Joyboozer wrote: So is the current theory that ND wrote a miniatures game, Kevin completely rewrote and and now been forced to realise he's made it unplayable?
That would, sadly, mesh with what I've heard from writers working for Palladium in the past. This seemed like a win-win for ND and PB: ND gets the funding and support for the work, PB gets the money, 'halo effect' sales for the RPG, everyone goes home happy.
Mike1975 wrote: Just to clarify for everyone I think it was back in September that I sent PB an email via the KS site. I offered to help keep people motivated and do what I can in exchange for the actual rules and being able to post pics of games that I'd play with brief descriptions. I attached links to the games that I had played so far as well as the rules that I had written up to date to the email. Later I added the Facebook page.
After ~6 weeks (Mid-November) I got an email from Jeff Burke telling me that they were interested in looking things and that they would get back to me. At this time there were rumors about the rules not being completely done so I just put myself on sit and wait mode as far as PB was concerned. I received another email a month later saying to expect a call from Kevin S. I spoke to him before Christmas and I will hopefully be receiving the NDA soon so that I can get a copy of the actual rules.
This is a two edged sword. I will have the actual rules, can mess with them and see what I think and make my opinions known to Jeff and the PB gang BUT I will no longer be able to openly share with you all that I know from the rules. So I'm hoping to get a good look and then work with PB and Jeff to "share' a few tidbits on the actual rules here and there. This sharing will be completely dependent on their OK so take that as you will.
Glad to hear that you get your wish and can work on the official version. I'm sad to hear though that it's still in flux 7 months later despite being 90% done in April and 98% done and in final something or other every month since. I have to warn you though that a peek behind the curtain is sometimes scary when you decide to playtest for a company in decline. Despite needing an obvious change, some people simply can't/won't accept the help if it conflicts with their own opinions (despite those viewpoints leading the company to the sorry state it is in). As you said, don't violate your NDA since you're dealing with a paranoid company and let them personally handle the dissemination of any info. It might be nice to chat with you here on dakka but frankly you should stop any commenting on the project once you get access to the rules. You don't want to be the next chapter in a PB drama episode.
From the rumors I've heard it sounds as if the rules are done. I just hope that all of the concerns that others have brought to my attention have been taken care of and if not I hope that I can help bring it to the right people's attention before things go to the printers.
Of course, they could be bringing you into the pool working on the Southern Cross (or another Work In Progress), errata (unfortunate, but wouldn't be surprising), the tournament rules or something else that was due out post-release anyway.
But at face value there's a lot that's still not adding up, and if we should be settling in for a long haul then it's probably not doing them any favours to keep us in the dark. If they don't even have a tentative date, they're not nearly as far along as they want us to think they are. If they're as far along as they've claimed (rules/book done, art done, sculpts done, test run by the end of the month) then barring some catastrophic issue (oh god, the battlepods are all one solid block of plastic! What did you doooooo?!) they really should have a factory slot lined up and at least a clue on the transportation side.
I'd ask that you double check the LOS rules as they're overly complicated but easily abusable (in true Palladium RPG fashion). Other personal bugbears are more close combat attack options in a shooting oriented anime/game than shooting ones for veritechs; you end up with scenarios like either you or someone from gencon where it was better for battlepods to surround and kick destroids to death rather than shoot them. IMHO close combat for all but dedicated CQB mecha should be a command point last resort only. No VF-1J options in the skirmish army format (assuming that still even exists post kickstarter and wasn't dropped) was also a bit worrisome. Some more lengthy thoughts from previous posts on it.
Spoiler:
I don't think the newly released "center" of model LOS will go over very well. They'll have to define it exactly on a picture both head on and profile as well as clarify what happens with normal modeling (like when using the flight bases they're providing). Also, completely blocked LOS denying shots for a Battlepod with a 1/3 of it's volume sticking above cover (using their examples on the white board) is a very bad idea and completely counter intuitive. I fear the influence of Palladium in this newest set of bad and unclear rules, much like with the pointless and cumbersome 5 close combat options on a Valkyrie.
I suspect as I said before that this is a nod to the game being the tabletop "version" of the RPG (as indicated by the clunky name... ROBOTECH Tactics would have been 100% better IMO). That kind of stuff would have been better in an RPG supplement to the tabletop game or a separate optional chapter rather than clogging up the datacard instead with almost never used close combat options. I can see a battlepod have 1-2 close combat attacks (kick and body block) and a veritech adding one more since it has arms but that would be my limit. Stuff like gladiators or Male power armor that are known for close combat deserve one to two max more but this will primarily be a ranged game. Other stuff like inability to dodge 4+ missiles (3.. no problem! 4... no chance!) taken straight over from the rpg (and from the ORIGINAL 1980's rpg text) is another one I noticed. Most other game companies with more modern rulesets/mindsets would have an increasing difficulty instead of just a random sheer cliff. Easily abusable yet needlessly complicated LOS rules are another head scratcher. No VF-1Js ever in the skirmish version of the army building rules... those are just a few that I hope are addressed.
Honestly, I was very pleasantly surprised that they didn't go with the frankenstein mess of d20 and percentile mechanics that the rpg uses and instead opted for d6's.
Oh, come now. The visible but invisible battlepods and valkyries crawling on their bellies broke the LOS rules in the game the day they were posted.
Nah. They've finally just finally got all the finally attention they finally craved and finally desired. It's finally driven them to finally branch out their finally brand products.
I actually suggested to pb in a phone convo that they read this thread rather than listening to all of the "oh more delays are ok go PBWE LOVE YOU!" on the KS commentary clearly their lack of useful info shows they don't care. In fact the rep I was speaking to said they weren't even aware of this thread.
Red_Starrise wrote: I actually suggested to pb in a phone convo that they read this thread rather than listening to all of the "oh more delays are ok go PBWE LOVE YOU!" on the KS commentary clearly their lack of useful info shows they don't care. In fact the rep I was speaking to said they weren't even aware of this thread.
Why would they be aware of this thread? It's a 40k forum mostly.lol Although I'm surprised their not since some backers have left links to this thread over on the RRTks. I agree tho I do appreciate their passion for gaming. Just wish the head cheese was more receptive to constructive criticism. Not all PB customers are 40+ year old versions of MTV groupies. I gave up on trying to reason with people who can't accept a companies problem and pretend that everything is ok. It's the equivalent of being in love with someone that doesn't love you back.
I'm just glad I never got into their other line of books because folks on their boards are asking/begging for new books that were promised what seems like eons ago. It's their equivalent of GW someday maybe releasing new sister models. I was checking out their store and found out that the books in the coming soon section have been there for years. Talk about trolling your fans. If or when they do check this thread out their in for a rude awakening which will probably cause them to take one look and leave under the assumption that it's an anti PB thread when it's not. But since many can't express their thoughts on the RRTks or the PB boards without getting dumped on we come here. Hopefully once whoever reads this thread gets over their shock, will see that there are valid concerns over the game rules and their inconsistency to get product out the door in a timely fashion.
NTRabbit wrote: An announcement that they're 98% sure they have a manufacturing slot all lined up and ready to go before Chinese New Years?
I'd ask then that they add a year to that update judging from the NG books. They were supposed to come out in late summer after their crowdfunding but they came out THE NEXT YEAR in late summer.
Stop saying 98%. We'er going to end up giving Forar liver problems.lol
When it comes to the factory that will make the minis I don't think PB/nd have much control over the day to day stuff that happens over there. So yeah maybe add a year to that 98% factory slot.
Mike seems to have more confidence in PB now since he knows thing the rest of us don't. If he's cool with the going ons at PB concerning RRT then I have to trust in his judgement. He's one of us after all.
New update is up on the KS. From the look and surface texture of the mini shown, it is a 3D printed test piece and NOT something made from a traditional plastic sprue type run. It looks like something you'd get from Shapeways. Either way, it's an actual update with more to follow so I'm not complaining.
As some of you may have heard, Ninja John sent us some prototype game pieces last week. They were a bit delayed by Christmas and FedEx being a bit overwhelmed, but they arrived on Friday and we've been putting them together since.
We intend to show you a new one of these prototypes every couple of days for the next week or two. Since we know we've not posted Updates quite as often as many of you would like, we’ll start things off with the mighty Glaug-Eldare!
You can click the images above to see larger versions. Happy New Year, everybody!
Man, if Palladium got in on and embraced the Jazz Handing, it'd make me laugh until I cried.
Both for the raw sorrow of the reference, and for them proving to at least have a sense of humour about things, unlike some of their most staunch defenders, a few of whom have taken the jazzhands as some sort of personal affront.
According to the comments, it is a 3D print, similar to the prototypes they showed off at Gencon.
I didn't get a booster sled, but a buddy of mine did, so he was happy to see something. They get a polite golf clap from me for tossing us a bone before the years end, however this quote;
Since we know we've not posted Updates quite as often as many of you would like
Um, guys, it's not a question of "as often as I'd like", it's a matter of "as often as you said you would". If weekly updates aren't sustainable, then toss us an update to say they'll be every 2 weeks, or whatever. I'll admit that going monthly would seem a bit strange considering how much, in theory, is supposed to be going on right now, but as I've said before, I'd even take those as long as they came to us with some real meat to them. Not this vague "everyone loves it" gak, but some hard "here's a big snippet of rules, here are a half dozen stat cards and a bunch of characters, a bunch of pictures, and some fluff to show that this is more than a mere cut and paste".
Also, if you look in the background, there's an Artillery Pod.
Edit 2: I should probably be glad they don't read this thread.
They'd probably put my order to the back of the queue.
Well, as of the Dec 19th update they're still copy pasting this;
Flexible Date of Release: An exact release date is yet to be determined, but it is looking like sometime in February, 2014.
However, the front page news paragraph changed to this a while back;
Barring any unexpected delays, the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ box game and initial expansion sets should go to manufacturing soon. An exact street date is unknown at this time and we’d rather not speculate.
So, basically; vOv
Paired with the fact that backers have been told repeatedly that we'd get our boxes before retail, and these are public statements (so not referencing just the KS), a February retail release is right out, and February backer boxes would take a miracle. The less optimistic among us are questioning 2014 entirely. The somewhat optimistic souls think they'll debut by Gencon (August/September retail launch) with backers getting boxes in the months leading up to that (June/July perhaps? 4 months to produce and ship everything to North America would still likely be an ambitious time frame, but not impossible).
Easy E wrote: So, not to be a noob; but what is the release date now?
I want to pick up the models, but didn't get in ont he kickstarter.
If they're just showing that prototype, that means they haven't actually printed a single thing (not even a master) in China, which means at best estimate it's still at least 3 months out.
I think Shapeways-quality prints are fine to show progress is occurring. Use the lower-quality/lower-cost prints as 'drafts' to get the posing and proportion of minis right, as well as to test with actual play pieces, if the rules are picky about this.
So Mike, are the preview pics the "decisions and details" you were hinting at or is there more to come?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Balance wrote: I think Shapeways-quality prints are fine to show progress is occurring. Use the lower-quality/lower-cost prints as 'drafts' to get the posing and proportion of minis right, as well as to test with actual play pieces, if the rules are picky about this.
At least they're showing something physical even if it's something we've seen before in a way. That is still an improvement but I would hope that they'd also post the full rules (either all at once or in chunks) to get corrections/FAQ/Errata before either printing (hopefully) or at least retail release.
Really dastardly would be the "Gencon Is Crazy Times And Basically Eats Up An Entire Quarter" defensive system.
Wyrd employs that one every year. It's a go to shield against criticism about anything at all, and fits solidly into place for July, August and September, if not longer.
Not to mention the "We're Just A Small Company" subsystem. Put into action together, these can placate an entire herd of fanboys on their own.
Hell, given a little push, the fanboys will occasionally use these on themselves.
Not to mention the "We're Just A Small Company" subsystem. Put into action together, these can placate an entire herd of fanboys on their own.
I'm sorry but the "They're only a couple of people" excuse is TM of Dream Pod 9 fanboys (but not the company themselves) for use with the Heavy Gear brand. It's how the ultra slow one physical paper product a year plan got slowed down to a 24 page simply formated pamphlet for a board game for 2013. 2014 is looking a bit better hopefully though.
Easy E wrote: So, not to be a noob; but what is the release date now?
I want to pick up the models, but didn't get in ont he kickstarter.
If they're just showing that prototype, that means they haven't actually printed a single thing (not even a master) in China, which means at best estimate it's still at least 3 months out.
They're certainly still tinkering with the models as from the update comments
Kendachi about 15 hours ago
It looks like the front "eye" has no detail at all. Just a circle on a flat spot. Thought there would be some more curvature there.
and the response is
Creator Palladium Books about 15 hours ago
@Kendachi: We noticed that, too. It's in my notes for the manufacturer. The prototype Glaug has the detail, so we should be able to get it on there.
quite where the 3D design work is being done ?
so while they may be milling the final 3D steel tools as individual sculpts are approved I have a horrible feeling that they'll want to wait and do it all at once which could cause more delays
Balance wrote: I think Shapeways-quality prints are fine to show progress is occurring. Use the lower-quality/lower-cost prints as 'drafts' to get the posing and proportion of minis right, as well as to test with actual play pieces, if the rules are picky about this.
Frankly if they wanna do my entire order up like this & send me the damned thing finally I'd be happy because at least I'd have something to show for my $ as opposed to propaganda.
You don't want their SW models. I have a two Russian jets in 1/285 and the tip of one fin has broken off and the missiles on the other have snapped off as well. I'd rather wait a bit longer for my models because plastic is so much better.
We’re getting there. Not as quickly as any of us would like, but things are getting done. We don’t have any new delivery estimates yet, but yeah, at this point February is looking pretty unlikely. We will keep you updated when we learn more.
Palladium has finally and publicly come to the realization that many of us made about the Feb date the day they posted it. That's still progress as now they're only 1-2 months behind common sense which is a great improvement over the 6 month developmental delay they exhibited with the "Hey, October!" update. I agree with Forar's comment that April 1st as the "new" shifting goalpost works on several levels (of comedy) but it may not be realistic either. Getting the models finally in backer hands (the ultimate milestone in my book) seems like a May thing assuming that nothing else goes wrong from now on.
For those interested in the full sarcasm free update along with the support pod pics, feel free to click below.
Yeah, the April 1st comment was purely for comedic sake. If they actually moved the project back just one month despite still not being ready for production yet, I'd probably laugh until I cried.
As I've been saying for a while now, my optimistic hope currently is Q2, with Q3 all the more likely, but with recognition that those who feel Q4/sometime in 2015 is more likely not being entirely pessimistic in their assertions either.
Basically, I remain minorly hopeful but am not holding my breath, nor would I put money down on it.
The guy pimping Palladium's grab bags as a possible source of Max/Miriya figures was worth a laugh though. Oh yeah, to thank PB for not giving me an opportunity to buy one during a convention (through the backer kit or online), I'll definitely have to reward them with another $50+ and a wishlist that'll consider of "Max and Miriya" and the hopes they might still have some around.
I just got home and found my grab bag. Wow! Out of the books that I asked for I was surprised I got the one item that was dead last on my 12+ list. There was a max figure in my box. I put it last on my list because I ran out of books that I wanted. Hell I didn't even expect to see it because I gave a long list of books I would have preferred instead. After all I have a lot of minis coming in. So on a lark I asked for Max an Miriya because outside of RT and dead reign and the phase world books, PB doesn't really have anything else that would interest me. It's a lot smaller than I expected.lol I'll try putting it together tommorow. I still didn't get the macross SB. That was second to the top of my list. So while I was pleasantly surprised. I was even more surprised I didn't get my top pick. So today when I saw the comment about ordering a grab bag to see if customers could get one, I laughed myself. Tho once I got home the joke was on me. I have one now so I might as well enjoy it till RRT finally ships out.
Congratulations on snagging a Max. Considering what they're going for on eBay, you essentially bought one of those and got the rest of the books/swag/etc for free.
Forar wrote: Congratulations on snagging a Max. Considering what they're going for on eBay, you essentially bought one of those and got the rest of the books/swag/etc for free.
Yeah, they seem to have paradoxically alot of the limited edition minis. I guess they made too many for a small con like the detroit one they went to... it sure would have been nice for them if they had instead sold them at $15 to the likely large portion of 5,000 dedicated robotech enthusiasts chomping at the bit to buy them... instead they made 200 or so IIRC for a convention that no one went to for Robotech or Palladium reasons. Don't get me wrong.. I'm glad that people are getting their minis (including myself) but the fact that they had so many leftovers that they made it to the *BOTTOM* of grab bag lists and still got fulfilled makes see that as justification that it was the WRONG idea.
I would be morbidly amused if the reason all the sculpts are suddenly showing up after long delays is because after they were delivered to Palladium in August, Siembieda decided they weren't good enough and from then until now and beyond has been sitting in his office with an Xacto knife "fixing" them to his liking and adding "DESIGNED BY KEVIN SIEMBIEDA" to the plastic slots.
I think it's more likely that he'll get the final rules and then heat up the stove and take out the glue pot to do some "editing". We'll end up with a hybrid d20 and percentile system with completely random rules like you can dodge 1, 2, or 3 missliles with no penalties but the 4th means you have no chance of avoiding any of them! Oh... crap.. we already have that one.
Ok I think I'm probably going to request a refund from PB or sell my pledge to someone else. There's other things I'd rather waste $ on. Frankly I feel like I was sold a movie, shown the first 5 pages of script and casting, and told that it just needed to be cleaned up but was ready to be shot. Then I find out that 5 pages was all that existed and by "talking to Brad Pitt" it meant they left him a voicemail and now that they got triple what they wanted to make the movie they've finally started writing more than that 5 pages but still have no cast lined up.
I have no love for PB but if anyone things that 95% of KS are going to be on time no matter what they say is foolish. Come on guys Its sucks big balls that's its not here and they should have said that out the gate but its how they do business. Its not honest and fair to the buyers, however it seems to be the norm. I said we would be our stuff in march/ april when it ended. Looks like I may be right. Seems par for the course with all the delays KS have. At least its not a coolmini product. Although it is getting to that point.
I said it would be an "Easter Gift" to me from the beginning.
I tried to promise myself not to get upset till then no-matter what they promise.
I will get the torch and pitchfork out around then and join the rest of you.
Got involved early enough to know how Kevin Works. Got to meet him face to face at Comicon North, pointed out the prior missed dates and told him my expectation for April and he said "highly unlikely". I thought he meant sooner... maybe it was later.
Half expecting them dropping the ball really bad and joining the infamous groups that have delivered nothing for over a year.
I DO agree with the split order scenario and them stupidly expecting their customers to pick up the cost, that is so their style (we are a poor small publisher after all).
There may be good odds of them needing to do a retail fill and thinking they already have their backer's money so the untapped funds get priority (faced this with pre-order with Chapters so good enough for them, good enough for PB).
They miss April I will not do a kickstarter with them again, I will wait for retail and probably get it sooner and in the end cheaper by missing all their extra expenses. Their problem is they would interpret it as a lack of interest in the product rather than wary of their methods.
griffen127 wrote: I have no love for PB but if anyone things that 95% of KS are going to be on time no matter what they say is foolish. Come on guys Its sucks big balls that's its not here and they should have said that out the gate but its how they do business. Its not honest and fair to the buyers, however it seems to be the norm. I said we would be our stuff in march/ april when it ended. Looks like I may be right. Seems par for the course with all the delays KS have. At least its not a coolmini product. Although it is getting to that point.
Man, you really beat the snot out of that strawman.
They created the project, and knew how far along they were, what was done, what needed work, and should at least have estimates on how long everything will take. It's on them to keep us informed, to let us know clearly what is being worked on, what is finished, and what snags might be holding things back.
Palladium's reputation of taking forever to release things was something that people were aware of and many backed despite what they knew. In part due to enthusiasm, in part due to Ninja Division talking a good talk during the campaign, among other reasons. This was their opportunity to change that reputation a bit, to show people they could be trusted with over a million dollars in advance money and to produce a quality miniature line in a timely fashion (on a timetable of their own settting).
They are the ones that set December as the target. They are the ones who doubled down on an early delivery long before they could've possibly known it might happen. They are the ones who have fallen back at least 2 months and will probably fall another 2-6+, depending on how pessimistic one is (or realistic, depending on ones perspective). They asked for money up front to finish something in 7 months when apparently they needed ~14.
If they'd just said a year in the first place we probably would've avoided a lot of (but not all) bitching and complaining. Might've even kept the funding numbers a bit lower, which would've made the project work more manageable, which probably would've been for the best all around.
I've seen bigger projects (in terms of backer numbers, funding, etc) deliver on time, and I've seen smaller ones fall far behind. Just because it's common doesn't make it right, or mean that people aren't allowed to be annoyed when a campaign fails in a similar fashion. Very few of us are surprised that it's delayed, but that doesn't mean we can't be disappointed all the same.
Talizvar wrote: I DO agree with the split order scenario and them stupidly expecting their customers to pick up the cost, that is so their style (we are a poor small publisher after all).
This would go over hilariously badly. After the pledge manager "shipping fix" (despite saying one could order multiple tiers without an increase in shipping during the campaign), asking for an extra dose of sweet, sweet shipping cash would cause comment rioting.
People have ventured that if they run into (further) massive delays, they could feasibly knock out one section (say just the base games), ship them, then do the rest and ship that.
Downside: it's expensive as frak and would be a massive manpower drain.
Upside: people actually start getting physical products before the game is half a year or more late.
The downside could potentially be offset if they required people to pitch in some extra cash to make it happen, but I imagine for many it'd be a hard sell.
That said, I'm gonna be honest here; if they said "look, toss us $20 and we'll eat the difference and ship you your base games in the next 2 months", I'd be tempted.
Though they'd probably still take 4 months minimum.
It'll never happen, but if we do get hit with another big (6 month'ish) delay, tossing in the YF-4s to the Battle Cry tier would go a long way towards assuaging some of my frustration.
But only until they tacked on a 7th month to cover making the YF-4s.
The issue is they are not being very good at throwing any form of "freebie" our way to keep the wolves at bay.
Information, shipping options, added product, historically they are used to holding out their hat for donations not sending anything out to the customer that is extra.
This is a case of "they are doing it again" and they have done nothing to act otherwise.
I have had SO many people try to tack-on extra expenses to shipping treating it like an expected form of extra payment after a transaction it makes my blood boil.
Forar: are you able to point out where it was promised that no extra charges would happen if we ordered more? The supplier quality management in me is wanting to light them on fire for promises broken (contrary to agreed contract)...
On the front page under the FAQ they mention that one can back for multiples of the same tier, but doesn't say anything about S&H.
Not terribly convincing.
So I looked further.
(Apparently the person who asked this question has changed their name from Sonia to Khain)
Kain on May 9, 2013 I kno the questions about pledges are boring But im wondering,if i want everything 3times can i pledge for sd and bc or is only one base possible 2times international shipping??
Creator Palladium Books on May 9, 2013 @Sonia Yes you can. Pledge the amount for needed to cover all three + showdown's shipping cost. Choose showdown as the pledge you want. At the end we will send you the Kickstarter Survey and a Pledge Manager that you will use to tell us any additional add-ons you want (including pledges). –Pledge Ninja
So during the campaign, it was just a matter of choosing the highest of the shipping costs. Then after the campaign had ended;
@Eddie - We noticed yesterday that the standard international shipping charge for the Reward Levels had been left off the Add-On versions of them, so those were added in to match the Reward Level versions. Sorry, just trying to cover part of the extra cost of international shipping.
So they re-ran the numbers and somebody presumably noticed that they were going to be sending like 20 boxes to one guy in the US for free, and at least 8 boxes to some Canadian jerk for only $50, and were all "woah woah woah, someone's gotta pay for these things... so about them Canadians..." and suddenly it went from "oh, just the highest" to "each tier!" which led to some serious wonkiness, where it cost more to ship 3 Battle Cry boxes than 4 (BC S&H was $30, SD S&H was $50, Reckless is also $50, so 3 boxes was $80 to ship, but 4 boxes was only $50... *facepalm*).
Forar wrote: where it cost more to ship 3 Battle Cry boxes than 4 (BC S&H was $30, SD S&H was $50, Reckless is also $50, so 3 boxes was $80 to ship, but 4 boxes was only $50... *facepalm*).
Since I only lurk in this thread because of my interest in the BattleTech Unseen (and ultimately passed on the KS due to PB's reputation)...is it crass of me to come in and say "Well obviously they could dodge giving the consumer a break on up to three S&H missiles, but couldn't dodge the 4th?"
I agree with some of the stuff they've said. I have also agreed with the stuff the non defenders have said. In fact I've been critical of PB since they let October/November slip. As to the comment about the great quality of PB products I had to laugh at that one. Yes the covers to some of their books is great but once you open the book and look at the interior art... Well that's a different matter entirely. A lot of it looks very ameturish. I swear it's like PB hired art school rejects that weren't good enough for an art scholarship. This isn't true of all of them but now I see what Forar was talking about, when it comes to PB's "artist".
It's sad really when I see the zealotry of the fandom. It's too many of those guys that keep the community from growing. Instead to me, these guys want to live in nostalgia and pretend their back in their teens when most of them (like me) were socialy awkward. Yes I've waited since the 80's for this game and yes many of us are patient when it comes to the release of RRT. But to continually act like there's nothing wrong with way PB has handled the ks since it ended is silly. Could some of us learn to be more patient? Yes. Could the white knights be less zealous? Heck yes!
And yeah, speaking of the white knights, I really should stop engaging that one guy.
He has flat out admitted he thinks Palladium's rpg systems are flawless, and sees any statements indicating that people have issues with it as some sort of personal affront.
Kickstarter needs many things, but first and foremost, I would absolutely love an ignore feature.
Forar wrote: And yeah, speaking of the white knights, I really should stop engaging that one guy.
He has flat out admitted he thinks Palladium's rpg systems are flawless, and sees any statements indicating that people have issues with it as some sort of personal affront.
Kickstarter needs many things, but first and foremost, I would absolutely love an ignore feature.
Forar wrote: And yeah, speaking of the white knights, I really should stop engaging that one guy.
He has flat out admitted he thinks Palladium's rpg systems are flawless, and sees any statements indicating that people have issues with it as some sort of personal affront.
Kickstarter needs many things, but first and foremost, I would absolutely love an ignore feature.
Forar wrote: And yeah, speaking of the white knights, I really should stop engaging that one guy.
He has flat out admitted he thinks Palladium's rpg systems are flawless, and sees any statements indicating that people have issues with it as some sort of personal affront.
Kickstarter needs many things, but first and foremost, I would absolutely love an ignore feature.
Like the one palladium has? It's custom!
Have an exalt, that's comedy gold!
So after reading through the messages the situation now appears to be that if it hadn't been for Forar the project would have been delivered on time?
Forar wrote: So after reading through the messages the situation now appears to be that if it hadn't been for Forar the project would have been delivered on time?
Apperantly he wasn't 98% excited so the white knights are throwing him under the bus for PB being late. But at least PB will put out a superior product because the defenders say so. According to them PB will not allow a subpar product bear the PB name.
I'm reading the RPG rules and there's a 98% that your character will pass an action roll. That's it! I figured out the mystery of where the 98% came from! Mystery solved.
Ugh, don't remind me of the Palladium skill system. What a congealed mess that thing is...
That said, yes, it is definitely my fault that Palladium's updates are generally missing or weak sauce, and that the project is rapidly drifting overdue.
Forar wrote: Ugh, don't remind me of the Palladium skill system. What a congealed mess that thing is...
That said, yes, it is definitely my fault that Palladium's updates are generally missing or weak sauce, and that the project is rapidly drifting overdue.
I thought they would've found me out sooner.
Lol, I'm reacquainting myself with the RPG since Christmas and it is a mess. I had the Robotech rpg books when they were rereleased but sold the horrid little manga format books and rebought a few of the bigger normal sized ones. It's been 5 years since I read one (although I did crack open the macross one to look at the pictures during the kickstarter before selling them) and there are a ton of issues. A quick roll character generation system that spends half its time on your character's world view but leaves out any semblance of tallying up bonuses, stats or skills... You don't need the former to play but you do need the later as a new player sitting down late to a game. Anyone can come up with their character's personality on the fly but not their abilities if new to the game. The original dodge/strike system has alot of poorly thought out layers added onto it that accomplish next to nothing other than increasing the complexity and you have to play "Where's waldo" to find out which apply in each circumstance because the restrictions are only mentioned usually a single time in the entire book in different chapters. I guess making a table that isn't cut and pasted from 1980's books is beyond palladium's digital formatting ability. Uggh... Sorry... I've been trying to make sense of the RPG rules over the weekend and I've come to the conclusion that it's not much harder to just convert everything to a system that mechanically works than to try and make sense of what they published.
Palladium would have had tons of new sales had they just converted to D20. It wouldn't be that hard of a conversion, either. But I'm only a consumer, so what do I know? Other than what I would actually buy I guess.
Oh man. There's a sticky on the PB forums that very clearly states "No D20 For Palladium".
It dates back to 2007.
Guys, I think you can prune that one. Aside from one topic asking about it, it's a fairly dead issue. That battle was fought over half a decade ago, and while variations on D20 are still popular, I really doubt there are piles of potential fans clamoring for it.
That might be the ultimate reason; even if it would boost sales, there are no guarantees that the actual purchases would outweigh the costs in terms of time, money and manpower.
I mean, let's be real, they barely release books for their system as it is. The potential years that would be spent writing, playtesting (yes, yes, I know) and revising even a D20 conversion book or three would kill what little progress they've been making on actually putting out products.
Then again, there are those guys who take pride in buying 2-8+ of each book (hardcovers, variant covers, signed copies, it's like they collect comics, but each comic costs $20-30).
Have to wonder if their RPG division is being artificially kept alive by the efforts of a small group of people with a remarkably odd use for their discretionary income.
Ideally the base rules. My friends aren't particularly favourable towards house rules, so I'm sincerely hoping they managed to make a system that's at the very least somewhat balanced and fun to play. Really don't want to have to patch up one of their giant messes.
Failing that, I'm half tempted to modify X-Wing, but obviously the movement system would leave a lot to be desired (what with fielding possibly dozens of figures per side).
Probably glance at Mike's too, if all else fails.
It's sort of weird not having him around, posting on a half dozen places to check out his stuff on a half dozen other places.
I'll give the by boom rules a fair shake. But I've actually been debating about a conversion to Force on Force/Tomorrow's War (even though that would somewhat limit the battle size).
I don't think X-Wing is a good fit, either. I've been keeping my eyes open but so far I haven't thought of anything that is clicks.
It is (been there, converted that) in theory but it's only for small model count games just like x-wing (no more than 6 models per side) and it's only good for space battles. I fully admit though that I haven't found a guinea pig yet to try them out in practice but my stat conversions aren't anything way out of the ordinary to begin with so it shouldn't play much different than traditional x-wing except for battloid veritechs.
There also is the older Dream Pod 9 Jovian Chronicles and larger scale Lightning Strikes rules for space mecha combat but if you don't like Heavy Gear mechanics (they do have their own pitfalls) then you won't like the derivative Jovian Chronicles ones either. In any case, you'd have to make up the stats for both as they don't have a vehicle construction system like in the Heavy Gear RPG.
Forar wrote: Lol, I'm reacquainting myself with the RPG since Christmas and it is a mess. I had the Robotech rpg books when they were rereleased but sold the horrid little manga format books and rebought a few of the bigger normal sized ones. It's been 5 years since I read one (although I did crack open the macross one to look at the pictures during the kickstarter before selling them) and there are a ton of issues. A quick roll character generation system that spends half its time on your character's world view but leaves out any semblance of tallying up bonuses, stats or skills... You don't need the former to play but you do need the later as a new player sitting down late to a game. Anyone can come up with their character's personality on the fly but not their abilities if new to the game. The original dodge/strike system has alot of poorly thought out layers added onto it that accomplish next to nothing other than increasing the complexity and you have to play "Where's waldo" to find out which apply in each circumstance because the restrictions are only mentioned usually a single time in the entire book in different chapters. I guess making a table that isn't cut and pasted from 1980's books is beyond palladium's digital formatting ability. Uggh... Sorry... I've been trying to make sense of the RPG rules over the weekend and I've come to the conclusion that it's not much harder to just convert everything to a system that mechanically works than to try and make sense of what they published.
I've been doing the same thing myself. I thought why can't the rules be more organized. I haven't gone far enough into the book where I encounter the silly dodge rules yet. This is my first time looking at a PB book since 1993. I'm used to the d10 system pioneered by FFG with their 40kRPGs. I'm also used to the neat orderly way the rules are presented. But this looks like a mess. Maybe once I've read more of the book it'll make more sense. Someone mentioned that the rules look like a term paper turned in at the last minute with little research done. I can see where one would get that idea from.
Lol, the quote function is off in that (as well as the previous message you posted). No big deal but it seems you attribute everything to me both times!
warboss wrote: There also is the older Dream Pod 9 Jovian Chronicles and larger scale Lightning Strikes rules for space mecha combat but if you don't like Heavy Gear mechanics (they do have their own pitfalls) then you won't like the derivative Jovian Chronicles ones either. In any case, you'd have to make up the stats for both as they don't have a vehicle construction system like in the Heavy Gear RPG.
To be pedantic, Jovian Chronicles does have vehicle creation rules. Inf act,t hey're a little broader than the Heavy Gear rules as they include creation of weapons as subsystems. The JC Companion has a lot of guidelines for 'cool stuff' like adding FTL drives, creating transforming/combining vehicles, biotech vehicles, etc... The bad side is it's really meant for an RPG as the tactical rules are at least as 'heavy' as Battletech, and not as fast-moving as I think the Robotech setting deserves.
Lighting strike doesn't have design rules. It looks like a neat ruleset (I've never played) but heavily focused on space-based combat, albeit in a Gundam-esque setting where a mecha can gut a capitol ship (or so I've heard).
If I had a bunch of nicely painted RT minis around and was looking for a system, I might see if I could hack something out of Savage Worlds, althoguh i don't know if it has any specific mecha/advanced vehicle rules.
Cypher-xv wrote: I've been doing the same thing myself. I thought why can't the rules be more organized. I haven't gone far enough into the book where I encounter the silly dodge rules yet. This is my first time looking at a PB book since 1993. I'm used to the d10 system pioneered by FFG with their 40kRPGs. I'm also used to the neat orderly way the rules are presented. But this looks like a mess. Maybe once I've read more of the book it'll make more sense.
No..no it won't. It'll just keep getting worse like some Inception RPG infinite loop of random and frequently contradictory complexity. As forar point out (no, not Jazz Hands!TM), complexity is not depth. X-wing has alot of the latter but only moderate amounts of the former IMO. Palladium cranks up the complexity to 11 but completely derps on organization, clarity, and logic.
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Balance wrote: To be pedantic, Jovian Chronicles does have vehicle creation rules. Inf act,t hey're a little broader than the Heavy Gear rules as they include creation of weapons as subsystems. The JC Companion has a lot of guidelines for 'cool stuff' like adding FTL drives, creating transforming/combining vehicles, biotech vehicles, etc... The bad side is it's really meant for an RPG as the tactical rules are at least as 'heavy' as Battletech, and not as fast-moving as I think the Robotech setting deserves.
Lighting strike doesn't have design rules. It looks like a neat ruleset (I've never played) but heavily focused on space-based combat, albeit in a Gundam-esque setting where a mecha can gut a capitol ship (or so I've heard).
If I had a bunch of nicely painted RT minis around and was looking for a system, I might see if I could hack something out of Savage Worlds, althoguh i don't know if it has any specific mecha/advanced vehicle rules.
Does the Jovian Chronicles core set have a VCS type system to design mechs from the ground up? I don't recall that but I admit it's been a while since I owned them (still have Lightning strike 2e and some expansions to JC but sold off most of them years ago). If so, is it in the core book or one of the expansions?
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Balance wrote: Aren't the FFG40k games generally considered d100 based (albeit, usually determined by rolling two different d10s?)
I've always classified it as a percentile (i.e. d100) system but I can see why he'd call it a d10. I agree though that a d100 classification is more correct though.
Mike, I suspect people are looking for a backup ruleset to convert Robotech to not how to convert stuff into Palladium rules. Either one will likely get you bullied by Palladium with a C&D letter if posted.
Does the Jovian Chronicles core set have a VCS type system to design mechs from the ground up? I don't recall that but I admit it's been a while since I owned them (still have Lightning strike 2e and some expansions to JC but sold off most of them years ago). If so, is it in the core book or one of the expansions?
It does, but I can't remember what book it is in. Might be in the 1st Silhouette edition main book, might have been in the Companion (that had some add-ons). I remember it being described as basically the HG 1st Edition VCS + a lot of bug-fixes, with the aforementioned weapons creation rules (To elaborate from above: instead of picking from "Heavy Machine Gun", 'Light Grenade launcher", Etc. in this version you can set a weapons range brackets, damage, special traits, etc.).
warboss wrote: Mike, I suspect people are looking for a backup ruleset to convert Robotech to not how to convert stuff into Palladium rules. Either one will likely get you bullied by Palladium with a C&D letter if posted.
I think I have got that covered. We can post conversions for free unless Wizkids has a fit and since this might help them with their sales and with their track record I don't see it as a big risk.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The new Mekton rules might be an option when they come out.
warboss wrote: Mike, I suspect people are looking for a backup ruleset to convert Robotech to not how to convert stuff into Palladium rules. Either one will likely get you bullied by Palladium with a C&D letter if posted.
I think I have got that covered. We can post conversions for free unless Wizkids has a fit and since this might help them with their sales and with their track record I don't see it as a big risk.
You should read the Palladium site rules. They claim you're not allowed to convert stuff into nor out of games they make. You're only allowed to create on your own derivative works for their worlds. Anything more and they will send you a demand as they have done many times in the past regardless of who owns what. Their legal viewpoint is not shared with the rest of the gaming industry or community.
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Balance wrote: It does, but I can't remember what book it is in. Might be in the 1st Silhouette edition main book, might have been in the Companion (that had some add-ons). I remember it being described as basically the HG 1st Edition VCS + a lot of bug-fixes, with the aforementioned weapons creation rules (To elaborate from above: instead of picking from "Heavy Machine Gun", 'Light Grenade launcher", Etc. in this version you can set a weapons range brackets, damage, special traits, etc.).
Interesting... if you find out where that is, please post it as I'd be interested in picking up a copy of it. edit: found it with some google fu.
warboss wrote: Lol, the quote function is off in that (as well as the previous message you posted). No big deal but it seems you attribute everything to me both times!
For some reason it keeps doing that. I'm not trying to post it's you saying it. I was trying to get my point across too. Guess I'm a bit off too.lol When I read your post I could relate to what your going thru as far as reading the rules
No worries, no offense taken. I just thought it was funny that it was me twice in a row. I posted a question thread over on the Palladium forums about the confusing rules so we'll see if any of the talking heads there that think the rules are just fine and clear and dandy as is (like Akashic) can help with examples from within Robotech. You shouldn't have to refer to an unrelated product line to figure out how to correctly use your existing product.
Funny you mention akashic. There's a group of folks who are boycotting anything he writes because of his supposed agreement of some of the WBC teachings. I have no idea if it's true or not but that's the rumour. Allegedly. Also he verbally beats up on posters who don't agree that the PB system is without flaws then claims to be a victim when challenged by said posters. Allegedly. I don't know if there is any truth to it but there's even a FB page about boycotting anything written by him. Amazing what one can learn from hanging out on the PB forums for a minute.lol
Cypher-xv wrote:Funny you mention akashic. There's a group of folks who are boycotting anything he writes because of his supposed agreement of some of the WBC teachings. I have no idea if it's true or not but that's the rumour. Allegedly. Also he verbally beats up on posters who don't agree that the PB system is without flaws then claims to be a victim when challenged by said posters. Allegedly. I don't know if there is any truth to it but there's even a FB page about boycotting anything written by him. Amazing what one can learn from hanging out on the PB forums for a minute.lol
Yeah, I've seen him go off on rants about worldwide conspiracies against him and how he's retained the services of Heuy, Dewey, and Louie ESQ or somesuch to combat this international libel. His impenetrable faith in Emperor Kevin would make a 40k Sister of Battle blush so I figured he would be one of the folks who would jump at the opportunity to make sense of the combat rules in Robotech.
Alpharius wrote:The PB Forums certainly sound like an...interesting place!
I've found that games well past their prime (which unfortunately seems to be my particular hobby niche) engender a very offense is the best defense attitude amongst the ever smaller fanbase. The guy we're talking about has been suspended multiple times by mods for blatant trolling/flaming but always has his suspension overturned by the company head who he is so devoted to. He's also a prospective freelancer which is why I suppose people have in their sigs that they'd boycott any books he touches. Eh, I don't buy any books in lines he works on (my only palladium book purchase from the last few years are robotech and in the past decade prior to that "revised" or redone versions of old books) and I don't log in there very frequently so it's not worth finding out the full story about the consipiracy.
Cypher-xv wrote: Forar might know the story. At least 98% of it anyways.
Can't say I do. Thing is, I used to be a fairly prolific poster in the early days of their forums, maybe a decade and a half ago or so, but when my group moved from Rifts to D&D 3E I eventually stopped visiting the PB forums entirely, only returning earlier this year when I heard about the miniatures game. There's a "where are they now" thread that explained where many of the old names I was accustomed to seeing had gone, but there are only a handful of people who post there that I recognize, and even fewer yet that recognize me. They changed forum software at some point in the last decade, so my old profile wasn't even around anymore (though I probably couldn't recall the password, and doubt I have access to the email it would've been associated with anyway).
But the more things change, the more they stay the same. It was like coming home again to find that they had dozens of books 'in the works' but only released a few recently. To see books they'd been touting as 'coming soon' years and years ago to have only just been released in the not too distant past. Was unfortunate to hear about the "crisis of treachery" (oh gods the melodrama...), of Kevin's divorce and whatnot, but at the same time realize that they had dirty laundry just hanging in the breeze all over the forums. They have threads sticky'd that refer to sales that ended literally years ago, and as the fanbase seems to have shrunk and become more insular, it's made them all the more testy and zealous. As noted before, there's one dude who seems like a generally okay guy, but takes pride in owning 8 copies of one book. Apparently has pretty much everything in duplicate and triplicate, if not more. Plans to snag at least 2 of the Heroes Unlimited anniversary hardcovers they're thinking of releasing. That's not a healthy stance for most people to take.
It's a bit too simplified for my tastes with the "one damage to rule them all" per band for each mech instead of individual weapons. I do admit though that if you're planning to play Reckless sized games with all the figs at once that will likely be the best choice.
personally plan on converting Battletech to Tactics. Rules are pretty solid but I have been using my extrapolation of the released KS materials released so far.
Does the NDA you signed allow you to say anything? As in, have you played a game with the RRT rules yet?
Not whether or not they're good, or fun, or anything. Just a simple yes/no as to if you have the RRT rules and if you've played a game with them or not, if you're allowed to say.
.... also, blink once if you're okay and twice if they're holding your family hostage.
Don't forget that the conversation I had was on Christmas week and with new years and all..... I have emailed PB and am expecting something on or before this weekend and that may only include the NDA. I have no idea.
So in short I have not even seen the official rules at this time. Once I do I will play a few games and post pics and an AAR.
It's cool, just thought I'd make it clear I wasn't looking for you to jeopardize your inclusion off the hop.
Due to a jerk stirring up some gak on another forum I got booted from a beta test despite having nothing to do with him (but apparently was located in the same province or some crap), so I'd hate to see it happen to someone else.
Tron minis could be fun but there is only really one side unless you figure out how to allow the bikes to take out Recognizers and Tanks. The only other option is a disc battle game and that would be really limited.
Mike1975 wrote: personally plan on converting Battletech to Tactics. Rules are pretty solid but I have been using my extrapolation of the released KS materials released so far.
As previously stated.. be careful. This is the kind of reception you should be prepared for both from Palladium and some of the "fans"...
PB Fanboy Poster wrote:Am I a mod or administrator of the boards? No. Do I have the power to slap hands and say "bad boy!" out here? Maybe. Do I have the right to help protect PB and the other members out here who follow the rules? Absolutely.
And then reading Kevin's "legal analysis" blaming his policy on hypothetical lawsuits against him ...
While I've heard about some of the requirements for those with intellectual property to aggressively defend their trademarks/copyrights/etc, this seems to go a little above and beyond.
Sure, they noted that it was against the rules and locked the thread.
Coming back a day later to throw down the "oh btw Palladium's staff have been told" comes across as laying it out a little too thickly.
The last comment was pedantic. So there. It was if the poster was trying to scare the OP. If this is a typical example no wonder the fan base is not larger than it is.
Hard to say. Palladium has a reputation for following that 'aggressively defending' part. Whether it's people making mountains out of molehills or an actual litigious nature, I haven't been watching enough over the years to really say.
Also, it felt right to make sure my 1000th post was in this thread. Let's see that title change!
Tomahawk pilot? I'll take it. Gotta get out of this skirt and into proper piloting gear!
Forar wrote: Hard to say. Palladium has a reputation for following that 'aggressively defending' part. Whether it's people making mountains out of molehills or an actual litigious nature, I haven't been watching enough over the years to really say.
Also, it felt right to make sure my 1000th post was in this thread. Let's see that title change!
Tomahawk pilot? I'll take it. Gotta get out of this skirt and into proper piloting gear!
The skirt was always optional as there was the unpublished option of dress slacks as well. Now get to the flight deck! Your big (death) scene is coming up! You don't want to miss your 5 seconds or airtime, do you? We both graduated from the bridge now. I'm a bit hesitant about posting as I like my current rank and the two of the next three are the joking humorous ranks.
Seems like they're still working on the rulebook (assuming that there is one paper book in the boxed set). So this means that when they're done finishing it then it'll have to be sent of to HG for approval adding yet another couple of weeks prior to actually printing it.
I let Jeff work at home (he’s creating the Robotech® RPG Tactics mecha color guide), and I’m happy my drive is only a few miles to the Palladium offices.
Remind me again.. did they say 98% of the work was done or to be done? They were still working on the datacards, rulebook, and sculpts more than 6 months post kickstarter... what exactly was included in that 98% as I frankly can't find anything other than the box cover and dice that may be left. I hope that the supposed mega update isn't just a list of RPG books that they'll never actually publish but slated for this year and instead includes alot of info on Robotech.
'The Faithful' who believe that only the core box was 98% done might've been onto something.
Of course, that'd be another lie (at least, by omission) to be laid on the campaign's doorstep, as there is a rather massive difference between "we're almost ready to go" and "we're almost ready to go for the base box, but after we add another two dozen figures, tokens, bases and whatnot to the project, we're more like 20% done".
But hey, the murmur indicates "big news (tm)" coming soon!
However, all joking aside, odds of it actually being "big news (tm)" is admittedly pretty low.
Not that I dare say as much in the comments. That gakstorm finally settled down and they'd probably start sizing me up for a noose again if I did anything but politely ponder aloud without offending anyones delicate sensibilities. >.>
Edit: don't get me wrong. This isn't some "omg they are the dumb" snark behind anyone's back. Just saying. That swarm finally got settled. No point stirring it up over nothing, especially if we maybe might kinda have something to chat about.
Forar wrote: 'The Faithful' who believe that only the core box was 98% done might've been onto something.
Considering that they were still tweaking the datacards for core box set stuff like Destroids and Regult squadrons over the past few months as well as tweaking and submitting sculpts for the same... and that they have been and possibly still are working on the rulebook... that still leaves the core box excluded. I know I'm preaching to the choir but that's a red herring that the updates since May simply don't support. Good or bad, I do hope there is alot of Robotech Tactics news in this supposedly epic update. I do agree that you might be better off staying away from the comments for a couple days as the fanbois have their Kevin S autographed panties in a bunch. I just keep telling myself that it's not massively delayed... yet.
What gets me is the statements that make me question earlier statements. Working on a color guide? Wouldn't that be part of the rules... that are done and approved? Huh.
3 updates in three days? Wow, showing... three bits. The add on bits to make pods arty pods. Already seen a Glaug Eldare at GenCon that looked way better. I know if this was the comments section I'd be hearing the guillotine blade rising already.
So if there's no Robotech info in the update tommorow or the KS update whenever... old smoke and mirrors is old.
Kendachi wrote: What gets me is the statements that make me question earlier statements. Working on a color guide? Wouldn't that be part of the rules... that are done and approved? Huh.
3 updates in three days? Wow, showing... three bits. The add on bits to make pods arty pods. Already seen a Glaug Eldare at GenCon that looked way better. I know if this was the comments section I'd be hearing the guillotine blade rising already.
So if there's no Robotech info in the update tommorow or the KS update whenever... old smoke and mirrors is old.
No, painting guides would not be considered part of the rules, especially by someone who is not a mini gamer historically. Gotta keep things in perspective.
Kendachi wrote: 3 updates in three days? Wow, showing... three bits. The add on bits to make pods arty pods. Already seen a Glaug Eldare at GenCon that looked way better.
Wayne from Palladium commented when I mentioned this as well. Apparently the difference is that instead of just being 3D printed entirely from the digital sculpt, it's made using pieces 3D printed from the sprue layout, so it more accurately represents what the final piece will look like after being built.
Which I guess is sensible. Not a huge thing, but it's a thing at least.
I believe the artillery pods may be the same deal.
Mike1975 wrote: personally plan on converting Battletech to Tactics. Rules are pretty solid but I have been using my extrapolation of the released KS materials released so far.
As previously stated.. be careful. This is the kind of reception you should be prepared for both from Palladium and some of the "fans"...
http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=119607 Only with Palladium do you have to worry about a network of informants reporting back your every move just like in the former Eastern Bloc.
Bit late to the party on this but what were they thinking with "Heroes Unlimited"?
To think we get that book for all their neat new ideas for heroes, they are kidding themselves.
If a "conversion" is not specifically named there is no harm done.
The entire purpose of the "Rifts" idea is that ANY universe of any kind you can think of or want to copy can be done.
Seems very much like shooting yourself in the foot.
It was the #1 reason way back when to get their stuff: so I could take any character and get it to rub elbows with any other type.
Heck, I wrote up a whole bunch of base character sheets for 40k.
Makes me think "turning my back" to them a couple decades ago was the right thing.
Well, obviously a ton of people were going to recreate Wolverine and Batman and whatnot. The key issue is the difference between doing so in the privacy of ones home, and doing so on the internet where someone's legal department might stumble across it and have to send a "Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to dooooo!' note.
Sure, it'd be nice if people came up with their own character concepts, but given how many thousands of heroes/villains have already been created, the likelihood of doing something utterly new is pretty remote.
Personally I think it's a good idea to have at least some kind of inspiration for a character. Not a blatant ripoff (unless that's the concept for the quest or campaign, obviously), but a starting point. But I've known some people who could barely be bothered to name their characters, let alone weave a non-cliche backstory for them, so there may be a little bias seeping in there.
Kevin is a control freak judging from prior history, with all the positive and negative baggage that implies.
It is simply easier that if it was not written down in their media, it is not to exist.
It will be interesting how derived works from their RPG into Tactics from the fan base will be viewed as pointed out.
I suspect Kevin will be torn, it will be based on "his" work but not executed by him and if any "guessing" or creative application is done, he will be more likely to ban it.
Kendachi wrote: What gets me is the statements that make me question earlier statements. Working on a color guide? Wouldn't that be part of the rules... that are done and approved? Huh.
No, painting guides would not be considered part of the rules, especially by someone who is not a mini gamer historically. Gotta keep things in perspective.
But they're historically included in the rulebook which is why I made the comment and likely Kendachi did as well. The rulebook likely now needs to be approved again resulting in further delays. I can't speak for Kendachi but when they tell me that the rules are done and approved that means not just the mechanics but also the physical layout of the book which would include all the pages (including painting guides which I assumed they were done with after announcing the poorly executed Design the Ace contest whose results would be a part of that section).
Kendachi wrote: What gets me is the statements that make me question earlier statements. Working on a color guide? Wouldn't that be part of the rules... that are done and approved? Huh.
No, painting guides would not be considered part of the rules, especially by someone who is not a mini gamer historically. Gotta keep things in perspective.
But they're historically included in the rulebook which is why I made the comment and likely Kendachi did as well. The rulebook likely now needs to be approved again resulting in further delays. I can't speak for Kendachi but when they tell me that the rules are done and approved that means not just the mechanics but also the physical layout of the book which would include all the pages (including painting guides which I assumed they were done with after announcing the poorly executed Design the Ace contest whose results would be a part of that section).
Yes, that's exactly it, thanks warboss. When I bought my $89 copy of 40k the painting guide is in the rule book.
But, sure, what if it isn't? Has this "painting guide" been approved or is it still not even sent to be approved? I mean, with the fact that the miniatures ARE NOT IN PRODUCTION 7 months later I'm sure that this painting guide isn't the big speed bump that's holding up delivery.
It's just another thing that makes me go "WTF?" when I read it.
Kendachi wrote: What gets me is the statements that make me question earlier statements. Working on a color guide? Wouldn't that be part of the rules... that are done and approved? Huh.
No, painting guides would not be considered part of the rules, especially by someone who is not a mini gamer historically. Gotta keep things in perspective.
But they're historically included in the rulebook which is why I made the comment and likely Kendachi did as well. The rulebook likely now needs to be approved again resulting in further delays. I can't speak for Kendachi but when they tell me that the rules are done and approved that means not just the mechanics but also the physical layout of the book which would include all the pages (including painting guides which I assumed they were done with after announcing the poorly executed Design the Ace contest whose results would be a part of that section).
Yes, that's exactly it, thanks warboss. When I bought my $89 copy of 40k the painting guide is in the rule book.
But, sure, what if it isn't? Has this "painting guide" been approved or is it still not even sent to be approved? I mean, with the fact that the miniatures ARE NOT IN PRODUCTION 7 months later I'm sure that this painting guide isn't the big speed bump that's holding up delivery.
It's just another thing that makes me go "WTF?" when I read it.
And you both proved my point, Kevin is not a mini gamer and does not see minis the same way a mini based game company such as 40k or battletech would. Your assumptions may not be the same as his. I might be splitting hairs and you may not agree. I'm not taking his or your side. I'm just pointing out that when you make assumptions you do so based on your history and preferences and his history and preferences are not necessarily the same.
CAV, Heavy Gear, and many other mini games do not have painting guides included in the manual. In fact only in the last few years has battletech included painting guides.
CAV, Heavy Gear, and many other mini games do not have painting guides included in the manual. In fact only in the last few years has battletech included painting guides.
.
To be picky, some Heavy Gear books do have painting guides... We even posted a great one from the Black Talon book online as the book was hard to find in color for a while. I also remember having a BT rules compendium from the 90s that had painting guides...
To be honest, I like to see these guides and consider full-color pretty painted mini pics a big part of a game with models, but I'm perfectly happy if these guides are left online, as they're not necessarily the best use of page count in printed books.
No worries Mike... this isn't the KS comments.. we can cheerfully agree to disagree without pulling an Alex Clarke. HG does have it in the fully featured L&L book and likely will in the next one since it'll include all the armies as well, just not in the bare bones rules mechanics only Field Manual.
Kendachi wrote: What gets me is the statements that make me question earlier statements. Working on a color guide? Wouldn't that be part of the rules... that are done and approved? Huh.
No, painting guides would not be considered part of the rules, especially by someone who is not a mini gamer historically. Gotta keep things in perspective.
But they're historically included in the rulebook which is why I made the comment and likely Kendachi did as well. The rulebook likely now needs to be approved again resulting in further delays. I can't speak for Kendachi but when they tell me that the rules are done and approved that means not just the mechanics but also the physical layout of the book which would include all the pages (including painting guides which I assumed they were done with after announcing the poorly executed Design the Ace contest whose results would be a part of that section).
Yes, that's exactly it, thanks warboss. When I bought my $89 copy of 40k the painting guide is in the rule book.
But, sure, what if it isn't? Has this "painting guide" been approved or is it still not even sent to be approved? I mean, with the fact that the miniatures ARE NOT IN PRODUCTION 7 months later I'm sure that this painting guide isn't the big speed bump that's holding up delivery.
It's just another thing that makes me go "WTF?" when I read it.
And you both proved my point, Kevin is not a mini gamer and does not see minis the same way a mini based game company such as 40k or battletech would. Your assumptions may not be the same as his. I might be splitting hairs and you may not agree. I'm not taking his or your side. I'm just pointing out that when you make assumptions you do so based on your history and preferences and his history and preferences are not necessarily the same.
CAV, Heavy Gear, and many other mini games do not have painting guides included in the manual. In fact only in the last few years has battletech included painting guides.
My 2 cents take it for what it's worth.
So, you're saying that since we're not Kevin we can't know what Kevin's thinking? Fair enough.
I think we've been through enough of this already. I'm okay with it showing up in August, just take the covers off what you're doing! At least this isn't Raging Hero's super-double-triple-secret workflow magic.... I'd of killed by now if I had pledged that one.
Cypher-xv wrote: Woke up this morning to see akashic got another thread locked. Good thing he's not into 40k or else he might ruin this forum too.
Wow.. that one is a doozy. I especially like the post where he both says that it's great that Palladium has done the same thing for decades yet calls them an indy maverick company. Lol.. just because you like bell bottoms and have been wearing them since the 1970's doesn't mean you're ahead of fashion when they come back into style temporarily 20 years later.
Kendachi wrote: What gets me is the statements that make me question earlier statements. Working on a color guide? Wouldn't that be part of the rules... that are done and approved? Huh.
No, painting guides would not be considered part of the rules, especially by someone who is not a mini gamer historically. Gotta keep things in perspective.
But they're historically included in the rulebook which is why I made the comment and likely Kendachi did as well. The rulebook likely now needs to be approved again resulting in further delays. I can't speak for Kendachi but when they tell me that the rules are done and approved that means not just the mechanics but also the physical layout of the book which would include all the pages (including painting guides which I assumed they were done with after announcing the poorly executed Design the Ace contest whose results would be a part of that section).
Yes, that's exactly it, thanks warboss. When I bought my $89 copy of 40k the painting guide is in the rule book.
But, sure, what if it isn't? Has this "painting guide" been approved or is it still not even sent to be approved? I mean, with the fact that the miniatures ARE NOT IN PRODUCTION 7 months later I'm sure that this painting guide isn't the big speed bump that's holding up delivery.
It's just another thing that makes me go "WTF?" when I read it.
And you both proved my point, Kevin is not a mini gamer and does not see minis the same way a mini based game company such as 40k or battletech would. Your assumptions may not be the same as his. I might be splitting hairs and you may not agree. I'm not taking his or your side. I'm just pointing out that when you make assumptions you do so based on your history and preferences and his history and preferences are not necessarily the same.
CAV, Heavy Gear, and many other mini games do not have painting guides included in the manual. In fact only in the last few years has battletech included painting guides.
My 2 cents take it for what it's worth.
So, you're saying that since we're not Kevin we can't know what Kevin's thinking? Fair enough.
I think we've been through enough of this already. I'm okay with it showing up in August, just take the covers off what you're doing! At least this isn't Raging Hero's super-double-triple-secret workflow magic.... I'd of killed by now if I had pledged that one.
No, I'm saying you can't assume that an Avid RPG gamer sees things the same way as a Miniatures gamer. That's all
I can't even bring myself to try to read the RPG book. It really does feel like I'm diving into a boring textbook. I'm getting into a PbP game later this month so I'm trying to get into the book, but it's just dragging along. I never experience this with any of the 40kRPGs. If anything I couldn't wait to dive right in.
As for the superduper PB fan. It looks like Wayne is going to look into it since it got brought up in the PBFB page.
When it comes to Kevin not being a mini wargamer that's fine. I think his mistake in all this is that he sees PB as an RPG company. When Kevin agreed to have this game done that's when PB became a gaming company for both RPGs and TT games. The old PB is dead. Now it's PB an games. Once he realizes that he'll be more friendly to TT gamers and the community as a whole.
This has been a big problem all along, I suspect. It's one of the reasons why everything I get that's not a mini out of this KS is just bonus.
And why I am already trying to find rules to use with my RT minis. I have the RTRPG books. I keep them around to scare kids at Halloween.
According to the Bill Coffin post from a few years back, he also wasn't an RPG gamer for many many years but that didn't stop him from putting out RPG books. Obviously that has changed since as he does GM at the open houses for a dozen fanboys per game but he doesn't even use his own published rules and instead just wings it.
Cypher-xv wrote: I can't even bring myself to try to read the RPG book. It really does feel like I'm diving into a boring textbook. I'm getting into a PbP game later this month so I'm trying to get into the book, but it's just dragging along. I never experience this with any of the 40kRPGs. If anything I couldn't wait to dive right in.
As for the superduper PB fan. It looks like Wayne is going to look into it since it got brought up in the PBFB page.
When it comes to Kevin not being a mini wargamer that's fine. I think his mistake in all this is that he sees PB as an RPG company. When Kevin agreed to have this game done that's when PB became a gaming company for both RPGs and TT games. The old PB is dead. Now it's PB an games. Once he realizes that he'll be more friendly to TT gamers and the community as a whole.
The few RPG's that I have played have had rulebook leagues ahead of the lackluster organization that is in the PB system books. I just wish they would send me copies of the files. I'd at least show then how the rules could be organized and make logical sense to a player!
Except we went into this thinking that Palladium Books was just signing their name and Ninja Division was doing the heavy lifting on the campaign, models and rules.
Their initial comments and little newsletters talked about how they were taking time to do some playtesting and give feedback and a bunch of people became very wary but cautiously optimistic.
I'd say it wasn't until after the campaign ended that their role got talked up a hell of a lot more, much to the chagrin of many of us.
So if Kevin wanted to go with his usual approach, great, but they should've been up front about it with us, rather than this pseudo-bait and switch.
... and I now realize how telling it was that I found it reassuring that a (to me) utterly unknown company doing all the work.
Balance wrote: To be honest, I like to see these guides and consider full-color pretty painted mini pics a big part of a game with models
Same here, at least regarding games that are made for specific model ranges -- especially license games like RT.
I don't do historical, but got into FoW briefly (rulebooks, didn't buy any minis) and I liked their brief painting sections, which were basically "historical markings for dummies" as they seemed to focus on covering the real essentials to make tanks and infantry passable to the guys who get bothered by ahistorical color schemes... Ideas on basic colors for camo from various theatres, etc.
I think fro Robotech I'd want a few paint articles covering some source-appropriate stuff. I'd love to see some coverage on getting good whites with stripes (which is very show-accurate) and for a laugh I'd like to see some VTs in the 'generic' color scheme assigned to Redshirts (wasn't it grey/brown?)... Showing off and covering techniques for painting things to have a 'cell-shaded' look would be great for those that want that look.
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Cypher-xv wrote: I can't even bring myself to try to read the RPG book. It really does feel like I'm diving into a boring textbook. I'm getting into a PbP game later this month so I'm trying to get into the book, but it's just dragging along. I never experience this with any of the 40kRPGs. If anything I couldn't wait to dive right in.
While in the sense of fair disclosure it's been forever since I've read a PB rulebook, I think the main issue is just that the core rules are a bit bland, not actually hard to read. Don't be surprised if your mind wanders, but it's OK because once you're outside the boring part (the 10-20 pages of hard-core rules stuff) you're in the better part, which is the mecha porn, class descriptions, etc. Even the Rifts versions of this were readable, if so over-the-top it's silly. The books look very bland and the writing isn't Shakespeare, but it's passable. I also seem to remember the opening 'What is an RPG?' "transcript" was re-used with minor tweaks for setting in multiple books, which means some poor mugger had the bad luck to try to mug someoen in a city full of mutant animals, micronized zentradi and gun-toting fighter pilots, and wherever else it got used.
The PB system (which is essentially the same, albeit with tweaks, across TMNT, Robotech, Rifts, etc.) is extremely exploitable by munchkins if the goal is 'powerful characters.' To avoid this, make the goal something different, and you'll make out a lot better. Pick an OCC because it's cool and you heard a mental electric-guitar power chord when you read the name, not because it has an exploitable rule. if everyone does this, you'll have fun and probably enjoy yourselves, as long as no one takes it too seriously. Rifts is infamous for 'power imbalance' because the core book alone can create characters ranging from a Rogue Scientist (a guy with some bonus science skills, a pistol, and not much else) to a Glitter Boy (who gets a multi-million-credit Railgun-equipped mecha with laser-resistant armor).
It is a horrible system, but I'd probably play it if a good GM wanted to run a short campaign in TMNT or Robotech, because I could stand it (assuming a good GM is running it) for a few games... Admittedly, I have nostalgic memories.
My ch is a veritech flyboy piloting a vf-4 (not YF-4). I'm not looking to making a super powerful ch. Just a ch that will be fun to play. Mike and I managed that on the RRTks comms section. Just thinking about reading the core book makes me sleepy and yes when I read it my mind does wander. Wish PB would be more like FFG when it comes to presentation.
Cypher-xv wrote: My ch is a veritech flyboy piloting a vf-4 (not YF-4). I'm not looking to making a super powerful ch. Just a ch that will be fun to play. Mike and I managed that on the RRTks comms section. Just thinking about reading the core book makes me sleepy and yes when I read it my mind does wander. Wish PB would be more like FFG when it comes to presentation.
Depending on the era (like Macross), that is a superpowerful character. The rulebook is unfortuantely filled with exclusions and distinction not present in the still unintuitive but much simpler older version that add nothing IMO to the overall game in most cases. I've been trying to make sense of the bonuses and it's a copy pase clusterfeth.
Cypher-xv wrote: My ch is a veritech flyboy piloting a vf-4 (not YF-4). I'm not looking to making a super powerful ch. Just a ch that will be fun to play. Mike and I managed that on the RRTks comms section. Just thinking about reading the core book makes me sleepy and yes when I read it my mind does wander. Wish PB would be more like FFG when it comes to presentation.
The Robotech RPG is a bit harder to cheese out on (but don't forget that every character needs to take a course in (I think) Boxing and Athletics because it increases physical skills (no kidding)). I think the biggest challenge with the original edition was that RPGs hadn't evolved to the point where there was discussion and thought on play-styles and flow to say "OK, the show is basically cool mecha fight sequences interspersed with interpersonal relationship stuff. Let's give the GMs some support for doing this kind of play"
Admittedly, I'd prefer if 'interpersonal relationship stuff'' is interpreted more as "digging into a mystery that connects to the plotline" or similar, but that's my tastes.
As I noted on the forums, daily yoga did indead increase the survivability of your mecha against missiles. With a strict reading of the current rules, that isn't the case but apparently everyone plays it the old way.
I think we've been through enough of this already. I'm okay with it showing up in August, just take the covers off what you're doing! At least this isn't Raging Hero's super-double-triple-secret workflow magic.... I'd of killed by now if I had pledged that one.
I'm in both. Do you think that's why I'm perpetually angry and/or depressed?
From the thread, it seems like they have less updates and more thinly veiled snark!
Fun all around.
Edit: Maybe I wasn't clear, it seems like the most snark is from the developer!
No kidding. I guess PB isn't so bad when compared to RH. That's a sad day when the customer gets the shaft from a company they like. Oh wait most of us play 40k.
We've got some more photos for you today, this time of the standard Queadluun-Rau Female Power Armor as well as the experimental Queadluun-Gult wielding the optional Z-CR Mk.II Beam Rifle.
But first, a big update from the President and Publisher of Palladium Books, Kevin Siembieda, to address a few questions and concerns some of you have had.
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
I have come to realize that some Robotech® fans are so excited about Robotech® RPG Tactics™ that the unexpected delays and slow progress toward manufacturing have made some people nervous and worried that Robotech® RPG Tactics™ will not see release at all.
First, and I mean no disrespect, that’s crazy. Please be assured Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is important to us and will be released in 2014 as SOON as we can make that possible. Like you, we want Robotech® RPG Tactics™ out as quick as we can without sacrificing quality. Like you, we were honestly expecting a November or December, 2013 release.
Were Palladium Books and Ninja Division much too optimistic about how quickly we could get Robotech® RPG Tactics™ into manufacturing? The obvious answer is, yes. And yes by a large margin. But please do NOT for one second wonder if we are ignoring this product or letting it languish. And especially don’t think it is never coming out. Palladium has put its every resource into bringing Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to the marketplace and making it something fans can delight in.
I apologize for the delays. They have been unavoidable. Nobody is more frustrated with how long it is taking to get this wonderful product into manufacturing than ALL of us at Palladium Books. Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is Palladium’s top priority.
Please remember that this is a massive undertaking with dozens and dozens of game pieces and other components (stat cards, rule book, decal sheets, markers, carrying case, box packaging, etc.). There are nearly 200 individual components (130+ stat cards alone and 30+ game pieces) that have needed to be designed, created, checked, rechecked and then produced. And I’m not even talking just about the creative end of art, rules and sculpts, but design considerations, sprue layout, mold engineering, manufacturing considerations, manufacturing modifications to the game pieces, tooling, packaging, collation of the MANY components and pieces, marketing, shipping, and quality checks, double checks, and triple checks. And once it goes into the tooling and manufacturing stage, there are other issues. That is a lot to keep track of and handled. Even though Ninja Division is the lead on this project, Palladium finds itself working on some aspect of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ every single day. We’re fine with that and taking on more. Anything to get this game into your hands.
MUCH of this is out of Palladium Books’ hands. We are reliant upon Ninja Division and the engineers and manufacturers in China. As newbies to this type of product, Palladium has no choice but to trust the people handling design, layout, sculpting/model making, engineering, mold making, manufacturing and all the rest. As a result, we don’t know why some of this is taking so long either, but a lot has to do with the scope of this ambitious and exciting Kickstarter-funded project. If there was anything we could do to send Robotech® RPG Tactics™ into manufacturing tomorrow, we would do so. But we can’t. All of us at Palladium Books, Ninja Division, and in China are working to get the product line into manufacturing as fast as we can, without sacrificing quality. Every time we speak with the guys at Ninja Division they sound like they have their hands full and are working to get this game into manufacturing. But again, there are so many different aspects of this very comprehensive product line – each with its own array of elements and aspects to be addressed – it is taking much longer than any of us anticipated. Still, we’re staying positive and we are as pumped up about Robotech® RPG Tactics™ as we were from the beginning.
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is a passion project for all of us at Palladium Books. We are all huge fans of Robotech®. Have been for decades. We are thrilled to be making this product line a reality. It is a dream come true. We are doing everything in our power to create and release a fun, fast-playing game that Robotech® fans will adore! We are working diligently to make the game pieces, accessories and packaging everything a Robotech® fan could want. That means beautiful, accurate and consistently scaled game pieces that will make your mouth water.
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Progress Report
● Prelude to manufacturing. I’m pleased to report that progress continues to be made on Robotech® RPG Tactics™. We are starting to see final pre-production models and many of the sprue layouts have been hammered out.
● Robotech® prototype game pieces. Palladium only just received the first batch of prototypes on the afternoon of Friday, December 27, 2013, and promptly began to build and photograph them to post images on the Robotech® Kickstarter page at the beginning of the very next week.
It is thrilling to finally be receiving these items. After building and examining what we received, Wayne and Jeff have caught some discrepancies with a few. Some changes from the sculpts are no doubt due to manufacturing requirements, and the pieces still look amazing. A couple seem like mistakes we will make sure to address. Likewise, Wayne and Jeff have notified Ninja Division that a couple of the figures were out of scale, and the Ninjas immediately set forth correcting them.
● Sprue Layout is in progress, but is yet to be finalized and approved. Some tweaks and changes are still necessary. Looking good on this front.
● The Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Battle Foam Carrying Case. Wayne Smith has been in communication with the Battle Foam people, and the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ carrying case should go into manufacturing soon. Again, this is just one piece of the Kickstarter products that requires our attention, input and development from a manufacturer. We’re on it.
● Color guide for the game pieces. Palladium’s Robotech® authority and artist, Jeff Burke, is working on creating an accurate color guide reference for painting the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game pieces. He is creating front, back and side views with flat colors for every Macross mecha in the game, plus some squad variations. This color guide will be printed and included in the box game as well as presented online for your easy access and reference.
● Packaging. Palladium is reviewing packaging right now. Again, until everything is finalized and approved, we must resist the urge to show it to you. But that doesn't mean all kinds of work isn't being done.
● Release Date: I’m sorry, but we still do not have a hard release date for the game. I know it is frustrating to say we are working on it and it will be released as soon as possible. When we know more, you will know it too. We are as frustrated and disappointed with the slow progress and sliding release date as anyone, but things are moving forward on all fronts. Hang tight. We are getting there. I’m sorry we can’t give you anything more substantive at this time. We are sharing information, photos and progress as we get them ourselves! Things are shaping up to be a Spring release.
● Dissemination of Information: Palladium would love to give you hard facts and a solid release date, but we cannot because we don’t have them yet ourselves. We share what we know as we know it. We release images and info as we can. We only received the first batch of pre-production prototypes on Friday, December 27, 2013, and began posting them the following Monday. We may not show you pieces that might have a problem, because we’re going to fix them and don’t want to alarm you. We give you “target dates” because you want them, but they are estimates and thus subject to change, and they have been changing.
Please know that we are working hard to make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ the best product we can. A game and game pieces that will please Robotech® fans and gamers alike. Every delay and problem drives us nuts, so we understand your frustration, but it’s all part of the process. We are working to get this game out pronto. Unfortunately, the complexity and scale of this project (which is kinda cool, when you think about it) has everyone from Palladium Books to Ninja Division to China working to make it great, all the time. Palladium has been nothing but honest with you about our expectations and what has been going on. We appreciate your patience and understanding.
● Being a Kickstarter backer. Your Kickstarter pledge goes toward funding a special project, to make that goal a reality. The product you are to receive as a Kickstarter backer is your reward for that pledge. Palladium Books is working diligently to finish the project you have so graciously helped to fund. And you WILL get the rewards promised. Believe that, because it is absolutely true.
Yes, there are delays. No, we cannot give you an exact release date yet – at this time – but we will as soon as we can make that happen.
In the end, you, our Kickstarter supporters, will be the first to receive a wonderful product that we hope will make you grin and provide endless hours of enjoyment. Thank you for sharing our dream. You, your pledges of support and unbridled enthusiasm are very much appreciated.
Keep the faith and we’ll continue to keep you informed along the way.
– Kevin Siembieda, Publisher
And Now, the Photos...
Note: The Female Power Armor and Battlepods shown above are pre-production prototypes assembled from 3D printed component parts. The Valkyrie Battloid and Tomahawk are early, unfinished demo prototypes, shown only for scale. The two Females are on generic 50mm bases, and the Valkyrie and Tomahawk are on 40mm bases designed for Robotech® RPG Tactics™.
Glad to see things moving along. What is the exp FPA holding in its left hand? I'm very happy I ordered the extra Miriya during the ks. After building the max model I'm very glad these models will be in plastic. I forgot how much I dislike metal models. If I get a metal Miriya mini it will seem daunting at first, but eventualy I'll put it together.
Really? It reads, don't worry despite the fact we don't know what's going on and it's everyone else's fault, but we're all working together, but we don't know what we've done, but they sound busy doing something, so you'll definitely get something one day.
It's a Siembieda update. He starts a sentence by taking responsibility and by the end of it the problems are assigned to others.
However, it's also an update. Which is something. Siembieda had to stop negotiating a lucrative Rifts movie deal over the phone to type out that update.
I really apologize if I seem to be leaving you hanging but the call was a personal one and I will not elaborate more than I already have. It would not be appropriate.
warboss wrote: As I noted on the forums, daily yoga did indead increase the survivability of your mecha against missiles. With a strict reading of the current rules, that isn't the case but apparently everyone plays it the old way.
This... actually kind of fits for an anime-inspired game. At least if there's any sort of 'will of the warrior' then it could almost, kinda make sense.
The Robotech Missile Rules are an infamous example of WTF game design, though.
Blaming Ninja Division does seem a bit defensive at this point in the game. I've seen some articles that it's very easy for a big, successful Kickstarter like this to spiral out of control. Ninja Division is also a relative newcomer, not a company that has been a successful RPG publisher for decades.
Well, they've stayed in business for decades, which is better than many companies.
Summary of the wall of rant: They choose to not inform us of progress since father Kevin thinks we cannot adjust to the chaotic changes of production which they themselves claim they do not understand. I could not on my best day publish an "update" that could convey so little information and "progress" that was supposed to "reassure us". He at least promises that the backer kits will become a reality but not even a hint of the status on ANYTHING. I feel insulted that he really thought what he wrote was sufficient.
Yes, I have decided to rant, really, really, hard, with 98% of my being... you have been warned.
Spoiler:
Identifying a problem and not providing a concrete solution: "I have come to realize that some Robotech® fans are so excited about Robotech® RPG Tactics™ that the unexpected delays and slow progress toward manufacturing have made some people nervous and worried that Robotech® RPG Tactics™ will not see release at all."
Check!
Belittling customers:"First, and I mean no disrespect, that’s crazy."
Check!
The same statement used for ANY product that runs well past the due date: : "we want Robotech® RPG Tactics™ out as quick as we can without sacrificing quality."
Check!
Long list of all the things that needed to be done that were no surprise but somehow become an excuse. Check!
Taking on "extra work" while admitting knowing nothing about it and not knowing the "why" of the delays = horrible supply chain management. Ambitious by their choosing and usual, no interest in lessons learned: "As a result, we don’t know why some of this is taking so long either, but a lot has to do with the scope of this ambitious and exciting Kickstarter-funded project."
Check!
That phrase again for late projects. Do they not know that the "cost of quality" is what they call a "bathtub curve"? Too little = bad. Too much = bad, I suspect they are sticking their noses in things they have little understanding and need people to explain it to them.: "to get the product line into manufacturing as fast as we can, without sacrificing quality."
Check!
The amount of "passion" in their descriptions (like so many projects before) and light on facts, is making my eyes water : "That means beautiful, accurate and consistently scaled game pieces that will make your mouth water."
Check!
Progress reports that really say nothing on progress other than we are not going backwards. I could not draft a statement to say any less if I tried: "Prelude to manufacturing. I’m pleased to report that progress continues to be made on Robotech® RPG Tactics™. We are starting to see final pre-production models and many of the sprue layouts have been hammered out."
Check!
Battlefoam case going into production "soon"... Ah, I give up...
A color guide to be included! Something outside the scope that somehow impacts timelines? Not really. Nice to have but again the primary goal being sidetracked. Plenty of reference material on the internet or fire up the TV show again...
Packaging, "resist the urge to show you"?? changes happen, why make us think it is not done at all since you do not want to show it to us? Ah yes, we are children to daddy Kevin.
I would bet money they do not even have a draft timeline for the project, firm dates are not going to happen.
It needs saying: They have not shared a single solitary finish date for a single element of the kickstarter; tokens, dice, a single kit, decals, a card.... NOTHING because they keep saying it is all subject to change.
No idea on how to throw a customer a bone... really... they need serious help on how they do things.
My work would be out of business with this kind of "reporting" method.
"Release Date: I’m sorry, but we still do not have a hard release date for the game. I know it is frustrating to say we are working on it and it will be released as soon as possible. When we know more, you will know it too. We are as frustrated and disappointed with the slow progress and sliding release date as anyone, but things are moving forward on all fronts. Hang tight. We are getting there. I’m sorry we can’t give you anything more substantive at this time. We are sharing information, photos and progress as we get them ourselves! Things are shaping up to be a Spring release."
"We give you “target dates” because you want them, but they are estimates and thus subject to change, and they have been changing." ??? I must have missed the memo of target dates. Show you can manage the "chain of target dates" and we can see the logical change of the delivery date. What parts are still in the design stage? How many released for production tooling? How many have tooling complete? How many are now in production? What is the anticipated completion of production to meet backer demand? Has sprue size and any cuts to be made to fit packaging been evaluated? This is not rocket science... rather than starry eyed wonderment some cold assessment of the production machine is in order.
"Palladium has been nothing but honest with you about our expectations and what has been going on. We appreciate your patience and understanding." This is a bit of a kick in the teeth. Honesty is easy when you tell someone almost nothing other than "kinda, maybe, mostly done..." at least the famous 98% has not showed up. We have been lied to because they choose to guess rather than make an honest assessment. To do something the same way and expect a different result is to be insane, I am not sure if I prefer them lying to us or being off their nut.
"Being a Kickstarter backer. Your Kickstarter pledge goes toward funding a special project, to make that goal a reality. The product you are to receive as a Kickstarter backer is your reward for that pledge. Palladium Books is working diligently to finish the project you have so graciously helped to fund. And you WILL get the rewards promised. Believe that, because it is absolutely true" Note, you WILL get it but absolutely no idea when that will happen for either party. Also a small reminder that it was to fund making the project happen and we should be thankful we are getting anything at all for our money outside of that...
Manchu wrote: It's clear that we are meant to turn on Ninja Division at this point.
No, I'd place it equally on both sides.
I said "we are meant" as in Siembieda wants the grumblers looking to Ninja Division and I guess some amorphous notion of "China" rather than PB.
To wit:
We are reliant upon Ninja Division and the engineers and manufacturers in China. As newbies to this type of product, Palladium has no choice but to trust the people handling design, layout, sculpting/model making, engineering, mold making, manufacturing and all the rest. As a result, we don’t know why some of this is taking so long either ... Every time we speak with the guys at Ninja Division they sound like they have their hands full and are working to get this game into manufacturing.
Manchu wrote: It's clear that we are meant to turn on Ninja Division at this point.
No, I'd place it equally on both sides.
I said "we are meant" as in Siembieda wants the grumblers looking to Ninja Division and I guess some amorphous notion of "China" rather than PB.
To wit:
We are reliant upon Ninja Division and the engineers and manufacturers in China. As newbies to this type of product, Palladium has no choice but to trust the people handling design, layout, sculpting/model making, engineering, mold making, manufacturing and all the rest. As a result, we don’t know why some of this is taking so long either ... Every time we speak with the guys at Ninja Division they sound like they have their hands full and are working to get this game into manufacturing.
The second hand info is that the way Ninja Division was chosen was a bit shady in the first place. This all just reminds me a bit too much of 1984.
"Oceania was at war with Eurasia and in alliance with Eastasia."
From the MTV interview... "Siembieda said, "We teamed up with Ninja Division and everything came together really fast. When we have an experienced team of game designers, you don't say, 'Let me think about it.' You go, 'Okay. Let's do this.' And here we are.""
Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Eurasia was an ally.
From yesterday's update... "MUCH of this is out of Palladium Books’ hands. We are reliant upon Ninja Division and the engineers and manufacturers in China. As newbies to this type of product, Palladium has no choice but to trust the people handling design, layout, sculpting/model making, engineering, mold making, manufacturing and all the rest. As a result, we don’t know why some of this is taking so long either, "
In the end, I suspect this modified quote is the most appropriate:
"Oceania(Palladium) is permanently at war(blaming) with the other superstates. Such war(blame) is not necessary – except in the sense of keeping the warring states’ constituents(backers) in check. Oceania uses war to control its constituents.(backers)"
The blame is not necessary because they could instead keep up truly and accurately updated with progress like some (but admittedly not all) kickstarters do with an table of what needs to be done, what has been done, and when both of those did/will happen. I'm not particularly upset that it's late but rather in the "Palladium as usual" fashion that they're handling this delay. They make a big deal about how this project is so different than anything they've ever done but yet they're handling the backers exactly like they've handled their preorder customers for decades and NG crowdfunders for years (and yes, we're in the second year of NG crowdfunding waiting). You can't have your cake and eat it too, Palladium, without the others at the table wondering aloud "WTF?!".
Ninja Division is a state of being, a French phrase that translates roughly as "movement through stillness." Like all French-described states of being, it is not a choice so much as an illusion of choice.
Also, as Manchu stated, Amorphous China is really throwing its weight around by delaying every Kickstarter it can get its inscrutable hands on.
I "know" it because I neither PB nor SodaPop (a.k.a. Ninja Division?) seems able to write good rules and they are supposed to collaborate to write these.
What's worse than bad rules? Bad rules written by committee.
Manchu wrote: I "know" it because I neither PB nor SodaPop (a.k.a. Ninja Division?) seems able to write good rules and they are supposed to collaborate to write these.
What's worse than bad rules? Bad rules written by committee.
Thank-you.
Oddly, it makes it all worth while knowing at least one person read it, never mind appreciated it.
I am at a point in my career I KNOW I could manage this project and have fun doing it and make people happy and excited.
Heck, I have had to deal with the China issues where at every turn they try to do shortcuts with little or no permission (they are MUCH better at accuracy of product now).
The glacial slow problem is:
China is making the parts (Far away, spot decisions made as hick-ups are found = difficult to manage if not on-site).
Who is doing the dies again????
Ninja Division did the design (and would have to help with deciding where the models are broken up on the sprue).
Palladium will want to review every tiny bit of what gets done.
Harmony Gold will have to be informed and heaven help you if the tooling is started and they want changes.
Lastly:
Kevin reserves the right to make a multitude of changes at the last minute as he feels he is under pressure.
He will then realize as well that he alone cannot make all the changes he wants in the time frame he wants and he will blame/fire a multitude of people and force things along and drag it out at least another month and a half. The only hope is that he may restrict this to the rule book since this is within his comfort zone.
Alpharius wrote: So, for those that are already saying that the 'official' rules will be no good - how do we 'know' this already?
We don't know it for sure. I saw some very alarming issues IMO in the tiny bit that they posted during the kickstarter but they haven't released anything publicly since Gencon except for a few datacards which still had some of the issues that were raised during the kickstarter (shooty giant robots have more close combat options than a Street Fighter II arcade character). I can't comment on the Relic Knights stuff and have no idea how those rules are but Palladium announced that they became MORE involved in the rules during the summer (after stating for almost 6 months that they'd be largely hand off) and Palladium rules always have been and progressively have become even worse messes.
Unlike algebra where two negatives make a postive, I don't think game rules work that way. I suspect a closer analogy would be trying to cover up the smell of poop in a public bathroom by puking in the corner. The poop smell may not be as individually noticeable but the overall atmosphere certainly hasn't improved.
I think that this project is quickly spiraling out of control, particularly if Kevin is taking a more active role. I will be surprised if we have them by Gencon of next year.
What do you mean spring into action? Do you mean like "crises of treachery" spring into action. Everything must be sold! Save PB! That would bode ill for the project.
Thank-you.
Oddly, it makes it all worth while knowing at least one person read it, never mind appreciated it.
Make that at least two people.
While we're at it, how about a blast from the past? From Palladium's January 3rd, 2013 weekly newletter thingy;
Some outsiders looking in have questioned Palladium going into an unfamiliar market with a new product line. I think, however, that all questions and doubts will be put to rest when more details are presented. Our thorough research indicates this is a tremendous opportunity to make Palladium truly strong again. And the talented people working with us have the expertise that Palladium does not have itself. You don’t pass up an opportunity like this when it comes your way. As Robotech® fans ourselves, we are working to make this game line gorgeous to look at and fun to play. We want it to be everything Robotech® fans as well as Robotech® gamers could want. We want you to go wild over this product line. We’re excited. The people working with Palladium are excited. The people at Harmony Gold are excited. This is going to be something special.
Emphasis mine.
So, January 2013: "Don't worry guys, we totally have this under control! We know people who know how to do this!"
January 2014: "Don't worry guys, we have no idea what's going on but we're sure it's completely under control!"
Man, if I dropped this kind of weapons grade snark in the comments I think I might come up on murder charges.
Of course, after reading through the entirety of the comments and various forums I've chatted about this on, it'd easily be considered justifiable homicide.
I'd take a break from reading the comments for a bit, Forar. Much like Palladium, I decided to not read, comment, or interact with pledgers for several months in 2013 and they were the most peaceful Kickstarter months I had. Just the bad grammar and vulgarity of a single new poster who insists on posting in a luzls haha butwhipe! format is enough to make your head explode.
I think I'll take your advice, warboss. I'm sick of the "Quality in 2034!!!" people. Seriously, is there a backer out there who's mindset is "Rush me some crappy miniatures now!!!"? If that's what they think, that's some terminal idiocy.
Also, there's someone in the comments who would really like a video of someone taking a deuce. Or maybe Kevin doing that. I don't know... I just...
Yeah, yeah - it's worth some laughs, but at the end of the day it sucks. Sucks, I say!
Did Mantic delay (albeit minimally) the Kings of War kickstarter delivery for "quality"? Was Sedition Wars delayed to make sure the best possible product got out? I'm actually asking because those are the two high profile kickstarters that I almost cut my Kickstarter ribbon on before Robotech and I really am glad that I missed out on both.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kendachi wrote: I think I'll take your advice, warboss. I'm sick of the "Quality in 2034!!!" people. Seriously, is there a backer out there who's mindset is "Rush me some crappy miniatures now!!!"? If that's what they think, that's some terminal idiocy.
Also, there's someone in the comments who would really like a video of someone taking a deuce. Or maybe Kevin doing that. I don't know... I just...
Yeah, yeah - it's worth some laughs, but at the end of the day it sucks. Sucks, I say!
Yeah, the deuce video guy is the one I was referring to. But.. just so you know... his vulgarity, bad spelling, 1337 txt speeak, and whatever else he can pile on is because he's on a Kindle.. and because China! (I couldn't resist that last part)
Yeah, the deuce video guy is the one I was referring to. But.. just so you know... his vulgarity, bad spelling, 1337 txt speeak, and whatever else he can pile on is because he's on a Kindle.. and because China! (I couldn't resist that last part)
Wow! A Kindle you say? Isn't it a great world where we have wifi under bridges?
I wonder if the money a palladium claimed to gave spent on advertising actually meant lobotomising an army of fanboys to defend Palladium?
Kevin posts in an update he's disappointed with progress, fanboys wave flag and cheer.
Backer posts a reply also expressing disappointment, fanboys aggressively attack.
What it really needs is a well written post to Palladium, Ninja Division and the "fans" reminding them that not all backers are Palladium fanboys. For many I'd say this is their first exposure to Palladium and they really need to address their current public image. Rapid fans and moronic incompetence would have killed this kickstarter and shouldn't be accepted as the norm now.
While we're at it, how about a blast from the past? From Palladium's January 3rd, 2013 weekly newletter thingy;
Some outsiders looking in have questioned Palladium going into an unfamiliar market with a new product line. I think, however, that all questions and doubts will be put to rest when more details are presented. Our thorough research indicates this is a tremendous opportunity to make Palladium truly strong again. And the talented people working with us have the expertise that Palladium does not have itself. You don’t pass up an opportunity like this when it comes your way. As Robotech® fans ourselves, we are working to make this game line gorgeous to look at and fun to play. We want it to be everything Robotech® fans as well as Robotech® gamers could want. We want you to go wild over this product line. We’re excited. The people working with Palladium are excited. The people at Harmony Gold are excited. This is going to be something special.
I am sooo wildly excited that I have to close my eyes because the above quoted BURNS MY EYES.
Say the mantra everyo:ne "Wait till April to cast thy reproach, and only then raise the pitchfork and torch!"
They are like the scorpion in the story: "It tis their nature."
Since Tactics is made to play with large squadrons it is designed with a system simpler that X-wing. If it wasn't then games would go on for hours. There are characters with special traits and upgrades for units but not nearly the variety of X-wing. This is a good thing though. Games can be played with 20+ unit per side in less time it will take a 3 on 3 X-wing battle.
Mike1975 wrote: Since Tactics is made to play with large squadrons it is designed with a system simpler that X-wing. If it wasn't then games would go on for hours. There are characters with special traits and upgrades for units but not nearly the variety of X-wing. This is a good thing though. Games can be played with 20+ unit per side in less time it will take a 3 on 3 X-wing battle.
I can't wait to read through the actual rules!
I'd rather have a game with deep and complex rules than take off 20 models per side.
Mike1975 wrote: Since Tactics is made to play with large squadrons it is designed with a system simpler that X-wing. If it wasn't then games would go on for hours. There are characters with special traits and upgrades for units but not nearly the variety of X-wing. This is a good thing though. Games can be played with 20+ unit per side in less time it will take a 3 on 3 X-wing battle.
I can't wait to read through the actual rules!
Ironically, Mike, I don't think the system is simpler than x-wing despite the differences in model count. I do admit that the damage system is more complex in X-wing as it goes beyond just number tracking but I'm not sure how the rest plays. You've tried your own massively expanded version of the quickstart rules we were shown. I fear the influence of Palladium will make the game much more complicated but not add any significant depth, similar to the issues I've found with the RPG 2nd edition Robotech rules. The overly complicated but easily abusable LOS system and relative emphasis on close combat options in a shooting anime game are indications of pointless complication without depth.
Just as a note as well, the date on the latest press release for Robotech (scroll way down to the Tactics "catalog" entry and not the explanation up top) has the delivery date pushed back to April. It's doable at this point as a date for getting some of the product out (but likely just the start with 5,000+ backers) but that IMO would mean that most everything else goes perfectly from this point on. With the 3d prints still being sent back for corrections, I don't think we'll meet that date.
Finally, I figured I'd offer in this thread first before revising my swap shop post but if anyone is interested in trading a resin Miriya for a metal Miriya or Max figure, feel free to PM me.
Well X-Wing, one attack, roll 2-3 dice, defenders rolls 2-3 dice and depending on what pips show up you figure out if you hit or not. Tactics is one attack roll, unless you shoot a wad of missiles and one dodge roll. Movement is also much simpler in Tactics. I would say Tactics is faster flowing. If you want more complex you need to decide how complex vs how long you wish to play. Battletech is incredibly complex but take hours to play a lance on lance battle. That's 4 on 4 for non-BT players. Now if you want other rules there is Heavy Gear, CAV, Dreampod's rules, Mekton, and Alpha Strike just to name a few. Choose what works for you and go with it. Trying to hope every game will fit your bill is the wrong way to go. Also fighters can have numerous add-on making each unit pretty unique. You will find only a few unique units in Tactics and a few upgrades in comparison.
As far a HtH, I can't say if and how the rules have changed. It is all conjecture until we see the real rules. If the HtH rules are pretty close to what was in the Demos I personally will use my own rules that I created for HtH that I feel are well balanced. I always thought BTHtH was also stupid. A Kick doing as much as an AC-20 on the Atlas, meh.
Mike1975 wrote: Trying to hope every game will fit your bill is the wrong way to go.
*snip*
It is all conjecture until we see the real rules.
I'm not trying to do that though but rather I'm simply pointing out concerns that I had from reading the small amount of info they've given us. I was actually very impressed that they didn't use the frankenstein %/d20 rules for the combat to emulate the RPG. Overall, the rules seemed passable for mass combat if pared down a bit for the model counts even further. I'd have preferred less granular damage tracking but they did what they did (again) to emulate the RPG stats (unfortunately). I'd have preferred that they figure out what works well on the tabletop instead of just using a simple formula from the wild guesses used in the RPG. If I had been evil overlord of the galaxy, I would have included some optional rules to emulate RPG combat encounters in a separate chapter rather than apparently shoehorning them into the core rules... but I'm not suprised that they did given the game's clunky name (Robotech Tactics would have been much better IMO).
In any case, I agree with the last part I quoted though but that ball has been in Palladium's court since May 20th. I remain cautiously pessimistic due to my long and much reinforced experience with Palladium (most recently with the 2nd edition RPG rules).
warboss wrote: Just as a note as well, the date on the latest press release for Robotech (scroll way down to the Tactics "catalog" entry and not the explanation up top) has the delivery date pushed back to April.
Do you have a link or quote for that? Because the front page is still on the "nope, no release target at the moment" and their update from the 9th says Spring.
The UEDF sourcebook has a release date of April. Perhaps you saw that?
Here is the front page paragraph:
"Barring any unexpected delays, the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ box game and initial expansion sets should go to manufacturing soon. An exact street date is unknown at this time and we’d rather not speculate."
Here's the most recent update's timeline:
"Release Date: Yet to be determined; Spring 2014."
Considering their giant "look, guys, who knows? I mean, man, who really knows?" post, even giving a month would be highly optimistic, not to mention one that's only 2 months past the current one.
Even by "spring" I'm assuming they mean "June", as in the end of spring. And that'd just be for the first packages going out. Trying to get the non-EU stuff shipped in June/July (before they have Gencon to attend to) would seem to be the plan, if one extrapolates that far.
But, as noted, even that requires them to be on top of things and not get a factory slot in May or whatever.
warboss wrote: Just as a note as well, the date on the latest press release for Robotech (scroll way down to the Tactics "catalog" entry and not the explanation up top) has the delivery date pushed back to April.
Do you have a link or quote for that? Because the front page is still on the "nope, no release target at the moment" and their update from the 9th says Spring.
The UEDF sourcebook has a release date of April. Perhaps you saw that?
You're correct about the source of my confusion. I saw the April date one line above the Robotech Tactics picture and incorrectly linked the two.
Mike1975 wrote: Since Tactics is made to play with large squadrons it is designed with a system simpler that X-wing. If it wasn't then games would go on for hours. There are characters with special traits and upgrades for units but not nearly the variety of X-wing. This is a good thing though. Games can be played with 20+ unit per side in less time it will take a 3 on 3 X-wing battle.
I can't wait to read through the actual rules!
I'd rather have a game with deep and complex rules than take off 20 models per side.
There's always homebrew, I guess.
I would hate a game with complex rules. I don't want to have to read a thick booklet and/or watch a dozen videos just to get to the first game.
If you have time for complex rules in each new game you play, you have time to homebrew.
In their defense, it's not being packaged and sold as a skirmish game. They did however say they're would include smaller squad army composition for more skirmish sized games. The problem is that with the almost complete silence since the KS regarding the rules (only broken by the posting of a few datacards), I can't be certain that they didn't drop that. I hope not because the battlecry pledge that I got isn't big enough for the bigger sized squads they initially posted. I'd have to add all my Q-Raus, N-Gers, and Gnerls together into a frankenstein squad as well as tack on all my specialty pods to the regults instead of using them by themselves. I do hope they will support the smaller sized army format officially in the game. I don't want to continue the long standing tradition of having to beg other players to house rule stuff to work like with the RPG.
Yeah. They haven't said much about it lately, but the basic idea of the skirmish seems pretty simple. Most "upgrade cards" are 1/2 a core card, and the skirmish apparently just used the upgrade cards as the basis for squads. Smaller model count, obviously a much smaller points total, go to work with a handful of figures, enough to see a variety of mechanics but not enough to bog a table down.
I hope it's there too. Much as I expect my friends to want to play "omg 12 hours! All the points!" style games, I think learning the basics while we have only a few models built apiece with the skirmish version (or just want to slip in some quick games with a handful of units) would be ideal.
Also, keep in mind that "20 models on the table" might represent from 1 to 5 squads, depending on what upgrade cards are chosen and how many points are spent on characters and unit upgrades.
It could be 5 squads of 4 Veritechs, or 1 squad with an Officer's Pod, a Recon Pod, and 18 Battle Pods By my understanding, an entire squad activates at the same time, and with rules regarding figures within 2" (as I recall) being able to 'take a hit' for another, a whole squadron card essentially acts as one giant multi-piece figure in a lot of ways. Losses of units reduce its ability to be in multiple places at once, firepower and ability to take further punishment, etc.
The more I look at it, as a miniature wargame noob, it seems like a skirmish game with a (slightly) larger wargame's model count. With the "alternating activations", it'll be interesting to see how the rules and metagame adapt to either piling an entire force into one squad, or using a swarm of smaller/cheaper squads to fill the table, etc.
For the 1% that can't get over Max an Miriya gate (nice one Forar), today's your last chance and ask for them. It's the last day for ordering grab bags. That's how I got mine.
Albeit I'm not Mike and don't have the benefit trying it out in person, I'd agree that a large skirmish scale (bigger than infinity and HG... smaller than 40k) model count seems about right for a 2 hour game. While I do enjoy larger games on occasion, I've had the bad luck of not being able to finish them over the past year outside of x-wing. My 40k games of 2000pts+ have all ended on turn 3 either because the setup took so long and we ran out of (open store) time... or the game was so lopsided and the outcome was obvious.
We're all (including Mike at least pre-NDA) are working from early incomplete versions of the rules and army building but even the small breadcrumbs they gave us had some concerns. I didn't see any way of ever using a VF-1J in their published skirmish rules. A simple fix is to add a J support card which I suggested on multiple sites but we'll have to see if anyone listened. I have trouble believing that no one at either Palladium or Ninja Division (both supposedly fans of robotech) realized that in the small skirmish scale game you couldn't emulate the most important small scale squadron in all of macross, vermillion squadron, but that was and possibly still is the case. That is just one of several reasons I want the rules posted and vetted for massive DERP that usually accompanies a Palladium release.
My ultimate goal isn't my own personal perfect minis game like Mike said but rather to be able to use my battlecry minis in some logical fashion. I admit that is subjective but I don't feel that adding in "everything that isn't a battlepod" into one squad fits that bill and that's what I'll have to do (again.. according to the snippets they gave us while we were still pledging) without a skirmish mode. YMMV. Both because of my battlecry pledge and for painting sanity, I'd like to be able to field two 3-veritech squadrons (2 A, 1J), two destroid squadrons, and one "special" squadron (some combo of supers, ghosts, whatever) for demos.
Cypher-xv wrote: For the 1% that can't get over Max an Miriya gate (nice one Forar), today's your last chance and ask for them. It's the last day for ordering grab bags. That's how I got mine.
That's if they have enough left over. Spending $65-75 for a grab bag on the chance of getting one is pretty underwhelming unless one also wanted a bunch of the books/signed stuff. According to their statements back around Gencon, they might have M&M for sale on their online shop some day, so I think I'll hold off and see if that ever comes to fruition. Simply don't need them badly enough to either pay 2-3 times the asking price for one (along with a bunch of books to add to the pile I'm already trying to get rid of).
But I wish anyone who takes that gamble luck. As Cypher here can attest, it is possible to get them through this offer.
As for the skirmish game, perhaps we're not supposed to be able to use 1J's in the skirmish. Not sure if the Elite cards can be attached to a skirmish game either, so there are other units that might never show up in a skirmish, like the MAC II. Depends on whether or not they want to make the skirmish a simple/quick demo-style '75 points, 1-2 'cards', maybe a cheap character or upgrade' that people can set up and finish in an hour or so, as opposed to the 300 point 'hour long games' that will presumably be more like 2-3 hours between newer players and possibly requiring extra set up time.
I mean, hell, I'm expecting Max to be 50+ points of ass kicking all on his own. It may be that Vermillion squadron simply wouldn't fit in a small scale game. :-P
Edit: that said, it probably wouldn't take a lot of testing to figure out a fair 'cost' for adding a 1J to a pair of 1A's. Obviously the Leadership attribute would be huge, but in theory 3A's and 1J are equal in points to 4A's.
Or we've already broken the game. >.>
Or J's are so good they essentially cost, say, 35 points and 1As are more like 15 each and a standard squadron of 4 is 'correctly' priced and the 1A squad upgrades are overpriced by a bit.
vOv
Some day we may know.
Someday.
Late edit: on further thought, they did use a VT squad with a 1J in the demos, so I might be more correct about them being available in some fashion than not.
I'd rather not have to EITHER never use 1/4 of my valkyries OR house rule the game from day one in one of the two basic game modes (and the one that specifically I prefer). I don't feel like I should do either to use what comes in the starter box. YMMV.
Oh, I agree. I'm just spitballing like we usually do, 'cause we probably won't know for another half a year, and it's more interesting to ponder the 'what ifs' than contemplate how much work would be necessary to kickstart being able to slap someone through the internet for excessive fanboyism and white knighting.
'Cause man, Palladium die hard fans are a special bunch.
Sure, it reduces the likelihood that someone just buys one box of everything and plays tiny games with their friends.
But the skirmish could also act as the 'gateway drug' to picking up the full version. All it'd take is one appealing tournament that needs 150/300+ points of figures, or some good games with friends where escalation begins as people buy into more and more stuff.
I've seen this with Magic countless times; people start with "let's just buy 1 pack per week, play with that" and then a few weeks or months later people are buying booster boxes and hitting up singles shops for hundreds of cards at a time.
To be clear, I agree with you that it wouldn't be surprising.
To be clear, I agree with you that it wouldn't be surprising.
I just think it'd be terribly short sighted.
But, y'know... *jazzhands* and all.
It's not short sighted but just them being the indy maverick of gaming! (in the words of Palladium's own fan Voldemort). As a business decision, I can at least see the reasoning behind getting rid of a skirmish scale option especially with the model counts being touted and sold in the core box and expansions. I just hope that the rules don't bog down at that level. In the meantime, I'll be gluing my Battletech Unseen minis collection for use in hopefully upcoming Heavy Gear, X-Wing, and even possibly stand ins for a Robotech trial run after I get some info from Mike about what he did with the Q-Raus.
Thanks but they're pretty junky. I've got a missing gun and every head has broken antenna... but it's enough to play a small game which is why I converted the LAMs over to x-wing (see that forum) and why I'll use the battletech minis hopefully in Heavy Gear next week. I think it might have been someone IIRC from this thread that some a nice collection of gashapon a few weeks ago on ebay. I would have killed for that collection a few years ago.
Mike1975 wrote: Actually Battletech unseen and Tactics are pretty close in scale.
If the gencon minis are any indication, the human stuff is much closer to the battletech unseen metal minis whereas the Zent mecha will be noticeably bigger than unseen versions.
Thanks for posting the rules. I'm curious to see how the FPA ended up statwise. The v2.0 rpg stats definitely had some surprises for me. Minimissiles are unguided straight line rockets and they swapped the FPA to all minimissiles strangely. In the show, you see them twisting right after launch to completely different directions which doesnt jive with the stats. It'll be interesting to see how that rpg (IMO) mistake affects the tabletop game.
So I called PB. Tried to explain the concerns the gaming community has & ask the for a token of good faith. The rep laughed at me on this. Said "oh you want more free stuff on top of the free stuff you're already getting?"
When I brought up max & miriya he said basically if we as backers feel entitled to request one via a grab bag. In response to my requests for any kind of timeline he said they have no idea. He said they aren't allowed to show any kind of rules or cards in digital format & won't send out early bird rulebooks regardless of length of delay.
Oh & in response to our concerns about delays, timelines, refusal to show us anything aside from shape ways prints that it's all just negativity toward the project & pb & that we need to stop accusing them of not wanting to make this game.
I hope I get Miriya in my next grab bag. Max needs his girl.
I would hate for PB to now drop the skirmish rules. Mike I hope you bring this up next time. My main interest in this was for the minis and for skirmish style games. Tell Kevin mini war gamers don't mind alternate ways of playing. Forar's right about keeping the skirmish rules as a gateway for bigger games.
Red_Starrise wrote: So I called PB. Tried to explain the concerns the gaming community has & ask the for a token of good faith. The rep laughed at me on this. Said "oh you want more free stuff on top of the free stuff you're already getting?"
When I brought up max & miriya he said basically if we as backers feel entitled to request one via a grab bag. In response to my requests for any kind of timeline he said they have no idea. He said they aren't allowed to show any kind of rules or cards in digital format & won't send out early bird rulebooks regardless of length of delay.
Oh & in response to our concerns about delays, timelines, refusal to show us anything aside from shape ways prints that it's all just negativity toward the project & pb & that we need to stop accusing them of not wanting to make this game.
Wow. Uh... What? What the feth? Is this for real?
They've already shown us some cards... didn't they?
While what you discussed in regards to the game is between you and the rep, I can't imagine any situation where it would be appropriate for someone representing a company to laugh at a customer.
Well, they said they made around 200 M&Ms for Gencon, and like 125 or so for DFF.
~325 M&Ms, minus the "omg we sold out" at Gencon and whatever was picked off by fans and ebay resellers, yeah that should totally cover hundreds or thousands of backers who might want one.
It's possible they did another run of them and actually have a good number on hand, for grab bags, for the next convention they attend, whatever. But if that's the case, they should say so.
As for the rest of that call; let's be real, we didn't get anything "free". We got a big pile of stuff at a significant discount off retail/MSRP, but nothing they're sending us will be "free". If there's something they're not charging us for, then that's their screw up in the business model.
"Hey, I'd like to be able to buy a model" should not be answered with "then you should totally give us $60-100 and pray we have some left over". That's not a purchase, that's gambling.
While we don't know how Starrise worded it, but across literally tens of thousands of comments, I've seen very few (if any) comments even resembling this "they don't want to make it" bull that they keep trying to push. I have full faith they and HG and ND want to make it and want to roll around on giant piles of money from this product line. What's in question is how on top of things they actually are. We've been given conflicting info on that subject for 3/4 of a year now.
They want the "negativity towards pb" to stop? How about they stop treating us like children and actually deal with us straight up? Maybe follow through on the things they say they will in the time frame they give, and provide reasons for delays when that can't happen.
I guess Jorel is wrong though, calling them up isn't the best way to get in touch and get info. There's an important caveat that one must be willing to tongue bathe them in love and adoration as well.
That IS a choice, maybe not the best for stability.
They are all excited about the prospects of this project but forget that it is not all about them, it is about the 5000+ of us and how we are treated.
Seeing how this has been handled I do not expect anything to be different in future projects, so I will not buy a single thing from them until it hits retail and even then with some trepidation.
Forar wrote: While we don't know how Starrise worded it, but across literally tens of thousands of comments, I've seen very few (if any) comments even resembling this "they don't want to make it" bull that they keep trying to push. I have full faith they and HG and ND want to make it and want to roll around on giant piles of money from this product line. What's in question is how on top of things they actually are. We've been given conflicting info on that subject for 3/4 of a year now.
It's easier to address an extreme comment posted once with an answer (that the superfans can then claim is them listening and responding) rather than responding to the reasonable ones posted over and over and over again by multiple people (like give us a detailed "to do/done" list, post the rules like other KS so we can help find errors, etc).
I have dozens of them left over from when I was working on my initial version of the game. I have probably around 45-50 of the various pods, veritechs in all 3 forms plus super and armored version, 3-4 of each destroid including the Mac II. I have zero interests in Robotech anymore (thanks to Palladium) and the models are taking up too much room and figured I'd see if anyone is looking for some before they hit ebay. Plenty of additional stuff on sprue that's not pictured.
probably $10 for the soldier or guardian veritechs, $15-$20 for rare veritechs & fighters, destroids , pods. Officer pod female armor and Mac IIs I'd need to figure out. (I have 4 more boxes that aren't pictured)
paulson games wrote: They are a lot bigger and also pretty hard to find in large quantities.
Took me over 2 1/2 years to build the collection and a crazy amount of money.
I hear ya on that one. I remeber looking for these when I was in my 20's for RPG and TT gaming purposes. I'm sorry to hear that PB sucked the fun out of RT for you. Your a talented guy and wish you the best. I'm still looking forward to that suit sketch you posted on FB a while ago. Also will you be making mecha in 1/285?
Yes there's a blue battlemaster in that 3rd pic. (Dougram Bigfoot) I have a large collection of the dougram and crusher joe models which make up a good portion of the other unseen mecha from battletech. Between the nichimo models, dougrams, and some fan sculpts I have almost the entire collection of mechs from battletech 3025. I've used these guys in place of the normal 1/285th scale stuff for playing battletech as it's a lot more visually impressive although it is more demanding on space. The 3rd pic also contains a red and blue version of the armored veritech.
The red mech in the 4th pic is Sazabi from Gundam, which is my all time favorite mech design. In that jumble there's a couple other gundam figures and also some armored core stuff. The collection of 1/200 scale mechs is pretty extensive and a bit overwhelming which is why it's time to downsize.
Palladium really soured me on Robotech, which is saying a lot as I was a fan of the show for close to 30 years. They are a bunch of IP squatters that have done nothing with their lisc for decades, sadly I showed them what was possible with a miniatures game but they didn't want to listen to an outsider and obsessive control freak doesn't even begin to describe Kevin. Ninja Division has done some great work but they are caught in a death triangle as even the slightest change or decision has to be run through two other companies before it can be approved or rejected. It's a design for failure in every sense. PB and HG not having the first clue about minis and that is what is causing much of the delays and frustration. I imagine that John from ND is losing hair on a daily basis and what he doesn't lose will be snow white very soon. It's management hell and I am so glad I didn't get tangled in that mess any further than I did. I think ND has done some excellent work but they are continually being sandbagged by Kevin.
It's really sad though, when I approached them I had models for roughly 2/3rd the core units ready for casting but they would have needed metal instead of plastic. I even have 3d models for about half the Mospeada designs finshed. At that time I could have minis flowing and in stores within a 3-4 month window, which would have been back in Sept-Nov 2012 it amuses me that we're in 2014 and they still don't have anything in production. I shudder to think about how long it'll take them to even begin looking at stuff beyond the Macross arc. Of course Kevin/Palladium "knows" how to do things better then everybody else already in the minis industry. ::Shrug::
I seem to remember people commenting on how ND has several projects going on at once. It was commented that they probably just made the mini's and the rest handed off to someone else.
It's clear now from the recent update that is not the case.
They also seem to be having to handle all the crap regarding Relic Knights.
Now I can only imagine how having to finish Relic Knights and then make Mega Man... can't be helping Robotech get released.
Maybe I am wrong, but that seems like a lot of directions to work in at once.
Prior to the KS they had almost everything ready to go it terms of the sculpting. They previewed a lot of stuff at Adepticon and from the miniatures side it looked pretty complete. They have a team of 4-5 working for them and the models don't take all that long to generate, I'm slow at modeling as I'm self taught and I can get a model done in 4-5 days time. Somebody with more formal training in 3d can easily do it in half that time, plus a lot of the robotech designs go very fast since there's so many parts that you can cut and paste between builds. Veritechs for instance are largely the same outside of the head variations so it's very little effort to make the variations once the 1st model is done, same with making guardian and fighter modes. Another advantage is that there's literally decades worth of reference materials to use as a source for the models, when you have drawing galore along with toys and models for reference you can copy those details much faster then when you are creating something brand new from scratch.
If you are taking the time to properly playtest the mechanics and rules it can take a good deal of time, but with a dedicated and experienced team it shouldn't be more than a few months. Back when I did playtesting for WOTC and AEG we'd usually have a 2-3 month window for each game or expansion which was usually plenty of time. It can bog down if you are trying to make something radically different or if your group isn't very focused. Another pitfall is opening the playtesting up to too many people as it generates a very distorted signal to noise factor where you have too many competing ideas, which makes filtering the results into a tangible mass quite difficult.
I have some friends that are full time sculptors that have worked on projects in a similar management situation and they found it to be a complete nightmare. One of my friends was sculpting stuff for starcraft and it had to pass through managers at topps before it went to blizzard, then it might end up back at toops before heading back to the sculptor, sometimes topps would boot it back to blizzard a couple times before the sculptor would get notice of what changes were needed. On his end the sculpt could be done in 2-3 days time and look amazing, but with all the ping ponging back and forth between managers it'd be weeks or even months before a single sculpt met final approval. It ends up disrupting any sort of schedule you might hope to stick to and if you are working primarily as a freelancer it ties up massive amounts of time for no additional pay as you don't want to take on other work that might conflict with it and you are stuck on a holding pattern for long periods of time which quickly eats into your ability to make money.
Add in the fact that most of these items are having prints made which is something neither ND or PB are likely having done in house and that can add several week time for each model as you need to add yet another company into the mix and deal with their schedule and turn around times. That's also for a single print, add several more weeks if any revisions and new prints need to be done.
For the low volume run promo pieces done in metal it's usually a 2 month turnaround with most spincasters before you have product in hand. So you can easily have a single piece take 3 months (or more) even though the sculpt end in theory might only take 2-3 days.
Once you add in plastics it's a very long turn around time, most plastic projects are quoted out a year in advance or more. Pretty much every KS that has used plastics has gone well over a year on the delivery dates due to numerous delays springing up from the production base and overseas shipping issues.
There's a number of things that can be done to streamline the process, but things based on multi company involvements do not favor a timely completion or delivery. The best way to address a project like this is with a singular laser like focus which is simply impossible when you have 3 companies in the mix before involving production phases. If you're scratching your head saying "I don't remember there being a starcraft minis game?" there's a good reason, the 3 pony show ended up delaying things so badly it went way over budget in development and got canned.
I hope the last part doesn't happen. From the way it sounds the game could realistically come out in 2015 instead. Thank you for your incite. I'll be more understanding in the future about tardiness. I say that now, but if this takes all of 2014 it'll suck. But now I'm worried the whole thing will go bust with no minis and maybe not a full refund.
I'm not doom saying about the game, there is a ton of money in place for the game launch, but even really good projects can die the death of a thousand cuts if they are mismanaged enough. Having the two main controlling voices in the party (being PB and HG) may not be the best for the project, while they are looking to make sure that the IP is handled correctly they don't have the background in what makes a good game.
It's like if Harley Davidson suddenly decided they were going to make a miniatures game called War Hogz, they have plenty of money to make it happen but it's really coming out of left field and unless they had somebody with a really good background it gaming it'd probably crash and burn.
The guys at ND have that background and experience, but they are the lowest on the chain of command which IMO is not good. Kevin likes to rely on his inner circle of trusted advisors inside PB, the problem is that they are all pandering yes men and not the "experts" Kevin seems to think they are. If they were up to snuff wouldn't PB be able to hit their own deadlines once in a while? Instead they have a very long track record of projects that have their delays measured not in months but in YEARS. Compound that with the fact all of his "trusted crew" are completely RPG guys with one exception and he's a very casual hobbyst/wargamer. Collectively they have virtually no minis experience and no experience within the miniatures industry yet because they are "in" with Kevin the default value of their ideas/advice outweigh the ideas coming from ND. Guys that actually make a living on miniature games & products.
I think ND has put all the proper stuff into place and has worked their butt off trying to bridge all the weirdness, what remains is determined by the guys with the final call PB & HG.
Also a huge part of getting the game established after launch is the ability to manage their relationship with their customers, something PB has struggled with for a long time. They have a core audience of die-hards that have kept them afloat, but the miniatures crowd is a very different market and not fanatics that will put up with abuse in the way that PB's zealots do. Right now it's looking like it's going to be a fire and forget product which is really a shame as there's a lot of people who love the setting and it can thrive for years if it were supported correctly. (but I think that's beyond PB capacity)
Interesting account but PB being one of "the guys with the final call" doesn't square with Kevin's last update, unless you mean he is just an outright liar.
Manchu wrote: Interesting account but PB being one of "the guys with the final call" doesn't square with Kevin's last update, unless you mean he is just an outright liar.
Hmmm.. I suspect some would say there is a 98% chance of that.
No doubt. But how much of it is hard feelings? And ears made receptive because money is spent with no clear idea of a return? I don't have any particular confidence in PB as rule writers but I don't think they are solely or even mostly behind the delay.
Wait... there's actually words in between all those ® & ™ symbols?
No PB isn't *the only factor* behind the delays, what causes the delays is the disjointed fashion in which all 3 companies need to be in alignment before any forward progress can be made. Even if one member is upholding their end perfectly there's still 2 other entities that can trip up and drag out the process. It may not be intentional but when you have too many cooks and hands in the mix things get messed up.
If you have two people in a three legged race if one person stumbles both get stalled, if you expand that to 3 people doing the same 3 legged race it only compounds the issue. Considering there are easily 4-7 companies involved in this process there 's plenty of opportunities for f-ups. (ND, PB, HG, 3d printer, metal caster, plastic company, stock printer *& binder, packing, shipper) Again not saying that it can't or won't be done but it's a lot of pieces that all need to sync up and when they don't it results in delays. Working with companies overseas also brings on a whole slew of additional complications like language barriers, quality control, and most of all shipping & customs delays.
I can see a lot of areas in which his (well known) controlling nature will create stress points and cause things to lag at times, is it the only area of delays? certainly not, but the "Kevin factor" certainly doesn't help things run any more smoothly.
A lot of his current update centers on: stuff is hung up somewhere, we don't know how or why but were still working and trying to get the log run unjammed and moving again. (which is good) But for a guy like Kevin who is used to having a vice-like grip on micromanaging his company (to death) there are elements in play that he likely finds terrifying as he doesn't like to trust that anyone outside his inner circle can get it done.
Between all those companies that can slow things down there's also the battlfoam bags that aren't even ready yet because there's no models. How long do you think it'll take Romeo to make all those bags?
I hope all those people who are Super Excited For The Game, Unlike The Unbelievers(tm) who ordered Battlefoam Bags aren't too disappointed when their orders ship last due to the delays.
Oh who am I kidding?
They'll probably hold up ALL the orders until they can send them out properly.
Well a significant number of the Battlefoam bags for the much delayed Sedition Wars KS ended up arriving so late at CMON that they gave up offering any 3rd party stuff on their KS
so there's a fair chance some people who ordered bags will find that it causes them sleepless nights
I suspect ND was done long ago and is spending more time on other projects.
Palladium meanwhile is probably going over their stuff with a fine tooth comb and needing most of it explained to them.
Really hope ND has a paid by the hour type of contract because Palladium will nitpick them to death in order to feel they have control.
What has me concerned is an IP that has been so well documented; what would be needed to take longer than a couple hours to approve a proposed model?
For Kevin to not know what are the causes of some of these holdups really makes me think he is in a management death spiral:
- Thinks they are "no good" at what they do, takes control.
- Makes a mess of it, hands it back to them.
- Thinks they are taking too long to fix his mess, takes it back.
- Gets overwhelmed and intimidated of what is going on, hands it back.
- Not wanting a thing to do with the project because he cannot face his failure to "handle it" so is making every excuse to not get involved until he gets his nerve up.
I have seen this before in the micromanagement types and would expect no different.
Joyboozer wrote: Not sure, it seemed like they handed Palladium a working game with 3D sculpts pre kickstarter and just had to finish the extras stuff.
Were these sculpts based off the early renders I remember seeing that had really weird proportions? I vaguely remember a couple destroids being shown where the legs and arms were way too skinny or something.
I wish the poster who called PB would call again. This time he could ask if the BF bags will delay delivery for those that didn't? Because it would piss me off if my order was sitting in the PB warehouse waiting on other people's BF bags.
Heh, I saw your post and immediately thought "oh god, if he posts the more... negative sections of that bit of insight, we're going to have a mess on our hands."
I was concerned my comment about early sculpts was being interpreted as insulting to someone. Not sure who those belonged to...They were ND or PBs, not Paulson's.
Oooh I hope if I'm being quoted on the KS page it's being done entirely out of context and makes me look like I'm totally raging cause that's hot
I didn't see anything there so maybe I got to the party too late and they'd deleted it. :(
Balance: If it was the funky legged render of the Spartan aka BT Archer that's ND's model. The knees on it weren't right but it was a WIP I'm sure and looks to have been fixed since then. The only previews I showed publicly were of the Tomahawk, Defender and some Regult pods. I have a bunch of other completed models but I haven't shared them.
Tuesday was a really long day. Went to work early, took only half my lunchtime and left early. Got home and my little one had his 4th Birthday. Once that was over I had to go teach a class. That ended at 9 pm. After that I headed home and had to see what I needed to do for a few of my classes since classes just started this week. I also had to spend a bit putting some of the kids toys together. After all that I could not resist. That same day my NDA and care package arrived with the Tactics rules in it as well as a bunch of goodies. I had to break out the rules. With my wife sleeping and me with a flashlight in hand or held by my head on the side of my neck I started reading a few pages. The book looks really clean and well written. Nearly 100 pages long with a lot of gorgeous new art. There are many pages detailing out stats on each mecha. You guys are going to love it. I can't wait to adjust my stat cards and print some off so that I and possibly some local friends can play some. Sadly with classes starting this may take a few weeks till I can get around to a game plus my daughters 6th B-day is coming up and that is going to take a weekend away from Robotech use. It's like having a present dangled before your eyes. You can open and look at it but you can't play with it for a while.
LOL, calm down, as we speak I have a email in the works on what my first impressions are to send to PB. Some of the new pics are brand new though and look pretty cool. A good portion of them you have already seen in KS stuff but there are new ones that I like.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And it's not all line art like much of the RPG books.
Interesting that the book would already have art in place as in my experience art is often dependent on the layout being a bit more finalized. Most of the times where I did play testing at WOTC we'd be just working with blank cards and given rules text with no art work or graphics until the very final run. Typically at that point we'd completed all the initial rules testing and on the final pass we'd be looking for typos and editing errors more than rules as those were already hammered out.
So the book with art is encouraging and pretty cool it's in color.
They've been claiming that the book was 'done' for months now, with variations on the theme of 'final ______' being employed.
As for Mike... we're keeping an eye on you.
Gotta be up front buddy, if you show signs of changing we'll have to put you down for your own good.
You'll hate us for that instant, but somewhere in the back of your brain meats, you'll thank us for it.
:-P
It's pretty commonly assumed here and elsewhere that there'll be Day 1 errata and/or a FAQ, so if nothing else/more seriously, hopefully his feedback can be put to good use.
Forar wrote: They've been claiming that the book was 'done' for months now, with variations on the theme of 'final ______' being employed.
As for Mike... we're keeping an eye on you.
Gotta be up front buddy, if you show signs of changing we'll have to put you down for your own good.
You'll hate us for that instant, but somewhere in the back of your brain meats, you'll thank us for it.
:-P
It's pretty commonly assumed here and elsewhere that there'll be Day 1 errata and/or a FAQ, so if nothing else/more seriously, hopefully his feedback can be put to good use.
Hey all, I know there has been a few questions on this but I can confirm for you all that measuring distance for firing and movement is allowed at any time in the game by any player.
Since I had it all out and dated way before I was let in I find that hard to believe. Especially since I've told them they could freely use my ideas and work when we get to another KS for the other generations. I'm not it this for personal gain, although the freebies are nice, I'm in this because this is something I've waited for since I was an 8 years old kid watching cartoons at home.
Interesting that pre-measuring is in this game. Some friends of mine were highly against it during the beta for Malifaux 2.0 (old school Warhammer players, we debated the matter at length, eventually determined it just wasn't that big a deal for the most part), but we play casually enough it probably isn't an issue.
I've long held the stance that I'd rather be beaten through luck of the dice or (preferably) skilled tactics/force selection than win because I can better judge what is 5.9 inches and what is 6.1 inches than my opponent.
I got a hardcover and a mini copy of the Shadow Chronicles, Macoss RPG supplement, New GenRpg Supplement, and a mini Southern Cross book plus Max and Miriya Minis. The latter are what made me the happiest.
Also, beginning to think they had a third run of those figures done, because we've already had a significant number of them pop up through the swag bags, and supposedly they were selling like hotcakes at the conventions.
I mean, unless a bunch somehow didn't end up in ebay resellers hands at the FanFare.
well....they could have ordered more that what was ready in time for the conventions. I remember them saying X amount would be ready for GenCon but on the day they had less ready to sell than anticipated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm just glad I got one of each. I didn't want to pay the $50 each that I saw them selling for on ebay. Now all I need is someone willing to sell some extra Jotun's from their pledge. That is the only mini I did not get.
Mike1975 wrote: Since I had it all out and dated way before I was let in I find that hard to believe. Especially since I've told them they could freely use my ideas and work when we get to another KS for the other generations. I'm not it this for personal gain, although the freebies are nice, I'm in this because this is something I've waited for since I was an 8 years old kid watching cartoons at home.
I just got my hands on Miriya herself. So now I have my exclusive GENCON figures.
When I read your post I could relate to what your going thru as far as reading the rules 
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