked with/on the back end of them so am only barely familiar with what they actually do from a user perspective
Thanks for that, Rihgu - always annoys me when people doing news assume that anyone reading an article automatically knows what the acronyms mean.
People reading the Reg generally know what entry-level IT acronyms stand for, it isn't a general news site it's a fairly specialist tech industry news site
And in fairness, ERP has been around for a very long time, and isn't a hugely niche defined term.
Yeah, I don't buy the "copyright issue" theory thats been making the rounds around the web for one bit. Nothing has been "scrubbed", most if not all the relevant content is still online, certain countries even still have it listed on the relevant online store, etc.
I don't know, I'm just a bit skeptical with Geedubs recently; especially with the burying/purging of the old tweets saying this was going to be a line item.
Another strange sight on Wayland is the english edition of BSF: Escalation, that is unavailable to order...
Both Escalation and Deadly Alliance has been long out of print and abscent from the Wayland site since last year...not sure if this is an error on the Wayland site or GW might be reprinting the BSF expansions, maybe squeezing copies where they can?
Rinkydink wrote: Anyone else think the spate of new shinies today is a smoke and mirrors ploy due to the cluster feth of this release?
It’s literally a continuation of articles that have been happening for weeks.
Plus it's probably to make up for a lack of releases for the forseeable future. Not saying that they weren't planning to do these articles, but the "thing" stalling releases probably helped
Rinkydink wrote: I don't know, I'm just a bit skeptical with Geedubs recently; especially with the burying/purging of the old tweets saying this was going to be a line item.
Wouldn't make sense to have inquiring customers find two contradictory statements, would it?
callidusx3 wrote: I'm a little late to this Cursed City fiasco, but here's a thought...
Being an intellectual property attorney with experience in trademark and copyright infringement litigation, it occurred to me that this behavior by GW, particularly the scrubbing of its websites of all Cursed City content, could mean that GW received a legitimate cease and desist letter. There is no good PR to address such a mess so late in a products release cycle. If the models are coming back later, then the issue is with the game setting (i.e. copyright infringement) or junior trademark (i.e. TM infringement).
This is very unlikely, especially as the Cursed City website is still live.
I think the reason they have removed the product from the webstore and the links on the Warhammer Community pages is simply because people can't get the game. The WarCom articles are also still active though, you just can't link to them from the main page. And the YouTube videos are also still active.
If they had removed all online content I would agree it sounds plausible, but there still official GW content available online.
Thanks, I didn't notice that. However, settlement agreements often give a party time to take down offending content (15-30 days is common). It has only been a week.
callidusx3 wrote: Thanks, I didn't notice that. However, settlement agreements often give a party time to take down offending content (15-30 days is common). It has only been a week.
Ah, finally a proper conspiracy theorist. You put my feeble attempts to shame, sir.
"A happened and that means B"
"A didn't actually happen"
"Sometimes it takes a while for A to happen, I still believe B despite the original basis for my belief being disproven"
And in fairness, ERP has been around for a very long time, and isn't a hugely niche defined term.
They also tend to vary from country to country, so it can be a lot more niche than someone expects (not to mention different industries and gov't agencies have their own word salad that doesn't necessarily overlap). It certainly isn't Erotic Role Play, which is what I expect when I see those letters.
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok, what is a mold broke?
Wasn't that just the standard GW/fan excuse in the 90s/00s when an item goes out of print? Someone dropped the mold and it broke?
callidusx3 wrote: I'm a little late to this Cursed City fiasco, but here's a thought...
Being an intellectual property attorney with experience in trademark and copyright infringement litigation, it occurred to me that this behavior by GW, particularly the scrubbing of its websites of all Cursed City content, could mean that GW received a legitimate cease and desist letter. There is no good PR to address such a mess so late in a products release cycle. If the models are coming back later, then the issue is with the game setting (i.e. copyright infringement) or junior trademark (i.e. TM infringement).
Seems unlikely. When that sort of things happen, it makes the rounds very fast. For example Zenimax (or Bethesda) had a writer that used an old D&D module for a questline in Elder Scrolls Online, and people just jumped on that in a matter of hours/days. The game industry is too small (and obsessive) to keep that kind of claim quiet. Someone, somewhere would have posted a 'Well, actually... character <blah> is from publication X, first seen in chapter 27 of ....' and various game/hobby/etc sites would have been screaming by now.
Stop trying to make copyright infringement happen, its not going to happen. Theres a long list of reasons to explain why the product line *might* have been axed, many of them which are more immediately relevant and more likely than GW being hit with a C&D.
I work in IT for a large global co, and if they are stealing DXC people...then this has truly gotten dire. really i have never seen one of these projects go well. but HP/DXC or in my case IBM handling our SAP migration, or all the outsourcing i deal with to TCS. none of it is smooth, none of it is efficient.
This really does seem to be a bit of a death by a thousand cuts. coupled with the numerous other factors over the last year.
GW has clearly been trying to push themselves to the mainstream and this was a mainstream product sent out to board game youtubers and the like. its was meant to reach a larger audiance...so something is up.
callidusx3 wrote: Thanks, I didn't notice that. However, settlement agreements often give a party time to take down offending content (15-30 days is common). It has only been a week.
Ah, finally a proper conspiracy theorist. You put my feeble attempts to shame, sir.
"A happened and that means B"
"A didn't actually happen"
"Sometimes it takes a while for A to happen, I still believe B despite the original basis for my belief being disproven"
and still, this is something that GW has never done before, no matter if something was sold out on release and not coming back for very long time, or just not being available any more
it is unusual even for GW and something is going on why they are doing it that goes deeper than any "did not made enough copies"
I mean this is GW, if the main problem would have been that they made too less for whatever reason it would have been sold as limited pre-order special Edition and the main product announced for "later"
H.B.M.C. wrote:Wait. Who did they send this to that they don't normally send things to?
I have seen 1 YT channels reviewing the game that usually don't have Boardgames at all (still refuses to talk about Mantic Deadzone although it comes as request from watches because for him it is a Boardgame and his channel is about wargames, yet he reviewed Cursed City and it was not very positive) but don't know if he just got his copy early on the regular way
callidusx3 wrote: Thanks, I didn't notice that. However, settlement agreements often give a party time to take down offending content (15-30 days is common). It has only been a week.
Ah, finally a proper conspiracy theorist. You put my feeble attempts to shame, sir.
"A happened and that means B"
"A didn't actually happen"
"Sometimes it takes a while for A to happen, I still believe B despite the original basis for my belief being disproven"
I haven't been labeled a conspiracy theorist before... how novel.
I couched my statement as a possible occurrence. I was not claiming to have any facts or definitive understanding of the situation, nor is it my belief. This is wild speculation, much like what everyone else is bandying about, but perhaps from a perspective many would not consider. And sure, it is unlikely to be correct given all of the logistical issues at play. But those logistical issues do not explain why a company would abandon a trademark it has spent months advertising.
As for your simplification of our conversation to make me sound like an obtuse twit, it mischaracterizes my position. I presented facts about how settlement terms often function. Based on this, your factual clarification (though welcome) did not in fact disprove my original speculative theory.
Seems unlikely. When that sort of things happen, it makes the rounds very fast. For example Zenimax (or Bethesda) had a writer that used an old D&D module for a questline in Elder Scrolls Online, and people just jumped on that in a matter of hours/days. The game industry is too small (and obsessive) to keep that kind of claim quiet. Someone, somewhere would have posted a 'Well, actually... character <blah> is from publication X, first seen in chapter 27 of ....' and various game/hobby/etc sites would have been screaming by now.
Good point Voss. The gaming community/market is relatively small. As I said above, mine is wild speculation.
I did loosely speculate about the possibility of some kind of IP being behind it, so I hope that bit of spit balling didn’t grow legs.
After all, we’d know. Even if it was just a baseless rumour, SpikeyBitz would be clickbaiting it as fact by now. If even they haven’t, I think we can call it as not being true.
So we’re left with bafflement that a well promoted, well received* and in demand item has ceased production. Seemingly against GW’s original intent (see Kirioth’s video here for evidence) as well.
The why and wherefore of this bizarre decision is all just speculation, based on the (not exactly unsafe) impression that something is going on.
But whatever it is, how GW has handled it has left a bad taste in the mouth of many, including myself, and I’ve got my copy.
Part of my umbrage is that I was assuring people they’d said it was a stock item (and they did, again Kirioth’s video is evidence to that), and now I look like I was just making it up. I wouldn’t say I’ve been made to look a fool - but they’ve certainly gone back on and taken pains to actively cover up they said this was a BSF style stock item.
Why aren’t they telling us what the problem is? Who knows. It seems given Indomitus and their “chill guys, it’ll take time but we’ll make as many as you want” response, which came on swift wings, they’re squandering a lot of good will they’d worked hard to build up over the past few years.
Pure speculation here (just for a change), but I wonder if it's turned out not to be profitable enough with new post-Brexit tariffs and paperwork. I believe there are now some fairly complex rules and can be some fairly high tariffs for shipping into Europe when you've got stuff coming in from outside the EU, which get even more complicated when you have a mix of things produced in different countries (I believe the cardstock is made in China but I think the miniatures are manufactured in the UK).
Presumably Cursed City would have been designed and manufactured long before the trade deal was agreed so that wouldn't have been known about. Could be that now that has all been taken into account they've decided it's just not worth it to produce any more and that if they increased the price to whatever level was required to make it profitable enough it would reduce sales too far (it's not exactly cheap as it is).
I can see why they might not want to admit that as a reason though!
Well, that is a possibility. And for everyone about to say “they should’ve prepared”, nobody knew what Brexit was going to look like until a last minute deal was hashed out, which managed to disappoint everyone. So there was little to plan around thanks to the Government’s abject bungling.
But.
The only reason card stock was printed in China (and some magazine stuff in Poland if memory serves) was that it was cheaper than getting it done in the U.K.
Yet GW own the files, so the most work that would be needed is rejig going/reformatting them into a format usable by a U.K. printer. Sure that industry isn’t what it was, but it still exists. So there’s little stopping GW getting it printed here.
They also have a factory in the USA (Memphis, I think?). Now I don’t know what it’s capacity is, but if push came to shove, make another set of molds, punt them over to the USA, and have international stock made there, where the government wasn’t stupid enough to drop trou, poop on international trade agreements and then wonder why there are now tariffs.
The only reason card stock was printed in China (and some magazine stuff in Poland if memory serves) was that it was cheaper than getting it done in the U.K.
Yet GW own the files, so the most work that would be needed is rejig going/reformatting them into a format usable by a U.K. printer. Sure that industry isn’t what it was, but it still exists. So there’s little stopping GW getting it printed here.
They also have a factory in the USA (Memphis, I think?). Now I don’t know what it’s capacity is, but if push came to shove, make another set of molds, punt them over to the USA, and have international stock made there, where the government wasn’t stupid enough to drop trou, poop on international trade agreements and then wonder why there are now tariffs.
Yes, those options sound possible, but obviously they also increase the cost, as you say, the reason GW get stuff made in China is that it is cheaper than getting it done in the UK, so moving production might also increase the cost to a point that it's not worth manufacturing. Though obviously if tariffs etc. are the problem with Cursed City then that could potentially affect anything that has a similar mix of items, so GW will obviously need to do something to deal with that in the future.
Also, I believe shipping costs have increased massively as well recently, so that might be another factor impacting the profitability if they were to order a second run (though again, that would be mitigated by moving production to the UK).
There’s a difference between it being cheaper to print and import from China (or indeed anywhere for sake of argument), and it not being economically viable at all to print in the U.K.
I suspect the biggest hurdle is whether or not there are printers in the U.K. who can print on the card stock GW needs, in the quantities GW needs.
Broadly speaking, that’s an odd combo. We might think that being the biggest manufacturer in their niche, GW would need high levels of product. But, for print? Well, small run stuff remains well covered, as that’s rarely economically viable for overseas printing. And that’s what the remaining print shops I’m aware of tend to specialise in.
But for high quality, short to middling run? I don’t know. There may very well be printers capable in the U.K., but whether or not the job is worth their while is anyone’s guess.
Which is why I advocate GW sorting out their own in-house printers. Greater control over quality, timing and quantity. And hey, it’s even a facility they could potentially use for other U.K. based companies.
Yes. My employer makes consumer goods, and the volume of highly-specialized printed cardstock we need is massive. GW's volume will be a small fraction of that, and I'm sure it would be possible for them to organize supply from within UK/EU which should not cause major problems in relation to tariffs. Maybe at higher costs than from China, but the incremental additional costs per unit should not be prohibitive, especially when compared to the final product's price.
But if they have relied on their established Chinese printers up to now, it might take a while to find and contract other suppliers. I suspect they closely monitor the quality of supplied components, and if they are anything like us, there will be all sorts of audits and every component (including that component's supplier) might need to be analysed and qualified.
Try organizing a factory visit for your auditors at the moment, probably in a different country. It might actually be easier to buy the equipment and do it in-house. But then you still need to find suppliers and hire new staff.
That article is just discussing the same tweet we have already been discussing.
I don't think it's conclusive at all.
I didn't see the image about figures being made separately in this thread before, sorry :(
Well, it was new to me too. But I don't know what to make of this, the wording of the supposed GW quote looks a little off. The first two paragraphs are very similar to what we've already seen, so that will be based on their internal primer.
But the third paragraph? 'Miniatures may become available'? 'We know that there is a new Gravelords army coming soon'? Supposedly coming from the manufacturer itself as an official statement? Maybe they just put the quotation marks wrong.
I guess cursed city may be more at risk from tariffs based on where it's counted as being manufactured simply because of the nature and amount of cardboard/paper stuff in it
a boxed game certainly has more paper/card stuff in it than a starter or campaign box
and how these things are counted seems to be arbitrary and odd so I could see multiple individual card tiles being something that could have a much bigger impact rather than an equivalent amount of paper put together as a rulebook for example meaning piety and pain (for example) might be counted as 'made' in the UK, but cursed city might not be able to say the same
But the third paragraph? 'Miniatures may become available'? 'We know that there is a new Gravelords army coming soon'? Supposedly coming from the manufacturer itself as an official statement? Maybe they just put the quotation marks wrong.
I'd read that as "some will, some won't." The spider-grots from Silver Tower, for instance, or the little familiars - I don't think they ever got a separate release, did they? If they say "will", you're going to get someone bitching that ACKSHULLY Random Scenic Rat D hasn't come out.
But the third paragraph? 'Miniatures may become available'? 'We know that there is a new Gravelords army coming soon'? Supposedly coming from the manufacturer itself as an official statement? Maybe they just put the quotation marks wrong.
I'd read that as "some will, some won't." The spider-grots from Silver Tower, for instance, or the little familiars - I don't think they ever got a separate release, did they? If they say "will", you're going to get someone bitching that ACKSHULLY Random Scenic Rat D hasn't come out.
But that wouldn’t be the miniatures from the set then, would it? Assuming you cannot split up the sprue, of course.
If you mean that there 'may‘ be a separate release of some Deathrattle (TM) skeletons, some Deadwalker (TM) zombies and some Creepyvermin (TM) rats and bats, I don‘t think that that‘s what they wanted to say because two of those three have already been announced as definitive releases.
Yes the fact they can now make to order with pre payments is a manufacturers dream. Its guarantied full price sales. I would suspect production issues or personality clashes on the human side (ala man O War).
But that wouldn’t be the miniatures from the set then, would it? Assuming you cannot split up the sprue, of course.
If you mean that there 'may‘ be a separate release of some Deathrattle (TM) skeletons, some Deadwalker (TM) zombies and some Creepyvermin (TM) rats and bats, I don‘t think that that‘s what they wanted to say because two of those three have already been announced as definitive releases.
I think all the Silver tower heroes and Big Baddies (Gaunt Summoner, Ogroid) came out as separate releases, but then I think they were either separate sprues or easily separated. The Tzeentch Acolytes and Tzaangors though, the exact models didn't in the later release.
That's what I feel they mean here by 'may'. Some probably will, at some point, IF, IF they are part of the schedule anyway. Others won't and, in all probability, never were. But if they say that the models WILL come out, they're leaving themselves as hostages to fortune, both with whatever production problems are going on behind the curtain and also to the expectations of the fanbase.
That article is just discussing the same tweet we have already been discussing.
I don't think it's conclusive at all.
I didn't see the image about figures being made separately in this thread before, sorry :(
Well, it was new to me too. But I don't know what to make of this, the wording of the supposed GW quote looks a little off. The first two paragraphs are very similar to what we've already seen, so that will be based on their internal primer.
But the third paragraph? 'Miniatures may become available'? 'We know that there is a new Gravelords army coming soon'? Supposedly coming from the manufacturer itself as an official statement? Maybe they just put the quotation marks wrong.
Never mind, the text is genuine. I just received an email from customer service in relation to my order cancellation, because I asked if they knew what's going on. It reads:
GW Service wrote:Cursed City is sold-out on games-workshop.com and we are not expecting it to return online.
Many copies have been sent to local stores across the world. Please check with your local Warhammer store or independent retailer to see if they can help.
Miniatures from the set may become available in different formats in the future, and we know that there is a full army of Soulblight Gravelords miniatures on their way very soon.
Please let me know if there is anything else at all I can help you with.
Probably written by someone in the service team themselves because there are too many enquiries.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually the copy/paste text is quite funny, given that they are sending me a copy.
Yet GW own the files, so the most work that would be needed is rejig going/reformatting them into a format usable by a U.K. printer. Sure that industry isn’t what it was, but it still exists. So there’s little stopping GW getting it printed here.
They also have a factory in the USA (Memphis, I think?). Now I don’t know what it’s capacity is, but if push came to shove, make another set of molds, punt them over to the USA, and have international stock made there, where the government wasn’t stupid enough to drop trou, poop on international trade agreements and then wonder why there are now tariffs.
The cost of printing it in the UK could be fairly substantial and render the product unviable. If the UK is anything like the US, then most of the surviving printing industry survived because it settled into various niches that justify higher price points (often involving quick turnaround work or printing materials that can't be printed overseas due to regulatory/trade compliance concerns, etc.), etc. It might also be possible that certain items can't really be printed in the UK at all (haven't opened up my copy of Cursed City yet, but if theres die-cut cardboard pieces beyond a certain size its entirely possible that none of the remaining UK printers have equipment capable of cutting pieces of that size, etc.).
As for the US, the Memphis factory was shuttered years ago, just a warehouse/distribution center now. As I understand it there were many issues with the US factory, lots of issues finding and developing skilled labor local to the area and difficulty attracting talent from other parts of the US. IIRC they tried to get toolmakers and manufacturing personnel to relocate from the UK but almost nobody bit at the opportunity. As a result they had quality issues and a much higher than anticipated turnover rate in personnel, etc. and it worked out to being more expensive to produce in the US than it would have been to just expand their operations in Nottingham.
That article is just discussing the same tweet we have already been discussing.
I don't think it's conclusive at all.
I didn't see the image about figures being made separately in this thread before, sorry :(
Doesn't say that they will be, it says that they *may* become available in the future. We already had a good idea (actually I believe it was confirmed, but not 100%) that at least some of these minis would be released as part of the Soulblight Gravelords book (doesn't make sense to release a brand new unit of zombies and skeleton warriors right before an army that relies on zombies and skeleton warriors is released, and not make the zombies and skeleton warriors available for said armies use).
Based on past experience however, its unlikely that all of the contents of the box become available independently.
I had heard about the models getting a separate release from a Warhammer store manager who got it from his manager. This other manager didn’t say what models or when they would be available. My guess is for the bad guy sprues are going to be part of the gravelords and the good guys retinue for the father and daughter witch hunters when they get their broken realm book. He went on to add the other manager wasn’t happy about the decision to not support the game, but is glad everyone keeps complaining about the lack of availability, because it gives him ammo to push for a reprint.
As for the US, the Memphis factory was shuttered years ago, just a warehouse/distribution center now. As I understand it there were many issues with the US factory, lots of issues finding and developing skilled labor local to the area and difficulty attracting talent from other parts of the US. IIRC they tried to get toolmakers and manufacturing personnel to relocate from the UK but almost nobody bit at the opportunity. As a result they had quality issues and a much higher than anticipated turnover rate in personnel, etc. and it worked out to being more expensive to produce in the US than it would have been to just expand their operations in Nottingham.
I thought there was also a bit of a power play from Games Workshop trying to get Nottingham to increase the power utilities for the factory, but when a set of molds were damaged in shipment to Memphis it killed the idea of a US factory.
This has me mostly worried about the special stand-alone intro board games they sell through Barnes & Noble, if the problem is the card stock & printing. I picked up Blitz Bowl 2 a while back, but the new games they announced a few months ago like the intro-Warcry & intro-Killteam still haven't released
Smaug wrote: I thought there was also a bit of a power play from Games Workshop trying to get Nottingham to increase the power utilities for the factory
IIRC the local tram line took up the capacity GW thought they had allocated to them, so needed to wait for more infrastructure to be built.
I thought there was also a bit of a power play from Games Workshop trying to get Nottingham to increase the power utilities for the factory, but when a set of molds were damaged in shipment to Memphis it killed the idea of a US factory.
I heard something similar, not so much about the factory utilities but about equipment damaged in transit. IIRC I think it might have actually be an injection molding machine rather than a mold itself - if I remember correctly there was something about the machines needing to be modified or calibrated or something in Nottingham in order to get it to do whatever GW needed so that it would work with their production processes/methodologies, etc. For whatever reason they didn't have the capability of doing that on the US side of the atlantic so it needed to be done in the UK and shipped overseas afterwards, and something went wrong in transit and it needed to be sent back to the UK to be repaired, etc. It could well have been a mold instead, but I'm not positive.
Kalamadea wrote: This has me mostly worried about the special stand-alone intro board games they sell through Barnes & Noble, if the problem is the card stock & printing. I picked up Blitz Bowl 2 a while back, but the new games they announced a few months ago like the intro-Warcry & intro-Killteam still haven't released
Things are running well behind schedule in general. You could buy the new Blood Bowl boxed game last year, but the Spike! Magazine that usually releases at the same time just came out that covers the two teams in the new box. Most generally, it’s a release item alongside with the game or when a new team comes out. Expect delays, and possible changes of plans.
The story I heard was a set of molds were shipped face down and somewhat loosely strapped down to a pallet. This was before GW was cut their own molds. I can’t imagine trying to ship a injection molding setup and hoping it will stay calibrated, but then again I think GW had one at a UK games day where they were handing out figures literally hot off the press. The only thing I can think of that would need to be changed over would be the power control module so the UK 230V 50Hz can run on the US120V 400Hz.
When Ash goes to make a video about it, you know people are going crazy
He's just giving his honest opinion about it. Because of course people would attack him for the crime of doing enthousiastic reviews of the game.
Quotes of Truth :
"Nobody owes you something just because you wanted it."
"Just because they're british and organized doesn't make them an evil empire."
Smaug wrote: The story I heard was a set of molds were shipped face down and somewhat loosely strapped down to a pallet. This was before GW was cut their own molds. I can’t imagine trying to ship a injection molding setup and hoping it will stay calibrated, but then again I think GW had one at a UK games day where they were handing out figures literally hot off the press. The only thing I can think of that would need to be changed over would be the power control module so the UK 230V 50Hz can run on the US120V 400Hz.
Woah woah woah, 400hz power isn't the US standard by any means, I assume you mean 40hz (I actually work in a facility that uses 400hz power, biggest pain in the ass ever).
I don't think what you heard would be entirely accurate - GW moved away from using Renedra to cut its tooling in the mid/late 2000s (around 2007 to 2008 timeframe I believe). Production in Memphis ended around 2011-2012 from what I've been able to gather. Mind, it could have been a lengthy drawdown I guess, but it seems there would have been a bit of a gap there. Then again, I don't doubt the possibility that they were shipping molds from the UK, from what I understanding the Memphis facility was somewhat under-staffed/under-equipped and never achieved the capability that it was intended to have - it was meant to be a full duplicate of the Nottingham facility so that they could switch production to the US in the event of a disaster, etc. (would be real handy now with the whole Brexit thing ), but I think it was mostly used for metal/finecast production and only had limited capacity for plastics. iirc the machines were generally older than the ones used in Nottingham and they had fewer machines as well and only had plastic molds for the x most popular/top selling kits in the range at the time (whereas their metal/finecast capabilities from what I understand actually put Nottingham to shame, in that they had molds that HQ did not have).
Sarouan wrote: When Ash goes to make a video about it, you know people are going crazy
He's just giving his honest opinion about it. Because of course people would attack him for the crime of doing enthousiastic reviews of the game.
Quotes of Truth :
"Nobody owes you something just because you wanted it."
"Just because they're british and organized doesn't make them an evil empire."
I love that guy.
It's not that GW owes us something, it's just that they lied, deleted evidence pointing to their lies, acted like said evidence never existed, refused to talk to us and then tried to pass all the info regarding Cursed City to their retailers without giving any to the actual consumers.
It's not that GW owes us something, it's just that they lied, deleted evidence pointing to their lies, acted like said evidence never existed, refused to talk to us and then tried to pass all the info regarding Cursed City to their retailers without giving any to the actual consumers.
It's not that GW owes us something, it's just that they lied, deleted evidence pointing to their lies, acted like said evidence never existed, refused to talk to us and then tried to pass all the info regarding Cursed City to their retailers without giving any to the actual consumers.
You didn't watch this video, did you.
Those two quotes you posted are all i needed not to watch it. And from what i've seen it, before turning off in disgust, the guy sounds like an absolute bootlicker.
So the official line from GW has changed to say Cursed City is out and will not be restocked? And they were definitely saying it would be an ongoing availability like Blackstone Fortress before (or is my memory failing me?) so something must have happened. Disrupted shipping and the like wouldn't cancel all future printings of the product.
NinthMusketeer wrote: So the official line from GW has changed to say Cursed City is out and will not be restocked? And they were definitely saying it would be an ongoing availability like Blackstone Fortress before (or is my memory failing me?) so something must have happened. Disrupted shipping and the like wouldn't cancel all future printings of the product.
Yep, it changed from being a new "permanent game with expansions coming later" to "one time release without any further support"
Don't get why GW don't have their own in house card printing. It's not like they can't afford to do it themselves. I mean pretty much every game they make requires card components that instantly sell out cos there's nevwr enough of them while if they had in house printing it wouldn't be an issue. They know people want them so give it to them
NinthMusketeer wrote: So the official line from GW has changed to say Cursed City is out and will not be restocked? And they were definitely saying it would be an ongoing availability like Blackstone Fortress before (or is my memory failing me?) so something must have happened. Disrupted shipping and the like wouldn't cancel all future printings of the product.
To resume good old Ash's final opinion on this topic : "Yes, I think it will come back if they manage to make it worth it for their business costwise and logistically speaking. No, it won't if they don't manage to do that. If they don't manage, it will be a tough decision, even meaning cancelling planned expansions - which I don't know if they are, I'm not in their secret, I'm just a fan who happened to receive a free copy for review - but in the end, they own the brand, they'll do anything with it and they will do what every business do in the world : make the decisions according to what is best for them to stay on the scene and keep making money."
After the anger and thinking rational...yeah, makes sense. If a pandemic is around for a long time and feth completely the costs, product release calendar and logistic, maybe it will be bad enough for GW to make a tough decision. Even if Cursed City was sold out fast online...it's still a Specialist Game product in the end. And we all know what is their fate on long term...see where's Black Fortress at the moment. Nowhere seen on their webstore, right ? That's where.
Seems strange to me, surely they could just come out and state 'hey we can't do this right now because pandemic, but we will get to further print runs in 2022.' If profit margin is the problem they can increase the price. Certainly there is demand.
Motograter wrote: Don't get why GW don't have their own in house card printing. It's not like they can't afford to do it themselves. I mean pretty much every game they make requires card components that instantly sell out cos there's nevwr enough of them while if they had in house printing it wouldn't be an issue. They know people want them so give it to them
Like Ash said in his video, it's just a matter of other people doing it cheaper for you because they already have everything. At the time Cursed City was thought, it was certainly the best solution costwise to produce the cardboard part elsewhere. Now with the pandemic, it sure sounds very different, but who could plan for that at that time the decisions were made ? This game was definitely not made just a few weeks ago, that's not how a game is made.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Seems strange to me, surely they could just come out and state 'hey we can't do this right now because pandemic, but we will get to further print runs in 2022.' If profit margin is the problem they can increase the price. Certainly there is demand.
I think that picture gets a little more complex, because GW can't know for sure that they can make that happen and making that promise and going back on it would be even worse.
Question is : is this demand enough for the cost of making that many boxes again ?
And another important question as well : will it still be that popular when the boxes for Soulblight Gravelords will be released later ?
Given the time needed to launch another production with the needed separate parts, we don't know how far we are from the new undead battletome we know is coming. And we know the new skeletons and zombies have a similar design to what is in the Cursed City box.
This is not just a question with one easy parameter. There are a lot of unknown variants. Pandemic is still around, Brexit as well. And businesses hate unknown variants.
GW made not enough boxes in the first run and now rather chancel it instead of doing another print run
the big question is still "why" because there was no explaination (also not in the video) why they had to do it that way, for that 1 game
"too expensive to make more" is no reason why there were not enough in the first place or why there is no "cast on demand" but removing everything after the release
(not like they could have said this a week ago if the reason were the one stated)
Motograter wrote: Don't get why GW don't have their own in house card printing. It's not like they can't afford to do it themselves. I mean pretty much every game they make requires card components that instantly sell out cos there's nevwr enough of them while if they had in house printing it wouldn't be an issue. They know people want them so give it to them
Like Ash said in his video, it's just a matter of other people doing it cheaper for you because they already have everything. At the time Cursed City was thought, it was certainly the best solution costwise to produce the cardboard part elsewhere. Now with the pandemic, it sure sounds very different, but who could plan for that at that time the decisions were made ? This game was definitely not made just a few weeks ago, that's not how a game is made.
only if you look at CC in a vaccum, it is not about only this game
GW has a lot of cards, boards, boxes printed, and they knew for years that this is a problem with necessary cards for their games are a one time thing and never return
but now it is a problem for 1 boxed game so they need to chancel everything
for the very same reason they would need to remove Blackstone Fortress as well any other box with a lot of cardboard
and one thing GW knows for sure, doing things externally is never cheaper than doing it on your own, the questions is always just how many years it takes until you make the initial investment back
still no reason to chancel 1 new product out of many and removing it from the store instead of any of the others that are marked as "out of stock"
When you say there were not enough made how many is that, exactly?
There is absolutely no info on how many they made. Nor is there an easy path to predict the appropriate demand during a pandemic where people are getting $1,400 checks and video cards have tripled in price.
But let's presume they make another run. How many is appropriate for that? What is the demand? Are the people complaining on the internet interested or just complaining? How many boxes will languish in stores, because people opted to not go look for them? People are making a killing on this panic, because they're going to those shops and buying out the stock and reselling them on eBay for almost twice the price.
kodos wrote: only if you look at CC in a vaccum, it is not about only this game
GW has a lot of cards, boards, boxes printed, and they knew for years that this is a problem with necessary cards for their games are a one time thing and never return
but now it is a problem for 1 boxed game so they need to chancel everything
for the very same reason they would need to remove Blackstone Fortress as well any other box with a lot of cardboard
and one thing GW knows for sure, doing things externally is never cheaper than doing it on your own, the questions is always just how many years it takes until you make the initial investment back
still no reason to chancel 1 new product out of many and removing it from the store instead of any of the others that are marked as "out of stock"
Yeah, but again, at the time Cursed City was thought and planned, I'm pretty sure there was no sign of a global pandemic ready to burst out. Same for other GW products using cards so far. Simply put, the decisions made at that time took what was cheapest and easier to do for them.
Thing is, only GW knows the process they decided to at that time. And sure, with pandemic plans change, but the time needed to shift them means it's not something that will be solved by snapping your fingers right now...
Even Mantic Games is in this bad situation. And you know Mantic Games can't make everything by themselves. Frankly speaking, even GW can't. There is no fully self sufficient business in the whole world, they're all interdependent for something.
Like Ash said, yep this situation sucks, but it's no conspiracy - it's just a set of bad circumstances happening. Unfortunate, but it affects everyone.
C'mon guys we heard like 2 pages ago that their whole workflow software went belly up to the point they've had to cancel new releases for the forseeable future, can we drop the evil empire/Chapterhouse/microchips in the glue applicator angles.
Like Ash said, yep this situation sucks, but it's no conspiracy - it's just a set of circumstances. Unfortunate, but it affects everyone.
yeah, but this is no explanation for what for what has happend here
if cardstock is the big issue, because it was done externally and cannot be done again for now because of the pandemic, why are all the other products with external done printed paper still on the website
all this would be valid if GW would have either marked that box as currently anavailable or removed everything else as well
if not getting enough plastic raw material, the very same thing, why was CC removed as well as all the hints saying it will stay, while other stuff is still ther but just marked as "sold out"
if this are Brexit/China problems, why just that game?
all those arguments work very well if you only look at that game, but very unlikley that it did not affect any other product in the same that GW saw the need to remove every sign of it from the shop
if this are Brexit/China problems, why just that game?
Because the initial stock was sold out online in less that one hour ? Because it's a Specialist Game and thus the numbers initially planed and made weren't as high as, said, something planned for one of their true core games like AoS and 40k ? Because on the opposite of AoS and 40k, this game needs some specialized components GW can't produce alone and the deals they made at the time they came with this project aren't the same anymore now ?
Again, bad circumstances happening at the worst time...
lord_blackfang wrote: C'mon guys we heard like 2 pages ago that their whole workflow software went belly up to the point they've had to cancel new releases for the forseeable future, can we drop the evil empire/Chapterhouse/microchips in the glue applicator angles.
That is still no explenation of them being so secretfull about it and refusing to tell that everyone.
That is still no explenation of them being so secretfull about it and refusing to tell that everyone.
Another point from the video: GW is a publicly traded company, they are likely more concerned about potential losses and shareholder blowback by publicly disclosing the problems just to appease some online fanboys that will buy the product anyways. It makes more sense for the company to remain silent than potentially upset the market.
Also, he brings up that it's just general standard marketing to delete old tweets and announcements that have conflicting info about a product, not just GW but in general. You don't want customers stumbling across old info that contradicts and getting confused. It's not evil empire conspiracy stuff, just general marketing practice
lord_blackfang wrote: C'mon guys we heard like 2 pages ago that their whole workflow software went belly up to the point they've had to cancel new releases for the forseeable future, can we drop the evil empire/Chapterhouse/microchips in the glue applicator angles.
That is still no explenation of them being so secretfull about it and refusing to tell that everyone.
Even if someone came with explanations, you don't want to hear it. Hell even watch a video coming with one. Just because it doesn't fit your narrative and you feel better thinking they're bootlickers.
if this are Brexit/China problems, why just that game?
Because the initial stock was sold out online in less that one hour ? Because it's a Specialist Game and thus the numbers initially planed and made weren't as high as, said, something planned for one of their true core games like AoS and 40k ? Because on the opposite of AoS and 40k, this game needs some specialized components GW can't produce alone and the deals they made at the time they came with this project aren't the same anymore now ?
Again, bad circumstances happening at the worst time...
so answer my question, why is Balckstone Fortress still on the website but Cursed City is not
what was the reason that all of your above arguments made GW to remove that one game on the website but leave the other one in?
why are the above arguments a reason that CC will never come back but Blackstone Fortress will?
and if CC comes back, why was it remove form the webstore?
lord_blackfang wrote: C'mon guys we heard like 2 pages ago that their whole workflow software went belly up to the point they've had to cancel new releases for the forseeable future, can we drop the evil empire/Chapterhouse/microchips in the glue applicator angles.
That is still no explenation of them being so secretfull about it and refusing to tell that everyone.
Even if someone came with explanations, you don't want to hear it. Hell even watch a video coming with one. Just because it doesn't fit your narrative and you feel better thinking they're bootlickers.
Keep wearing your tinfoil hat, then.
I don't want some random to come out instead of GW and offer excuses. I want GW, themselves, to directly tell everyone exactly what drove them to stopping production and not telling anyone they're stopping productions and deleting all previous info about wheather or not Cursed City is a mainstay. Y'know, have some basic decency?
so answer my question, why is Balckstone Fortress still on the website but Cursed City is not
Dunno for you, but I can assure there is no french version of Blackstone Fortress anymore on my country-friendly GW webstore. And definitely no more expansion at all.
So maybe you have luck and still have stock in your country ?
I don't want some random to come out instead of GW and offer excuses. I want GW, themselves, to directly tell everyone exactly what drove them to stopping production and not telling anyone they're stopping productions and deleting all previous info about wheather or not Cursed City is a mainstay. Y'know, have some basic decency?
You can be angry about it all you want. And you may even be right to feel angry at the situation...but still, it's not because you want it that you will obtain it. Certainly not like this.
If you do that request to GW's customer service, I'm pretty sure they will do their best to give you a personnalized apology for that.
I guess another big question is how the Indomnitus made to order went,
how many boxes were ordered,
how many were ordered then the individual/store decided they didn't want them after all but before production happened
how many were ordered, producted and then rejected by the individual (using handy distance selling regs)
it may be the whole thing was enough of a pain that even though it looks like they could sell a bunch more, that it isn't anthing like as clear cut when you look at the numbers from a similarish recent item
Daedalus81 wrote: When you say there were not enough made how many is that, exactly?
There is absolutely no info on how many they made. Nor is there an easy path to predict the appropriate demand during a pandemic where people are getting $1,400 checks and video cards have tripled in price.
But let's presume they make another run. How many is appropriate for that? What is the demand? Are the people complaining on the internet interested or just complaining? How many boxes will languish in stores, because people opted to not go look for them? People are making a killing on this panic, because they're going to those shops and buying out the stock and reselling them on eBay for almost twice the price.
If they wanted to establish a rough idea of current demand, they could easily run a Made to Order for it, though probably in H2 to give some of the palaver time to die down.
A M2O isn't going to pick everyone up who might want a copy, but you set some benchmarks and see if there's enough demand for it to then consider a, doing expansions; b, returning it as a BSF line item; or c, both.
So maybe you have luck and still have stock in your country ?
I don't talk about stock, but that the game can still be found in the store, anything you mentioned as "explaination" does not solve the question why Cursed City was removed from the store
not simply being out of stock, but not being there at all
only explaination is that GW will never bring it back (like your French version of Blackstone Fortress), and again, none of the problems you mentioned explains why it is impossible for GW to bring it back when there is the possibility to bring back (the english version) Blackstone Fortress (as if cardboard is too expensive and hard to get, they would have removed that one too)
I don't want some random to come out instead of GW and offer excuses. I want GW, themselves, to directly tell everyone exactly what drove them to stopping production and not telling anyone they're stopping productions and deleting all previous info about wheather or not Cursed City is a mainstay. Y'know, have some basic decency?
Can you find an example of a corporation doing that?
GW also hyped the hell out of this. While it's an AoS setting game, it shares a very VERY Old World vibe for most of the monsters and heroes. Silver Tower had very little hype, and the theme of Silver Tower didn't have nearly the universal appeal as Cursed City. Blackstone Fortress also lacks the same general appeal as a general fantasy Warhammer Quest game: BSF was was popular, but not crazy popular, which is likely why you can still buy it: extra copies are still in the warehouse ready to be sold.
If GW had ordered and planned the release numbers for Cursed City by using Silver Tower and Blackstone Fortress numbers then they likely SEVERELY underproduced.
I would not be at all surprised if GW thought they made enough to last a couple years and instead couldn't even fill preorders when it went up, then realized they'd never be able to reprint/make2order at any sort of reasonable cost with the state of Covid/Brexit/ERP issues
There's no bigger conspiracy here, it wildly outsold what GW expected and it doesn't make economic sense to reproduce it any time soon. It also doesn't warrant an explanation that may drop company stock prices, radio silence is better than publicly admitting a problem. Between Covid/Brexit/ERP I don't even think we need an official explanation, especially since we're unlikely to get one direct from GW.
If GW can't profit from Cursed City due to Brexit and Covid that also means any other card-stock heavy game is at risk. It means any other Warhammer Quest or side game or anything with card stock and overseas produce (endless spells and terrain) would all start to be hit hard and very fast the same way Cursed City is.
Overread wrote: If GW can't profit from Cursed City due to Brexit and Covid that also means any other card-stock heavy game is at risk. It means any other Warhammer Quest or side game or anything with card stock and overseas produce (endless spells and terrain) would all start to be hit hard and very fast the same way Cursed City is.
That's my biggest worry. I said it a page back, if Brexit/Covid/ERP issues make a Cursed City reprint non-viable, that also certainly affects printing new games. Cursed City would have been nice to have, I'll still get it if I can but I also won't lose sleep over missing it, but I have REALLY been looking forward to some of the Barnes & Noble special boardgames announced
Smaug wrote: The story I heard was a set of molds were shipped face down and somewhat loosely strapped down to a pallet. This was before GW was cut their own molds. I can’t imagine trying to ship a injection molding setup and hoping it will stay calibrated, but then again I think GW had one at a UK games day where they were handing out figures literally hot off the press. The only thing I can think of that would need to be changed over would be the power control module so the UK 230V 50Hz can run on the US120V 400Hz.
Woah woah woah, 400hz power isn't the US standard by any means, I assume you mean 40hz (I actually work in a facility that uses 400hz power, biggest pain in the ass ever).
I don't think what you heard would be entirely accurate - GW moved away from using Renedra to cut its tooling in the mid/late 2000s (around 2007 to 2008 timeframe I believe). Production in Memphis ended around 2011-2012 from what I've been able to gather. Mind, it could have been a lengthy drawdown I guess, but it seems there would have been a bit of a gap there. Then again, I don't doubt the possibility that they were shipping molds from the UK, from what I understanding the Memphis facility was somewhat under-staffed/under-equipped and never achieved the capability that it was intended to have - it was meant to be a full duplicate of the Nottingham facility so that they could switch production to the US in the event of a disaster, etc. (would be real handy now with the whole Brexit thing ), but I think it was mostly used for metal/finecast production and only had limited capacity for plastics. iirc the machines were generally older than the ones used in Nottingham and they had fewer machines as well and only had plastic molds for the x most popular/top selling kits in the range at the time (whereas their metal/finecast capabilities from what I understand actually put Nottingham to shame, in that they had molds that HQ did not have).
Sorry I screwed up on the cycles it should have been 60Hz. The equipment I work on in 400Hz.
To my knowledge GW never produced any figures in Memphis. I thought the early 2000’s or late 1990’s was when they where trying to set it up. When did they change over from metal to fine cast, early 2010’s?
Just glancing over as I scrolled by thought it said "microchips in the alligator" which was much more interesting.
I imagine this means the price for the individual characters/bits on ebay and the like are going to be quite something. I was only interested in a few characters for CoS army but I have a feeling the price is going to sting at this point.
how many boxes were ordered,
how many were ordered then the individual/store decided they didn't want them after all but before production happened
how many were ordered, producted and then rejected by the individual (using handy distance selling regs)
it may be the whole thing was enough of a pain that even though it looks like they could sell a bunch more, that it isn't anthing like as clear cut when you look at the numbers from a similarish recent item
I had extreme levels of buyer's remorse for Indomitus. We had a second round of orders at our FLGS and of the 10 copies ordered, 9 still sit on our shelf.
lord_blackfang wrote: C'mon guys we heard like 2 pages ago that their whole workflow software went belly up to the point they've had to cancel new releases for the forseeable future, can we drop the evil empire/Chapterhouse/microchips in the glue applicator angles.
That is still no explenation of them being so secretfull about it and refusing to tell that everyone.
Even if someone came with explanations, you don't want to hear it. Hell even watch a video coming with one. Just because it doesn't fit your narrative and you feel better thinking they're bootlickers.
Keep wearing your tinfoil hat, then.
I don't want some random to come out instead of GW and offer excuses. I want GW, themselves, to directly tell everyone exactly what drove them to stopping production and not telling anyone they're stopping productions and deleting all previous info about wheather or not Cursed City is a mainstay. Y'know, have some basic decency?
Why do you need that information?
The game is no longer available. It possibly will be available again at some point. If it is you can choose to buy it or not.
What other information do you need? why is having it important? Why do you feel entitled to this information?
lord_blackfang wrote: C'mon guys we heard like 2 pages ago that their whole workflow software went belly up to the point they've had to cancel new releases for the forseeable future, can we drop the evil empire/Chapterhouse/microchips in the glue applicator angles.
That is still no explenation of them being so secretfull about it and refusing to tell that everyone.
Even if someone came with explanations, you don't want to hear it. Hell even watch a video coming with one. Just because it doesn't fit your narrative and you feel better thinking they're bootlickers.
Keep wearing your tinfoil hat, then.
I don't want some random to come out instead of GW and offer excuses. I want GW, themselves, to directly tell everyone exactly what drove them to stopping production and not telling anyone they're stopping productions and deleting all previous info about wheather or not Cursed City is a mainstay. Y'know, have some basic decency?
Why do you need that information?
The game is no longer available. It possibly will be available again at some point. If it is you can choose to buy it or not.
What other information do you need? why is having it important? Why do you feel entitled to this information?
Idk I feel like a company saying why they felt the need to overnight go directly against their promises, cease communication and start rapidly deleting all evidence of them completely backtracking on their words is something that shouldn't be easily forgiven y'know? Or they could even give the bare minimum and ACKNOWLEDGE the fact they backtracked and deleted their own comments? Like, are you just going to forgive and tell everyone to move on if GW starts lying from now on and never tells you when a kit is model to be available and for how long? Are you gonna go "why do you feel entitled to that information" if GW puts out a new starter set for 40k and then takes it down at midnight and pretends it never existed?
Daedalus81 wrote: When you say there were not enough made how many is that, exactly?
There is absolutely no info on how many they made. Nor is there an easy path to predict the appropriate demand during a pandemic where people are getting $1,400 checks and video cards have tripled in price.
But let's presume they make another run. How many is appropriate for that? What is the demand? Are the people complaining on the internet interested or just complaining? How many boxes will languish in stores, because people opted to not go look for them? People are making a killing on this panic, because they're going to those shops and buying out the stock and reselling them on eBay for almost twice the price.
Actually, we do have some clues on how many there were. In the US, there were around 5600 of those silly keys available. All of those were gone, and the game was still on sale for a while after that with no key on the GW webstore. So we know GW had at least 5600+ copies in the US to sell on its own website. And that wouldn't include whatever was sent to GW and independent stores in the US. So it was a not inconsiderable number.
And it does seem someone miscalculated on Indomitus. After the initial outrage came the Made to Order. But it has not been difficult to just buy one off the shelf locally since Made to Order. A couple of my local stores still have copies.
I think the issue was there was a huge surge around Indomitus and a lot of stores over-ordered to give themselves a buffer. However at the same time customers were also ordering copies so the stores were ordering a buffer for a market that was already ordering copies.
Once hte market was satisfied there wasn't the surge of new customers to eat up the buffer as fast. That said through the whole of this edition its still a worthy boxed set so it should sell out eventually. Perhaps only once retail becomes safer and people start going out again.
Heck even when a new edition roles over the rule book was more of a freebie in that set anyway so it will be a fantastic lore and art book along with worthwhile models. Most of those sets will likely remain current for what 10 years
Actually, we do have some clues on how many there were. In the US, there were around 5600 of those silly keys available. All of those were gone, and the game was still on sale for a while after that with no key on the GW webstore. So we know GW had at least 5600+ copies in the US to sell on its own website. And that wouldn't include whatever was sent to GW and independent stores in the US. So it was a not inconsiderable number.
And it does seem someone miscalculated on Indomitus. After the initial outrage came the Made to Order. But it has not been difficult to just buy one off the shelf locally since Made to Order. A couple of my local stores still have copies.
There was 5600 keys worldwide, not for each region. There was also 1250 limited edition books, but not all of them were bundled with the game. Anyone know if we can still get the size of the shipments out of China, like how we knew the War of the Spider title back in 2020?
Actually, we do have some clues on how many there were. In the US, there were around 5600 of those silly keys available. All of those were gone, and the game was still on sale for a while after that with no key on the GW webstore. So we know GW had at least 5600+ copies in the US to sell on its own website. And that wouldn't include whatever was sent to GW and independent stores in the US. So it was a not inconsiderable number.
And it does seem someone miscalculated on Indomitus. After the initial outrage came the Made to Order. But it has not been difficult to just buy one off the shelf locally since Made to Order. A couple of my local stores still have copies.
There was 5600 keys worldwide, not for each region. There was also 1250 limited edition books, but not all of them were bundled with the game. Anyone know if we can still get the size of the shipments out of China, like how we knew the War of the Spider title back in 2020?
What would the point be of putting that number on the US website then, when orders in a good part of the world were already live and sold out before it even became available here?
how many boxes were ordered,
how many were ordered then the individual/store decided they didn't want them after all but before production happened
how many were ordered, producted and then rejected by the individual (using handy distance selling regs)
it may be the whole thing was enough of a pain that even though it looks like they could sell a bunch more, that it isn't anthing like as clear cut when you look at the numbers from a similarish recent item
I had extreme levels of buyer's remorse for Indomitus. We had a second round of orders at our FLGS and of the 10 copies ordered, 9 still sit on our shelf.
Man get on that.
I just broke down a box of Indomitus bought for £98, and it’s recouped cost and more. £145 selling individual parts and still 3 units and 6 characters to go.
I don't want some random to come out instead of GW and offer excuses. I want GW, themselves, to directly tell everyone exactly what drove them to stopping production and not telling anyone they're stopping productions and deleting all previous info about wheather or not Cursed City is a mainstay. Y'know, have some basic decency?
Can you find an example of a corporation doing that?
Seriously, really??? Ever heard of semiconductors?
kodos wrote: "too expensive to make more" is no reason why there were not enough in the first place or why there is no "cast on demand" but removing everything after the release
The reason there were not enough copies in the first place is because it was intended to be a recurring stock item. This should be self explanatory. If you are intending to sell something for the next 3 years you don't produce a million copies before the product even releases, you produce enough to maintain some degree of availability until you can release the next batch of the product. GW probably only produced something like 10 thousand copies to begin with, because they expected to continue producing it. When they came to the realization that costs prohibited the continuation of production and release, they decided to dump what they already had inventory of and then abandon the product line. Realistically, the decision was probably made weeks before release by bean counters at corporate and was likely not communicated down to marketing, distribution, and customer service until after the fact - its likely that they were probably some way into manufacturing the would-be second wave of product when the decision was made.
if cardstock is the big issue, because it was done externally and cannot be done again for now because of the pandemic, why are all the other products with external done printed paper still on the website
Could be because the cardstock in Cursed City just costs more than the cardstock in warhammer underworlds, for example. They also are likely sitting on large inventory of a lot of the other relevant items already since they are older releases that aren't in immediate demand.
To my knowledge GW never produced any figures in Memphis. I thought the early 2000’s or late 1990’s was when they where trying to set it up. When did they change over from metal to fine cast, early 2010’s?
Oh they absolutely did, the factory ran for quite some time and had at least a half dozen plastic injection machines on top of a number of metal and finecast spincasting machines, etc. I was able to find some posts by a longtime dakkite who used to work production at the factory, think his screenname was mechanicalhorizon.
totalfailure wrote: What would the point be of putting that number on the US website then, when orders in a good part of the world were already live and sold out before it even became available here?
Because the legal text is written with the local jurisdiction and doing specific text for each sales territory is needless work.
Actually, we do have some clues on how many there were. In the US, there were around 5600 of those silly keys available. All of those were gone, and the game was still on sale for a while after that with no key on the GW webstore. So we know GW had at least 5600+ copies in the US to sell on its own website. And that wouldn't include whatever was sent to GW and independent stores in the US. So it was a not inconsiderable number.
And it does seem someone miscalculated on Indomitus. After the initial outrage came the Made to Order. But it has not been difficult to just buy one off the shelf locally since Made to Order. A couple of my local stores still have copies.
There was 5600 keys worldwide, not for each region. There was also 1250 limited edition books, but not all of them were bundled with the game. Anyone know if we can still get the size of the shipments out of China, like how we knew the War of the Spider title back in 2020?
What would the point be of putting that number on the US website then, when orders in a good part of the world were already live and sold out before it even became available here?
That was the same number on the New Zealand and UK sites when their pre-orders went up. It’s just like with the limited edition books each region gets an allotment of the print run.
To my knowledge GW never produced any figures in Memphis. I thought the early 2000’s or late 1990’s was when they where trying to set it up. When did they change over from metal to fine cast, early 2010’s?
Oh they absolutely did, the factory ran for quite some time and had at least a half dozen plastic injection machines on top of a number of metal and finecast spincasting machines, etc. I was able to find some posts by a longtime dakkite who used to work production at the factory, think his screenname was mechanicalhorizon.
Today I learned, makes me almost want to go back and see if any of my old boxes are marked made in the US.
The reason there were not enough copies in the first place is because it was intended to be a recurring stock item. This should be self explanatory. If you are intending to sell something for the next 3 years you don't produce a million copies before the product even releases, you produce enough to maintain some degree of availability until you can release the next batch of the product. GW probably only produced something like 10 thousand copies to begin with, because they expected to continue producing it. When they came to the realization that costs prohibited the continuation of production and release, they decided to dump what they already had inventory of and then abandon the product line. Realistically, the decision was probably made weeks before release by bean counters at corporate and was likely not communicated down to marketing, distribution, and customer service until after the fact - its likely that they were probably some way into manufacturing the would-be second wave of product when the decision was made.
Indomitus is the perfect example of monomentum & hype being the man reason for GW sales
everything that comes "too late" does not sell at all and GW said themselves years back that sales after the initial pre-order/release weeekends are negligible (and a product not making the money back on release is considered a fail)
so if their ESP System is really in such a bad condition that they got the numbers wrong (might haven been calculated wrong from previous sales or just given the wrong number to the facility or doubling numbers for "produced" units etc. there is a lot that can go wrong during a system change without anyone notice until it is too late) and just produced not enough boxes to make the money back on release, removing everything because they know as soon as the "hype" is gone even a made to order won't help them to reach the break even point would be a possibility
just producing less because they thought it will be possible to do more later but now have problems to find a print-shop for cardboard is not really a reason to remove it from the shop instead of list it as "out of stock"
still not explains why they think that removing evidence of their promisses instead of going directly to the costumers with "mistakes were made" as this is a Fanboy driven niche anyway
such a move might hurt them much more in the longterm than any bad "feelings" on the stock market
NinthMusketeer wrote: Seems strange to me, surely they could just come out and state 'hey we can't do this right now because pandemic, but we will get to further print runs in 2022.' If profit margin is the problem they can increase the price. Certainly there is demand.
And then you have less to sell other items.
You DO know they can't just snap fingers and have new items come out right? When their casting machines are working non stop and still can't do enough to meet up with demand any production of cc is away from something else. Like from next new release that sells better than old item(kits sell most in first 3 month. After that it's trickle sales)
how many boxes were ordered,
how many were ordered then the individual/store decided they didn't want them after all but before production happened
how many were ordered, producted and then rejected by the individual (using handy distance selling regs)
it may be the whole thing was enough of a pain that even though it looks like they could sell a bunch more, that it isn't anthing like as clear cut when you look at the numbers from a similarish recent item
I had extreme levels of buyer's remorse for Indomitus. We had a second round of orders at our FLGS and of the 10 copies ordered, 9 still sit on our shelf.
Man get on that.
I just broke down a box of Indomitus bought for £98, and it’s recouped cost and more. £145 selling individual parts and still 3 units and 6 characters to go.
I already sold everything. I left 40K for AoS 6 months ago and it's been the best decision I've made in years.
So maybe you have luck and still have stock in your country ?
I don't talk about stock, but that the game can still be found in the store, anything you mentioned as "explaination" does not solve the question why Cursed City was removed from the store
not simply being out of stock, but not being there at all
only explaination is that GW will never bring it back (like your French version of Blackstone Fortress), and again, none of the problems you mentioned explains why it is impossible for GW to bring it back when there is the possibility to bring back (the english version) Blackstone Fortress (as if cardboard is too expensive and hard to get, they would have removed that one too)
While I get what you're saying, GW are not bringing back the English version of BSF either. If you're asking why they haven't removed it from the web store entirely yet, it's probably because they haven't yet got around to it. I think there's close to zero chance they ever do a new print of BSF though. For Cursed City I think they removed it as so many people were enquiring about it.
lord_blackfang wrote: C'mon guys we heard like 2 pages ago that their whole workflow software went belly up to the point they've had to cancel new releases for the forseeable future, can we drop the evil empire/Chapterhouse/microchips in the glue applicator angles.
That is still no explenation of them being so secretfull about it and refusing to tell that everyone.
Even if someone came with explanations, you don't want to hear it. Hell even watch a video coming with one. Just because it doesn't fit your narrative and you feel better thinking they're bootlickers.
Keep wearing your tinfoil hat, then.
I don't want some random to come out instead of GW and offer excuses. I want GW, themselves, to directly tell everyone exactly what drove them to stopping production and not telling anyone they're stopping productions and deleting all previous info about wheather or not Cursed City is a mainstay. Y'know, have some basic decency?
Why do you need that information?
The game is no longer available. It possibly will be available again at some point. If it is you can choose to buy it or not.
What other information do you need? why is having it important? Why do you feel entitled to this information?
Idk I feel like a company saying why they felt the need to overnight go directly against their promises, cease communication and start rapidly deleting all evidence of them completely backtracking on their words is something that shouldn't be easily forgiven y'know? Or they could even give the bare minimum and ACKNOWLEDGE the fact they backtracked and deleted their own comments? Like, are you just going to forgive and tell everyone to move on if GW starts lying from now on and never tells you when a kit is model to be available and for how long? Are you gonna go "why do you feel entitled to that information" if GW puts out a new starter set for 40k and then takes it down at midnight and pretends it never existed?
Jesus. You're not being lied to. Circumstances changed, and the company changed their plans to match. GW never made any promises to you. They don't owe you any kind of explanation beyond "This product is no longer available". Stop acting like they're a girlfriend you think cheated on you.
lord_blackfang wrote: C'mon guys we heard like 2 pages ago that their whole workflow software went belly up to the point they've had to cancel new releases for the forseeable future, can we drop the evil empire/Chapterhouse/microchips in the glue applicator angles.
That is still no explenation of them being so secretfull about it and refusing to tell that everyone.
Even if someone came with explanations, you don't want to hear it. Hell even watch a video coming with one. Just because it doesn't fit your narrative and you feel better thinking they're bootlickers.
Keep wearing your tinfoil hat, then.
I don't want some random to come out instead of GW and offer excuses. I want GW, themselves, to directly tell everyone exactly what drove them to stopping production and not telling anyone they're stopping productions and deleting all previous info about wheather or not Cursed City is a mainstay. Y'know, have some basic decency?
Why do you need that information?
The game is no longer available. It possibly will be available again at some point. If it is you can choose to buy it or not.
What other information do you need? why is having it important? Why do you feel entitled to this information?
Idk I feel like a company saying why they felt the need to overnight go directly against their promises, cease communication and start rapidly deleting all evidence of them completely backtracking on their words is something that shouldn't be easily forgiven y'know? Or they could even give the bare minimum and ACKNOWLEDGE the fact they backtracked and deleted their own comments? Like, are you just going to forgive and tell everyone to move on if GW starts lying from now on and never tells you when a kit is model to be available and for how long? Are you gonna go "why do you feel entitled to that information" if GW puts out a new starter set for 40k and then takes it down at midnight and pretends it never existed?
Jesus. You're not being lied to. Circumstances changed, and the company changed their plans to match. GW never made any promises to you. They don't owe you any kind of explanation beyond "This product is no longer available". Stop acting like they're a girlfriend you think cheated on you.
Jesus. You're not being lied to. Circumstances changed, and the company changed their plans to match. GW never made any promises to you. They don't owe you any kind of explanation beyond "This product is no longer available". Stop acting like they're a girlfriend you think cheated on you.
well, true if GW would have said it that way
but they try to remove all the evidence that they ever said something different than "one time only"
would not be a problem if they came out with "changed our mind and now it is gone" but going the way "we never said it is will be available afterwards" is were the hate comes from
and in this case, the hate is justified as they tried to play stupid on the costumer to cover up their own mistakes and there is no reason to accept or defend such behavior as they make products for fans (and if they think we the fans are idots who don't deserve answers but only deleting the announcements without comment, they should not be suprised of the fans react like "idiots")
Jesus. You're not being lied to. Circumstances changed, and the company changed their plans to match. GW never made any promises to you. They don't owe you any kind of explanation beyond "This product is no longer available". Stop acting like they're a girlfriend you think cheated on you.
well, true if GW would have said it that way
but they try to remove all the evidence that they ever said something different than "one time only"
would not be a problem if they came out with "changed our mind and now it is gone" but going the way "we never said it is will be available afterwards" is were the hate comes from
and in this case, the hate is justified as they tried to play stupid on the costumer to cover up their own mistakes and there is no reason to accept or defend such behavior as they make products for fans (and if they think we the fans are idots who don't deserve answers but only deleting the announcements without comment, they should not be suprised of the fans react like "idiots")
Genuine question; where did GWactually say "we never said it will be available afterwards"? Everything I've seen posted has stated that it is not available online (which is true) and that they do not know if or when it will be available again online (also seemingly true). They have removed earlier messages because circumstances have changed and as pointed out in the Ash's video and numerous other locations that's what companies do when that happens to avoid confusion. It's not nefarious concealment so much as updating the messaging to the current reality which, unfortunately in this case, means that the item that people want is not available.
Can we speculate that there was a mistake made when they told people it would continue to be available? Sure, and those posts are strong evidence in support of that theory. However you're claiming that they have taken an action that deny that the things were ever said versus the information being removed for no longer being accurate. There's a world of difference between those two things.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Actually it's still available online in China. Make of that what you will
Wait a bloody second, how is a tabletop game about fighting skeletons and vampires avalible in a country that banned depictions of skeletons and undead in games? Is it because it only applies to video games?
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Actually it's still available online in China. Make of that what you will
Wait a bloody second, how is a tabletop game about fighting skeletons and vampires avalible in a country that banned depictions of skeletons and undead in games? Is it because it only applies to video games?
I was wondering about that, since China evidently is very against skulls and stuff in media. Even movies have to be careful.
As I understand it skeletons are not banned in China. However the approval board that lets your product into China is very haphazard and can ban for almost random things.
As a result when something gets banned it gets noticed and one time something with skeletons got banned so everyone who wants to get into that market pulled skeletons to avoid the chance of being used as a reason.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Seems strange to me, surely they could just come out and state 'hey we can't do this right now because pandemic, but we will get to further print runs in 2022.' If profit margin is the problem they can increase the price. Certainly there is demand.
And then you have less to sell other items.
You DO know they can't just snap fingers and have new items come out right? When their casting machines are working non stop and still can't do enough to meet up with demand any production of cc is away from something else. Like from next new release that sells better than old item(kits sell most in first 3 month. After that it's trickle sales)
You don't get it. They have guaranteed sales here, and a hell of a lot of good will on the line. They print X copies they will sell out within the year. Sell the dam thing for $300 people will still buy it. Make it direct only to increase the margin even further. It will sell and it will appease the customer base. Because the attitude the customer base has towards GW matters quite a lot to their sales, as much as accountants might wish otherwise.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Actually it's still available online in China. Make of that what you will
Wait a bloody second, how is a tabletop game about fighting skeletons and vampires avalible in a country that banned depictions of skeletons and undead in games? Is it because it only applies to video games?
I was wondering about that, since China evidently is very against skulls and stuff in media. Even movies have to be careful.
There you are, bringing logic to an illogical decision, again.
That ranks up there along with.... How are you selling a wargame or any product in a communist country. o.O
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Actually it's still available online in China. Make of that what you will
Wait a bloody second, how is a tabletop game about fighting skeletons and vampires avalible in a country that banned depictions of skeletons and undead in games? Is it because it only applies to video games?
I was wondering about that, since China evidently is very against skulls and stuff in media. Even movies have to be careful.
There you are, bringing logic to an illogical decision, again.
That ranks up there along with.... How are you selling a wargame or any product in a communist country. o.O
China might be communist in-name-only, but their dislike of skulls is very much real.
It's completely anecdotal on my part (more of a 'feeling' about stuff) and with no other rational to it, but I think:
The GW of 2007-2010ish would have absolutely given no information at all, sold only a small number and then 'pulled up the fortress drawbridge'. There might have been a few snide "you'll get what we give you" comments from people that may or not work for GW. Perhaps a C&D or two might be issued to a website that had some kind of leak on the news or miniature photos. The game would sell out and that would be it.
The GW of 2021 I don't think would have done this. How crazy does the above version sound now when you read it? Yet that is how things were and shows how far the company has come in terms of customer relations, social media, engagement with it's fanbase.
I don't believe for one moment those Warhammer Community comments were made as a guess or in error. I think they genuinely thought that the game was meant to remain on sale and have reprints but something has happened, perhaps what Lord Blackfang has mentioned a few times. We don't know exactly what that was, but you would have to guess that it was a big enough 'incident' that they can't promise future reprints, or at least the GW of 2021 doesn't want to give false info/promises and not be able to fulfil them.
Despite everything that has been said, I feel like eventually this game will go back on sale. And that's not White Knighting like the dude in that video, I genuinely think some hope should be given to a company that has made such an effort to improve it's customer relations over the last decade.
At this point I'm just impressed they decided to burn so much goodwill to the bloody ground by doing it this way instead of simply going "we're having sudden issues we don't know when and if Cursed City will be avalible again"
But I guess that's not as profitable as shutting up and pretending nothing is wrong to not upset the shareholders, knowing their fanbase will consume the next product anyway.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Seems strange to me, surely they could just come out and state 'hey we can't do this right now because pandemic, but we will get to further print runs in 2022.' If profit margin is the problem they can increase the price. Certainly there is demand.
And then you have less to sell other items.
You DO know they can't just snap fingers and have new items come out right? When their casting machines are working non stop and still can't do enough to meet up with demand any production of cc is away from something else. Like from next new release that sells better than old item(kits sell most in first 3 month. After that it's trickle sales)
You don't get it. They have guaranteed sales here, and a hell of a lot of good will on the line. They print X copies they will sell out within the year. Sell the dam thing for $300 people will still buy it. Make it direct only to increase the margin even further. It will sell and it will appease the customer base. Because the attitude the customer base has towards GW matters quite a lot to their sales, as much as accountants might wish otherwise.
Part of the issue may be they only have so much production capacity - we know pre COVID they were running at capacity and intending to majorly invest in expanding it, and the UK lockdown has reduced what they had.
Certainly they’ve been really struggling to keep things in stock recently (just look at all the pre-order sellouts, or the Drukhari range which seems to be mostly sold out). Most likely to ramp up production of one thing would mean reducing something else. If they oversold on preorder for CC its next planned production slot could have been some way off.
Could be that whatever incident has happened that has messed with pre-orders has brought things to ahead and they’ve had to cut something and CC is it (or they may still be doing damage control and not know the full impact so don’t want to commit to a restock timeline).
Another (slim) possibility is that there might have been bits for a restock on the Evergreen and it’s been impounded (which happened to a friend of mine).
Daedalus81 wrote: When you say there were not enough made how many is that, exactly?
There is absolutely no info on how many they made. Nor is there an easy path to predict the appropriate demand during a pandemic where people are getting $1,400 checks and video cards have tripled in price.
But let's presume they make another run. How many is appropriate for that? What is the demand? Are the people complaining on the internet interested or just complaining? How many boxes will languish in stores, because people opted to not go look for them? People are making a killing on this panic, because they're going to those shops and buying out the stock and reselling them on eBay for almost twice the price.
If they wanted to establish a rough idea of current demand, they could easily run a Made to Order for it, though probably in H2 to give some of the palaver time to die down.
A M2O isn't going to pick everyone up who might want a copy, but you set some benchmarks and see if there's enough demand for it to then consider a, doing expansions; b, returning it as a BSF line item; or c, both.
But then they have to schedule a M2O during a time when they're struggling to keep regular product on the shelves.
Ian Sturrock wrote: Anyone else order from ZATU in the UK? In theory I ordered while Cursed City was in stock, but a week down the line my order is still "processing".
You should contact them. Unfortunately the chances are it wasn’t actually in stock and they won’t be fulfilling your order but won’t actually refund you unless you contact them.
Actually, we do have some clues on how many there were. In the US, there were around 5600 of those silly keys available. All of those were gone, and the game was still on sale for a while after that with no key on the GW webstore. So we know GW had at least 5600+ copies in the US to sell on its own website. And that wouldn't include whatever was sent to GW and independent stores in the US. So it was a not inconsiderable number.
And it does seem someone miscalculated on Indomitus. After the initial outrage came the Made to Order. But it has not been difficult to just buy one off the shelf locally since Made to Order. A couple of my local stores still have copies.
Sort of case in point. Indomitus is now over-produced and lots of stores have multiple copies that will probably languish. That FLGS bought that and gets no money for it.
but they try to remove all the evidence that they ever said something different than "one time only"
would not be a problem if they came out with "changed our mind and now it is gone" but going the way "we never said it is will be available afterwards" is were the hate comes from
and in this case, the hate is justified as they tried to play stupid on the costumer to cover up their own mistakes and there is no reason to accept or defend such behavior as they make products for fans (and if they think we the fans are idots who don't deserve answers but only deleting the announcements without comment, they should not be suprised of the fans react like "idiots")
Like Ash said in his video, it's not about "removing evidence", just a marketing / communication practice to keep being coherent when the message changes.
What, you would rather like they keep the previous messages that would contradict their new information, so that people could attack them more about how incoherent they were ?
Either way, it's impossible to please everyone. So better stick to a plan and squeeze your butt while the storm is out.
Besides, even Mantic Games removes previous messages on their social network that are unfavorable to them or when the message changes - remember when they shut the forums down and what happened on their main page at that time ?
but they try to remove all the evidence that they ever said something different than "one time only"
would not be a problem if they came out with "changed our mind and now it is gone" but going the way "we never said it is will be available afterwards" is were the hate comes from
and in this case, the hate is justified as they tried to play stupid on the costumer to cover up their own mistakes and there is no reason to accept or defend such behavior as they make products for fans (and if they think we the fans are idots who don't deserve answers but only deleting the announcements without comment, they should not be suprised of the fans react like "idiots")
Like Ash said in his video, it's not about "removing evidence", just a marketing / communication practice to keep being coherent when the message changes.
What, you would rather like they keep the previous messages that would contradict their new information, so that people could attack them more about how incoherent they were ?
GW is selling a niche hobby product within a niche bubble were selling stuff relies on the goodwill of the people
This is not a big worldwide company were it might cause 1000 people storming a shop because a month old Twitter post was not deleted, this a niche within a niche, everyone who want to know about already knows it and has read the old messages
removing them instead of giving an explanation to avoid attacks just causes them because those affacted already know and removing them does not make it unkown (and all those who had not read it by that time do not care enough anyway)
ever heard of the Streisand effect?
leaving everything in, keep the original announcement, the box in the stores and saying nothing might have caused some trouble but it is GW and things would have calmed down soon as it is nothing unusual for them
but removing stuff that way is something different so must be caused by something that never happened before, and this won't calm down until people know more about it
What you mean even mantic? I mean it's like comparing a whale to a sardine.
Its not about being coherent with messages is more about hiding the fiasco than anything else. Many did not buy now and were planing to buy later as per evidence.
Either way its clear GW failed here and if people think is as usual, its not. If they spent a decade building bridges/trust with the clients these stunts do undermine that.
Even for those today that think people are overreacting I would just ask.
If GW now releases a new box of X whatever game and says the box is not one shot and will have a good shelf time... would you believe it?
That is the difference!
leaving everything in, keep the original announcement, the box in the stores and saying nothing might have caused some trouble but it is GW and things would have calmed down soon as it is nothing unusual for them
but removing stuff that way is something different so must be caused by something that never happened before, and this won't calm down until people know more about it
Yeah, that doesn't work.
Can totally relate to what happens at my job - we have the communication staff releasing a message about the expected delay of the treatment of our customers' requests. Problem : it wasn't accurate to the reality of massive demands and delays with the software allowing us to treat their requests. So they had to change the message and telling our customers that the delay is longer than before.
Did they keep the previous message on our website with the former delays ? No. They changed it so that now, it only tells the new delays. Because that's what communication does when they change the message : they make sure there is nothing contradicting it where people come for information. If they didn't, it would cause more chaos than solve it and people would get even more angry at our Call Center than they already are.
Oh, and if you wonder, we're not telling our customers that's it's because we are understaffed and our software has delays. Because that's not information they really need to know and...well...it's not something our hierarchy wants in the open as well for many reasons, not especially because they're evil but because that kind of information in the open could harm us way more than being beneficial. And it wouldn't help the customers to have their requests granted faster anyway (which is the main reason they're contacting us, after all - they want their requests granted, knowing what's taking so long may sure help some to soothe their anger, but that's far from being the case of all people).
Where does GW give information ? On Warhammer Community and their social networks. So it makes sense they change the message there so that it's all coherent everywhere. They don't just keep the old message that could mislead customers into having the wrong information.
Information about availability of their products totally fall in that category.
NAVARRO wrote: What you mean even mantic? I mean it's like comparing a whale to a sardine.
Irrelevant. They're both companies selling similar products and using communication to hype and get in touch with their customers.
They're not on the same scale, true, but they use the same tricks and have the same purpose : making money by selling games and miniatures.
but they try to remove all the evidence that they ever said something different than "one time only"
would not be a problem if they came out with "changed our mind and now it is gone" but going the way "we never said it is will be available afterwards" is were the hate comes from
and in this case, the hate is justified as they tried to play stupid on the costumer to cover up their own mistakes and there is no reason to accept or defend such behavior as they make products for fans (and if they think we the fans are idots who don't deserve answers but only deleting the announcements without comment, they should not be suprised of the fans react like "idiots")
Like Ash said in his video, it's not about "removing evidence", just a marketing / communication practice to keep being coherent when the message changes.
What, you would rather like they keep the previous messages that would contradict their new information, so that people could attack them more about how incoherent they were ?
Either way, it's impossible to please everyone. So better stick to a plan and squeeze your butt while the storm is out.
Besides, even Mantic Games removes previous messages on their social network that are unfavorable to them or when the message changes - remember when they shut the forums down and what happened on their main page at that time ?
Maybe bloody admitting they were wrong and due to unforseen circumstances things have changed since their initial confirmation, and NOT pretending there never was any official confirmation on it in the first place? The difference between admitting what you said is now inaccurate VS pretending you never said anything in the first place and deleting all the evidence quietly is not that hard of a concept to grasp.
Maybe bloody admitting they were wrong and due to unforseen circumstances things have changed since their initial confirmation, and NOT pretending there never was any official confirmation on it in the first place? The difference between admitting what you said is now inaccurate VS pretending you never said anything in the first place and deleting all the evidence quietly is not that hard of a concept to grasp.
"Nobody owes you something just because you wanted it."
Controversial, yeah, but so damn true in everything in this life.
And keep believing your conspiracy theory that their purpose was to delete all evidence, at this point I don't care anymore. Raging at the moon is useless and never solves any problem.
Can totally relate to what happens at my job - we have the communication staff releasing a message about the expected delay of the treatment of our customers' requests. Problem : it wasn't accurate to the reality of massive demands and delays with the software allowing us to treat their requests. So they had to change the message and telling our customers that the delay is longer than before.
ok, so you told your costumers that there is a delay and changed the date on the webstore
how is this comparable to removing Social Media posts that you planned selling it and removing the items from the so that new costumers are ever going to see that it and just telling the costumer that it is gone?
imagine your company instead of changing the release date and telling the costumer that it will take some more time, to just say "it is not available any more and we might release in future for other projects" and remove the announcements on social media that you are producing it at all
I don't think that the costumer will say "this is ok, just normal communication between company and costumer, we will wait until your new product is released"
Maybe bloody admitting they were wrong and due to unforseen circumstances things have changed since their initial confirmation, and NOT pretending there never was any official confirmation on it in the first place? The difference between admitting what you said is now inaccurate VS pretending you never said anything in the first place and deleting all the evidence quietly is not that hard of a concept to grasp.
"Nobody owes you something just because you wanted it."
Controversial, yeah, but so damn true in everything in this life.
And keep believing your conspiracy theory, at this point I don't care anymore. Raging at the moon is useless and never solves any problem.
I'm actively getting annoyed at you.
Do you seriously not see the difference between GW going "Our initial statements regarding Cursed City's avalibility are no longer accurate due to circumstances we weren't aware of previously, and thus we don't know where it will be avalible again." or some other PR talk; and GW putting their hands togather, smiling impossibly widely and going "There was never any Cursed City. There was never any initial statement. There were no Facebook comments. We have always been at war with Eurasia." As they delete all evidence of them ever saying Cursed City was going to stay?
There is no bloody conspiracy theory anymore, and all I'm being entitled to is the most basic amount of communication, which I think I have a right to as a paying customer, y'know?
ok, so you told your costumers that there is a delay and changed the date on the webstore
how is this comparable to removing Social Media posts that you planned selling it and removing the items from the so that new costumers are ever going to see that it and just telling the costumer that it is gone?
imagine your company instead of changing the release date and telling the costumer that it will take some more time, to just say "it is not available any more and we might release in future for other projects" and remove the announcements on social media that you are producing it at all
I don't think that the costumer will say "this is ok, just normal communication between company and costumer, we will wait until your new product is released"
How is it comparable ? If we did have a social network page where we put such kind of information put in one of our tweets / replies, make sure our communication staff would have remove them as well. Because keeping them would mean the old information would still be available to our customers and confusion would be there. That's how it's comparable.
There is no bloody conspiracy theory anymore, and all I'm being entitled to is the most basic amount of communication, which I think I have a right to as a paying customer, y'know?
Thing is, you're not entitled to anything.
GW gives whatever information they want us to know. If they don't want to give that information yet because of their own reasons, you won't have it.
Because unless you indeed pre-ordered a box of Cursed City, didn't get it and didn't get refunded, you're actually not a "paying customer" here entitled to know where's your box you paid for.
That's why GW owes you nothing just because you want it.
because your item is still available to buy and your customers is informed that it will take longer than expected
how would your costumer react if you canceled your product but don't tell them and just replace the release that with "might be available future" on your website
do you think your costumer will wait for months because this is normal communication and comes back to buy something else while he still waits for the other product?
I guess you just write an email that they are not entitled to know anything and it is your decision to tell them something or nothing at all.
How would they react to such a statemant instead of "we have problems and the product is delayed for several weeks but it will be delivered"
ok, so you told your costumers that there is a delay and changed the date on the webstore
how is this comparable to removing Social Media posts that you planned selling it and removing the items from the so that new costumers are ever going to see that it and just telling the costumer that it is gone?
imagine your company instead of changing the release date and telling the costumer that it will take some more time, to just say "it is not available any more and we might release in future for other projects" and remove the announcements on social media that you are producing it at all
I don't think that the costumer will say "this is ok, just normal communication between company and costumer, we will wait until your new product is released"
How is it comparable ? If we did have a social network page where we put such kind of information put in one of our tweets / replies, make sure our communication staff would have remove them as well. Because keeping them would mean the old information would still be available to our customers and confusion would be there. That's how it's comparable.
There is no bloody conspiracy theory anymore, and all I'm being entitled to is the most basic amount of communication, which I think I have a right to as a paying customer, y'know?
Thing is, you're not entitled to anything.
GW gives whatever information they want us to know. If they don't want to give that information yet because of their own reasons, you won't have it.
Because unless you indeed pre-ordered a box of Cursed City, didn't get it and didn't get refunded, you're actually not a "paying customer" here entitled to know where's your box you paid for.
That's why GW owes you nothing just because you want it.
Okay let me do a comprasion. I worked at retail, at a wee shop they have in Eastern Europe with bloody everything in it. They usually have a wee flier on the front door, where the time when the shop is open is written on. If we had to unexpectedly close, we would cover said flier with a piece of paper that said "Sorry we're closed for the moment due to unforseen circumstances."
What GW did was tear down the original flier, board up the front door, pretend the shop was never open in the first place and then go on to a crusade to destroy every piece of evidence the flier existed.
And you're standing next to someone in front of the door, a confused former customer, because they could swear there was a shop there, and when they go "What the feth, is the shop closed? Is it closing down forever? Why are they pretending there wasn't a shop?", you sneer and call them entitled and then go home.
NAVARRO wrote: What you mean even mantic? I mean it's like comparing a whale to a sardine.
Irrelevant. They're both companies selling similar products and using communication to hype and get in touch with their customers.
They're not on the same scale, true, but they use the same tricks and have the same purpose : making money by selling games and miniatures.
Lol The only thing not relevant is your comparison here, it doesn't add up.
The only thing they have similar is selling miniatures and thats about it. Leave mantic out of this its all GW here.
The don't owe us anything? Well the basic unspoken rule about any normal client relationship is called good faith. Without it you don't trust a damn thing a company says and that is the problem here. But yeah irrelevant
So is this only about bad communication or is there something else going on? Apparently there are still towers of boxes available in game stores, so are we expecting people to miss out on Cursed City?
There may be no conspiracy, but when you delete old information to customers, whatever you think your reasons are, the correct thing to do is write an updated official message and publish it concurrently. Noting the past mistake and removal is appropriate within the new message as well. This is actually pretty basic customer relations, people missing this fact are likely not very knowledgable on the subject. Talk of entitlement and other such sophomoric bluster is way outside of the subject.
BertBert wrote: So is this only about bad communication or is there something else going on? Apparently there are still towers of boxes available in game stores, so are we expecting people to miss out on Cursed City?
there is bad communication (although some this is normal for big industry) and something else is going on in the background and yes if you did not get a copy of CC yet you never will
not really a conspiracy but GW being on the best way to ruin the costumer goodwill they have build up after the past years at the same time they have internal troubles most likely caused by the change of their ERP System, just because they want to protect something else (if it is the ERP System that causes this they might want to cover it as long as possible and hope to solve it without news going to the stock market, which is of course more important than the loyal costumer)
kodos wrote: [...and yes if you did not get a copy of CC yet you never will
I've seen several on offer on eBay, some local online retailers and in FB trading groups, but you should expect to pay 100€ above retail at this point, if you aren't lucky enough to find that one in a hundred kind soul selling it at retail price.
And that's why they are still on ebay and the like - those prices are the kind only very very die hard fans are likely to spend.
As you say most areas are down to finding a copy in a local store that perhaps hasn't got an online market or has a very limited one and thus it hasn't been spotted. This isn't like Indomitus where there was so much stock around that ebay was swamped with cheap stock and such.
People generally respond better to bad news when it is told in a straightforward manner, and not obfuscated or sugar-coated.
GW's opacity with Cursed City is basically the opposite of that. There's no reason to be so quiet on this unless it's a major internal issue to do with management (which seems unlikely, as it would be affecting everything else).
Of course GW is never saying what I said bluntly. That's not how corporations answer to customers. It is only I, as a person with no ties with GW - I'm just a fan -, giving my opinion on this mess. And yes, it is the truth...there's anger and all but in the end ? We're talking about a product that you weren't able to buy online. If you're in the case of a real paying customer - pre-ordering or ordering against good money and you got nothing at all without any refund ; now you have the right to know and be really angry. Otherwise ? It's just a missed opportunity. Like plenty of other GW boxes in the past. Myself, I got some, missed a lot more (on purpose or just being unlucky), got angry a few times but in the end, I moved on.
Is it frustrating not to know if and when Cursed City will come back ? Obviously. Should we get angry at GW for keeping quiet and not giving a date so far ? I don't see why, the most likely reason is that they don't have the date themselves and they'd rather not communicate on something they're not sure yet. We saw what happened when someone is saying something a bit too fast about Cursed City's availability in the future, didn't we ?
And if you really can't see the point of my explanations, I can't force you to understand.
GW's opacity with Cursed City is basically the opposite of that. There's no reason to be so quiet on this unless it's a major internal issue to do with management (which seems unlikely, as it would be affecting everything else).
Sure, it's not like there's a pandemic around and Brexit on top of that affecting the whole production.
Ever notice how companies rarely, if ever, say that they were 'wrong' about things? It takes a monumental effort to get a company to do so. There are two reasons:
A company's official statement can be used against them in a court of law.
A company's official statement can alter their stock value, which would upset shareholders.
I really don't understand why people are still arguing about this... Oh, right, because there's nothing new to preorder this week.
This is just going to spin and spin and never really get anywhere until the next thing to complain about comes out. My bet will be... either the Slaanesh twins' rules, or people upset about the look of Kragnos when the full model comes out.
drbored wrote: I really don't understand why people are still arguing about this...
I don't believe that you really don't understand why this is being discussed.
GW made a fourth entry in their revamped Warhammr Quest line. They hyped it up with two previews, weeks of WarCom articles, a whole series of painting videos, a How To Play video, and it's own dedicated website that grew as more things were revealed.
Then it sold out in 20 seconds and GW are now all "New phone. Who dis?" when people want a simple answer on whether this is coming back and if there will be expansions.
Sarouan wrote: Of course GW is never saying what I said bluntly. That's not how corporations answer to customers. It is only I, as a person with no ties with GW - I'm just a fan -, giving my opinion on this mess. And yes, it is the truth...there's anger and all but in the end ? We're talking about a product that you weren't able to buy online. If you're in the case of a real paying customer - pre-ordering or ordering against good money and you got nothing at all without any refund ; now you have the right to know and be really angry. Otherwise ? It's just a missed opportunity. Like plenty of other GW boxes in the past. Myself, I got some, missed a lot more (on purpose or just being unlucky), got angry a few times but in the end, I moved on.
Is it frustrating not to know if and when Cursed City will come back ? Obviously. Should we get angry at GW for keeping quiet and not giving a date so far ? I don't see why, the most likely reason is that they don't have the date themselves and they'd rather not communicate on something they're not sure yet. We saw what happened when someone is saying something a bit too fast about Cursed City's availability in the future, didn't we ?
And if you really can't see the point of my explanations, I can't force you to understand.
GW's opacity with Cursed City is basically the opposite of that. There's no reason to be so quiet on this unless it's a major internal issue to do with management (which seems unlikely, as it would be affecting everything else).
Sure, it's not like there's a pandemic around and Brexit on top of that affecting the whole production.
That's no reason good enough already to keep quiet, isn't that.
Welp, whatever the real reason behind Cursed City's shortage, what we can only do is wait and see.
I'm impressed how you keep completely ignoring what everyone is saying to you and instead arguing with a point nobody is making.
It's not like GW is unable to literally bloody say "Cursed City is sold out, we don't know when it's going to be back due to circumstances beyond us, sorry, we deleted the previous comments because they contained now-outdated info" because of Covid, yes?
Because it's literally all we bloody want at this point, some token acknowledgement. Literally any official response, some bare minimum. We shouldn't need to be investigators piecing together a puzzle that can be solved by someone in their community team making an official statement.
That has literally nothing to do with what we're talking about.
The 'why' is largely unimportant. It's the 'if' that matters.
COVID or Brexit or a fething asteroid hitting Nottingham - these are all reasons why production can be delayed, but none of that matters. All that we're asking is if Cursed City (and/or any expansions) is coming back. Don't you get that?
That has literally nothing to do with what we're talking about.
The 'why' is largely unimportant. It's the 'if' that matters.
COVID or Brexit or a fething asteroid hitting Nottingham - these are all reasons why production can be delayed, but none of that matters. All that we're asking is if Cursed City (and/or any expansions) is coming back. Don't you get that?
At this point I would be satisfied with as much as GW admitting Cursed City is sold out and they don't know when it's going to be back, just for them to admit something, anything is going on instead of ignoring it.
That has literally nothing to do with what we're talking about.
The 'why' is largely unimportant. It's the 'if' that matters.
COVID or Brexit or a fething asteroid hitting Nottingham - these are all reasons why production can be delayed, but none of that matters. All that we're asking is if Cursed City (and/or any expansions) is coming back. Don't you get that?
At this point I would be satisfied with as much as GW admitting Cursed City is sold out and they don't know when it's going to be back, just for them to admit something, anything is going on instead of ignoring it.
You all get that GW is a big company with shareholders to keep happy yeah? Every statement they make will be planned and judged to give just the information needed, that will minimise damage to their shareholders investments and stock price. Keeping some unhappy internet types fully informed is very low down the list of priorities. I get the disappointment but the entitlement is a bit too far. It’s a shame and I’m sure this isn’t what GW had planned, if you really wanted this box I can imaging you are gutted but that’s as far as it goes really.
drbored wrote: I really don't understand why people are still arguing about this...
I don't believe that you really don't understand why this is being discussed.
GW made a fourth entry in their revamped Warhammr Quest line. They hyped it up with two previews, weeks of WarCom articles, a whole series of painting videos, a How To Play video, and it's own dedicated website that grew as more things were revealed.
Then it sold out in 20 seconds and GW are now all "New phone. Who dis?" when people want a simple answer on whether this is coming back and if there will be expansions.
But you knew that already...
And what I'm saying is that they're not behaving "new phone. who dis?" they're doing what many other companies around the world do.
You think Nintendo is going to bend over backwards to answer why every Pokemon game is exactly the same? Nah, they're just going to print it and Pokemon fans are going to buy it.
I get it though, GW have done a pretty good job of putting up this illusion that they're all our best bud and that they have a shoulder for us to cry on, only for them to retract that shoulder when we needed it most... The truth was that there wasn't a shoulder there in the first place.
privateer4hire wrote: Well, I wonder if Shadows of Brimstone from Flying Frog will see any increase in sales.
I've literally just been looking at the different boxset comparisons
(Although to be fair it has been on the shopping list for some time).
I had kinda written Brimstone off until Cursed City got me looking at alternatives.
Our FLGS actually got in several CC copies and I even had a chance to buy one.
But the models didn't enthuse me---especially the scenery carrying undead---and neither did the rules or the cuckoo price.
Been researching Brimstone videos and Board Game Geek reviews and SOB looks like a good not CC option.
They even have werewolves and vampires either already available or in the pipeline, too
drbored wrote: I really don't understand why people are still arguing about this...
I don't believe that you really don't understand why this is being discussed.
GW made a fourth entry in their revamped Warhammr Quest line. They hyped it up with two previews, weeks of WarCom articles, a whole series of painting videos, a How To Play video, and it's own dedicated website that grew as more things were revealed.
Then it sold out in 20 seconds and GW are now all "New phone. Who dis?" when people want a simple answer on whether this is coming back and if there will be expansions.
But you knew that already...
And what I'm saying is that they're not behaving "new phone. who dis?" they're doing what many other companies around the world do.
You think Nintendo is going to bend over backwards to answer why every Pokemon game is exactly the same? Nah, they're just going to print it and Pokemon fans are going to buy it.
I get it though, GW have done a pretty good job of putting up this illusion that they're all our best bud and that they have a shoulder for us to cry on, only for them to retract that shoulder when we needed it most... The truth was that there wasn't a shoulder there in the first place.
But if a Nintendo is delaying a Pokemon game they're gonna tell that everyone, instead of y'know, not relasing the game when they were supposed to and delete all mentions of the original relase date and pretend nothing is wrong
Ok, lets see what Nintendo is saying when a game sold out too early or is hard to get during a pandemic:
“Demand for this new proposal from Nintendo of exercising by playing an adventure game was so much higher than our forecasts that the global supply has been unable to keep up since release,” Nintendo says in its statement. “The lingering effects of this product shortage in the market are still an inconvenience to a large number of consumers, but as with the Nintendo Switch family of systems, we will continue to work to ensure a sufficient amount of shipments for the holiday season.”
lets try another one, Sony about the PS5:
“Everything is sold. Absolutely everything is sold,” Ryan said. “I’ve spent much of the last year trying to be sure that we can generate enough demand for the product. And now in terms of my executive bandwidth, I’m spending a lot more time on trying to increase supply to meet that demand.”
Ryan added that the COVID-19 pandemic had made things “challenging from the production side,” with Sony workers not being able to get into its factories in Asia during lockdowns.
“I wouldn’t plan on doing another big console launch in the midst of a global pandemic,” he said. “And I wouldn’t recommend it to anybody else.”
and Games Workshop:
Cused City is sold-out on games-workshop.com and were are not expected it to return online.
Many copies have been sent to local stores across the world. Please check with your local Warhammer store or independent retailer to see if they can help
Standard industry communication:
"We have tried, but because of unexpected issues (Corona) there is not enough but we do our best to get things done"
GW:
"it is gone, we don't know if it will return to the online store but you can ask retailers if they can help"
nothing about that there was an issue or mistake made, nothing that about if it will return or not (not expected to return online can mean anything from never available at all to "going to be an exclusive retailer item") and "ask someone else" as the suggestion what the costumer should do
and now saying those 3 statements are the same and give the same message to the costumer with the same information is, I don't know, maybe my Englisch is worse than I thought as I cannot see how they say the same
GW has messed it up and in good old GW manner makes it worse by acting (again) like they can do nothing wrong
so basically learned nothing from the Kirby years on how important communication with the costumer is and not matter if the message kills their stock price and get shareholders angry, in the long run they lose much more if they mess with their costumers
PS: also deleting posts that a product will be permanent available is not normal industry behavier
this is not the same as changing a release date and it even the non-wargaming industry news see it as worth to mention it in an article about the game
For the sake of argument "to avoid of being attacked based on old messages" now they have made sure that really everyone knows about it, also those who not follow Twitter or not care about GW.
That has literally nothing to do with what we're talking about.
The 'why' is largely unimportant. It's the 'if' that matters.
COVID or Brexit or a fething asteroid hitting Nottingham - these are all reasons why production can be delayed, but none of that matters. All that we're asking is if Cursed City (and/or any expansions) is coming back. Don't you get that?
At this point I would be satisfied with as much as GW admitting Cursed City is sold out and they don't know when it's going to be back, just for them to admit something, anything is going on instead of ignoring it.
You all get that GW is a big company with shareholders to keep happy yeah? Every statement they make will be planned and judged to give just the information needed, that will minimise damage to their shareholders investments and stock price. Keeping some unhappy internet types fully informed is very low down the list of priorities. I get the disappointment but the entitlement is a bit too far. It’s a shame and I’m sure this isn’t what GW had planned, if you really wanted this box I can imaging you are gutted but that’s as far as it goes really.
People are typically happier when a company admits it screwed up instead of the smoke and mirrors everyone knows how to see through, well outside people that have the bare minimum of critical thinking skills anyway.
GW doesn't like to explain, and it doesn't like to apologize. GW thinks "communication" means constantly bombarding the marks err customers with social-media style advertising "content." When things go wrong, radio silence is the preferred go-to, and when they go so wrong that isn't an option any more, they issue some kind of statement that is always very careful not to acknowledge it was their screw-up, and presenting whatever they're going to do about it as some big favor to everybody. People only think it's better than the Kirby era because back then they didn't even do the social media advertising err "engagement."
It's interesting, it's honestly rare to see a company so unwilling to hold up its hands when it screws up. Even their FAQs and errata never apologize or admit they got something wrong, no matter how badly they screw something up. Who can forget the Iron Hands nerf, where they so memorably let drop that they had been warned by the playtesting team what a fiasco they were creating, but decided to go ahead anyway because <reasons>, and then presented the fact that they were fixing what should never have been released in the first place as some sort of big gift to the community?
Cused City is sold-out on games-workshop.com and were are not expected it to return online.
Many copies have been sent to local stores across the world. Please check with your local Warhammer store or independent retailer to see if they can help
Don't forget, this isn't even something we were supposed to see! It was supposed to be a message only to retailers, and the only reason we saw it, is because someone leaked it.
I watched Ash’s video on GMG about his thoughts on it, and I agree with everything he said about it. The game not being a line product likely has to do with a manufacturing/logistical/printing issue, especially with the pandemic going on and how backed up printing/shipping in China is. He is also correct with a company not owing you anything because you wanted it, and about the deleting of comments.
I will add a caveat though to his comments, GW really needs to step up to the plate and release a comment about this. Something as simple as “Due to unforeseen complications with the manufacturing of Cursed City it will not be a main product line for the foreseeable future. We apologize for any confusion or inconvenience this may cause and if it is feasible to return at a later date we will let you know.”
It would clear up all this goofy conspiracy stuff and also (I believe) create some goodwill with those who are sore on the subject. When companies have issues that affect their consumers I appreciate when they are transparent about it, and I believe most people feel similar.
Sabotage! wrote: I watched Ash’s video on GMG about his thoughts on it, and I agree with everything he said about it. The game not being a line product likely has to do with a manufacturing/logistical/printing issue, especially with the pandemic going on and how backed up printing/shipping in China is. He is also correct with a company not owing you anything because you wanted it, and about the deleting of comments.
Ash is right about the logistics of things, but a lot of that is arguing against points no one is making.
It's every time someone says "BuT CoViD aNd BrExIt!!!" - none of that matters. We know there are delays. We know that GW has been impacted (they even said as much). None of this is in dispute. What we don't know is what the hell is going on with Cursed City, a game that up until it suddenly went away sure seemed like it was going to be around for a while, just like the other 3 new Quest games. Their silence on this is deafening.
I mean, when the PS5 ran out no one thought "OMG! Does that mean I missed out? Is it gone forever???".
Sabotage! wrote: He is also correct with a company not owing you anything because you wanted it, and about the deleting of comments.
Why do people keep bringing up entitlement? Yes, at the most fundamental level, the only thing a company "owes" you is to deliver a functional product you've paid for, and that's it.
But if they want to sell me a product, they should have it available.
If they want to sell me a product in the future, they should let me know that and when it will be available.
If they want to ensure I'm confused as to whether I'll be able to buy a product, and prefer if I take my money elsewhere (not out of spite, but merely because they don't offer the thing I would have paid them for), then telling me I can buy a product, subsequently not having the product and afterwards being silent about whether I can buy the product later (just a paragraph on WarCom/in a newsletter will do), well, that'd be the perfect strategy.
This is not information that should only be available via someone on a forum who follows a store on social media who happens to have this information or whatever.
Don't care about an apology, would be interested in the "why?" (both as a customer and just out of curiosity), but it's very much in their own best interests to at least offer the "what?".
Although if they want future statements to be somewhat trustworthy, something about the "why" also very much helps. Otherwise, the impression is just that they can apparently just change their minds on a whim. Fine for Quest; not ideal for convincing people to invest in products whose attractiveness relies on long-term support, like most of their other products.
Sabotage! wrote: I watched Ash’s video on GMG about his thoughts on it, and I agree with everything he said about it. The game not being a line product likely has to do with a manufacturing/logistical/printing issue, especially with the pandemic going on and how backed up printing/shipping in China is. He is also correct with a company not owing you anything because you wanted it, and about the deleting of comments.
Ash is right about the logistics of things, but a lot of that is arguing against points no one is making.
It's every time someone says "BuT CoViD aNd BrExIt!!!" - none of that matters. We know there are delays. We know that GW has been impacted (they even said as much). None of this is in dispute. What we don't know is what the hell is going on with Cursed City, a game that up until it suddenly went away sure seemed like it was going to be around for a while, just like the other 3 new Quest games. Their silence on this is deafening.
I mean, when the PS5 ran out no one thought "OMG! Does that mean I missed out? Is it gone forever???".
And I agree with you 100% about being silent with this. GW needs to step up to the plate and simple tell people what is going on (not even specifics), because it is disrespectful to your customers to lead them to believe one thing, have something else be true, and just pretend nothing happened.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
Sabotage! wrote: He is also correct with a company not owing you anything because you wanted it, and about the deleting of comments.
Why do people keep bringing up entitlement? Yes, at the most fundamental level, the only thing a company "owes" you is to deliver a functional product you've paid for, and that's it.
But if they want to sell me a product, they should have it available.
If they want to sell me a product in the future, they should let me know that and when it will be available.
If they want to ensure I'm confused as to whether I'll be able to buy a product, and prefer if I take my money elsewhere (not out of spite, but merely because they don't offer the thing I would have paid them for), then telling me I can buy a product, subsequently not having the product and afterwards being silent about whether I can buy the product later (just a paragraph on WarCom/in a newsletter will do), well, that'd be the perfect strategy.
This is not information that should only be available via someone on a forum who follows a store on social media who happens to have this information or whatever.
Don't care about an apology, would be interested in the "why?" (both as a customer and just out of curiosity), but it's very much in their own best interests to at least offer the "what?".
Although if they want future statements to be somewhat trustworthy, something about the "why" also very much helps. Otherwise, the impression is just that they can apparently just change their minds on a whim. Fine for Quest; not ideal for convincing people to invest in products whose attractiveness relies on long-term support, like most of their other products.
I imagine he is bringing up entitlement because on various facets of the internet (Facebook is a great example) there were people throwing petulant tantrums about it. And I'm not meaning "I'm pretty unhappy that your product is not available to me 20 minutes after it went on sale."
And you are correct that they should really make a Warcom post about what happened. I don't even feel they need to get into specifics. Just notify people about what is going on, so that they can plan accordingly. It's also a lot more respectful of your fan base to be transparent with them why you told them one thing and then something entirely different later (and that only through sales reps who were contacted after the fact).
I think a lot of people are taking this whole thing too seriously. On the other hand, I will say it has definitely made me feel better about my decision to use the money I had set aside for Cursed City to buy products from smaller companies, who have much better communication and relationships with their fan base. I still buy Underworlds from GW because I love the game, and I bought the new Blood Bowl Rulebook and Necromantic team from GW last year, but a lot of their practices just don't sit well with me......and as such most of my hobby money goes towards other companies.
Billicus wrote: If I were a shareholder I'd want to know what the feth happened. Let alone it being right (and only sensible) to tell customers what's going on too.
Things going wrong - fine. Oh there’ll be those determined to use it to paint GW as EvilBadWrong, but then there always is.
Giving Highly Mixed Messages - not fine. At all.
It's all it would take for you or I to be happy - a clear "it won't be available again" or "it might be available in the future". But we would still have this thread with different people demanding to know why, and what changed since the initial statement, and speculating over copyright infringement, Brexit, ERP and all sorts. GW could make us happy easily enough, but it wouldn't stop the complaining. And every statement they made would be further grist to the mill of those looking to whack GW around the head at every opportunity. I mean there are literally people that seem to make a living running YouTube channels that exist solely to explain why GW sucks on a twice-weekly basis.
So when you're operating in an environment like that - where you have rabid fans and equally rabid detractors, a lot of the usual rules for how you do business, and how you communicate with customers (or indeed, non-customers with a grudge) change. Just simply providing an honest, rational explanation often isn't the best solution.
That's not to say GW have it spot on, or that they've found the right balance. I sort of err towards thinking they're being a bit over-cautious on what they're saying in this case. Just that the comparisons with what a "normal" company would do are not necessarily useful.
and there are 3 times as many channels that make a living by telling us how awesome everything is (and I don't follow anyone anymore who mainly has GW focused content)
friend asked today in the local GW store about it and was told that it was always planned as a one time only limited release but the PR guy misunderstood it and therefore advertised it the wrong way
H.B.M.C. wrote: I mean, when the PS5 ran out no one thought "OMG! Does that mean I missed out? .
A LOT of people have been saying that, especially since it's been nearly 6 months and they're still only dropping maybe a couple 100 units each shipment. They're doing better than GW, but Sony can't keep up with demand either and there's still a ton of people worried they won't get one for a very long time.
friend asked today in the local GW store about it and was told that it was always planned as a one time only limited release but the PR guy misunderstood it and therefore advertised it the wrong way
Makes sense he deleted his comment about it, then.
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Billicus wrote: If I were a shareholder I'd want to know what the feth happened. Let alone it being right (and only sensible) to tell customers what's going on too.
I'm pretty sure shareholders get communication about it...when the opportunity is there to do so.
About customers...unless you contact their shops or customer service, the only other thing left to do is, like I said, wait and see. That's only we can do at this point.
Billicus wrote: Nope, if shareholders knew anything more than we did, we'd also know it by now. It does NOT take much to be a GW shareholder.
That's why I added "when the opportunity is there to do so".
I don't know how companies send communication to their shareholders, that's not my job, but I guess that kind of communication needs a bit of planning and preparation - and it's certainly not made in a rush to cater to an unknown number of people throwing tantrum on the internet.
And I'm not sure most of the shareholders are particularly concerned about the availability of one product, anyway. Especially when it's not their core games.
The vast majority of shareholders don’t care that or even know that a specialist product for the form was messed up.
Most share holders don’t know they have shares, they will be bought as part of pension or investment funds.
And that’s what AGMs for for, and any share holder can ask the questions there. They would never pit in an EGM for a balls up around a niche sideline product like this.
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H.B.M.C. wrote: Wanting to know whether a highly popular box is coming back/will get expansions is "entitlement" now.
Ok. Sure.
No but demanding that a company goes out of its way to explain everything to you about a niche product release going tits up is. If it was just wanting to know if the box was coming back it would not be 6 pages of rage. Believing you are ENTITLED to anything more than GW have given you is definitely ENTITLEMENT.
Have you thought, maybe GW don’t know if it will come back or not?
lord_blackfang wrote:Guys it's now been literally 6 pages of just bickering whether GW owes you an apology or not.
no, it is about why nu-GW now thinks that the way old-GW handled stuff was better
I hardly think that's a distinction worthy of pages of debate.
In the history of "Is GW evil" discussions, which have occurred more or less since GW fully launched it's vertically integrated games, this has to be among the dumbest. It's painfully obvious with even a quick glance that GW meant this to be a regular stock item, but something has happened which may prevent that. They have since retracted their social media messages stating that, but haven't made any official announcement about why. They have said that, as it stands,it might not reappear.
So, that leads us to wonder, what caused the change in plans? And why would GW not be transparent about that? the cynics might say "haha, see, GW is still opaque and evil and haven't change," and no doubt be thrilled that their distaste for a multinational corporation has been validated. To them, i say, enjoy your moment. You've cracked the code that a publicly traded company doesn't always treat it's customers well.
Me, personally? there's a copy at my FLGS, I could buy it today. I have plenty of solo games, so I'm not sure I need to jump in, despite FOMO. Further, I know that companies, even GW, have reasons for their actions. If they aren't communicating better about this, that means they are probably trying to hide something. Not necessarily something sinister, but I'm curious if they don't want to tip their hands about which vendors/contractors are having the problems. Or maybe the issue is internal. Or maybe they're still arguing about if they want to push it back into production.
Shareholders generally find out stuff like this the same way the general public do, until a couple of key points throughout the year such as general meetings or the release of the annual earnings reports etc.
Plainly wasn't talking about people who are only invested passively through funds, that would be stupid.
A simple "This is gone and it's not coming back" or "We will announce something soon watch this space" isn't "going out of their way to explain everything to you" lol that's equally stupid
yukishiro1 wrote: GW doesn't like to explain, and it doesn't like to apologize. GW thinks "communication" means constantly bombarding the marks err customers with social-media style advertising "content." When things go wrong, radio silence is the preferred go-to, and when they go so wrong that isn't an option any more, they issue some kind of statement that is always very careful not to acknowledge it was their screw-up, and presenting whatever they're going to do about it as some big favor to everybody. People only think it's better than the Kirby era because back then they didn't even do the social media advertising err "engagement."
It's interesting, it's honestly rare to see a company so unwilling to hold up its hands when it screws up. Even their FAQs and errata never apologize or admit they got something wrong, no matter how badly they screw something up. Who can forget the Iron Hands nerf, where they so memorably let drop that they had been warned by the playtesting team what a fiasco they were creating, but decided to go ahead anyway because <reasons>, and then presented the fact that they were fixing what should never have been released in the first place as some sort of big gift to the community?
TBH, between GWs approach to communication and the shift towards FOMO releases, etc. since Kirby left, plus the high street "Warhammer Store" rebranding,etc. I am absolutely convinced that GW hired McKinsey & Co. to consult for them.
If I were a shareholder I'd want to know what the feth happened. Let alone it being right (and only sensible) to tell customers what's going on too.
I am a shareholder, and I absolutely do want to know what the feth happened. My investment no longer feels safe and I'm seriously considering selling out my holdings. With rumors swirling of production issues, ERP failures, etc. it sounds like theres a lot of potential for things to go very wrong for the company over the next few years. As a shareholder I do feel GW has a fiduciary duty to explain themselves to me and assure me that they have a grip on the situation.
chaos0xomega wrote: I am a shareholder, and I absolutely do want to know what the feth happened. My investment no longer feels safe and I'm seriously considering selling out my holdings. With rumors swirling of production issues, ERP failures, etc. it sounds like theres a lot of potential for things to go very wrong for the company over the next few years. As a shareholder I do feel GW has a fiduciary duty to explain themselves to me and assure me that they have a grip on the situation.
Reach out to the Investor Relations Team and they'll let you know what they can.
If you're not an investor / shareholder you can use the Complaints Form to let GW know how you feel.
I hardly think that's a distinction worthy of pages of debate.
In the history of "Is GW evil" discussions, which have occurred more or less since GW fully launched it's vertically integrated games, this has to be among the dumbest. It's painfully obvious with even a quick glance that GW meant this to be a regular stock item, but something has happened which may prevent that
yet we have some that say it is not and the Twitter guy getting it wrong is more realisttic and GW changing their plans 1 day after release
thats why there are so many pages, for some it is obvious that something happend and GW does not want to tell, for others this is a very normal thing everyone else would do during corona and brexit
Platuan4th wrote: A LOT of people have been saying that, especially since it's been nearly 6 months and they're still only dropping maybe a couple 100 units each shipment. They're doing better than GW, but Sony can't keep up with demand either and there's still a ton of people worried they won't get one for a very long time.
That's not even slightly the same thing. Sony is still making PS5s and is unable to meet demand. They didn't just sell out and then go radio silent on whether there would ever be another PS5 made.
So how is that at all similar to what happened with Cursed City?
Platuan4th wrote: A LOT of people have been saying that, especially since it's been nearly 6 months and they're still only dropping maybe a couple 100 units each shipment. They're doing better than GW, but Sony can't keep up with demand either and there's still a ton of people worried they won't get one for a very long time.
That's not even slightly the same thing. Sony is still making PS5s and is unable to meet demand. How is that at all similar to what happened with Cursed City?
And for one, Sony actually acknowledged PS5 sold out and didn't pretend PS5 doesn't exist.
yukishiro1 wrote: GW doesn't like to explain, and it doesn't like to apologize. GW thinks "communication" means constantly bombarding the marks err customers with social-media style advertising "content." When things go wrong, radio silence is the preferred go-to, and when they go so wrong that isn't an option any more, they issue some kind of statement that is always very careful not to acknowledge it was their screw-up, and presenting whatever they're going to do about it as some big favor to everybody. People only think it's better than the Kirby era because back then they didn't even do the social media advertising err "engagement."
It's interesting, it's honestly rare to see a company so unwilling to hold up its hands when it screws up. Even their FAQs and errata never apologize or admit they got something wrong, no matter how badly they screw something up. Who can forget the Iron Hands nerf, where they so memorably let drop that they had been warned by the playtesting team what a fiasco they were creating, but decided to go ahead anyway because <reasons>, and then presented the fact that they were fixing what should never have been released in the first place as some sort of big gift to the community?
They've been like that (or much worse than that) for decades. Why would anyone expect anything different now? All the moaning, wailing and gnashing of teeth will make no difference to them whatsoever. And it won't make any difference to the future (non?) availability of Cursed City.
They are what they are and it makes life easier if you just learn to deal with it. If the way you choose to deal with it is to avoid buying their stuff then so be it, but you really don't need to try and convince everyone else to do the same.
So what, because they have sucked before we should just eat gak now and not complain? Jeeze, GW did something that upset a lot of people in a big way. Let them be upset without trying to tell them they are wrong, at least GW isn't doing that.
Of course this is also not an analogous case as it is a different circumstance anyways, but one fallacy at a time...
Things going wrong - fine. Oh there’ll be those determined to use it to paint GW as EvilBadWrong, but then there always is.
Giving Highly Mixed Messages - not fine. At all.
It's all it would take for you or I to be happy - a clear "it won't be available again" or "it might be available in the future". But we would still have this thread with different people demanding to know why, and what changed since the initial statement, and speculating over copyright infringement, Brexit, ERP and all sorts. GW could make us happy easily enough, but it wouldn't stop the complaining. And every statement they made would be further grist to the mill of those looking to whack GW around the head at every opportunity. I mean there are literally people that seem to make a living running YouTube channels that exist solely to explain why GW sucks on a twice-weekly basis.
So when you're operating in an environment like that - where you have rabid fans and equally rabid detractors, a lot of the usual rules for how you do business, and how you communicate with customers (or indeed, non-customers with a grudge) change. Just simply providing an honest, rational explanation often isn't the best solution.
That's not to say GW have it spot on, or that they've found the right balance. I sort of err towards thinking they're being a bit over-cautious on what they're saying in this case. Just that the comparisons with what a "normal" company would do are not necessarily useful.
Complaining is not binary. It does not exist or not exist and that is it. The severity matters. Actually, the severity is the only thing that matters since someone will always complain about anything. It continually floors me how many humans choose not to understand such a fundamentally basic concept as nuance.
yukishiro1 wrote: GW doesn't like to explain, and it doesn't like to apologize. GW thinks "communication" means constantly bombarding the marks err customers with social-media style advertising "content." When things go wrong, radio silence is the preferred go-to, and when they go so wrong that isn't an option any more, they issue some kind of statement that is always very careful not to acknowledge it was their screw-up, and presenting whatever they're going to do about it as some big favor to everybody. People only think it's better than the Kirby era because back then they didn't even do the social media advertising err "engagement."
It's interesting, it's honestly rare to see a company so unwilling to hold up its hands when it screws up. Even their FAQs and errata never apologize or admit they got something wrong, no matter how badly they screw something up. Who can forget the Iron Hands nerf, where they so memorably let drop that they had been warned by the playtesting team what a fiasco they were creating, but decided to go ahead anyway because <reasons>, and then presented the fact that they were fixing what should never have been released in the first place as some sort of big gift to the community?
They've been like that (or much worse than that) for decades. Why would anyone expect anything different now? All the moaning, wailing and gnashing of teeth will make no difference to them whatsoever. And it won't make any difference to the future (non?) availability of Cursed City.
They are what they are and it makes life easier if you just learn to deal with it. If the way you choose to deal with it is to avoid buying their stuff then so be it, but you really don't need to try and convince everyone else to do the same.
I think that's probably what stands out though. Over recent years GW has been much more cognisant of customer relations, good communications, social media etc.
If you were talking about the GW of 2008 or something, under Kirby, I would have agreed with you. But, what makes this stand out is that's not very common these days, and especially for such a high profile release.
NinthMusketeer wrote: So what, because they have sucked before we should just eat gak now and not complain? Jeeze, GW did something that upset a lot of people in a big way. Let them be upset without trying to tell them they are wrong, at least GW isn't doing that..
I'm not actually saying people are wrong to complain, I'm just saying that they're wasting their time.
And many of them are making themselves look like petulant children. It's been real toys out the pram time here recently.
NinthMusketeer wrote: So what, because they have sucked before we should just eat gak now and not complain? Jeeze, GW did something that upset a lot of people in a big way. Let them be upset without trying to tell them they are wrong, at least GW isn't doing that..
I'm not actually saying people are wrong to complain, I'm just saying that they're wasting their time.
And many of them are making themselves look like petulant children. It's been real toys out the pram time here recently.
Even more wasting their time if they do it here, the place where GWdefinitely doesn't come to hear their complaints.
The reason they come here is to let off some steam and/or gloat about how evil GW is. And you know perfectly guys like H.B.M.C and Kodos aren't really interested into anything else than free GW bashing. That's why they say they don't understand - they don't seek understanding, they want their points of view validated.
Kind of bizarre that people expect a reasonably large multi-national to lay bare their weaknesses and mistakes in detail for their competitors to potentially pore over. Seems like that could open them up to accusations of some sort of malfeasance there.
NinthMusketeer wrote: So what, because they have sucked before we should just eat gak now and not complain? Jeeze, GW did something that upset a lot of people in a big way. Let them be upset without trying to tell them they are wrong, at least GW isn't doing that..
I'm not actually saying people are wrong to complain, I'm just saying that they're wasting their time.
And many of them are making themselves look like petulant children. It's been real toys out the pram time here recently.
Even more wasting their time if they do it here, the place where GWdefinitely doesn't come to hear their complaints.
The reason they come here is to let off some steam and/or gloat about how evil GW is. And you know perfectly guys like H.B.M.C and Kodos aren't really interested into anything else than free GW bashing. That's why they say they don't understand - they don't seek understanding, they want their points of view validated.
Good Point. This whole thread is just about complainers wanting validation. Utterly pointless. If they were that bothered about rectifying the issue they wouldn’t be on here moaning and saying I told you so.
JWBS wrote: Kind of bizarre that people expect a reasonably large multi-national to lay bare their weaknesses and mistakes in detail for their competitors to potentially pore over. Seems like that could open them up to accusations of some sort of malfeasance there.
Nah, it has nothing to do with it. It's all about to spite their customers, obviously.
NinthMusketeer wrote: So what, because they have sucked before we should just eat gak now and not complain? Jeeze, GW did something that upset a lot of people in a big way. Let them be upset without trying to tell them they are wrong, at least GW isn't doing that..
I'm not actually saying people are wrong to complain, I'm just saying that they're wasting their time.
And many of them are making themselves look like petulant children. It's been real toys out the pram time here recently.
Even more wasting their time if they do it here, the place where GWdefinitely doesn't come to hear their complaints.
The reason they come here is to let off some steam and/or gloat about how evil GW is. And you know perfectly guys like H.B.M.C and Kodos aren't really interested into anything else than free GW bashing. That's why they say they don't understand - they don't seek understanding, they want their points of view validated.
Good Point. This whole thread is just about complainers wanting validation. Utterly pointless. If they were that bothered about rectifying the issue they wouldn’t be on here moaning and saying I told you so.
Not only do you totally lack comprehension of what is going on in this discussion, you are bragging about your complete lack of comprehension to boot.
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Sarouan wrote: Even more wasting their time if they do it here, the place where GWdefinitely doesn't come to hear their complaints.
GW has explicitly stated in the past few years that they do have people read forums to collect feedback. So yes, GW does come here to read complaints.
JWBS wrote: Kind of bizarre that people expect a reasonably large multi-national to lay bare their weaknesses and mistakes in detail for their competitors to potentially pore over. Seems like that could open them up to accusations of some sort of malfeasance there.
so Sony and Nintendo are some small european companies operating a niche market in the toy sector with their consoles without any competition, therefore they can do those things,
while GW is a large multi-national company that cannot do it because their competitors will use their weakness to pore over?
I think you don't know what a large multi-national company is or what the market situation for GW looks like
Sarouan wrote: And you know perfectly guys like H.B.M.C and Kodos aren't really interested into anything else than free GW bashing.
Well, H.B.M.C at least buys their terrain and floor tiles. En masse. And as an Australian a certain degree of GW bashing should be allowed per se.
Australians who complain about the prices every release and then buy them anyway should be banned from bashing GWtbh.
Not literally of course, but when half of all complaints come from Down Under and none seems to actually realise why it keeps happening (hint, it's not because none is buying GW stuff there) I almost want to rip my hair out.
If you don't need the miniatures, the ebay scalpers are selling off the main game components for a reasonable price. The local GW/independent stores are all completely sold out, which is probably for the best since I now have the complete game minus miniatures coming for 1/3 the retail price. I already have enough minis in my collection to stand in for most heroes and monsters.
JWBS wrote: Kind of bizarre that people expect a reasonably large multi-national to lay bare their weaknesses and mistakes in detail for their competitors to potentially pore over. Seems like that could open them up to accusations of some sort of malfeasance there.
so Sony and Nintendo are some small european companies operating a niche market in the toy sector with their consoles without any competition, therefore they can do those things,
while GW is a large multi-national company that cannot do it because their competitors will use their weakness to pore over?
I think you don't know what a large multi-national company is or what the market situation for GW looks like
A multi-national is a company operating in several countries, pretty basic stuff. You missed "reasonably" when you paraphrased what I said, I'll assume it's that's because you're a bit dense, and this wasn't deliberate misrepresentation. If you think that Sony and Nintendo are laying bare their mistakes and weaknesses in detail for their competitors to use, which I assume you do, since you referenced them, I'd say that's probably a mistake too (but I personally doubt that they are).
it is more about the "large"
GW is not "large" nor is there any competition that would take over
also Sony and Nintendo said that they made mistakes, not in detail, just that they did something wrong and are now trying to get back on track and solve their problems
yet you claim that GW cannot do it and must hide this things because they are "large" and therefore vulnerable
what exactly is preventing GW from saying:
"we miscalculated the demand of the box and because of current situation with CoV19 are not able to produce more in the next months" additional Option A: "we try to make new boxes as soon as the situation get back to normal" Option B: "because of that we decided to make this a one time release and produce only the models in future"
instead of "ask your local store if they have something left, we don't know what will happen in future"
Sarouan wrote: And you know perfectly guys like H.B.M.C and Kodos aren't really interested into anything else than free GW bashing.
Well, H.B.M.C at least buys their terrain and floor tiles. En masse. And as an Australian a certain degree of GW bashing should be allowed per se.
Australians who complain about the prices every release and then buy them anyway should be banned from bashing GWtbh.
Not literally of course, but when half of all complaints come from Down Under and none seems to actually realise why it keeps happening (hint, it's not because none is buying GW stuff there) I almost want to rip my hair out.
Tearing your hair out over something that isn't even true seems a bit excessive.
Why gw don’t make more of these I simply cannot fathom.
And for the fanbois raging about entitlement and so on, gw is not your friend.
As for this entitlement, gw can either apologise, explain themselves, and repair reputation OR suffer the loss of reputation, which in gw’s case means continue to reinforce their old reputation which was bad, frankly.
yukishiro1 wrote: GW doesn't like to explain, and it doesn't like to apologize. GW thinks "communication" means constantly bombarding the marks err customers with social-media style advertising "content." When things go wrong, radio silence is the preferred go-to, and when they go so wrong that isn't an option any more, they issue some kind of statement that is always very careful not to acknowledge it was their screw-up, and presenting whatever they're going to do about it as some big favor to everybody. People only think it's better than the Kirby era because back then they didn't even do the social media advertising err "engagement."
It's interesting, it's honestly rare to see a company so unwilling to hold up its hands when it screws up. Even their FAQs and errata never apologize or admit they got something wrong, no matter how badly they screw something up. Who can forget the Iron Hands nerf, where they so memorably let drop that they had been warned by the playtesting team what a fiasco they were creating, but decided to go ahead anyway because <reasons>, and then presented the fact that they were fixing what should never have been released in the first place as some sort of big gift to the community?
They've been like that (or much worse than that) for decades. Why would anyone expect anything different now? All the moaning, wailing and gnashing of teeth will make no difference to them whatsoever. And it won't make any difference to the future (non?) availability of Cursed City.
They are what they are and it makes life easier if you just learn to deal with it. If the way you choose to deal with it is to avoid buying their stuff then so be it, but you really don't need to try and convince everyone else to do the same.
I don't think you actually read my post...
But supposing that someone else did want to try to convince other people not to buy GW products, why would you care? Let people be upset about it if they are, it's no skin off your back and it's the least you can do given how much GW has dropped the ball on this. Blaming people for being upset about getting screwed seems like directing your ire to the wrong place. If you're tired of reading about people mad about GW being GW, just don't read it any more? Nobody's forcing you to. The only thing that's surely a bigger waste of time than complaining on the internet is complaining on the internet about other people complaining on the internet.
Scalpers are charging some £150-200 for it now. With prices expected to rise to silly levels if other things are considered (High elf dragon mage or sky cutter for example).
I dont know if it will be reprinted or not.
But boy oh boy would I feel silly if I paid £250 for a £90 game that will ultimately just sit on my mountain of stuff and it gets another print in 6 months time..
If I were a shareholder I'd want to know what the feth happened. Let alone it being right (and only sensible) to tell customers what's going on too.
I am a shareholder, and I absolutely do want to know what the feth happened. My investment no longer feels safe and I'm seriously considering selling out my holdings. With rumors swirling of production issues, ERP failures, etc. it sounds like theres a lot of potential for things to go very wrong for the company over the next few years. As a shareholder I do feel GW has a fiduciary duty to explain themselves to me and assure me that they have a grip on the situation.
Ditto, though I can’t say my investment no longer feels safe. Looking at the last report sent it’s never a better time.
As a GW fan, yes I look at rumour and all these things as to my enjoyment over the next few years.
As a shareholder, I won’t look at rumours like this to decide anything over the next few years. I’d look at a first bit of truth/fact that comes out as points of issue, but even then, you’d sell before waiting a few years if that much of a worry.
Sarouan wrote: And you know perfectly guys like H.B.M.C and Kodos aren't really interested into anything else than free GW bashing.
Bereft of an actual point - or, rather, demonstrating time and time again that you just don't get why people are mad - you've decided to just come after me directly.
NinthMusketeer wrote: So what, because they have sucked before we should just eat gak now and not complain? Jeeze, GW did something that upset a lot of people in a big way. Let them be upset without trying to tell them they are wrong, at least GW isn't doing that..
I'm not actually saying people are wrong to complain, I'm just saying that they're wasting their time.
And many of them are making themselves look like petulant children. It's been real toys out the pram time here recently.
Even more wasting their time if they do it here, the place where GWdefinitely doesn't come to hear their complaints.
The reason they come here is to let off some steam and/or gloat about how evil GW is. And you know perfectly guys like H.B.M.C and Kodos aren't really interested into anything else than free GW bashing. That's why they say they don't understand - they don't seek understanding, they want their points of view validated.
While it is reasonable to be unhappy with the way GW handled the Indomitus launch(at least at first), and this game, in the end, we lost nothing except an opportunity to give them money. While it would be nice to get some better word, not being able to give them money isn't a legal injury suffered by us, since we had no stake beyond wanting something that isn't available.
So while they handled it poorly, and I was very harsh on them on the Indomitus debacle, in particular, criticizing them for being jerks still doesn't convey any obligation on them to say or do anything about it. No doubt they are suffering more ill will over this. But that is their choice. They don't owe us anything. They should say something, though.
NinthMusketeer wrote: So what, because they have sucked before we should just eat gak now and not complain? Jeeze, GW did something that upset a lot of people in a big way. Let them be upset without trying to tell them they are wrong, at least GW isn't doing that..
I'm not actually saying people are wrong to complain, I'm just saying that they're wasting their time.
And many of them are making themselves look like petulant children. It's been real toys out the pram time here recently.
Even more wasting their time if they do it here, the place where GWdefinitely doesn't come to hear their complaints.
The reason they come here is to let off some steam and/or gloat about how evil GW is. And you know perfectly guys like H.B.M.C and Kodos aren't really interested into anything else than free GW bashing. That's why they say they don't understand - they don't seek understanding, they want their points of view validated.
So they're not allowed to email GW their frustrations and vent their frustrations here? Didn't realize we were all relegated to one single task. Like, I NEVER email GW problems with their rules and come here to bash them. I can only pick one each day!
H.B.M.C. wrote: Bereft of an actual point - or, rather, demonstrating time and time again that you just don't get why people are mad - you've decided to just come after me directly.
Good to know...
by his arguments he could be as well the GW-Social Media guy trying to keep things in line
and in none of his posts he get on the arguments that are discussed but replied with whataboutism or arguments no one was talking about
So they're not allowed to email GW their frustrations and vent their frustrations here? Didn't realize we were all relegated to one single task. Like, I NEVER email GW problems with their rules and come here to bash them. I can only pick one each day!
His point is that you have to be quiet about it
GW does not make mistakes, and if they do you have to email them and say to no one else so that they can hide it before anyone else notice
Because the last thing GW needs is bad PR and we as a costumer have a responsibility to make sure that there is none
so please stop spreading that GW made a mistakes, if someone ask about just say that GW handled it the same way as Sony is handling the unavailability of the PS5 (you know, remove all evidence that it will be available so new costumers are not confused and could think that it was already released) and email them that they need to cover it up better as people start to notice there is something wrong
God forbid people on a games forum care about whether or not they can get hold of games they want! God forbid they care if a company love bombs them with promotion for a cool game only to make it unavailable at the last minute and then refuse to explain why!
Basically just the fallacy of relative privation, not big or clever
Billicus wrote: God forbid people on a games forum care about whether or not they can get hold of games they want! God forbid they care if a company love bombs them with promotion for a cool game only to make it unavailable at the last minute and then refuse to explain why!
Basically just the fallacy of relative privation, not big or clever
I think we all agree it sucks. It's obviously a bad beat.
I can't speak for everybody, but I'm just tired of every hiccup from GW turning into some intense relitigation about whether or not GW has "changed" followed by endless backseat management.
GW is a publicly traded multi-national: they don't care about you, they haven't for decades, and they won't again any time soon. We are all just profit centers to them. That said, they've clearly become more transparent than during the Kirby days, and are releasing both more varied and higher quality products. This need to continually figure out exactly how "bad" GW is just baffles me.
Billicus wrote: God forbid people on a games forum care about whether or not they can get hold of games they want! God forbid they care if a company love bombs them with promotion for a cool game only to make it unavailable at the last minute and then refuse to explain why!
Basically just the fallacy of relative privation, not big or clever
I think we all agree it sucks. It's obviously a bad beat.
I can't speak for everybody, but I'm just tired of every hiccup from GW turning into some intense relitigation about whether or not GW has "changed" followed by endless backseat management.
GW is a publicly traded multi-national: they don't care about you, they haven't for decades, and they won't again any time soon. We are all just profit centers to them. That said, they've clearly become more transparent than during the Kirby days, and are releasing both more varied and higher quality products. This need to continually figure out exactly how "bad" GW is just baffles me.
By "more varied and higher quality products" you mean nothing but a slew of overpriced monopose Primaris Verb-erators?
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: By "more varied and higher quality products" you mean nothing but a slew of overpriced monopose Primaris Verb-erators?
See, while I respect the commitment to the bit, and it's a fun gag, this is just another blind rhetorical alley. When my point is that people want to just rehash their grievances about GW, and you bring up Primaris and prices, you kind of prove my point.
I'm sure nobody will be surprised that Zatu have allegedly made a "stock error" regarding my order, and are holding on to my dosh for a bit while they check whether they have any spare copies of Cursed City behind the sofa.
Yeah they generally have a slightly dubious rep on the boardgame groups, but I suspect most of that's down to the size of their operation -- there's always going to be a few dissatisfied customers. Hasn't happened to me before but I guess I may be joining those ranks!
Overread wrote: Weren't Zatu the ones that put the price up by £60 taking it above RRP on orders they'd already taken and were paid for?
That was a magic the gathering seller. Zatu have some awful practices and price gorging but actually didn’t do that this time.
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Ian Sturrock wrote: I'm sure nobody will be surprised that Zatu have allegedly made a "stock error" regarding my order, and are holding on to my dosh for a bit while they check whether they have any spare copies of Cursed City behind the sofa.
I preordered a game expansion from them over a year ago for a really good price (took my money straight away), a few weeks before release they upped the preorder price substantially. They managed to fulfil the later higher priced orders but ran out of stock before they reached my preorder even though I ordered months earlier.
They have had two restocks since and both times they have fulfilled the even more expensive orders they have taken since the original release but not my lower priced preorder.
Only ever use them if they actually have the item in stock.
Billicus wrote: Generally only have good things to say about Zatu, sorry to hear they've mucked you about.
They seem to be the Wayland of boardgames - if it's showing in-stock you've got a good chance of getting it but any other status and you've got no chance.
Billicus wrote: Generally only have good things to say about Zatu, sorry to hear they've mucked you about.
They seem to be the Wayland of boardgames - if it's showing in-stock you've got a good chance of getting it but any other status and you've got no chance.
Finally, someone agrees with me about Wayland! I used them one time and every time I completed my order, "Oh, yeah, that's not in stock. Pick something else because we really really want your money still." After my third backup choice failing to be available when it was listed as "in-stock", I had them credit back my Visa card. And they gave me grief about it.
Billicus wrote: Generally only have good things to say about Zatu, sorry to hear they've mucked you about.
They seem to be the Wayland of boardgames - if it's showing in-stock you've got a good chance of getting it but any other status and you've got no chance.
Yeah this is definitely true. TBH, I rarely trust any of the big sites with back orders these days.
Billicus wrote: Generally only have good things to say about Zatu, sorry to hear they've mucked you about.
They seem to be the Wayland of boardgames - if it's showing in-stock you've got a good chance of getting it but any other status and you've got no chance.
Finally, someone agrees with me about Wayland! I used them one time and every time I completed my order, "Oh, yeah, that's not in stock. Pick something else because we really really want your money still." After my third backup choice failing to be available when it was listed as "in-stock", I had them credit back my Visa card. And they gave me grief about it.
Waylands new site (for a while now) has live stocking linked to their inventory so generally its pretty reliable. There was a time when it was rough boundaries and "in stock" mean in stock or something they could order in etc...
It's become a new standard in a lot of more niche hobbies - these internet shops that list everything under the sun with nebulous stock statuses to get you to order. When the reality is, they don't have it in stock, probably can't get it ever, but they're glad to take your money today. And fight you tooth and nail to keep it even when they can't deliver. I've seen this a lot with plastic models and hobby and toy items, particularly of Far Eastern origin.
It's not so much new, but I think the pandemic has stripped so much stock from big stores that more and more people are using smaller stores and "no name" stores and stores that they'd otherwise not use.
With the result that the dodgy ones become a bit more apparent!
Plus there's likely a few who are honestly having a hard time getting any stock in themselves, but really can't afford to be giving refunds with the pandemic.
I've known "bait and switch" stores to be a problem with photography and such for well over a decade. They'll also do the whole "its on stock but then its not" angle and will either try and make you buy something else; buy lots of "accessories" that inflate the price or straight out charge you more.
In general this kind of store always works the same; if you play their game and pay more they'll often send the item (sometimes slowly); if you don't play ball they'll just keep blocking you with "its not in stock today but it will be soon" type messages or just outright refuse the sale and refund you.
Others will fight tooth and nail to hold onto the cash in the hope that its small enough you won't go to court over it, but enough that if the ydo it enough they can earn a pretty penny not fulfilling orders. Most don't care because they'll operate under loads of different names.
In general its good to remember that Paypal and your bank will typically refund you pretty fast if contacted about a store that isn't honouring a refund request.
On and on and on, this thread is the Energizer Bunny of dumpster fires. It's a god given right to be an donkey-cave and boy are people using that right here
I was not interested in Cursed City, some sculpts were good but a lot was overbaked. However I found myself almost heading to my local GW to ask if there was one going to the shop so I didn't miss out.
Yes Cursed City was hyped, but it didn't get as much attention or desire as when people found out they could not get it. We know gougers will be top of the queue of those who want to get hold of a copy, but suddenly everyone else does too. This will help no one but the gougers.
I think there are frankly far better dungeonbashes on the market right now, genericity is key frankly. I think they got it right with Dungeon Saga, and there are several more well received titles.
I have received my box of rules and cardboard. I have read the thing. It's literally just AoS Co-op rules from White Dwarf with painfully long prep phase and post-game phases. That is beyond simplistic.
The setup kills momentum like crazy, and the "combat" is basic GW stuff, so also no. I can't tell you about debriefing phase in practice, the will to live departed the team before we finished the 1st Hunt. I used the term simplistic over simple for a reason. It does very little, but requires so many steps to get there. Sort of like taxes.
Rolsheen wrote: On and on and on, this thread is the Energizer Bunny of dumpster fires. It's a god given right to be an donkey-cave and boy are people using that right here
The subject prolly just attracts a certain type. I say that because like 40% of the people on my ignore list are liking this thread a lot - literally pages with five or six ignored people replying in a row A rare sight for me seeing as my list is only a dozen or so.
Naysayers be damned, I'm really enjoying the game. It's a damnable situation any expansions (likely already made) will be fought over to the extreme, but... like BSF the range of modes offers a lot of variety. Fingers crossed we get all kinds of undead and additional vampire enemy cards added to the game.
OK, trolling.
