warboss wrote: The only problem in the evolving fluff (and if any races in 40k deserve evolving fluff it would be tau and nids) is how they transport it to go along with their theories of mobile warfare. A simple solution would be to create a variant of the manta capable of transporting the larger suits (riptide and up) like the thunderhawk transporter.
Even simpler solution?
Tau built Drop Pod equivalent. It's not like they would not have examples of them at this point in time.
Except that a drop pod doesn't actually solve the problem. It simply gets the unit to the battlefield initially but doesn't help it redeploy at all.
Kanluwen wrote: "Directly counter to previous Tau fluff"? Seriously?
Yes, directly counter to previous Tau fluff. Tau are supposed to be the sensible faction, and they don't do stupid things like make giant anime robots. Crisis suits are fine because they're Starship Troopers style power armor. IOW, human-scale heavy infantry that space marines wish they could be. Once you get bigger than that there's no practical benefit to having a bipedal form and you're left with the massive drawbacks (which, btw, are inherent problems with geometry, not something you can engineer your way out of). This is why the Tau built tanks and aircraft for their heavy units, not giant anime robots. If the Tau are supposed to innovate and develop a heavy artillery unit then it should be a superheavy skimmer, not this thing.
warboss wrote: The only problem in the evolving fluff (and if any races in 40k deserve evolving fluff it would be tau and nids) is how they transport it to go along with their theories of mobile warfare. A simple solution would be to create a variant of the manta capable of transporting the larger suits (riptide and up) like the thunderhawk transporter.
Even simpler solution?
Tau built Drop Pod equivalent. It's not like they would not have examples of them at this point in time.
Except that a drop pod doesn't actually solve the problem. It simply gets the unit to the battlefield initially but doesn't help it redeploy at all.
Remember how there was a post from someone(I believe it was in the "Parting shots from LOW" thread) who talked to FW staff and they mentioned that "Mont'ka" and "Kauyon" aren't the only methods of warfare for the Tau? This might be the first example of Tau adopting a "garrison" mentality, which would be something new. Nothing on that thing seems to be markerlight activated, which is interesting.
In any case, something like this doesn't necessarily need to be highly mobile to be a part of the standard Tau methodology of warfare that we have seen examples of. If you could get it into a position, preplanned, with the supporting elements in place it would allow for a really nasty variant of Kauyon where the bait becomes not an "intentional weak spot" as normal but something that would have to be taken out if one wishes to defeat a Hunter Cadre.
Tau fluff says they do what works, not "they don't do stupid stuff". Once you open the door to anime robots, "stupid stuff" goes out the door as bipedal humanoid is rarely if ever the optimal design. You're simply extrapolating the fluff to suit YOUR preferences, not what is actually written. The riptide fluff said the suit is an advancement in both armor, armament, and powerplant tech for the tau. With the 3rd sphere time shift (moving previously "current" fluff back a few hundred years), it isn't that they didn't want to but rather simply couldn't miniaturize the bigger stuff to fit into bipedal forms. As long as they incorporate a way to transport the bigger suits quickly like my previous manta variant example, the new big guy is completely consistent with the fluff from the past five years or more where tech advancements are allowing bigger suits (xv9, riptide monstrous creatures, and now their first gargantuan) while threats like nids are simultaneously necessitating it.
Edit: Kan snuck in a post while I was pecking away.
@Kan: I agree what you wrote is plausible but my point was seeing how the new big suit could be incorporated into the existing doctrine. A simple sentance or two and a background pic of a new manta variant with a big open bay ala the thawk and valk carrier would be the easiest fix that doesn't require any fundamental change like that.
The thing is a walking fire base. It's half Destroid Monster, half DI Juggernaut. The Riptide and variants are the fast movers, this thing looks like it is a bunker that can relocate as needed. A linchpin for the more mobile units that can move with them (if slower) If they need it to move faster, there is probably a modified Orca transporter for it.
A superheavy skimmer would be just as bad a platform for an artillery piece as this thing in terms of realism- zero contact with the ground means zero bracing. And it would take a lot of energy to keep it skimming. As for a flier artillery, it's the Tigershark AX-1-0 but that is limited by air superiority and loiter time.
Fluff-wise, I bet this thing is the result of reverse engineering some of the knights that they managed to drop on Agrellan. The Riptide was rather successful, but still vulnerable to knights, so they use the knight tech to build a bigger gun-suit to knock out knights before they can get into CC range.
OK, I just got back from the event, so after posting the photo earlier, I thought I'd put up some more info that I learned on the day.
Next(?) IA book is still planned to be Tau... possibly against Imperial Knights (plus some Guard tagging along for the fun of it). Unlikely to be out for a while though ("next year"?).
On the big suit...
Rules totally undecided yet, according to Will, the sculptor. So I'm not sure if the ones listed earlier are accurate - though as it's obviously someone else that writes the rules, maybe they've written them and just not told him, it's possible.
The arms and shoulder weapons are all mounted such that they could be swapped out for other weapons. The shoulder weapons are intended as a kind of railgun, but not the same as the "heavy railguns" we've seen on the AX-1-0 for example... he spoke about this at some length, and had some cool ideas how he imagines them working. He figures that the velocity of a railgun like this could be variable: as well as the high-velocity solid rounds we know of from existing railguns, you could fire a different munition at a much lower velocity and "lob" it like a mortar, or even launch a drone-controlled shell. Flexibility was the key word, he said it several times.
The arm weapons are triple-barrelled rotary ion cannons (again, no idea what that means for their rules). The arms on the model he had on display were magnetised (he actually dropped it while I was talking to him and it fell to bits, I panicked but he was like "nah don't worry about it" and put it back together) and the model will be produced with 6mm/8mm holes in it, so you don't even need to drill your own magnet holes.
He's sculpted alternate arms already (triple fusion guns of some kind I think), but not any more shoulder weapon systems yet. Because the arms are on a magnetised mount, he isn't tied into them all having the same design, and mentioned that one variant could include a "box" of missiles (SMS/MP style) instead of an actual arm holding a gun. The shoulder systems could be different too - there could be two independent weapons (instead of three on a shared axle mount) and those could also include missiles. He sounds quite keen on drone-guided missiles.
The suit has three pilots, and you may be able to see the three entry hatches on the front in the photo: he imagined the central one to be in charge, with lesser ranks either side, much like a Princeps and Moderati for an imperial Titan.
The model will come on the round base shown as it's the largest plastic base they make! He put this model together without thinking about the base, posed differently it ought to fit the base a little bit better. It's a bit hard to tell from the photos how big this model is - it's big. Warhound big? Much bigger than a Knight, anyway.
Oh - it's "with manufacturing", i.e. finished and ready for production. When it will actually go into production and go on sale, he wasn't sure (that depends on when it fits into the release schedule, when they can write rules for it, etc. and is out of the sculptor's hands).
Overall I personally love the model, though I've seen mixed reactions to it in this thread. However - I'm not sure about the three shoulder guns (makes the model look too much "I hear you like guns with your guns" for my taste). A pair of independent missile racks would look much better IMO, and sounds like something that is very likely on the cards - indeed, it looks really cool if you just leave the shoulder weapon off completely, you don't have to have something there if you don't want to! But the arm and body weapons are really cool IMO. I'm very positive about this, and will be buying one.
Thanks for the post quote. Drool..... I was a bit worried about the weapon mounts after having a first release contemptor and then seeing forgeworld release a relic one soon after. The premade magnet holes sound great as does arm missiles (smart missiles?) That make it a mega broadside.
As someone who cares not for practicality and has an obsession with hyper+detailed robots ( I particularly like the circular detailing on the legs), that Tau suit is right up my street.
warboss wrote: Once you open the door to anime robots, "stupid stuff" goes out the door as bipedal humanoid is rarely if ever the optimal design.
Yes, and prior to the idiocy of the Riptide the Tau had left that door shut. The Riptide opened it, and it's only getting worse.
You're simply extrapolating the fluff to suit YOUR preferences, not what is actually written. The riptide fluff said the suit is an advancement in both armor, armament, and powerplant tech for the tau. With the 3rd sphere time shift (moving previously "current" fluff back a few hundred years), it isn't that they didn't want to but rather simply couldn't miniaturize the bigger stuff to fit into bipedal forms. As long as they incorporate a way to transport the bigger suits quickly like my previous manta variant example, the new big guy is completely consistent with the fluff from the past five years or more where tech advancements are allowing bigger suits (xv9, riptide monstrous creatures, and now their first gargantuan) while threats like nids are simultaneously necessitating it.
And the point is that any technology advance (improved armor, compact power plants, etc) that makes the Riptide viable would be even better when applied to a heavy tank. And no, there is no threat that makes giant anime robots necessary or even a good idea.
Peregrine wrote: And the point is that any technology advance (improved armor, compact power plants, etc) that makes the Riptide viable would be even better when applied to a heavy tank. And no, there is no threat that makes giant anime robots necessary or even a good idea.
Firstly, the Rule of Cool wins this argument alone.
Secondly, it's like you haven't even seen Pacfic Rim.
The tau are very adaptable. Maybe fighting the imperium has made them change some tactics. Besides I like the tau primarily using battle suits instead of big tanks. We got super heavy skimmers already. I like the new stuff. When I started the tau when they first came out it was because of the battle suits.
Peregrine wrote: And the point is that any technology advance (improved armor, compact power plants, etc) that makes the Riptide viable would be even better when applied to a heavy tank. And no, there is no threat that makes giant anime robots necessary or even a good idea.
A Heavy ground tank. But Tau have hover-tanks, an already problematic combination in terms of practicality and energy effciency.
Add armor- heavier tank, more energy to keep it off the ground.
Compact advanced power plant- the things are already problematic as far as safety and reliability goes, and a hover tank will be moving around a lot more. And much of that energy increase is still going to keeping the tank floating.
Larger guns- hover tank- no ground contact- no bracing- less accuracy- more weight.
Bipedal war machines are not the most realistic. But neither are hover tanks or combining your small combat spacecraft with a troop lander.
Tau are not based on what is most viable from an outside perspective, but what is functional in universe. They didn't have much experience with large tanks or walkers because they didn't have the need, until running into the outside universe where those types of units have a role, and bipedal war machines have been functional and effective for 10K+ years. So of course the pragmatic Tau are going to imitate the design trend.
TalonZahn wrote: Firstly, the Rule of Cool wins this argument alone.
Not really, because this thing isn't cool.
Secondly, it's like you haven't even seen Pacfic Rim.
You mean the movie with the absolutely ridiculous excuses for why we have to build giant anime robots, despite all of the countless reasons why it's a stupid idea? It's not a bad movie if you want to turn your brain off and watch monsters vs. robots, but that's about it.
MajorWesJanson wrote: A Heavy ground tank. But Tau have hover-tanks, an already problematic combination in terms of practicality and energy effciency.
Add armor- heavier tank, more energy to keep it off the ground.
Compact advanced power plant- the things are already problematic as far as safety and reliability goes, and a hover tank will be moving around a lot more. And much of that energy increase is still going to keeping the tank floating.
Larger guns- hover tank- no ground contact- no bracing- less accuracy- more weight.
All of these things are just as much of a problem for bipedal robots. In fact they're worse for the giant anime robot because of geometry. If you want equivalent levels of protection you need much larger (and heavier) amounts of armor for the giant anime robot, which makes the weight issues even worse. In fact, at some point ground pressure becomes a fatal flaw, the legs sink into the ground, and the whole thing falls over and explodes. Meanwhile the bipedal form is inherently unstable, so the giant anime robot will have to constantly spend energy just to stand upright. And it's in serious danger of knocking itself over every time it fires, which is much worse than the heavy skimmer's recoil problems.
So of course the pragmatic Tau are going to imitate the design trend.
That makes no sense. The Tau are pragmatists and therefore they actually use science and engineering. They recognize that human technology is primitive and governed by religious idiocy, so why should they use that idiocy as inspiration for their own work?
Peregrine wrote: And the point is that any technology advance (improved armor, compact power plants, etc) that makes the Riptide viable would be even better when applied to a heavy tank. And no, there is no threat that makes giant anime robots necessary or even a good idea.
Firstly, the Rule of Cool wins this argument alone.
Secondly, it's like you haven't even seen Pacfic Rim.
Third... who doesn't love giant robots!?
Communists... and the foul creatures of Mordor. That's my guess.
@Peregrine: Did you find anything in the actual game fluff that said that the Tau specifically "dont do stupid things like make giant anime robots"? Or is that officially now just your extrapolation of the simple lack of them previously that was more due to them being a half assed faction with a very limited model range before FW gave them some love?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TalonZahn wrote: Well, it would be awfully hard to model nanobots.
I'm sure palladium could find a way to... as mouth watering multipiece models of course.
warboss wrote: @Peregrine: Did you find anything in the actual game fluff that said that the Tau specifically "dont do stupid things like make giant anime robots"? Or is that officially now just your extrapolation of the simple lack of them previously that was more due to them being a half assed faction with a very limited model range before FW gave them some love?
I don't remember if it was ever explicitly stated, but it was very clear from the list of Tau units: drones, power armor scale battlesuits, light vehicles, heavy tanks/gunships, aircraft, and superheavy aircraft. The only unit class where the Tau had any bipedal units was MEQ-level. Everything else was conventional vehicles, and there wasn't even the slightest hint of giant anime robots. Even in Epic the Tau got a bunch of superheavy tanks and aircraft, and no large battlesuits.
And no, Tau weren't half-assed before the Riptide. They had a full range of models and plenty of fluff. There was no reason at all to add the Riptide or the plastic flyers, other than GW's obsessive need to have new releases even when the fluff doesn't justify them.
Yes, and prior to the idiocy of the Riptide the Tau had left that door shut. The Riptide opened it, and it's only getting worse.
Shut =/= locked as you were previously maintaining. The lack of giant stompy robots doesn't make giant stompy robots impossible; it just means that we haven't been shown them. You filled in the blanks as to why which as a fan is your completely valid choice but just don't pretend that your imagination constitutes canon. They're the newest faction in 40k in terms of fluff/creation and the second newest in terms of when they first got any models (ad mech are now the newest). It's a bit odd to think that they'd be 100% fleshed out in regards to the size of their robots just from the 2004 first codex where they stopped with broadsides. You never new what was behind that door. You may not like it and that is your right. As for the riptide, I think its an ugly model but it didn't open that door; technically the xv9 did since it is noticeably bigger than any suit before it and a visual progression between the xv8/88 (new and old) and the riptide. As long as the fluff gives a way that this new huge suit can be used with the traditional tau mobile warfare tactics (or with a new tactic although I'm not a fan of that choice myself), there is nothing in the fluff that prevents it. Hell, even the fluff that the tigershark or barracuda (can't recall which) in the Taros book that was designed to fight the biggest titans doesn't mean that is the ONLY weapon designed to do so. As stated before, the Tau are one of likely two or three races that are most conducive to actual advancement and this is simply an example of that. It's much worse comparitively in 40k for GW to come out with the various "storm" whatever fliers and the galactica fighter when for 10,000 years/25 years there was only the thunderhawk and stormbird and tech has been stagnating since. Or all the new tanks and dreadnoughts and speeders. That doesn't make much sense since there is a finite limit to how much "lost" tech the imperium can keep finding and suddenly disseminate to all 1,000 chapters and millions of IG regiments. The tau developing a previously unheard of bigger mecha when they've been for 5 years IRL developing successively bigger mecha? That MAKES sense.
warboss wrote: @Peregrine: Did you find anything in the actual game fluff that said that the Tau specifically "dont do stupid things like make giant anime robots"? Or is that officially now just your extrapolation of the simple lack of them previously that was more due to them being a half assed faction with a very limited model range before FW gave them some love?
I don't remember if it was ever explicitly stated, but it was very clear from the list of Tau units: drones, power armor scale battlesuits, light vehicles, heavy tanks/gunships, aircraft, and superheavy aircraft. The only unit class where the Tau had any bipedal units was MEQ-level. Everything else was conventional vehicles, and there wasn't even the slightest hint of giant anime robots. Even in Epic the Tau got a bunch of superheavy tanks and aircraft, and no large battlesuits.
The simple absence of something at one point in time of a game does not preclude it for eternity. GW has steadily been increasing the size of mecha for basically as long as they've been doing ANYTHING for the tau since the original release. xv9, new broadside, new enforcer commander suit, riptide, and now this. No one is forcing you to use the new stuff but don't simply dismiss it as somehow against the fluff just because you don't like it because it isn't. In Heavy Gear, there is a similar type of discussion going on with stuff called gear striders. In that universe, it was absolutely against the fluff for the gear striders to exist when gears, striders, and traditional tanks did and it was flat out said. One small faction got the impractical unit for their own fluff reasons (and according to the original author it was supposed to be a failed experiment in game fluff that wasn't ever picked up by anyone else) but the company decided that everyone gets the big stompy robot because they sell and fluff be damned. That isn't the case here. You filled a vacuum of information with your own reasons and want to hold GW to your own imagination. Canon doesn't work that way.
A lot of cool models there, and happy chaos and 30k getting a lot of love.
Now, as a long time tau player - honestly, while I think its great they are investing time into tau...I don't care for that big suit.
It just looks silly - too many guns - nothing elegant about it.
I mean, how about just a scaled up xv9, or rather, how about just better rules for the tigershark? (its a VERY cool model, but the rules are just terrible...you have to love it to want to play it - I have one, and an orca).
As far as fluffy tau - I am fine with bigger suits, but really, I am fine with better rules for fast striking flyers (yes the manta is too big to use, I am working on one for a client right now) or something.
Oh well, I might be able to take the base model and convert into something that did not look like it was made by a 12 year old sticking 16 lego guns on a robot.
No words. No words at all. They should have sent a poet.
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<sniff> Forgeworld, you understand me. Life with Games Workshop has been so hard. There have been so many disappointments. But maybe, just maybe, you could teach me to love again.
Tau would just imitate design trend because it works? What?
Previously established canon was very specifically that they don't imitate IOM giant robot design, because it's inefficient, a waste of resources, and there are much better options, like strapping a starship class rail gun (that they already have) on a super heavy airframe (they already have) and minimizing the time, effort, and engineering problems involved.
Titans are a giant, silly, edifice. A paragon of inefficiency for the purpose of "man, that's cool." That's the Taus thing, they don't do that. Same reason they don't hold ground, it's pointless when you can just fly away and shoot them some more.
Swift, elite, mobile, efficient. Very VERY much Heinlein Starship Troopers. That's what drew me into Tau.
It appears that GW is changing the canon, and that's fine, just like they did with the Necrons. But don't say it fits into classical Tau background without a giant ret-con.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That thunderhawk on treads is pretty cool though. Hopefully it can carry bikes, or cavalry.
maceria wrote: Tau would just imitate design trend because it works? What?
Previously established canon was very specifically that they don't imitate IOM giant robot design, because it's inefficient, a waste of resources, and there are much better options, like strapping a starship class rail gun (that they already have) on a super heavy airframe (they already have) and minimizing the time, effort, and engineering problems involved.
Titans are a giant, silly, edifice. A paragon of inefficiency for the purpose of "man, that's cool." That's the Taus thing, they don't do that. Same reason they don't hold ground, it's pointless when you can just fly away and shoot them some more.
Swift, elite, mobile, efficient. Very VERY much Heinlein Starship Troopers. That's what drew me into Tau.
It appears that GW is changing the canon, and that's fine, just like they did with the Necrons. But don't say it fits into classical Tau background without a giant ret-con.
While I agree that GW is changing the canon, ANY new unit changes the canon because it creates something that previously did not exist. Can you please cite a source (book and page number) for the above? Namely the part I emphasized. It is possible that I simply missed it somewhere but the only canon I know of is that they simply use non-humanoid vehicles for certain roles, not that they specifically preclude humanoid robots for them. The rest is to my knowledge baggage added on by fans to fill the void about why the anime robots never went above a certain height... which GW has been inching at first then leaping over that fanfic justification line in the sand pretty much from the beginning. Almost every new suit they've come out with since the original 2003 release (other than variants of the original ones) has been sequentially bigger than the previous one and all of them were noticeably bigger than the original plastics that form the basis of this fanfic. The absence of something does NOT prove its illegality nor does it preclude it from ever existing in the future.
The anti-titan Tigershark made no sense because it came out of nowhere (it was that book's Dues Ex Stupidia) and did not show the Tau adapting to IoM technologies. It just showed them having a ready made solution.
Bigger and stompier walkers shows them gradually adapting over time.
I disagree, it was them taking already existing technology (tiger sharks and heavy rail guns) and coming up with a solution. It was designed to adapt to the problem as quickly and cheaply as possible. Mantas were already their thing which really did damage to titans. But mantas were too expensive, and not plentiful enough to be an effective solution. They adapted quickly to make a solution that fit within their combat philosophy. It's not like taping a couple of giant railguns onto a tigershark is a particularity difficult thought process.
Melcavuk wrote: I find the Khorne one pretty good. Imperials pay 15 points for a 6+ to all facings that doesnt work in CC. Chaos pay 50 for a 5++ to all facings, that works in CC, in addition to their ion shields, rerollable number of stomps and upto 6 attacks on the charge.
Wow I actually completely forgot that they get all the special rules for a Daemon with the Daemon Knight upgrades... Whoa.
Co'tor Shas wrote: I disagree, it was them taking already existing technology (tiger sharks and heavy rail guns) and coming up with a solution. It was designed to adapt to the problem as quickly and cheaply as possible. Mantas were already their thing which really did damage to titans. But mantas were too expensive, and not plentiful enough to be an effective solution. They adapted quickly to make a solution that fit within their combat philosophy. It's not like taping a couple of giant railguns onto a tigershark is a particularity difficult thought process.
This kind of "bootstrapping" a solution is very prevalent in modern-day militaries, and I'm unsurprised that what we see as innovation in the defense sector in the 21st century is reflected in the 40k universe (after all, the Titanicus idea of bigger and more guns is better harks back to a day where static, heavily-armed, severely over-costed militaries took precedence over maneuver warfare and tactical operations that we see today). The Tigershark was their short-term solution to pressing needs while their Earth Caste engineers devise a counter to Imperial Titans (which, I won't be surprised, is the rationale used to explain the mega-battlesuit)
Bodacious2182 wrote: Does the Khorne Knight and Chaos knight come as one kit or do I have to buy the Lord of skulls and the Imperial Knight kit in addition? In other words, is what is shown just and upgrade kit or an all in one package?
If somebody already mentioned this I missed it.
I brought both, the Knight comes with all three of the old Knight sprues so you can equip it with either a melta or a battlecannon. The Khorne Knight comes with two plastic sprues from the Dozer, enough to build the entire Khorne Knight but you don't get the tracks or gunk tanks that come with the Dozer kit.
Bodacious2182 wrote: Does the Khorne Knight and Chaos knight come as one kit or do I have to buy the Lord of skulls and the Imperial Knight kit in addition? In other words, is what is shown just and upgrade kit or an all in one package?
If somebody already mentioned this I missed it.
I brought both, the Knight comes with all three of the old Knight sprues so you can equip it with either a melta or a battlecannon. The Khorne Knight comes with two plastic sprues from the Dozer, enough to build the entire Khorne Knight but you don't get the tracks or gunk tanks that come with the Dozer kit.
Oooh. I like that this basically means that a Chaos Knight can be fielded with the Warden kit weapon options... Out of curiosity, does the new top shell still have that little hole where you plug in the Icarus Autocannon/Missile/Rocket pods?
Enigwolf wrote: The Tigershark was their short-term solution to pressing needs while their Earth Caste engineers devise a counter to Imperial Titans (which, I won't be surprised, is the rationale used to explain the mega-battlesuit)
The problem with this theory is that the Tigershark is a better solution than its replacement, and a superheavy railgun skimmer (as the old Epic rules had) would also be better than the current abomination. Also, nothing in the fluff of the Tigershark says that it's a temporary solution. In fact, the opposite is true, as railgun Tigersharks are explicitly seeing more and more use after the initial successes.
Enigwolf wrote: The Tigershark was their short-term solution to pressing needs while their Earth Caste engineers devise a counter to Imperial Titans (which, I won't be surprised, is the rationale used to explain the mega-battlesuit)
The problem with this theory is that the Tigershark is a better solution than its replacement, and a superheavy railgun skimmer (as the old Epic rules had) would also be better than the current abomination. Also, nothing in the fluff of the Tigershark says that it's a temporary solution. In fact, the opposite is true, as railgun Tigersharks are explicitly seeing more and more use after the initial successes.
Nothing in the fluff either suggests that the Tigershark AX 1-0 is the end-all solution to the Titan problem. If anything, they're still only seen in limited numbers for specialized targets. And just because a retrofit seems to work out doesn't mean that it can't see inclusion as standard in battle deployments - we've seen this with Space Marines and Imperial Guard with the relative flexibility of their standardized chassis (Rhino, Leman Russ, Chimera, Land Raider).
We also haven't seen any rules for the new Tau battlesuit nor read any fluff for it, so it's unfair to already call the Tigershark "a better solution than its replacement".
Enigwolf wrote: Nothing in the fluff either suggests that the Tigershark AX 1-0 is the end-all solution to the Titan problem.
It's still a better solution than the giant anime robot. And, as I said, if the Tau want another anti-titan weapon the proper solution is to build a superheavy skimmer like the old Epic rules gave them.
If anything, they're still only seen in limited numbers for specialized targets.
Only because they're new and not yet in full-scale production. The fluff pretty strongly suggests that this is a temporary problem and the railgun Tigershark is intended to be a standard unit in the future.
We also haven't seen any rules for the new Tau battlesuit nor read any fluff for it, so it's unfair to already call the Tigershark "a better solution than its replacement".
It isn't unfair at all, because giant anime robots are inherently stupid. It has massive ground pressure and stability problems, so even if it somehow manages to walk to a fight without getting immobilized in soft ground it will probably fall over and explode as soon as it tries to fire those high-mounted railguns. And if it ever gets shot at the inherent geometry problems of a bipedal form ensure that it will have much thinner armor than a tank of equivalent size. And, unlike the Tigershark, it can't effectively ignore everything but dedicated AA weapons. Finally, it lacks the Tigershark's ability to quickly respond to a titan threat and is completely useless if the titan doesn't come to it.
Now, FW will almost certainly give it powerful rules because they want to sell a bunch of copies of the kit, but that doesn't mean it makes any sense fluff-wise.
Enigwolf wrote: Nothing in the fluff either suggests that the Tigershark AX 1-0 is the end-all solution to the Titan problem.
It's still a better solution than the giant anime robot. And, as I said, if the Tau want another anti-titan weapon the proper solution is to build a superheavy skimmer like the old Epic rules gave them.
If anything, they're still only seen in limited numbers for specialized targets.
Only because they're new and not yet in full-scale production. The fluff pretty strongly suggests that this is a temporary problem and the railgun Tigershark is intended to be a standard unit in the future.
Enigwolf wrote:And just because a retrofit seems to work out doesn't mean that it can't see inclusion as standard in battle deployments
It isn't unfair at all, because giant anime robots are inherently stupid. It has massive ground pressure and stability problems, so even if it somehow manages to walk to a fight without getting immobilized in soft ground it will probably fall over and explode as soon as it tries to fire those high-mounted railguns. And if it ever gets shot at the inherent geometry problems of a bipedal form ensure that it will have much thinner armor than a tank of equivalent size. And, unlike the Tigershark, it can't effectively ignore everything but dedicated AA weapons. Finally, it lacks the Tigershark's ability to quickly respond to a titan threat and is completely useless if the titan doesn't come to it.
Now, FW will almost certainly give it powerful rules because they want to sell a bunch of copies of the kit, but that doesn't mean it makes any sense fluff-wise.
For the record, I dislike giant anime robots, and absolutely abhor them. When I ran Tau as allies for my Grey Knights, I was converting them to Adeptus Mechanicus Skitarii and Legio Cybernetica instead (pre-Skitarii and CM 'dexes).
You can say what you want about bipedal forms all you want, but the Eldar and Imperium have proved that Titan warfare are completely viable forms of warfare in the 40k universe. If you're arguing inherently about proportions, then it's not impossible to also assume that Tau technology is advanced enough to counter any issues a bipedal form may have. Your point about armor is rendered moot by, again, Imperial and Eldar titans, which have technologies to provide equivalent, if not superior forms of defense than simple tonnes of armour plating (Void shields and holofields respectively). In fact, the argument about ground pressure and stability is irrelevant when fighting in lower than 1-G environments, because now you can no longer apply Earth physics to the equation in a comparative manner. Walkers have an inherent advantage over tanks due to mobility. Which brings us back to Tau hover tanks.
We also don't know how Tau repulsion technology works, which also potentially runs counter to your argument of equivalent armour tonnage on a similar-mass vehicle chassis. It suffers from the same problem that modern jets do - propulsion requires fuel, which creates extra weight that then needs more propulsion, and thus, more fuel. As a result of this, you might not be able to slap on as much armour as you would on a tracked vehicle.
Long post short: There are too many unknowns for you to definitely claim whether a giant Tau battlesuit is a "better solution" or not for the Tau.
Re-emphasis: I hate giant anime robots, aesthetically.
Bodacious2182 wrote: Does the Khorne Knight and Chaos knight come as one kit or do I have to buy the Lord of skulls and the Imperial Knight kit in addition? In other words, is what is shown just and upgrade kit or an all in one package?
If somebody already mentioned this I missed it.
I brought both, the Knight comes with all three of the old Knight sprues so you can equip it with either a melta or a battlecannon. The Khorne Knight comes with two plastic sprues from the Dozer, enough to build the entire Khorne Knight but you don't get the tracks or gunk tanks that come with the Dozer kit.
Oooh. I like that this basically means that a Chaos Knight can be fielded with the Warden kit weapon options... Out of curiosity, does the new top shell still have that little hole where you plug in the Icarus Autocannon/Missile/Rocket pods?
Yes it does have the hole, which is one of the reasons I was disapointed that we only got the old sprues.
Bodacious2182 wrote: Does the Khorne Knight and Chaos knight come as one kit or do I have to buy the Lord of skulls and the Imperial Knight kit in addition? In other words, is what is shown just and upgrade kit or an all in one package?
If somebody already mentioned this I missed it.
I brought both, the Knight comes with all three of the old Knight sprues so you can equip it with either a melta or a battlecannon. The Khorne Knight comes with two plastic sprues from the Dozer, enough to build the entire Khorne Knight but you don't get the tracks or gunk tanks that come with the Dozer kit.
Oooh. I like that this basically means that a Chaos Knight can be fielded with the Warden kit weapon options... Out of curiosity, does the new top shell still have that little hole where you plug in the Icarus Autocannon/Missile/Rocket pods?
Yes it does have the hole, which is one of the reasons I was disapointed that we only got the old sprues.
For how much you're paying over a regular Knight kit, that's such a pity.
Disclaimer #1: I love the Tigershark model and I think it makes perfect sense as an anti-Titan weapon.
Disclaimer #2: I'd love to see FW do some more Tau tanks and/or aircraft. Wouldn't even need to be super-heavy necessarily, just heavier than the Hammerhead (think Landraider plus sized).
Having got those in, my first reaction to that new suit was "holy s@!t, that's awesome!" From a fluff point of view, I don't think this is for fighting the imperium, I see this as being an anti-Tyranids platform, as someone suggested a few pages ago.
I just have a vision in my mind of this thing standing alone in a sea of gribblies (a la Starship Troopers), with all those secondary weapons annihilating the hordes trying to climb up its legs whilst the main guns blast away at the monstrosities. To me that gives it a justifiable reason to exist; normal infantry aren't going to survive in that environment and tanks without infantry are dead meat. And a few strafing passes by a Tigershark just aren't going to put down anywhere near enough volume of firepower to deal with a horde.
Enigwolf wrote: You can say what you want about bipedal forms all you want, but the Eldar and Imperium have proved that Titan warfare are completely viable forms of warfare in the 40k universe.
Viable, if you're stubborn enough to do it? Maybe. A good idea? No. What the Eldar and Imperium have done is prove that, with sufficiently advanced technology, you can let your idiot priests build their walking religious icons and they'll function. Both factions would still be better off abandoning the religious idiocy and building proper weapons with that advanced technology*. And of course the Tau have neither religion nor idiot priests to appease, so making a titan would be stupid.
*Not that they ever would, of course, which is part of their identity in 40k.
If you're arguing inherently about proportions, then it's not impossible to also assume that Tau technology is advanced enough to counter any issues a bipedal form may have.
No, you can't make that assumption because these are basic problems of geometry. A bipedal shape has more surface area than a tank with equivalent internal components (gun, sensors, etc), so if you have the same weight budget for armor the tank will have much thicker armor. A bipedal shape is inherently unstable because it has very little, if any, range of motion available before its center of gravity moves outside of its contact points. Etc. Advanced technology can build you a walker that "works" despite these problems (active stabilization systems, etc) but it's still going to be laughably inefficient compared to more sensible designs.
Your point about armor is rendered moot by, again, Imperial and Eldar titans, which have technologies to provide equivalent, if not superior forms of defense than simple tonnes of armour plating (Void shields and holofields respectively).
Both void shields and holofields would be even more effective on a tank.
In fact, the argument about ground pressure and stability is irrelevant when fighting in lower than 1-G environments, because now you can no longer apply Earth physics to the equation in a comparative manner.
Of course you can apply Earth physics, you just have a slightly different value for g. The stability and ground pressure problems still exist, they just have different numbers involved. And of course 40k also has higher-gravity environments where ground pressure is even more of a problem than it would be in the real world.
Walkers have an inherent advantage over tanks due to mobility.
No they don't. Walkers have terrible mobility because of ground pressure and stability issues. The tank will probably be faster and will certainly be capable of operating on a wider range of terrain. The only reason walkers have a mobility advantage is that game designers needed a reason to justify their existence and decided on mobility.
It suffers from the same problem that modern jets do - propulsion requires fuel, which creates extra weight that then needs more propulsion, and thus, more fuel. As a result of this, you might not be able to slap on as much armour as you would on a tracked vehicle.
So build a tracked vehicle then. It's still going to be better in every way than the giant anime robot.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jadenim wrote: And a few strafing passes by a Tigershark just aren't going to put down anywhere near enough volume of firepower to deal with a horde.
Then you drop a tactical nuke. Or send a Manta to hover over the swarm and laugh as you slaughter the helpless Tyranids.
If you're arguing inherently about proportions, then it's not impossible to also assume that Tau technology is advanced enough to counter any issues a bipedal form may have.
No, you can't make that assumption because these are basic problems of geometry. A bipedal shape has more surface area than a tank with equivalent internal components (gun, sensors, etc), so if you have the same weight budget for armor the tank will have much thicker armor. A bipedal shape is inherently unstable because it has very little, if any, range of motion available before its center of gravity moves outside of its contact points. Etc. Advanced technology can build you a walker that "works" despite these problems (active stabilization systems, etc) but it's still going to be laughably inefficient compared to more sensible designs.
I'm not arguing that bipedal vehicles would require more conventional armour and thus more tonnage for equivalent armour. I'm arguing that defensive tactics that isn't armour-centric validates the possibility of using a walker to counter a biped's inherent disadvantages - such as armour tonnage. Holofields and void shields make sense for walkers.
Your point about armor is rendered moot by, again, Imperial and Eldar titans, which have technologies to provide equivalent, if not superior forms of defense than simple tonnes of armour plating (Void shields and holofields respectively).
Both void shields and holofields would be even more effective on a tank.
Justification? A walker has a FAR bigger range of movement than a tank - defensive tactics that revolve around dodging attacks, aka holofields, capitalizes on this.
In fact, the argument about ground pressure and stability is irrelevant when fighting in lower than 1-G environments, because now you can no longer apply Earth physics to the equation in a comparative manner.
Of course you can apply Earth physics, you just have a slightly different value for g. The stability and ground pressure problems still exist, they just have different numbers involved. And of course 40k also has higher-gravity environments where ground pressure is even more of a problem than it would be in the real world.
Read the end of my statement, in a comparative manner. A low-G environment can negate the stability issues. I'm not even going into the physics for this, Google it.
Walkers have an inherent advantage over tanks due to mobility.
No they don't. Walkers have terrible mobility because of ground pressure and stability issues. The tank will probably be faster and will certainly be capable of operating on a wider range of terrain. The only reason walkers have a mobility advantage is that game designers needed a reason to justify their existence and decided on mobility.
Ask any soldier what's more mobile, particularly in tight spaces, and he'll tell you for sure that anything with two feet is more maneuverable than something on tracks.
While bipeds can sidestep and change direction of movement near-instantaneously (given the constraints of momentum, which, I might add, any moving piece of mass would also be subject to, including tanks), tracked vehicles are unable to do the same. In fact, tracked vehicles take a ridiculously long time to come to a new heading (trust me, my infantry platoon was mechanized), that is why infantry are the bane of armored vehicles in urban operations. Hover-tanks would eliminate this issue, but I refer to my next point about hover-tanks.
(I'm not arguing that a tank, however, is superior for maneuver warfare over large pieces of open terrain.)
It suffers from the same problem that modern jets do - propulsion requires fuel, which creates extra weight that then needs more propulsion, and thus, more fuel. As a result of this, you might not be able to slap on as much armour as you would on a tracked vehicle.
So build a tracked vehicle then. It's still going to be better in every way than the giant anime robot.
I refer you back to the last point about walker mobility over that of tracked vehicles.
At the end of the day, you cannot argue that a walker, a tracked vehicle, or a hover-tank of similar tonnage is the "best" out of the three. Each has their own advantages and disadvantages, and it is up to the factions/races/scientists/engineers involved to decide what is most relevant for them.
whalemusic360 wrote: Did they say anything about the other Warlord guns and heads, or better yet show something?
Aww yis. That is the head I will have. Any info on it beyond the photo?
Apparantly they aren't sure if they want to release the alternative one shown at the last event (the really retro one; I don't really care I thought it looked stupid), Darren Parwood has like a whole sketchbook of designs for them. That's all I could find though, no timeframes or anything.
Enigwolf wrote: A walker has a FAR bigger range of movement than a tank - defensive tactics that revolve around dodging attacks, aka holofields, capitalizes on this.
It only has a bigger range of movement if you handwave away all of the stability and ground pressure problems. And even then you can still build a flyer/skimmer/etc (like the Eldar do) that is also capable of dodging, and can do it better than the walker.
A low-G environment can negate the stability issues.
No it can't. It can reduce the problem a bit, but it's not going to have any significant effect unless you're talking about an environment well outside of the normal 1g. And while those environments do exist in 40k they're not even close to the standard. So you're talking about designing a giant anime robot specifically for a very narrow range of potential battles, instead of just building a sensible weapon which can also function in normal-gravity environments.
Ask any soldier what's more mobile, particularly in tight spaces, and he'll tell you for sure that anything with two feet is more maneuverable than something on tracks.
Yes, but that's because humans and their feet are below the point where scaling becomes a problem. We're very mobile because the ground pressure of our feet is way below the maximum tolerance of most surfaces, we're small enough that the square-cube law isn't a fatal problem, and we have millions of years of evolution giving us constant active stabilization without any conscious thought. Giant anime robots, on the other hand, are on the wrong end of those scaling issues.
While bipeds can sidestep and change direction of movement near-instantaneously (given the constraints of momentum, which, I might add, any moving piece of mass would also be subject to, including tanks), tracked vehicles are unable to do the same.
It's not just the momentum you have to overcome, you have to consider ground pressure and inertia as you come out of the sidestep. If your giant anime robot moves too quickly the ground pressure of its feet spikes and it digs into the ground, probably with fatal consequences. And if you survive the initial spike of starting the sidestep you have another huge spike of ground pressure when you have to stop all those tons of metal before you overshoot and lose your balance. And you have to make sure that your giant anime robot's structure can survive that sudden load spike as its foot smashes into the ground. So the giant anime robot would have to be incredibly slow and careful about every step to ensure that it doesn't crash.
I refer you back to the last point about walker mobility over that of tracked vehicles.
And I refer you back to the previous point about walker mobility being game mechanics nonsense from designers who needed a gameplay role for walkers, not a plausible thing fluff-wise.
At the end of the day, you cannot argue that a walker, a tracked vehicle, or a hover-tank of similar tonnage is the "best" out of the three.
Sure I can. Large walkers are fundamentally stupid and only "work" if you handwave away all of their massive and inherent design problems. There is no plausible scenario where building giant anime robots is a good idea.
ImAGeek wrote:It doesn't really matter does it. Some people like it, some don't, this has gone on for 2/3 pages now.
BrookM wrote:To some it is a matter so serious that they are willing to debate it until the mods warn them several times to finally drop it.
I'd argue the last 2/3 pages of discussing the relative merits/demerits of Forge World producing a new Tau superheavy walker where previous design ethos and background has dictated that such things do not exist and are antithetical to the Tau way of war is more constructive and interesting than either of your posts and entirely appropriate for a Forge World News & Rumours thread, or would you rather three pages of "I like this" and "I don't like this"?
The Tau explicitly NOT having superheavy walkers was a really nice part of their background that set them apart from all the other races and defied the expectations of everyone who assumed that the obviously anime-inspired Tau would naturally have Gundams to counter the other races' giant bipedal (or hexapedal) walkers.
This? this does away with that unique distinguishing characteristic. Well done on removing one of the few pieces of Tau background and design ethos I actually liked, GW.
The Chaos Titan design is horrible, but the rules are OK. like every other chaos player I would have liked options for the other types of knights and carapace weapons but giving us a 5+ all-round save in addition to the Ion Shield and letting us take Legacies of Ruin on them is nice. It's good that all the Chaos knight conversions that have been popping up can now be represented (but I'm not a massive fan of Lords of War)
the Kytan's a bit underwhelming, one ranged weapon, a big hacky cleaver, seems a bit boring. I would have liked a new generic Daemon Engine of which the Kytan was one possible version, but it doesnt really affect me anyway
With all this talk about walkers versus tanks, I think people have lost sight of the real issues here...
...such as whether a Star Destroyer's turbolasers are more powerful than the Enterprise's phasers. Or whether Goku is scientifically stronger than Superman.
Seriously though, arguing semantics about the designs really misses out on the fantasy part of "science-fantasy", the genre behind 40k. If the 40k world says bipedal walkers are an acceptable solution, then it is so. You may think it's stupid, and you may not like the aesthetics, but following that up with "because..." is equally silly, since the canon can simply make up a fantasy response.
That being said, the new walker is okay... but I would have rather it been on a big skimmer tank, like a taller, beefier hammerhead.
Xca|iber wrote: With all this talk about walkers versus tanks, I think people have lost sight of the real issues here...
...such as whether a Star Destroyer's turbolasers are more powerful than the Enterprise's phasers. Or whether Goku is scientifically stronger than Superman.
Seriously though, arguing semantics about the designs really misses out on the fantasy part of "science-fantasy", the genre behind 40k. If the 40k world says bipedal walkers are an acceptable solution, then it is so. You may think it's stupid, and you may not like the aesthetics, but following that up with "because..." is equally silly, since the canon can simply make up a fantasy response.
That being said, the new walker is okay... but I would have rather it been on a big skimmer tank, like a taller, beefier hammerhead.
I agree with the last three posts. So, I'll agree to disagree with Peregrine (not sure what exactly I'm disagreeing on, since each design has its own strengths and merits).
Like Charax, I'm not entirely sure how I feel about FW's shift to "lots of big walkers", though, particularly as it relates to the Tau aesthetic. I would definitely have much preferred something along the lines of the Eldar super-heavy grav-tanks like the Lynx.
I actually really like the new Tau titan. It feels like a Riptide version of the Broadsides. Whereas the Riptide, Rvarna and the other one (with triple flamers) are all upsized and uparmoured Crisis and Stealth suits, focused on mobility and speed for as much firepower, this looks like an upsized Broadside. The over the shoulder weapons are like the classic broadsides in 4th/5th that were just add-ons to the Crisis Suit, while the bully chest and legs are like the newer Broadsides. It looks like it would move so slower but when it looks at you, you know you arenin trouble.
A Big skimmer would have made more sense, although I don't know what this new tau gundam is meant to counter MEQ spam or whatever (maybe a lack of FW orders from Japan?).
Maybe the designers see that as more Eldar's thing, but even so Tau have traditionally been more air power based, they made the manta, so if something flying is too much why not a hovering gunship like a better valkyrie might have worked.
Xca|iber wrote: That being said, the new walker is okay... but I would have rather it been on a big skimmer tank, like a taller, beefier hammerhead.
I think that quote of mine in your sig works very well here.
It really does.
I look forward to the day when FW releases the "Imperator-Dominus-Ultima-Pattern Emperor Titan" - just a pair of $3000 plastic boots that you put on and then stomp across the table with. You'll be able to proxy them with these. It will be the pinnacle of giant stompy robots.
Xca|iber wrote: With all this talk about walkers versus tanks, I think people have lost sight of the real issues here...
...such as whether a Star Destroyer's turbolasers are more powerful than the Enterprise's phasers. Or whether Goku is scientifically stronger than Superman.
Seriously though, arguing semantics about the designs really misses out on the fantasy part of "science-fantasy", the genre behind 40k. If the 40k world says bipedal walkers are an acceptable solution, then it is so. You may think it's stupid, and you may not like the aesthetics, but following that up with "because..." is equally silly, since the canon can simply make up a fantasy response.
That being said, the new walker is okay... but I would have rather it been on a big skimmer tank, like a taller, beefier hammerhead.
The particulars of this change aside; this line of argument really irritates me. There is a substantial distinction between realism and internal consistency. Good fiction does not need to be strictly realistic, particularly sci-fi/sci-fantasy, but if the fiction contains a device that works a certain way or a faction that holds to a certain philosophy or style etc, the author doesn't get to use "lulz fantasy dawg" as an excuse to suddenly have the device work completely differently or the faction to change their behaviour due to reasons entirely outwith the narrative and setting(such as "Damn, I've written myself into a corner here, rather than rewrite the last two chapters I'll just deploy the power of FANTASY! and chuck in an implausible deus ex machina that completely contradicts my earlier narrative! Boom, deadline hit!" or "I really, really want to sell lots of big expensive Weeb-bait walkers, but the established background doesn't support that - but, with the power of FANTASY! I can just completely ignore the stuff I already wrote, Huzzah! Money plox").
You can write fiction that is as ridiculously implausible as you like relative to reality, but if you want it to be good fiction you have to write it with consistency.
Anyone ever thought that the reason the Tau are getting a Titan is because of the need or the players for more ease of use?
Super Heavy fliers are not easy to move about on the battlefield or transport. Really, they should only be seen in apocalypse games where other such huge things are moping about on the board.
A walker is easier to utilise on the field. Yeah they could have gone with a super heavy hover tank, but maybe they want to leave them with just the Eldar, and again maybe they weren't practical for the user on the table top.
Fireball wrote: I just read that Perturabo was Edgar Skomorowski's last work and he will leave FW ... that will delay the Primarch output again.
Eidolon was the last model he did before he left apparantly. He's left to move to Paris where most of his family are I read.
Ah, ok. I like the Eidolon model even more than Perturabo. Sad to see him go. Hopefully FW has enough talent to pick up the slack - if not Primarchs, then at least for the other special characters.
I WANT PERTURABO!!!! Looks glorious IMHO! Just like the lord of Iron should... and as for the Mastodon Carrier Super Tank .... this will haunt my dreams...... until I can save the £500 or so pounds I expect it may cost! .... (maybe not £500) but might not be to far off?
Still treating the Dark Eldar like the wheezing fat kid at the party? Check.
More 30k models consisting of the same SM as always, this time in a funny hat? Check.
Tanks with guns on their guns on their guns? Check.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Anyone ever thought that the reason the Tau are getting a Titan is because of the need or the players for more ease of use?
Super Heavy fliers are not easy to move about on the battlefield or transport. Really, they should only be seen in apocalypse games where other such huge things are moping about on the board.
A walker is easier to utilise on the field. Yeah they could have gone with a super heavy hover tank, but maybe they want to leave them with just the Eldar, and again maybe they weren't practical for the user on the table top.
You're not wrong! I have used my Thunderhawk once in 4 years! Its an awesome display piece but the massive weight of it and the big flying base it needs makes it a bitch to game with.
I kinda wish I got a Reaver instead as I am sure it would have been used more.
As mentioned before.. Alan Bligh, alongside Daren Parrwood and Blake Spence are all keen to develope the Tau War Paradigm beyond that of just the Kauyon and Mont'au strategies... this is leading to not just this suit, but also a likely Superheavy Skimmer/ Tank that is a more suitable heavy platform, but on a scale for the long lost Orca.
It's Mont'ka. Mont'au is bad, it's like the Tau apocalypse, referring to the time when the race almost destroyed itself.
But whatever, nice to see they're still thinking about doing tanks again. Why is the Orca gone, though?
Jimsolo wrote: Still treating the Dark Eldar like the wheezing fat kid at the party? Check. More 30k models consisting of the same SM as always, this time in a funny hat? Check.
Tanks with guns on their guns on their guns? Check.
Stay classy, Forgeworld.
Do you realise why that is? They can't make cool models for the DE because there are material limitations. They had enough problems making the Tantalus, anything thinner isn't strong enough, anything larger becomes unstable. Sure, it would be nice to have all sorts of cool vehicles/creatures like most other armies, but apart from some massive beast, they're restricted by the material they make their models in.
Still cannot bring myself to like that Kytan khorne thingy, The legs just don't look right to me, although I guess that encapsulates chaos just right !
Rayvon wrote: Still cannot bring myself to like that Kytan khorne thingy, The legs just don't look right to me, although I guess that encapsulates chaos just right !
Rayvon wrote: Still cannot bring myself to like that Kytan khorne thingy, The legs just don't look right to me, although I guess that encapsulates chaos just right !
I much prefer it with legs than tracks.
I thought it would look better with legs, but not those legs !!
Im not really a fan of the tractor thingy either mind, its not often they put out something I do not like though, was about due I guess.
Those decals are pretty awesome too, bet they will cost a pretty penny.
Rayvon wrote: Still cannot bring myself to like that Kytan khorne thingy, The legs just don't look right to me, although I guess that encapsulates chaos just right !
I much prefer it with legs than tracks.
I thought it would look better with legs, but not those legs !!
Im not really a fan of the tractor thingy either mind, its not often they put out something I do not like though, was about due I guess.
Those decals are pretty awesome too, bet they will cost a pretty penny.
Yeah same here haha, I think Sigismund was my disliked model for the next 6 months or so probably. And the transfers I imagine will be £16, that's what my UM ones were, that's for an A4 sized sheet with tonnes on it, I dunno if that's good or not..?
Rayvon wrote: Still cannot bring myself to like that Kytan khorne thingy, The legs just don't look right to me, although I guess that encapsulates chaos just right !
I think it's because the legs are too thin and long for his big, bulky upper body to sit on. Just looks kinda weird. It's not really that bad though, and it's an improvement over the plastic kit with the treads.
ace101 wrote: Is it me or is that Mastedon the cheaper-than-a-Land Raider transport CSM are looking for? Looks, intriguing, like an extended Sicarian chassis.
It'll be more than a Land Raider. It's bigger (30-40 transport apparantly) and has two void shields on the top.
I'm fairly certain it will not be cheaper than a land raider. Probably even more expensive than a Spartan. And it is supposed to look like a Sicaran (a Sicarian is an AdMech model) crossed with a land raider.
Sidstyler wrote: I think it's because the legs are too thin and long for his big, bulky upper body to sit on. Just looks kinda weird. It's not really that bad though, and it's an improvement over the plastic kit with the treads.
You're right. The top is a little too big for the bottom half. Still, I really like him.
Sidstyler wrote: I think it's because the legs are too thin and long for his big, bulky upper body to sit on. Just looks kinda weird. It's not really that bad though, and it's an improvement over the plastic kit with the treads.
You're right. The top is a little too big for the bottom half. Still, I really like him.
I think it needs something to blend the torso into the legs a bit better. I'm thinking something along the lines of the armour that Samurais hang from their waists to protect their upper legs. I have no idea of the correct terminology.
Jimsolo wrote: Still treating the Dark Eldar like the wheezing fat kid at the party? Check.
More 30k models consisting of the same SM as always, this time in a funny hat? Check.
Tanks with guns on their guns on their guns? Check.
Stay classy, Forgeworld.
Not the wheezing fat kid at the party. More like the emo kid wearing bondage gear and being anti-social
I'm please to see RG transfers, as the new ones since Jes' daughter started on them have been a leap forward, and as RG already had a sheet, there may be a chance that others (specifically EC in my case) may get a fancy update too.
Wait, the legs alone cost more than the Lord Of Skulls kit alone.
Have they lost their mind
$140.50 usd - KYTAN DAEMON ENGINE OF KHORNE
$160 .00 usd - GW KHORNE LORD OF SKULLS (Also I paid a lot less for this kit average p[rice online is around $125.00 usd)
Sammoth wrote: Wait, the legs alone cost more than the Lord Of Skulls kit alone.
Have they lost their mind
$140.50 usd - KYTAN DAEMON ENGINE OF KHORNE
$160 .00 usd - GW KHORNE LORD OF SKULLS (Also I paid a lot less for this kit average p[rice online is around $125.00 usd)
Uhhh no, I'll keep my treads for that price.
No, the FW one has the plastic parts for the upper body too.
Sammoth wrote: Wait, the legs alone cost more than the Lord Of Skulls kit alone.
Have they lost their mind
$140.50 usd - KYTAN DAEMON ENGINE OF KHORNE
$160 .00 usd - GW KHORNE LORD OF SKULLS (Also I paid a lot less for this kit average p[rice online is around $125.00 usd)
Uhhh no, I'll keep my treads for that price.
You understand that the Kytan includes the Lord of Skulls, right?
The Kytan Daemon Engine of Khorne is a multi-part resin and plastic kit. It is highly detailed and incredibly posable, standing 20cm tall when built fully upright. This kit includes a 170mm oval base.
How much of the Lord of Skulls it includes, I don't know. Is the torso and weapons all on one sprue or are they scattered?
Sammoth wrote: Wait, the legs alone cost more than the Lord Of Skulls kit alone.
Have they lost their mind
$140.50 usd - KYTAN DAEMON ENGINE OF KHORNE
$160 .00 usd - GW KHORNE LORD OF SKULLS (Also I paid a lot less for this kit average p[rice online is around $125.00 usd)
Uhhh no, I'll keep my treads for that price.
You understand that the Kytan includes the Lord of Skulls, right?
The Kytan Daemon Engine of Khorne is a multi-part resin and plastic kit. It is highly detailed and incredibly posable, standing 20cm tall when built fully upright. This kit includes a 170mm oval base.
How much of the Lord of Skulls it includes, I don't know. Is the torso and weapons all on one sprue or are they scattered?
Oh I did not know that. Ok then that's not a bad deal at all lol.
Sidstyler wrote: I think it's because the legs are too thin and long for his big, bulky upper body to sit on. Just looks kinda weird. It's not really that bad though, and it's an improvement over the plastic kit with the treads.
You're right. The top is a little too big for the bottom half. Still, I really like him.
I think it needs something to blend the torso into the legs a bit better. I'm thinking something along the lines of the armour that Samurais hang from their waists to protect their upper legs. I have no idea of the correct terminology.
Perturabo looks excellent. He looks absolutely solid. The pose is brilliant too. I wonder what the Iron Circle will look like?
Eidolon is really interesting as well. He looks a bit like the newest Dark Eldar Haemonculus - with the hair hanging down on one side. I hated that model, but the same effect works really well on Eidolon.
Getting a closer look at the Kytan's legs.. there isn't anything Khorne specific on them... I wonder if FW plans on make some other upper halves in resin to go with those legs, maybe for some other chaos gods.
Getting a closer look at the Kytan's legs.. there isn't anything Khorne specific on them... I wonder if FW plans on make some other upper halves in resin to go with those legs, maybe for some other chaos gods.
Getting a closer look at the Kytan's legs.. there isn't anything Khorne specific on them... I wonder if FW plans on make some other upper halves in resin to go with those legs, maybe for some other chaos gods.
For sure, I think its transition between the top and bottom half is the dodgy part and your example is definitely an improvement to my eye.
Thats is definitely my conclusion... I think with regular legs though it would look better still. I think once you see it painted much of that contrast and need for transition will go away.
He's already got a giant symbol of Khorne for his head and he has 2 plates with the mark of Khorne on too. I suspect they left the legs largely untouched so you could illustrate which warband he belongs to?
I want to see a scale lineup with the plastic knight, Kytan, and Cerastus in a row. If, as it appears from the base sizes, the Kytan legs fall nicely in-between the two then I'll probably pick one up - the legs would be de-Chaosified and used with a modified plastic Knight torso to make a Baron/Lancer that isn't as ridiculously oversized as the Cerastus pattern chassis, then I can combine the plastic legs with the LoS torso & arms to get a Knight of Khorne.
Tank_Dweller wrote: I think it needs something to blend the torso into the legs a bit better. I'm thinking something along the lines of the armour that Samurais hang from their waists to protect their upper legs. I have no idea of the correct terminology.
I don't think it's the 'blending' so much as the long gangly waist makes him look a little spindly.
Xca|iber wrote: With all this talk about walkers versus tanks, I think people have lost sight of the real issues here...
...such as whether a Star Destroyer's turbolasers are more powerful than the Enterprise's phasers. Or whether Goku is scientifically stronger than Superman.
Seriously though, arguing semantics about the designs really misses out on the fantasy part of "science-fantasy", the genre behind 40k. If the 40k world says bipedal walkers are an acceptable solution, then it is so. You may think it's stupid, and you may not like the aesthetics, but following that up with "because..." is equally silly, since the canon can simply make up a fantasy response.
That being said, the new walker is okay... but I would have rather it been on a big skimmer tank, like a taller, beefier hammerhead.
The particulars of this change aside; this line of argument really irritates me. There is a substantial distinction between realism and internal consistency. Good fiction does not need to be strictly realistic, particularly sci-fi/sci-fantasy, but if the fiction contains a device that works a certain way or a faction that holds to a certain philosophy or style etc, the author doesn't get to use "lulz fantasy dawg" as an excuse to suddenly have the device work completely differently or the faction to change their behaviour due to reasons entirely outwith the narrative and setting(such as "Damn, I've written myself into a corner here, rather than rewrite the last two chapters I'll just deploy the power of FANTASY! and chuck in an implausible deus ex machina that completely contradicts my earlier narrative! Boom, deadline hit!" or "I really, really want to sell lots of big expensive Weeb-bait walkers, but the established background doesn't support that - but, with the power of FANTASY! I can just completely ignore the stuff I already wrote, Huzzah! Money plox").
You can write fiction that is as ridiculously implausible as you like relative to reality, but if you want it to be good fiction you have to write it with consistency.
Oh I agree with you. I was replying to the realism arguments; the stuff about walker foot pressure and the benefits of using tracked or hover vehicles from a physics standpoint. That is silly to me, since we have tons of fluff stating that giant walkers are a good, decent solution to certain warfare problems in the 40k universe (re: all of the titans, biotitans, etc). In other words: big walkers work within the framework of 40k. Tau having one does not somehow invalidate that.
Now, whether that's consistent with their lore is another story. Based on original publications, I'd say we're looking at (overall, since the Riptide) a level of change equal to the massive Necron re-write back in 5th. Lord knows from a consistency standpoint, there's enough retcons in there to give my grandchildren a migraine. Is it stupid? Yeah. But hey, I'd also like to unwrite Draigo's mary-sue ass right out of my GK book, so this kind of BS is pretty par for the course nowadays.
The particulars of this change aside; this line of argument really irritates me. There is a substantial distinction between realism and internal consistency. Good fiction does not need to be strictly realistic, particularly sci-fi/sci-fantasy, but if the fiction contains a device that works a certain way or a faction that holds to a certain philosophy or style etc, the author doesn't get to use "lulz fantasy dawg" as an excuse to suddenly have the device work completely differently or the faction to change their behaviour due to reasons entirely outwith the narrative and setting(such as "Damn, I've written myself into a corner here, rather than rewrite the last two chapters I'll just deploy the power of FANTASY! and chuck in an implausible deus ex machina that completely contradicts my earlier narrative! Boom, deadline hit!" or "I really, really want to sell lots of big expensive Weeb-bait walkers, but the established background doesn't support that - but, with the power of FANTASY! I can just completely ignore the stuff I already wrote, Huzzah! Money plox").
You can write fiction that is as ridiculously implausible as you like relative to reality, but if you want it to be good fiction you have to write it with consistency.
Oh I agree with you. I was replying to the realism arguments; the stuff about walker foot pressure and the benefits of using tracked or hover vehicles from a physics standpoint. That is silly to me, since we have tons of fluff stating that giant walkers are a good, decent solution to certain warfare problems in the 40k universe (re: all of the titans, biotitans, etc). In other words: big walkers work within the framework of 40k. Tau having one does not somehow invalidate that.
Now, whether that's consistent with their lore is another story. Based on original publications, I'd say we're looking at (overall, since the Riptide) a level of change equal to the massive Necron re-write back in 5th. Lord knows from a consistency standpoint, there's enough retcons in there to give my grandchildren a migraine. Is it stupid? Yeah. But hey, I'd also like to unwrite Draigo's mary-sue ass right out of my GK book, so this kind of BS is pretty par for the course nowadays.
This was linked to earlier to a post over at Advanced Tau Tactica to someone who spoke to the FW rules designers.
Warhound wrote:Alan Bligh, alongside Daren Parrwood and Blake Spence are all keen to develope the Tau War Paradigm beyond that of just the Kauyon and Mont'au strategies... this is leading to not just this suit, but also a likely Superheavy Skimmer/ Tank that is a more suitable heavy platform, but on a scale for the long lost Orca.
...
The KX is the Tau's answer to the increasing number of Gargantuan Creature and Knight/ titans that they are encountering across their borders.
The rational is that the likes of the Tigershark, whilst dominating the skies, do not have the capability to take these foe down, due to 'time on target'... they needed something that could go toe to toe with a knight and win.
The success of the Y'varha and R'varnha units has given them the proof and belief in their own ability to develop their strength in the mobile suit arena and therefore decided to bring this to the fore.
I don't think this is so much a rewrite of Necron fluff like the 5th ed one as compared to an "advancement" in the fluff of their newest race. I like that they are advancing the fluff for Tau, showing their flexibility to adapt engineering and tactical doctrines like any young race would, to adapt to new conflicts. The time-on-target issue is a real one, because air assets cannot stay perpetually on-station "just in case" Titans show up. Calling for close air support, depending on what assets have already been deployed to the area versus what is being deployed from a forward airbase, can take 20 to 30 minutes to arrive. 20 to 30 minutes of a Titan rampaging unmolested can wreck havoc before air support arrives.
Also this from the same place:
Warhound wrote:*We can expect a new IA book in the first (hopeful) part of next year, which will make our suits non-experimental rules also!
Tank_Dweller wrote: I think it needs something to blend the torso into the legs a bit better. I'm thinking something along the lines of the armour that Samurais hang from their waists to protect their upper legs. I have no idea of the correct terminology.
I don't think it's the 'blending' so much as the long gangly waist makes him look a little spindly.
Shortening the waist results in this:
That's what I was thinking, its just the tiniest bit too much height at the waist. Your eye sees that circular "belt buckle" and you expect that to be around the waist but end with the waist somewhere lower.
Yodhrin wrote: I want to see a scale lineup with the plastic knight, Kytan, and Cerastus in a row. If, as it appears from the base sizes, the Kytan legs fall nicely in-between the two then I'll probably pick one up - the legs would be de-Chaosified and used with a modified plastic Knight torso to make a Baron/Lancer that isn't as ridiculously oversized as the Cerastus pattern chassis, then I can combine the plastic legs with the LoS torso & arms to get a Knight of Khorne.
The problem with a the Kytan is that the legs are design like the dreadknight legs, which are designed to have a smaller torso and no head. The legs are too long, spindly and the toes too spread out for such a large, bulky torso, which is in turn designed to be mounted on a large tank like platform. If the legs were stockier, thicker, single jointed (like out legs rather than bird) and had either flat, hoofed or even claws instead of appearing to balance on its toes, it would look better. Right now it looks far too dynamic and mobile for its considerable bulk.
Thin legs are a common theme across most Imperial models from FW and GW, even the Warlord's legs are thin for its size under the cowlings, in fact the Warlord's torso is even more out of balance with its legs as it is very deep as well as broad. The big problem I have with the Knights and Titan legs is that they are sized for the cowling, so they look better from the front than the side or back, I'd rather have a closer fit cowling and larger leg if that makes sense.
Thicker legs across the entire leg make the model look slower, that isn't always a bad thing but not suited to every model. I'd rather they made the thigh thicker and kept thinner calves, make them more like a sprinter's legs and giving the impression of speed. Knights and Warhounds should be able to move fast, otherwise what is the point of them over a tracked vehicle?
Personally I like the Knights to have the dorito shape of big upper chest, narrow waist, flair at the hips, its the Chris Evans, Captain America look.
Does anyone know what base that tau titan is shown on? I don't have any of the walker superheavy/gargantuan kits but from online pics it usually looks like they're oval and not round. Is that a new bigger circular base or some kind that forgeworld only uses?
Deadshot wrote: The problem with a the Kytan is that the legs are design like the dreadknight legs, which are designed to have a smaller torso and no head. The legs are too long, spindly and the toes too spread out for such a large, bulky torso, which is in turn designed to be mounted on a large tank like platform. If the legs were stockier, thicker, single jointed (like out legs rather than bird) and had either flat, hoofed or even claws instead of appearing to balance on its toes, it would look better. Right now it looks far too dynamic and mobile for its considerable bulk.
Well said. Basically it boils down to a mismatch or proportions between the upper (plastic) body and the lower (resin) body. Both look cool on their own, bu they are too different in proportions to work well together.
Deadshot wrote: The problem with a the Kytan is that the legs are design like the dreadknight legs, which are designed to have a smaller torso and no head. The legs are too long, spindly and the toes too spread out for such a large, bulky torso, which is in turn designed to be mounted on a large tank like platform. If the legs were stockier, thicker, single jointed (like out legs rather than bird) and had either flat, hoofed or even claws instead of appearing to balance on its toes, it would look better. Right now it looks far too dynamic and mobile for its considerable bulk.
Well said. Basically it boils down to a mismatch or proportions between the upper (plastic) body and the lower (resin) body. Both look cool on their own, bu they are too different in proportions to work well together.
Now I finally understand why it just visually doesn't work for me...
warboss wrote: Does anyone know what base that tau titan is shown on? I don't have any of the walker superheavy/gargantuan kits but from online pics it usually looks like they're oval and not round. Is that a new bigger circular base or some kind that forgeworld only uses?
Its the 120mm (130?) circle that comes with the Onager Dunestalker.
warboss wrote: Does anyone know what base that tau titan is shown on? I don't have any of the walker superheavy/gargantuan kits but from online pics it usually looks like they're oval and not round. Is that a new bigger circular base or some kind that forgeworld only uses?
Spoiler:
Looks like an onager base to me.
Does anyone know if the Mechanicum LRB was available to buy at the event?
warboss wrote: Does anyone know what base that tau titan is shown on? I don't have any of the walker superheavy/gargantuan kits but from online pics it usually looks like they're oval and not round. Is that a new bigger circular base or some kind that forgeworld only uses?
Its the 120mm (130?) circle that comes with the Onager Dunestalker.
Ah, thanks. I checked out the stompa, wraithknight, gorkamorka whatever ork superheavy, knights, etc and didn't see it. I never thought to look at a "normal" vehicle like that.
warboss wrote: Does anyone know what base that tau titan is shown on? I don't have any of the walker superheavy/gargantuan kits but from online pics it usually looks like they're oval and not round. Is that a new bigger circular base or some kind that forgeworld only uses?
Spoiler:
Looks like an onager base to me.
Does anyone know if the Mechanicum LRB was available to buy at the event?
warboss wrote: Does anyone know what base that tau titan is shown on? I don't have any of the walker superheavy/gargantuan kits but from online pics it usually looks like they're oval and not round. Is that a new bigger circular base or some kind that forgeworld only uses?
Spoiler:
Looks like an onager base to me.
Does anyone know if the Mechanicum LRB was available to buy at the event?
Sorry, LRB? Large Rule Book?
Little Red Book I'm guessing. It wasn't available there no.
warboss wrote: Does anyone know what base that tau titan is shown on? I don't have any of the walker superheavy/gargantuan kits but from online pics it usually looks like they're oval and not round. Is that a new bigger circular base or some kind that forgeworld only uses?
Spoiler:
Looks like an onager base to me.
Does anyone know if the Mechanicum LRB was available to buy at the event?
Sorry, LRB? Large Rule Book?
Little Red Book I'm guessing. It wasn't available there no.
Correct!
Addendum; dang, maybe good things come to those who wait. (LR achillies for the ordo reductor hopefully)
Tank_Dweller wrote: I think it needs something to blend the torso into the legs a bit better. I'm thinking something along the lines of the armour that Samurais hang from their waists to protect their upper legs. I have no idea of the correct terminology.
I don't think it's the 'blending' so much as the long gangly waist makes him look a little spindly.
Shortening the waist results in this:
You could just use those 2 Skull plates from the Lord Of Skulls kits on the lower part of the torso.
warboss wrote: Does anyone know what base that tau titan is shown on? I don't have any of the walker superheavy/gargantuan kits but from online pics it usually looks like they're oval and not round. Is that a new bigger circular base or some kind that forgeworld only uses?
Spoiler:
Looks like an onager base to me.
Does anyone know if the Mechanicum LRB was available to buy at the event?
Sorry, LRB? Large Rule Book?
Little Red Book I'm guessing. It wasn't available there no.
Correct!
Addendum; dang, maybe good things come to those who wait. (LR achillies for the ordo reductor hopefully)
Cool, thanks! Did anyone get a chance to take a look at what's inside of it? Is it all 30k only?
Battlebunnies confirmed that it has rules for the ordinatus, but thats it as far as i know.
These LRB's are for 30k only so far - the first one was vanilla legion marines, the second one is legions on Isstvan3 and this one appears to be a full Taghmata List.
I don't believe they would use the LRB format for 40k; i recon 'imperial armour - Adeptus Mechanicus' is more what you're after; no? (me too - just for fluff about the Ordo Reductor)
I think he looks incredible, and I'm seriously considering doing some EC. I love all their models (except Fulgrim). I just don't really like them fluff wise haha.
So Eidolon comes with a helmet ,but Sigismund doesnt? I wonder what goes into the design choices for who gets one. Not complaining, just legitimately curious.
Awesome ... this truly is one of the best models in the character series. Problem is I like both the helmet and the normal head ... which one will it be?
So Eidolon comes with a helmet ,but Sigismund doesnt? I wonder what goes into the design choices for who gets one. Not complaining, just legitimately curious.
Yeah, it's odd. Typhon, Sevatar, Kharn and now Eidolon come with helmet options, the others don't.
SpyderG6 wrote: So Eidolon comes with a helmet ,but Sigismund doesnt? I wonder what goes into the design choices for who gets one. Not complaining, just legitimately curious.
Awesome ... this truly is one of the best models in the character series. Problem is I like both the helmet and the normal head ... which one will it be?
Never tried that before. And because I love using all different bits and pieces from different models I think I will use the helmet for some other model and go with the bare head for Eidolon.
I am yet to purchase any of the HH Characters... but I have to admit... Sigismund & new Eidolon are making me seriously challenge that fact! They look truly glorious! And even Perty is looking pretty darned good IMHO...
I also have to agree, it is a bit strange that some come with the helmet option and some done.... I think the Sigismund sculpt is really nicely done... but for me... personally... he needs a helmet... fully prepped for battle against all of those chaos champs he mauls on the walls of the Imperial Palace.... however.. as has been mentioned earlier... its not to tricky to swap out heads and helmets etc...
Never tried that before. And because I love using all different bits and pieces from different models I think I will use the helmet for some other model and go with the bare head for Eidolon.
Yeah, that works too. Magnets are easy though if you did want to go that route, just make sure the polarities are correct haha.
JohnnyHell wrote:The Kytan looks funky. I think it's the toes. It looks like it's from another model, not designed to complement the torso.
Deadshot wrote:The problem with a the Kytan is that the legs are design like the dreadknight legs, which are designed to have a smaller torso and no head. The legs are too long, spindly and the toes too spread out for such a large, bulky torso, which is in turn designed to be mounted on a large tank like platform. If the legs were stockier, thicker, single jointed (like out legs rather than bird) and had either flat, hoofed or even claws instead of appearing to balance on its toes, it would look better. Right now it looks far too dynamic and mobile for its considerable bulk.
SpyderG6 wrote:
ImAGeek wrote: Looks like Eidolon will come with a (kick ass) helmet:
So Eidolon comes with a helmet ,but Sigismund doesnt? I wonder what goes into the design choices for who gets one. Not complaining, just legitimately curious.
Bad guys vs good guys. Good guys have no helmet to make them stand out (SM Sergeant style) and to give them a more humanised, relatable feature as their "protector of humanity role" requires. Bad guys have a faceless, intimidating faceplate to demhumanise and make them evil, with an option for no helmet should people choose.
Fireball wrote:
ImAGeek wrote: Looks like Eidolon will come with a (kick ass) helmet:
Awesome ... this truly is one of the best models in the character series. Problem is I like both the helmet and the normal head ... which one will it be?
You could have his helmet mounted on his based, dented or cracked, so he takes it off to show his god-like visage and view the battlefield with his own perfect sense, as well to cast off his dented, imperfect armour.
Further to the ordinatus rules in the LRB - just spotted this on battlebunnies by Mark Fairbrother:
"....Sonic cannon is 72" range, draw a line - everything within 3 1/2" of that line takes an auto hit with Ignores Cover and Instant Death, strength varies from 5 to D based on size of model hit (small model, smaller strength, super heavy/gargantuan/building, strength D"
Armillus Dynat model has no helmet head option and Autilon Skorr model has no bare head option so I think there is no clear way to tell who is going to get what in the future.
Also- anyone think that GW are knocking out some cracking decals of late? Those Night Lords ones look amazing.
They're awesome yeah, my UM ones are incredible and the upcoming ones all look awesome. Jew Goodwin's daughter designs them.
UM?
Also, yeah, I'm especially looking forward to the Titan ones. No one wants to screw up freehanding decals on a Titan (Also seriously, Jes' daughter designs them? Wow, serious talent runs in the family...)
SirDonlad wrote: Further to the ordinatus rules in the LRB - just spotted this on battlebunnies by Mark Fairbrother:
"....Sonic cannon is 72" range, draw a line - everything within 3 1/2" of that line takes an auto hit with Ignores Cover and Instant Death, strength varies from 5 to D based on size of model hit (small model, smaller strength, super heavy/gargantuan/building, strength D"
For gaks and giggles, I decided to try and find a pic of the onager (thanks for the tips on which base the tau titan is using!) that had the knight in it somewhere and roughly matched the shot angle of one of the Tau Titan pics. I can't verify the relative size of the knight to the onager in GW's webstore photoshop but at least I found a pic with both to use as a reference. I kept resizing the tau titan in mspaint (sorry, no photoshop here) until the base matched the onager one in width at least as close as I could tell with one edge hidden by a titan's toe.
Not surprising but bigger than a knight. I figure that one step resizing/size comparison is a bit more easily verifiable than what they did over on BOLS. You can see half the onager base copy/pasted onto the tau titan's base.
Finally got the confidence to click purchase on the Kytan its never easy seeing that much money go on one model but damn, with this and the age of sigmar box, my khorne daemonkin just got a whole lot nastier. I dont mind the size of the legs compared to the chest, for some reason it just doesnt bother me and usually I hate things that have odd proportions. Cant wait to see what poses, paint schemes people come up with for it.
Also- anyone think that GW are knocking out some cracking decals of late? Those Night Lords ones look amazing.
Yep, I've always thought that the transfer designs have been a bit simple, considering what could be done with modern printers. These take it up a notch.
Also- anyone think that GW are knocking out some cracking decals of late? Those Night Lords ones look amazing.
Stuff like this makes me consider re-booting my abandoned Angels Encarmine army. Alot of the Night Lords' stuff (40k and Heresy era) stuff would be rather easy to convert for AE...
SirDonlad wrote: Further to the ordinatus rules in the LRB - just spotted this on battlebunnies by Mark Fairbrother:
"....Sonic cannon is 72" range, draw a line - everything within 3 1/2" of that line takes an auto hit with Ignores Cover and Instant Death, strength varies from 5 to D based on size of model hit (small model, smaller strength, super heavy/gargantuan/building, strength D"
Is that a generic Titan sheet of decals? Or part of one of the Legio specific ones? If the former, I must have it. I'm barely a beginner on freehand, so something I can use to create heraldry for my titans would be a lifesaver.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Is that a generic Titan sheet of decals? Or part of one of the Legio specific ones? If the former, I must have it. I'm barely a beginner on freehand, so something I can use to create heraldry for my titans would be a lifesaver.
They definitely had them for specific Legios, including I saw, Gryphonnicus, Mortis, Astorum, amongst a few others. I think they did have a generic sheet though, including the one for the Warlord Volcano Cannon.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Is that a generic Titan sheet of decals? Or part of one of the Legio specific ones? If the former, I must have it. I'm barely a beginner on freehand, so something I can use to create heraldry for my titans would be a lifesaver.
They definitely had them for specific Legios, including I saw, Gryphonnicus, Mortis, Astorum, amongst a few others. I think they did have a generic sheet though, including the one for the Warlord Volcano Cannon.
I don't think they were planning to release the Warlord Volcano Cannon decal sheets though.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Is that a generic Titan sheet of decals? Or part of one of the Legio specific ones? If the former, I must have it. I'm barely a beginner on freehand, so something I can use to create heraldry for my titans would be a lifesaver.
They definitely had them for specific Legios, including I saw, Gryphonnicus, Mortis, Astorum, amongst a few others. I think they did have a generic sheet though, including the one for the Warlord Volcano Cannon.
I don't think they were planning to release the Warlord Volcano Cannon decal sheets though.
Perturabo IMHO looks awesome!! Wasn't ever too interested in HH Era IW..... but read Angel Exterminatus recently and I thought their descriptions and characters were pretty cool! Looks like an awesome model too! ..... I wonder who his Legions "other" character will be??
Awesome ... this truly is one of the best models in the character series. Problem is I like both the helmet and the normal head ... which one will it be?
shamikebab wrote: And yet another price increase :/ They'll be over £100 each by the end at this rate.
I fear you may be correct! Although.. isn't the Perty model meant to be fairly large.. and the base is bigger too.... still.... Right now my list is already sitting at around £400.... make that £470.... .DOH!
Enigwolf wrote: I just noticed this. There's a dead pilot inside the Cerastus!
Spoiler:
I don't like that picture - it's one of the saddest parts of a diorama base yet imo.
second place goes to the solar auxillia veterans on conrad curze's base and third goes to the shattered section of sicarian battletank - can't remember who's base that one was on.
whalemusic360 wrote: My Warlord has shipped! Now I just have to wait for the previewed head to come out, and maybe a quake cannon just to not have the two same guns.
Just felt the need to share, I'm pretty excited.
Share a picture of your certificate when it arrives!
whalemusic360 wrote: My Warlord has shipped! Now I just have to wait for the previewed head to come out, and maybe a quake cannon just to not have the two same guns.
whalemusic360 wrote: My Warlord has shipped! Now I just have to wait for the previewed head to come out, and maybe a quake cannon just to not have the two same guns.
Just felt the need to share, I'm pretty excited.
Share a picture of your certificate when it arrives!
Yeah, seriously. Take some pics of the cooler parts, too.
whalemusic360 wrote: My Warlord has shipped! Now I just have to wait for the previewed head to come out, and maybe a quake cannon just to not have the two same guns.
Just felt the need to share, I'm pretty excited.
By demand of the Inquisition, you will create a P&M thread with enough pictures to drown a heretic in.
whalemusic360 wrote: My Warlord has shipped! Now I just have to wait for the previewed head to come out, and maybe a quake cannon just to not have the two same guns.
Just felt the need to share, I'm pretty excited.
By demand of the Inquisition, you will create a P&M thread with enough pictures to drown a heretic in.
I can, and will, definitely take some pic of it when I get it. Other than the certificate, and other requests? The box is supposedly pretty cool. Maybe some comparison shots for size?
I will be farming the p&m part out to a more talented person then myself. It will be on his blog, found here. It will match the Warhound found there, that is also mine.
Also, 8 barrels of dakka on a single infantry character? Even the Orks struggle to reach those levels!
I think he should have a few ammo runts with him - those tiny ammo cans on his back are going to run empty after one or two bursts.
Yeah, I was thinking about that, its probably has a rather slow-ish rate of fire, but the 4 barrels compensate in part for that, along with every round being very powerful.
I was kind of looking forward to Peturabo but he's as unappealling to me as most of the others. The ammo belts look a bit goofy and unfunctional, hammer looks pretty wack, and the head cables give him a fat face.
whalemusic360 wrote: My Warlord has shipped! Now I just have to wait for the previewed head to come out, and maybe a quake cannon just to not have the two same guns.
Just felt the need to share, I'm pretty excited.
Share a picture of your certificate when it arrives!
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Anyone ever thought that the reason the Tau are getting a Titan is because of the need or the players for more ease of use?
Super Heavy fliers are not easy to move about on the battlefield or transport. Really, they should only be seen in apocalypse games where other such huge things are moping about on the board.
A walker is easier to utilise on the field. Yeah they could have gone with a super heavy hover tank, but maybe they want to leave them with just the Eldar, and again maybe they weren't practical for the user on the table top.
Not to mention, fluff-wise, the Tau are the race most likely to change their doctrine of warfare to suit the situation. There's still room for the whole fast and mobile thing - but perhaps they're finally realizing that they HAVE to have big heavy hitters to complete wiht the Imperial slug-fest.
Sinful Hero wrote: 47 already? Sheesh. That's quite a chunk of change. And a large chunk of resin for 47.
49 and 50 are accounted for on Warseer. And IIRC, they sold 11 at WHW, and took preorders for 25 more, so that takes us to 36 already. So at least 14 in the first day or two. Plus there are the 3-4 FW has for themselves for display.
MagosBiff90 wrote: Perturabo IMHO looks awesome!! Wasn't ever too interested in HH Era IW..... but read Angel Exterminatus recently and I thought their descriptions and characters were pretty cool! Looks like an awesome model too! ..... I wonder who his Legions "other" character will be??
Well, Nârik Dreygur is an Iron Warriors character with rules and a model.
Me being pedantic aside, I would love to see some more of the character series filled out. There are so many with rules but no model, and so many more with names but neither models or rules. I love making conversions as much as the next guy, but I'll be honest and say the FW team runs circles around anything I can cobble together.
Sinful Hero wrote: 47 already? Sheesh. That's quite a chunk of change. And a large chunk of resin for 47.
49 and 50 are accounted for on Warseer. And IIRC, they sold 11 at WHW, and took preorders for 25 more, so that takes us to 36 already. So at least 14 in the first day or two. Plus there are the 3-4 FW has for themselves for display.
angelofvengeance wrote: @Phutarf: Don't you have enough to do with that giant cathedra you're building?
He can slap the giant cathedral on top of his Warlord.
Also, someone posted this on the BolSFB page with regards to Perturabo, alleging that GW was lazy and just did a digital re-sculpt of Horus. Thoughts? Personally for me, it's the same pose, but there are enough subtle nuances in their differences like the minute angles that make me belief that they weren't based on the same digital sculpt, rather just use a "classic" heroic pose.
Also, someone posted this on the BolSFB page with regards to Perturabo, alleging that GW was lazy and just did a digital re-sculpt of Horus. Thoughts? Personally for me, it's the same pose, but there are enough subtle nuances in their differences like the minute angles that make me belief that they weren't based on the same digital sculpt, rather just use a "classic" heroic pose.
They're similar heroic poses and have the same "artistic inspiration", but they're very different sculpts.
I was expecting the warlord certificate to be more gaudy, gold edging or something - also, i was expecting them to change the date of issue to nearer M30.
With regards to the rumoured redesign thing - i would imagine that they start with a (nice link here) 'standard template' (wink wink) which was constructed (hint hint) in 3d about a skeletal frame so they could save time and not have to sculpt each suit of armour seperately with inevitable scaling problems. So i sympathise with them on that.
I'm in denyal about the loss of bob. he's just spent some points on an iron halo, artificer armour and a TH/SS combo...
Enigwolf wrote: Also, I don't know if this goes here, but with the recent release of AoS.. They replaced Bob the Space Marine out front of WW! :(
I KNOW! I was at Warhammer World on Monday for the first time, and I think they had changed it sometime during the previous week. I was so sad, but they hadn't replaced te Rhino with a horse stable or something so that was ok. Still, putting a lot of eggs in Sigmars basket to be replacing the classic Space Marine. But such is life.
Also, is Perturabo the first Primarch to have two weapon options; The hammer/fist?
Yeah I think he is, but that's because he gets Ferrus Manus' Forgebreaker as a gift from Horus later on, so it seems right that they should model him with it.
Also, someone posted this on the BolSFB page with regards to Perturabo, alleging that GW was lazy and just did a digital re-sculpt of Horus. Thoughts? Personally for me, it's the same pose, but there are enough subtle nuances in their differences like the minute angles that make me belief that they weren't based on the same digital sculpt, rather just use a "classic" heroic pose.
They're similar heroic poses and have the same "artistic inspiration", but they're very different sculpts.
Exactly. Similar, but very different in their execution. I'm also certain that that is probably one of the only angles you can see any similarity between the two.
In another grand display of tactical supremacy geedubs has replaced the statue of their most iconic and enduring property, the space marine, with some shiny bloke coming from a game that I think a whole 2 people have actually enjoyed playing.
Also, someone posted this on the BolSFB page with regards to Perturabo, alleging that GW was lazy and just did a digital re-sculpt of Horus. Thoughts? Personally for me, it's the same pose, but there are enough subtle nuances in their differences like the minute angles that make me belief that they weren't based on the same digital sculpt, rather just use a "classic" heroic pose.
They're similar heroic poses and have the same "artistic inspiration", but they're very different sculpts.
With digital sculpts, I wouldn't be surprised if they used the same core design from earlier in the process but I definitely wouldn't consider the end product to be the same though.
Jpogfreak886 wrote: I was so sad, but they hadn't replaced te Rhino with a horse stable or something so that was ok. Still, putting a lot of eggs in Sigmars basket to be replacing the classic Space Marine. But such is life.
ImAGeek wrote: I think the Space Marine statue is still at WHW but in a different place.
Yep, forgotten under a set of stairs behind a giant Age of Sigmarines BUY BUY BUY display. Not kidding.
Yep...
Spoiler:
He looks like he's plotting his revenge...
That picture - so awesome!
Looks like it could be used for a few Memes, yes?
Gw corporate now officially has a company wide special rule...And they shall know no shame. Poor astartes hiding under the stairs like a grot at a nob party. :(
ImAGeek wrote: I think the Space Marine statue is still at WHW but in a different place.
Yep, forgotten under a set of stairs behind a giant Age of Sigmarines BUY BUY BUY display. Not kidding.
Yep...
Spoiler:
He looks like he's plotting his revenge...
Please tell me this is shopped. If not, it is one of the most hilariously symbolic things GW has ever done. The "man" who singlehandedly put bread on the table for thousands of employees over the years, replaced by a golden idol, gathering dust under the stairs, and hidden behind a sales display for what may be the last, biggest throw of the dice to save the company.
I have nothing against Age of Sigmar, I like the models, but that seems very sad to see the big marine shoved under the stairs and I just made myself laugh imaging him falling forwards right through that display.
ImAGeek wrote: I think the Space Marine statue is still at WHW but in a different place.
Yep, forgotten under a set of stairs behind a giant Age of Sigmarines BUY BUY BUY display. Not kidding.
Yep...
Spoiler:
He looks like he's plotting his revenge...
Please tell me this is shopped. If not, it is one of the most hilariously symbolic things GW has ever done. The "man" who singlehandedly put bread on the table for thousands of employees over the years, replaced by a golden idol, gathering dust under the stairs, and hidden behind a sales display for what may be the last, biggest throw of the dice to save the company.
It doesn't look big enough to be it - that thing was huge. The one in the picture might have been one of the pre-renovation marines that sat inside the hallways of WHW.
the_Armyman wrote: Please tell me this is shopped. If not, it is one of the most hilariously symbolic things GW has ever done. The "man" who singlehandedly put bread on the table for thousands of employees over the years, replaced by a golden idol, gathering dust under the stairs, and hidden behind a sales display for what may be the last, biggest throw of the dice to save the company.
Beautiful.
I swear, everything about Age of Sigmar is unintentionally hilarious.
the_Armyman wrote: Please tell me this is shopped. If not, it is one of the most hilariously symbolic things GW has ever done. The "man" who singlehandedly put bread on the table for thousands of employees over the years, replaced by a golden idol, gathering dust under the stairs, and hidden behind a sales display for what may be the last, biggest throw of the dice to save the company.
Love that techmarine. Will likely swap the servo arm for something to make it into a conversion beamer.
Also would love to get 3 of those thunderfire rapiers to run a full battery.
The only thing I'm not sure I like about the techmarine is his gun. It looks too small for a boltgun, too big for a pistol and too squared compared to his armor, all just personal preference I guess.
Lovely Techmarine. About time the Techmarine Covenant had some decent 30k era resins.
That Space Marine hidden by the stand image, talk about being cast off
Also, apologies, but it had to be done...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Theophony wrote: The only thing I'm not sure I like about the techmarine is his gun. It looks too small for a boltgun, too big for a pistol and too squared compared to his armor, all just personal preference I guess.
And weapon swaps wouldn't be hard.
It'll be a Phobos pattern bolt pistol. They are very chunky.
So what I've learned from the last few pages is that FW, and hence GW, have managed to sell 91 Warlord Titans at 1200 pounds each. That's a nice chunk of change.
Well our resident Blackadder over in P&M blog land bought 7.......that's right as in more than six . It was a computer error though and he got it straightened out, but just think what the wife would say to you if she saw a bill like that hit the credit card/bank account
Theophony wrote: Well our resident Blackadder over in P&M blog land bought 7.......that's right as in more than six . It was a computer error though and he got it straightened out, but just think what the wife would say to you if she saw a bill like that hit the credit card/bank account
Looky Likey wrote: For a moment there I was really impressed as I thought they'd intentionally brought seven warlords!
Friend of mine owns five (used to be eight) Reavers and a few Warhounds, but those are from "alternate" sources so not so impressive.
I guess the success of the Warlord means more super sized kits, which is great for me.
I'm wondering where they point is they hit profit from the kit. From the sound of it they invested a LOT of time and effort into the design meaning a lot of salary.
ImAGeek wrote: I think the Space Marine statue is still at WHW but in a different place.
Yep, forgotten under a set of stairs behind a giant Age of Sigmarines BUY BUY BUY display. Not kidding.
Yep...
Spoiler:
He looks like he's plotting his revenge...
That picture - so awesome!
Looks like it could be used for a few Memes, yes?
Gw corporate now officially has a company wide special rule...And they shall know no shame. Poor astartes hiding under the stairs like a grot at a nob party. :(
Symbolism is loss on GW, even they have to see something metaphoric after this.
Looky Likey wrote: For a moment there I was really impressed as I thought they'd intentionally brought seven warlords!
Friend of mine owns five (used to be eight) Reavers and a few Warhounds, but those are from "alternate" sources so not so impressive.
I guess the success of the Warlord means more super sized kits, which is great for me.
I'm wondering where they point is they hit profit from the kit. From the sound of it they invested a LOT of time and effort into the design meaning a lot of salary.
That's a set of numbers I'd be keen on seeing as well, but assuming it was two people working full time for a year (guessing from conversations I've had with the guys building it), at a cost to the company of around £50k each, plus costs for the moulds, test models, painting (this was 1 week for the one they photographed and a day for the one on the display stand, again from conversations I've had with the team), photography/video production, development of the instructions (it comes with a full colour booklet), I'd put that at around £200k total, so they are a good way along to paying back a kit that will last years.
Stormbird will be the next big kit, I'm most interested in how they will handle the flight stand for it as the Thunderhawk is a right pain, mine has a huge base and three of the clear plastic flight stands going into the landing feet.
Doing a lot of tidying up/sorting stuff lately, and I found the certificate for my Chaos Warhound. #304, and that was bought over a decade ago. I wonder what they're up to at this point.
No idea what my ebay purchased Lucius Warhound number would be, though, and I'll never know that.
ImAGeek wrote: I think the Space Marine statue is still at WHW but in a different place.
Yep, forgotten under a set of stairs behind a giant Age of Sigmarines BUY BUY BUY display. Not kidding.
Yep...
Spoiler:
He looks like he's plotting his revenge...
Please tell me this is shopped. If not, it is one of the most hilariously symbolic things GW has ever done. The "man" who singlehandedly put bread on the table for thousands of employees over the years, replaced by a golden idol, gathering dust under the stairs, and hidden behind a sales display for what may be the last, biggest throw of the dice to save the company.
Having gone to warhammer world a couple of months ago, I can confirm he was indeed standing under the stairs like a moody toddler.
Back in the dim and distant past when dinosaurs walked the Earth, one of the very first Forge World Models was created. The Large Scale Space Marine.
He now stands vigil over the Forge World Store, his loaded bolter aimed and ready to purge those Heretics. This Model is a fantastic addition to any collection. Standing at an impressive 6 inches/150mm tall, even to this day this is one of our most popular models. Due to its large scale and multiple parts, this model has unlimited opportunities for conversions and customisations.
Make sure you head to Warhammer World this week to enjoy our amazing Forge World Store, or pre-order any of the releases due to reach us on Saturday 18th July. We also have a limited number of tickets for upcoming events here at Warhammer World, including the Gods of War Battle Brothers event, so don’t miss out and buy your tickets now. See you there!
reds8n wrote: http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/2015/07/13/forge-world-store-an-old-friend-returns/
Can't see it on the main FW site, yet anyway.
He's in the Modelling supplies section for some reason:
reds8n wrote: http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/2015/07/13/forge-world-store-an-old-friend-returns/
Can't see it on the main FW site, yet anyway.
He's in the Modelling supplies section for some reason:
-Shrike- wrote: Aw, yeah. Hopefully they bring back some of the other cool things they used to make, like that Abaddon model.
Or Tyranid terrain. Although I will admit dakka has some nice tutorials on making your own.
Or the Anphelion Base...
Having read a fair bit about that particular piece of terrain, the only nice thing that could be said about it is that a very experienced modeller could make it look very cool. Anyone else, however...
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Any news on shattered legions rules for future books? Wondering if my Salamanders will get any more love in the years to follow.
I think, if I remember correctly, Shattered legions are planned for the next book.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Any news on shattered legions rules for future books? Wondering if my Salamanders will get any more love in the years to follow.
I think, if I remember correctly, Shattered legions are planned for the next book.
I thought they said:
6=Shadow Crusade
7=Shatter legions plus legion rules for Blood Angels, White Scars, and Dark Angels.
At the HH Weekender it was nailed on that books 5 & 6 would cover the UM part of HH however since then they seem to have changed their mind and want to insert another book between them.
I'm having major nerd rage over this as it means the slip case for UM (I'd put a Warlord on that FW will do one as they have always done so for set) would look weird with books 5 & 7 in one case and 6 on its own. The second reason, and the more important one, is than Alan stated at the weekender that the Shattered Legion rules were finished in time to go into book 4 but they couldn't fit them in, they could have gone into book 5 as it isn't as thick as previous books and it could certainly go into the next UM book as the vast majority of rules have already been covered for WE, WB, and UM for SM, spliting it into a seperate book seems like a cash grab.
I'm quite interested in how they will handle the rules for the DA, BA & WS legions if they go into an earlier book, without the Primarchs' rules it seems like a cash grab again, it is hardly time consuming to write the rules for Primarchs at this point. Just seems like another cash grab to me, because you can already play as your legion using the default legion rules, what really makes a legion standout is the fluffy units like a Primarch and if these aren't there then what is the point? Are there really that many people who haven't started DA, WS, and BA who would if given an incomplete set of rules for their army? Models and upgrade kits I get, but rules?
Meh. Looks decent and nurgly, but the FWGUO is a classic. And we can use the lottkin model for a large plastic option now too. I'd rather they skipped this and gave Slaanesh and/or Tzeentch some attention. When will they get their Daemon Prince + Herald kit like Khorne and Nurlge have had forever now?
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Any news on shattered legions rules for future books? Wondering if my Salamanders will get any more love in the years to follow.
I think, if I remember correctly, Shattered legions are planned for the next book.
I thought they said:
6=Shadow Crusade
7=Shatter legions plus legion rules for Blood Angels, White Scars, and Dark Angels.
From a few pages back:
White Scars, Blood Angels and Dark Angels are all in the next book. They will have legion rules but no characters or legion specific units.
Book 6 will cover shattered legions and will focus on players creating own narratives for small scale engagements.
Future book will be Thramas and Signis Prime (mirroring the old Blood Angels/Dark Angels codex)
Prospero may not even be book 7. They need to ensure that they can produce the entire range quickly and efficiently and not keep people waiting. To create all the models needed for Prospero would take about a year.
I'm liking the I9, W7 and T8 in his rules, he'll be able to go live with most Primarchs for a few rounds and take of 3 or 4 wounds in the process for a good few points less.
The model is ok, I think it'll live or die by the paint job and I have yet to see it painted at any of the recent events, although you could always use the old GUO model as the new one isn't particularly big.
(me too - just for fluff about the Ordo Reductor)
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