Pretty reliable alpha strike for this guy - leave him off the board to level-up Ghal Maraz, deploy outside 9", roll charge - then as long as you roll a 3+ you can 'Kairos' the other dice roll to a 6...
Hrm, cant say I'm overly impressed. I was kinda expecting like a ornate bone giant sized stormcast but by no means is it a bad sculpt. I think the issue with him is that why the swirly spirits and peripherals of Nagash served to draw your eyes to him as this extremely powerful being, with the prime they're more of a distraction, taking away from the central mini.
It doesnt help that he seems to share only a slightly larger stature than the other stormcasts. I like him but I feel it was a missed opportunity to do something more... epic? Imposing?
Ir0njack wrote: Hrm, cant say I'm overly impressed. I was kinda expecting like a ornate bone giant sized stormcast but by no means is it a bad sculpt. I think the issue with him is that why the swirly spirits and peripherals of Nagash served to draw your eyes to him as this extremely powerful being, with the prime they're more of a distraction, taking away from the central mini.
To an extent, a lot has to do with the colors. The swirly bits are rather bright on the Celestant Prime while on Nagash they're muted.
It doesnt help that he seems to share only a slightly larger stature than the other stormcasts. I like him but I feel it was a missed opportunity to do something more... epic? Imposing?
Which would make him into something completely different for the Stormcast, IMO. He's the First Celestant, the First Stormcast.
He's the same price as a Mortarch, and Mortarchs are deceptively large as well.
Mortarchs are quite a bit bigger by my eye (without seeing them next to each other). The actual Sigmarite isn't much bigger than a normal one if at all, and the Mortarchs have the big beast mounts as well as the swirly base stuff. I dunno, I'd have to see them next to each other.
He's the same price as a Mortarch, and Mortarchs are deceptively large as well.
Mortarchs are quite a bit bigger by my eye (without seeing them next to each other). The actual Sigmarite isn't much bigger than a normal one if at all, and the Mortarchs have the big beast mounts as well as the swirly base stuff. I dunno, I'd have to see them next to each other.
Mortarchs are large and their beast mount is large, but it's also very much hollow.
The Celestant Prime, if it truly is just an upsized Prosecutor, will likely have very little "hollow" space inside.
Also, like I said--character model pricing, yo.
The Stormcast character models have not been cheap, at all. Annoying but eh. At least this guy isn't like the Lord-Castellant where he is the only way to get Gryph-Hounds and you wouldn't actually want to have multiples.
On the one hand it is nice to see an incredibly fancy model that isn't merely another big monster.
On the other hand, a good 50% of the model is its swirly supporting geometry. I think the swirling is cool as a demonstration of how good GW has become with its digital sculpting and plastic casting, as were previous recent models, like nagash. I think the swirls make it a cool display piece and something that I'm sure professional painters could do wonders with. But I'm not sure it's necessary for a gaming piece. Compare the model in question to GW's fantastic Saint Celestine:
She's still an awesome sculpt, but practical.
I suppose the counter to that would be that this new model may be comparable to greater daemons and nagash in terms of game power and thus is justified in its scale. This also comes with the obligatory Dakkadakka Sense of Moral Outrage® that it enables GW to charge three times as much for an infantry model. But I digress....
Ir0njack wrote: Hrm, cant say I'm overly impressed. I was kinda expecting like a ornate bone giant sized stormcast but by no means is it a bad sculpt. I think the issue with him is that why the swirly spirits and peripherals of Nagash served to draw your eyes to him as this extremely powerful being, with the prime they're more of a distraction, taking away from the central mini.
To an extent, a lot has to do with the colors. The swirly bits are rather bright on the Celestant Prime while on Nagash they're muted.
It doesnt help that he seems to share only a slightly larger stature than the other stormcasts. I like him but I feel it was a missed opportunity to do something more... epic? Imposing?
Which would make him into something completely different for the Stormcast, IMO. He's the First Celestant, the First Stormcast.
He's not a mecha-Stormcast.
You can't tell me mecha stormcast wouldn't at least be a little cool.
That is a pretty reasonable price, relative to comparable Fantasy models.
Wait...
Dude... capital "F" in Fantasy as in Warhammer Fantasy. It's consistent in price with similar models of a similar size from Fantasy Battle, since we have no other AoS specific models of that size yet to compare it with.
looks ok, but overall im sad GW missed an opportunity to make a really cool center piece. The sigmarines really needed some kind of Construct, something to do battle with the Maggoth Lords/Glotkin/Blood Thirster/ Thundertusk/Slaughterbrute sized monsters. Another floaty dude, as cool as he looks, looks just like all the rest..
They don't need Dreadnoughts or more crap for people to keep spouting off about "sigmarines hurr".
And truthfully? You want to "do battle with the Maggoth Lords/Glottkin/Bloodthirster/Thundertusk/Slaughterbrute sized monsters"--you bring out the Protectors or Retributors.
Trust me on this. Those guys butcher monsters like it's just another ho-hum boring day.
Yep I wish the Stormcast had a Bloodcrusher type unit. I don't like the lord on dracoth. Don't like the Khorgorath either. Think GW monsters/big characters have looked weird lately. I'd love a dreadnought type for the Stormcast.
They could have done a decent construct of some sort. At the least they should have done some kind of larger monster. I know everyone is hating on large monsters, but the Sigmarines tamed what ever it is that dude rides, They just need something to break up the sea of Gold emotionless men that makes up that army.
Well I suppose if you like it you like it, no accounting for taste, but yeesh, almost 50 quid for a bloke and some garish, totally unnecessary swirly bitz? I must be operating under a very different version of the word "reasonable" if people consider that reasonably priced, yes even compared to GW's normally-mental prices.
As to the subjective aesthetics aspect; ew, no ta. The AoS stuff seems very much like GW's aesthetic direction is now less "fantasy/sci-fi with a few twists of METAL*guitar solo*", and more This Is Spinal Tap - I just can't tell any more if they're taking the piss out of their customers or themselves.
Chopxsticks wrote: They could have done a decent construct of some sort. At the least they should have done some kind of larger monster. I know everyone is hating on large monsters, but the Sigmarines tamed what ever it is that dude rides, They just need something to break up the sea of Gold emotionless men that makes up that army.
They need to have something to release later. I think there might be a certain amount of Sigmarite fatigue at the moment even amongst the fans.
Bull0 wrote: I
By the way guys - Yodhrin doesn't like AoS. Just in case you hadn't got that by now.
And this is problem why exactly?
I don't like it either, much for the same reasons; but I'm still curious to see what they're doing to this world I once very much loved if we're gonna go down the "Whatcha doin' in this thread if you don't like AoS!" .
Bull0 wrote: I
By the way guys - Yodhrin doesn't like AoS. Just in case you hadn't got that by now.
And this is problem why exactly?
I don't like it either, much for the same reasons; but I'm still curious to see what they're doing to this world I once very much loved if we're gonna go down the "Whatcha doin' in this thread if you don't like AoS!" .
If I came into every thread about Privateer Press and stated that "Well I suppose if you like it you like it, no accounting for taste"--I'd have people accusing me of trolling.
That's what Bull0 is likely referring to. There's a way to express the sentiment of "I don't like it but if you like it that's fine", and making what could be construed as personal attacks is not it.
Bull0 wrote: I By the way guys - Yodhrin doesn't like AoS. Just in case you hadn't got that by now.
And this is problem why exactly?
I don't like it either, much for the same reasons; but I'm still curious to see what they're doing to this world I once very much loved if we're gonna go down the "Whatcha doin' in this thread if you don't like AoS!" .
If I came into every thread about Privateer Press and stated that "Well I suppose if you like it you like it, no accounting for taste"--I'd have people accusing me of trolling.
That's what Bull0 is likely referring to. There's a way to express the sentiment of "I don't like it but if you like it that's fine", and making what could be construed as personal attacks is not it.
Yeah, that's basically it. The horse is dead, the cat o'nine tails can safely be stowed away for now. Keeping an eye on what's going on doesn't have to mean gaking on everything incessantly nor doing it in such a condescending, insulting sort of way. It was really quite a light jab though, to say "we get it, you hate it". Could've gone harder, really.
IDK about him, something is off IMHO. I mean, for his scale he is rather bloated and undetailed especially when you look at GW's other kits. Nagash and the Mortarchs blow this fellow out of the water IMHO.
BTW $80 dollars for that guy is highway robbery if he doesn't have multiple options. Their is an argument to be made for large MC dual kits or Vehicles with lots of components or pose-ability (riptide), but a static dude with some wings and lord knows WTF whirring around his ankles should not cost that much unless he in fact does have another version as an option in the kit.
We shall see.
PS the lion face in his chest looks like its pooping
^^ Why not? Now that AOS is taking a drastically different aesthetic to WFB, it would be nice to see some Imperial Knight-sized units in this setting.
Maybe that is me being too extreme, when there are plenty of great 'centerpiece kits' in Fantasy already. Maybe not a 'jumbo knight' like the dreadknight, but something in that ballpark would have been a big draw for me into the Stormcasts.
Korinov wrote: I'd say the actual Sanguinor model profits from a way better design than this... thing. At least it's a model aimed for tabletop wargaming. The flying Sigmarine looks like another showcase model. I mean, are people actually supposed to be carrying that thing around?
In their specially designed $100 foam case? Why not?
I don't like the swirly thing. I don't understand why it is constrained into such tight trails of whatever.
I mean, with Nagash, he's surrounded and supported by spirits, but each of the spirits is relatively distinct, and the 'ectoplasm' serves as the outline of their forms. So I understand what the negative space in the model is supposed to be.
With this? I don't get it, conceptually or visually. If the 'winds of Azyr' or whatever were a little less tightly bounded, swirling around the base, then it might make sense to me. If the trailing spirals were spinning hoops of gold or sigmarite or whatever, it might make sense, as they would all be distinct orbitals. Instead, it looks like a tooled plastic version of a pop-up card. I expect he would fold flat for transport.
Admittedly, the entire AoS Sigmarite look is not my thing, but I recognize that it's largely very well sculpted; not my personal cup of tea, but well executed. This looks like they were trying to save on plastic when making the whirlwind.
I think it would actually look better if they took a page from Pathfinder or D&D and produced the entire bottom in translucent plastic.
I don't care how the Pro GW camp spins it 80$ for 54mm miniature with a few swirly bits is to steep, could get a nice 54mm or 70mm figure for that price but it will be no GW off course
Yodhrin wrote: Well I suppose if you like it you like it, no accounting for taste, but yeesh, almost 50 quid for a bloke and some garish, totally unnecessary swirly bitz? I must be operating under a very different version of the word "reasonable" if people consider that reasonably priced, yes even compared to GW's normally-mental prices.
As to the subjective aesthetics aspect; ew, no ta. The AoS stuff seems very much like GW's aesthetic direction is now less "fantasy/sci-fi with a few twists of METAL*guitar solo*", and more This Is Spinal Tap - I just can't tell any more if they're taking the piss out of their customers or themselves.
I was thinking the exact thing. I'm waiting for the punchline, but I know for a fact that they are dead serious about this whole.... thing.
These fuglers are really disappointing, at the end of the day. 3rd edition, here I come.... Then on to Mordhiem.... yet again.
I think he looks pretty sweet. In three dimensions, all that swirly detail with all those ribbons and wings will have an impressive sense of depth. On a table with a bunch of squat miniatures, he's going to pop, I think. He's flying, but the supports aren't directly under him or obvious like with the Prosecutors, so he feels a bit more floaty and heavenly to me.
The price seems way off from what I'd like to pay, which is what I've basically said about every GW release I've seen since starting AoS. I'm starting to get used to the idea that GW doesn't aim for what I'd like to pay and instead prices around what I'd begrudgingly be willing to pay (with a 15-20% discount).
I do not like him. The size of his bust / barrel chest has exceeded my tolerances.
The whole flying, swirly, angel thing is tiresome as well and not cool.
A giant stomping dude, like a shining sigmarite version of Sauron from LOTR movies - that would have been cool.
He is everything i find distasteful in the sigmarines, turned up to 11.
A mincing, pin-headed, barrel-chested buffoon.
Jehan-reznor wrote: I don't care how the Pro GW camp spins it 80$ for 54mm miniature with a few swirly bits is to steep, could get a nice 54mm or 70mm figure for that price but it will be no GW off course
Spoiler:
Is that guy on horseback about to throw a Batarang???
Anyway....
I am with Da Butcha - while I recognize the detail and skill required to make this guy... he does zero for me, and that zero goes to negative when I see an $80 tag attached to him. Then again, so far, nothing from the Sigmarite selections has grabbed me in the slightest.
For Siggie players, I definitely understand why they would be thrilled, and I am certainly happy for them!
Jehan-reznor wrote: I don't care how the Pro GW camp spins it 80$ for 54mm miniature with a few swirly bits is to steep, could get a nice 54mm or 70mm figure for that price but it will be no GW off course
Spoiler:
Well, first of all, I wouldn't paint that miniature if you gave it to me for free. It has no draw to me at all, because there's nothing at all about it that's magical or futuristic, and anything that doesn't meet one of those two criteria is automatically excluded from my projects list.
But really... Celestant Prime is a nice miniature. It is an amazing technical feat that most companies could not produce and it is not a 7cm miniature, lol. That's like not counting the wings of a dragon or angel as a part of the model -- nevermind the beautiful base. If you think it's ugly or overpriced, don't buy it. I actually thought it would be Nagash-priced, rather than Mortarch-priced, so the pricing is a pleasant surprise.
If you play Sigmarites, at that price and with those rules, it will be an auto-buy. If you collect Sigmarites, at that price, it will *probably* be an auto-buy. If you don't like Sigmarites, nothing GW could have done would have enticed you to buy it anyways.
Jehan-reznor wrote: I don't care how the Pro GW camp spins it 80$ for 54mm miniature with a few swirly bits is to steep, could get a nice 54mm or 70mm figure for that price but it will be no GW off course
Spoiler:
Well, first of all, I wouldn't paint that miniature if you gave it to me for free. It has no draw to me at all, because there's nothing at all about it that's magical or futuristic, and anything that doesn't meet one of those two criteria is automatically excluded from my projects list.
But really... Celestant Prime is a nice miniature. It is an amazing technical feat that most companies could not produce and it is not a 7cm miniature, lol. That's like not counting the wings of a dragon or angel as a part of the model -- nevermind the beautiful base. If you think it's ugly or overpriced, don't buy it. I actually thought it would be Nagash-priced, rather than Mortarch-priced, so the pricing is a pleasant surprise.
If you play Sigmarites, at that price and with those rules, it will be an auto-buy. If you collect Sigmarites, at that price, it will *probably* be an auto-buy. If you don't like Sigmarites, nothing GW could have done would have enticed you to buy it anyways.
To be 100% honest I think most companies don't make crap like this new sigmarine because there isn't a huge amount of sales to be had from it. How many of these are likely to sell? Not too many I imagine. How many rank and file men are people likely to buy? Hundreds depending on the game.
Its pretty simple really. Thats why other companies make sensible models in normal poses, because that's what most people want/need. Of course this depends on the game.
That's why I can buy Napoleonic soldiers in plastic for 1 dollar a model, but this sigmarine will likely cost 150 + Napoleonic soldiers (im guessing the NZ price here). Because GW doesn't expect to sell many of these and needs to make their investment back, but the people who make generic normal guys know people will buy decent amounts of them so they can be reasonably priced.
I purchased a 54mm Samurai from a guy at Weta Workshop for 40NZD (26 roughly US) and I think it is amazing compared to this thing. Samurai have amazing clothing and very intricate stitching on their armour and I assume the guy spent a loooong time hand sculpting the original model. I could be a lot of these for the price of one fancy Sigmarine.
It's not a stretch or silly to say this new model from GW is over priced at all, because it is. You liking it doesn't stop it being a rip off, you are just willing to overlook the rip off.
Swastakowey wrote: To be 100% honest I think most companies don't make crap like this new sigmarine because there isn't a huge amount of sales to be had from it. How many of these are likely to sell? Not too many I imagine. How many rank and file men are people likely to buy? Hundreds depending on the game.
Its pretty simple really. Thats why other companies make sensible models in normal poses, because that's what most people want/need. Of course this depends on the game.
That's why I can buy Napoleonic soldiers in plastic for 1 dollar a model, but this sigmarine will likely cost 150 + Napoleonic soldiers (im guessing the NZ price here). Because GW doesn't expect to sell many of these and needs to make their investment back, but the people who make generic normal guys know people will buy decent amounts of them so they can be reasonably priced.
I purchased a 54mm Samurai from a guy at Weta Workshop for 40NZD (26 roughly US) and I think it is amazing compared to this thing. Samurai have amazing clothing and very intricate stitching on their armour and I assume the guy spent a loooong time hand sculpting the original model. I could be a lot of these for the price of one fancy Sigmarine.
It's not a stretch or silly to say this new model from GW is over priced at all, because it is. You liking it doesn't stop it being a rip off, you are just willing to overlook the rip off.
I don't know if there's actually data to support there being more historical models being sold than GW models. In my area, there's *one* store that sells historical models (as opposed to maybe a half dozen that sell GW stuff), and I am positive it sells way more 40k models than historicals, or anything else other than Magic the Gathering. Certainly, you are right that this *one model* is not going to sell better than any number of models sold for historicals (because after all, each player only field ONE), but the model's price is pretty consistent with other GW models, which was my point. IE - they aren't jacking up the price because the model has good rules, and it belongs to a faction that is undoubtedly popular with AoS fans. Also, it's not like Treeman Ancient, where you can field multiples, "justifying" a lower price.
And sorry, I disagree that it's a rip off. Something is priced correctly if the people who want it are willing to pay that price. It doesn't really matter what the rest of the world thinks of it... because they didn't want it anyways. It also doesn't matter if there are alternatives, if the people who want the item don't really want the alternatives
But anyhow, if you ARE right, and these are expensive models because there aren't many people buying them, then that's also not a ripoff, because if you want something that's a niche item, you'll always pay more.
Swastakowey wrote: To be 100% honest I think most companies don't make crap like this new sigmarine because there isn't a huge amount of sales to be had from it. How many of these are likely to sell? Not too many I imagine. How many rank and file men are people likely to buy? Hundreds depending on the game.
Its pretty simple really. Thats why other companies make sensible models in normal poses, because that's what most people want/need. Of course this depends on the game.
That's why I can buy Napoleonic soldiers in plastic for 1 dollar a model, but this sigmarine will likely cost 150 + Napoleonic soldiers (im guessing the NZ price here). Because GW doesn't expect to sell many of these and needs to make their investment back, but the people who make generic normal guys know people will buy decent amounts of them so they can be reasonably priced.
I purchased a 54mm Samurai from a guy at Weta Workshop for 40NZD (26 roughly US) and I think it is amazing compared to this thing. Samurai have amazing clothing and very intricate stitching on their armour and I assume the guy spent a loooong time hand sculpting the original model. I could be a lot of these for the price of one fancy Sigmarine.
It's not a stretch or silly to say this new model from GW is over priced at all, because it is. You liking it doesn't stop it being a rip off, you are just willing to overlook the rip off.
I don't know if there's actually data to support there being more historical models being sold than GW models. In my area, there's *one* store that sells historical models, and I am positive it sells way more 40k models than historicals (or anything else other than Magic the Gathering). Certainly, you are right that this *one model* is not going to sell better than any number of historicals.
And sorry, I disagree that it's a rip off. Something is priced correctly if the people who want it are willing to pay that price. It doesn't really matter what the rest of the world thinks of it... because they didn't want it anyways.
My point was other companies sell basic normal models because they sell better... this model as you said will sell to a minority which is why the price is so high. I have seen stunning work from many other companies but it's simply not money efficient for other companies to make stupid models like this because lets face it, of the few people who buy this, that small group will at most buy 1 each.
Hence why they aren't common, and why GW has put the price up so high. Which makes it a rip off materially no matter how much you love it.
My point was other companies sell basic normal models because they sell better... this model as you said will sell to a minority which is why the price is so high. I have seen stunning work from many other companies but it's simply not money efficient for other companies to make stupid models like this because lets face it, of the few people who buy this, that small group will at most buy 1 each.
Hence why they aren't common, and why GW has put the price up so high. Which makes it a rip off materially no matter how much you love it.
@ Swastoakowey - I think that any expensive item feels like a ripoff to its non-target audience. For instance, a $6,000 Chanel handbag to someone who doesn't want one will think it's insane; to someone who does, they'll save up for it and lovingly handle it. Obviously, the people who buy them and are happy with their purchases don't feel like they are ripped off.
But it is ok, I'll just disagree and say that to me, it's fair pricing for the type, model, and size of model, and I agree that GW isn't going to sell a ton of them. I personally like big, fancy fantasy and scifi models, so I guess I just expect to pay a premium for them, regardless of who makes them.
My point was other companies sell basic normal models because they sell better... this model as you said will sell to a minority which is why the price is so high. I have seen stunning work from many other companies but it's simply not money efficient for other companies to make stupid models like this because lets face it, of the few people who buy this, that small group will at most buy 1 each.
Hence why they aren't common, and why GW has put the price up so high. Which makes it a rip off materially no matter how much you love it.
@ Swastoakowey - I think that any expensive item feels like a ripoff to its non-target audience. For instance, a $6,000 Chanel handbag to someone who doesn't want one will think it's insane; to someone who does, they'll save up for it and lovingly handle it. Obviously, the people who buy them and are happy with their purchases don't feel like they are ripped off.
But it is ok, I'll just disagree and say that to me, it's fair pricing for the type, model, and size of model, and I agree that GW isn't going to sell a ton of them. I personally like big, fancy fantasy and scifi models, so I guess I just expect to pay a premium for them, regardless of who makes them.
That argument means nothing. The cost of an island to someone who doesn't want an island means nothing. But the cost of that island can be a rip off to someone who wants an Island yea?
For example, I wouldn't mind buying Vostroyans (or any of the Guard Regiments of old) and I most definitely am their target for it (I have the money, the time and the want) but unfortunately even for me, paying that amount of money for some metal men is a rip off to me despite that gaurd range being among my favorite non historical models. Just because you want something doesn't mean it is no longer a rip off.
It is a rip off, because they have made a model that is not going to sell much (as we have agreed) and have to jack up the price. This does not change because you like the model...
I believe the point with the price tag (as with many GW miniatures) is that they would theoretically make more money if they reduced the price for the same miniature. Such as if you make half as much per sale but sell three times as much then you are better off with the reduced price. Its impossible to tell for sure whether or not this is true in this (or any other) models' case so we are left speculating. At the end of the day the model will sell to some people, but there will also be a fair number of people spending money elsewhere (be it on different GW models or a different company) that would have bought the model if it's price was 15% less. Personally I think it is overpriced and I can see why people think it is a rip off, especially compared to other similarly priced 'centerpiece' models from GW; the Mortarch kit has already been mentioned, and the maggoth lord kit comes to mind as well.
[edit] Heck, a Daemon Prince from FW costs less than this guy.
That argument means nothing. The cost of an island to someone who doesn't want an island means nothing. But the cost of that island can be a rip off to someone who wants an Island yea?
For example, I wouldn't mind buying Vostroyans (or any of the Guard Regiments of old) and I most definitely am their target for it (I have the money, the time and the want) but unfortunately even for me, paying that amount of money for some metal men is a rip off to me despite that gaurd range being among my favorite non historical models. Just because you want something doesn't mean it is no longer a rip off.
It is a rip off, because they have made a model that is not going to sell much (as we have agreed) and have to jack up the price. This does not change because you like the model...
Well put it another way.
Concert A costs $5 a ticket. Concert B costs $500 a ticket. Is Concert B a ripoff?
The problem is, when you say, "this is a ripoff", you imply two things, one of which is not true, and one of which is a little offensive.
One, that another cheaper product is equivalent. Unless it's actually the same, it's not equivalent, because if it isn't the same, it's a matter of desirability. For an item that is an artistic expression, whether it is a miniature sculpture or a giant painting or music, two things are not equivalent, unless they are reproductions of the same product.
Two, this implies that people who buy such items aren't very bright. After all, what smart person goes and gets ripped off on purpose? There are some of us who just *like* GW product, and think, for whatever reason, that they are superior products. Putting aside technical superiority in plastics tooling and casting as compared to certain other companies, it's mostly just an opinion of, "I like GW stuff a lot" combined with, "I don't think product X is equivalent to product Y."
That argument means nothing. The cost of an island to someone who doesn't want an island means nothing. But the cost of that island can be a rip off to someone who wants an Island yea?
For example, I wouldn't mind buying Vostroyans (or any of the Guard Regiments of old) and I most definitely am their target for it (I have the money, the time and the want) but unfortunately even for me, paying that amount of money for some metal men is a rip off to me despite that gaurd range being among my favorite non historical models. Just because you want something doesn't mean it is no longer a rip off.
It is a rip off, because they have made a model that is not going to sell much (as we have agreed) and have to jack up the price. This does not change because you like the model...
Well put it another way.
Concert A costs $5 a ticket. Concert B costs $500 a ticket. Is Concert B a ripoff?
The problem is, when you say, "this is a ripoff", you imply two things, one of which is not true, and one of which is a little offensive.
One, that another cheaper product is equivalent. Unless it's actually the same, it's not equivalent, because if it isn't the same, it's a matter of desirability. For an item that is an artistic expression, whether it is a miniature sculpture or a giant painting or music, two things are not equivalent, unless they are reproductions of the same product.
Two, this implies that people who buy such items aren't very bright. After all, what smart person goes and gets ripped off on purpose? There are some of us who just *like* GW product, and think, for whatever reason, that they are superior products. Putting aside technical superiority in plastics tooling and casting as compared to certain other companies, it's mostly just an opinion of, "I like GW stuff a lot" combined with, "I don't think product X is equivalent to product Y."
Yes but now you are changing the situation.
You made the false statement that this model is better than what any other company CAN produce, I merely said why other companies do not waste their time with stuff like this.
However your example is worthless because this model, on it's own, is a rip off. Compare it with other similar models and it gets even more of a rip off even within the GW range. However still, on it's own, it is a rip off. You liking it changes nothing about how much of a rip off it is. Like you said, they rip you off because it is "niche".
You made the false statement that this model is better than what any other company CAN produce, I merely said why other companies do not waste their time with stuff like this.
However your example is worthless because this model, on it's own, is a rip off. Compare it with other similar models and it gets even more of a rip off even within the GW range. However still, on it's own, it is a rip off. You liking it changes nothing about how much of a rip off it is. Like you said, they rip you off because it is "niche".
Well, if you want to go back to technical capabilities, I stand by what I said. There are VERY few companies that could produce a model like this one, in this material. It doesn't matter that you don't want one, because there are others that do. Earlier, you said that nobody else makes them because you don't think anyone wants models like this, but clearly, it's not true based on GW's revenue. I contend that others don't make nice HIPS models like this, because they don't have the capability to do so, or the volume or distribution to make it profitable. If PP could make all its colossals and gargantuans plastic and economically feasible, I'm sure they would, because their players would absolutely go nuts over it.
The models I compare it to are Mortarchs, Treeman Ancient, Nagash -- and it's correctly priced compared to them. This is not a Prosecutor with a few swirls under it, as some people seem to think.
Every single niche product that's more expensive than a non-niche product is not a ripoff >.< I mean, at the face of it, that just sounds ridiculous.
Anyways, we can go round and round, so I'll just leave it at that, and go back to my Land Raider. Which is about the same price
TwilightSparkles wrote: Dakka should have a script auto detect pointless GW pricing discussions and just remove them into their own forums.
It's. A . Plastic. Figure.
No one needs it. You have a choice. Buy it. Do not.
And if you do buy it then avail yourself of up to 25% discount online......
Yes, it seems rather pointless.
I think that whether something is a rip-off or not is subjective. It all depends on how much you value your money, and how much you value the item under consideration.
You made the false statement that this model is better than what any other company CAN produce, I merely said why other companies do not waste their time with stuff like this.
However your example is worthless because this model, on it's own, is a rip off. Compare it with other similar models and it gets even more of a rip off even within the GW range. However still, on it's own, it is a rip off. You liking it changes nothing about how much of a rip off it is. Like you said, they rip you off because it is "niche".
Well, if you want to go back to technical capabilities, I stand by what I said. There are VERY few companies that could produce a model like this one, in this material. It doesn't matter that you don't want one, because there are others that do. Earlier, you said that nobody else makes them because you don't think anyone wants models like this, but clearly, it's not true based on GW's revenue. I contend that others don't make nice HIPS models like this, because they don't have the capability to do so, or the volume or distribution to make it profitable. If PP could make all its colossals and gargantuans plastic and economically feasible, I'm sure they would, because their players would absolutely go nuts over it.
The models I compare it to are Mortarchs, Treeman Ancient, Nagash -- and it's correctly priced compared to them. This is not a Prosecutor with a few swirls under it, as some people seem to think.
Every single niche product that's more expensive than a non-niche product is not a ripoff >.< I mean, at the face of it, that just sounds ridiculous.
Anyways, we can go round and round, so I'll just leave it at that, and go back to my Land Raider. Which is about the same price
Really? See aren't you the guy that made all these claims about Gundams without knowing about Gundams only to find out you were... wrong.
See I know exactly what you are gonna say after seeing this model below... "it's not Sci Fi or GW so I don't like it so it doesn't count!"
Spoiler:
I would love to see a GW model ever get to that sort of technical amazement that I see from so many companies out there.
ANYWAY...
It is clear your ONLY argument for this models price is because it is niche, which doesn't explain it's price by the way because niche merely means targeting a particular audience (like... most companies do?). In Fact you have said it costs more for being niche (whatever that means) and then go to say that price increase for no reason does not make it a rip off?
I get it dude, you like it, but being contrarian for the sake of it gets pretty silly.
Enjoy the Land raider, I too have models to paint. Agree to Disagree I guess.
Swas, you said other companies make plain models (boring models by my standards) because making something like this was stupid. That's pretty ridiculous. GW gets away with a lot of terrible behavior because they are one of the few companies that actually does produce minis that aren't plain, safe and boring, in plastic.
Now, I agree the price is wayyyyy too high for the Celestant Prime, but I'm very happy that GW still makes fun miniatures, even if I won't buy them. Who else is even trying to do that in plastic?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Swas, you said other companies make plain models (boring models by my standards) because making something like this was stupid. That's pretty ridiculous. GW gets away with a lot of terrible behavior because they are one of the few companies that actually does produce minis that aren't plain, safe and boring, in plastic.
Now, I agree the price is wayyyyy too high for the Celestant Prime, but I'm very happy that GW still makes fun miniatures, even if I won't buy them. Who else is even trying to do that in plastic?
No because something like this isn't going to sell very well was my reasoning. I said that because he seems to think other companies can't. Im not annoyed they make them, im more annoyed at the price and then the people who try pull it off like that price is reasonable. Other than that I agree to an extent with what you say yea.
Other companies don't make boring models though, not at all.
I get it dude, you like it, but being contrarian for the sake of it gets pretty silly.
Enjoy the Land raider, I too have models to paint. Agree to Disagree I guess.
Defending products you like, and stating that you think that prices are in line with other comparable models in the series is not being contrarian. It actually makes more sense than hopping on every week to say that products are too expensive for a line that you don't like I'm going to guess that for the last 100 weeks you thought GW's prices were ripoffs, and the next 100 weeks, they'll also be ripoffs. I'll probably think that most of them are expensive, but in line with the market prices of such models (note, something can be expensive, even unaffordable, without being a ripoff). I will will no doubt think some things are a great deal and some things are less so.
But anyways... enjoy painting your stuff too, and let's try to get back to N&R before we get some mod smackdown
Jehan-reznor wrote: I don't care how the Pro GW camp spins it 80$ for 54mm miniature with a few swirly bits is to steep, could get a nice 54mm or 70mm figure for that price but it will be no GW off course
Spoiler:
Well, first of all, I wouldn't paint that miniature if you gave it to me for free. It has no draw to me at all, because there's nothing at all about it that's magical or futuristic, and anything that doesn't meet one of those two criteria is automatically excluded from my projects list.
But really... Celestant Prime is a nice miniature. It is an amazing technical feat that most companies could not produce and it is not a 7cm miniature, lol. That's like not counting the wings of a dragon or angel as a part of the model -- nevermind the beautiful base. If you think it's ugly or overpriced, don't buy it. I actually thought it would be Nagash-priced, rather than Mortarch-priced, so the pricing is a pleasant surprise.
If you play Sigmarites, at that price and with those rules, it will be an auto-buy. If you collect Sigmarites, at that price, it will *probably* be an auto-buy. If you don't like Sigmarites, nothing GW could have done would have enticed you to buy it anyways.
I really don't think it's as amazing a technical feat as you make it out to be. It's just swirly plastic magic, Wyrd have plenty of examples of swirly plastic magic for example.
Is this Prime going to be the last AoS release for the time being or is there still more? September is approaching fast and rumours said either Tau or Tzeentch, yeah?
MacMuckles wrote: Is this Prime going to be the last AoS release for the time being or is there still more? September is approaching fast and rumours said either Tau or Tzeentch, yeah?
At this point, who knows? Though we have got some idea of the near future releases. Air brush paints, a 30K era game (which we've seen sprues for)
MacMuckles wrote: Is this Prime going to be the last AoS release for the time being or is there still more? September is approaching fast and rumours said either Tau or Tzeentch, yeah?
Going by the novels, I would say a Banner Guy and a Horny Guy are in the wings.
I like the prime model a lot. I have a feeling it will look even better in person, all of these models tend to. It also provides a nice centerpiece model for the army.
I quite like the sigmarines and I am looking forward to getting them fully painted and on the table.
Ah Talys, i know you like GW a lot (and that is an understatement ) But even you should agree that for people, who are not infatuated with GW,that this is quite steep for a single figure that is not as massive as a Glokin or as big as Nagash.
For 80$ i'll could just get a 54mm knight with some swirly putty and i have my Prime.
If you are willing to pay that OK, but i think a lot of people will not.
Honestly, GW do produce impressive looking miniatures, even when the style is not to my taste.
But these last releases have just reinforced for me the fact that I am not their target audience. The prices are simply too high for me. And the design seems to be more and more directed at display, rather than functionality and gameplay.
And I guess I prefer those two things.
I'm not trying to insult anyone else's taste, what I'm saying is that I prefer simple and even slightly ugly models for a price I can afford. I had kind of hoped that AoS would really mean a move to more affordable pieces, but it looks like it's not going to be that way.
Swastakowey wrote: To be 100% honest I think most companies don't make crap like this new sigmarine because there isn't a huge amount of sales to be had from it. How many of these are likely to sell? Not too many I imagine. How many rank and file men are people likely to buy? Hundreds depending on the game.
Its pretty simple really. Thats why other companies make sensible models in normal poses, because that's what most people want/need. Of course this depends on the game.
That's why I can buy Napoleonic soldiers in plastic for 1 dollar a model, but this sigmarine will likely cost 150 + Napoleonic soldiers (im guessing the NZ price here). Because GW doesn't expect to sell many of these and needs to make their investment back, but the people who make generic normal guys know people will buy decent amounts of them so they can be reasonably priced.
I purchased a 54mm Samurai from a guy at Weta Workshop for 40NZD (26 roughly US) and I think it is amazing compared to this thing. Samurai have amazing clothing and very intricate stitching on their armour and I assume the guy spent a loooong time hand sculpting the original model. I could be a lot of these for the price of one fancy Sigmarine.
It's not a stretch or silly to say this new model from GW is over priced at all, because it is. You liking it doesn't stop it being a rip off, you are just willing to overlook the rip off.
I don't know if there's actually data to support there being more historical models being sold than GW models. In my area, there's *one* store that sells historical models (as opposed to maybe a half dozen that sell GW stuff), and I am positive it sells way more 40k models than historicals, or anything else other than Magic the Gathering. Certainly, you are right that this *one model* is not going to sell better than any number of models sold for historicals (because after all, each player only field ONE), but the model's price is pretty consistent with other GW models, which was my point. IE - they aren't jacking up the price because the model has good rules, and it belongs to a faction that is undoubtedly popular with AoS fans. Also, it's not like Treeman Ancient, where you can field multiples, "justifying" a lower price.
And sorry, I disagree that it's a rip off. Something is priced correctly if the people who want it are willing to pay that price. It doesn't really matter what the rest of the world thinks of it... because they didn't want it anyways. It also doesn't matter if there are alternatives, if the people who want the item don't really want the alternatives
But anyhow, if you ARE right, and these are expensive models because there aren't many people buying them, then that's also not a ripoff, because if you want something that's a niche item, you'll always pay more.
There is lots of data if you LOOK for it GW produces a niche product. And I'm aware of more stores in the UK ( okay they only do mail order but still ) that only cater to this.
GW pay a pittance to produce each figure it's not like some guy in his garage knocking out a few hundred or thousand . Would you say Beats by Dr Dre is priced well?
Look I was going to stay quiet in this but seriously we get that you like GW we all do that's why we're here. They can still be overpriced for what they are.
toasteroven wrote: I'm sorry if my post got too off topic. I was just trying to relate how the rumors were making me feel about the hobby in general.
I do hope we see more of the sylvaneth again. There could be some more variety there, I think.
I think yours was definitely fine. I just hope we see something different soon, because the Sigmarites and Chaos is really getting dull now, and I'd like to see the direction they take some of the other races in.
He's fast. His wings just dont work from a miniature concept (rays of light cannot be done with plastic). The swirls are stupid.
My main problem with him is his pose. He's wielding THE STRONGEST WEAPON EVEEEERRRR... and it looks nothing like it. If there has ever been a miniature that would've deserved the "weapon straight up in the air" pose.. that's the one. His sceptar now looks as important than his hammer.
Jehan-reznor wrote: Ah Talys, i know you like GW a lot (and that is an understatement ) But even you should agree that for people, who are not infatuated with GW,that this is quite steep for a single figure that is not as massive as a Glokin or as big as Nagash.
For 80$ i'll could just get a 54mm knight with some swirly putty and i have my Prime.
If you are willing to pay that OK, but i think a lot of people will not.
Well, keep in mind that he's cheaper than Nagash (one tier lower). My point is just that his pricing is totally within expectations (who really thought he would be cheaper than $80? People were saying he'd be more than Nagash). If someone thinks Liberators, Paladins, Judicators, Cstellants and Celestants are worth buying at the prices those models are, those same people will believe that Prime is worth his price tag (surely, he has more model in him than 2 Castellants, right?)
For the people who think all the Sigmarites are overpriced and/or ugly, and don't feel Ghal Maraz is worth its cover price, I get it. But if we're to be honest, at no price would Prime be attractive anyways to these folks, so what does it matter to GW what these people's opinion of pricing should be? GW made Prime for the people who DO like Sigmarites (at their prices), and as long as those fans are cool with it, the product is priced correctly. Because nobody else is going to buy the model anyways. They see it as swirly putty with a $5 model, while someone else sees an angelic hero airborne with pretty awesome wings and the coolest base.
I'm not trying to convince anyone that this model is aesthetically beautiful, or, if anyone thinks the swirls are stupid, that they aren't. I'm only saying that it's a model that is perfectly aligned with the faction in aesthetic, technically complex as a plastic character model, and priced in line with similar GW Fantasy models. It also has really, really good rules.
I like the artistry, and as you say, a lot of GW stuff (not Chaos, and, actually not most of their Fantasy range). But at the end of the day, let's be done with Sigmar's Summer and gimme 30k, Tau, and other 40k goodies.
I honestly loathe these kinds of "fancy robe" things. All I can think of is when he's NOT flying that he's going to trip over all his nonsense robes. Don't get me wrong - there are PARTS of the model that look great. The wings in particular are very striking. While I'm not a huge fan of how chunky the Sigmarines are - I can see how some would like the aesthetic. (IMHO, GW lost a great opportunity here to make the Sigmarines more truescale... this would have made them look even more otherworldy compared to the stumpy heroic proportions of the rest of the range).
I find it kind of hilarious is that the flying Sigmarines are armed with non-reach hand weapons. To me this is idiotic... You'd think that they'd be armed with spears and pole arms to take advantage of superior mobility and to avoid the necessity of BEING ALMOST AT GROUND LEVEL TO HIT YOUR OPPONENTS. This makes the Sigmarine Storm-boss(tm) even more stupid looking in my opinion, because if he wants to keep his Storm-Robes(tm) dirt free, he can't hit anything with his Storm-Hammer(tm) and Storm-Rod(tm).
I realize that the intent was to have a swirling maelstrom of Cosmic Storm-Dust(tm), but even the sparkly paintwork can't hide the fact that its bulbous Citadel Fine-shape(tm) looks more akin to a giant swirling trail of sludge with some charm bracelet stuff lodged in it. Does he leave a trail of sparkly Storm-Dust behind him when he's not flying?
Another Citadel Fine-Design(tm) from the brilliant minds of Games Workshop Fine-Designers(tm).
H.B.M.C. wrote: I honestly don't mind the model, but the swirly bull gak beneath him is just horrible.
Yup. I get the impression that is there simply to make him look much bigger than he really is so the price can be increased to 'big model' levels.
This was a model that could have strayed from the standard sigmarine look, but didn't. Space Marines do have a bit of the same profile syndrom going on, but terminators, dreads and vehicles do add variety into an army. With these guys even the big bad has the exact same look, I think its lazy design myself. Or cost cutting. Or possibly both. Its a shame really.
Am I the only one to find the whole figure absolutely "fabulous"?
It reminds me of one of those Japanese enka drag queens in their traditional New Year's Eve show, whose costume elevates him on a tower of ribbons and sparkles.
Kilkrazy wrote: Am I the only one to find the whole figure absolutely "fabulous"?
It reminds me of one of those Japanese enka drag queens in their traditional New Year's Eve show, whose costume elevates him on a tower of ribbons and sparkles.
Rose petal pattern on his cape and sculpt a kimono on over his armor. Do eeeet now!
Kilkrazy wrote: Am I the only one to find the whole figure absolutely "fabulous"?
It reminds me of one of those Japanese enka drag queens in their traditional New Year's Eve show, whose costume elevates him on a tower of ribbons and sparkles.
Bull0 wrote: I
By the way guys - Yodhrin doesn't like AoS. Just in case you hadn't got that by now.
And this is problem why exactly?
I don't like it either, much for the same reasons; but I'm still curious to see what they're doing to this world I once very much loved if we're gonna go down the "Whatcha doin' in this thread if you don't like AoS!" .
If I came into every thread about Privateer Press and stated that "Well I suppose if you like it you like it, no accounting for taste"--I'd have people accusing me of trolling.
That's what Bull0 is likely referring to. There's a way to express the sentiment of "I don't like it but if you like it that's fine", and making what could be construed as personal attacks is not it.
Yeah, that's basically it. The horse is dead, the cat o'nine tails can safely be stowed away for now. Keeping an eye on what's going on doesn't have to mean gaking on everything incessantly nor doing it in such a condescending, insulting sort of way. It was really quite a light jab though, to say "we get it, you hate it". Could've gone harder, really.
I can't help it if you're so oversensitive that a commonly used phrase which in the context of discussing taste is the equivalent of a shrug comes off to you as "gaking on everything incessantly...in a condescending, insulting sort of way".
And as for "gaking on everything incessantly" - until the mods tell me I've broken the rules, or that only certain opinions on the quality of AoS releases are allowed on this forum, I will continue to discuss and opine on each individual AoS release as often as I see fit and on whatever criteria I choose, not on the basis of whatever frequency or issue you believe is appropriate. If you don't care for my views, ignore them; if you don't even want to read them, use the forum's ignore feature. For the record, if I have "gak" on an AoS release, it's because I dislike it specifically and on its own merits, not because of my total lack of interest in the "rules" of the "game" itself nor because of my disappointment in GW for trashing the Fantasy setting; when GW release an AoS kit I like and see a use for, I will buy it happily, as I did with the Bloodreavers from both the starter set(thank you bitz retailers) and the multipart box.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Swas, you said other companies make plain models (boring models by my standards) because making something like this was stupid. That's pretty ridiculous. GW gets away with a lot of terrible behavior because they are one of the few companies that actually does produce minis that aren't plain, safe and boring, in plastic.
Now, I agree the price is wayyyyy too high for the Celestant Prime, but I'm very happy that GW still makes fun miniatures, even if I won't buy them. Who else is even trying to do that in plastic?
No because something like this isn't going to sell very well was my reasoning. I said that because he seems to think other companies can't. Im not annoyed they make them, im more annoyed at the price and then the people who try pull it off like that price is reasonable. Other than that I agree to an extent with what you say yea.
What reason besides the price makes you think this model wouldn't sell? I believe that is where the disagreement lies.
Other companies don't make boring models though, not at all.
Perry, Victrix, Warlord, and Gripping Beast would like to have a long, monotone word with you.
Well its not on the top of my list or anything like it ( probably will never buy it tbh), but its a decent model and quite fitting to AoS new faction.
As for prices I believe that with AoS the "Army" got replaced by the " Warband" I mean anyone with those 30 or 40 models regiments will split those in 3 or 4 groups and have the bulk of his AoS faction done.
What I'm trying to say here is that armies got downsized so much that the price of models will surely rise.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Swas, you said other companies make plain models (boring models by my standards) because making something like this was stupid. That's pretty ridiculous. GW gets away with a lot of terrible behavior because they are one of the few companies that actually does produce minis that aren't plain, safe and boring, in plastic.
Now, I agree the price is wayyyyy too high for the Celestant Prime, but I'm very happy that GW still makes fun miniatures, even if I won't buy them. Who else is even trying to do that in plastic?
No because something like this isn't going to sell very well was my reasoning. I said that because he seems to think other companies can't. Im not annoyed they make them, im more annoyed at the price and then the people who try pull it off like that price is reasonable. Other than that I agree to an extent with what you say yea.
What reason besides the price makes you think this model wouldn't sell? I believe that is where the disagreement lies.
who
Because of the narrow range of possible sales targets. The venn diagram of people who will buy it is either painters like it (and will likely buy only one) and people who like AoS. play Sigmarines, like the model and can justify the expense (and again, may only buy a single one as a general - I suppose with non-existent army construction rules there is room for the possiblity for more, unless they're unique?)
So we're potentially looking at a veritable set of Russian Dolls of niches within niches, each step of which will narrow the potential pool of purchasers.
Other companies don't make boring models though, not at all.
Perry, Victrix, Warlord, and Gripping Beast would like to have a long, monotone word with you.
Starting to argue aesthetics is the path to madness, but the fact remains that 'monotone' British WW2 infantry have a multitude of applications, and therefore a much wider pool of potential purchasers.
Kilkrazy wrote: Am I the only one to find the whole figure absolutely "fabulous"?
It reminds me of one of those Japanese enka drag queens in their traditional New Year's Eve show, whose costume elevates him on a tower of ribbons and sparkles.
You are not. However, I do like some fabulous god-warriors in my armies; the fancier the hats, the more likely I am to buy them. Feathers are a plus.
I use Dark Angels and Sanguinary Guard for my space marines. And now I can add some Stormcast Eternals. It's raining supermen. Hallelujah!
Like everything GW does, I think this just goes back to 80's music, where the toughest guys were the ones with eye liner, scarves, spandex and that hair.
Because of the narrow range of possible sales targets. The venn diagram of people who will buy it is either painters like it (and will likely buy only one) and people who like AoS. play Sigmarines, like the model and can justify the expense (and again, may only buy a single one as a general - I suppose with non-existent army construction rules there is room for the possiblity for more, unless they're unique?)
We got the rules for the Celestant-Prime the other day.
Spoiler:
He has no Command Ability(which makes him less than ideal as a General), starts the game off of the board, and is limited to one per army.
For all intents and purposes, this guy will be the equivalent of a Greater Daemon for a Stormcast player--or any kind of Order player for that matter, provided people are using the Realm of Fire rules--which make it so that Order or Destruction players can at any point essentially "pray for Sigmar's Deliverance" and roll a number of D6 equal to the turn number. Any 3+ allows the Order/Destruction player to place a Stormcast Eternal unit--but only one Hero or Monster.
MacMuckles wrote: Is this Prime going to be the last AoS release for the time being or is there still more? September is approaching fast and rumours said either Tau or Tzeentch, yeah?
At this point, who knows? Though we have got some idea of the near future releases. Air brush paints, a 30K era game (which we've seen sprues for)
Original rumours said AoS would see releases through to October which is when 40k gets a release. Some say its tau but cant say I care either way. After October gw will just do releases as and when. Stormcast and chaos plus whatever repacks are rolling out until them. Someone specified stormcast and khorne will see more releases til middle of September which suggests that the last few weeks of September will see a different force which should be tzeentch but could be something else entirely
Because of the narrow range of possible sales targets. The venn diagram of people who will buy it is either painters like it (and will likely buy only one) and people who like AoS. play Sigmarines, like the model and can justify the expense (and again, may only buy a single one as a general - I suppose with non-existent army construction rules there is room for the possiblity for more, unless they're unique?)
We got the rules for the Celestant-Prime the other day.
Spoiler:
He has no Command Ability(which makes him less than ideal as a General), starts the game off of the board, and is limited to one per army.
For all intents and purposes, this guy will be the equivalent of a Greater Daemon for a Stormcast player--or any kind of Order player for that matter, provided people are using the Realm of Fire rules--which make it so that Order or Destruction players can at any point essentially "pray for Sigmar's Deliverance" and roll a number of D6 equal to the turn number. Any 3+ allows the Order/Destruction player to place a Stormcast Eternal unit--but only one Hero or Monster.
You're being too literal, plus you're speaking to someone so disinterested I've not even bothered to read the free rules, so I've no real clue what you're on about.
Would "centre piece" make it clearer what i meant?
Areal, you are arguing against making heroes in general and not this guy in specific. If his price wasn't so ridiculous, he would be a great base for conversions. Companies like Wyrd do alright producing even more niche minis for much smaller customer bases, and while their prices are high, they aren't this high. If the Celestant Prime cost only as much as Izamu the Armor, people would buy multiples just for conversions, parts, color schemes, or whatever. The only part of this mini that's a bad idea is the price...and maybe the blue swirling meatball rain.
I was basically agreeing with what you're saying. The Celestant-Prime isn't going to be a "must have" purchase for a brand new player or anything like that, IMO.
He'll be a purchase that someone gets to eventually.
Well, like I said Az, Celestant Prime is squarely targeted at people who want, like and buy Sigmarites. Within that context, I don't think the price is an issue (if you'll pay $40 for Celestant, you'll certainly pay $80 for Celestant Prime).
If you don't think there's a market that's large enough to support Sigmarites, perhaps you are right, though I suspect that it has a lot of the same draws as space marines (superhuman knights in armor), and will sell better than, say, Empire models within the same period in recent years, or even Brettonians in years past. In absolute numbers, if you're right, and nobody (not absolutely nobody, but such a tiny number that it's insignificant) wants them, eventually, GW will squat them.
If it's like what Bob's saying, and you're arguing against character models -- well, I don't think this is what you're saying, but that position is not supportable by evidence, as most scifi/fantasy wargame companies charge more for their generals, that don't sell a lot of units compared to troops, and people pay for them, whether to have them on a shelf or to field them.
Well, keep in mind that he's cheaper than Nagash (one tier lower). My point is just that his pricing is totally within expectations (who really thought he would be cheaper than $80? People were saying he'd be more than Nagash).
I would have. Unless I'm missing how big he is, I wouldnt have expected him to cost more than something like the Thudertusk or Coven Throne, which are what, like $60? Maybe it's been a while since I looked at the cost of GW's big kits. He's a nice enough model, but I think a lot of that has to do with the really bang up paint job. Those magic swirls will look a lot less amazing with your average paint job.
$80 buys this from Mierce, which is in resin and is, IMO a more detailed sculpt.
Talys wrote: Well, like I said Az, Celestant Prime is squarely targeted at people who want, like and buy Sigmarites. Within that context, I don't think the price is an issue (if you'll pay $40 for Celestant, you'll certainly pay $80 for Celestant Prime).
And like Swas says that probably isn't all that many people!
Talys wrote: Well, like I said Az, Celestant Prime is squarely targeted at people who want, like and buy Sigmarites. Within that context, I don't think the price is an issue (if you'll pay $40 for Celestant, you'll certainly pay $80 for Celestant Prime).
And like Swas says that probably isn't all that many people!
That's not hard to grasp is it?
Is it?
No, it's not. and I said that in the paragraph that you didn't quote. Either it will draw people who like that kind of thing (hey, space marines sell, right?), or it won't and GW will squat it. I also said, they will probably sell better than Empire did in the last few years.
Well, keep in mind that he's cheaper than Nagash (one tier lower). My point is just that his pricing is totally within expectations (who really thought he would be cheaper than $80? People were saying he'd be more than Nagash).
I would have. Unless I'm missing how big he is, I wouldnt have expected him to cost more than something like the Thudertusk or Coven Throne, which are what, like $60? Maybe it's been a while since I looked at the cost of GW's big kits. He's a nice enough model, but I think a lot of that has to do with the really bang up paint job. Those magic swirls will look a lot less amazing with your average paint job.
$80 buys this from Mierce, which is in resin and is, IMO a more detailed sculpt.
@Az - The subject should be news & rumors. I suggest we stick to it; please spoiler large graphics that don't have anything to do with the subject.
If you think the new model is overly expensive, say so; just expect that people who disagree will also say so. No need to get hostile about it.
To get back to that subject -- personally, I think Celestant Prime will be no less popular than Nagash, Treeman, Mortarch, or any of those models and sell in similar or slightly higher volumes. I'm not sure what your experience is in your area, but Sigmarites and Chaos are by far the two most popular AoS factions here.
Well, keep in mind that he's cheaper than Nagash (one tier lower). My point is just that his pricing is totally within expectations (who really thought he would be cheaper than $80? People were saying he'd be more than Nagash).
I would have. Unless I'm missing how big he is, I wouldnt have expected him to cost more than something like the Thudertusk or Coven Throne, which are what, like $60? Maybe it's been a while since I looked at the cost of GW's big kits. He's a nice enough model, but I think a lot of that has to do with the really bang up paint job. Those magic swirls will look a lot less amazing with your average paint job.
$80 buys this from Mierce, which is in resin and is, IMO a more detailed sculpt.
Spoiler:
That's really nice.
I wonder what uk shipping is like
It is, that guy is massive (120mm base)!
Inside the UK, they offer free shipping if you spend £30 or more, outside the UK its free if you spend £80 or more. Otherwise its £3 in the UK and £8 outside.
Well, keep in mind that he's cheaper than Nagash (one tier lower). My point is just that his pricing is totally within expectations (who really thought he would be cheaper than $80? People were saying he'd be more than Nagash).
I would have. Unless I'm missing how big he is, I wouldnt have expected him to cost more than something like the Thudertusk or Coven Throne, which are what, like $60? Maybe it's been a while since I looked at the cost of GW's big kits. He's a nice enough model, but I think a lot of that has to do with the really bang up paint job. Those magic swirls will look a lot less amazing with your average paint job.
$80 buys this from Mierce, which is in resin and is, IMO a more detailed sculpt.
Instead of making the Celestant Prime(tm) an upscaled Sigmarine... I truly think that GW squandered a lot of possibilities with the line by making them all look so god(emperor)damn the same.
Would it have killed them to make their "greater demon" model more classically inspired instead of just another automaton in a gold suit?
Please stay on-topic, per Rule Number Two. It is certainly alright to post your opinions about a new release (this is a discussion forum; not a news feed), including posting pictures of models to compare/contrast against new releases. But please use spoiler tags for such pics, in consideration of other people who are browsing this thread for images of the new releases. Thanks!
To get back to that subject -- personally, I think Celestant Prime will be no less popular than Nagash, Treeman, Mortarch, or any of those models and sell in similar or slightly higher volumes. I'm not sure what your experience is in your area, but Sigmarites and Chaos are by far the two most popular AoS factions here.
I think Nagash was popular mostly because he is such a fabled character and at the time, he was so different from much of what had been released previously. A year has gone by since then and I think the OTT style and size isn't as exciting or jaw-dropping as it was. I like some aspects of this guy, but I can't get past the fact that he is just hovering there and has no real motion to him. I guess my point is, I don't see him selling to the level Nagash did (though I couldn't really tell you what sales were like for Nagash so who knows). Personally, I could see myself paying for Nagash because of the lore behind him, not about the same amount for random big-guy number 3.
As every release continues to roll out for this, I feel pushed further and further away from this game. I've played about 8 games of it and only one was fun and interesting. The rest just kind of devolved into running at each other and rolling a ton of dice and looking back at a separate page of rules for every single thing on the table. Was hard to get into a real groove with it. I bought the starter because the price was right and I already had Empire which I figured I could mix-and-match in with the Stormcasts and Skaven that I could use along with the Chaos. But, all the new stuff is priced past a point I feel comfortable investing in and seeing that I would have to spend $74 every other month to get 8 scenarios to make the game playable, it just isn't jiving with my pocket book.
Yet, I keep hanging out here, hoping to see something that will draw me back in and make this game work in my mind. It is like those old romance movies - I'm waiting for my long lost lover to come back, hoping that it wasn't completely destroyed when the planet exploded...
Talys wrote: personally, I think Celestant Prime will be no less popular than Nagash, Treeman, Mortarch, or any of those models and sell in similar or slightly higher volumes. I'm not sure what your experience is in your area, but Sigmarites and Chaos are by far the two most popular AoS factions here.
My personal take would be that it looks much worse than any of the models you mention - it doesn't hold a candle to Nagash, a model I personally wasn't sure about but which certainly had style.
As for Sigmarites and Chaos being the most popular AoS factions - of course, they're the only ones with new models for AoS!
My personal take would be that it looks much worse than any of the models you mention - it doesn't hold a candle to Nagash, a model I personally wasn't sure about but which certainly had style.
As for Sigmarites and Chaos being the most popular AoS factions - of course, they're the only ones with new models for AoS!
Well, yeah, but that doesn't mean you can't play Wood Elves (Sylvaneth) or Skaven. I actually forgot Skaven -- they seem to be very popular too.
Trailing robes and ribbons raising him to the same level would have looked a thousand times better than the swirly bits, to me. Rather than looking like he's floating along, it would look like he's flying up to that level to face off against something in combat. Right now the bits look like they're just to add unnecessary volume.
And a 50-60 dollar price tag, but that's semantics.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Ordered my Khornetress. 3 Gates and 4 Overlord Bastions.
We have both been banging on about it since the first blurry images of it came out in the early days of AOS, the difference? You put your money where your mouth is. I expect a p and m blog on your work on it H.B.M.C...
All the bundles have been edited for price now and no longer offer any discount.
Shame too since I was going to buy the nurgle one for £95 since essentially you get a box of blightkings free.
OT - don't like the prime.
He's crowded with rubbish that isn't needed and it takes away from the model too much.
Far too static as well, needs some movement in him.
That and the price for him is laughable.
Il pass on this one I think and use the money not spent on him to add to buying a mumak (chaos war mammoth)
Jackal wrote: All the bundles have been edited for price now and no longer offer any discount.
Wow... GW really is allergic to success it seems. I thought they had at least turned a corner in regards to bundles after the Sylvaneth Warhost, but I guess they decided that sales are bad because then those sales will compete with sales of other products, and we can't have that.
Jackal wrote: All the bundles have been edited for price now and no longer offer any discount.
Wow... GW really is allergic to success it seems. I thought they had at least turned a corner in regards to bundles after the Sylvaneth Warhost, but I guess they decided that sales are bad because then those sales will compete with sales of other products, and we can't have that.
Things like the Sylvaneth Warhost are wildly different to the "one-click bundles".
If it has a box, is a combination of items and has a discount? That's intentional.
If it has no unique box, is a combination of items and has a discount? Not intentional.
Kanluwen wrote: Things like the Sylvaneth Warhost are wildly different to the "one-click bundles".
If it has a box, is a combination of items and has a discount? That's intentional.
If it has no unique box, is a combination of items and has a discount? Not intentional.
Yeah, there are box sets which offer 20% or more in the way of discounts (note that most of these are also not web order, so you can get a full discount from your FLGS off of the discounted price!). Most of them represent some kind of formation (not all; eg the new space marine battle forces), and you can think of them kind of like a starter box. The "bundles" are simply there to uh... inspire you... to buy groups of items together.
Jackal wrote: All the bundles have been edited for price now and no longer offer any discount.
Wow... GW really is allergic to success it seems. I thought they had at least turned a corner in regards to bundles after the Sylvaneth Warhost, but I guess they decided that sales are bad because then those sales will compete with sales of other products, and we can't have that.
Things like the Sylvaneth Warhost are wildly different to the "one-click bundles".
If it has a box, is a combination of items and has a discount? That's intentional.
If it has no unique box, is a combination of items and has a discount? Not intentional.
I am aware that they didn't intend for a discount, what I am saying is that I was hoping they had changed policies and were intending to offer a discount, and that it is disappointing (on multiple levels) that such isn't the case.
As I said before, model is that ok, but the swirly stuff is a waste of plastic, might as well wait for a box of normal angel troops which will likely be cheaper and convert them into the prime, I was hoping for 6 wings like a seraphim some inhuman features etc
Will rather buy an angel squad and convert them.... :/ but at least he would make for a great add-on to a none stormcast force
They're ludicrously overpriced. A Dreadhold Keep is about the same size as the Imperial Bastion. One costs AUD$50. The other costs 250% more than that. It's absurd. It's fething insulting really - the prices are pants-on-head slowed.
Now, granted, I'm not paying full AUD retail (because I'm not an idiot), but I'd sure as hell be buying a lot more if the pricing matched that of planet strike rather than being double and a half+ the price.
I'm also still deciding on additional walls. I need 2, but I'm wondering about getting four. Sadly GW fails at basic retail practices, so their "4 for the price of 4" deal just seems stupid.
ImAGeek wrote:I think yours was definitely fine. I just hope we see something different soon, because the Sigmarites and Chaos is really getting dull now, and I'd like to see the direction they take some of the other races in.
Given the only release so far has been repacking a unit from 2008-ish (I think?), I'm guessing "nowhere new".
RiTides wrote:As for Sigmarites and Chaos being the most popular AoS factions - of course, they're the only ones with new models for AoS!
ImAGeek wrote:I think yours was definitely fine. I just hope we see something different soon, because the Sigmarites and Chaos is really getting dull now, and I'd like to see the direction they take some of the other races in.
Given the only release so far has been repacking a unit from 2008-ish (I think?), I'm guessing "nowhere new".
RiTides wrote:As for Sigmarites and Chaos being the most popular AoS factions - of course, they're the only ones with new models for AoS!
Nu-uh, Skaven got totally new models!
Wait, no, bases. I meant bases.
Well, Skaven did technically get new models--during End Times.
Stormfiends, Thanquol+Boneripper, Verminlords, and the plastic clamshell Warlord and Grey Seer.
-Shrike- wrote: Wow... I knew H.B.M.C. had a terrain addiction, but... you could probably build a plastic city!
Already have one of those too. Cities of Death was a good time for me.
I really should take photos of all this stuff and put them up here. Basically none of it's painted, 'cause I both hate and cannot painting, but it'd be fun to show just how much stuff there is.
ImAGeek wrote:I think yours was definitely fine. I just hope we see something different soon, because the Sigmarites and Chaos is really getting dull now, and I'd like to see the direction they take some of the other races in.
Given the only release so far has been repacking a unit from 2008-ish (I think?), I'm guessing "nowhere new".
RiTides wrote:As for Sigmarites and Chaos being the most popular AoS factions - of course, they're the only ones with new models for AoS!
Nu-uh, Skaven got totally new models!
Wait, no, bases. I meant bases.
Well, Skaven did technically get new models--during End Times.
Stormfiends, Thanquol+Boneripper, Verminlords, and the plastic clamshell Warlord and Grey Seer.
Plus, I don't think Skaven needed that many new models. Their aesthetic seems to translate well to AOS as it is. I imagine we may see some changes we factions like High Elves, the Empire, and Lizardmen, but others (Beastmen, Skaven, Treemen, Ogres maybe?) should fit in well enough that a simple repackaging should suffice.
-Shrike- wrote: Wow... I knew H.B.M.C. had a terrain addiction, but... you could probably build a plastic city!
Already have one of those too. Cities of Death was a good time for me.
I really should take photos of all this stuff and put them up here. Basically none of it's painted, 'cause I both hate and cannot painting, but it'd be fun to show just how much stuff there is.
Wow.. so, what do you do, assemble, and play the terrain grey?
Incidentally, I saw it at the store yesterday, the little keep comes in a Bastion sized box, and the big keep with the wall comes in a thicker than bastion size box (and I think heavier), but the same footprint.
I never took it out of their box, since I had no intention of buying it, but I wanted to see how much stuff it comes with. The footprint of the box is the same as (imperial) bastion, and it has a tabbed opening at the top like Imperial Knight.
Spoiler:
@JohnnyHell - yeah, not a criticism by any means I've seen tons of grey legions too, just not usually tons of grey *terrain*.
-Shrike- wrote: Wow... I knew H.B.M.C. had a terrain addiction, but... you could probably build a plastic city!
Already have one of those too. Cities of Death was a good time for me.
I really should take photos of all this stuff and put them up here. Basically none of it's painted, 'cause I both hate and cannot painting, but it'd be fun to show just how much stuff there is.
HBMC's Grey Legion is infamous lol. "Grey and Proud!" is probably their battlecry lol.
bubber wrote: As there's no points value any more, what's the point of play testing?
All sorts of reasons. Even if you buy into the idea that the game isn't at all balanced anymore because points are gone (tip: there are loads of balanced games that don't have points systems, and WFB wasn't balanced with points anyway), GW want people to buy certain kits, so they make them powerful or necessary for army composition, etc. That right there is a reason for playtesting. Do we want to sell a lot of this? Buff it. Do we want people to be able to use this so they aren't gak-talking us online but we would rather they bought something new too? Nerf it and buff the new kit.
RoninXiC wrote: If thats the reason for playtesting, than every new release HAS to be stronger than the last one. Which obviously is not the case.
They eiter don't playtest or just roll a few dice in one or maybe two games.
They suck and failed miserably.
Nah, that's not true. You want some things to be powerful, some things to be less so, some things to be necessary to get bonuses or field legal armies, etc. It's a lot more complicated than "every new thing needs to be more powerful". You can only get away with so much of that before people catch on. You'd clearly be awful at this.
I mean, they don't do any playtesting, we know they don't, my point is there are reasons why it's a good idea beyond "so that we can decide how many points X is worth".
At the very least you want models to represent their relative power/role on the tabletop. If your lightly armored elven archers suck at shooting but work great as a tarpit melee unit then there's something wrong, points or no points.
Far be it for me to say what someone should do with their models, but terrain is really easy to paint quickly. If you don't care to do anything exceptional to it, you can simply spray paint it some color (like a dark grey), and drybrush it with a big drybrush (say, a lighter grey).. Even if you do nothing else, it will look reasonable. If you want to go the extra step, just take a big wash brush before the drybrush and use something like Agrax/Nuhln or AP Strong (or Dark) Shade.
It's essentially all you get out of prepainted prefabs (like battlefield in a box) anyhow, and it certainly looks decent on the table.
I am a bit like HBMC there I fear. I have a sizeable CSM army (now being adapted for 30k use), but very little of it is painted.
I dunno, I'd love to get it painted, but when I sit down with my paints and brushes something within me just snaps and I go back to wasting my time on Dakka instead.
bubber wrote: As there's no points value any more, what's the point of play testing?
All sorts of reasons. Even if you buy into the idea that the game isn't at all balanced anymore because points are gone (tip: there are loads of balanced games that don't have points systems, and WFB wasn't balanced with points anyway)
I'm curious as to what these balanced games are that require no points values. Are they 'pick and play' games like AoS, or more like board games, where each team is pre-set to a very specific degree. Seems like points (or whatever you term the denomination of a model's value and effectiveness in a game) are there solely for providing a game with a variety of different pieces with a means of making it fair to all players. Can you provide some examples of these games? I am genuinely interested in learning more about the concept of having games that can function without any structure like points. I don't personally think AoS has figured it out, but they've taken a crack at it, and that's cool. I hope they can figure out a balancing mechanism for the game that works, as I have always loved the concept of 'play with whatever you want', but I have yet to see it really work.
bubber wrote: As there's no points value any more, what's the point of play testing?
All sorts of reasons. Even if you buy into the idea that the game isn't at all balanced anymore because points are gone (tip: there are loads of balanced games that don't have points systems, and WFB wasn't balanced with points anyway)
I'm curious as to what these balanced games are that require no points values. Are they 'pick and play' games like AoS, or more like board games, where each team is pre-set to a very specific degree. Seems like points (or whatever you term the denomination of a model's value and effectiveness in a game) are there solely for providing a game with a variety of different pieces with a means of making it fair to all players. Can you provide some examples of these games? I am genuinely interested in learning more about the concept of having games that can function without any structure like points. I don't personally think AoS has figured it out, but they've taken a crack at it, and that's cool. I hope they can figure out a balancing mechanism for the game that works, as I have always loved the concept of 'play with whatever you want', but I have yet to see it really work.
Some of us have figured it out. Basically what needs to happen for a 'Balanced Game' is both players need to talk to each other before the game and work out what they both want for the game and then put what looks like a balanced force on the table to the both of them. You also have to take in account things terrain and scenario when doing such.
bubber wrote: As there's no points value any more, what's the point of play testing?
All sorts of reasons. Even if you buy into the idea that the game isn't at all balanced anymore because points are gone (tip: there are loads of balanced games that don't have points systems, and WFB wasn't balanced with points anyway)
I'm curious as to what these balanced games are that require no points values. Are they 'pick and play' games like AoS, or more like board games, where each team is pre-set to a very specific degree. Seems like points (or whatever you term the denomination of a model's value and effectiveness in a game) are there solely for providing a game with a variety of different pieces with a means of making it fair to all players. Can you provide some examples of these games? I am genuinely interested in learning more about the concept of having games that can function without any structure like points. I don't personally think AoS has figured it out, but they've taken a crack at it, and that's cool. I hope they can figure out a balancing mechanism for the game that works, as I have always loved the concept of 'play with whatever you want', but I have yet to see it really work.
In my experience with Black Powder there are plenty reasons why it works well:
They give examples of balanced armies They have a formula to make your own points (so you can make custom units) They have battle examples to give you an idea of scenarios to play You can look into a history book and get ideas from there They also have a structure in the way two armies are built. They still need commanders and a chain of command etc which means some thought needs to be put into a cohesive force, they also have recommended units per commander.
AOS has nothing of the above. They merely say space is the limit, or 100 models is recommended. Which is not much to go off, which is why, in my opinion, so many people are trying to find a way to balance or play this game. Because AOS has no tools to help them out. For a "Scenario" driven game it is pretty poor really, containing little (so far) in the way of scenarios.
Kanluwen wrote: Have you read the book that comes with the Age of Sigmar box?
Because it actually gives two examples of balanced armies. One for Stormcast, and one for Bloodbound.
The Warscroll Battalions are also pretty balanced and essentially armies in their own rights.
Unlike other games having formations with a select few units also sounds pretty bland for a sand box game style take what you want game. I mean those examples are all well and good... if you own those models or want to take them. The ones in black powder have a whole section dedicated with how to set up a game and examples of scenarios and armies. With rules for making your own troops too.
AOS has some warscrolls which feature more than 1 unit on them, which is ok if you happen to have the models. They also have a couple of scenarios spread across some expensive books. What AOS needed was a system to create your own warscroll battalions (AKA armies or forces) and a system for creating a wide variety of scenarios. Obviously that was a little hard to do in their lunch break.
Anpu42 wrote: Basically what needs to happen for a 'Balanced Game' is both players need to talk to each other before the game and work out what they both want for the game and then put what looks like a balanced force on the table to the both of them. You also have to take in account things terrain and scenario when doing such.
Which means the game isn't balanced. If you have to balance it yourselves before every game, the game isn't balanced.
Anpu42 wrote: Basically what needs to happen for a 'Balanced Game' is both players need to talk to each other before the game and work out what they both want for the game and then put what looks like a balanced force on the table to the both of them. You also have to take in account things terrain and scenario when doing such.
Which means the game isn't balanced. If you have to balance it yourselves before every game, the game isn't balanced.
Its also very difficult to do it that way. Until you actually play them, you don't really have any idea how powerful any of the new units are (or any of the legacy army units really), so its all guesswork anyway.
Not to mention everyone's opinion about what's "balanced" is going to differ. I could spend all day trying to make a list that "feels" balanced to me, but it won't make a difference to someone who's convinced themselves that my faction is inherently broken and believes they can't be balanced no matter how you run them.
Oddly enough I'm the same way, I seem to have more fun building models than I do painting them. It's fun watching the thing come together and start to take shape, but since I can't paint for gak I feel like I've ruined it once paint goes on.
I feel you guys on it being more fun building than painting.
I LOVE building the stuff. I would gladly build other people's models just for the sheer joy of gluing things (including my fingers quite often) together.
This is one area I really like about modern GW. Their kits go together quite nicely.
I attribute the love of model building to a good 20+ year history of Gundam building though, and countless other military kits even before that.
I can see myself buying that new Prime model just for the sheer curiosity of seeing how it all goes together. Much like every other big ticket centerpiece End Times kit I bought.
I'm in the same boat as all of you. Building the figure is definitely the most entertaining part for me. Once a figure is built I honestly have no desire to paint it. I've taken to painting parts on the sprue now to avoid this problem and when all parts are painted to a decent quality I get the "reward" of putting it together
Anpu42 wrote: Basically what needs to happen for a 'Balanced Game' is both players need to talk to each other before the game and work out what they both want for the game and then put what looks like a balanced force on the table to the both of them. You also have to take in account things terrain and scenario when doing such.
Which means the game isn't balanced. If you have to balance it yourselves before every game, the game isn't balanced.
Its also very difficult to do it that way. Until you actually play them, you don't really have any idea how powerful any of the new units are (or any of the legacy army units really), so its all guesswork anyway.
This is what the games tells you to do though.
>You find player
>You two spend a few moments talking about what you both want to do.
>If you two are on the same page of thought you put Terrain and Models on the table and play.
>If you can't or won't come to an agreement you move on.
This can be applied to both AoS/Non-Point System and WH40k/Point System.
Anpu42 wrote: Basically what needs to happen for a 'Balanced Game' is both players need to talk to each other before the game and work out what they both want for the game and then put what looks like a balanced force on the table to the both of them. You also have to take in account things terrain and scenario when doing such.
Which means the game isn't balanced. If you have to balance it yourselves before every game, the game isn't balanced.
Its also very difficult to do it that way. Until you actually play them, you don't really have any idea how powerful any of the new units are (or any of the legacy army units really), so its all guesswork anyway.
This is what the games tells you to do though.
>You find player
>You two spend a few moments talking about what you both want to do.
>If you two are on the same page of thought you put Terrain and Models on the table and play.
>If you can't or won't come to an agreement you move on.
This can be applied to both AoS/Non-Point System and WH40k/Point System.
But it's harder to convey what you want and harder to get on the same page. In AoS, everyone has their own idea of what a balanced game is. Player A might tailor a list based on a limited number of wounds. Player B might tailor his list around a set number of models. It's fine if Player A only plays against like-minded players who balance based on wounds and it's groovy if Player B plays with plays with players who agree on a model limit as their balance mechanism. But problems arise if Player A and Player B want to play; whose balancing mechanism will we use? Model equality sounds groovy until Player A drops down 20 clanrats to face off against 20 Sigmarines. Wounds are another reasonable possibility until one Player places down a bunch of greater daemons that match the wounds of a force of a force of Empire Statetroopers. Back in the day it was as simple as saying "Want to play a 1000 point game, what do ya say?" Your opponent might agree or decline and that was that. AoS requires players to start from scratch, create the balancing mechanism and hammer out a contract. When points were around, the contract was already there and all it needed was an agreement to play. Points weren't perfect but it was a universal system that players understood and could build around. Now, every time someone looks for a game they have to pray to Sigmar that they can figure out the details in under 10 minutes.
Sprue pics for Celestant Prime folks. Ghal Maraz is NOT a small weapon lol. Also looks like you have an option on posing cause there's 2 of Ghal Maraz there. The "Come at me bro" pose or the graceful descent pose.
Anpu42 wrote: Basically what needs to happen for a 'Balanced Game' is both players need to talk to each other before the game and work out what they both want for the game and then put what looks like a balanced force on the table to the both of them. You also have to take in account things terrain and scenario when doing such.
Which means the game isn't balanced. If you have to balance it yourselves before every game, the game isn't balanced.
Its also very difficult to do it that way. Until you actually play them, you don't really have any idea how powerful any of the new units are (or any of the legacy army units really), so its all guesswork anyway.
This is what the games tells you to do though.
>You find player
>You two spend a few moments talking about what you both want to do.
>If you two are on the same page of thought you put Terrain and Models on the table and play.
>If you can't or won't come to an agreement you move on.
This can be applied to both AoS/Non-Point System and WH40k/Point System.
But it's harder to convey what you want and harder to get on the same page. In AoS, everyone has their own idea of what a balanced game is. Player A might tailor a list based on a limited number of wounds. Player B might tailor his list around a set number of models. It's fine if Player A only plays against like-minded players who balance based on wounds and it's groovy if Player B plays with plays with players who agree on a model limit as their balance mechanism. But problems arise if Player A and Player B want to play; whose balancing mechanism will we use? Model equality sounds groovy until Player A drops down 20 clanrats to face off against 20 Sigmarines. Wounds are another reasonable possibility until one Player places down a bunch of greater daemons that match the wounds of a force of a force of Empire Statetroopers. Back in the day it was as simple as saying "Want to play a 1000 point game, what do ya say?" Your opponent might agree or decline and that was that. AoS requires players to start from scratch, create the balancing mechanism and hammer out a contract. When points were around, the contract was already there and all it needed was an agreement to play. Points weren't perfect but it was a universal system that players understood and could build around. Now, every time someone looks for a game they have to pray to Sigmar that they can figure out the details in under 10 minutes.
If I can not come to some level of agreement in 10 minutes that to me is a Red Flag that I don't want to play with that guy in the first place and he should not be playing me. Points have nothing to do with that, I have seen 20 Arguments of games based on Points, what units were aloud and how much terrain to be used.
Of course I might be tainted by the concept that I have that both players most of the time seem to want a Fun Game first and that both sides will be willing to do what it takes to have a fun game.
MacMuckles wrote: I'm glad the magic energy pieces are separate from the legs.
Looks like you'd have to put them on to be honest. The bits that flow from the cape to the base would be flimsy if you didn't have the energy spiralling around him.
very nice sprue breakdown...
it looks like he can easily be built without the spirals, and the two options for the arms is cool...
the wings are gorgeous!!!
i could definitely see myself painting this guy...
Anpu42 wrote: Basically what needs to happen for a 'Balanced Game' is both players need to talk to each other before the game and work out what they both want for the game and then put what looks like a balanced force on the table to the both of them. You also have to take in account things terrain and scenario when doing such.
Which means the game isn't balanced. If you have to balance it yourselves before every game, the game isn't balanced.
Its also very difficult to do it that way. Until you actually play them, you don't really have any idea how powerful any of the new units are (or any of the legacy army units really), so its all guesswork anyway.
This is what the games tells you to do though.
>You find player
>You two spend a few moments talking about what you both want to do.
>If you two are on the same page of thought you put Terrain and Models on the table and play.
>If you can't or won't come to an agreement you move on.
This can be applied to both AoS/Non-Point System and WH40k/Point System.
But it's harder to convey what you want and harder to get on the same page. In AoS, everyone has their own idea of what a balanced game is. Player A might tailor a list based on a limited number of wounds. Player B might tailor his list around a set number of models. It's fine if Player A only plays against like-minded players who balance based on wounds and it's groovy if Player B plays with plays with players who agree on a model limit as their balance mechanism. But problems arise if Player A and Player B want to play; whose balancing mechanism will we use? Model equality sounds groovy until Player A drops down 20 clanrats to face off against 20 Sigmarines. Wounds are another reasonable possibility until one Player places down a bunch of greater daemons that match the wounds of a force of a force of Empire Statetroopers. Back in the day it was as simple as saying "Want to play a 1000 point game, what do ya say?" Your opponent might agree or decline and that was that. AoS requires players to start from scratch, create the balancing mechanism and hammer out a contract. When points were around, the contract was already there and all it needed was an agreement to play. Points weren't perfect but it was a universal system that players understood and could build around. Now, every time someone looks for a game they have to pray to Sigmar that they can figure out the details in under 10 minutes.
If I can not come to some level of agreement in 10 minutes that to me is a Red Flag that I don't want to play with that guy in the first place and he should not be playing me. Points have nothing to do with that, I have seen 20 Arguments of games based on Points, what units were aloud and how much terrain to be used.
Of course I might be tainted by the concept that I have that both players most of the time seem to want a Fun Game first and that both sides will be willing to do what it takes to have a fun game.
I see what you're saying, but it's less work when there is an established system of balance that all players of the system will be familiar with. With points, all we have to set is the number of points and then agree if we'll go through with the game. Without a standardized limiter, players have to work out whether or not the game is "fair" and if it will be fun. I don't want to agree on what our balancing mechanism is and hope it works out, I want to pit roughly equal forces against one another using a mechanism designed a professional team. The balancing shouldn't be left to me and another player, it should already be in place to allow us to play a game so that we don't have to design one.
MacMuckles wrote: I'm glad the magic energy pieces are separate from the legs.
Looks like you'd have to put them on to be honest. The bits that flow from the cape to the base would be flimsy if you didn't have the energy spiralling around him.
Nothing a small rock from the local park can't handle! I might leave the cape off if I do go through with this purchase, it just looks like something that would drag on the floor and tear, get dirty and trip up our Angelic Construct if he ever chose to walk around
Anpu42 wrote: Basically what needs to happen for a 'Balanced Game' is both players need to talk to each other before the game and work out what they both want for the game and then put what looks like a balanced force on the table to the both of them. You also have to take in account things terrain and scenario when doing such.
Which means the game isn't balanced. If you have to balance it yourselves before every game, the game isn't balanced.
Its also very difficult to do it that way. Until you actually play them, you don't really have any idea how powerful any of the new units are (or any of the legacy army units really), so its all guesswork anyway.
This is what the games tells you to do though.
>You find player
>You two spend a few moments talking about what you both want to do.
>If you two are on the same page of thought you put Terrain and Models on the table and play.
>If you can't or won't come to an agreement you move on.
This can be applied to both AoS/Non-Point System and WH40k/Point System.
But it's harder to convey what you want and harder to get on the same page. In AoS, everyone has their own idea of what a balanced game is. Player A might tailor a list based on a limited number of wounds. Player B might tailor his list around a set number of models. It's fine if Player A only plays against like-minded players who balance based on wounds and it's groovy if Player B plays with plays with players who agree on a model limit as their balance mechanism. But problems arise if Player A and Player B want to play; whose balancing mechanism will we use? Model equality sounds groovy until Player A drops down 20 clanrats to face off against 20 Sigmarines. Wounds are another reasonable possibility until one Player places down a bunch of greater daemons that match the wounds of a force of a force of Empire Statetroopers. Back in the day it was as simple as saying "Want to play a 1000 point game, what do ya say?" Your opponent might agree or decline and that was that. AoS requires players to start from scratch, create the balancing mechanism and hammer out a contract. When points were around, the contract was already there and all it needed was an agreement to play. Points weren't perfect but it was a universal system that players understood and could build around. Now, every time someone looks for a game they have to pray to Sigmar that they can figure out the details in under 10 minutes.
If I can not come to some level of agreement in 10 minutes that to me is a Red Flag that I don't want to play with that guy in the first place and he should not be playing me. Points have nothing to do with that, I have seen 20 Arguments of games based on Points, what units were aloud and how much terrain to be used.
Of course I might be tainted by the concept that I have that both players most of the time seem to want a Fun Game first and that both sides will be willing to do what it takes to have a fun game.
I see what you're saying, but it's less work when there is an established system of balance that all players of the system will be familiar with. With points, all we have to set is the number of points and then agree if we'll go through with the game. Without a standardized limiter, players have to work out whether or not the game is "fair" and if it will be fun. I don't want to agree on what our balancing mechanism is and hope it works out, I want to pit roughly equal forces against one another using a mechanism designed a professional team. The balancing shouldn't be left to me and another player, it should already be in place to allow us to play a game so that we don't have to design one.
MacMuckles wrote: I'm glad the magic energy pieces are separate from the legs.
Looks like you'd have to put them on to be honest. The bits that flow from the cape to the base would be flimsy if you didn't have the energy spiralling around him.
Nothing a small rock from the local park can't handle! I might leave the cape off if I do go through with this purchase, it just looks like something that would drag on the floor and tear, get dirty and trip up our Angelic Construct if he ever chose to walk around
Torn between the CP. Parts of it I love, parts of it I dont.
Like many GW models I think a better paint job would help.
Strangely his rules arent compltely OP. Sure whatever he hits will go down but unless you reserve him for a few rounds, he has a measily 2 attacks with a 33% chance to miss with them.
The comet shooting attack is really meh at best.
I thought he'd be a wrecking machine but am pleasantly surprised.
angelofvengeance wrote: I might leave the cape off if I do go through with this purchase, it just looks like something that would drag on the floor and tear, get dirty and trip up our Angelic Construct if he ever chose to walk around
jah-joshua wrote: very nice sprue breakdown...
it looks like he can easily be built without the spirals, and the two options for the arms is cool...
the wings are gorgeous!!!
i could definitely see myself painting this guy...
thanks for sharing those pics, aov...
cheers
jah
The white dwarf has a pic of prime in 3 subassemblies, and prime is free-standing with 3 ribbons holding him up, and the swirls totally separate.
Looking at the sprue, I am even further struck by the thought that its a whole lot of swirly stuff and flowy cloak with very little main body to justify the price tag.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Looking at the sprue, I am even further struck by the thought that its a whole lot of swirly stuff and flowy cloak with very little main body to justify the price tag.
It's like what they're doing with the forge world character series, only even more unreasonable.
angelofvengeance wrote: I might leave the cape off if I do go through with this purchase, it just looks like something that would drag on the floor and tear, get dirty and trip up our Angelic Construct if he ever chose to walk around
Nothing enough cool can't handle
Spoiler:
Watched that film last night - really enjoyed and she was great
angelofvengeance wrote: I might leave the cape off if I do go through with this purchase, it just looks like something that would drag on the floor and tear, get dirty and trip up our Angelic Construct if he ever chose to walk around
Nothing enough cool can't handle
Spoiler:
Watched that film last night - really enjoyed and she was great
cool wins over reality
That was my post (the first bit about it getting dirty) I can understand the coolness factor and leaving it on. What's that gif from, btw?
angelofvengeance wrote: Sprue pics for Celestant Prime folks. Ghal Maraz is NOT a small weapon lol. Also looks like you have an option on posing cause there's 2 of Ghal Maraz there. The "Come at me bro" pose or the graceful descent pose.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
....
....
....
$134 for a 3 frame character? And here I though $60 for 2 was absurd.
angelofvengeance wrote: I might leave the cape off if I do go through with this purchase, it just looks like something that would drag on the floor and tear, get dirty and trip up our Angelic Construct if he ever chose to walk around
Nothing enough cool can't handle
Spoiler:
Watched that film last night - really enjoyed and she was great
cool wins over reality
That was my post (the first bit about it getting dirty) I can understand the coolness factor and leaving it on. What's that gif from, btw?
New Mission Impossible film - she is very cool in it
MWHistorian wrote: $80 bucks? Are they friggin' insane?
Also, he looks familiar....
This...
Spoiler:
Plus...
Spoiler:
Equals...
Spoiler:
Again, technical brilliance, short on imagination.
I don't know why you would compare with those miniatures specifically, it has nothing in common with the Warmachine one aside from the pose, which has been a cliche in comics/anime etc since I don't know, the 70s or so?
Edit: actually if I could take I guess I'd say that pose has its origins in Jesus on the cross, so more like 2000 years old.
@MWHidtorian - obviously, they are not insane, since there are people who will buy this model at the price at which it is releaed
I don't think it's as awesome as Nagash, but it's cheaper too. I quite like it, may end up painting one for my wife's army, another just for a display piece.
The pose is an angelic knight levitating with some thematic weapons. The pose isn't original by any means, buy the model is certainly not a copy or ripoff of another model. Either you'll love it or you wont - it's a sigmarites crowd pleaser.
Are we likely to see existing kits repackaged next week?
EDIT
I'm wondering if it will be related to this. The Knight with the banner has a Chaos Knight sword arm and there currently isn't an option for a sword in the Warscroll for the Lord on Juggernaut, only an axe.
Seems odd for GW to do such a specific kitbash considering the Warscroll options are fairly limited. Perhaps we'll see it repackaged with an additional sprue?
I'm wondering if it will be related to this. The Knight with the banner has a Chaos Knight sword arm and there currently isn't an option for a sword in the Warscroll for the Lord on Juggernaut, only an axe.
Seems odd for GW to do such a specific kitbash considering the Warscroll options are fairly limited. Perhaps we'll see it repackaged with an additional sprue?
The Khorne Lord on Juggernaut has been removed from the website, at least in the UK. Was a finecast kit of course, but perhaps a replacement is coming.
Lady Atia wrote:This week releases should be afaik:
Prosecutors box, three models, should be 46,- €
Knight Azyros, should be 33,- €
(that guy is the prosecutor hero)
Knight Venator, same price as the Azyros, shooty hero
Stormcast Eternals Upgrade Sprues, should be 9,- €, with shields and stuff (we have seen the shields back with the one bundle)
Battletome Stormcast Eternals, should be 46,- €, here you have your Armybook/Codex with fluff and rules^^
regards,
Lady Atia
Edit: Also, afaik we still have the Knight Vexillor (banner) and Knight Heraldor to go, just not this week
Prosecutors are $58 USD for 3. Atia says there are a lot of bits, including shields/spears and 2h weapons.
Knight Azyros and Knight Venator are $41 USD each. Knight Azyros has been seen in one of the photos of the whole "siege" in the first Age of Sigmar book. Has a glorious crest and what looked to be a huge honking spear. Knight Venator is supposed to be a ranged hero but no photos have surfaced, at all, of him.
Stormcast Eternals upgrade sprues(which we DID see in the early "one-click bundle" when we first got the Liberators) are around $13 USD.
The Battletome: Stormcast Eternals is to be $58 USD
I like the flying guys but I don't think they're worth $20 each :(
I was gonna keep the chaos stuff from my starter set to paint for fun, but now I'm wondering if I should just try and trade em for another batch of starter Sigmarines, and maybe do some conversions for the characters to change em up a little, and then maybe add in the new swirly leader angely guy
Surprised to see more chapter upgrade packs already. Do we figure these will have five shoulder pads, or enough for a full tac squad? Any idea of other chapter-specific gear included?
...wait a sec. We're not talking about space marines, are we?
Guildsman wrote: Surprised to see more chapter upgrade packs already. Do we figure these will have five shoulder pads, or enough for a full tac squad? Any idea of other chapter-specific gear included?
...wait a sec. We're not talking about space marines, are we?
That stopped being cute ages ago.
Don't have anything useful to contribute or comment on?
Then don't.
Necros wrote: I like the flying guys but I don't think they're worth $20 each :(
Do we know it will be a box of 3? There are 3 paladins in the starter but they got a box of 5, I don't see why the flying guys would be any different unless there is a rumor suggesting otherwise (did I miss something?).
Necros wrote: I like the flying guys but I don't think they're worth $20 each :(
Do we know it will be a box of 3? There are 3 paladins in the starter but they got a box of 5, I don't see why the flying guys would be any different unless there is a rumor suggesting otherwise (did I miss something?).
Lady Atia stated it's going to be a box of 3, and she's got images of the Stormcast battletome already so...I think it's safe to say, box of 3.
And there are 3 Retributors(a specific type of unit made from the Paladins box) in the AoS starter, and their Warscroll specifically states that they're a unit of 3.
Guildsman wrote: Surprised to see more chapter upgrade packs already. Do we figure these will have five shoulder pads, or enough for a full tac squad? Any idea of other chapter-specific gear included?
...wait a sec. We're not talking about space marines, are we?
That stopped being cute ages ago.
Don't have anything useful to contribute or comment on?
Then don't.
To be fair when was the last time we saw any kind of subfaction upgrade kits in fantasy? I think I recall DE, Empire and VC(?) at least had shield kits a decade or so ago.
Hell, even in 40k the old upgrade kits are long forgotten and only recently been replaced with new marine ones.
Those wings take up a lot of space on the starter sprues so I can see why they might only have to be 3 to a box, would be a much nicer if it turns out to be 5 though. <fingers crossed>
a bit disappointed the prosecutors are quite so spendy,compared to the other 'troop' choices so far.
I'd have got a box of 5 to mess about with, not so sure about a box of 3 even with plenty of extras (unless there are extra wing sets, but I doubt that
Guildsman wrote: Surprised to see more chapter upgrade packs already. Do we figure these will have five shoulder pads, or enough for a full tac squad? Any idea of other chapter-specific gear included?
...wait a sec. We're not talking about space marines, are we?
That stopped being cute ages ago.
Don't have anything useful to contribute or comment on?
Then don't.
To be fair when was the last time we saw any kind of subfaction upgrade kits in fantasy? I think I recall DE, Empire and VC(?) at least had shield kits a decade or so ago.
Hell, even in 40k the old upgrade kits are long forgotten and only recently been replaced with new marine ones.
Dark Elves got a set of shields when the basic Warrior kit got updated.
It's still up for Direct Order as well, 10 shields for $9.50--with no heraldry or anything.
Huh. I never noticed that. What is the point of it though without heraldry? Once upon a time you could by the metal heraldry that just went on over the top.
jonolikespie wrote: Huh. I never noticed that. What is the point of it though without heraldry? Once upon a time you could by the metal heraldry that just went on over the top.
I think it's because you can equip Darkshards with shields, but you could not actually equip them with shields from the sprues without significant amounts of cutting/filing.
What are these Stormcast upgrade sets? Are they just shields, or is there going to be other stuff on the sprue as well? Some alternate helmets or weapons might make them a bit more worthwhile.
Barzam wrote: What are these Stormcast upgrade sets? Are they just shields, or is there going to be other stuff on the sprue as well? Some alternate helmets or weapons might make them a bit more worthwhile.
We saw alternate shields and shoulderpads in the bundle imagery awhile back.
Barzam wrote: What are these Stormcast upgrade sets? Are they just shields, or is there going to be other stuff on the sprue as well? Some alternate helmets or weapons might make them a bit more worthwhile.
Hopefully, shields heads and various bits of bling. Just in case your Eternals weren't shiny enough...
Necros wrote: Hrm, I count 5 on the cover.. does that mean there's really 5 in the box?
Centre is Knight Azyros. Guy at the back on the right is the Venator. Prosecutors will most likely be 3. Although I did expect Retributors to be in 3s and they wound up as 5
I was looking at the Stormcast Eternal range. If you just want to paint a single Eternal - you have three options:
1. Buy a character model for $40.
2. Buy a box set for $60.
3. Split a starter for $75.
Splitting squad boxes is problematic as you need all the contents to play... The AoS starter is the best deal - but it all seems so overkill to paint ONE Eternal. Too bad they won't release the White Dwarf promo single fig separately.
The Azyros is actually a nice model. Maybe my favorite from the SE range.
But the better news is Yay! Stormcast Eternals finally done and dusted! Can't wait to see other stuff! Even 40K! I hope there's not too much more Goretide to come.
I do not want Dracoth knights. That is the worst model in the starter box, even worse than the Khorgorath. I'm starting to think those skinny oval bases look crap for biggish models too.
TrollSlayerThorak'Khun'Na wrote: I do not want Dracoth knights. That is the worst model in the starter box, even worse than the Khorgorath. I'm starting to think those skinny oval bases look crap for biggish models too.
Bottle wrote: The Azyros is actually a nice model. Maybe my favorite from the SE range.
But the better news is Yay! Stormcast Eternals finally done and dusted! Can't wait to see other stuff! Even 40K! I hope there's not too much more Goretide to come.
Stormcast are not done yet. There are a few more hero models that aren`t out yet. Khorne still have a few releases to go also
I like the drakoth from the starter a lot. I wouldn't mind a unit of them, but they'd probably be like $50 each.
I was thinking of adding some empire things to my army though, maybe some of those Demigriff knights and a war altar. And some handgunners since I have a box of them collecting dust.
STORMCAST ETERNAL PROSECUTORS (3 models)
46€ (same as Paladins), 35£, 60$
Good looking models, can be built with two hammers, hammer+shield, javelin+shield, special weapons: two handed blade, axe, hammer and a trident.
STORMCAST ETERNAL KNIGHT-AZYROS (1 model)
33€, 25£, 40$
A Prosecutor with a sword and lantern, allow other Eternals to DS next to him even if close from the enemy, debuff enemy units around, once per game can do a damaging aura.
STORMCAST ETERNAL KNIGHT-VENATOR (1 model)
33€, 25£, 40$
A Prosecutor with a bow and an eagle that looks like a mini phoenix. Strong shooting, once per game can use a very powerful anti hero/monster arrow.
STORMCAST ETERNAL KNIGHTS EXCELSIOR UPGRADE SPRUE
9€, 7£, 12$
Same as above
BATTLETOME: STORMCAST ETERNALS (152p hardback)
46€, 35£, 58$
I am sure a lot of people will now call it the Stormcast Codex/Army Book. Not only is it the same price as a Codex, but so is the content. 18 Warscrolls, 9 Batallions Warscrolls or whatever they are called in English, 3 Scenarios. The most complete history/organization depiction of the Stormcast to date.
Stormcast still have at least two more releases maybe one depending how they package them. Banner guy and musician still to see the light of day. This bode`s well for Khorne bloodbound as they may get a book with all the khorne models in it. Hopeflly it also means other forces will get books
The Knight Azyros looks a thousand times better than the Celestant Prime, imo, and it's cheaper to boot. I think I might use that as a base for a Sanguinor. My favorite AoS sculpt so far.
keezus wrote: I was looking at the Stormcast Eternal range. If you just want to paint a single Eternal - you have three options:
1. Buy a character model for $40.
2. Buy a box set for $60.
3. Split a starter for $75.
Splitting squad boxes is problematic as you need all the contents to play... The AoS starter is the best deal - but it all seems so overkill to paint ONE Eternal. Too bad they won't release the White Dwarf promo single fig separately.
4. eBay.
Seriously, the starter box gak is SO cheap on eBay.
Yup that Knight Azyros model is probably my favourite of the Sigmarites so far. I am currently on a miniature buying hiatus...but that model makes it very difficult.
keezus wrote: I was looking at the Stormcast Eternal range. If you just want to paint a single Eternal - you have three options:
1. Buy a character model for $40.
2. Buy a box set for $60.
3. Split a starter for $75.
Splitting squad boxes is problematic as you need all the contents to play... The AoS starter is the best deal - but it all seems so overkill to paint ONE Eternal. Too bad they won't release the White Dwarf promo single fig separately.
Yeah I really wish they'd release a small 3 model test box of "snapfits" like they used to with WoC/SM/CSM/etc, but I'm not holding my breath. It'd be so great for test painting though...
STORMCAST ETERNAL KNIGHT-AZYROS (1 model)
33€, 25£, 40$
A Prosecutor with a sword and lantern, allow other Eternals to DS next to him even if close from the enemy, debuff enemy units around, once per game can do a damaging aura.
STORMCAST ETERNAL KNIGHT-VENATOR (1 model)
33€, 25£, 40$
A Prosecutor with a bow and an eagle that looks like a mini phoenix. Strong shooting, once per game can use a very powerful anti hero/monster arrow.
STORMCAST ETERNAL KNIGHT-AZYROS (1 model)
33€, 25£, 40$
A Prosecutor with a sword and lantern, allow other Eternals to DS next to him even if close from the enemy, debuff enemy units around, once per game can do a damaging aura.
STORMCAST ETERNAL KNIGHT-VENATOR (1 model)
33€, 25£, 40$
A Prosecutor with a bow and an eagle that looks like a mini phoenix. Strong shooting, once per game can use a very powerful anti hero/monster arrow.
I dunno. I'm a big fan of the Lord Celestant. He's a big guy. I thought 30 for him and his pet was reasonable. No worse than some of those clamshell marine personalities (which are admittedly overpriced, but we're talking GW territory as it stands).
The Lord Celestant almost borders on Privateer levels of bedazzling armor. If only his shoulder pads were bigger....
Well I was going to post a list of GW's plastic characters of a similar size to show the price creep, but I think this at the same price does a much better job of showcasing the decline in value. For further evidence, we can recall those recentcharactermodels of a similar price to the Celestant-Prime. Its seeming more and more like GW hasn't learned from the failure of 8th and is going to continue raising prices until AoS goes the same way for the same reason.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Well I was going to post a list of GW's plastic characters of a similar size to show the price creep, but I think this at the same price does a much better job of showcasing the decline in value. For further evidence, we can recall those recentcharactermodels of a similar price to the Celestant-Prime. Its seeming more and more like GW hasn't learned from the failure of 8th and is going to continue raising prices until AoS goes the same way for the same reason.
Well, I think they are clearly addressing the issue of an expensive game by reducing the models, rather than the price per model. I still think the models are in line with Malifaux and WMH, though, and WMH is where they should be in the realm of pricing. I don't think they need to be any cheaper per model, certainly, to be competitive from a purely price perspective.
That being said, generally speaking, I 100% agree that there's price creep every year, and the most successful/popular companies are most guilty of it and essentially (happily, I think) enable each other. Essentially, they price t that way... because they can... and smaller companies have better prices.... because they have to.
At the end of the day, though, from a modeling perspective, it's all about how much you love the model versus how much you're willing to pay for it. And, what material it's made out of, to an extent.
Talys wrote: Thes guys look fantastic. The only problem is, you need the world's biggest carrying case to take your army of Prosecutors, LOL.
Don't worry GW will come out with a special Aos case for that
They should put large wings on the case so you cant fit them in the back seat. Then they can start selling GW Land Raiders for us to transport them in.
If eyes don't betray me, it seems that Azyros and Venator are two options from the same clampack...
If you look to the pose of the legs and even of the ribbons flowing to the base they are suspiciously close.
Well, I think they are clearly addressing the issue of an expensive game by reducing the models, rather than the price per model. I still think the models are in line with Malifaux and WMH, though, and WMH is where they should be in the realm of pricing. I don't think they need to be any cheaper per model, certainly, to be competitive from a purely price perspective.
I am not so sure about that. Most PP things that cost >=40$ are big. Just looking through Cirlce Orboros (my faction), only the gargantuan, battle engine, Extreme (-ly large and metal and silly) warpwolf, and Brennos (oddly) are over 40$. Every other beast or caster character is $35 or below, even the bigger ones with buddies in the pack. There really isn't much in the way of single models you are going to spend >$40 on from PP, and if you do they are really huge. And not HIPS, for some ridiculous reason. But still, big. Tall as Big McLargehuge there is, he is no Warpwolf
$40 for a big, but not much bigger than a chaos terminator lord, model is a bit above the normal market price. Sure, if people are hot for it, makes sense that they will buy it. But wow, they are right out of my price range, even if I did think the sculpt was cool.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Well I was going to post a list of GW's plastic characters of a similar size to show the price creep, but I think this at the same price does a much better job of showcasing the decline in value. For further evidence, we can recall those recentcharactermodels of a similar price to the Celestant-Prime. Its seeming more and more like GW hasn't learned from the failure of 8th and is going to continue raising prices until AoS goes the same way for the same reason.
Well, I think they are clearly addressing the issue of an expensive game by reducing the models, rather than the price per model. I still think the models are in line with Malifaux and WMH, though, and WMH is where they should be in the realm of pricing. I don't think they need to be any cheaper per model, certainly, to be competitive from a purely price perspective.
That being said, generally speaking, I 100% agree that there's price creep every year, and the most successful/popular companies are most guilty of it and essentially (happily, I think) enable each other. Essentially, they price t that way... because they can... and smaller companies have better prices.... because they have to.
At the end of the day, though, from a modeling perspective, it's all about how much you love the model versus how much you're willing to pay for it. And, what material it's made out of, to an extent.
To a certain extent price creep is justified; inflation being an obvious factor, but also newer models tend to be flat out better than the ones they replace. But no company other than GW comes close to doubling prices from 2011 to 2015. Indeed the overall cost to play the game is down, but if the trend continues at the typical GW rate people will be priced out again. Though I don't follow 40k releases, so maybe the creep is exaggerated because sigmarites & khornebloods are the poster-boys for GW's new game. I may be jumping the gun but GW hasn't exactly inspired confidence lately (or, you know, in years).
Well, I think they are clearly addressing the issue of an expensive game by reducing the models, rather than the price per model. I still think the models are in line with Malifaux and WMH, though, and WMH is where they should be in the realm of pricing. I don't think they need to be any cheaper per model, certainly, to be competitive from a purely price perspective.
I am not so sure about that. Most PP things that cost >=40$ are big. Just looking through Cirlce Orboros (my faction), only the gargantuan, battle engine, Extreme (-ly large and metal and silly) warpwolf, and Brennos (oddly) are over 40$. Every other beast or caster character is $35 or below, even the bigger ones with buddies in the pack. There really isn't much in the way of single models you are going to spend >$40 on from PP, and if you do they are really huge. And not HIPS, for some ridiculous reason. But still, big. Tall as Big McLargehuge there is, he is no Warpwolf
$40 for a big, but not much bigger than a chaos terminator lord, model is a bit above the normal market price. Sure, if people are hot for it, makes sense that they will buy it. But wow, they are right out of my price range, even if I did think the sculpt was cool.
You are totally right about the character models, GW models are generally slightly more expensive, though not really excessively so. I recently compared side-by-side with Bradigus with Dominus; they're about the same price and size -
Spoiler:
Both are beautiful models, though it's hard not to see that Bradigus is a simpler model. Either way, both are expensive for the size of model. I also wasn't cherry picking; they just happened to be new releases back in April or so, and I had purchased them both around the same time. Malifaux, by the way, has pretty pricy plastic.
Where it evens out is that the troop models, which are still generally very nice models (for both). GW clocks in at anywhere from $4-$7, and with "special" or "elite" models in the $8-$11 price point. There are some outliers both ways, but not a ton; whereas PP really doesn't have models in this range.
At one point, I would have said that it's really a throwback to WHFB and larger armies, so the PPM *had* to be a little smaller. But then, the new boxes like the Dryads actually increased the model count per box, and many of the new boxes and repacks are all 10+, with some army bonuses kicking in at 20, so who knows.
While it is expensive. In GW terms the price hasn't went up that much. I mean how many folks were expecting more £30 plus characters, or units of 20 for less Tha £40. I just a fiver but those blood reavers are damn useful. The annual report said it all. We won't lower prices, but what we will do is release kits in different amounts of content for new prices. Yeah some are bat s£!t crazy but others have been pretty good value
Rethinking it, I realize that the Dryad repack and the Bloodreavers are why I even notice the prices at all. If it weren't for the tiniest glimmer of hope that GW had at least adjusted their pricing scheme then I would have glanced at the cost, shrugged, and moved on accepting it as par for the course.
Man, I'm glad I already have three more Prosecutors* from bits sellers that cost almost nothing. Ten Euro or so, with shipping. Less than a third, nay, FOURTH of GW's box. Their prices aren't even worth laughing about their absurdity any more. If they ever release a guy on Dracorath (or whatever that's called) and a "Mighty Lord of Khorne" with flesh hound, then they'll charge more for those two than the whole AoS starter, I bet.
It's a shame, because I actually *like* the "soulless automaton" look of the Stormcast, IF you contrast a small amount of them with regular humans. Without that "human element" their sense of scale and extravagant equipment is lost in a sea of sameness.
*I wanted to slap spears, hoplite shields and horsehair crests on them, now GW even delivers rules, how lovely of them. I mean, I don't really want to play AoS, but having the option to have an use for conversion projects is nice.
Now do spear and shield Liberators (or just rules)
Talys wrote: Well, I think they are clearly addressing the issue of an expensive game by reducing the models, rather than the price per model. I still think the models are in line with Malifaux and WMH, though, and WMH is where they should be in the realm of pricing. I don't think they need to be any cheaper per model, certainly, to be competitive from a purely price perspective.
Interestingly: I'm not sure that this claim is entirely correct! I've been reading the AoS threads and there are reports that the game seems to be somewhat more self-balancing once you get to a certain game size (i.e. 200+ models a side) - When the game reaches a certain critical mass of models, the Sudden Death objectives are more workable as the smaller army will have more resources to devote to achieving it, and the defending army will have more models at its disposal to work as well. Also, at this level, battleshock actually becomes a significant factor!
IMHO, comparing AoS releases to Malifaux really paints GW in an unflattering light. Malifaux and Infinity are the two of the lowest model-count games out there, where you are very unlikely to be running more than 15 models per game. Most Malifaux starters come with between 6-7 dudes - $45msrp. (Caveat, I haven't played!) From what I can determine - add a few henchmen, and you're off to the races for under $100 investment. Most of the 60mm base HIPS dudes that you can buy for Malifaux are $35msrp... which again, reflects badly on GW's pricing. The detail isn't bad at all, though the aesthetic isn't for everyone. I had the opportunity to paint Kaeris at Gencon - I'm happy to report that on the newest plastics - the details are very fine and crisp, the posing is dynamic and cinematic. The main beef I have so far is that the assembly aspect of the models is poorly thought out and the dynamism in the models somewhat hampers painting... especially since the stupid models don't go together easily!
Infinity (which I do play) is significantly more expensive as the starters only contain about half the dudes you need at MSRP~$55 (varies somewhat), and buying the upgrades can be inefficient due to CB repacking the minis the boxes with all the options instead of individual blisters.
I'm okay with the Stormcast prices for the elite stuff but what stops me is the Liberators box price. The base dudes are 5 guys for $60 in Canada. It's just too much. I wish that pack had been at least 6 guys.
TrollSlayerThorak'Khun'Na wrote: I'm okay with the Stormcast prices for the elite stuff but what stops me is the Liberators box price. The base dudes are 5 guys for $60 in Canada. It's just too much. I wish that pack had been at least 6 guys.
Thats why you dont buy the box of them. You get them in the starter, or buy extra starter sets for dirt cheap. Wait til bits come out of you want them with other weapons. Thats my plan. Got 2 starters so thats a solid 20 guys, friend has a set I use so really 30 liberators. I plan to convert the special weapons from the bits that are sold
TrollSlayerThorak'Khun'Na wrote: I'm okay with the Stormcast prices for the elite stuff but what stops me is the Liberators box price. The base dudes are 5 guys for $60 in Canada. It's just too much. I wish that pack had been at least 6 guys.
Thats why you dont buy the box of them. You get them in the starter, or buy extra starter sets for dirt cheap. Wait til bits come out of you want them with other weapons. Thats my plan. Got 2 starters so thats a solid 20 guys, friend has a set I use so really 30 liberators. I plan to convert the special weapons from the bits that are sold
I'm with you just wish the base troops were a bit cheaper on their own. Judicators too. Want to make a Stormcast gunline but that adds up fast.
How do the prices compare to their pre-disappearance prices? They're not showing on the U.S. site yet. The Garden of Morr was one of their nicer kits, and the old terrain was actually a decent value.
Interestingly: I'm not sure that this claim is entirely correct! I've been reading the AoS threads and there are reports that the game seems to be somewhat more self-balancing once you get to a certain game size (i.e. 200+ models a side) - When the game reaches a certain critical mass of models, the Sudden Death objectives are more workable as the smaller army will have more resources to devote to achieving it, and the defending army will have more models at its disposal to work as well. Also, at this level, battleshock actually becomes a significant factor!
Just wow.
200+ models...
The new models work out at £6 each in the UK. So a game costing £1200 (about $1800) per side should be good?
And people said WFB was expensive to get into.
:-(
I hope you are right, but I think it is more that they found some remaining stock. What other OOP pieces are back up? I don't see anything unique there on any of the main 3 sites besides the Morr on the UK site.
There definitely are some regional differences as well, Magewraith for starters.
Also as Guildsman says, Morr is not on the US site. Not on Aus either. It is also weird how on the UK site, it is not listed under the scenery tab, but under the AoS tab.
When I was recently and unexpectedly able to buy one from a online retailer (after special order), it went out of stock after purchase. So I guess we will wait and see!
Kanluwen wrote: Funny, I've never once played a game of 200+ models and haven't felt that games have been too unbalanced...
Battleshock is always a factor, and Sudden Death objectives aren't used in the majority of scenarios with no significant issues for most armies.
Hi. Like I said: I don't play, just reading observations. 200 isn't tough to get to if the player is using horde units like Skaven Clanrats, Goblins etc with unit sizes heading towards the high breakpoints for abilities. This obviously won't be the case for an army like Stormcast Eternals. The player posted commentary noted that with small units, character "ignore battleshock" abilities were more potent due to being able to fit your units into his/her aura. Also, larger unit size w/ mixed units (unit+character) would change the dynamic of the pile-in moves due to priority and because not everyone can get in.
Just found those observations interesting. The game is still new and there is no prescribed way to play... I just wanted to note that the game isn't necessarily going to a "small model count" system... i.e. <30 models/side, unless the army is VERY elite. From GW's pricing structure, those elite armies are still going to pay through the nose, as the characters are clocking in at regiment prices.
Gimgamgoo wrote: The new models work out at £6 each in the UK. So a game costing £1200 (about $1800) per side should be good?
And people said WFB was expensive to get into.
:-(
TBF, a decent chunk of WFB armies would have cost that much to build up to common play levels. At any rate, AoS works much better as smaller sizes than WFB 8th did. If you need balance then there are tons of comp systems out there that will do it to varying degrees of success. Once I found a comp that worked my AoS games have been well balanced regardless of size.
Good to see the scenery back! Especially the garden of Morr!
Agreed. With those back AoS has a nice range of fancy terrain in a ruleset that is far more friendly to using them.
Kanluwen wrote: Funny, I've never once played a game of 200+ models and haven't felt that games have been too unbalanced...
Battleshock is always a factor, and Sudden Death objectives aren't used in the majority of scenarios with no significant issues for most armies.
Hi. Like I said: I don't play, just reading observations. 200 isn't tough to get to if the player is using horde units like Skaven Clanrats, Goblins etc with unit sizes heading towards the high breakpoints for abilities. This obviously won't be the case for an army like Stormcast Eternals. The player posted commentary noted that with small units, character "ignore battleshock" abilities were more potent due to being able to fit your units into his/her aura. Also, larger unit size w/ mixed units (unit+character) would change the dynamic of the pile-in moves due to priority and because not everyone can get in.
Just found those observations interesting. The game is still new and there is no prescribed way to play... I just wanted to note that the game isn't necessarily going to a "small model count" system... i.e. <30 models/side, unless the army is VERY elite. From GW's pricing structure, those elite armies are still going to pay through the nose, as the characters are clocking in at regiment prices.
Seen any battle reports of Wood Elf Waywatchers against any army that outnumbers them 2:1 in "The Trap" warscroll?
Unless the Waywatchers roll poorly...it's a shutout.
@keezus - dunno how anyone plays AoS with 200 models per side, but I haven't tried. It seemed like a small, fast, light, and fun game with 30 or so models, and got slower at 50 or 60. I think on a small surface (like 3x3 mat on kitchen table) you could easily play AoS with 10-15 models a side and have a good time, more so than trying to cram 200 models, which sounds like it would require at least 8x12.
One of the issues is that AoS models are highly mobile; they just fly across the table, so it begs for a bigger table as the number of models climbs. Dice rolling 200 models sounds awful too, since there are no mechanisms to simplify combat resolution of high model count model units (just roll more dice).
But, to each their own -- it's not like I've played the game a whole ton, and don't own enough Fantasy models to field 200 if I wanted to
Age Of Sigmar Core Rules wrote: Typically, a game with around a hundred miniatures per side will last for about an evening
I'm quite aware that one can project a variety of interpretations onto this, and I'm sure someone will come back and say 'but that's only an example' but I'd argue the reason this size of game was offered as an example was to plant an idea into players' heads that this is the size of game they should be playing.
) But even you should agree that for people, who are not infatuated with 
