Out of curiosity.. have you guys taken a look at the casting quality of the Miriya minis? My metal miriya is fairly pitted and "dirty" compared with most other metal minis of the same size over the past 20 years. It's hard to tell exactly how that will affect the final look but looking at the bare metal isn't encouraging. The resin version has some poorly placed vents but otherwise is seems well cast.
Mine needs major work done on it. Just like yours mine was dirty too. Building it is going to be a nightmare. I hate working with large metal figs. I still remember how much trouble I had building the Inq 54mm models. So I'm glad this is going to be plastic.
Mike1975 wrote: Since I had it all out and dated way before I was let in I find that hard to believe. Especially since I've told them they could freely use my ideas and work when we get to another KS for the other generations. I'm not it this for personal gain, although the freebies are nice, I'm in this because this is something I've waited for since I was an 8 years old kid watching cartoons at home.
You are wayyyy too nice.
But I agree 98% with your outlook.
Robotech mecha was the coolest thing out at the time and for long after.
Battletech took some of the edge off but it was not the same.
Cypher-xv wrote: Mine needs major work done on it. Just like yours mine was dirty too. Building it is going to be a nightmare. I hate working with large metal figs. I still remember how much trouble I had building the Inq 54mm models. So I'm glad this is going to be plastic.
From just test fitting the pieces, it'll likely require as much prep work as the resin version. The metal pieces (at least the three big ones I tried) don't dry fit very well. Of course, the above isn't taking into account the rough surface pitting that my pieces have that hopefully won't be evident even through paint.
Hm, I'm thinking of requesting a refund at this point.
While I enjoyed Robotech a lot as a youth, I'm not sure I want to stay in for another year or so on the Palladium bs train, especially with the delays going to be taking us into the period where I get charged a ton of extra GST (VAT) on top of it when (if) it eventually gets shipped. Especially for the amount of cash I went in for in the end.
I figure the 25-odd years I haven't had a Robotech minis game so far will mean it doesn't make that much of a difference if I can get my money back from these assclowns and put it into something else.
Anyone got any info on refunds? If any have been requested/granted/processed by PB?
Azazelx wrote: Hm, I'm thinking of requesting a refund at this point.
While I enjoyed Robotech a lot as a youth, I'm not sure I want to stay in for another year or so on the Palladium bs train, especially with the delays going to be taking us into the period where I get charged a ton of extra GST (VAT) on top of it when (if) it eventually gets shipped. Especially for the amount of cash I went in for in the end.
I figure the 25-odd years I haven't had a Robotech minis game so far will mean it doesn't make that much of a difference if I can get my money back from these assclowns and put it into something else.
Anyone got any info on refunds? If any have been requested/granted/processed by PB?
That GST is for reals? I thought the fact those useless liberal monkeys killed the dollar might make up for it. So we'll gave a weaker dollar plus GST. feth you Gerry Harvey.
Tempting to ask for refund especially with Amazon helping out.
I think that will be plan B if it is November 2014 and threats of being "98%" done continue.
"Remember, remember the 5th of November" seems appropriate.
I think explosives across the border are frowned upon so don't get any ideas.
Putting my evil hat on, if I was PB I would try to send out some item, ANYTHING and get people to accept them.
Then they could say that some elements of the kickstarter shipped so no one can claim a refund.
Present it like this:
"I know you are all drooling over the gorgeous models and we thought you should have a chance at getting something before the BIG release: we will send one battleoid for free (1 model rather than 3 with a veritech) to each backer all you need to do is pay for shipping so you can get an early start on those loads of models your pledge got you."
The evil side of my thinking are rarely acted on but sure do scare the heck out of me when those predictions are correct.
No.. I don't think there will be anything nefarious like that. If anything, I suspect what we have is a situation of a company well past its prime and incredibly prideful/stubborn/resistant to the changes that might help it licensing from an IP from the same type of company...
So, I had a big post typed up last night regarding refunds, but Dakka appeared to double post it, and then when I fixed the second, it ate the original.
Let's try this again.
I've heard of people having some luck getting refunds from campaign creators, and some others managing to get cash back from their credit cards. Many (most?) seem to have a ~90 day limit on transaction reversals, but there have been exceptions made.
I guess the first step would be to ask Palladium. Given that Amazon/Kickstarter take around 10% in fees, I'd be surprised if they were willing to give more than 90% back, if they're willing to play ball at all.
Then would be Amazon payments, if just to make sure that you don't screw with the system in a way that prevents you from using it in the future, assuming you're not entirely put off of using KS ever again at this point.
Then there'd be simply trying to get a reversal through your credit card (assuming you used one). If you've made it this far and didn't use a credit card, you're probably screwed. I guess you could talk to your bank, but that seems like an uphill battle.
It drives me up the wall that so many people laud the lack of consumer protections in these projects as a feature, rather than a detriment. When I buy something off Amazon normally, there are like 4 layers of protection, ranging from their Customer Service desk to submitting a chargeback request, etc. Yes, that's for buying an actual product rather than helping one get developed, but backers don't sign a waiver stating they'll remain infinitely patient either.
I don't know if it could even be reasonably enforced, but it'd be nice if there were a mechanism for this built into the system, that Creators would have to agree to. Like, if a project isn't delivered within 150% of its delivery time (so 18 months on a 1 year project), they legally agree to pay refunds to whomever requests one. Something that would make them stop and think really, really hard about giving a realistic timeline and then padding it a bit for contingencies.
I guess I'm just really tired of hearing "omg rainbows and sunshine and we're soooo faaaaar alooooong youuuuuu guysssssss" during campaigns, and then "omg this is totes hard and taking forever! Woe is us, the small company of noobies whom have never done this before!" six months later.
I don't know if it could even be reasonably enforced, but it'd be nice if there were a mechanism for this built into the system, that Creators would have to agree to. Like, if a project isn't delivered within 150% of its delivery time (so 18 months on a 1 year project), they legally agree to pay refunds to whomever requests one. Something that would make them stop and think really, really hard about giving a realistic timeline and then padding it a bit for contingencies.
That's a great idea but I don't think Kickstarter or especially Amazon want to get involved in the return of monies paid as a general feature open to all (as opposed to the current defacto only available to the most persistent). I do agree that having an automated refund process as part of the funding would be a huge incentive for companies to as accurately as possible estimate their delivery dates.
Oh, Kickstarter and Amazon are very clear about not wanting any part in that, and I can't fault them for it.
I just think it's bullgak that creators can lowball their delivery dates, lie through their teeth every step of the way, and then fall back on cushions of rabid fans who will defend to their last breath how honest and upstanding and amazing they are and why don't we just see that they're so beset and overwhelmed by the love and adoration that gets heaped on them!?
I swear, some of these guys make me think of those over the top "WHY WON'T YOU PEOPLE JUST LEAVE BRITTANY ALONE" youtube videos.
If deadlines were enforced, then every Kickstarter project would be listed as five to ten years. And that'll be written "We expect to finish within a year, but we're not stupid so we chose the longest possible term from the options."
And they'd probably see giant hits to what people were willing to contribute, which in turn would make the projects more realistic (fewer "OMG we'll add a hundred models to the line and you'll all get five times the amount we started the tiers at!" bonanzas), which might help projects actually deliver on time or even early.
Imagine if this one had only done a million dollars? Or 500,000? Something that was still wildly successful, but didn't require them to add another dozen sculpts to the lineup.
Sure, we'd be buying a bunch of the figures at retail.
But they'd probably be at retail right this minute.
Cyporiean wrote: Or they could have still had the same hang ups they have now.
Possibly.
I have a sneaking suspicion that adding all those "experimental" mechs at the end probably added a ton more work and slowed the process down.
And note, I'm not saying that "things MUST deliver by the date or they have to issue full refunds to everyone!". I'm saying that creators would simply agree to offer a refund to people who requested one after a certain amount after the end date. Maybe it'd be 50% after, or 100%. If someone says to themselves "this ought to take me 7 months, let's make it one year, just to be safe", presumably if they're not an idiot or beset by the wrath of god, 1.5-2 years should be enough time to at least start shipping things out.
But obviously Amazon/Kickstarter are happy with the status quo, especially since they get paid up front.
Now, if Amazon/Kickstarter's cut sat in escrow until the project delivered, or something, I'll bet they'd have a lot more interest in things moving along, but why change the status quo in a fashion less profitable for them, just because some backers watch projects fail to meet deadline after deadline.
Which is to say that I doubt writing them up and suggesting they suddenly become less lucrative/profitable probably wouldn't go over well, but it's a shame that so many users see the lack of basic consumer protections as not only 'a thing' but a positive thing at that. That's messed up.
Oh, I've read through his screeds, and killed an evening plowing through something like 100 pages of a thread he linked to on rpg.net where some of the freelancers spoke their minds (though some later recanted their condemnation).
It was fascinating, especially since the discussion happened around half a decade ago, essentially half a decade since I last followed the company closely, which meant that many of the names cropping up were people I was familiar with from my days reading their works in Rifters and as appended names to various books (sometimes...).
My gaming backing history is:
1. Ogre
2. Traveller 5
3. Reaper Bones
4. Through the Breach
5. Wild West Exodus
6. Underground Lasers (terrain)
7. Warzone Resurrection
8. Robotech RPG 9. Deadzone
followed by some more recent projects.
What realistic time schedules for delivery? If you want to complain about the conflicts and problems inherent in the Kickstarter model of doing things, including backers agreeing to take risks but being unwilling to commit to those risks, the inability to update deadlines as the project scope balloons, and the general inability of people to choose reasonable deadlines, go right ahead.
I think the problem is the implicit (and sometimes explicit) notion about KS that one of the reasons backers take the risk is because the companies will be transparent throughout the process. Now, backers don't have a monolithic sense of transparency and among those who have any developed sense of it at all there is probably a great diversity. For example, it would not surprise me if the people complaining the most bitterly rivaled Kevin Siembieda in terms of being control freaks. Even so, companies that take pledge dollars and then offer little meaningful information to their customers are acting in a sleazy way and no appeal to "the risks" can sanitize that.
Anybody think we'll get an update today? I'm thinking no...
Now that Relic Knights has suspended production for the Chinese new year, I feel pretty certain we're not going to see anything produced for Robotech for a while.
After the response to the last update, I think Kevin might be hesitant to tell us anything. Which, again, sucks.
I love how we gave him more than a million dollars and he's claiming to be in the dark. I'd of been soooooooooooo fired if that was my response to my boss.
Hey guys does anyone know if the factory that's producing relic knights will also produce RRT? I ask because I just saw on FB that's it's shutting down for Chinese new year.
Manchu wrote: For example, it would not surprise me if the people complaining the most bitterly rivaled Kevin Siembieda in terms of being control freaks.
Man... that hurts... :-(
Cypher-xv wrote: Forar you or the cabal or whoever it was were right about PB associates insulting their customers. At least on FB they do.lol
I first heard about this "cabal" (aside from the odd strange forum signature) a few months ago.
Just added it onto the grocery list of oddities about that place.
Palladium has a very odd fan base.
I mean, sure, we've been over why/how they are that way repeatedly.
Yeah one thread got closed by a super fan only to have it reopen days later. I've never seen that, ever. Also word on the street says that super fan was booted from their boards.
I almost forgot one guy in the group who isn't a backer of RRT heard about the comments section and now follows it. He says it's entertaining.
Update #78 Feb 21, 2013
Even more, we're happy to say that all of the models have been delivered to our manufacturers. Now that the Chinese New Year has passed they have begun tooling and mold-making. We have been told that since there are so many models to be done this process will take roughly six weeks
Update #79 Apr 4, 2013
New firm ship date - November
With spring's arrival, we know many of you are on pins and needles, and we are glad to say we have received a production timeline from our manufacturers. Unfortunately, it misses our May target date. The current production schedule we have been provided with has Relic Knights shipping from China in August. Which means our warehouse will receive product around November to ship to you
As Relic Knights expanded the scope of the project also expanded and the time ballooned right alongside. Our initial quote for creating the molds for all the models was 1.5 months. That time quote has now increased to 3.5 months. Consequently the time of production down the entire line increases; ultimately arriving at the new November date.
Update #97 Dec 9, 2013
Production Update--which basically said---finish before Jan. 31 or wait the 3 weeks of chinese new years and pick up after that.
Yeah, watching the Relic Knights thing slip towards a full year late isn't helping my sunny disposition.
Even if RRT is using another factory and the lines have nothing in common aside from a few Soda Pop people working with Ninja Division, it's a bit disheartening.
Not to mention empathizing with the RK backers. Even when people are all "lol, KS is always late" I don't think many of them seriously believe it'll be a full 12 months+ late.
Typically its 2-3 weeks across most factories (which is their yearly break), but it seems longer in production terms as things have to ramp back up again (and you often have a lot of maintenance done before things re-start)
It makes more sense for the whole place to close down than try to struggle on with too few staff, and as it's a national thing you've not got to worry about your competitors doing you out of business
(I know I've been at work with so may folk off that we might as well have been shut for all the actual work we got done)
We actually have a similar situation in Scotland (on a more local level with each town/city having their 'trades' holidays which are a month when most factories/trades were closed
(not so uniform now as it was when I was a kid in the 70s but still observed by many smaller businesses, if you need a plumber/electrician etc you need to go to the next town/village to look for them)
RK was being held up while RRT was in the works (they got a 6 month delay announcement during the RRT campaign, as I recall), so it's even possible that both led to delays with each other.
Similarly, if they're using the same facility for production, those issues could be compounding each other further, especially if they expected one to be done by now, rather than both caught in a logjam at the new year.
And now Mega Man might join the mix in March, depending on far along they are and what they need of their pending production facilities.
I mean, it's due in October 2014. Surely that won't be pushed back... ;-)
There's no way Mega Man is going to affect anything. After all, Ninja Division said:
"To help ensure realistic deadlines, we have completed the vast majority of our development before launching the Kickstarter. Sculpts for the game pieces are almost entirely complete. The rulebook and game components are deep in development and will be ready for layout soon. Our manufacturers are also ready and have reserved factory time for the project. This means that as soon as the project is funded, we can lock down a timeline with our manufacturers to get the game produced."
Just for reference.. the following is the risks section for Mega Man...
Spoiler:
A project of this scope requires the successful collaboration of artists, sculptors, writers, game designers, and manufacturers. Managing this complex process and minimizing delays are the largest challenges we face in bringing Mega Man the Board Game to market. We have learned from past experience that success requires careful planning and a full understanding of the scope of the project. In order to facilitate the timely delivery of Mega Man The Board Game, Jasco Games and Ninja Division have brought in a host of new talent to work on the project.
To help ensure realistic deadlines, we have completed the vast majority of our development before launching the Kickstarter. Sculpts for the game pieces are almost entirely complete. The rulebook and game components are deep in development and will be ready for layout soon. Our manufacturers are also ready and have reserved factory time for the project. This means that as soon as the project is funded, we can lock down a timeline with our manufacturers to get the game produced.
It is our commitment to you, the Kickstarter backers, that we will maintain consistent communication throughout the process. This means regular updates, product photos, and plenty of behind the scenes insight as we complete the creation of Mega Man The Board Game.
and Robotech...
Spoiler:
A project of this scope requires the successful collaboration of artists, sculptors, writers, game designers, and manufacturers. Managing this complex process and minimizing delays are the largest challenges we face in bringing Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to market. We have learned from past experience that success requires careful planning and a full understanding of the scope of the project. In order to facilitate the timely delivery of Robotech® RPG Tactics™, Palladium Books and Ninja Division have brought in a host of new talent to work on the project.
To help ensure realistic deadlines, we have completed the vast majority of our development before launching the Kickstarter. Sculpts for the game pieces are almost entirely complete. The rulebook and game components are deep in development and will be ready for layout soon. Our manufacturers are also ready and have reserved factory time for the project. This means that as soon as the project is funded, we can lock down a timeline with our manufacturers to get the game produced.
It is our commitment to you, the Kickstarter backers, that we will maintain consistent communication throughout the process. This means regular updates, product photos, and plenty of behind the scenes insight as we complete the creation of Robotech® RPG Tactics™.
Relic Knights doesn't have a risks section as I believe the campaign predates the requirement of including one. They're identical except for the name of the game and the game company they're working with/for.
I have dozens of them left over from when I was working on my initial version of the game. I have probably around 45-50 of the various pods, veritechs in all 3 forms plus super and armored version, 3-4 of each destroid including the Mac II. I have zero interests in Robotech anymore (thanks to Palladium) and the models are taking up too much room and figured I'd see if anyone is looking for some before they hit ebay. Plenty of additional stuff on sprue that's not pictured.
Are any of these still for sale? I tried e-mailing you directly on your facbook page and store e-mail as well. Am interested in a few items for sure!!
You quoted all that just to write one line instead of following the moderator recommendation to take it to the swap shop where he has a sale thread or use the common sense approach of simply PM'ing him instead? Lol, that's a heck of a first post.
Sorry first time on the site and could not see how the heck to send a messge to the actual person. Found his site but just went to his website, but tried to get hold of him there but did not get a response so wanted to try sending him a mesage through here. no idea how to do that. Will tyr what you suggested
They didn't want to work with my company so they didn't get to use any of my sculpts. Not working with PB was thankfully a blessing in disguise, talk about dodging a major bullet
Nah, the KS mechs are all from Ninja Division, none of my stuff was used for the KS. I'd been dropped out of things 2-3 months before they even contacted ND.
That was back in june-july of 2012 (wow I can't believe how fast that's gone by). I believe they'd gotten in contact with ND around sept but I don't know for sure, first announcements were around dec iirc. I'm not exactly sure what point they began working on their models but early previews came out right around Christmas with the larger unveiling for the KS in april last year. so they had something like a 4-7 month window to tackle the current ND models.
I'd shown off my stuff at adepticon the previous year (2012) and had most of them in progress or completed back in the middle of 2011, which is why I could have had a metal line of minis line out much faster but they passed.
While my past year was slower than I wanted I managed to get out about a dozen releases, where I could have been stuck treading water.
One guy most of the time, although I have worked with some freelancers. I finished a set of 3d models for the destroids myself (along with a veritech that was 90% done and several of the mospeada models) I contracted out the sculpting for the zentraedi pod which was hand sculpted. (and came out excellent) The officer pod was underway at the time but like the veritech it was left uncompleted at the point I left the project.
My initial Tomahawk model was fairly slow as I was still learning 3d but the later ones were significantly faster. Now they typically take me 4-5 days to do a model of that level but I still tend to work "slow" compared to other artists, but I spend a hefty amount of time on the fine detail and scale so I rarely need to go back and make revisions or have the models reprinted. I tend to max out around 4-5 hours a day on 3d, longer than that and I start getting major headaches so a model typically represents about 20-30 hours of work.
Here's a pic of models I'd been working on, these are painted by Maz aka Winterdyne. While the image has circulated around for a while they are not the pieces being used for the current game. People have repeatedly reposted the pics thinking it's the new work by Ninja Division, which it isn't. (These models predate the ND models by almost a year and a half). I also have models for the Regults variants with light and heavy missile launchers, the Regult Scout and prints/models for the Defender, Gladiator, and Spartan. Those were all complete but I took down all the pictures to avoid further confusion with the official models.
Paulson, out of curiosity, what scale would you have gone for with Robotech and what ballpark price should we have expected factoring in two different intervening "bosses"?
I was steadfast about using 1/285th which thankfully was adopted. Initially there was a lot of chatter about using stuff in 1/200 and even 1/100 scale. I knew those were completely wrong for the game and at the time it seemed to be like a lot of wasted effort trying to convince them of it. (remember they weren't minis guys so there were some odd ideas about) But low and behold it's the scale they ended up using. Can't say for certain that I was responsible for the current scale, but I was certainly right about it being the best option.
It may not make sense why I was pushing for Robotech to be 1/285th while my own line is the larger 15mm (1/200) scale, but my reasoning is two fold: The unit count for Mecha Front is small so you don't need to worry about space constraints the same way and being a skirmish game it will sell fewer models. Second my Mecha Front line is being made intended more for the hobby related aspects where a larger model gives you a more open ended product for painting and working on.
Macross/Robotech already has tons of products at larger scales available to hobbist but nothing that was available at a standard gaming scale which is why 1/285th was the perfect choice when they already have the hobby angle well covered. Using models in 1/285th scale reduces production costs significantly and has a much larger cross market. In my opinion much of Robotech's demand is being generated by players wanting to use the models for Battletech to fill in as the "unseens" had the project not been in the same scale I doubt it would have even seen a 1/3rd the backing that it received.
Pricing point strategy for PB & HG I can't get into beyond speculation, as I don't know any specifics on how that drives the final prices.
Update #126 Jan 17, 2014 wrote:Quel-Regult Scout Battlepod
Greetings, all, Wayne from Palladium here. Sorry this Update didn’t come sooner. I really wanted to post something earlier in the week, but the last few days have been ridiculous.
Monday, Ninja John spent several hours on the phone with an engineer in China, sorting out a few issues with a couple of game pieces. We’re expecting several new prototype pieces soon, and we want to get them as close to perfect as possible before they 3D print them and send them to us.
Tuesday, Jeff Burke and I spent almost four hours on the phone with John, going over every detail and fix to send to the engineers for several more pieces. Again, doing our best to “measure twice, cut once,” so to speak.
Yesterday, we had another conference call with several of the Ninjas, going over plans, working on a tooling order, and discussing several other topics.
In the meantime, Jeff is still working on the color guide, we got a new render from a sculptor to double-check how the piece will look after a scaling adjustment, and a ton of other stuff is making the days fly by.
Anyway, here are a few pics of the Quel-Regult Scout Battlepod. Like the others we've posted the last couple of weeks, this is a prototype assembled from 3D printed parts.
Azazelx wrote: Hm, I'm thinking of requesting a refund at this point.
While I enjoyed Robotech a lot as a youth, I'm not sure I want to stay in for another year or so on the Palladium bs train, especially with the delays going to be taking us into the period where I get charged a ton of extra GST (VAT) on top of it when (if) it eventually gets shipped. Especially for the amount of cash I went in for in the end.
I figure the 25-odd years I haven't had a Robotech minis game so far will mean it doesn't make that much of a difference if I can get my money back from these assclowns and put it into something else.
Anyone got any info on refunds? If any have been requested/granted/processed by PB?
That GST is for reals? I thought the fact those useless liberal monkeys killed the dollar might make up for it. So we'll gave a weaker dollar plus GST. feth you Gerry Harvey.
No info yet on how much it will be. Of course, Abbot's mate Harvey wants it to be about $20, but yes, it's very likely to be coming through. Even if it's a somewhat reasonable level like $500, it will include the amount you've paid on postage (as it used to, even though that money isn't even spent in this country) and the RTT amount I've spent is large enough to be hit. I'm also quite concerned that I'll be paying more for the other "oh, sorry, have a pile of delays" projects like Dreamforge, Incursion, Cthulhu Wars, etc
I'm starting to think my earliest concerns were actually valid and not the crazy hyperbole even I thought they might be after taking a step back.
Man, I really want this damn game. I just hate that my favorite childhood IP is stuck in this greed swamp that craps all over the interest and ambition of people like Mr. Paulson.
What do you guys think the chances of contacting the IP owners in Japan and convincing them to take the legal fight back up on this side of the pond are now that they have secured the rights fully over there?
How has selling a KS pledge been accomplished in the past so it's safe for both parties involved? I'm considering selling mine in RRT (Battle Cry + Monster kit + Ghost Drone kit).
Is it as simple as selling, working out payment, and then changing the shipping info on the pledge manager?
Not to mention that it's not uncommon for high demand KS boxes to go for 2-3 times their original price. Which isn't to say that the same will happen here with certainty, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't sell that $200 pack for at least a minor markup, given that it represents like $600+ MSRP in figures (and that's with a generously low valuing on the Limited Edition stuff and the things that aren't in Wave One).
Thanks for the info / insight. Since it's already paid for it might be best to sit and wait (and hope) for the goods to come in and then decide on whether to keep it or sell it.
Swabby wrote: I'm starting to think my earliest concerns were actually valid and not the crazy hyperbole even I thought they might be after taking a step back.
Man, I really want this damn game. I just hate that my favorite childhood IP is stuck in this greed swamp that craps all over the interest and ambition of people like Mr. Paulson.
What do you guys think the chances of contacting the IP owners in Japan and convincing them to take the legal fight back up on this side of the pond are now that they have secured the rights fully over there?
They don't care. Japan has two ideas when it comes to anime in the US and both are pretty unrealistic.
1) It'll be just as successful in America as it was in Japan.
2) US market is small pennies
They probably go more towards 2. Anime companies here cannot afford to bring over Macross 7 so why would they bother with America?
Swabby wrote: I'm starting to think my earliest concerns were actually valid and not the crazy hyperbole even I thought they might be after taking a step back.
Man, I really want this damn game. I just hate that my favorite childhood IP is stuck in this greed swamp that craps all over the interest and ambition of people like Mr. Paulson.
What do you guys think the chances of contacting the IP owners in Japan and convincing them to take the legal fight back up on this side of the pond are now that they have secured the rights fully over there?
They know that both the US and Robotech exist but have chosen to do nothing in the years since they won their Japanese lawsuit. Perhaps they have some inside info about how much Robotech makes HG and have determined that it isn't worth the lawyer fees.
Kendachi wrote: Love the new avatar, warboss. I know the feeling.
Thanks! I made it last night. I'm sure some of the KS comments white knights would suggest its appropriate as they feel keeping palladium to their own promises makes you a spoiled brat like Jason...but in that comparison Palladium becomes Minmei, a capricious and annoying borderline incestuous tart who doesn't know she has a good thing going. It's a double edged sword!
This is an update today from a different kickstarter I backed for gaming mats, but I feel it's relevant to the Robotech one
The Chinese New Year, which starts on January 31st this year has actually started early at the factory making our gaming mats. Several employees left starting around January 14th with the rest departing this Wednesday. This is actually not uncommon for the smaller factories to allow employees to take a very extended CNY break. For the smaller factories, many of their employees come from the far corners of China and getting back home for this #1 annual family holiday is expected. As such, we weren't surprised by the early shut-down. However, due to the color matching efforts we have been working with the factory on (we had to get these right...no funny colors) and a few other production details, our 2nd production run is now only about 50% complete. So, we won't be able to ship ahead of the holiday. What we now expect is that the 2nd production run will be completed together with the 3rd production run by the beginning of March. So, 'Barren Wasteland', 'Space', 'Urban Combat 2', & all the 4x4' gaming mats will simply be delayed. We apologize for this. This means that some of our March commitments will now reach you in April. At this moment, nothing can be done. We appreciate your patience. On a positive note, the first shipment should arrive this week. Our plan is to send out all the 6x4' 'Grassy Plains', 'Alpine', 'Urban Combat', & 'Blast Zone' gaming mats by the end of the month; BEATING our commitments for those designs.
What are the odds the Robotech factory has already closed for CNY? Even if it hasn't, there's not the remotest chance they can get production done before the 31st.
I would be shocked if they have any of the molds finished, let alone ready to start production. The idea that they can finish production before the factory starts their new year break is bordering on the insane.
Their update from a while back said that they hoped to get test runs done before CNY, and even the production run. Obviously the latter would require an absolute miracle.
I've mentioned in the update comments (which Palladium actually posts in from time to time, as opposed to the general comments for the KS) that Q2 seems like it'll be a reach, and that we'll be lucky to see things by mid Q3 (in time for Gencon).
Wayne (a PB employee) popped in to say that they did indeed plan to sell RRT products (not just Limited Edition stuff at that) at Gencon, and that backers would have their stuff before then.
I think I hit a nerve.
Well, if we're to take them at their word (*winky*), then they have roughly 150 days until the first day of summer. With further recognition that the next 30-50 are likely a wash on production.
Just based on other Kickstarters, and their mold cutting to production to product in hand times, I would say June is a stretch right now. Which makes me sad, as I am in Afghanistan til late summer, so this being late doesn't bother me as much.
But all of this has bred an intense dislike for SPM and their BS rename to ND, when they suck pretty much overall. As Relic Knights will be a year late, there isn't much hope for this one in Q2 of this year. It's also funny that so much of the hate is directed towards PB, when the BS problems and outright lies from this KS and the Mega-Man KS both lie with ND/SPM. I wish I could fedex them a steaming pile of poo to really show them how awesome they are...
Oh, at this rate I'm sure there's plenty of blame to go around between the two of them.
And unfortunately, based on PB's reputation, it's all but impossible to be certain where that line can be drawn.
I totally agree that between RK, MM and this, that SPM and those associated with it are building a well deserved reputation for delays, but at least they were talkative and timely with info when they had the reins. PB took over and we had weeks go by without a peep.
If ND is truly to blame for it all, then they've managed to do something impressive; they conned a con. (in a figurative sense)
Forar wrote: Oh, at this rate I'm sure there's plenty of blame to go around between the two of them.
And unfortunately, based on PB's reputation, it's all but impossible to be certain where that line can be drawn.
I totally agree that between RK, MM and this, that SPM and those associated with it are building a well deserved reputation for delays, but at least they were talkative and timely with info when they had the reins. PB took over and we had weeks go by without a peep.
If ND is truly to blame for it all, then they've managed to do something impressive; they conned a con. (in a figurative sense)
Actually, reading the RK thread, they pretty much lied up to the "game in backer's hands" point, and then said "well, the molds haven't been cut, nothing has been printed, you're going to have to wait...".
Then, I heard that a lot of the sculpts don't look like the artwork that people pledged for. So I think that SPM is shaping up to be a bunch of charlatans, as they are the common factor in all of the KS's. Sculpts 98% complete? Yeah right. Not if you're digitally printing them for the FIRST TIME well after I was supposed to have your game in hand. Without CMON to put leverage on that weak group of individuals, and the fact that they have taken on another project when none of their previous projects are complete, I see RRT slipping to Q1 15....
KS really needs a rating system for KS Creators, so that potential backers could see that SPM/ND has a NEGATIVE score, and would steer away from whatever they are trying to peddle.
Salacious Greed wrote: Actually, reading the RK thread, they pretty much lied up to the "game in backer's hands" point, and then said "well, the molds haven't been cut, nothing has been printed, you're going to have to wait...".
Then, I heard that a lot of the sculpts don't look like the artwork that people pledged for. So I think that SPM is shaping up to be a bunch of charlatans, as they are the common factor in all of the KS's. Sculpts 98% complete? Yeah right. Not if you're digitally printing them for the FIRST TIME well after I was supposed to have your game in hand. Without CMON to put leverage on that weak group of individuals, and the fact that they have taken on another project when none of their previous projects are complete, I see RRT slipping to Q1 15....
KS really needs a rating system for KS Creators, so that potential backers could see that SPM/ND has a NEGATIVE score, and would steer away from whatever they are trying to peddle.
Unfortunately, Palladium has been pulling the same schtick for decades including recently with their private RPG book crowdfunding. The first NGR book was in the "final stages" of development only few weeks away from going to the printer... but took over a year to get out. The second book funded a month or two later (and due out similarly) still isn't out and is over a year late fast approaching a year and a half. The funny thing is that the RPG books are the company's bread and butter for 30 years so you'd think that Palladium would have a somewhat accurate (<1 year!) timeframe for when they should come out. When you've got a company that bad supposedly managing a second company that has its own serious and recent issues regarding project delivery, pinning the blame on any one person or company without first hand knowledge is just guessing.
Forar wrote: Oh, at this rate I'm sure there's plenty of blame to go around between the two of them.
And unfortunately, based on PB's reputation, it's all but impossible to be certain where that line can be drawn.
I totally agree that between RK, MM and this, that SPM and those associated with it are building a well deserved reputation for delays, but at least they were talkative and timely with info when they had the reins. PB took over and we had weeks go by without a peep.
If ND is truly to blame for it all, then they've managed to do something impressive; they conned a con. (in a figurative sense)
Actually, reading the RK thread, they pretty much lied up to the "game in backer's hands" point, and then said "well, the molds haven't been cut, nothing has been printed, you're going to have to wait...".
Then, I heard that a lot of the sculpts don't look like the artwork that people pledged for. So I think that SPM is shaping up to be a bunch of charlatans, as they are the common factor in all of the KS's. Sculpts 98% complete? Yeah right. Not if you're digitally printing them for the FIRST TIME well after I was supposed to have your game in hand. Without CMON to put leverage on that weak group of individuals, and the fact that they have taken on another project when none of their previous projects are complete, I see RRT slipping to Q1 15....
KS really needs a rating system for KS Creators, so that potential backers could see that SPM/ND has a NEGATIVE score, and would steer away from whatever they are trying to peddle.
CMON has been in charge of all RK manufacturing, and until recently all communication on that Kickstarter. While SPM did miss an important design deadline a year ago, they are probably not responsible for all of the delays. CMON is the one that interacts directly with the factory. The mentioned poor sculpts was also on CMON for showing pre-production models without checking with SPM first.
The interactions between publisher/design studio are too murky for us to assign blame as casual observers. Especially when all parties don't have spotless histories. I've heard of numerous issues with the CMON ran Sedition Wars KS too. And Palladium is, well, Palladium.
And in the end, we're still talking about overseas manufacturing which is just going to exacerbate any project level problems that already exist.
I agree with both of you. I do not have any first hand knowledge.
However, the common denominator in both RK and RRT is SPM/ND. CMON is not, by any means, a spotless company. However, they have delivered the goods with Zombicide and Rivet Wars so far. I am the un-proud owner of two sets of Sedition Wars. It isn't anywhere near what Mike suggested was going to be made, and after reading the attrocious ruleset, have never taken it out of its box. I didn't partake in the Guilds of Cadwallon KS, and have no insight on it, but Zombicide is a great game, and the 2nd KS went pretty smoothly. Rivet Wars had some things change, but they got the Box Game out on time, and are portraying themselves as on track for on-time fulfillment.
I am not a RK backer, so don't know what CMON is saying or portraying, but CMON has nothing to do with the figure making, mold cutting or digital sculpting. That all resides on SPM/ND, as it does with RRT and most likely with Mega-Man. It also would appear that someone from SPM/ND had something to do with the KS's for both RRT and Mega-Man, as the same Risks were written for each. So I would say that a majority of the failure stems from the poor practices of the Design Studio, as two successive projects are horribly behind schedule, when great things were promised. Do the Publishers have some fault in this? Yes, of course. But it is hard to have the manufacturer make something that hasn't made it's way off the computer yet....
I agree with both of you. I do not have any first hand knowledge.
However, the common denominator in both RK and RRT is SPM/ND. CMON is not, by any means, a spotless company. However, they have delivered the goods with Zombicide and Rivet Wars so far. I am the un-proud owner of two sets of Sedition Wars. It isn't anywhere near what Mike suggested was going to be made, and after reading the attrocious ruleset, have never taken it out of its box. I didn't partake in the Guilds of Cadwallon KS, and have no insight on it, but Zombicide is a great game, and the 2nd KS went pretty smoothly. Rivet Wars had some things change, but they got the Box Game out on time, and are portraying themselves as on track for on-time fulfillment.
I am not a RK backer, so don't know what CMON is saying or portraying, but CMON has nothing to do with the figure making, mold cutting or digital sculpting. That all resides on SPM/ND, as it does with RRT and most likely with Mega-Man. It also would appear that someone from SPM/ND had something to do with the KS's for both RRT and Mega-Man, as the same Risks were written for each. So I would say that a majority of the failure stems from the poor practices of the Design Studio, as two successive projects are horribly behind schedule, when great things were promised. Do the Publishers have some fault in this? Yes, of course. But it is hard to have the manufacturer make something that hasn't made it's way off the computer yet....
Correlation is not necessarily causation. Especially with a sample size of only two. I was also under the impression that master molds where created at the factory. And given that the majority of production masters for RK where done 6 months ago, I can believe that the last few months could have all been factory issues.
The all at once approach that both these KS took is probably the root cause of most of the problems. The ones that have chosen to release in waves seem to be much less susceptible to delays. With all the moving parts I can very much see minor setbacks get extremely amplified. It's why I'm holding off on backing any other miniature game kickstarters for the foreseeable future. Mobile Frame Zero, RK, Ogre, and RTT; I have not had the best of luck so far.
I don't know about you guys, but the delay really doesn't bother me as much as the attitude involved.
It makes me feel like a sucker every time I see PB post something that sounds like a circus announcer trying to explain why the elephant isn't on stage yet.
There are so many things they could be doing right now to actually use this delay to their advantage, like tell us more about the rules or release a pdf of the theoretically finished rulebook to backers with printable cards so we could at least try the game while we wait.
Or talk about these tournament initiatives that they've had dangling in the press release for over half a year.
Or show off some characters, because that's a mechanic we haven't even touched on other than Roy costing a half a squad all by himself and Rick apparently being an afterthought.
Or, as you've noted, show off more of the rules.
Etc, etc, etc.
Oh well, it'll be interesting to see what our version of the "Erm, not great news everybody" update is like.
My bet is a picture of another 3d printed prototype and some excuse about chinese shipping groups going on strike as well as someone at ND having to take the week off because a random angry fan kicked their dog.
I'm thinking that the next update will be just as thin as the other recent ones. After all, Kevin said "The next time we report something, we want it to be solid, so it will probably be a few weeks."
Unless they try to gloss over CNY by saying "OMG! SPRING! You'll be pooping rainbows by June!" or some such. And a shapeways printed looking something. Whee...
I swear to god this isn't my auction and even though I don't know any of you, this is literally the only crowd I know of that might appreciate this. Mods feel free to slap the crap of of me (in an internet fashion) if I am doing a bad thing here.
I just miss talking about robotech/macross with actual gamers.
Never seen it. I do remember my youngest brother getting the atac from SC. I played with that toy more than my brother. It wasn't a valkyrie but it was a giant robot that transformed. Heck if not for those macross designs I would never have bothered with battletech. The only downside to that game is all your mechs have the same boring pose:[/size]
I probably would have never looked at battletech myself if it wasn't for the macross designs.
I am honestly taken aback at how long it has taken for a Robotech mini's game to happen. At the very least, why didn't PB/HG capitalize on the results of the settlement and start cranking out macross minis in 1/285 right afterwards?
You can put Golden Egg Games on the list though. Backing Fallen City of Karez is my biggest KS regret to date.
Oh, and I'm reliably informed never back anything by Gareth-Michael Skarka, he's years behind his one and only solo project, keeps looking for more money and starting work on other joint projects or contracts, abuses people who question where the promised RPG is, starts fights with actual successful companies like Evil Hat, and generally behaves like he's the greatest writer in history and is above listening to any of your peasant gak, he's creating, when it turns out he's just a mediocre content producer who developed a big ego after having one or two small supplements to something published. I don't really RPG though, so really only going by what others say.
Things continue to move forward on this front as the engineering is being fine tuned for final mold-making and mass production. The engineering layout for the Valkyries was reviewed this week and we were very pleased. There were only a few minor details to be addressed but otherwise they looked freakin’ gorgeous. What a relief.
Meanwhile, the intrepid (and somewhat beleaguered) Jeff Burke continues to hammer away at creating images for the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ color guide which we’ll be adding to the back of the rule book. That’s front, side and back views of . . . well, everything Macross mecha.
We are still unable to lock down a likely release date at this time, and may have to wait until after the Chinese New Year (a celebration that lasts a couple of weeks!) before we have something concrete to tell you. You’ll know when we know. Keep the faith. Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is absolutely coming out in 2014, Kickstarter supporters will get product before retail, and this game is going to be epic fun.
So... yeah.
Apparently when Wayne (from Palladium) said:
Creator Palladium Books on December 13 @Alex, No, I'm Wayne Smith from Palladium. @Forar, We should certainly have a solid date by the end of the year. That's not to say it will come true, but by then we should have some sort of assurance or reasonable schedule of when everything should happen from the manufacturer.
He meant "by the end of Chinese New Year, three months from now".
And (some) people wonder why we have such a hard time taking them at their word.
Oh well, they keep doubling down on the "we'll have RRT stuff for sale at Gencon" statement, we're looking between that and the "spring 2014" tentative date, which ends June 21st, we have a vague timeline in place already.
So 150-200 days to go, were they to hold up to either statement.
To be fair, I'm sure there are plenty of readers/fans/backers who have no idea what Chinese New Year is, or why it has any relevance to the delivery of RRT.
It still ticks me off. It's not like we haven't been talking about it in the comments for months - prepping for that statement that he's only alluding to at this time!
Oh, I agree. I remember people talking about it in the comments back during the campaign, a solid 9 months ago. And they even built themselves a little foreshadowing a few updates ago by referencing it.
It's certainly not a 'get out of ire free card'. More like "welcome to the program, we've been talking about this for nearly a year, y'know maybe if you listened to some of your backers who seem to have more experience than the people you're working with, some of these issues might've been avoided."
While I can't speak directly for him, he has said in the past as long he can do battle reports as long as he doesn't divulge specifics about the rules. Basically, he can say that a valkyrie blasted a battlepod but not that it needed a 6 to hit with a +1 for flanking or somesuch.
I have to say I'm sinking back into apathy with this project kind of like post gencon last year. I stopped following the comments and press releases and didn't log into either Palladium's or Kickstarter's sites for weeks at a time.. and I'm getting the feeling that would be best again. Somewhat depressingly, we're at the same point we were post gencon last summer in that we're still 3-4 months away from delivery of the product assuming that there are no "unforseen" delays (and that is in quotes as Palladium seems to have blinders on regarding the reality of this product and their RPG products as they're oblivious to at best or flat out lying at worst).
I know it's petty but at this point if they can't deliver by around May then I actually hope they miss Gencon as well as a sort of punishment and miss out on all those 100% keep the MSRP sales and are forced instead to support the other tiers of the distribution system.
warboss wrote: Somewhat depressingly, we're at the same point we were post gencon last summer in that we're still 3-4 months away from delivery of the product assuming that there are no "unforseen" delays (and that is in quotes as Palladium seems to have blinders on regarding the reality of this product and their RPG products as they're oblivious to at best or flat out lying at worst).
I know it's petty but at this point if they can't deliver by around May then I actually hope they miss Gencon as well as a sort of punishment and miss out on all those 100% keep the MSRP sales and are forced instead to support the other tiers of the distribution system.
I hear that.
I fully expect the obvious "so, about that Chinese New Year thing..." update today or next week at the latest, something to basically placate/redirect people for February. Given that they said they should have a solid idea of the timeline "by the end of the year" over six weeks ago, if they can't at least cough up a month of release by early March there'll be even bigger signs of trouble. Their site says it should be available in "spring", which ends in around 150 days. Losing February means they'll have 4 months to do the test run, production run, whatever other work is necessary, and get that stuff across an ocean.
Sounding familiarly optimistic yet? :-D
But hey, they got a bit touchy when I questioned them making Gencon, so obviously that fire has been lit. Much like our posts from half a year ago, they're getting close enough to the point of no return that either they start tossing us good news and seeking shipping verification, or they begin explaining what new snags are holding things up so we can yet again revise our expectations.
I'm already revising mine to August as the optimistic ones. Once again, the game is to see how long it takes them to break free of that late June target, with recognition that there's a low (but non-zero) chance they might actually provide solid info all around in early March once things presumably fire back up with the factory they're working with.
NTRabbit wrote: Oh, and I'm reliably informed never back anything by Gareth-Michael Skarka, he's years behind his one and only solo project, keeps looking for more money and starting work on other joint projects or contracts, abuses people who question where the promised RPG is, starts fights with actual successful companies like Evil Hat, and generally behaves like he's the greatest writer in history and is above listening to any of your peasant gak, he's creating, when it turns out he's just a mediocre content producer who developed a big ego after having one or two small supplements to something published. I don't really RPG though, so really only going by what others say.
There's a few websites that kinda-sorta do this kind of analysis, but I've found it interesting when Kickstarter creators discuss how it goes when a 'simple' project turns into something more complex.
I do wonder if Kickstarter is going to be discussed as a weird mental issue in the human brain at some point. Something like the same way studies have shown '.99' to somehow read significantly different from '1.00' people seem to want to grab for the big bundles instead of the less risky smaller investments.
warboss wrote: While I can't speak directly for him, he has said in the past as long he can do battle reports as long as he doesn't divulge specifics about the rules. Basically, he can say that a valkyrie blasted a battlepod but not that it needed a 6 to hit with a +1 for flanking or somesuch.
I have to say I'm sinking back into apathy with this project kind of like post gencon last year. I stopped following the comments and press releases and didn't log into either Palladium's or Kickstarter's sites for weeks at a time.. and I'm getting the feeling that would be best again. Somewhat depressingly, we're at the same point we were post gencon last summer in that we're still 3-4 months away from delivery of the product assuming that there are no "unforseen" delays (and that is in quotes as Palladium seems to have blinders on regarding the reality of this product and their RPG products as they're oblivious to at best or flat out lying at worst).
I know it's petty but at this point if they can't deliver by around May then I actually hope they miss Gencon as well as a sort of punishment and miss out on all those 100% keep the MSRP sales and are forced instead to support the other tiers of the distribution system.
Hey all,
My daughter's B-Day is this weekend so the battle report will wait till next weekend or the weekend after. The NDA states that I cannot show pictures of the rules or the few stat cards that I do have. It does give me quite a bit of leeway so I'm leery about how much I share. I've asked for some clarification out of respect because I don't want to break the trust I've been given. I don't think it appropriate to share my updated stat cards on units not yet shard publicly since I would take away their thunder if they decide to share more stat cards for units that we have not seen yet. That being said I think it would be fine if I share a report where let's say a unit fire X missiles at another and he is hit by three missiles for X damage and rolls against one missile and that leaves him with 3 points left. I hope to share as much as possible because like you I'm a fan and am happy with the trust I've been given. That does not mean I'll blow smoke up your rears on what I think of the rules. They are very close to what I published with my interpretation. Honestly I do think most of you will be happy. Some like highly detailed units and will want a game that plays more like Battletech. Others will want a game more like 40K. It's closer to 40k but fast playing and does reflect the cartoon well. Like I said if you look at my rules on the facebook page you will not be too far off when the real thing comes out. I hope to have some real good pics up and maybe even some video. I just bought a Mac II that's a little big scale wide but if you check the facebook page you will see a few pics of it. I still have to add the decals.
If you have any questions feel free to ask!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Part of the reason I think they sent me the NDA was to help keep people spirits up on this. Sounds like things are going well if they have all the Veritech engineering layouts ready to go. I still think we will have everything in time so that they can bring things to market for GenCon. That means likely June/July at latest. So it they have the molds and all done and approved by end of Feb. They can start producing, Production finishes late April? Not sure how long it will take honestly, then 6 weeks to ship to US via boat and pass through customs brings us to Mid-June, Shipping starts Early July? I'm just going off of what others have mentioned and creating my own timeline here so correct me if something there is way off. We get our stuff mid-July and still have a month before GenCon.....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Course I put 2 months for production, Hoe long do you think it should take?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And as I write the new update appears.
Mike1975 wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Part of the reason I think they sent me the NDA was to help keep people spirits up on this. Sounds like things are going well if they have all the Veritech engineering layouts ready to go. I still think we will have everything in time so that they can bring things to market for GenCon. That means likely June/July at latest. So it they have the molds and all done and approved by end of Feb. They can start producing, Production finishes late April? Not sure how long it will take honestly, then 6 weeks to ship to US via boat and pass through customs brings us to Mid-June, Shipping starts Early July? I'm just going off of what others have mentioned and creating my own timeline here so correct me if something there is way off. We get our stuff mid-July and still have a month before GenCon.....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Course I put 2 months for production, Hoe long do you think it should take?
I would love to get that stuff in July. First problem in your theory is that while they now have 5 more weeks to tweek and complete all of the digital designs, zero (read NONE) of the molds have been cut. With the amount of plastic sprues to make what, 15 completely different models, you're talking a couple months to get all of them cut, tweeked and mastered. Then you're talking the actual production run, and I hope they have already worked out all the packaging. That would mean they're only waiting on the production run. But they usually finish the packaging after they do the test runs of the plastics.
I'm disappointed after the last update. They said in the KS that they were 98% done with the original models, but here we're just now seeing the first printing of the basic battlepod (which they said needed minor tweeks still), and they're just seeing the Veritechs (presumably for the first time)?? Guess we'll see a printing of those soon, but I'd prefer some actual Integrity, an open and honest post about exactly where ND is on all of this. Palladium should be polishing the game mechanics and the book and cards at this point, as they now have an extra 6 months. They should be looking to the next set of rules, how they plan to expand them, make the game deeper, how to make a campaign where pilots on both sides progress and take on meaning. Perhaps look for a design studio that can deliver on what they promise...
I would love to get that stuff in July. First problem in your theory is that while they now have 5 more weeks to tweek and complete all of the digital designs, zero (read NONE) of the molds have been cut. With the amount of plastic sprues to make what, 15 completely different models, you're talking a couple months to get all of them cut, tweeked and mastered. Then you're talking the actual production run, and I hope they have already worked out all the packaging. That would mean they're only waiting on the production run. But they usually finish the packaging after they do the test runs of the plastics.
I'm disappointed after the last update. They said in the KS that they were 98% done with the original models, but here we're just now seeing the first printing of the basic battlepod (which they said needed minor tweeks still), and they're just seeing the Veritechs (presumably for the first time)?? Guess we'll see a printing of those soon, but I'd prefer some actual Integrity, an open and honest post about exactly where ND is on all of this. Palladium should be polishing the game mechanics and the book and cards at this point, as they now have an extra 6 months. They should be looking to the next set of rules, how they plan to expand them, make the game deeper, how to make a campaign where pilots on both sides progress and take on meaning. Perhaps look for a design studio that can deliver on what they promise...
This. This x 1,000,000. I don't know how accurate your times estimates are, but I can't imagine making the molds is a quick and easy process. How long is it going to take to produce more than 600,000 miniatures and then package, ship, etc... I have no hope for 2014.
Once the moulds are cut (which is a long process, and will also involve a bunch of back and forth approving the test casts and potentially further refining the moulds)
production will be surprisingly quick, probably no more than a minute or two per 'shot' of plastic
so using multiple machines (each making a different mini/sprue) a factory can rapidly burn through the actual production
the potential hold up will be a production slot (I'm sure you have to put some non-refundable money down to get one),
none of these factory's sit around doing nothing they're always busy and despite what we might think producing something for a wargaming company is probably lower priority than making something destined for gumball machines
This. This x 1,000,000. I don't know how accurate your times estimates are, but I can't imagine making the molds is a quick and easy process. How long is it going to take to produce more than 600,000 miniatures and then package, ship, etc... I have no hope for 2014.
Oh, and Bob - Stop it, yer killing me!
As Orlando said, cutting the molds takes a while. From the RK thread, SPM said that their original estimate was 6 weeks for the base RK game. But the KS extended that to 3 1/2 months. I'm hoping that RRT needs less molds, though I don't see that as being true. So, with the CNY being done the end of February, the molds won't likely be finished before the 1st of May, if not June. Add in a month to sail to their destinations, once they're packed. Let's hope that ND has their together 1 March, and they can get a production slot. Let's all cross our fingers that ND doesn't suck as much as they seem to with RK....
Neither Palladium nor Ninja Division has a clue what they're doing. Even if you apply the infamous "98% done" statement only to the base game and nothing else (and if you think that's all they had planned, you're fooling yourself), it's a complete lie. They are still in the last few weeks working out 10 months later the valkyrie and battlepod model details and tweaking the rules; that pretty much makes up most of the core boxed set and blows the pre and during KS statements about their preparedness out of the water even with the much lower standard of just the core set. Just like with the Northern Gun "we're almost done" statements, there is no truth to it. That's why I feel they should post a line by line table showing EACH item and it's current state. That's the only way Palladium (and their vassals Ninja Division) can restore any faith (beyond that of mindless drones in the comments and on their forums of course) in their ability to provide any realistic estimates on the project.
I often wonder why they did not use those old minis.....I mean some molds may have been trashed but you think they could use that to help them get a jumpstart since not all the molds would have been destroyed.
I often wonder why they did not use those old minis.....I mean some molds may have been trashed but you think they could use that to help them get a jumpstart since not all the molds would have been destroyed.
Because they didn't own them, or have any rights to them?
And its fairly likely the molds were destroyed when the license agreement ended.
I often wonder why they did not use those old minis.....I mean some molds may have been trashed but you think they could use that to help them get a jumpstart since not all the molds would have been destroyed.
I'm glad they didn't. The vf-1s in B mode looks atrocious. The head looks nothing like the one in the show. In fact most of them look like a poor mans version of the minis you received. The destroids came out looking ok but for my money I'm glad the sculpts were done from the ground up. When you start painting Max you'll notice the differences. The mini you have looks like it leapt from your tv screen onto your desk. The old minis were sculpted by hand. The ND minis were digitaly sculpted enabling them to make more accurate miniatures. I just hope ND can maintain the level of quality with the other 2 modes. I don't think the ND models have the slight flat area at the front of the nose or the fins below the canopy.
Does anyone have a link to where palladium initially promised that backers would get their minis first? The more recent "promises" state that we'll get the minis before distributors but I recall a different wording earlier in the campaign (possibly during the actual kickstarter). I'm just preparing for the likelihood of them fast shipping boxes to sell at gencon to non-backers while backers wait for their year earlier prepaid items to come over on the slow boat.
There is this from Update 125:
Being a Kickstarter backer. Your Kickstarter pledge goes toward funding a special project, to make that goal a reality. The product you are to receive as a Kickstarter backer is your rewardfor that pledge. Palladium Books is working diligently to finish the project you have so graciously helped to fund. And you WILL get the rewards promised. Believe that, because it is absolutely true.
Yes, there are delays. No, we cannot give you an exact release date yet – at this time – but we will as soon as we can make that happen.
In the end, you, our Kickstarter supporters, will be the first to receive a wonderful product that we hope will make you grin and provide endless hours of enjoyment. Thank you for sharing our dream. You, your pledges of support and unbridled enthusiasm are very much appreciated
I think it's inconceivable that if they have the game finished and ready to sell it won't show up at Gencon, pretty much all KS projects that attend with the ability to sell do so irrespective of the state of the KS shipments (it's just too hard to turn down the advertising potential with all the shows/blogs/podcasts/forum members attending all wanting to buy and then review the next big thing)
although the classy operators (hello Impact Miniatures Chibi Dungeon Adventurers) ask their KS backers permission (and get it because we want the company to prosper and it's not as if relatively few sales will actually ruin our lives)
Unless they start shipping boxes in June, I can't see how it won't happen to some degree.
If ALL of the boxes have shipped by mid August, I can imagine some ruffled feathers, but doubt it'd be a huge deal. As long as it's in the hands of the postal service, they have some measure of plausible deniability/a manner of assuaging at least some hard feelings that may be expressed.
If they come out with an update to the tune of "hey all! Exciting news! We're all going to be super busy at Gencon for, well, August, and once it's over and we're home and have gotten over the inevitable con-crud, we'll start shipping boxes out to the backers, which totally are not sitting in pallets in the warehouse right now, yearning to be set free and launched into the hands of the postal service!", there'll be rioting.
Even among their diehard fans, I imagine it'd be a hard sell.
I don't know about the die hards rioting. Some of the stuff I've seen today was pretty weak. Like the explanation of the 98%. I've mellowed out since the PB started "jazz handing" us, but that was bull. Still the defenders have there right to their opinions too. It's funny how the "cabal" and the "defender" bs has made its way to the ks comms section. What's funny is how the mod for the PB forums tried to put BS down earler.
If one were charitable (I know we're not, but let's say someone is, maybe, somewhere), I could see shipping to backers in July, raking in stacks of cash at GC with the "3-4 months before retail" wave 1 stuff they have on hand and whatever exclusives they decide to make, and go from there. Intentionally do a production run for the backers and GC, ship it, and then spend the intervening months pumping out enough to distribute to global retail by the end of the year.
Makes sense. Trying to do Backer boxes and global retail at the same time would probably have us all waiting until November.
Of course, again, I'm trying to make sense of madness.
Edit: that said, my "late June" countdown of 150 days feels ambitious.
May would probably require a miracle. 120'ish days, 90'ish after you lop off February? Yeah, that's some publicity BS.
If anything, that's Harmony Gold looking around, seeing a bus, seeing Paladium Books standing off to the side, and going, "Yeah, realistically, you're going to get those at the end of the year." Maybe the Kickstarter people get them a few months before that, and the retail stuff comes out at the end of the year, but at worst for Harmony Gold if they say "December" and things come out early, more people are happy.
Well, we've got PB, ND and HG all agreeing that they're going to wrap up whatever enormous pile of work that is left and ship product out in 5 months.
And 1 of those months is a black hole for production schedules.
I highly doubt this was said lightly. One could just as easily read between the lines to see HG very publicly saying "Hey, you donkey caves have had this baking for 15 months now, guess who is going to deliver *something* in 5?"
Obviously they're not so terribly put off by this project's development or that of the RPG line that they're not renewing the license, but they're putting down harder dates than PB has been willing to. At best we've been getting quarters, a 60 day target is definitely starting to narrow that down.
Depending on how some of those 'behind the scenes conversations' we hear mentioned now and then have been going, it could be a glowing statement of support, or a 'shots fired! We've got to get some gak done, yesterday!' moment.
Guess we'll find out in the next few months which one it was.
Or what the exciting new excuse is for making that December notation more pertinent than the Spring one.
But I'm sure it'll be something that everyone at the office will love! >.>
Edit: oh, I see you're fixating on the December mention. I think the "figures available May/June" line far more interesting, and not just because I'd be unhappy to see another 11 months tacked onto this fething project. :-D
I'm not sure where they're getting the December report. Granted I wasn't there at the con that the link suggests but I did watch the youtube video and only heard the May/June estimate. It's possible that the Dec date was mentioned during a part that was edited out (the video does skip a bit) or is just a typo.
I cannot imagine the uproar that is going to take place when they show up at Gencon with box sets and 'convention exclusives' for sale before they ship anything to the backers...
Oh, there'll be an uproar from annoyed paying customers.
And just as surely there'll be vocal fanboys shouting at how entitled and whiny we are to expect anything, it's been a wait of decades for these, how dare we question the glory of Palladium, for they are the light, they know all that there must be known, and for our own good they will deliver on their often broken promises in their own time!
It'll be fun times.
Edit: it's also possible that they're beginning to narrow things down (from a Quarter to a 2 month time frame, possibly further) because Distributors need to know what's coming up, take orders from interested shops, and set up delivery schedules. Despite Palladium's reluctance to commit to anything, they have to say something eventually, and with thousands upon thousands of stores getting queried, the news gets out eventually.
Plus the minor debacle where they admitted to wasting thousands of dollars on advertising for the 'fall release' that wasn't to be. They obviously don't want to repeat that, but advertising does need to start ramping up in the coming months if retailers are going to start carrying product in the near future, though that can wait until a quarter before the target, perhaps?
Basically, like it or not, if they plan to go to retail in the spring/summer, they'll need to start those lines of communication, and even if they just plan to go to Gencon for the beginning of the wider release, that too needs to get out there. I'm sure whether or not they'll have a couple crates of RRT stuff with them will influence things about how they set up, what space they need, etc.
Alpharius wrote: I cannot imagine the uproar that is going to take place when they show up at Gencon with box sets and 'convention exclusives' for sale before they ship anything to the backers...
Community support, keeping promises, consistent business practices, player uproar... these things matter not to Palladium. As long as they have their core faithful ready to donate money (not buy but purely donate), they'll keep shambling along especially now that Robotech has turned them into a 28 days fast zombie. They didn't care about the uproar over backers being excluded from figures just days after collecting their $1.4 million... they didn't care about the superfans who crowdfunded their Northern Gun books seeing multiple books come out while the one that they paid for that was supposedly a few weeks away from completion languish for over 50 weeks. If you criticize them, you're just lumped into an imaginary 1% who don't matter.
Alpharius wrote: I cannot imagine the uproar that is going to take place when they show up at Gencon with box sets and 'convention exclusives' for sale before they ship anything to the backers...
I agree, though I believe they are going to pull a quickie on us, and believe that it will satisfy the masses.
I believe that they will cut the box set sprue molds first, and do production runs of those, and get the core boxed game without extras into our hands by Gencon, then sell the game and other plastics that they fly in at Gencon, and call it good.
"We delivered to our Backers first, just like we said we would! What?? So we sold some Monsters and other cool things you were supposed to get, but they're coming, you're going to get yours!"
I realy hope this isn't the way it goes, but I estimate a 0% chance of them shipping EVERYTHING by Gencon. And, as neither of these companies seem to have a stand-up reputation, I think they'll bone us to make a fast buck...
Alpharius wrote: I cannot imagine the uproar that is going to take place when they show up at Gencon with box sets and 'convention exclusives' for sale before they ship anything to the backers...
I agree, though I believe they are going to pull a quickie on us, and believe that it will satisfy the masses.
I believe that they will cut the box set sprue molds first, and do production runs of those, and get the core boxed game without extras into our hands by Gencon, then sell the game and other plastics that they fly in at Gencon, and call it good.
"We delivered to our Backers first, just like we said we would! What?? So we sold some Monsters and other cool things you were supposed to get, but they're coming, you're going to get yours!"
I realy hope this isn't the way it goes, but I estimate a 0% chance of them shipping EVERYTHING by Gencon. And, as neither of these companies seem to have a stand-up reputation, I think they'll bone us to make a fast buck...
I'll respectfully disagree. I suspect that if it looks like they can't get the stuff into backer hands by August, they'll just fly over a few hundred boxed sets to sell at Gencon directly to consumers so they can keep 100% of the MSRP. They won't care about any fallout from backers. Remember, they basically lose 3 weeks DURING A GOOD YEAR due to gencon (one week there, one week to prepare, one week to recover). What happened with Mantic and to a lesser extent Mutant Chronicles shows that small team take weeks to get out the volume of orders we're talking about. Palladium basically shuts down around gencon and I doubt that they'll leave one or two trusted people back at the HQ to manage getting shipments out to backers when they're supposedly making such a big gencon push this year (double sized booth and they're actually *GASP* running sponsored RPG games with their demo team!). When I last went to gencon (2007ish), you could count the number of palladium games in the prereg book on one hand with enough fingers to still show you pleasure or discontent left over and none were sponsored. If they're making that type of push, they'll want all trusted hands on deck for gencon. Despite having the ability to get out literally thousands of packages during that three weeks with a handful of unskilled workers, I suspect they would just leave it for when they return instead of hiring temp workers to get it done in the meantime.
On a similar note, I wouldn't expect that they'd pay for separate shipping to get over a portion of the KS to backers when they can save some money and just ship it all once with an additional delay. Flying over sets to sell for full price to con goers is another story though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Mike Morpheus: I don't feel like logging back into the KS comments (too tempting to post there if logged in) but to answer your questions there Palladium can and does send Cease and Desist letters to fan sites that convert stuff both OUT of and INTO Palladium games and have done so for decades. It's just easier for them to do it on their own websites as they just delete it themselves. The general sentiment is that they don't have a legal leg to stand on (especially when you're not talking about their own IP being converted) but unless you have hundreds of thousands of dollars to prove it in court the website owners just fold and remove the "offending" material (and I can't blame them). A google search will turn up first hand stories of that and their online policy that I linked for you earlier in this thread is entirely consistent with their legal view (despite no one else in the industry sharing it since the early 1990's with TSR... but that is about the time Palladium is stuck in with their mindset).
June to Backers, August to rake in some full MSRP scratch from attendees, December gives them time to produce and ship wave 1 to distributors, and them in turn to retail.
Optimistic, but far more realistic than what they've been offering up previously.
June to Backers, August to rake in some full MSRP scratch from attendees, December gives them time to produce and ship wave 1 to distributors, and them in turn to retail.
Optimistic, but far more realistic than what they've been offering up previously.
I agree that it is optimistic. Unfortunately, my previous personal experiences with Palladium don't allow me to agree that its more realistic in anything other than a theoretical sense.
Well, at least from a stance that "guys, we're going to make, like, 50 billion dollars this year!" is more realistic than "guys, we're going to make, like, 100 billion dollars this year!"
I'm not going to be buying up that DZC terrain just yet, but hey, as with updates, baby steps...
A few looks at some updated stat cards. Now I've done mine a little different than what is in the rules because I like them this way and it I was being a little lazy and did not want to change a few things from the way I was doing them.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Once the moulds are cut (which is a long process, and will also involve a bunch of back and forth approving the test casts and potentially further refining the moulds)
production will be surprisingly quick, probably no more than a minute or two per 'shot' of plastic
so using multiple machines (each making a different mini/sprue) a factory can rapidly burn through the actual production
the potential hold up will be a production slot (I'm sure you have to put some non-refundable money down to get one),
none of these factory's sit around doing nothing they're always busy and despite what we might think producing something for a wargaming company is probably lower priority than making something destined for gumball machines
per shot times are usually measured in just a few seconds, a minute is obscenely long and I can't imagine any shot that would take that long.
As for multiple machines, it depends on the company in question. The feeling I've got of the industry is most of the smaller shops that miniatures companies are going to (that specialize in highly accurate small parts) don't have all that many machines at all, usually 2-3 tops (and often only 1), soooooo....
Also, what nobody has mentioned is that (unless I'm misunderstanding their process workflow, truthfully I haven't paid that much attention) is that once their 3D models are complete, the moldmakers then have to spend time tweaking them to prep them for production. Just because you have a 3d model doesn't mean you can use it to cut a mold, it has to be broken down into parts, details often need to be altered to make them suitable for a two-part mold process (unless they're going with slide cores), etc.
I often wonder why they did not use those old minis.....I mean some molds may have been trashed but you think they could use that to help them get a jumpstart since not all the molds would have been destroyed.
Because those are metal minis, not plastic. Metal minis don't necessarily translate well (at all) to plastic production without a lot of work.
pretre wrote: Wow. That's a bit more in depth than I anticipated.
if your referring to my post then yes my stat cards are a little more in depth as I like to have everything about a squadron in one spot. The game cards are 2 sided so much of the details will be spread across both sides and some will not even be on the cards at all. I also like to have the ability to use a VF and have a variety of missiles. In game you choose one missile type for all of your wing hardpoints for speed and playability sake. I like to have some choice so that I can mount 2 hardpoints with Long Range Missiles, 2 with Medium Ranged, and the last 2 with either Mini or Short Ranged missiles.
Purchased add ons will also likely be on the back side of the cards.
Mike1975 wrote: if your referring to my post then yes my stat cards are a little more in depth as I like to have everything about a squadron in one spot.
I am. I guess we'll see when the game comes out but the cards look a bit complicated for just a miniature combat game.
With delays and such, maybe I should have just bought more deadzone.
It's a good thing they took that largely negative feedback about the predominance of close combat options that outnumber shooting in a primarily shooting anime to heart.
Mike1975 wrote: I've emailed back and forth about that a few times and so it is something they are aware of.
I know and I don't blame you. They're aware of a bunch of stuff but that doesn't usually seem to change their minds on what they want to do as a company (RPG rules changes, max/miriya gencon minis, close combat options, the community's opinion of their IP policies, their knack for not being able to hit within a calendar year of a release date, etc). In the end, that's they're right and as creatives they have the option to forge their own path regardless of the consequences. I was really impressed that ND was allowed to go with a d6 system as I feared they'd bring over the 1980s d20/percentile mashup from the RPG but the name of the game (literally) made me suspect that we'd still see too many unnecessary carryovers from the RPG. I love Heavy Gear but if you want to see an example of a (failing) game that is holding on to too many RPG sacred cows (when the RPG is pretty much dead itself) you don't have to look any further. I pledged *despite* Palladium's involvement and on the condition that ND would be doing the heavy lifting but that agreement seems to have been altered and I pray Darth Kevin doesn't alter it further. Despite my overall pessimism, I want the game to succeed. Robotech deserves both nice minis and a nice ruleset. Unfortunately, adding in minutiae from the RPG (that doesn't mesh well even there with all the idiosyncrasies inherent to Palladium's frankenstein mess of RPG rules) is the opposite of what you want to do with a large scale battle ruleset but just like with the RPG palladium sees it as a strength.
The only thing you have to track is ammo for missiles and a few other major weapons and then damage. The rest just tells you the weapons and units stats such a speed and piloting skill. Most of those you will quickly memorize. The only other factor you track is command points and since that is all placed in one big pool for each turn that is easy to manage.
You can add some add-on like pay for different missiles or a better pilot and such and those items can add to the complexity but they are optional add ons.
Mike1975 wrote: I've emailed back and forth about that a few times and so it is something they are aware of.
I know and I don't blame you. They're aware of a bunch of stuff but that doesn't usually seem to change their minds on what they want to do as a company (RPG rules changes, max/miriya gencon minis, close combat options, the community's opinion of their IP policies, their knack for not being able to hit within a calendar year of a release date, etc). In the end, that's they're right and as creatives they have the option to forge their own path regardless of the consequences. I was really impressed that ND was allowed to go with a d6 system as I feared they'd bring over the 1980s d20/percentile mashup from the RPG but the name of the game (literally) made me suspect that we'd still see too many unnecessary carryovers from the RPG. I love Heavy Gear but if you want to see an example of a (failing) game that is holding on to too many RPG sacred cows (when the RPG is pretty much dead itself) you don't have to look any further. I pledged *despite* Palladium's involvement and on the condition that ND would be doing the heavy lifting but that agreement seems to have been altered and I pray Darth Kevin doesn't alter it further. Despite my overall pessimism, I want the game to succeed. Robotech deserves both nice minis and a nice ruleset. Unfortunately, adding in minutiae from the RPG (that doesn't mesh well even there with all the idiosyncrasies inherent to Palladium's frankenstein mess of RPG rules) is the opposite of what you want to do with a large scale battle ruleset but just like with the RPG palladium sees it as a strength.
This might surprise some but I do get fast responses back when I send in questions or suggestions. Typically in a day or less and that is me emailing Kevin directly who does have a lot on his plate. Yes, they do want to make this right. Yes, they do take into account what we say. Yes, ultimately this IS their game though and they have to do what they believe is best. I have been told that some things are the way they are because they prefer them that way and think that adding some rules will unneccesarily complicate things. Personally I would like to vary my missile loadouts on each squadron not just by type but be able to choose what is on each wing hardpoint but yes that will make a game take longer and complicate things. That's my personal preference. Others like things simpler and faster. I guess that's me for having played Battltech for so long! So we are being listened to and what we have said does matter. Personally I think that the IP problems are a big reason why in general backers do not have more information at this point but that is pure speculation on my part. I hope that as more stat cards, miniature pics, progress on other items like command point markers and blast markers and such and rules are shared many will be more upbeat about the final results.
That being said if anyone wants to come out to Midland Texas for a game or two just PM me and we'll set up a weekend to kill some time and a few Veritechs!
Mike1975 wrote: I've emailed back and forth about that a few times and so it is something they are aware of.
I know and I don't blame you. They're aware of a bunch of stuff but that doesn't usually seem to change their minds on what they want to do as a company (RPG rules changes, max/miriya gencon minis, close combat options, the community's opinion of their IP policies, their knack for not being able to hit within a calendar year of a release date, etc). In the end, that's they're right and as creatives they have the option to forge their own path regardless of the consequences. I was really impressed that ND was allowed to go with a d6 system as I feared they'd bring over the 1980s d20/percentile mashup from the RPG but the name of the game (literally) made me suspect that we'd still see too many unnecessary carryovers from the RPG. I love Heavy Gear but if you want to see an example of a (failing) game that is holding on to too many RPG sacred cows (when the RPG is pretty much dead itself) you don't have to look any further. I pledged *despite* Palladium's involvement and on the condition that ND would be doing the heavy lifting but that agreement seems to have been altered and I pray Darth Kevin doesn't alter it further. Despite my overall pessimism, I want the game to succeed. Robotech deserves both nice minis and a nice ruleset. Unfortunately, adding in minutiae from the RPG (that doesn't mesh well even there with all the idiosyncrasies inherent to Palladium's frankenstein mess of RPG rules) is the opposite of what you want to do with a large scale battle ruleset but just like with the RPG palladium sees it as a strength.
Personally I think the RPG is a decent system having had the books for years, just badly organized and explained in some of the books. I have not looked through the 2nd edition to compare and see if any of it has changed though since it's been nearly 20 years since I have played an RPG.
vitae_drinker wrote: Wow, that's a busy card. So is this a skirmish game (about right card info density) or a mass battles game (way too much stuff to track)?
From what they've told us, it can be played both ways.
Low points, low model count skirmishes (basically half size squads, so only 2-3 figures each base squad, rather than 4-6) on a smaller area, or an agreed upon points limit with the sky (and free time/space/models permitting) as the limit.
According to Ninja Division, they found that between 2 players who knew what they were doing, a 300 point game generally took about an hour (presumably with a table that's already set up) and 600 points was a more epic scale afternoon long event.
300 points might see the RDF side with 8-16 figures across 2-4 squads, 12-24 or so across those same squads (with recognition that between character upgrades, upgrade upgrades, upgrade card upgrades, and other factors, these numbers can skew high or low).
Assuming that's a 'standard game', in competitive play and for most random 'pick up' games (at stores, short battles at homes, whatever) it seems like a sort of midpoint. Not the 5-10 figures max of Malifaux that I'm accustomed to, nor the 100-500+ that some larger scale wargamers talk about, flooding the table with plastic and pewter.
Mike1975 wrote: This might surprise some but I do get fast responses back when I send in questions or suggestions. Typically in a day or less and that is me emailing Kevin directly who does have a lot on his plate. Yes, they do want to make this right. Yes, they do take into account what we say. Yes, ultimately this IS their game though and they have to do what they believe is best. I have been told that some things are the way they are because they prefer them that way and think that adding some rules will unneccesarily complicate things. Personally I would like to vary my missile loadouts on each squadron not just by type but be able to choose what is on each wing hardpoint but yes that will make a game take longer and complicate things. That's my personal preference. Others like things simpler and faster. I guess that's me for having played Battltech for so long! So we are being listened to and what we have said does matter. Personally I think that the IP problems are a big reason why in general backers do not have more information at this point but that is pure speculation on my part. I hope that as more stat cards, miniature pics, progress on other items like command point markers and blast markers and such and rules are shared many will be more upbeat about the final results.
*snip*
Personally I think the RPG is a decent system having had the books for years, just badly organized and explained in some of the books. I have not looked through the 2nd edition to compare and see if any of it has changed though since it's been nearly 20 years since I have played an RPG.
No, it doesn't surprise me as you have his ear at the moment and have shown dedication to his game (you've gone further with your support post KS than 99% of backers I'd guess). I've seen enough posts over the past two decades from people like Jorel and Akashic on the Palladium forums to know that if you support the company then they will hear you (not listen but hear). It works right up until you disagree with the company line without backing down and then you become persona non grata. The atmosphere from an outsider's perspective looking in at Palladium is like a vicious high school clique like in Mean Girls.
The long ago nostalgic memory of palladium rules is alot more forgiving than a more recent discerning critique. I posted a link earlier in this thread where I tried from a mechanical standpoint to figure out how a character dodges in robotech. If you're a new player without the benefit of 20 years of "palladium style" gaming, the rules are a complete mess if you actually pay attention to the details. The system plays exactly how it has evolved... like a core 1980's rpg pamphlet that has 20 years worth of post it note rules addendums added to it. Sometimes when they switch editions, they lose some important post it notes and only find the old ones and those get carried over as well (like with RUE... rules that were "fixed" with faq/errata and in subsequent printings were copy/pasted over in their UNFIXED form to the "new" edition). Then to complicate things, a previous history of palladium style gaming is occasionally a hindrance as rules are changed from what they were from the past couple of years (auto dodges for instance are slightly in word count but significantly in game effect different with every RPG and hard to find the rules for). It's not just the organization in the ruleset that is badly done but the actual content. The sad thing is that it wouldn't take that much effort to actually clean it up and the FFG40krpgs show that a percentile ruleset can still be both "old school" in feel yet coherent. Why does having a high SAT score in Robotech make you a champion swimmer but being olympic gold medal champion physically fit has no effect? Why does daily yoga make your destroid dodge missiles better? Why does having a black belt in kung fu suddenly make you a better jet pilot but a high pilot skill rating has no effect? Why does no attribute actually improve your chances at noticing things? Why do Macross less advanced mecha almost all (veritech and pretty much every Zentraedi) have an autododge but none of the smaller, more advanced Shadow Chronicles stuff other than a cyclone have it? The only answers to these types of questions are that it was just carried over without much critical thought about whether it should be there and how it interacts with existing rules/books and how it *WILL* interact with proposed future ones. After not playing palladium RPGs for over a decade and instead choosing to play ones designed in the past 20 years from the ground up to "work" together along with more mechanically sound minis games, it's a startling mess. I stopped playing because I found better rules but the sheer scope of the mess wasn't evident till I decided to try and make up a character over christmas. I don't think the influence of the people who continue to peddle that rules system as sound can be positive on a minis ruleset and the close combat and LOS systems are examples that IMO reinforce the opinion. I want Robotech Tactics (I purposely leave out the RPG part) to be the *BEST* minis game it can be and borrowing from the RPG is contrary IMO to that goal. Lifting over stats part and parcel from the RPG that don't make sense isn't going to help.
I played it but very briefly in my late teens and it was fun and we did not focus on minutia much. We played more Battletech by far. I always kept the books though as keepsakes until one day I decided to drop it all and gave everything to my little brother and then a few years later wound up buying most of the books back off of ebay. I still have them in a box in the garage. I think the system could woirk much better, like you say, with some revision and re-oragnization. I guess I just don't have the time to spend effort in RPG's anymore.
If there are any things seen as serious flaws like the HtH thing I hope to showcase them on my demos and maybe they can get changed so please point out any concerns or flaws and I will try to play them out and report on what I think to you and PB.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Concerns
1. Hand to Hand
2. Line of Sight Rules
3. Dodges, Roll, and sheer number of dice rolls needed.
4. ?
Warboss: Jorel has been pretty vocal lately about PB. As for akashic I think he's been banned from the forums.
I get what you mean about the rules. I had many of the RT books years ago myself. I have many of the 40kRPG books and they are very well organized and clearly written. When I made a character for RT it took a very long time because everything is mixed up and I had to keep flipping back and forth and I'm not sure if I gave my guy all his proper bonuses. Your right after not playing RT for 20yrs it was a bit of a shock to see such poorly organized and written books. I wish the inside had color illustrations as well. Learning to play dark heresy was much easier to learn. I haven't gone back to learn all the rules yet. First it's very boring to read and second I'll deal with it when it comes up. Right now I'm just frustrated with it. Time to get back to finishing my Max mini. I'm about 98% done with him. So I'll post pics next year when I'm not in over my head.lol
Cypher-xv wrote: Warboss: Jorel has been pretty vocal lately about PB. As for akashic I think he's been banned from the forums.
Jorel is an odd one. He will give reasoned critique, mock those who are being obnoxious or fanboy'ing their hearts out, but then one page or thread later he'll be talking about his 3-20+ copies of a single book, or how excited he is to buy multiple copies of a limited edition Hardcover that's coming out. He'll express his concerns or discontent, but if they ask him for cash he'll ask them to whom the cheque should be made out to. (who am I kidding, I'm sure he's got the appropriate address memorized)
He's certainly free to buy whatever he likes, but it rather undercuts how strongly he must feel about the slights, faults and flaws he perceives and feels in regards to PB.
Expressions of displeasure are generally unheard over the sound of the cash register ringing in yet another order.
Expressions of displeasure are generally unheard over the sound of the cash register ringing in yet another order.
While I agree with the above and that he is a bit of an odd bird in that regard, I actually mentioned him as a counterpoint to the other purely white knight poster. Jorel dared to criticize the infamous (at least in the circle of people who check Palladium's forums) poll that said only 1% off people "surveyed" were unhappy with the status quo and wanted a change. He went from the guy being heard (like Mike is currently) who buys multiples of the same book and has each autographed during official open house events and who organizes unofficial ones to being singled out for derision by Kevin S in a weekly murmur for daring not to tow the party line. Like I said, Palladium inner circle access is a dangerous and fickle thing. He seems to be back in good graces though after buying a half dozen NG books though.
Expressions of displeasure are generally unheard over the sound of the cash register ringing in yet another order.
While I agree with the above and that he is a bit of an odd bird in that regard, I actually mentioned him as a counterpoint to the other purely white knight poster. Jorel dared to criticize the infamous (at least in the circle of people who check Palladium's forums) poll that said only 1% off people "surveyed" were unhappy with the status quo and wanted a change. He went from the guy being heard (like Mike is currently) who buys multiples of the same book and has each autographed during official open house events and who organizes unofficial ones to being singled out for derision by Kevin S in a weekly murmur for daring not to tow the party line. Like I said, Palladium inner circle access is a dangerous and fickle thing. He seems to be back in good graces though after buying a half dozen NG books though.
I have spoken of things I did not like and have tread carefully with what I say because I have disagreed with KS on a couple things. Honestly when I got the new RPG books I looked at the pretty pictures, used the stats for the stat cards and have not opened the books since. My love for RPG games died over 20 years ago, my love for Robotech did not. So I tread softly and try to make what changes I can and feel are appropriate and in the same turn I share with you all what I can when I can. I walk the line and try to be fair to both sides. If that makes me appear as a fanboy to some then so be it. I'm happy just to have the chance to try to keep this ship on the course I feel is better than where it would go without me. I try not to be specific on anything that I feel is wrong to avoid even the appearance of violating the NDA since it allows me to be a vocal ally to PB that vocal part has limits and I push will push them as much as I feel prudent.
As I've said repeatedly; if it helps make the game better, good.
But I can't help read the repeated comments on "treading lightly" without thinking of unhealthy relationships.
It's good that you're giving feedback and it's being heard.
It's unfortunate that you have to apparently at least keep up the illusion of 'being on their side' for that voice to matter.
As long as you're not being a raging donkey cave about it, a good idea should stand on its merits alone, not because you fluffed it up with some flowers and praise.
Well, if I disagree with something, and honestly there is only minor things that I think should be changed, and I tell you all. Then I have broken confidence with them and fed the bottom feeders who will raise bloody hell and point fingers and say "You see! I knew it!". I do think it is very well done and I agree with 95%, not 98% of what is written and am working on the small changes and typos that I've see to have them remedied. I also have no idea how old of a variation of the rules I have are compared to what they have in their hands. What I have could be a few months old and some of the things changed. So what I mean by treading lightly has nothing to do with PB and their work ethics but more with me making sure that my exuberance to share does not cause me to share more than I should or break any confidences.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm trying to be fair and respectful for both sides and totally up front with it all.
Mike, no pressure (I made it so I'm biased) but I'm a bit surprised that you have the generic post track/rank system and not the Macross one. Is that a conscious choice? If not and you didnt know about it, you can choose a specific track with themed titles under "edit your profile" if you click on your name link.
well, I've emailed PB to see how much I can share about the stats as I play. How far I can go and what they consider is fair play since this is not specified in the NDA. I'd love to share all the stats but that would take away any thunder on any stat cards that they would like to share down the line. I will share as much as I can when I play a game. I think I will post some of MY stat cards for the Battlepods and Glaug later tonight since those have been played in Demos and the stats are pretty much known.
I will go over initiative, LOS, and some other things as I play to explain how the rules work and to share how quick and easy it really is to play.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So as an example if I say that I only have a few "Official" stat cards many would yell and say "Hey, see, the game is not written!", while if I say that I have copies of all of the stat cards others will say " Look, see, the game is already done and they will not change anything no matter what even if something truly messed up is found!" This is one reason why I must tread light. Not because of ND but because readers will take things and misconstrue them or interpret them to fit their interpretations of the events. It's not that they are doing anything blatantly wrong. That is just human nature and part of what makes us what we are.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I hope that makes sense to you guys and helps clarify things.
Mike, while I agree that you should tread lightly on what you do and do not post, I think you're blowing out of proportion the responses you'd get. People know you only have what palladium gave you and you'll (probably.. don't know your exact arrangement) likely not get additional shipments if things are changed. People will yell "Hey, see, the game is not written" because the 98% completed "final^4" game (even if subjectively and incorrectly shrunk to just the starter for the reference) with rules that were supposedly finished months ago and approved by HG is still being tweaked... not because you mention you only have a portion of the stat cards.
It's a bit depressing but I checked out the Kingdom Death thread as it was another >$1,000,000 kickstarter with 5k+ pledgers that was supposed to deliver by Christmas (albeit started earlier) to see how the progress is going there. The creator has been communicating in a detailed and substantial fashion despite the delays and posting plastic sprue (both unassembled and assembled) pics. If he is at that stage (multiple steps BEYOND palladium/ND's efforts) and expects a Q2 delivery date.. well.. you can just do the math yourself.
Alpharius wrote: I cannot imagine the uproar that is going to take place when they show up at Gencon with box sets and 'convention exclusives' for sale before they ship anything to the backers...
They will absolutely pull a CMON and have sets for sale at Gencon, while backers will still be waiting in December to get all their items (as I was).
I believe that they will cut the box set sprue molds first, and do production runs of those, and get the core boxed game without extras into our hands by Gencon, then sell the game and other plastics that they fly in at Gencon, and call it good.
"We delivered to our Backers first, just like we said we would! What?? So we sold some Monsters and other cool things you were supposed to get, but they're coming, you're going to get yours!"
Hm, you just made me realise the other half of that - if they ship the base game early, it will only be to US backers. If you're international, you'll get the "it's too expensive, tough gak, you'll get it when you get it" that Reaper pulled in Bones 1 with Paints and Sophies - and is being pulled right now with Myth - which was supposedly "all ready to arrive, completely finished in December" - but bumped to Jan "for tax" - before they slipped it to "by June for foreigners" right as Jan hit...
Forar wrote: As I've said repeatedly; if it helps make the game better, good.
But I can't help read the repeated comments on "treading lightly" without thinking of unhealthy relationships.
It's good that you're giving feedback and it's being heard.
It's unfortunate that you have to apparently at least keep up the illusion of 'being on their side' for that voice to matter.
As long as you're not being a raging donkey cave about it, a good idea should stand on its merits alone, not because you fluffed it up with some flowers and praise.
Unfortunately for some personality types it is all in how an opinion or idea is presented and how it would be of benefit to them rather than it's inherent merit.
In some instances in a workplace how well a proposal is received is in direct proportion of how little work it represents.
Unfortunately there would not be many opportunities to demonstrate to the top guy how a given rule improves the game when they will not play it.
It is a challenge, I suspect the only way that carefully made rules will survive is keeping Kevin informed at all steps to get his "buy-in" and avoid the last minute re-write / reboot while ensuring he gets credit as an author.
It will always be a potential for a re-write; it is the only item that with his skill sets that he would feel the most comfortable putting his "stamp' on it, re-doing models or the color graphics intensive cards would not be an option. It also has the option to be FAQ'ed later or a second edition to be sold in short order so it is all good.
'Robotech RPG Tactics' Pushed Back Again
Plus Additional Details
Published: 01/30/2014 01:31am
Palladium Books has announced a new release date for Robotech RPG Tactics, plus additional information about the first releases for the game. The main box game and the first six expansion packs are now expected to ship in June, with "unbridled enthusiasm and lack of experience" blamed for the previously announced release date(s). The game was originally announced as a Fall 2013 release, but was pushed back to February 2014 in November (see "'Robotech RPG Tactics' Delayed").
Final prices for the trade release were also announced (tentative prices were previously announced with the product details (see "More Details on 'Robotech RPG Tactics'"). The main box game will be priced at $99.95, with the expansions prices as follow:
Robotech RPG Tactics is the #6 highest-grossing tabletop game funded through Kickstarter (see "Top 10 Tabletop Game Kickstarters"), with over $1.4 million raised from around 5300 backers.
Emphasis mine.
Well, that's something. No idea how accurate it might be, but it falls in line with what we've been assuming and reading between the lines for a while now.
The only surprise was detailed pricing info, which seems to have seen a 10-20% MSRP hike, which means those who bought into the KS got an even better deal, and those who pre-ordered through ebay or other sites that took money should have gotten a slightly better deal (saved a buck or two per pack, though the savings on the core box will be more significant), assuming the sellers don't try to renegotiate for that reason, or have to cancel and refund orders.
Thanks for the ICV2 post; since they publish a magazine for retailers, I'm guessing that is the info being passed around from Palladium to those channels. They may not be mum with them since Palladium doesn't already have retailers' money cashed yet (unlike us!).
At this point though, the buyers on ebay are completely at the mercy of the sellers. By the time it arrives, they won't be able to get their money back via paypal nor will they be able to even leave feedback. Effectively, the seller could deliver nothing and their only recourse would be a small claims lawsuit.
Certainly, though my experiences with one seller that has been listing those boxes for months now were all very good, so I'm not too worried about them failing their customers.
'Robotech RPG Tactics' Pushed Back Again
Plus Additional Details
Published: 01/30/2014 01:31am
Palladium Books has announced a new release date for Robotech RPG Tactics, plus additional information about the first releases for the game. The main box game and the first six expansion packs are now expected to ship in June, with "unbridled enthusiasm and lack of experience" blamed for the previously announced release date(s). The game was originally announced as a Fall 2013 release, but was pushed back to February 2014 in November (see "'Robotech RPG Tactics' Delayed").
Final prices for the trade release were also announced (tentative prices were previously announced with the product details (see "More Details on 'Robotech RPG Tactics'"). The main box game will be priced at $99.95, with the expansions prices as follow:
Robotech RPG Tactics is the #6 highest-grossing tabletop game funded through Kickstarter (see "Top 10 Tabletop Game Kickstarters"), with over $1.4 million raised from around 5300 backers.
I looked at the pre-order prices on The Warstore. They raised the prices by $6.95 on the Valkyries, Battlepods and Support Battlepods. A $1.95 on the Command Pack, and $2.95 on the Destroid and Spartans. It is quite funny that all of the costs are paid for and they jack the prices up even more. Let's hope the rules are good enough to keep this game in production, that there are lots of people playing this.
And I really hope that they have learned something to offset their "unbridled enthusiasm and lack of experience" if they plan to run another KS.
This also plays right into my prediction that they only get us the Core Boxed Game before Gencon, deliver all the other plastics after. All of these kits are from the core set.
On another point, I haven't watched Robotech in several years. Is the Female Power Armor really that big, compared to the Battloid Valkyries? The Max and Myria specials make the Female Power Armor look huge!
'Robotech RPG Tactics' Pushed Back Again
Plus Additional Details
Published: 01/30/2014 01:31am
Palladium Books has announced a new release date for Robotech RPG Tactics, plus additional information about the first releases for the game. The main box game and the first six expansion packs are now expected to ship in June, with "unbridled enthusiasm and lack of experience" blamed for the previously announced release date(s). The game was originally announced as a Fall 2013 release, but was pushed back to February 2014 in November (see "'Robotech RPG Tactics' Delayed").
Final prices for the trade release were also announced (tentative prices were previously announced with the product details (see "More Details on 'Robotech RPG Tactics'"). The main box game will be priced at $99.95, with the expansions prices as follow:
Robotech RPG Tactics is the #6 highest-grossing tabletop game funded through Kickstarter (see "Top 10 Tabletop Game Kickstarters"), with over $1.4 million raised from around 5300 backers.
I looked at the pre-order prices on The Warstore. They raised the prices by $6.95 on the Valkyries, Battlepods and Support Battlepods. A $1.95 on the Command Pack, and $2.95 on the Destroid and Spartans. It is quite funny that all of the costs are paid for and they jack the prices up even more. Let's hope the rules are good enough to keep this game in production, that there are lots of people playing this.
And I really hope that they have learned something to offset their "unbridled enthusiasm and lack of experience" if they plan to run another KS.
This also plays right into my prediction that they only get us the Core Boxed Game before Gencon, deliver all the other plastics after. All of these kits are from the core set.
On another point, I haven't watched Robotech in several years. Is the Female Power Armor really that big, compared to the Battloid Valkyries? The Max and Myria specials make the Female Power Armor look huge!
The FPA is huge. Just think the VF is the size of a Zen warrior. How much bigger must the FPA to hold a warrior, missiles, engines, et al.
As far as the first items listed for sale they have ALWAYS said that the initial public release would only be a few of the primary figs and later releases would add to that so this should not be anything new and should not be misconstrued as something more.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact only what is in the Box set will be seen in the initial public release if I remember correctly so no Mac II.
Mike1975 wrote: If there are any things seen as serious flaws like the HtH thing I hope to showcase them on my demos and maybe they can get changed so please point out any concerns or flaws and I will try to play them out and report on what I think to you and PB.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Concerns 1. Hand to Hand 2. Line of Sight Rules 3. Dodges, Roll, and sheer number of dice rolls needed. 4. ?
That mainly covers what jumped out at me from the limited info they posted. I'd throw in there skirmish army composition being able to use all your figures in some limited fashion as well as possibly anti-missile fire as a possible concern. I say possible for that last one as I'm not sure how effective it ends up being and having every battlepod getting AA fire feels a bit off (but admittedly I've never played it in person so I can't say with any certainty).
On another point, I haven't watched Robotech in several years. Is the Female Power Armor really that big, compared to the Battloid Valkyries? The Max and Myria specials make the Female Power Armor look huge!
A pic from some of the original concept art I found on the macross mecha manual site. Warning.. nsfw. Obviously it shows a female and not a male but we know that the veritech is roughly the same size and girth of a male zentraedi. I'd imagine that the battloid would be bigger than the female but that still leaves it substantially smaller than the power armor. That and you can surprisingly find alot of fan pics apparently of miriya in various stages of undress when doing a quick google image search of "robotech miriya".
The FPA is huge. Just think the VF is the size of a Zen warrior. How much bigger must the FPA to hold a warrior, missiles, engines, et al.
As far as the first items listed for sale they have ALWAYS said that the initial public release would only be a few of the primary figs and later releases would add to that so this should not be anything new and should not be misconstrued as something more.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact only what is in the Box set will be seen in the initial public release if I remember correctly so no Mac II.
Mike, I agree with what you said here completely. However, what I was pointing out is this: [please note these times are not in order, just laying out times, not a timeline!]
March (31 days) to cut those 6 (minimum) molds to make the base game and those 6 boxes.
April (30 days) for a boat to sail from China to the U.S. to get the models to PB/ND.
May (31 days) to actually make the sprues, packaging and get it all put together with the dice, markers, etc for 5300 backers and how many retail core games and supplemental boxes?
So, No where in there is there time to put ANY of the other models on that boat and get into the backers hands by June. It will be a small miracle if they can get all the remaining molds cut by June 1st. So, a bit disappointing that they're going to short change us, step up and say they kept their word.
Concerns
1. Hand to Hand
2. Line of Sight Rules
3. Dodges, Roll, and sheer number of dice rolls needed.
4. Anti-Missile
That mainly covers what jumped out at me from the limited info they posted. I'd throw in there skirmish army composition being able to use all your figures in some limited fashion as well as possibly anti-missile fire as a possible concern. I say possible for that last one as I'm not sure how effective it ends up being and having every battlepod getting AA fire feels a bit off (but admittedly I've never played it in person so I can't say with any certainty).
Well Battlepods can only shoot what is shot at them. All units can spend a command point and try to shoot down missiles but you need a 6. Anti-Missile makes the roll a free one, no longer costing command points and working on a 5+. So that's a 1 in 3 of shooting down missiles. Some missiles that have Anti-missile get a 4+. So I don't see this as a game changer but it does improve a battlepods life expectancy. On the other hand if you have a Scout with your guys you can also get a free dodge roll (no command point cost) if the AM fails. At least that is what the early release rules said. I will have to double check and make sure this is unchanged.
So honestly there is a chance but I don't see this killing gameplay but rather as enhancing it and making things closer to what you'd see in the cartoon.
So honestly there is a chance but I don't see this killing gameplay but rather as enhancing it and making things closer to what you'd see in the cartoon.
I don't recall seeing much "anti-missile" fire from backwards facing battlepods. They occassionally dodged but usually just died to missiles. I realize if they're true to the OSM that the guns have to do something but from a tabletop perspective giving each and every one of them seems to be a cluttering and unneeded step. From a game theory perspective, it seems like having an AA weapon would be better off giving you a better chance to destroy the missiles (like a 4+ instead of a 5+) but still require you to spend a command point (thereby allowing particularly important pods a chance to survive but at a "cost" without giving every pod a chance and slowing down the game). YMMV and that again is just theory based off of the TV show that palladium said they were trying to emulate.
Hey, if that is the way you guys like to play it. Houserule it and go for it. I see no problem in playing the game your way. Shoot I've done that a lot of times myself.
If I want to play an incomplete and clunky game that needs me to do a significant portion of the game design work via house rules, I'll play the RPG. House rules become an issue in pick up games significantly more than RPGs which tend to (ideally) have stable groups under one "leader" GM. The usual palladium style solution of "just house rule it" doesn't work well in complete stranger tabletop game situations. I understand you don't mean anything by the comment but a response of "just house rule it" is an infuriating go to answer for everything for decades from Palladium RPG white knights. They'll ironically refuse to "house rule" a new edition back into their old one if it invalidates their books after only 20 years of use but they're ok with spouting it off when someone isn't happy with the rules.
A pic from some of the original concept art I found on the macross mecha manual site. Warning.. nsfw. Obviously it shows a female and not a male but we know that the veritech is roughly the same size and girth of a male zentraedi. I'd imagine that the battloid would be bigger than the female but that still leaves it substantially smaller than the power armor. That and you can surprisingly find alot of fan pics apparently of miriya in various stages of undress when doing a quick google image search of "robotech miriya".
Yes, I understand that, but from the digital prints that they did, the FPA towers over the battlepods, which each have a pilot in them, and the cartoon has males riding on them also. So it just seems that the FPA is oversized in comparison to the battlepods. Wonder if the MPA will be as large too.
warboss wrote: If I want to play an incomplete and clunky game that needs me to do a significant portion of the game design work via house rules, I'll play the RPG. House rules become an issue in pick up games significantly more than RPGs which tend to (ideally) have stable groups under one "leader" GM. The usual palladium style solution of "just house rule it" doesn't work well in complete stranger tabletop game situations. I understand you don't mean anything by the comment but a response of "just house rule it" is an infuriating go to answer for everything for decades from Palladium RPG white knights. They'll ironically refuse to "house rule" a new edition back into their old one if it invalidates their books after only 20 years of use but they're ok with spouting it off when someone isn't happy with the rules.
To be fair there are 4 things that concern you. I explained one and it does not meet your idea of what the mechanics should be. I've played it out in a few games and I think it works quite well. Nobody will ever have a system that they like everything for. Battletech, one of my favs has a lot of things that are slow, clunky, and make no sense, but I still manage to enjoy the game immensely. We sometimes played as if the AC5 did 8 damage and the AC 2 as if it did 4. There are numerous additional rules in the new rulesbooks that can be used. That does not mean I scrap the system and move on. If you think Anti-missile should have a better chance to shoot down missiles play it that way. I was not trying to think or play the way PB people play since the last time I've played an RPG was over 20 years ago.
That being said you have to try to match "cartoon realism" with mecha stats and then put it on a game table and make it fun and playable. I honestly believe that this will be what you will see when the time comes. You might not like one thing or another. There is NO WAY in the world that everyone can be pleased since we all have different ideas on what this game should be like. Some want less detail, others more. I personally like a bit more detail but I understand that adding too much will slow down the game, especially for those new to mini gaming and possibly hurt the game with newer players. I have not heard of a system yet that is universally liked and preferred. So in all I was not trying to infuriate just give an honest option, one that I have done myself on multiple occaisions. Remember I've not posted or played anything Palladium related until I heard about this KS.
So the other concerns remain
1. Hand to Hand (I've expressed concerns)
2. Line of Sight Rules (I will give more details when I play out a game or two)
3. Dodges, Roll, and sheer number of dice rolls needed. (Same as #2)
So if at that point there are still major concerns, please bring them up! It's like in a Brainstorming meeting, there are no bad ideas except the ones not brought to the table.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Battlepod Size vs Mechwarrior Size
Palladium will be sending out a separate announcement about Robotech® RPG Tactics™ that we think will make people happy. You can expect to see it later tonight or Friday.
Meanwhile, with the Chinese New Year in full swing, we won’t have much new to report for a couple of weeks. After that, we expect to be able to give you more news about manufacturing and progress. I can say that Jeff Burke continues to work diligently creating a comprehensive Macross Mecha Color Guide and he’s about 80% done. Looking good. Meanwhile, Ninja Division and Palladium are both continuing to finish and fine-tune other aspects of the product line. Again, Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is absolutely coming out in 2014 and Kickstarter supporters will get product before retail. This game is going to be epic fun.
I couldn't help but giggle at the 80% comment. At least Forar dosent have to take any shots.lol
Mike1975 wrote: Hey, if that is the way you guys like to play it. Houserule it and go for it. I see no problem in playing the game your way. Shoot I've done that a lot of times myself.
Just want to say...
Please don't let these rules degenerate into what GW has done. Excusing poor rules with "Just 4+ it." Or "Just house rule it." Is plain bad news bears.
I'm not saying you're there yet, and I understand why you said that here, I just wanted to voice that.
Mike1975 wrote: Hey, if that is the way you guys like to play it. Houserule it and go for it. I see no problem in playing the game your way. Shoot I've done that a lot of times myself.
Just want to say...
Please don't let these rules degenerate into what GW has done. Excusing poor rules with "Just 4+ it." Or "Just house rule it." Is plain bad news bears.
I'm not saying you're there yet, and I understand why you said that here, I just wanted to voice that.
Agreed and that was my point. Mike, I know you didn't mean anything by the statement (and said that earlier) but you inadvertently used a flashpoint phrase in relation to anything Palladium. House ruling has been the defacto excuse/solution for everything with Palladium for the past two decades so you may want to stay away from that particular set of words. No offense meant and certainly none taken.
He's been working on that color guide now for over 3 weeks so at that pace he should hopefully be done in another week. I'm curious to see what that month of effort amounts to.
On a related side note, the Robotech Marines RPG book has over the past month been pushed from "early 2014 tentative" to "april" to "spring"... It's not looking good for that one either but at least the Northern Gun book has gotten a firm date (again).
Update #128 Jan 30 2014
Special Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Update – January 30, 2014
I hope all of our Kickstarter supporters and Robotech® fans will be pleased with the news in this Special Update.
We have decided that, in order to start getting Robotech® RPG Tactics™ products into your hands as soon as possible, we are going to release the Kickstarter items in TWO waves. Wave One products will ship to Kickstarter supporters as soon as we get them; probably early June, 2014. If we’re really lucky, possibly in May. A few weeks later, the Wave One products will ship to distributors.
If we wait until EVERY item in the Kickstarter has gone through engineering, tooling, and quality control before sending it ALL into manufacturing, you will not get them until freakin’ Autumn. We don’t want that, and we know you sure don’t.
By splitting the product release into two shipments, one in the Spring and the other in the Fall, we get to release Wave One to fans who are dying for this product, and you get to start playing and building armies and having fun. We think this is a good solution and hope you do, too.
Kickstarter WAVE ONE Items – Ship May/June, 2014 to Kickstarter Supporters
Wave One will give you the main box game, the rules, color guide and the 34 figures that come in the box. You will also get the first six retail expansion packs. EVERYTHING you need to get going building and painting your Robotech® armies, and to start playing games.
1. Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Box Set
Full color, softcover rule book; wraparound cover and lots of new, color artwork, including a comprehensive Color Paint Guide by Jeff Burke. Rules capture the speed and battle action of the Robotech® TV show.
24 Battle Dice, 12 UEDF and 12 Zentraedi.
40 color game cards (unit cards, etc.).
4x VF-1A Valkyries (in Fighter, Guardian, and Battloid modes); that’s 12 figures total.
1x VF-1J "Officer" in all three modes; three figures total.
4x Destroids: 2 Tomahawks and 2 Defenders.
12x Regult Zentraedi Tactical Battlepods.
1x Glaug Officer’s Battlepod.
1x Quel-Regult Recon Battlepod.
1x Quel-Gulnau Recovery Pod.
1/285th scale, high quality, multi-pose plastic game pieces (40mm to 70mm tall). World-class sculpts from sculptors around the world.
Game rules use D6.
Turn-based system of play.
Scalable from small squad skirmishes to mass battles. Can accommodate two to several players.
Combat is fast and designed to emulate the anime action.
Measuring tape required to determine targets and distance.
Plastic game pieces. Assembly and painting required.
Not a toy. Small parts, choking hazard. Not recommended for children under the age of 13. Adult supervision advised.
Release Dates: Ships in early June to Kickstarter supporters. Ships a few weeks later to distributors. Should be in your hands no later than June and in stores by the beginning of July, 2014.
2. UEDF Valkyrie Wing – Wave One
2 Valkyries in Fighter mode.
2 Valkyries in Guardian mode.
2 Valkyries in Battloid mode.
Multiple heads for making the VF-1A and VF-1J.
3. UEDF Destroid Pack – Wave One
2 Tomahawk Destroids – the main battle tank of Destroids, brimming with powerful particle beam cannons for arms, and wielding a battery of missiles and an array of other weapons.
2 Defender Destroids – a long-range, anti-aircraft juggernaut capable of shooting down incoming Zentraedi Battlepods and Gnerl Fighters.
4. UEDF Spartan Pack – Wave One
2 Spartan Destroids – civil defense, riot control and deadly in hand to hand combat.
2 Phalanx Destroids – a walking, long-range missile artillery unit.
5. Zentraedi Regult Battlepod Squad – Wave One
6 Regult Tactical Battlepods – the lightning-quick Regults, armed with a pair of particle cannons and auto-cannons, attack in wave after wave.
6. Zentraedi Artillery Battlepods – Wave One
4 Zentraedi Support Battlepods, each of which can be made into any of the following:
Gluuhaug-Regult – Light Artillery Battlepod
Serauhaug-Regult – Heavy Artillery Battlepod
Telnesta-Regult – Experimental Particle Beam Battlepod
Four figures total.
7. Zentraedi Glaug Command Pack – Wave One
1 Glaug Officer’s Battlepod – the fast and deadly mecha of Zentraedi field leaders.
1 Quel-Regult Scout Battlepod – the stealthy eyes and ears of your Zentraedi battle force; electronic warfare capabilities.
1 Quel-Gulnau Recovery Pod – enhances the Glaug’s ability to bring in Battlepod reinforcements. Note: This figure has NEVER before been offered by any company.
8. Battle Foam Carrying Case – Wave One (tentative)
For those of you who ordered one, we will try to have the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ carrying case available to ship with Wave One. If not, it will be shipped in Wave Two. But Wave One is looking pretty good.
Battle Cry and Showdown Note
The Wave One portions of Battle Cry, Showdown and Reckless will ship as part of Wave One. Here’s a breakdown of what that will entail:
Battle Cry: Main box game (containing 5x Valkyries in all three modes, 2x Tomahawks, 2x Defenders, 12x Regults, 1x Glaug, 1x Quel-Regult, and 1x Quel-Gulnau), plus 4x Valkyries in all three modes, 2x Spartans, 2x Phalanxes, 12x Regults, 4x Artillery Battlepods, 1x Glaug, 1x Quel-Regult, and 1x Quel-Gulnau. That’s 69 out of the total 96 game pieces that come with Battle Cry. The remaining 27 game pieces will ship to you with Wave Two.
Showdown: Two main box games (containing 10x Valkyries in all three modes, 4x Tomahawks, 4x Defenders, 24x Regults, 2x Glaug, 2x Quel-Regult, and 2x Quel-Gulnau total), plus 8x Valkyries in all three modes, 4x Spartans, 4x Phalanxes, 24x Regults, 8x Artillery Battlepods, 2x Glaug, 2x Quel-Regult, and 2x Quel-Gulnau. That’s 138 out of the total 192 game pieces that come with Showdown. The remaining 54 game pieces will ship to you with Wave Two.
Reckless: Four main box games (containing 20x Valkyries in all three modes, 8x Tomahawks, 8x Defenders, 48x Regults, 4x Glaug, 4x Quel-Regult, and 4x Quel-Gulnau total), plus 16x Valkyries in all three modes, 8x Spartans, 8x Phalanxes, 48x Regults, 16x Artillery Battlepods, 4x Glaug, 4x Quel-Regult, and 4x Quel-Gulnau. That’s 276 out of the total 384 game pieces that come with Reckless. The remaining 108 game pieces will ship to you with Wave Two.
Add-Ons: Similarly, all Add-Ons that are made up of Wave One game pieces will ship with Wave One. That includes the Valkyrie Wing, Destroid Pack, Spartan Pack, Regult Battlepod Squadron, Artillery Battlepods, Command Pack, and hopefully the Battle Foam Bag, as mentioned above. This may also include the Tomahawks from the Daedalus Attack Add-On, but the logistics of splitting that item are uncertain at this time.
WAVE TWO Kickstarter Fullfillment – Fall, 2014
– The balance of ALL the remaining Kickstarter items should ship by October
The Kickstarter exclusives and EVERYTHING else that was part of the Kickstarter will ship in the Fall, probably September or October. We actually hope to ship much sooner, but we can NOT promise that. Obviously, we would love to have ALL the remaining Wave Two product in time for Gen Con Indy ourselves, and that is what we are working toward, but that seems quite unlikely. After Wave Two items have been sent to Kickstarter supporters, we will ship the next wave of retail products to distributors.
Please keep in mind...
This is still the game you supported. It is just shipping in two parts and later than any of us would like.
This is the game you have wanted for more than 25 years! And you are going to get it.
Think about why you are so frustrated and perhaps even angry about the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ delays. It’s because you want it so badly you can’t stand it. You want it now! Us too! That’s why we have decided to ship in two waves, so you can get enough to start building and painting your armies, learning the rules and PLAY as soon as possible!
Splitting the Kickstarter shipments into two waves will cost us more money, but Palladium Books and Ninja Division are willing to eat those extra costs to get this great product into your hands. We are committed to Robotech® and you.
By the time you’re into the groove and jonesing for more, Wave Two arrives to expand your armies and the scope of battles. And Kickstarter supporters will be getting some items that will not be released on the retail market for many months to follow. Nice.
I know it’s not what you were expecting. Neither were we, but we think this is a good solution. We hope you do, too.
The mantra between Palladium Books and Ninja Division in recent weeks has been, we need to do “whatever it takes to get this product into our customers’ hands as soon as possible.”
Wave One should ship no later than June! Actually, we’re shooting for May, but at this stage we don’t know if that’s possible and do NOT want to disappoint you if things should get pushed back again. June seems to be a pretty safe ship date.
Wave One will start to ship to Kickstarter supporters the day the product arrives at our warehouse from China! How committed is everyone? Not only is Palladium pulling out all the stops, but John Cadice, the Creative Director of Ninja Division, told us he, and maybe some of his crew, may actually fly to Michigan to help ship product for the first few days!
In the end, other than unwanted delays, nothing has changed. You will get the game and products you supported, and the hours of fun that comes with them. We want a quality product that thrills and pleases Robotech® fans around the world. That’s a lot of responsibility, but we welcome it and will deliver it.
Keep the faith. This is a very viable plan. We are getting close. You will be pleased.
Will probably get here second week of August. Just for one wave. Ugh. At this rate Mars Attacks! and the Reaper Bones II I backed for will arrive first.
Concrete info is good even if the news itself isn't. I'm ok with split shipping and said long ago that they should have done it in the first place. If they had focused on the wave 1 stuff first, maybe we'd have gotten it on time.... eh, spilled milk and all. I do hope still hope that they decide to put up no frills rules PDFs up in the meantime to get us all prepped. I guess with the QRaus coming even later, I'll take metal ones out of my "for sale" swap shop ad with the next update.
warboss wrote: Concrete info is good even if the news itself isn't. I'm ok with split shipping and said long ago that they should have done it in the first place. If they had focused on the wave 1 stuff first, maybe we'd have gotten it on time.... eh, spilled milk and all. I do hope still hope that they decide to put up no frills rules PDFs up in the meantime to get us all prepped. I guess with the QRaus coming even later, I'll take metal ones out of my "for sale" swap shop ad with the next update.
If I can get my way you'll know the rules way before anything ships even if they are not in hand. Have faith dear sirs!
If I can get my way you'll know the rules way before anything ships even if they are not in hand. Have faith dear sirs!
Lets hope that you get your way. Is it bad that the news on this project that made me ironically happiest (relatively speaking) is that it's been changed to split shipping? At least even with my pessimism, I can believe that there is a possibility of accomplishing that in the next 6 months.
According to the update PB IS paying for the wave two s&h. Time to finish painting the 2% that's left on Max. Guess this means the price for Miriya will stay the same or move up in price since having 3 of them would give you a legal FPA squad.
With the average delay of over a year, I guess they can pay that out of a year's worth of interest on our money that they collected last May. While I'm glad and will give them credit that they decided to do the right thing and could have chosen otherwise with no recourse on our part, it is still the right thing. All the delays to the point of the original delivery date are squarely at the feet of ND/Palladium and possibly Harmony Gold. Once the final sprue renders are submitted, only then are they at the mercy of Chinese manufacturers, shippers, customs, the weather, etc and things that are largely out of their control. I'll give them credit for trying to make partial (and admitedly expensive) amends for their own series of mistakes that more competent pre/post KS project management would have avoided.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cypher-xv wrote: According to the update PB IS paying for the wave two s&h. Time to finish painting the 2% that's left on Max. Guess this means the price for Miriya will stay the same or move up in price since having 3 of them would give you a legal FPA squad.
In a way, the one good thing about split shipping is that people may have more painted armies. With a looming second shipment, that might be the kick in the pants I need to paint up at least one side of my first wave (just the battlecry level for me) this summer. In the meantime, I've got the FPA squad to work on that I'm taking off sale.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Mike1975: I know you don't have the whole kit and kaboodle of stat cards but will what they're shipping out for the basic most common blitzkried/battlecry pledge end up supplying players with a legal army for both sides? Whether skirmish or full scale, either one.
There is no word yet on whether extra sets of dice, markers, templates, and decals will go out with wave one. Also, I don't know if it's a copy/paste error but we unlocked both VF-1R and VF-1S heads for the valk packs and the starter and there is no mention of either in the descriptions.
All the two shipments does is now they meet their commitment to kickstarter folks and then can be in the clear to release at Gencon and retail. I suspect they have burned through a fair bit of the money and need some incoming.
The amount extra we all paid for the "add-on" items will probably still cover the actual cost (the shipping costs we were assured initially we did not have to pay...).
They can also look good that they "shipped" in under a year so all is well. I am now concerned how long the "second wave" will be drawn out without some incentive to force the next release.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So 3 Squadrons for each side will show up, Zen will have 3 plus some support. Enough for a good game skirmish or otherwise.
Thanks for checking on that. With 9 valkyries (but no confirmed VF-1S bits in the update), can we still make two basic valkyrie squads? That might add another 80pts to the RDF side if possible (with the 9th veritech acting as the standin for the VF-1S) and even things up a bit more.
Mike1975 wrote: damn, you are right. 2 UEDF squadrons so enough for 300+ points per side!
Yeah, I'm ok with being within 15 pts of each other. The other cheap gamer trick would be to double your veritech squads by for instance using each transformation model as a squad as long as you're willing to put up with as a player only using veritechs in one mode. So, your battloid veritechs are one squadron and your guardian veritechs are another and they can both swap in models from the jet fighter mode. I might have to do that schtick to buff up the RDF once I add in my FPAs to the zentraedi side.
If I had more faith in Palladium, I'd be severely tempted. That said... I don't think you'll have a problem selling it off on bartertown or the swap shop. As it stands, I've got enough with my battlecry to keep me busy painting wise for a while and potentially play using some alternate rules like shockforce/warengine.
There is no word yet on whether extra sets of dice, markers, templates, and decals will go out with wave one. Also, I don't know if it's a copy/paste error but we unlocked both VF-1R and VF-1S heads for the valk packs and the starter and there is no mention of either in the descriptions.
I got an answer about this. Basically, if it was in the starter, extras will be in wave 1. Destroid command and Vf-1J/S bits are also included. I'm on public wifi so dont want to log into KS but feel free to post the answer from Jeff Burke there. Props to Jeff for a speedy response.
All the components that come with the main game should be included with the first wave shipment. Including the blast template, counters and decals. With the exception of the "D" head, all the heads will be part of the Valkyrie wing. The Destroid command piece will be part of the Destroid kit, so it will also be included. Hope this helps.
I'm not but apparently he got copy/pasted (lol!) by Palladium the same answer to likely the same question. I think I beat him to the punch though by a few minutes!
warboss wrote: I'm not but apparently he got copy/pasted (lol!) by Palladium the same answer to likely the same question. I think I beat him to the punch though by a few minutes!
I'm holding my breath on actually getting the Wave 1 stuff by May or June. I really do not expect that to occur at all. The delays for this game have been saddening but at least they finally gave us something. Time to breathe half a sigh of relief.
Well, at the very least they've got breathing room for February.
But seriously, if they expect 3-4 months to do tests, run full production, ship to the states and fire off the boxes, they're going to need the first slot their factory has, pray for zero showstopper issues, and hit things at a run.
Like, no more of this "it's a big, complicated, slow process, takes time, don't want to rush it, give you the 98% final awesomeness you demand, etc". Things will need to happen, and they'll have to happen quickly.
I'm skeptical. Willing to see them out, but if they want something other than mockery, the March/April updates are going to have to contain some concrete good news to even have a chance of it happening.
Of course, even with shipping in June or July, I wouldn't expect to actually have my box in hand until August anyway.
Maybe September.
Which is to say that I'm pretty sure I'm on their gak list, and thus will probably be mailed last. :-P
Forar wrote: Like, no more of this "it's a big, complicated, slow process, takes time, don't want to rush it, give you the 98% final awesomeness you demand, etc". Things will need to happen, and they'll have to happen quickly.
I'm skeptical. Willing to see them out, but if they want something other than mockery, the March/April updates are going to have to contain some concrete good news to even have a chance of it happening.
It might be more accurate to say that they'd need the March/April updates to contain some polystyrene good news to have a chance of May/June happening.
I don't why some of the hate on wave shipping but to each there own. I guess. I just don't want them to rush it out the door with bad details an such just to make gencon.
Cypher-xv wrote: I don't why some of the hate on wave shipping but to each there own. I guess. I just don't want them to rush it out the door with bad details an such just to make gencon.
Delays =/= better Quality. It may be constantly used as an excuse for supposedly ensuring quality to cover up poor project and resource management though but the two are not interchangeable.
You have to remember that the announcement of split shipping by definition has delayed the complete fulfillment of the kickstarter from last week's unrealistic (except to ND/Palladium) "spring" to "fall". That's an extra half year of delays being spun as "good news" when it's clearly not.. it's simply the best of a BAD situation. Dont' get me wrong... split shipping at this point after 15+ months of apparently inadequate development and work is the best solution but it's hardly a "good solution". At best, it's making lemonade from lemons and for people who simply took Palladium at their word and don't follow every armchair quarterback assessment or offsite Official but not on the KS update it's nothing more than another 6 month delay on top of the 6 months they already announced (revised October date to "spring") till they get all their stuff.
Again, I'm glad that they're doing this and that they're footing the bill since I feel it's the right thing to do... but I understand why people who pledged for their first kickstarter based on the starting page propaganda, only followed the unrealistic updates kept telling us how well they were doing, and now are unahppy when they find out that some of their stuff won't arrive till around a year after the day after KS update otpimistically hinted at.
Red Comet wrote: I'm holding my breath on actually getting the Wave 1 stuff by May or June. I really do not expect that to occur at all. The delays for this game have been saddening but at least they finally gave us something. Time to breathe half a sigh of relief.
I would agree with you, but this smells more like a self serving tool for PB. "Hey, we want to sell oodles of this stuff at our new jacked up prices at Gencon. But we said we'd give all these 'yahoos' their stuff first, hmm. What to do, what to do..."
So I do like that we're going to get some of it in June, but , I'd really like to think that they weren't a bunch of tools who didn't give a about us. But nothing points to anything different.
Red Comet wrote: I'm holding my breath on actually getting the Wave 1 stuff by May or June. I really do not expect that to occur at all. The delays for this game have been saddening but at least they finally gave us something. Time to breathe half a sigh of relief.
I would agree with you, but this smells more like a self serving tool for PB. "Hey, we want to sell oodles of this stuff at our new jacked up prices at Gencon. But we said we'd give all these 'yahoos' their stuff first, hmm. What to do, what to do..."
So I do like that we're going to get some of it in June, but , I'd really like to think that they weren't a bunch of tools who didn't give a about us. But nothing points to anything different.
I'm completely fine with self serving tools for PB/ND as long as it *ALSO* benefits me in some way. Like I said earlier, they're try to make the best of a bad situation (that they themselves created).
Cypher-xv wrote: Frankly I'm surprised it's not coming out 2015. Only because of the info by Paulson. I'm just worried they might cut corners just to make GC.
What info by Paulson? And how does it relate to PB not understanding how to get miniatures made, and ND being incredibly slow in digitally producing the sculpts, and apparently which order they were working on them?
besides their reputation in general PB is working on something that is new to them , granted with help, but new, so naturally there are misgivings and any issue will raise loud voices of the naysayers. I do not think they have worked efficiently or effectively BUT I am also fully aware that I am not aware of the inner workings and progress of this from start to finish. I've given them more latitude than most. I am curious to see how things progress from here. Hopefully they will meet these expectations that they have set for themselves. If not things are going to get messy.
Mike1975 wrote: Hopefully they will meet these expectations that they have set for themselves. If not things are going to get messy.
Even when we get our first batch there will always be those who will not be happy. From the update pics what they've shown so far has been pretty good. I guess there're saving the best for last. Get the zentradi out of the way then move on to the rdf mecha. But as long as the quality is there most of us will be happy. Maybe even BS.
Red Comet wrote: I'm holding my breath on actually getting the Wave 1 stuff by May or June. I really do not expect that to occur at all. The delays for this game have been saddening but at least they finally gave us something. Time to breathe half a sigh of relief.
I would agree with you, but this smells more like a self serving tool for PB. "Hey, we want to sell oodles of this stuff at our new jacked up prices at Gencon. But we said we'd give all these 'yahoos' their stuff first, hmm. What to do, what to do..."
So I do like that we're going to get some of it in June, but , I'd really like to think that they weren't a bunch of tools who didn't give a about us. But nothing points to anything different.
I'm completely fine with self serving tools for PB/ND as long as it *ALSO* benefits me in some way. Like I said earlier, they're try to make the best of a bad situation (that they themselves created).
Pretty much this. The only issue I have is if the quality is absolute crap and the miniatures I paid for end up being total garbage. I don't mind waiting for this stuff to come out if it means higher quality.
And yet on that token, imagine how pissed people will be if they take an extra 6-12 months on at least part of the product line and it's still crap. And not "omg there's a tiny mold line on one leg, WHOLE MODEL RUINED!", but actual legit critique and issues that should've been considered dealbreakers by reasonable people.
Not to say that'll be the case, just agree with Warboss' point that extra time doesn't equal quality. It means there's no excuse about 'being rushed', and any issues or failings land right at their feet accordingly.
According to my napkin math, I'll have 552 figures coming across those 8 boxes (with the remainder and some add ons due in October of 2025 or whenever), of which 207 will actually be mine (the rest going to my cr... guys), of which I'm currently planning on keeping 102. Realizing I have 300+ minis lined up to arrive this year (maybe, maaaaybe) and that storage space in a downtown condo being what it is, I'm definitely leaning towards trimming that down, saving myself some crazy amounts of assembly/painting time, and having to properly store/find transport for it all.
Hell, making back some cash on the secondary market is actually taking second place to "man, I don't think I'll ever field more than 3 squads of base Veritechs at once anyway, why the hell would I need 29 VTs??"
But that's getting ahead of myself. First they need to actually deliver. 149 days until the end of June and counting...
I'm expecting that they ship a half dozen boxes to US backers before GenCon. They can then say they "started shipping", and then proceed to sell as much as they possibly can at Gencon. They then take a week off, resume shipping to US backers, and announce that due to the exorbitant USPS costs that they will not wave ship products to non-US backers due to the cost (see Reaper, Myth) and instead send it all to us in one big chunk "definitely before Christmas" which might then arrive by February 2015. Or June. After the US gets waves 2 & 3 sent individually, in any case...
Azazelx wrote: I'm expecting that they ship a half dozen boxes to US backers before GenCon. They can then say they "started shipping", and then proceed to sell as much as they possibly can at Gencon. They then take a week off, resume shipping to US backers, and announce that due to the exorbitant USPS costs that they will not wave ship products to non-US backers due to the cost (see Reaper, Myth) and instead send it all to us in one big chunk "definitely before Christmas" which might then arrive by February 2015. Or June. After the US gets waves 2 & 3 sent individually, in any case...
Yes. It's important we pin them down on all this. While it doesn't stop them from doing it, it's nice to be able to rub it in the fanboys faces.
I am totally confident that I'll get my delivery before my birthday in July, even here in the UK.
Mind you, that may be because I only went in for the models, so only backed for the specials, characters and that resin SDF-1. so, yes, I am talking about July 2015.
It'a already been so long since I backed this that my wallet has forgotten having to pay for anything and I am expecting another 12-18 months of waiting before I actually get anything. I could, in fact, be the very last person to get anything out of backing this - unless they seriously up the shipping to Australia, of course.
Azazelx wrote: I'm expecting that they ship a half dozen boxes to US backers before GenCon. They can then say they "started shipping", and then proceed to sell as much as they possibly can at Gencon. They then take a week off, resume shipping to US backers, and announce that due to the exorbitant USPS costs that they will not wave ship products to non-US backers due to the cost (see Reaper, Myth) and instead send it all to us in one big chunk "definitely before Christmas" which might then arrive by February 2015. Or June. After the US gets waves 2 & 3 sent individually, in any case...
Yes. It's important we pin them down on all this. While it doesn't stop them from doing it, it's nice to be able to rub it in the fanboys faces.
While it might make you feel better if/when that happens, you know the any True Fanboys will hand wave away whatever bad thing/delay might or might not happen anyway!
Mike1975 wrote: besides their reputation in general PB is working on something that is new to them , granted with help, but new, so naturally there are misgivings and any issue will raise loud voices of the naysayers. I do not think they have worked efficiently or effectively BUT I am also fully aware that I am not aware of the inner workings and progress of this from start to finish. I've given them more latitude than most. I am curious to see how things progress from here. Hopefully they will meet these expectations that they have set for themselves. If not things are going to get messy.
I was looking at the writing credits on the RRT rulebook (from The Warstore), and it says: written by Alessio Cavatore, David Freeman and Carmen Bellaire.
I know Alessio doesn't work for PB, does anyone know if Freeman or Bellaire work there? I am just glad that it doesn't have Kevin's name on it. Maybe it will be a good product after all!
As to the commenters saying that some people won't be happy receiving some of our stuff early. That's not it at all. It's that the company is full of , and even from this far outside the project, I can tell that they're not working on things in even a somewhat logical order. We've seen prints of the FPA, then the Artillery Pods, then the regular Pods. WTF would they be working on the FPA before the stuff in the boxed set?? Am I unhappy with ND? Yes, because they don't have anyone [read project manager] keeping noses to grindstones and a logical game plan. Am I unhappy with PB? Yes, but really just for the BS that they keep trolling out in the updates. Just be upfront and honest, don't be patronizing or act like you're doing me a favor. You aren't doing me a favor. Delivering in June is more than half a year late. And no, it's not because they were ensuring that it is a great product, or making the game better. AND they're only delivering half of the stuff at that time. I don't seek to infringe on your happiness at getting the base game in June, but don't toadie around that they're suddenly the best thing since sliced bread because they are sending the base game out and wonder why other people aren't impressed in a completely lackluster performance. And we won't know the actual quality of anything until it shows up to your house. I haven't commented on the quality of any of these products, as I don't know what that will be. I am just unhappy with the company and how every update makes it out like they are doing us a favor. If you are enamored with PB/ND, I am not naysaying your enjoyment, I am just being a realist.
These delays really, really suck, but what I am waiting to see is the rules. A local store is going to be running a campaign when the game hits retail; so if the game is pretty good like Mike says (hopefully they take your critique into account) then I will be jumping in. I didn't have the cash to kickstart this (if I did I would be about as unhappy as everyone else). I really wanted a Rick Hunter LE and super valks and monster, and the battle cry pledge was such a great deal. Hopefully PB/ND stick to this current deadline they set.
Carmen Bellaire is the palladium employee that picked up the mantle of "minis guy" with Robotech. I didn't know Alessio was working on it and he's a relatively well know name in minis game design over the past few years. The thing is though that he is well known because he is everywhere is seems with lots of different game rules to his credit since leaving GW a few years ago so I don't know how much work he actually does over time on each project individually as opposed to being a "designer for hire" who just gives his opinion with an overview. Just off the top of my head, he's got Mantic Kings of War, Bolt Action, Loka, and All Quiet on the Martian Front to name a few. I haven't actually played any of them so can't comment on the rules directly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Salacious Greed wrote: As to the commenters saying that some people won't be happy receiving some of our stuff early. That's not it at all. It's that the company is full of , and even from this far outside the project, I can tell that they're not working on things in even a somewhat logical order. We've seen prints of the FPA, then the Artillery Pods, then the regular Pods. WTF would they be working on the FPA before the stuff in the boxed set??
I'd point out that they said they recieved a bunch of 3d printing test models at once just prior to Christmas and they've been drip feeding them individually since. Posting pics of an FPA before pics of a Regult doesn't mean the former was worked on first. That said I agree (and even said exactly that earlier) that they should have been working on the supposed "wave 1" stuff first and ensuring that at least something made their deadlines of October-December. Their latest update is not good news but rather the best (assuming they don't miss that deadline yet again) of a bad situation that they're entirely to date responsible for.
Alpharius wrote: I'll never forget or forgive Alessio for the abomination that was his Skaven Army Book in WFB!
Are you talking about the overall book or the abomination unit in that book? If the former, are you sure you're not a dwarf player instead holding that grudge? Just kidding... I have almost no idea with what happens over on the fantasy side beyond just looking at some pretty minis occasionally.
Alessio offers himself out as a rules consultant to anyone who wants to hire him if I recall correctly, presumably the level of credit he's given is commensurate with the level of consulting he does on each rule book.
Alpharius wrote: I'll never forget or forgive Alessio for the abomination that was his Skaven Army Book in WFB!
Are you talking about the overall book or the abomination unit in that book? If the former, are you sure you're not a dwarf player instead holding that grudge? Just kidding... I have almost no idea with what happens over on the fantasy side beyond just looking at some pretty minis occasionally.
A little bit of both!
And yeah, I'm a big fan of Dwarves, and The Empire - so Skaven, yeah, not my favorite, and that is NOT based purely on a Fluff Basis!
That book was a nasty piece of work, and a lot of what was the problem SHOULD have been either 1) caught in playtesting by the author himself or 2) caught in playtesting by someone.
But, GW, you know.
From what I've read to date, who knows how well PB will no or take playtesting - but...
I'd point out that they said they recieved a bunch of 3d printing test models at once just prior to Christmas and they've been drip feeding them individually since. Posting pics of an FPA before pics of a Regult doesn't mean the former was worked on first. That said I agree (and even said exactly that earlier) that they should have been working on the supposed "wave 1" stuff first and ensuring that at least something made their deadlines of October-December. Their latest update is not good news but rather the best (assuming they don't miss that deadline yet again) of a bad situation that they're entirely to date responsible for.
I would agree with you, except they said they are awaiting the prints of the Veritechs...
Well, if you all would just stop moving your island continent around and pick a spot, it might be possible to mail you something without exorbitant fueling costs, hazard pay and supplies for the mule train. Training mules to swim in shark-infested waters is not cheap.
Azazelx wrote: I'm expecting that they ship a half dozen boxes to US backers before GenCon. They can then say they "started shipping", and then proceed to sell as much as they possibly can at Gencon. They then take a week off, resume shipping to US backers, and announce that due to the exorbitant USPS costs that they will not wave ship products to non-US backers due to the cost (see Reaper, Myth) and instead send it all to us in one big chunk "definitely before Christmas" which might then arrive by February 2015. Or June. After the US gets waves 2 & 3 sent individually, in any case...
Yes. It's important we pin them down on all this. While it doesn't stop them from doing it, it's nice to be able to rub it in the fanboys faces.
While it might make you feel better if/when that happens, you know the any True Fanboys will hand wave away whatever bad thing/delay might or might not happen anyway!
Cypher-xv wrote: Here's pics of the gencon minis with macross 1/250 fighters and two 1/285 scale Russian jets.
Are those the gashapon 1/250 series 1-4 stuff that came out a few years ago? I always considered getting a few of them but the presence of just fighter mode stopped me. They would have been irresistable if the sets had all 3. Even so, as one of the minority that likes Macross 2, it's my only way of getting a VF-2SS. Nice macross models in any case. Yours definitely don't have the same dirty pitting as mine.
Cypher-xv wrote: Here's pics of the gencon minis with macross 1/250 fighters and two 1/285 scale Russian jets.
Are those the gashapon 1/250 series 1-4 stuff that came out a few years ago? I always considered getting a few of them but the presence of just fighter mode stopped me. They would have been irresistable if the sets had all 3. Even so, as one of the minority that likes Macross 2, it's my only way of getting a VF-2SS. Nice macross models in any case. Yours definitely don't have the same dirty pitting as mine.
Yeah, mine are from the 1/250 fighter set. I'm in the minority too about enjoying M2. At least the valkyrie designs mainly. Got pics of yours?
I have to admit to being pretty underwhelmed with Macross II (as a big fan of DYRL). However, in the intervening years, it is definitely one of the superior sequels (especially after 7, Frontier, and Zero)
Cypher-xv wrote: Wait, are you being sarcastic or serious? If true that's a first.
I enjoy Plus quite a bit. But 7 was a struggle to get through - took about half the series before there were any interesting plotlines, Zero was interesting but felt entirely pointless, and Frontier was just straight up anime schlock that was obviously written to milk the Macross franchise for some toy/model kits licensing dollars. Macross II at least had an interesting vision of the post-DYRL future... 7 and Frontier are just, ugh. the Macross sequels over the years has made me like the Robotech storyline more and more, but makes me a little sad about the missed opportunity about how amazing a good Macross franchise would have been.
Cypher-xv wrote: For me it's the opposite effect.lol To this day DYRL still looks good.
Oh, perhaps you misunderstood me, I love DYRL! haha. i said, as a big fan of DYRL, i was "pretty underwhelmed with Macross II". since Macross II is a direct sequel to Macross DYRL...
and pretty disappointed in the sequels to the SDF Macross series (esp 7, Zero, Frontier)
Cypher-xv wrote: Wait, are you being sarcastic or serious? If true that's a first.
I enjoy Plus quite a bit. But 7 was a struggle to get through - took about half the series before there were any interesting plotlines, Zero was interesting but felt entirely pointless, and Frontier was just straight up anime schlock that was obviously written to milk the Macross franchise for some toy/model kits licensing dollars. Macross II at least had an interesting vision of the post-DYRL future... 7 and Frontier are just, ugh. the Macross sequels over the years has made me like the Robotech storyline more and more, but makes me a little sad about the missed opportunity about how amazing a good Macross franchise would have been.
I'm not quite sure how you can say that Macross Frontier was written to sell toys when all mecha anime are written to sell toys. It's like someone saying that transformers G1 was written with good plots in mind and not to sell toys...
Zero was super tree hugger and made no sense in the end. 7 was about a guy who was so obsessed with shoving his view down people's throats that people actually listened. LOL. I definitely agree with you on the meh that was Zero and 7. I haven't seen Macross 2 in a really long time so I can't comment on it.
I'm not quite sure how you can say that Macross Frontier was written to sell toys when all mecha anime are written to sell toys. It's like someone saying that transformers G1 was written with good plots in mind and not to sell toys...
Fair point. I guess my feeling is that SDF Macross felt like a plot first and a marketing tool second; Frontier felt like a marketing tool first and a plot as a distant afterthought.
Nice warboss. Now start painting. Right now I'm waiting on the clear gloss coat to dry so I can ink the panel lines. It's funny I told Forar I was 98% done until earlier today when I noticed I missed some details. At first I thought I was in over my head then I figured it out. Now I'm about 96 to 98% done.
I'm not quite sure how you can say that Macross Frontier was written to sell toys when all mecha anime are written to sell toys. It's like someone saying that transformers G1 was written with good plots in mind and not to sell toys...
Fair point. I guess my feeling is that SDF Macross felt like a plot first and a marketing tool second; Frontier felt like a marketing tool first and a plot as a distant afterthought.
Unfortunately both are a marketing tool in Japan. =(
I'm kinda surprised you don't like the show though considering how many nods it makes to the original SDF macross.
I've only ever played two Robotech video games. One was a surprisingly decent side scroller and top down view one on the GBA, and the other was Battlecry for the Gamecube, which I enjoyed immensely. Swapping forms never got old, though some of the levels were a bit obnoxious at times.
Forar wrote: I've only ever played two Robotech video games. One was a surprisingly decent side scroller and top down view one on the GBA, and the other was Battlecry for the Gamecube, which I enjoyed immensely. Swapping forms never got old, though some of the levels were a bit obnoxious at times.
Probably Battlecry. I tried replaying a few months back but it was an early "modern" console shooter and looking back now the controls were horrendous. On the xbox, the controller had two thumbsticks but you only used one for both movement and aiming.
I'm kinda surprised you don't like the show though considering how many nods it makes to the original SDF macross.
Nods are one thing, but if the series isn't good, it isn't good. I'm not really an anime fan. Well, let me qualify that - I like Miyazaki, Matsumoto... i like the original Gundam stuff, things like Votoms and SDF Macross, Emeraldas and Harlock... so I'm not really a modern anime fan. I like those other series and creators precisely because they aren't full of anime norms. Really annoying characters, ridiculous physics, modern anime nonsense. Frontier was full of it. I recently watched Attack on Titan because it was recommended to me - and it's fantastic, but merely because of the strength of the plot and the settings. It's good _despite_ it being anime - as it's full of annoying characters and ridiculous physics that are cringe-worthy and almost made me stop watching it on several occasions. Attack on Titan is able to get past it's own handicap of being anime, whereas Frontier does not. Like Miyazaki recently said - the problem with the anime industry is that it's full of anime fans... storytelling and character development take a backseat to the stereotyped tropes of the format. Frontier is a hollow shell of what it could have been and the "nods" to SDF Macross only made me, as a viewer, feel even more distanced and critical as it's nothing like the original. (this review very nearly mirrors my own opinions: http://www.anime-planet.com/reviews/a552.html)
Mike1975, I don't know if they addressed it in the preview documents but did autododge make it into the published preview rules? Some units like the FPA/QRAU have significant autododge bonuses that are a huge help in the RPG for survivability. Does that translate to the mins game either as a passive or active benefit? Would they get to dodge without a CP (the literal translation of the ability) or get a very high defense stat compared to Valkyries?
None of the units in the game have Auto-Dodge thankfully except some of the characters and it's limited to the first attack in a turn or something like that.
Hrmm... thanks. While I'm glad that the standard FPA doesn't get free dodges I'm curious to see then how the supposedly unparalleled agility of the FPA translates to the table top. Even a defense of 1 or 2 higher (or whatever the stat is called that you must get to "hit") higher than a valkyrie would be sufficient.
The FPA has a defense of 6 and a PIL of 3. So if and when it is hit it has a good chance to dodge the attack. Most units have a DF of 5, some fighters and some tougher units have a 6. Only a few have a 7 like the Monster and Glaug. Much of the stats are in the Tactical Briefing and remain largely unchanged.
Interesting... the glaug is more maneuverable (at least in terms of bobbing and weaving but obviously not straight up speed) than a Qrau. It's not how I would have done it (as I would have reversed it) but so be it. Thanks for the update. I do hope they preview all this stuff in the coming months.
@Cypher: The FPAs are on my hobby "to do" list as well. I've got a few more pressing mecha to do first for Heavy Gear but when we get a firm ship date (or literally that they're on the ship from China) that'll put a fire under my feet for sure. I just need to be inspired to start medium to large projects and I don't think I'll get that way with Robotech till closer to the release date whereas Heavy Gear has a new open alpha for the upcoming edition that just started as well as a faction I own getting some new rules.
To be honest, at this point, I'm thinking about asking for my money back. There are too many other projects that are actually realized that I'd rather throw my money at. Any thoughts on if that's even a possibility?
jacobus wrote: To be honest, at this point, I'm thinking about asking for my money back. There are too many other projects that are actually realized that I'd rather throw my money at. Any thoughts on if that's even a possibility?
jacobus wrote: To be honest, at this point, I'm thinking about asking for my money back. There are too many other projects that are actually realized that I'd rather throw my money at. Any thoughts on if that's even a possibility?
It's always a possibility but only Palladium can tell you if it's actually going to happen. I'd post in the comments that you'd like a refund as well as contact them via PMs. A little bit of public viewing will likely help your case rather than hinder it. I'm in it for the long term as a long time robotech nut but in a completely self serving way I support your asking publicly and privately for a refund. It shows palladium that some people aren't willing to wait till aliens actually invade the earth while Palladium takes their time to "ensure quality". A $$ incentive (or disincentive to delay) might be the kick in the pants that they need but don't want.
I'm considering it, still not sure if I want to do it or not. Robotech was my first experience with anime, and I loved it growing up (and still watch it sometimes), but practically, I'm not sure if I'd really play it. I've got bunches of miniatures hanging out waiting to be painted, and my favorite game ever, Warzone, is back. So I'm thinking my money might be better off someplace else. But I'm also worried I'll just end up buying it at a higher price later, too. Who knows.
I do appreciate the advice on how best to get them to notice, though.
Considering the massive discount we got off MSRP, even if you end up 'stuck' with your pledge, it shouldn't be terribly hard to get back at least your money's worth, if not more on the secondary market.
Not necessarily "Reaper Bones: Vampire doubling to tripling your money" type cash, but we paid like 1/3 MSRP, so even if you sell for half you're still making money and likely cheaper than most shops.
She looks like she'll fall apart as soon as someone breaths near it.
they are trying to peddle.
