This Kickstarter is to fund the 2nd Edition Kings of War Hardback Rulebook, a new tome that will build on the previous edition to create a bigger and better game.
It will include: • Enhanced Game Play - with improvements to the rules to improve the strategy, speed and simplicity in the game.
• Refreshed Army Lists - all armies will be updated and rebalanced, and new units and new armies will be added to the core rulebook.
• Fantastic New Art - an update to the art library throughout the book to bring the world to life.
• Develop the Background - exploring the fantasy world and each of the factions like never before. • and more!
Kings of War 2nd Edition grew out of gamer demand. After thousands of games and numerous tournaments played across the globe over the last 4 years the gaming community saw opportunity to streamline and develop the rules and army lists to an even higher level. The new rule set will allow you to play exciting games with huge armies - from start to finish in an evening. The background will let you engross yourself in the world of Kings of War and its history, and study your opponent’s force and the units at his disposal - so you can plan their defeat!
Mega Army - Army Name - Starter Values (based on mantic website as best I can, NOT online discounters or bundle deals, please check the value for yourself before backing!)
£119.93 (approx) - Undead - £42.46
£138.32 - Dwarf - £45.46
£143.91 - Elf - £55.45
£15.02 (approx) - Orc - £52.46 (approx)
£132.42 - Abysal Dwarf - £52.46
£163.08 - Goblin - £51.46
£159.41 - Basilean - £57.46
£134.21- Ogre - £40.97
£83.34 - Forces of the Abyss - £21.84
£9615 - Forces of Nature - £43.28
STRETCH GOALS
Funded: Army Builder and Chess Clock Apps
Funded: Free counters
Funded: Elf Mage and Baslilan War Wizard (free for pledges with those armies ONLY, otherwise $8 add on)
Funded : NEW! Lower Abyssals Hard Plastic
Funded: Lower Abyssal Magi upgrade above sprue to add more options
Funded: Abyssal Champion (metal)
Funded – Abyssal Succubi
Funded – BONUS Kickstarter Exclusive Resin Tyrant King Blaine on Gramakh for Living Legend/God of War pledges only (from the comments NOT just for $50+ spend)
Funded – BONUS Kings of War Heroes! (Free Undead Necromancer & Dwarf Warsmith for the respective Army deals only)
Target Hit- Kickstarter Exclusive "Map of Mantica" and Poster (for Living Legend/God of War pledges only NOT just for $50+ spend)
Funded Kings of War Worldwide Campaign PDF (for Living Legend/God of War pledges only NOT just for $50+ spend)
Funded - Undead Soul Reaver Cavalry (5 added free to Undead Mega Army but NOT the Undead starter)
Funded BONUS Basilean Heavy Arbalest Warmachine (Free to Basilean Mega Army)
Funded Abyssal Iffrit (free for Abyssal Mega Army)
Funded Elf Forest Shambler (Free for Elf Mega Army)
Funded Orc War Drum (Free for Orc Mega Army)
Funded - Abyssal Molochs
Funded Hard Plastic Salamanders
Funded – Forces of Nature Druid (no image it's up for vote I'll add if they make a descision)
Funded - Forces of Nature Nyads (free for Mega and starter forces of Nature army) (no decision on art check the update)
Funded – Abyssal Dwarf Greater Obsidian Golem/Forces of Nature Greater Earth Elemental (no real art, check the updates)
$350,000 - Free Wound Trackers
Army deals
Spoiler:
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: For those of you new to KOW/ Mantics Fantasy Line here is a list of what materials the units in the mega armies (and thus the starter armies, which have the same units) are made from.
Key: HIPS =Hard Impact Plastic Sprues RP =Resin Plastic (sometimes referred to as restic) HYB =Hybrid metal and HIPS (resin plastic and metal also occur but not in any of the army deal units so far). M =Metal.
Well this is unexpected to say the least, and to think I'll just planning on buying the KoW rulebook for Christmas.
Interesting enough there was mention recently in the Mantic blog that they where planning to revisit where KoW all began and I've seen quite a few mentions of the
KoW Elves being revisited and updated, and Mantic not being "happy" with the direction of the Twilight Kin design, mostly from various posters during the Dwarf
Kings Quest KS and even a few passing forums. Lets face it we all know theres no such thing as a "small" Mantic KS, so they could be planning to redo and possibly
launch some new plastics (Abyssal's and new units are mentioned above).
Just a thought
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@OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Sounds like its gonna start at the beginning of next week to me.
Next Week (coming Monday) Nov 10th till end it right at the start of December, so possibly Dec 7th, equals a 28 day campaign.
I was sad that Deadzone got pushed back from November. I was totally looking forward to a nice crazy tabletop KS campaign from Mantic.
I was also sad that I had missed out on the original Kings of War campaign (not so much after having seen certain figures).
It's cool they're shooting for a low funding goal of getting the book updated- I think that's a good thing. Maybe even my local store would carry it then.
The nice thing about this is that if they end up making a ton of Abyssals, and well, everything they end up making in general, would probably end up getting stats for Dungeon Saga as well. Clever.
Hope those rumored Forces of Nature make an appearance as well, with the Salamanders naturally.
Hard plastics would be a welcome addition. Do you guys think that could happen?
Definitely looking forward to this (tho I did just pick up a hardback of ebay). They way it sounds with the long pledge manager I can put in for a large Abyssal force
not sure if the start will be this week (the blog is meant to hit Friday I think) or next week (as today was the first I saw of it) so I can be clear bases on ROnnies last bit
They said in the newsletter that this blog was expected on Monday (today). So the campaign starts sometime next week.
My big wish - a complete redo of the campaign and siege rules.
Those were my only disappointment with Kings of War. (Sorry Bob - My Kingdoms of Men have a stone castle - your elves have nothing that will even scratch the paint.... But don't worry - I'll be able to blow your castle to smithereens....)
Campaign rules are on the rules committees to-do list, but they may be better suited to being in a supplement rather than in the main hardback. We're looking at really fleshing out the world and trying to give every race "the Basilean treatment" in terms of depth in the hardback, so we might run out of pages for the siege/campaign rules.
Curious as to what materials we might see figures available in.
Wasn't Mantic having an issue with hardcovers though? Weren't they just saying how Dungeon Saga might be the last HC compendium? Or was that due to some sort of other issue, not just because it was a rulebook with a hard cover.
I'll definitely be in on this, been looking to get into Kow for a little while now and the fact this KS will give me both the main KoW hardback rulebook and a mini gamer version in one cheap bundle is too good to pass up.
There might even be some new army bundles on offer if this thing's funding explodes (spoiler: it will)
We are now running short of the hardback rulebook and the two-player set as well.
I wonder if this is a possible hint for a new 2-player starter set?
Bit of a curve ball here. All that talk of DZ2 and then that getting pushed back because players lack funds around xmas and then BAM! a different Kickstarter right before xmas.
lord_blackfang wrote: Bit of a curve ball here. All that talk of DZ2 and then that getting pushed back because players lack funds around xmas and then BAM! a different Kickstarter right before xmas.
Exactly what I was thinking.
Bloody hell Mantic, give our wallets a fething chance to recuperate.
The amount of Mantic kickstarters is too damn high!
Unless they think that their Deadzone customers are somehow different to their KoW customers, which is a frightening prospect. I hope they're not that stupid.
Alex C wrote: Unless they think that their Deadzone customers are somehow different to their KoW customers, which is a frightening prospect. I hope they're not that stupid.
Considering I backed KoW and regretted it later (sold it off) but went ape-gak on Deadzone (and don't regret it), I don't think that statement is far from the truth. I would love another Deadzone KS, but am not really interested in this one.
they were going to wait, but if they do they run out of rule books to sell (and risks distributors/stores dropping a still minor product)
and re-ordering the old book does not make sense as there will be a big minimum order and they won't have time to sell a lot of them before going to 2.0 anyway
so a KS genuinely only to fund the book is cool and if people want to throw money at them they'll take it and make some minis now rather than in 5 or 6 months time
they were going to wait, but if they do they run out of rule books to sell (and risks distributors/stores dropping a still minor product)
and re-ordering the old book does not make sense as there will be a big minimum order and they won't have time to sell a lot of them before going to 2.0 anyway
so a KS genuinely only to fund the book is cool and if people want to throw money at them they'll take it and make some minis now rather than in 5 or 6 months time
This. It's the same problem that the OOP books (Basilean Legacy & Heroes & Legends) have - order a new print run in and they won't sell out before the new edition definitely lands. Make a lower volume order and it costs more per unit so Mantic have to up their prices.
The KS is a mini KS aimed solely at getting the book as fantastic as possible rather than putting miniatures into production. The minis are only if the funding goes absolutely sky high and are not the main aim of the KS. I can't yet say what the basic buy-in level is going to be, but it's a lot, lot less than even Dungeon Saga. It's also one where they're setting up the pledge manager for, so you can pledge $1 and then add on the book later.
Hmm,
I personally don't see the need for another Kings of War edition. We're enjoying the current one just fine. The old hardback has only been out for 2-3 years, yes? Also, what about a KS for Warpath? There's a game that still doesn't have a purchasable rulebook!
I'll probably buy it anyway since it's the only big-fantasy game I play, but it does seem a bit soon to be buying another hardback KoW rulebook.
It does feel like the last Kings of War book is rather new to have a new version out already, even if I'm sure the new one won't be out until next Summer.
It'll have been a 3 year edition by the time the book gets released, which is a bit shorter than the original plan. There has been a noticeable drop in attendance at Kings of War events this year and after gathering feedback it's become apparent that the balance issues (heavy cavalry, Obsidian Golems, Drakons, Elohi, artillery in general) are the reason for it.
If the unbalanced armies were fun to play against then it would be one thing, but unfortunately they are absolutely no fun. The only tactical decisions are made by your opponent over which of your units they're going to delete first, without you being able to hit back or do any damage.
The rules committee had 4 options:
1) ignore the issue. Not really an option.
2) Develop specific counter-units. This is a huge can of worms and unfortunately could end up doing far more harm than good. It would also necessitate adding unit specific special rules which is wholly against the principles of Kings of War.
3) Produce updated/living army lists. It's felt that the community is too small at this point to risk splitting it into the "by the book" or "living army lists" factions. We would still need to make a printed copy of these at which point we may as well just...
4) do a brand new edition. Take the time to fix not only the balance issues, but some of the minor bugs that have cropped up in the core rules. We can look at improving the character and background of the game at the same time.
We had been working on a new army list before the discussions about do we/don't we do a new edition came up. We were struggling to balance the new list - what do you balance it against? The average unit? The overpowered units? Make it a rock-paper-scissors combo against the OP units and open that can of worms?
Second edition allows us to directly address the communities concerns as well as improve the game in general. It is a bit faster than originally planned, but it's the right thing to do. The rules will still be free to download and I believe that there's a softback with all the rules & army lists planned if anyone doesn't want to buy a new hardback.
Are they looking into the fact that no one finds taking standards for units worthwhile? All the lists I see have people not bothering to take them. Seemed strange to me, as it's almost a must-include in other game systems.
Also the fact that most people stick with the 20 unit size as a maximum, rather than building for something bigger.
Standards and musicians have both been sorted and hordes are on our todo list starting next week. Hordes generally just need a points drop and their army selection improved (more slots for heroes/war engines/monsters than regiments).
I'm glad that Mantic is correcting some of the balance issues, but some of them were apparent even for a casual player. An artillery heavy gunline was going to win or lose based on how many sixes they rolled in the first two or three turns, and there wasn't much you could do about it, given how cheap and available the guns are. It didn't bother me much, since I was looking more for casual games and didn't play in tournaments, but it really seemed that the balance in KoW was due mostly to fairly simple and repeated units.
That all said, I'm looking forward to this. I like the core of KoW a lot, and I hope that a revised iteration will be stronger and better. I've been looking hard at Ogres, so kickstarter pricing on them would be nice as well.
I'd like to see larger creatures or things like that added (so I have a use for the GW miniatures I have bought but won't be using for Warhammer any more). But that's just wishlisting at the moment I reckon.
I played the Mantic rules once and from what I recall they were quite fun in 15mm. I'd give a punt on the rulebook probably as I'm probably never going to back anything with a large range of models as I dislike a lot. I realise I'm not the typical Mantic consumer but I'm a fan of these smaller micro kickstarters with focused goals, like Mierce and their mounted commander one.
Sorry to repeat, but has there been anything from Mantic on why we're getting a second print edition of KoW before we have one print edition of Warpath?
I'm a little frustrated by how long warpath is taking but I think Mantic are still trying to make multibasing work. I can only guess how successful that's been.
Yeah, they should just scrap that idea entirely, in my opinion.
As for KoW, I'm pretty happy with the current rules, but then I've only played pretty basic "force on force" games with it. My eyes will definitely be peeled for this.
I'm curious as to what the rules committee entails. Is it a fancy open beta, the term for all the designers or a select few who make the decisions. If it's the latter I'm less enthused.
I think deep down Mantic really wants to remake Epic, not 40k.
Which would be fine, if it was done in 10/15mm and no larger. I really hope multibasing in Warpath doesn't happen, as a) 40k is currently the only sci-fi large battle game with a per-model level of detail, which I'd like to see change, and b) it will alienate 40k players, which are ultimately Warpath's target audience. If they can combine the best bits of 40k (the scale, scope and detail of it) with more modern/interactive rules (activations, command rules, reactions) and supplement it all with hordes of cheap cheap cheap hard plastic minis, they could be on to a winner there.
As to why it was pushed back, Mantic (and everyone else) expects Warpath to be absolutely collossal as a KS. Deadzone was 1.2 million, I can see Warpath being 3-4m if they get the plastic sorted (by all accounts they have now) and keep up their usual 'free/cheap stuff for everyone, but even freer/cheaper for big pledges' strategy to get the cash in.
Daedleh wrote: I'm a little frustrated by how long warpath is taking but I think Mantic are still trying to make multibasing work. I can only guess how successful that's been.
Multi-basing is not really an issue, and has/is going to be written in such a way that players can take it or leave it.
KoW still isn't finished yet and that's just tweaks to an existing game, so TBH anyone getting frustrated that WP hasn't been finished in the same time frame isn't being realistic.
Alex C wrote: Do you think Mantic will really limit themselves to selling "just the book" and keep it a "small KS"?
No way!
I know Kickstarters have the potential to become a burden, and I am aware of this.
So did I consider just pre-releasing the 2nd Edition of KoW? Yes, I thought long and hard about it. But I think our fans have come to expect the amazing. Piles of plastics at great prices and any extra cash we generate being spent on new models to support their game, and more cool expansion books and background. If I put it up for pre-release we both lose the urgency that makes us get on and get things made and a deadline that sees it released soon.
Anecdotally, how do Mantic products sell after their massive Kickstarters? Do they tend to catch on and keep holding, or are they mostly flashes in the pan?
Mymearan wrote: Anecdotally, how do Mantic products sell after their massive Kickstarters? Do they tend to catch on and keep holding, or are they mostly flashes in the pan?
I'm the only person I know with any Mantic products.... Miniature Market regularly sells off their stock of Mantic at insanely cheap prices; one would assume (dangerous I know) that this is because it's not moving particularly well and is eating up warehouse space.
Mymearan wrote: Anecdotally, how do Mantic products sell after their massive Kickstarters? Do they tend to catch on and keep holding, or are they mostly flashes in the pan?
I'm fairly certain Dreadball has been selling well (they're now on the 5th ot 6th print run, I think), Deadzone has done pretty well and already my local store (not even a real game store, more a model/toy store that does some gaming stuff) already has the Mars Attacks! stuff on the shelf. In terms of breaking into retail, I think MA is Mantic's ace in the whole; while I personally don't care for the style or product, it seems to be the one of their ranges most likely to sell outside of specific game stores.
Mymearan wrote: Anecdotally, how do Mantic products sell after their massive Kickstarters? Do they tend to catch on and keep holding, or are they mostly flashes in the pan?
I'm the only person in my gaming group with mantic stuff. That being said, it seems deadzone has done pretty well at catching on.
Kings of War is the best mass battles games on the market. I've got like a hundred games under my belt from a half dozen different armies (and I have three more armies waiting to be painted)
I am very much looking forward to a few unit tweaks and revised siege/building/etc rules (aka the Jake Thornton "Why Was I Asked To Write These Expansion Rules When Alessio Wrote The Main Rules" gaffes)
I hope the Rules Committee that has been working on this hasn't lost sight of "simple = superior".
Deadzone and Dreadball took pretty well locally. Not insanely popular or anything but there are groups that get together regularly for both. Neither holds a candle to X-wing which is the go to secondary game around here (most people's primary being GW40k or Fantasy).
Daedleh wrote: I'm a little frustrated by how long warpath is taking but I think Mantic are still trying to make multibasing work. I can only guess how successful that's been.
Multi-basing is not really an issue, and has/is going to be written in such a way that players can take it or leave it.
KoW still isn't finished yet and that's just tweaks to an existing game, so TBH anyone getting frustrated that WP hasn't been finished in the same time frame isn't being realistic.
I very much beg to differ, but only in regards to the multi-basing.
Multi-basing is a huge issue - and if the game tries to force it then it will not be played. Even as an option it seems unwieldy and limiting.
It is just plain a bad idea for that scale of game. For an Epic/Micro Armor scale it would work fine, but for squad level tactics... not so much.
Deadzone shows that Mantic can write a good, solid SF game without having cumbersome bases of troops.
That said, I am much happier with a KS for KoW than I would be for Warpath.
The balance issues haven't been that bad for me in the current edition Kings of War, other than avoiding the campaign and siege rules.
Certainly better than some other games on the market.
Zond wrote:I'm curious as to what the rules committee entails. Is it a fancy open beta, the term for all the designers or a select few who make the decisions. If it's the latter I'm less enthused.
Not sure what you mean here.
The way it's been working with the KoW committee is that we work closely with Alessio C who has the final say over everything. He has his ideas of where he wants to take the game, we have our ideas and we act as a filter between him and the rest of the community - it would take an extraordinary amount of time for him to sift through it on his own. Alessio takes our feedback on board, writes a version of the rules which we then test and give further feedback on. Through iteration we're able to come up with something that he's happy with, that we're happy with and know that the community will be happy with. We've got the core & special rules 95% of the way there now and about to start churning through the army lists and repointing everything.
Mymearan wrote:Anecdotally, how do Mantic products sell after their massive Kickstarters? Do they tend to catch on and keep holding, or are they mostly flashes in the pan?
They sell well after the Kickstarters. The Deadzone KS backers got half of the first print run of Deadzone and the rest sold out through retail within a month of release. It's gone through several print runs still.
judgedoug wrote:Kings of War is the best mass battles games on the market. I've got like a hundred games under my belt from a half dozen different armies (and I have three more armies waiting to be painted)
I am very much looking forward to a few unit tweaks and revised siege/building/etc rules (aka the Jake Thornton "Why Was I Asked To Write These Expansion Rules When Alessio Wrote The Main Rules" gaffes)
I hope the Rules Committee that has been working on this hasn't lost sight of "simple = superior".
We absolutely haven't lost sight of that. Our guiding principle has been "Evolution, not revolution". The core and special rules run to the same length that they currently do.
Mymearan wrote: Anecdotally, how do Mantic products sell after their massive Kickstarters? Do they tend to catch on and keep holding, or are they mostly flashes in the pan?
About a half dozen players, maybe a full dozen in the Phoenix, AZ area.
Thing is, most of those players don't buy the stuff locally. They back KS heavily and/or buy any other models they are looking for at deep discount on-line.
I've noticed this results in a glut of models that never get built/played with and/or that show up for a couple dimes to the dollar at second hand sales sponsored by local FLGS.
Unsurprisingly, FLGS don't stock what they can't sell and so any new players are likely to buy low cost stuff from folks who went KS heavy or on-line.
I'm aware of two game stores that have Mantic product (one has a single DZ box and the other has a DB team and about 4 MVP blisters) locally.
They will special order Mantic, upon request, but that means paying full MSRP plus 9% sales tax. It appears they have low/no volume on that front.
The KS focus is great for environments where a local club buys in.
It is less viable for markets that rely on FLGS (for the FLGS) because stores just can't realistically sell the stuff w/o losing nearly all their profit.
Without stuff on the shelf, players are harder to recruit and store owners are less than enthusiastic about sponsoring game play that nets them little/nothing.
PS - When we were running a DB league, I had a couple of extra teams that I offered up for FREE - the only proviso being the new owners would just join us for some games during a 6 week series. Couldn't give them away.
Catyrpelius wrote: I'm not sure I can justify backing this after the junk I received from their first KoW Kickstarter. Those plastic Goblins were horrible.
Rule of thumb for KS: "Never back a creator's first project".
While thumbs were meant to be broken seems like waiting for v.2 for KoW was the right move here.
This might give me the motivation to start up Kings of War now! Already have a small token force of Orcs and Fireforge Crusaders, so I can build up more of the Orcs.
Daedleh wrote: I'm a little frustrated by how long warpath is taking but I think Mantic are still trying to make multibasing work. I can only guess how successful that's been.
Multi-basing is not really an issue, and has/is going to be written in such a way that players can take it or leave it.
KoW still isn't finished yet and that's just tweaks to an existing game, so TBH anyone getting frustrated that WP hasn't been finished in the same time frame isn't being realistic.
I very much beg to differ, but only in regards to the multi-basing.
Multi-basing is a huge issue - and if the game tries to force it then it will not be played. Even as an option it seems unwieldy and limiting.
The context of my comment was that "multi-basing is not an issue holding up the development of Warpath".
agnosto wrote: Miniature Market regularly sells off their stock of Mantic at insanely cheap prices; one would assume (dangerous I know) that this is because it's not moving particularly well and is eating up warehouse space.
Miniature market have done that for everything Mantic true, but also for Warmahordes, for Dropzone Commander, for Spartan Games stuff, they're even doing right this very second for 40k stuff.
Daedleh wrote: I'm a little frustrated by how long warpath is taking but I think Mantic are still trying to make multibasing work. I can only guess how successful that's been.
Multi-basing is not really an issue, and has/is going to be written in such a way that players can take it or leave it.
KoW still isn't finished yet and that's just tweaks to an existing game, so TBH anyone getting frustrated that WP hasn't been finished in the same time frame isn't being realistic.
I very much beg to differ, but only in regards to the multi-basing.
Multi-basing is a huge issue - and if the game tries to force it then it will not be played. Even as an option it seems unwieldy and limiting.
The context of my comment was that "multi-basing is not an issue holding up the development of Warpath".
Daedleh wrote: Campaign rules are on the rules committees to-do list, but they may be better suited to being in a supplement rather than in the main hardback. We're looking at really fleshing out the world and trying to give every race "the Basilean treatment" in terms of depth in the hardback, so we might run out of pages for the siege/campaign rules.
Speaking as a KoW player, I'd rather see more useful rules than fluff. Campaign (and working siege) rules being the top of that list, along with more scenarios - since I'm using ones taken from WHFB rulebooks at this stage to make the games more interesting. Hell, I;d be happy if you split the book into two - a rulebook and a fluff book aka 40k 2nd edition. That way I don't have to carry the fluff around with me when I'm trying to play the game.
Standards and musicians have both been sorted and hordes are on our todo list starting next week. Hordes generally just need a points drop and their army selection improved (more slots for heroes/war engines/monsters than regiments).
Also Ogre hordes.
I like the sound of all of those things.
Anything on shooting from/at higher ground? Using TLOS (a "soft" rule) when we have "hard" rules for most everything else in an element-based game that encourages unit basing, creative basing (mini-dioramas) and proxied models is just silly, to put it politely.
I'd like to see larger creatures or things like that added (so I have a use for the GW miniatures I have bought but won't be using for Warhammer any more). But that's just wishlisting at the moment I reckon.
I agree on that, actually. Some more profiles that can be made to counts-as for the cooler out-there WHFB stuff like Demigriffs, as well as some of all those Reaper Bones monsters (Undead Giant! Riderless Griffons, etc). Not to mention the possibility of some other "official" human army list variants so I can effectively use my Romans and WotR armies, making them a little more distinct.
I know Mantic want KoW to be it's own game and not just ProxyHammer, but more counts-as options for Chaos Warriors and Beastmen players than "just use the Orc list" for both. (or KoM for Chaos) will get more players joining in. Split Elves into High and Wood? Or just add some more unit options so both have some more units in the "Elf" force.
Anything on shooting from/at higher ground? Using TLOS (a "soft" rule) when we have "hard" rules for most everything else in an element-based game that encourages unit basing, creative basing (mini-dioramas) and proxied models is just silly, to put it politely.
I agree on that, actually. Some more profiles that can be made to counts-as for the cooler out-there WHFB stuff like Demigriffs, as well as some of all those Reaper Bones monsters (Undead Giant! Riderless Griffons, etc). Not to mention the possibility of some other "official" human army list variants so I can effectively use my Romans and WotR armies, making them a little more distinct.
I know Mantic want KoW to be it's own game and not just ProxyHammer, but more counts-as options for Chaos Warriors and Beastmen players than "just use the Orc list" for both. (or KoM for Chaos) will get more players joining in. Split Elves into High and Wood? Or just add some more unit options so both have some more units in the "Elf" force.
I understand the desire for the WHF counts-as but that is something that Mantic are really, really moving away from. Any new units will be uniquely Mantic units.
Having said that, I suspect members of the rules committee would be up for doing a "fan" list. While it wouldn't be official and usable in tournaments, they would be pretty well balanced.
I've read that article of yours, and thought it much better than the "official" version.
Perhaps "counts-as" could be suggested in a softer way. More distinct High and Wood elf units make sense, based entirely on the Tolkien-esque archetypes that the whole industry is built on.
Heavily armoured "inhuman" warriors have also been a fantasy staple (especially in art) for 40-odd years now. It's not like Lenton created that trope...
But properly-balanced "unofficial" lists would be great as well.
Azazelx wrote: I know Mantic want KoW to be it's own game and not just ProxyHammer, but more counts-as options for Chaos Warriors and Beastmen players than "just use the Orc list" for both. (or KoM for Chaos) will get more players joining in.
For the Beastmen I've long said that they could be represented by rules for a human or near-human faction that uses animal and monster totems. Tzeentchgors would be warriors emulating the Cygor-equivalent, Khornegors would emulate the Ghorgon-equivalent, things like that.
Daedleh wrote: I'm a little frustrated by how long warpath is taking but I think Mantic are still trying to make multibasing work. I can only guess how successful that's been.
Multi-basing is not really an issue, and has/is going to be written in such a way that players can take it or leave it.
KoW still isn't finished yet and that's just tweaks to an existing game, so TBH anyone getting frustrated that WP hasn't been finished in the same time frame isn't being realistic.
I very much beg to differ, but only in regards to the multi-basing.
Multi-basing is a huge issue - and if the game tries to force it then it will not be played. Even as an option it seems unwieldy and limiting.
The context of my comment was that "multi-basing is not an issue holding up the development of Warpath".
Ah, thank you for the clarification.
I could see them spending years trying to make the multi-basing palatable.... And failing.
The only way that I could see it working is for weapons teams - mortars, machine guns, etc..
I'm just hoping for more kingdoms of men options so I can play around with my kings of war samurai idea. Then in the future I will pick up a more fantasy kow army to appose them. Possibly undead.
We are getting a fluff- less rule book- Ronnie even mentioned it.
That's the battle book, the softcover that I'm assuming will be more small and compact, like the one in the starter set, that's just nothing but rules, right?
Here's to hoping for as many new and distinct army/ unit choices as the rules committee has time to test, since the bulk of those could probably then end up pulling double duty as encounters in Dungeon Saga.
@Daedleh
So does this mean we might start getting a few "big" units for the various armies?
While I'd hate for Kow to go in the ALL BIG ALL DAY SWEATY direction that Warhammer seems to be going, KoW really needs some large impressive centerpieces to field.
A mass battle fantasy game just doesn't feel the same without them.
If you mean big monsters then these are probably going to be for a supplement rather than in the core rules. If you mean big units then we've not really started locking down new units yet. I am determined to see Ogre hordes in the game though
More than happy to see an update to the weaker elements of the largely excellent ruleset, but do not see why this requires a Kickstarter. I understand the costs that miniature production incur, but an update (with a lot of the work seemingly done gratis by the rules committee) and translation should really be paid for in house.
Well, if GW's Fantasy End Times is truly ending WFB, and GW is going "Fantasy Skirmish" in summer 2015, it sure wouldn't hurt a rival company to have a shiny new square-bases mass battles fantasy game in a spanking new edition around, which they could pitch to to disgruntled WFB-players (the three that are left) in case they don't want to go "skirmish".
@Highlord Tamburlaine: Yes the Bulwarkers, good call. I think that is it though, and then they are hybrids of the old plastics with metal spears/shields
@Rolt: The Twilight Kin were pre KS 1.0.
Am very interested to see how a primarily rules, rather than miniature, driven KS does for Mantic. Then again if enough people back it will become about miniatures very quickly, I have seen a lot of interest in the Abyssal/Nature armies as they offer something very different from WFB.
This should be fun. Which models will have awful concepts and awful models? Which will have surprisingly impressive sculpts that somehow end up as uninteresting models? Which models will be poorly translated in to a different material half way through production?
Only time will tell!
Yeah, I'm in the boat of if it's not hard plastic I'm not interested in models from Mantic. That said $50 for the core rulebook and travel version at discount isn't very low cost. Just have to wait and see if I'm interested.
plastictrees wrote: This should be fun. Which models will have awful concepts and awful models? Which will have surprisingly impressive sculpts that somehow end up as uninteresting models? Which models will be poorly translated in to a different material half way through production?
Only time will tell!
None I hope! Mantic have definitely been improving with each ks.
Azazelx wrote: I know Mantic want KoW to be it's own game and not just ProxyHammer, but more counts-as options for Chaos Warriors and Beastmen players than "just use the Orc list" for both. (or KoM for Chaos) will get more players joining in.
For the Beastmen I've long said that they could be represented by rules for a human or near-human faction that uses animal and monster totems. Tzeentchgors would be warriors emulating the Cygor-equivalent, Khornegors would emulate the Ghorgon-equivalent, things like that.
Personally while I fully understand and even commend Mantic for not wishing to continue down the proxyhammer route, I don't see why they just don't create a catch-all beastmen faction in the game.
Lets say one army that has ratmen, kobolds, gnolls, lizardmen and anything else all under one banner, a bestman empire faction if you will. Mantic can create a unified theme and mini range for the
official release, while at the same time the army list itself can be created with enough generic unit types and heroes (similar to the armies of man list) so that anyone not wishing to use Mantic minis can proxy with ease.
Mantic and Kow players get to have their own original take on a Empire of Beastmen (and ladies ) army with a full range of minis, the mountain of players asking for Mantic made skaven and lizardmen get their new army,
and everyone else gets a easy to use list to transfer their Skaven/Lizardmen/what-ever army under the KoW ruleset. Everyone wins.
Not to mention this could be a golden opportunity for Mantic to show off their KoW universe by creating a unique looking faction, just imagine what could be done if Mantic forgo the usual beastman
troupes and focused instead on creating something the rest of the market isn't catering towards, civilized and armored lizardmen for example.
So! The cat’s out of the bag and we know that the Kings of War 2nd edition hardback rulebook is on its way! For those of you who don’t know me, I’m Nick Williams (Daedle on the forums) and I’m part of the team of designers working on 2nd ed with Alessio. We’re very pleased with what we’ve put together – an excellent and exciting evolution of the first edition which adds some real character to the fantastic rules.
I’m sure the big question from most people is: “what’s going to change?” One of our main aims is to create a real, breathing and living world for players to wage their war in, but what about the actual gameplay itself?
The biggest change is to the game balance.
We are taking the opportunity to review all of the units in the game and adjust their points cost (and in some situations their stats). Amongst others, cavalry will generally go up in cost while ranged infantry units will come down in cost. There will be lots and lots of little tweaks to allow people to create a huge variety of armies without worrying about “competitiveness”. That’s not to say that you can’t tweak your army list to better suit your tactics, but we want to get to the stage where you never pick one unit over the other because it’s simply better and cheaper.
As part of this, we’re looking at addressing the balance between ranged infantry and artillery. Ranged infantry isn’t so good in the current edition, and it’s often more expensive than the melee equivalent. By contrast, artillery can be absolutely devastating when taken in large numbers. We’ve decreased the amount of damage that artillery can do and we’ve improved ranged infantry. Now ranged infantry will do reliable small chunks of damage (generally not more than 1-2 points of damage per turn) while artillery will still do considerable, but not unit killing, hits. Of course, melee damage will always trump damage done from afar so you will need some melee units to protect your ranged ones!
Line of sight is changing. At the moment we use True Line of Sight – meaning that if your model can physically “see” another model then it can see it in-game. While this is a great idea on the surface, when there’s a huge range of manufacturers and scenic basing being used in Kings of War then it can really cause problems. A player using one manufacturer for their Kingdoms of Men army might be able to see over their opponent’s human models from a different manufacturer.
The new LOS system is quite simple; units are given a height and you can see or be seen over any units which are smaller than you. Any unit which has an equal or greater height will block LOS. Infantry will be height 1, cavalry and large infantry will be height 2 and so on. This won’t have any impact on how people mostly play the game but it will allow you to go hog wild with modelling and not worry about any advantages or disadvantages you might get in game.
‘Disrupted’ currently has two meanings in the game – a modifier to hit when you’re charging through terrain and when a unit is charged and cannot shoot in the next turn. We’re calling the second effect (charged and can’t shoot) ‘Disordered’. This will have a bigger impact on the game since it’s not just ranged units which can become Disordered. Cavalry will be using the new Thunderous Charge special rule instead of Crushing Strength:
All melee hits inflicted by the unit have a +n modifier when rolling to damage. This is in addition to the units’ Crushing Strength (if any); however the unit loses this bonus when Disordered.
This means that Cavalry will have a devastating first charge, but when they get bogged down in a grinding melee then they will lose a lot of their hitting power. We’ve found that this really gives cavalry more character and emphasizes them as linebreakers. Cavalry heavy armies will still be perfectly playable of course, but you’ll need to learn to avoid protracted fights.
There are lots of little tweaks here and there throughout the game and plenty of really cool additions (more spells and scenarios anyone?) but we don’t want to give everything away right now! We’re going to be running extensive public beta testing in the coming months to make sure that we get the balance correct and there isn’t anything we’ve overlooked.
Rest assured though that the heart and soul of Kings of War is very much unchanged. The game is still extremely fun, simple to learn, places a huge emphasis on tactics and it will of course be free to download along with all of the army lists from the Mantic website. We’ll do a one or two page summary of the changes for people who have the existing rulebook, though you may need to also print off your updated army list!
I hope that everyone does back the rulebook Kickstarter because the more funding we get through it, the more we can build up the background. If the funding goes absolutely wild then we may see some new models created (I believe some abyssal creatures are simply begging for models!) but the emphasis is definitely going to be on creating an amazing 2nd edition that drips character from every single page.
The new Kings of War Kickstarter begins next week! Let us know what you are looking forward to in the comments below, what army you will be playing and what you are hoping will be updated. To keep up to date with the launch of the Kings of War Kickstarter make sure you’re signed up to our newsletter, and give the Mantic Facebook page a like for daily updates!
Not to mention this could be a golden opportunity for Mantic to show of their KoW universe by creating a unique looking faction for KoW, just imagine what could be done if Mantic forgo the usual beastman troupes and focused instead on creating something the rest of the market isn't catering towards, civilized and armored lizardmen for example.
Somebody else gets it! Praise the Gods!
How I've longed for more armored (and civilized) reptiles!
I'd love to see a catch- all humanoid army that I can dump all my various animal people into. I'm sure Mantic is aware of the demand, but they should also know that by releasing those new armies we've all got yet another range of figures to collect!
On a skirmish scale ShadowSea already does this to a degree (reptiles of all sorts with one faction, animal people of various sorts with another) and I can proxy in whatever fits within the game's parameters with no hassle (and most of my various races are painted in corresponding colors for just that purpose).
Rolt wrote: Personally while I fully understand and even commend Mantic for not wishing to continue down the proxyhammer route, I don't see why they just don't create a catch-all beastmen faction in the game.
Lets say one army that has ratmen, kobolds, gnolls, lizardmen and anything else all under one banner, a bestman empire faction if you will. Mantic can create a unified theme and mini range for the official release, while at the same time the army list itself can be created with enough generic unit types and heroes (similar to the armies of man list) so that anyone not wishing to use Mantic minis can proxy with ease.
There is no such thing as "beastmen", only an arbitrarily large number of subraces with no overlap. If a specific type of beastman brings more to the table than the others you might be able justify making an army for that subrace and that subrace alone, but trying to make beastmen in general is about as productive as trying to fill a bottomless pit. You could bankrupt yourself making batmen, catmen, ratmen, lizardmen, hyenamen, goatmen, rhinomen and elephantmen and you'd still get some guy saying he wanted fishmen.
Case in point. Mantic should be looking for concepts where there are economies of scale to be exploited, where someone else hasn't already exploited the economies of scale. Beastmen fail at the former because there is no particular keystone that you should produce en masse in HIPS like Skinks and Saurus are for Lizardmen, or Tactical Squads and Rhinos are for Space Marines; pseudohistorical men fail at the latter because trying to beat the historicals manufacturers at their own game is just burning money.
I was just joking around, but I get what you're saying. That being said, it doesn't sound like mantic is really trying to do any new races or armies with this one.
I have 4 WHFB armies that I haven't touched in two editions, no plans to buy any of Mantic's. I'd consider getting the book if I could play all my fancy models in KoW but it sounds like that's not Mantic's schtick anymore?
lord_blackfang wrote: I have 4 WHFB armies that I haven't touched in two editions, no plans to buy any of Mantic's. I'd consider getting the book if I could play all my fancy models in KoW but it sounds like that's not Mantic's schtick anymore?
I assume these are races without direct analogues?
There is a desire amongst the rules committee to produce proxyhammer lists, but of course they wouldn't be part of the rulebook (likely just a downloadable resource). If and when desire becomes action is very much up in the air though.
Hmm... I was considering buying a KoW rulebook, not sure I need any more models especially for fantasy/mass battle, but I could see backing for the book if I'm not terribroke during the runtime.
lord_blackfang wrote: I have 4 WHFB armies that I haven't touched in two editions, no plans to buy any of Mantic's. I'd consider getting the book if I could play all my fancy models in KoW but it sounds like that's not Mantic's schtick anymore?
You can probably still play most of them.
They are still going to have lists for dwarves, elves, Humans, Undead, orcs etc. They are just gonna try to do more of their own thing and less riding on WHFB's coattails moving forward.
lord_blackfang wrote: I have 4 WHFB armies that I haven't touched in two editions, no plans to buy any of Mantic's. I'd consider getting the book if I could play all my fancy models in KoW but it sounds like that's not Mantic's schtick anymore?
I can't exhault this enough! GW has basically killed my interest in playing WHFB, but I have several armies without direct analogues in KoW. If Mantic can come out with something, even not fully official but playable in pickup games, that'd let me play with my toys at my FLGS I'd be very, very happy. Otherwise, they probably stay on the shelf and KoW, for me, would be an interesting but failed endeavor.
It would be pretty cool to have something to do for my Skaven besides goblins or whatever. I think they do have an unofficial rat-men list somewhere on the forums, I guess if the same rules committee that works out the kinks in the game writes lists like that they'd be pretty respectable.
And I could totally get behind some affordable fancy dark elves...
Hollywood does remakes because proven IP's are a lot less risky and more profitable. Sticking with Fantasy Armies that exist in other games is a safer, and more likely profitable endevour.
Remember when Mantic tried to be orginal with their Ogres ?
GrimDork wrote: It would be pretty cool to have something to do for my Skaven besides goblins or whatever. ...
I always thought it was weird that they did Space Rats and not Fantasy Ones as well.
lord_blackfang wrote: I have 4 WHFB armies that I haven't touched in two editions, no plans to buy any of Mantic's. I'd consider getting the book if I could play all my fancy models in KoW but it sounds like that's not Mantic's schtick anymore?
I can't exhault this enough! GW has basically killed my interest in playing WHFB, but I have several armies without direct analogues in KoW. If Mantic can come out with something, even not fully official but playable in pickup games, that'd let me play with my toys at my FLGS I'd be very, very happy. Otherwise, they probably stay on the shelf and KoW, for me, would be an interesting but failed endeavor.
GW don't do Blood Bowl, Necromunda and didn't keep Space Hulk in print. Mantic made DreadBall, Deadzone and Project Pandora. Artsy 40k players had been making noises about Warriors of Hrud (space skaven) at least since they were shown in the 3rd edition 40k rulebook illustration.
Like small mammals at the feet of dinosaurs, nibbling on eggs and waiting for their time to arrive
I was hoping for two aquatic armies, one that was fish, eels, frogs to represent rivers and streams, and one that is crabs, different fish, squid, sharks, etc to represent oceans, then one can be good and one neutral, or neutral and evil, etc. Just an idea.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: CMON's Wrath of Kings line at least had an aquatic faction with the Hadross, for what it's worth.
Now if they'd just get around to actually delivering it...
They have still not delivered it?!? I was considering backing that one for the Hadross too.
On topic the tweaks mentioned seem simple and effective enough. If you have fantasy armies that are unused the ruleset is brilliant for quick but also tactical games. As for analogue armies maybe somebody at Mantic can come up with some sort of "official" army calculator thing?
NTRabbit wrote: I was hoping for two aquatic armies, one that was fish, eels, frogs to represent rivers and streams, and one that is crabs, different fish, squid, sharks, etc to represent oceans, then one can be good and one neutral, or neutral and evil, etc. Just an idea.
They might be able to play with the aliens presented in Dreadball that match some of the stuff you're talking about since they have turtle men and crab/squid men.
I think Mantic trying to move away from incorporating Warhammer armies is cool in as much as they are trying to be their own system, which is commendable. What it misses out on though is that Warhammer is the dominant unit/army based tabletop game out there at the moment, which is currently in a bit of a spiral nosedive, and if the rumours are true and it's going to become a skirmish game, a lot more people are likely to want to look for alternatives.
For some armies this is easy enough to do - KoM is easy to represent with the majority of an Empire army, same goes for Undead, with both instances missing out on the very biggest of creatures (Terrorgheist, Karl Franz on Stormclaw etc) or extraordinary machines (Celestial Hurricanum, Mortis Engine etc). However for many other armies there are no easy parallels. Beastmen, Skaven, Warriors of Chaos, Lizardmen etc etc.
I think having lists in the book which reflect a kind of core theme to each of these forces, without feeling the need to make miniatures for them is an ideal way to go. You can hook people into the game, they can see how well it plays, they'll feel supported and included in the game and be able to use the miniatures they already own to play it, and then they can see some cool sculpts and ideas for other forces, and seeing the encouragement and support for the game system, will eventually look at buying some for themselves.
The closest I have got to a Warriors of Chaos list is taking the Basilean list, saying they are evil instead of good (and counterpoint getting whatever bonus it is vs good armies instead of evil), and changing the names around on some of the abilities to reflect their evil nature. I could use the Orc list, but I don't think it's as representative of a WoC force.
This is a golden opportunity for Mantic, and it won't take a whole lot more effort to include with the existing armies. Call the Beastmen 'Beastlords' and let the player decide how they look (fluff background is they can come from any place in Mantica, are barbarian and tribal in nature, and have a hefty amount of shamanism in their setup). The WoC can be the antithesis of the Basilean's, where they are less rigid and more open to a free lifestyle, at the cost of the fact that you are still essentially required to venerate evil daemonic forces, which has its own price in the long run. Lizardmen could be either Beastlords, or their own type of special creation, with an advanced society where while they do have a social hierarchy, it is quite egalitarian in nature, with every part of the societal structure working to ensure every other part receives what it needs so they can best advance themselves as a whole, rather than finding certain rungs disposable and unworthy.
This is a golden opportunity for Mantic to capitalise on the Market Leader's decline, and I would hate to see them not wanting to include 3 or so more lists (which don't even need immediate miniature support), just because they want something Mantic specific. The thing is, the way Mantic army lists are done they are actually quite flexible, so long as you can imagine them being used for other miniature styles.
For example, using the Twilight Kin list I have come up with ideas for making an Army of Mordor list using the ton of GWLotR and Hobbit miniatures I have. I can also use the same list and make a sadistic force of House Bolton soldiers for a Game of Thrones style army. The Undead army list can be used to make a White Walker army (which I intend to do) with the same GoT theme. The KoM list is so wide open you can basically make any kind of human based list you can imagine, from Samurai armies, to Knight/Peasant based ones, to English Civil War styled forces, and any number of iterations between. It's this kind of thing, a nice open style with an easily adaptable set of rules which doesn't limit the imagination which keeps me wanting to play this game.
I hope they take it into consideration, because now is an opportune time to do so, and I would hate to see them squander the opportunity at hand.
lord_blackfang wrote: I haven't even checked for analogues. Even if army analogues exist, I doubt they cover most of GW's specialist models.
I own Dwarfs, Ogres, Tomb Kings and O&G and a bit of Skaven.
Well yes and no for the reason you suspected - there aren't necessarily direct copies of all the units you might own (monsters being the main culprit.
Dwarfs, Ogres, Undead, Orc and Goblins all have army lists, they don't cover everything.
GrimDork wrote: It would be pretty cool to have something to do for my Skaven besides goblins or whatever. I think they do have an unofficial rat-men list somewhere on the forums, I guess if the same rules committee that works out the kinks in the game writes lists like that they'd be pretty respectable.
The Ratmen list was actually written by one of the rules committee as it happens (and IIRC the early drafts had input from someone else who is on the committee), so it's as unofficially official as it can be right now
lord_blackfang wrote: I have 4 WHFB armies that I haven't touched in two editions, no plans to buy any of Mantic's. I'd consider getting the book if I could play all my fancy models in KoW but it sounds like that's not Mantic's schtick anymore?
I can't exhault this enough! GW has basically killed my interest in playing WHFB, but I have several armies without direct analogues in KoW. If Mantic can come out with something, even not fully official but playable in pickup games, that'd let me play with my toys at my FLGS I'd be very, very happy. Otherwise, they probably stay on the shelf and KoW, for me, would be an interesting but failed endeavor.
Valete,
JohnS
Several? Skaven, Lizardmen, and what else?
Lizardmen? Nope... That's about the only army I've never had models for. Now, the old WHFB Slann on the other hand...
But I digress... Beastmen, Skaven, and High Elves. Although I suppose High Elves proxy well enough in the KoW rules. To be honest, I haven't checked that one since they're really the most back-burner of my WHFB armies at this point...
Right I've spoken to the Stewdio and confirmed that the "missing" armies won't be done officially. They don't want factions without model support other than KoM (nature and abyssals outstanding of course) and any new races they develop will be Mantic originals, not GW substitutes.
He likes and endorses the idea of the rules committee writing, balancing and publishing "fan" lists online (probably on the Mantic website) that would be official in all but name. They won't be printed in the hardback and wouldn't be allowed at official Mantic tournaments, but strongly encouraged and endorsed for casual play and unofficial tournaments.
When did this happen or whats the rumors on this (got a link?), I don't play any GW games currently so I don't really keep up to date with their news.
Nothing has been said by GW about this, but...
Take this with a grain of salt, but we have been hearing a lot of 'traffic' about this here at Mongoose HQ - a new edition of WFB in the summer of 2015 that is going to be 'more like 40k'. If the End Times really is designed to put a cap on the current edition (remember, GW have done Big Things Happen books before without substantially altering games, starting way back when with Armageddon 3), then it does make for a nice segue into that kind of game. We have heard that the decision was between going 40k-ish or ending WFB entirely, based on the relative sales between the two.
Again, take all this with a grain of salt - this is the story floating around the industry side of things. And one doubt I do have is that they are releasing big models like Nagash which seem more geared for big battles - being plastic, they are unlikely to just end those models. Then again, you do get big models (titans!) in 40k, so perhaps it does make sense. Maybe Mantic have heard something a bit more solid and are proceeding with KoW 2.0 to fulfil the perceived gap.
Not sure who really knows outside of GW. This is just what is on the grapevine...
Daedleh wrote: Right I've spoken to the Stewdio and confirmed that the "missing" armies won't be done officially. They don't want factions without model support other than KoM (nature and abyssals outstanding of course) and any new races they develop will be Mantic originals, not GW substitutes.
He likes and endorses the idea of the rules committee writing, balancing and publishing "fan" lists online (probably on the Mantic website) that would be official in all but name. They won't be printed in the hardback and wouldn't be allowed at official Mantic tournaments, but strongly encouraged and endorsed for casual play and unofficial tournaments.
Is that a good enough compromise for people? :-)
That's probably the best compromise I could hope for. Perhaps someday, when/if Mantic can support tournaments on the scale of the now-defunct Grand Tournament series, that'll feel constraining but for now it'd have to do.
Daedleh wrote: Right I've spoken to the Stewdio and confirmed that the "missing" armies won't be done officially. They don't want factions without model support other than KoM (nature and abyssals outstanding of course) and any new races they develop will be Mantic originals, not GW substitutes.
Thats a shame, I was hoping for some Dark Knights and Evil Barbarians miniatures from mantic.
NTRabbit wrote: I was hoping for two aquatic armies, one that was fish, eels, frogs to represent rivers and streams, and one that is crabs, different fish, squid, sharks, etc to represent oceans, then one can be good and one neutral, or neutral and evil, etc. Just an idea.
You're still committing the sin of beastmen armies I mentioned earlier, where generic "beastmen" really means you want to tool 6+ different subraces with no overlap.
I would like to see an aquatic army as well, but not either of the ones you mentioned. The one I proposed was a Neutral counts-as Lizardmen faction, with Atlanteans playing the role of lightly armoured skirmishers, Naga playing the role of heavy infantry, and an Atlantean-Naga hybrid (i.e. a Mermaid) on a palanquin replacing the Slaan Mage Priest. Even if you still wanted to make one of your aquatic beastmen armies, pretty, civilised Atlanteans would create a better contrast than two different types of ugly beasts.
Orlando - Are you up for doing the thread title updating and KS stretch goal tracking on this one? I don't have the time to do my usual thing with the threads at the moment unfortunately!
(although I probably won't be able to do it immediately the stretch goals hit in the first day or two, but I should be able to get a couple of updates a day in)
At least for now, I think you can make any Warhammer army work well if you're willing to mix and match armies a bit. KoW statlines are pretty streamlined and somewhat generic (a good thing in my book) in a way that WHFB aren't "counts-as" is easy to do.
Beastmen can be pretty well represented with a combination of KoM and Abbysal dwaves
Lizardmen could pretty easily be worked from Ork/Goblins and others.
Skaven are tough, but again, I think that may be a mix of Ork/Goblin and Twilight kin or some such.
That said, it would be nice if they'd just do a lizard men and rat-men armies with some specific units and army-special-rules. Would certainly be easy enough to do and bring more folks into the game and neither army is unique to GW.
jorny wrote: Considering that they will keep the rules and army lists free on the web, using a Kickstarter for a print edition makes sense.
If that [free web rules + free army lists] continues then I agree.
I have no reason to believe they would change their practice of keeping the rules free.
lord_blackfang wrote: I haven't even checked for analogues. Even if army analogues exist, I doubt they cover most of GW's specialist models.
I own Dwarfs, Ogres, Tomb Kings and O&G and a bit of Skaven.
There's a full Dwarf, Ogre, Orc, Goblin list (O and G are separate armies in KoW, but you can mix allies of the same alignment).
The vast majority of fantasy tropes are covered.
I switched from Warhammer years ago (since I haaaaaate 8th) and haven't looked back. KoW is straight up a better ruleset. And it looks like, from the blog posts, it's going to get even better.
jorny wrote: Considering that they will keep the rules and army lists free on the web, using a Kickstarter for a print edition makes sense.
If that [free web rules + free army lists] continues then I agree.
I have no reason to believe they would change their practice of keeping the rules free.
Ronnie explicitly said in the last video that the free downloads will stay.
I always fully intended to update my ratmen, lizardmen and WoC fanlists once we'd sorted the official lists. The committee will now jointly do that to make sure they are redone using exactly the same methodology as the official rules (making them as unofficially official as we can).
When did this happen or whats the rumors on this (got a link?), I don't play any GW games currently so I don't really keep up to date with their news.
Nothing has been said by GW about this, but...
Take this with a grain of salt, but we have been hearing a lot of 'traffic' about this here at Mongoose HQ - a new edition of WFB in the summer of 2015 that is going to be 'more like 40k'. If the End Times really is designed to put a cap on the current edition (remember, GW have done Big Things Happen books before without substantially altering games, starting way back when with Armageddon 3), then it does make for a nice segue into that kind of game. We have heard that the decision was between going 40k-ish or ending WFB entirely, based on the relative sales between the two.
Again, take all this with a grain of salt - this is the story floating around the industry side of things. And one doubt I do have is that they are releasing big models like Nagash which seem more geared for big battles - being plastic, they are unlikely to just end those models. Then again, you do get big models (titans!) in 40k, so perhaps it does make sense. Maybe Mantic have heard something a bit more solid and are proceeding with KoW 2.0 to fulfil the perceived gap.
Not sure who really knows outside of GW. This is just what is on the grapevine...
Are we sure that GW really wants to shrink the scale of WHFB and that the "skirmish" idea isn't just a misinterpretation of the change to 50% Lords and Heroes shrinking the model count on the table for given point values?
OT
Has it been decided if there will be an ebook version of the rules available through the kickstarter? It seems like that would be a better use of funds if the ks goes well than just pulling out more models to throw in.
The large abyssals have been sculpted for a while and were on show at last years openday, so too was the ogre shaman that never got released, the ogres just need some ogre braves sculpting and the list is pretty much complete.
Daedleh wrote: Right I've spoken to the Stewdio and confirmed that the "missing" armies won't be done officially. They don't want factions without model support other than KoM (nature and abyssals outstanding of course) and any new races they develop will be Mantic originals, not GW substitutes.
He likes and endorses the idea of the rules committee writing, balancing and publishing "fan" lists online (probably on the Mantic website) that would be official in all but name. They won't be printed in the hardback and wouldn't be allowed at official Mantic tournaments, but strongly encouraged and endorsed for casual play and unofficial tournaments.
Is that a good enough compromise for people? :-)
That would work for me.
It'll also get more people I know playing KoW. If Mantic are lucky, it'll have them buying rulebooks, and possibly some Mantic armies. (if the figures can be brought up to scratch).
Additionally, if the rules committee could come up with some "unofficial fan" unit stats for some of the larger/different/cooler stuff that WHFB uses (and just other cool models) that can slot into the existing Official Lists.
(I'm talking about stuff ranging from Empire demi-griffs to TK Ushabti to that Undead Giant from Reaper Bones.)
Bringing some of the KoW-historical lists that are out there into the fold as "officially unofficial" but independent of the generic KoM would be great as well (Romans, Greeks, War of the Roses, etc)
Without wanting to put too much strain on the rules committee and what not... what Azazelx says sounds good to me. If the game comes out with simple and effective rules as well as tight well-balanced army lists due at least in part to the efforts of the rules committee collaborating with the author, then any un/official lists created and or vetted by them should have considerable street cred for pickup games and the like.
I'm not interested in large scale battles right now, but I wish Mantic luck/money with the KS.
It does seem that the official Mantica centric lists with unofficially official lists is a great compromise. On a bit of a related note, I think this discussion goes to show how hard it is to please everybody. Lots of people are always slamming Mantic (frequently unjustly) for copying GW, and then another group is always wishing Mantic would hurry up and do a better job of copying GW!
It comes from the origins of Mantic - proxy models for WHFB, followed by an alternative game (which is very good) for disenfranchised WHFB players with rules to proxy quite a few of their existing armies - in order to build a playerbase.
Many of us still have additional forces we'd like to play in KoW with more ...targeted rules (aside from "use Orcs or Goblins or Kingdoms of Men" - which at this stage are often our best analogues). Fill in those blanks properly, and Mantic will find that more players join the fold.
Does it work? In addition to my WHFB armies, I've bought a Mantic Ogre Army (through KS), a Mantic Undead Army (partially through KS, partially through retail) and an Abyssal Dwarf Army (through retail).
Do I want more players willing to try the game out? Of course!
Once the rest of the WHFB analogues list are in place - go fething nuts with fishmen or anything else!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: Does this mean that between KOW Kickstarters 1.0 and 2.0 the only non KS funded KOW releases have been Sveri Egilax and Arhak Soulbinder?
Gallahad wrote: On a bit of a related note, I think this discussion goes to show how hard it is to please everybody. Lots of people are always slamming Mantic (frequently unjustly) for copying GW, and then another group is always wishing Mantic would hurry up and do a better job of copying GW!
There is no contradiction here, you're conflating two different aspects of mantic's business: rules and miniatures.
Copying GW for how armies function is good, copying GW for how armies look is bad. Mechanical analogues in the rules means that people who buy your miniatures can use them more easily by using them for counts-as in WHFB, and people who buy your rules can use them more easily by using their WHFB armies as counts-as in Kings of War. Aesthetic analogues are bad because you're still spending just as much money on sculpting and tooling, but you're only selling to an already exploited market. Somebody who wants a Generic Elf army will not buy your Generic Elf army if they have already bought a Games Workshop High Elf army a decade ago. It is better to look for new, promising markets than to settle for GW's leftovers.
Are we sure that GW really wants to shrink the scale of WHFB and that the "skirmish" idea isn't just a misinterpretation of the change to 50% Lords and Heroes shrinking the model count on the table for given point values?
Not sure of anything Just reporting what I have heard. I don't understand a lot of it, but I report it...
Expensive heroes and monsters (both in point values and financial values) could equate to more of a skirmish game in a very roundabout way.
I hope that the rules guys make an officially unofficial fishman list just for all the fish talk going on in here, even if there are no future plans for a fishman line. Gotta put all those Hadross Frenzies (armored shark men) I ordered to use!
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Expensive heroes and monsters (both in point values and financial values) could equate to more of a skirmish game in a very roundabout way.
Nah, just bigger point values. Look at Nagash, points per dollar value is better than any infantry model. Most established players have all the infantry they need, so they change focus by letting you play more heroes and then selling you cool new heroes.
More on topic though, I'm still rooting for Demon models. It's a fantasy staple that Mantica is still missing, and I want something Mantic priced to field as Pink Horrors
AlexHolker wrote: Aesthetic analogues are bad because you're still spending just as much money on sculpting and tooling, but you're only selling to an already exploited market. Somebody who wants a Generic Elf army will not buy your Generic Elf army if they have already bought a Games Workshop High Elf army a decade ago. It is better to look for new, promising markets than to settle for GW's leftovers.
Not necessarily true. I own a massive High Elf army (actually, not for too much longer, as I'm finally selling it... goodbye 4th edition metal High Elf bowmen and spearmen) and specifically bought a Mantic Elf army because I really liked that they look like nothing else available.
I used to own a big O&G army back in Warhammer 4th/5th and got rid of them ~2000, but then bought like hundreds of Mantic Orcs in 2012 because I love their aesthetic (other than LOTR Uruk Hai, they are my favorite fantasy orcs)
As the rules will stay free I'll probably pass on this, unless they can offer something special. I do play KoW, but with other minis on a different scale.
I guess that means I'll hold my pocket money for the Warpath KS
I don't really need any more minis but I will be happy to do the book level pledge, especially as I've had more fun playing KoW in the last two years than I've had playing any other system since maybe the early days of WHFB6.
AlexHolker wrote: Aesthetic analogues are bad because you're still spending just as much money on sculpting and tooling, but you're only selling to an already exploited market. Somebody who wants a Generic Elf army will not buy your Generic Elf army if they have already bought a Games Workshop High Elf army a decade ago. It is better to look for new, promising markets than to settle for GW's leftovers.
Not necessarily true. I own a massive High Elf army (actually, not for too much longer, as I'm finally selling it... goodbye 4th edition metal High Elf bowmen and spearmen) and specifically bought a Mantic Elf army because I really liked that they look like nothing else available.
Likewise, I have WHF High Elf and Undead (both types) armies and I have also got the Mantic equivalents.
adamsouza wrote: More on topic though, I'm still rooting for Demon models. It's a fantasy staple that Mantica is still missing, and I want something Mantic priced to field as Pink Horrors
The Lower Abyssal Magi should be right up your street then
Eilif wrote: At least for now, I think you can make any Warhammer army work well if you're willing to mix and match armies a bit. KoW statlines are pretty streamlined and somewhat generic (a good thing in my book) in a way that WHFB aren't "counts-as" is easy to do.
Beastmen can be pretty well represented with a combination of KoM and Abbysal dwaves
Lizardmen could pretty easily be worked from Ork/Goblins and others.
Skaven are tough, but again, I think that may be a mix of Ork/Goblin and Twilight kin or some such.
That said, it would be nice if they'd just do a lizard men and rat-men armies with some specific units and army-special-rules. Would certainly be easy enough to do and bring more folks into the game and neither army is unique to GW.
Thing is, I don't mind slotting in a unit or perhaps two from one force into a different army, but I don't want to end up just making up whole proxy lists out of unit profiless scattered around the existing KoW army lists - at that point I may as well make them up myself. I'd rather have some "proper" lists, so "officially unofficial" works for me.
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Baragash wrote: Orcs + Ogres make a good fit for Beastmen, particularly as Orcs and Ogre Braves use 25mm bases and Orcs are a low discipline force.
I always fully intended to update my ratmen, lizardmen and WoC fanlists once we'd sorted the official lists. The committee will now jointly do that to make sure they are redone using exactly the same methodology as the official rules (making them as unofficially official as we can).
That sounds fantastic. Much better than "one guy on the internet who knows people at Mantic came up with this" when trying to sell it to an opponent.
adamsouza wrote: More on topic though, I'm still rooting for Demon models. It's a fantasy staple that Mantica is still missing, and I want something Mantic priced to field as Pink Horrors
The Lower Abyssal Magi should be right up your street then
I'd rather just see Magi. The Horrors have the same statline as humans, as I recall, so something like Might & Magic's Academy faction would be nice as a distinctly ahistorical ranged unit of spellslinging Apprentice Wizards.
Copying GW for how armies function is good, copying GW for how armies look is bad. Mechanical analogues in the rules means that people who buy your miniatures can use them more easily by using them for counts-as in WHFB, and people who buy your rules can use them more easily by using their WHFB armies as counts-as in Kings of War. Aesthetic analogues are bad because you're still spending just as much money on sculpting and tooling, but you're only selling to an already exploited market. Somebody who wants a Generic Elf army will not buy your Generic Elf army if they have already bought a Games Workshop High Elf army a decade ago. It is better to look for new, promising markets than to settle for GW's leftovers.
There's also the opposite of this. If the figures with a similar aesthetic are well done (concept, sculpt, production) then GW players will start to buy them as alternatives to buying the "official" models. It's been noted many times that Mantic's undead have almost become a staple of WHFB armies these days, especially given that GW's ending of tournaments and support means that the "GW only" rule means nothing to most people out there.
I have a pretty solid army worth of GW undead, but I've been more than happy to bulk them out (double the size!) with Mantic's offerings.
Sure, I won't be buying their elves or TK, but that's not because I already have a bunch of high (and dark) elves - it's because I think Mantic's elves are crap (fail on the triptych above). I've actually bought more GW models in order to flesh out my KoW elf armies.
I'll be happy either way, to be honest. If the promised "officially unofficial" army lists come to light, I'll retune my other WHFB armies into KoW ones. If they also release some decent quality figure analogues, I'll add some to those armies (as I've done with my Undead, CD, Ogres, etc)
I'm with Azazelx on his above point. My VC army is about half mantic. If they did some cool beastmen minis, then I would probably buy those minis and play WHFB with them.
Well no real major updates yet but I did find this on Mantic's facebook:
With all the excitement that the new Kings of War Kickstarter is causing, I think its time for another sneak peek! Here is a beautiful concept drawing of an Elf Mage!
Let us know what you think in the comments below and make sure you sign up to our newsletter to stay in the loop with all things Mantic!!!
Spoiler:
Theres also a piece of concept art for a Basilea character, a caster of some sort thats been in several of their recent updates/newsletters, but for the life of me I can't get a picture of it to work, someone else
wanna take a crack at it?
Also its been mentioned on Mantics Facebook that the KS starts this Friday, no exact time given. So get you wallets ready guys and gals!
Mantic Kickstarters usually start at around 13:30 GMT.
Rules snippet: when declaring a charge you have two options, either declare it as you currently do (front arc, visible, within twice speed) OR against ANY unit which charged you in the previous turn.
Daedleh wrote: Mantic Kickstarters usually start at around 13:30 GMT.
Rules snippet: when declaring a charge you have two options, either declare it as you currently do (front arc, visible, within twice speed) OR against ANY unit which charged you in the previous turn.
Err, so you can spin around after being rear charged and then counter charge?
Hmm! Could make flank charges a bit more dangerous for those frail gargoyle/woodland sprite/whatever units that aren't very tough but have m10 and fly.
It is official – the Kings of War Kickstarter goes live 1:30pm GMT on Friday 14th November.
Kicking it on
With this mini-kick we’re looking at funding the new 2nd Edition Kings of War Hardback rulebook. It will feature all new background, refreshed core rules retaining the simplicity of the game and revamped army lists that include new units, tweaks to existing units and the addition of all of the background and units from the supplements.
We’re then going to be looking at filling in some gaps in the range, namely some accessories, a new army and some additions to the existing miniatures range…
Dark Forces Rising
The Forces of the Abyss were insanely popular in Dungeon Saga and we’re finally bringing them to Kings of War.
The newest army for the game will get a reworked army list with new units and the hard plastic treatment Deadzone has recently received, with some neat and characterful additions to offer choice and variety in your force.
The Forces of the Abyss are going to be one of the primary driving forces of the story for our worldwide campaign…
2nd Edition provides you with the perfect opportunity to start that new force, so don’t miss your opportunity to get in on the ground floor.
The Choice is yours!
We’re going to have two main pledge levels to start with – one just for the book, so you can get the rules and some accessories, and one where you can choose an army.
You can do this in two flavours – either 2 small armies to form your own custom starter set (so Abyssal Dwarfs and Basileans if you like!) or 1 large army. Unlike the original Kings of War campaign, we’re going to be peppering the stretch goals between the pledge levels and the large armies – so Basilean armies will get that new War-wizard included for example, whilst others will be able to add one (or three!) on.
Each of these armies are great value from the get-go (and are only going to get better!!), and will be the only way to get the existing models – we won’t offer the sets individually. You can pick those up from your friendly local gaming store, or our website.
What do you want to see?
What accessories do you think are missing from the Kings of War range?
Where would you like the campaign to go after funding the Forces of the Abyss army? Would you like to see the Forces of Nature or new miniatures for an existing army? Let us know in the comment below.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll be straight in for an Abyssal force if their going to be in hard plastic
angelofvengeance wrote: New Basilean Men at Arms? I hear they were pretty horrendous first time around?
I'm quite a mantic fan but the men at arms were horrendous. The quality of the plastics for deadzone has reassured me that hopefully such mistakes are a thing of the past.
My biggest hope and desire is that whatever new figures end up getting funded, ALSO gets stats for Dungeon Saga. The family aren't too big on mass battles, but love them some boardgames, and can often be talked into skirmish games as well.
I'd probably go in for some Abyssals (especially if they get some big stuff) as well as some Salamanders if they do get to tool a Forces of Nature army.
The big question will be, what am I funding though? Restic foot sloggers or HIPS sprues of rank and file troops?
Are those succubi going to be proper plastic? If so, while I still don't trust Mantic enough to buy them sight unseen, I really want to buy a bunch of them.
angelofvengeance wrote: New Basilean Men at Arms? I hear they were pretty horrendous first time around?
Just buy one of the dozens of historicals kits that does the same thing better for cheaper.
AlexHolker wrote: Are those succubi going to be proper plastic? If so, while I still don't trust Mantic enough to buy them sight unseen, I really want to buy a bunch of them.
angelofvengeance wrote: New Basilean Men at Arms? I hear they were pretty horrendous first time around?
Just buy one of the dozens of historicals kits that does the same thing better for cheaper.
Everything you say here is accurate.
I'll go in for $1. Upgrade to the books after Christmas. Possibly some models after they actually show them. And if they don't show them before release/final survey, I'll never buy them.
AlexHolker wrote: Are those succubi going to be proper plastic? If so, while I still don't trust Mantic enough to buy them sight unseen, I really want to buy a bunch of them.
angelofvengeance wrote: New Basilean Men at Arms? I hear they were pretty horrendous first time around?
Just buy one of the dozens of historicals kits that does the same thing better for cheaper.
Mantic are passing up a good opportunity to partner with Warlord on historical humans.
They don't have to make a single new unit but can repackage pike & shotte, ancients (like Romans/Celts) and other black powder and before lines.
They save the costs associated with making a whole new line and Warlord sells more of their figs and they spllt the monies.
Awesome thanks for posting that edlowe, very excited for this.
I'll definitely be down for the core rulebook (plus mini book), might even throw in for either the two small armies (Abyss + Undead) or one large one (Mega Abyss) pledges depending on the deals.
Really hoping we fund an absolute ton of new plastic Abysmals and Mantic make them as mutil-part and convertible as humanly possible, they're off to a great start with the Enforcers/Forge Guard etc,
(lets not think about the MoA for now...) I've got a degree of faith in them that they can transfer that through to KoW.
I need to make my dark swamp lizardman army Mantic, it won't work without plastic abysmals. Anyway, good luck orlando on keeping the thread updated
I have no clue how to refer to multiple Abyss guys, Abysmals sounds about right I'm sure Mantic have official wording worked out, also speaking of which I really like that tall collar/helmet combo on the far-right Succubus head.
Dunno really, I mean surely they don't refer to themselves as either Abysmals or Denizens of the Abyss, they must have an actual racial name right? I was under the opinion its "everyone else" who refers to them as Forces of the Abyss. But you know what, I think I'm
just gonna give up this chain of thought before I go even more off-topic...
So how about that upcoming KoW mini-KS guys and gals, pretty fricking hype right, Riiiight.
@Edlowe
lower abyssals, abyssal warriors and succubi especially would be great to get in hard plastic considering their all core troops, hopefully they'll soon be followed by Morlocks (big heavy hitters) and either Heralds of the Abyss/Abyss Riders.
Really wish I knew what Tortured Souls and Effrits are meant to do within the army, both give me the opinion or being more elite choices which could mean they'll get stuck in Resnic.
Azazelx wrote: Possibly some models after they actually show them. And if they don't show them before release/final survey, I'll never buy them.
I did that with Deadzone Wave 3, we have still yet to see the "improved" Forge Guard and Peacekeeper sprues.
The mini-ks idea does seem to have gone out of the window somewhat, but am interested to see what material they intend rank and file miniatures to be made in. Also, it may just be me, but is some of the concept art a bit more cartoony than usual?
True Grim, Mantic have a reliable and growing fanbase. It is also good to see the fantasy ruleset getting a bit of love this time. If the miniatures are going to be HIPS I think we should expect some longish (or perhaps realistic is a better term as many Kickstarters have unrealistic dates to not put off backers) delivery dates to offset some of the issues they have had with Deadzone plastics.
Damn, completely forgot about the Morlocks stubby legs and weird proportions, well I guess I'll have to do some serious conversion work on those, lengthening the legs and replacing the head seems like the best start.
Just have to hope I can actually convert resnic models.
@Edlowe
Yeah good idea, tortured souls as missile troops would make sense IIRC the Abyss have no range options outside of magic (Zap!)
In terms of fliers they already have Gargoyles and by the looks of it both Succubi and Hellhounds for fast attack, so Effrits hard hitting magic casters maybe?
Something like Might & Magic's Juggernauts wouldn't have been anything particularly exciting, but it would at least have been functional. Plus, it would be cool to build a tabletop Inferno army of Cerberuses, Succubi, Maniacs and Juggernauts.
Those guys look pretty cool Alex, pretty normal by video game demon standards but still interesting visually, at least you could potentially convert something like those without too much work.
Now for the current stubby leg Morlocks I present two possible conversion ideas:
I've got a steady IV of incoming kickstarters and a hugemongous backlog, so if they get the plastics out to me slowly I won't mind if it's for quality's sake. If I order any... I've already got a sizeable skaven horde (probably 25% larger too after I de-base them all and get them spread out a little bit onto multibases eventually...), fairly robust undead force, and even some smurfs (and a couple of giants because why not!).
So I was hoping to use this KS to buy my wife and I our first two armies and give the game a go, but was wondering if players could suggest at what level the game starts representing its rules well?
IE, you COULD play 40k at 500pts, but most would say it only really FEELS like 40k at 1500pts and upwards...
What "size" armies give a real flavor for the best aspects of Kings of War? And roughly what model count is that?
It can work at anything from 500 points up, but starts to shine from 1000-1200 points up. 1600-2000 on a 6x4 is the sweet spot.
The £50 army boxes tend to be around 800-1000 points, give or take. £100 box sets are"everything you'd need (barring characters you can kitbash from regular dudes), plus extras to swap in/out between games.
I was told the cut-off date for the new rulebook last night, and it's relatively close so I reckon there will be two shipments - the first with the new rulebook and the second with models funded. I don't see Mantic being able to produce the hard plastics in a timeframe that short.
^sounds about right! I figure that will make people just in for the books happy and people ordering models should maybe by now expect the longer wait as they check and recheck them for quality.
Thanks for the points info. Hopefully the Kickstarter will have some flavor of... "$300USD" gets you the hardbound new rules and two modestly sized armies, type of thing.
Any suggestions for a pair of armies that are a fun match-up on the table? Maybe some interesting, but contrasting playstyles?
Mantic are passing up a good opportunity to partner with Warlord on historical humans.
They don't have to make a single new unit but can repackage pike & shotte, ancients (like Romans/Celts) and other black powder and before lines.
They save the costs associated with making a whole new line and Warlord sells more of their figs and they spllt the monies.
Split the monies? I suppose they could simply sell WLG's models on their website as a retailer - in the same way that they sell AoW models (or used to, I haven't checked for awhile). There are a fair few people out there who use KoW as a historical ruleset - with a few fan lists floating around. I haven't done so myself, but if they were going to partner with/sell WLG (or Perry) stuff, they could "officialise" those rules as well.
Really though - models are where the money is in this game, so they'd probably much rather you bought an Undead or Basilean army instead...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: True Grim, Mantic have a reliable and growing fanbase. It is also good to see the fantasy ruleset getting a bit of love this time. If the miniatures are going to be HIPS I think we should expect some longish (or perhaps realistic is a better term as many Kickstarters have unrealistic dates to not put off backers) delivery dates to offset some of the issues they have had with Deadzone plastics.
Yeah. Expect a year or more. Multiple waves of Pledge Managers. All the usual trappings. That's why I'll happily just get my rulebook and maybe see if a mate of mine wants to jump on for a rulebook and some (existing/wave 1) models as well, if they offer them at a good enough price.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: So I was hoping to use this KS to buy my wife and I our first two armies and give the game a go, but was wondering if players could suggest at what level the game starts representing its rules well?
IE, you COULD play 40k at 500pts, but most would say it only really FEELS like 40k at 1500pts and upwards...
What "size" armies give a real flavor for the best aspects of Kings of War? And roughly what model count is that?
In my experience, the armies start to feel like different, distinct, different forces at 1200+ (at a minimum).
Model count I'm not sure about. I base my models on 25mm rounds instead of 25mm squares so my models maintain compatibility with other skirmish systems (plus I prefer round bases!) So a unit of "20" only uses 12 models for me.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Thanks for the points info. Hopefully the Kickstarter will have some flavor of... "$300USD" gets you the hardbound new rules and two modestly sized armies, type of thing.
Any suggestions for a pair of armies that are a fun match-up on the table? Maybe some interesting, but contrasting playstyles?
I play orcs versus my brother in laws undead. They play completely different from each other, but both have plenty of different troop types to not get stale. I love playing cavalry orcs
^I think undead (or nature, though they don't have models atm so...) with their prevalence of shambling (can't double move on their own) units and dark surge (magic that moves your own units around if they're shambling) provide a different playstyle to a lot of lists.
Ogres have a lot of big dudes (they have a variety of goblins too if you still want *some* runty things) so they're kind of different.
Having never actually played Kings of War (yet owning a fair amount of models), I was not aware Ogres and Goblins can run together. Good news for me.
I could probably slap an army together right quick in that case. I'm sure my brother's got enough undead in various states of shambling he can drag to the field.
Does Mantic have any sort of movement trays? Seems like something we'd need if units fight in blocks.
I second Warbases.co.uk as suggested by .Mikes., they are just what you need for KOW.
I agree with Daedleh on game size too. But remember if coming over from WFB your army will tend to be larger (under KOW rules 1.0 as it stands) as units are cheaper in points cost and there is less access to big gribblies and expensive characters.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Any suggestions for a pair of armies that are a fun match-up on the table? Maybe some interesting, but contrasting playstyles?
fwiw, I just picked up the KoW Two-Player Battle Set on Amazon. 95+ mini's for $57 from UK-based Buy4Less. Arrived without any problems, much earlier than the one-month delivery estimate. No tracking. Orcs vs. Undead, plus 32-page rules. Assembly and painting required. Some unboxing and reviews available on the 'net. Enjoy!
Azazelx wrote: Split the monies? I suppose they could simply sell WLG's models on their website as a retailer - in the same way that they sell AoW models (or used to, I haven't checked for awhile). There are a fair few people out there who use KoW as a historical ruleset - with a few fan lists floating around. I haven't done so myself, but if they were going to partner with/sell WLG (or Perry) stuff, they could "officialise" those rules as well.
Really though - models are where the money is in this game, so they'd probably much rather you bought an Undead or Basilean army instead...
Yeah. Expect a year or more. Multiple waves of Pledge Managers. All the usual trappings. That's why I'll happily just get my rulebook and maybe see if a mate of mine wants to jump on for a rulebook and some (existing/wave 1) models as well, if they offer them at a good enough price
There are discussions ongoing with several companies for producing an "official" Kingdoms of Men model range using another companies sprues. Nothing set in stone yet, but there might be something in the KS armies.
The rulebook will be with you sooner than you think. Certainly any events in the second half of the year will use 2nd edition. I don't think that Mantic can get the plastics, let alone rest of the models, done in that timescale so I'm pretty certain it'll be multiple waves.
Daedleh wrote: There are discussions ongoing with several companies for producing an "official" Kingdoms of Men model range using another companies sprues. Nothing set in stone yet, but there might be something in the KS armies.
I am a little ignorrant on this issue but what is the difference betwwen Basilea and Kingdoms of men army?
Daedleh wrote: There are discussions ongoing with several companies for producing an "official" Kingdoms of Men model range using another companies sprues. Nothing set in stone yet, but there might be something in the KS armies.
I am a little ignorrant on this issue but what is the difference betwwen Basilea and Kingdoms of men army?
Basilea is the left over of an old empire in Mantica. Aesthetically it takes cues from various Mediterranean and south eastern european medieval and older cultures, and thematiclly it's very religious based, with paladins, warrior nuns and elohi, which are basically angels with fiery swords (and awesome models).
Kindgoms of Men is basically anything else anybody wants. The units are varied and open to interpretation on how they look, so you make a medieval norman or a Byzantine or an Anglo Saxon army with the same list using minis from any range.
Daedleh wrote: There are discussions ongoing with several companies for producing an "official" Kingdoms of Men model range using another companies sprues. Nothing set in stone yet, but there might be something in the KS armies.
I am a little ignorrant on this issue but what is the difference betwwen Basilea and Kingdoms of men army?
Basilea is essentially a romanticised + Fantasy elements version of the Byzantine Empire.
The Kingdoms of Men army is designed as a catch-all list to allow people who really want to use humans to be able to create an army from the substantial range of suppliers of human models already on the market. Fluff-wise it represents generic fiefdoms not aligned with any given political player, though IIRC the fluff implies many of them have some weak ties to Basilea through shared political ancestry (because the history of Basilea takes many elements from the decline of Rome).
old Mantica human empire = Roman Empire
Basilea = Byzantine Empire, ie surviving Eastern half of the old Roman empire
Kindoms of Men = All the other western Roman successors like the Goths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, Angles, Saxons, etc
They share a common ancestry, but where Basilea has gone super religious and reliving former glories, the kingdoms of men have moved onward and outward, changing with the times and getting maybe a little barbarian, at least compared to what came before.
Passing on the Kickstarter, I don't like the look of the stubby-legged demons. If anything good comes of this, I'll pick it up from Miniature Market for lower than Kickstarter prices after the fact.
agnosto wrote: Passing on the Kickstarter, I don't like the look of the stubby-legged demons. If anything good comes of this, I'll pick it up from Miniature Market for lower than Kickstarter prices after the fact.
You're passing on a second edition rulebook for one game because you don't like the concept sketch for a miniature for a different game?
^While possible in some cases, I dunno if I'd expect to find *everything* for such a price. Battlezones still cost a little there than they did during the campaign, but not by a large amount. Waiting to see is still an entirely valid option. Of course then less goodies get funded, but that's just how it is.
Convict team looks pretty solid.
Well hardplastic should stay around obviously for poseable kits with options/extras for one thing. Talking about their BGplastic vs restic though... May be a sound argument. I think there are some dynamic deadzone poses that would have been a little harder to pull off in their boardgame material, but it seems like this new stuff is coming along very well.
Is that Grogan in the back some kind of new sculpt, a guard maybe? I don't recall having seen it before.
@Lordblackfang I think those Molochs are probably the KoW moloch sculpts, they existed before DS was announced, so they're probably the sculpt we'll see for molochs in KoW2.0
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: I second Warbases.co.uk as suggested by .Mikes., they are just what you need for KOW.
I agree with Daedleh on game size too. But remember if coming over from WFB your army will tend to be larger (under KOW rules 1.0 as it stands) as units are cheaper in points cost and there is less access to big gribblies and expensive characters.
Thanks for the suggestions guys. I know this isn't a news/rumor type of sub-conversation but it is relevant and helpful for fence-sitters and the uninitiated.
So, we've never played Warhammer Fantasy. In fact the only mass-battles "move whole giant blocks of forces" game we even remotely played has been a little game called Arcane Legions. We've always been 40k/Warmahordes players primarily, and have played smaller scale games, but not "bigger". I always wanted to try Warhammer Fantasy as so many of the models look amazing, but pretty decisively people say KoW is just the better playing game period.
Plus, I have mountains of "credit" with Mantic considered the couple games i've worked on now. :-p So "essentially free" makes it an easier impulse buy.
So I see on their site they full retail 2000pt armies for about $200usd, I bet during the KS I really will be able to scrape together 2, 1500-2000pt armies for $300.
lord_blackfang wrote: Apparently these are production models. If Mantic can get board game plastic to this level, do we even need anything else?
The board game plastic is twice as expensive, and means that you can't clean, convert and assemble your miniatures yourself. I'd much rather have twice as many miniatures on sprues than half as many possibly torn off, possibly without mould lines removed, and possibly misglued.
agnosto wrote: Passing on the Kickstarter, I don't like the look of the stubby-legged demons. If anything good comes of this, I'll pick it up from Miniature Market for lower than Kickstarter prices after the fact.
You're passing on a second edition rulebook for one game because you don't like the concept sketch for a miniature for a different game?
I don't mind the stubby legged demon that much, and the concept art is nice enough. I'll wait for high quality close ups as always before deciding on Mantic models. I don't think they'll tempt me with their figures, but I never know.
agnosto wrote: Passing on the Kickstarter, I don't like the look of the stubby-legged demons. If anything good comes of this, I'll pick it up from Miniature Market for lower than Kickstarter prices after the fact.
You're passing on a second edition rulebook for one game because you don't like the concept sketch for a miniature for a different game?
The assumption here, based upon information available, is that the concepts and produced minis presented so far will be incorporated into thKoW Kickstarter since it's the same faction (Abyssals). Why would they create Abyssals for the board game and then make some entirely different models for the wargame? I'm not saying that it isn't possible but it just seems too much like duplication of effort and since the two games share a common background and "fluff" it would be confusing to potential consumers.
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Zond wrote: I don't mind the stubby legged demon that much, and the concept art is nice enough. I'll wait for high quality close ups as always before deciding on Mantic models. I don't think they'll tempt me with their figures, but I never know.
Which is kind of my point as well. Mantic generally doesn't show such close-ups during the KS or before shipping so I'll wait until production. Saving a bit of money now isn't as attractive as dumping my unwanted minis on Judgedoug later (though I'm sure he would appreciate it).
The assumption here, based upon information available, is that the concepts and produced minis presented so far will be incorporated into thKoW Kickstarter since it's the same faction (Abyssals). Why would they create Abyssals for the board game and then make some entirely different models for the wargame? I'm not saying that it isn't possible but it just seems too much like duplication of effort and since the two games share a common background and "fluff" it would be confusing to potential consumers.
Counterpoint, the Deadzone/Warpath Brokkrs and Dreadball Xtreme Brokkrs are different sculpts, albeit same aesthetic.
The assumption here, based upon information available, is that the concepts and produced minis presented so far will be incorporated into thKoW Kickstarter since it's the same faction (Abyssals). Why would they create Abyssals for the board game and then make some entirely different models for the wargame? I'm not saying that it isn't possible but it just seems too much like duplication of effort and since the two games share a common background and "fluff" it would be confusing to potential consumers.
Counterpoint, the Deadzone/Warpath Brokkrs and Dreadball Xtreme Brokkrs are different sculpts, albeit same aesthetic.
Good point, one that I wasn't aware of. Here's hoping they realize that stumpy leg devils don't impart a sense of horror that would be expected from the denizens of the nether reaches...
I severely dislike stumpy legs aesthetic, so I specifically will avoid getting anything with stumpy legs (or lightly armored female infantry, I hate that gakky fantasy trope)
I severely dislike stumpy legs aesthetic, so I specifically will avoid getting anything with stumpy legs (or lightly armored female infantry, I hate that gakky fantasy trope)
Which is kind of my point as well. Mantic generally doesn't show such close-ups during the KS or before shipping so I'll wait until production. Saving a bit of money now isn't as attractive as dumping my unwanted minis on Judgedoug later (though I'm sure he would appreciate it).
Me too. I need a ruleset for the pile of WHFB plastic I've accumulated over the years, especially as our kids are getting old enough to express interest in the hobby. I still don't know what to do with all the 40K/SciFi stuff though. Hate the thought of selling it but hate the fact that none of it gets utilized.
Me too. I need a ruleset for the pile of WHFB plastic I've accumulated over the years, especially as our kids are getting old enough to express interest in the hobby. I still don't know what to do with all the 40K/SciFi stuff though. Hate the thought of selling it but hate the fact that none of it gets utilized.
That's exactly the reason I got into KoWKS 1 back in mid 2012. And I've been playing it non-stop for over two years.
I gave Warpath a try for some 40k models, and it was also pretty fun. (Not as good as Kings of War is)
Does it at all feel weird that (as is my understanding) you never remove models from units as damage/wounds are suffered?
Watching friends play KoW Version 1, it was always the only pet-peeve I had that just seemed so strange... The 40k guy in me likes removing dead bodies from attacks... its a silly thing, but it feels like something is "happening" when going through that motion.
Does it at all feel weird that (as is my understanding) you never remove models from units as damage/wounds are suffered?
Watching friends play KoW Version 1, it was always the only pet-peeve I had that just seemed so strange... The 40k guy in me likes removing dead bodies from attacks... its a silly thing, but it feels like something is "happening" when going through that motion.
For fantasy it's okayish. IRL there were usually not that many casualties until one side broke and ran and was cut down.
Does it at all feel weird that (as is my understanding) you never remove models from units as damage/wounds are suffered?
Nope. I thought it would but it never did. And when you're playing with movement trays it looks easthetically better on the board when you don't have big black sqaures on the boards where bodels used to be.
I watched a WHFB batrep this week and it actually struck me as odd that all the models were being taken off.
Does it at all feel weird that (as is my understanding) you never remove models from units as damage/wounds are suffered?
Watching friends play KoW Version 1, it was always the only pet-peeve I had that just seemed so strange... The 40k guy in me likes removing dead bodies from attacks... its a silly thing, but it feels like something is "happening" when going through that motion.
Being a WHFB player (and some Warhammer Ancients) from 1994-2010, it did feel weird at first... but element basing is really where it's at. Army list creation is done in literally 1/10th of the time. Same with army setup, especially if your units are based that way.
Now I cannot stand individual model removal for mass battles games. I play Warlord Historicals (HC,P&S,BP), Ga Pa (WSS), Kings of War... they're all element based, and it is so, so much easier. And much quicker. For the love of god, so much quicker. My 2000 point games of Kings of War - which have as many models as a 3000-4000 point Warhammer game, are done in 2 hours.
I mean, we're already abstracting the game anyway (you know Warhammer is written as a 20:1 scale, so a regiment of 20 models is supposed to "represent" 400 models)
40k is a skirmish game, models are 1:1 scale, so individual casualty removal makes sense.
Warpath (currently) has individual casualty removal.
Also, I'm personally not much of a fan of casualties in modern/sci-fi games. There's very few KIA in modern combat, it's about suppressing the enemy into losing the will to fight. I prefer systems where casualties are A Big Deal and suppression/pinning/outmaneuvering actually takes enemies out of action.
Counterpoint, the Deadzone/Warpath Brokkrs and Dreadball Xtreme Brokkrs are different sculpts, albeit same aesthetic.
I'd certainly fething hope that the space football player models have different sculpts to the space skirmish shooting game models. I mean, really.
It's much more likely that the KoW models will have a lot more in common with the DKH ones. They could be the exact same sculpts, or simply based on the same art. Just how much they have in common remains to be seen.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Stupid question for fans/players...
Does it at all feel weird that (as is my understanding) you never remove models from units as damage/wounds are suffered?
Watching friends play KoW Version 1, it was always the only pet-peeve I had that just seemed so strange... The 40k guy in me likes removing dead bodies from attacks... its a silly thing, but it feels like something is "happening" when going through that motion.
It actually doesn't to me. It might have taken a game or so to get used to it, but it just plays so much faster. I still prefer the concept of removing models for skirmish games (regardless of fantasy/sci-fi or historical) but for big-block-of--unit fighting like this it works well. The strangest part for me is the lack of leaders/champions in units. Not superheroes, but it can be nice to have a little bump. Some of the magical items can add a bit of flavour though and cover this ground.
No, but the Abyssals are all "new" models while the DKH undead are new replacement sculpts to the 4+-year-old models. So it's a moot point. I actually wouldn't be surprised to see the new DKH undead officially repurposed into KoW units - especially since there are no current Mantic Skeleton archers, for example.
I tend to think magical items wrecked warhammer as some items were carried by anything that could, they ceased to be special or have much meaning story wise.
Anyhow I'll be interested to see what incentive is offered to start an army with this is KS.
I'm having a derp moment and can't find where the Rulebook pledge price was stated. I know it had the hardback and mini rulebook in the pledge, but how much was it again?
Alex C wrote: I'm having a derp moment and can't find where the Rulebook pledge price was stated. I know it had the hardback and mini rulebook in the pledge, but how much was it again?
Alex C wrote: I'm having a derp moment and can't find where the Rulebook pledge price was stated. I know it had the hardback and mini rulebook in the pledge, but how much was it again?
Alex C wrote: I'm having a derp moment and can't find where the Rulebook pledge price was stated. I know it had the hardback and mini rulebook in the pledge, but how much was it again?
$50 for 2 Rulebooks
$100 for 1 Rulebook and an Army
Slight correction - the "2 rulebooks" are the hardback with full background and expanded material, plus the softback which is just rules + army lists. The larger pledges will have both books included.
E: also I think the $50 pledge might be a "gamers package" with a full set of dice, wound markers, disordered/wavering tokens, spell effects, line of sight template etc.
Does it at all feel weird that (as is my understanding) you never remove models from units as damage/wounds are suffered?
Watching friends play KoW Version 1, it was always the only pet-peeve I had that just seemed so strange... The 40k guy in me likes removing dead bodies from attacks... its a silly thing, but it feels like something is "happening" when going through that motion.
It's actually a fairly common practice for a lot of historical games, especially at smaller scales or when you have large ranks of identically armed troops. A lot of games use a 'wound tracker' type mechanic, even seen some where you sub out the standing troops for 'casualty markers' which are wounded, diorama style miniatures.
The key point for this is that you need a way of tracking the reduction in fighting capability/morale of the fighting unit, and there are different ways of representing the same thing.
A bit off topic but the Puggimer (or however he spells it) guy on the Mantic forums ran the gencon L2P KoW events and he had made some really neat damage trackers for the regiments out of what appeared to be old/liberated mageknight/heroclix base things, thought that was pretty handy. If Mantic makes an official version I'll have to buy it, otherwise i'll have to look for some cheap 'clix/etc for the same purpose.
Ooh, that reminds me of something that would be great to get on the succubus sprues: a reclining succubus. All you'd need to do is paint some blood on her top leg and perhaps give her one of the angrier looking heads and it would work well for a Wounds counter.
Those casualty markers are sweet. I'm torn between trying to implement them into my trays themselves or to just get something like that/heroclix bases.
TwilightSparkles wrote: I tend to think magical items wrecked warhammer as some items were carried by anything that could, they ceased to be special or have much meaning story wise.
Anyhow I'll be interested to see what incentive is offered to start an army with this is KS.
I'm not talking about crazy stuff. I don't like those either. I'm talking about the 5-15 point stuff that adds a little flavour or individuality to a unit, or represents a unit champion instead of a character model with godlike stats.
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AlexHolker wrote: Ooh, that reminds me of something that would be great to get on the succubus sprues: a reclining succubus. All you'd need to do is paint some blood on her top leg and perhaps give her one of the angrier looking heads and it would work well for a Wounds counter.
I think Hasslefree has us covered if Mantic don't do something of the like.
I posted in the generic "Mantic fantasy thread" and wondered why there was no discussion about the KoW kickstarter in it. But it stands to reason that it has its own thread. So I brainfarted ; p
I have to admit, I'm a bit jazzed to pledge my dollar. Here's part one of a little ballad that's been going through my head waiting for this kickstarter.
Sitting there alone, F5 button waiting.
"The campaign is a go." "Are you sure?"
Dakka's not convinced but the Mantic Blog
has the evidence.
No need to abort.
The countdown starts.
Watching in a trance, the fans are certain.
No stretch goals left to chance. All is working.
Trying to relax at his computer
"Add on a piece of pie," jokes Backer Tom.
The count goes on.
4, 3, 2, 1.
Goals before us,
funding, falling,
Kicktraq worthless,
pledging, pledging more.
More to come. How does this diddy end, again? It's almost as if Backer Tom is an allegory for addiction.
It's like Mantic just has to give me a reason, just a little bit's enough. Just a second, my credit's not broken just bent and I can learn to pledge again.
Slight correction - the "2 rulebooks" are the hardback with full background and expanded material, plus the softback which is just rules + army lists. The larger pledges will have both books included.
E: also I think the $50 pledge might be a "gamers package" with a full set of dice, wound markers, disordered/wavering tokens, spell effects, line of sight template etc.
Thinking about it, this could be a really clever move by Mantic. The KoW rules have got a good reputation online, but I still think people are turned off by 'print-your-own' pdfs, and from some reports it's been hard to get hold of some of the KoW printed materials recently. A book(s) only pledge, with a selection of accessories to help play, at a really competitive price (certainly compared to other major-brand mass fantasy battle rulebooks) might hoover up a lot of people that have heard good things, but otherwise sat on the fence for whatever reason.
Not sure I personally want any more models (got about 3000pts of Undead to paint) but it's good the option is there for anyone new.
Anyway, just checked and today's assembly finishes just before this starts, so should have just enough time to get back to the office and hitting F5.
Daedleh wrote:It'll have been a 3 year edition by the time the book gets released, which is a bit shorter than the original plan. There has been a noticeable drop in attendance at Kings of War events this year and after gathering feedback it's become apparent that the balance issues (heavy cavalry, Obsidian Golems, Drakons, Elohi, artillery in general) are the reason for it...
Second edition allows us to directly address the communities concerns as well as improve the game in general. It is a bit faster than originally planned, but it's the right thing to do. The rules will still be free to download and I believe that there's a softback with all the rules & army lists planned if anyone doesn't want to buy a new hardback.
Nicely said. A couple of things that put me off KoW* were the premeasured heavy cavalry, and no leadership role for skirmishing-CC-monster 'heroes'. (That, and the GW apron string of a 125x100mm footprint for orc regiments or whatnot, but that's a wee thing.)
Are they looking into the fact that no one finds taking standards for units worthwhile? All the lists I see have people not bothering to take them. Seemed strange to me, as it's almost a must-include in other game systems.
By 'other game systems' do you mean Warhammer and... uh... Warhammer? Most games I've seen auto-include unit banners by not bothering about them. TBH that's another point: I'd rather Mantic didn't bother about them either. They and musicians are like another GW throwback: a layer of crunch, with minimal, self-cancelling effects, that doesn't quite fit with the streamlined theme of KoW. They're a bit pointless.
One other game I've seen with unit standard options is Mayhem. (I can see myself going in on the KS for the new KoW book, but it's rules will need a decent shakeup to pull me away from that) But there, standards contribute to the overall leadership/action points pool at the start of a turn. They boost lower leadership armies and have a much more important role than a point of combat resolution.
Actually, you know, dropping the need for banners and musicians entirely is something I could completely get behind for units. That way you can model them if you wish, otherwise you can leave them behind. The Army Standard Bearers could stay around for their bonus', but the unit ones could become merely decorative. I really like that idea.
Fenriswulf wrote: Actually, you know, dropping the need for banners and musicians entirely is something I could completely get behind for units. That way you can model them if you wish, otherwise you can leave them behind. The Army Standard Bearers could stay around for their bonus', but the unit ones could become merely decorative. I really like that idea.
I wouldn't mind this. As I use other companies models I can't always find command options for my preferred units. Sure, nothing stops me from just saying "these guys have standards and/or trumpets", but I much prefer having them represented on the board. Scrapping command models in units solves this for me. With emphasis on "me"
So, about two hours remaining then. Hopefully I'll be home from work by then.
edlowe wrote: Molochs from the openday (courtesy of the mantic forum)
Spoiler:
GW called from the '90's; they want their style back.
Who's the sculptor?
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AlexHolker wrote: I still think the Molochs are the weak point in the Abyssals line. Pot-bellies and legs half as long as they should be don't look very good.
Fenriswulf wrote: Actually, you know, dropping the need for banners and musicians entirely is something I could completely get behind for units. That way you can model them if you wish, otherwise you can leave them behind. The Army Standard Bearers could stay around for their bonus', but the unit ones could become merely decorative. I really like that idea.
I think there's a decent number of people who could get behind that idea.........
Standards and musicians are just something more to forget in a game. Especially musicians as you tend to forget about them looking at the back of your units for the majority of the game.
Does it at all feel weird that (as is my understanding) you never remove models from units as damage/wounds are suffered?
Watching friends play KoW Version 1, it was always the only pet-peeve I had that just seemed so strange... The 40k guy in me likes removing dead bodies from attacks... its a silly thing, but it feels like something is "happening" when going through that motion.
Warhammer Fantasy, and to an extent 40K, are unusual in that they're large or mass battle games that concentrate on individual casualty removal. A couple of historical successors to the defunct Warhammer Ancient Battles keep casualty removal, and I think there are a couple of other fantasy games that do the same, like the old Fantasy Warriors and Reaper's Warlord [citation needed], but I could rattle off a list as long as my arm of big unit-block games that take away whole units, or at least large parts of them.
Yep, it's definitely my preference for fixing Standards & Musicians. We'd still have the magic artefacts that give the same effect, so I wouldn't see the problem.
Fenriswulf wrote: Actually, you know, dropping the need for banners and musicians entirely is something I could completely get behind for units. That way you can model them if you wish, otherwise you can leave them behind. The Army Standard Bearers could stay around for their bonus', but the unit ones could become merely decorative. I really like that idea.
I don't think I made it clear in my first post, but yes: I agree. There's a cottage industry out there for printed historical regimental standards and the like and they look really impressive, but I'm not sure if there's many historical games that actually have rules for them. Not in the few I've read, anyway. They act as set dressing and (appropriately) unit recognition; and like I say, I guess it's assumed everyone has them, and that the cancelling effect causes them to be ignored or they're subtly woven into overall effectiveness. (I assume the former)
Fenriswulf wrote: Actually, you know, dropping the need for banners and musicians entirely is something I could completely get behind for units. That way you can model them if you wish, otherwise you can leave them behind. The Army Standard Bearers could stay around for their bonus', but the unit ones could become merely decorative. I really like that idea.
Yeah, you know, I'd just accepted them and not thought about it like that, but it makes perfect sense.
Huh. I hadn't thought about the idea of dropping the command options, but the more I think about it the more it makes sense. You could just wrap it into the statline of irregular skirmisher/militia type units that their nerve stat is lower and imagine that might be because they're not drilled to follow musical commands and standards. Or not, and it would still be fine.
Yeah, seems like the sort of thing to streamline, and it makes unit entries that much shorter.
One thing I would really like to see as a stretch goal are cheap plastic movement trays with edges that come sized to troops/regiments/hordes of certain base sizes. I know plenty are available from accessory manufacturers, but if mantic can get them done cheap it would be nice.
Let's see if the Abyss army is going to be sweet. Pledged for one of those.. but will easily DROP MY PLEDGE OH MY GOD THIS KS IS GOING TO FAIL SO HARD. MANTIC'S MINIATURES ARE SO UGLY LOL
Hello,
I am not a expert but i know that,
Mantic Games are working away on the next iteration of Warpath which will be out this Friday. Check out the new cover art for the rules below featuring the surly Corporation troopers...............
Gallery Votes. Can you suggest me how to do mini-kick ?
tatafonaija
Just in for the rulebooks for now as I have plenty of fantasy minis, I'll hold off on anything else until the PM the EB saving is only $5 and I can wait and see how the sculpts/sprues turn out. I could be interested in the forces of the Abyss if there's enough hard plastic in it the sculpts at least are digital (from the end of the video)
The blog mentioned the Forces of the Abyss getting some hard plastic
The Forces of the Abyss were insanely popular in Dungeon Saga and we’re finally bringing them to Kings of War.
The newest army for the game will get a reworked army list with new units and the hard plastic treatment Deadzone has recently received, with some neat and characterful additions to offer choice and variety in your force.
I think we will not know until any stretch goals go up, and I think the first few will be gamer aids (dice, measures etc) rather than miniatures. I am unsure as to why anyone would bother pledging for anything but the rulebook at the moment.
I put in for the early bird given that I was impressed by the size of the mega starter army. I'll be more interested to see if the two normal starter armies are as good of a deal as that would be more useful for getting new players trying the game.
May well step back down for the rules only, just a sucker for early birds. Well also depending on what if any accessories and individual add-ons they do.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This was linked in the kickstarter comments:
Vermis wrote: I don't think I made it clear in my first post, but yes: I agree. There's a cottage industry out there for printed historical regimental standards and the like and they look really impressive, but I'm not sure if there's many historical games that actually have rules for them. Not in the few I've read, anyway. They act as set dressing and (appropriately) unit recognition; and like I say, I guess it's assumed everyone has them, and that the cancelling effect causes them to be ignored or they're subtly woven into overall effectiveness. (I assume the former)
Yeah sorry, hope I didn't step on your toes, but when you pointed it out I did indeed suddenly think "wait, why are these guys necessary anyway?". Removing them wouldn't make the system any worse, and would help to actually streamline it a lot more. The Army Standard Bearers stay around, so they can be represented by any kinds of banners you might want to carry, and the units can either have them or not, it's left to the discretion of the player. For example, you might not think they're worthwhile having in units of Undead or Orcs or Goblins, but might find you want a lot of pennants and the like in a Kingdoms of Men army.
Daedleh, any chance you can forward this up the chain and have them look into it? Currently most people don't use them anyway, so their removal wouldn't be much of a problem.
The miniatures tempt me not at all, but the rulebook is something I may be interested in in the future... by the time this releases, GW should have gotten through their "End Times" schtick, and I should be able to choose which system to use (eventually with my chaos dwarfs).
Yeah it was wise to throw the digital stuff in there early while people are signing up like mad. Chessclock is probably pretty available in most appstores so hopefully they at least theme it in KoW flavor. Army builders are always useful.
seems like waiting for v.2 for 
tho it's not too bad a material for the larger figures.
