Counters as the second SG. like it.
Can't have enough counters ^^

65k Free counters to both pledge levels. I'll take some free counters

Why are people signing up to the $150 option when there are still $145 early birds still available???

 Fenriswulf wrote:
Daedleh, any chance you can forward this up the chain and have them look into it? Currently most people don't use them anyway, so their removal wouldn't be much of a problem.

Thanks for the food for thought Vermis!

Why forward it up the chain when it's already been done

Ooooh you're good Cheers mate, much appreciated!

So looking at the bundles...

undead mega starter army ~130 models
undead starter army ~ 55 models

I would be inclined towards making my own starter box but the math is in the favor of just getting one army for the value of it.

Great that the counters are free but they look like the DZ ones and they were rubbish! The ones from the last KoW and DB KS were fantastic though!

Early birds are gone. I snag the last one!

 GrimDork wrote:
So looking at the bundles...

undead mega starter army ~130 models
undead starter army ~ 55 models

I would be inclined towards making my own starter box but the math is in the favor of just getting one army for the value of it.

If you don't include the price of the rulebook, going strictly off the miniatures cost, it is about even if not costs more (depending on which Starter Army) to go the 2 starter army set. When you compare with the Mega army, then you save anywhere from 15-40 over retail. Granted that will change as they add more things.

One odd thing I noticed unfortunately on their website. When I go to purchase (if it is set to US currency) it can cost me anywhere from $15-30 more than if i just check out in GBP and let Paypal/CC do the conversion for me.

 Fenriswulf wrote:
Why are people signing up to the $150 option when there are still $145 early birds still available???

Happens with every KS.

I don't understand it either.

Their website has done that for a long time, I'm not sure what's going on, or if it's deliberate or accidental/software related.

I'm not sure if we're on the same page DS. Concerning the $150(where you can add 2 starters or 1 mega) pledge OR adding on one mega army vs two starter armies:
You would get 130 undead models for $100, OR 110 undead models for $100. It's not a *huge* difference, but it's there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
^And now it looks like they'll be adding characters to the mega armies too. Definitely seems like the better option over two starters.

overtyrant wrote:
Great that the counters are free but they look like the DZ ones and they were rubbish! The ones from the last KoW and DB KS were fantastic though!

Well it does say "designs to be confirmed"

85K seems a bit steep for a 2 model stretch?

Mantic said in the comments plastic movement trays from Renedra are one of the stretches, or a future add on at least

Okay, that went live sooner than I thought. And funded too!

I know I said I'd probably pass on this, but I think I'm gonna do the rulebook pledge. They're looking pretty delicious

Any indication of what material the heroes will be made out of?

Yes, I am biased, but can I say how much I love Mantic at least always holding true to their "Great games, cheap huge armies" origins.

I was kind of hoping $300 would snag me two 1500pt armies and the rules, for the wife and I...

... instead for $250, it is two 2000pt armies and rules.

Wow... just wow. This makes it soooo hard to even entertain starting Warhammer Fantasy, as the price disparity and apparently quality of rules gulf, are just astronomical.

Vermis wrote:

 Fenriswulf wrote:
Daedleh -

Are they looking into the fact that no one finds taking standards for units worthwhile? All the lists I see have people not bothering to take them. Seemed strange to me, as it's almost a must-include in other game systems.

By 'other game systems' do you mean Warhammer and... uh... Warhammer? Most games I've seen auto-include unit banners by not bothering about them. TBH that's another point: I'd rather Mantic didn't bother about them either. They and musicians are like another GW throwback: a layer of crunch, with minimal, self-cancelling effects, that doesn't quite fit with the streamlined theme of KoW. They're a bit pointless.

Fenriswulf wrote:Actually, you know, dropping the need for banners and musicians entirely is something I could completely get behind for units. That way you can model them if you wish, otherwise you can leave them behind. The Army Standard Bearers could stay around for their bonus', but the unit ones could become merely decorative. I really like that idea.

I disagree entirely. Standards are auto-include for all of my armies; the fact that they help a nerve check even against Shooting makes them infinitely more valuable. I cannot even begin to count the number of times I've successfully avoided being wavered thanks to the Standard's -1 to the opponent's Nerve check against your unit. Musicians only give you a +1 bonus when you're in close combat.

The deals are nice I guess. The problem is for every model that I like or tolerate, there appears to be a model that has assembly issues or just looks terrible. I'm still interested.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Yes, I am biased, but can I say how much I love Mantic at least always holding true to their "Great games, cheap huge armies" origins.

I was kind of hoping $300 would snag me two 1500pt armies and the rules, for the wife and I...

... instead for $250, it is two 2000pt armies and rules.

Wow... just wow. This makes it soooo hard to even entertain starting Warhammer Fantasy, as the price disparity and apparently quality of rules gulf, are just astronomical.

Where did you get 2000 points from?

Going off their free rules on the website, I've totted up a few of the mega-starters and they come to around 1000 points each.

Double post gaff.

Would be cool if they did some terrain for Kings of War.. I know there's a lot of stuff out there but still, it'd be nice.

 NTRabbit wrote:
Mantic said in the comments plastic movement trays from Renedra are one of the stretches, or a future add on at least

Those fit the bill for half of the units (20mm bases), but not for the large based stuff or the cavalry. Some 125x50 trays (cavalry) and 125x100 trays (infantry) would be very popular I think.

 GrimDork wrote:
Their website has done that for a long time, I'm not sure what's going on, or if it's deliberate or accidental/software related.

I'm not sure if we're on the same page DS. Concerning the $150(where you can add 2 starters or 1 mega) pledge OR adding on one mega army vs two starter armies:
You would get 130 undead models for $100, OR 110 undead models for $100. It's not a *huge* difference, but it's there.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
^And now it looks like they'll be adding characters to the mega armies too. Definitely seems like the better option over two starters.

Yeah I've never had an issue with conversion with other websites, but noticed when I was doing comparisons today... unfortunately that means it cost me some extra money that I lost because of it. Oh well, means I just need to be smarter and double check conversions next time.

I wasn't entirely talking purely miniatures count. I was comparing retail prices. I did forget to do $ conversion at the time (been doing too many KS with £), but was looking at straight retail prices if I bought the sets currently from Mantic. I know they will add miniatures in the future, they always tend too and that is when the real value (they tend to get known for) can start to pile on. Yes the value is already in the Mega Starter vs 2 Starter Armie.

2 Undead Starters (110 miniatures) - £74.98 (if you retailed Undead One Player Battle Set) or £84.98
2 Elf Starters (112 miniatures) - £95.96
2 Basilean Starters (86 miniatures) - £114.94

Undead Mega Starter (133 miniatures) - £112.43
Elf Mega Starter (132 miniatures) - £130.91
Basilean Mega Starter (106 miniatures) - £139.93



Automatically Appended Next Post:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I was kind of hoping $300 would snag me two 1500pt armies and the rules, for the wife and I...

It just started, give it a few days and stretch goals as they always add to their packages.

 GrimDork wrote:
I'm not sure if we're on the same page DS.

You actually were. He was comparing the two pledges to retail value and saying that the Mega Army gives more of a discount than two of the Starter armies.

I WANT MANTIC DINOSAURS.

Even if I have to get multiple Blaine's slice them off, and put new riders, I want me some dino riding cavalry. SERIOUSLY.

I would happily ditch my lazy looking lizards that my current lizardmen cavalry consists of.

Ahh yeah, coffee hadn't settled in, you were (probably more intelligently) going by retail value where I was going off of raw model count.

If nobody beats me to it, I'm gonna have to do a current edition breakdown of the arm(y/ies) that I'd be inclined to get. For points, I mean.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From DS's analysis... the basileans are in the lead, too bad I don't care for the men at arms. Or well the aesthetic in general, I always preferred the gritty empire style for human armies.

 GrimDork wrote:
If nobody beats me to it, I'm gonna have to do a current edition breakdown of the arm(y/ies) that I'd be inclined to get. For points, I mean.

Currently working on a spreadsheet with that, comparing pledges, points and price actually.

 Dark Severance wrote:

 GrimDork wrote:
If nobody beats me to it, I'm gonna have to do a current edition breakdown of the arm(y/ies) that I'd be inclined to get. For points, I mean.

Currently working on a spreadsheet with that, comparing pledges, points and price actually.

You are a gentleman and a scholar.

Mega Armies
Undead - 795
Elves - 1190
Dwarfs - 1175
Orcs - 715
Abyssal Dwarfs - 850
Goblins - 775
Basileans - 1130
Ogres 1115

Starter Armies
Undead - 305
Dwarf - 640
Elves - 770
Orcs - 385
Abyssal Dwarfs - 405
Goblins - 325
Basileans - 520
Ogres - 520

Those are using current points or the new points?

Is kings of war big in the states? I can't work out why a UK company would operate the kickstarter in dollars

Cheers for the calculations Daedleh. But also worth noting that by the time you get your army and rulebook some of the points values will have changed, ranged units will be cheaper and cavalry more expensive for example. But for comparisons sake we only have the current points to go by.

 judgedoug wrote:
Those are using current points or the new points?

Current, new points won't be done until the rules tweaks are locked in.

ahzek wrote:
Is kings of war big in the states? I can't work out why a UK company would operate the kickstarter in dollars

It depends. For instance, my group has abandoned Warhammer Fantasy (and at least two of the three FLGS have discontinued carrying it). However, nearly everyone in my group plays Kings of War.

Mantic has always done their KS in dollars.

Longstrider wrote:You could just wrap it into the statline of irregular skirmisher/militia type units that their nerve stat is lower

In some games, skirmishers are immediately removed if they make base contact with formed troops. (Not that I'm suggesting anything!)

Yonan wrote:Up!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/kings-of-war-fantasy-battle-game-2nd-edition

Hmm. Fitty quid minimum pledge. I might just wait to peruse the free download, if they put one up.

I think I'm a tad too paranoid, but this looks inspired by the "buy this mahoosive glossy hardback rulebook and then buy the the rules all over again. Y'know, for convenience!" trend of GW. (among others)

Thraxas Of Turai wrote:Hands up who wants 40 Basilean Men at Arms!

*sits firmly on hands*

No, scratch that.

*cuts hands off*

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:and funded

Blimey.

GrimDork wrote:This was linked in the kickstarter comments:

Spoiler:

Oh lawdy the derpy bunny hands. Bane of dinosauria since Joseph Leidy uttered to himself "say, this Hadrosaurus thingy probably walked on two legs!" Not to mention the Arnold Schwarzenegger pumpkin-deltoids on a non-humanoid and the M. C. Escher spearhead, among other things.

Mantic, does your concept artist use any reference beyond 90's comics? One or two of the Basileans (and various animal mounts) might've been set on a slightly different path, otherwise.

Fenriswulf wrote:Yeah sorry, hope I didn't step on your toes

Not at all. I honestly didn't think I was being clear, in my snarky dismissal of the GW concept. (One of the things that helped put me off 40K/WHFB was that I really hate deciding which of a zillion little options to plug into a unit, and I'm skeptical about what kind of butterfly effect they actually have.)

ahzek wrote:
Is kings of war big in the states? I can't work out why a UK company would operate the kickstarter in dollars

Mantic's KS account was set up using the original US KS site before the UK KS site existed they would have to set up a new account to price in £ (their previous history that they have built up wouldn't show on the new account). Plus it's more of a psychological thing the majority of KS backers (in general not necessarily for Mantic KS) are still US based and like to see KS in dollars many won't back if it's in another currency.

ahzek wrote:
Is kings of war big in the states? I can't work out why a UK company would operate the kickstarter in dollars

Maybe something to do with KS being a US company? If they collected money in UK pounds, converted to US dollars to go to Kickstarter and then converted back to pounds for Mantic that would lead to a lot of fees? I have no knowledge if that is how it works though. I assume it also appeals to US backers more if it is in their home currency, and with the dollar being relatively weak against the pound it is no great issue for those in the UK either.

As for the popularity of KOW in the US you would have to look at the miniature selling companies over there. The fact that Miniature Market seem to be dropping KOW (or at the very least heavily discounting it) seems a little worrying, I have no knowledge of other such Stateside sellers. As for the ruleset some people, as shown by Judgedoug and his group, may be playing it but that may well involve some GW/Other companies models as well.

I'd be in for some terrain.

And maybe some hard plastic minis.

I'll admit to being shocked at how well Mantic continues to do with this things while sticking to 'restic'...

Realistic or not, that dinosaur Blaine is riding is far better looking than the derpy cold ones my lizards have been lolling around on for the past few years.

 Alpharius wrote:
I'd be in for some terrain.

And maybe some hard plastic minis.

I'll admit to being shocked at how well Mantic continues to do with this things while sticking to 'restic'...

Maybe most people don't have a problem with it?

Sure, there's some vocal opponents that are regulars on Dakka, but for every Azazel "gotta burn it all" X, there's probably 100 others that are happy with it (and the price tag that comes with it).

Restic isn't the great evil some make it out to be it's fine for low model count games but I wouldn't want to do a load of rank and file in it.


it would seem Mantic agrees

Creator Mantic Games 8 minutes ago

@ lord_blackfang - for Board Games that plastic is great, but for games where you want lots of troops hard plastic is better for core units

 DaveC wrote:
Restic isn't the great evil some make it out to be it's fine for low model count games but I wouldn't want to do a load of rank and file in it.

Exactly!

High model count armies in Mantic's 'restic' = nightmare time!

 Alpharius wrote:
I'd be in for some terrain.

And maybe some hard plastic minis.

I'll admit to being shocked at how well Mantic continues to do with this things while sticking to 'restic'...

Alpharius if you don't already own KoW then I imagine you will be very happy with the $50 pledge, at least. The rules are great and easily adaptable to many periods (I've played historicals with them), and it looks like they're already coming with "freebies"
- Disrupted/Disordered Counters
- Wavering Counters
- Spell Effect counters
- Objective markers
- Turn Counter
- 1 Arc of sight template
- Ruler


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vermis wrote:

Hmm. Fitty quid minimum pledge. I might just wait to peruse the free download, if they put one up.

Wrong currency!

 Alex C wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Yes, I am biased, but can I say how much I love Mantic at least always holding true to their "Great games, cheap huge armies" origins.

I was kind of hoping $300 would snag me two 1500pt armies and the rules, for the wife and I...

... instead for $250, it is two 2000pt armies and rules.

Wow... just wow. This makes it soooo hard to even entertain starting Warhammer Fantasy, as the price disparity and apparently quality of rules gulf, are just astronomical.

Where did you get 2000 points from?

Going off their free rules on the website, I've totted up a few of the mega-starters and they come to around 1000 points each.

You know what? I am DEEPLY disturbed by this... Let me explain.

JUST yesterday, I was looking up army bundles on Mantic's web-store. They had until literally yesterday been selling bundles they call "Mega Army Bundles" that advertised as being a 2000pt army for around $175.

Silly me, when I see the KS offering "Mega Army Bundles" for $100 I assumed they were the same and was incredibly impressed by the 40%-ish savings, thus why I came here to immediately praise them.

Imagine my shock when you rightly point out that these "Mega Army Bundles" are suddenly half the size (or less), AND the real bundles have vanished from their webstore.

I love Mantic, am grateful for many of the opportunities they've given me, and love them as individual folks... but without explaination this move is extremely bad form on their part and makes me reticent to back.

Edit: Just wanted to mention that something is definitely odd, as I can still find the "huge" army bundles on the Mantic site by going through the faction sub-menus, BUT the descriptions no longer mention the armies being full 2000pt armies, when I can say with 100% certainty that they did when I read them just yesterday.

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/undead/product/malaks-endless-hordes-mega-army-141-figures.html

So, the discrepancy is in how they're touting the points... or something?

 Alpharius wrote:

 DaveC wrote:
Restic isn't the great evil some make it out to be it's fine for low model count games but I wouldn't want to do a load of rank and file in it.

Exactly!

High model count armies in Mantic's 'restic' = nightmare time!

And that's really only true of the Basilians, which have their own problems.

The Restic works great for large models such as cavalry, Ogres, Trolls, etc. It's not ideal, but way better than metal for larger models.

Even with Hardplastic, though, mantic's success rate is questionable. The only really unqualfied successes are the Undead skeletons, ghouls, and zombies, and the Dwarf Warmachines. The Elves (entire range), the Undead catapult, and the men at arms are pretty bad, while the rest are pretty meh.

To be fair, the KS bundles are all labeled as "starters"...

There's still plenty of army bundles on their website. Not sure which ones were removed, but the ones I see are all good value.

 Polonius wrote:

Even with Hardplastic, though, mantic's success rate is questionable. The only really unqualfied successes are the Undead skeletons, ghouls, and zombies, and the Dwarf Warmachines. The Elves (entire range), the Undead catapult, and the men at arms are pretty bad, while the rest are pretty meh.

The Deadzone Zombies, Enforcers and Peacekeepers show they have solved the hard plastic problems they had (of course the original sculpt has to be good to begin with, the best hard plastic sprue in the world won't improve a bad sculpt)

I've been told that there won't be any restic in this campaign. Only hard plastic or metal.

Speaking of hard plastic, lower abyssals are in the last update:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/kings-of-war-fantasy-battle-game-2nd-edition/posts/1051768

 Vermis wrote:
Oh lawdy the derpy bunny hands. Bane of dinosauria since Joseph Leidy uttered to himself "say, this Hadrosaurus thingy probably walked on two legs!" Not to mention the Arnold Schwarzenegger pumpkin-deltoids on a non-humanoid and the M. C. Escher spearhead, among other things.

That was a bit cruel. But bonus points for picking up on the "M.C. Escher spearhead."

Ain't nothing wrong with Mantic's original dwarf sprues. I liked them!

So Lower Abyssals, Magi and Succubi in hard plastic off to a good start. I hope they don't all have that gurning smile though.

Lower Abyssals will get two handed weapons at some point too.

 Vermis wrote:

Hmm. Fitty quid minimum pledge. I might just wait to peruse the free download, if they put one up.

That's $50 USD, not pounds, so it's 30 quid for a hardcover rules + lists + fluff book and a softcover rules and lists only book

I also dispute the assertion that the hard plastic Elves are objectively bad. I quite like them.

 NTRabbit wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

Hmm. Fitty quid minimum pledge. I might just wait to peruse the free download, if they put one up.

That's $50 USD, not pounds, so it's 30 quid for a hardcover rules + lists + fluff book and a softcover rules and lists only book

And apps and counters...

 DaveC wrote:
So Lower Abyssals, Magi and Succubi in hard plastic off to a good start. I hope they don't all have that gurning smile though.

Lower Abyssals will get two handed weapons at some point too.

Looks a bit like a cross between a GW goblin and a Genestealer. Mantic demons = Goblins with ovipositors, I guess.

More like Mantic Demons = Medieval Devils.

Full update

Update #4 Nov 14 2014

Dark Forces Rising

Kings of War’s newest army is here!

The Force of Abyss list is getting revamped for the new edition – and with it comes a model range for the first time. We’re going to be spending some time nailing the core of the army so we’re posting up a few goals at once so you can see what’s coming initially for these horny devils.



Work in progress art.

You’ll notice that on the Starter and Mega-Starter graphics, the Abyssal army is currently blanked out. We’ll flesh these out as we go along hitting these goals.

If you’re super confident of beating these, you could go ahead and pledge for an additional army now - remember you don’t make your choices on armies until after the campaign has finished, which gives us plenty of time to get them funded.

And if we don’t break them all, you can always choose something else … but we’re a long way from that, so let’s check out what these goals are!

$110,000 – NEW! Lower Abyssals

A numberless horde, these red-skinned demons of the Abyss make up the footsoldiers of the Abyssal forces. Some arm themselves with crude close combat weapons with which to lay waste to the enemy in brutal close combat. Others shoot flames from their hands and use tooth and claw to rend their enemies. All are utterly lethal – a nightmare legion marched straight from the depths of hell, intent only on death and destruction.



If we hit this goal, we will fund a unit of hard plastic Lower Abyssals. This core infantry unit will form the foundation of your Abyssal armies, and come with a variety of weapons and heads.







You can add a unit of 20 Lower Abyssals to your pledge for $15.

A unit of 20 will be included in the Forces of the Abyss Starter ($50) and a unit of 40 Forces of the Abyss Mega Starter army ($100) which you add-on to your pledge, or choose as part of a pledge of God of War.

$120,000 – Lower Abyssal Magi

If we hit this goal, we will upgrade the Lower Abyssals to make an alternative unit with ranged attacks.



This is a unit choice that is new to the army, and the upgrade to the hard plastic sprue will provide even greater choice and variety in both your miniatures collection and how you configure your force.

You can add a unit of 20 Lower Abyssals, which can also be made into Magi, by increasing your pledge by $15.

10 additional Lower Abyssals will be included in the Forces of the Abyss Starter ($50) and 20 get added to the Forces of the Abyss Mega Starter army ($100) which you can choose as part of a pledge of God of War, or add-on to an existing pledge.

After that we’ll look at creating a hero to lead your force, and a second core hard plastic unit: the Succubi!

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Mantic's web-store. They had until literally yesterday been selling bundles they call "Mega Army Bundles" that advertised as being a 2000pt army for around $175.

It depends. The named armies all vary in points cost. I don't believe the Mega Armies have a points cost listed.

For example

1700 points - http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/elves/product/the-guardians-of-ithris-135-figures.html
2700 points - http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/elves/product/lord-athuens-retribution-186-figures.html
1800 points - http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/orcs/product/graks-skull-taker-horde-ultimate-orc-army-deal-155-figures.html
1500 points - http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/dwarfs/product/thorgersons-storm-of-steel-135-figures.html
2000 points - http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/dwarfs/product/stelanskars-guard-166-figures.html
2000 points - http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/undead/product/the-bloodmire-legion-179-figures.html

Good to see them going for hard plastic to start with for these,

(and fortunately I'm not keen on the aesthetic, but when they do Succubae who knows I may crack)

I wanted something to use for Pink Horrors that was cheaper and better looking and they managed that in the first couple of hours


Looks like the stretch goals are heading towards bulking up the army deals. Kind of like Dreadball, the initial pledge levels are kind of meh, but will probably have a ton of models by the end.

I like the renders. They look like a medieval depiction of a devil put into a computer game, and for me it works.

 RobertsMinis wrote:
a medieval depiction of a devil put into a computer game

I don't know about the medieval part (more like Halloween costume, I'd say), but the computer game part is spot on. Nearly all of Mantic's stuff seems heavily influenced by the cartoonish computer game style (e.g., WoW).

 Manchu wrote:

 RobertsMinis wrote:
a medieval depiction of a devil put into a computer game

I don't know about the medieval part (more like Halloween costume, I'd say), but the computer game part is spot on. Nearly all of Mantic's stuff seems heavily influenced by the cartoonish computer game style (e.g., WoW).

Look at Devils in Medieval art. Very much the style Mantic has used.

 Alex C wrote:
Look at Devils in Medieval art. Very much the style Mantic has used.

Do you just mean the idea of a red humanoid with hooves and horns?

Kickstarter is looking great so far, nothing but metal characters and hard plastic units, and we know the hard plastic will be good quality.

I do have 3 huge unassembled KoW armies to sort out already though, so will either be skipping this, getting the $50 pledge or just buying any KS exclusives.

 Manchu wrote:

 Alex C wrote:
Look at Devils in Medieval art. Very much the style Mantic has used.

Do you just mean the idea of a red humanoid with hooves and horns?

Yes. I'd say this was more likely the inspiration than "Goblins with an ovipositor", as someone put it...

 scarletsquig wrote:
Kickstarter is looking great so far, nothing but metal characters and hard plastic units, and we know the hard plastic will be good quality.

I do have 3 huge unassembled KoW armies to sort out already though, so will either be skipping this, getting the $50 pledge or just buying any KS exclusives.

*ahem* you may wish to check out the KoW rules committee forum...

In for the $50 books for the time being, very reasonable price with the current exchange rate to the UK and I like to help bump up the total pledge amounts rather than wait. Not sure whether I'll go in for an army yet as I already have so much unmade stuff - come on Mantic, sell it to me!

 scarletsquig wrote:
Kickstarter is looking great so far, nothing but metal characters and hard plastic units, and we know the hard plastic will be good quality.

I do have 3 huge unassembled KoW armies to sort out already though, so will either be skipping this, getting the $50 pledge or just buying any KS exclusives.

Ah I didn't realise they were going to be plastics, that's definitely a bonus!

 Alex C wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Alex C wrote:
Look at Devils in Medieval art. Very much the style Mantic has used.

Do you just mean the idea of a red humanoid with hooves and horns?

Yes. I'd say this was more likely the inspiration than "Goblins with an ovipositor", as someone put it...

Oh, calm down, that was just a joke. The Medieval devil reference is obvious. And highly inspired, too. So much less generic and more imaginative than Games Workshop's four ruinous powers.

 Vermonter wrote:
The Medieval devil reference is obvious. And highly inspired, too. So much less generic and more imaginative than Games Workshop's four ruinous powers.

I really hope this is sarcasm. I don't want to go too far afield here (especially with the unfortunate if inevitable GW comparisons) but Mantic's demon design is about as lazy and obvious as possible.

Great deal on the books, however.

 Vermonter wrote:

 Alex C wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Alex C wrote:
Look at Devils in Medieval art. Very much the style Mantic has used.

Do you just mean the idea of a red humanoid with hooves and horns?

Yes. I'd say this was more likely the inspiration than "Goblins with an ovipositor", as someone put it...

Oh, calm down, that was just a joke. The Medieval devil reference is obvious. And highly inspired, too. So much less generic and more imaginative than Games Workshop's four ruinous powers.

I like it and am glad they didn't just clone GW stuff like they have done with most of their other products.

 Daedleh wrote:
Mega Armies

Starter Armies

 GrimDork wrote:
If nobody beats me to it, I'm gonna have to do a current edition breakdown of the arm(y/ies) that I'd be inclined to get. For points, I mean.

It isn't completed yet. I was just working on layout. I wanted to make it so it would be easy to update and could be used to create a quick calculation of points with options for an army list. Simply listing the current point values is a bit misleading because depending on what options you take, you can change the point value. Now granted this is only using current costs (when we get new points, I will update it). I also will update when something is updated to the pledge level. For example I started listing with Elves, added in the Elf Mage-Queen.

Let me know if anyone thinks this will be useful, suggestions for enhancements or changes. Glancing back over I should probably add additional troop quantities. I think I will make a separate sheet for an Army Builder, keep the Army Points as the master list, the Pledge List to show current options and then design a new sheet to be used for Army Building that will let people select from a drop down or something. I wish this was in a CSV somewhere (probably is, but didn't look) it would make the data mining easier.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/119xpuoyyRgchUBZYHQftuXLBkUCwqZAETBvWKw5-oJE/edit?usp=sharing

Edit: Currently the 'KS Pledge Options' tab points is off, as I was testing adding in additional options to points. As I add in more it will become a locked static, then require point changes to be done on Army Builder tab.

 Daedleh wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Kickstarter is looking great so far, nothing but metal characters and hard plastic units, and we know the hard plastic will be good quality.

I do have 3 huge unassembled KoW armies to sort out already though, so will either be skipping this, getting the $50 pledge or just buying any KS exclusives.

*ahem* you may wish to check out the KoW rules committee forum...

Ooooh. Perfect timing considering how broke I am currently!

Not sure if I'm allowed to share the details, but the short of it is Mantic = awesome.

 judgedoug wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Mantic's web-store. They had until literally yesterday been selling bundles they call "Mega Army Bundles" that advertised as being a 2000pt army for around $175.

It depends. The named armies all vary in points cost. I don't believe the Mega Armies have a points cost listed.

For example

1700 points - http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/elves/product/the-guardians-of-ithris-135-figures.html
2700 points - http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/elves/product/lord-athuens-retribution-186-figures.html
1800 points - http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/orcs/product/graks-skull-taker-horde-ultimate-orc-army-deal-155-figures.html
1500 points - http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/dwarfs/product/thorgersons-storm-of-steel-135-figures.html
2000 points - http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/dwarfs/product/stelanskars-guard-166-figures.html
2000 points - http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/undead/product/the-bloodmire-legion-179-figures.html

Thanks for the clarification Doug. Still... isn't it slightly concerning that the KS "Mega Armies" are apparently roughly half the size, for slightly more than half the price... essentially making the KS in its current state a bad deal versus just ordering from Mantic directly, today?

KS has "mega starters".

And if you order from their website, the more you order, the bigger the discount. Seems entirely logical to me.

Besides that, it's a mantic KS; it's safe to say most deals will get sweetened at least a little before this is over

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
2700 points - http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/elves/product/lord-athuens-retribution-186-figures.html

Thanks for the clarification Doug. Still... isn't it slightly concerning that the KS "Mega Armies" are apparently roughly half the size, for slightly more than half the price... essentially making the KS in its current state a bad deal versus just ordering from Mantic directly, today?

Looking at for example the Elves (Lord Athuen's Retribution 2700pts) you are comparing a $233 army to a $100 army. Not to mention the KS just started, as more things get unlocked more units will get added to pledge levels (like the Elf Mage-Queen 130-150pts). A good chunk of points come from the heroes.

I can understand it being a bit worrisome because someone can purchase a 2700 point army ($233) vs 1180 point army ($100). If they wanted to get the missing pieces, it would be $161 to make up the rest of that army. If the option you were looking for was to get a 2700 point army. So right now there is some value in buying direct (granted we are also throwing out the costs of the hardback rulebook). Some of the armies do better than others deal-wise currently though. It is one of the reasons I'm working on a spreadsheet to better track army points, value as well as to help with army building (granted that is also assuming all army point values stay the same with the next version).

Again though the KS has just started so there will be quite a few additions coming still. It is way too soon to start worrying yet.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Thanks for the clarification Doug. Still... isn't it slightly concerning that the KS "Mega Armies" are apparently roughly half the size, for slightly more than half the price... essentially making the KS in its current state a bad deal versus just ordering from Mantic directly, today?

Half the size points or dollar wise? I'd be very surprised if the KS army bundles (that have the rulebook and such, which the site bundles do not have) are a worse value for the money than the bundle deals Mantic has on the site

@ NewTruthNeomaxim -

Not really sure how you're doing the math.

The army deals on the website haven't altered - they're mot even products, they're just bundles.

The deals on the Kickstarter are different. They are mega starter armies. The armies linked in the posts above aren't mega armies either, they're just bundles.

The deals on the KS compare favourably with the website, with stretch goal rewards still to add in.

Finally, points are changing in the next edition, so it's not really a fair comparison.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

Hmm. Fitty quid minimum pledge. I might just wait to peruse the free download, if they put one up.

Wrong currency!

Hmm. Thurdy quid minimum pledge. I might just wait to peruse the free download, if they put one up.

These look like better day 1 deals than both DS and DBX offered

 RobertsMinis wrote:
I like the renders. They look like a medieval depiction of a devil put into a computer game, and for me it works.

...as drawn, from those toothy grins, by Phil Folglio...

I see Devels in most of those pictures, and I'm half expecting to see Aahz show up as an Abyssal wizard...

Valete,

JohnS

 NTRabbit wrote:
These look like better day 1 deals than both DS and DBX offered

Hmmm given the huge discounts we've seen on these products I'm not so sure. Also $40 Aussie shipping hurts!

Yeah for us the shipping hurts, but for those with free shipping I think these deals look better on day 1 than the last few projects

 Vermis wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

Hmm. Fitty quid minimum pledge. I might just wait to peruse the free download, if they put one up.

Wrong currency!

Hmm. Thurdy quid minimum pledge. I might just wait to peruse the free download, if they put one up.

Touche! Haha they also are now coming with a pile of templates and tokens and whatnot. Disrupted/Disordered Counters, wavering Counters, Spell Effect counters, Objective markers, Turn Counter, 1 Arc of sight template, Ruler

 Vermonter wrote:

That was a bit cruel.

Yes, I know. But I'm not disposed to be kindly about professional artists seemingly completely hemmed in by a handful of pop-culture tropes, styles and designs that were already quite dubious when they first turned up over twenty years ago.
It's maybe not as excruciating as the lizardmen cold ones, as someone said, but 'better than saurus cav' isn't a high bar to aim for, or saying much. 'Jes Goodwin's cold ones' might be a better one. I still have the WD with his design notes, although they're a couple of paragraphs on one page. Dinos aren't his specialty, and he states he wasn't trying to design a hyperaccurate one, but he looked and thought a bit further than screenshots of the Jurassic Park 'raptors'.

Here's more: Looking at the abyssal concepts and renders posted up in the meantime, I'm glad the sculptor gets digitigrade legs, at least. Even if you don't understand or much care about the biological reasons, imagine walking about on a pair of legs that are almost completely folded up...

Judgedoug: Fair enough! I was still looking forward to a pledge for the mini rulebook rather than a relative splurge, tho.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Kickstarter is looking great so far, nothing but metal characters and hard plastic units, and we know the hard plastic will be good quality.

Wait - what?

Everything in this KS is hard plastic aside from metal characters?

Really?

 Alpharius wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Kickstarter is looking great so far, nothing but metal characters and hard plastic units, and we know the hard plastic will be good quality.

Wait - what?

Everything in this KS is hard plastic aside from metal characters?

Really?

He's totally fibbing.
The books are paper

 Alpharius wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Kickstarter is looking great so far, nothing but metal characters and hard plastic units, and we know the hard plastic will be good quality.

Wait - what?

Everything in this KS is hard plastic aside from metal characters?

Really?

I think he means new units funded. Previously existing PVC stuff (trolls in the orc and goblin army sets etc) will remain PVC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vermis wrote:

Judgedoug: Fair enough! I was still looking forward to a pledge for the mini rulebook rather than a relative splurge, tho.

I wouldn't be surprised if the mini rulebook was an add-on for a few dollars. Pledge $1 so you get updates! Honestly they pretty much give away the mini rulebooks, I have had in my possession like 8 or more mini rulebooks and give them away to people interested in the system. Same with the Warpath rulebooks.

 Alpharius wrote:


Wait - what?

Everything in this KS is hard plastic aside from metal characters?

Really?

Everything new by the looks of it. If it's been done it restic already it will stay that way for now and the older hard plastics such as M@A won't be updated here.

I doubt the larger new stuff (like the Molochs) will make it into hard plastic so some restic is to be expected which is fine in larger miniatures that generally are fielded in low numbers.

That's the Lower Abyssals locked and loaded.

So it looks like we will be spending the 1st chunk of this campaign funding the Abyssals. I suppose they will try to flesh them out to the point of the other army deals, and then jump to forces of nature or something that.

I think Abyssals, then a few characters or units for existing armies, then the Nature Boys/Girls/things

decker_cky wrote:

 NTRabbit wrote:
Mantic said in the comments plastic movement trays from Renedra are one of the stretches, or a future add on at least

Those fit the bill for half of the units (20mm bases), but not for the large based stuff or the cavalry. Some 125x50 trays (cavalry) and 125x100 trays (infantry) would be very popular I think.

I use a lot of the Renedra ones, but I'd welcome larger ones. Not too chuffed about the shipping on this one. $15 for just the books? That's 30%, which is worse than most places that charge for percentages. They must be holding off on the $1 pledge level until later. Get people down now for $50 or $150, I guess.

Remember the shipping has to cover multiple waves

existing stuff, book and new stuff (since they're not loading extra shipping for add ons)

You can pledge $1, select "no reward" and still get into the PM, apparently.

 Azazelx wrote:
$15 for just the books? That's 30%, which is worse than most places that charge for percentages. They must be holding off on the $1 pledge level until later. Get people down now for $50 or $150, I guess.

I believe they're counting on more freebies at the $50 level unlocking.

 Alex C wrote:
You can pledge $1, select "no reward" and still get into the PM, apparently.

Ah, I was wondering where that was. When I saw no pledge level for $1 I was confused.

 .Mikes. wrote:

 Alex C wrote:
You can pledge $1, select "no reward" and still get into the PM, apparently.

Ah, I was wondering where that was. When I saw no pledge level for $1 I was confused.

Yeah, there's no $1 reward level, but you can still pledge just $1.

 Alpharius wrote:

 DaveC wrote:
Restic isn't the great evil some make it out to be it's fine for low model count games but I wouldn't want to do a load of rank and file in it.

Exactly!

High model count armies in Mantic's 'restic' = nightmare time!

Agreed, but honestly, I really don't even want to deal with Restic for low model count games. I like the sculpts in DZ for my rebs and Forgefathers, but that's the only reason I'm not trading the restic figs right away. I'm going to watch this KS closely. There's a few units I'd like to own in polystyrene. If they get made in hard plastic, I'll add them to my pledge. Otherwise, I'm just going to stick to plastic.

Restic units almost always cost more per-fig and I just refuse to spend more for an inferior product.

Quick question for you KoW players- what are Orcs like? Any good? I figured I may as well get an Orc army since I'm getting a great deal of them in Dungeon Saga..

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Remember the shipping has to cover multiple waves
existing stuff, book and new stuff (since they're not loading extra shipping for add ons)

I mean the rulebook-only pledge. That's one wave.

For other stuff, it's more understandable. To an extent. Except that if you're ordering an existing army off Mantic (like the ones shown earlier), they'll mail it to you post-free, rather than for $40.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 judgedoug wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
$15 for just the books? That's 30%, which is worse than most places that charge for percentages. They must be holding off on the $1 pledge level until later. Get people down now for $50 or $150, I guess.

I believe they're counting on more freebies at the $50 level unlocking.

I can't see that many freebies for the $50 rules-only level, to be honest. The counters for example are rubbish (I have the DZ ones) and they look a lot nicer in photos than in-hand. I'll stick to using dice for wound counters and disrupted.

To be clear - if I were in the US or UK where the shipping is free, it'd be a much more appealing deal. The difference in shipping is pretty bad here, though - especially as a UK-based company I can easily get any of their stuff for retail-10% (at minimum) with free shipping. (Remember, their UK prices are better than their US prices). If I were making a huge order, sure. But then again, it's almost all existing stock (which would be free postage) or a $40 surcharge on the new stuff So wait for retail (and get it faster - maybe?) and free postage anyway...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Quick question for you KoW players- what are Orcs like? Any good? I figured I may as well get an Orc army since I'm getting a great deal of them in Dungeon Saga..

Orcs are a good army in KoW. If you like the Mantic figures, they're even better!

I like the devils. They remind me of Diablo imps. Looks like I am on board for the Abyssal mega army so far.

 Azazelx wrote:
Orcs are a good army in KoW. If you like the Mantic figures, they're even better!

Looks like the Blackrock clan will rise up in Mantica....

I like the body designs, but I hate the faces. If I get these, I'm replacing them with bloodletter heads.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Quick question for you KoW players- what are Orcs like? Any good? I figured I may as well get an Orc army since I'm getting a great deal of them in Dungeon Saga..

Remember to check out the existing retail armies. They're also very good prices, though lack the "elite" units I'm seeing in the KS armies.

Thanks to everyone who're working on the point values and army lists!

The Abyssals have always given me a Diablo vibe too.

I'll be a happy camper if they end up including all those possible pieces on the sprue as well.

They also mentioned in the comments that the DS Abyssals will most likely be totally different sculpts, so that's a good thing for those of us who sprang for both.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Quick question for you KoW players- what are Orcs like? Any good? I figured I may as well get an Orc army since I'm getting a great deal of them in Dungeon Saga..

A bit of a glass hammer really. Their infantry is rock solid with Crushing Strength (1) and Defence 5 (most infantry won't get Crushing Strength with a Defence as high as 5), and their elites have CS2. Their units are relatively cheap and rely on overwhelming the enemy through high numbers of rock hard infantry. They have access to some faster units, such as Gore Riders and Chariots which again come in large numbers.

They also have one of the best units in the game - the Winged Slasher. Get that guy behind enemy lines and he will kill a regiment or horde every single turn with a rear or flank charge. Every player to go up against one will only ever make the mistake of letting it behind lines once - and they'll remember that it killed half their entire army by itself after that. Just the threat of one on a flank can screw over an enemies battle plan.

When an Orc battleline hits yours, it hurts. In terms of melee damage, Orcs score a massive 11/10 on the scale of 1 being a light tickling by a pansy elf, to 10 being OHMYGODWERESOSCREWEDANDGOINGTODIEHORRIBLY.

They have two main weaknesses though; next to no shooting and low nerve. They don't have any war engines. They have very few archers. They don't have a wizard/shaman (though that may change with 2nd ed). They don't have any way of really attacking anything, or at least putting significant damage on it, without getting up in its face and murdering it with hundreds of axes. Their low nerve can be a struggle. This means that even though they're defence 5 and take less damage than most races, when they do then they will run away quicker. Glass hammer. If you hit, you will absolutely destroy them. BUT, a cunning enemy can dance around you with faster units while whittling you down with ranged firepower.

ced1106 wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Quick question for you KoW players- what are Orcs like? Any good? I figured I may as well get an Orc army since I'm getting a great deal of them in Dungeon Saga..

Remember to check out the existing retail armies. They're also very good prices, though lack the "elite" units I'm seeing in the KS armies.
Thanks to everyone who're working on the point values and army lists!

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/orcs/product/garlaks-barbarous-horde-mega-army-96-figures.html

I have stayed away from Mantic KS in the past. I have to admit, I am ready to jump on this one. The fact that the armies will ship before the new books make this seem an attractive purchase. I have admired the Abyssal Dwarfs since I saw them at Adepticon a few years ago.

I might go for the Dwarfs and the Abyssal Dwarfs . It don't like the dwarf heads but I could always get some Drakkarim heads from the Forgefathers and spruce them up.

Hard plastic demons might also tempt me. Come on Mantic, don't Men At Arms this one.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I like the body designs, but I hate the faces. If I get these, I'm replacing them with bloodletter heads.

If not for how much of a hassle the chains would be, the Maniac look would be a nice approach.

So, I jumped in on this kickstarter because I was on at the right time for an early bird.

I imagine I'll either drop out later on though, or at least, drop down to just the hardback book and assorted individual models.

I have to say that the the high ROW shipping absolutely kills this campaign for me, im not a fan of the Abyssals and i already own a massive amount of KOW models so right now i'm only interested in a few of the new hero models. But if Mantic actually expects me to pay a total of $40 shipping if i happen to pledge more than $50 on a handful of metal models that will easily fit into a small padded envelope then i'm simply not going to waste my time or money on this kickstarter.

Sadly it seems like Mantic have tailored the ROW shipping costs exclusively around people purchasing multiple large army deals while completely screwing over anyone who is only interested in a smaller pledge.

Probably will end up at just the books and any attractive add-on-Wednesday goodies. Though the abyssals are looking better and better.

I'm curious about going in on this and picking up some starter armies, especially as more of their stuff is going into hard plastic. I used to have a VC army that used their ghouls and zombies.....and their plastics are fantastic. However, the Deadzone stuff I got was garbage (restic is soooo bad). I've heard the KoW rules are fantastic, so that is a draw to go in as well.

I really do like their Abyssal Dwarves, but the other army I was interested in (Kingdoms of Men), doesn't seem to have any future plans for models. It would be really nice if Mantic just worked something out with the Perry Brothers and put together some sort of Army deal with some of their War of the Roses Archers/Billmen/Foot Knights. I would probably go in on this then.

As it stands I'll probably wait and pick up the rules down the road and If I like them pick up an Abyssal Dwarf and Perry Kingdoms of men army.

Any word on whether there will be hard plastic fantasy terrain at any point in the campaign?

I believe the response to the terrain question has been "sorry, not this time".

So probably in a forthcoming campaign. Remember, this one was supposed to be just the books, and then maybe the Abyssals and Nature armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Gutsy wrote:
I have to say that the the high ROW shipping absolutely kills this campaign for me, im not a fan of the Abyssals and i already own a massive amount of KOW models so right now i'm only interested in a few of the new hero models. But if Mantic actually expects me to pay a total of $40 shipping if i happen to pledge more than $50 on a handful of metal models that will easily fit into a small padded envelope then i'm simply not going to waste my time or money on this kickstarter.
Sadly it seems like Mantic have tailored the ROW shipping costs exclusively around people purchasing multiple large army deals while completely screwing over anyone who is only interested in a smaller pledge.

I'm basically in agreement, but barring any exclusives, you're probably better off getting any metal heroes, etc once they hit retail anyway. They were the least competitive (with retail) items in their last few KS campaigns.

Anyway, it's slightly more than $15/$40 shipping when you consider that US and UK backers have "free shipping" factored into the KS pledge prices, unless anyone thinks that internal US/UK shipping is free from RM/UK couriers/USPS/UPS...

I'm new to KoW so I'm looking at getting 2 starter armies to try it out with but I'm not sure the kick starter is worth it. Looking at the current 2 player starter set the Undead part is exactly the same while the Orc one is a bit rubbish. The 2 player set is £50 and can be gotten cheaper while the kickstarter is $100 extra after the books which is ~£60. I don't really need both a small and big rulebook either.

Presumably there will be a new 2 player set with the new rules at some point although it might have races I might like less. Maybe it's worth waiting patiently or just getting the currently set, I'm not really sure?

durecellrabbit wrote:
I'm new to KoW so I'm looking at getting 2 starter armies to try it out with but I'm not sure the kick starter is worth it. Looking at the current 2 player starter set the Undead part is exactly the same while the Orc one is a bit rubbish. The 2 player set is £50 and can be gotten cheaper while the kickstarter is $100 extra after the books which is ~£60. I don't really need both a small and big rulebook either.

Presumably there will be a new 2 player set with the new rules at some point although it might have races I might like less. Maybe it's worth waiting patiently or just getting the currently set, I'm not really sure?

I had the same thought but the Abyssal's just look too good to pass up right now.

durecellrabbit wrote:
I'm new to KoW so I'm looking at getting 2 starter armies to try it out with but I'm not sure the kick starter is worth it. Looking at the current 2 player starter set the Undead part is exactly the same while the Orc one is a bit rubbish. The 2 player set is £50 and can be gotten cheaper while the kickstarter is $100 extra after the books which is ~£60. I don't really need both a small and big rulebook either.

Presumably there will be a new 2 player set with the new rules at some point although it might have races I might like less. Maybe it's worth waiting patiently or just getting the currently set, I'm not really sure?

Keep an eye on it anyway. They tend to add a reasonable amount of value to their KS, though I'm not sure how that would work with their predefined army deals. Still, you're in the UK so postage is sweet, and you have a couple of weeks to decide. Or even pledge $1 and make your final call in January or later.

 Azazelx wrote:

durecellrabbit wrote:
I'm new to KoW so I'm looking at getting 2 starter armies to try it out with but I'm not sure the kick starter is worth it. Looking at the current 2 player starter set the Undead part is exactly the same while the Orc one is a bit rubbish. The 2 player set is £50 and can be gotten cheaper while the kickstarter is $100 extra after the books which is ~£60. I don't really need both a small and big rulebook either.

Presumably there will be a new 2 player set with the new rules at some point although it might have races I might like less. Maybe it's worth waiting patiently or just getting the currently set, I'm not really sure?

Keep an eye on it anyway. They tend to add a reasonable amount of value to their KS, though I'm not sure how that would work with their predefined army deals. Still, you're in the UK so postage is sweet, and you have a couple of weeks to decide. Or even pledge $1 and make your final call in January or later.

Fair enough. If I'm prepared to wait for a new starter set I can wait to see if the value of the kickstarter improves.

 primalexile wrote:
I had the same thought but the Abyssal's just look too good to pass up right now.

Are you referring to the Abyssal Dwarves? I keep checking to see if the Abyssal army has pics up as they hit stretch goals but I haven't seen anything.

 Ahtman wrote:

 primalexile wrote:
I had the same thought but the Abyssal's just look too good to pass up right now.

Are you referring to the Abyssal Dwarves? I keep checking to see if the Abyssal army has pics up as they hit stretch goals but I haven't seen anything.

No sir, I am referring to the Daemons. Check the updates for the concept art of the Deamons, the abyssal dwarves look pretty awesome themselves.

durecellrabbit wrote:
I'm new to KoW so I'm looking at getting 2 starter armies to try it out with but I'm not sure the kick starter is worth it. Looking at the current 2 player starter set the Undead part is exactly the same while the Orc one is a bit rubbish. The 2 player set is £50 and can be gotten cheaper while the kickstarter is $100 extra after the books which is ~£60. I don't really need both a small and big rulebook either.

Presumably there will be a new 2 player set with the new rules at some point although it might have races I might like less. Maybe it's worth waiting patiently or just getting the currently set, I'm not really sure?

If you're unsure you could just wait it out. These aren't one-ff projects and the rule books and any newly funded miniatures will be available at retail. Or you could pledge $1 and see what happens and, if you decide to go with it, add the pledges to the pledge manage after Christmas. Although I don't know if any stretch goals would be included in those post KS add ons.

They've said that the pledge manager monies will still count towards add-ons, and also "we know it's Christmas, so feel free to just pledge a dollar and bump it up after the new year" - so pretty friendly on both accounts there.

 Azazelx wrote:
They've said that the pledge manager monies will still count towards add-ons, and also "we know it's Christmas, so feel free to just pledge a dollar and bump it up after the new year" - so pretty friendly on both accounts there.

So we could just pledge a dollar and do the $150 deal after the new year?

 Ahtman wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
They've said that the pledge manager monies will still count towards add-ons, and also "we know it's Christmas, so feel free to just pledge a dollar and bump it up after the new year" - so pretty friendly on both accounts there.

So we could just pledge a dollar and do the $150 deal after the new year?

Yeah, Mantic does all their KS like that. As long as you get a dollar in you will get the pledge manager and be allowed to get anything you want through that.

I'm wondering if we might see any kits for larger units, like that winged slasher that was mentioned earlier. That'd be neat.

I saw the remark about no terrain *THIS* campaign. Makes me hopeful we'll see some in the future then.

Incidentally, anyone know where those buildings came from on the KS page? I recognize those huts on the back of the board (seeing as I own some), but I'm curious about the buildings on the right.

They were in the original KoW rulebook. From the Credits page:

"Scenery
Tabletop World, Battlefront, Gale Force Nine, Architects fo War, Chris Straw. All scenery from theauthor's personal collection."

For fence sitters like me who hate restic, which of the army bundles contain the least? The mantic plastics I have from one of the crazy boxes are great but I'd also heard some of the more recent ones like the men at arms are pretty poor.
Lastly is there any artwork for the forces of nature around, I had a quick google but didn't find anything official.

I'd put my money on the elves and the undead having mostly plastics.

I put in a token $1. I'm heading to Japan in a few weeks and won't have the money to throw at a full army. I'll probably grab some Abyssals though when they inevitably put up sprues as add-ons.

RichS wrote:
For fence sitters like me who hate restic, which of the army bundles contain the least? The mantic plastics I have from one of the crazy boxes are great but I'd also heard some of the more recent ones like the men at arms are pretty poor.
Lastly is there any artwork for the forces of nature around, I had a quick google but didn't find anything official.

My dwarf army have virtually none IIRC. Hard plastic and metal the whole way, bar the Brock riders. Same for the Elf army had, although that had no drakons or cavalry, so I can't speak for that.

The ogres are fully restic, I believe, but restic is perfect for such large models, and I love them.

Nature artwork is pretty thin on the ground right now. Models wise so far there are only these two character models:



Then from the KoW supplemtn this for salamanders:



And then some odds and ends from the Dungeon Saga KS:





As an aside, I don't know who the artist is for the last one but I love their style. They also did my favourite image of an Enforcer:

If the abyssal army doesn't get my money, the elf army deals are both looking pretty solid too. I think the smaller set is closer in nature to half of the larger one than some of the other forces, though the mega-starter does come with the palace guard and the new character.

Kind of burnt on mass-painting well... anything, it's almost tempting to aim for the lower value dual starters just for variety lol.

Also, if those Salamanders make it into hard plastic... squeee!

For those of you new to KOW/ Mantics Fantasy Line here is a list of what materials the units in the mega armies (and thus the starter armies, which have the same units) are made from.

Key:
HIPS =Hard Impact Plastic Sprues
RP =Resin Plastic (sometimes referred to as restic)
HYB =Hybrid metal and plastic.
M =Metal.



Hope that is of help to somebody.

So for Rich S I would say avoid the Basileans and Abyssal Dwarfs, the Orcs (only big minis and cavalry)/Elves and Dwarfs would be your best bet.

I'm afraid of what Alpharius might say to me if we get to the point where Salamander hard plastic sprues might become a reality.

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
For those of you new to KOW/ Mantics Fantasy Line here is a list of what materials the units in the mega armies (and thus the starter armies, which have the same units) are made from.

Key:
HIPS =Hard Impact Plastic Sprues
RP =Resin Plastic (sometimes referred to as restic)
HYB =Hybrid metal and plastic
M =Metal.

Spoiler:

Undead Mega Starter Army:

40 Skeletons =HIPS
20 Ghouls =HIPS
40 Zombies = HIPS
10 Wraiths =RP
3 Werewolves =RP
20 Revenants =HIPS

Dwarf Mega Starter Army

40 Ironclad =HIPS
40Ironclad =HIPS
20 Shieldbreakers =HIPS
10 Brock Riders =RP
2 Ironbelchers =HIPS
1 Bombard =HYB

Elf Mega Starter Army

10 Stormwind Cavalry =RP
40 Archers =HIPS
40 Spearmen =HIPS
20 Palace Guard =RP
2 Bolt Throwers =HIPS
20 SCouts =HIPS

Orc Mega Starter Army

40 Orc Ax =HIPS
3 Trolls =RP
10 Goreriders =RP
20 Greatax =HIPS
3 ORC Chariots =RP (HIPS Crew)
1 Fight Wagon =RP (HIPS Crew)

Abyssal Dwarf Mega Starter Army

40 Immortal Guard =RP
10 Gargoyles =RP
10 Halfbreeds =RP
2 Angkor Mortars =HYB
3 Lesser Golems =RP
10 Slave Orcs =HIPS (slaver and beasty are HYB).

Goblin Mega Starter Army

20 Spitters =HIPS
20 Rabble =HIPS
20 Sharpsticks =HYB
10 Fleabags =RP
6 Trolls =RP
2 Mincers =RP
2 War Trombones =M

Basilean Mega Army

40 Men at Arms (Droopy HIPS)
20 Paladins =RP
10 Knights =RP
20 Panther Lancers =RP
10 Sisters =RP
6 Elohi =RP

Ogre Mega Starter Army:

6 Ogre Shooters =RP
12 Ogre Warriors =RP
3 Ogre Chariots =RP
40 Red Goblins =HIPS
1 Ogre Hero =RP

Hope that is of help to somebody.

So for Rich S I would say avoid the Basileans and Abyssal Dwarfs, the Orcs (only big minis and cavalry)/Elves and Dwarfs would be your best bet.

You, sir, are a legend

May well be going for an Abyssal mega army... The Orcs are not quite as fun looking as the whfb versions and I don't feel like some of the unit filler pieces I would want to create for them would be fitting

Abyssals on the other hand can still have plenty of fire and hell portals etc

Any news on the rules and play style of Abyssals?

Also, can the salamander picture above get spoilered? It does not resize on my tablet so it makes this page almost impossible to read

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I'm afraid of what Alpharius might say to me if we get to the point where Salamander hard plastic sprues might become a reality.

Are you afraid it would be a hug?

Droopy HIPS

Wat?

 Ahtman wrote:

Droopy HIPS

Wat?

Men at Arms aren't the droopy ones, they're the ones with a gakky circle pattern instead of ringmail because of a fuckup translating a cad file, and because Mantic didn't read the contract properly before signing it. They're fine for filler, but if you're a stickler for fine detail you might want minis from someone else in the front rank.

I think the Goblins were the droopy ones, some kind of weird error that made a bunch of them look all droopy and melty that I think they fixed in later runs.

Quick question for Orlando - Any chance of doing a thing for the OP where the retail value of each of the starter and mega armies is listed as more things get added to them?

Just curious about which ones are the best value, the abyssal starter seems to be worth quite a lot now considering that its $50 and is getting $25 worth of gargoyles added along with all the other stuff.

I do wish I had the time to keep a running total myself, this KS is getting really fun and is everything the first KS should have been - Taking a single army and doing it really well in hard plastic rather than lots and lots of restic.

I really think I'll end up getting the Abyssals from this KS assembled before the Basileans from the first KS which I just gave up on.

Champion locked in, Succubi next at $150k



10 added to the starter and 20 added to the mega starter army.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Quick question for Orlando - Any chance of doing a thing for the OP where the retail value of each of the starter and mega armies is listed as more things get added to them?

Just curious about which ones are the best value, the abyssal starter seems to be worth quite a lot now considering that its $50 and is getting $25 worth of gargoyles added along with all the other stuff.

I do wish I had the time to keep a running total myself, this KS is getting really fun and is everything the first KS should have been - Taking a single army and doing it really well in hard plastic rather than lots and lots of restic.

I really think I'll end up getting the Abyssals from this KS assembled before the Basileans from the first KS which I just gave up on.

I haven't really got time to do the adding & calculating for that either at the moment, sorry,

but if somebody else here does one I'll add it to the OP (or if I find one in the KS comments I'll add that too)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and from the comments why the ROW shipping is so much more than previous mantic KS

Creator Mantic Games about 1 hour ago

@ SquishyD - it's closer to what it actually costs. There are going to be multiple shipments too. Some of the Mars Attacks shipping was horrific, we've vastly undercharged and in a lot of cases, probably lost money. So we've had to charge a bit more.

@ SquishyD - we ship so much more to the UK and US, that we get special rates. So few orders go out to Asia and the postal companies keep on putting the rates up and up. And like we said, there's multiple shipments. It's not really "touch luck" - we held it low for as long as could.

so it looks like all you Australians etc with big boxes of stuff were a net loss to Mantic (like most EU backers were for Reaper in the Bones I KS)

Given my order was $750 and in one shipment, I'm sure they still made a tidy profit on it.

They could probably save a lot of money on international shipping (especially to AU) if they just managed to pack the items correctly and not screw up so many orders. Which then requires a second box to be sent out.
Like mine, every time.

As someone who lives in not-Mainland UK, I don't get the problem with more expensive shipping. I have to pay extra all the time and there are many UK company's who won't ship certain items to Northern Ireland (albeit they tend not to be miniature companies).

Anyway, I'm liking the growth in the Abyssal Army so far.

Now that I can't argue with

(though reports say Mars attacks has generally been better, fingers crossed the improvements continue)

 Daedleh wrote:
Champion locked in, Succubi next at $150k



10 added to the starter and 20 added to the mega starter army.

That does look pretty sweet. Maybe I'll just have a little look at the starter armies

I'm glad to see that the price per model is the same for the Succubi as for the Lesser Abyssals.

I want everyone to be happy, so if getting to the Salamanders in HIPs makes people happy...

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I'm afraid of what Alpharius might say to me if we get to the point where Salamander hard plastic sprues might become a reality.

Yeah!

Where's that blue lizard from? Looks better than the red 'un.

The $15 for 20 deal seems better than the army deal for the demons.

For $45, you can get 40 lesser and 20 Succubi.

The army is $50 for 30 lesser, 10 succubi and 10 gargoyles. I know there's some restic vs plastic there, but the other set has only new models, the other set avoids restic and the other set has significantly more models.

Makes me think there might be one more demon set to be added to the starter (or possibly a variant build adding 10 more succubi).

 Vermis wrote:
Where's that blue lizard from? Looks better than the red 'un.

One of the Soul Calibur video games.

They still need a cavalry and large infantry unit, so Demonic Hounds and Molochs are likely to feature at some point.

There's a lot more to come for them, every Abyssal unit in the Dungeon Saga KS is a safe bet.

I'm just hoping we can get to some Nature stuff.

I wonder just how many plastic kits they are planning for the Abyssals 2 have been announced, then there is the Abyssal Warriors which also seem like a candidate for HIPS. The Molochs will most likely be restic, hellhounds and effrits restic or metal. Tortured souls seem like something you could kit bash using ghouls/zombies and the magi parts from the lower abyssal set.

I'm actually quite shocked out how cheap this game is - $100, with the very reasonable exchange rates to the UK at the moment, comes to £63. With free shipping, a whole army.. hmm, now the problem is sourcing some moderately artistically talented slaves to paint the things

Has anyone 'in the know' heard whether a lot of this stuff is already designed/CAD sculpted, and is just waiting for stretch goals? I assume that's the case for the Abyssal army, is it the same for the nature force?

I think all of the recent plastics (deadzone stuff including the sci-fi zombies) have been CAD sculpted. I imagine the same will be done here.

I often get the feeling that a lot of Mantics designs would be a lot better of with another round of concept design. It is like they have some interesting ideas, but don't carry them through fully. Like the dwarfs, they have stated some intersting things about the armour and the helmets, but give them stupid shields.

The abyssals look good. But I also love Dungeon Keeper.

As I'm stupidly lazy and can't read 15 pages....

Are these hard plastic or Restic?

The new Abyssals will be hard plastic.

Can someone with game experience help me out with something?

I'm going into this KS with, oh... $500-700 of Mantic credit left, and want to come out of this with, probably, three large armies...

I don't know how force-organization works, per se... but hypothetically is their value in doubling up on Mega-Army Bundles? IE, if I get two Dwarf Mega Armies, can I end up fielding and gaining value from all of the 2nd bundle at roughly 2000pts...? Or, is it like 40k (sorry, I know, rubbish comparison, but it is my only experience at higher model count mini gaming), where i've maxed out whatever "slots" those cannons go into, thus leaving me with unusable extras?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Can someone with game experience help me out with something?

I'm going into this KS with, oh... $500-700 of Mantic credit left, and want to come out of this with, probably, three large armies...

I don't know how force-organization works, per se... but hypothetically is their value in doubling up on Mega-Army Bundles? IE, if I get two Dwarf Mega Armies, can I end up fielding and gaining value from all of the 2nd bundle at roughly 2000pts...? Or, is it like 40k (sorry, I know, rubbish comparison, but it is my only experience at higher model count mini gaming), where i've maxed out whatever "slots" those cannons go into, thus leaving me with unusable extras?

If you get two Dwarf mega armies you'll be able to field everything, as the current rules are. This might change, but I very much doubt that.

As it is now, for each "solid" unit you take, one slot for hero/war machine opens up. So you're good

So are there multiple bodies for the demons/succubi? If its just that one pose (hands at side), those are going to be really static looking armies...

@NewTruth

To further Asop, there is no Force Org Charts in KoW like WHF or 40k, the only real restriction is as mention above is that for every War-Engine or Hero (some big monsters are classed as heroes) you take you need to have a "solid" unit,
this is normally a "Regiment" and above to Horde units, things like Large Cavalry and Large Infantry can be taken as troops but still class as "solid" and give you access to one Hero or War-engine as well.

Currently Regiments/solid units break down as follows for most armies:
20 Infantry - Elf Archers, Zombies, Orc Greataxs, Lower Abyssals etc
10 cavalry - Gore Riders, Dark Nights etc
3 Large Cavalry - Abyssal Riders, Orge Chariots etc
3 Large Infantry - Orges, Werewolves etc

I can't forsee any of this changing in the new rules so there is currently a decent level of value in doubling-up the army bundles, hope that helps.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
So are there multiple bodies for the demons/succubi? If its just that one pose (hands at side), those are going to be really static looking armies...

There will be more dynamic posing. The concept art is just that; concepts.

 Rolt wrote:

@NewTruth

To further Asop, there is no Force Org Charts in KoW like WHF or 40k, the only real restriction is as mention above is that for every War-Engine or Hero (some big monsters are classed as heroes) you take you need to have a "solid" unit,
this is normally a "Regiment" and above to Horde units, things like Large Cavalry and Large Infantry can be taken as troops but still class as "solid" and give you access to one Hero or War-engine as well.

Currently Regiments/solid units break down as follows for most armies:
20 Infantry - Elf Archers, Zombies, Orc Greataxs, Lower Abyssals etc
10 cavalry - Gore Riders, Dark Nights etc
3 Large Cavalry - Abyssal Riders, Orge Chariots etc
3 Large Infantry - Orges, Werewolves etc

I can't forsee any of this changing in the new rules so there is currently a decent level of value in doubling-up the army bundles, hope that helps.

Thanks man. That sounds like a TERRIFIC and streamlined way to go Force-Organization.

From everything i'm hearing, it sounds like I should expect to say that often in comparing KoW to WFB.

 Pacific wrote:
I'm actually quite shocked out how cheap this game is - $100, with the very reasonable exchange rates to the UK at the moment, comes to £63. With free shipping, a whole army.. hmm, now the problem is sourcing some moderately artistically talented slaves to paint the things

Has anyone 'in the know' heard whether a lot of this stuff is already designed/CAD sculpted, and is just waiting for stretch goals? I assume that's the case for the Abyssal army, is it the same for the nature force?

Since they've shown renders for (some of) the lesser Abysals that lot have been started

but no renders for the Hero/Mage/Succubae suggest these have only had concept art done (or they'd show renders)

Happy to see Mantic getting back to HIPS after all the restic. I just hope it's good quality HIPS (ie. that they've changed provider from the Goblin and Men at Arms debacles).

I will wait and see. Happy to buy at retail if they're good, not happy to put down money without seeing the sculpts though.

 Da Boss wrote:
Happy to see Mantic getting back to HIPS after all the restic. I just hope it's good quality HIPS (ie. that they've changed provider from the Goblin and Men at Arms debacles).

I will wait and see. Happy to buy at retail if they're good, not happy to put down money without seeing the sculpts though.

Well, they are at least showing concept sculpts of the lower abyssals, and the plastic quality has increased substantially, going by their recent sci-fi zombies.

Da Boss: go see the recent Enforcer and Peacekeeper models in the Sci Fi thread. Those should alleviate your fears. Their new HP stuff is really good-same quality as their early undead (which hasn't met any complaint that I've ever seen).

 Da Boss wrote:
Happy to see Mantic getting back to HIPS after all the restic. I just hope it's good quality HIPS (ie. that they've changed provider from the Goblin and Men at Arms debacles).

I will wait and see. Happy to buy at retail if they're good, not happy to put down money without seeing the sculpts though.

Jump into the Mantic sci fi thread and you'll see photos of their most recent attempts at hard plastic, the Enforcer and Peacekeeper sprues from Deadzone

Beaten

Pro-Tip: On KS comments, do not even jokingly ask a question which compares KoW to WFB. :-p

I was curious as to why KoW seems to have analogs for every flavor of WFB unit, but then has very few "large" beasties/war-machines, etc even though Dungeon Saga just ensured a few huge kits would be produced.

Needless to say, people were quick to point out the different priorities between the two systems. :-p

To my defense, it will be a LOT easier to spend a mountain of dosh on this KS knowing the minis could serve as an army for two different game systems, but it sounds like moving a KoW army to WFB will still require a few outside purchases from GW for models that Mantic just doesn't do.

 Rolt wrote:

@NewTruth

To further Asop, there is no Force Org Charts in KoW like WHF or 40k, the only real restriction is as mention above is that for every War-Engine or Hero (some big monsters are classed as heroes) you take you need to have a "solid" unit,
this is normally a "Regiment" and above to Horde units, things like Large Cavalry and Large Infantry can be taken as troops but still class as "solid" and give you access to one Hero or War-engine as well.

Currently Regiments/solid units break down as follows for most armies:
20 Infantry - Elf Archers, Zombies, Orc Greataxs, Lower Abyssals etc
10 cavalry - Gore Riders, Dark Nights etc
3 Large Cavalry - Abyssal Riders, Orge Chariots etc
3 Large Infantry - Orges, Werewolves etc

I can't forsee any of this changing in the new rules so there is currently a decent level of value in doubling-up the army bundles, hope that helps.

There might be a few small changes to force org but nothing extreme or that would stop you from using two of the elf armies doubled up. We've not set the rules in stone yet, but unless you're taking an absolutely extreme army (drakon spam, or artillery spam) then you won't be affected - the changes will be to only stop the absolute extremes. It's still the same concept of solid units unlocking slots and you will still be able to take any "core" units you like. We certainly don't want to invalidate anyones army unless they were really taking the , and even then they'd just need to do a bit of rejigging.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 Rolt wrote:

@NewTruth
To further Asop, there is no Force Org Charts in KoW like WHF or 40k, the only real restriction is as mention above is that for every War-Engine or Hero (some big monsters are classed as heroes) you take you need to have a "solid" unit,
this is normally a "Regiment" and above to Horde units, things like Large Cavalry and Large Infantry can be taken as troops but still class as "solid" and give you access to one Hero or War-engine as well.

Thanks man. That sounds like a TERRIFIC and streamlined way to go Force-Organization.

From everything i'm hearing, it sounds like I should expect to say that often in comparing KoW to WFB.

Note that also the allies rules are really loose. Every army has an affiliation. Good/Neutral/Evil. God allies with Good and neutral, Evil allies with evil and neutral, Neutral allies with Good OR Evil, but not at the same time. To take allies, all you have to do is follow the rules posted earlier about core units allowing the addition of heroes and monsters.

This really allows you build the army you want to build. Whether incorporating an old army in to KoW, or creating a unique army or just being able to paint up an interesting unit (from Mantic or not) and work it into your army. One of my favorite things about KoW.

Thanks Daedleh. Didn't realize you were a Mantic guy. I don't suppose we know one another? To be fair, i'm usually just a remote guy, working through Greg Smith. :-p

Incidentally, I don't suppose you could answer my questions re: "big kit" style center-piece models? Again, not looking to turn the game into "better WFB: The Rules", but including profiles for one-off, impressive center-piece models would be fun.

And as I said in the comments, there is sort of a precedent as Tyrant of Halpi and that big undead monster are incoming as of the Dungeon Saga KS.

Mega Army Values (based on mantic website as best I can, NOT online discounters or bundle deals, please check the value for yourself before backing!)

Undead £107.44

Dwarf £138.32

Elf £143.91

Orc £142.43 (approx.)

Abysal Dwarf £132.42

Goblin £143.90

Basilean £146.92

Ogre £119.43

Forces of the Abyss £ 59.99

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Incidentally, I don't suppose you could answer my questions re: "big kit" style center-piece models? Again, not looking to turn the game into "better WFB: The Rules", but including profiles for one-off, impressive center-piece models would be fun.

It's something Mantic want to do, and it's really just a case of not being able to do everything at once.

"When", not "if "

 Baragash wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Incidentally, I don't suppose you could answer my questions re: "big kit" style center-piece models? Again, not looking to turn the game into "better WFB: The Rules", but including profiles for one-off, impressive center-piece models would be fun.

It's something Mantic want to do, and it's really just a case of not being able to do everything at once.

"When", not "if "

Well, isn't the 2nd Ed. book the perfect time to include those profiles in army lists?

God... wouldn't that be irony... if I used GW models as proxies until Mantic could release theirs? ;-)

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Incidentally, I don't suppose you could answer my questions re: "big kit" style center-piece models? Again, not looking to turn the game into "better WFB: The Rules", but including profiles for one-off, impressive center-piece models would be fun.

It's something Mantic want to do, and it's really just a case of not being able to do everything at once.

"When", not "if "

Well, isn't the 2nd Ed. book the perfect time to include those profiles in army lists?

God... wouldn't that be irony... if I used GW models as proxies until Mantic could release theirs? ;-)

Heh, about half of the armies in my group are Warhammer armies repurposed. No reason that they can't be used in both.

Most armies in the group are a mix of figures from all over - Reaper, Avatars of War, GW, Mantic, even some ancient Grenadier. (In the case of my dwarfs.)

Undead seems to be where Mantic is used most - their plastic undead are pretty sweet.

The Auld Grump

Starter Army values so far (based on mantic website as best I can, NOT online discounters or bundle deals, please check the value for yourself before backing!)

Undead £42.46

Dwarf £45.46

Elf £55.45

Orc £52.46 (approx)

Abyssal Dwarf £52.46

Goblin £51.46

Basilean £57.46

Ogre £40.97

Force of the Abyss £21.84

remember folks, pounds are not us dollar
Kickstarter prices are 100$ and the mega armies listed a few posts ago are 110-150 POUNDS.

150 pounds are roughly 235$

Orlando wouldn't the Forces of the Abyss (as unlocked to date) be £37.48 or there abouts - 30 Lower Abyssals/Magi £14.99 for 20 in plastic so £22.49 for 30? (they don't seem to do sets of 10 so I just halved the 20 box cost) plus 10 Gargolyes at £14.99

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Incidentally, I don't suppose you could answer my questions re: "big kit" style center-piece models? Again, not looking to turn the game into "better WFB: The Rules", but including profiles for one-off, impressive center-piece models would be fun.

It's something Mantic want to do, and it's really just a case of not being able to do everything at once.

"When", not "if "

Well, isn't the 2nd Ed. book the perfect time to include those profiles in army lists?

God... wouldn't that be irony... if I used GW models as proxies until Mantic could release theirs? ;-)

Heh, about half of the armies in my group are Warhammer armies repurposed. No reason that they can't be used in both.

Most armies in the group are a mix of figures from all over - Reaper, Avatars of War, GW, Mantic, even some ancient Grenadier. (In the case of my dwarfs.)

Undead seems to be where Mantic is used most - their plastic undead are pretty sweet.

The Auld Grump

We've got weird groups around here.

Most 40k players, for example, represented all ages, genders, etc... and are very casual in terms of WYSIWYG, Forge-World, etc... and yet there is one local game-shop with the crazies who demand 100% WYSIWYG or they will damn near flip-tables, while also telling you which of your models are unfairly OP while theirs are obviously always fine.

In terms of WFB, the local player-base seems to be sadly the later in mind. They are almost exclusively an older group of grognards who will laugh you out of the store if you show up with even one non-GW model. And as the sole local Mantic guy, it falls on me to build/start Mantic game communities in our part of New York. Hell, I had to give away, out of my own pocket (well... Mantic credit), dozens of Dreadball teams just to build and retain the maybe six-eight player group I now maintain.

I'm pretty sure the Forces of The Abyss army deals will grow over the coming stretch goals until it is comperable to the other army deals.

Can't believe TGN hasn't even had a news piece about this yet. I submitted an article just now.

 DaveC wrote:
Orlando wouldn't the Forces of the Abyss (as unlocked to date) be £37.48 or there abouts - 30 Lower Abyssals/Magi £14.99 for 20 in plastic so £22.49 for 30? (they don't seem to do sets of 10 so I just halved the 20 box cost) plus 10 Gargolyes at £14.99

While they probably will end up as 20 Lower Abyssals/Magi for £14.99

at the moment the only actual price point I have is the KS price 20 for £9.57 ($15) (+ £5.11 ($8) for the Champion which is added to the mega army only ) which is what basing the numbers on

I could add estimated post KS costs for this force if folk think it's a good idea?

So the sprued plastic is for one army only? I will have to pass then :(

Decide what you're interested in and ask and folk can tell you what the material is for the units in that deal

most will be a mix of sprued plastic and restic, with a bit of metal throw in too,

but
some like the undead and elves are mainly sprued
some like the ogres are mainly restic

Would be either the undead or goblins tbf. Although I've seen mantic goblins.....

Undead, I'll go for undead. Is there restic in the mega army?

Two pages earlier in this thread

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
For those of you new to KOW/ Mantics Fantasy Line here is a list of what materials the units in the mega armies (and thus the starter armies, which have the same units) are made from.

Key:
HIPS =Hard Impact Plastic Sprues
RP =Resin Plastic (sometimes referred to as restic)
HYB =Hybrid metal and plastic
M =Metal.

Undead Mega Starter Army:

40 Skeletons =HIPS
20 Ghouls =HIPS
40 Zombies = HIPS
10 Wraiths =RP
3 Werewolves =RP
20 Revenants =HIPS

Dwarf Mega Starter Army

40 Ironclad =HIPS
40Ironclad =HIPS
20 Shieldbreakers =HIPS
10 Brock Riders =RP
2 Ironbelchers =HIPS
1 Bombard =HYB

Elf Mega Starter Army
10 Stormwind Cavalry =RP
40 Archers =HIPS
40 Spearmen =HIPS
2 Bolt Throwers =HIPS
20 SCouts =HIPS
20 Palace Guard =RP

Orc Mega Starter Army
40 Orc Ax =HIPS
20 Greatax =HIPS
3 ORC Chariots =RP (HIPS Crew)
1 Fight Wagon =RP (HIPS Crew)
3 Trolls =RP
10 Goreriders =RP


Abyssal Dwarf Mega Starter Army
40 Immortal Guard =RP
10 Gargoyles =RP
10 Halfbreeds =RP
2 Angkor Mortars =HYB
3 Lesser Golems =RP
10 Slave Orcs =HIPS (slaver and beasty are HYB).

Goblin Mega Starter Army
20 Spitters = HIPS
20 Rabble = HIPS
20 Sharpsticks =HYB
10 Fleabags =RP
6 Trolls =RP
2 Mincers =RP
2 War Trombones =M

Basilean Mega Army
40 Men at Arms (Droopy HIPS)20 Paladins =RP
10 Knights =RP
20 Panther Lancers =RP
10 Sisters =RP
6 Elohi =RP

Ogre Mega Starter Army:
6 Ogre Shooters =RP
12 Ogre Warriors =RP
3 Ogre Chariots =RP
40 Red Goblins =HIPS1 Ogre Hero =RP

Hope that is of help to somebody.

So for Rich S I would say avoid the Basileans and Abyssal Dwarfs, the Orcs (only big minis and cavalry)/Elves and Dwarfs would be your best bet.

Cheers! Should whack that in the OP

The Wraiths are super models, I wouldn't worry about what material they are in. The Werewolves need a bit of love when prepping but look great when painted.

Disclaimer. I don't mind restic, in fact, I would say that to a certain degree I actually like working with it - I find cleaning and prepping models very relaxing (through I have raged quit on the odd restic model). I don't think it is the evil that some people make it out to be.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
Would be either the undead or goblins tbf. Although I've seen mantic goblins.....

Undead, I'll go for undead. Is there restic in the mega army?

To be fair - the wraiths aren't bad. They predate their first KoW KS. The werewolves aren't bad either, though it depends if you like their particular aesthetic. If they add undead cavalry later, they're also "good" restic - and again predate the bad stuff from the first KS.

 Azazelx wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
Would be either the undead or goblins tbf. Although I've seen mantic goblins.....

Undead, I'll go for undead. Is there restic in the mega army?

To be fair - the wraiths aren't bad. They predate their first KoW KS. The werewolves aren't bad either, though it depends if you like their particular aesthetic. If they add undead cavalry later, they're also "good" restic - and again predate the bad stuff from the first KS.

You ordering another 20kg box?

 RobertsMinis wrote:
The Wraiths are super models, I wouldn't worry about what material they are in. The Werewolves need a bit of love when prepping but look great when painted.

Disclaimer. I don't mind restic, in fact, I would say that to a certain degree I actually like working with it - I find cleaning and prepping models very relaxing (through I have raged quit on the odd restic model). I don't think it is the evil that some people make it out to be.

Restic works fine on either chunkier models (like the Ogres) or minis with fewer pieces (Undead restic stuff). Mold lines are nowhere near as bad as people make out (and yes I'm aware that you can cherry pick a few bad casts) and it's only fiddly models with tiny pieces that Restic falls apart on (oh god the enforcers).

I agree with Azazelx, the Wraiths are fine to deal with in restic the fact that a couple are single piece miniatures helps as well. The sculpts are unfussy and are suited to the material, where restic really falls down is small detail and mould lines. With the 20 odd restic Wraiths that I own the mould lines were minimal to non-existent. The Werewolves, like most bigger miniatures, are quite well suited to the material.

As for the hard plastic Zombies/Ghouls and Skeletons they are great kits full of customisation and interchangeable possibilities.

Damn it, having already painted and sold an all mantic KOW 4000 point Undead army I may just be talking myself into buying another one.

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:

Damn it, having already painted and sold an all mantic KOW 4000 point Undead army I may just be talking myself into buying another one.

They have this nice deal going for a Hardcover Rulebook and undead army going on

@Adam Souza: Mhorgoth The Faceless being included would be the deal breaker.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
Cheers! Should whack that in the OP

Good Idea,

I shall add it

Edit: It's been MODed in already, cheers

@Orlando just an error I have spotted in my original list, Goblin rabble are HYB not HIPS.

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
@Orlando just a couple of errors I have spotted in my original list, Goblin rabble are HYB not HIPS and the Ogre Chariots are HYB rather than RP.

Also some of the HYB models are resin plastic and metal rather than HIPS and metal (such as the ogre chariots).

Cool, I've change the info in the OP

Someone on another forum brought up that they didn't like the to and fro of combat (charge in, step back an inch, other side charge in, step back and inch etc etc). Does anyone know if there have been any changes to this aspect of combat? I don't have an issue with this, btu I thought I'd ask.

 agnosto wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
Would be either the undead or goblins tbf. Although I've seen mantic goblins.....

Undead, I'll go for undead. Is there restic in the mega army?

To be fair - the wraiths aren't bad. They predate their first KoW KS. The werewolves aren't bad either, though it depends if you like their particular aesthetic. If they add undead cavalry later, they're also "good" restic - and again predate the bad stuff from the first KS.

You ordering another 20kg box?

Heh, nope. I've got a ton of their undead as it is. (And most of that 20kg was scenery, anyway!)

 .Mikes. wrote:
Someone on another forum brought up that they didn't like the to and fro of combat (charge in, step back an inch, other side charge in, step back and inch etc etc). Does anyone know if there have been any changes to this aspect of combat? I don't have an issue with this, btu I thought I'd ask.

Minor change allowing units to always countercharge against a unit that attacked in a previous turn even if flank or rear charged.

Makes flank and rear charges more of a one-shot thing, or setup for a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario where you could charge that annoying unit of flyers in your rear, but doing do would expose the rear of the unit to another threat.

Cool, thanks SS. I could see that taking some of the grind out of combat.

Edit: Actually, on the surface that should make unit musicians and standards more important. I like it.

 .Mikes. wrote:
Cool, thanks SS. I could see that taking some of the grind out of combat.

Edit: Actually, on the surface that should make unit musicians and standards more important. I like it.

Except musicians and standards are being removed as in-game upgrades...

Confirmed for reals? I like it. I make an effort to include both in my forces - generally speaking but they can be a nightmare to track down or convert in some instances.

 Daedleh wrote:

 .Mikes. wrote:
Cool, thanks SS. I could see that taking some of the grind out of combat.

Edit: Actually, on the surface that should make unit musicians and standards more important. I like it.

Except musicians and standards are being removed as in-game upgrades...

Really? So what's the deal there?

Confirmed. I'm on the rules committee with Baragash and ScarletSquig.

People like their regiments and hordes to physically have banners and musicians. It makes them look "complete" and aesthetically pleasing. If you model your units with command but don't take them in-game then there's the bonus headache of remembering which ones have them and which ones don't.

At the moment both banners and musicians are (mostly) overpriced. Those 25 points per unit very, very quickly add up into a whole new unit. Most people I know only take musicians on a select few units and never take banners. 15 points for +1 nerve is pretty naff for most units. The points are much better put towards buying new units altogether or an artefact or two.

So what do we do?

We could drop their points values down. However, if we drop them down to the point where they're good value then they become auto-include, particularly on high defence units. At that point they cease to become an optional upgrade.

We could try adjusting their points on a per-unit basis, but that could get confusing fast and with points only being in multiples of 5 then there's not much to play with.

We could try giving them a completely different rule, rather than +1/-1 nerve but that's going down a complication road that we don't want. We could introduce huge imbalances, or simply make command auto-include on some units and daft-to-take on others, so back to square one.

The simplest option was the remove the options altogether and allow players to model their units freely. They have the option of taking the relevant effects (+1/-1) through Magic artefacts if they so want.

 Daedleh wrote:
...with points only being in multiples of 5 then there's not much to play with.

Then why are they multiples of 5?

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:
...with points only being in multiples of 5 then there's not much to play with.

Then why are they multiples of 5?

For simplicities sake. Do you really want to start adding up various 6 & 7 & 12 & 13 point upgrades?

That abyssal stuff looks god-awful like skylanders or something

which is strange cause i think the abyssal dwarfs are awesome

I actually really like the Abyssal's look, but the Abys Dwarfs do nothing for me.

Taste and all that.

Speaking of, does anyone know the artiist who is drawing the Abyssal concept art? S/He's done some awesome stuff for Mantic in the past. I hope they stick around, whoever they are.

Additionally, no more upgrades for standards/ musician removes a major headache when it comes to multibasing a unit.

It is now pretty straightforward just to model a unit in base blocks of 10 and put 2 together for a regiment or 4 together for a horde.

Its a move away from individual models within a unit having an in-game purpose and a move towards complete abstraction of 1 unit = 1 model as far as the game is concerned.

Fairly certain the Abyssal concepts are Heath Foley again.

 scarletsquig wrote:


Fairly certain the Abyssal concepts are Heath Foley again.

Cool. If Mantic ever do a graphic novel he needs to be the artist.

As to the standards and musicians, this is great news! I was just considering rebasing all of my skaven onto multibases for KoW (and cause they'll look cooler on display that way) and was thinking that standards would look kind of cool not always in the front of the unit. Maybe on a rock in the center, etc. Also fun to put the leader in the back cause that's how they roll

I havent read every page of this so sorry if this has been answered but are the abysall's hard plastic?

If I had the cash I would be very tempted by the rulebook and the Abysalls if they are in hard plastic. Sadly the kickstarter came to early for me.

Yes, they are hard plastic on sprues.

Thanks Alex.

Pending when cash is available it will likely have a pledge manager into next year.

I really want to get the abyssal army starter, but I really don't like the mouths.

I don't want the demons to have goofy smiles.

 Daedleh wrote:

At the moment both banners and musicians are (mostly) overpriced. Those 25 points per unit very, very quickly add up into a whole new unit. Most people I know only take musicians on a select few units and never take banners. 15 points for +1 nerve is pretty naff for most units. The points are much better put towards buying new units altogether or an artefact or two.
...
The simplest option was the remove the options altogether and allow players to model their units freely. They have the option of taking the relevant effects (+1/-1) through Magic artefacts if they so want.

Will Ogre unit point costs be modified in line with this change? (They usually ignore enemy musicians).

 RivenSkull wrote:
I really want to get the abyssal army starter, but I really don't like the mouths.

I don't want the demons to have goofy smiles.

They are more like Devils than demons, and I have a pretty good idea where the artist got inspiration from

 Daedleh wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:
...with points only being in multiples of 5 then there's not much to play with.

Then why are they multiples of 5?

For simplicities sake. Do you really want to start adding up various 6 & 7 & 12 & 13 point upgrades?

There are only two reasons why you should ever have points with a minimum resolution greater than one: because your ruleset is compatible with another ruleset, and so you need to keep the same points scale for legacy reasons; or because the units you use for points correlate with some in-universe unit of currency (like gold in Blood Bowl). Neither applies here, so there is no reason why you should have a unit cost 200 points out of 1500 instead of just 40 points out of 300.

 adamsouza wrote:

 RivenSkull wrote:
I really want to get the abyssal army starter, but I really don't like the mouths.

I don't want the demons to have goofy smiles.

They are more like Devils than demons, and I have a pretty good idea where the artist got inspiration from

The mouths are still out of place.



The champion is very much a devil, and the mouth looks fine. Not overly large and comical



The oversized mouth and elongated chin just make the model look goofy.

They look like little grinning imps. Cannon fodder demons.

I'm hoping as we move into more imposing troops they become a little less grinny.

I'm a bit fond of the design, as it brings back that 90s computer game art style I always liked.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:
...with points only being in multiples of 5 then there's not much to play with.

Then why are they multiples of 5?

For simplicities sake. Do you really want to start adding up various 6 & 7 & 12 & 13 point upgrades?

There are only two reasons why you should ever have points with a minimum resolution greater than one: because your ruleset is compatible with another ruleset, and so you need to keep the same points scale for legacy reasons; or because the units you use for points correlate with some in-universe unit of currency (like gold in Blood Bowl). Neither applies here, so there is no reason why you should have a unit cost 200 points out of 1500 instead of just 40 points out of 300.

It's undeniably more simple/straightforward though, which is I think is what Deadleh is saying, and is part of how KoW does things. The only negative point I can see of this is for the people who enjoy scribbling army lists onto paper and trying to squeeze in things as part of the army building process, and that now there is no excuse to have to use the rather odd top-hatted individual found the Orc sprue for the musician.

I think it's also to maintain the "feel" of a big game - which is what KoW aspires to be. I know that coming from a Warhammer Fantasy/40k background, hearing about 50 point battles in Warmachine and 6-point battles in SAGA seemed odd.

Using 5-point segments also seems easier to tally somehow.

In any case, there are "Legacy" reasons - and that's to maintain some relationship with the established KoW 1 ruleset.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:

At the moment both banners and musicians are (mostly) overpriced. Those 25 points per unit very, very quickly add up into a whole new unit. Most people I know only take musicians on a select few units and never take banners. 15 points for +1 nerve is pretty naff for most units. The points are much better put towards buying new units altogether or an artefact or two.
...
The simplest option was the remove the options altogether and allow players to model their units freely. They have the option of taking the relevant effects (+1/-1) through Magic artefacts if they so want.

Will Ogre unit point costs be modified in line with this change? (They usually ignore enemy musicians).

Everything is having it's points cost reviewed.

I think its something like the Dungeon Keeper game series that I'm reminded of.

 Azazelx wrote:
I think it's also to maintain the "feel" of a big game - which is what KoW aspires to be. I know that coming from a Warhammer Fantasy/40k background, hearing about 50 point battles in Warmachine and 6-point battles in SAGA seemed odd.

Using 5-point segments also seems easier to tally somehow.

In any case, there are "Legacy" reasons - and that's to maintain some relationship with the established KoW 1 ruleset.

Furthermore, it also leaves them the option of tinkering with point costs under 5 for fine-tuning/new releases/FAQ&Errata/scenarios/etc.. at some point, even if they don't do it right now in the first splash.

I don't like that KS are making tablet users use the mobile site but on the plus side you can see all the images a creator has uploaded even ones that aren't posted yet so it looks like next goal is Drech'nok in metal - the horns look different to the DS one so probably a few options in the set

I hope they offer a resin upgrade on that character just to save the hour or so it will take me to prep and pin the wings.

Yeah, metal and wings was a nightmare on the Basilean Angel characters.

As long as the attachment point is done correctly (ideally one piece for both wings and a very large square peg/slot to glue them into) it should be okay.

Just using the Dungeon Saga mini is probably the easier option.

Maybe restic wings and metal body? The material was fine on the gargoyles wings so should be ok on Drech'nok.

Incidentally, on the Musician/Banner front... I know I am a brand new guy to the game, but from my perspective having just read the old free rules .pdf... it instantly occurred to me that the two functionally cancel each-other out anyway. If all players put both, in all units, they have essentially done nothing but shrink the size of the game, yeah? Call me crazy but auto-cancelling design mechanics normally never make it to print in the first place. :-p

I do actually have a noobie question about the game's charge into combat/step back mechanic.

I feel like the free rules .pdf only once stumbles on rule clarity and is otherwise incredibly effective at conveying simple, but strategic rules. But charging is in dire need of a few more diagrams.

In games where positioning means everything, the charge rule seems very casual in describing "nudging" or pushing away other enemy units when you fit yourself into melee combat.

As a rule, does making sure your units align in combat trump all other priorities? IE, push away anything you need to to make those combat units sit totally flush? If so, who gets to decide what constitutes a fair pushing away of models? When you retreat your 1" after combat do you try to return models to their original positions, etc?

If someone could clarify it would help me really decide if this system is the right fit for my wife and I, as I hope it to be.

From the comments

Mantic
@ John:

- The Abyssals in this and the Abyssal in Dungeon are new sculpts, and entirely different molds and material. They will be compatible, but they are different. We're hoping to add all the units from Dungeon Saga into the army list.

as expected but good to have it in black and white for those wondering


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mantic
@ BattleDice - The Twilight Kin won't be making an appearance, no. We want to do more work on them first. Really pleased you like the Dark Knights though, I'll see how we are for stock and find out

I hope that means stuff like Undead Archers show up as well. Those look tremendous painted up, as per the DS KS.

 adamsouza wrote:

 RivenSkull wrote:
I really want to get the abyssal army starter, but I really don't like the mouths.

I don't want the demons to have goofy smiles.

They are more like Devils than demons, and I have a pretty good idea where the artist got inspiration from

That's no Demon or Devil - that's an Efreet, from the Elemental Plane of Fire!

 Azazelx wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
$15 for just the books? That's 30%, which is worse than most places that charge for percentages. They must be holding off on the $1 pledge level until later. Get people down now for $50 or $150, I guess.

I believe they're counting on more freebies at the $50 level unlocking.

I can't see that many freebies for the $50 rules-only level, to be honest. The counters for example are rubbish (I have the DZ ones) and they look a lot nicer in photos than in-hand. I'll stick to using dice for wound counters and disrupted.

Honestly I love the KoW wound counters (but yeah, the Deadzone ones are rather mediocre/poor). If they're like the KoW wound counters, which get constant use, then I'll be very happy.

Yeah, the deadzone ones are a bit poor. However, the dreadball counters are frikking amazing and, I'd call them near essential.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Quick question for you KoW players- what are Orcs like? Any good? I figured I may as well get an Orc army since I'm getting a great deal of them in Dungeon Saga..

Orcs are fantastic and my favorite army to play. The average Orc Ax are the best basic infantry in the game, with high defense and Crushing Strength. Orc Sniffs are the best scouts in the game as well (Vanguard gives them a free move before the game begins, they are fast, and they also have Crushing Strength, so are great for being speedbumps or getting flank charges). And Morax are one of the most feared units in the game, with their Elite-level melee value and the high number of Crushing Strength attacks that tend to, on average rolls, auto-kill any unit they charge. And the Orc Krudger on Slasher is a beast of a solo character and can chew up units all by himself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azazelx wrote:

ced1106 wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Quick question for you KoW players- what are Orcs like? Any good? I figured I may as well get an Orc army since I'm getting a great deal of them in Dungeon Saga..

Remember to check out the existing retail armies. They're also very good prices, though lack the "elite" units I'm seeing in the KS armies.
Thanks to everyone who're working on the point values and army lists!

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/orcs/product/garlaks-barbarous-horde-mega-army-96-figures.html

This is absolutely a perfect way to start a Mantic orc army. Plus, all the sprues come with Orclings so you will have about another 6 40mm swarm bases worth of Orclings. The fact there's an extra 5 Orc Ax means you can use the extra dudes for conversions (an army standard bearer, another Orc Krudger, etc)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 .Mikes. wrote:
Someone on another forum brought up that they didn't like the to and fro of combat (charge in, step back an inch, other side charge in, step back and inch etc etc). Does anyone know if there have been any changes to this aspect of combat? I don't have an issue with this, btu I thought I'd ask.

Honestly awkward at first, but now it's how I prefer to play. All your stuff and your stuff alone is done in your turn. It makes the game go by so incredibly quickly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedleh wrote:

At the moment both banners and musicians are (mostly) overpriced. Those 25 points per unit very, very quickly add up into a whole new unit. Most people I know only take musicians on a select few units and never take banners. 15 points for +1 nerve is pretty naff for most units. The points are much better put towards buying new units altogether or an artefact or two.

So what do we do?

I disagree, but that's just me the Banner is not +1 Nerve, btw, it's the enemy has -1 on his dice roll AGAINST your Nerve - Melee or Ranged - has saved one of my units on many, many occasions. It is infinitely more useful than the Musician, which is why it's 15 points versus 10 points.
The Musician only affects your nerve against melee.

If you're going to auto-include command, then yeah, get rid of the bonuses/etc. Make an option instead to have no command (Leaderless? perhaps call the rule "Garrison", or something, to signify no regimental colors and such?) that just confers the Enemy always getting a +1 on any Nerve rolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Incidentally, on the Musician/Banner front... I know I am a brand new guy to the game, but from my perspective having just read the old free rules .pdf... it instantly occurred to me that the two functionally cancel each-other out anyway. If all players put both, in all units, they have essentially done nothing but shrink the size of the game, yeah? Call me crazy but auto-cancelling design mechanics normally never make it to print in the first place. :-p

Banners make the enemy roll -1 on the Nerve check against your unit. Any Nerve check. Musicians only give you a +1 bonus in melee. So, they cancel each other out in melee, but the standard is a huge huuuuuge huge bonus when being shot at. A single point of damage from shooting will cause a nerve check.
I've got over two years and at least a hundred games under my belt; all of my combat units take a Banner straight up; some take Musicians; none of my speed-bump or reserve units have them, though. (Kings of War is very much a multi-line game; at 2000 points I'll tend to have at least two full lines of infantry across a 6' deployment area; sometimes going as deep as three lines. Reserves are very important because flank and rear charges are so deadly - if a hole gets opened in your battle line you are going to be dead unless you can plug it)

Since I am starting to get into Kings of War now, how competitively good is a mixed Orc and Undead army? How competitively good is Kingdoms of Men if done in a Mediveal Crusader style? I ask because those are the two armies I have in mind fluff-wise for my army, but I was wondering how much the difficulty curve is for each army.

 judgedoug wrote:
I disagree, but that's just me the Banner is not +1 Nerve, btw, it's the enemy has -1 on his dice roll AGAINST your Nerve - Melee or Ranged - has saved one of my units on many, many occasions. It is infinitely more useful than the Musician, which is why it's 15 points versus 10 points.
The Musician only affects your nerve against melee.

If you're going to auto-include command, then yeah, get rid of the bonuses/etc. Make an option instead to have no command (Leaderless? perhaps call the rule "Garrison", or something, to signify no regimental colors and such?) that just confers the Enemy always getting a +1 on any Nerve rolls.

I think it is just you. I've not seen a single unit banner probably in over a year. How is -1 to the dice roll any different to having +1 nerve?

Why would we make a special rule for command when it would just be -1 nerve?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tanakosyke22 wrote:
Since I am starting to get into Kings of War now, how competitively good is a mixed Orc and Undead army? How competitively good is Kingdoms of Men if done in a Mediveal Crusader style? I ask because those are the two armies I have in mind fluff-wise for my army, but I was wondering how much the difficulty curve is for each army.

I don't know about the allied Orcs & Undead. Some elements from the Undead army (Werewolves) would be useful to counter the relative lack of anti-war engine units that Orcs have, but I think the two styles would clash. Orcs need to get into combat as soon as possible because they're such a glass hammer, but Undead are much slower than Orcs. Trying to screen Orcs with Undead tarpits like Zombies would just mean the Orcs moving slower and getting picked off before they get to combat.

KoM is an extremely flexible list that can do pretty much any style of play you want.

All 3 armies are up there in terms of "competitiveness" on their own in 1st edition, but 2nd edition will see some pretty big balance changes anyway so there won't be competitive and uncompetitive armies. I'm not naive enough to think that we'll get perfect balance, but we are definitely going to get it to the point where you're never penalised or on the back foot for choosing certain units (or even certain armies) over another. Having said that, the two styles of Orcs and Undead seem to clash a bit and I don't think there'll be much synergy to take advantage of. KoM will definitely be the easier of the two styles to learn, just because you won't be learning how to overcome the alliances clash of styles.

Overall the games pretty well balanced so you won't need to worry about whats competitive and whats not too much, off the top of my head I can't think of any units in either Undead or Orcs armies that are
outright not worth taking, except maybe Undead Wights but only because how situational they currently are, they're better for siege games rather than most normal games personally speaking.

**Edit**
I'll leave tactics between Orcs and Undead to Daedleh.
**Edit**

In terms of Crusader theme KoM what exactly do you have in mind unit wise, lots of foot Knights and cavalry or something else?

 Rolt wrote:
Overall the games pretty well balanced so you won't need to worry about whats competitive and whats not too much, off the top of my head I can't think of any units in either Undead or Orcs armies that are
outright not worth taking, except maybe Undead Wights but only because how situational they currently are, they're better for siege games rather than most normal games personally speaking.

**Edit**
I'll leave tactics between Orcs and Undead to Daedleh.
**Edit**

In terms of Crusader theme KoM what exactly do you have in mind unit wise, lots of foot Knights and cavalry or something else?

I was thinking slightly cavalry-heavy Crusaders to start with support troops like Crossbow men and Trebuches with some Infantry to clean up and/or tarpit then. Kind of Brettonia-esque, but more emphasis on a somewhat balanced force.

 Daedleh wrote:

I think it is just you. I've not seen a single unit banner probably in over a year. How is -1 to the dice roll any different to having +1 nerve?

Well, I do tend to win
It's entirely different. The Banner is a -1 for your enemy's Nerve check against the unit in melee or ranged. The Musician adds a +1 when you are rolling a Nerve check against an enemy unit in melee.

Shooting at a unit that has a Banner, regardless of my own command situation, means I roll a -1 when testing that unit's Nerve at the end of the Shooting phase.
That ^^ alone is worth the price of admission.
Amusingly, in a teaching game on Monday, the new player's Foot Guard took a zap spell and the Nerve check would have wavered the unit had it not been for the Foot Guard unit's Banner. It neatly underlines that important distinction as we were explaining the difference between a Banner and a Musician. those Foot Guard then survived and wound up charging in and obliterating their target unit.

I was thinking of a similar thing, if just to get a chance to use some of the brilliant Fireforge miniatures crusader guys..