.Mikes. wrote: Question for anyone in the know: if someone epldges $1 so they can take advantage of the post-chrimble add on, and adds $50 to the the manager for the two rulebook pledge level, are they still eligible for an applicable stretch goals?
You'd have to ask in the comments for definite clarification, but according to the wording on the update (which isn't necessarily accurate) you wouldn't get Blaine or the counters, which both specify the $50 pledge level rather than just $50.
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Daedleh wrote: Last I heard they won't be restic, but I strongly suspect that Molochs will be added to the deal.
Oh they're definitely happening here, let's not be coy about it... I'm curious on the material though.
Daedleh wrote: Last I heard they won't be restic, but I strongly suspect that Molochs will be added to the deal.
Interesting that leaves HIPS - I doubt it would be worth it for the sales they would generate but I suppose one sprue with options, 3 of the same sprue in a set or metal too heavy I'd say or resin more expensive/time consuming or the same boardgame plastics from DS. I'll be impressed if they go HIPS
Oh, and I forgot to do the obligatory "I'm in for..." post.
So I'm in for a rulebook (because it's a great system and I like the sound of all the changes thus far. Hell, I think I invented one of the big ones years back on the Mantic forum, but I'd have to look into my history to find that post).
Happily I'm not in the market for a ton of new figures to paint, so I can ignore the army deals (and damn you Mantic for including Blaine in the book deal), looking forward to seeing what addons happen though, just in case there's anything too good to pass up on.
Riquende wrote: Oh they're definitely happening here, let's not be coy about it... I'm curious on the material though.
Oh yeah there's no doubt they'll actually happen - it's just a question of whether they'll be added to the deal or not. I reckon they will be, but it depends what else they're planning to tool for Abyssals. I don't want to say for definite what material they are, just that last time I heard it wasn't going to be restic.
I don't there has been a Mantic KS that didn't add heavily to the original pledge levels. I'm pretty sure all the mega army deals will be 20+ models stronger by the end of this.
I'm now in for $150 to get the Rule Book + Abyss Mega Army
Have mantic ever considered running a Blaine kickstarter and just adding games/ armies as addons? Seriously, how many Blaine's do people need? Does he come from a village like the Smurfs where everything is Blainey?
Blaine.
No but as an extra dimensional traveler he really tends to get around.
Take that how you wanna, you know Blaine will.
Oooh best idea evar... Quick I need some Blaine catchphrases or witty remarks, I've been meaning to make myself a nerdshirt with the airbrush and this just fits the bill. I can't blaine you for staring (with a blaine photo in the middle), obviously all Blaine shirts need fire on the back as he's perpetually walking away from explosions.
Hey guys... just to share some Dakka love and my fondness for this place, I did want to let you know that i'm currently talking with Ronnie about the possibility of doing something very cool for Kings of War that was suggested in this very thread.
Fingers crossed he gives me the go ahead, but it would make a couple of you pretty happy.
I actually think Blaine could be the star of a really awesome comic or novel series where he just wanders around the various Mantic-verses kicking arse and blowing stuff up. Oh, and riding a T-Rex, because why the hell not!
Well, I'd read it!
Alternatively, they could do something where every universe has a Blaine, and some force brings them all together to, er, kill loads of stuff!
Paradigm wrote: I actually think Blaine could be the star of a really awesome comic or novel series where he just wanders around the various Mantic-verses kicking arse and blowing stuff up. Oh, and riding a T-Rex, because why the hell not!
Well, I'd read it!
Alternatively, they could do something where every universe has a Blaine, and some force brings them all together to, er, kill loads of stuff!
GrimDork wrote: No but as an extra dimensional traveler he really tends to get around.
Take that how you wanna, you know Blaine will.
Oooh best idea evar... Quick I need some Blaine catchphrases or witty remarks, I've been meaning to make myself a nerdshirt with the airbrush and this just fits the bill. I can't blaine you for staring (with a blaine photo in the middle), obviously all Blaine shirts need fire on the back as he's perpetually walking away from explosions.
GrimDork wrote: No but as an extra dimensional traveler he really tends to get around.
Take that how you wanna, you know Blaine will.
Oooh best idea evar... Quick I need some Blaine catchphrases or witty remarks, I've been meaning to make myself a nerdshirt with the airbrush and this just fits the bill. I can't blaine you for staring (with a blaine photo in the middle), obviously all Blaine shirts need fire on the back as he's perpetually walking away from explosions.
"I've traversed the multiverse and all I got was this t-shirt"
"Blainiac"
"Insane in the memblaine"
"I like to play the Blaine game"
"You're so Blaine, you probably think this shirt is about you"
"Blaine: The omnidimensional Chuck Norris"
"I ain't got time to bleed"
"Ol' Painless is waitin'..."
"This place makes Nexus Psi look like Old Earth..."
Tanakosyke22 wrote: Since I am starting to get into Kings of War now, how competitively good is a mixed Orc and Undead army? How competitively good is Kingdoms of Men if done in a Mediveal Crusader style? I ask because those are the two armies I have in mind fluff-wise for my army, but I was wondering how much the difficulty curve is for each army.
I don't know about the allied Orcs & Undead. Some elements from the Undead army (Werewolves) would be useful to counter the relative lack of anti-war engine units that Orcs have, but I think the two styles would clash. Orcs need to get into combat as soon as possible because they're such a glass hammer, but Undead are much slower than Orcs. Trying to screen Orcs with Undead tarpits like Zombies would just mean the Orcs moving slower and getting picked off before they get to combat.
KoM is an extremely flexible list that can do pretty much any style of play you want.
All 3 armies are up there in terms of "competitiveness" on their own in 1st edition, but 2nd edition will see some pretty big balance changes anyway so there won't be competitive and uncompetitive armies. I'm not naive enough to think that we'll get perfect balance, but we are definitely going to get it to the point where you're never penalised or on the back foot for choosing certain units (or even certain armies) over another. Having said that, the two styles of Orcs and Undead seem to clash a bit and I don't think there'll be much synergy to take advantage of. KoM will definitely be the easier of the two styles to learn, just because you won't be learning how to overcome the alliances clash of styles.
So Orcs and Undead would a 'skornergy (as the warmahordes circles would put it)' going for them? I might pick up more of my KoM idea then for a while if it does not change too much. Still want to give the idea a go for a Orc/Undead alliance, but I do not want to tinker with it too much until I get a good handle on the rules and game more.
Daedleh wrote:
Tanakosyke22 wrote: I was thinking slightly cavalry-heavy Crusaders to start with support troops like Crossbow men and Trebuches with some Infantry to clean up and/or tarpit then. Kind of Brettonia-esque, but more emphasis on a somewhat balanced force.
Cavalry and trebuchets are very, very powerful in the current edition They'll be toned down a bit in the new edition, but still more than playable.
Thinking ahead you would be peppering the enemy with your crossbows and trebuchets while your cavalry wing swings down a flank. You might want to keep some melee infantry or cavalry with your ranged units for protection against enemy cavalry, or be accepted to lose them quickly (within 3/4 turns). Your cavalry will need to pick targets of opportunity and make sure they don't get bogged down in a protracted fight. Punch a hole in the enemy lines (with your ranged units targetting enemy models nearby to disrupt their counter-charge), get behind the enemy and start mopping up.
Yeah, I was thinking along the lines like that. Only issue later on finding a good Trebuchet model I can get my hands on. I know I can possibly custom make my own or look on Amazon/Ebay/Swap shop for the GW one, but I am not that skilled with custom builds or get a expensive GW model. Since I already have the Sargeants-at-Arms kit from Fireforge (made a troop of Mounted Scouts and Mounted Sergeants out of it), next on my buy list for KoM is one of the Fireforge Knights kits and the Men-at-Arms. That is after I get some money to buy more carrying cases and finishing painting what I need to.
^Hopefully not! I would be interested in the 40k books (there are fantasy books too probably?) if they were more reasonable. Actually I haven't even looked at prices lately, it's more of a trained assumption.
Nah, if I had a transdimensional whatsit I'd probably be able to get a game in occasionally =/
If i already pledged 150$ can i then add on a mega army or whatever else afterwards, or did it have to be right away?
No, you're fine.
As a pledger, you'll get access to the pledge manager once the project closes, where you'll be able to specify your choices of faction etc.
You'll also be able to add on additional items (at KS prices) at this point too. It was mentioned earlier in the thread that it will remain open until after Christmas, so you've got plenty of time to make your mind up/raise extra cash or whatever.
Also, the word from Mantic (via their blog) is that ranged units (archer, crossbow, etc) are going to be better in the new edition. this is very good news for me. I've been running a couple of archer units in my KoM/AbbysalDwarves force and they are not great units right now.
Yeah. I've got ranged units in several of my armies simply because I have the models and am going for "thematic" over "effective" and they are indeed a bit crap.
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ced1106 wrote: fwiw, I got a confirmation that they will have a $1 add-on level, but not if Blaine will be included if you make a $1 add-on pledge and take a $50 add-on:
You'd hope so. Especially since Ronnie seemed to make a big deal about being Christmas-friendly to backers who have other priorities right now.
A special rule which lets a unit ignore the moving and shooting penalty seems in order. Obviously not given to everyone, but mounted archers certainly.
Also, Kingdoms of Men Scouts are worse than Heralds of Woe
Makes sense. Horse archers and their ilk should really be able to do what they're supposed to.
I own the KoW 1st edition, but never actually got around to playing a game of KOW. Looking at the Abyss army deals, the Mega starter is basically twice the regualr starter, trading out 10 gargoyles for a Champion. Are champions that good, and or expensive, or should I just get a double basic starter and convert a champion ?
Spoiler:
Forces of the Abyss Starter Army ($50) 40 Lower Abyssals/Lower Abyssal Magi
20 Succubi
10 Gargoyles
Forces of the Abyss Mega-Starter army ($100) 80 Lower Abyssals/Lower Abyssal Magi
40 Succubi
10 Gargoyles
1 Abyssal Champion with alternate components
That pretty much all happened on day 1, though. Yesterday was very slow and today is slower.
Which makes sense, I suppose. The standard pledge for established players is only $50. Presumably many already have their armies, so they have no reason to pledge more unless they want to add Abyssals. The KS needs to draw in new players to get the $150 pledges in.
I'll be honest, I completely forgot about that lol. Still, $156K isn't doing too badly really. Mantic did actually say they didn't need this to go to the same levels as Deadzone or Dungeon Saga.
While Mantic have obviously planned further in advance, the main point honestly was to get the 2nd edition book. Anything on top (though they were quite confident they could get some Abyssals stuff done) is a bonus. I think the plan was/is to do the mini-kickstarter now and get the book done to the best possible quality before running a larger KS at some point in the future to flesh out the rest of the miniatures range.
Possibly. I don't have the money for it atm anyway so its a moot point but I have no problem paying for mantic rules sight unseen as their rules track record is solid. It would have to be amazing concepts, amazing prices considerably lower than expected retail and an army and/or game system I was really really into for me to consider buying mantic models sight unseen again. That and the fact mantic has been criticised in the past for a lack of transparity when it comes to showing models before they are finished and a seemingly declining quality of customer service (Thats not fair actually, their customer service is often good once you can get hold of them. Problem is you can be waiting weeks or months before that happens) is likely going to make people more reluctant than they were before.
You know... the project I've been pitching wasn't expressly Blaine-centric, but the people of Dakka seem to have spoken, so I guess I am changing course. :-p
Trebuchet is $39.
If you join the Old Glory Army for $50/year, you get 40% off all orders for a year.
This is what it looks like
Thats is much cheaper than the GW one, let along not made in its crappy fine cast. My only question is that is Old Glory Army a reliable place to by from?
Thats is much cheaper than the GW one, let along not made in its crappy fine cast. My only question is that is Old Glory Army a reliable place to by from?
Old Glory is one of the oldest and most reliable historicals miniatures company (they also have fantasy and sci fi, too). They also attend nearly every convention and have a huge presence at Historicon. I've purchased countless items from them in the past and have always gotten impeccable service. Plus the prices, with the Old Glory Army discount, are unbeatable.
Note that I believe the Siege Weapons do not have crew as they are period-army-agnostic; you'll have to supply your own or get a pack of crew from the closest historical period to your army.
Such as this pack of Hundred Years War crewmen - http://oldglory25s.com/view_product.php?product=HAW-12
Thats is much cheaper than the GW one, let along not made in its crappy fine cast. My only question is that is Old Glory Army a reliable place to by from?
Old Glory is one of the oldest and most reliable historicals miniatures company (they also have fantasy and sci fi, too). They also attend nearly every convention and have a huge presence at Historicon. I've purchased countless items from them in the past and have always gotten impeccable service. Plus the prices, with the Old Glory Army discount, are unbeatable.
Note that I believe the Siege Weapons do not have crew as they are period-army-agnostic; you'll have to supply your own or get a pack of crew from the closest historical period to your army.
Such as this pack of Hundred Years War crewmen - http://oldglory25s.com/view_product.php?product=HAW-12
I was planning to get some Fireforge Foot Sargents, so I can use some left overs from the box as the crew. Might have to check them out a bit more. If I manage to get some more miniatures from them, I might consider the discount possibly.
Thats is much cheaper than the GW one, let along not made in its crappy fine cast. My only question is that is Old Glory Army a reliable place to by from?
Old Glory is one of the oldest and most reliable historicals miniatures company (they also have fantasy and sci fi, too). They also attend nearly every convention and have a huge presence at Historicon. I've purchased countless items from them in the past and have always gotten impeccable service. Plus the prices, with the Old Glory Army discount, are unbeatable.
Note that I believe the Siege Weapons do not have crew as they are period-army-agnostic; you'll have to supply your own or get a pack of crew from the closest historical period to your army.
Such as this pack of Hundred Years War crewmen - http://oldglory25s.com/view_product.php?product=HAW-12
+1 for Old Glory. I've owned a fair amount of their products over the years. They do vary a bit. Some of their older stuff is a bit cruder, and the scale of the minis does tend a bit toward 25 than 28. Still, the cast-on bases give them a bit of a boost and they look fine on the Battlefield with GW minis, especially if they are in their own units.
As for warmachines, a bit of scale difference means exactly nothing since there was never any exact standard for these things. As to warmachine crew, you do have to supply your own, but it's
A couple of things about Old Glory
-The "Old Glory Army" is a customer club that costs $50 to join, and you get a free pack of figs and 40% off for a year. You can save even more by picking up your orders at one of the conventions they attend to not pay shipping
-Old Glory has two websites. http://oldglory25s.com is the direct site. http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com is a site that sells the same items from the same company, but usually has better pictures. I gather it was a deal from back in the day when OG preferred to outsource the figs.
-Old Glory also casts and sells many (though not all) items from West Wind in the USA. Some really great fantasy stuff in particular in the "Dwarf Wars" section. You'll find them in the 25mm section even though most WestWind stuff is 28-30mm.
Here's a couple picture with some common figs for comparison
Lastly, there are other companies producing good warmachines for the historical market. A search for 28mm or 25mm and the type of Warmachine (Ballista, Trebuchet, etc) will get you other options.
As for the relative "slowness" that some are seeing I think a couple of issues are seeing the funding slow down:
1. Apart from the Abyssals if I wanted an army (mega/starter/whatever) I could have it by the end of the week and have it painted long before this is fulfilled. Some people will place this above saving 20-30% at retail.
2: The Abyssals themselves, entirely subjective obviously but to me they look a bit static and goofy. The army deal is currently a bit dull as well being made up of 3-4 unit types/characters only.
3. Time of year, how many of us really have much spare cash heading into the Winterval?
That said this is still doing well and a few "add on wednesdays" or nature army plastics could still see it soar. Failing that the book is funded and it has already obliterated its funding goal.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: You know... the project I've been pitching wasn't expressly Blaine-centric, but the people of Dakka seem to have spoken, so I guess I am changing course. :-p
Is this a fighting fantasy story where we play as Blaine?
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: You know... the project I've been pitching wasn't expressly Blaine-centric, but the people of Dakka seem to have spoken, so I guess I am changing course. :-p
Is this a fighting fantasy story where we play as Blaine?
The problem I am hitting with this is market saturation. I am quite interested in the abyssals, especially if the plastics come out as nice as the new warpath ones (thanks guys for pointing them out to me), but I've got a bunch on the way ANYWAY with DS, and I've just shelled out quite a lot for Tre Manor's last KS.
He's probably going to be doing another one in January, and I expect I will go all in on that, because I just love his work so much, and that makes me think I should sit this out rather than overspend.
Blaine is NOT available if you only want a $50 add-on (eg. $1 pledge and $50 starter army): "Unfortunately Blaine would not be included in that pledge, it's included in Living Legend and God of War."
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: You know... the project I've been pitching wasn't expressly Blaine-centric, but the people of Dakka seem to have spoken, so I guess I am changing course. :-p
Is this a fighting fantasy story where we play as Blaine?
WITH ART BY GARY CHALK?!
taaake myyy monneeeyyy
LOL. I'm a writer, not a miracle maker... unless we're going with some Neil Gaiman-esque, Sandman-y, interpretation of what a writer is. :-p
Its just something fun, that Mantic hasn't done before (hint #1), and would see myself writing something while teamed up with an artist (mentioned in this thread) on a project (of the sort someone mentioned in this thread). :-p
If it doesn't end up being part of the Kickstarter it might just end up happening as a side-thing as the idea really excited Ronnie.
ced1106 wrote: Blaine is NOT available if you only want a $50 add-on (eg. $1 pledge and $50 starter army): "Unfortunately Blaine would not be included in that pledge, it's included in Living Legend and God of War."
Someone post this in Update 8 for Alan.
What about a $1 pledge bumped up to a LL or GoW in the Pledge Manager phase?
There are always men willing to tread the darker paths of magic to achieve their temporal ambitions. Some do it to retrieve a lost love, others to reunite their family after great tragedy,
or maybe just to find the lost lore of times long gone. Whatever the motivation, none start down this path with evil intentions, yet all reach the same, terrible destination.
Spoiler:
Dwarf Warsmith
The warmachines and devices of the Dwarfs are tended to by these wise priests of the forge. Though they are talented enough artisans in their own right, there true talent lies in their ability to
literally ‘speak’ to the spirits innate to all such constructs, repairing damage, adjusting aim and improving efficiency as they chant and mutter to their charges. Any Dwarf Lord worth his axe will have at
least one Warsmith travelling with each of his armies.
Spoiler:
If we hit this stretch goal, we will sculpt and produce two brand new hero figures for the range, both with alternative bits to create variant heroes.
The Undead Necromancer will provide the Undead forces with magical firepower whilst the dwarf warsmith keeps the gun line and artillery firing. We will include the metal Undead Necromancer
free with every Undead Mega-Starter Army and the metal Dwarf Warsmith free with every Dwarf Mega-Starter Army.
You can choose one Mega-Starter Army as part of a pledge of God of War ($150 and Early Bird) or add one on for $100. You can also pick up additional Necromancers or Warsmith for $8 each.
These heroes join our growing cast of heroes with variant options, including the Basilean War-wizard, Elf Mage and Abyssal Champion!
You’ll be sure to want more than one of each to get the most out of your army’s capabilities.
Quite like the fact that the Necromancer comes with an Alt living head, a nice little idea that.
ced1106 wrote: Blaine is NOT available if you only want a $50 add-on (eg. $1 pledge and $50 starter army): "Unfortunately Blaine would not be included in that pledge, it's included in Living Legend and God of War."
Someone post this in Update 8 for Alan.
What about a $1 pledge bumped up to a LL or GoW in the Pledge Manager phase?
That's the way it's been for all the Mantic projects I've backed, you get all the stretches if you take a pledge level during or after the campaign. The only ones that haven't been that way were the total funding bonuses for Deadzone (resin 1st gen and reb commander, etc), and the timed bonus for Mars Attacks... which everyone may have ended up with anyway, I think it was the Tiger Corps?
Hoo boy, I think it's gonna be a slow trek to unlock those minis. Oh well though, the kickstarter has done what it was supposed to do, the $50 pledge is already quite nice, and we should see some traffic from add-on wednesday.
I am at 250 right now 1 Abyssal army and hopefully 1 Forces of Nature, but at the rate things are unlocking, I am likely going to do 50.00 at the end instead.
15,000.00 for two characters seems a bit steep to me personally when the Abyssal are not fleshed out yet.
I need Effrits,Warriors, and Molochs, to seal the deal on the Abyssal mega army.
Anyone know a good cheap US Site to snag some Basileans? Anyone know if the quality of the M@A or Paladins has improved?
primalexile wrote: Anyone know a good cheap US Site to snag some Basileans? Anyone know if the quality of the M@A or Paladins has improved?
The quality of the Men At Arms can't improve. They are literally Chinese knockoffs of Mantic's original sculpts, and they will never get any better unless somebody melts the mould down and starts over. Just buy some historicals - they'll be cheaper and higher quality.
primalexile wrote: Anyone know a good cheap US Site to snag some Basileans? Anyone know if the quality of the M@A or Paladins has improved?
The quality of the Men At Arms can't improve. They are literally Chinese knockoffs of Mantic's original sculpts, and they will never get any better unless somebody melts the mould down and starts over. Just buy some historicals - they'll be cheaper and higher quality.
I imagine Mantic still has the original masters for them, so it should be possible to have them properly made (though it's probably just as cheap to work from the same concept and digitally sculpt them).
Honestly, I think that resculpting the men-at-arms and goblins (include weapon options for both) would be a great investment in goodwill. Ideally, resculpt them and include a single sprue for free with the basic pledge level as a "money where your mouth is" option.
decker_cky wrote: Honestly, I think that resculpting the men-at-arms and goblins (include weapon options for both) would be a great investment in goodwill. Ideally, resculpt them and include a single sprue for free with the basic pledge level as a "money where your mouth is" option.
Redoing the goblins isn't a bad idea, but tooling the Men at Arms was already stupid the first time. Money spent redoing the Men at Arms is money not spent on another, more deserving kit.
decker_cky wrote: Honestly, I think that resculpting the men-at-arms and goblins (include weapon options for both) would be a great investment in goodwill. Ideally, resculpt them and include a single sprue for free with the basic pledge level as a "money where your mouth is" option.
Redoing the goblins isn't a bad idea, but tooling the Men at Arms was already stupid the first time. Money spent redoing the Men at Arms is money not spent on another, more deserving kit.
Honestly, I think that resculpting the men-at-arms and goblins (include weapon options for both) would be a great investment in goodwill. Ideally, resculpt them and include a single sprue for free with the basic pledge level as a "money where your mouth is" option.
Re-tooling the MoA and Goblins is a great idea, but sadly I don't see Mantic managing it any time this century, they still have the rest of the Abyssal, Forces of Nature, numerous units/heroes missing from the
other armies and of course those Twilight Kin are gonna need actual models at some point, theres just so much other stuff right now that has a potential higher priority.
Now if Mantic could re-tool both of them outside of a kickstarter as a sort of "surprise improvement" that would incur some serious good will from the fan-base.
Hell at this rate I'd be happy if they just released Remy's original MoA sculpts in resnic as special order, it probably be an improvement.
I don't think there's really anything that covers the niche Men-at-arms target. You can find humans with X equipment anywhere, but MaA are distinctly non-historical high fantasy models to fit with the high fantasy look of the basileans. All the GW humans are distinctly quasi-historical at the moment, and historicals are...well...historicals.
The concept of the MaA is good. It was just the worst execution Mantic could have ever done.
I'll put it this way, people but GW MaA for bretonnian armies and state troops for empire armies, even though they could easily cross over. People buy historical models for the right periods and the right forces for a reason. Fit is an important consideration.
AlexHolker wrote: Redoing the goblins isn't a bad idea, but tooling the Men at Arms was already stupid the first time. Money spent redoing the Men at Arms is money not spent on another, more deserving kit.
I'm not sure I follow.
Upgrading the Men at Arms from third-rate historicals to second-rate historicals still doesn't give people a good reason to choose them over the first-rate historicals that are already on the market. Any money spent on redoing the Men at Arms is better spent on products that do not have this quality of competition. This also has the advantage of meaningfully expanding the range of units available to the player, which wallowing in the same rut fails to do.
Theres are whole bunch of these D&D Miniatures - Lords of Madness Trebuchets all over Ebay for about £4
Any good?
Wow! Thanks for posting that, I've never seen one of those before. That would be perfect for my "Bad Guy" army (mostly Chaos Kingdoms of Man) army. It's even got some nice chaos'ish elements on it. Should I buy 2 or 3 of these?
Pre-paints can be a great source for warengines and even figures. My buddy has some Mage Knight war engines that look fine, and this trebuchet looks even nicer than those. Here's two that he put on new bases with the stock paintjob.
Yeah there are so many great ranges of historicals that I can't see the MAA being worth while.
My gf is going to use a combination of perry medevils and some fireforge guys for paladins. Mixing those wouldn't work for histroicals but works fine for fantasy baselians.
carlos13th wrote: Yeah there are so many great ranges of historicals that I can't see the MAA being worth while.
My gf is going to use a combination of perry medevils and some fireforge guys for paladins. Mixing those wouldn't work for histroicals but works fine for fantasy baselians.
Very True. I think some of the baselians units are pretty good, but the Men at Arms set is not one of them.
What I really wish for is for some company to do a plastic "Fantasy accessory sprue" that would provide a single themed sprue of alternate heads, helmets, shields, weapons, and possibly some command and decorative elements to add to the armor of perry plastics. Really, that's probably what Mantic should have done in the first place rather than the product they came out with.
decker_cky wrote: Honestly, I think that resculpting the men-at-arms and goblins (include weapon options for both) would be a great investment in goodwill. Ideally, resculpt them and include a single sprue for free with the basic pledge level as a "money where your mouth is" option.
Redoing the goblins isn't a bad idea, but tooling the Men at Arms was already stupid the first time. Money spent redoing the Men at Arms is money not spent on another, more deserving kit.
I'm not sure I follow.
Because only rare deviants like me would ever want a fantasy human army that wasn't 100% historical.
decker_cky wrote: Honestly, I think that resculpting the men-at-arms and goblins (include weapon options for both) would be a great investment in goodwill. Ideally, resculpt them and include a single sprue for free with the basic pledge level as a "money where your mouth is" option.
Redoing the goblins isn't a bad idea, but tooling the Men at Arms was already stupid the first time. Money spent redoing the Men at Arms is money not spent on another, more deserving kit.
I'm not sure I follow.
Because only rare deviants like me would ever want a fantasy human army that wasn't 100% historical.
Still not sure Alex or Bob are making sense. Even though there are clearly better historical plastic infantry kits available, retooling the MaAs makes alot of sense. Mantic has already committed to the Baselians as a faction with a unique look that carries across all units and as being distinct from the other KoM. For the entire faction to be viable Manic NEEDS to get a good quality plastic core unit for them, and the current MaA is just not that. It doesn't even have to be amazing, just something on par with the basic orc or Dwarf sprues.
Eilif wrote: Still not sure Alex or Bob are making sense. Even though there are clearly better historical plastic infantry kits available, retooling the MaAs makes alot of sense. Mantic has already committed to the Baselians as a faction with a unique look that carries across all units and as being distinct from the other KoM. For the entire faction to be viable Manic NEEDS to get a good quality plastic core unit for them, and the current MaA is just not that. It doesn't even have to be amazing, just something on par with the basic orc or Dwarf sprues.
Having a good quality plastic core unit is important for the health of the Basilian faction. But that does not require that that unit be the Men at Arms, or even that that unit must be produced in house. Give them a core unit that's actually worth making in plastic, and the problem disappears.
Eilif wrote: Still not sure Alex or Bob are making sense. Even though there are clearly better historical plastic infantry kits available, retooling the MaAs makes alot of sense. Mantic has already committed to the Baselians as a faction with a unique look that carries across all units and as being distinct from the other KoM. For the entire faction to be viable Manic NEEDS to get a good quality plastic core unit for them, and the current MaA is just not that. It doesn't even have to be amazing, just something on par with the basic orc or Dwarf sprues.
Having a good quality plastic core unit is important for the health of the Basilian faction. But that does not require that that unit be the Men at Arms, or even that that unit must be produced in house. Give them a core unit that's actually worth making in plastic, and the problem disappears.
So for the human faction based on pseudo historical roots, what would be a viable alternative?
Eilif wrote: Still not sure Alex or Bob are making sense. Even though there are clearly better historical plastic infantry kits available, retooling the MaAs makes alot of sense. Mantic has already committed to the Baselians as a faction with a unique look that carries across all units and as being distinct from the other KoM. For the entire faction to be viable Manic NEEDS to get a good quality plastic core unit for them, and the current MaA is just not that. It doesn't even have to be amazing, just something on par with the basic orc or Dwarf sprues.
Having a good quality plastic core unit is important for the health of the Basilian faction. But that does not require that that unit be the Men at Arms, or even that that unit must be produced in house. Give them a core unit that's actually worth making in plastic, and the problem disappears.
So for the human faction based on pseudo historical roots, what would be a viable alternative?
Depends on what you are looking for? For a Medieval/Crusader theme, Fireforge makes some good models. Wargames factory I know has some good 16th century Japan kits and Greek Hoplites if you are into that.
adamsouza wrote: All this discussion of KoM being pretty flexible with what figures you use may finally be the excuse I needed to get some Wargames Factory Figures.
Which ones are you looking at? Quality is not uniform across their ranges.
adamsouza wrote: All this discussion of KoM being pretty flexible with what figures you use may finally be the excuse I needed to get some Wargames Factory Figures.
Which ones are you looking at? Quality is not uniform across their ranges.
They generally got better as they went along. Honestly though, I was just thinking of whatever filled the unit description best. I'm way more into fantasy than historical accuracy. Their greatest appeal to me is the low cost per model.
Samurai and Hoplites were my favorites. I like the Amazons, Vikings and Numidians, too, but they were definitely early kits with some facial issues or stiff posing. The Persian kit might work well with spare arms (and probably heads) from another kit.
The Romans and Celts were really bad, though.
I have seen some pictures of the Shock Troops converted into fantasy heavy infantry (with head and hand swaps) and they worked surprisingly well.
Eilif wrote: Still not sure Alex or Bob are making sense. Even though there are clearly better historical plastic infantry kits available, retooling the MaAs makes alot of sense. Mantic has already committed to the Baselians as a faction with a unique look that carries across all units and as being distinct from the other KoM. For the entire faction to be viable Manic NEEDS to get a good quality plastic core unit for them, and the current MaA is just not that. It doesn't even have to be amazing, just something on par with the basic orc or Dwarf sprues.
Having a good quality plastic core unit is important for the health of the Basilian faction. But that does not require that that unit be the Men at Arms, or even that that unit must be produced in house. Give them a core unit that's actually worth making in plastic, and the problem disappears.
Not sure what you mean by "not worth" making in plastic. Plastic is best for units that will be most plentiful in a given army, usually the core basic infantry unit. MaA are the core infantry unit of the Baselians. Further, because Baselians now have a particular aesthetic, a generic historical infantry is no longer a good substitute. I stand by my initial statement that Baselians need a good quality plastic core unit, and that MaA are that unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Went ahead and ordered 3 of these Trebuchet from Ebay.
In particular this listing http://www.ebay.com/itm/Trebuchet-Lords-of-Madness-52-D-D-Dungeon-Miniature-Rare-VG-/321581438940?pt=Games_US&hash=item4adfbf57dc I'll take some scale pics when I get them. I'd like to base them up, but if they won't fit on 50mm squares, I'll just leave them off. Anyone know the diameter of the large size D&D bases that they appear to come on? Even if Ballista's get taken down a notch in the new rules, it will be good do have some nice flavorful (note the screaming face motif on the bracing sections) for my army.
I've also got a LoTR Orc Ballista that I'll probably paint up for my KoW army.
The "basileans" can easily be used as an oriental faction. Treat regular troopers as Ashigaru, use samurais for knights, and theme the elohi as kamis instead of angels...
If anyone didn't listen to the latest ep of Mantic Radio, Ronnie was on there talking a lot about KoW2, and something which jumped out at me was most of the large infantry, like ogres and elohie, will have the option to run them as single figure units away. I like this idea.
What are the approximate point values for the Starter Armies?
(Also, same question for the Mega Starter Armies....)
I hear most games are 1000 points minimum. I'm wondering if the Dwarf Starter army will get me there, and if not, how much more I would need to add (maybe just Blaine?).
At this point, I'm thinking of just pledging $51 for the Dwarf Starter Army, free shipping. I'm guessing you will still be able to download the 2nd Edition rulebook for free?
If not, I may pledge $100 and get the rulebooks, counters, Blaine, and Dwarf Start Army.
The Dwarf Wolf wrote: The "basileans" can easily be used as an oriental faction. Treat regular troopers as Ashigaru, use samurais for knights, and theme the elohi as kamis instead of angels...
Kingdoms of Men makes a more historically accurate Samurai army.
I dunno I think some of the regular KoW players hereabouts have reported playing fun games in the 500-600 point range, correct me if I'm wrong guys. I think if you're playing mass battles regiment-based combat game, a larger size is better of course, but KoW seems to run pretty well at various sizes.
Mezmaron wrote: What are the approximate point values for the Starter Armies?
(Also, same question for the Mega Starter Armies....)
I hear most games are 1000 points minimum. I'm wondering if the Dwarf Starter army will get me there, and if not, how much more I would need to add (maybe just Blaine?).
At this point, I'm thinking of just pledging $51 for the Dwarf Starter Army, free shipping. I'm guessing you will still be able to download the 2nd Edition rulebook for free?
If not, I may pledge $100 and get the rulebooks, counters, Blaine, and Dwarf Start Army.
^^ Should probably go in the OP. That's all nominal of course, it depends how you rank them up and what spells and such you buy for them.
The softcover version of the rulebook, or at least everything in it, will be in free pdfs on the Mantic site. The hardcover with all the fluff will almost certainly go digital too, but you'll have to pay for that one on Mantic Digital or DrivethruRPG.
No, seriously, Deadleh, ScarletSquig, anyone else with a connection to Mantic: get someone to buy, beg, borrow or steal copiesofthesefinebooks (and maybe theseones too) for your concept artist and get him to rework that dorkosaur. It's maybe just a step or two above the drakons, from where I'm sitting.
Tell him to ignore those Parka Blog ads promising to teach the secrets of drawing Power Girl's boobs, too. He's had enough of that kind of instruction already, from the looks of things. The KoW art direction is increasingly looking like 'Warhammer as seen by Rob Liefeld', and it's drilling a hole through my brain.
(Oh, and scythes aren't just wide pointy axes, either. Ironically the weapon in the stretch goal silhouette shown earlier looks more like an axe than what the Mantic orcs are carrying...)
Vermis wrote: No, seriously, Deadleh, ScarletSquig, anyone else with a connection to Mantic: get someone to buy, beg, borrow or steal copiesofthesefinebooks (and maybe theseones too) for your concept artist and get him to rework that dorkosaur. It's maybe just a step or two above the drakons, from where I'm sitting.
Tell him to ignore those Parka Blog ads promising to teach the secrets of drawing Power Girl's boobs, too. He's had enough of that kind of instruction already, from the looks of things. The KoW art direction is increasingly looking like 'Warhammer as seen by Rob Liefeld', and it's drilling a hole through my brain.
(Oh, and scythes aren't just wide pointy axes, either. Ironically the weapon in the stretch goal silhouette shown earlier looks more like an axe than what the Mantic orcs are carrying...)
That would be Heath Foley, who does a lot of Mantic's concept art.
In response to my earlier comment, what I mean was the AlexHolker seemed to be stating that they would be another core troop within the Basilean faction that would work in place of MAA, rather than looking at historical alternatives.
Somehow, I'm predicting the answer will be sisterhood.
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angelofvengeance wrote: After having a skim through the KoW 1st ed rules, can anyone tell me what changes to expect in KoW 2nd ed rules please?
True line of sight is being replaced by abstract.
Unit commands are gone.
You can now charge normally, or any unit that charged you (including flanks and rear)
Game-wide rebalancing of points, and in some cases, stats, Also, possibly new units.
(Oh, and scythes aren't just wide pointy axes, either. Ironically the weapon in the stretch goal silhouette shown earlier looks more like an axe than what the Mantic orcs are carrying...)
I... what weapon are you talking about? None of them have a scythe in the text. If you mean the Lower Abyssal, the weapon he's got looks a lot like an asian style sickle, which to me suits the aesthetic. Plus there's a bunch of axe, sword and all sorts of options underneath, and I imagine at least some of those will make the sprue. The abyssal champion too, just his is more oversized.
I'd like to see the 'hero' type changed to 'hero (cavalry)' or something like that (whichever unit type is relevant), to put an end to the people who come onto the Mantic rules forum asking why their opponent's mounted hero doesn't get the -1 in combat for charging their spearmen.
Riquende wrote: I'd like to see the 'hero' type changed to 'hero (cavalry)' or something like that (whichever unit type is relevant), to put an end to the people who come onto the Mantic rules forum asking why their opponent's mounted hero doesn't get the -1 in combat for charging their spearmen.
GrimDork wrote:I dunno I think some of the regular KoW players hereabouts have reported playing fun games in the 500-600 point range, correct me if I'm wrong guys. I think if you're playing mass battles regiment-based combat game, a larger size is better of course, but KoW seems to run pretty well at various sizes.
I agree with your sentiments, but just to clarify what I'm going to say below, despite what Mantic says, if unless counting each miniature as more than one soldier, the units that Mantic calls a Reigment" (20 figs) is actually a "Troop" or "Platoon" (15-30 men) The entire army in a standard sized game is at the "Company" level (80-200 men or so). A Battalion is at least 300 figures and Regiment typically denotes 1000 men or more!
It's all fantasy of course, but just for clarity...
Mezmaron wrote:
I hear most games are 1000 points minimum. I'm wondering if the Dwarf Starter army will get me there, and if not, how much more I would need to add (maybe just Blaine?).
Thanks - Mez
I've asked this question myself. Some folks seem to have fun at the 650 point level. What I've gathered from their reports it seems that it's best to trend toward smaller units and also to house-rule-out certain uber-powerful combos.
For our group, we found that the game really becomes fun at the 1000 point level or above. At that point, the options for maneuvering and taking a variety of units really open up. My preferred range is 1500-2000. For smaller size battles, my preference is to take a ruleset that is designed with that size battle in mind. "Of Gods and Mortals" is a mythological Song of Blades variant from Osprey that actually works really well for Fantasy combat with "God" a couple of "Heroes" and a few units of "Mortals". I encourage folks not to tie themselves so tightly to one ruleset that they miss other opportunities. I play Song of Blades (warband size), Of Gods and Mortals (platoons level) and Kings of War (Company level and above). They are all aimed at different game "scopes" and I enjoy them all.
All this said, I think bigger battles are better, but KoW a fun enough game that you'll probably enjoy smaller battles as you build your army.
decker_cky wrote: Honestly, I think that resculpting the men-at-arms and goblins (include weapon options for both) would be a great investment in goodwill. Ideally, resculpt them and include a single sprue for free with the basic pledge level as a "money where your mouth is" option.
Redoing the goblins isn't a bad idea, but tooling the Men at Arms was already stupid the first time. Money spent redoing the Men at Arms is money not spent on another, more deserving kit.
I'm not sure I follow.
Because only rare deviants like me would ever want a fantasy human army that wasn't 100% historical.
Yeah, I'm not sure where the "just use historicals" thing comes from. Basileans look like nothing out of history. They look like D&D style fantasy soldiers.
Riquende wrote: I'd like to see the 'hero' type changed to 'hero (cavalry)' or something like that (whichever unit type is relevant), to put an end to the people who come onto the Mantic rules forum asking why their opponent's mounted hero doesn't get the -1 in combat for charging their spearmen.
It's a good thing that's what I said then
Oh is that confirmed? I know it's been raised on the Mantic forum a few times, hadn't seen Daedle post it though.
Mezmaron wrote:
I hear most games are 1000 points minimum. I'm wondering if the Dwarf Starter army will get me there, and if not, how much more I would need to add (maybe just Blaine?).
Thanks - Mez
GrimDork wrote:I dunno I think some of the regular KoW players hereabouts have reported playing fun games in the 500-600 point range, correct me if I'm wrong guys. I think if you're playing mass battles regiment-based combat game, a larger size is better of course, but KoW seems to run pretty well at various sizes.
For our group, we found that the game really becomes fun at the 1000 point level or above. At that point, the options for maneuvering and taking a variety of units really open up. My preferred range is 1500-2000.
KoW is fine for small battles (sub 750) but really shines when you're at 2k and above. 1000 is more of a learning game, and is fine to play, but after a game or two of that and you realize how simple and tactical the rules are, you will want to immediately start expanding.
Vermis wrote: No, seriously, Deadleh, ScarletSquig, anyone else with a connection to Mantic: get someone to buy, beg, borrow or steal copiesofthesefinebooks (and maybe theseones too) for your concept artist and get him to rework that dorkosaur. It's maybe just a step or two above the drakons, from where I'm sitting.
Tell him to ignore those Parka Blog ads promising to teach the secrets of drawing Power Girl's boobs, too. He's had enough of that kind of instruction already, from the looks of things. The KoW art direction is increasingly looking like 'Warhammer as seen by Rob Liefeld', and it's drilling a hole through my brain.
(Oh, and scythes aren't just wide pointy axes, either. Ironically the weapon in the stretch goal silhouette shown earlier looks more like an axe than what the Mantic orcs are carrying...)
I really like a lot of what Heath Foley has done for Mantic. He has a talent for devising iconic, bold designs that have made the Enforcers far more credible super-soldiers than GW's Space Marines, and made a success of the Forge Fathers rather than the comparatively absurd-looking Squats.
Unlike Liefeld, he also understands restraint and balance in design, rather than amping up every detail ad absurdum to be EXTREME!!!
I'm not saying all of Heath's designs are winners, but by and large most of them are in my book, and I believe Foley is behind all of Mantic's best sculpts.
All that said, lizards and their avian offshoots have a specific body type that needs to be referenced, even when they're being twisted to fantasy purposes, or else they end up looking silly. The Blaine dino seems to be based on a Velociraptor, and interestingly, in this case the perspective of the drawing makes it hard to tell if Heath is referencing one of the most important physical traits or not.
That being the legs. Humans have two long bones leading from the hip to the foot; birds and upright reptiles (dinosaurs) have 3, adding in the tarsometatarsus.
As I said, due to the perspective he chose, it's hard to tell exactly what Heath's doing with the legs. The recessive shading on the lower leg seems to indicate that Heath's dino has tarsometatarsi, but it could be clearer. I hope that it's fully apparent to whoever translates the 2-D concept into a 3-D sculpt.
If on the other hand his concept isn't meant to have tarsometatarsi, it needs 'em. Badly.
Tarsometatarsi. I never thought I'd get the chance to type that word so many times.
If you look at the comments the succubi concept art has already worried some people who think those are the poses that will appear rather than art to base the sculpts off
Riquende wrote: I'd like to see the 'hero' type changed to 'hero (cavalry)' or something like that (whichever unit type is relevant), to put an end to the people who come onto the Mantic rules forum asking why their opponent's mounted hero doesn't get the -1 in combat for charging their spearmen.
It's a good thing that's what I said then
Oh is that confirmed? I know it's been raised on the Mantic forum a few times, hadn't seen Daedle post it though.
Baragash and ScarletSquig are on the rules committee too :-)
The thing about the Blaine artwork, in my simple understanding of moulding and casting models, I think the arms will have to change or be multipart to get the hands at that angle!
About the Blaine art: Im really just annoyed about two things:
1) the angel at which the arms attach. A raptor doesnt have that kind of mobility in the shoulders, the arms would be much more in line with the body;
2) The teeth. Teeth dont work that way. <.<
Not actual Dinosaur. I known someone will say "but suspension of disbelief", but it's a trans dimensional alien traveller riding a fantasy dinosaur. Logic went out the window long ago
I would agree that Heath Foley is really a mixed bag. Some times he is good, some times he destroys a concept by adding something stupid, like the weapons and armour on the basileans (if we pretend that the bad sculpting and lousy manufacturing didn't happen). He might be good at drawing, but I am not so sure about his skills as a designer, Mantic could really use someone who functions as an art director.
sukura636 wrote: Not actual Dinosaur. I known someone will say "but suspension of disbelief", but it's a trans dimensional alien traveller riding a fantasy dinosaur. Logic went out the window long ago
Theropod anatomy is more alien than Blaine's beast. But the face sells it as a non-dino, so I guess it all comes down to how the sculptor interprets the art.
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jorny wrote: I would agree that Heath Foley is really a mixed bag. Some times he is good, some times he destroys a concept by adding something stupid, like the weapons and armour on the basileans (if we pretend that the bad sculpting and lousy manufacturing didn't happen).
The weapons and the armor are what make the Basileans, and are the only good parts of the Men-at-Arms sprue. Do you just have a problem with them because they aren't boring historically accurate?
I kind of like my derpy faced MAA guys, to be honest. My kids do too. I've been thinking of painting a few more up now that my Darkllands hydra guys are almost finished.
I actually wish they were a bit more fantastically embellished. I think that might help separate them from the typical historical looking guys.
I might have to scour ebay for a few more cheap sprues.
The weapons and the armor are what make the Basileans, and are the only good parts of the Men-at-Arms sprue. Do you just have a problem with them because they aren't boring historically accurate?
I have no problem with fantasy weapons and armour, I have a problem with bad fantasy weapons. The vizors on the helmets do not look very good. The "hole" on top of the shield is to big and ruins the otherwise nice wings. I also think that the sword with wing shaped crossguard is badly proportioned. The polearms are fine, and the banner top is quite nice. The lances for the mounted paladins just look stupid and just have too much crap added to them. One of the naginatas for the Chorse-riders also looks good as a concept, the one without the stupid circle below the blade.
Mezmaron wrote: What are the approximate point values for the Starter Armies?
(Also, same question for the Mega Starter Armies....)
I hear most games are 1000 points minimum. I'm wondering if the Dwarf Starter army will get me there, and if not, how much more I would need to add (maybe just Blaine?).
At this point, I'm thinking of just pledging $51 for the Dwarf Starter Army, free shipping. I'm guessing you will still be able to download the 2nd Edition rulebook for free?
If not, I may pledge $100 and get the rulebooks, counters, Blaine, and Dwarf Start Army.
Thanks - Mez
Dunno if this helps but based on the downloadable 1st edition rules and what's on their site, they have the following army sets for dwarves:
* 50 GBP, 72 figures, 975 points. Retails individually for 81 GB
* 100 GBP, 117 figures, 1535 points. Retails individually for 144.50 GBP
* 30GBP. 44 figures, 50 points. Retails individually for 53.50 GBP
* 100 GBP, 135 figures, 1500 points. Retails individually for 134 GBP
* 150 GBP, 166 figures, 2000 points. Retails individually for 203 GBP
Points may be off. If they are, they're low because I can't remember if I upgraded every unit of Ironwatch to riflemen or not. I tried to go based on what is pictured in the links.
Kickstarter mega looks to be about 1230 points not counting the Bombard (not showing in downloadable rules) or weapon options. Starter army on Kickstarter is about 475 points before weapon options
RobertsMinis wrote: Disappointed in the art for the Necromancer. I don't like it. Dwarf looks awesome though.
I can't believe people are still willing to back for Mantic products that are just artwork... some things turn out well, but from what I've seen the art is not a good indication of what will be good or bad (you could say this about other companies too, of course - like Privateer Press. But you don't have to pay in advance for theirs...).
RobertsMinis wrote: Disappointed in the art for the Necromancer. I don't like it. Dwarf looks awesome though.
I can't believe people are still willing to back for Mantic products that are just artwork... some things turn out well, but from what I've seen the art is not a good indication of what will be good or bad (you could say this about other companies too, of course - like Privateer Press. But you don't have to pay in advance for theirs...).
To be fair, you don't have to pay in advance for Mantic's stuff either...
Vermonter wrote:
I really like a lot of what Heath Foley has done for Mantic. He has a talent for devising iconic, bold designs that have made the Enforcers far more credible super-soldiers than GW's Space Marines, and made a success of the Forge Fathers rather than the comparatively absurd-looking Squats.
Unlike Liefeld, he also understands restraint and balance in design, rather than amping up every detail ad absurdum to be EXTREME!!!
king silly.
I don't believe that Foley designed the Enforcers or the Forge Fathers. I'm pretty sure it was Roberto Cirillo
I don't necessarily agree with your comment about restraint either. A lot of the concepts that Foley has done are over-designed in my opinion.
Also, Mantic still desperately needs an Art Director.
The Dwarf Wolf wrote: The "basileans" can easily be used as an oriental faction. Treat regular troopers as Ashigaru, use samurais for knights, and theme the elohi as kamis instead of angels...
Kingdoms of Men makes a more historically accurate Samurai army.
It's what I am using. Even if you want to throw in a bit of fantasy the ogre option in kom allows you to field oni or another mystical creature.
I don't believe that Foley designed the Enforcers or the Forge Fathers. I'm pretty sure it was Roberto Cirillo
I don't necessarily agree with your comment about restraint either. A lot of the concepts that Foley has done are over-designed in my opinion.
Also, Mantic still desperately needs an Art Director.
~Eric
Hey, Eric, nice catch. I think you're right about the Enforcers:
Regarding the Forge Fathers, it probably depends on which ones you're talking about, so the fault is mine for not being specific. I'm pretty sure the Dreadball FF and Deadzone FF are Heath's, though, and I like them.
Restraint . . . well, we can have an interminable debate about that one. I'd rather not, though, as I can see your point of view, depending on the example chosen. Still, comparing Heath to Liefeld is going way too far. Compared to Liefeld, everyone has restraint.
But yeah, for me the iconic Blaine image Heath created (for example), even with all the Riddick / Predator / Plo Koon etc. mish-mosh going on, actually works:
It probably shouldn't work - it's a prime candidate for Liefeldization - but it does. And given what many artists would make when trying to draw from all of those hallowed sci-fi references at once, that's impressive.
I won't stand here and defend Heath as faultless, though. He's a proud member of the "I hate legs on large creatures" society, for one. The Grogan sculptor did us all a favor when he threw out Heath's stubbier legs.
One more thing, Taarnak. Your opinions are reasonable; you don't need to use underhanded tactics to debate me, like ascribing my post to someone else entirely, for example, or chopping my sentences up into nonsensical fragments like "king silly."
Hah! I knew there was more than one reason I liked Blaine. I just couldn't place all of the reasons. There they are though, Riddick, Predator, and Plo Koon.
Here's a shot of my buddy's Old Glory trebuchets for his Kingdoms of Men KOW army.
Wow, those are huge! Appropriate for scale and very impressive. However, I think I'm glad I went with the more manageably sized -if less realistic- D&D trebuchet.
One more thing, Taarnak. Your opinions are reasonable; you don't need to use underhanded tactics to debate me, like ascribing my post to someone else entirely, for example, or chopping my sentences up into nonsensical fragments like "king silly."
Sorry. In my defense I am posting from my phone. I deleted the wrong quote header.
Also, in case you were being serious, that's the main reason I chopped down your post too. I only wanted to reply to one part and it's so much easier to avoid scrolling in the reply box on the phone... And I apologize because I did it again. Lol.
Anyway, I agree that the pic of Blaine you posted is an example of Foley doing it right, as far as design goes. If I remember when I get to a desktop, I'll try to dig up some that I don't like for you.
Riquende wrote: I'd like to see the 'hero' type changed to 'hero (cavalry)' or something like that (whichever unit type is relevant), to put an end to the people who come onto the Mantic rules forum asking why their opponent's mounted hero doesn't get the -1 in combat for charging their spearmen.
Riquende wrote: I'd like to see the 'hero' type changed to 'hero (cavalry)' or something like that (whichever unit type is relevant), to put an end to the people who come onto the Mantic rules forum asking why their opponent's mounted hero doesn't get the -1 in combat for charging their spearmen.
Because they're solo heroes.
Um, yes, I know? I've have had to explain it to a plethora of people over on the Mantic forum over the years.
.Mikes. wrote: If anyone didn't listen to the latest ep of Mantic Radio, Ronnie was on there talking a lot about KoW2, and something which jumped out at me was most of the large infantry, like ogres and elohie, will have the option to run them as single figure units away. I like this idea.
.Mikes. wrote: If anyone didn't listen to the latest ep of Mantic Radio, Ronnie was on there talking a lot about KoW2, and something which jumped out at me was most of the large infantry, like ogres and elohie, will have the option to run them as single figure units away. I like this idea.
They what?
This is the case already with a lot of Large Infantry. I very much like the idea of giving that option to more units, especially the Elohi.
I think the query is are they going to have that option, which they already do, or are they going to have that option taken away? The original quote isn't clear.
NTRabbit wrote: I think the query is are they going to have that option, which they already do, or are they going to have that option taken away? The original quote isn't clear.
I don't believe the Elohi have that option currently. Not sure about the Ogres.
Ronnie meant to say that the option will be removed for most units (some units like chariots may retain the single model option).
This is because of the ability to spam single models. We either put the points up to stop the spam lists, which unfortunately makes them unattractive as single options, or remove them. We've chosen to remove them, however we're making sure that there's an equivalent Hero option for each of them. If you want to take a single model, like a drakon or werewolf then you can take the hero option instead.
NTRabbit wrote: I think the query is are they going to have that option, which they already do, or are they going to have that option taken away? The original quote isn't clear.
I don't believe the Elohi have that option currently. Not sure about the Ogres.
Ogre Warriors and Shooters can under the current rules, units of 1, 3 or 6
Interesting, Daedleh. I hope this means more character models to be released... I wouldn't want my Werewolf "Alpha" to look like my ordinary werewolves.
Daedleh wrote: Ronnie meant to say that the option will be removed for most units (some units like chariots may retain the single model option).
This is because of the ability to spam single models. We either put the points up to stop the spam lists, which unfortunately makes them unattractive as single options, or remove them. We've chosen to remove them, however we're making sure that there's an equivalent Hero option for each of them. If you want to take a single model, like a drakon or werewolf then you can take the hero option instead.
Elf Army List (1600 points):
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Sylvin Kin Troop
Daedleh wrote: Ronnie meant to say that the option will be removed for most units (some units like chariots may retain the single model option).
This is because of the ability to spam single models. We either put the points up to stop the spam lists, which unfortunately makes them unattractive as single options, or remove them. We've chosen to remove them, however we're making sure that there's an equivalent Hero option for each of them. If you want to take a single model, like a drakon or werewolf then you can take the hero option instead.
Ronnie actually did say that, my typing skills let me down. Ad he also went into why, which Daedle just said. I like the idea, given that KoW is a game of units having lots of what equate to mini monsters running around didn't feel right.
Elf Army List (1600 points):
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Sylvin Kin Troop
I'm not a fan
Surely single models would fall under the same restrictions as Troops in the army selection process making this illegal?
Which reminds me that if single chariots etc stay, we need to make sure it covers that
Daedleh wrote: Ronnie meant to say that the option will be removed for most units (some units like chariots may retain the single model option).
This is because of the ability to spam single models. We either put the points up to stop the spam lists, which unfortunately makes them unattractive as single options, or remove them. We've chosen to remove them, however we're making sure that there's an equivalent Hero option for each of them. If you want to take a single model, like a drakon or werewolf then you can take the hero option instead.
I've got two single Ogres in my force. They're there because points, because Ogres have a very shallow pool/choice of troops to choose from anyway in their army, and an especially poor choice of options to use those last few points. Perhaps you could look into numerical limits, like WFB3 used to have (ie - 0-3 single Ogres) and ration them out by overall army force:
0-3 single Ogres (Drakons, Werewolves, Trolls, Elohi, etc) per thousand points in your army. Or however many points. 500, 750, 1250, whatever. Stops list spam and allows people to still retain a bit of flexibility and fun with a few single small-monsters crashing around without being gamebreaking.
Also, my (still unfinished, so not shown off yet) single ogres were pretty cool. A vintage GW Thrudd model and a Heresy Huge Boris. Worked well for a couple of kickarse ogres who could (kinda) fend for themselves without needing to be captains or army standards.
Baragash wrote:Surely single models would fall under the same restrictions as Troops in the army selection process making this illegal?
Which reminds me that if single chariots etc stay, we need to make sure it covers that
There aren't any restrictions on troops at the moment.
Azazelx wrote:I've got two single Ogres in my force. They're there because points, because Ogres have a very shallow pool/choice of troops to choose from anyway in their army, and an especially poor choice of options to use those last few points. Perhaps you could look into numerical limits, like WFB3 used to have (ie - 0-3 single Ogres) and ration them out by overall army force:
0-3 single Ogres (Drakons, Werewolves, Trolls, Elohi, etc) per thousand points in your army. Or however many points. 500, 750, 1250, whatever. Stops list spam and allows people to still retain a bit of flexibility and fun with a few single small-monsters crashing around without being gamebreaking.
Also, my (still unfinished, so not shown off yet) single ogres were pretty cool. A vintage GW Thrudd model and a Heresy Huge Boris. Worked well for a couple of kickarse ogres who could (kinda) fend for themselves without needing to be captains or army standards.
Ogres do need more options and I'm sure they'll get them. Restricting with the 0-3 just ensures that players will always just take 3 singles because why not? The small monsters can still go crashing around - they just take up a hero slot this time which does restrict them appropriately. Neither Basileans or Nature have single model options for their large infantry and they don't suffer for it.
I think you and I are playing very different types of KoW. We're not all playing the competition/tournament style game, and the Drakon list you quoted earlier isn't something I'd ever expect to see from the people I game with. As for "why not always take three?" I've got two, because that's what makes (thematic) sense for my army. But then, I have missile troops in my other forces, have standards and musicians and don't max out my artillery - like I said - playing differently to how your experience is.
As for Basileans and Nature not suffering for it. Fair enough, but they're a very different kettle of fish to the Ogres, where the core of the army is large infantry, and, yeah. - Very few troop options compared to Basileans or Nature forces - obviously Undead aren't hurting for options either.
I absolutely understand the need to remain "tournament friendly" (unlike other games!) as long as valid and fun options aren't removed for the sake of "tournament balance". Like I said, a simple "X number of Y per Z points" would cover that and stop spam lists.
Right now Ogres have a gak army list selection with bugger-all troop choices when compared to most other armies. Having a single Ogre (or two) crashing around for the 45 points gives the army a few more tactical options. If they take up a hero slot but remain the equivalent number of points as they are now, then that could work as well. Bumping the points cost and making them take a hero slot in an army with so few options is a lot more painful.
Not to mention 3 torsos and 6 heads for the entire range. But that one's not your fault.
And semi-related. How about a proper Werewolves Army list separate to Undead? Kind of like how Ogres are part of KoM but also their own thing. A full werewolf army with a decent variety of troops would look awesome.
The way to do it now is unfortunately boring, cheesy and spammy. So it might look good in terms of models, but it's not fun to play or face. (And Ogre profiles are way too different to proxy very well).
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Daedleh wrote: I'm an Ogre player. Believe me I know the shortcomings of the Ogre list and will seek to correct them.
One request for consideration on that. - Please don't entirely reply on throwing more goblins in to offer the other options. I know they're a GW-legacy thing (gnoblars) but goblins in an ogre army aren't fun and feel like too much of a cop-out. My one concession to "red goblins" (spit!) in my Ogre army is a regiment of "Red Goblin Scouts" that are modelled as riderless giant wolves. I figure that a pack of vicious wolves fit well with the ogres thematically as their pets.
Despite having limited interest in KoW, the prospect of Abyssals/demons is kind of intriguing as I actually have very few of those despite having lots of fantasy armies. Did they Abyssals have their KoW rules published already or are they completely WIP?
I'm just a bit gun-shy as Mantic and concept art don't always leave the party together. I'd feel much more confident about getting a force if we could see some renders of the Succubi, as those tend to translate reasonably well. Those with routes to Mantic HQ: Is there any chance of renders being shown before the end of the campaign or should I go for the books (which can be used with my WHFB collection if nothing else) and wait for the pledge manager?
Krinsath wrote: Despite having limited interest in KoW, the prospect of Abyssals/demons is kind of intriguing as I actually have very few of those despite having lots of fantasy armies. Did they Abyssals have their KoW rules published already or are they completely WIP?
I'm just a bit gun-shy as Mantic and concept art don't always leave the party together. I'd feel much more confident about getting a force if we could see some renders of the Succubi, as those tend to translate reasonably well. Those with routes to Mantic HQ: Is there any chance of renders being shown before the end of the campaign or should I go for the books (which can be used with my WHFB collection if nothing else) and wait for the pledge manager?
Put down a buck now and decide if you want any of the models as part of shipping wave 3 or 4 next October. You know it'll work that way.
here's my shipping wave prediction:
Wave 1: Jan-Feb 2015(?) - Models that are done now (existing army deals)
Wave 2: June-Aug 2015 (?) - 2nd ed Rulebooks (plus whatever bits)
Wave 3: Septobervember(?) - New HIPS stuff, new restic stuff, new resin stuff.
Wave 4: Dec 2015-Mar 2016 - The delayed stuff. Plus final extra-late, last-minute extra add-on PM.
You're probably right Az, though I wouldn't mind getting Blaine and the books if nothing else. I do have a half-dozen WHFB armies that I could slot into KoW that have yet to see a game...
Just as a counterpoint- I would totally run a list like that pure Drakon one if given an opportunity to.
I tend to prefer larger individual units (or small squads of big stuff) as opposed to mobs or hoards of smaller similar figures- would the ogres be a good fit for me, army- wise?
Ogres would be good for you, yes. They currently have units of 3 and 6 models, though they'll be getting a horde of 12 in the new edition.
You'd still be able to run a list full of drakons if you wanted to, just that they'd have to be taken in troops of 3 or regiments of 6 rather than singles.
Daedleh wrote: Ogres would be good for you, yes. They currently have units of 3 and 6 models, though they'll be getting a horde of 12 in the new edition.
You'd still be able to run a list full of drakons if you wanted to, just that they'd have to be taken in troops of 3 or regiments of 6 rather than singles.
That's great news. I have more ogres than any sane person should own. Being able to field them in hordes kind of validates having that many.
Off topic, but KoW related, I'm still a KoW n00b, so I started a thread in the Mantic Section of the forums asking for KoW advice anyone is willing to share. Looking for Kings of War strategy advice Please feel free to share any insights you have on KoW strategies, modelling, collecting, etc...
I'm pushing for two lists of artefacts - one common and one rare. Commons would be able to be taken as many times as you want while rares would be one per army. Still a limit of one per unit though.
So effectively, Banners/Musicians will actually be staying, just listed as "common magic artifacts" (and therefore allowing free reign to model how you wish)?
This doesn't seem to actually solve the issue with them, just rebranding. Hopefully I'm mistaken...
More that the old effects can be taken if you're dearly tied to having a +1/-1 nerve (probably with a points drop on the counts-as-standards) but they won't be unit command.
Wasn't the objective to remove banner/musician as everyone took them, they cancelled each other out and were therefore forgotten?
Making "magic artifacts" that do exactly the same thing and that are available to anyone doesn't solve the problem. Everyone will just take the artifacts now.
Daedleh wrote: Ronnie meant to say that the option will be removed for most units (some units like chariots may retain the single model option).
This is because of the ability to spam single models. We either put the points up to stop the spam lists, which unfortunately makes them unattractive as single options, or remove them. We've chosen to remove them, however we're making sure that there's an equivalent Hero option for each of them. If you want to take a single model, like a drakon or werewolf then you can take the hero option instead.
That is awful. Good-bye single-troll speedbumps, which was the only reason to take them. Hopefully you guys have also a) made 3+ troll units VASTLY cheaper, b) made 3+ troll units have FAR more nerve, and c) made regeneration better for 3+ troll units.
Ugh, I know that's to prevent Drakon/Werewolf spam, but wouldn't the easiest thing to do would be to remove the single drakon/single werewolf combo? But even then, that's a poor compromise, as single large monsters are perfect to take for smaller 1000 or less army lists.
No, people didn't take them meaning that units didn't have command models, or if you wanted to give your units command models then you had to explain to your opponent that they weren't wysiwyg.
Some people took *some* musicians, but people very very very very rarely took standards. That's probably not going to change much, but the option for those effects will still be there, even if it's just one per army.
Daedleh wrote: Ronnie meant to say that the option will be removed for most units (some units like chariots may retain the single model option).
This is because of the ability to spam single models. We either put the points up to stop the spam lists, which unfortunately makes them unattractive as single options, or remove them. We've chosen to remove them, however we're making sure that there's an equivalent Hero option for each of them. If you want to take a single model, like a drakon or werewolf then you can take the hero option instead.
That is awful. Good-bye single-troll speedbumps, which was the only reason to take them. Hopefully you guys have also a) made 3+ troll units VASTLY cheaper, b) made 3+ troll units have FAR more nerve, and c) made regeneration better for 3+ troll units.
Ugh, I know that's to prevent Drakon/Werewolf spam, but wouldn't the easiest thing to do would be to remove the single drakon/single werewolf combo? But even then, that's a poor compromise, as single large monsters are perfect to take for smaller 1000 or less army lists.
Incredibly disappointed.
On come on, of course we're going to sort the points out for 3+ troll units. Have you missed the message that one of the main points for doing 2nd ed was to fix points values? Also single drakon/single werewolf spam might be the most broken lists but single troll and single ogre spam would be just as bad.
Daedleh wrote: Restricting with the 0-3 just ensures that players will always just take 3 singles because why not? The small monsters can still go crashing around - they just take up a hero slot this time which does restrict them appropriately. Neither Basileans or Nature have single model options for their large infantry and they don't suffer for it.
This is a 100% acceptable solution. If the single monsters retain the same role as they do now but merely take up a Hero slot, then everything is perfect. Both my Orc and my Goblin army use 3 individual trolls specifically as speedbumps and flank guards; making them take a Hero slot (but for roughly the same points) should not affect army composition too greatly.
On come on, of course we're going to sort the points out for 3+ troll units. Have you missed the message that one of the main points for doing 2nd ed was to fix points values? Also single drakon/single werewolf spam might be the most broken lists but single troll and single ogre spam would be just as bad.
One of the earliest ideas I heard for fixing single monsters was giving them the negatives of Individual without the benefits - as in, you can overrun them when they are defeated (but still have flanks/rears/etc).
adamsouza wrote: Just in concept, anything that is tough enough to fight masses of infantry on it's own is probably more "heroic" than "infantry"
One would also assume that, as with any mass-battles game, we are operating on a 10:1 or 20:1 ratio (so the "regiment" of 20 guys is 200-400 dudes), so a single Ogre would be a platoon of 10-20 ogres. There's as much reason for a single big infantry to exist as there are for 5-man troops (and, uh, 3-man troops for Wights, but I'm assuming that's changing to match the numbering standards, or they are becoming Large Infantry)
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Daedleh wrote: Also where on earth were you getting troll speed bumps from? You realise that units have 2 pivots and can just go around your trolls right?
I'm not sure what you mean. Screen your Morax with a troll, bait the enemy to charge the troll and kill it. Morax roll in with +1 CS or +1 Melee magic item and proceed to annihilate any unit in the game with only having sacrificed a 45 point troll.
You can premeasure so you keep the Morax outside of charge range but the troll within. Either the enemy charges the troll, or waits, and the troll charges and puts damage on the enemy and they'll re-engage the following turn, after which the Morax are charging in anyway.
Or they can just run around your troll with the 2 pivots? A troll isn't wide enough to stop a charge to the Morax and you don't have to charge the nearest target. If you want to screen your morax then use an ax or sniff troop which are wide enough to protect it.
Daedleh wrote: Or they can just run around your troll with the 2 pivots? A troll isn't wide enough to stop a charge to the Morax and you don't have to charge the nearest target. If you want to screen your morax then use an ax or sniff troop which are wide enough to protect it.
Not if there's not enough room to maneouver? I play using terrain and more than the aforementioned two units. I can see your described situation occurring if my opponent had one unit and I had the troll and Morax and we were playing on an open field, sure.
Daedleh wrote: Or they can just run around your troll with the 2 pivots? A troll isn't wide enough to stop a charge to the Morax and you don't have to charge the nearest target. If you want to screen your morax then use an ax or sniff troop which are wide enough to protect it.
Your edit added more, so more reply:
I do use sniffs, but deploy them 12 inches in to distribute shooting and then CS damage amongst as many enemy units as I can to push the ever important bull curve Nerve check in my favor. Then I also deploy my main lines two or three units deep, staggered.
The main, huge benefit for a troll screen is that you distribute your screen's width so that no enemy unit can fit between the trolls / intervening terrain, so they will have to charge or be charged by the trolls. The most wonderful part is that if the troll survives, the follow on unit they were screening can also fit into melee against the target unit.
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Daedleh wrote: No way! Using terrain and multiple units!
I still don't see anything that a single troll does that a troop of trolls, sniffs or axes wouldn't.
The Dwarf Wolf wrote: The "basileans" can easily be used as an oriental faction. Treat regular troopers as Ashigaru, use samurais for knights, and theme the elohi as kamis instead of angels...
Kingdoms of Men makes a more historically accurate Samurai army.
It's what I am using. Even if you want to throw in a bit of fantasy the ogre option in kom allows you to field oni or another mystical creature.
It would be kind of out there, but if you can find a Kitsune model or so, you can have that as your healer or caster. I know the people who make Bushido has a model or so.
I give up. You are obviously playing a very different game to me, and you're obviously right - the sky is falling down because you can't take a single troll (which would go up to at least 60-70 points in the new edition if it were in).
Daedleh wrote: I give up. You are obviously playing a very different game to me, and you're obviously right - the sky is falling down because you can't take a single troll (which would go up to at least 60-70 points in the new edition if it were in).
If you say so. I can't find anywhere where a player can slide a 100mm wide unit sideways to bypass a troll screen that is set 90mm apart to complete a charge. That whole charging requirement of "there is enough space for your unit to physically move into contact with the target" I think would make that impossible.
I appreciate what you guys are doing and some of the the changes sound great (charging cavalry, auto-spin after flank/rear), and I'm fine with the removal of command options, but don't make changes for the sake of making changes and wind up producing Warhammer 8th.
Lots of restic will limit this one to the 'core groups' and probably keep it in that $400K to $500K range.
Still very successful though!
And there's very little new for people who backed the previous KoWKS on the whole. Most of the existing units can likely be had for fairly reasonable costs if you poke around a bit, which does take some of the shine off the offering.
With respect, judgedoug, the spamming of single models is an accepted issue with the current rules, and this is one of the proposed (and also supported) solutions to it. It's not change for the sake of change, but rather trying to find the simplest solution to a problem.
Lots of restic will limit this one to the 'core groups' and probably keep it in that $400K to $500K range.
Still very successful though!
And there's very little new for people who backed the previous KoWKS on the whole. Most of the existing units can likely be had for fairly reasonable costs if you poke around a bit, which does take some of the shine off the offering.
This. I'm at $50 because I already own:
Dwarf Army (painted) - Mantic and Avatars of War
Orc Army (painted) - Mantic, Mierce, and a bit of Gamezone
Goblin Army (painted) - Mantic, Red Box Games, Mierce, Chronopia, and some GW Basilean Army (painted) - Mantic, Confrontation, CMON
KoM Army (painted) - Vendel/SMM Greeks, Reaper, Mierce
KoM Army (painted) - Warlord Pike & Shotte
Elf Army (unpainted) - Mantic, Ultraforge, Architects of War, Avatars of War
"Orc"/Chaos Army (unpainted) - Red Box Games Helsvakt, Mierce
"Dark Elf"/Cult of Set (unpainted) - Gamezone and Mierce
The only thing that really interests me are the abyssals and I'd like to see more concepts (which hopefully aren't the god-awful stumpy leg Molochs)
Note that I spent over 500 bucks on KoW KS1.
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sukura636 wrote: With respect, judgedoug, the spamming of single models is an accepted issue with the current rules, and this is one of the proposed (and also supported) solutions to it. It's not change for the sake of change, but rather trying to find the simplest solution to a problem.
Again, I've already recognized that. My plea is that rules that need to be fixed are fixed (in this respect, spamming Drakons and Werewolves). Invalidating players' painted and based armies for the hell of it (my three-troll screens, Azazelx's two Ogre fillers, etc, countless other armies) reminds me suspiciously like another company. With that being said, and as I have already stated, making individual monsters part of the Heroes/Monsters selection is probably fine (or hell even the Warmachine selection for poor Orcs who have none).
As I understand it, it's that new heroes (like WFB 'hero' level) will be taking their place. So, like Werewolf Alpha, or something. More attacks, but more limited as to how many you can take.
lucasbuffalo wrote: I'm really surprised this one isn't sky-rocketing in backers. It's like $1 per model and they look pretty darn nice. Am I missing something?
Has absolutely nothing to do with restic being the material, and everything to do with people having an army already so only needing a book - the average pledge tells that story plain enough - and it being very close to Xmas. That Mantic only gave 1 weeks notice instead of a big lead up campaign for a month is probably contributing as well.
lucasbuffalo wrote: I'm really surprised this one isn't sky-rocketing in backers. It's like $1 per model and they look pretty darn nice. Am I missing something?
Has absolutely nothing to do with restic being the material, and everything to do with people having an army already so only needing a book - the average pledge tells that story plain enough - and it being very close to Xmas. That Mantic only gave 1 weeks notice instead of a big lead up campaign for a month is probably contributing as well.
Yeah,
I'm sad I missed the first time around. Glad to be on this train
Daedleh wrote: Ronnie meant to say that the option will be removed for most units (some units like chariots may retain the single model option).
This is because of the ability to spam single models. We either put the points up to stop the spam lists, which unfortunately makes them unattractive as single options, or remove them. We've chosen to remove them, however we're making sure that there's an equivalent Hero option for each of them. If you want to take a single model, like a drakon or werewolf then you can take the hero option instead.
Not a fan of this. Single figure units are a great way to make up extra points and it can be a nice way to paint an interesting model and put it in your army without commiting to an entire unit. Rather than getting rid of them, why not just limit each player to taking no more than one of each available type of single-model infantry.
lucasbuffalo wrote: I'm really surprised this one isn't sky-rocketing in backers. It's like $1 per model and they look pretty darn nice. Am I missing something?
Has absolutely nothing to do with restic being the material, and everything to do with people having an army already so only needing a book - the average pledge tells that story plain enough - and it being very close to Xmas. That Mantic only gave 1 weeks notice instead of a big lead up campaign for a month is probably contributing as well.
Sorry, but you're wrong. For me, it has everything to do with the materiel.
If It was all hard plastic, I'd be in for at least an Abbysal Dwarf Starter army now. A pledge with alot of Restic in it drops to the bottom of my interest list. Many members of my club feel the same way about Restic and similar spin-cast products. It's a pain in the but to work with, products using it don't have the options of plastic kits and yet it usually costs more than Plastic or PVC. Even Finecast and Bones are easier to work with than spincast plastic.
Though I like many of the sculpts, Deadzone (and some WM Warjacks) killed my interest in this material. Mantic will see alot less of my $ as long as Restic rules the roost.
I think restic is on the way out, but Mantic will round out the holes in the model range before they start converting existing stuff into better materials.
Kinda like GW isn't making any new Finecast releases, but still sells the existing stuff, because, well, it's better than not having a model at all.
primalexile wrote: Do we know what armies are primarily restic? I am in for 2 armies one being abyssal (we know they are hard plastic). I am not set on a second one yet.
Army materials are in the spoiler at the bottom of the OP
primalexile wrote: Do we know what armies are primarily restic? I am in for 2 armies one being abyssal (we know they are hard plastic). I am not set on a second one yet.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: For those of you new to KOW/ Mantics Fantasy Line here is a list of what materials the units in the mega armies (and thus the starter armies, which have the same units) are made from.
Key:
HIPS =Hard Impact Plastic Sprues
RP =Resin Plastic (sometimes referred to as restic)
HYB =Hybrid metal and HIPS (resin plastic and metal also occur but not in any of the army deal units so far).
M =Metal.
So add-on wednesday is here. Nothing exiting, some dice and MDF movement trays from warbases. I really dont like these mdf movement trays, the edges are just way to thick. I had hoped that plastic movement trays would be a stretch goal. And it seems to me that if you are a die hard KOW player you would just multibase on scenic bases and not use movement trays at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and there is a paint set with TAP warpaints, which even if the colours are basic seem to be a pretty good deal.
Not a fan of this. Single figure units are a great way to make up extra points and it can be a nice way to paint an interesting model and put it in your army without commiting to an entire unit. Rather than getting rid of them, why not just limit each player to taking no more than one of each available type of single-model infantry.
Well, from what's being said your interesting model will now become a minor hero instead, so is still very much usable.
I'm a huge fan of warbases so I'm glad to see them getting a bit of exposure here, though I wouldn't personally use movement trays (die hard multibaser here). The edges look a bit think, but those won't be the final design so with enough noise being thrown their way they might make something a little slimmer.
Warbases do some excellent multi bases with slots for the mantic base tabs to fit into, I've got a fair few for my undead and they work really well. Bit odd they've gone with the tray option instead for the add ons.
The campaign whilst interesting is a bit of a momentum killer imho. Plus the characters are exactly the same as the ds ones ( confirmed in the comments) I'd hoped for some resin figures not bg plastic.
Is it just me, or do those mdf movement trays seem pricey to buy in the volume needed for 2000pt armies?
It occurs to me that it would end up being $20-30 worth of them for each mega-army bundle as they currently stand, and with those being half the size or a "full" game at the tournament level, it really adds up.
Meanwhile, i'd love to buy enough to swap in and out for the wife and I, but with troops being split between 20 AND 25mm bases, that means a lot more movement trays depending on the factions involved.
So, as a general rule, Undead/Human/Goblin-esque models are on 20mm bases for mass infantry, and Orcs go on 25mm?
Which of these precisely are the cavalry trays, in that case?
In other news, they released the $1 pledge for add-ons only, meaning if you want Blaine on the dinosaur you can just pledge for that or just one of the armies that are good vlaue.
There's also a backer goal for passing the first one.
It’s a double-update for you today since a) we’re close to breaking the initial number of backers that the original Kings of War campaign generated, and b) it’s Add-on Wednesday!
So let’s tackle that backer number first shall we?
BONUS 1569 Backers - Kickstarter Exclusive "Map of Mantica" and Poster
1568 people backed the project making the original Kings of War campaign in 2012 a roaring success. In just 5 days we’ve nearly matched that, so it’s only right we celebrate!
One of the great goals in the original campaign was a lithoprint of the Mantic Map.
In an act of nostalgia, when we break the 1568 mark, we will enhance the Kings of War Map of Mantica to a whole new level of detail. We will then print a limited Kickstarter-only commemorative run of this brand new Map of Mantica and add it free in every pledge of Living Legend ($50) and up.
The reverse side of the map will be a poster featuring the new Kings of War 2nd Edition artwork.
We think this great looking piece of art will look great up on the wall, and really celebrates this milestone with something very fitting.
Add-on Wednesday
Welcome to the first Add-on Wednesday!
For those of you who don’t know, every Wednesday during a Kickstarter we release a crop of great value extras we think you might want to add on to your pledge. It might be gameplay aids or some hobby bits and pieces – these are things that don’t need funding but can get you extra value from the campaign.
And if there’s nothing that takes your fancy, well there’s always next time.
So here's what we have got on offer today…
NEW! Army Dice - $10 for 10 custom engraved Army Dice
We’ve got 9 different sets of dice with specially engraved army logos on the “6”
That’s right, there’s a set each for Abyssal Dwarfs, Basilea, Dwarfs, Elves, Forces of the Abyss, Goblins, Ogres, Orcs and Undead. Let us know your preference on colours in the comments!
NEW! Battle Dice - $5 for 50 Dice
For Kings of War, you need a lot of six-sided dice – whole handfuls of them! This add-on is there just to get you lots of plain simple white dice, for a great value-for-money price. Can’t argue with that, can ya?
NEW! Kings of War Army Painter Paint Set - $25
All of the classic colours (and a brush!) to get you started painting your Starter Armies.
NEW! Movement Trays
Ah yes, movement trays. Our friends over at Warbases have got a fantastic range of MDF movement trays for your armies.
As every army has a different mix of miniatures with 20mm, 25mm, 40mm and even 50mm based miniatures - which can be configured in different ways - we've simplified how you choose your movement trays.
Below are 3 easy bundles so you can get the trays you want for your armies:
For example, if I have an Undead army, I might choose:
- 2 Horde Trays for the 40 Skeletons and 40 Zombies.
- 2 Regiment Trays for the 20 Ghouls and 20 Revenants.
- 2 Troop Trays for the 10 Wraiths and 3 Werewolves.
Alternatively, I might decide to use the two spare Troops Trays with the 20 Ghouls, giving me a second Regiment tray to split the Skeletons and run them as units of 20. Total flexibility!
To clarify the descriptions:
- Troops - 10 Infantry, 5 Cavalry or 3 Large Infantry
- Regiments - 20 Infantry, 10 Cavalry or 6 Large Infantry
- Hordes - 40 Infantry, 20 Cavalry or 12 Large Infantry
For a list of base sizes for each of the units available so far, click here.
PLEASE REMEMBER!
You don't need to make your choices until after the Kickstarter has finished - if you are unsure on what trays you need for your army, don't panic. You can always add them on later and we'll be happy to help you work out what you need.
Pledging and selecting Optional Add-ons
To get an Optional Add-on, click “Manage my Pledge” in the top right corner of the Kickstarter page and input the total value of everything you want. For example, if you’re at God of War ($150) and want an Abyssal Starter Army ($50), you would enter $200 as your total pledge.
When the campaign has finished, we will send you access to an automated Pledge Manager. On here you will input your choices and let us know what you would like for your pledge.
And finally...
We’ve introduced the new $1 Adventurer pledge level.
This pledge level is to make a clearer step-on for people who only just want the add-ons, whether that’s the exclusive Blaine on Gramakh or just an army.
Please help us spread the word and we'll be back very shortly with a new stretch goal...
Not a fan of this. Single figure units are a great way to make up extra points and it can be a nice way to paint an interesting model and put it in your army without commiting to an entire unit. Rather than getting rid of them, why not just limit each player to taking no more than one of each available type of single-model infantry.
Well, from what's being said your interesting model will now become a minor hero instead, so is still very much usable.
That really doesn't help anything, because then you're losing another hero or warmachine. Not a great trade-off.
Definitely not a deal breaker as far as my involvement in the game, but there are better ways to handle single-mini-infantry spam.
and update 2: and to be frank I'm disappointed in all of us Dungeon Saga backers, we clearly failed to beat up that big boss properly, so Boo, I say, Boo, we suck
Update #11 Nov 19 2014
Wrath of the Abyss
And bang - we've done it!
That's now the Undead Necromancer and the Dwarf Warsmith funded!
These metal miniatures with variant components are now included in their respective Mega-Starter Armies. They are also now available to add-on to your pledge for $8 each.
So, what's next?
Back in the days in the build up to the campaign, Ronnie spoke about a Global Campaign that had world-altering consequences.
We’ve been chatting about this in the comments and you said, “Yep, we’d like that!” – so that’s what we’ve gone and done…
NEW! BONUS: $190,000 Kings of War Worldwide Campaign
Our initial funding goal means a brand new rulebook for Kings of War. In it you be able to delve into the history of the world, and in turn many of its races, building a fantasy universe in which to play your games. You’ll have the second edition of the rules, streamlined and updated and new, upgraded army lists for every force, and you’ll get new art and photography to bring it all to life.
As you know, Kings of War is the project led by the gaming community, and we want to keep it that way. We were also asked to let the community feedback shape the world, preferably through the games they play. That’s what the Wrath of the Abyss campaign is about…
The Necromancer Lord Mortibris has ascended using the wisdom of Valandor, torn from the pages of his own Tome. The terrible power unleased has sundered the very fabric of the world, creating a new outlet for the powers of the Abyss, spewing out the creatures of darkness to besmirch the world above. The good peoples of the world must unite in the face of this new threat, or face extinction.
With a working title of “Wrath of the Abyss” this book is a supplementary campaign for Kings of War. Whereas the mighty 2nd Edition Rulebook contains all your rules, army lists, hobby and history, Wrath of the Abyss focuses in on a particular storyline: a tale where your games will ultimately impact on the fantasy world we all fight in.
A story for the ages
Although weakened by the bravery of 4 heroes, a saga that denied him the cataclysmic ‘Book of Truth’, the Necromancer Mortibris has still managed to raise the great Undead Demon Lord Ba’al from his eternal rest and along with him demonic hordes and terrifying legions of the Undead. With the celestial Valandor returned, great armies of Men, Dwarfs and Elves rise to do battle and fight back against this world changing evil. Which side will you pick?
Fight incredible battles and interact with a global community
Whether at home, at your local gaming club or in the store of one of the thousands of gaming stores, no matter where you are in the world you can log the results of your battles in an online system, where the outcome affects the future of Mantica. Will cities fall? Will nations burn? Only your actions, and those of your fellow warriors, will decide.
Stretch Goal:
If we break this stretch goal, we will be able to write and produce Wrath of the Abyss: A Kings of War Supplementary Campaign Book and create a digital platform for logging your results. The outcome of this global campaign will have an irrevocable effect on the Kings of War universe.
To celebrate hitting this stretch goal, we will include a digital version of the book free in every pledge of Living Legend ($50) and up.
You can also add on a printed copy of the supplement for $10.
As central characters in the main plot of Wrath of the Abyss - and important characters from the Dungeon Saga Kickstarter - we’ve also made the Undead Demon Lord Ba’al and the demi-god celestian Valandor available in this campaign character pack, introducing them to Kings of War for the first time. You can pledge for these by adding on $20 to your pledge.
Ba’el
Cast to the deepest pit of the Abyss, his soul trapped and bound in the very Tome of Valandor itself, Ba’el has now returned to take his revenge. Half mad with rage and spite, his physical frame racked by the changes wrought upon it by the weird powers of the Abyss, Ba’el has only one focus – the destruction of his ‘brother’ Valandor, and his ascension to true Godhood.
Valandor
A legendary hero from the time before the Great Flood, Valandor’s true nature was revealed when he returned to battle the creatures of the Abyss once again. Now he faces a terrible choice – destroy one half of his immortal being, or watch the world of mortals burn to ashes.
This new book will focus on the battle between the Undead, Forces of the Abyss, Elves, Dwarfs and Basileans – and these armies will be getting reinforcements next...
But don’t despair if you don’t play one of these armies – with enough funding Orcs, Ogres, Abyssal Dwarfs and Goblins will get their turn in the limelight too
Let's get to it!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I hope people notice that they are referring to Ba'el and Valandor as Plastic.....
Daedleh wrote: Ogres would be good for you, yes. They currently have units of 3 and 6 models, though they'll be getting a horde of 12 in the new edition.
Daedleh wrote: No way! Using terrain and multiple units!
I still don't see anything that a single troll does that a troop of trolls, sniffs or axes wouldn't.
Cheaper point costs, looks cooler, personal choice, etc.
Please don't fall into the trap (that is incredibly common with videogame designers) of "you're doing it wrong - you're having fun the wrong way - not in the way I intended!"
Think the online, worldwide campaign thing is a very good idea!
Used to absolutely love these when GW used to do them decently, likes of Eye of Terror and the like, and if its implemented well then it can be really good fun.
In the days of internet communities there will also be that much more interaction between the players taking part in it.
Random question. Has anyone bought the Perry Miniatures Foot Knights to use instead of the Men at Arms? I see they are actually released but have not heard much about them. I was going to pull the trigger on 40 Swords of Manann but now I am considering the PM Foot Knights.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Is it just me, or do those mdf movement trays seem pricey to buy in the volume needed for 2000pt armies?
I just get the HIPS ones Renedra make from Firestorm. Cheap and work perfectly with the 20mm-based figures. Sure, they don't cover everything, but it works for a lot of stuff, and they're cheap enough that I just bought a few packs and now have a huge supply.
Well, from what's being said your interesting model will now become a minor hero instead, so is still very much usable.
That really doesn't help anything, because then you're losing another hero or warmachine. Not a great trade-off.
Definitely not a deal breaker as far as my involvement in the game, but there are better ways to handle single-mini-infantry spam.
Agreed. I'm not happy about a new version of "The Vision" coming along and invalidating existing units. I completely understand and agree with getting rid of single-model-spam-lists but removing the flexibility of even "0-3 per 1000pts" with the argument of "why wouldn't you take three?" isn't really a counter-argument, especially since "0-3" (or 0-2, or whatever) will obviously render spam-lists impossible.
primalexile wrote: Random question. Has anyone bought the Perry Miniatures Foot Knights to use instead of the Men at Arms? I see they are actually released but have not heard much about them. I was going to pull the trigger on 40 Swords of Manann but now I am considering the PM Foot Knights.
I haven't got the foot knights yet, but I have the mounted ones. Beautiful models. Can't recommend them highly enough.
primalexile wrote: Random question. Has anyone bought the Perry Miniatures Foot Knights to use instead of the Men at Arms? I see they are actually released but have not heard much about them. I was going to pull the trigger on 40 Swords of Manann but now I am considering the PM Foot Knights.
I've not purchased them, but I've been following every Perry release and reading the reviews. They're all really nice kits. Mantic has done a few nice plastic kits, but nothing even close to Perry.
Depending on how you want your forces to look, The Perry plastic "Mercenaries" or "War of the Roses Infantry" boxes offer less armored medieval infantry options that are just as high quality. Or you can buy a combination of boxes and mix and match pieces to customize your own force.
That really doesn't help anything, because then you're losing another hero or warmachine. Not a great trade-off.
Another bemoaned 'tactic' was a swarm of mounted standard bearers rushing off to hunt warmachines; so this solution actually addresses two problems instead of one! Are you really using all your hero slots every game? I can't say I've ever approached even half of the heroes I have room for. I can't accept it's a trade-off; it's just a new way of using units that were previously being abused. Hopefully they get do get a 'hero' profile with a few more attacks etc to account for a slight points bump.
Your 0-3 solution doesn't work for me as it's unlike anything else in the 'FO' rules. The proposed solution fits far better, achieves the aim of limiting spam armies, and has no real downsides that I can see, unless for some reason you were spamming heroes (like the aforementioned flag-waving cannon-hunters)
Also remember that (unless it's been said that it's changing, which is possible), a regular unit allows you to take one hero AND one warmachine, not one or the other.
primalexile wrote: Random question. Has anyone bought the Perry Miniatures Foot Knights to use instead of the Men at Arms? I see they are actually released but have not heard much about them. I was going to pull the trigger on 40 Swords of Manann but now I am considering the PM Foot Knights.
They're absolutely fantastic miniatures, and compliment the existing metal miniatures in that range very well.
You know you have a problem when you looking at these and thinking "I know I have thousands of dice, but a hundred for ten dollars sounds like a good deal"
Yeah that does make that into a better deal. I think I've still got a dice cube or two from my 40k days, but for anyone who doesn't already have a bucketful of dice, the plain dice are a good add-on.
Yeah that dice deal seems legit, I currently own barely any dice due to not actually playing KoW yet, any any large scale games for that matter, so $10-$15 for all the dice
I'll ever need is pretty temping. Those faction dice look nice as well but $10 for 10 could get expensive really quick, although they could be fun as "Special Dice" for your
hero units.
This artworks very interesting
Anyone got any info on this? Its clearly the undead faction and does kinda fit in with the Revenant Cavalry/Soul Reavers weapon set-up, but I'd assume it one of the newly created
units rather than a replacement kit, possibly some sort of foot dark/death knights unit?
primalexile wrote: Random question. Has anyone bought the Perry Miniatures Foot Knights to use instead of the Men at Arms? I see they are actually released but have not heard much about them. I was going to pull the trigger on 40 Swords of Manann but now I am considering the PM Foot Knights.
They're absolutely fantastic miniatures, and compliment the existing metal miniatures in that range very well.
Fabulous review! If you don't mind me dragging one of the images from there over here. Dear mantic. This…
...is how you make a proper plastic kit! If the Men at arms had been 75% as good as this and had 50% as many options, they would have become the new standard for plastic fantasy human warriors. As opposed to how it turned out….
Wait... wut? 30 base attacks? I don't even... wow. I am guessing that doesn't work out to be horribly awkward, based on the fact people play the game pretty happily it seems, but I am having trouble imagining how it works.
1) Declare your attacks
2) Grab King-Sized Bucket o'Dice (tm)
3) Pour ENTIRE contents of King-Sized Bucket o'Dice (tm) over table and floor
4) Watch opponent cry
- 4.a) Be a Smug git or a Nice guy to your opponent (chose smug)
5) Spend the next hour picking up said dice
After that you just rinse and repeat for 6 rounds.
Yeah as Alex said, pissed off dwarves on pissed off badgers have a huge amounts of attacks, but I don't think it gets any more than that. And given their cost you're not goingt o be fielding many of those units in a single game.
However, just having them on the field and casually letting slip to your opponent just how many dice they roll is fun to watch.
There are 2 or 3 infantry hordes that roll 40 basic attacks (to represent two hand weapons), but I'm not aware of anything higher than that currently. Those units also tend t be expensive and have a low defence, so they are prime targets for being shot at (and hard to screen if you have a full horde of them!)
So in summary... it balances out. I think having 20 dice of any particular faction would be enough. When I'm playing KoW and have to roll silly numbers I do it in blocks of 20 anyway, otherwise the dice are likely to start knocking models over, or flying off the table etc.
primalexile wrote: Random question. Has anyone bought the Perry Miniatures Foot Knights to use instead of the Men at Arms? I see they are actually released but have not heard much about them. I was going to pull the trigger on 40 Swords of Manann but now I am considering the PM Foot Knights.
They're absolutely fantastic miniatures, and compliment the existing metal miniatures in that range very well.
Fabulous review! If you don't mind me dragging one of the images from there over here. Dear mantic. This…
...is how you make a proper plastic kit! If the Men at arms had been 75% as good as this and had 50% as many options, they would have become the new standard for plastic fantasy human warriors. As opposed to how it turned out….
Why would they become the standard over the men at arms kit which is 33% better with twice the options? Yes they would be fantasy but they would be just as likely to not fit into the aesthetic of a random army as the historics.
Why would they become the standard over the men at arms kit which is 33% better with twice the options? Yes they would be fantasy but they would be just as likely to not fit into the aesthetic of a random army as the historics.
Because Perry minis are not fantasy minis. They don't look like fantasy minis for a variety of reasons. They look dinky next to almost any plastic fantasy miniature. Their weapons lack that je ne sais quoi that makes fantasy weapons exciting; plus they are dinky. Their poses are boring; fantasy miniatures should ideally look ready to fight mythical beasts, but Perry minis are better posed for their more historically-accurate battle with dysentery.
Now, I haven't bought any of their most recent kits since the WOTR infantry let me down hard, so it's possible this new kit fixes all of those issues. If so, please let me know.
People impressed by needing to roll 30 dice clearly have a different gaming background.
My wife plays 40k Orks. I think my house is made of dice at this point. :-p
So to current players, I have a quick question about movement bases as a whole...
I am obviously over-thinking this and am trying to buy multiples of every movement base size I could ever need, etc... I won't be multi-basing as I might well want to try WFB down the road.
So in reality, are movement bases much benefit for small units?
Yes, I can imagine needing them to easily shift 10,20,40 guy units... but if I end up playing Ogres, presumably it is easy enough to move the leader model and then everyone else around him (everyone else being 2-5 more guys).
That change alone would give me $50+ back in usable KS funds which I would rather be spending on minis. :-p
The paint set in particular is a bit disappointing. It's a standard, off the shelf set, with a 10% discount off of MSRP. Of course, many online retailers do way better than that.
I guess it's an option, and it can save on shipping, but waiting months to save 10% off of something that's readily available on store shelves isn't my idea of deal.
Why would they become the standard over the men at arms kit which is 33% better with twice the options? Yes they would be fantasy but they would be just as likely to not fit into the aesthetic of a random army as the historics.
Because Perry minis are not fantasy minis. They don't look like fantasy minis for a variety of reasons. They look dinky next to almost any plastic fantasy miniature. Their weapons lack that je ne sais quoi that makes fantasy weapons exciting; plus they are dinky. Their poses are boring; fantasy miniatures should ideally look ready to fight mythical beasts, but Perry minis are better posed for their more historically-accurate battle with dysentery.
Now, I haven't bought any of their most recent kits since the WOTR infantry let me down hard, so it's possible this new kit fixes all of those issues. If so, please let me know.
I agree that they would become the standard non-GW option based on being fantasy and radically more affordable than GW, and they were scaled to Mantic rather than perry, they would fit in better with a wider variety of fantasy minis.
That said, I disagree about the necessity of dramatic poses for rank-and-file fantasy minis. For heroes, I like something flamboyant, but for rank and file I actually prefer more subdued poses for both the look and the ease of ranking.
Asside from pose and size, I'd be curious what you didn't like about the WorR infantry. I don't own them, but they seem nice in all the reviews I've seen.
The last time I played WFB, you could actually change your regiment formation during the game (no idea if you can still do this as it was in the 90s), so I used to just blue tac my minis to a piece of card - so I could remove casualties or reform them easily. I still do if I am playing a game with unpainted models (not that I play very often).
What I have started doing recently is hot gluing my painted models (on their 20x20 base) to movement trays. They should be relatively easy to take off if I decided to play different games or something changes in KOWs (or I want to add them to a horde or something).
Wehrkind wrote: Wait... wut? 30 base attacks? I don't even... wow. I am guessing that doesn't work out to be horribly awkward, based on the fact people play the game pretty happily it seems, but I am having trouble imagining how it works.
Oh, KoW is a buckets o' dice game. But that's one of the reasons I like it, because you can count on the law of averages a lot (I hit on 4+, I wound on 4+, I SHOULD get 5 wounds out of 20 dice)...
It tends to average out most of the Warhammer8 style "This Vortex Murders Your Whole Unit on a 2+"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: but Perry minis are better posed for their more historically-accurate battle with dysentery.
So I thought I would share something for fence-sitters and those considering the game.
Last night, by fluke, I had a chance to watch players playing WFB and KoW side-by-side at the shop. While I was there to play 40k, I quickly found myself instead watching the two games and marvelling at how much KoW managed to win me over (personal tastes and all).
What really struck me was that KoW was a game where I felt the nuance and depth was really happening in the movement phase (orders). Between the quick turns and movement really bearing the weight of a players complex decisions, I felt like the game really depicted what I would expect this scale of battle to look like. Considering both games were played at 2000pts of their respective points-systems, KoW also had a great table presence with what, at a glance, appeared to be twice the model count on the table.
WFB seemed to just drag down with players frequently arguing about minutia in terms of which models could and couldn't contribute to combat, etc... and movement seemed secondary to a surprisingly long "magic" phase. The Elf player also seemed to do the VAST majority of his work during the magic phase, and seemed markedly disinterested in worrying about positioning, etc.
I will say, on the aesthetics front, WFB had some incredible high-fantasy "big models" though, which certainly had an amazing presence and really made me want KoW to be spiked with more giant monsters down the road.
In any case, I left appreciating WFB, but wanting to genuinely play KoW. I feel like the hobbyist in me could love collecting/painting a WFB army, but the obscenely quick, elegant, tactical play of KoW just really impresses. If you haven't seen it played, try to, because while we've all heard the "quick to learn/fast playing" line from other game companies, it is almost shocking how lean, but not shallow KoW ends up being.
"
They'll be toned down a bit in the new edition, but still more than playable.
