Spoke with manager in my store.
They said that’s the line as currently the only place to get it, might be a store.
Not that it’s limited one run.
From everything he’s heard it’s like all other quests.
There's been this constant reassurance that "of course this will get expansions because Warhammer Quest always does" and I just don't see it - Blackstone Fortress did, yes, but before that Hammerhal got nothing and Silver Tower got a repack of a few existing models as heroes and a couple of card packs and that's it.
I am astounded by the demand for a game with such outdated, passive mechanics in a world where games like Gloomhaven exist. OO
Apart from the minis, which are excellent, the graphic design also looks lazy and cheap. Photos of miniatures instead of artwork, simple drawings etc. GW must have saved a lot of money on artists.
Cyel wrote: I am astounded by the demand for a game with such outdated, passive mechanics in a world where games like Gloomhaven exist. OO
Apart from the minis, which are excellent, the graphic design also looks lazy and cheap. Photos of miniatures instead of artwork, simple drawings etc. GW must have saved a lot of money on artists.
It's got Warhammer on the label and was hyped up by the company, that's enough for most people these days. If mechanics mattered to people- well, GW wouldn't be pulling in the money it does.
Cyel wrote: I am astounded by the demand for a game with such outdated, passive mechanics in a world where games like Gloomhaven exist. OO
Apart from the minis, which are excellent, the graphic design also looks lazy and cheap. Photos of miniatures instead of artwork, simple drawings etc. GW must have saved a lot of money on artists.
For some the underlined section is more than enough - they are really cool
Chess - Go - Monopoly - Snakes and Ladders - Redcoats/Bluecoats Cowboys/Indians and whatever kids are allowed to play vs each other today
I mean most of those games haven't have mechanical changes in years - some generations. Suffice to say you don't need the "latest mechanics" for things to be, well, fun. If anything sometimes new mechanics are just old ideas brought around again.
Not every product has to test the boundaries of the future.
No, but things do move forward in terms of game design.
It's why games like Infinity, when they first came along, really excited a lot of wargamers because they were doing something fresh and new, a development on what came before. And made a lot of the existing games look turgid by comparison.
Board games even more so, it might be that for people that have only ever played AoS this game will be absolutely wonderful, but for anyone that has chomped their way through Descent, Gloomhaven, or a multitude of other games find the meat and bones of the game is lacking. In fact, a lot of the (outside GW-centric) boardgame reviews have had that opinion of the other Warhammer Quest games released.
I'd genuinely be interested to see how these kinds of boxed games would do for GW if they made a version that was 'Models Only' and a version that was 'Boardgame with Models'.
It’s almost as if the Dungeon Spelunking market isn’t in fact a single amorphous blob with a one overriding preference of play style.
Remember, only mere months ago a Kickstarter for Heroquest, the most basic of all dungeon crawlers attracted, let’s see...$3,722,649 of worldwide sales.
Some might want Cursed City, others Gloomhaven, others still both, some neither, preferring another game altogether.
Pacific wrote: No, but things do move forward in terms of game design.
It's why games like Infinity, when they first came along, really excited a lot of wargamers because they were doing something fresh and new, a development on what came before. And made a lot of the existing games look turgid by comparison.
Board games even more so, it might be that for people that have only ever played AoS this game will be absolutely wonderful, but for anyone that has chomped their way through Descent, Gloomhaven, or a multitude of other games find the meat and bones of the game is lacking. In fact, a lot of the (outside GW-centric) boardgame reviews have had that opinion of the other Warhammer Quest games released.
Yet most people who have played the original Warhammer Quest from the mid-nineties keep wishing GW would release a game more like that. Even though it's almost 30 years old, and has some pretty huge problems, it's just a lot more fun. Not everyone thinks Gloomhaven is the best game. While it might have interesting mechanics, people that like the narrative/story aspect might find the card playing too much of an abstraction and too non-sensical.
Yet most people who have played the original Warhammer Quest from the mid-nineties keep wishing GW would release a game more like that.
It's called nostalgia, and it's why random reprints of products that were objectively kinda bad keep getting massive KS campaigns. Cause the 80s kids are now 40 and want that sweet sweet nostalgia kick.
I honestly wish these Warhammer Quest games actually played more like the original WHQ. Just the wacky stuff that would happen on your way back to town were half the fun.
Wow. Is this a cursed city thread or a 'Personal opinions about games = absolute truth and everything that isn't my favorite needs to get lambasted for daring to exist' thread?
Pacific wrote: No, but things do move forward in terms of game design.
It's why games like Infinity, when they first came along, really excited a lot of wargamers because they were doing something fresh and new, a development on what came before. And made a lot of the existing games look turgid by comparison.
Board games even more so, it might be that for people that have only ever played AoS this game will be absolutely wonderful, but for anyone that has chomped their way through Descent, Gloomhaven, or a multitude of other games find the meat and bones of the game is lacking. In fact, a lot of the (outside GW-centric) boardgame reviews have had that opinion of the other Warhammer Quest games released.
Yet most people who have played the original Warhammer Quest from the mid-nineties keep wishing GW would release a game more like that. Even though it's almost 30 years old, and has some pretty huge problems, it's just a lot more fun. Not everyone thinks Gloomhaven is the best game. While it might have interesting mechanics, people that like the narrative/story aspect might find the card playing too much of an abstraction and too non-sensical.
I agree with you. I had actually posted a few pages back that if the 90s Quest was available again tomorrow I would get it!
But it would be interesting to know how much of it would be enjoyment because of the enjoyment/casual factor, and enjoying the game despite the mechanics, rather than because of them. GWs games don't exist in a void (although it can sometimes appear that way). A compan that could design some genuinely groundbreaking games back in the day that still hold up well and have a massive active player community (Space Hulk, Blood Bowl etc.), should be able to do it again, and we should expect high gameplay standards from them, especially with the additional money and resources now available to them.
So I don't think there is anything wrong with expecting game mechanics that aren't crap and would stand up well to repeat gaming (which would be my main concern, rather than it being one specific type of game over another).
Yet most people who have played the original Warhammer Quest from the mid-nineties keep wishing GW would release a game more like that.
It's called nostalgia, and it's why random reprints of products that were objectively kinda bad keep getting massive KS campaigns. Cause the 80s kids are now 40 and want that sweet sweet nostalgia kick.
Yes, our rosy memories of feelings we had for something in the past aren't really objective information about this thing's actual quality. Especially if this thingg didn't have any kind of alternative back then.
Well, I ended up cancelling my preorder yesterday. I decided that I would get more play out of all the Underworlds stuff going up for preorder next week and the new Death Zone supplement (which has official printed Sevens rules!).
If it is a limited release that’s a bummer. I was able to preorder the mini I wanted most from the set (Witch Hunter) for 25 bucks. Which is a lot, but less than normal price for a GW character. All said everything will still cost me less than the game and will see more use on the tabletop than Cursed City. Hopefully my preorder goes to someone who really wants to play the game with their group.
Overread wrote: Chess - Go - Monopoly - Snakes and Ladders - Redcoats/Bluecoats Cowboys/Indians and whatever kids are allowed to play vs each other today
I mean most of those games haven't have mechanical changes in years - some generations. Suffice to say you don't need the "latest mechanics" for things to be, well, fun.
Are you saying anyone every considered Monopoly to be fun?
The only people I've ever met who propose playing it are people who've basically never played any other boardgame.
Admittedly, some similarities exist between that context and people who start wargaming via GW and then (sometimes) discover the wider world...
That's why I posted the Middara pics, as everything in the box (except the minis, I guess, being boardgame plastics) is higher quality than the stuff from BSF, which I also own.
Just had a butchers and Middara looks seriously sexy.
According to our experts on GW. Designing the models, making the plastic molds etc is costly and time consuming and releases are planned years in advance.
If this is the case, why does GW make products so limited? If some of these models don't make it as plastic only releases, it really makes the effort into all those models wasteful.
What is worse is that they've annoyed a lot of potential customers by not making enough of Cursed City... then, if an expansion comes out, I expect they won't make enough for all the people that were happy they got the main game, angering those previously happy customers who now miss out on expansions. Is this how nu-GW works now?
Gimgamgoo wrote: According to our experts on GW. Designing the models, making the plastic molds etc is costly and time consuming and releases are planned years in advance.
If this is the case, why does GW make products so limited? If some of these models don't make it as plastic only releases, it really makes the effort into all those models wasteful.
To create, publicize, produce and sell a product line and for it to return its initial investment, turn a massive profit, and then be moved to the side to create room for a new product is great for a business. GW is a publically traded company and needs to have a continually sustainable product line as well splash releases that contribute to the massive profits we have been seeing from the company year on year. A game like WQ will need to be ordered in significantly larger batches for print runs than product lines done entirely in-house.
Gimgamgoo wrote: According to our experts on GW. Designing the models, making the plastic molds etc is costly and time consuming and releases are planned years in advance.
If this is the case, why does GW make products so limited? If some of these models don't make it as plastic only releases, it really makes the effort into all those models wasteful.
We know that GW have sold at least 5650 of them, since that's how many keys they did, so they've sold $1,130,000 USD worth of sets at a minimum at retail price, even at wholesale price probably more than half that.
Mould making is expensive, but I think people are using outdated info with their estimates, and since GW now do a lot more mould making in-house, it's no longer a cost-per-mould, it's a cost-per-year regardless of how many moulds are made (it doesn't save a huge amount of money to have the machines idle and machinists not working). That makes doing limited runs of plastic models a more viable option rather than needing to flog a mould for all it's worth.
Gimgamgoo wrote: According to our experts on GW. Designing the models, making the plastic molds etc is costly and time consuming and releases are planned years in advance.
If this is the case, why does GW make products so limited? If some of these models don't make it as plastic only releases, it really makes the effort into all those models wasteful.
I mean we all know that's all lies, right? By all logic it should be quick and cheap.
Shadows of Brimstone is the closest a game has felt to 90s Quest.
Considering the piles of expansions and supplemental material that's out there (not even including all the crazy fan made content), all you're basically missing is the IP.
Plus with the upcoming releases they'll have even more fantasy themes covered via the Norse Adventures.
There's also Darklight: Memento Mori which is made very much in the vein of 90s Quest, but it's a bit more challenging to get a hold of (especially with the exploration deck, which really adds to the atmosphere).
Considering the piles of expansions and supplemental material that's out there (not even including all the crazy fan made content), all you're basically missing is the IP.
Plus with the upcoming releases they'll have even more fantasy themes covered via the Norse Adventures.
There's also Darklight: Memento Mori which is made very much in the vein of 90s Quest, but it's a bit more challenging to get a hold of (especially with the exploration deck, which really adds to the atmosphere).
I was going to bring up Shadows of Brimstone. The fact that it has single-handedly kept Flying Frog Productions afloat as a company for the better part of the last decade is pretty good indication that there is a large demand for games in a similar vein to the original Warhammer Quest.
Cyel wrote: I am astounded by the demand for a game with such outdated, passive mechanics in a world where games like Gloomhaven exist. OO
Apart from the minis, which are excellent, the graphic design also looks lazy and cheap. Photos of miniatures instead of artwork, simple drawings etc. GW must have saved a lot of money on artists.
People who extol the virtues of 'advancements in game mechanics' rarely have any idea what they are actually talking about. It's rare for a particular mechanic to be objectively better or more fun than another, only newer. There can be differences in the ways that particular mechanics are implemented, leading to them working better or worse in a particular situation, but just because you don't enjoy the way a particular game mechanic works that doesn't mean it's 'bad'. Along with that, just because a mechanic is newer, that doesn't make it automatically 'better'.
As for Gloomhaven, it came out the year after Silver Tower. If Silver Tower's mechanics are 'outdated' then so are those in Gloomhaven.
Quasistellar wrote: people on these boards *always* underestimate the cost of board game carboard, cards, and dice.
These are more expensive to produce than people think. I'm not saying that this isn't expensive, but just check the prices of regular old board games with cardboard, cards, and wooden pieces, and dice. That stuff alone adds up.
Yes, let's!
Spoiler:
You can get all 3 in the series for less than Cursed City
Seriously? A WotC board game from 10 years ago? At least pick something that isn’t terrible component quality lol. Quantity != quality.
Anyway, I did say cursed city is expensive and won’t argue that. Too expensive, even. I didn’t buy it, but I might have if it cost the same as black stone fortress. Again, I’m just saying people underestimate the cost of basic good quality board game components and artwork.
I think it's odd that there are people saying "It's just nostalgia!" that makes us want things like Old Quest.
That might be true if it were just something in the past, something we look back on and think "Weren't things better back then?". Except there are a number of us here who aren't just looking back wistfully. Some of us actively play Old Quest to this day, with a large group, and love it to bits.
That's not nostalgia. That's genuine affection for a game that was, and still is, a fun and fantastic time.
Isn’t that partly about getting to hang out with old friends and enjoying reliving the good old days? The comfort and comradely derived from reliving a shared experience?
Like when we rewatch an old tv show or movie we can practically quote line for line. It helps sooth old neutrons. I’ve been playing some old Amiga games for the same reason; they are not ‘better’ than modern games, but no modern game carries with it that comforting familiarity from a time in my life when everything was simpler.
Or do you think 90s quest is objectively the pinnacle of a dungeon crawler?
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think it's odd that there are people saying "It's just nostalgia!" that makes us want things like Old Quest.
That might be true if it were just something in the past, something we look back on and think "Weren't things better back then?". Except there are a number of us here who aren't just looking back wistfully. Some of us actively play Old Quest to this day, with a large group, and love it to bits.
That's not nostalgia. That's genuine affection for a game that was, and still is, a fun and fantastic time.
It doesn't change the fact that your perception of it is colored by nostalgia.
People who extol the virtues of 'advancements in game mechanics' rarely have any idea what they are actually talking about. It's rare for a particular mechanic to be objectively better or more fun than another, only newer. There can be differences in the ways that particular mechanics are implemented, leading to them working better or worse in a particular situation, but just because you don't enjoy the way a particular game mechanic works that doesn't mean it's 'bad'. Along with that, just because a mechanic is newer, that doesn't make it automatically 'better'.
As for Gloomhaven, it came out the year after Silver Tower. If Silver Tower's mechanics are 'outdated' then so are those in Gloomhaven.
Subjectivity only goes so far when you try to learn about the world. Some people like being kicked in the balls but you wouldn't put being kicked in the balls in the same line as, for instance, playing the Witcher 3 when discussing good and bad entertainment.
Some mechanics are outdated and bad, because there are reasons for it. For example:
Rolling dice and comparing it with a table to see what happens is outdated and bad because
-outdated -it belongs in a museum, being a staple of games from almost half a century ago
-bad-it is non-interactive, involves no agency or decision-making, players are just bots that mindlessly push the game forward when it plays itself
Action cards in Gloomhaven are innovative and good
-innovative - choosing from a hand of actions cards and planning which ones to use and which actions on them to pair up, which also determines your initiative and is also your stamina pool is a pretty new concept
-good- there's a lot of decision-making ALL THE TIME. You plan tactically which cards to use to solve the current situation, but also strategically, which ones to save for later and how to optimise your moves, because the trickle of cards from your hand (which are also your stamina/HP pool for the adventure) determines how many turns you can play before you exhaust your cahracter. This level of agency and meaningful planning (which isn't arbitrarily cancelled by the game's randomness too) isn't something I have seen before in the dungeon crawling genre.
That's not to say that Gloomhaven doesn't have flaws. Upkeep and set up are very painful in this game too. But decisions are involving and interesting and player agency and choices form the basis of gameplay instead of being an afterthought when the game plays itself on random rails, with players being just the drudges pushing it, because someone has to operate the engine manually (most GW games, Monopoly etc).
If I sit down to watch a film because I remember it from childhood (such as Caravan of Courage), that is nostalgia driving my decision.
If I enjoy watching it (Caravan of Courage again), that’s not nostalgia.
Example. I loved M.A.S.K. as a kid. Toys were great, and I fondly remembered the cartoon as being pretty excellent. But when I watched it again as an adult? The cartoon was shown to be awful, and I can’t bring myself to watch it again. The toys are still great though.
People who extol the virtues of 'advancements in game mechanics' rarely have any idea what they are actually talking about. It's rare for a particular mechanic to be objectively better or more fun than another, only newer. There can be differences in the ways that particular mechanics are implemented, leading to them working better or worse in a particular situation, but just because you don't enjoy the way a particular game mechanic works that doesn't mean it's 'bad'. Along with that, just because a mechanic is newer, that doesn't make it automatically 'better'.
As for Gloomhaven, it came out the year after Silver Tower. If Silver Tower's mechanics are 'outdated' then so are those in Gloomhaven.
Subjectivity only goes so far when you try to learn about the world. Some people like being kicked in the balls but you wouldn't put being kicked in the balls in the same line as, for instance, playing the Witcher 3 when discussing good and bad entertainment.
Some mechanics are outdated and bad, because there are reasons for it. For example:
Rolling dice and comparing it with a table to see what happens is outdated and bad because
-outdated -it belongs in a museum, being a staple of games from almost half a century ago
-bad-it is non-interactive, involves no agency or decision-making, players are just bots that mindlessly push the game forward when it plays itself
Action cards in Gloomhaven are innovative and good
-innovative - choosing from a hand of actions cards and planning which ones to use and which actions on them to pair up, which also determines your initiative and is also your stamina pool is a pretty new concept
-good- there's a lot of decision-making ALL THE TIME. You plan tactically which cards to use to solve the current situation, but also strategically, which ones to save for later and how to optimise your moves, because the trickle of cards from your hand (which are also your stamina/HP pool for the adventure) determines how many turns you can play before you exhaust your cahracter. This level of agency and meaningful planning (which isn't arbitrarily cancelled by the game's randomness too) isn't something I have seen before in the dungeon crawling genre.
That's not to say that Gloomhaven doesn't have flaws. Upkeep and set up are very painful in this game too. But decisions are involving and interesting and player agency and choices form the basis of gameplay instead of being an afterthought when the game plays itself on random rails, with players being just the drudges pushing it, because someone has to operate the engine manually (most GW games, Monopoly etc).
So by all means. Don’t play it.
But please, do not confuse your preference of game play as some kind of universal opinion. Because you can only speak for you. And that opinion has no bearing on me, or the wider market.
Well, Gloomhaven is number 1 board game on BGG, Blackstone Fortress 1384 and Silver Tower 1771 so I wouldn't say the wider market doesn't care about the quality of the rules.
Of course buying and playing are two different things too! I am quite sure that many players buy GW games not to play them and as a result don't rate their quality rules-wise, but still enjoy them as collectors/painters.
Also people often have limited reference points. Like has already been said in this topic, players who want to play Monopoly in most cases don't know board games with modern design exist and would probably have their minds blown away by, say, Brass or Food Chain Magnate and never want to waste their time with Monopoly again (and if someone says that you cannot claim Monopoly is an objectively bad game, I will lose all faith in people's ability to judge game design )
Gloomhaven is also (clearly) much better at appealing to board game fans that do things like rate games on boardgamegeek... I expect a large proportion of the Cursed City market have never even heard of it. All the BGG rankings mean is that that game is popular with BGG visitors.
Cronch wrote: It doesn't change the fact that your perception of it is colored by nostalgia.
No it's not.
"You only like it because of nostalgia!" is a weird line to take. I like it because I like it, not because of some half-remembered perception from the days of yore.
I mean, you're not exactly wrong, but given the amount of errors, backtracks and stupid minutia, I can't say I'd call N17 good.
Maybe more of a good idea than a good game.
OTOH, Battletech is a fairly antiquated for watever possible metrics... but I would actually call it a good game, because it is very tight. It works, the rules are very clear, interactions between rules are usually very well defined... that kinda stuff.
Rolling dice and comparing it with a table to see what happens is outdated and bad because
-outdated -it belongs in a museum, being a staple of games from almost half a century ago
-bad-it is non-interactive, involves no agency or decision-making, players are just bots that mindlessly push the game forward when it plays itself
Action cards in Gloomhaven are innovative and good
-innovative - choosing from a hand of actions cards and planning which ones to use and which actions on them to pair up, which also determines your initiative and is also your stamina pool is a pretty new concept
-good- there's a lot of decision-making ALL THE TIME. You plan tactically which cards to use to solve the current situation, but also strategically, which ones to save for later and how to optimise your moves, because the trickle of cards from your hand (which are also your stamina/HP pool for the adventure) determines how many turns you can play before you exhaust your cahracter. This level of agency and meaningful planning (which isn't arbitrarily cancelled by the game's randomness too) isn't something I have seen before in the dungeon crawling genre.
Rolling on a table is bad, drawing a card from a deck is good. Gotcha.
Rolling dice and comparing it with a table to see what happens is outdated and bad because
-outdated -it belongs in a museum, being a staple of games from almost half a century ago
-bad-it is non-interactive, involves no agency or decision-making, players are just bots that mindlessly push the game forward when it plays itself
Action cards in Gloomhaven are innovative and good
-innovative - choosing from a hand of actions cards and planning which ones to use and which actions on them to pair up, which also determines your initiative and is also your stamina pool is a pretty new concept
-good- there's a lot of decision-making ALL THE TIME. You plan tactically which cards to use to solve the current situation, but also strategically, which ones to save for later and how to optimise your moves, because the trickle of cards from your hand (which are also your stamina/HP pool for the adventure) determines how many turns you can play before you exhaust your cahracter. This level of agency and meaningful planning (which isn't arbitrarily cancelled by the game's randomness too) isn't something I have seen before in the dungeon crawling genre.
Rolling on a table is bad, drawing a card from a deck is good. Gotcha.
Well... it is more tactile. Also, you don't need to find the result on a table, and you can extend the "table" (meaning, the cards deck) without needing to reprint, just adding stuff.
So, taking into account that they are meant to give you the same end result... yes, a card deck would generally be better, as it is more versatile, easier to fix if it's broken, upgradeable and with faster resolution.
Is everyone is forgetting the original WHQ was card based? Dungeon layout, monsters, random events, treasure, all cards. It also included lots of tables to expand on the cards.
Original WHQ was awesome because it gave you a simple card based game to play, and included a book to expand it into something more. Rules for all the monsters they made, and rules to expand the game to the umpteenth degree. It was like being given the keys to the whole Old World and being told ‘go nuts’. This game looks very slick but its a very different product.
Well if you want to talk about control groups with regards to WHQ I only got into Warhammer in 2003. Only really started playing in 2005. I never played WHQ and my experience with the mechanics are a combination of playing the video game, Tabletop Simulator and watching GMG videos on the original game.
I infinitely prefer it to most modern games because it's wacky, hard and brutal.
Frankly the critique of "just nostalgia" is a deeply lazy critique to be honest.
Now back on topic...my local game store isn't doing pre-orders sooo. Hopefully I can grab the game this weekend. If not I'll have to wait for the next print...if there is one that is.
Card vs dice tables is a very different experience (the former is absolutely more elegant which is why it's the standard in Eurogames these past 25 years), has different probabilities (depending on when you reshuffle), has different possibilities for player knowledge of and influence of the draw, etc.
On the other hand, modern games have gotten a bit too trigger happy with having a card for everything and it makes set up and storage more inconvenient. Descent/imperial assault are particularly annoying, *everything* is a card. Good luck putting a campaign on hold and coming back to it in 6 months when even the campaign structure is in a deck of cards.
I detest games with too many components in general. It suggests the designer is more concerned with showing off all the cute mechanics he's thought of than making a smooth game.
Rolling dice and comparing it with a table to see what happens is outdated and bad because
-outdated -it belongs in a museum, being a staple of games from almost half a century ago
-bad-it is non-interactive, involves no agency or decision-making, players are just bots that mindlessly push the game forward when it plays itself
Action cards in Gloomhaven are innovative and good
-innovative - choosing from a hand of actions cards and planning which ones to use and which actions on them to pair up, which also determines your initiative and is also your stamina pool is a pretty new concept
-good- there's a lot of decision-making ALL THE TIME. You plan tactically which cards to use to solve the current situation, but also strategically, which ones to save for later and how to optimise your moves, because the trickle of cards from your hand (which are also your stamina/HP pool for the adventure) determines how many turns you can play before you exhaust your cahracter. This level of agency and meaningful planning (which isn't arbitrarily cancelled by the game's randomness too) isn't something I have seen before in the dungeon crawling genre.
Rolling on a table is bad, drawing a card from a deck is good. Gotcha.
Well... it is more tactile. Also, you don't need to find the result on a table, and you can extend the "table" (meaning, the cards deck) without needing to reprint, just adding stuff.
So, taking into account that they are meant to give you the same end result... yes, a card deck would generally be better, as it is more versatile, easier to fix if it's broken, upgradeable and with faster resolution.
An expanded card deck would require a printed expansion in order to be modified (unless you're fine with adding home made cards to your decks), a table could be extended online, in a magazine, in a PDF, or simply be printed again in any expansion material. A table doesn't need to be buried in a book, it can be printed on to a play-aid or a dedicated card. Also I think you're over-emphasising how often a company will actually modify a deck of cards. Depending on how popular a particular game is it may never actually see any expansions, making the modularity of a card deck a moot point. As for tactility, you're rolling dice to consult a table, that's a fairly tactile experience (and can add its own drama as everyone cranes in to see what result you got).
Realistically, the two mechanics resolve in a similar way and are merely different methods of achieving the same result. There are situations where a card deck absolutely would be a better choice, I won't deny that, but there are plenty of cases where a table would work fine and would not, in fact, be a detriment to gameplay.
Ian Sturrock wrote:Card vs dice tables is a very different experience (the former is absolutely more elegant which is why it's the standard in Eurogames these past 25 years), has different probabilities (depending on when you reshuffle), has different possibilities for player knowledge of and influence of the draw, etc.
I wouldn't go as far as to say it's "absolutely more elegant" as cards add extra set-up, bookkeeping, and storage concerns to any game they are included in (not to mention potential for damage or wear). But, as I said in my initial post on the topic, any mechanics utility is dependent on the way it is implemented into a game. Tables have their uses and aren't automatically bad just because some people feel they are 'antiquated'.
Anyway, this is getting ridiculously off topic. I've said my piece and I doubt I've changed any minds. Sorry for dragging it out.
Well, to move slightly back towards the topic, Cursed City in particular is definitely not a game where the designer just kept piling on stuff for the sake of more stuff.
lord_blackfang wrote: Well, to move slightly back towards the topic, Cursed City in particular is definitely not a game where the designer just kept piling on stuff for the sake of more stuff.
I dunno. There are a lot of tokens that you only appear to use once (the experience and level tokens).
H.B.M.C. wrote: I dunno. There are a lot of tokens that you only appear to use once (the experience and level tokens).
I think they're just here to keep track from one game session to another. Put everything in your bag with your hero cards until the next time. Since, you know, the material in Cursed City is definitely not designed to be written on like Old Quest.
Miss customization from Old Quest, but unlike others, I'm not blinded by nostalgia : Old Quest had serious drawbacks because of lack of direction (with random maps making absolute nonsense). Silver Tower was more similar to Old Quest than you'd ever want to aknowledge, and had the same weird situations as well.
And having characters with strong ties with the story and setting of the game helps a lot for immersion.
Cursed City and Old Quest have clear ties to each other, but they are different games entirely. Which is certainly why Ash from Guerilla Miniatures keeps playing Old Quest as it was and laugh of the wacky nonsense dungeon maps and monsters spawning in the middle of the first corridor three times in a row. I must say it's funny to watch from time to time.
Quest 95 certainly wasnt perfect, but to say its only whacky nonsense is ignoring all the goodness in the Roleplay book; add a GM and the game seriously changes. Judging old Quest on the card draw board game is like playing 40k / aos with just the free online rules and saying thats all there is to it.
lord_blackfang wrote: We really need a control group of people who have never played oldtimey games to determine of Quest is good or not
Me & my buds never played original Quest but had a blast with Silver Tower and Shadows over Hammerhall, fwiw. Though we definitely hit a point were we felt like we've 'beaten' the replay value and it has lost appeal to play again. But at the end of the day I feel like I got my money's worth out of both games, and I still use the miniatures elsewhere.
Sarouan wrote: Miss customization from Old Quest, but unlike others, I'm not blinded by nostalgia
Now we're blinded by nostalgia, hey?
I can acknowledge the flaws in a game and still think it's fantastic. Old Quest is. That's not nostalgia speaking, that's experience. Old and new.
Yup. Nostalgia is when people exclaim how much better 'old' 40k fluff was, reality is going back and reading it again. And oh boy does that nostalgia die quick when the reality falls short. Nostalgia can make something seem better, but not that much better, and it is pretty easy for even the average person to recognize when they like something because of nostalgia.
To those saying old Quest is actually bad; when was the last time you played it, and why shouldn't I listen to the experience of someone who still is?
Luke82 wrote: Quest 95 certainly wasnt perfect, but to say its only whacky nonsense is ignoring all the goodness in the Roleplay book; add a GM and the game seriously changes. Judging old Quest on the card draw board game is like playing 40k / aos with just the free online rules and saying thats all there is to it.
Of course, if you change the core rules and decide to make a boardgame into a "true" pen and paper RPG, the experience can be awesome.
That applies to all games, though. Imagine if you add a GM in Monopoly ! Now that is an entirely new experience you will certainly remember amongst the others. Even if it's bad.
After all, I even did that with Hasbro's Heroquest. And I'm old enough to even remember GW's Advanced Heroquest.
The wacky nonsense of Old Quest is just what you remember with a good smile on your face, because it's precisely because it's wacky nonsense that it's burnt in your mind. The more normal, average games tend to be not as marking your mind.
Anyway, I'm fine with keep playing Old Quest as it was and Cursed City as it is. I don't need to turn Cursed City into Old Quest, since it's clearly not the intent behind the game. And I would even add...what's the point, in the end, unless for nostalgia like the Heroquest Kickstarter ? I do remember Heroquest from Hasbro, and yeah I had a ton of fun with it, especially with the expansion when you could make your own maps with stickers...but I also do aknowledge the rules that I enjoyed when I was lot younger wouldn't be as enjoyable to me as the gamer I am now with the experience behind me. And I can see the flaws behind these rules as well.
But no game needs to be the perfect game system to be fun. No one. Which is why Gloomheaven isn't the best seller even if its fans consider it the best rule system. The point of a game is to have fun, and rules are just means to that.
To those saying old Quest is actually bad; when was the last time you played it, and why shouldn't I listen to the experience of someone who still is?
You don't need that, you can watch Ash's youtube videos on his games with Old Quest. You can see how much fun he has with it.
And I still remember fondly the fun I had too.
But yeah, there were some results with a combination of events and random dungon map cards that were really wacky nonsense. And you can see that on Ash's videos too !
Luke82 wrote: Quest 95 certainly wasnt perfect, but to say its only whacky nonsense is ignoring all the goodness in the Roleplay book; add a GM and the game seriously changes. Judging old Quest on the card draw board game is like playing 40k / aos with just the free online rules and saying thats all there is to it.
Of course, if you change the core rules and decide to make a boardgame into a "true" pen and paper RPG, the experience can be awesome.
That applies to all games, though. Imagine if you add a GM in Monopoly ! Now that is an entirely new experience you will certainly remember amongst the others. Even if it's bad.
After all, I even did that with Hasbro's Heroquest. And I'm old enough to even remember GW's Advanced Heroquest.
The wacky nonsense of Old Quest is just what you remember with a good smile on your face, because it's precisely because it's wacky nonsense that it's burnt in your mind. The more normal, average games tend to be not as marking your mind.
Anyway, I'm fine with keep playing Old Quest as it was and Cursed City as it is. I don't need to turn Cursed City into Old Quest, since it's clearly not the intent behind the game. And I would even add...what's the point, in the end, unless for nostalgia like the Heroquest Kickstarter ?
To those saying old Quest is actually bad; when was the last time you played it, and why shouldn't I listen to the experience of someone who still is?
You don't need that, you can watch Ash's youtube videos on his games with Old Quest. You can see how much fun he has with it.
And I still remember fondly the fun I had too.
But yeah, there were some results with a combination of events and random dungon map cards that were really wacky nonsense. And you can see that on Ash's videos too !
Well it wasn’t changing the rules, they were in the box from the get go. I had a blast with the whacky nonsense one offs and the detailed campaigns embarked on, back in 95 and more recently, and intend to again.
Well it wasn’t changing the rules, they were in the box from the get go. I had a blast with the whacky nonsense one offs and the detailed campaigns embarked on, back in 95 and more recently, and intend to again.
Go for it.
That said, I completely understand why GW didn't just copy and paste Old Quest's rules for Cursed City. Because they are aware of the flaws for sure, even if they're clearly aware of the strengths.
Just a thought; While card-stock production maybe a concern, what would hold them back from releasing the hostiles - as they did with BSF - as individual kits in the meantime?
Sigh, just want that Vargskyr to replace the Scooby-Doo werewolf in Ravenloft...
So there will be some shipping delays (to add to the 2 weeks it will just sit in German customs ). I'm half hoping they run out of keys before mine and I get a voucher like I did with Indomitus.
Hello,
We’re getting in touch to let you know that we’re expecting some delays to orders this week.
Rest assured that we have your order details and we’re getting it all ready to send out to you – it might be just a few days later than you would usually expect.
Thanks for your patience.
If you haven’t received your order in 28 days, please let us know – though we'll hopefully get it to you much quicker than that!
SamusDrake wrote: Just a thought; While card-stock production maybe a concern, what would hold them back from releasing the hostiles - as they did with BSF - as individual kits in the meantime?
Sigh, just want that Vargskyr to replace the Scooby-Doo werewolf in Ravenloft...
DaveC wrote: So there will be some shipping delays (to add to the 2 weeks it will just sit in German customs ). I'm half hoping they run out of keys before mine and I get a voucher like I did with Indomitus.
Hello,
We’re getting in touch to let you know that we’re expecting some delays to orders this week.
Rest assured that we have your order details and we’re getting it all ready to send out to you – it might be just a few days later than you would usually expect.
Thanks for your patience.
If you haven’t received your order in 28 days, please let us know – though we'll hopefully get it to you much quicker than that!
Games Workshop Customer Services Team
I had the same e-mail in regards to the Piety and Pain box I ordered from them a week ago so looks like they are pretty behind at the moment.
DaveC wrote: So there will be some shipping delays (to add to the 2 weeks it will just sit in German customs ). I'm half hoping they run out of keys before mine and I get a voucher like I did with Indomitus.
Any reason why you're ordering it straight from GW?
My local store tells me last week they are getting over 130 copies, I call today to just confirm I'm still on the list and they tell me its super limited and I'm #4 so I should be ok.... uh... dealing with GW product is like toilet paper in a pandemic
They've been decent the few times I've used them before, but I've no experience with preorders/new releases.
Managed to snaffle myself one of the last few copies this morning, and on a side note, for those just after individual minis, Bitsandkits have most at pretty reasonable rates (£15 a character, £10 for 6 of each swarm for example).
I must say I am not a fan of GW's (weirdly incomplete) translations into German and have already an order with GW for the English copy. But now I've ordered the German one as well because I want to be able to play with folks who are less confident with English. So - do I cancel my GW order for the English copy, or is anyone here interested in one complete set of minis (shipping from Germany obviously)?
Good to see scalpers will miss out this time around.
@TheGoodGerman: I'd be willing to buy the skellies and a couple of characters if you are going to split the box. Even the whole miniature set if we can agree on a price
They've been decent the few times I've used them before, but I've no experience with preorders/new releases.
Thanks for that, just got a confirmation email that its been shipped. I had an order in with OnTableTop originally but got a message after that I missed the initial allotment and would be on
the waiting list, so that'll have to be cancelled.
BertBert wrote: Good to see scalpers will miss out this time around.
Yes. I've been watching the eBay listings in anticipation of some official GW communication about Cursed City's future availability that will burst the bubble. Their silence is shameful and helps only the wrong people.
BertBert wrote: @TheGoodGerman: I'd be willing to buy the skellies and a couple of characters if you are going to split the box. Even the whole miniature set if we can agree on a price
Once I have both boxes sitting here I might come back on this. First need to talk to a friend with whom I'll play the game.
Re price: I was willing to pay the listed ~20 Pounds to some scalper for their leftover paper/cardboard bits. So if I end up no worse than that, I'd be content.
Edit:
Wow, they're fast. That German shop has just sent a shipping notice.
Ugg, so it turns out my FLG WAS doing pre-orders. Its just that their website has been borked the last week. It was finally fixed last night and when I check this morning they were sold out.
So I guess I'll have to wait for the next printing....if there is one. The fact the website keeps saying "No longer available" has me concerned...
I noticed on the Oz online store, Cursed City has swapped from "Temporarily out of stock Online" to "No longer available Online".
Maybe they just made a mistake with the label, but the latter is generally used for stuff that's gone not to be replenished, and there's no option to ask them to email you when it comes back in stock.
I really, really hope it becomes widely available soon. I'd like to pick up some of the figures individually, but even "nobodies" like Grimscry cost 1/4th of the box price on ebay. Ridiculous
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I noticed on the Oz online store, Cursed City has swapped from "Temporarily out of stock Online" to "No longer available Online".
Maybe they just made a mistake with the label, but the latter is generally used for stuff that's gone not to be replenished, and there's no option to ask them to email you when it comes back in stock.
Been that way for a few days now, but yeah, not the first time if it ends up being a mistake. Liber Xenologis went No Longer Available before being quickly pulled and restocked when it first came out.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Lots of confusing info out there, and importantly, seemingly no official word one way or the other from GW.
Which is the annoying bit. Like, if this really is just a one off run just say it. Sucks I missing out but at least I know and can burn my money on other stuff. So far all indicators say "nope! That's it!"
Wow, Total Cards just emailed me asking for another £60 for Cursed City due to a "pricing error." Absolutely disgusting behaviour, and I'm sorry I linked to them now.
Just to update people regarding Total Cards orders, they've just emailed me saying that they had it priced incorrectly, and now want an additional £61 to dispatch it. I'd suggest any who ordered there to get it refunded unless you're happy to pay over the odds....
Domican wrote: Wow, just got the email. I wont be paying anymore than that, they weren't exactly selling it much cheaper than other companies.
Whats the best response here folks
Refund, they got back to me pretty quickly, 24-48 hours is what you get back. Don't be afraid to be honest with their blatant swindling, I sure wasn't....
Refused wrote: Wow, Total Cards just emailed me asking for another £60 for Cursed City due to a "pricing error." Absolutely disgusting behaviour, and I'm sorry I linked to them now.
Jeebus!
Scamela Voorhees!
Genuinely honestly? Rat on them to GW. Likely nowt will be done, but GW might decide to strip their supply in future. They certainly do it with companies *cough troll trader cough* who buy wholesale, then split.
Refused wrote: Wow, Total Cards just emailed me asking for another £60 for Cursed City due to a "pricing error." Absolutely disgusting behaviour, and I'm sorry I linked to them now.
Jeebus!
Scamela Voorhees!
Genuinely honestly? Rat on them to GW. Likely nowt will be done, but GW might decide to strip their supply in future. They certainly do it with companies *cough troll trader cough* who buy wholesale, then split.
Yeah this is genuine, same email for me. I've left them a scathing email, got my refund, nothing will change but I will never be ordering from them again thats for sure.
Refused wrote: Wow, Total Cards just emailed me asking for another £60 for Cursed City due to a "pricing error." Absolutely disgusting behaviour, and I'm sorry I linked to them now.
In many countries the vendor is legally obliged to sell the product at the advertised price, even if there had been an error in the advertisement. Increasing the price after receiving the order and the original payment seems highly legally dubious to me... Might be worth checking the relevant laws of the appropriate country.
There’s also something niggling away at me that they’re not actually allowed to do that.
It’s not exactly my realm of expertise, but if they’ve advertised Price X, accepted payment equal to Price X, then the contract is made.
Now, that’s not necessarily true in shops. If I pick up a bottle of Diet Coke because £1.50 on special, but scans at £2.05, they have wiggle room because price updates take time.
I really don’t think they could charge the £1.50, accept the £1.50, then demand I pay 55p more.
I’ll do some research as soon as I’m clocked off at work!
If they'd bumped it up to £125 to match the GW retail price, then I probably would've caved and moved on. Instead I'm never going to use them again, and ensure I recommend no one else does either. Hope the quick cash grab is worth it for them.
Technically, in the UK, we still use the 'treat to trade' obligation regarding pricing, its a very dubious grey area under the Sale of Goods act.
Edit- They are genuinely trying to play this as human error, even after selling all of their stock and sending out the shipping invoices. The gall of them is unbelievable.
I'm certainly glad that I didn't cancel my pre order with OnTableTop this morning, I was waiting until I could see Total Cards had shipped my order. Scammers,no different than scalpers.
OK doke. Some non-committal stuff from the Citizen’s Advice Bureau.
Your legal rights depend on something fairly tricky in the law: whether or not you have a ‘contract’.
Depending on the company’s terms and conditions, you’ll have legal rights (and a contract) either:
once you’ve paid for the item
once they’ve sent it to you
You’ll need to find the company’s terms and conditions to find out where you stand. Contact the Citizens Advice consumer helpline if you need help. It may be too tricky to work out yourself.
If you have a contract, the company can’t usually cancel your order, even if they realise they’ve sold you something at the wrong price. They’ll only be able to cancel it if it was a genuine and honest mistake on their part that you should’ve noticed.
If you don’t have a contract and someone realises they’ve told you the wrong price, they can cancel your order.
Neither we nor any third parties provide any warranty or guarantee as to the accuracy, timeliness, performance, completeness or suitability of the information and materials found or offered on this website for any particular purpose. You acknowledge that such information and materials may contain inaccuracies or errors and we expressly exclude liability for any such inaccuracies or errors to the fullest extent permitted by law. This also extends our right to refuse the right to refuse service after purchase on any order that falls under any of the above mentioned conditions.
Seems they have covered such shenanigans. The dickheads.
It’s really going to boil down to at what point the contract is agreed.
Common Sense would suggest “when they’ve offered a price, I’ve accepted the price, and they’ve accepted the payment”. But Common Sense doesn’t necessarily apply to Law.
Another look at their T&Cs, and maybe they can’t...
For any orders placed that contain any pre-order items, we will hold this order and set the order status to "processing" until everything is ready to ship. When everything is ready to dispatch you will then receive an email informing you that your order is on it's way, thus changing your order status to "complete".
When placing an order with us, we will always secure the funds at the checkout. Orders containing single cards are subject to our Single Cards Return Policy. We use a warranty seal on orders containing single cards. If these seal is broken we cannot accept returns for single cards.
Emphasis mine. Seems that would settle the contract. They say “you want this, you pay me X”. You agree, and pay X. Crucially, they accept X. So maybe they can’t turn round at that point and say “Oh I’m sorry, did we say X, we meant Y. Pay is the difference”
That is absolutely disgusting behaviour. Advertising goods at one price and then adding a hidden cost on later is something that should be reported to Trading Standards.
lord_blackfang wrote:T&C have no bearing on anything. You can't sign away your consumer rights. *gasp* Or can you now that you're no longer in the EU?
Billicus wrote:That is absolutely disgusting behaviour. Advertising goods at one price and then adding a hidden cost on later is something that should be reported to Trading Standards.
That review from a big fan of AOS is pretty damning.
Looks like everybody who tried to get a copy and couldn't dodged a bullet.
That level of tedium from a $200 game is pretty embarrassing for GWimo.
You reckon? Sounds like he's awful hungup on BSF and didn't play all that much of Cursed City. Going from what Ash has shown us I think I'm on to a winner.
I've watched all of Ash's videos so far (except the one that just went up) and so far it seems like lots of fun.
A bit on the easy side when it comes to combat and killing enemies (but the enemies hit like a truck, so that kinda makes up for it), and certainly the 3 missions to level up makes it more grindy than it needs to be, but otherwise I like the look of it.
I mean from what I've seen so far it does seem too easy. But that can be said of all the recent WHQ games. None of them were particularly challenging (BSF a bit at the beginning, but once you level you can steamroll through it)
How much of that is just because its one person controlling all the heros? Its easy to game when it's one person controlling everyone as opposed to 4 different people moving their model around independently.
I think the man makes some poor extrapolations from reading the rules once and maybe playing one mission.
For example saying it's tedious to wait for enemies assumes you'll camp one corner and wait 5 turns for them to walk to you, and this completely disregards the nightfall mechanic, never mind that two mission types have scrolling dungeons where you have to outrun an instant death effect.
The T&C document looks like an amateurish mess. Obviously it was originally meant to be terms & conditions for the use of their website, which is different from terms & conditions of the contracts of purchase they do. Crucially, there is no proper 'sales stuff' in there (eg prices, delivery, retention of title, place of performance etc), just the three points in yellow that crossed their minds at some point and then they put them in front of the older text. The important part for you: it does not explicitly regulate which action will conclude the purchase contract. Where I'm from, that would have been pretty standard content in a webshop t&c document (and it would say that the contract is only formed when either they send out the item, or they explicitly confirmed the contract; everything else is just foreplay).
You might actually have a contract of sale if their behaviour gave you the legitimate impression that they accepted your order (again, I'm not a UK lawyer). But then, this might not get you far. If they're able to cancel it anyway or renege on it, you might have a claim for damages - and what damage has been caused? This might be too 'peanuts' for a court case either way. So, if you're angry enough, complain away at the relevant bodies that might issue fines or that might have legal standing to 'police' such things through courts on the consumers' behalf.
Edit: Maybe they've also sent some legal texts with the emails / order confirmations etc.
I think internet websites have a safety net when it comes to prices because I do recall many times where something got listed at a stupidly low price (eg some one puts the decimal point in the wrong place) and everyone flocked to buy it and sales were processed, but later cancelled. So I believe distance selling does protect the seller from miss-listed prices. Otherwise any minor mistake on price could sink any online firm in moments.
That said whilst they legally might be allowed to do it; the moral side is very clear. Spread the word to the game communities and they'll be blacklisted by many for this practice. Jacking up the price by £60 on a £125 retail product is insane when they've already agreed to sell at a certain price to customers.
I would also say yes do contact GW because whilst they are a 3rd party they are trading with GW and bad 3rd party trading will reflect on GW. So yes do contact GW to inform them of this.
My reply to them (thank goodness I hadn;t cancelled my GW-direct preorder - and was planning on returning it should this cheaper option have worked out). I wonder if we users might petition to have their website blacklisted on these forums, so we don;t inadvertantly give them custom in the future.
My reply (censored here, not in the actual message):
--
Lol, no.
You cheeky b*stards have some brass ones, I'll give you that. Nice attempt to price gouge, but you'll not get anything extra from me. You can take your request for 20% above RRP, stick it up your ars*s, and spin.
Either honour the contracted price, or cancel, refund, DELETE my account and any contact records you have for me, and be prepared for reporting to trading standards, I see other customers are just as disgusted at your scamming attempt here and voicing their thoughts on your practices rather vociferously online - if you do not honour the price I shall be joining them in reporting on your action here far and wide to protect other gamers from potentially being scammed.
Shame on you - I hope the reputational damage is worth it - for I shall certainly be warning against you from here on out.
Hah, I'm tempted to send them a bill for wasting my time with this nonsense. £122 an hour I figure it's worth, and I spent 30 mins engaging with this nonsense.
From the videos, it looks a *lot* like the AoS Solo rules they published in WD few months ago, just with a little more polish and fancy dice and board.
I still havnt heard back from them since I responded to their email at 4.30. Lack of communication never helps in these situations, but then they're obviously clowns anyways
EDIT: I have officially reached the point where I'm yelling "Jelsen!!!" at my TV every time Ash forgets what symbol on the initiative track he selected for Jelsen is. He forgets 9 out of 10 times, and he's done it in every video so far. It's infuriating.
Albino Squirrel wrote: "...or is Ash just overly enthusiastic". Uh, is this the first video of his you've seen? Of course he's overly enthusiastic.
But even at the pace he plays and how much is edited out of his videos, the missions do seem pretty boring and tedious.
It's much more fun when you've got a couple of friends to share the characters with. Then you get the chaos of everyone trying to make their own decisions, or trying to work together. The solo-play is nice, but at some point you gotta wonder why you're playing this and not a video game like Fire Emblem.
I also got that cheeky email from TC. Waiting to see what happens with the others, but it's definitely no "accident", as they tried to say in their excuse for scalping.
I wonder if we can also report them to GW? Would that do anything?
hvg3akaek wrote: I also got that cheeky email from TC. Waiting to see what happens with the others, but it's definitely no "accident", as they tried to say in their excuse for scalping.
I wonder if we can also report them to GW? Would that do anything?
I sure GW won't appreciate a store pulling a trick like that and might well reprimand them or cut their trade account with them. I don't know if stores are forced to sell within a price range. I know the US stores can't undersell above a certain percentage, but I don't know if there are any upper limits on pricing things above the RRP. It's just typically never to the stores benefit to do so when customers can get it for less from other retailers and GW direct. That said this isn't just a case of a store selling something for more than RRP; its a store advertising price A then switching to price B after orders were taken and money changed hands. That's basically a bait and switch type affair and its dodgy at best and I'm sure GW wouldn't want their trading partners doing that to their customers
anab0lic wrote: Pretty negative impressions of the game here...
We already saw that on the previous page. His comments about the behaviour tables not being interesting are valid and the lack of ranged may be a problem but it is obvious even from one glance at the box contents. I didn't understand his criticism of the crisis. He ended up saying "actually these might be good but I'm angry so I don't like them. Also the way he described movement suggests that he is moving the heroes as a group which is s very cautious way to play the game.
Although Ash's rampant enthusiasm has to be taken into account, in his videos you can see the game being played and decide for yourself if the game looks interesting or not.
The other thing is that it would be pretty easy to mod the game to make it more difficult. Just playing the game with fewer than 4 characters or limiting the activation dice to 3 for each character or setting the spawn rates to one above your level or changing the time of day rate do you reach night faster.
Obviously it would be ideal if this wasn't necessary but I am still optimistic as I like the sound of most of the ancillary rules that have been described.
Billicus wrote: Damn Ash and his infectious enthusiasm for everything have sold me on many a game or book that I've then done nothing with.
He should do a playthrough of Monopoly or Snakes & Ladders at some point, just to get a baseline value of "Ash enthusiasm". Though as with any playthrough/review, it's of course best to look at the points made rather than the tone and conclusions anyway.
Overread wrote: I think internet websites have a safety net when it comes to prices because I do recall many times where something got listed at a stupidly low price (eg some one puts the decimal point in the wrong place) and everyone flocked to buy it and sales were processed, but later cancelled. So I believe distance selling does protect the seller from miss-listed prices. Otherwise any minor mistake on price could sink any online firm in moments.
That said whilst they legally might be allowed to do it; the moral side is very clear. Spread the word to the game communities and they'll be blacklisted by many for this practice. Jacking up the price by £60 on a £125 retail product is insane when they've already agreed to sell at a certain price to customers.
I would also say yes do contact GW because whilst they are a 3rd party they are trading with GW and bad 3rd party trading will reflect on GW. So yes do contact GW to inform them of this.
Not just websites but stores too.
Until money And goods have exchanged they can do it.
It’s not done often of course due to good will.
But sale of goods act allows it, though they technically have to remove the item for 24 hours, then advertise again at the new price (as a store it would just be pop it off the shelf, websites had to remove the entry).
Because it’s a pre order I guess even easier.
Also to the EU thing, this was the practise years ago also, not to do with leaving the EU.
It’s just the loss of goodwill that means most places wouldn’t. But in a shop that could just be one person, online obviously that then becomes everyone.
What was it up for on their site originally? With postage included?
An extra £60 sound like its be getting to over £150..
Cronch wrote: From the videos, it looks a *lot* like the AoS Solo rules they published in WD few months ago, just with a little more polish and fancy dice and board.
Just because both rule systems use AI behaviour for the "monsters" don't mean they're similar.
In fact, they are completely different.
Otherwise, what you say apply to litterally all solo games in the world using AI behaviour. Which is the majority of them, nowadays. It's like I'm saying AoS solo rules look a lot to Zombicide. Complete bs, obviously, but that's the same idea.
In the UK, GW can't even discuss pricing with retailers as it would be considered to be a form of collusion and price fixing. If they were to cut a trade contract over the way a reseller prices its product, this could be considered as an effort to price fix - which is very naughty and against competition law.
If you think a company is being naughty with regard to pricing and selling in the UK, report them to Trading Standards.
Yeah, what happens with Total Cards and the confusion with availability in other stores is the reason why people keep ordering directly on GW's website. Simply put, they're the most reliable...and since they're the ones making them first...so that's your answer, HBMC. Sometimes, a small discount isn't enough.
Elsewhere, they're just resellers. So they resell what they can have, at the price they see it fit given the current situation.
As for the reviews, people will pick those that are validating their point of view the most. If they think "GW make bad games", they'll tend to choose the negative reviews. If they think "GW make good games", they'll tend to choose the positive reviews. And if they're neutral...roll a dice !
It was £98.95, postage was another £8 on top for me as Im in Ireland(despite Dakka giving me a US flag somtimes).
As I said to them in my response their pricing was in line with some other online retailers so it's not obviously
some human error on their part, bangs of greed
Domican wrote: It was £98.95, postage was another £8 on top for me as Im in Ireland(despite Dakka giving me a US flag somtimes).
As I said to them in my response their pricing was in line with some other online retailers so it's not obviously
some human error on their part, bangs of greed
That's a fairly relevant point here.
I vaguely remember half a dozen cases of actual mistaken pricing in (major) online stores happing over the last decade, but they typically involve a typo leading to a product being a tenth of the price it should be. If it went to court, judges typically rule those as being so obviously wrong (and financially detrimental to the company if they have to supply the products at that price) that there is no obligation to do so. I think there was one case of some electronics being mistakenly listed at about 50% of the true price, and the company decided to take the financial damage and supply the products regardless. 20% below RRP certainly falls in the category "could be real". If anything, more likely than the >25% above RRP they now apparently want?!?! Never ordered from "Total Card", and now, most certainly never will...
Crossed my mind it being an error, but you wouldnt know, 10 copies and a site as popular as Wayland. I had some serious delays with them at the start of the year, Im hoping thats all been ironed out should I end up ordering from them again
I think some of the negative comments from the "disappointed" video fail to take into account how enemies react differently when there is also a "boss" on the board.
For example, if Gorslav the Gravekeeper turns up the zombies double activate.
I'm sure other "bosses" have similar effects on bat swarms etc.
So, yes, often times you will have enemies spawning far away and have to travel to them, but at other times that won't be the case.
And surely this adds to the tension? You have to kill a certain number of enemies in a set time but if the type of enemies you need to kill don't show up you have to fight through the chaff as quickly as you can to force them to spawn?
This means your party won't want to huddle together in one area and you will need to split up and manage the spawn points effectively.
I do, however, agree that it might turn into a bit of a grind, but my group played BSF once a week for 4 months before we completed the main set (with only 4 characters) and never got bored.
English GW Stores are reopening next week, and of the stock pics they’ve shown on their respective FB pages, each has a couple of copies for Cursed City - they’ll also likely have other assorted Ltd stuff. At least one has Piety and Pain for example.
So there’s another route there. I would offer to Loot for peeps, but the sets are likely going to be murder for postage due to their weight.
Esp for those of us who don't have panic buy money right now. £125 to £100 from 3rd parties isn't just the sort of money you find down the back of the couch when hunting for change.
I still think it will be restocked, I can't imagine that its a one time deal as it goes against everything the current GW has established. That said it is a bit odd that Blackstone is listed on the UK website as just out of stock whilst Cursed City is listed as Sold Out.
But then again the Forgeworld end of the website (which uses the same engine/store front) has been miss-listing things as sold out for a whlie now.
It might be an error GW has had for a long time that's only becoming apparent now because stuff is flying off the shelves so fast that we see the error more and more.
Tis annoying, especially considering BSF beside it on the site is labelled as temporarily out. They know full well this is the big talking point among buyers too.
I think Wayland have taken it off their site completely, cant seem to find it anymore after putting through an order when it appeared about 11am. My order is still marked as In Stock and allocated to me though.
Yeah, I'd also say that it's 100% a logistics thing they'll sort out sooner or later, but their communication is really a mess - why not just announce that it *will* be available, whenever?
I mean, the new Sony and MS consoles are basically unavailable for reasonable prices half a year after their hyped 'release' (LOL), but there's no doubt that they'll produce more once the chips or whatever are available ...
Overread wrote: Yeah its not as if announcing that there wil lbe more stock eventually will slow sales at this stage where its flying off shelves super fast.
The only thing that I can realistically think of at this juncture is that they are not sure how any Made to Order is going to work or the timeframes for it. The cards+board stuff really does, pardon the hyperbolic descriptors, hold them hostage to an outside source.
It might very well be that a MTO is going to be models alone. Or that they planned on releasing the Undead stuff alongside the Gravelords as a bundle.
My FLG just put up a message saying that there will be another run of the game. As a result they are taking pre-orders for when it's back in stock. Don't know if this is being communicated to other stores so if ask around.
I wouldn't be surprised if they won't say anything official until a new order for the externally supplied card components has been placed
although it's highly unlikely they wouldn't be able to source them from somewhere even if they're preferred supplier says no (or asks for too much money), but it's technically a risk
so until contracts are signed they won't feel happy saying anything
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if they won't say anything official until a new order for the externally supplied card components has been placed
although it's highly unlikely they wouldn't be able to source them from somewhere even if they're preferred supplier says no (or asks for too much money), but it's technically a risk
so until contracts are signed they won't feel happy saying anything
If it was going to be a regular stocked item, I'd be surprised if they hadn't already made those arrangements. If it's not going to be a regular stocked item, I doubt they'll change their minds now.
If its a regular stock item I would expect GW to either already have stock from overseas to pack or have it on the boat already. Considering it takes months for ships and freight to move around even in pre-corona times, it would be daft of them to have a long term product and to only now (after launch) be looking for production of more overseas contents for it.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: My FLG just put up a message saying that there will be another run of the game. As a result they are taking pre-orders for when it's back in stock. Don't know if this is being communicated to other stores so if ask around.
Got the same information from my own local store. Apparently GW told its owner there will be another print in may.
The community makes these things harder on themselves. GW said earlier in official communications this was an ongoing title that would continue to be stocked, but then somebody wrote a guy making 10 cents an hour if they really meant it, and much wringing of hands later, it's still an ongoing title that will continue to be stocked.
GW are a bunch of incompetent sods, but if you take that into account, what they intend to do becomes pretty easy to understand.
I think my trouble is when I see something I might like to buy (this or indomitus for instance) and it's actually on my radar that it's up for grabs it's already gone. I know I'm probably slow off the mark but it's just a real fear of piddling money up the wall..
Surely GW would get more money if they just kept things in stock and made to order etc?
Olthannon wrote: I think my trouble is when I see something I might like to buy (this or indomitus for instance) and it's actually on my radar that it's up for grabs it's already gone. I know I'm probably slow off the mark but it's just a real fear of piddling money up the wall..
Surely GW would get more money if they just kept things in stock and made to order etc?
Well, this will be regular stock. But it apparently hit some practical production/shipping limits, so it will be a bit until its back.
Unfortunately some people seem intent on making terrible decisions based on temporarily limited supply.
Olthannon wrote: I think my trouble is when I see something I might like to buy (this or indomitus for instance) and it's actually on my radar that it's up for grabs it's already gone. I know I'm probably slow off the mark but it's just a real fear of piddling money up the wall..
Surely GW would get more money if they just kept things in stock and made to order etc?
Well, this will be regular stock. But it apparently hit some practical production/shipping limits, so it will be a bit until its back.
Unfortunately some people seem intent on making terrible decisions based on temporarily limited supply.
In their defence? It’s clear that GW haven’t got across “there will be more”. That creates a certain panic to the buying. And yes it is rare I’m critical of GW, so that should go to explain my strength of feeling when it comes to “just bloody tell us, one way or the other”.
GaroRobe wrote: I wonder how well the "one per customer" thing worked. Because on ebay, I'm seeing individual models going for $30+ with "161 already sold."
Unfortunately some people seem intent on making terrible decisions based on temporarily limited supply.
How so, I've seen something I know I would like to own, I have available funds and cant say it's an item that will be available in the next few months?
To say I've made a terrible decision is just being a bit of a prick
Unfortunately some people seem intent on making terrible decisions based on temporarily limited supply.
How so, I've seen something I know I would like to own, I have available funds and cant say it's an item that will be available in the next few months?
To say I've made a terrible decision is just being a bit of a prick
Don't know you, don't know anything about your decisions. (Don't care either, so don't take it personally)
I was going by the post above me talking about people buying individual models from scalpers at $30 per model.
Given its a 50 model box (not counting objective markers) at $199, its basically $4 per model. Paying a 750% mark up is an objectively terrible decision, even if it was a limited edition thing.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: In their defence? It’s clear that GW haven’t got across “there will be more”. That creates a certain panic to the buying. And yes it is rare I’m critical of GW, so that should go to explain my strength of feeling when it comes to “just bloody tell us, one way or the other”.
How much of this panic is people in their own heads assuming someone else already reached out to GW? A number of pages back someone claimed the said it on FB, but I get the sense that no one is asking GW all that much.
A couple of people asked about reprints or if it's a limited run under the various Cursed City posts on FB, and the answers were invariably "If we get any updates we'll be sure to share them here. Thanks." or similar - that was a week ago :p
Daedalus81 wrote: Ah, well, my FLGS has 5 copies so I'll just meander down that way when I get a chance.
The LGS here decided ordering products to sell is for suckers, so they just... didn't.
I suspect the shop down the road a piece will have a pile- they still have a bunch of Indomitus boxes.
Is it one of those shops that stocks nothing but always says “we can order it for you”?
Yeah so can I mate, direct to my house. I lived near one of those and they didn’t last long.
A lot of stores around these parts got fed up with GW's crap and got to the point of only stocking a token amount of what they think will be popular, or ordering in items at the request of customers and selling at a 10% discount. I haven't heard too many store owners say how wonderful GW have been to work with.
Is it one of those shops that stocks nothing but always says “we can order it for you”?
Yeah so can I mate, direct to my house. I lived near one of those and they didn’t last long.
yeah, we had one of those open a couple of years ago, now closed down. They had very little GW stuff in stock, but a ton of historical stuff. But from the what the person running it said GW was the main seller, and he could order in what ever you wanted - but where is the advantage of that when I can do that from my sofa for the same price.
Is it one of those shops that stocks nothing but always says “we can order it for you”?
Yeah so can I mate, direct to my house. I lived near one of those and they didn’t last long.
yeah, we had one of those open a couple of years ago, now closed down. They had very little GW stuff in stock, but a ton of historical stuff. But from the what the person running it said GW was the main seller, and he could order in what ever you wanted - but where is the advantage of that when I can do that from my sofa for the same price.
GW's range is so big that not even GW stores carry even a fraction of it these days. The hobby stores around here will order GW stuff in at a discount, but then I've also been told by two different shop owners that after the discount they make barely any money themselves on GW products and only stock it with the hope people buy things they do make money on (be it 2nd hand GW stuff, people and clubs paying to use the gaming space, or enticing people into other products which they make more selling).
But really, I'd hate to own a hobby store these days trying to compete with the internet. Not just talking about wargaming stores, but in general hobby stores have a massive attrition rate these days.
MobileSuitRandom wrote: A couple of people asked about reprints or if it's a limited run under the various Cursed City posts on FB, and the answers were invariably "If we get any updates we'll be sure to share them here. Thanks." or similar - that was a week ago :p
Why people continue to draw conclusions or take meaning from literally the same corporate speak response the interns give to nearly every single question on that page astounds me.
Billicus wrote: Because other people are drawing conclusions from "blackstone was a range item with expansions so cursed city will definitely be"?
And because GW has confirmed that there are expansions and that it is a longer term product like Blackstone - in many interviews and such in the past. Heck they've already shown some of the first expansion models.
What are the expansion models? The rat vampire? The witch hunters?
The former is confirmed to be part of the Soulblight range (he's shown off alongside the new skeletons, zombies, etc. and has a brown base, while Quest models will have black bases.)
The latter are part of the Broken Realm books. We'll see more models teased for those books in the coming weeks.
Also, although I believe Cursed City will stick around, interviews also called The Wolf an ogor, so they're not 100% reliable.
GaroRobe wrote: What are the expansion models? The rat vampire? The witch hunters?
The former is confirmed to be part of the Soulblight range (he's shown off alongside the new skeletons, zombies, etc. and has a brown base, while Quest models will have black bases.)
The latter are part of the Broken Realm books. We'll see more models teased for those books in the coming weeks.
Also, although I believe Cursed City will stick around, interviews also called The Wolf an ogor, so they're not 100% reliable.
Those models will likely be in supporting White Dwarf articles, probably collected in an annual at some point. What they put in the expansions will be kept underwraps until they are revealled in future previews.
Aeneades wrote: These are the original messages about this not buying a one off production run -
Yeah, this is what annoys me though, taking these few messages as gospel is somehow correct but taking the many other times *since then* that they've said they either don't know or that "if you want it you need to be quick" as correct makes you an idiot apparently.
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Overread wrote: Heck they've already shown some of the first expansion models.
Which to be fair its a pair of basically vampire hunter characters being added to Cities of Sigmar at a time when Cursed City is basically that very same product idea of hunting vampires and heretical monsters.
Honestly its a strange update in its own respects considering that Cities of Sigmar is still basically a rescue faction at present with nothing actually uniting its designs or asthetics and humans as a race haven't had a single proper AoS release ever? In short a few characters that seem really well suited to the character quest game going out at the same time, seem an odd thing to throw into the core game. That is unless they are getting rules for both. I'd be really suprirsed if they don't have some Cursed City cross over option
Indeed you can find my first comment on those two somewhere on dakka went something like "how the hell are they for AoS proper and not for Cursed City"
Quite chuffed that once assembled, everything packs neatly back into the box.
It’ll do as stopgap for now, as I’ll be getting a carry case for the models, keep them all protected once painted. Also need to get one for BSF now I think about it.
What are other people's ,who have the game in hand, opinions on the light cream plastic that the 8 hero miniatures come in?
Personally I love it. Not sure if it an optical illusion or what but the casts seem super crisp and detailed. Kudos to the designers that cut the minis up in such a way that there are negligible mould lines across the set. Just be wary of the multiple very delicate pieces, I can see a lot of them being broken in transit.
Concur on the swarms. Both are detailed enough to reward a painter like me who will slap on a couple of colours and a wash and those artists who will take hours on them and intricately paint every detail.
But the skeletons and Ogres (including the hero one) are my favourite.
We also have the rare occurrence of GW adding a construction errata sheet for the Dwarf.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The peg that holds the backpack is a separate piece. Original instructions don’t say to use it.
Wouldn't be the first time. People still post "What the hell is this?" messages to the Necromunda Facebook groups asking what the other weapon on the Enforcer sprue is meant to be, as the instructions don't mention it at all.
Thankfully it wasn't hard to get a copy at my FLGS, so I picked mine today! Must finish what's on my paint station before jumping into it, but the models look super crisp on the sprues! I have a few friend interested to try the game out (a first) so that's extra motivation to work on it!
Yeah, and like I said already, it's weird how the handful of times they've said it will be available are gospel, but the many times, *more recently*, that they've said they can't confirm that are "just the community team not knowing anything". Like, they're the arbiters of fate when it suits you but otherwise they're clueless PR interns. And like more recent info doesn't trump older info in any rational mind.
Anyone who ordered off Wayland, can you see the status of your order hen you click on the reference number in your order history.
Usually it shows the items status and order details but I get nothing from my Cursed City order. Might just be because they've taken it off the site though.
Danny76 wrote: But going by the rulebook mentioning it seems a safe bet.
Ignoring the Facebook arguments for both sides of the discussion.
Yes - the rulebook states Cursed City is "the first quest" suggesting there's more content related to Ulfenkarn to come. What form that will take is anyone's guess, might be a whole nother boxed game.
Danny76 wrote: But going by the rulebook mentioning it seems a safe bet.
Ignoring the Facebook arguments for both sides of the discussion.
Yes - the rulebook states Cursed City is "the first quest" suggesting there's more content related to Ulfenkarn to come. What form that will take is anyone's guess, might be a whole nother boxed game.
There is a better indication further on.
Page 34 says - "Some expansions that follow will allow the heroes to keep the experience and levels they have gained"
Danny76 wrote: But going by the rulebook mentioning it seems a safe bet.
Ignoring the Facebook arguments for both sides of the discussion.
Yes - the rulebook states Cursed City is "the first quest" suggesting there's more content related to Ulfenkarn to come. What form that will take is anyone's guess, might be a whole nother boxed game.
Possible. But a slew of Blackstone Fortress-style expansions seems almost a given.
BertBert wrote: Can anyone confirm if the skeleton sprues in the box are duplicates? The preview makes it look like there are 10 different variants included.
It’s one sprue doubled, yeah. There’s parts to make them look different.
Danny76 wrote: But going by the rulebook mentioning it seems a safe bet.
Ignoring the Facebook arguments for both sides of the discussion.
Yes - the rulebook states Cursed City is "the first quest" suggesting there's more content related to Ulfenkarn to come. What form that will take is anyone's guess, might be a whole nother boxed game.
There is a better indication further on.
Page 34 says - "Some expansions that follow will allow the heroes to keep the experience and levels they have gained"
Nice. Although given the sticker price for Cursed City the expansions are almost certainly going to be a pass for me. And it's still no guarantee of a reprint
Domican wrote: Anyone who ordered off Wayland, can you see the status of your order hen you click on the reference number in your order history.
Usually it shows the items status and order details but I get nothing from my Cursed City order. Might just be because they've taken it off the site though.
I can't, but this is a regular problem I have with their site.
Going through my order history I can't bring up the details on about 2/3's of them.
I received my copy from them on Saturday, so I'd get in touch if yours hasn't been sent out yet.
Domican wrote: Anyone who ordered off Wayland, can you see the status of your order hen you click on the reference number in your order history.
Usually it shows the items status and order details but I get nothing from my Cursed City order. Might just be because they've taken it off the site though.
I can't, but this is a regular problem I have with their site.
Going through my order history I can't bring up the details on about 2/3's of them.
I received my copy from them on Saturday, so I'd get in touch if yours hasn't been sent out yet.
Ah Im fairly sure its sent, Im sure there was a shipped email, i'll check it again later. just a bit on edge after the problem with Total Cards, but Ive used Wayland plenty down the years without issue.
Well, until GW officially announces on the website - WHC or the store - I'll definitely be holding off on purchase now. To much drama and to few actual comments from GW about this.
If they turned around tomorrow and apologised for not being clear about continued availability and even stated it will be a fully supported product, like BSF, I'll still wait until the first expansion is released and see if I can get a copy of that . That, I'll expect that to be a limited product going by the BSF expansion schedule with no reprints & that's fine
If I can't buy both together, then I'll not be chasing around like a loon trying to give my money to someone for a product!
There are alot of things that GW produces which makes me smile and gets me hooked with anticipation, but it's always such a shame when silly things like this happen. I just got hold of all the shiny new Adeptus Titanicus stuff and about to put an order for more weapon sprues and terminals for full options, so I'll not missing Cursed City yet
Thinking about it, I'd rather be supporting a fully established product with a good future, than gamble on new items that 'feature' limited print runs which could halt your collection & gaming progress without any notice
I dont really understand this idea that its not a full product if you dont have the optional expansions.
I only went for the original box for BSF and feel its as complete a game as any other I own.
I do however understand some people are completionists and I've had to fight that side of things myself from time to time.
SquealMcSqueal wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall reprints of any of the BSF expansions ever - just 'Last chance to Buy' messages on the GW website, as the game was a standard 'Boxed Games' slow burner (So completely my fault that I didn't pick up the 'No Respite' expansion, as I thought, along with everyone else that it was a pure cash grab with the Death Guard mini's... but look at it now with it's £150+ price tag on eBay!)
No BSF reprints but equally no BSF release ever sold out in 12 hours. Or even 12 weeks. I certainly wasn't keeping up with everything but still managed to get copies of everything by having a quick search once it vanished from the GW store. I paid slightly over the odds for No Respite as had to import from Canada but the stuff was available for a good while. And that's the thing, I think if any of the expansions had sold out at pre-order, they would have printed more. There's no reason not to. But when a product eventually sells out after a few months... that doesn't suggest there's massive demand pent up that makes another printing worthwhile.
Honestly, it won't make me very popular on here for saying this, but I think GW actually got their print numbers on the BSF expansions close to spot on. Of course that means some people will have missed out though. But that they all stuck around for a good few months suggests they had gauged demand fairly well. They didn't sell out in a week, nor were they stuck with copies years on.
Billicus wrote:Gloomhaven is also (clearly) much better at appealing to board game fans that do things like rate games on boardgamegeek... I expect a large proportion of the Cursed City market have never even heard of it. All the BGG rankings mean is that that game is popular with BGG visitors.
I loved Gloomhaven. Played it most Tuesday nights for over a year, finished the campaign, had a brilliant time. But that was a campaign of around 60-70 sessions with seasons gamers. And Gloomhaven was hard. Most Tuesday nights we'd be exhausted after a mission (except for those occassions we had a broken character/build in our party).
The nu-Quest games are very different. Silver Tower or BSF I can pretty much introduce to people with very little gaming experience. "You roll your dice and you spend them on these things". I can handle the enemy phase and the between-game stuff myself in a more directed fashion. We get to throw dice, blow things up, have a few drinks, have a laugh.
I loved Gloomhaven, but Gloomhaven was never "a laugh" (well, except maybe some city events) - it was a wonderfully complex series of interacting puzzles. In Gloomhaven if you don't correctly understand what your allies are going to do you can play the wrong cards and literally end up doing nothing but moving 2 spaces on your turn, while your mates do all the fun stuff. Or if you don't properly understand how the monsters move, you can accidentally get too near and lose half your health. If you don't manage your cards right, your character can conk out in the middle of the mission leaving your friends to play without you for another hour. It's, so, so good. But to compare it WQ is missing the point entirely. They're completely different experiences.
Interestingly the only time we've really whiffed out on a game like this is Shadows of Brimstone. That just had too many random elements coupled with far too much book-keeping for a game that involved so much dice-rolling. You were keeping track of so many different things but it never really seemed to make much difference as you were just at the fate of the random dice. Plus the whole thing was so open-ended with no real campaign so no driving idea of why you were doing anything anyway. Shame, as I really did like the settings.
Also the point about the cost of printing cardboard material earlier was well made. I think people misunderstood. It's not that it justifies the total cost as regular board games are sold at around 5-10x their production costs, and GW are probably at the high end of that. But card compared to plastic is much more expensive that you'd think - despite minis usually adding more (perceived) value to the purchaser. In the case of Cursed City, with the amount GW will be making, and how streamlined their mini-production already is, the materials cost of the card in the box is likely around the same as the materials cost of the plastic. Whereas I think some people look at Cursed City and assume that the production costs are 80% the minis and 20% the cardboard. Just because that's how they sell on Ebay.
Ian Sturrock wrote: Thoughts on the game so far from folks who have copies? I'm trying to figure out if it's worth trying to grab a copy in the restock.
I got my copy, but haven't played yet. Drive Thru Games review suggests some problems with it being too easy and lack of ranged enemies, as well as being a grind, but Guerrilla Miniature Games has several play videos and seems to enjoy it.
My impressions watching and reading over the rules are that Bloodborne board game is a better designed game of this type, but the models for cursed city are nice so I don't regret buying it.
Also just pulled out my hammerhal tiles and Cursed Cities tile squares are larger so still usable but not 100% the same scale. imo I like the larger tiles.
deano2099 wrote: ...when a product eventually sells out after a few months... that doesn't suggest there's massive demand pent up that makes another printing worthwhile.
Honestly, it won't make me very popular on here for saying this, but I think GW actually got their print numbers on the BSF expansions close to spot on. Of course that means some people will have missed out though. But that they all stuck around for a good few months suggests they had gauged demand fairly well. They didn't sell out in a week, nor were they stuck with copies years on.
Not at all... somethings they do rather well. I also think the amount of time everything was in stock for was almost spot on. I only missed out on one expansion due to being incompetent in ignoring the last chance to buy warnings.
The flipside being... not being given any info on the continuation of a new product and allowing everyone to come up with theories about it. I mean, surely it can't be worth pouring so much time and effort into a one off, when they could have spent the same amount of time, effort and expenditure in progressing a flagship range that would be repeatedly sold out and restocked with no associated drama and have a massive longevity.
Also just pulled out my hammerhal tiles and Cursed Cities tile squares are larger so still usable but not 100% the same scale. imo I like the larger tiles.
Different tile size does not necessarily equal different scale. I haven't read the rules yet, but surely one difference to the other AoS Quest games is that there can be more than miniature on each square?
I've heard some people claiming the box was made in china. Back of the box says Made in the UK, I haven't picked up my copy yet but inspection of the store preview copy last week seemed to show it was the typical plastic and not the less dense Chinese stuff.
Only things in there that seem like they could be chinese is the paper components, anyone have any different info?
Also just pulled out my hammerhal tiles and Cursed Cities tile squares are larger so still usable but not 100% the same scale. imo I like the larger tiles.
Different tile size does not necessarily equal different scale. I haven't read the rules yet, but surely one difference to the other AoS Quest games is that there can be more than miniature on each square?
Maybe I shouldnt have said scale... All I was trying to point out is the tiles have larger squares...
What we clamouring for is some notification (not via some rando on Facebook) that Cursed City is coming back.
Tried emailing GW to find out?
FWIW, I did. My question to GW Customer Service:
“Can you at least tell me if Cursed City will be reprinted / available again in the future (ala Blackstone Fortress)? I've seen no official word from GW on this”
Here was their answer today:
“Thank you for your response, and I’m sorry but at this plan there are no plans that we are aware of to re-release this product. I'm sorry I don't have better news.”
huh.. seems like I completely slept on this. Really wanted that varghulf.
Im really not in the loop. Unfortunately it seems to be sold out everywhere.
Do we know if any of these are dropping separately or is a cases of waiting/hoping for wave 2 of stock?
What we clamouring for is some notification (not via some rando on Facebook) that Cursed City is coming back.
Tried emailing GW to find out?
FWIW, I did. My question to GW Customer Service:
“Can you at least tell me if Cursed City will be reprinted / available again in the future (ala Blackstone Fortress)? I've seen no official word from GW on this”
Here was their answer today:
“Thank you for your response, and I’m sorry but at this plan there are no plans that we are aware of to re-release this product. I'm sorry I don't have better news.”
Thats a bit of an odd answer, even looking past the typo it come across as very unprofessional.
Most of the time the GW direct customer service can say/know little more than what's on the community web-pages. I don't think they are much more informed than customers in that regard; if they are they are forbidden to say.
The Forgeworld direct support generally appear a little more well informed. Or at least have more understanding that when someone asks "is X out of stock" they want more than a repeat of what the store page already shows.
Overread wrote: Most of the time the GW direct customer service can say/know little more than what's on the community web-pages. I don't think they are much more informed than customers in that regard; if they are they are forbidden to say.
The Forgeworld direct support generally appear a little more well informed. Or at least have more understanding that when someone asks "is X out of stock" they want more than a repeat of what the store page already shows.
Yeah, when I've emailed FW about products they've generally been able to tell me "Yes, this is coming back, the moulds are damaged and being remade", or "No, this product is now out of stock and not being remade, sorry".
GW are idiots if they don´t do at the very least a second run when the product sold out in one day. Especially when this is the core of a small product line of expansions.
Picked up my copy from the newsagent after work today. It's right next to a local Italian place. Whole street smelled of freshly cooked pizza. It was very nice.
Cronch wrote: typo aside, it looks exactly like the canned reply you get from any other big business when the poor schmucks in CS are treated like mushrooms.
Which is precisely why E-mailing them is a waste of time.
FWIW, I did. My question to GW Customer Service:
“Can you at least tell me if Cursed City will be reprinted / available again in the future (ala Blackstone Fortress)? I've seen no official word from GW on this”
Here was their answer today:
“Thank you for your response, and I’m sorry but at this plan there are no plans that we are aware of to re-release this product. I'm sorry I don't have better news.”
Well done and at least we now have that to go on.
While it may seem fruitless emailing them, if enough customers ask then sometimes that can force their hand to address the concern. For example, enough Titanicus players spoke up when there was doubt regarding weapon sprues for their Warlords and the following community article appeared...
H.B.M.C. wrote: Picked up my copy from the newsagent after work today. It's right next to a local Italian place. Whole street smelled of freshly cooked pizza. It was very nice.
Cronch wrote: typo aside, it looks exactly like the canned reply you get from any other big business when the poor schmucks in CS are treated like mushrooms.
Which is precisely why E-mailing them is a waste of time.
Or calling, or chatting. CS is never told anything because most companies treat it as the colon of the organization...
It used to be better way back in the 90s. I think its just that as GW has grown the customer service staff system has shifted toward a more standard corporate system. They might also be worse off now as they are likely working from home and might not just be able to check with the factory like they might normally.
FW team I think are better only because you're more likely dealing with someone who works in the FW factory team side of things directly or such
For people that want it, I'm guessing we'll get a "made to order" wave like Indomitus(?). But that's such a stupid thing to make this limited.
With Indomitus, it was limited because GW wanted to sell the models from the set individually and at a mark up. But we're getting new skeletons and zombies, so wth?!?
At a guess, I am going to assume that Cursed City is an aborted print run that was to mirror BSF and its long running release schedule of expansion sets. This is probably due to covid and they might have decided to return to the usual single core boxed set approach, with the odd small expansion and WD articles, and then another single-game the following year( like Silver Tower and Hammerhal ).
If Cursed City does return I wonder if it will be revised into such a product, where they remove any mention of future expansions.
I'm still gonna say that was a GW rep talking out of his bum (it's well known that some are physically unable to admit when they don't know and will just make something up).
Yep, that sounds like one of the standard customer service reps who doesn't have access to any information beyond what they can see by looking at the webstore.
Overread wrote: It used to be better way back in the 90s. I think its just that as GW has grown the customer service staff system has shifted toward a more standard corporate system. They might also be worse off now as they are likely working from home and might not just be able to check with the factory like they might normally.
From a communication perspective I suspect you are right, but from an actual customer service point of view, I've only ever had good experiences with GW.
Their online team is attentive and quick to resolve any problem I've ever had, even going above and beyond to resolve issues (ie. replacing entire missing orders and giving a gift card of the same value).
Which is why I don't believe it. The notion that GW doesn't want to milk this game with a series of even more overpriced expansions (compared to BSF) just doesn't ring true.
Illumini wrote: GW are idiots if they don´t do at the very least a second run when the product sold out in one day. Especially when this is the core of a small product line of expansions.
And despite what many people here seem to think, they are not idiots. You don't make sales and profits at the levels they do by behaving stupidly.
It's probably gonna get reprinted, but on the other hand...think of the sweet sweet FOMO this would implant in everyone if it was just once and gone. After all, sneaker companies pull this gak all the time and make obscene profit from it. They don't make *all* possible profit from limited run,but the near-addiction fomo generates is worth it to them.
Illumini wrote: GW are idiots if they don´t do at the very least a second run when the product sold out in one day. Especially when this is the core of a small product line of expansions.
And despite what many people here seem to think, they are not idiots. You don't make sales and profits at the levels they do by behaving stupidly.
Well, out of 3 new releases I've wanted to buy this calendar year, I managed to buy one. The other two were out of stock too fast to get one.
For me, it's their loss. If they do re-release Cursed City now, I doubt I'll get it, mainly because I know the chance of getting the expansions is near impossible too.
However, If GW make a few games a year that vanish too quick, it gains them bonus points with the fomo crowd. They're even more likely to buy things they're in two minds about as they know they need to get it instantly.
Overread wrote: It used to be better way back in the 90s. I think its just that as GW has grown the customer service staff system has shifted toward a more standard corporate system. They might also be worse off now as they are likely working from home and might not just be able to check with the factory like they might normally.
From a communication perspective I suspect you are right, but from an actual customer service point of view, I've only ever had good experiences with GW.
Their online team is attentive and quick to resolve any problem I've ever had, even going above and beyond to resolve issues (ie. replacing entire missing orders and giving a gift card of the same value).
Oh very true they are a great customer service system. But you can tell that its changed from the past in a steady subtle way. Like I said most of them appear to have little more than what the webstore shows them. If it shows "sold out" then that's the company position and that's what they go with. It doesn't matter if its a miss listing on the site; if its a mistake; if its real or fake; they basically aren't able/allowed to deviate from what the site shows.
Which is great from a customer service point of view because they are spreading a single reinforced message.
The issue is when that message is incorrect or when GW upper ranks have different ideas that don't communicate down fast enough.
I don't blame the customer service for this, I blame managers/superiors further up the chain who are in charge. IF anything I feel sorry for the customer service staff who have their hands tied and who likely take most of the flack/anger.
Illumini wrote: GW are idiots if they don´t do at the very least a second run when the product sold out in one day. Especially when this is the core of a small product line of expansions.
And despite what many people here seem to think, they are not idiots. You don't make sales and profits at the levels they do by behaving stupidly.
As an investor in GW, I sure hope they are not that stupid
That's what they want you to believe. That way, it's easier to keep selling the lie to the crowd that anyone can succeed.
More seriously, though, it's indeed how their customer service answers : if the website says it's "definitively unavailable", then it is. Until it isn't, and they will never tell you when.
It's all about FOMO and control of information, as usual. The only way to know ? Warhammer Community's articles and the webstore. Make sure to (pre-)order as soon as it's up, you never know for how long it will be available !
It sucks hard for sure, but that's how GW does business nowadays.
That'd be fine if they hadn't been calling it a range item until right before release, at which point they started being all regency coy flirtation about it for some reason. Like, either market for fomo and tell people to get it while it's hot, or say it'll be available long term and then *stick to that*.
Billicus wrote: That'd be fine if they hadn't been calling it a range item until right before release, at which point they started being all regency coy flirtation about it for some reason. Like, either market for fomo and tell people to get it while it's hot, or say it'll be available long term and then *stick to that*.
See, as was going to comment that exact thing. But, you've got to think more deviously. After all, sure, people will buy a product that they know is going to be a one and done deal. BUT, what if we don't tell people our product is a limited time only thing, until it's too late? That way, next time we release a quest game, or any other bundle, people will never know if it's sticking around, and will be more desperate (I mean willing) to buy it, no matter the cost. Sure, we may tell them its sticking around, but isn't that what we did with Cursed city?
Unrelated, but is the End of Game envelope info online anywhere? I know BSF had a random card per envelope, but I want to know what the "canon end" of this game is.
End of the day as mentioned, that’s just another reply added to the many we’ve had on both sides of the coin.
Ignoring all their replies for one side or the other, it seems likely they’d do more, and had that plan from both prior releases and the mentions in the rulebook etc.
Much as I don't want to believe this is a one and done, I don't see why it being one prohibits expansion releases,
after all they sold however many they made and can plan expansion production to match an appropriate fraction of that number
or even sell 'stand alone' expansions with full rules etc (maybe reuse some sculpts, maybe reuse the sculp and give us new poses as we've seen them do in some troop boxes)
The problem is if GW does expansions that require the core set and there is no core set to be bought, it means every time an expansion comes out they will get a huge negative outcry from the segment of their fanbase that is denied a purchase of the core game pack.
So yes the expansions would still sell and they'd likely sell well, but GW would have a running community relations and management issue the whole time.
Now who knows it might be physical store stock is huge and GW will meet demand now that more stores are opening up (at least in the UK). Rather like how Indomitus was still easily accessible well after its release and before the second wave.
Then again part of that might have been that many of those second wave purchasers didn't rush out to buy the core set so it left some on the shelves.
Problem is you wouldn't be able to get the expansions anyway, because they print a fraction of the number of expansions vs the core box. If Cursed City was hard to come by, the expansions will be worth their weight in gold.
Nah, I don‘t believe that Cursed City is limited. It would not make sense with how they‘ve communicated this officially. And customer service clearly is not in the know any more than we are, so they likely just paraphrased what the webstore says.
If Cursed City was limited, it would not benefit GW to stay silent in public about this, and they likely would have said so early on. If it is a regular item, they should have clearly stated it after this question popped up everywhere - after all the product is flying off the shelves regardless. But maybe they‘ve run into supply issues they don‘t want to admit until they can also present the solution. Plus, everybody‘s working from home, so half of them might not be knowing what‘s going on too. I‘m sure there is an official statement somewhere which they‘re not sending out because they‘re not ‚there yet‘.
An example how they did limited boxed game releases in the past: I‘ve got Space Hulk 4th edition, and GW was already fairly clear with 3rd that it was a limited item. That was partly true because later they made the slightly enhanced 4th, which they said was limited too, and so far stuck to that. Then primaris marines happened, so I don‘t think Space Hulk is coming back. But they usually told us, and sold every last box.
If they ever bring back Space Hulk it’ll be because they’ll use it to simultaneously release a new genestealer kit and Primaris Terminators. It’ll be the only way to buy either of those kits for several months.
I had a broken part (without the missing piece in the box) so contacted customer service. The policy seems to have changed as they are saying as I ordered from a third party they are not able to assist me at all in providing a replacement. Up until now they have always been good at helping out.
Given that’s it’s the weapon for a box and not something that is easy to substitute it’s pretty disappointing.
Aeneades wrote: I had a broken part (without the missing piece in the box) so contacted customer service. The policy seems to have changed as they are saying as I ordered from a third party they are not able to assist me at all in providing a replacement. Up until now they have always been good at helping out.
Given that’s it’s the weapon for a box and not something that is easy to substitute it’s pretty disappointing.
That's a very odd change
In the past they've only ever asked for a receipt as proof of sale from 3rd parties. That is unless they want you to return it ot the store you got it from and have the store contact GW direct?
Then again perhaps they just can't use their normal "send a whole new box" policy with this and there aren't many other ways to replace single parts from plastic sprue.
Aeneades wrote: I had a broken part (without the missing piece in the box) so contacted customer service. The policy seems to have changed as they are saying as I ordered from a third party they are not able to assist me at all in providing a replacement. Up until now they have always been good at helping out.
Given that’s it’s the weapon for a box and not something that is easy to substitute it’s pretty disappointing.
That's a very odd change
In the past they've only ever asked for a receipt as proof of sale from 3rd parties. That is unless they want you to return it ot the store you got it from and have the store contact GW direct?
Then again perhaps they just can't use their normal "send a whole new box" policy with this and there aren't many other ways to replace single parts from plastic sprue.
That’s the experience I have always had previously when purchasing from third parties. They even asked for proof of my third party purchase before coming back with the response to go back to the seller. Unfortunately, even if returning the whole box for a replacement was an option, I didn’t see the missing piece until I had already made the models from two of the sprues (started on the generic enemies before moving onto the bosses).
Aeneades wrote: I had a broken part (without the missing piece in the box) so contacted customer service. The policy seems to have changed as they are saying as I ordered from a third party they are not able to assist me at all in providing a replacement. Up until now they have always been good at helping out.
Given that’s it’s the weapon for a box and not something that is easy to substitute it’s pretty disappointing.
That's a very odd change
In the past they've only ever asked for a receipt as proof of sale from 3rd parties. That is unless they want you to return it ot the store you got it from and have the store contact GW direct?
Then again perhaps they just can't use their normal "send a whole new box" policy with this and there aren't many other ways to replace single parts from plastic sprue.
That’s the experience I have always had previously when purchasing from third parties. They even asked for proof of my third party purchase before coming back with the response to go back to the seller. Unfortunately, even if returning the whole box for a replacement was an option, I didn’t see the missing piece until I had already made the models from two of the sprues (started on the generic enemies before moving onto the bosses).
This exact same thing happened to me a while ago. I ordered one of the Kill Team expansions from my local FLFGS but when it arrived the boards were really badly damaged. I contacted GW as they are usually really good and they asked me to take photos of the damage which is also not unusual. However, once they saw my proof of purchase they asked me to go back to the store that sold the item to me and ask them to replace it. This had never happened before and I think it's only really when a product isn't readily available (the Kill Team expansions also sold out in record time). Luckily the store had a spare copy and I swapped but usually GW would have sent me a replacement, no questions asked. And in UK if product is damaged it's usually the manufacturer you contact for a replacement.
Aeneades wrote: I had a broken part (without the missing piece in the box) so contacted customer service. The policy seems to have changed as they are saying as I ordered from a third party they are not able to assist me at all in providing a replacement. Up until now they have always been good at helping out.
My Blackstone Fortress initiative deck is in German for some reason.
When I asked them about a replacement they said I'd have to get one from the place of purchase.
Aeneades wrote: I had a broken part (without the missing piece in the box) so contacted customer service. The policy seems to have changed as they are saying as I ordered from a third party they are not able to assist me at all in providing a replacement. Up until now they have always been good at helping out.
My Blackstone Fortress initiative deck is in German for some reason.
When I asked them about a replacement they said I'd have to get one from the place of purchase.
Had a similar problem when my copy was missing the exploration deck but had two encounter decks instead, and had purchased it from Wayland.
Thankfully, Ebay had a sealed deck for about £2.90. Its not right of course, but it saved a lot of hassle.
To be fair, it's absolutely ridiculus the onus for fixing obvious manufacturer defects is on the very last link in the retail chain by default. Yes, theoretically maybe they can return it to GW for a writeoff eventually, but with FLGS already on razor thin margins it's not something I want to burden them with.
lord_blackfang wrote: To be fair, it's absolutely ridiculus the onus for fixing obvious manufacturer defects is on the very last link in the retail chain by default. Yes, theoretically maybe they can return it to GW for a writeoff eventually, but with FLGS already on razor thin margins it's not something I want to burden them with.
It’s not their onus at all though.
They are the ones who deal with the customer so have to refund or replace. Nothing more.
And yeah they would then deal with where they bought the stock in the first place, but that is easy.
In fact most manufacturers I dealt with refunded in the first instance and stock was sent back to them after that.
You didn’t have to wait for it to be back with them and processed.
(Obviously GW may differ, but I’d be surprised with how big they are)
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StraightSilver wrote: I thought that under UK trading laws the manufacturer had to provide a replacement for faulty goods.
However, it seems that isn't the case (it only applies to products with a warranty).
So if you end up with a damaged set or a set with missing parts than it is the retailer that has to fix this.
That really sucks if the product in question is unavailable before you even receive it......
This means (I guess) you can get a refund but probably not a replacement at the moment.
Indeed, sucks for the customer, it’s neutral for the store.
But you have to think wider than GW (who have their own stores and customer service etc), many manufacturers just make stuff, there is no link to them and the customer, that’s where the distributor and retailer are.
(and if someone says that you cannot claim Monopoly is an objectively bad game, I will lose all faith in people's ability to judge game design 
