Here's the still images: (Courtesy of War of Sigmar site)
Honestly, while I am all for this kind of homage to past GW releases I think it's not something you can read into too much. They are clearly poking fun of the 3 biggest "reset the clock" possible releases as a clever way of relating to the fan-base. I don't see much coming out of this for squats other than the Necromunda mini.
Honestly, while I am all for this kind of homage to past GW releases I think it's not something you can read into too much. They are clearly poking fun of the 3 biggest "reset the clock" possible releases as a clever way of relating to the fan-base. I don't see much coming out of this for squats other than the Necromunda mini.
Yeah, Its just going to be for necromunda, squats aren't coming back as an army.
Remember that their homeworld was eaten by nids, so they shouldn't have the numbers or command structure needed to build an army.
Nothing to stop them working as mercs, traders and bounty hunters though.
Remember that their homeworld was eaten by nids, so they shouldn't have the numbers or command structure needed to build an army.
We are talking about the setting that has one thousand super soldiers count as a codex in it's own right?
If nothing else, it could be a small mini-imperium codex stuff given that they were mostly part of the IG with a few units rather then a full "army" akin to Ogryns.
Remember that their homeworld was eaten by nids, so they shouldn't have the numbers or command structure needed to build an army.
We are talking about the setting that has one thousand super soldiers count as a codex in it's own right?
If nothing else, it could be a small mini-imperium codex stuff given that they were mostly part of the IG with a few units rather then a full "army" akin to Ogryns.
Space Marines are genetically engineered super soldiers armed with power armor and the best equipment the imperium has to offer. They were created by the Emperor to be soldiers. And they still have a command structure as well as the resources of the Imperium behind them. Are squats genetically engineered super soldiers crafted by the Emperor to be soldiers, with a functioning command structure, centuries of military experience, power armor and the resources of the imperium? As an abhuman add on to the Imperial Guard? Sure, might be plausible. As a stand alone army? No, not logistically viable in universe.
First no, second potentially given that Clans were the primary measure of command. So if a clan offworld survived intact they'd be in perfect shape to continue fighting. Centuries yes, Power armor yes, resources of the Imperium potentially.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: As a stand alone army? No, not logistically viable in universe.
I see literally zero reason why this would be true, especially with all the armies that they've released over the past 3-4 years (Harlis, AdMech, Deathwatch, Genestealer Cults, Custodes, etc.).
Squats, huh? Well, there we have it. They can't do Arbites but we can bring in the 'Dad Joke' of WH40k.
Well, congratulations to anyone who thinks these were cool. There's apparently dozens of 19-year-olds out there that ask me if I 'remember' squats, so let's see if that "If they made them they'd sell!" thing works.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: As a stand alone army? No, not logistically viable in universe.
I see literally zero reason why this would be true, especially with all the armies that they've released over the past 3-4 years (Harlis, AdMech, Deathwatch, Genestealer Cults, Custodes, etc.).
Admech are all over the imperium, Genestealer cults are a constant planetary threat when nids are involved, Deathwatch should be more like special forces (but they do have resources and genetic engineering behind them, so there is sort of a plausibility for them to be standalone), Custodes are absurdly capable warriors to the point that being outnumbered doesn't matter, sort of ditto for harlequins.
Meanwhile, you have squats who have no homeworld, don't have numbers, no longer have access to all the equipment they had or their industrial capabilities, aren't space marine level strong or tough, aren't eldar level agile, don't really any support from the imperium (who are known to treat abhumans like gak. Do you really think they would give abhumans rare power armor if they had the choice?), are on the brink of extinction and aren't overall ubermensch. You might as well ask why we don't have a standalone ratling or ogryn book.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Squats, huh? Well, there we have it. They can't do Arbites but we can bring in the 'Dad Joke' of WH40k.
Well, congratulations to anyone who thinks these were cool. There's apparently dozens of 19-year-olds out there that ask me if I 'remember' squats, so let's see if that "If they made them they'd sell!" thing works.
They sold before. GW stated they were dropped for other reasons beyond sales. I personally love it. With the crap they pump out for the little ones, this is rather nice. (in my opinion of course).
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Squats, huh? Well, there we have it. They can't do Arbites but we can bring in the 'Dad Joke' of WH40k.
Well, congratulations to anyone who thinks these were cool. There's apparently dozens of 19-year-olds out there that ask me if I 'remember' squats, so let's see if that "If they made them they'd sell!" thing works.
Except for the fact that they did sell and quite well. As has been said by Jervis in his infamous "What happened to the Squats" posting.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: As a stand alone army? No, not logistically viable in universe.
I see literally zero reason why this would be true, especially with all the armies that they've released over the past 3-4 years (Harlis, AdMech, Deathwatch, Genestealer Cults, Custodes, etc.).
Admech are all over the imperium, Genestealer cults are a constant planetary threat when nids are involved, Deathwatch should be more like special forces (but they do have resources and genetic engineering behind them, so there is sort of a plausibility for them to be standalone), Custodes are absurdly capable warriors to the point that being outnumbered doesn't matter, sort of ditto for harlequins.
Meanwhile, you have squats who have no homeworld, don't have numbers, no longer have access to all the equipment they had, aren't space marine level strong or tough, aren't eldar level agile, don't really any support from the imperium (who are known to treat abhumans like gak. Do you really think they would give abhumans rare power armor if they had the choice?), are on the brink of extinction and aren't supermen.
You might as well ask why we don't have a standalone ratling or ogryn book.
And this is why I don't think we will see a squat codex, but we could see a squat unit in IG, oops AM. It would also be very easy to do a squat upgrade vehicle set a troop box and commander. Boom squat army.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: As a stand alone army? No, not logistically viable in universe.
I see literally zero reason why this would be true, especially with all the armies that they've released over the past 3-4 years (Harlis, AdMech, Deathwatch, Genestealer Cults, Custodes, etc.).
Admech are all over the imperium, Genestealer cults are a constant planetary threat when nids are involved, Deathwatch should be more like special forces (but they do have resources and genetic engineering behind them, so there is sort of a plausibility for them to be standalone), Custodes are absurdly capable warriors to the point that being outnumbered doesn't matter, sort of ditto for harlequins.
Meanwhile, you have squats who have no homeworld, don't have numbers, no longer have access to all the equipment they had, aren't space marine level strong or tough, aren't eldar level agile, don't really any support from the imperium (who are known to treat abhumans like gak. Do you really think they would give abhumans rare power armor if they had the choice?), are on the brink of extinction and aren't supermen.
You might as well ask why we don't have a standalone ratling or ogryn book.
And this is why I don't think we will see a squat codex, but we could see a squat unit in IG, oops AM. It would also be very easy to do a squat upgrade vehicle set a troop box and commander. Boom squat army.
Yeah, that's more likely. Hell, it even says in the lore that some IG regiments have squats enlisted, who hope they get to take revenge against nids one day. Maybe they'll get hatred against nids or something to reflect that.
zedmeister wrote: Except for the fact that they did sell and quite well. As has been said by Jervis in his infamous "What happened to the Squats" posting.
I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but things that sell well don't get discontinued.
zedmeister wrote: Except for the fact that they did sell and quite well. As has been said by Jervis in his infamous "What happened to the Squats" posting.
I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but things that sell well don't get discontinued.
They are if you lose copyright of it.
And all discussion about why Squats can't be a force in warhammer 40k based in actual or past lore is pointless. If they want, they will, just like Custodes. A small retcon here, a little new lore added over there and BOOM, squats.
zedmeister wrote: Except for the fact that they did sell and quite well. As has been said by Jervis in his infamous "What happened to the Squats" posting.
I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but things that sell well don't get discontinued.
I suggest you read the "What happened to squats" reference. Not only did they sell well, but they continued to do well in epic, a setting better suited to GWs vision of squats.
Galas wrote: They are if you lose copyright of it.
Not sure I'm understanding, was it the name that they lost copyrights to? We're talking about a company that renames their armies to retain copyrights.
Squats were before my time. I think. If they were around during my time, I'm pretty sure they weren't on any tables.
zedmeister wrote: Except for the fact that they did sell and quite well. As has been said by Jervis in his infamous "What happened to the Squats" posting.
I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but things that sell well don't get discontinued.
Sigh....
Spoiler:
"I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist
Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.
First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.
No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.
Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.
Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.
In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based ont he Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...
The second point I'd like to make is about 'old moulds'. In the past, Mail Order in the UK and US used to be the place that we kept all of the retired moulds for Citadel Miniatures, and we used to offer a service where you could order any Citadel Mniature ever made from MO. However, there are now so many of these 'back catalogue' miniatures that it is simply impossible to keep all of the old moulds in Mail Order and offer this service. Instead, we pick and choose which back catalogue miniatures are kept available. At present we're still struggling to produce special catalogues for these ranges (in the US there is the 'Phone Book' catalogue with everything in it, while the UK has special 'collectors guides' that are themed round a race). Once we've ironed out the kinks in the way we deal with the range of collectors models we want to keep permenantly available, the plan is to offer up other parts of the back catalogue for limited periods of time. In effect this will divide the back catalogue into three parts: a range of classic models that are permenantly available, a range of classic models we dip into and bring out for a limited release, and a range of retired models that will no longer be sold either because we've decided that they are embarrassingly bad, or because we are no longer allowed to sell them due to licencing agreement changes. So far we're still slowly working on deciding which classic models we want to keep permenantly available, and its going to take several years to work through just those. The old Squat range is most likely to end up as retired models, I have to say, though there is a good chance that the Squat war engines they could simply into the limited release classic range. Once again, only time will tell...
I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with exisiting army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.
Galas wrote: They are if you lose copyright of it.
Not sure I'm understanding, was it the name that they lost copyrights to? We're talking about a company that renames their armies to retain copyrights.
Squats were before my time. I think. If they were around during my time, I'm pretty sure they weren't on any tables.
I read the parts about the copyright, but the tone seemed to be more centered on the fact that the designers didn't have a vision for them and didn't like the current Dwarfs in Space theme. So I agree that they could have done something like they are now about copyright, but in the end, they sold as well as other armies at the time, but GW didn't like them.
zedmeister wrote: Or you could have actually looked up what I was referring to in my original post that you quickly dismissed.
Yeah, I've got better things to do that Google 'what happened to the Squats'. The answer for me was 'Tyranids', and it was good enough. IMHO, they're a silly grab-ass element that probably needs to stat dead and buried like 'Ork's Rift'. Look THAT one up.
Like I said, I'm pretty sure they weren't the dominant force and had GW had the slightest hint they'd be cash-cows they'd have slapped together SOMETHING for lore. From a company that's pulled some of the most absurd and head-scratching explanations and lore changes out of their ass, the whole "We didn't know where to go with them" just doesn't feel genuine. And in my experience, a lot of businesses don't like to come out and say 'they just didn't sell', mainly because people don't look at things in terms of the resources available, time spent on the project, profitability compared to other similar products, etc.
An example would be the old game, 'City of Heroes'. Money was the reason it shut down. It was -making- money, but that doesn't mean it was sustainable.
I mean, FFS you can take Blimp Dwarves or whatever they're called in Sigmar and easily slap 'Warhammer 40k' on the box and port them over as Squats. You'd think if they were profitable they'd have done it.
You know, like those metal sisters they can't seem to sell off, despite every forum and comment section being clogged with people demanding them.
The words and passion may be there, but as far as I can see the money just wasn't.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: As a stand alone army? No, not logistically viable in universe.
I see literally zero reason why this would be true, especially with all the armies that they've released over the past 3-4 years (Harlis, AdMech, Deathwatch, Genestealer Cults, Custodes, etc.).
Don't forget, Squats weren't allowed to procreate if not on their Homeworld that was eaten.
All Squat reproduction was moved there. So if ANY Squat, ANYWHERE in the universe wanted to have children.... had to go back to the home planet.
They're not like the dirty Eldar who just do it anywhere.
zedmeister wrote: Or you could have actually looked up what I was referring to in my original post that you quickly dismissed.
Yeah, I've got better things to do that Google 'what happened to the Squats'. The answer for me was 'Tyranids', and it was good enough. IMHO, they're a silly grab-ass element that probably needs to stat dead and buried like 'Ork's Rift'. Look THAT one up.
Like I said, I'm pretty sure they weren't the dominant force and had GW had the slightest hint they'd be cash-cows they'd have slapped together SOMETHING for lore. From a company that's pulled some of the most absurd and head-scratching explanations and lore changes out of their ass, the whole "We didn't know where to go with them" just doesn't feel genuine. And in my experience, a lot of businesses don't like to come out and say 'they just didn't sell', mainly because people don't look at things in terms of the resources available, time spent on the project, profitability compared to other similar products, etc.
An example would be the old game, 'City of Heroes'. Money was the reason it shut down. It was -making- money, but that doesn't mean it was sustainable.
I mean, FFS you can take Blimp Dwarves or whatever they're called in Sigmar and easily slap 'Warhammer 40k' on the box and port them over as Squats. You'd think if they were profitable they'd have done it.
You know, like those metal sisters they can't seem to sell off, despite every forum and comment section being clogged with people demanding them.
The words and passion may be there, but as far as I can see the money just wasn't.
I think the problem here is that your are making statements without actually knowing. We all know what assuming does.
As I said before, I think the design team hated them and that's why they died. This also took place when GW was smaller and had more "Gamer types" in control. Possibly before they went public...not sure.
Good catch. Now the question is are they still poking fun or giving us a hint? Also anyone with eagle eyes able to spot anything interesting on Duncan's table?
This says it all "plastic sisters of battle" instead of whatever latinese crap word they want to call it. This should tell you from the get go it is all a JOKE
Personally I dislike Squats, but I don't know why some people is so efusive about how they hate them. Is like... if they want to bring them back, whatever, is not like GW will make me buy them.
And yeah "But I'll face them!" better for you, you'll be able to kill them. But maybe this is the Tau player on me, that has grown a thick skin after years of "Tau aren't proper 40k!"
The fluff arguments against Squats returning are pretty shallow... all you need is "a previously unmentioned set of colonies in a different part of the galaxy was cut off due to warp storms, but now they have returned."
That doesn't mean that I think Squats will come back as an army (though I wouldn't mind). I don't think they will. But fluff will have nothing to do with that.
Galas wrote: And yeah "But I'll face them!" better for you, you'll be able to kill them. But maybe this is the Tau player on me, that has grown a thick skin after years of "Tau aren't proper 40k!"
Just like many of the more hairbrained ideas that GW and the Community has come up with, "Sure, make it so I can kill it" works for me.
I know a few people that might buy this, but sadly Necromunda is... not very popular near me. Shadow War is much more popular. I guess that comes with being able to grab a few dudes from your army and use them.
A positive out of this, it might actually kickstart them making more Necromunda stuff.
And consider me spiteful with Necromunda, because as I understand it's NOT compatible with Shadow War.
One squat is fine. It's pretty absurd to think the ENTIRE RACE was destroyed at the *same* time in a galaxy of thousands of planets with billions serving in the armies of the Imperium.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: [You know, like those metal sisters they can't seem to sell off, despite every forum and comment section being clogged with people demanding them.
No one wants 20 year old sculpts at 15$ a model. What people do want are updated sculpts, viable material (plastic) and rules that actually make sense.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Meanwhile, you have squats who have no homeworld, don't have numbers, no longer have access to all the equipment they had or their industrial capabilities, aren't space marine level strong or tough, aren't eldar level agile, don't really any support from the imperium (who are known to treat abhumans like gak. Do you really think they would give abhumans rare power armor if they had the choice?), are on the brink of extinction and aren't overall ubermensch.
And as we all know, GW never changes the fluff or retcons anything.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: You might as well ask why we don't have a standalone ratling or ogryn book.
Because neither of them are large multi-planet spacefaring civilisations?
ncshooter426 wrote: No one wants 20 year old sculpts at 15$ a model. What people do want are updated sculpts, viable material (plastic) and rules that actually make sense.
No one wanted them when they were alongside other metal sculpts, either.
Don't get me wrong here, I kinda want to see them make them into a viable army and get them plastic sprues. With varible chestplate options for people who have difficulties with women having breasts and whatnot. Something you can stick g'nades to and whatnot. I want them to crank them out and make them viable. And, if you wanna know why?
Because I'm actually sick of seeing people whine about them. Any GW release- New Space Marine Unit? New Eldar Model? Age of Sigmar female Stormcast? Duncan drinks paint water?
Reee! Still no plastic sisters! Reee!
Dozens of posts that amount to this. Followed up by the inevitable, "hurr hey you member squats?"
Hell, I encourage them to bring this stuff back. If it sells, good. If it flops, well- we all know the difference between spenders and keyboarders that play Dawn of War.
Jesus, just make the stuff already and move on, GW.
Squats were too silly for the Grim Dark and were supplanted by Necrons and Sisters of Battle.
Honestly, I thought the greatest hindrance to their resurrection as Demiurg was the Mantic Forgefathers
Spoiler:
Then GW released the Kharadron Overlords, which actually took me a few minutes to realize that they were an Age Of Sigmar release and not a Warhammer 40,000 one.
I don't follow age of sigmar, but holy gak that really does look like a 40k model.
Makes you wonder.
Edit: I just went and looked at the range. If an insider told me they were squats and they decided last minute to make them fantasy I wouldn't have doubted it.
As I said before, I think the design team hated them and that's why they died.
In the statement I don't recall reading anywhere stating that they "Hated" the squats. If they did it was more so that the designers hated the corner that the designers wrote them selves into when they designed the squats and in turn lost interest in the faction. In the post from Jervis in that none of the designers could find a muse or a source of interest and excitement for the squats and instead worked on all the other factions where the designers were interested and excited about. Eventually and sadly because of that they were written out of the fluff.
I have a Tyranid, Tau and a Deamonhunters army that I no longer build and play with because I have lost interest in them. That dose not mean I hate those armies, I have simply lost interest though replacing the older versions of the big bugs with the newer one's would be fun to do.
ncshooter426 wrote: No one wants 20 year old sculpts at 15$ a model. What people do want are updated sculpts, viable material (plastic) and rules that actually make sense.
No one wanted them when they were alongside other metal sculpts, either.
Don't get me wrong here, I kinda want to see them make them into a viable army and get them plastic sprues. With varible chestplate options for people who have difficulties with women having breasts and whatnot. Something you can stick g'nades to and whatnot. I want them to crank them out and make them viable. And, if you wanna know why?
Because I'm actually sick of seeing people whine about them. Any GW release- New Space Marine Unit? New Eldar Model? Age of Sigmar female Stormcast? Duncan drinks paint water?
Reee! Still no plastic sisters! Reee!
Dozens of posts that amount to this. Followed up by the inevitable, "hurr hey you member squats?"
Hell, I encourage them to bring this stuff back. If it sells, good. If it flops, well- we all know the difference between spenders and keyboarders that play Dawn of War.
Jesus, just make the stuff already and move on, GW.
What dose not help the SoB is that they are webstore only (have zero exposure in the retail stores) and stupid expensive. For the cost of one SoB squad I can get twice the number of space marines
My first ever purchase of GW figs was a box of epic scale squat infantry, which I bought in, hmm, 1988 or 89 maybe. Yeah, I'm fine with Squats coming back, whether it's just in Necromunda or all the way to 40K. My nostalgia for squats is strong, and I will be getting a Squat bounty hunter.
I took a long hard look at the Overlords figs with the notion to turn them into a 40K army. It's doable, but the sheer amount of weapon swaps needed to get WYSIWYG made it a back burner idea. I love the range though.
Games Workshop said the Squat Worlds were the least likely to be attacked by the Tyranids due to so little bio mass for them to absorb.
The Marines in the Emperors Crusade were getting their butts handed to them until they made a new armor.
Squats live in inhospitable worlds. They can easily seal off the Nids and use their subterranean warfare to keep their deep bunkers safe. So what if they siphon off the atmosphere.....no different than living on desolate moons. Heck many of the Homeworlds were that already.
Many Squat HomeWorlds were within Imperial Space.
The center of the galaxy is huge....and that wasn't the only Squat worlds.
The Squats had massive space fleets....they could have taken off.
The Squats had over 700 leagues.
A league was made up of 4 to 300 strongholds. The Strongholds were on many different worlds. Thus we are talking billions and billions of squats and tens of thousands of worlds. I am sure some within the galactic center still survived.....not to mention the hundreds outside and those within the Imperium (which would have the full might of the Imperium to defend that section of space.
As mentions there would be millions if not more squats in the Imperial Armies across the galaxy during the Nid invasion.
So with all of this it is almost impossible to think there are no squat forces left. There were far more Squats than Marines.
Hard to imagine that any ONE tyranid fleet could take on all the Marines at once.....Because the forces of the Squats were at least that equal in power.
And instead of the stupid ritual Ad Mech forces....we can have some actual thinking and intelligent and modern-relatable race of the Squats. They would be the closest to our earth.....they don't believe in a load of mumble jumble like most of the imperium...they actually use their brains.
They would have the best tech outside of Necrons and Eldar.
Anything the Imperium has they would have it better!
oh the possibilities....even for a few Homeworlds and some exiled Pirate Fleets....would be enough for 40k gamers.
My personal belief is the tau are sort of what the squats were. They took a lot of the mechanics and technology side of their story and gave it to Tau.... And how much poorer is the game for that decision.
Squats coming back has been a viable possibility since the moment they were axed, Jervis even said so in citadel journal 33:
"Although the Squat Homeworlds no longer exist, there are still bands of Squats that fight independently and follow the old traditions of their race. Many have become little more than pirates and brigands, although some consider themselves freedom fighters attempting to restore Squat independence"
You can't destroy a spacefaring race by destroying their homeworld, in the same way that destroying France won't cause every French person on the planet to spontaneously combust.
Games Workshop said the Squat Worlds were the least likely to be attacked by the Tyranids due to so little bio mass for them to absorb.
The Marines in the Emperors Crusade were getting their butts handed to them until they made a new armor.
Squats live in inhospitable worlds. They can easily seal off the Nids and use their subterranean warfare to keep their deep bunkers safe. So what if they siphon off the atmosphere.....no different than living on desolate moons. Heck many of the Homeworlds were that already.
Many Squat HomeWorlds were within Imperial Space.
The center of the galaxy is huge....and that wasn't the only Squat worlds.
The Squats had massive space fleets....they could have taken off.
The Squats had over 700 leagues.
A league was made up of 4 to 300 strongholds. The Strongholds were on many different worlds. Thus we are talking billions and billions of squats and tens of thousands of worlds. I am sure some within the galactic center still survived.....not to mention the hundreds outside and those within the Imperium (which would have the full might of the Imperium to defend that section of space.
As mentions there would be millions if not more squats in the Imperial Armies across the galaxy during the Nid invasion.
So with all of this it is almost impossible to think there are no squat forces left. There were far more Squats than Marines.
Hard to imagine that any ONE tyranid fleet could take on all the Marines at once.....Because the forces of the Squats were at least that equal in power.
And instead of the stupid ritual Ad Mech forces....we can have some actual thinking and intelligent and modern-relatable race of the Squats. They would be the closest to our earth.....they don't believe in a load of mumble jumble like most of the imperium...they actually use their brains.
They would have the best tech outside of Necrons and Eldar.
Anything the Imperium has they would have it better!
oh the possibilities....even for a few Homeworlds and some exiled Pirate Fleets....would be enough for 40k gamers.
Personally I never "got" Rogue Trader, I was a WHFB laddie until the tail end of 2nd so Squats were only ever a thing for me in so far as they were either a joke or a battlecry for Oldhammer grogs. They were a faction-sized pisstake of the Dwarf archetype - a lot of RT-era stuff was the same - and personally I always disliked that kind of "Hahaha, no no, normie person, I'm not genuinely enjoying this thing you consider ludicrous and childish, I'm ALSO laughing at how silly it is! Honest!" writing.
But hey, evidently plenty of people disagree, just as they seem to enjoy companies basing their marketing on jokes at the customers' expense(hi HMBC, reporting for duty), so why not eh.
Galas wrote: They are if you lose copyright of it.
Not sure I'm understanding, was it the name that they lost copyrights to? We're talking about a company that renames their armies to retain copyrights.
Squats were before my time. I think. If they were around during my time, I'm pretty sure they weren't on any tables.
I read the parts about the copyright,...
There's nothing about copyright in Jervis' old post. he mentions licensing, but that's not the same thing at all. He's talking there about GW's old Lord of the Rings, Judge Dredd, Elric and Doctor Who (and possibly Star Trek) ranges, that GW no longer had the licence to manufacture by that point (their old LotR minis from the 80s, not the ones they sell now based on the films). Possibly also the Ral Partha ranges they used to make under licence in the UK. Note that GW would still own the copyright on any miniatures they sculpted (and on any names they made up, if those names weren't already in the licenced setting) regardless of whether they were allowed to make the miniatures or not.
But anyway, Squats ... I like this guy. All I need now is a Navigator mini that isn't an old geezer like Forge World's one and I can field Inquisitor Draco and his retinue in 40k. This new bounty hunter has a strong 2nd edition vibe - the armour reminds me of the greatcoated guardsman from the 2nd edition setting book, and the weaponry and general appearance reminds me of the two unreleased Squat models shown in the 2nd ed rulebooks.
I'm not sure the Forgefathers had much to do with the lack of presence of the demiurge - they'd been shelved well before Mantic released their space dwarfs. I'd like to see the Demiurg (and the Nicassar) to make an appearance as Tau allies alongside the Kroot and Vespid.
Back then, the design studio had pretty much most of the say in what got made. There was pretty much zero marketing department to speak of, so if the creatives said "Don't want to do it" then that was that. They even produced a series of prototypes around about the launch of second edition but as was posted above, they weren't inspired enough to actually flesh them out. They were briefly available during a Games Day but never made a release.
A lot of the Squat designs and background are from the early days of Rogue Trader and will seem a bit strange today. Dislike them all you like, that's your prerogative, but they are fondly remembered by many and I for one would love to see them return and done justice. And as for the money being there, well I see this as an opportunity. A little toe in the water, if you will, in a similar manner around their approach to Blood Bowl - a release that shocked them with how well it sold. Also, don't forget that, for a long time, GW did no market research at all. So they'd have no clue on what would or wouldn't sell.
First of all that video they put out is amazing, I like that GW seems to be taking themselves less seriously. A squat character is also great to add to necromunda. They can prod the waters for similair models and I hope that they will eventually develop the deminurg into the new space dwarfs, which they have been refered to as the fluff. This partly was their reason for existing (as a way to reintroduce space dwarfs) and it will also be great to give other factions (tau) a sub faction instead of giving the Imperium yet another sub faction.
ncshooter426 wrote: No one wants 20 year old sculpts at 15$ a model. What people do want are updated sculpts, viable material (plastic) and rules that actually make sense.
No one wanted them when they were alongside other metal sculpts, either.
Don't get me wrong here, I kinda want to see them make them into a viable army and get them plastic sprues. With varible chestplate options for people who have difficulties with women having breasts and whatnot. Something you can stick g'nades to and whatnot. I want them to crank them out and make them viable. And, if you wanna know why?
Because I'm actually sick of seeing people whine about them. Any GW release- New Space Marine Unit? New Eldar Model? Age of Sigmar female Stormcast? Duncan drinks paint water?
Reee! Still no plastic sisters! Reee!
Dozens of posts that amount to this. Followed up by the inevitable, "hurr hey you member squats?"
Hell, I encourage them to bring this stuff back. If it sells, good. If it flops, well- we all know the difference between spenders and keyboarders that play Dawn of War.
Jesus, just make the stuff already and move on, GW.
You might have more of a point if they did not specifically put up a SOB clock as well. That's not going to get ignored is it? Its either trolling or generating hope for a release on the back of the success of St C.
Repeatedly having whining about people talking about sisters can be equally tiring. But hey Haters gonna Hate,
Looking forward to seeing what they do with the Squats myself.
Mr Morden wrote: You might have more of a point if they did not specifically put up a SOB clock as well. That's not going to get ignored is it? Its either trolling or generating hope for a release on the back of the success of St C.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And sometimes a joke is just a joke.
Oh I thought I was one of the folk you were referring to with the "totally missing the humour" remark earlier, because I've expressed dislike for GW's "lulz" troll-marketing before. If not apologies.
The Green one wrote: First of all that video they put out is amazing, I like that GW seems to be taking themselves less seriously. A squat character is also great to add to necromunda. They can prod the waters for similair models and I hope that they will eventually develop the deminurg into the new space dwarfs, which they have been refered to as the fluff. This partly was their reason for existing (as a way to reintroduce space dwarfs) and it will also be great to give other factions (tau) a sub faction instead of giving the Imperium yet another sub faction.
I know we're talking a long time in the future (well, a couple of years), but I think Necromunda slowly evolving into a Microcosm Rogue Trader could be fun. Get all the small scale craziness that 40k itself no longer includes in it's galaxy shaking scope.
So with all of this it is almost impossible to think there are no squat forces left. There were far more Squats than Marines. Hard to imagine that any ONE tyranid fleet could take on all the Marines at once.....Because the forces of the Squats were at least that equal in power.
And instead of the stupid ritual Ad Mech forces....we can have some actual thinking and intelligent and modern-relatable race of the Squats. They would be the closest to our earth.....they don't believe in a load of mumble jumble like most of the imperium...they actually use their brains.
They would have the best tech outside of Necrons and Eldar. Anything the Imperium has they would have it better!
oh the possibilities....even for a few Homeworlds and some exiled Pirate Fleets....would be enough for 40k gamers.
Wouldn't that undermine the overall theme of the imperium being constantly on the decline and in peril, and run the risk of squats being mary sues? I mean, if they had tech and a military that could outstrip the imperium's, what's the point of having an imperium? What's the point of having marines, who play a big part in the lore, being figurative grandsons of the emperor? Its actually in the best interest of the setting that squats be kept weak. I mean, people bitch about marines having plot armor all the time, but suddenly its ok for squats to have it? What?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aesthete wrote: The fluff arguments against Squats returning are pretty shallow... all you need is "a previously unmentioned set of colonies in a different part of the galaxy was cut off due to warp storms, but now they have returned."
That doesn't mean that I think Squats will come back as an army (though I wouldn't mind). I don't think they will. But fluff will have nothing to do with that.
Oh yes, because retcons all always welcome and don't damage the setting's integrity and aren't a bitch to keep track of at all Might as well bring back zoats. "They weren't dead, they were just cleaning the hive ship, promise!"
Zoats made a comeback in the background, too - one of the small hive fleets mentioned in the ... 5th edition? Codex Tyranids talks about a group of aliens in stone spaceships claiming to be fleeing the Tyranids. They were wiped out, unfortunately.
They also re-appeared in Warhammer, in the Storm of Magic book.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Zoats made a comeback in the background, too - one of the small hive fleets mentioned in the ... 5th edition? Codex Tyranids talks about a group of aliens in stone spaceships claiming to be fleeing the Tyranids. They were wiped out, unfortunately.
They also re-appeared in Warhammer, in the Storm of Magic book.
That's not the same as bringing back the actual miniatures and suddenly claiming they are an actual force though. Note that in your example the reference basically ended with "they all died, so everything is still consistent with canon."
I could actually see FW doing squats, it is the sort of niche product they were set up to handle.
Image HH book9, was dark-mech, white scars and squats.
Heres the story, found during the great crusade an alliance was made wit the squat home worlds due to them being an off-shoot of humanity and using STC technology. Once the heresy breaks out some factions of the ad-mec buy into the rumour of them having a full STC database and decide to bin the alliance in an effort to grab it for themselves. Who should happen to show up at the same time, the white scars on their way to terra.
Now image scenarios with squat land trains being protected by squads of squat / white scar bikers, from ambushes from crazy dark mec constructions?
Back on topic, the beastman did nothing for me, but for nostalgia alone I'll pick up this guy for my necromunda campaign. As others have said it's the type of crazy rouge trader era type stuff that doesn't fit into 40K well anymore that necromunda can do well.
Tamereth wrote: I could actually see FW doing squats, it is the sort of niche product they were set up to handle.
Image HH book9, was dark-mech, white scars and squats.
Heres the story, found during the great crusade an alliance was made wit the squat home worlds due to them being an off-shoot of humanity and using STC technology. Once the heresy breaks out some factions of the ad-mec buy into the rumour of them having a full STC database and decide to bin the alliance in an effort to grab it for themselves. Who should happen to show up at the same time, the white scars on their way to terra.
Now image scenarios with squat land trains being protected by squads of squat / white scar bikers, from ambushes from crazy dark mec constructions?
Back on topic, the beastman did nothing for me, but for nostalgia alone I'll pick up this guy for my necromunda campaign. As others have said it's the type of crazy rouge trader era type stuff that doesn't fit into 40K well anymore that necromunda can do well.
Oh, if only. The indomitus crusade gives a perfect opportunity to bring Squats back. Isolated strongholds being rediscovered. Highly self sufficient, with the Imperium having to strike certain accords that give the Squats levels of independence as the Imperium is too busy with larger threats. The AdMech have heard rumours of Squat being able to harness Warp Fusion and you could have also sorts of missions and Machiavellian attempts at getting this. Not to mention the unusual and hard wearing heavy equipment and machinery they make use of.
Perhaps the "Contagion of Ganymede" might get more than a single line of background.
The old Squat army - especially in Epic - was rather schizophrenic - leather-jacketed warriors and biker squads on the one hand, and a profusion of massive super-heavy vehicles on the other. It's possible, if they wanted to, GW could split those ideas up and give one to the abhuman Squats and the other to the xenos Demiurg.
(The 2nd edition rulebooks give us, courtesy of a Squat chieftain, this fabulous simile; "I'm parched as a sand toad's nadgy bits.")
Great, you can use this bounty hunters rules as a base for squat rules in necromunda, and with a box of Kharadron+ bits box bolters you are set for a full gang. Good times!
lord_blackfang wrote: No particular need to convert space dorfs, Mantic's are just fine
Spoiler:
You . . . may want to pick a better example.
As far as the release goes, I still feel like Squats are a relic of a different era of 40k that I never really missed, but I'm happy for those who like them. Enjoy your upcoming mini, but I would advise you to temper your expectations. This is most likely just going to be the one model for Necromunda with hopefully a 40k datasheet. Personally, if GW wants to bring in a Space Dwarf archetype, I'd rather see them flesh out the Demiurg as a Tau auxiliary. I feel like they fit the tone of the current game much better than "space dwarf bikers".
Wow, the Forgeworld scum pack is 20 pounds? That's only a bit over $25 USD, or between 8-9 bucks a model for resin models. That's actually pretty darn reasonable. I'll actually be picking them up. While I don't think Squats really fit as a whole faction in 40k, I think Necromunda bringing in a Squat bounty hunter as a nod to the past is pretty cool. The art for the model looks nice as well.
Squats eaten by nids.... i wish this wasnt so widely believed, it was a throw away comment by the writer of the Inq wars books (now mostly retconned anyway) about why there is a squat in his books, they were not eaten by nids, they were just written out pure and simple.
The bulk of the core worlds have been eaten by the Tyranids, the remainder of the worlds that survived have aggressively been annexed by the Imperium not long afterwards.
BrookM wrote: The bulk of the core worlds have been eaten by the Tyranids, the remainder of the worlds that survived have aggressively been annexed by the Imperium not long afterwards.
Yep, which is why I really doubt the Imperium would allow Squats to freely deploy their own armies and have an industry again, because they did steal a bunch of squat worlds.
BrookM wrote: The bulk of the core worlds have been eaten by the Tyranids, the remainder of the worlds that survived have aggressively been annexed by the Imperium not long afterwards.
What book was that in, where is it stated in the fluff, thats my point, its not canon and not even in the fluff, just a throw away comment that the fans have gone with, not that this is a bad thing, look what happened to Dark Angels, relic keepers, holders of old tech, that translated into a plasma cannon for tactical squads, the fans then took this further and said "dark angels=plasma" and now thats true lol
Jervis Johnson wrote:I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist
Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.
First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.
No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.
Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.
Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.
In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based ont he Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...
The second point I'd like to make is about 'old moulds'. In the past, Mail Order in the UK and US used to be the place that we kept all of the retired moulds for Citadel Miniatures, and we used to offer a service where you could order any Citadel Mniature ever made from MO. However, there are now so many of these 'back catalogue' miniatures that it is simply impossible to keep all of the old moulds in Mail Order and offer this service. Instead, we pick and choose which back catalogue miniatures are kept available. At present we're still struggling to produce special catalogues for these ranges (in the US there is the 'Phone Book' catalogue with everything in it, while the UK has special 'collectors guides' that are themed round a race). Once we've ironed out the kinks in the way we deal with the range of collectors models we want to keep permenantly available, the plan is to offer up other parts of the back catalogue for limited periods of time. In effect this will divide the back catalogue into three parts: a range of classic models that are permenantly available, a range of classic models we dip into and bring out for a limited release, and a range of retired models that will no longer be sold either because we've decided that they are embarrassingly bad, or because we are no longer allowed to sell them due to licencing agreement changes. So far we're still slowly working on deciding which classic models we want to keep permenantly available, and its going to take several years to work through just those. The old Squat range is most likely to end up as retired models, I have to say, though there is a good chance that the Squat war engines they could simply into the limited release classic range. Once again, only time will tell...
I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with exisiting army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.
Jervis Johnson wrote:I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist
Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.
First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.
No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.
Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.
Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.
In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based ont he Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...
The second point I'd like to make is about 'old moulds'. In the past, Mail Order in the UK and US used to be the place that we kept all of the retired moulds for Citadel Miniatures, and we used to offer a service where you could order any Citadel Mniature ever made from MO. However, there are now so many of these 'back catalogue' miniatures that it is simply impossible to keep all of the old moulds in Mail Order and offer this service. Instead, we pick and choose which back catalogue miniatures are kept available. At present we're still struggling to produce special catalogues for these ranges (in the US there is the 'Phone Book' catalogue with everything in it, while the UK has special 'collectors guides' that are themed round a race). Once we've ironed out the kinks in the way we deal with the range of collectors models we want to keep permenantly available, the plan is to offer up other parts of the back catalogue for limited periods of time. In effect this will divide the back catalogue into three parts: a range of classic models that are permenantly available, a range of classic models we dip into and bring out for a limited release, and a range of retired models that will no longer be sold either because we've decided that they are embarrassingly bad, or because we are no longer allowed to sell them due to licencing agreement changes. So far we're still slowly working on deciding which classic models we want to keep permenantly available, and its going to take several years to work through just those. The old Squat range is most likely to end up as retired models, I have to say, though there is a good chance that the Squat war engines they could simply into the limited release classic range. Once again, only time will tell...
I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with exisiting army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.
Best regards,
Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic
Thanks, didnt happen though did it, no writing out, no "devoured" just one day they are there, the next they are gone, its sad really as I personally would have loved a series of novels of HOW they got wiped out, as it stands there is no fluff, no canon reason they are gone, just throw away comments and what you just posted.
Also bare in mind they also did the same with Tzaangors, they were around in 2nd, never mentioned after that, even in the fluff, then bam, we got Tzaangors back, so its entirely possible whole armies can come back from the depths of the fluff.
Jervis Johnson wrote:I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist
Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.
First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.
No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.
Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.
Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.
In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based ont he Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...
The second point I'd like to make is about 'old moulds'. In the past, Mail Order in the UK and US used to be the place that we kept all of the retired moulds for Citadel Miniatures, and we used to offer a service where you could order any Citadel Mniature ever made from MO. However, there are now so many of these 'back catalogue' miniatures that it is simply impossible to keep all of the old moulds in Mail Order and offer this service. Instead, we pick and choose which back catalogue miniatures are kept available. At present we're still struggling to produce special catalogues for these ranges (in the US there is the 'Phone Book' catalogue with everything in it, while the UK has special 'collectors guides' that are themed round a race). Once we've ironed out the kinks in the way we deal with the range of collectors models we want to keep permenantly available, the plan is to offer up other parts of the back catalogue for limited periods of time. In effect this will divide the back catalogue into three parts: a range of classic models that are permenantly available, a range of classic models we dip into and bring out for a limited release, and a range of retired models that will no longer be sold either because we've decided that they are embarrassingly bad, or because we are no longer allowed to sell them due to licencing agreement changes. So far we're still slowly working on deciding which classic models we want to keep permenantly available, and its going to take several years to work through just those. The old Squat range is most likely to end up as retired models, I have to say, though there is a good chance that the Squat war engines they could simply into the limited release classic range. Once again, only time will tell...
I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with exisiting army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.
Best regards,
Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic
Some years before he said basically the same in the Citadel Journal (issue 33) - but there the Squat worlds were incorporated in the Imperium (so use your old models as Imperial Guard) with only some renegades left (use the... Ork Codex). So the decision to discontinue them is actually older than the Hive fleet story.
Jervis Johnson wrote:I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist
Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.
First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.
No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.
Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.
Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.
In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based ont he Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...
The second point I'd like to make is about 'old moulds'. In the past, Mail Order in the UK and US used to be the place that we kept all of the retired moulds for Citadel Miniatures, and we used to offer a service where you could order any Citadel Mniature ever made from MO. However, there are now so many of these 'back catalogue' miniatures that it is simply impossible to keep all of the old moulds in Mail Order and offer this service. Instead, we pick and choose which back catalogue miniatures are kept available. At present we're still struggling to produce special catalogues for these ranges (in the US there is the 'Phone Book' catalogue with everything in it, while the UK has special 'collectors guides' that are themed round a race). Once we've ironed out the kinks in the way we deal with the range of collectors models we want to keep permenantly available, the plan is to offer up other parts of the back catalogue for limited periods of time. In effect this will divide the back catalogue into three parts: a range of classic models that are permenantly available, a range of classic models we dip into and bring out for a limited release, and a range of retired models that will no longer be sold either because we've decided that they are embarrassingly bad, or because we are no longer allowed to sell them due to licencing agreement changes. So far we're still slowly working on deciding which classic models we want to keep permenantly available, and its going to take several years to work through just those. The old Squat range is most likely to end up as retired models, I have to say, though there is a good chance that the Squat war engines they could simply into the limited release classic range. Once again, only time will tell...
I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with exisiting army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.
Best regards,
Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic
Some years before he said basically the same in the Citadel Journal (issue 33) - but there the Squat worlds were incorporated in the Imperium (so use your old models as Imperial Guard) with only some renegades left (use the... Ork Codex). So the decision to discontinue them is actually older than the Hive fleet story.
I just figure that the old stunties were too fermented and nasty that the clogged up the Tyranids (which is why they have been constipated for centuries) and this one finally got out by part of the fleet. Pretty soon trikes and bikes will come out.
Wouldn't that undermine the overall theme of the imperium being constantly on the decline and in peril, and run the risk of squats being mary sues? I mean, if they had tech and a military that could outstrip the imperium's, what's the point of having an imperium? What's the point of having marines, who play a big part in the lore, being figurative grandsons of the emperor? Its actually in the best interest of the setting that squats be kept weak.
I mean, people bitch about marines having plot armor all the time, but suddenly its ok for squats to have it? What?
Well there were only billions and such of the Squats. They had lots of mineral resources, but needed to trade for food and other goods.
The Imperium numbers in the trillions. Squats could never compete with the resources of the Imperium...chief of that would be sheer manpower.
So what is the point in the Imperial Guard....you have Space Marines. What is the point of insert blank, .....you have Custodes, Grey Knights, Ad Mech, etc. Same with the Squats. Squats could never take over the galaxy as they had a minimal survivalist culture abeit with a lot of advanced ancient tech but still small in numbers.
Wouldn't that undermine the overall theme of the imperium being constantly on the decline and in peril, and run the risk of squats being mary sues? I mean, if they had tech and a military that could outstrip the imperium's, what's the point of having an imperium? What's the point of having marines, who play a big part in the lore, being figurative grandsons of the emperor? Its actually in the best interest of the setting that squats be kept weak.
I mean, people bitch about marines having plot armor all the time, but suddenly its ok for squats to have it? What?
Well there were only billions and such of the Squats. They had lots of mineral resources, but needed to trade for food and other goods.
The Imperium numbers in the trillions. Squats could never compete with the resources of the Imperium...chief of that would be sheer manpower.
So what is the point in the Imperial Guard....you have Space Marines. What is the point of insert blank, .....you have Custodes, Grey Knights, Ad Mech, etc. Same with the Squats. Squats could never take over the galaxy as they had a minimal survivalist culture abeit with a lot of advanced ancient tech but still small in numbers.
So a bit like Tau in theme, advanced tech, small (relatively) numbers and surviving as best they can?
Dear GW. Please bring back Squats. I will literally throw money in your face if you do. 40k desperately needs more epic beards.
You successfully brought back Genestealer Cults, so surely you can bring back Squats as well.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Thinking Squats, 40k, remaining niches and Kharadron Overlords, I think there’s definitely room for an army predominantly comprised of Light Vehciles
Walkers, Buggies, Crawlers, Moles etc.
And with 8th Ed more-or-less sorting out the previous issues with light vehicles, such an army could work quite nicely I feel?
It’d also reflect the artisan, hand made vibe of Epic Squats. And just like Hipsters, they’ve got beards!
Automatically Appended Next Post: It also sort-of riffs on the Short Biker thing for sake of nostalgia. Which is always a nice thing.
I don't know.. Hrud sound like a race, which has predominately light tech/monsters. And they sound and look
More interesting(IMHO). Another power armored, anthropomorphic, imperial race sounds like an overkill. And are there actually any people, who want squats, who weren't around, when the were sold officially (20 replies in 10..9.. )
There is just so much to do in a 40k universe, and a new race (which come out rarely) as Squats sounds like a waste.
Now squats in Necromunda- that I like. Gangs consisting of very different personae is awesome. And the artwork looks cool, so I hope the mini is a close representation.
Formosa wrote: they were just written out pure and simple.
The really weren't ever even written out. They were just kind of... ignored for a while. With a living canon like 40K, it's hard to ever really wipe something out. Anything that appeared in the Codex Imperialis with 2nd Edition and onward is pretty much canon unless it has been specifically overwritten. Jervis said they had decided to write them out, then never actually published anything with that story in it.
That, and almost all the guys who would have "gotten tired of hearing about Squats" have long since moved on from the company. With the resurrection of stuff like the Genestealer Cult in the last couple years, it's clear the company has a new mindset about everything, and the Squats thing, in the phrasing of Skwisgaar Squigelf, "is grandspas jokes" that they now find amusing to play along with. I mean, the last models in the metal Sisters of Battle line came out almost 15 years ago. Nobody on the Warhammer Community team worked for the company back then.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I think there’s definitely room for an army predominantly comprised of Light Vehciles
Walkers, Buggies, Crawlers, Moles etc.
Unlike, say, Dark Eldar or Tau?
Doesn't the very existence of two options you can come up with suggest that there's always room in 40K for something?
Honestly though, Squats would make excellent troop options for the Imperial Guard. The traditional Squats from Rogue Trader and the 2nd Edition Black Book were lasguns and flak armor. You can literally use the original models in an Imperial Guard army and be WYSIWYG.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Meanwhile, you have squats who have no homeworld, don't have numbers, no longer have access to all the equipment they had or their industrial capabilities, aren't space marine level strong or tough, aren't eldar level agile, don't really any support from the imperium (who are known to treat abhumans like gak. Do you really think they would give abhumans rare power armor if they had the choice?), are on the brink of extinction and aren't overall ubermensch.
And as we all know, GW never changes the fluff or retcons anything.
To my knowledge, they technically never even actually wrote anything about the destruction of the Squats. The closest we got was Jervis's comment on a forum about that being the decision, and the picture of some arrows suggesting some random Tyranid fleet got lost and wandered through the galactic plane from the bottom. Then the map later changed because I think at some point somebody realized just how drastically a hive fleet at the galactic core blew up the 40K map's landscape just to play a joke on the Internet's Squats aficionados, lol.
zedmeister wrote: Except for the fact that they did sell and quite well. As has been said by Jervis in his infamous "What happened to the Squats" posting.
I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but things that sell well don't get discontinued.
That's sort of an entry-level marketing/supply chain analysis, lol.
The reality is that Games Workshop spent decades working against their own opportunity costs. Codexes took years to come out because of the time and resources it took to make them. Now we seem to get a codex reboot every 2 years, lol. What changed? Opportunity costs. GW has the creative personnel and the market has the affordable manufacturing/distribution methods to make releasing codex books significantly easier.
The other half of it is prioritization and wanting to avoid cannibalizing sales from other model lines. If the guys at GW didn't feel they had any fresh ideas for the Squats, then using their Creative resources (writers, sculptors) and manufacturing resources and finite inventory limits on what would be perceived as a "duplicate" model line doesn't make sense. Remember, Squats went away in a period of time where there were 3-6 years between Space Marine Codex books. We've had 3 Space Marine Codex books in the last 5 now. Clearly at some point, Games Workshop realized that while their business was expanding, it didn't make sense to just throw all the ideas out there at the customer. Remember Codex Imperial Guard, 2nd Edition? Pepperidge Farms does. Accompanying it was a staggering five different model ranges. Cadians, Catachan, Mordian, Tallarn, Valhallan. By the time they went to plastic, the range had been trimmed down to two. Again, prioritization. Why sell seven different competing lines of product (including the later Steel Legion and Vostroyans)?
That's really what Jervis was saying about Squats back in 2004. They'd not figured out a way to make Squats their own thing, in a way that made marketing them as an army make sense. And the company's business model was shifting away from being a fun little niche model-company that could mold and cast a wide variety of eclectic science-fantasy miniatures and send them off to market. For reference, GW went public in 2004. 19 days before Jervis made that now-famous post. Which means Jervis was saying that at a time when they'd spent the last few years prepping the company for its public offering and creating a business model that investors would actually get behind. By 2004, Games Workshop was not the same company it had been even five years earlier.
Honestly though, Squats would make excellent troop options for the Imperial Guard. The traditional Squats from Rogue Trader and the 2nd Edition Black Book were lasguns and flak armor. You can literally use the original models in an Imperial Guard army and be WYSIWYG.
Jervis Johnson posted his thoughts on Squats years ago in the Journal, I think just after 3rd Ed landed.
He suggested using Squats with IG rules (as I still do) or using Ork stat lines to reflect a more rough and ready marauder type Squat.
In the case of the latter the lower BS would indicate a weapon failing to fire (poor maintenance, lack of ammo) when rolling a miss rather than the shot going wide.
I'm all for bringing squats back... Grimm still sticks with me, after reading space marine a lifetime ago when I was a kid. I don't think they painted themselves into a corner though as the Jervis article states, I disagree with the logic used. Why can't they be both roving biker style dudes like Grimm AND more dwarfy style as in Epic? They are abhumans, not alien, they can have their own worlds and traditionalist, well cultured squats, and they can have immigrant/refugee/born as new mutations squats as a big minority on other mainline human imperial worlds. The mentality he mentions, to me, falls into a trap that they have to be a mono-flavor culture or people. I would be perfectly happy with my biker exiles or nomads in necromunda/inquisition style settings, and even mixed into IG, and also a 'hearth world' version of squats too as an army in 40k.
Embrace the beauty of 'and' throw off the tyranny of 'or'. Anyways, a necromundan squat will be purchased and will be called Grimm
Hey now... ya'll don't be hatting on Mantic. Underdogs got to start somewhere.
I think I have some of the forgefathers from deadzone somewhere...they really weren't that bad. The original dwarves for KoW are showing their age though for sure - then again the whole box was the cost of a 5 man marine squad
Escher weapons are pretty cool. Three sets still seems OTT - I have 10 Escher left to build and I don't really need sets of weapons for 30 of them.
"Then don't buy all three!"
You can be assured that desirable weapons will be split up across all three sets just because of how the sets are designed (likely a basic one with pistols and HTH weapons, a more heavy one with flamers/melta, and then an exotic one with all the needlers and whatnot).
No sign of Webbers or anything like that. No Grenade Launchers. I'd've hoped for a little more variety, but I doubt we've seen everything.
Stop with the flipping mantic posting. It's bloody annoying when you come to check to see if someone's posted an update for the open day and see another Mantic model.
I was going to suggest the Eldar Corsairs upgrade set from Forge World would do, but that's not any better. The old Eldar weapons sprue from 1st edition would also be a good source of plasma, melta and flamer weapons, but again, bot very easy to find.
At least all the weapons in these packs will be useful to Escher gangs. Not like the old metal weapon pack, where less than half the weapons in each blister were of any use to me.
Well the old metal weapon packs only had the basic and pistol holy trinities (Autogun/Lasgun/Shotgun & Stubgun/Autopistol/Laspistol + a few Knives). It was fine, but overall not the most amazing things for variety.
These have a lot more.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Looking at them, it may be the same Weapons in each, just fitting different models?
There are only 5 torsos that the weapons fit to. I doubt they've made a weapon kit for each torso.
Looks like enforcers will be a long way out. Hope 'Mad Dog' isn't the new Maddonna. Glad I have held off on building, weapon pack looks solid. Cyber mastif and cybspiders.
Looking at the closeups of the weapons, the only thing that disappoints is I can't spot an "aiming" Needle Rifle, just "held at side" and "held over shoulder" one-handed poses.
Looking at the closeups of the weapons, the only thing that disappoints is I can't spot an "aiming" Needle Rifle, just "held at side" and "held over shoulder" one-handed poses.
There was nothing new in the seminar, it was just an intro to the world and houses. There’s a ‘future of Necromunda’ seminar that’ll have new stuff.
BrookM wrote: This is more of a homage than anything else, people read too much into some of the more recent stuff done by GW.
This, alongside the Beastman, are in all likeliness nothing more than one-off miniatures for one of their gaiden games.
For sure. No way are they redoing the Squats for 40k.
Prepare to be disappointed then....
Great new weapon sculpts, its a shame theyre not plastic as they'll end up getting to people in the same shoddy condition that 99% of all FW weapons packs and finer detailed smaller stuff does; misshapen like some Dali-esque painting and with enough holes to entertain even the greatest Swiss cheese connoisseur
H.B.M.C. wrote: Well the old metal weapon packs only had the basic and pistol holy trinities (Autogun/Lasgun/Shotgun & Stubgun/Autopistol/Laspistol + a few Knives). It was fine, but overall not the most amazing things for variety.
These have a lot more.
and I can buy one and use all of it. I've still got plenty of the wrong lasguns and autopistols in my bits box, 20 years on.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Insurgency Walker wrote: Looks like enforcers will be a long way out. Hope 'Mad Dog' isn't the new Maddonna.
Mad Dog is an Orlock bloke and Mad Donna was a woman, so ... probably not. Also, if you're waiting for Enforcers to come along because you want Adeptus Arbites knockoffs with shotguns and carapace armour, you'll probably be disappointed. I suspect the look of whichever Hive's Enforcers they do (the background implies, IIRC, that each Hive has their own) will be very different.
zedmeister wrote: Front left lassie looks like she's carrying a lightning gun!?
This one?
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, pets, big guys, bounty hunters, hangers on... I'm loving all the add ons we're going to be getting this time around, really bulks up the rp/personalisation of the gangs.
I really like that Van Saar look. Delaque remind me of some of the later Imperial characters for Star Wars. Cawdor look...well, like Cawdor.
Also, the comments on Arbites(for those who don't want to read them via Twitter):
They’re working on making the difference between Adeptus Arbites and Enforcers more clear - Enforcers will be seen in Necro’ whereas squads of Arbites won’t....
Hooray! Differentiation!
I mean there's also some discussion about vehicles and stuff in Necro but blaaah, Enforcers yaaay!
Warhams-77 wrote: I think they haven't changed much, the pic reminds me of John Blanche's art.
Last time I checked, Delaque weren't walking around with full re-breathers that make 'em look like the guy on the left or Slicks. They look a little more like this.
Oh look, a new poster. Thank you for your helpful and productive contribution to the thread. Truly an example. Maybe you should brush up on the forum rules, specifically Rule 1
So glad I get an annual pay raise... gonna need it...loving the Escher upgrades and if the other houses get the same, awesome.
Would be nice if they could do individual clam packs for leaders and champs for each faction as alternate poses, and maybe packs of 2 for juves to flesh out the gangs.
Was there any kind of updated release schedule mentioned for any of these?
Warhams-77 wrote: I think they haven't changed much, the pic reminds me of John Blanche's art.
Last time I checked, Delaque weren't walking around with full re-breathers that make 'em look like the guy on the left. They look a little more like this.
Last time you checked they weren’t using Spook to force-awaken unregistered psykers to use as telepathic espionage devices and/or disposable weapons either.
That said, he could be a leader-concept. Command collar with access to information and all-channel radio to the gang?
The Guild stuff is incredible. That's like proper weird gothic 40K stuff right there, the type of stuff you (used to) see in artwork and always thought'd be fun if they actually made miniatures for.
The idea of Guild Gangs has been touched on before, but this seems like a proper expansion.
Love the sound of all the extra hired guns, and that Goliath bounty hunter is ace.
This concept art is all fantastic. I will get into the game in a year or so when I can buy all the rules in a bundle and these concepts have all been turned into minis.
I hope GW/FW/BL get round to producing a big Necromunda background book(or series) at some point. They have obviously put a lot into that side internally.
If the augmented bounty hunter Slagmyst looks anything like the art, then he'll be an auto-buy. I love 2 of the 3 hired guns and all of the gang animals.
Glad you like the pics guys - my Twitter feed has blown up a little today!
In terms of other tidbits;
Andy Hoare mentioned that he wants to show that the different settings (Hive Secundus, Hive Mortis, The Sump Sea, Eye of Selene) will all ‘play’ in different ways (example was given that Hive Secundus should be more survival horror with rad-infested remnants of the GS Cult who still live in the ruins).
There was mention of the reintroduction of Juves - with specific ‘talents’ to differentiate them from older gangers. But keep them in the style of the new rules
Weapon expansion packs will lead to the stores and Rare stores lists expanding, but don’t expect to see Plasma guns, lascannons etc... the intent is to give more ‘weaponised’ civilian kit in the way the lists do now, with very rare or even unique pieces making their way in and small amounts.
Xerox races are being kept out, as to introduce them would ‘zoom out’ from the idea of Necromunda (so don’t expect to see Eldar or Kroot bounty hunters for example).however abhumans are fair game.
Same goes for Inquisitors - seen as being far too powerful
The Crocodog is on a 40mm base!
Caryatids are a call back to the OG Confrontation days, and attach themselves to those who become great, or Carry out great deeds....
The FAQ for the core rule book and GW is incoming very shortly.
Oh man, I am excited by N17 and was planning on getting everything but looks like they are rapidly going to explode the content, may come a little too quick to keep up painting with at this rate... that being said, if they are all priced as reasonably as the 3 bounty hunter box... well this may yet latch its vampiric fangs into my wallet on every release...
MajorTom11 wrote: Oh man, I am excited by N17 and was planning on getting everything but looks like they are rapidly going to explode the content, may come a little too quick to keep up with at this rate... that being said, if they are all priced as reasonably as the 3 bounty hunter box... well this may yet latch it's vampiric fangs into my wallet on every release...
Only thing that makes me sad is the no Xenos. I was wondering if Necro 2.0 was actually Rogue Trader 2.0, but this is going in cool new directions. I think a lot of this stuff will end up in painters and RPGers hands. In fact I'd hope the new RPG crew brings out a Necromunda setting/adventure book.
Any hope for a Shadow War 2.0 game using the same rules and "gang" strategies as a replacement for Kill Team...
Chairman Aeon wrote: Only thing that makes me sad is the no Xenos. I was wondering if Necro 2.0 was actually Rogue Trader 2.0, but this is going in cool new directions. I think a lot of this stuff will end up in painters and RPGers hands. In fact I'd hope the new RPG crew brings out a Necromunda setting/adventure book.
Any hope for a Shadow War 2.0 game using the same rules and "gang" strategies as a replacement for Kill Team...
To be fair, if Xenos showed up in Necromunda I don't think the gangs would stand a chance. Or the hive in general.
Chairman Aeon wrote: Only thing that makes me sad is the no Xenos. I was wondering if Necro 2.0 was actually Rogue Trader 2.0, but this is going in cool new directions. I think a lot of this stuff will end up in painters and RPGers hands. In fact I'd hope the new RPG crew brings out a Necromunda setting/adventure book.
Any hope for a Shadow War 2.0 game using the same rules and "gang" strategies as a replacement for Kill Team...
I thoughtt Genestealer Cults and Ork infestations were confirned?
Chairman Aeon wrote: Only thing that makes me sad is the no Xenos. I was wondering if Necro 2.0 was actually Rogue Trader 2.0, but this is going in cool new directions. I think a lot of this stuff will end up in painters and RPGers hands. In fact I'd hope the new RPG crew brings out a Necromunda setting/adventure book.
Any hope for a Shadow War 2.0 game using the same rules and "gang" strategies as a replacement for Kill Team...
I thoughtt Genestealer Cults and Ork infestations were confirned?
I think I saw something on cults in this thread, but I missed orks. GSC isn't the same as a full blown alien invasion though. I think most hives might have them, as it seems logical that the nids would want to infiltrate as many worlds as possible, even if it would take them a while to get to them. Not sure how they could do an ork infestation, because that's a pretty serious incident. Orks are a bitch to remove from a world once they get there due to their spores.
......This new stuff is waaaay too cool. If the minis live up to the art, I may be interested in Van Saar and Delaque for the first time ever. The guild stuff all looks fantastic. And I have to have that Ex-Goliath Bounty hunter......and that sumpcroc. Now if FW will just put the pedal to the metal and start giving Andy and co a bit more resource to really start churning this stuff out....they'll be making money hand over fist off me.
I will be very impressed if GW manage to create functional vehicle rules for the Ash Wastes that work in the alternating activations system. I've been struggling since N17 released.
lord_blackfang wrote: I will be very impressed if GW manage to create functional vehicle rules for the Ash Wastes that work in the alternating activations system. I've been struggling since N17 released.
Wait, wait, wait, who allowed such a brilliant thing as the water guild to be made?! Awesome stuff. Brutes sound interesting.
I can dig the new Delaque, but I shope that Cawdor will still have some with the full hoods and masks. The Eschers are making sure that Ratskins never come back with all the feathers and more tribal decoratios, eh? I like those dudes. I still beat myself up over not getting the Rat Caller.
Binabik15 wrote: The Eschers are making sure that Ratskins never come back with all the feathers and more tribal decoratios, eh? I like those dudes. I still beat myself up over not getting the Rat Caller.
I can see the ratskins being OK; the Escher don’t seem to be into full pelts as an adornment and look to prefer feathers anyway.
Big ol’ rat-pelt as both hood and cloak is sufficiently different I think. Plus they can play up the archaeotech-cult/lost tribe of maintenance workers angle with circuit-board chest guards and circuit-pattern tattoos. And shamen with actual functioning gear.
rybackstun wrote: I wonder what Palanite Enforcers will end up being? That could get me into Munda.
Enforcers in service of the Palatine House, of course. No-one else is allowed to create such an organisation because reasons. They enforce the Will of House Helmawr directly, by guarding important individuals, locations, and shipments, and also by hunting “criminals” such as anyone foolish enough to question their betters. Naturally, the further down-hive and away from the source of their legal authority you get, the meaner they get!
Did anyone by chance get to find out which gang we will be seeing next? I know originally it was said to be Van Saar, but in some Warhammer TV thing Andy Hoare said something along the lines of "don't believe the release schedule you've heard." At least that's what I remember gleaning from reading around. Honestly with the teaser artwork, I'd be happy with any of the three (originally I wasn't sure on Van Saar or Delaque). I do have a feeling it will be Cawdor, if only because they already have art for their "pet."
BrookM wrote: Or a poorly done greenstuff job, obviously a fake right?
Nah, can’t you see the pink highlights? It must be ProCreate….
Sabotage! wrote: Did anyone by chance get to find out which gang we will be seeing next? I know originally it was said to be Van Saar, but in some Warhammer TV thing Andy Hoare said something along the lines of "don't believe the release schedule you've heard." At least that's what I remember gleaning from reading around. Honestly with the teaser artwork, I'd be happy with any of the three (originally I wasn't sure on Van Saar or Delaque). I do have a feeling it will be Cawdor, if only because they already have art for their "pet."
The next gang(s) are genestealer and chaos cultists, next month in WD.
No idea what the next House gang will be, though part of me suspects Cawdor, for reasons.
Sabotage! wrote: Did anyone by chance get to find out which gang we will be seeing next? I know originally it was said to be Van Saar, but in some Warhammer TV thing Andy Hoare said something along the lines of "don't believe the release schedule you've heard." At least that's what I remember gleaning from reading around. Honestly with the teaser artwork, I'd be happy with any of the three (originally I wasn't sure on Van Saar or Delaque). I do have a feeling it will be Cawdor, if only because they already have art for their "pet."
I was actually hoping we would find out more about that today. If these gangs get released 3-4 months apart and Orlocks go on pre order next week you'd think they would let us know what is next. Maybe they don't want to steal the thunder away from the Orlocks before they are even released.
Also a lot of this stuff is artwork and promises but that doesn't mean it will see the light of day especially the guild stuff. Anyone remember the art for the nurgle blood bowl team? yeah...
It's the plastic gangs that matter most to me, but at least we know those are a guarantee.
From hereon out, all non-GW images in this thread get put in spoiler tags. Until the thread can show that it won't spam images that are a) off topic and b) too large for the post (and so cause issues on people's devices), you lose the toy.
Mr_Rose wrote: The next gang(s) are genestealer and chaos cultists, next month in WD.
Is it confirmed that both are in the same issue?
Previously they had said one in Q1 and one in Q2 so would be good to get confirmation if this has changed (perhaps to make space for the hired guns gang?).
H.B.M.C. wrote: Well the old metal weapon packs only had the basic and pistol holy trinities (Autogun/Lasgun/Shotgun & Stubgun/Autopistol/Laspistol + a few Knives). It was fine, but overall not the most amazing things for variety.
These have a lot more.
and I can buy one and use all of it. I've still got plenty of the wrong lasguns and autopistols in my bits box, 20 years on.
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Insurgency Walker wrote: Looks like enforcers will be a long way out. Hope 'Mad Dog' isn't the new Maddonna.
Mad Dog is an Orlock bloke and Mad Donna was a woman, so ... probably not. Also, if you're waiting for Enforcers to come along because you want Adeptus Arbites knockoffs with shotguns and carapace armour, you'll probably be disappointed. I suspect the look of whichever Hive's Enforcers they do (the background implies, IIRC, that each Hive has their own) will be very different.
Do I want Arbites? Yes. Will I be disappointed by non Arbites enforcers, no way. Everything I have seen looks awsome.
Enforcers are the private security of house Helmwar. Sounds odd until you realise Helmwar pretty much run the entire world, so they make sure the rules of House Helmwar are obeyed in a feudal sense.
Enforcers are the private security of house Helmwar. Sounds odd until you realise Helmwar pretty much run the entire world, so they make sure the rules of House Helmwar are obeyed in a feudal sense.
Arbites are the enforcers of Imperial law.
Ok, that makes sense.
So Arbites are like the feds, and Enforcers are like the local police?
For those who don't know the Caryatid were fluff from Confrontation, the never completed predecessor to Necromunda. Basically these little bat winged imps were a native lifeform that would would attach themselves to people of destiny and would show up all over Blanche's concept art. So seeing them in... it's like whoa.
Ok, that makes sense.
So Arbites are like the feds, and Enforcers are like the local police?
Pretty much, yes.
Originally the fluff was that the Arbites were the law but at some point GW decided that a bunch of hive gangers didn't rate Imperial attention.
So during the Specialist Games era of Necromunda GW made a line of Arbites look alikes called Enforcers who took their place. IIRC there was even fluff that the Enforces deliberately dressed like Arbites.
No one minded, everyone loved that and yes, I would run out and but a whole army if any sort of shotgun-totting jack booted thugs came out.
For those who don't know the Caryatid were fluff from Confrontation, the never completed predecessor to Necromunda. Basically these little bat winged imps were a native lifeform that would would attach themselves to people of destiny and would show up all over Blanche's concept art. So seeing them in... it's like whoa.
They were all over old Necromunda art - is it that surprising they'd carry through editions?
They are such a tease. All this lovely concept art yesterday, then today they hit us with a whole bunch of finished minis. It is all looking fantastic. Love that cyber mastiff, the pets, the bounty hunter with the big hat, the Escher character and even the squat.
You know, I think that Orlock plasma gun might be the first sensibly-sized special weapon I've seen on a human model since the 2nd Ed metal Guardsmen
Seriously though - wow. I'm even less enamoured with the Squat now I've seen the model(if you're going for nostalgia, at least go back to the oldschool Dwarf proportions rather than the modern LotR-style ones), but everything else is at least tempting. I will be having one of those croco-things for my Goliath boss.
I really do want to see how they've split up these weapon packs for sale before I let myself get too excited though. If you end up being pretty much required to buy all of them in order to get the stuff most folk really want(ie, the stuff that isn't a variant of something in the plastic kits and which can't be easily converted with a simple weapon-swap), it'll feel a tad exploitative, and I'd rather they exploit us by putting out mental and amazing looking stuff like the Bounty Hunters and pets than by nickle & diming on the "everyday" parts. But, that's a wait & see thing.
I don’t want the Orlock chief ( does he have a brother called Funky Cole?) but I do want his dog. The way things are going, I half-expect someone to have a pet ptera-squirrel or an ambull.
Wow! After seeing all this and realizing that GW/FW can still make amazing things I want real Eldar Corsairs from FW, not add-on kits. Anyways, been a while since I ordered from FW, I see that will be changing soon...
Could we ask FW for a Necromunda monthly subscription? (Only half joking.)
Thus far, it’s definitely starting to look like the Necromunda i always wanted.
I know resin isn’t everyone’s preference, but in terms of adding variety to Gangs, these weapons packs definitely look to do the job. Of course, their division across the packs remains to be seen clearly. But that Gangs now have no upper body count, I don’t expect to have many kicking about ultimately unused. There’s also room for 3rd Parties to fill in any gaps, provided FW don’t.
Gribbly beasties, exotic bounty hunters, random scum and that, all helping to make Necromunda realise it’s stylistic potential.
All combined with the amazing scenery available from GW and others, this is what I’ve always wanted!
I mean, it’s like Judge Dredd, a setting that shares similarities in tone and insanity. Just reading the main Dredd stories is akin to the previous takes. Utterly enjoyable and unique. But this? This is like the side stories set in Mega City One. We’re starting to see who else inhabits that world, and how they add to the richer flavour,
I for one applaud it. And if the rules don’t always quite work out? This is Necromunda, and home brew tweaks and changes are nothing new. Perhaps not everyone’s opinion, of even a popular or common one, but holds true for me
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Thus far, it’s definitely starting to look like the Necromunda i always wanted.
I know resin isn’t everyone’s preference, but in terms of adding variety to Gangs, these weapons packs definitely look to do the job. Of course, their division across the packs remains to be seen clearly. But that Gangs now have no upper body count, I don’t expect to have many kicking about ultimately unused. There’s also room for 3rd Parties to fill in any gaps, provided FW don’t.
The issue isn't "Ewwww, resin!".
The issue is that it's Forge World--something that has to be specially ordered, with a fairly significant shipping & handling fee with no real way for people to grab them via their local shops.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: There is that, but no more or less faff in my life when it comes to procuring non-GW stuff.
The difference being that for you, Forge World is something that you can make a trip to Nottingham for. It might not be the most convenient thing for you depending on where you are in the UK--but it is an option for a day trip or whatnot.
Here in the US? It's either ordering it from FW or waiting for an event that you're going to attend with FW being present(which tend to be the 'Big' events meaning one has to wait in huge lines and in many cases, make arrangements for hotel lodgings or live near the event in question).
And if something is wonky, FW usually ask only a photo, and a replacement will be sent out.
I'm usually okay with FW's policies, but man did they screw me over with my Merwyrm. The tail had a gap that prevented it from being assembled properly and there was a ton of missing detail on the head of the beastie. When I showed them the gap, they claimed it was because I assembled the rest of the model wrong(the tail has multiple pieces before it attaches to the main body). They didn't do anything for me because "they didn't see any issues in the photographs" and told me that I "should have followed the directions"(which don't actually show you the way that the tail is supposed to attach to the main body and the wrecked ship it stands upon).
FW being "usually okay" is fine--but there's always that small chance that they decide you are at fault even when you're not.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: There is that, but no more or less faff in my life when it comes to procuring non-GW stuff.
The difference being that for you, Forge World is something that you can make a trip to Nottingham for. It might not be the most convenient thing for you depending on where you are in the UK--but it is an option for a day trip or whatnot.
Actually those in the UK are more likely to mailorder than pop into the actual store.
That said I'm always surprised that GW and FW don't do something together for international orders to at least make the process a little less painful. UK its fine as its just mail order, but from what I gather FW orders tend to get stuck in customs and such as its always an import order rather than having any bulk channel or other avenue through local outlets and the like.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: There is that, but no more or less faff in my life when it comes to procuring non-GW stuff.
The difference being that for you, Forge World is something that you can make a trip to Nottingham for. It might not be the most convenient thing for you depending on where you are in the UK--but it is an option for a day trip or whatnot.
Actually those in the UK are more likely to mailorder than pop into the actual store.
That said I'm always surprised that GW and FW don't do something together for international orders to at least make the process a little less painful. UK its fine as its just mail order, but from what I gather FW orders tend to get stuck in customs and such as its always an import order rather than having any bulk channel or other avenue through local outlets and the like.
The reason I make mention of the store in any regards is that it does make a difference for availability. There's a physical storefront where you can pick up the items day of or to place an order for them using any accepted pay method and have it shipped free to the store for pick-up or for a cost to your residence.
Literally all GW would need to do to get me buying FW stuff more often is to place it as being available via the GW webstore here in the US.
Man, if the specialist games section the new Forge World? These models blow anything FW did in last two years (even not counting banana SW and Valdor...) out of the water. Most of it looks excellent, has ties to old lore and civilian life of the Imperium, I was kinda skeptical about the whole Necromunda project but now I want to see more. The only thing that could made this all better is 8th edition rules for these minis to be included as auxiliary force to IG or GSC. Oh well, there is always counts as, all of the gangs with slight conversions would make pretty sweet IG regiments actually.
Also, these (especially industrial guilds and zealots) are 'blanchisms' done right. They actually look alien and Gothic in a way that looks reasonably practical and could fit a future culture. They are not cartoonish, ridiculous, or stupid (even the Queen looks awesome, and it would be easiest thing in the world to execute her concept badly...), why this sculptor wasn't chosen for Veridyan?
Yodhrin wrote: You know, I think that Orlock plasma gun might be the first sensibly-sized special weapon I've seen on a human model since the 2nd Ed metal Guardsmen
Not only this, one of them has a combi-melta that actually looks like it could work, unlike GW ones with their their teleporting bolts, no-internal-space, and ejection ports in random places. Both weapons scaled sensibly, ammunition with clear path to chamber and ejection window, the sculptor actually spent five minutes to think imagining design that looks like real deal, not random collection of parts. I'd recommend these guys to anyone starting IG army over all GW and FW models now
Literally all GW would need to do to get me buying FW stuff more often is to place it as being available via the GW webstore here in the US.
Why does it matter which webstore you order it from?
Being able to go into the shop and place an order via the in-store terminals would mean that it's a hell of a lot easier to acquire for a hell of a lot more people. It also opens it up for people ordering it via the webstore and paying with cash instead of only debit/credit/PayPal.
I have been resisting like hell. I only have time for 1 game and D&D I said.
Bollocks, every - single - miniature I have seen so far has been amazing! The "Mad Dog" one I'm getting for sure, it's ridiculous how good it looks but the Water Guild?! Good Gods, I want to see what miniatures that concept art turns into!
Gaaah, this, together with the snake-girls, may turn 2018 into my most expensive GW year yet.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Hired Guns & Hangers On are in GW2, so maybe that'll include pets?
The weapons though, probably GW3 as that's meant to have everything in there.
Including the remaining 3 gangs? I don't like being drip fed the core factions.
I also don't like how the core rulebook is still not separate.
The rulebook won't be sold separate as-is because it's not really a separate rulebook. It's too tied in to the 'box game', being a different system when it comes to skills, gangs, costs, weapons, stats, cards and scenarios. The thing would need heavy editing and possibly a fair amount of copy-pasting from GW1 to be ready to be sold separately. Seeing all the mess GW created so far, I don't see that happening anytime soon. At least it didn't for Blood Bowl, and that's 15 months ago.
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lord_blackfang wrote: Boy am I glad I bought 2 of each gang, and did not glue down any weapons!
I don't really regret having glued down my Goliath gang because of two reasons; first I have already had a handfull of games to test the game, and secondly even if you get all the fancy weapons, you still gonna need a gang with mainly basic weapons. Heavy and special weapons don't come in abundance for Necromunda gangs.
Being able to go into the shop and place an order via the in-store terminals would mean that it's a hell of a lot easier to acquire for a hell of a lot more people. It also opens it up for people ordering it via the webstore and paying with cash instead of only debit/credit/PayPal.
Would people want to pay more to be able to order iva physical store? And if so, why?
Being able to go into the shop and place an order via the in-store terminals would mean that it's a hell of a lot easier to acquire for a hell of a lot more people. It also opens it up for people ordering it via the webstore and paying with cash instead of only debit/credit/PayPal.
Would people want to pay more to be able to order iva physical store? And if so, why?
If the 15% surcharge was removed, then yes they might be able to charge a little bit more. The only advantage I would see to being able to order and/or pick up in-store would be the removal of the shipping charges, which I think are a bit exorbitant right now.
Now, FW and GW are separate entities. I have no insight into how they manage the respective supply chains, but I assume they are also basically separate. Not sure how they would integrate it with GW, but it wouldn't be too difficult to just use GW as a sort of parcel pick-up point for weekly shipments?
out by part of the fleet. Pretty soon trikes and bikes will come out.
)
I have been resisting like hell. I only have time for 1 game and D&D I said.