With Necrons I feel they really need some more interesting vehicles and stuff since looking at them its usually so infantry biased with maybe some arcs around. Dark Eldar need the evil equivalent to the Wraith Knight but balanced. DE just need a lot in general. Some armies have huge swathes of selections to pick from. I'm sometimes envious of the opportunities of Space Marine collectors and Chaos collectors since there is just so much variety. Where as Tau, DE, and Necrons (and many others) just don't have much.
HAHAHA! Really? You're actually jealous of the single oldest & most woefully incomplete model line in the entire game!? (Sisters not withstanding)
I mean, I get that we all want more toys, but c'mon, trying to say that Chaos gets actual support, when 15+ years on and we're still waiting for plastic autocannons & missile launchers!?
If you're going to be jealous of someone, at least be jealous of an army that's had more than a paltry 4 kits over the past 9 years.
Hopefully Fenris Part II is the long overdue start to the fabled "Year of Chaos", and we can finally get a model line that isn't perpetually stuck in the early 2000's... Hopefully we can get a good solid 8-12 months of on-off releases, with new kits for;
- basic Chaos Marines
- Terminators
- Havocs
- Chosen
- Berserkers
- Noise Marines
- Plaguemarines
- Oblits/Muties combo kit
- Cultists
- Bikers
- updated Rhino
- updated Land Raider w/new Chaos only variant
And for the Daemon side, throw in at least one more of the Greater Daemons, if not both.
I chuckled, Gamgee likes his Tau.
I think you could leave the terminators alone, and they reboxed the marines so despite being a bit dated they still do the job. I think havos and chosen would be a combo kit, same with oblits/muties so honestly the only major kits would be the 4 cults. I'd say try to combo them in pairs but I am not sure it is possible which is probably why it hasn't occurred. Maybe they will just do plastic upgrades like the sprues they did for blood angles space wolves etc. Give you a god specific champion and enough shoulder pads and gear to make a squad. To me that is the most cost effective approach, I honestly can never see them making 4 unique kits for each cult. Same reason eldar still don't have plastic aspects, there are just too many unique elements and they can't add that many SkU's to the shelves.
I disagree, Termies and CSM need an update. Havoc and Chosen as a combo could work, but I'd almost prefer (although GW would never do it again) an upgrade sprue with plenty of special and heavy weapons and a bit of greeble that could be combined with a Tac box to make either.
But CSM and Termies need an update purely because there's two very different aesthetics at play now in Chaos kits, and they belong to the old style. All Chaos from Dark Vengeance on has had a more organic look (and a better one IMO.) The CSM box and Terminators are still of the old "take what the imperials have and stick some horns and spikes on it" era. The Rhino chassis and Land Raider could use help too, but I know not to dream too big!
Hopefully Fenris Part II is the long overdue start to the fabled "Year of Chaos", and we can finally get a model line that isn't perpetually stuck in the early 2000's... Hopefully we can get a good solid 8-12 months of on-off releases, with new kits for;
- basic Chaos Marines
- Terminators
- Havocs
- Chosen
- Berserkers
- Noise Marines
- Plaguemarines
- Oblits/Muties combo kit
- Cultists
- Bikers
- updated Rhino
- updated Land Raider w/new Chaos only variant
And for the Daemon side, throw in at least one more of the Greater Daemons, if not both.
While I agree GW needs to do a lot for CSM, I think we'll be lucky to get even half of that. Terminators for instance I think GW will decide are "good enough" for now. As much as I'd like to see better chaos specific rhinos and land raiders I think GW is perfectly fine with these.
The basic Chaos Marines aren't just "a bit dated", they're very, very old and they look like it. I love the Chaos aesthetic, but those models are just ugly (some of the parts are good, which is nice when combined with Loyalist Marine kits, though). Especially when there has been no end to the Chapter-specific kits in the last few years. Blood Angels and Space Wolves even get their own Tactical Squads, but Chaos shouldn't get a kit that isn't incredibly dated?
Frozen Ocean wrote: The basic Chaos Marines aren't just "a bit dated", they're very, very old and they look like it. I love the Chaos aesthetic, but those models are just ugly (some of the parts are good, which is nice when combined with Loyalist Marine kits, though). Especially when there has been no end to the Chapter-specific kits in the last few years. Blood Angels and Space Wolves even get their own Tactical Squads, but Chaos shouldn't get a kit that isn't incredibly dated?
You gotta love that good 'ol Loyalist over-entitlement...
"What's that? You want a new Termie kit? But Chaos has a "good enough" Termie kit! I mean, you don't even get enough basic combi-bolters & power weapons to equip a basic squad, and more than half your actual options are entirely missing, but just buy like 4 kits AND convert the living piss out of them, and you can make something decent!
Of course, it's totally fair that we Loyalists have Terminator, Assault Terminator, Wolfguard Terminator, Deathwing Knights/Terminator, Blood Angel Assault Terminator AND Grey Knight Terminator kits!
I mean, they're so radically different and all, there's no way that GW could possibly just issue some added upgrade sprues to add to a basic kit - we need the extra bling of course so that it's clear which Chapter each Termie squad belongs to!"
Or the inevitable farce that's, "Why do you even need separate kits for all your radically different Cults anyways? A simple sprue with 10 shoulder pads, a couple heads, and the odd gun is all you really need for Cult Marines.
But WE need separate kits for Blood Angels Tactical Squads, because they're super different from regular tactical squads, and of course, Space Wolves need their own entire line of kits, because otherwise no one will really know they're wolfy-wolf marines covered in wolf bits!"
And then people wonder why Chaos players get upset...
Frozen Ocean wrote: The basic Chaos Marines aren't just "a bit dated", they're very, very old and they look like it. I love the Chaos aesthetic, but those models are just ugly (some of the parts are good, which is nice when combined with Loyalist Marine kits, though). Especially when there has been no end to the Chapter-specific kits in the last few years. Blood Angels and Space Wolves even get their own Tactical Squads, but Chaos shouldn't get a kit that isn't incredibly dated?
You gotta love that good 'ol Loyalist over-entitlement...
"What's that? You want a new Termie kit? But Chaos has a "good enough" Termie kit! I mean, you don't even get enough basic combi-bolters & power weapons to equip a basic squad, and more than half your actual options are entirely missing, but just buy like 4 kits AND convert the living piss out of them, and you can make something decent!
Of course, it's totally fair that we Loyalists have Terminator, Assault Terminator, Wolfguard Terminator, Deathwing Knights/Terminator, Blood Angel Assault Terminator AND Grey Knight Terminator kits!
I mean, they're so radically different and all, there's no way that GW could possibly just issue some added upgrade sprues to add to a basic kit - we need the extra bling of course so that it's clear which Chapter each Termie squad belongs to!"
Or the inevitable farce that's, "Why do you even need separate kits for all your radically different Cults anyways? A simple sprue with 10 shoulder pads, a couple heads, and the odd gun is all you really need for Cult Marines.
But WE need separate kits for Blood Angels Tactical Squads, because they're super different from regular tactical squads, and of course, Space Wolves need their own entire line of kits, because otherwise no one will really know they're wolfy-wolf marines covered in wolf bits!"
And then people wonder why Chaos players get upset...
The trouble is, they know they will make their money back off the marine kits. The land raider for example is a pretty old kit that has probably more than paid for itself over the years. How long would it take a brand new Chaos variant to pay for itself? I mean maybe they could stick a new sprue in there with some weapons options but that's it. Same with the Terminators and basic csm squads.
There's plenty of things in the chaos line that need updating before any of those things get touched.
Crazyterran wrote: I imagine if Magnus gets laid low in the Space Wolf book, it will be due to Azrael and Grimnar putting aside their differences and teaming up to take him down, perhaps with some help by the Grey Knights.
Or Draigo will pop out of the warp, give Magnus a noogie, carve Leman Russes name into Magnus' Heart, then moonwalk back into the warp.
NOOOOOO!!!!!!!
I could totally see that happening. Some Super Friends, Saturday morning cartoon, PSA bullsquat. Learning lessons of love and friendship across the galaxy. Ugh. Puke.
For my money Russ comes back and apologizes for being an easily lead dupe, and a total loyalist killing tool or Russ comes back to battle Magnus. Then Magnus rips his heading off with Telekinesis, sets his body on fire with Pyrokinesis and tricks half the Space Wolves in to killing the other half of the Space Wolves using Telepathy. Because Magnus was a Titan slaying boss, and Russ was a kin slaying thug.
Pariah-Miniatures wrote: It is about time GW evolved the stagnant state of 40k. New models are always welcome, especially since they keep knocking it out of the park with this crazy kits.
Enough talk about the fabricated Blood Ravens chapter. The RELICTORS, did it first, relic is where they get their name, and they have caused such a problem they are constantly being hunted by shady Inquisitors, all the while hunting for more relics.. They even disobeyed Dante in the war of armageddon and are only interested in aiding others if there is a possibility of relics being looted from the area.
They don't have the style though. Which is what makes the Blud Revens so much more memorable.
The annoying thing about the lack of new Chaos vehicles is that Codex: Space Marines can get kits left and right that are just an old kit with a new sprue that makes it an all-new kit. Look at the Stormhawk and the Hunter/Stalker. The Stormhawk is from the fairly new, but still older Stormtalon. The Hunter/Stalker is just a Rhino(old compared to most of the C:SM kits) with a new sprue. Why can't Chaos have the same thing? Hell, do that same thing with Chaos exclusive vehicles(all one of them) and make something new. Or take a Loyalist vehicle and release a new sprue that is more Chaos-y and say they Dark Mechanicum reverse engineered it.
Edit: And it is kind of BS that they won't release a new base CSM kit. Like the Grey Hunter sprue, it could form the basis of every other PACSM kit.
Edit: And it is kind of BS that they won't release a new base CSM kit. Like the Grey Hunter sprue, it could form the basis of every other PACSM kit.
What's the problem with the CSM kit? I personally like the kit. You get basically 10 Plague marines, 10 Chosen & 10 normal marines and with some
conversion work 10 Havocs, with heavy conversion work even 10 Noise marines. The new Start Collecting! gives you everything to build one of the
10 above of your choice and, because of the helbrute parts easy access to havoc weapons & basically a free Sonic Dread (admittedly with some
conversion work.)
I'd rather stick with this kit than the new CAD Minis of GW. Sure they're pretty.. and thats pretty much it.
Edit: And it is kind of BS that they won't release a new base CSM kit. Like the Grey Hunter sprue, it could form the basis of every other PACSM kit.
What's the problem with the CSM kit? I personally like the kit. You get basically 10 Plague marines, 10 Chosen & 10 normal marines and with some
conversion work 10 Havocs, with heavy conversion work even 10 Noise marines. The new Start Collecting! gives you everything to build one of the
10 above of your choice and, because of the helbrute parts easy access to havoc weapons & basically a free Sonic Dread (admittedly with some
conversion work.)
I'd rather stick with this kit than the new CAD Minis of GW. Sure they're pretty.. and thats pretty much it.
Woah woah did they add something to that kit to make plague marines? Because I remember when it came out and it only let you make 10 normal guys unless you wanted to pretend that they were chosen by changing the paint scheme around a little or something like that. Or do you mean that you could really use them like that without much work other then I guess painting them brown and green and make them look slimy?
Frozen Ocean wrote: The basic Chaos Marines aren't just "a bit dated", they're very, very old and they look like it. I love the Chaos aesthetic, but those models are just ugly (some of the parts are good, which is nice when combined with Loyalist Marine kits, though). Especially when there has been no end to the Chapter-specific kits in the last few years. Blood Angels and Space Wolves even get their own Tactical Squads, but Chaos shouldn't get a kit that isn't incredibly dated?
You gotta love that good 'ol Loyalist over-entitlement...
"What's that? You want a new Termie kit? But Chaos has a "good enough" Termie kit! I mean, you don't even get enough basic combi-bolters & power weapons to equip a basic squad, and more than half your actual options are entirely missing, but just buy like 4 kits AND convert the living piss out of them, and you can make something decent!
Of course, it's totally fair that we Loyalists have Terminator, Assault Terminator, Wolfguard Terminator, Deathwing Knights/Terminator, Blood Angel Assault Terminator AND Grey Knight Terminator kits!
I mean, they're so radically different and all, there's no way that GW could possibly just issue some added upgrade sprues to add to a basic kit - we need the extra bling of course so that it's clear which Chapter each Termie squad belongs to!"
Or the inevitable farce that's, "Why do you even need separate kits for all your radically different Cults anyways? A simple sprue with 10 shoulder pads, a couple heads, and the odd gun is all you really need for Cult Marines.
But WE need separate kits for Blood Angels Tactical Squads, because they're super different from regular tactical squads, and of course, Space Wolves need their own entire line of kits, because otherwise no one will really know they're wolfy-wolf marines covered in wolf bits!"
And then people wonder why Chaos players get upset...
The trouble is, they know they will make their money back off the marine kits. The land raider for example is a pretty old kit that has probably more than paid for itself over the years. How long would it take a brand new Chaos variant to pay for itself? I mean maybe they could stick a new sprue in there with some weapons options but that's it. Same with the Terminators and basic csm squads.
There's plenty of things in the chaos line that need updating before any of those things get touched.
Not long at all. Firstly plastic moulds don't cost anything like they used to, largely thanks to GW owning most of their own kit, and secondly because Chaos is still a strong performing line, as is evidenced by the fact that the old kit is still a top seller.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The basic Chaos Marines aren't just "a bit dated", they're very, very old and they look like it. I love the Chaos aesthetic, but those models are just ugly (some of the parts are good, which is nice when combined with Loyalist Marine kits, though). Especially when there has been no end to the Chapter-specific kits in the last few years. Blood Angels and Space Wolves even get their own Tactical Squads, but Chaos shouldn't get a kit that isn't incredibly dated?
You gotta love that good 'ol Loyalist over-entitlement...
"What's that? You want a new Termie kit? But Chaos has a "good enough" Termie kit! I mean, you don't even get enough basic combi-bolters & power weapons to equip a basic squad, and more than half your actual options are entirely missing, but just buy like 4 kits AND convert the living piss out of them, and you can make something decent!
Of course, it's totally fair that we Loyalists have Terminator, Assault Terminator, Wolfguard Terminator, Deathwing Knights/Terminator, Blood Angel Assault Terminator AND Grey Knight Terminator kits!
I mean, they're so radically different and all, there's no way that GW could possibly just issue some added upgrade sprues to add to a basic kit - we need the extra bling of course so that it's clear which Chapter each Termie squad belongs to!"
Or the inevitable farce that's, "Why do you even need separate kits for all your radically different Cults anyways? A simple sprue with 10 shoulder pads, a couple heads, and the odd gun is all you really need for Cult Marines.
But WE need separate kits for Blood Angels Tactical Squads, because they're super different from regular tactical squads, and of course, Space Wolves need their own entire line of kits, because otherwise no one will really know they're wolfy-wolf marines covered in wolf bits!"
And then people wonder why Chaos players get upset...
The trouble is, they know they will make their money back off the marine kits. The land raider for example is a pretty old kit that has probably more than paid for itself over the years. How long would it take a brand new Chaos variant to pay for itself? I mean maybe they could stick a new sprue in there with some weapons options but that's it. Same with the Terminators and basic csm squads.
There's plenty of things in the chaos line that need updating before any of those things get touched.
Not long at all. Firstly plastic moulds don't cost anything like they used to, largely thanks to GW owning most of their own kit, and secondly because Chaos is still a strong performing line, as is evidenced by the fact that the old kit is still a top seller.
There's a perverse kind of logic there.
The huge number of Chaos players can't buy a new kit, therefore the old kit is a top seller. The old kit is a top seller, there is no reason to replace it.
Yep, sadly the choices are keep buying so GW know there's a demand, or stop buying in protest and risk GW interpreting that as a lack of demand and letting it languish.
What's the problem with the CSM kit? I personally like the kit. You get basically 10 Plague marines, 10 Chosen & 10 normal marines and with some
conversion work 10 Havocs, with heavy conversion work even 10 Noise marines. The new Start Collecting! gives you everything to build one of the
10 above of your choice and, because of the helbrute parts easy access to havoc weapons & basically a free Sonic Dread (admittedly with some
conversion work.)
I'd rather stick with this kit than the new CAD Minis of GW. Sure they're pretty.. and thats pretty much it.
What's the problem with the CSM kit? I personally like the kit. You get basically 10 Plague marines, 10 Chosen & 10 normal marines and with some
conversion work 10 Havocs, with heavy conversion work even 10 Noise marines. The new Start Collecting! gives you everything to build one of the
10 above of your choice and, because of the helbrute parts easy access to havoc weapons & basically a free Sonic Dread (admittedly with some
conversion work.)
I'd rather stick with this kit than the new CAD Minis of GW. Sure they're pretty.. and thats pretty much it.
Is this some ultra deluxe level trolling?
Why should it? I build my Plasma chosen & my plague marines out of the csm kits. Just because a lot of csm players are whiny 'ultra deluxe' to use
your words doesn't mean everyone thinks this way.
What's the problem with the CSM kit? I personally like the kit. You get basically 10 Plague marines, 10 Chosen & 10 normal marines and with some
conversion work 10 Havocs, with heavy conversion work even 10 Noise marines. The new Start Collecting! gives you everything to build one of the
10 above of your choice and, because of the helbrute parts easy access to havoc weapons & basically a free Sonic Dread (admittedly with some
conversion work.)
I'd rather stick with this kit than the new CAD Minis of GW. Sure they're pretty.. and thats pretty much it.
Is this some ultra deluxe level trolling?
Why should it? I build my Plasma chosen & my plague marines out of the csm kits. Just because a lot of csm players are whiny 'ultra deluxe' to use
your words doesn't mean everyone thinks this way.
I prefer toilet paper my finger doesn't go through, I guess they sell the thin stuff cause there's people that don't mind.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The basic Chaos Marines aren't just "a bit dated", they're very, very old and they look like it. I love the Chaos aesthetic, but those models are just ugly (some of the parts are good, which is nice when combined with Loyalist Marine kits, though). Especially when there has been no end to the Chapter-specific kits in the last few years. Blood Angels and Space Wolves even get their own Tactical Squads, but Chaos shouldn't get a kit that isn't incredibly dated?
You gotta love that good 'ol Loyalist over-entitlement...
"What's that? You want a new Termie kit? But Chaos has a "good enough" Termie kit! I mean, you don't even get enough basic combi-bolters & power weapons to equip a basic squad, and more than half your actual options are entirely missing, but just buy like 4 kits AND convert the living piss out of them, and you can make something decent!
Of course, it's totally fair that we Loyalists have Terminator, Assault Terminator, Wolfguard Terminator, Deathwing Knights/Terminator, Blood Angel Assault Terminator AND Grey Knight Terminator kits!
I mean, they're so radically different and all, there's no way that GW could possibly just issue some added upgrade sprues to add to a basic kit - we need the extra bling of course so that it's clear which Chapter each Termie squad belongs to!"
Or the inevitable farce that's, "Why do you even need separate kits for all your radically different Cults anyways? A simple sprue with 10 shoulder pads, a couple heads, and the odd gun is all you really need for Cult Marines.
But WE need separate kits for Blood Angels Tactical Squads, because they're super different from regular tactical squads, and of course, Space Wolves need their own entire line of kits, because otherwise no one will really know they're wolfy-wolf marines covered in wolf bits!"
And then people wonder why Chaos players get upset...
The trouble is, they know they will make their money back off the marine kits. The land raider for example is a pretty old kit that has probably more than paid for itself over the years. How long would it take a brand new Chaos variant to pay for itself? I mean maybe they could stick a new sprue in there with some weapons options but that's it. Same with the Terminators and basic csm squads.
There's plenty of things in the chaos line that need updating before any of those things get touched.
Not long at all. Firstly plastic moulds don't cost anything like they used to, largely thanks to GW owning most of their own kit, and secondly because Chaos is still a strong performing line, as is evidenced by the fact that the old kit is still a top seller.
Like the guy below this post said, there's still that perverse logic behind the supply and demand element of the csm line. The basic squad is selling gang busters like you said, so is there really that much wrong with it? (Genuine question) on the face of it the csm squad, and termy kits look great to me, but there may be issues I don't know of.
Surely the god specific squads should be a priority since they are either resin, ancient, or non existent. As well as things like obliterators and mutilators (which I also believe are resin)
Those would honestly be my bigger priorities before replacing any serviceable plastic kits that are selling well.
If I were GW and saw one of my best selling products have a dip in sales, I would likely question why that is, and do something to counter the downward trend. If they know chaos is popular, a dip in sales for an ancient or badly in need of update kit, would likely spur me into action. Especially if other kits in the product line were doing well.
So the Chaos Space Marine kit doesn't need an update, because it's selling well and there's absolutely nothing that could be improved upon?
I guess they updated the SM Tactical Squad, Assault Marines and Devestators because they were simply bored one day, then?
Now, on-topic, I'd love to see a plastic Magnus the Red, although I do hope he looks more like the old artwork rather than the new...
The reason the kit sells well is because it's needed for most of the Marines units in a CSM army.
Thousand Sons, Noise Marines and Plaque Marines all require the kit in addition to their upgrades.
Chosen don't have a kit so outside of the Starter Set the basic Marines box + converting is all there is.
Unless you're fine with a finecast squad, each with a different weapon you need the basic box + loyalist bits to convert Havocs.
And if you want basic Chaos Space Marines... well you also need the basic box.
While I'll admit other things are a priority over the basic kit... it really needs an update. It no longer fits with the new aesthetic set by the Raptor box and starter set Chosen, is horrible when it comes to the detail (compared to the Tactical Marine box and other recent releases) and is a mess when it comes to mold lines.
It's not like Tactical Marines needed a new box either, and yet they got it.
Could you please move the general talk about how old and bad CSM models are to the general 40k forum. They will not be updated as part of this 2016 release. It was already commented on by Sad Panda a while ago:
- No complete overhaul of the Chaos Space Marines miniature range
- No new Codex
Maybe they will get an update to their army list like a Decurion in the WZ Fenris II campaign book. But more likely it is just a variant list like White Scars or Black Legion got. I would not even expect changes to the Rubric Marines ruleswise.
Chaos players need to get used to the idea that marines are the the main faction and chaos is just there for them to shoot at and make the space marines look good. Your army is just a side one for the main forces and focus of 40k - the imperium.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Chaos players need to get used to the idea that marines are the the main faction and chaos is just there for them to shoot at and make the space marines look good. Your army is just a side one for the main forces and focus of 40k - the imperium.
I've seen this joke too many times at this point, so I have to ask: seriously?
My brother just uses the Raptor box set to mix it up a bit with his CSM tactical squads. Lots of lovely chainswords and special weapons to mess about with as well as the heads.
Leman Russ cried out in rage to his brother: "It was all your fault! Betraying the emperor with your damned sorceries! You gave me no choice but to fight you!"
Magnus looked up, staring directly into his brothers fierce eyes. With a calm voice, yet oddly sad given his hatred for the man he once called brother, Magnus stated: "No brother, it was your choices that led us to this fate."
*ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZAP
Really keen for this. I loved the fluff in the Warzone Fenris 1 book - the battles were a bit boring, but the overall story was really interesting so I'm looking forward to the sequel.
Giving Tzeentch a little love is definitely a good thing, too!
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Chaos players need to get used to the idea that marines are the the main faction and chaos is just there for them to shoot at and make the space marines look good. Your army is just a side one for the main forces and focus of 40k - the imperium.
I've seen this joke too many times at this point, so I have to ask: seriously?
Yes seriously. The imperium is the focus of gw attention and and background, everything else is there to serve as fodder for that machinery.
With Necrons I feel they really need some more interesting vehicles and stuff since looking at them its usually so infantry biased with maybe some arcs around. Dark Eldar need the evil equivalent to the Wraith Knight but balanced. DE just need a lot in general. Some armies have huge swathes of selections to pick from. I'm sometimes envious of the opportunities of Space Marine collectors and Chaos collectors since there is just so much variety. Where as Tau, DE, and Necrons (and many others) just don't have much.
HAHAHA! Really? You're actually jealous of the single oldest & most woefully incomplete model line in the entire game!? (Sisters not withstanding)
I mean, I get that we all want more toys, but c'mon, trying to say that Chaos gets actual support, when 15+ years on and we're still waiting for plastic autocannons & missile launchers!?
If you're going to be jealous of someone, at least be jealous of an army that's had more than a paltry 4 kits over the past 9 years.
Hopefully Fenris Part II is the long overdue start to the fabled "Year of Chaos", and we can finally get a model line that isn't perpetually stuck in the early 2000's... Hopefully we can get a good solid 8-12 months of on-off releases, with new kits for;
- basic Chaos Marines
- Terminators
- Havocs
- Chosen
- Berserkers
- Noise Marines
- Plaguemarines
- Oblits/Muties combo kit
- Cultists
- Bikers
- updated Rhino
- updated Land Raider w/new Chaos only variant
And for the Daemon side, throw in at least one more of the Greater Daemons, if not both.
I chuckled, Gamgee likes his Tau.
I think you could leave the terminators alone, and they reboxed the marines so despite being a bit dated they still do the job. I think havos and chosen would be a combo kit, same with oblits/muties so honestly the only major kits would be the 4 cults. I'd say try to combo them in pairs but I am not sure it is possible which is probably why it hasn't occurred. Maybe they will just do plastic upgrades like the sprues they did for blood angles space wolves etc. Give you a god specific champion and enough shoulder pads and gear to make a squad. To me that is the most cost effective approach, I honestly can never see them making 4 unique kits for each cult. Same reason eldar still don't have plastic aspects, there are just too many unique elements and they can't add that many SkU's to the shelves.
I disagree, Termies and CSM need an update. Havoc and Chosen as a combo could work, but I'd almost prefer (although GW would never do it again) an upgrade sprue with plenty of special and heavy weapons and a bit of greeble that could be combined with a Tac box to make either.
But CSM and Termies need an update purely because there's two very different aesthetics at play now in Chaos kits, and they belong to the old style. All Chaos from Dark Vengeance on has had a more organic look (and a better one IMO.) The CSM box and Terminators are still of the old "take what the imperials have and stick some horns and spikes on it" era. The Rhino chassis and Land Raider could use help too, but I know not to dream too big!
Sorry, I should have been clear. I agree with everything you just said, but sort of like you and your pragmatism in regards to the rhino/LR I was applying the same dose of realism to the termies and CSM kits. If I had to pick a few things to get all new plastics, I would go for a chosen./havoc kit and some sort of upgrade solution in plastic for the 4 cults. If you think the CSM are bad, my god are those gigantic handed berserkers awful now.
I think GW going the one chaos God updated at a time is a good thing. I think the Rubric marines will stand alone and won't need the basic CSM sprues to be built. I have to believe they will be standalone models that if current trends are anything will have minimal modularity.
Chaos SM have so many models in need of being redone... I think there is a greater possibility of certain traditional units simply being dropped rather than getting redone. As some here so quickly remind us so many things depend on that basic CSM kit and yet it's lacking; I don't think it will get redone until all of the cult kits dependent on it have been redone to break that dependency.
The type of layer cake chaos kits CSM have just aren't how GW does new models and I think it's why the one God at a time approach gurantees the most getting done. When GW did KDK I think it was an experiment to see if CSM players would accept CSM in some form other than a singular CSM book.
At this point we know the volume of content GW will give each force in these campaign books... Tzneetch can expect as much with all these.
aka_mythos wrote: I think GW going the one chaos God updated at a time is a good thing. I think the Rubric marines will stand alone and won't need the basic CSM sprues to be built. I have to believe they will be standalone models that if current trends are anything will have minimal modularity.
Chaos SM have so many models in need of being redone... I think there is a greater possibility of certain traditional units simply being dropped rather than getting redone. As some here so quickly remind us so many things depend on that basic CSM kit and yet it's lacking; I don't think it will get redone until all of the cult kits dependent on it have been redone to break that dependency.
The type of layer cake chaos kits CSM have just aren't how GW does new models and I think it's why the one God at a time approach gurantees the most getting done. When GW did KDK I think it was an experiment to see if CSM players would accept CSM in some form other than a singular CSM book.
At this point we know the volume of content GW will give each force in these campaign books... Tzneetch can expect as much with all these.
It's possible I suppose except we have already been told by reliable sources that KDK was a one of fluke in order to justify releasing the new blood thirster kit. The Glotkin was also rumored to be the great unclean one and frankly, it still is. I would like god specific campaigns and releases but I am just not that confident. My guess is tzeentch gets some love in WZF2 and plague marines and noise marines, if they ever get a kit, will get it with a general release. Not sure qwe will ever see a keeper of secrets in plastic even though it's my favorite greater demon.
Chaos is just in a unique predicament with how there is an overlap of some minis into AoS. Just as CSM are getting Tzneetch so are chaos in AoS. In AoS there were rumors of a Nurgle driven campaign to free Slannesh, who was apparently captured. If that is true it does mitigate the number of kits, but only really for Daemons. It does make something like KDK relatively easy. If the AoS campaign rumor is true we'll get our enticing greater daemon.
KDK was a rushed fluke and we aren't going to get that again but when you look at that book the amount of new content is roughly equal to what armies have been getting in the campaign books. It might not speak to the specific nature of how GW approaches it, just the fact that they likely will and the depth and degree they'll go.
The thing the most reliable rumor mongers keep saying "chaos space marine are not being redone"... I however suspect we'll see a number of campaign based releases followed by a supplemental book that compiles them... Similar to what happened with White Scars and Raven Guard before the Angels of Death book.
aka_mythos wrote: I think GW going the one chaos God updated at a time is a good thing. I think the Rubric marines will stand alone and won't need the basic CSM sprues to be built. I have to believe they will be standalone models that if current trends are anything will have minimal modularity.
Its been kinda glossed over by the OMG! Magnus talk, but this is a good point about the Rubic Marines. Although I'm not sure about the minimal modularity as Marine armour(even CSM) lends itself well to modular kits. Plastic Rubics that will probably make at least two different units OMG! Its going to be really interesting to see what else GW release alongside them, and what existing kits/units the list will use(apart from the obvious Rhino/Predator/Landraider). A 1k Sons Terminator kit that's compatible with the BaC Cataphractii would be high on my personal wishlist.
aka_mythos wrote: I think GW going the one chaos God updated at a time is a good thing. I think the Rubric marines will stand alone and won't need the basic CSM sprues to be built. I have to believe they will be standalone models that if current trends are anything will have minimal modularity.
Its been kinda glossed over by the OMG! Magnus talk, but this is a good point about the Rubic Marines. Although I'm not sure about the minimal modularity as Marine armour(even CSM) lends itself well to modular kits. Plastic Rubics that will probably make at least two different units OMG! Its going to be really interesting to see what else GW release alongside them, and what existing kits/units the list will use(apart from the obvious Rhino/Predator/Landraider). A 1k Sons Terminator kit that's compatible with the BaC Cataphractii would be high on my personal wishlist.
When I say limited modularity I'm thinking mostly about the sorcerer. I think about the 40k Mechanicum Robots where the techpriest has one alternate arm and is pretty much only intended to go together that limited way. I imagine it'll end up being like that. At the same time Rubric marines aren't dynamic and don't really need to vary. I think it depends on GW objectives. I could see it go one other way.
If I were GW I would release some sort of kit that doubles for the Cyclopia Cabal or a similar Tzneetch formation allowing you to build 5 sorcerers and giving the bits to vary the Thousand Sons squad sorcerer more greatly. In keeping with GW common practice a two in one kit to both thousand sons or this... In one sense this would be beneficial for having a kit with enough spare Tzneetch bits to spread through an army but it would also point to a smaller 5 model kit. That might actually make sense when you consider the parallel between something like thousand son and something elite like Sternguard.
As far as other releases I think it'll be a pretty fat Tzneetch release as I imagine this would happen at the same time as the AoS Tzneetch release. I wouldn't be surprised if GW ends up making the Tzneetch beastmen/birdmen some sort of 40k cultist offshoot. I think if GW gives us anything else for Thousand Sons or Tzneetch worshipping CSM I'm betting it'll be something new rather than just Thousand Son versions of terminators/hellbrutes/etc... Something like the Khorne Lawnmower seems more likely.
WayneTheGame wrote: Woah woah did they add something to that kit to make plague marines? Because I remember when it came out and it only let you make 10 normal guys
It wasn't even 10, it was 8. The current style Chaos Marines were originally 8 models when released, the 10 model version is a re-cut re-release.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Chaos players need to get used to the idea that marines are the the main faction and chaos is just there for them to shoot at and make the space marines look good. Your army is just a side one for the main forces and focus of 40k - the imperium.
I've seen this joke too many times at this point, so I have to ask: seriously?
Yes seriously. The imperium is the focus of gw attention and and background, everything else is there to serve as fodder for that machinery.
Yeah that's why SM is most powerful army in the game...Wait oh no. Sorry. Nevermind.
aka_mythos wrote: I think GW going the one chaos God updated at a time is a good thing. I think the Rubric marines will stand alone and won't need the basic CSM sprues to be built. I have to believe they will be standalone models that if current trends are anything will have minimal modularity.
Its been kinda glossed over by the OMG! Magnus talk, but this is a good point about the Rubic Marines. Although I'm not sure about the minimal modularity as Marine armour(even CSM) lends itself well to modular kits. Plastic Rubics that will probably make at least two different units OMG! Its going to be really interesting to see what else GW release alongside them, and what existing kits/units the list will use(apart from the obvious Rhino/Predator/Landraider). A 1k Sons Terminator kit that's compatible with the BaC Cataphractii would be high on my personal wishlist.
When I say limited modularity I'm thinking mostly about the sorcerer. I think about the 40k Mechanicum Robots where the techpriest has one alternate arm and is pretty much only intended to go together that limited way. I imagine it'll end up being like that. At the same time Rubric marines aren't dynamic and don't really need to vary. I think it depends on GW objectives. I could see it go one other way.
If I were GW I would release some sort of kit that doubles for the Cyclopia Cabal or a similar Tzneetch formation allowing you to build 5 sorcerers and giving the bits to vary the Thousand Sons squad sorcerer more greatly. In keeping with GW common practice a two in one kit to both thousand sons or this... In one sense this would be beneficial for having a kit with enough spare Tzneetch bits to spread through an army but it would also point to a smaller 5 model kit. That might actually make sense when you consider the parallel between something like thousand son and something elite like Sternguard.
As far as other releases I think it'll be a pretty fat Tzneetch release as I imagine this would happen at the same time as the AoS Tzneetch release. I wouldn't be surprised if GW ends up making the Tzneetch beastmen/birdmen some sort of 40k cultist offshoot. I think if GW gives us anything else for Thousand Sons or Tzneetch worshipping CSM I'm betting it'll be something new rather than just Thousand Son versions of terminators/hellbrutes/etc... Something like the Khorne Lawnmower seems more likely.
Edit: And it is kind of BS that they won't release a new base CSM kit. Like the Grey Hunter sprue, it could form the basis of every other PACSM kit.
What's the problem with the CSM kit? I personally like the kit. You get basically 10 Plague marines, 10 Chosen & 10 normal marines and with some
conversion work 10 Havocs, with heavy conversion work even 10 Noise marines. The new Start Collecting! gives you everything to build one of the
10 above of your choice and, because of the helbrute parts easy access to havoc weapons & basically a free Sonic Dread (admittedly with some
conversion work.)
I'd rather stick with this kit than the new CAD Minis of GW. Sure they're pretty.. and thats pretty much it.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Chaos players need to get used to the idea that marines are the the main faction and chaos is just there for them to shoot at and make the space marines look good. Your army is just a side one for the main forces and focus of 40k - the imperium.
I've seen this joke too many times at this point, so I have to ask: seriously?
Yes seriously. The imperium is the focus of gw attention and and background, everything else is there to serve as fodder for that machinery.
Yeah that's why SM is most powerful army in the game...Wait oh no. Sorry. Nevermind.
[/MAULER REPORTING. Yes, I started this. I was setting up my Tzeeneshi daemons to play when an old mate who I hadn't seen for a while wandered over with a stranger in tow and showed me his phone with a 1k pic and a not-so-great pic of Magnus. I recall it being a side-on/three quarters shot with a red figure leaning forward with what looked like blue wings on his back, the chap said that it was Magus (which it looked like) in plastic. It was thoroughly out of the left field, both the guys turning up and GW doing plastic Primarchs which have ascended to daemonhood, given that when I last spoke to the Design Studio they had no plans to progress the 40k story significantly but then that was back in 2013. There was nothing in the picture that I remember for scale but if it's Magnus then it don't think it'll be small but then probably not Knight-sized either (personal conjecture!)? Maybe a similar size to a 30k Thanatar is a reasonable expectation?
Like I originally said on Faeit; "But yeah, if I were reading this from someone else who said "I met a friend of a friend and he said..." then I'd have a healthy scepticism too. I can say that I saw the pics 100% but I can't say that the pics are legit 100% simply because I don't know the chap. They certainly looked appropriate and genuine." All I know for sure is what I was told and what I saw. It may be nothing, but based on what others like Atia have said this may be another part to a "daemonic Primarchs and when" puzzle?QUOTE]
Are there also any news on the Genestealer cult codex or new tyranids? There were rumors that genestealer also get a codex like deathwatch, but somehow it's quiet silent about this topic now. Perhaps anybody has some intel on it .
Since we are getting Magnus in plastic, what are the odds we are getting Lemans Russ? It seemail like a logical place to put him. As for part 2, my guess is Grey Knights, Dark Angels, and Thousand Sons. Kinda like Mont'ka and Kauyon. We already got SW and Daemons in the last book.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Since we are getting Magnus in plastic, what are the odds we are getting Lemans Russ? It seemail like a logical place to put him. As for part 2, my guess is Grey Knights, Dark Angels, and Thousand Sons. Kinda like Mont'ka and Kauyon. We already got SW and Daemons in the last book.
We're getting Russ in resin this year, would he be different enough to warrant also getting a plastic model?
casvalremdeikun wrote: Since we are getting Magnus in plastic, what are the odds we are getting Lemans Russ? It seemail like a logical place to put him. As for part 2, my guess is Grey Knights, Dark Angels, and Thousand Sons. Kinda like Mont'ka and Kauyon. We already got SW and Daemons in the last book.
I'm hoping Space Wolves get a bit in part 2. Like fixing the rest of the units they ignored in part 1.... and Morkai's company.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Since we are getting Magnus in plastic, what are the odds we are getting Lemans Russ? It seemail like a logical place to put him. As for part 2, my guess is Grey Knights, Dark Angels, and Thousand Sons. Kinda like Mont'ka and Kauyon. We already got SW and Daemons in the last book.
We're getting Russ in resin this year, would he be different enough to warrant also getting a plastic model?
We are getting Magnus twice as well, aren't we? Though that is Daemon v. Not Daemon. So maybe not?
pm713 wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote: Since we are getting Magnus in plastic, what are the odds we are getting Lemans Russ? It seemail like a logical place to put him. As for part 2, my guess is Grey Knights, Dark Angels, and Thousand Sons. Kinda like Mont'ka and Kauyon. We already got SW and Daemons in the last book.
I'm hoping Space Wolves get a bit in part 2. Like fixing the rest of the units they ignored in part 1.... and Morkai's company.
It would make sense for there to be SW stuff, but who knows. It would be a little stuffed. Dark Angels don't really need anything, but they are integral to the plot. This would be a good place for Grey Knights to get their Super Detachment. And 1KS need...lots. Especially if they are getting new plastics. I am hoping for army boxes like Kauyon/Mont'ka had.
Given where Russ has been for the last 10 thousand years, it isn't inconceivable that he'll need a large plastic kit to portray how he looks now as well...
Azreal13 wrote: Given where Russ has been for the last 10 thousand years, it isn't inconceivable that he'll need a large plastic kit to portray how he looks now as well...
He probably wouldn't be a Wulfen. I just hope they don't make him a huge Thunderwolf or something.
Azreal13 wrote: Given where Russ has been for the last 10 thousand years, it isn't inconceivable that he'll need a large plastic kit to portray how he looks now as well...
He probably wouldn't be a Wulfen. I just hope they don't make him a huge Thunderwolf or something.
I know I shouldn’t laugh, but I find that concept incredibly amusing. And completely in line with the wolfing if the SW line.
I can just see the humongous wolf, probably on a flyer sized base, with little scraps of armor still attached to him.
Azreal13 wrote: Given where Russ has been for the last 10 thousand years, it isn't inconceivable that he'll need a large plastic kit to portray how he looks now as well...
He probably wouldn't be a Wulfen. I just hope they don't make him a huge Thunderwolf or something.
I know I shouldn’t laugh, but I find that concept incredibly amusing. And completely in line with the wolfing if the SW line.
I can just see the humongous wolf, probably on a flyer sized base, with little scraps of armor still attached to him.
Behold! The WOLFTIME!!
(apologies to any SW players)
I dont even care now. The idea of him turning into great wolf sif from dark souls is amazing.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Since we are getting Magnus in plastic, what are the odds we are getting Lemans Russ? It seemail like a logical place to put him. As for part 2, my guess is Grey Knights, Dark Angels, and Thousand Sons. Kinda like Mont'ka and Kauyon. We already got SW and Daemons in the last book.
Do you think we'd get Leman Russ if there weren't other SW stuff in the book? I think for that point alone we won't see him, Magnus will probably be fought by GKs because reasons.
While they've already showed up in the fluff, I don't know if I expect Dark Angel rules. They have a 7.5e book with a Multiple Formation Detachment already, I would likely suspect a GK version though. That's really what they've been using these books for, so GK and possibly CSM make sense.
Daemon Primarchs have already had minis from way back when in Epic scale. Magnus was a round and IIRC Angron had a mini too. They are a presence in 40k.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Since we are getting Magnus in plastic, what are the odds we are getting Lemans Russ? It seemail like a logical place to put him. As for part 2, my guess is Grey Knights, Dark Angels, and Thousand Sons. Kinda like Mont'ka and Kauyon. We already got SW and Daemons in the last book.
Do you think we'd get Leman Russ if there weren't other SW stuff in the book? I think for that point alone we won't see him, Magnus will probably be fought by GKs because reasons.
Reason being that short of primarches coming back they are pretty much only force capable of taking on daemonic primarch. Especially since they have proven track record in that.
Albeit even more logical solution would be to nuke him from orbit but that would be boring story
Daemon Primarchs have already had minis from way back when in Epic scale. Magnus was a round and IIRC Angron had a mini too. They are a presence in 40k.
Lost Primarchs really haven't been.
Well there's one very good reason: Money. Primarch will be printing money so you expect GW to not utilize it sometime? Question isn't if but when.
(somebody quoted original guys of GW saying 30k was more of last resort. Well gee apart from GW NEEDING desperately to bolster up sales sooner or later that last resort was going to be needed anyway. That or GW would eventually go down without using that)
I don't think Primarchs "print money". Good units do, because people will buy lots. How many Eldar Jetbikes do you think have sold since the 7e codex? But everyone buys at most 1 Primarch, and many 0. There's not a lot of call for one person to buy multiple versions of Russ, but once people figured out that Wulfen were the sauce, every Wolf player I know bought like 4 boxes.
Magnus makes sense if he can be an upgrade sprue to a LoC or Prince, but I think it's more of a "hey, we're really sorry we've neglected 1k Sons forever, here's a cool Character for them too!".
Requizen wrote: I don't think Primarchs "print money". Good units do, because people will buy lots. How many Eldar Jetbikes do you think have sold since the 7e codex? But everyone buys at most 1 Primarch, and many 0. There's not a lot of call for one person to buy multiple versions of Russ, but once people figured out that Wulfen were the sauce, every Wolf player I know bought like 4 boxes.
Magnus makes sense if he can be an upgrade sprue to a LoC or Prince, but I think it's more of a "hey, we're really sorry we've neglected 1k Sons forever, here's a cool Character for them too!".
Yeah but then again price is up on the roof giving profit margin bigger than most and primarch is going to sell for wide range. Scatbikes will sell to those with eldar army. Primarch will sell for...Well target is larger than just SM players. Not every 40k player but pretty damn wide.
Yeah they won't be biggest sellers GW has but it's pretty much quaranteed profit release. They have no reason to NOT release them.
Your last comment only makes sense if Magnus is only. I doubt he's going to be last primarch you see.
If GW are going ahead with some kind of 40k end times scenario(without the whole destroying the setting thing) having loyal Primarchs return to light the Imperiums darkest hour could be cool. Especialy if some of them object to the way the Imperium has developed while they were away. I'd be interested to see what they would do with them visuallyto separate them from the FW models. The traitors are all demon princes so there's an excuse to have them look very different from there HH versions. The loyalists on the other hand would probably just look older(except Guilliman).
GoatboyBeta wrote: If GW are going ahead with some kind of 40k end times scenario(without the whole destroying the setting thing) having loyal Primarchs return to light the Imperiums darkest hour could be cool. Especialy if some of them object to the way the Imperium has developed while they were away. I'd be interested to see what they would do with them visuallyto separate them from the FW models. The traitors are all demon princes so there's an excuse to have them look very different from there HH versions. The loyalists on the other hand would probably just look older(except Guilliman).
Well it's not like GW has not released models FW did...
Daemon Primarchs have already had minis from way back when in Epic scale. Magnus was a round and IIRC Angron had a mini too. They are a presence in 40k.
Lost Primarchs really haven't been.
Just as far back there was a Leman Russ miniature. So if past miniatures are any justification at all his would be as well.
Further still he's likely only lost because he's been trying to bring the fight to the Daemon Primarchs for the last 10,000 years.... The narrative of Daemon Primarchs returning to the material plane only to be pursued by the ultimate "Ahab" like character makes more sense than the coincidence of any or all the other loyalist Primarchs returning.
Most of the not dead loyalists make as much sense returning as Russ. The only exception being the "dead" but healing Guileman. As he actually supposedly died....
Either way I'm excited for part 2. Which is something since I haven't cared about 40k fluff in years since it's stayed the same the last decade except for the rare retcon like the Necrons or new SM units.
I hope they don't do a grey knights multi-formation detachment. Their model range doesn't give them enough to do that. New detachment, sure. But not an mfd.
Dark angels I could see, chaos marines for sure. All they really need are the "core" choices for the other wolf lords.
GoatboyBeta wrote: If GW are going ahead with some kind of 40k end times scenario(without the whole destroying the setting thing) having loyal Primarchs return to light the Imperiums darkest hour could be cool. Especialy if some of them object to the way the Imperium has developed while they were away. I'd be interested to see what they would do with them visuallyto separate them from the FW models. The traitors are all demon princes so there's an excuse to have them look very different from there HH versions. The loyalists on the other hand would probably just look older(except Guilliman).
Leman Russ has been in the Warp. That has some "interesting" effects on time
Lionel Johnson has been in stasis, so no aging
Vulkan is an eternal, so much like "Duncan McLeod the Highlander" he doesn't age.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have a rather extensive Primarch collection. I've collected models from Forge World, Ronin, Kabuki, etc.
Honestly, my first Primarch was the Ronin version of Magnus, and he's HUGE. The model is pre-deamon, but still stands 85mm tall. I know Magnus was the largest Primarch, but that's still pushing it.
cuda1179 wrote: Honestly, my first Primarch was the Ronin version of Magnus, and he's HUGE. The model is pre-deamon, but still stands 85mm tall. I know Magnus was the largest Primarch, but that's still pushing it.
I hope his new rules are fitting.
What scale? That might be tad small for Inquisitor scaled Magnus for example.
If 28mm then yeah 3xhuman size or so...Don't think primarch are supposed to be THAT tall.
Hulksmash wrote: Most of the not dead loyalists make as much sense returning as Russ. The only exception being the "dead" but healing Guileman. As he actually supposedly died....
I think the difficulty of the other loyalist primarchs is that its alot easier to say all the Chaos Primarchs decided to launch an offensive than it is to say... after 10,000 years out of pure coincidence this primarch awakens, and this primarch decides to get over his mental health issues, and this primarch... etc. I think bringing the Daemon Primarchs works well in the narrative and heightens tension, but the loyalist primarchs returning is something that should take time.
What I think is an interesting implication is the likely stronger refocusing of CSM around the big 4 Daemon Primarchs. I don't think GW wants any semblance of Chaos Legions in the 40k era. Black Legion is now really a mishmosh of the most dedicated Chaos Marines who have come together from any legion and where the only other flavor GW prescribes is non-Legion renegades like Crimson Slaughter and KDK. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next CSM codex they outright say besides Black Legion there are no "Chaos Legions." -Not saying its a good thing, just the trajectory GW is on.
Hulksmash wrote: Most of the not dead loyalists make as much sense returning as Russ. The only exception being the "dead" but healing Guileman. As he actually supposedly died....
I think the difficulty of the other loyalist primarchs is that its alot easier to say all the Chaos Primarchs decided to launch an offensive than it is to say... after 10,000 years out of pure coincidence this primarch awakens, and this primarch decides to get over his mental health issues, and this primarch... etc. I think bringing the Daemon Primarchs works well in the narrative and heightens tension, but the loyalist primarchs returning is something that should take time.
What I think is an interesting implication is the likely stronger refocusing of CSM around the big 4 Daemon Primarchs. I don't think GW wants any semblance of Chaos Legions in the 40k era. Black Legion is now really a mishmosh of the most dedicated Chaos Marines who have come together from any legion and where the only other flavor GW prescribes is non-Legion renegades like Crimson Slaughter and KDK. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next CSM codex they outright say besides Black Legion there are no "Chaos Legions." -Not saying its a good thing, just the trajectory GW is on.
Yeah, I can't see the loyalist Primarchs returning en mass! Vulkan is supposedly a prisoner of that necron dude isn't he? Corax went nuts and flew off on his own. The Lion and Guilliman are both in situe at home. They aren't in a position to get the band back together. In fact I don't even see Russ coming back for Fenris 2, I think Magnus will come back there will be some serious gak going down and I am hoping he takes some names. Who knows we could even see Fenris becoming a Daemon world or something? With a future supplement being about Russ returning to free it from Chaos.
aka_mythos wrote: What I think is an interesting implication is the likely stronger refocusing of CSM around the big 4 Daemon Primarchs. I don't think GW wants any semblance of Chaos Legions in the 40k era. Black Legion is now really a mishmosh of the most dedicated Chaos Marines who have come together from any legion and where the only other flavor GW prescribes is non-Legion renegades like Crimson Slaughter and KDK. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next CSM codex they outright say besides Black Legion there are no "Chaos Legions." -Not saying its a good thing, just the trajectory GW is on.
Which makes zero sense when you look at the actual models and rules. Like what happened to their storm bolters? An item so common that the Imperium outfits their fething shipping containers with them, yet the Crimson Slaughter couldn't manage to maintain theirs? A huge part of CSM flavor comes from the fact that they use Heresy-era Legion equipment. But wait! They're not Legions. Makes no sense.
aka_mythos wrote: What I think is an interesting implication is the likely stronger refocusing of CSM around the big 4 Daemon Primarchs. I don't think GW wants any semblance of Chaos Legions in the 40k era. Black Legion is now really a mishmosh of the most dedicated Chaos Marines who have come together from any legion and where the only other flavor GW prescribes is non-Legion renegades like Crimson Slaughter and KDK. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next CSM codex they outright say besides Black Legion there are no "Chaos Legions." -Not saying its a good thing, just the trajectory GW is on.
Which makes zero sense when you look at the actual models and rules. Like what happened to their storm bolters? An item so common that the Imperium outfits their fething shipping containers with them, yet the Crimson Slaughter couldn't manage to maintain theirs? A huge part of CSM flavor comes from the fact that they use Heresy-era Legion equipment. But wait! They're not Legions. Makes no sense.
It's a tricky one - striking the balance between (Chaos) Renegade Marines and their loyalist brothers. Otherwise Renegades could very easily become Marines++ with everything that the Loyalists have, PLUS Daemonic allies and cool Chaos-flavoured toys. I mean, where do we draw the line? Storm Bolters or Centurions? I agree that there should be something, but it's tricky trying to define something rules-wise that works for post-heresy chapters - between the guys just declared Excommunicate Traitoris last week and the Astral Claws/Red Corsairs or where chapters like the Relictors fit in.
Hulksmash wrote: Most of the not dead loyalists make as much sense returning as Russ. The only exception being the "dead" but healing Guileman. As he actually supposedly died....
I think the difficulty of the other loyalist primarchs is that its alot easier to say all the Chaos Primarchs decided to launch an offensive than it is to say... after 10,000 years out of pure coincidence this primarch awakens, and this primarch decides to get over his mental health issues, and this primarch... etc. I think bringing the Daemon Primarchs works well in the narrative and heightens tension, but the loyalist primarchs returning is something that should take time.
What I think is an interesting implication is the likely stronger refocusing of CSM around the big 4 Daemon Primarchs. I don't think GW wants any semblance of Chaos Legions in the 40k era. Black Legion is now really a mishmosh of the most dedicated Chaos Marines who have come together from any legion and where the only other flavor GW prescribes is non-Legion renegades like Crimson Slaughter and KDK. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next CSM codex they outright say besides Black Legion there are no "Chaos Legions." -Not saying its a good thing, just the trajectory GW is on.
Yeah, I can't see the loyalist Primarchs returning en mass! Vulkan is supposedly a prisoner of that necron dude isn't he? Corax went nuts and flew off on his own. The Lion and Guilliman are both in situe at home. They aren't in a position to get the band back together. In fact I don't even see Russ coming back for Fenris 2, I think Magnus will come back there will be some serious gak going down and I am hoping he takes some names. Who knows we could even see Fenris becoming a Daemon world or something? With a future supplement being about Russ returning to free it from Chaos.
Its all make believe. GW can change anything they like to fit the model releases they have coming out and it'll be "official"
aka_mythos wrote: What I think is an interesting implication is the likely stronger refocusing of CSM around the big 4 Daemon Primarchs. I don't think GW wants any semblance of Chaos Legions in the 40k era. Black Legion is now really a mishmosh of the most dedicated Chaos Marines who have come together from any legion and where the only other flavor GW prescribes is non-Legion renegades like Crimson Slaughter and KDK. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next CSM codex they outright say besides Black Legion there are no "Chaos Legions." -Not saying its a good thing, just the trajectory GW is on.
Which makes zero sense when you look at the actual models and rules. Like what happened to their storm bolters? An item so common that the Imperium outfits their fething shipping containers with them, yet the Crimson Slaughter couldn't manage to maintain theirs? A huge part of CSM flavor comes from the fact that they use Heresy-era Legion equipment. But wait! They're not Legions. Makes no sense.
Nothing makes any sense with the CSM this days....
aka_mythos wrote: What I think is an interesting implication is the likely stronger refocusing of CSM around the big 4 Daemon Primarchs. I don't think GW wants any semblance of Chaos Legions in the 40k era. Black Legion is now really a mishmosh of the most dedicated Chaos Marines who have come together from any legion and where the only other flavor GW prescribes is non-Legion renegades like Crimson Slaughter and KDK. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next CSM codex they outright say besides Black Legion there are no "Chaos Legions." -Not saying its a good thing, just the trajectory GW is on.
Which makes zero sense when you look at the actual models and rules. Like what happened to their storm bolters? An item so common that the Imperium outfits their fething shipping containers with them, yet the Crimson Slaughter couldn't manage to maintain theirs? A huge part of CSM flavor comes from the fact that they use Heresy-era Legion equipment. But wait! They're not Legions. Makes no sense.
Nothing makes any sense with the CSM this days....
I guess that's what happens when you create a faction and then decide you don't like the idea behind them anymore.
aka_mythos wrote: What I think is an interesting implication is the likely stronger refocusing of CSM around the big 4 Daemon Primarchs. I don't think GW wants any semblance of Chaos Legions in the 40k era. Black Legion is now really a mishmosh of the most dedicated Chaos Marines who have come together from any legion and where the only other flavor GW prescribes is non-Legion renegades like Crimson Slaughter and KDK. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next CSM codex they outright say besides Black Legion there are no "Chaos Legions." -Not saying its a good thing, just the trajectory GW is on.
Which makes zero sense when you look at the actual models and rules. Like what happened to their storm bolters? An item so common that the Imperium outfits their fething shipping containers with them, yet the Crimson Slaughter couldn't manage to maintain theirs? A huge part of CSM flavor comes from the fact that they use Heresy-era Legion equipment. But wait! They're not Legions. Makes no sense.
It's a tricky one - striking the balance between (Chaos) Renegade Marines and their loyalist brothers. Otherwise Renegades could very easily become Marines++ with everything that the Loyalists have, PLUS Daemonic allies and cool Chaos-flavoured toys. I mean, where do we draw the line? Storm Bolters or Centurions? I agree that there should be something, but it's tricky trying to define something rules-wise that works for post-heresy chapters - between the guys just declared Excommunicate Traitoris last week and the Astral Claws/Red Corsairs or where chapters like the Relictors fit in.
Which is why, really, CSM should have remained the book for actual Chaos Space Marines, ie the ones derived from the original Legions(whether they still follow those original doctrines strictly or not), and Renegades should have been a supplement for the Space Marine codex with some minor tweaks & generic tactics for "recent defectors"(less Landspeeders/flyers, maybe a couple of slightly dodgy relics) and dedicated, FW-style Chapter Tactics, gear, Relics, & fluff for the special case Renegades like Red Corsairs/Relictors. Or they could have just left Renegades to FW entirely.
Regardless, all the plot holes and logical inconsistencies GW have to deal with presently regarding Chaos are of their own making; if they weren't so keen to disown their own legacy, they wouldn't be stuck trying to explain(or pointedly ignoring) the Extremely Specific Equipment Failure problem, or why when time passes differently in the Warp and for many CSM it's only been a few(subjective) centuries since the Heresy they've all forgotten/abandoned their Heresy-era attitudes and styles of war.
aka_mythos wrote: What I think is an interesting implication is the likely stronger refocusing of CSM around the big 4 Daemon Primarchs. I don't think GW wants any semblance of Chaos Legions in the 40k era. Black Legion is now really a mishmosh of the most dedicated Chaos Marines who have come together from any legion and where the only other flavor GW prescribes is non-Legion renegades like Crimson Slaughter and KDK. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next CSM codex they outright say besides Black Legion there are no "Chaos Legions." -Not saying its a good thing, just the trajectory GW is on.
Which makes zero sense when you look at the actual models and rules. Like what happened to their storm bolters? An item so common that the Imperium outfits their fething shipping containers with them, yet the Crimson Slaughter couldn't manage to maintain theirs? A huge part of CSM flavor comes from the fact that they use Heresy-era Legion equipment. But wait! They're not Legions. Makes no sense.
Nothing makes any sense with the CSM this days....
I guess that's what happens when you create a faction and then decide you don't like the idea behind them anymore.
No, when you create a faction then decide you don't like the idea behind them anymore, they get Squatted.
Well, what if GW did (or are doing) like what they did with the space marines. You have Codex:Chaos space marines, which has all the stuff you need to play god specific/renegades/generic CSM and then abit later the released Codex:Traitor Legions? I would love if they got the generic CSM sorted out then dropped a specific book oriented towards the different legion with their own formations, detachments, and wargear.
Anyways, super glad that the 1k sons seem to getting some love and I HOPE oh do I that it better than what IG got in Mont'ka.
Ir0njack wrote: Well, what if GW did (or are doing) like what they did with the space marines. You have Codex:Chaos space marines, which has all the stuff you need to play god specific/renegades/generic CSM and then abit later the released Codex:Traitor Legions? I would love if they got the generic CSM sorted out then dropped a specific book oriented towards the different legion with their own formations, detachments, and wargear.
Anyways, super glad that the 1k sons seem to getting some love and I HOPE oh do I that it better than what IG got in Mont'ka.
Agreed. GW has been putting out multiple SM codexes for several editions of 40k because they know it's neccessary if they want a chapters like Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultra Marines etc. to really be different. Trying to cram the greater amount of variety found in Chaos SM, heresy chapters, demons, renegades, cultists, etc. into just one book is always going to short change the Chaos SM.
Ir0njack wrote: Well, what if GW did (or are doing) like what they did with the space marines. You have Codex:Chaos space marines, which has all the stuff you need to play god specific/renegades/generic CSM and then abit later the released Codex:Traitor Legions? I would love if they got the generic CSM sorted out then dropped a specific book oriented towards the different legion with their own formations, detachments, and wargear.
Anyways, super glad that the 1k sons seem to getting some love and I HOPE oh do I that it better than what IG got in Mont'ka.
Agreed. GW has been putting out multiple SM codexes for several editions of 40k because they know it's neccessary if they want a chapters like Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultra Marines etc. to really be different. Trying to cram the greater amount of variety found in Chaos SM, heresy chapters, demons, renegades, cultists, etc. into just one book is always going to short change the Chaos SM.
yet when they tried in 3.5 people just went on the oh Iron warriors get x nerf them, I liked the Lotd in The campaign book, i liked the 3 lists in second ed. People will never be happy
aka_mythos wrote: What I think is an interesting implication is the likely stronger refocusing of CSM around the big 4 Daemon Primarchs. I don't think GW wants any semblance of Chaos Legions in the 40k era. Black Legion is now really a mishmosh of the most dedicated Chaos Marines who have come together from any legion and where the only other flavor GW prescribes is non-Legion renegades like Crimson Slaughter and KDK. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next CSM codex they outright say besides Black Legion there are no "Chaos Legions." -Not saying its a good thing, just the trajectory GW is on.
Which makes zero sense when you look at the actual models and rules. Like what happened to their storm bolters? An item so common that the Imperium outfits their fething shipping containers with them, yet the Crimson Slaughter couldn't manage to maintain theirs? A huge part of CSM flavor comes from the fact that they use Heresy-era Legion equipment. But wait! They're not Legions. Makes no sense.
It's a tricky one - striking the balance between (Chaos) Renegade Marines and their loyalist brothers. Otherwise Renegades could very easily become Marines++ with everything that the Loyalists have, PLUS Daemonic allies and cool Chaos-flavoured toys. I mean, where do we draw the line? Storm Bolters or Centurions? I agree that there should be something, but it's tricky trying to define something rules-wise that works for post-heresy chapters - between the guys just declared Excommunicate Traitoris last week and the Astral Claws/Red Corsairs or where chapters like the Relictors fit in.
Which is totally fine. CSM can be marines++ ruleswise on an individual basis as log as there is a higher points cost to level it out.
It's kind of to be expected exactly because they are basicly the same as loyalist marines except they get daemonic power boosts to boot.
And to an extent that already exists. A CSM squad with mark of Nurgle is basicly a more expensive yet tougher version of a SM tactical squad. However, the difference in power level lies in two things. First of all, SM just have more and better equipment. However, and this to me is the more important part, while CSM theoretically have these daemonic powers, they actually have little influence on the game.
T5 marines are obviously objectively better than T4 marines by raw numbers. However, the abundance of Str7+ and focus on high volume of fire has made the T5 marine mostly redundant. The result is that the T5 marine is tougher on paprr, but rarely is on the table.
The other marks suffer the same problem.
Mark of Tzeentch is a good buff in and of itself. However, the game has shifted and we see the usr of weapons with low AP but high Str and number of shots is becomig widespread. The result is that invul saves have become less important.
Case in point are terminators. They've got a good armor save and their weakness is suposed to be AP2. However, their invul save has become less valuable because it's not hard and most often more effective to put a large amount of wounds on them so they'll fail a armor save. And since invul saves aren't as valuable, neither are buffs to them.
Mark of Khorne and Slaanesh are just inherently good buffs, but melee is just a straight up unfeasable approach to armybuilding compared to shooting. So these marks become redundant because they support a nigh unusable playstyle.
Hulksmash wrote: Most of the not dead loyalists make as much sense returning as Russ. The only exception being the "dead" but healing Guileman. As he actually supposedly died....
I think the difficulty of the other loyalist primarchs is that its alot easier to say all the Chaos Primarchs decided to launch an offensive than it is to say... after 10,000 years out of pure coincidence this primarch awakens, and this primarch decides to get over his mental health issues, and this primarch... etc. I think bringing the Daemon Primarchs works well in the narrative and heightens tension, but the loyalist primarchs returning is something that should take time.
What I think is an interesting implication is the likely stronger refocusing of CSM around the big 4 Daemon Primarchs. I don't think GW wants any semblance of Chaos Legions in the 40k era. Black Legion is now really a mishmosh of the most dedicated Chaos Marines who have come together from any legion and where the only other flavor GW prescribes is non-Legion renegades like Crimson Slaughter and KDK. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next CSM codex they outright say besides Black Legion there are no "Chaos Legions." -Not saying its a good thing, just the trajectory GW is on.
Yeah, I can't see the loyalist Primarchs returning en mass! Vulkan is supposedly a prisoner of that necron dude isn't he? Corax went nuts and flew off on his own. The Lion and Guilliman are both in situe at home. They aren't in a position to get the band back together. In fact I don't even see Russ coming back for Fenris 2, I think Magnus will come back there will be some serious gak going down and I am hoping he takes some names. Who knows we could even see Fenris becoming a Daemon world or something? With a future supplement being about Russ returning to free it from Chaos.
I dunno on Vulkan being a prisoner of Trazyn.
The dude is said to be in baroque armor. That sounds more like Dorn to me.
Hulksmash wrote: Most of the not dead loyalists make as much sense returning as Russ. The only exception being the "dead" but healing Guileman. As he actually supposedly died....
I think the difficulty of the other loyalist primarchs is that its alot easier to say all the Chaos Primarchs decided to launch an offensive than it is to say... after 10,000 years out of pure coincidence this primarch awakens, and this primarch decides to get over his mental health issues, and this primarch... etc. I think bringing the Daemon Primarchs works well in the narrative and heightens tension, but the loyalist primarchs returning is something that should take time.
What I think is an interesting implication is the likely stronger refocusing of CSM around the big 4 Daemon Primarchs. I don't think GW wants any semblance of Chaos Legions in the 40k era. Black Legion is now really a mishmosh of the most dedicated Chaos Marines who have come together from any legion and where the only other flavor GW prescribes is non-Legion renegades like Crimson Slaughter and KDK. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next CSM codex they outright say besides Black Legion there are no "Chaos Legions." -Not saying its a good thing, just the trajectory GW is on.
Yeah, I can't see the loyalist Primarchs returning en mass! Vulkan is supposedly a prisoner of that necron dude isn't he? Corax went nuts and flew off on his own. The Lion and Guilliman are both in situe at home. They aren't in a position to get the band back together. In fact I don't even see Russ coming back for Fenris 2, I think Magnus will come back there will be some serious gak going down and I am hoping he takes some names. Who knows we could even see Fenris becoming a Daemon world or something? With a future supplement being about Russ returning to free it from Chaos.
I dunno on Vulkan being a prisoner of Trazyn.
The dude is said to be in baroque armor. That sounds more like Dorn to me.
I've never understood why everyone thinks that's a Primarch. It could be literally any old Marine with fancy armour.
DaPino wrote: Which is totally fine. CSM can be marines++ ruleswise on an individual basis as log as there is a higher points cost to level it out.
He's refering more to syndrome of having same options AND more.
Imagine you have codex X. It has units A, B, C.
Then you introduce codex Y. It has units A, B, C, D.
By definition codex Y is superior to codex X. There's no reason whatsoever to field codex X when you have codex that has same units plus one more. Even if unit D is inefficient using codex Y is not going to hurt you.
If chaos gets access to all the toys SM has and daemonic stuff as well...
And it's kinda hard to make CSM troopers cost more because there's another unit in the codex...
This has been problem with dark angels and blood angels. At their core they used to be codex chapters but with couple extra units. For example how you make basic marine codex meaningful if dark angels have same stuff(logically they basically should have...) but also have deathwing and ravenwing units? Even if those suck you don't have to use.
At least now chapter tactics add some reason though that adds whole lot of new issues(codex hopping, driving certain chapters even more into certain shape like white scars that are now all bikes despite tactical marines being core of them etc).
Hulksmash wrote: Most of the not dead loyalists make as much sense returning as Russ. The only exception being the "dead" but healing Guileman. As he actually supposedly died....
I think the difficulty of the other loyalist primarchs is that its alot easier to say all the Chaos Primarchs decided to launch an offensive than it is to say... after 10,000 years out of pure coincidence this primarch awakens, and this primarch decides to get over his mental health issues, and this primarch... etc. I think bringing the Daemon Primarchs works well in the narrative and heightens tension, but the loyalist primarchs returning is something that should take time.
What I think is an interesting implication is the likely stronger refocusing of CSM around the big 4 Daemon Primarchs. I don't think GW wants any semblance of Chaos Legions in the 40k era. Black Legion is now really a mishmosh of the most dedicated Chaos Marines who have come together from any legion and where the only other flavor GW prescribes is non-Legion renegades like Crimson Slaughter and KDK. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next CSM codex they outright say besides Black Legion there are no "Chaos Legions." -Not saying its a good thing, just the trajectory GW is on.
Yeah, I can't see the loyalist Primarchs returning en mass! Vulkan is supposedly a prisoner of that necron dude isn't he? Corax went nuts and flew off on his own. The Lion and Guilliman are both in situe at home. They aren't in a position to get the band back together. In fact I don't even see Russ coming back for Fenris 2, I think Magnus will come back there will be some serious gak going down and I am hoping he takes some names. Who knows we could even see Fenris becoming a Daemon world or something? With a future supplement being about Russ returning to free it from Chaos.
I dunno on Vulkan being a prisoner of Trazyn.
The dude is said to be in baroque armor. That sounds more like Dorn to me.
I've never understood why everyone thinks that's a Primarch. It could be literally any old Marine with fancy armour.
I always thought it was a captain general of the Adeptus Custodes
DaPino wrote: Which is totally fine. CSM can be marines++ ruleswise on an individual basis as log as there is a higher points cost to level it out.
He's refering more to syndrome of having same options AND more.
Imagine you have codex X. It has units A, B, C.
Then you introduce codex Y. It has units A, B, C, D.
By definition codex Y is superior to codex X. There's no reason whatsoever to field codex X when you have codex that has same units plus one more. Even if unit D is inefficient using codex Y is not going to hurt you.
If chaos gets access to all the toys SM has and daemonic stuff as well...
And it's kinda hard to make CSM troopers cost more because there's another unit in the codex...
This has been problem with dark angels and blood angels. At their core they used to be codex chapters but with couple extra units. For example how you make basic marine codex meaningful if dark angels have same stuff(logically they basically should have...) but also have deathwing and ravenwing units? Even if those suck you don't have to use.
At least now chapter tactics add some reason though that adds whole lot of new issues(codex hopping, driving certain chapters even more into certain shape like white scars that are now all bikes despite tactical marines being core of them etc).
No one is asking for Marines++, or 'Codex Marines + Spikes' or anything of that nature...
The problem since 2007 and on has simply been that GW (or rather, Jervis) have simply ignored the fact that above all else, Chaos Marines are simply yet another flavour of what is still a basic Space Marine army.
Chaos Marines are the game's worst army, simply because GW refuses to give them the same basic rules requirements that make Loyalists work... 40k at a fundamental level punishes any army that's composed of elite infantry who are generalists, vs. anyone who can take specialisation and/or redundancy.
Marines simply pay up front too much for their wide array of opportunity costs, hence the development of things like Chapter Tactics, PotMS, invuln saves for Termies, ect...
More so than simply being 3-4 editions out of touch with the game, Chaos Marines suffer because they're not given ANY of the basic rules that allow Marines to make-up for their inflated opportunity costs, while also suffering from the game's worst case of wargear creep.
On the fluff side of things, it also makes 0 sense that while no longer the organised Legions of old, Night Lords should still fight in a completely manner than Iron Warriors, while somehow, the Alpha Legion is suddenly just as fanatical & dedicated to the Dark Gods as the Word Bearers!
Chaos players in general don't want 'Legion Tactics' & new wargear options to simply become the next Eldar++. Rather, we want Legion Tactics because it fits the background of the army, AND, having those additional rules effectively 'for free', is the only way to make the army playable.
Just look at the difference between the basic Land Raider for Loyalists vs. Chaos...
The former has the added critical PotMS rule that allows what is a combination of main battle tank + heavy assault transport to viably function, in a rules set that otherwise doesn't allow for such a concept. The latter doesn't, and hence, is to the point that it's unplayable due to the opportunity costs that actively punish the player for taking it.
Kanluwen wrote: So is there any actual news, or is this just the E626 CSM Pity Party again?
I'm gonna make a wild guess on door number two...given that the same individual just graced another thread with a complaint about rules that literally have not even been leaked yet.
DaPino wrote: Which is totally fine. CSM can be marines++ ruleswise on an individual basis as log as there is a higher points cost to level it out.
He's refering more to syndrome of having same options AND more.
Imagine you have codex X. It has units A, B, C.
Then you introduce codex Y. It has units A, B, C, D.
By definition codex Y is superior to codex X. There's no reason whatsoever to field codex X when you have codex that has same units plus one more. Even if unit D is inefficient using codex Y is not going to hurt you.
If chaos gets access to all the toys SM has and daemonic stuff as well...
And it's kinda hard to make CSM troopers cost more because there's another unit in the codex...
This has been problem with dark angels and blood angels. At their core they used to be codex chapters but with couple extra units. For example how you make basic marine codex meaningful if dark angels have same stuff(logically they basically should have...) but also have deathwing and ravenwing units? Even if those suck you don't have to use.
At least now chapter tactics add some reason though that adds whole lot of new issues(codex hopping, driving certain chapters even more into certain shape like white scars that are now all bikes despite tactical marines being core of them etc).
No one is asking for Marines++, or 'Codex Marines + Spikes' or anything of that nature...
The problem since 2007 and on has simply been that GW (or rather, Jervis) have simply ignored the fact that above all else, Chaos Marines are simply yet another flavour of what is still a basic Space Marine army.
Chaos Marines are the game's worst army, simply because GW refuses to give them the same basic rules requirements that make Loyalists work... 40k at a fundamental level punishes any army that's composed of elite infantry who are generalists, vs. anyone who can take specialisation and/or redundancy.
Marines simply pay up front too much for their wide array of opportunity costs, hence the development of things like Chapter Tactics, PotMS, invuln saves for Termies, ect...
More so than simply being 3-4 editions out of touch with the game, Chaos Marines suffer because they're not given ANY of the basic rules that allow Marines to make-up for their inflated opportunity costs, while also suffering from the game's worst case of wargear creep.
On the fluff side of things, it also makes 0 sense that while no longer the organised Legions of old, Night Lords should still fight in a completely manner than Iron Warriors, while somehow, the Alpha Legion is suddenly just as fanatical & dedicated to the Dark Gods as the Word Bearers!
Chaos players in general don't want 'Legion Tactics' & new wargear options to simply become the next Eldar++. Rather, we want Legion Tactics because it fits the background of the army, AND, having those additional rules effectively 'for free', is the only way to make the army playable.
Just look at the difference between the basic Land Raider for Loyalists vs. Chaos...
The former has the added critical PotMS rule that allows what is a combination of main battle tank + heavy assault transport to viably function, in a rules set that otherwise doesn't allow for such a concept. The latter doesn't, and hence, is to the point that it's unplayable due to the opportunity costs that actively punish the player for taking it.
I think also that unlike the Chapters the traitor legions now have a rather warband structure. If a chapter goes traitor, infighting is bound to happen as they are no longer beholden to the imperuim. and then you probably need level of fallen.
You could have a chapter that just want to defend humanity and see the Imperuim as stagnant doing more harm then good, yes they have gone rogue. but they have not gone over to chaos exactly have they.
Then you get a chapter or something subtlety influenced by chaos, maybe some of its high ranking members are but the rest still believe that they are not tainted, maybe they even think they are still following the codex astartes.
Then you get those who think they haven't fallen but have. maybe they are the Military arm of the Horosians or Xanthanites, Yet they could look as evil as can be but still remain pure of heart.
Then you get people like Huron, grudgingly pushed into chaos ( unless the story's changed) an arrogant leader ultimately damned his followers to darkness.
Finally you get the traitor legions. some are obviously more devout and each have their weaknesses and strengths. But its very rare we actually get more than a nod. Look at the dark apostle, and the ironsmith, they've become generic now. any Legion or Warband could get one.
Now the same goes for Iron fathers and once upon a time the iron hands did not have a chapter master, yet now they do depending on what book you read.
Chaos used to be a favorite of mine, now i simply think of them as spiky 2nd class space marines. And that is a shame as so much could be done.
A single marine from a traitor legion would have a multitude of skills, Hes been alive centuries. Hes basically a commando, yet they are never ever going to be done that way because they do not want the bad ones being better than the non, but they should be, they should be expensive in points but be very very mean. If there were thousands of you now like 100, maybe or less, you would pick up plasma pistols, anything wouldn't you?, no ill just have this boltgun and ignore the 100's of weapons that have dropped and are still functioning.
You need meat shields fine, cultists, or dregs or mutants, whatever, but Give CSM what they deserve to be. There is a balance and I honestly do not see it coming.
You get a book that makes nobody happy. The chaos book should be big yes but, and a big but here, if chaos got the treatment it needed it should be, it needs to be or they are a sub par faction that, plays second fiddle to newer less trained recruits.
Kanluwen wrote: So is there any actual news, or is this just the E626 CSM Pity Party again?
Is there any actual news or just whining about Chaos players' hopes for the future?
Chaos players aren't allowed to tell the truth or make sense according to some.
Every time we ask or dare to hope for something, the vocal Chaos-haters will always take it as either needless whining at imaginary problems, or else it's just us filthy Chaos players automatically wanting to be OP & auto-win like we were in the 3.5ed days.
Kanluwen wrote: So is there any actual news, or is this just the E626 CSM Pity Party again?
Is there any actual news or just whining about Chaos players' hopes for the future?
Chaos players aren't allowed to tell the truth or make sense according to some.
Every time we ask or dare to hope for something, the vocal Chaos-haters will always take it as either needless whining at imaginary problems, or else it's just us filthy Chaos players automatically wanting to be OP & auto-win like we were in the 3.5ed days.
Right, because that's why I made the comment I did.
Has nothing to do with threads basically getting hijacked by your complaints.
If you want to have a go at discussing what you think is wrong with the book or what you would like to see in a future one? By all means, make a thread for it!
Kanluwen wrote: So is there any actual news, or is this just the E626 CSM Pity Party again?
Is there any actual news or just whining about Chaos players' hopes for the future?
There's "talking about your hopes for the future" and then there's taking every chance to complain about the present and past.
Out of interest, is there any way for people to discuss a subject in anything less than 100% glowing terms that you'd find acceptable Kan? Because most of your contributions these days seem to be complaining about other people being off topic, or not discussing the topic in a way you like, or continuing to discuss a topic after you personally have stopped and no longer want to - come on chief, you used to put some effort into your rampant contrarianism, it's like you're not even trying these days...
Kanluwen wrote: So is there any actual news, or is this just the E626 CSM Pity Party again?
So is that an honest question, or are you just being needlessly combative? If the former is true, I think a quick scan of the new posts allows for an answer in the negative.
The problem with CSM is and will always be the 3.5 codex. The 3.5 codex made CSM into super cool legion badasses and the studio is now literally terrified of allowing Chaos Legions in the IP, both in background and in rules. Let's face it. Chaos Legions are awesome. Think a SM chapter is kewl? Well a SM Legion is 1000x kewler! Too bad they don't exist anymore! Unless you're Chaos, that is! Oh and did I mention we still have our primarchs? And they're all immortal ultrabadass daemons too?
So basically with the 3.5 codex CSM committed the cardinal sin of villainy - the villians became cooler than the heroes. As punishment they will be forever damned to mediocrity and blah. And everyone who got into the army with 3.5 will be forever left scratching their head wondering where their badass army went.
Kanluwen wrote: So is there any actual news, or is this just the E626 CSM Pity Party again?
Is there any actual news or just whining about Chaos players' hopes for the future?
There's "talking about your hopes for the future" and then there's taking every chance to complain about the present and past.
So it isn't so much about being off-topic (which he was, sort of) but rather a personal axe you have to grind with Experiment626? Yeah, he is bitter. Yeah, he is vocal about it. But what you take for endless bitching and a "pity party" I see as passion. He's a CSM player and he's passionate about them. No other army save Sisters of Battle has been neglected as long as CSM and none save Space Marines and the Guard play such a large role in the lore. Many people who played during Chaos' glory days were fortunate enough to have alternate armies, but some were not. Many of those have likely left the game for comparatively greener pastures, but some have stayed. And yes, they're unhappy with the state of things. I agree that it's sometimes like a broken record, but I can just skip over those posts and try and either add something else to the conversation or move on to another thread.
And if it *IS* about being off topic, then you've gotta realize that every thread goes off topic to some degree. Especially these news & rumours threads where there's a lull between heresay and confirmation. A thread about an upcoming Chaos veering off into what we hope for future releases isn't as grievous a transgression as it veering off into a discussion about my pet turtles and how their breath smells like turtle food, for example.
Lord Corellia wrote: So it isn't so much about being off-topic (which he was, sort of) but rather a personal axe you have to grind with Experiment626? Yeah, he is bitter. Yeah, he is vocal about it. But what you take for endless bitching and a "pity party" I see as passion. He's a CSM player and he's passionate about them. No other army save Sisters of Battle has been neglected as long as CSM and none save Space Marines and the Guard play such a large role in the lore. Many people who played during Chaos' glory days were fortunate enough to have alternate armies, but some were not. Many of those have likely left the game for comparatively greener pastures, but some have stayed. And yes, they're unhappy with the state of things. I agree that it's sometimes like a broken record, but I can just skip over those posts and try and either add something else to the conversation or move on to another thread.
And if it *IS* about being off topic, then you've gotta realize that every thread goes off topic to some degree. Especially these news & rumours threads where there's a lull between heresay and confirmation. A thread about an upcoming Chaos veering off into what we hope for future releases isn't as grievous a transgression as it veering off into a discussion about my pet turtles and how their breath smells like turtle food, for example.
You see passion, I see automated macro copy&paste that gets pasted automatically into every single thread remotely related to 40k.
You don't need to even read his texts anymore. He simply keeps saying same things over and over again. Seen them once, you know 100% what he's going to say in future.
Lord Corellia wrote: So it isn't so much about being off-topic (which he was, sort of) but rather a personal axe you have to grind with Experiment626? Yeah, he is bitter. Yeah, he is vocal about it. But what you take for endless bitching and a "pity party" I see as passion. He's a CSM player and he's passionate about them. No other army save Sisters of Battle has been neglected as long as CSM and none save Space Marines and the Guard play such a large role in the lore. Many people who played during Chaos' glory days were fortunate enough to have alternate armies, but some were not. Many of those have likely left the game for comparatively greener pastures, but some have stayed. And yes, they're unhappy with the state of things. I agree that it's sometimes like a broken record, but I can just skip over those posts and try and either add something else to the conversation or move on to another thread.
And if it *IS* about being off topic, then you've gotta realize that every thread goes off topic to some degree. Especially these news & rumours threads where there's a lull between heresay and confirmation. A thread about an upcoming Chaos veering off into what we hope for future releases isn't as grievous a transgression as it veering off into a discussion about my pet turtles and how their breath smells like turtle food, for example.
You see passion, I see automated macro copy&paste that gets pasted automatically into every single thread remotely related to 40k.
You don't need to even read his texts anymore. He simply keeps saying same things over and over again. Seen them once, you know 100% what he's going to say in future.
If it really bothers you that much, Dakka does have an ignore feature.
Back OT, here are my predictions for this release:
1. Magnus will cost 999 pts.
2. His daemon primarch rules from GW will be worse than his primarch rules from FW.
3. Thousand Sons rules will remain unchanged.
4. CSM will get a decurion. The bonuses will be Hatred, reroll Chaos Boons and reroll Warlord Trait if you roll on the CSM table.
5. There will be a formation consisting of 9 units of Thousand Sons. It will give all their attacks Warpflame.
I hope they release Russ and bring back the primarchs. The models would be fantastic and would be a good excuse to advance the timeline and bring out new kits. Wasn't Russ one of the first 40k models back in rogue trader days?
Lord Corellia wrote: So it isn't so much about being off-topic (which he was, sort of) but rather a personal axe you have to grind with Experiment626? Yeah, he is bitter. Yeah, he is vocal about it. But what you take for endless bitching and a "pity party" I see as passion. He's a CSM player and he's passionate about them. No other army save Sisters of Battle has been neglected as long as CSM and none save Space Marines and the Guard play such a large role in the lore. Many people who played during Chaos' glory days were fortunate enough to have alternate armies, but some were not. Many of those have likely left the game for comparatively greener pastures, but some have stayed. And yes, they're unhappy with the state of things. I agree that it's sometimes like a broken record, but I can just skip over those posts and try and either add something else to the conversation or move on to another thread.
And if it *IS* about being off topic, then you've gotta realize that every thread goes off topic to some degree. Especially these news & rumours threads where there's a lull between heresay and confirmation. A thread about an upcoming Chaos veering off into what we hope for future releases isn't as grievous a transgression as it veering off into a discussion about my pet turtles and how their breath smells like turtle food, for example.
You see passion, I see automated macro copy&paste that gets pasted automatically into every single thread remotely related to 40k.
You don't need to even read his texts anymore. He simply keeps saying same things over and over again. Seen them once, you know 100% what he's going to say in future.
If it really bothers you that much, Dakka does have an ignore feature.
Back OT, here are my predictions for this release:
1. Magnus will cost 999 pts.
2. His daemon primarch rules from GW will be worse than his primarch rules from FW.
3. Thousand Sons rules will remain unchanged.
4. CSM will get a decurion. The bonuses will be Hatred, reroll Chaos Boons and reroll Warlord Trait if you roll on the CSM table.
5. There will be a formation consisting of 9 units of Thousand Sons. It will give all their attacks Warpflame.
You're gonna jinx it even more than it probably already is. 1 is so probable that it isn't even funny. Especially given how Aetaos'rau'keres already costs that much. I'd be genuinely surprised if he DIDN'T cost 999.
And 3 to 5 feels scarily accurate. Although I'd expect free gifts of mutation rather then hatred, though both seem to make equally little sense.
Meanwhile I'm praying they at least get their the immunity to strength 4 and below back.
Lord Corellia wrote: So it isn't so much about being off-topic (which he was, sort of) but rather a personal axe you have to grind with Experiment626? Yeah, he is bitter. Yeah, he is vocal about it. But what you take for endless bitching and a "pity party" I see as passion. He's a CSM player and he's passionate about them. No other army save Sisters of Battle has been neglected as long as CSM and none save Space Marines and the Guard play such a large role in the lore. Many people who played during Chaos' glory days were fortunate enough to have alternate armies, but some were not. Many of those have likely left the game for comparatively greener pastures, but some have stayed. And yes, they're unhappy with the state of things. I agree that it's sometimes like a broken record, but I can just skip over those posts and try and either add something else to the conversation or move on to another thread.
And if it *IS* about being off topic, then you've gotta realize that every thread goes off topic to some degree. Especially these news & rumours threads where there's a lull between heresay and confirmation. A thread about an upcoming Chaos veering off into what we hope for future releases isn't as grievous a transgression as it veering off into a discussion about my pet turtles and how their breath smells like turtle food, for example.
You see passion, I see automated macro copy&paste that gets pasted automatically into every single thread remotely related to 40k.
You don't need to even read his texts anymore. He simply keeps saying same things over and over again. Seen them once, you know 100% what he's going to say in future.
If it really bothers you that much, Dakka does have an ignore feature.
Back OT, here are my predictions for this release:
1. Magnus will cost 999 pts.
2. His daemon primarch rules from GW will be worse than his primarch rules from FW.
3. Thousand Sons rules will remain unchanged.
4. CSM will get a decurion. The bonuses will be Hatred, reroll Chaos Boons and reroll Warlord Trait if you roll on the CSM table.
5. There will be a formation consisting of 9 units of Thousand Sons. It will give all their attacks Warpflame.
You're gonna jinx it even more than it probably already is. 1 is so probable that it isn't even funny. Especially given how Aetaos'rau'keres already costs that much. I'd be genuinely surprised if he DIDN'T cost 999.
And 3 to 5 feels scarily accurate. Although I'd expect free gifts of mutation rather then hatred, though both seem to make equally little sense.
Meanwhile I'm praying they at least get their the immunity to strength 4 and below back.
Ah, but you forgot it'll be 999pts AND no GMC status, so he can be easily taken out by the big bad 'D'.
And here's an idea, what if taking Magnus is how GW will give actual buffs to Thousand Sons?!
So Loyalists will get their Chapter Tactics baked into every model, while the Chaos versions will instead center entirely around having a 300-500+ points sink, which once it (likely very quickly) copes it, you can say bye-bye to ALL your built-in bonuses!
I think bringing back primarchs is a duff idea and one that has a whiff of "the creative well is dry". These are, within the background, mythical Demi gods and to see them leading a force of 35 marines, a rhino and a land speeder is a bit......underwhelming.
If it's mega boss vs mega boss, then fair enough, but do the current rules engine fit this level of power character appropriately into the game? They certainly weren't designed to and are creaking at the edges trying to fit all this big stuff in.
Game needs a damned good clean and bleaching, then a decision made on what it wants to be. Maybe an End Times is a good thing to happen. Start again and do away with legacy issues.
If they make magnus 999 points just for the fluff of it, all of his stats better be 9 just for the fluff of it. Also mastery level 9 just for the fluff of it. Also 9 weapons to choose from and 9 disciplines to choose from. Auto charges 9".
He should also cost 999 dollars as well as your first 9 children. and every csm player in the world who wants to use him is forced to pay that amount in 9 installments over 9 months on the 9th of every month. You are also only allowed to buy 9 of the models. Can't buy 1 or 2 or 7 or 13. If you buy 18 or 27 of them you must refer to them as "groups of 9" otherwise a gw employee will kick you out of the store and lash you with a 9 tailed whip. Magnus cannot be included in lists unless there's 9 of him. You auto lose the game if less than 9 of him are on the table at any point, or if any of their stats are dropped below 9 or raised above it. Any units included with a magnus list have to be in 9 units of 9 models. If you break one of your magnus models, 9 lords of change will materialize in front of you and whisk you away to GWHQ, where your mind will be split into 9 and the fractions will begin work immediately as GW's new rule writers exclusively for chaos for the next 9 years.
Disclaimer: I'm not a fan of the "Hey guys! Deeeeerp! Sacred numbers are their points! Deeeeerp!" philosophy. It's a brilliant showcase of GW not taking their game as seriously as their customers do. In seriousness, I don't expect magnus to cost that much points. For one thing, he hates tzeentch. For another thing, they soon have to do something to keep from pushing csm players away from their products. If he costs that many points it doesn't matter how good he is... he will still be a mostly unattractive choice, because people like to use their collections in games.
I know I'm getting close to simply not paying attention to csm rumours anymore. It's getting difficult to give 9 damns about them any longer.
The whole sacred numbers as a point cost thing pretty much ruined FW's named greater daemons and the GW Khorne Lawn Mower... Why is something that is fictionally beneficial such a point bloated disadvantage? IF it's something GW wants to insist on maybe just make it the overall point cost of some fixed formation of Magnus and his closest sorcerers.
It's a daemon primarch, if any unit should be that expensive, it's a daemon primarch. I'm not an expert on lore but from what I understand they are an order of magnitude stronger than their mortal versions, which were already super powerful. Anything less than 500 points would be insulting.
Considering most FW Primarchs are 350-500 points in cost (depending on how tough they are, the buffs they give, etc.), Daemon Magnus should cost at least 100-150 points more than that if he gets the lowest amount of treatment deserved.
But he'll be 999 without enough rules & stats to justifiy it because KAYOS.
Perhaps Magnus has no cost, but can only be fielded with a summoning spell that all thousand sons in a certain formation know (formation beeing made of 9 units of 9 sons each )
Or He is summoned by 9 suicide sorcerers.
GW could be creative with sacred numbers
Perhaps he comes in a set formation that has a total cost of 999 points. Kinda like the Eight formation from Farsight Enclaves, only it is Magnus and some Sorcerers, maybe some 1KSons.
Nah! Don't forget that all of GW's giant monsters, from Carnifexes to Greater Daemons, have the astonishingly high toughness value of 6! Any higher and Marines wouldn't be able to hurt them in HTH combat, and we can't have the game's protagonists being unable to kill the dime'a'dozen antagonists, now can we?
Nah! Don't forget that all of GW's giant monsters, from Carnifexes to Greater Daemons, have the astonishingly high toughness value of 6! Any higher and Marines wouldn't be able to hurt them in HTH combat, and we can't have the game's protagonists being unable to kill the dime'a'dozen antagonists, now can we?
CSM daemon princes have Toughness 5. Because they're SM Opponent with Training Wheels.
IIRC T7 is immune to lasfire, which seems wrong for flesh and blood monsters. T8 is immune to bolterfire- effectively AV 11 with no damage table- and is usually compounded with an armour/invuln save.
T6 is the upper limit of what small arms can affect and so most MC hover here.
A las shot at BS3 delivers 0.028 wounds to a T5/6, Sv3 creature.
30 guardsmen(150 points) FRF at 12 inches still won't get you the 100 shots you statistically need to turn that into 2.8 wounds.
=Angel= wrote: IIRC T7 is immune to lasfire, which seems wrong for flesh and blood monsters. T8 is immune to bolterfire- effectively AV 11 with no damage table- and is usually compounded with an armour/invuln save.
T6 is the upper limit of what small arms can affect and so most MC hover here.
A las shot at BS3 delivers 0.028 wounds to a T5/6, Sv3 creature.
30 guardsmen(150 points) FRF at 12 inches still won't get you the 100 shots you statistically need to turn that into 2.8 wounds.
Wraithlords and Wraithknights are T8. But I guess that's ok because we all know they're really vehicles.
Guys, guys, you're all forgetting the single most important part about Magnus... He'll be 999pts, with no immunity to Instant Death, AND, he'll be how GW decides to buff 1kSons with new rules!
So now, taking Magnus will give Thousand Sons & all MoT units additional rules X/Y/Z (similar to Chapter Tactics).
However, to keep things good and 'balanced', he'll be 100% required in order to even field Thousand Sons, and once he dies all his bonuses will cease to affect 1kSons/MoT units.
It's like a super fluffy version of those amazing Icon/Mark rules we had in our 4th ed book!
Experiment 626 wrote: Guys, guys, you're all forgetting the single most important part about Magnus... He'll be 999pts, with no immunity to Instant Death, AND, he'll be how GW decides to buff 1kSons with new rules!
So now, taking Magnus will give Thousand Sons & all MoT units additional rules X/Y/Z (similar to Chapter Tactics).
However, to keep things good and 'balanced', he'll be 100% required in order to even field Thousand Sons, and once he dies all his bonuses will cease to affect 1kSons/MoT units.
It's like a super fluffy version of those amazing Icon/Mark rules we had in our 4th ed book!
No, no, no, when Magnus dies, every single Thousand Sons and MoT unit in the army is sucked into the Warp with him (removed from play).
Oh please GW pleeeeeaaaaaaaaase give us new sisters. I have never wanted a faction update this badly, aside from new Templar kits and true codex of course.
Magnus and his Thousand Sons have long been my favorite legion, so this is all very exciting. Hopefully it isn't just a cruel tease. We've been waiting for plastic models ever since the super fiddly plastic/metal hybrids.
Also, as much as I like Magnus's pre-heresy design, I really hope his daemon form is more interesting than "pre-heresy + wings".
unmercifulconker wrote: Oh please GW pleeeeeaaaaaaaaase give us new sisters. I have never wanted a faction update this badly, aside from new Templar kits and true codex of course.
If they were getting a model update why would they need to photograph the existing metal studio minis?
Why would he be though? The new 'Thirster kit isn't FGC worthy, and I doubt that DP Magnus will be as big as a Stormsurge or Wraithknight. I also would not be surprised in the least if he keeps T5, since that's what GW has decided is the standard for Daemon Princes.
Besides, do you have any idea the kind of complete gakstorm that would ensue if Chaos got an actual LoW model that would for once be worth it's obnoxious pts cost?!
CSM's is at the point that we're not even an NPC army anymore - we're now more akin to the masses of Bokoblins/Bulblins/Stall Children that the Hero characters slaughter in droves to attain A-ranks in Hyrule Warriors. (or any Warriors game for that matter...)
As with all things Chaos, we've learned too many times to set our expectations at anything beyond steaming poop.
The 6th ed Daemons codex was probably just an accident, and really, if you remove Summoning, (which was purely a 7th ed rulebook boon), you'd instantly drop the power level of Daemons by quite a bit.
The CotW book brought some really awesome new toys, but those formations for the most part are just punishing...
What would've really made the Daemoncurion solidly playable is if we could have had a 'Herald Conclave' as a Command option. I've tried to run a pure Daemonic Incursion detachment with Tzeentch, but I just don't have enough Tzheralds to spread across the force.
It's a bad day when Smurfs are dropping more WC's than Tzeentch Daemons!
I just hope the new models are at the level of what the new Loyalist Marine lines are really, and that for once, we can get new kits that actually come with most/all of that unit's basic codex options!
I don't mind losing every game I play. (I'm really used to it after 15+ years of Chaos!)
But it would be nice for once to have a model line that isn't older than half the local Space Marine player base!
unmercifulconker wrote: Oh please GW pleeeeeaaaaaaaaase give us new sisters. I have never wanted a faction update this badly, aside from new Templar kits and true codex of course.
If they were getting a model update why would they need to photograph the existing metal studio minis?
Indeed. Most likely, they're just going to appear as the hapless victims in some Visions photos or BatRep.
Y'know, like every other time they've been missing from the case.
Y'know, cause GW loves having the majority female faction play the damsel in distress martyrs.
unmercifulconker wrote: Oh please GW pleeeeeaaaaaaaaase give us new sisters. I have never wanted a faction update this badly, aside from new Templar kits and true codex of course.
If they were getting a model update why would they need to photograph the existing metal studio minis?
Indeed. Most likely, they're just going to appear as the hapless victims in some Visions photos or BatRep.
Y'know, like every other time they've been missing from the case.
Y'know, cause GW loves having the majority female faction play the damsel in distress martyrs.
I'm seriously waiting for them to release a new unit that features Sisters chained to their stoves!
It means that GW will photograph the old models, i.e. it means no new SoB models for the foreseeable future, and as far as I can tell is unrelated to Warzone Fenris yet. Maybe they will be in it, maybe they will be somewhere else.
aka_mythos wrote: The whole sacred numbers as a point cost thing pretty much ruined FW's named greater daemons and the GW Khorne Lawn Mower... Why is something that is fictionally beneficial such a point bloated disadvantage? IF it's something GW wants to insist on maybe just make it the overall point cost of some fixed formation of Magnus and his closest sorcerers.
I honestly don't have a problem with the bloated "fluffy" sacred number points IF the units were actually worth the points. So far, NONE of the sacred number SH units for FW or 40KGW standard have stacked up to their far less expensive counterparts. The Khorne-mower would be fine as a super heavy that costs 888 points....if it was almost 3 times as capable and durable as a Imperial Knight or Wraithknight, which it clearly is not. Big SH/GMC models SHOULD be absurdly expensive because a daemon lord or primarch shouldn't be present except for the larger battles. Super heavy units in 40K standard is not the problem, CHEAP super heavy units in standard 40K is.
unmercifulconker wrote: Oh please GW pleeeeeaaaaaaaaase give us new sisters. I have never wanted a faction update this badly, aside from new Templar kits and true codex of course.
If they were getting a model update why would they need to photograph the existing metal studio minis?
Indeed. Most likely, they're just going to appear as the hapless victims in some Visions photos or BatRep.
Y'know, like every other time they've been missing from the case.
Y'know, cause GW loves having the majority female faction play the damsel in distress martyrs.
I'm seriously waiting for them to release a new unit that features Sisters chained to their stoves!
Seriously, I actually find it depressing how GW cant force themself to make a single human female (yeah, ok, there actually is a female assasin, still)
Hmmm...Sisters of Battle went for a campaign, heh?
Maybe at last, we will have a book with the Adepta Sororitas special detachment, formations and added rules like we did for Cadians in the Mont'ka campaign book.
I hope the rubrics get twin linked bolt weapons and the ability to take two heavy bolters with inferno bolts per every 5 tsons. Also I hope they give them access to the tzeentch daemon psychic table, and let them reroll saving throws of one. Give them the daemon of tzeentch rule. Aspiring sorceror gets free boon of mutation. Could let the tsons forgo their shooting to give the sorceror +1 warp charge and the ability to cast a power like vortex.
That still wouldn't get me to pick up sisters again. They need new models. Until they do that, that factions is pretty much dead to me. At least with CSM, as much as I'd like new sculpts/kits, they can get away with a new codex/formations and what have you.
unmercifulconker wrote: Oh please GW pleeeeeaaaaaaaaase give us new sisters. I have never wanted a faction update this badly, aside from new Templar kits and true codex of course.
If they were getting a model update why would they need to photograph the existing metal studio minis?
Indeed. Most likely, they're just going to appear as the hapless victims in some Visions photos or BatRep.
Y'know, like every other time they've been missing from the case.
Y'know, cause GW loves having the majority female faction play the damsel in distress martyrs.
I'm seriously waiting for them to release a new unit that features Sisters chained to their stoves!
Aren't we being a little overly dramatic here?
I will admit Sisters got screwed hard ;P. Seriously though i feel bad for them. I kind of feel like GW should've 'squatted' them a long time ago though. At this point there's just too many super faithful, ridiculously hopeful (or not) players that want an updated army and they're honestly probably never gonna get it. At this point Sisters need a 5th edition Dark Eldar makeover (because those ladies are now hideous though probably not dog-faced skaven hideous). A friend showed me some models in 'toughest girls of the galaxy' or something and i'm shocked how much better they do Sisters than GW does. At this point if GW axed Sisters it'd be yet another addition to the Fantasy players they already miffed when GW killed that game (and that was my primary game and i didn't play daemons so i couldn't just switch over).
Also guys be realistic. Chaos marines aren't going anywhere. The worst GW would do is to throw them in the vanilla codex or something and make them evil marines. That is the absolute worst. They are a main army. Sisters of battle however are sadly not and it probably wouldn't take much for GW to squat em or make them into a supplement force like militarum tempestus or mechanicus. All that said Tau get way too much attention for having less than 1% of the galaxy to themselves. It's a little ridiculous how they're even a threat at all with no warp travel or similar. Seriously they're not going to take much space that way. The imperium could easily out-travel them in space as could most factions. Realistically Tau should be a supplement faction but they're a top tier main army. Go figure.
As far as the topic is concerned i'm rooting for Thousand Sons even if they lose. Russ just seemed like a jerk from what little i knew of him. Sorry i don't follow the stories too much. Manly pre-pubescent man-boys in power armor doesn't make for compelling story to me.
Russ just seemed like a jerk from what little i knew of him. Sorry i don't follow the stories too much. Manly pre-pubescent man-boys in power armor doesn't make for compelling story to me.
Actually, he was a pretty nice guy. He just was as subtile and smart as a fenrisian tree.....
Sisters: They would deserve a real codex and a new model-line. I would start them, just because:
Imperator lo vult!
And CSM are in need of a new codex too. As well as Tyranids and Astra Milithingy. Glueing formations and unit-entrys on that unholy mess is no real solution.
Russ was literally a dog. Friendly, nice, and cared for those who he liked and trusted, but a snarling demon for those who threatened or betrayed his master.
We know the Wolves will keep Fenris, unless GW does some crazy twist.
Of course, none of us were expecting Magnus in plastic...
flamingkillamajig wrote: All that said Tau get way too much attention for having less than 1% of the galaxy to themselves.
There are more Tau in the galaxy than Space Marines. If you wanted to Squat anyone based on how "insignificant" they are on the galactic scale, then Space Marines would have to be the first to go, definitely.
And I like Sisters, probably more than most people do, and would really like to see them get a huge update and receive the same level of support that every other "main" faction does, but that support doesn't need to come at the cost of another faction. We don't need to remove factions to somehow "make room" for new ones. And if you really want to argue that the game is bloated with factions then all one needs to do is go and observe how literally half the armies in the game are just Marine variants, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out what needs to be done to "make room" for Sisters if that's the case. Fold all the Marines into one fething book and then we have tons of room left for more, actually interesting armies to put on the table.
Except that Marines aren't insignificant on a galactic scale. Some of the largest battles in human history have been won on the backs of the Marines. There's nothing insignificant about them.
The Tau on the other hand...
Anyway, I think we're rapidly approaching the "Pics or GTFO" portion of this thread. Without any real info (plastic Magnus? Come on...) this thread serves no real purpose.
The sources are reliable, and who would have imagined Genestealer Cults, Warhammer Quest making a return? And they did after getting rumored by the same people.
40k is getting 30, so they could have a lot of cool stuff in the pipeline for it.
And will Dark Angels and Grey Knights join forces with the Space Wolves against the Chaos forces later on?
Wulfen in WZF I, Thousand Sons to rumored in WZF II. With a fully painted studio Craftworld Ulthwe army appearing in the last Codex and Warhammer Visions lately will they take part in WZF as well? It doesnt have to mean new models but as part of the storyline and missions maybe?
A white raven appeared today and brought me a message - winter is coming ...
Warhammer 40k turns 30 years old next year. The new edition is due. The clock will be taken from 5 minutes to midnight to 1 minute to midnight with the return of the Daemonprimarchs - or will they return alone? This is the theme of the new setting - think along the lines of 13th Black Crusade - but this time, it's serious. They want to get the same excitement as the community had during the End Times - without actually going as far as Age of Sigmar did.
Chaos fans - this is your hour. Stop beeing grudgy, there will be lots of love for all of you - renegades, former legions, daemon lovers.
The lore already start to unfold, with the Shield of Baal and Warzone Fenris - so we are already within the action. As usual, this is a bit of an early talk, so stay cool and take it with a tiny bit of salt.
Thedarkprincesnun, on 27 Jun 2016 - 11:44 PM, said:
Will this coincide with a new csm codex by any chance
So basically I was right. This was all leading up to a big event. Not based on any one source but my speculation and evidence that they have dropped here and there in already published material.
Looking forward to blasting some Chaos Primarchs with my Ta'unar. The Danger Zero will answer the call.
I really want to see the new Chaos stuff. Muahah! What few people know is that I have a big respect for Tzeentch.
It would be fun to see the fluff put the Imperium on the backfoot in a big way. Also, if Chaos became big/powerful enough it's one of the few forces which could get everyone (outside of Nids...and maybe Orks) to unite against them, etc.
So it looks like some sort of new super Black Crusade is coming....
I think it's inevitable we'll see resurgence of all the typical enemies of the IoM. Looking forward to the Nids update. You know they're going to get some GMG's. The Hive mind angered with the resistance in the east by the IoM and Tau will no doubt have to cook up something terrifying.
I also still think the Eldar/Dark Eldar/All Eldar are plotting something relating with the Chaos Gods. They might be trying to kill/replace Slaanesh with their own Eldar god of death or something along those lines.
Now two things could happen if that occurs. It backfires and they add a 5th chaos god into the universe who hates them. Or they succeed enough that their race is resurgent. My bet is on option 1 or something suitable dark.
I think it's almost assured the gates of the Dark City will be breached and taken over by Chaos.
The Damocles Gulf is likely going to open up into a full blown warp rift (thanks AdMech -_- ).
That is all I can say I'm familiar enough to speculate about. It's evident the primarchs are returning (the ones alive).
Oh man, I can only hope that this is real. and that GW will do the legions (and others) justice. Give me good yet fluffy Iron warriors and my wallet is done for.
I hope that we see more from Warzone: Damocles and Shield of Baal. Specifically, the Tyranids reach the Baal System and the Khorne Daemons(more Khorne Daemonkin please!) led by Ka'banda attack at the same time. Not sure where they could go with Warzone Damocles.
Any chance of SoB's/witch hunters getting some love in this new and super duper 1 minute till midnight setting!? I mean if there was ever a time for needing to kill heretics in droves, this sounds like it!
casvalremdeikun wrote: I hope that we see more from Warzone: Damocles and Shield of Baal. Specifically, the Tyranids reach the Baal System and the Khorne Daemons(more Khorne Daemonkin please!) led by Ka'banda attack at the same time. Not sure where they could go with Warzone Damocles.
I have a few ideas, but first to organize my thoughts on text.
The Tau successfully predicted the emergence of warp ships and now know gravity fields affect their ability to enter an area. A fleet was destroyed as it exited the warp and the Tau fleet that did it detected strange energy readings from the "holes" the ships came through. They sent a science ship to investigate that had heaps of new information and data that never returned to any civilized port and as of the two books is unaccounted for.
The strange energies of the now burning damocles gulf seem to mimic or be pre-symptomatic to a full warp rift. At least that's the gist I got from the book.
The Tau are more or less cut off from expanding west barring some sort of technological invention. However there is still a huge chunk of the Tau army on the western side. We know there is an upcoming FW Tau vs IoM book that rumor has it will tie into the narrative of the Tau. It's quite likely they will attack the FW that is near the front lines. It's likely they want to find the technology responsible for all of this. I have a suspicion that the weapon used was warp based or had warp effects due to its ability to expand and burn the entire cluster of gas that was hard to navigate.
The Tau weather control plotline needs to be resolved or something. They were able to control raging weather and storms so that it was a raging rad storm a few meters form a sunny day. They used this in both books and its kinda confusing the hell out of me. I mean it could just be author fiat but it's also never been used before in any other Tau lore or fluff and is barely explained. I would even go so far as to use the words mysterious.
The Farsight Enclaves are fighting off an unexpected Tyranid hive fleet.
There are lots of prophecies of Farsight being some sort of chosen one, but I will admit he could be getting manipulated by Chaos. It is assumed a Grey Knight helped and is helping him decipher his future and be ready for it, but the grey knight could be an impostor. I find that less likely but it is a small possibility so feel I should mention it.
Sad Panda said that the Tau was the very tip of the start to this new change in the background lore. So all the hints are here we just have to decipher what they mean.
About time. Especially for a campaign CSM need to be fixed to be a viable threat. A new codex combined with a number of campaign books certainly points to Chaos Marines getting the full treatment with all the flavor and distinctiveness of the major sub-factions.
I mean, I know massive fluff changes are coming, but got I hope they don't retcon too much more. Then again: I play 30k, so so long as the system doesn't shoot itself in the foot (coughAOScough) whatevs. Here's to Deus Ex WolfenRuss taking out Magnus (who, knowing GW, will be devoid of all of his fun character) at the last minute :(
Given the new information from Atia I think I smell HERESY! I get the feeling the IoM and Tau have been goaded into fighting each other. They are now softened up badly in the region with the Tau and so are the Tau. We see the first signs of Tau warp research which I think can only end in disaster. Not only this but the book said it was weather control satellites but I don't think so. I have a feeling the Tau were using secret psykers.
I got a feeling someone is pulling the strings of the Tau and IoM in the gulf and that would be chaos related. Even the admiral of the fleet was hesitant to use the weapon the "tech priests" used on the planet that also wiped out his own soldiers and men and then ignited the region into a pre warp rift. Sounds more like a bunch of hereteks to me. Regular exterminatus would have sufficed without drawing on such strange weaponry.
So now the two forces are weak and there is a warp rift. And we know the time of Chaos is coming.
I think its a safe bet the Tau and much of the IoM is infiltrated on a grand scale.
A white raven appeared today and brought me a message - winter is coming ...
Warhammer 40k turns 30 years old next year. The new edition is due. The clock will be taken from 5 minutes to midnight to 1 minute to midnight with the return of the Daemonprimarchs - or will they return alone? This is the theme of the new setting - think along the lines of 13th Black Crusade - but this time, it's serious. They want to get the same excitement as the community had during the End Times - without actually going as far as Age of Sigmar did.
Chaos fans - this is your hour. Stop beeing grudgy, there will be lots of love for all of you - renegades, former legions, daemon lovers.
The lore already start to unfold, with the Shield of Baal and Warzone Fenris - so we are already within the action. As usual, this is a bit of an early talk, so stay cool and take it with a tiny bit of salt.
8e next year then, or is it 7.5? Either way, it hasn't been all that long since 7e dropped, only about 2 years ago now.
But, I'm excited for the future. I really hope the insinuation is that we might also see Loyalist Primarchs return as well. Plenty of them are still alive but "missing", and personally I think it'd be interesting to see them face off against Magnus, Lorgar, Mortarion, and the like.
I'm curious what happens if they bring back the lion. What effect that would have on the dark angels/fallen angels and cypher. I'm not exactly an expert on the lore, but I'm not entirely convinced the lion is a loyalist. At least not in the sense of serving what the imperium has become. I feel like we might get a few twists as far as fallen angels and alpha legion or maybe even night lords go.
The return of the Loyalist Primarchs would shatter the Imperium. The High Lords would declare them fakes to retain power and the Primarchs wouldn't tolerate the Imperium as it is.
It would be great to see some of the big Chapters turn solo if the Imperium goes wonky.
Storywise...everything has been mauled so much with retcons I don't really know what to think. As a whole, as I posted earlier, I'd like to see the Imperium on the back foot a whole heck of a lot (not likely given the absurd abundance of codices and armies GW is insisting on pumping out every other month).
I only hope that Chaos finally gets it's long deserved & badly need full overhaul of our entire model line... And rules wise, I don't care if overall we still suck the big one, but at least give us back the uniqueness & character that was so cruelly taken from us with the entire retconning of the 3.5ed codex.
As for the Primarchs returning, hopefully we can get the four main Chaos ones first.
Loyalists get too much love as it is. Now it's Chaos' turn to get some actual love for once.
The entire line? Wow that's insane and waaay too high expectations. Even Space Marines couldn't expect that. Geez CSM players are nutty sometimes. I think they set themselves up for disappointment.
I think they have to do something with csm rules in order to make the campaign and story believable.
If they're calling csm a threat in the campaign book, it would be kind of ridiculous to have to play games against SW and DA and just get destroyed. It would be immersion breaking if they don't at least give csm SOME teeth.
As it is now, the idea of csm (the codex) threatening space wolves (the codex) is pretty laughable.
War Kitten wrote: They also never seem to miss a chance to bash all Loyalist players as scum who don't want Chaos to have any nice things. Gives me the warm n fuzzies.
Well they are likely using automated script to handle all that...I mean nobody spends that much time posting same thing manually when automated script deals it for you!
Gamgee wrote: The entire line? Wow that's insane and waaay too high expectations. Even Space Marines couldn't expect that. Geez CSM players are nutty sometimes. I think they set themselves up for disappointment.
I don't think Chaos will get its entire line updated, but I think GW could come pretty close. There are obviously models that are relatively new, for example Raptors, hellbrute, and Daemon engines. GW isn't going to update them.
Before the end of the year its been said GW is suppose have Tzneetch releases for both AoS and 40k and supposedly Slaanesh is part of the tail end of the AoS campaign so we could see some 40k slaanesh releases shortly there after too. IF GW continues the trend this new "Black Crusade" will be at a minimum two campaign books, each an opportunity to release a few more chaos models. Then there is ultimately the CSM codex. Even if all the releases are relatively light with 2 or 3 kits released coinciding with each of those its 10-15 chaos kits. That is pretty close to the number of units left in the codex after you exclude recent models or characters. All that's before you consider things like two-in-one kits like if Obliterators and Mutilators were updated into a single kit.
AdMech had 8 for the whole army release if you count Skitarii and Cult Mech together, 9 if you're generous and count the Knight Crusader/Gallant/Warden kit.
While it's possible they update the Chaos line, it won't be all at once and it probably won't be all of it.
Gamgee wrote: Given the new information from Atia I think I smell HERESY! I get the feeling the IoM and Tau have been goaded into fighting each other. They are now softened up badly in the region with the Tau and so are the Tau. We see the first signs of Tau warp research which I think can only end in disaster. Not only this but the book said it was weather control satellites but I don't think so. I have a feeling the Tau were using secret psykers.
I got a feeling someone is pulling the strings of the Tau and IoM in the gulf and that would be chaos related. Even the admiral of the fleet was hesitant to use the weapon the "tech priests" used on the planet that also wiped out his own soldiers and men and then ignited the region into a pre warp rift. Sounds more like a bunch of hereteks to me. Regular exterminatus would have sufficed without drawing on such strange weaponry.
So now the two forces are weak and there is a warp rift. And we know the time of Chaos is coming.
I think its a safe bet the Tau and much of the IoM is infiltrated on a grand scale.
Man, imagine the Tau ethereals being Warpspawn or heretics that were sent to a primitive race to quickly develop into a seemingly peaceful and rather harmless race that has no fething clue about the warp, warp travel or psykers, ALL serving the ulterior purpose of opening a fething warp rift on the other side of the Imperium. JUST AS PLANNED MOTHER-F***ERS!
If this happens I take back every bad word I've ever said about Tau. If not, then they're still the most out of place faction in 40K.
Gamgee wrote: The largest update for a single update in recent times was Tau.
We got a new troop, xv8 updates, new crisis suit commander, new ethereal, ghostkeel, stormsurge, and the 4 pieces of terrain in the tidewall.
So 10 new models kinda sorta and the troop was just a sprue insert.
15 seems insane for CSM and setting the expectations waaay too high.
Agreed. Though we are allegedly getting Thousand Sons separately, which means probably a new Chaos Sorcerer at the same time (what are 1KS without Sorcerers?). So there is two kits probably not getting included. I could see a new CSM kit being designed as the basis of more kits, kinda like the Space Wolf Pack. So it would be the CSM kit plus X sprue equals X Cult Marine. Or even a modular kit where the kit has certain parts removed and a new sprue added to make the Cult Marine. That way they could cut back on the number of new molds actually needed to be produced.
Gamgee wrote: The largest update for a single update in recent times was Tau.
We got a new troop, xv8 updates, new crisis suit commander, new ethereal, ghostkeel, stormsurge, and the 4 pieces of terrain in the tidewall.
So 10 new models kinda sorta and the troop was just a sprue insert.
15 seems insane for CSM and setting the expectations waaay too high.
You kinda missed the point. It is a fact CSM needs a lot. The opportunity also exists to receive a lot. If all the rumors hold true over the next year and a half there are 5 distinct opportunities for GW to release a few CSM models at a time, to support these different books. The TAU release was basically 7 kit releases in support of 2 campaign books and a codex that combined the added content. The attention chaos is getting is likely two additional campaign books beyond what the Tau releases supported. There will be some time that passes between them, so its not as if its one mega release. So 10-15 releases is not a crazy estimate, 2-3 per book.
Let's look at it from GW's perspective. If GW has recognized the need to release this many CSM kits, how would they go about doing it? -If they did just a codex release they'd put out 5 maybe 6 kits and come no where near the number of releases they'd needed to correct the model line. Releasing them in support of these campaign books allow them to release more and allow them to drive hype around the campaign, ut also allows them draw out the peak sales period of a product line. GW's sales record show they've identified that the great majority of a new kit will be sold in the first 3 months, but that period after the initial peak is where the overall profitability of a model kit is realized. In that way GW's campaigns and supplements are intended to draw out that peak past the break even point. GW by selling the new CSM across this many releases really serves double purpose.
Nothing released with the second Tau book though. It just wrapped up the story and put the sequel hooks in.
It's not necessarily about need, but logistics. Its a supreme effort for GW to do that and take away from their ability to do other things. I still think your setting your expectations way too high then your going to bitch and I'm going to laugh since its only your own fault. What next expecting them to deliver the Chaos marine minis to their destinations in boxes made of moonstone and gold too?
We haven't had any releases as big as the Tau one since AdMech. I think it's safe to assume 8-10 kits between new releases and updates. Which is a lot more than most of us on top of your vast array of models. Poor DE barely have any options in their army and sisters has half of their meager options.
I think the lack of 40k releases is largely because of AoS; every AoS release is pretty much a whole army and that's definitely taking up resources. The large waits though only point to whatever gets released being significant. These re-bundled and spun-off individual releases point to a need to fill release windows and to free up design and production resources.
As far as Tau releases go, it only helps the argument GW could get Chaos revamped and replace majority of the chaos line given the number of book releases said to be featuring chaos. GW could do 2-3 with each book or like Tau we could see 7 with one campaign book and another 7 with the next or with a codex. The opportunity clearly exist that's all I'm saying.
Gamgee wrote: The entire line? Wow that's insane and waaay too high expectations. Even Space Marines couldn't expect that. Geez CSM players are nutty sometimes. I think they set themselves up for disappointment.
I don't think Chaos will get its entire line updated, but I think GW could come pretty close. There are obviously models that are relatively new, for example Raptors, hellbrute, and Daemon engines. GW isn't going to update them.
Before the end of the year its been said GW is suppose have Tzneetch releases for both AoS and 40k and supposedly Slaanesh is part of the tail end of the AoS campaign so we could see some 40k slaanesh releases shortly there after too. IF GW continues the trend this new "Black Crusade" will be at a minimum two campaign books, each an opportunity to release a few more chaos models. Then there is ultimately the CSM codex. Even if all the releases are relatively light with 2 or 3 kits released coinciding with each of those its 10-15 chaos kits. That is pretty close to the number of units left in the codex after you exclude recent models or characters. All that's before you consider things like two-in-one kits like if Obliterators and Mutilators were updated into a single kit.
I wouldn't expect 15 kits. Campaign books can for example have non-chaos kits released after all. Also how many of those 15 kits you expect to be redo's of EXISTING kits and how many NEW kits? Daemon primarch or two, some new tzeentchian elite unit or two, some new daemon engine...Oh and couple clam pack characters. Those always come.
15 old kits redone is extremely hopeful. If chaos gets 15 releases 3 units getting redone would be very good result.
15 seems insane for CSM and setting the expectations waaay too high.
I'm a CSM player and I agree with this.
15 new kits? Unlikely.
Give GW's propensity for Dual Kits however and that takes some of the OOF out of it.
Mutilators/Obliterators is obvious. Why GW haven't done this yet is baffling.
CSM/Chosen could well be a thing. Heck, that also would lend itself to Special Weapon Havocs as well so that's a 3 for one right there.
Havocs need to be a thing.
I dream of plastic Cult Troops but ultimately feel that an upgrade sprue for each would be more feasible than a new kit for each. Direct Only but say a sprue for each. Could see the rumoured Thousand Sons being the launch of the new CSM kit boxed with the sprue for a limited time. Then a few months down the line see a Berserker Sprue to retire the Berserker box and then Plague and Noise sprues.
They could also do some sprue recuts - mainly for the Chaos Terminators to at least give them minimal options. The amount of power weapons and normal boring plain combi bolters in that kit is embarassing.
Man, imagine the Tau ethereals being Warpspawn or heretics that were sent to a primitive race to quickly develop into a seemingly peaceful and rather harmless race that has no fething clue about the warp, warp travel or psykers, ALL serving the ulterior purpose of opening a fething warp rift on the other side of the Imperium. JUST AS PLANNED MOTHER-F***ERS!
I believe Xenology heavily hinted that it was the Eldar who set up the Ethereals.
To be fair, Chaos marines don't need much to be able to compete with their loyalists - the problem isn't capability so much as cost.
A Chaos Marine squad with Veterans Of The Long War, additional close combat weapons, a mark of chaos and the respective icon is definitely man-for-man more capable than equivalent tactical marines. The problem is that you're paying about 1/4 to 1/3 the price again per model.
Formations & Detachments granting you some of that stuff for free, on the other hand, can take the sting out of that and is a great balancing tool.
The sprues you really, really need are havocs (because plastic heavy and assault weapon), which also - mixing with normal marines & raptors to cherry-pick the blingyest armour - gives you shooty chosen.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Mutilators/Obliterators is obvious. Why GW haven't done this yet is baffling.
Jetbikes for eldar were bloody obvious. They even had the model ready. Yet it took like a decade to get it done.
Plastic aspect warriors been expected on every eldar release. Has yet to materialize.
They release new models based on what designers(model) thinks is cool.
Do GW anymore do upgrade sprues? They didn't release upgrade sprues say for BA but went for full kit...I doubt idea of cult troops being basic marines+upgrade sprue. That's been quite dead policy for quite a while.
They literally released upgrade sprues for BA, DA, SW and Ultramarines back around the time they released the new Vanilla and DA codexes, even though at that point both BA and SW had their own unique kits and DA already (and still do through the veteran box) and existing upgrade sprue.
One of the vintage Tzeentch 40k designs were disk-mounted Chaos Space Marines - especially those with Heavy weapons. They had miniatures in Epic and 40k. I cannot find the quite interesting artworks with a quick google search but they were iconic units up to the mid 90s. Discs of Tzeentch are still a thing and jetbike/jumppack/jetpack Havocs would offer a nice additional unit for a Thousand Sons release.
Spoiler:
bottom center
But I doubt that will happen
We have rumors from SP that 1k Sons miniatures will be in the next HH board game (late '16). These could be generic but should be a good base for 30k and 40k basic 1k Sons Marines. With Forgeworld already offering their upgrade bits and Dreadnoughts, plastic 30k models will pull those in who do not want to buy the pure FW kits.
Spoiler:
Silver Tower brought Pink, Blue and Brimstone Horrors - with rules for AoS. Safe bet we will see 1-2 multipart plastic kits usable for both 40k and AoS. There are also rumors about more AoS Tzeentch models and a LoC plastic kit.
Rubric Marines are like Wulfen, Harlequins and Scions an Elite unit and could be released in a similiar fashion as 5-men kits with some additional or new rules in one of the next campaign books. Adding Magnus to the 40k releases and we have a solid range to build Thousand Sons.
The floating/skimmer/flying theme for Tzeentch was already picked up with the Heldrake, Charriots and AoS Sorcerers on discs. Something simliar to the Epic Silver Towers, like a Tzeentch superheavy or building kit would be nice. The Soulgrinder in both 40k and AoS and the fact that back in the days Warhmmer Fantasy had Lord of Skulls and other large size daemon engines (in the fluff at least) made me wonder if GW would offer another crossover one day - Silver Towers of Tzeentch could be a good choice for that.
angelofvengeance wrote: So this was posted on the AoS thread, the former seems 40k related. This will come after the Sylvaneth release supposedly.
Yeah if that ain't hint to something HH related I'm surprised.
Though I'm surprised it has been able to come THIS well clouded in secrecy. Okay we knew there's new HH box coming but at least I wasn't aware it's coming THIS soon. I was expecting august more like it. One would have expected more hype over release by now.
Damn GW and their secrecy! Dark angels in real life
angelofvengeance wrote: So this was posted on the AoS thread, the former seems 40k related. This will come after the Sylvaneth release supposedly.
Yeah if that ain't hint to something HH related I'm surprised.
Though I'm surprised it has been able to come THIS well clouded in secrecy. Okay we knew there's new HH box coming but at least I wasn't aware it's coming THIS soon. I was expecting august more like it. One would have expected more hype over release by now.
Damn GW and their secrecy! Dark angels in real life
Unless you've read the books, you'll never really know what the DA in 40k are about
Gamgee wrote: The entire line? Wow that's insane and waaay too high expectations. Even Space Marines couldn't expect that. Geez CSM players are nutty sometimes. I think they set themselves up for disappointment.
I don't think Chaos will get its entire line updated, but I think GW could come pretty close. There are obviously models that are relatively new, for example Raptors, hellbrute, and Daemon engines. GW isn't going to update them.
Before the end of the year its been said GW is suppose have Tzneetch releases for both AoS and 40k and supposedly Slaanesh is part of the tail end of the AoS campaign so we could see some 40k slaanesh releases shortly there after too. IF GW continues the trend this new "Black Crusade" will be at a minimum two campaign books, each an opportunity to release a few more chaos models. Then there is ultimately the CSM codex. Even if all the releases are relatively light with 2 or 3 kits released coinciding with each of those its 10-15 chaos kits. That is pretty close to the number of units left in the codex after you exclude recent models or characters. All that's before you consider things like two-in-one kits like if Obliterators and Mutilators were updated into a single kit.
I wouldn't expect 15 kits. Campaign books can for example have non-chaos kits released after all. Also how many of those 15 kits you expect to be redo's of EXISTING kits and how many NEW kits? Daemon primarch or two, some new tzeentchian elite unit or two, some new daemon engine...Oh and couple clam pack characters. Those always come.
15 old kits redone is extremely hopeful. If chaos gets 15 releases 3 units getting redone would be very good result.
I'm just saying there is the reasonable opportunity to release 10-15 and to still be in the norm for what GW typically releases alongside all the different books expected for Chaos.
Because CSM models are from an era where GW had a slightly different philosophy of kit design, if certain kits get redone those redesigns will cascade into others. If the CSM tactical squad is redone there are off the top of my head 4 other kits that would likely be redone or repackaged at the same time. If Obliterators are redone Mutilators will too. Those two realities greatly improve the likelihood of seeing more done all at once. If GW doesn't take that approach they'll have made things cumbersome for themselves.
Gamgee wrote: The entire line? Wow that's insane and waaay too high expectations. Even Space Marines couldn't expect that. Geez CSM players are nutty sometimes. I think they set themselves up for disappointment.
I don't think Chaos will get its entire line updated, but I think GW could come pretty close. There are obviously models that are relatively new, for example Raptors, hellbrute, and Daemon engines. GW isn't going to update them.
Before the end of the year its been said GW is suppose have Tzneetch releases for both AoS and 40k and supposedly Slaanesh is part of the tail end of the AoS campaign so we could see some 40k slaanesh releases shortly there after too. IF GW continues the trend this new "Black Crusade" will be at a minimum two campaign books, each an opportunity to release a few more chaos models. Then there is ultimately the CSM codex. Even if all the releases are relatively light with 2 or 3 kits released coinciding with each of those its 10-15 chaos kits. That is pretty close to the number of units left in the codex after you exclude recent models or characters. All that's before you consider things like two-in-one kits like if Obliterators and Mutilators were updated into a single kit.
I wouldn't expect 15 kits. Campaign books can for example have non-chaos kits released after all. Also how many of those 15 kits you expect to be redo's of EXISTING kits and how many NEW kits? Daemon primarch or two, some new tzeentchian elite unit or two, some new daemon engine...Oh and couple clam pack characters. Those always come.
15 old kits redone is extremely hopeful. If chaos gets 15 releases 3 units getting redone would be very good result.
There's really only 3 current plastic kits that we desperately need re-do's on; Chaos Marines, Terminators & Berserkers.
In each case, either the models are absolutely ancient, (CSM's & 'Zerkers), and/or their current kit is missing so many of their basic options as to be basically worthless, (Terms & 'Zerkers)
Havocs, *Thousand Sons, Noise Marines, Plaugemarines, Oblits & Muties are all still Finecrap and/or upgrade kits.
Chosen & a proper Cultist kit with actual upgrades still don't even exist yet. (seriously, that's now 15 years we've been waiting for a Chosen kit! FIFTEEN!!)
Is it a lot? Absolutely, but then, guess what? This is what happens when you let an entire range rot away with almost nothing for a decade and then some!
As for how GW could churn through everything realistically?
- Thousand Sons are coming this Fall, alongside daemon Magnus. Would also be a great time to put out a generic plastic Sorcerer clampack.
- CSM, Havoc, Terminator & Oblit/Mutilator combo kits would make for a solid codex release line-up. In fact, leaving these kits until a top-down army re-think is the best option, since what Chaos really needs are new toys, since we're now almost tied with Sisters for the fewest options in the game. (meanwhile Loyalists across their 4 main flavours have +3 pistol/+1 special/+4 heavy weapon options vs. Chaos!)
- There's room for 2 campaign book releases across 2017, leaving GW the ability to churn out new Noise Marines & an Oblit/Mutilator combo kit for one, and then new Plaguemarines + Cultist (w/Zombie options!!!) for another.
4 releases all told - including the one we've been told is coming this year, and you've re-done everything bar Bikers (who can wait), Chosen (who can be cobbled together readily enough by combing everything else), and our vehicles plus HQ's/special characters.
Anything Daemon related can be piggy-backed through AoS releases, meaning GW really doesn't have to slot the models into an actual 40k window. (just put any new/re-tooled rules into the campaign supplements!)
Possessed, Raptors/Warptalons, Termie Lord/Sorc kits are all great in their current forms.
I'm a bit amused when I see "ancient" being used for some plastic kits. There are resin kits based on metal models from the early to mid-90's still floating around for certain races.
Not that the kits are bad, but Eldar made due with the same line of figures for around 17 years?
a) Components still missing entirely; 2nd special weapon, Missile launcher, Autocannon, Lascannon, Power axe, Power maul, Lightning claw, every single Combi-weapon option. (bolter/flamer/melta/plasma).
b) The molds are ancient, the models lack the crisper detailing like we've seen over the past 5-6 years of releases, and it's typical to see miscasts and/or lots of bleeding details. (the banding on the legs are especially awful!)
The mold lines are also becoming nearly a new kit in and of themselves!
c) Visually they make no sense... Everyone wears MkVI pants, with MkIII-V torsos, and (laughably) mostly MkVII helmets!
On top of the 'it makes no sense' armour, they're all still in the age old 3rd edition "squatting for a dump" pose, and very clearly don't gel at all with look of the newer Raptor/Talon kit, & DV units.
Now obviously, there's no way we're going to get every single possible option in the kit! However, when you compare the "current" sprues to the newer Loyalist kits, you'll notice that there's a craptone of wasted space...
A new kit would not only allow for GW to finally give the CSM range a more unifying visual appeal, but would also allow for GW to add in at least some more basic upgrades such as a Combi-weapon, added grenades/spikes/chains/fleshy parchments, etc..., and just generally give us the same range of utility that the Loyalist kits enjoy.
a) Components still missing entirely; 2nd special weapon, Missile launcher, Autocannon, Lascannon, Power axe, Power maul, Lightning claw, every single Combi-weapon option. (bolter/flamer/melta/plasma).
b) The molds are ancient, the models lack the crisper detailing like we've seen over the past 5-6 years of releases, and it's typical to see miscasts and/or lots of bleeding details. (the banding on the legs are especially awful!)
The mold lines are also becoming nearly a new kit in and of themselves!
c) Visually they make no sense... Everyone wears MkVI pants, with MkIII-V torsos, and (laughably) mostly MkVII helmets!
On top of the 'it makes no sense' armour, they're all still in the age old 3rd edition "squatting for a dump" pose, and very clearly don't gel at all with look of the newer Raptor/Talon kit, & DV units.
Now obviously, there's no way we're going to get every single possible option in the kit! However, when you compare the "current" sprues to the newer Loyalist kits, you'll notice that there's a craptone of wasted space...
A new kit would not only allow for GW to finally give the CSM range a more unifying visual appeal, but would also allow for GW to add in at least some more basic upgrades such as a Combi-weapon, added grenades/spikes/chains/fleshy parchments, etc..., and just generally give us the same range of utility that the Loyalist kits enjoy.
......That's it. Wow.That's not bad at all. People make it sound like it was some atrocious Finecast monopose kit but that isn't bad.
It may not be Sisters levels of bad, but the current kit has more than served its time.
Besides, if Loyalists can get 3 different flavours of the same kit, why can't we have just 1 new kit after 15 years of our current kit + a handful of 'newer' bitz from 2007?
Experiment 626 wrote: It may not be Sisters levels of bad, but the current kit has more than served its time.
Besides, if Loyalists can get 3 different flavours of the same kit, why can't we have just 1 new kit after 15 years of our current kit + a handful of 'newer' bitz from 2007?
Imperial Guard have have had the same infantry kit for 13 years and it has even less options. CSM players aren't exactly being singled out here.
a) Components still missing entirely; 2nd special weapon, Missile launcher, Autocannon, Lascannon, Power axe, Power maul, Lightning claw, every single Combi-weapon option. (bolter/flamer/melta/plasma).
b) The molds are ancient, the models lack the crisper detailing like we've seen over the past 5-6 years of releases, and it's typical to see miscasts and/or lots of bleeding details. (the banding on the legs are especially awful!)
The mold lines are also becoming nearly a new kit in and of themselves!
c) Visually they make no sense... Everyone wears MkVI pants, with MkIII-V torsos, and (laughably) mostly MkVII helmets!
On top of the 'it makes no sense' armour, they're all still in the age old 3rd edition "squatting for a dump" pose, and very clearly don't gel at all with look of the newer Raptor/Talon kit, & DV units.
Now obviously, there's no way we're going to get every single possible option in the kit! However, when you compare the "current" sprues to the newer Loyalist kits, you'll notice that there's a craptone of wasted space...
A new kit would not only allow for GW to finally give the CSM range a more unifying visual appeal, but would also allow for GW to add in at least some more basic upgrades such as a Combi-weapon, added grenades/spikes/chains/fleshy parchments, etc..., and just generally give us the same range of utility that the Loyalist kits enjoy.
Not even the loyalist kit has more than two heavy weapons options, so asking for a missile launcher, an Autocannon, and a Lascannon is a tad unreasonable don't you think? They also only get a power sword and a power fist as I recall, so no unending list of power weapons either. Yes it would be nice to have some options in it, but it is hardly an unserviceable kit. It's perfectly usable and whenever I have seen them on the table top they have looked great.
Yes it could do with some more special weapons options, but let's be honest here, this isn't something that isn't an insurmountable problem in the days of eBay bits sellers, and forgeworld upgrade kits. Or indeed 3rd party bits sellers. The csm box set is at least £5 cheaper than the loyalist one, probably more on 3rd party sites. Use the saving to grab some nice bits and so some kitbashing. It's not hard.
Experiment 626 wrote: It may not be Sisters levels of bad, but the current kit has more than served its time.
Besides, if Loyalists can get 3 different flavours of the same kit, why can't we have just 1 new kit after 15 years of our current kit + a handful of 'newer' bitz from 2007?
Imperial Guard have have had the same infantry kit for 13 years and it has even less options. CSM players aren't exactly being singled out here.
Don't think orks have either every option. What infantry kits with tons of options have every option anyway?
Experiment 626 wrote: It may not be Sisters levels of bad, but the current kit has more than served its time.
Besides, if Loyalists can get 3 different flavours of the same kit, why can't we have just 1 new kit after 15 years of our current kit + a handful of 'newer' bitz from 2007?
Imperial Guard have have had the same infantry kit for 13 years and it has even less options. CSM players aren't exactly being singled out here.
Don't think orks have either every option. What infantry kits with tons of options have every option anyway?
Not any that I know of. I think 626's criticisms of the CSM kit's equipment options and demands for the replacement are unreasonable.
I mean, the kit includes options for the entire squad to be equipped with BP/CCWS and the usual assortment of Astartes specialized equipment. That's pretty damned good.
I thought the next box was either Iron warriors vs Fists or Ultra Raines vs World Eaters.
I mean, if they do BAC two: heresy boogaloo, it will probably be filled with Generic terminators/marines/others so that they can be used for anyone's legion, and then FW can sell the upgrade packs to make them more unique.
I kind of hope for IW vs Fists, just because of Breacher marines and such.
Maybe they'll bring back Rubric Terminators that come with a 4++ base and have ap3 bolter ammo. And decently priced!
Maybe Magnus and the other Daemon Primarchs will be GCs.
I am hoping that we get a set of Tartaros Terminators. The problem is that they should have given us those with Betrayal at Calth (Tartaros Terminators were built using the advances from the Mk IV armor). I would really like to see Mk III Breachers or Tacticals that could be done up as Breachers. I fully intend to make an Imperial Fists Legion army once the next set of HH stuff comes out.
Crazyterran wrote: I thought the next box was either Iron warriors vs Fists or Ultra Raines vs World Eaters.
I mean, if they do BAC two: heresy boogaloo, it will probably be filled with Generic terminators/marines/others so that they can be used for anyone's legion, and then FW can sell the upgrade packs to make them more unique.
I kind of hope for IW vs Fists, just because of Breacher marines and such.
Maybe they'll bring back Rubric Terminators that come with a 4++ base and have ap3 bolter ammo. And decently priced!
Maybe Magnus and the other Daemon Primarchs will be GCs.
They'll need a boatload more before terminators start becoming usefull* again, but it's a good start if they're decently priced.
Know what'd be really great? Highly priced Rubrics (both normal and terminator) with AP2 bolts!
I was kinda thinking of them being Cataphractii but better, essentially, for equivalent pricing. Maybe a Sorceror Squad leader that gets a unique power that makes the bolts AP2 for his unit, and another power that increases the invulnerable save for Rubrics within 12" by 1, to a maximum of 3++.
Force you to choose between better offence and defence, since the Sorceror would only be Mastery 1, but either way it's a powerful increase that also would be fluffy.
And no, I'm not saying this is all chaos should get, before any of you triggered chaos players jump down my throat.
Crazyterran wrote: I thought the next box was either Iron warriors vs Fists or Ultra Raines vs World Eaters.
Phall was just wishlisting and no one credible ever said it was happening (just BoLS and Faeit), but everyone thought it was the most likely pairing, and the Ultramarine v WE rumour came from a guy with a freshly made account.
Crazyterran wrote: I thought the next box was either Iron warriors vs Fists or Ultra Raines vs World Eaters.
Phall was just wishlisting and no one credible ever said it was happening (just BoLS and Faeit), but everyone thought it was the most likely pairing, and the Ultramarine v WE rumour came from a guy with a freshly made account.
Phall would be the logical place to do Mk III armor Marines, but is also represents a very different type of play compared to BaC (Phall was void warfare whereas BaC is terrestrial), which is what Sad Panda has said will be the case.
I only recall Sand Panda ever saying the games are separate and use different rules, not that they both represent different types of combat.
Fingers crossed that a TS vs SW box is MKII and not MKIV (and that we eventually get a box of MKIII in a year or two), as I can't think of any other matchups that would be MKII-based
Matt.Kingsley wrote: I only recall Sand Panda ever saying the games are separate and use different rules, not that they both represent different types of combat.
Fingers crossed that a TS vs SW box is MKII and not MKIV (and that we eventually get a box of MKIII in a year or two), as I can't think of any other matchups that would be MKII-based
I just reread his posts, and you are right, he doesn't say that the game will be drastically different. He does say that it is HH, has Space Marines, and similarities end there.
what if the tzeentch "codex" would give all of them that rule they had in 3rd where they are straight up immune to ranged str 4 and below. Combined with a 4++...mmmh.
a) Components still missing entirely; 2nd special weapon, Missile launcher, Autocannon, Lascannon, Power axe, Power maul, Lightning claw, every single Combi-weapon option. (bolter/flamer/melta/plasma).
b) The molds are ancient, the models lack the crisper detailing like we've seen over the past 5-6 years of releases, and it's typical to see miscasts and/or lots of bleeding details. (the banding on the legs are especially awful!)
The mold lines are also becoming nearly a new kit in and of themselves!
c) Visually they make no sense... Everyone wears MkVI pants, with MkIII-V torsos, and (laughably) mostly MkVII helmets!
On top of the 'it makes no sense' armour, they're all still in the age old 3rd edition "squatting for a dump" pose, and very clearly don't gel at all with look of the newer Raptor/Talon kit, & DV units.
Now obviously, there's no way we're going to get every single possible option in the kit! However, when you compare the "current" sprues to the newer Loyalist kits, you'll notice that there's a craptone of wasted space...
A new kit would not only allow for GW to finally give the CSM range a more unifying visual appeal, but would also allow for GW to add in at least some more basic upgrades such as a Combi-weapon, added grenades/spikes/chains/fleshy parchments, etc..., and just generally give us the same range of utility that the Loyalist kits enjoy.
Actually, on this vein, you frequently mention that there exists no worse kit for a WYSIWYG version of a basic squad for an army, and the other day I cracked one open and laughed because I thought of you!
I discovered the joy of the Eldar Storm Guardian kit! (btw this is not a post trying to "prove you wrong" but you frequently ask if there is a kit as bad as chaos termies, so I thought you might appreciate this little gem).
We've got a basic troop choice in the Eldar codex, been around since I think 3rd or 2nd ed. First, if you want to use them, you must buy a box of normal guardians. This box contains 10 guardians.
The SG upgrade pack? Maximum of 8 models can be built. Also, it's a finecast kit in which over half the parts are noodle swords and noodle ponytails, so you know it's going to be pristine and perfect looking.
Rules-wise, the storms can take up to 2 of fusion guns or flamers, and up to 2 power swords. Other than that, they must take chainswords and pistols.
The upgrade kit contains 1 fusion gun, 1 flamer, and bafflingly, FOUR power swords and only TWO chainswords. So if you cared about WYSIWYG and didn't have the bits to convert, to field a legal squad you would need to buy two guardian kits, two storm guardian kits, and pay 30 points for S3 A1 power swords, and you'd end up with six storm guardians, four regular guardians, and 2 heavy weapon platforms you couldn't legally field.
Absolutely fantastic. Luckily, they convert pretty well with Harlequin swords, and at the end of the day they're a bit like Thousand Sons where at least you end up with something that looks good.
a) Components still missing entirely; 2nd special weapon, Missile launcher, Autocannon, Lascannon, Power axe, Power maul, Lightning claw, every single Combi-weapon option. (bolter/flamer/melta/plasma).
b) The molds are ancient, the models lack the crisper detailing like we've seen over the past 5-6 years of releases, and it's typical to see miscasts and/or lots of bleeding details. (the banding on the legs are especially awful!)
The mold lines are also becoming nearly a new kit in and of themselves!
c) Visually they make no sense... Everyone wears MkVI pants, with MkIII-V torsos, and (laughably) mostly MkVII helmets!
On top of the 'it makes no sense' armour, they're all still in the age old 3rd edition "squatting for a dump" pose, and very clearly don't gel at all with look of the newer Raptor/Talon kit, & DV units.
Now obviously, there's no way we're going to get every single possible option in the kit! However, when you compare the "current" sprues to the newer Loyalist kits, you'll notice that there's a craptone of wasted space...
A new kit would not only allow for GW to finally give the CSM range a more unifying visual appeal, but would also allow for GW to add in at least some more basic upgrades such as a Combi-weapon, added grenades/spikes/chains/fleshy parchments, etc..., and just generally give us the same range of utility that the Loyalist kits enjoy.
Not even the loyalist kit has more than two heavy weapons options, so asking for a missile launcher, an Autocannon, and a Lascannon is a tad unreasonable don't you think? They also only get a power sword and a power fist as I recall, so no unending list of power weapons either. Yes it would be nice to have some options in it, but it is hardly an unserviceable kit. It's perfectly usable and whenever I have seen them on the table top they have looked great.
Yes it could do with some more special weapons options, but let's be honest here, this isn't something that isn't an insurmountable problem in the days of eBay bits sellers, and forgeworld upgrade kits. Or indeed 3rd party bits sellers. The csm box set is at least £5 cheaper than the loyalist one, probably more on 3rd party sites. Use the saving to grab some nice bits and so some kitbashing. It's not hard.
Thank-you for completely ignoring the part where I came right out and said that there's obviously no way we'd ever get every single possible option...
The CSM box is $47 vs. the Tactical Squad's $50 price tag - such amazing savings! And yes, it IS an issue, because why should Chaos players be forced to go through 3rd party suppliers, FW and/or ebay/bitz sellers, just because... "Reasons." (and that whopping $3 difference will of course buy so much!)
Why is it so unreasonable for Chaos players to want a combi-weapon option & more than the same 4 sets of legs that all look like our guys are trying to drop the mother of all mud babies? Or most heretical of all, our army to finally have a single visually unified look, instead of the constant mishmash of nearly 30 years of wildly varying aesthetics?
The current Tactical Squad has managed to cram in 179 components, the BA version 165 components, and the basic SW 10 man set is a whopping 218 components! (or rather, 109 x2). Meanwhile, the new Raptor/Talon kit is 116 components for just 5 models! (hint: that's almost as many components as our basic 10 man kit comes with.)
What's so wrong with Chaos players hoping/wishing for a new set that could;
- keep the power sword + fist + plasma pistol
- replace Heavy bolter w/Missile launcher + add Heavy flamer
- add a single combi-weapon in the same style as the current Tactical Squad version
- redesign all the armour to better match the newer Raptors aesthetic (and don't make them all MkVI pants either!)
- replace most of the MkVII heads with older MkIII-VI style heads, since the vast majority of Chaos Marines never even had access to MkVII armour!
If Loyalists can get close to, (or even slightly over), 200 components for their basic squads, why doesn't Chaos - who are still Marines when it comes right down to it, suddenly be okay to not get the same level of treatment?
I know I'd instantly replace at least half of my basic grunts if we could get a kit that's similar to the basic BA kit, or else is closer on to the basic SW frame (5 dudes x2) + a re-jiggled 'command' frame. Even at the BA price point of $52 it would be well worth it, unlike our current set which feels like a rip-off.
Robbie MacNiven was guest on the latest Combat Phase podcast, talking about his Warzone Fenris ebook series. The sound quality isn't really good but even for a foreigner it is okay enough to follow the conversation.
I'll just throw this out there...I'd really like to see a re-launch of Chaos using almost exclusively Horus Heresy era equipment. It actually makes far more sense.
Chaos should be on the short end of the supply chain and shouldn't be using/producing Mk7 type armour. While I'm sure they scrounge battle field scraps from current marine Chapters and have limited production facilities of their own, it would be cool and a very easy way to quickly discern between Chaos marines and normal ones.
Rules can remain the exact same, no big deal, but it'd be nice. I've never cared for the over-the-top Chaos stylings, but if I "had" to do a Chaos force I'd probably start with the Betrayal at Calth box.
Elbows wrote: I'll just throw this out there...I'd really like to see a re-launch of Chaos using almost exclusively Horus Heresy era equipment. It actually makes far more sense.
Chaos should be on the short end of the supply chain and shouldn't be using/producing Mk7 type armour. While I'm sure they scrounge battle field scraps from current marine Chapters and have limited production facilities of their own, it would be cool and a very easy way to quickly discern between Chaos marines and normal ones.
Rules can remain the exact same, no big deal, but it'd be nice. I've never cared for the over-the-top Chaos stylings, but if I "had" to do a Chaos force I'd probably start with the Betrayal at Calth box.
I'm begging for MKII or at least MKIII precicely with this goal in mind. Use those + bits to make very old fashioned chaos marines
Not too fan of MKIV so that's why I'm not getting Calth for that. MKII would look so sweet though.
Elbows wrote: I'll just throw this out there...I'd really like to see a re-launch of Chaos using almost exclusively Horus Heresy era equipment. It actually makes far more sense.
Chaos should be on the short end of the supply chain and shouldn't be using/producing Mk7 type armour. While I'm sure they scrounge battle field scraps from current marine Chapters and have limited production facilities of their own, it would be cool and a very easy way to quickly discern between Chaos marines and normal ones.
Rules can remain the exact same, no big deal, but it'd be nice. I've never cared for the over-the-top Chaos stylings, but if I "had" to do a Chaos force I'd probably start with the Betrayal at Calth box.
Ideally, the entire Chaos Marine line should be using mainly MkV & MkVI styles of armour, since it was those who sided with Horus who had been the first to receive the 'latest' and most modern (for the time) suits of power armour. It was actually the Loyalists who had to 'make do' with older armour Mk's and/or scrounge up what they could.
Throw in some earlier MkIII & MkIV bits, and at best, just a very bare minimum of MkVII parts for showing off the more modern recently turned Renegades. ie: if a new kit comes with say 12 helmeted heads, only 2 at most should based on the MkVII pattern armour!
Then give us a Kai Gun for a new special weapon, and then add in the option for a Heavy flamer, a new 'energy-based' weapon and perhaps a medium Str & range multi-shot weapon that have definite origins in Heresy-era tech, but with some suitably chaotic leanings. (as in, what the gak have the Dark Mech been doing for 10,000 years?!)
It would even be cool if GW made Chaos Marine plasma weapons with a bit more punch, say Salvo 2/3 @ S7/ap2 and 'Gets Hot'. Meanwhile, they could then drop Loyalist plasma down to say S6/ap2, but remove the 'Gets Hot' rule entirely.
It would be nice way to differentiate between how Loyalists have continually tried to improve upon their plasma technology, while Chaos sticks to the 'old school' version, with the trade-off being a bit more power but with more risk of blowing up in your face!
Elbows wrote: I'll just throw this out there...I'd really like to see a re-launch of Chaos using almost exclusively Horus Heresy era equipment. It actually makes far more sense.
Chaos should be on the short end of the supply chain and shouldn't be using/producing Mk7 type armour. While I'm sure they scrounge battle field scraps from current marine Chapters and have limited production facilities of their own, it would be cool and a very easy way to quickly discern between Chaos marines and normal ones.
Rules can remain the exact same, no big deal, but it'd be nice. I've never cared for the over-the-top Chaos stylings, but if I "had" to do a Chaos force I'd probably start with the Betrayal at Calth box.
Ideally, the entire Chaos Marine line should be using mainly MkV & MkVI styles of armour, since it was those who sided with Horus who had been the first to receive the 'latest' and most modern (for the time) suits of power armour. It was actually the Loyalists who had to 'make do' with older armour Mk's and/or scrounge up what they could.
Throw in some earlier MkIII & MkIV bits, and at best, just a very bare minimum of MkVII parts for showing off the more modern recently turned Renegades. ie: if a new kit comes with say 12 helmeted heads, only 2 at most should based on the MkVII pattern armour!
Then give us a Kai Gun for a new special weapon, and then add in the option for a Heavy flamer, a new 'energy-based' weapon and perhaps a medium Str & range multi-shot weapon that have definite origins in Heresy-era tech, but with some suitably chaotic leanings. (as in, what the gak have the Dark Mech been doing for 10,000 years?!)
It would even be cool if GW made Chaos Marine plasma weapons with a bit more punch, say Salvo 3/2 @ S7/ap2 and 'Gets Hot'. Meanwhile, they could then drop Loyalist plasma down to say S6/ap2, but remove the 'Gets Hot' rule entirely.
It would be nice way to differentiate between how Loyalists have continually tried to improve upon their plasma technology, while Chaos sticks to the 'old school' version, with the trade-off being a bit more power but with more risk of blowing up in your face!
I would be perfectly ok with this. Might show how CSM's prefer equipment that may be a bit riskier to use, but is also more powerful than bog standard SM equipment
Crazyterran wrote: Wasn't the Raven Guard and Dark Angels the ones testing Mark 6, while Mark 5 was a hodgepodge of whatever could be thrown together?
The Death Guard and Iron Warriors preferred Mk3, for example...
They may have initially been the test monkeys, but by the time the Heresy began, it was still only those who had basically only sided with Horus who had been near to fully outfitted with those newer armour Mk's.
The Death Guard & Iron Warriors may have preferred the older marks, but everyone else had been readily supplied with the newest stuff.
Compound this with the fact that it was Horus' forces who managed to capture and/or subvert the vast majority of those worlds which were producing the newest stuff.
Besides the semantics though, the main issue is that it's positively stupid & massively fluff breaking that Chaos Marines currently look closer to Mk7 but with Mk6 pants, rather than being composed of mostly Mk5 & 6, with a moderate amount of Mk3 & 4 thrown in for good measure.
In a perfect world there would be 3 sets of chaos marine kits.
- veterans of the long war: mark 2-4.
- renegades: mark 5-7 (basically the current kit)
- cult marines: whatever mutated and warp crazy each god would look like.
I'd also be completely fine with seeing some older vehicles/etc. Much in the way that Forgeworld has taken much of the old Epic/40K stuff and made it look neat and modern (by modelling/sculpting standards).
It'd be great to see a lot of retro designs brought up to modern sculpting standards, supplied for the Chaos forces. It doesn't seem at all to be something GW would actually be interested in doing, but it couldn't hurt.
Now if they found a wonderful way to simply cross a lot of new Horus Heresy plastics with the Chaos stuff so they could double-dip profit wise, maybe we'd see some of it.
Crazyterran wrote: Wasn't the Raven Guard and Dark Angels the ones testing Mark 6, while Mark 5 was a hodgepodge of whatever could be thrown together?
The Death Guard and Iron Warriors preferred Mk3, for example...
They may have initially been the test monkeys, but by the time the Heresy began, it was still only those who had basically only sided with Horus who had been near to fully outfitted with those newer armour Mk's.
The Death Guard & Iron Warriors may have preferred the older marks, but everyone else had been readily supplied with the newest stuff.
Compound this with the fact that it was Horus' forces who managed to capture and/or subvert the vast majority of those worlds which were producing the newest stuff.
Besides the semantics though, the main issue is that it's positively stupid & massively fluff breaking that Chaos Marines currently look closer to Mk7 but with Mk6 pants, rather than being composed of mostly Mk5 & 6, with a moderate amount of Mk3 & 4 thrown in for good measure.
I am pretty sure Mk VI was pushed into production during the Heresy and only reached Loyalists.
buddha wrote: In a perfect world there would be 3 sets of chaos marine kits.
- veterans of the long war: mark 2-4.
- renegades: mark 5-7 (basically the current kit)
- cult marines: whatever mutated and warp crazy each god would look like.
Well it looks like they are moving towards that. We already have all the FW stuff for the legions. And now the BaC stuff, and rumours of even more plastic legion stuff.
Then you have the Crimson Slaughter stuff.
We also have rumours of new TS marines, there's also cult marines and upgrade kits available, they could be better, but they are there.
Personally, if I were a csm player I'd want GW to be focusing on the really bad stuff like that, the fine cast things like obliterators, cult marines, and havocs. I honestly don't know why 626 keeps going on about the basic csm squad kit, there are much bigger fish to fry.
I collected the info from the podcast with R. MacNiven
* Mild spoiler warning *
- His ebooks will be released as a novel later, they were written with that in mind and are set at the middle of the WZF story
- He is not allowed to say exactly what but there is more than just stories released by BL coming
- Midgardia, which - as we have known since the artist of that artwork pointed it out - is getting bombarded by the Dark Angels not Fenris and burned to the ground. It is not blown apart though.
- The Changeling is so excellent at hiding, only Tzeentch knows his real form and has much respect for that ability. The Changeling had sneaked into a SW fortress earlier. The Inquisition is investigating. Maybe I missed it but he hasnt been detected in part 1-5 afaik - Known Characters will die (not the big ones)
- He was able to write about a lot of Space Wolves characters, both recently introduced and those well known
- Epic scale story, taking place on several planets, moons and space ports - More than 14 main characters, at least 12 SM chapters involved
This is what Robbie MacNiven knows and/or allowed to say and/or his impressions regarding the game itself - do not quote him on that:
- The storyline/conflict of the Daemonic Incursion is going to expand to other areas and is not limited to the Fenris system
- My interpretation: Sounds like more Warzone campaigns for 40k in other areas
- No AoS-ification
- No Destruction of the 40k universe to start anew
Story development:
- The characters (like Azrael, Stern etc) have individual reactions to and opinions of the Wulfen. Pretty interesting stuff actually
- SW and DA arent driven by hatred for each other
- The Daemon incursions are so severe that bombing a planet was one of the last measures available
- There are different kinds of Wulfen characters, some are feral, some more human than animal
- In Part 8 everything escalates (not his words)
He is also writing a Charadon's novel and two top secret projects including a short story.
A Stormtrooper/Militarum Tempestus and more Imperial Guard stories is something he would like to work on next as they havent gotten much for a while and he also collects and plays IG. He played a lot of WFB and there will be an AoS book by him some time in the future.
The Warzone Fenris ebook series is going to end sometime in August, he doesnt know 100%, but earlier than fall 2016. There are two ebooks left.
There was a lot more talk, especially about the SW characters involved.
The first part of the WZF ebook series is available for free by the way.
I would have no problem at all with them icing existing character that have models. Some characters are just so cool you want to play them, even if that technically makes your army a flashback army. And the fact they probably went down in some crazy event just makes them more desirable lol.
Experiment 626 wrote: Ideally, the entire Chaos Marine line should be using mainly MkV & MkVI styles of armour, since it was those who sided with Horus who had been the first to receive the 'latest' and most modern (for the time) suits of power armour.
Latest would have been Mk IV. Mk V and VI weren't introduced until after the Heresy had begun.
Look at the FW Legion upgrade kits.
Mk IV legions:
Sons of Horus
Emperor's Children
Night Lords
Word Bearers
Alpha Legion
Ultramarines
Blood Angels
Thousand Sons
Loyalist = 2 out of 8
Mk II/III legions:
Dark Angels
White Scars
Iron Warriors
Imperial Fists
Iron Hands
Death Guard
Wold Eaters
Salamanders
Space Wolves
IF Chaos could only have one style of armor to represent every flavor of chaos marine Mk5 would be the most appropriate. Its really the technological divergence point. Could different groups of Chaos be found using other patterns of armor?-Yes, but in most instances there would be some exclusion of certain patterns. With Mk5 however, because it represents a hodge podge stop gap pattern as much as it can represents Heresy era former legionaries, it can also represent new Renegade chapters that have simply had to adapt in the absence of Imperial resources cobbling together suits to stay ready for combat.
Mk5 is similar enough to Mk6 and Mk7 most common to the loyalist marines that a CSM would still be identifiable as an "astartes" but divergent and varied enough to be recognizable as something different.
Roknar wrote: I would have no problem at all with them icing existing character that have models. Some characters are just so cool you want to play them, even if that technically makes your army a flashback army. And the fact they probably went down in some crazy event just makes them more desirable lol.
Yeah. Who says you can't have models of not-currently-living models? GW used to not say so. Was so much fun to have characters from history. Idea of every game happening in most recent year is boring anyway. You have thousands of years of history and you only use one?
Now I want to do a custom Culexus wearing Aun'va's hat.
Sidebar: Seriously, though, how frickin' pathetic is it that the assassin that kills Aun'Va is the one designed to take on psykers. It would be like using bright lights to kill a blind person.
Consider he sucks out souls by poking people with his finger, I would be willing to accept it. I would have rather do the Callidus doing it, since her disguising herself as one of his honour guard and shooting him in the back would have made more sense then her trying to get close to Farsight or Shadowsun, who have advanced sensor suites.
Oh well, they managed to kill a few of the 8, put Shadowsun on life support, and kil Aun'va. Did more than Shrike and Khan managed to do in three books and a short story collection.
Its going to be really interesting to see what else 
