Martel732 wrote: Actual space marines were too powerful in 3rd ed. There is little debate to this. Sweeping advance was a thing, as was Rhino rush.
Four editions later, meqs are back where they were in 2nd. Marines don't make marine lists good, things like grav cents do. I'm not an Astartes supremacist, but I object to them being busted back down to cannon fodder that don't last any longer than guardsmen.
1000 men in your whole chapter and you are reduced to fodder for a tactical marine. Such a sad state.
I'm just used to pre-built lists with no discussion
I think I see your problem.
All players names go in a kitty with their list. Opponents are randomly assigned. People can not change their list after submission for a reason. (No tailoring) Why do you think this should be a problem?
If there isn't a problem, then why did you threadjack my request for advice in order to complain about the injustice of having to bring grav in that situation?
Maybe you can also tell me what I can bring, as Tau, that can deal with a Knight and costs less than a Stormsurge (and won't make people raeg like a Stormsurge).
Knights, in the scheme of things, are actually very mediocre. They take a fraction of the firepower to bring down compared to a stormsurge or riptide. Their firepower is also meh.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not certain why they took away the idea of Kroot being assault thugs. That made Tau less helpless against opponents in melee range and reduced the need to massacre every last enemy before they could assault.
Maybe because we're powerful enough as it is, without being half-decent in assault.
I liked the idea of melee Kroot, though.
Kroot weren't massively decent, even when they were S4. If anything their overall power got buffed thanks to sniper rounds whilst at the same time stripping them of the flavour and fluff that they had brought to the Tau previously.
Martel732 wrote: Knights, in the scheme of things, are actually very mediocre. They take a fraction of the firepower to bring down compared to a stormsurge or riptide. Their firepower is also meh.
Who needs Firepower when you can point-n-stomp things off the board?
Martel732 wrote: I'm not certain why they took away the idea of Kroot being assault thugs. That made Tau less helpless against opponents in melee range and reduced the need to massacre every last enemy before they could assault.
Maybe because we're powerful enough as it is, without being half-decent in assault.
I liked the idea of melee Kroot, though.
Kroot weren't massively decent, even when they were S4. If anything their overall power got buffed thanks to sniper rounds whilst at the same time stripping them of the flavour and fluff that they had brought to the Tau previously.
Frankly kroot being melee made sense and made them stand out. At least they were something different. I don't think tau really need a second good Shooty infantry. Now kroot just seem flavorless. Melee kroot were nice.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not certain why they took away the idea of Kroot being assault thugs. That made Tau less helpless against opponents in melee range and reduced the need to massacre every last enemy before they could assault.
Maybe because we're powerful enough as it is, without being half-decent in assault.
I liked the idea of melee Kroot, though.
Kroot weren't massively decent, even when they were S4. If anything their overall power got buffed thanks to sniper rounds whilst at the same time stripping them of the flavour and fluff that they had brought to the Tau previously.
Frankly kroot being melee made sense and made them stand out. At least they were something different. I don't think tau really need a second good Shooty infantry. Now kroot just seem flavorless. Melee kroot were nice.
I'm going to caveat the following by pointing out that I played Tau mostly in 4th ed, and currently play them as a mech force with no Riptides.
I have found that they are only really enjoyable to play against if your opponent:
1) has played against Tau before.
2) really enjoys the tactical movement and positioning aspects of the game.
The reason I say this is that Tau can be one of the most disheartening armies to play against. Most games involve your opponent picking up models for the first two turns, and either crashing into your lines and destroying all your stuff, or failing to get there and falling apart.
They really feel like a glass cannon, where if your opponent pushes up the middle of the field, with no concern for flanking or cover, they're going to get shot to pieces right quick. However, if they're smart about flanking, and unit positioning, all you need to do is get a few units into CC to make the whole army fall apart.
True story, one of the most enjoyable games I've had with Tau in recent memory literally revolved around a flanking multi assault by a 5 man squad of raptors into a unit of Fire Warriors, and a unit of Broadsides. At one point, the actual phrase used was "I only need three of these guys to make it so I can wipe out this flank". They made it, won combat and swept the remaining Fire Warriors, and 2 Broadsides.
600 pts of Boyz vs 400pts of Fire warriors thats 100 boyz vs 44 Fire warriors.
Starting at Range 30
Turn 1
Firewarrriors shoot first 44 shots 22 hits 14 wounds 14 dead Orks. Orks move up 6 run 4 and thats it.
Turn 2
Firewarriors shoot 44 shots, 22 hits 14 more dead orks.
Orks move up 6, run 4 and thats it, they are now 10 inches away from Firewarriors.
Turn 3
Firewarrriors move back 6 double tap orks for 28 dead orks, they are now down to 44 boyz against the Tau who haven't lost a single model. Boyz move up 6 (10 inches away) attempt a charge, probably fail, but for the sake of YOLO lets say they make it, OVERWATCH!
88 shots hitting on 6s = 14ish hits, 10ish wounds 10 ish dead orks, Orks are now down to 34 boyz and just failed the charge because removing 10 models ruined the charge distance.
Turn 4, Orks concede because GW hates them and Tau goes on to complain about how they need buffs because the Orks almost hit them with a knife.
This also doesn't take into account the fact that Tau can just run backwards the entire time and stay barely within range and continue to infuriate the ork player
ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote: I only bothered to read about 5 pages of this before i had to stop and start laughing. People trying to defend Tau and Eldar LMAO.
600 pts of Boyz vs 400pts of Fire warriors thats 100 boyz vs 44 Fire warriors.
Starting at Range 30
Turn 1
Firewarrriors shoot first 44 shots 22 hits 14 wounds 14 dead Orks. Orks move up 6 run 4 and thats it.
Turn 2
Firewarriors shoot 44 shots, 22 hits 14 more dead orks.
Orks move up 6, run 4 and thats it, they are now 10 inches away from Firewarriors.
Turn 3
Firewarrriors move back 6 double tap orks for 28 dead orks, they are now down to 44 boyz against the Tau who haven't lost a single model. Boyz move up 6 (10 inches away) attempt a charge, probably fail, but for the sake of YOLO lets say they make it, OVERWATCH!
88 shots hitting on 6s = 14ish hits, 10ish wounds 10 ish dead orks, Orks are now down to 34 boyz and just failed the charge because removing 10 models ruined the charge distance.
Turn 4, Orks concede because GW hates them and Tau goes on to complain about how they need buffs because the Orks almost hit them with a knife.
This also doesn't take into account the fact that Tau can just run backwards the entire time and stay barely within range and continue to infuriate the ork player
Unit A vs unit B is always going to be a gak comparison. You're ignoring so many important factors as to weather or not a unit is good that it's really pointless. Nobody will ever run an army of just 400 points worth of fire warriors, and I don't expect you to do a bunch of boys with no actual support for them. As such, your hypothetical situation is really a rather pointless one that proves nothing.
ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote: I only bothered to read about 5 pages of this before i had to stop and start laughing. People trying to defend Tau and Eldar LMAO.
600 pts of Boyz vs 400pts of Fire warriors thats 100 boyz vs 44 Fire warriors.
Starting at Range 30
Turn 1
Firewarrriors shoot first 44 shots 22 hits 14 wounds 14 dead Orks. Orks move up 6 run 4 and thats it.
Turn 2
Firewarriors shoot 44 shots, 22 hits 14 more dead orks.
Orks move up 6, run 4 and thats it, they are now 10 inches away from Firewarriors.
Turn 3
Firewarrriors move back 6 double tap orks for 28 dead orks, they are now down to 44 boyz against the Tau who haven't lost a single model. Boyz move up 6 (10 inches away) attempt a charge, probably fail, but for the sake of YOLO lets say they make it, OVERWATCH!
88 shots hitting on 6s = 14ish hits, 10ish wounds 10 ish dead orks, Orks are now down to 34 boyz and just failed the charge because removing 10 models ruined the charge distance.
Turn 4, Orks concede because GW hates them and Tau goes on to complain about how they need buffs because the Orks almost hit them with a knife.
This also doesn't take into account the fact that Tau can just run backwards the entire time and stay barely within range and continue to infuriate the ork player
ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote: I only bothered to read about 5 pages of this before i had to stop and start laughing. People trying to defend Tau and Eldar LMAO.
600 pts of Boyz vs 400pts of Fire warriors thats 100 boyz vs 44 Fire warriors.
Starting at Range 30
Turn 1
Firewarrriors shoot first 44 shots 22 hits 14 wounds 14 dead Orks. Orks move up 6 run 4 and thats it.
Turn 2
Firewarriors shoot 44 shots, 22 hits 14 more dead orks.
Orks move up 6, run 4 and thats it, they are now 10 inches away from Firewarriors.
Turn 3
Firewarrriors move back 6 double tap orks for 28 dead orks, they are now down to 44 boyz against the Tau who haven't lost a single model. Boyz move up 6 (10 inches away) attempt a charge, probably fail, but for the sake of YOLO lets say they make it, OVERWATCH!
88 shots hitting on 6s = 14ish hits, 10ish wounds 10 ish dead orks, Orks are now down to 34 boyz and just failed the charge because removing 10 models ruined the charge distance.
Turn 4, Orks concede because GW hates them and Tau goes on to complain about how they need buffs because the Orks almost hit them with a knife.
This also doesn't take into account the fact that Tau can just run backwards the entire time and stay barely within range and continue to infuriate the ork player
I don't think you know how to play the game.
well since someone thought it was perfectly ok to compare Space Marine tacticals to Tau Firewarriors I went ahead and did the same thing. Clearly its not a real game scenario, my point though is that in this edition stat lines don't mean anything. Realistically the only stats (in 7th edition) that matter are BS, T, W Sv and LD to an extent. WS, Initiative attacks and strength are almost worthless because you never get to CC, or if you do your killed the following turn when you wipe out your target. So when you compare a Space Marines statline and a Fire warriors and go "Ohh well see the Space Marine has better stats across the board he should cost way more" you fail to take into account that in a shooty edition, the side that can put more rounds down range quickest is going to win.
A SM is humanities Elite, he is armed with a rapid fire rifle that shoots RPGs for all intents and purposes. If Tau had the same S4 with 30 inch range it wouldn't be as big of a deal, but since GW decided to give these guys a S5 rifle at 30 inches it becomes a big deal. Not to mention they can then buff entire units with better BS and ignores cover for a few more points.
The point we are trying to make is that Tau Fire warriors and tau in general are under costed for what they do because they are a shooty army in a shooty edition. Orks, Space Marines, Nids and other armies are paying premium points for Close Combat stats in a game right now where Close combat is significantly diminished.
I have played Orks for a long time and I generally don't turn down games unless the person is a known TFGWAAC player. However, I actively dread playing against Tau because I know that its going to be a long game of me trying to hide from LoS and then removing every model that I don't manage to hide. It is not enjoyable because GW has given Tau to many ranged abilities and given CC armies very few ways to mitigate them or find a way to get close to the assault in order to stop the ranged slaughter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And of course that isn't even touching on the fact that all of the Tau Vehicles are in fact MC and GMC so therefore are even HARDER to get rid of when you do get close enough because....reasons.
If all tau suits were Vehicles and followed those rules it would be a different story.
raverrn wrote: Do 400 points of orks vs. 600 points of Crisis Suits. No weapons on them, because apparently you don't allow that in your comparisons.
Buff Crisis Suits!
Which buffs would you give the Orks in my previous scenario that would allow them to win that particular fight? Go ahead and crunch the numbers, for every 10 boyz take a heavy weapon, for every 10 you can take a nob with a PK, if you really want you can upgrade them 4pts a model with Eavy armor to give them a 4+ save.
SO do the math, or let me know which upgrades you would use, list tailor to win that fight? probably just the 4+ armor so orks become 10pts a model (more expensive then Fire warriors) Here i'll even do it for you, no upgrades for the Tau and 4+ armor for the Boyz. 400pts of fire warriors is again 44 Fire Warriors vs 600pts of orks or 60 Boyz in Eavy Armor.
Turn one the Tau fire 44 shots, 22 hits, 14 wounds 7 dead orks, orks move 6 and run 4 (20 inches away.)
Turn two the tau move back 6 inches, fire 44 shots kill 7 more orks, Orks move forward 6 run 4 (16 inches away)
Turn three tau move back 6 inches, fire 44 shots and kill 7 more orks, Orks move forward 6 run 4 (12 inches away)
Turn four Tau move back 6 inches, fire 44 shots, kill 7 more orks, Orks move forward 6 run 4 (8 inches away)
Turn five Tau move back 6 inches DOUBLE TAP fire 88 shots kill 14 more orks, orks move forward 6 attempt 8 inch Charge, OVERWATCH 88 shots = 14 hits 10 wounds and 5 more dead orks. Total casualties so far: Tau: 0 Orks: 47. Orks now have 13 remaining models Tau have 44.
This of course is in a vacuum, no intervening terrain, no other units inflicting random damage and other factors. The point is that in a shooty game Tau reign supreme where as all CC armies languish in the dust.
So please tell me which buffs would help the ork Boyz more? I am talking about basic ork gear no added ICs and such.
So for Ork boyz to be effective against Tau Fire warriors they need to take a 110 pt (Naked) Heavy Support choice?
You just edited so let me do likewise, KFF has to be taken on an IC so thats a 50pt upgrade on a 35pt model or 39 with eavy armor or 75 if you give them Mega Armor. Your quickly racking up those points my friend. And a KFF only gives a 6inch radius bubble that grants a 5++ to shooting attacks. Also if you put him in Mega Armor you can't run your boyz so your exposed to more shooting.
Again, im well aware this isn't a WW1 battle, I am doing the numbers in a vacuum as I pointed out. Since you can't follow the simple premise of boyz vs Fire Warriors, go ahead and make me the strongest Codex Complaint, BOUND ork list you can that would beat your average TAU list.
raverrn wrote: Yes. Just like they need one to be effective against Knights or Thunderfire Cannons.
I am very well aware of that, however the point I was making is that Fire Warriors are SUPERIOR to Ork boyz and tactical Space Marines, or really any type of unit that spends most of its points for CC stats in 7th edition where shooting is so much stronger then assault.
Blacksails wrote: I think everyone was already acutely aware that Orks are near bottom tier and obviously lose to Tau in any sensible match up.
True Blacksails but again the point I was making was for ALL armies and units that spend points on CC weapons and stats. Tau prove that having MC, Battle Suit infantry, regular infantry and GMC that spend their points on ranged weapons are superior to similar units that spend their points on CC.
I honestly can't think of any unit that does CC predominantly that is worth much in this game with maybe the exception of the Necron one, and only then because it comes in a formation that for all intents and purposes gives is a 4+ FNP that can't be taken away, as well as an invul save. And that unit is only worth as much as it is because on top of the durability it has, it is inside a group of necrons that lay down a fairly impressive amount of fire power.
If you're going to make a comparison, at least make it worthwhile.
Comparing a top tier army with a solid troop choice against a bottom tier army with a weak troop choice doesn't show much of anything.
Its like comparing riptides to ratlings and then declaring that Tau/Riptides are OP. No gak, we knew that before the comparison was made to an obviously bottom tier unit.
Now, as you pointed out, a comparison to necrons would much more apt and carry some weight in a point.
Don't bring really powerful units against weaker tier codex. Mix it up a bit if you can with weaker units. House rules. Give your opponent extra points if you have something super strong. Feel free to discuss what you would like to bring in advance. Play with more terrain.
My friend doesn't bring multiple heldrakes and I don't run all Ravenwing. Done. Sometimes we play scenarios. Like if he ran a complete nurgle army against a fortified dark Angels fortress with just a space marines company of dark Angels how long would it last? One sided? OK how so? Not enough terrain. OK let's run it in a city and make it khorne demonkin. It was a blood bath. Sure I can overwatch at full bs but with all the cover and kill zones my marines died in droves. Point is the game is just that. Play what you like and talk to others to find what they like.
Blacksails wrote: If you're going to make a comparison, at least make it worthwhile.
Comparing a top tier army with a solid troop choice against a bottom tier army with a weak troop choice doesn't show much of anything.
Its like comparing riptides to ratlings and then declaring that Tau/Riptides are OP. No gak, we knew that before the comparison was made to an obviously bottom tier unit.
Now, as you pointed out, a comparison to necrons would much more apt and carry some weight in a point.
Necron warriors are themselves shootyish and only cost as much as they do because of there durability, not there CC statlines (which are decent except the initiative being 2) Put another way, if I lowered Necron Warriors WS to 2 would it drastically effect their army? But by the same token would I then be justified in reducing their price by 2 pts? Of course the cost of the unit is also a direct reflection of the weapon as well, gauss is very good but similar to bolters, but for some reason space Marines are still more expensive, even though Necron warriors have almost the exact same stats except initiative (2 lower), leadership (2 higher) and Armor save (necrons 4 SM 3) but necrons also have that wonderfully inbuilt 5+ RP which realistically makes them more durable then a marine.
Regardless the point I was making was that CC armies and units are weaker then Shooty armies and units, but since there are ZERO "Top Tier" armies with CC Infantry its rather hard to comply.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
raverrn wrote: Dreadknights seem to do melee very well. As do Imperial Knights. Wulfen are fantastic in CC.
The point you're trying to make is slow, poorly protected melee units are bad.
Dreadknights do not do well in melee, they might be able to beat up weak CC units but most of a Dreadnights points are spent on his durability and his amazing ranged weapons. Even with all of that I recently killed a dreadknight in CC with a Warboss on a bike and a Painboy on bike attached to a warbike squad. At the end of combat I only had 2 wounds on my warboss and 1 on my painboy and the unit of 5 warbikers (including a nob) were dead. But guess what? those 4 warbiker wounds, 2 Nob biker wounds all came from the Dreadknights SHOOTING, he managed 2 wounds on the unit once it got into CC.
Imperial Knights do very good in CC if you can get them there. Not because they are good at CC (They Aren't) but because they are a super heavy walker and benefit from the "Stomp" rule. I have yet to face wulfen (or space wolves in general) so I can't comment.
The point I made is very plain to see and doesn't involve "Poorly protected melee units" but ALL Melee units. The fact that two of your units you used to say are good units are some of the shootiest in the game tells you something.
raverrn wrote: Marines have several advantages over 'crons - Pistols and grenades, ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics....
And Necrons have a 5+ RP that can be turned into a 4+ RP. So realistically they are even or more likely leaning in favor of the Necrons, ATSKNF is good, but again its really only good for CC.
raverrn wrote: As soon as you bring formations into it SM get free transports, and that drives cost way, way, way down.
True, but again were getting off topic, free units is a completely other can of worms I would rather not get into right now.
In 7th edition try and find a single unit that BY ITSELF is good at Close combat, or failing that find a unit that is good at CC that is in a predominantly CC army.
Does that really matter though? Practically everything in a Tau army is a threat to a Battle Company. Seems it would be a game slanted towards Tau from the beginning.
40 PPM cavalry, 4 attacks, (5 on charge, 6 if you givem CCWs I believe) T5 3+ armor, or 55ppm if you give them all 3++ saves. And at least 1 will have a Power Fist so for 5 models your looking at 300pts
easy counter....massed fire power. My lootas would drown this unit in Fire power. Lootaz are 14ppm so I can take 21 against those thunderwolves, Average 2 shots a turn thats 42 shots, 14 hits, and 12 wounds. With a 3++ save you will fail on average 3 of those meaning 1.5 dead thunderwolves, in 2 turns I will have killed 3 and made the unit borderline worthless, and thats against ORK shooting, against Tau? GG.
Are you kidding me? They'll be in combat on the top of turn two, and 3.5 Thunderwolves will murder an arbitrary number of Lootas. They'll do the same to any Tau unit bar a Stormsurge.
Not even mentioning their turn 1 charge shenanigans.
raverrn wrote: Are you kidding me? They'll be in combat on the top of turn two, and 3.5 Thunderwolves will murder an arbitrary number of Lootas. They'll do the same to any Tau unit bar a Stormsurge.
Not even mentioning their turn 1 charge shenanigans.
I don't know about how you position your heavy support but i put mine in the back behind the cheap disposable infantry. So how would a turn 1 charge work?
Wulfen Formation that gives you two movement phases. If you want extra reach grab the SW start collecting bundle for run + charge. Combo'd with fleet it's an average 36".
raverrn wrote: Wulfen Formation that gives you two movement phases. If you want extra reach grab the SW start collecting bundle for run + charge. Combo'd with fleet it's an average 36".
And you would still have to get by the bubble wrap infantry who are themselves capable of inflicting wounds on the thunderwolves. Not to mention a Nob with a PK hidden in the group which will eat 1-2 of those Thunderwolves himself.
Against Tau yes you would most definitely get that first turn assault, but you would have to survive that ridiculous over watch they put out which will murder most armies.
raverrn wrote: Amazing how qui you went from "my unit will take yours" to "my unit plus a bunch of others..."
Why did i do that again? ohh yea because you went from 1 unit of thunderwolves to taking a formation to give them 2 movement phases LMAO. But go ahead and crunch the numbers yourself. 1 unit of Thunderwolves equipped however you want versus a similar point total of Lootaz. Lootas win. and Lootas suck.
Put those same TWC against a good armies high volume units and your done.
Put another way you think TWC are the best CC unit, put them against the best shooty unit I can think of, Scat Bikes, Who wins? I'll give you a hint its not the wolves
Automatically Appended Next Post:
raverrn wrote: bs. The first thing you said was "Well, they're bubble wrapped so..."
Actually you mentioned the turn 1 shenanigans first and then I mentioned putting them in the backfield where a heavy support unit belongs. The turn 1 shenanigans is when I mentioned bubble wrap. But again, the only way those work is in a formation that gives them an insane buff like double movement.
So you're saying every unit is balanced then? Because one unit that is good against another is bad against yet another unit? If that is the case, why do people complain about tau being OP?
Truth to be told, there are armies that can win tau. Maybe not wreck them, but if you play standard maelstrom missions, things such as gladius strike force and daemon farms literally wins tau by points and sometimes even win in destroying units.
Or a car or plane or one of the half dozen ways to assault out of deep strike. Or be a deathstar, or be dirt cheap, or infiltrate outside 1" and still be able to assault...
There's a reason Tau didn't place in the latest LVO. They're not a top tier army.
raverrn wrote: Or a car or plane or one of the half dozen ways to assault out of deep strike. Or be a deathstar, or be dirt cheap, or infiltrate outside 1" and still be able to assault...
Yeah the new genestealer formation is really awesome! Bad for my tau, but still awesome!
In the previous incarnation of Eldar it was fun to play vs Tau.
For this, I moved my Serpents into position in round one and targeted the Pathfinders to get rid of the marker lights.
The best part began when my outflanking Warwalkers with scatter lasers entered the board.
But I also should mention that the Fire Dragons when disembarking from the Serpents did a lot of damage.
raverrn wrote: Or a car or plane or one of the half dozen ways to assault out of deep strike. Or be a deathstar, or be dirt cheap, or infiltrate outside 1" and still be able to assault...
There's a reason Tau didn't place in the latest LVO. They're not a top tier army.
They just make their opponents feel bad.
It is a top tier army. Problem being that ITC doesn't like tau:
1. Drone Factory was banned the week before.
2. No sharing abilities when CFP, and when doing so the target locks stopped working.
and, I must be playing them wrong. my opponents seldom have a problem getting into assault with my guys.
raverrn wrote: Or a car or plane or one of the half dozen ways to assault out of deep strike. Or be a deathstar, or be dirt cheap, or infiltrate outside 1" and still be able to assault...
There's a reason Tau didn't place in the latest LVO. They're not a top tier army.
They just make their opponents feel bad.
It is a top tier army. Problem being that ITC doesn't like tau:
1. Drone Factory was banned the week before.
2. No sharing abilities when CFP, and when doing so the target locks stopped working.
and, I must be playing them wrong. my opponents seldom have a problem getting into assault with my guys.
I would like to state that Tau didn't make top 8... but I know the player that placed top 20 and went 4-0-2 <- a pretty strong showing considering. The opinions of most of the Tau players at LVO was that these "nerfs" didn't really matter to much, if anything made Tau lists more versatile throughout all the lists brought.
___________________
So I think we can all conclude that you can't compare unit A to unit B directly, because every debate escalated into army synergy splashed in to make one better then the other... and guess what that is what 40k is.. making your list synergistic and trying to cover about 60% of the situations you will encounter. Yes even if you do that, you will play lists that you stomp into dust, and you will play lists that stomp you into dust. It is what it is.
I think if most of the effort put in to blame the players, GW, and <insert hated army here>, was put into practicing and learning how to win more than the Kill Points part of the game, most will be better off
To paraphrase: "...models that have CC capabilities factored into their points cost are bad in a game primarily focused on shooting. Tau haven an advantage when they have no CC capabilities factored into their cost and only need to use the easy to utilize shooting capabilities... they define min-maxing"
That's an interesting observation,
comparing underwhelming tactical marines and ork units only serve to evidence how bad those units (and the entirety of the Ork faction) are. Perhaps a more valid comparison would be to compare a top tier assault army such as post Wulfen Space Wolves or mid tier formation heavy KDK with a strong Tau list to see how game breaking the faction is.
From my own experience I've had entire units consistently removed from interceptor, overwatch or a plethora of skyfire, and that says nothing about the high BS, low AP, ignore cover weapons/ abilities they have... I have to acknowledge that most of these abilities are paid for, but does having those buffs being available to mostly everything (through equipment markerlight or formation) break the game or can those force multipliers be effectively countered before they inflict too much damage?
As for making the game fun vs Tau: A packed board filled with LOS blocking terrain with fixed firing lanes open and a strong Tau list that focuses more on fast mobility and positioning than long range ignore cover/LOS firepower
And I've had root canals that were more fun than playing a game with you would be.
Traditio wrote: Tau are fundamentally unfun to play against because of how that army operates. By playing Tau, you have opted to play a "broken" codex.
No, I didn't "opt to play a broken codex". I picked Tau because they looked cool and that's basically that. No one said jack gak to me about the rules before I started buying them, and even if they did, I probably wouldn't have thought much of them anyway. Probably would have just thought they were being a fething jerk and ignored them.
Honestly, if some complete stranger walked up to me in a store, started ranting about a game I knew nothing about, and they got hostile with me because I was looking at Tau models, I probably would have called the cops, no joke. Or at least complained to the manager and had them kicked out. Hell, the "40k is a waste of money, buy WARMACHINE!" comments were bad enough.
Why did you decide to play Tau? Simply because they look cool?
DING DING DING. Yes. Exactly. And I don't know why that's so hard to believe, either. "How on earth could anyone possibly like this thing that I don't like? Does...not...compute!"
Why did you pick Space Marines?
Traditio wrote: Or because you knew that they were a really strong army?
In 4th edition they weren't. Although this is kind of a stupid question anyway, because I imagine most people don't want to knowingly play a bad army, since being constantly at a disadvantage isn't fun. Clearly, or you wouldn't be in here bitching about Tau right now.
Also, when I started looking into the tabletop version I just naturally assumed, like with most other games I've played, that the armies would all be relatively balanced and that picking one was just a matter of personal preference. To me, the idea that a game focused around a model-building hobby, which costs hundreds and hundreds of dollars to get into, with over a dozen playable factions, had some factions that were just inherently superior to all others and some that were hot garbage and not at all worth playing, just seemed really, really stupid, and I couldn't imagine a company that does business internationally surviving for as long as GW has if that were the case. What a surprise that turned out to be!
Traditio wrote: How much research did you do before deciding to play Tau?
I played Dawn of War, basically, and Tau seemed cool. That was my "research".
Traditio wrote: Were you unaware of the general Tau hate when you purchased your codex and models?
Yes, because being my younger, dumber self, I assumed we were all adults and that people didn't take games that seriously. I couldn't imagine something so stupid as a grown-ass man having real, genuine hate for a range of plastic miniatures, especially to the point where said grown-ass man starts to harass other people for liking those miniatures that he doesn't like.
Apparently I was fething wrong.
Martel732 wrote: I liked the Tau vehicle upgrade that made them fast, but not fast. That was so thematically accurate.
Yeah, the vehicular multi-tracker if I'm not mistaken. Stuff like that, and the advanced stabilization system upgrade for broadsides which allowed them to move and fire their guns, actually gave Tau players some incentive to move gak around.
But then GW thought that was lame, apparently; they took it away in 6th edition and turned us into the much-loved turtle masters we are now who never leave their deployment zone ever.
Of course the multi-tracker wouldn't matter even if we did get it back, since no one in their right mind would take vehicles now anyway...unless they're literally free. Tanks are so bad now, and weapons like the hammerhead railgun so useless, that even being able to move and fire like a fast vehicle again wouldn't be enough to convince me that they're worth wasting points on.
pm713 wrote:And Space Marine armour is constructed.
The armor is. The marine isn't. Thus the toughness value and the armor save.
The riptide is not literally a robot, it's a giant suit of armor with a flesh and blood Tau piloting it in the center. It's basically a giant Space Marine.
So going by that logic you can justify giving walker stats to Space Marines, and literally just about any other heavy infantry unit in the game.
ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote: A SM is humanities Elite, he is armed with a rapid fire rifle that shoots RPGs for all intents and purposes. If Tau had the same S4 with 30 inch range it wouldn't be as big of a deal, but since GW decided to give these guys a S5 rifle at 30 inches it becomes a big deal. Not to mention they can then buff entire units with better BS and ignores cover for a few more points.
You could make pulse rifles S4 if you really, really wanted and I don't think I could possibly give less of a gak about anything ever again in my life. Fire warriors, like your tactical Marines, aren't what's going to be doing all the damage anyway. They don't matter.
This almost feels like a joke...watching people bitch endlessly about fire warriors and S5, all while they're being bent over the table by riptide wings, getting stomped on by multiple storm surges or pulling big handfuls of models off the table because of super overwatch. No, you're right, the two min-sized squads of fire warriors sitting in reserves or doing literally nothing in the backfield are to blame...pay no attention to the army of colossi with tank guns strapped to their arms disintegrating everything on the table.
Meanwhile, the Eldar are utterly dominating the meta and even outnumbering Space Marine players at tournaments, and their codex is so good that you can almost literally select units at random and still end up with a good list, but meh.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I would just like to note that "Eldar are more broken!" is not a defense of the Tau codex, nor does it make the Tau more fun to play against
It's like saying that Pol Pot was fine because Hitler existed.
Not sure I like my favorite faction be equated to Hitler but OK lol
As for Fire Warriors being broken because they have a 30" S5 gun.
They had a 30" S5 gun in 4th edition and nobody complained they were broken then. They had a 30" S5 gun in 5th edition and weren't broken. They have dropped 2 points per model once you factor in photon grenades and have gained Supporting Fire, both of which do precisely nothing until the enemy is within 12" of the unit and charging them and even then Supporting Fire relies on other units with the same rule being nearby.
Now the move and fire at max range on Rapid Fire weapons actually benefits other armies more than Tau. With this rule if your marines are within 30" then the Tau can shoot you but the next turn you can close 6" and return fire at 24" with your boltguns. Previously, if the Tau were shooting you at 30" then your marines would move 6" to close the range to 24" but then could only shoot up to 12" and so had to sit still and wait until the next round to return fire. So your marines had to weather two rounds of shooting before being able to return fire compared to the one round they face now.
So is dropping 2 points whilst retaining the exact same wargear and statline whilst the rules make it easier for armies to respond to Fire Warrior shooting made them horrendously OP, or is it the other stuff that Tau have gained which have made them stronger?
I'd also like to point out that the latter stuff is not generally something which, in my experience, Tau players were asking for prior to the 6th edition codex update. We weren't asking for super unkillable, undercosted giant mecha. We basically wanted: Crisis and Stealth suits to drop in price (and get a new Crisis and Broadside kit), Fire Warriors to get a new kit, the ability to take Crisis suits as Troops in a Farsight army, Hammerhead squadrons and not requiring pathfinders to take a devilfish. More Kroot options was also a popular wish. Out of all that we got cheaper crisis suits, the pathfinder change and the crisis troops when the farsight enclaves rules were released. Then they took away the systems which made our vehicles work (fire-as-fast and split fire), made Broadsides the size of a dreadnought with no corresponding change in toughness whilst also weakening their iconic gun to be basically useless and gave us the abomination of the Riptide which required massive retcons of the fluff in order to justify its existence.
Every time I see a thread like this as a Tau player, the people who are complaining just blow my mind. Almost universally everyone is complaining about the wrong units, and it just confuses me so so much. Like, are y'all just playing with bad Tau players? What is going on here.
Let's give a quick run down of Tau units in the codex.
HQs Commander - Outside of a buffmander or mark'o, literally nobody cares.
Ethereal - Cheap HQ option, nice for the 6+ fnp or stubborn. For 50 points, not bad.
Farsight - Are you playing a Farsight bomb? (Don't, it's bad). Cool, he's unplayable.
Shadowsun - Not good, either?
Aun'shi - Bet you haven't even heard of this guy.
Aun'va - The space pope. Bet you nobody here has even seen this model in person
Cadre Fireblade - Underappreciated Tau HQs, but not bad for their points.
Darkstrider - Bet you've never seen this guy played, either. Amazing in a Hunter Contingent, but I've yet to meet a Tau player who has built that.
So, of the HQs, there are really: Ethereals, Buffmanders, Mark'Os, Fireblades, and Darkstrider. Which of these are broken OP? Maaaaybe some of you don't like the Buffmander, but for 200 points he's not exactly cheap. He's the equivalent to a Chapter Mater with the Shield Eternal and/or Hunters Eye. Know which one I'd take? Hmm...
Troops
Strike Teams - These are getting complained about in here? Huh? Who runs mass Firewarriors? Who thinks that's even playable? Who are you people losing to Firewarriors? They're T3, 4+ save dudes. They're as durable as IG vets with no special weapons, except they're BS3. Who here thinks IG vets are OP? Let's run through some counters:
Eldar - Shoot them with bikes.
Marines - Heavy flamers in drop pods, Heavy flamers in landspeeders, a Thunderfire cannon.
Necrons - Shoot them with immortals.
Admech - Shoot them with anything. Or assault them with the fast dudes. Or jus ignore them.
IG - Shoot them with any number of AP4 large blasts.
I can continue, but really guys. If Firewarriors are beating you, you need to build better lists. They just straight up aren't very good.
Breacher teams - These are unplayably bad. 5" range for the good profile, lol, okay. Then they become worse then the above bad Firewarriors.
Kroot - Yay for outflanking shenanigans? I don't think anyone is arguing Kroot are good. They're not.
All Tau troops are bad. The only ones potentially worth playing are Crisis Suits through Farsight, and even then, no.
Elites
Stealth Battlesuits - They cost as much a Terminator but are T3 3+ and fire a worthless gun! Woo! Seriously overpriced, these things are tax on Ghostkeels.
Crisis Battlesuits - They're 52 points a model for a T4 3+ no invuln no cover 2W model. Krak Missiles, hoooo!
Ghostkeels - Now, these are a really good unit. One of the best in the Tau codex. Nobody is complaining about them, though. Weird? I'll leave that alone, but really. Complain about these. The OSC makes them worth complaining about (kind of? It's still a 600 point formation that dies to assault marines.).
Riptides - All of the complaining that revolves around these things blows my mind. Yes, they're hard to kill (If you don't have grav or D or the ability to assault, so... low tier codecies, I guess?), but they don't do very much. The IA gets hot 1/6th of the time. It scatters 2/3rds of the time at BS3. The odds of this thing actually hitting on target are 32.4%. The odds of it missing completely are 32.4%. Not a typo, same percentage. So basically, a third of the time it works, a third of the time it doesn't, a third of the time it kind of does.
How does this scare you? It's a 200 point model that makes Grey Knight Paladins and Ork Mega Armoured Nobs afraid. Nobody else should care? Seriously?
Fast Attack
Drone Teams - Nobody takes them outside of the Mark'O build.
Piranhas - When's the last time you saw one of these?
Pathfinders - Also terrible unless they're in the Ranged Support Cadre, then they're playable.
Devilfish - 80 points for 12 11 10 3 HP. Hah.
Sunshark - Have you ever seen a Tau flier?
Razorshark - See above?
Vespid - Worst unit in the book. Get fethed, auxiliaries.
Heavy Support
Sniper Drone Team - BS5 markerlights is nice. Only ever seen one person use them, these are underappreciated.
Hammerheads - Single shot railguns! Ion cannons! On 130 point platforms that are vehicles with AV13 front? And can't move? Please. I wish Hammerheads were good. I got into Tau for the grav-vehicles aesthetic and because I loooooved Railguns as a child. They're terrible. If I could run a Tau armoured company with 6 Hammerheads, 6 Warfish, 3 Skyrays and some fliers, I would go down on that SO hard. But I would lose 80-90% of my games, which sucks a lot.
Skyrays - Probably the best vehicle Tau have for the markerlights and the fact that they're cheap, but still not great.
Broadsides - The other OP unit in our Codex (as far as that attitude goes. Nothing in our Codex is OP, check ANY tournament results. No Tau are winning gak. Thanks Eldar.) Broadsides are really good. They're also static as feth, and die to meltaguns like you would not believe. A tac squad with melta combi melta in a drop pod will go point efficient against Broadsides a lot of the time, assuming you can survive the interceptor (the other reason these are really good).
Stormsurges - These boys are also good, but have a few key weaknesses. The first being they're T6 3+, so Krak Missiles are a problem. Knights with gatling cannons are a BIG problem. Anything with power firsts is a problem. They require some work to bring down for sure, and put out a lot of firepower, but they're also fething 380 points if kitted lightly, 430 if kitted with a shield. Go compare that to a wraithknight and get back to me.
So, yeah. There are like 5-6 playable units in this Codex. The rest of it is REALLY bad. I lose a majority of my games as Tau against my friends, and then do decently (3-0 and 4-1 normally) at tournaments. But I'm never winning anything. It's a matter of knowing what you're doing, target priority, and flexible list design.
A Space Marine list with Hunters Eye, Centurions in a pod, and 4 tac squads in pods will run my day real fast. So will ignore cover relic tanks. There are plenty of answers to Tau, and good tournament players know them. I don't know what's going on with Firewarriors and Riptides, sounds like bots posting from 6e, but the world has evolved.
LockeWatts wrote: I lose a majority of my games as Tau against my friends, and then do decently (3-0 and 4-1 normally) at tournaments. But I'm never winning anything. It's a matter of knowing what you're doing
I think I see the problem the h8ers are having.
This thread has given me the impression that Tau get hate way out of proportion to any reasonable analysis of their codex, just because everything about them rubs certain people the wrong way. If we were a low-tier list they would still find reasons to hate us, because just by existing we force them to think differently about how they play, how the 40k universe works, and how to regard RL people who are different from them.
There are valid complaints to be made, about playing against Tau. But when I wrote this thread I assumed everyone already knew them (non-interactive, superheavies, etc.). I was looking for ways to get around them, not to enable scrubs who don't want to change up the way that they play, but so I can change up the way that I play, to make things more challenging / interesting. Because believe it or not, I don't enjoy sitting on gunlines and being unable to contest the rest of the board. Or curbstomping fellow newbies.
Thanks to everyone who's provided constructive analysis and suggestions. Especially Sidstyler. That was epic.
No thanks to the scrubs who (collectively) called the Tau Pol Pot and called for Tau players' extermination, without any hint of irony.
Riptides - All of the complaining that revolves around these things blows my mind. Yes, they're hard to kill (If you don't have grav or D or the ability to assault, so... low tier codecies, I guess?), but they don't do very much. The IA gets hot 1/6th of the time. It scatters 2/3rds of the time at BS3. The odds of this thing actually hitting on target are 32.4%. The odds of it missing completely are 32.4%. Not a typo, same percentage. So basically, a third of the time it works, a third of the time it doesn't, a third of the time it kind of does.
How does this scare you? It's a 200 point model that makes Grey Knight Paladins and Ork Mega Armoured Nobs afraid. Nobody else should care? Seriously?
Thank you so much for pointing this out in detail.
The Riptide is a Distraction Carnifex. If you're freaking out about it, it's doing its job.
Can you not ask your friends to just bring their A-Game when you play them =P
Honestly my philosophy regardless of what army I play and what "level" it is constructed has always been... if its legal 40k then by all means have fun. You paid for the models, you took the time to paint them OR spent more money to have them painted.. Your proud of what you have, not me or anyone else should be able to tell you to pack up and go home.
As I think this thread is about all its gonna be for "advice", I would say if you really are worried about it, run a CAD, don't run any of the formations and aside from that just play what you want. Don't bring a GMC unless they have one etc.
I lose a majority of my games as Tau against my friends, and then do decently (3-0 and 4-1 normally) at tournaments. But I'm never winning anything. It's a matter of knowing what you're doing, target priority, and flexible list design.
I don't lose the majority of my games lol, but i am about 60/40 now. It used to be heavy losses because I wasn't as good of a player.. yes even losing to Deldar, BA, orks, chaos.. etc.. and I still do on occasion because my friends are good players themselves.
Tau are top teir so people will just hate as I stated before.
Riptides - All of the complaining that revolves around these things blows my mind. Yes, they're hard to kill (If you don't have grav or D or the ability to assault, so... low tier codecies, I guess?), but they don't do very much. The IA gets hot 1/6th of the time. It scatters 2/3rds of the time at BS3. The odds of this thing actually hitting on target are 32.4%. The odds of it missing completely are 32.4%. Not a typo, same percentage. So basically, a third of the time it works, a third of the time it doesn't, a third of the time it kind of does.
How does this scare you? It's a 200 point model that makes Grey Knight Paladins and Ork Mega Armoured Nobs afraid. Nobody else should care? Seriously?
Thank you so much for pointing this out in detail.
It is an incorrect assesment however. A BS3 large blast will still hit its intended target about 60% of the time, as scatter subtraction allows for it to either remain on target or still clip whatever the hole was originally over. If its a larger target, like an MC or vehicle, the hit percentage goes up further
The Riptide is a Distraction Carnifex.
you dont see Tyranid armies running gobs of carnifexes, or even routinely running them at all. They also cant strike from across the board, and have nothing near the resiliency or mobility. You basically never see a Tau army without Riptides.
Ok didn't really bother reading 12 pages, except from the last page of this thread and the OP's message, and by going through the last page my assumption that the thread would be turned into an "Ergh, Tau" boxing match was correct.
For advise I would look into the following:
1) Screw what some thread says: Why? because I think your area wont be reading Dakka religiously enough to care about what a few hundred people said/voted on some thread. Talk to your area ask them questions about the lists you want to bring and if they feel comfortable with them, if not then consider the following what exactly do the not feel comfortable with?
2) Try Highlander: If people aren't comfortable with some units en.massed then try a Highlander-esque list just take one unit of certain units that your area does not feel comfortable with.
3) Try fish-o-fury, its said that this list is still hard to pull off but it can be done, in addition it adds dynamism to the list. One of the most common complaints I read on tau is how static they are, which at times can lead to really one sided games which no one enjoys, so promote some mobility.
4) Try Supremacy objective and your codex specific ones. lost of people say that these objectives are hard to pull off, but i feel after having a few games with them is that they are more geared for assault-orientated armies as my Orks seem to really love them, so using them with your Tau may add more challenges to your games but improve further dynamism which may lead to closer games.
LockeWatts wrote: Every time I see a thread like this as a Tau player, the people who are complaining just blow my mind. Almost universally everyone is complaining about the wrong units, and it just confuses me so so much. Like, are y'all just playing with bad Tau players? What is going on here.
Let's give a quick run down of Tau units in the codex.
HQs Commander - Outside of a buffmander or mark'o, literally nobody cares.
Ethereal - Cheap HQ option, nice for the 6+ fnp or stubborn. For 50 points, not bad.
Farsight - Are you playing a Farsight bomb? (Don't, it's bad). Cool, he's unplayable.
Shadowsun - Not good, either?
Aun'shi - Bet you haven't even heard of this guy.
Aun'va - The space pope. Bet you nobody here has even seen this model in person
Cadre Fireblade - Underappreciated Tau HQs, but not bad for their points.
Darkstrider - Bet you've never seen this guy played, either. Amazing in a Hunter Contingent, but I've yet to meet a Tau player who has built that.
So, of the HQs, there are really: Ethereals, Buffmanders, Mark'Os, Fireblades, and Darkstrider. Which of these are broken OP? Maaaaybe some of you don't like the Buffmander, but for 200 points he's not exactly cheap. He's the equivalent to a Chapter Mater with the Shield Eternal and/or Hunters Eye. Know which one I'd take? Hmm...
Troops
Strike Teams - These are getting complained about in here? Huh? Who runs mass Firewarriors? Who thinks that's even playable? Who are you people losing to Firewarriors? They're T3, 4+ save dudes. They're as durable as IG vets with no special weapons, except they're BS3. Who here thinks IG vets are OP? Let's run through some counters:
Eldar - Shoot them with bikes.
Marines - Heavy flamers in drop pods, Heavy flamers in landspeeders, a Thunderfire cannon.
Necrons - Shoot them with immortals.
Admech - Shoot them with anything. Or assault them with the fast dudes. Or jus ignore them.
IG - Shoot them with any number of AP4 large blasts.
I can continue, but really guys. If Firewarriors are beating you, you need to build better lists. They just straight up aren't very good.
Breacher teams - These are unplayably bad. 5" range for the good profile, lol, okay. Then they become worse then the above bad Firewarriors.
Kroot - Yay for outflanking shenanigans? I don't think anyone is arguing Kroot are good. They're not.
All Tau troops are bad. The only ones potentially worth playing are Crisis Suits through Farsight, and even then, no.
Elites
Stealth Battlesuits - They cost as much a Terminator but are T3 3+ and fire a worthless gun! Woo! Seriously overpriced, these things are tax on Ghostkeels.
Crisis Battlesuits - They're 52 points a model for a T4 3+ no invuln no cover 2W model. Krak Missiles, hoooo!
Ghostkeels - Now, these are a really good unit. One of the best in the Tau codex. Nobody is complaining about them, though. Weird? I'll leave that alone, but really. Complain about these. The OSC makes them worth complaining about (kind of? It's still a 600 point formation that dies to assault marines.).
Riptides - All of the complaining that revolves around these things blows my mind. Yes, they're hard to kill (If you don't have grav or D or the ability to assault, so... low tier codecies, I guess?), but they don't do very much. The IA gets hot 1/6th of the time. It scatters 2/3rds of the time at BS3. The odds of this thing actually hitting on target are 32.4%. The odds of it missing completely are 32.4%. Not a typo, same percentage. So basically, a third of the time it works, a third of the time it doesn't, a third of the time it kind of does.
How does this scare you? It's a 200 point model that makes Grey Knight Paladins and Ork Mega Armoured Nobs afraid. Nobody else should care? Seriously?
Fast Attack
Drone Teams - Nobody takes them outside of the Mark'O build.
Piranhas - When's the last time you saw one of these?
Pathfinders - Also terrible unless they're in the Ranged Support Cadre, then they're playable.
Devilfish - 80 points for 12 11 10 3 HP. Hah.
Sunshark - Have you ever seen a Tau flier?
Razorshark - See above?
Vespid - Worst unit in the book. Get fethed, auxiliaries.
Heavy Support
Sniper Drone Team - BS5 markerlights is nice. Only ever seen one person use them, these are underappreciated.
Hammerheads - Single shot railguns! Ion cannons! On 130 point platforms that are vehicles with AV13 front? And can't move? Please. I wish Hammerheads were good. I got into Tau for the grav-vehicles aesthetic and because I loooooved Railguns as a child. They're terrible. If I could run a Tau armoured company with 6 Hammerheads, 6 Warfish, 3 Skyrays and some fliers, I would go down on that SO hard. But I would lose 80-90% of my games, which sucks a lot.
Skyrays - Probably the best vehicle Tau have for the markerlights and the fact that they're cheap, but still not great.
Broadsides - The other OP unit in our Codex (as far as that attitude goes. Nothing in our Codex is OP, check ANY tournament results. No Tau are winning gak. Thanks Eldar.) Broadsides are really good. They're also static as feth, and die to meltaguns like you would not believe. A tac squad with melta combi melta in a drop pod will go point efficient against Broadsides a lot of the time, assuming you can survive the interceptor (the other reason these are really good).
Stormsurges - These boys are also good, but have a few key weaknesses. The first being they're T6 3+, so Krak Missiles are a problem. Knights with gatling cannons are a BIG problem. Anything with power firsts is a problem. They require some work to bring down for sure, and put out a lot of firepower, but they're also fething 380 points if kitted lightly, 430 if kitted with a shield. Go compare that to a wraithknight and get back to me.
So, yeah. There are like 5-6 playable units in this Codex. The rest of it is REALLY bad. I lose a majority of my games as Tau against my friends, and then do decently (3-0 and 4-1 normally) at tournaments. But I'm never winning anything. It's a matter of knowing what you're doing, target priority, and flexible list design.
A Space Marine list with Hunters Eye, Centurions in a pod, and 4 tac squads in pods will run my day real fast. So will ignore cover relic tanks. There are plenty of answers to Tau, and good tournament players know them. I don't know what's going on with Firewarriors and Riptides, sounds like bots posting from 6e, but the world has evolved.
Your assessment is mostly spot on. Breachers though can be pretty good with the right list to support them. The top Tau list at LVO had some. Crisis Battlesuits can be good but trying to find enough of the new weapons to field a team with their new non-experimental gun is hard. The one that is str 7 and short range. Drones are usually preferred markerlight platform in tournaments because when paired with the commander and his build it makes them very effective and they are all average toughness of 4 as opposed to pathfinders 3. Piranah Firestream wing and Drone Net is extremely potent combination from FSE. Drown them in drones.
A lot of good Tau lists these days have to bring Y'vahrahs to stand any chance at winning tournaments.
Gamgee wrote: Your assessment is mostly spot on. Breachers though can be pretty good with the right list to support them. The top Tau list at LVO had some. Crisis Battlesuits can be good but trying to find enough of the new weapons to field a team with their new non-experimental gun is hard. The one that is str 7 and short range. Drones are usually preferred markerlight platform in tournaments because when paired with the commander and his build it makes them very effective and they are all average toughness of 4 as opposed to pathfinders 3. Piranah Firestream wing and Drone Net is extremely potent combination from FSE. Drown them in drones.
Anything can be good when a list is built around it.
No I meant the Breachers do well in a list where the opponent has bigger problems than them. The list they were included in took two 5 man breachers w./ emp grenades, an ethereal, and put them in two devilfish.
It also had two Stormsurges, and I think three Y'vahrah. If I'm not mistaken. So what are you going to shoot at? The SS and Y'vahrah? Or the Breachers?
The more heat you can take off of them the better they will perform which is why I think the list had so much unexpected success. He went undefeated. So it's making me want to test some Breachers out in a more casual list without the insane amount of MC and GMC's. I know a lot of bad players who have bad target priority though. So it all depends on how that goes.
Turn one the Tau fire 44 shots, 22 hits, 14 wounds 7 dead orks, orks move 6 and run 4 (20 inches away.)
Turn two the tau move back 6 inches, fire 44 shots kill 7 more orks, Orks move forward 6 run 4 (16 inches away)
Turn three tau move back 6 inches, fire 44 shots and kill 7 more orks, Orks move forward 6 run 4 (12 inches away)
Turn four Tau move back 6 inches, fire 44 shots, kill 7 more orks, Orks move forward 6 run 4 (8 inches away)
Turn five Tau move back 6 inches DOUBLE TAP fire 88 shots kill 14 more orks, orks move forward 6 attempt 8 inch Charge, OVERWATCH 88 shots = 14 hits 10 wounds and 5 more dead orks. Total casualties so far: Tau: 0 Orks: 47. Orks now have 13 remaining models Tau have 44.
Your Fire Warriors started 30" from the Orks and moved back 24", when the standard setup is 24" apart, 12" from the board edge. It's physically imposisble on a 4" table.
Your 13 remaining Orks also win combat by 2 or 3. Well by more probably since 44 FWs are unikely to make it all into combat.
Grizzyzz wrote: So actually I am going to post my 2000 point list i usually take here for critique from those who hate playing Tau to see what you think.
We have started following ITC at my FLGS.. it matters
Turn one the Tau fire 44 shots, 22 hits, 14 wounds 7 dead orks, orks move 6 and run 4 (20 inches away.)
Turn two the tau move back 6 inches, fire 44 shots kill 7 more orks, Orks move forward 6 run 4 (16 inches away)
Turn three tau move back 6 inches, fire 44 shots and kill 7 more orks, Orks move forward 6 run 4 (12 inches away)
Turn four Tau move back 6 inches, fire 44 shots, kill 7 more orks, Orks move forward 6 run 4 (8 inches away)
Turn five Tau move back 6 inches DOUBLE TAP fire 88 shots kill 14 more orks, orks move forward 6 attempt 8 inch Charge, OVERWATCH 88 shots = 14 hits 10 wounds and 5 more dead orks. Total casualties so far: Tau: 0 Orks: 47. Orks now have 13 remaining models Tau have 44.
Your Fire Warriors started 30" from the Orks and moved back 24", when the standard setup is 24" apart, 12" from the board edge. It's physically imposisble on a 4" table.
Your 13 remaining Orks also win combat by 2 or 3. Well by more probably since 44 FWs are unikely to make it all into combat.
So this thought experiment didn't work very well.
I guess you missed that thing I said in an earlier post about this being in a vacuum.
I like Fire warriors, they are probably one of the least appreciated infantry units in the game, and I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that they are over shadowed by GW's Gundam Wing. Fire Warriors are amazing at holding objectives and still being useful with the rng and Strength of their weapons. Compared to other standard infantry they have long ranged High strength weapons. I actually fear these guys in regular games because they pop my vehicles left and right (except my Battle Wagonz).
I generally avoid playing Tau unless I know the individual isn't a tool, not to say all Tau players are tools, but when you challenge the resident Ork player to a game and intend to camp the back field the entire game it gets rather boring. Not to mention that with the exception of Eldar, Tau beat Orks more handily then any other army in the game.
ThatGuyFromThatPlac wrote:I guess you missed that thing I said in an earlier post about this being in a vacuum.
I like Fire warriors, they are probably one of the least appreciated infantry units in the game, and I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that they are over shadowed by GW's Gundam Wing. Fire Warriors are amazing at holding objectives and still being useful with the rng and Strength of their weapons. Compared to other standard infantry they have long ranged High strength weapons. I actually fear these guys in regular games because they pop my vehicles left and right (except my Battle Wagonz).
I generally avoid playing Tau unless I know the individual isn't a tool, not to say all Tau players are tools, but when you challenge the resident Ork player to a game and intend to camp the back field the entire game it gets rather boring. Not to mention that with the exception of Eldar, Tau beat Orks more handily then any other army in the game.
You play orks? You play me, and I'll even ignore Pedro Kantor's preferred enemy rule.
ThatGuyFromThatPlac wrote:I guess you missed that thing I said in an earlier post about this being in a vacuum.
I like Fire warriors, they are probably one of the least appreciated infantry units in the game, and I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that they are over shadowed by GW's Gundam Wing. Fire Warriors are amazing at holding objectives and still being useful with the rng and Strength of their weapons. Compared to other standard infantry they have long ranged High strength weapons. I actually fear these guys in regular games because they pop my vehicles left and right (except my Battle Wagonz).
I generally avoid playing Tau unless I know the individual isn't a tool, not to say all Tau players are tools, but when you challenge the resident Ork player to a game and intend to camp the back field the entire game it gets rather boring. Not to mention that with the exception of Eldar, Tau beat Orks more handily then any other army in the game.
You play orks? You play me, and I'll even ignore Pedro Kantor's preferred enemy rule.
you can keep his rule and I still have a better chance against you then Eldar or Tau.
JimOnMars wrote: Since I play orks, I can safely say that tau are fun to play...if all of their models are proxies for another army.
I love orks.
1. The players who play orks aren't playing to win. They are generally all-around fun people with generally agreeable personalities. If you tell me that you play orks, I automatically assume that you'd be a riot. I want to have a beer with you.
2. If you play orks, I don't even care if I win. Chances are, your army looks cool and has a ton of personality. I don't care if you stomp me. Orks, bro!'
Tons of fun will be had regardless of the outcome of the game.
Grizzyzz wrote: So actually I am going to post my 2000 point list i usually take here for critique from those who hate playing Tau to see what you think.
We have started following ITC at my FLGS.. it matters
Dawn Blade: Retaliation Cadre
...
...
Crisis suits and a riptide?
No thanks.
That is a very informative critique that includes very nice detail and logical reasoning with no shed of ignorance or emotion at all
In all seriousness.. if you don't know how to handle 9 crisis suits and 1 riptide at 2000 points... then I think you should start asking for advice instead of throwing out negatives. I Know I put myself on the chopping block, but I guess I expected more reasoning.. oh well.
Crimson Devil wrote: Sadly, last Saturday I saw an Ork army proxied as Tau. I'll give him credit he put work into his conversions.
Well, fluff wise there is a precedent. When the Tau were fighting against one of the Ork incursions into their space the Orks were using a lot of scavenged Tau tech, which made beating them much more difficult than the Tau were accustomed to ar the time.
late to the party but i hate playing tau because of marker lights. The concept of cover is very important in this game, and Tau makes that trivial. One marker light should be needed for each point of cover to be removed, not 2 ML removing upto a 2+ cover save. Now when i play Tau its all about how much complete LOS blocking terrain i can fit on the field. Lucky for me i have plenty of terrain options to choose from on my table.
stopcallingmechief wrote: late to the party but i hate playing tau because of marker lights. The concept of cover is very important in this game, and Tau makes that trivial. One marker light should be needed for each point of cover to be removed, not 2 ML removing upto a 2+ cover save. Now when i play Tau its all about how much complete LOS blocking terrain i can fit on the field. Lucky for me i have plenty of terrain options to choose from on my table.
I think Cover at its core in this game needs fixing .. then anything that manipulates that can be resolved after.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I never played WFB but I heard that cover in that game was effecting your firing range rather then your save?
stopcallingmechief wrote: late to the party but i hate playing tau because of marker lights. The concept of cover is very important in this game, and Tau makes that trivial. One marker light should be needed for each point of cover to be removed, not 2 ML removing upto a 2+ cover save. Now when i play Tau its all about how much complete LOS blocking terrain i can fit on the field. Lucky for me i have plenty of terrain options to choose from on my table.
I'm inclined to agree. A lot of units rely on cover or jink saves as a major part of their durability. Weapons that inherently ignore cover generally have the disadvantage of being relatively short-ranged, so there's a tradeoff. Being able to apply Ignores Cover to an entire unit's total firepower is a bit much, especially considering how few markerlight hits it takes. If it were two markerlight hits per weapon, I think it'd be much more reasonable. Then it wouldn't get applied to a whole unit's shooting, but Tau players could save it for weapons with either a high ROF or a large area of effect, and it would still be useful without being overpowered.
Crimson Devil wrote: Sadly, last Saturday I saw an Ork army proxied as Tau. I'll give him credit he put work into his conversions.
Well, fluff wise there is a precedent. When the Tau were fighting against one of the Ork incursions into their space the Orks were using a lot of scavenged Tau tech, which made beating them much more difficult than the Tau were accustomed to ar the time.
stopcallingmechief wrote: late to the party but i hate playing tau because of marker lights. The concept of cover is very important in this game, and Tau makes that trivial. One marker light should be needed for each point of cover to be removed, not 2 ML removing upto a 2+ cover save. Now when i play Tau its all about how much complete LOS blocking terrain i can fit on the field. Lucky for me i have plenty of terrain options to choose from on my table.
I'm inclined to agree. A lot of units rely on cover or jink saves as a major part of their durability. Weapons that inherently ignore cover generally have the disadvantage of being relatively short-ranged, so there's a tradeoff. Being able to apply Ignores Cover to an entire unit's total firepower is a bit much, especially considering how few markerlight hits it takes. If it were two markerlight hits per weapon, I think it'd be much more reasonable. Then it wouldn't get applied to a whole unit's shooting, but Tau players could save it for weapons with either a high ROF or a large area of effect, and it would still be useful without being overpowered.
The issue is greater then simply Tau. Psychers can cast a blessing that ignores cover (and with the conclave / tiggy) you have a very high chance of getting that power and others you want. Then their is the white scars relic that simply grants the unit ignore cover. Then there are space marine formations (white scars again? maybe ravenguard?) That units grant each other ignore cover saves lol.
Do whatever you want to markerlights and cover saves would still be disfunctional at the core. And in most situations i would rather up my BS then spend to remove cover.
FURTHER =P bit of advice, pathfinders are bad at shooting and incredibly squishy.. continuing the theme of marines, You have so many options to immediately deal with this problem.. drop a tac squad in a pod with a flamer.. wipe them out in one pass as they have 5+ saves at T3.
I think Cover at its core in this game needs fixing .. then anything that manipulates that can be resolved after.
Putting it bluntly, no. Cover at its core is fine, and the majority of things that manipulate it? They don't have "on demand Ignores Cover". Either you need formation benefits, Orders, or Psykers to gain Ignores Cover--excluding Tau who just expend 2 Markerlight Counters and can grant Ignores Cover to multiple units at once now.
I never played WFB but I heard that cover in that game was effecting your firing range rather then your save?
Nope!
Cover modified the "To Hit" rolls of the firer. To give you an example if it were to affect 40k:
A unit is in soft cover(trees). The firing unit would be at a -1 to their Hit Roll.
In WHFB as well, there were penalties for firing at over half of a weapon's range band(A bow with a 30" range would be at a penalty for firing beyond 15").
The issue is greater then simply Tau. Psychers can cast a blessing that ignores cover (and with the conclave / tiggy) you have a very high chance of getting that power and others you want.
Raven Guard have no access to a Conclave as part of their new Detachment. They have to ally it in as a standalone Formation--and if they take Tigurius, they can't attach him to any of their units unless
Then their is the white scars relic that simply grants the unit ignore cover.
One unit gains Ignore Cover.
Then there are space marine formations (white scars again? maybe ravenguard?) That units grant each other ignore cover saves lol.
The Pinion Demi-Company does this, but it only does the following:
A Scout/Veteran Scout Sergeant from this formation(you HAVE to take 1 unit minimum but can have up to 5--so you can have up to 5 Scout Sergeants) can grant Ignores Cover to a unit within 9" of a unit from this Formation for the duration of the shooting phase.
The units in that formation?
Captain or Chaplain(may not have Terminator Armor)
0-1 Command Squad
3 Tactical Squads
1 Assault Squad
1 Devastator Squad
1-5 Scout or Scout Bike Squads
You REALLY want to pretend that them being able to grant Ignores Cover to those specific units is gamebreaking?
Do whatever you want to markerlights and cover saves would still be disfunctional at the core. And in most situations i would rather up my BS then spend to remove cover.
I'm calling shenanigans on this.
FURTHER =P bit of advice, pathfinders are bad at shooting and incredibly squishy.. continuing the theme of marines, You have so many options to immediately deal with this problem.. drop a tac squad in a pod with a flamer.. wipe them out in one pass as they have 5+ saves at T3.
Tactical Squad in a pod with a Flamer drops--massed EWO fire potentially shoots them down before they get the chance to fire.
Stop pretending that it's "so easy" to bring down Pathfinders. Markerlights are a 36" range weapon in an army with dirt-cheap access to Interceptor on fairly nasty weaponry.
JimOnMars wrote: Since I play orks, I can safely say that tau are fun to play...if all of their models are proxies for another army.
I love orks.
1. The players who play orks aren't playing to win. They are generally all-around fun people with generally agreeable personalities. If you tell me that you play orks, I automatically assume that you'd be a riot. I want to have a beer with you.
2. If you play orks, I don't even care if I win. Chances are, your army looks cool and has a ton of personality. I don't care if you stomp me. Orks, bro!'
Tons of fun will be had regardless of the outcome of the game.
You should meet our resident ork player....
A massive failing rule lawyer, which often results in him getting upset when counter-lawyered, spams LOW in smaller games then complains when we ban them because "I want to play my best units, why can't I?" etc etc etc
He's hyper competitive in one of the most relaxed and casual meta I've been in absolute years!
Putting it bluntly, no. Cover at its core is fine, and the majority of things that manipulate it? They don't have "on demand Ignores Cover". Either you need formation benefits, Orders, or Psykers to gain Ignores Cover--excluding Tau who just expend 2 Markerlight Counters and can grant Ignores Cover to multiple units at once now.
When they use markerlights for "multiple" units at once, that means they are all shooting at ONE unit, but that is a strength of marines.. the ability at deployment to suddenly MSU like crazed dogs
I would not be objected to a cover change for markerlights, I think 1 to 1 might be too much of a penalty given the statistics of actually landing markers... 1 per 2 models. Markers seem really really strong when they are all pointed at one unit .. but spread out they don't have the same escalation. Maybe 1 marker to remove -2 cover.. OR simply reduces the cover save to a minimum of 6+ rather then no cover.
I never played WFB but I heard that cover in that game was effecting your firing range rather then your save?
Nope!
Cover modified the "To Hit" rolls of the firer. To give you an example if it were to affect 40k:
A unit is in soft cover(trees). The firing unit would be at a -1 to their Hit Roll.
In WHFB as well, there were penalties for firing at over half of a weapon's range band(A bow with a 30" range would be at a penalty for firing beyond 15").
Thats right.. What if that cover system was used instead of the current one? Penalties for such long range fire?
There's a guy where I play whose Tau list is an absolute blast to play. His theme is "as close to close combat as possible while not being in it", and he can play any level from casual to super competitive.
He primarily runs short ranged crisis suits, breacher teams, Piranhas, stealth teams, carbine drones and the new Ghostkeel suit with its close range option.
He creates extremely mobile glass cannon short ranged lists and extensively uses terrain. If you want to play competitive, you'll be up against the new Tau-curion with Optimized Stealth Cadre and if you're into fluffy play you'll be fighting an on-foot strike team of breachers backed up by melta stealth suits fighting house-to-house and using terrain to their advantage.
His lists are more fun than any shooting-only army I've ever seen since 5th ed, and he is by far the most popular Tau player in a gaming group I've ever encountered. All that, and he can still punch it out with the most competitive players in our club (who run Gladius, Centstar, WK/Scatbike spam and the like).
Putting it bluntly, no. Cover at its core is fine, and the majority of things that manipulate it? They don't have "on demand Ignores Cover". Either you need formation benefits, Orders, or Psykers to gain Ignores Cover--excluding Tau who just expend 2 Markerlight Counters and can grant Ignores Cover to multiple units at once now.
When they use markerlights for "multiple" units at once, that means they are all shooting at ONE unit, but that is a strength of marines.. the ability at deployment to suddenly MSU like crazed dogs
And...?
Marines aren't the only army in the game to use cover.
Sure, Coordinated Firepower means that "they are all shooting at ONE unit"--but it also means that ALL of the benefits of the Markerlights are given to the firing units. And let's not forget that you get a +1 BS when you're using 3 or more units for Coordinated Firepower to begin with--and it applies to your entire Detachment.
That's a pretty hefty proposition for anyone to have to deal with Suit level firepower getting +1BS(potentially +2 BS if the unit has Fire Team) in addition to whatever Markerlight boosts they get and Ignores Cover.
I would not be objected to a cover change for markerlights, I think 1 to 1 might be too much of a penalty given the statistics of actually landing markers... 1 per 2 models. Markers seem really really strong when they are all pointed at one unit .. but spread out they don't have the same escalation. Maybe 1 marker to remove -2 cover.. OR simply reduces the cover save to a minimum of 6+ rather then no cover.
Until you get SOME kind of protection from Markerlights(whether it be an Initiative test or Leadership test or whatever), it doesn't matter how often you miss. There's no protection from Markerlights when they hit.
If Markerlights were like Luminagen for AdMech, it'd be one thing. Remove a point of Cover for unsaved Wounds caused by a unit with this special rule.
I never played WFB but I heard that cover in that game was effecting your firing range rather then your save?
Nope!
Cover modified the "To Hit" rolls of the firer. To give you an example if it were to affect 40k:
A unit is in soft cover(trees). The firing unit would be at a -1 to their Hit Roll.
In WHFB as well, there were penalties for firing at over half of a weapon's range band(A bow with a 30" range would be at a penalty for firing beyond 15").
Thats right.. What if that cover system was used instead of the current one? Penalties for such long range fire?
There's a reason why Shooting in WHFB required a boatload of models.
Kanlewen, I'm really not sure how you can say that Tau Ignores cover is "on demand" while IG Ignores Cover is not.
-Tau requires a dedicated unit with mostly useless equipment besides the markers, with light durability that needs to be protected
-IG requires a dedicated unit with mostly useless equipment besides the orders, with light durability that needs to be protected
-Tau needs to roll a to-hit roll with options that can buff that up to make it easier to land their Ignores Cover
-IG needs to roll a LD test with options that can buff it up to make it easier (Or, now with the new relic, all but impossible to fail)
Now that I can have a unit of Ignores-Cover Basilisks and Manticores which succeed orders on anything but a 12 on 2D6, I'm really not certain how anyone can say Tau have access to more ignores cover.
IG can grant ignores cover to EVERY infantry unit AND all the artillery, AND the best artillery unit they have comes with it, stock.
Ignores Cover does not make an army strong, or toxic, and it is not a "broken" mechanic. If anything, cover is currently too strong on a number of highly problematic units. Exactly how many of the crazy strong units that exist in the game are the way they are because of the power of the "jink" rule or other cover saves?
Toe in cover for MCs? 2+ rerollable jink save bikes? Jinking Scatterbikes? 2+ Cover Ghostkeels? Anyone?
You REALLY want to pretend that them being able to grant Ignores Cover to those specific units is gamebreaking?
Just want to clarify I never said it was game breaking, I was just citing other available options for the current armies to gain ignores cover (which you can't deny is more available now then it ever was)
Do whatever you want to markerlights and cover saves would still be disfunctional at the core. And in most situations i would rather up my BS then spend to remove cover.
I'm calling shenanigans on this.
Call it what you want. Hop in the Tau Tactics forum and ask which most people would choose. They would choose higher BSmost of the time, like i said. Its a math game. There are times yes, your 2+ rerollable bikers I want to remove cover on because statistically thats better.. but on a 4+ cover.. 5+ cover.. I will take the massed hits to get as many wounds as i can.
FURTHER =P bit of advice, pathfinders are bad at shooting and incredibly squishy.. continuing the theme of marines, You have so many options to immediately deal with this problem.. drop a tac squad in a pod with a flamer.. wipe them out in one pass as they have 5+ saves at T3.
Tactical Squad in a pod with a Flamer drops--massed EWO fire potentially shoots them down before they get the chance to fire.
Stop pretending that it's "so easy" to bring down Pathfinders. Markerlights are a 36" range weapon in an army with dirt-cheap access to Interceptor on fairly nasty weaponry.
Are you ever dropping 1 pod no (unless its a melta vet pod.. i did that all the time ) . It's about target saturation, giving me options. For example from a space wolf game i just played a few weeks ago.. Friend dropped 9 pods on me turn 1 plus had a unit of Thunder Wolf Cav charging at me.. That is target saturation at its best, there was no way to intercept all the threats, not to mention I couldn't simply ignore the TWC that was charging up the table (intercept means i cant shoot that weapon in my next turn).
More realistic to not "blackmanes".. your probably dropping 2 or 3 pods. what if 2 of those pods are grav devastators in skyhammer, and the third is a flamer squad... I am probably going to give up my pathfinders in this specific example, and hopefully you spread out enough to let your meat shields aborb wounds before your grav models.
Crimson Devil wrote: Sadly, last Saturday I saw an Ork army proxied as Tau. I'll give him credit he put work into his conversions.
Well, fluff wise there is a precedent. When the Tau were fighting against one of the Ork incursions into their space the Orks were using a lot of scavenged Tau tech, which made beating them much more difficult than the Tau were accustomed to ar the time.
Sounds interesting. What book was that story in?
The Farsight Enclaves supplement, if I remember correctly.
the_scotsman wrote: Kanlewen, I'm really not sure how you can say that Tau Ignores cover is "on demand" while IG Ignores Cover is not.
-Tau requires a dedicated unit with mostly useless equipment besides the markers, with light durability that needs to be protected
Tau have more options than just Pathfinders for Markerlights. Marker Drones are a thing, and Markerlights are purchasable by multiple units.
-IG requires a dedicated unit with mostly useless equipment besides the orders, with light durability that needs to be protected
IG requires a Company Command Squad and you to be within 12". That is the ONLY way to provide "Fire on my Target!"(Ignores Cover Order).
-Tau needs to roll a to-hit roll with options that can buff that up to make it easier to land their Ignores Cover.
Tau needs to roll a "To Hit" roll and then nothing else. There's no penalties for failing To Hit, you can't get locked out of your Markerlights if you miss.
-IG needs to roll a LD test with options that can buff it up to make it easier (Or, now with the new relic, all but impossible to fail)
IG needs to roll a LD test within a 12" range of the target unit.
Taking Volkov's Cane requires you to declare that you are fielding a Cadian Detachment, which prevents you from taking ANY non-Cadian named characters. So you can take Kell, Creed, and Pask.
That's it. No Nork Deddog, no Yarrick, no Straken, no Harker, etc.
Now that I can have a unit of Ignores-Cover Basilisks and Manticores which succeed orders on anything but a 12 on 2D6, I'm really not certain how anyone can say Tau have access to more ignores cover.
You can have a unit of Ignores Cover Basilisks and a SINGLE Manticore. The Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company does not allow for you to take more than one. It specifically states "Manticore", not "Manticore Battery".
IG can grant ignores cover to EVERY infantry unit AND all the artillery, AND the best artillery unit they have comes with it, stock.
IG can grant Ignores Cover to "EVERY infantry unit" assuming they:
A) Have enough Orders on a Senior Officer to provide the Order to all units(The Emperor's Shield Infantry Company formation can only grant "First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire" to any number of Infantry in the formation, they can't use any other Order)
B) They are within range to issue the Order.
C) They succeed in issuing the Order.
Remember that failing to issue an Order? The unit that you attempted to issue the Order to still counts as having received an Order--and if you rolled double 6s attempting to issue the Order then you cannot attempt to issue an Order for the remainder of the turn.
And no, they can't grant Ignores Cover to "all the artillery". They can do that in a single formation.
Using that as the baseline is like me claiming that the Farsight Conclave's "Ranged Support Cadre" is the baseline for Markerlights(Broadsides getting 2x Marker counters for firing at units designated by the formation's Pathfinders).
Ignores Cover does not make an army strong, or toxic, and it is not a "broken" mechanic. If anything, cover is currently too strong on a number of highly problematic units. Exactly how many of the crazy strong units that exist in the game are the way they are because of the power of the "jink" rule or other cover saves?
The Jink rule is something entirely different. It should never have been applied to Cover saves, period. Either that or Skyfire should have been adapted to Ignore Jink Saves while still allowing for Cover saves.
Toe in cover for MCs?
Yeah...this is an issue with MCs, not Cover. MCs/GMCs need to have the 25% obscured rule applied to them.
2+ rerollable jink save bikes? Jinking Scatterbikes?
Jinking Scatterbikes are an issue only because of their armament.
2+ Cover Ghostkeels? Anyone?
Cover isn't the issue with Ghostkeels, it's the HCMs and the ability to be fielded in a trio.
I am not stating the OSC isn't good.. But all the Tau lists at LVO that brought them did poorly.
Stealth suits are actually a tax to that formation, they are just so bad for the cost... its unfortunate honestly, cool concept and fluff.
The point you made about Jink/cover saves is what I am poking at with "cover needs reworking at its core" I agree, they shouldnt be the same.
Automatically Appended Next Post: OH and IG is just a shame.. they need some really nice love. Some of the Formations they got out of Kauyon were cool, but they didn't fix the core problems with the codex itself.
I understand and agree with several Tau points on here. It still remains that it is unfun to deal with something as durable as the Riptide or Stormsurge. Even if my codex could field them, I don't want to use invisible Centurions.
Martel732 wrote: I understand and agree with several Tau points on here. It still remains that it is unfun to deal with something as durable as the Riptide or Stormsurge. Even if my codex could field them, I don't want to use invisible Centurions.
One thing which really annoyed me about the new Tau formations is that basically every formation which has massed crisis suits also has a Riptide. I don't want a goddamn Riptide, GW!
the_scotsman wrote: There's a guy where I play whose Tau list is an absolute blast to play. His theme is "as close to close combat as possible while not being in it", and he can play any level from casual to super competitive.
He primarily runs short ranged crisis suits, breacher teams, Piranhas, stealth teams, carbine drones and the new Ghostkeel suit with its close range option.
He creates extremely mobile glass cannon short ranged lists and extensively uses terrain. If you want to play competitive, you'll be up against the new Tau-curion with Optimized Stealth Cadre and if you're into fluffy play you'll be fighting an on-foot strike team of breachers backed up by melta stealth suits fighting house-to-house and using terrain to their advantage.
His lists are more fun than any shooting-only army I've ever seen since 5th ed, and he is by far the most popular Tau player in a gaming group I've ever encountered. All that, and he can still punch it out with the most competitive players in our club (who run Gladius, Centstar, WK/Scatbike spam and the like).
I really want to play with lists like that. So tempting to run with pulse carbines instead of rifles sometimes. I have 2 new boxes of fire warriors that Im probably going to run as breachers as two strike teams are already enough.
Grizzyzz wrote: So actually I am going to post my 2000 point list i usually take here for critique from those who hate playing Tau to see what you think.
We have started following ITC at my FLGS.. it matters
I left out some of the fine tuned equipment.. but this is the gist of it... OK IM READY, let me have it.
Crisis suits and a riptide?
No thanks.
Your Retaliation Cadre need 3 units of Crisis teams not three models. Split off the two man team into two individual units and then your legally good. Unless you meant that you have two separate burst cannon ones.
FURTHER =P bit of advice, pathfinders are bad at shooting and incredibly squishy.. continuing the theme of marines, You have so many options to immediately deal with this problem.. drop a tac squad in a pod with a flamer.. wipe them out in one pass as they have 5+ saves at T3.
Even if for sake of argument we simply take this as fact, Pathfinders are far from the only thing in the Tau codex that can take markerlights. Practically every suit can take marker drones, and every Fire Warrior Team leader can take a markerlight and a target lock. So, basically to remove all that markerlight support, a Tau player's opponent has to eliminate practically every suit and character in the Tau player's army, which is no small task by any stretch - certainly a lot harder to accomplish than getting rid of a few squishy Pathfinders.
Your Retaliation Cadre need 3 units of Crisis teams not three models. Split off the two man team into two individual units and then your legally good. Unless you meant that you have two separate burst cannon ones.
FURTHER =P bit of advice, pathfinders are bad at shooting and incredibly squishy.. continuing the theme of marines, You have so many options to immediately deal with this problem.. drop a tac squad in a pod with a flamer.. wipe them out in one pass as they have 5+ saves at T3.
Even if for sake of argument we simply take this as fact, Pathfinders are far from the only thing in the Tau codex that can take markerlights. Practically every suit can take marker drones, and every Fire Warrior Team leader can take a markerlight and a target lock. So, basically to remove all that markerlight support, a Tau player's opponent has to eliminate practically every suit and character in the Tau player's army, which is no small task by any stretch - certainly a lot harder to accomplish than getting rid of a few squishy Pathfinders.
Since those marker sources aren't networked, in practice they are not taken often. And marker drones are bs2 unless your paying more points for a drone controller and on normal crisis troops thats now 8 pts more for bs3? still not great...
Additionally, it requires you to cascade fire onto your targets, either overkilling them or wasting the points you spent in markerlights because you opt to not cascade and waste them.
The single best source of markerlights comes from the commander called "mark'o" which is either a buff commander joined to missle crisis teams with markerlights OR just a barebones guy running around with his ~6 marker drones hoping he doesnt get shot at. Again tho, this unit is anywhere from 200-400 points and the markers are targeting ONE unit.
So yeah, Tau is really good at taking out one major unit a turn. MSU is our bane.
Grizzyzz wrote: So yeah, Tau is really good at taking out one major unit a turn. MSU is our bane.
From the cries it seems Tau have markerlights enough to remove cover from every enemy unit and boost every friendly unit to BS5. Could it be possible that not only the complainers have misunderstood something but maybe some Tau players too? As in using non-networked MLs to boost units that couldn't possibly benefit? It wouldn't be the first time someone's made an error and used an army resource wrong.
JimOnMars wrote: Since I play orks, I can safely say that tau are fun to play...if all of their models are proxies for another army.
I love orks.
1. The players who play orks aren't playing to win. They are generally all-around fun people with generally agreeable personalities. If you tell me that you play orks, I automatically assume that you'd be a riot. I want to have a beer with you.
2. If you play orks, I don't even care if I win. Chances are, your army looks cool and has a ton of personality. I don't care if you stomp me. Orks, bro!'
Tons of fun will be had regardless of the outcome of the game.
Cool bro, I'll share a pint. Or two. Or Quarts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One big solution to the whole ignores cover issue with marker lights would be for marker lights to give ignores cover on non-infantry units only.
That way, if the tau want to light up godzilla they can, but a diligent marine would at least have a chance to duck.
I guess you missed that thing I said in an earlier post about this being in a vacuum.
No I saw that.
But the thought experiment describes a) something that cannot happen at all and b) actually winds up with the Orks winning, thus proving the opposite of what was intended to be proven. What you have actually done is show that Ork Boys running across an open field against equal points of Fire Warriors will win.
Grizzyzz wrote: So yeah, Tau is really good at taking out one major unit a turn. MSU is our bane.
From the cries it seems Tau have markerlights enough to remove cover from every enemy unit and boost every friendly unit to BS5. Could it be possible that not only the complainers have misunderstood something but maybe some Tau players too? As in using non-networked MLs to boost units that couldn't possibly benefit? It wouldn't be the first time someone's made an error and used an army resource wrong.
Grizzyzz wrote: So yeah, Tau is really good at taking out one major unit a turn. MSU is our bane.
From the cries it seems Tau have markerlights enough to remove cover from every enemy unit and boost every friendly unit to BS5. Could it be possible that not only the complainers have misunderstood something but maybe some Tau players too? As in using non-networked MLs to boost units that couldn't possibly benefit? It wouldn't be the first time someone's made an error and used an army resource wrong.
This came up in another thread too where a few people were talking about markerlights like they boost the same squad. Hopefully not as much as it seems..
Grizzyzz wrote: So yeah, Tau is really good at taking out one major unit a turn. MSU is our bane.
From the cries it seems Tau have markerlights enough to remove cover from every enemy unit and boost every friendly unit to BS5. Could it be possible that not only the complainers have misunderstood something but maybe some Tau players too? As in using non-networked MLs to boost units that couldn't possibly benefit? It wouldn't be the first time someone's made an error and used an army resource wrong.
This came up in another thread too where a few people were talking about markerlights like they boost the same squad. Hopefully not as much as it seems..
Yeah...no, it didn't. That was how yourself and several Tau players interpreted it.
If you take Markerlight or Marker Drones in a squad of Fire Warriors or Stealth Suits, it's not so that you can gain a benefit for that squad. It's so that in the course of them performing their shooting(usually accompanied by them consuming Markerlight counters to begin with to grant Ignores Cover or +BS), you can add more Markerlight counters for the next squad who might fire at that same target--or so that you can Target Lock off of your squad's main target and put a Markerlight Counter onto another unit.
I've ran into a local player who does such a thing, and he basically just attempts to daisy chain Markerlights down the field. His OSC's Stealth Suits all purchase a Markerlight and Target Lock for the Shas'vre and Marker Drones for the unit as well. His goal is to just saturate the board with Counters when possible, and if he only gets 1 to hit? Well, that's a point of BS he didn't have before.
When we're talking about some units(a trio of Ghostkeels in a single squad in an OSC firing as part of a Coordinated Firepower attack combined with a trio of Riptides in a Retaliation Cadre and a unit of Broadsides from that same RC both only firing SMS, for example) not needing that many Markerlight Counters to reach BS 5(Broadsides are +1 if they Deep Striked that turn, otherwise they could just be getting +1 for being part of a CFA, and +1 for consuming a Markerlight Counter) 6(BS3 base, +1 for being Fire Team and having 3 MCs, +1 for being part of a Coordinated Firepower attack, +1 for consuming a Markerlight counter to boost their BS by 1 point) or possibly even as high as 7(Riptide as part of a RC deep-striking +1, +1 for being a Fire Team of 3, +1 for CFA, +1 for consuming a Markerlight) and don't need to consume Markerlight Counters to gain the benefits of Ignores Cover(or in the case of the units firing SMS--they don't even need LOS to participate, and they're Ignoring Cover natively)...those little bits add up to making Markerlights split-firing off not a terrible idea.
If you take Markerlight or Marker Drones in a squad of Fire Warriors or Stealth Suits, it's not so that you can gain a benefit for that squad. It's so that in the course of them performing their shooting(usually accompanied by them consuming Markerlight counters to begin with to grant Ignores Cover or +BS), you can add more Markerlight counters for the next squad who might fire at that same target--or so that you can Target Lock off of your squad's main target and put a Markerlight Counter onto another unit.
I've ran into a local player who does such a thing, and he basically just attempts to daisy chain Markerlights down the field. His OSC's Stealth Suits all purchase a Markerlight and Target Lock for the Shas'vre and Marker Drones for the unit as well. His goal is to just saturate the board with Counters when possible, and if he only gets 1 to hit? Well, that's a point of BS he didn't have before.
When we're talking about some units(a trio of Ghostkeels in a single squad in an OSC firing as part of a Coordinated Firepower attack combined with a trio of Riptides in a Retaliation Cadre and a unit of Broadsides from that same RC both only firing SMS, for example) not needing that many Markerlight Counters to reach BS 5(Broadsides are +1 if they Deep Striked that turn, otherwise they could just be getting +1 for being part of a CFA, and +1 for consuming a Markerlight Counter) 6(BS3 base, +1 for being Fire Team and having 3 MCs, +1 for being part of a Coordinated Firepower attack, +1 for consuming a Markerlight counter to boost their BS by 1 point) or possibly even as high as 7(Riptide as part of a RC deep-striking +1, +1 for being a Fire Team of 3, +1 for CFA, +1 for consuming a Markerlight) and don't need to consume Markerlight Counters to gain the benefits of Ignores Cover(or in the case of the units firing SMS--they don't even need LOS to participate, and they're Ignoring Cover natively)...those little bits add up to making Markerlights split-firing off not a terrible idea.
Your absolutely right its not a terrible idea. It is about balance. And the general interpretation of the view of the tau community is not as you put it "1 marker light hit here and there", its we can boost every single unit as much as we want, and that is simply not the case. A unit OSC as you describe is going over 500 points.. A well kitted retaliation cadre with 3 man crisis teams and only 1 riptide is 1000 points.. toss in 2 more riptides you are now at a 2000 point list (including the OSC) without taking a dedicated source of markerlights outside of many 1 or 2 marker drones in a squad here or there. Again.. not terrible, but not always the best approach. And most certainly not overpowered as everyone says... In your friends lists, he is using the formations for more bonuses then the marker lights themselves... good show! As he should
Tau pay for all their toys. And other lists can pay for theirs. Tau have counters for cover saves, Marines have Grav for MCs, Demons get to hold every objective they touch because they are selfish And then their is chaos.. still crying in the corner.. someday .. someday..
Martel732 wrote: I understand and agree with several Tau points on here. It still remains that it is unfun to deal with something as durable as the Riptide or Stormsurge. Even if my codex could field them, I don't want to use invisible Centurions.
One thing which really annoyed me about the new Tau formations is that basically every formation which has massed crisis suits also has a Riptide. I don't want a goddamn Riptide, GW!
I feel the same. I've got 11 crisis (and one converted from a recon drone as a buff'vre) and a single riptide. needless to say the formation riptide/crisis ratio do not please me.
Though, Ive also have 6 hammerheads in various levels of construction laying around. and I detest skyrays. so my collection as a whole don't quite fit to how the formations are set up.
I really think it's the formations and new MC's that push Tau over the top.
I got into Tau originally because I wanted to play the Alien Federation. I always liked the minor alien races in the 40k universe and wanted them to get more screen time, I thought the Tau army would eventually lead to that. When the vespids released it certainly seemed that way, but it turns out I was very wrong. Looking at competitive lists, it's all suits and MCs, and the Riptide wing is perhaps the biggest offender.
I think the reason most people hate Tau is the same reason most people hate Necrons (which is very different from hating marines and eldar). Necrons and Tau are not an interactive opponent, and I say this as someone who plays all 4 armies.
With my Eldar, unless bike spam, you do see move across the board and do damage, and you do get to remove my models (I just remove a lot more). It looks like I'm playing dynamically, and Eldar are hated for their OP synergies and units rather than playstyle. It's been this way since 3rd IMO (anyone claiming they were weak in 4th is crazy).
With my Marines, its also a very dynamic force. It's many small units zipping around the board getting within 24" to do serious damage. Grav is often hated, and the popularity of the force is extremely hated on, but the playstyle isn't really hated on outside of a few formations (Gladius mainly).
Compare that to Necrons and Tau, which are arguably weaker than the above forces but get nearly the same hate if not more. Necrons move up the field in waves while dealing pretty good ranged damage before entering into a brutal assault. They aren't interactive since they don't zip around or care about your shooting much; they either have the model count and toughness to win or they don't, and it makes the game feel like a dice simulator.
Tau are very similar to this. With the extreme range and firepower, it feels that you are basically moving forward as quick as you can (no point in cover since marker lights are a thing) and hoping enough models reach the tau that you can win in CC. Its basically a dice simulator game, with either the Tau or the opponent getting crushed.
While the Necron game is much worse (in terms of fun, imo) the tau one feels more unfair.
Anyone who thinks a Riptide is equivalent to a Carnie is just wrong. Especially in the Wing formation. Carnies are okay and pump out decent shoots, but the Riptide in the Wing can delete units in 1-2 turns while being incredibly tough and having a crazy range.
I don't play my Tau much anymore. Out of the above 4, I play my Tau the least followed quickly by necrons. Usually my Eldar or SM get requested more for fights, and I spam Warp Spiders so I doubt it's a power issue.
See its funny because I am literally the opposite. I play Tau the most then Eldar.. but most of my group asks me to play my Tau (largely because i am the only active player right now with Tau)
My group tends to play more competitively so maybe most of the issues are left at the door or fixed with ITC FAQ.
Grizzyzz wrote: See its funny because I am literally the opposite. I play Tau the most then Eldar.. but most of my group asks me to play my Tau (largely because i am the only active player right now with Tau)
My group tends to play more competitively so maybe most of the issues are left at the door or fixed with ITC FAQ.
Not sure, my group is pretty much only competitive all the time. Occasionally someone will request a low powered game so we can break out the CSM or Orks, but the vast majority of our games feature Decurions and Centstars. We don't do too much with allies unless it makes sense, but last edition we certainly saw the Baron running around the ulthwe craftworld
Most of us own Eldar and SM, half of us own Crons, and about 1/3 of us own Tau. I never get any requests to face Tau, its usually quite the opposite. I don't get many requests for Crons either though, its mainly eldar and SM that people would rather face. I think my craftworld has done more to lead the eldar race to an early grave than any craftworld in the fluff
I still believe it's due to playstyle. I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that Tau or Necrons are stronger than Eldar or Marines, yet it seems the complaints from the weaker factions eclipse the stronger ones. It could be due to relative popularity though, I imagine more people own SM and Eldar than Tau or Necron.
I still believe it's due to playstyle. I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that Tau or Necrons are stronger than Eldar or Marines, yet it seems the complaints from the weaker factions eclipse the stronger ones. It could be due to relative popularity though, I imagine more people own SM and Eldar than Tau or Necron.
This certainly factors in, and was discussed some in the earlier pages of this thread. I guess people just enjoy when I charge them with my Tau enough to deal with all of the background chatter
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now.. my possible NOVA Open lists that i am putting together.. I won't post because I don't feel like being yelled at for pages and pages
IMO tau and necrons are the most broken armies in the game. Eldar just has a few overtuned units that can be spammed and space marines have a single formation that abuses maelstrom format. Necron and tau quite literally have both - overtuned units with overpowered formations - it takes them to a whole new level of gak. Space marines are actually a very crappy army and virtually non competitive without formations and allies. Eldar are a fantastic army but still have bad matchups and require skill to play. Tau just stand still and blast everything away ignoring half the phases and rules in the game - if they go first they almost automatically win. Necrons ehhh...what can I say - a scarab unit has a better chance of living through a wolfen charge than an imperial knight does...it's disgusting.
@Xenomancers: Can you elaborate as to how a scarab unit has a better chance of living through a wulfen charge than an imperial knight does?
How many scarabs? Because, by my little back of the envelope math, I don't think it's possible for something to be easier for TWC to kill than scarabs (assuming they have the mandatory power fists, and if they don't...well, they've got zero chance of killing the IK, and they will still kill several scarabs...)
Hit on 2's, wound on 2's, instant death, ignore the armor save....
they might get a 5++ res protocol if taken in a canoptek harvest decurion?
Are the new Space Wolf/Daemon formations really so new that people haven't realized just how ridiculously powerful they really are? Having 2 SW players and one Chaos Daemon player in my FLGS, I've personally seen how futile it is to go up against these things. Twice now, I've seen my Decurion tabled (yes, tabled) by turn 3 by these Wulfen and TWC while I'm rolling average. What hope do IG/CSM/Nids/Orks have against these things?
Yes. Necrons and OP. Yes. Tau are OP. Yes. Eldar are OP. It's really frustrating to have to read all these posts about how broken my faction is while Team Jacob goes ignored.
Yes. Necrons and OP. Yes. Tau are OP. Yes. Eldar are OP. It's really frustrating to have to read all these posts about how broken my faction is while Team Jacob goes ignored.
Probably because the main competitive build was nerfed and Wulfen die to S8 AP4. They're not as tough as people make out with shooting.
EnTyme wrote: Are the new Space Wolf/Daemon formations really so new that people haven't realized just how ridiculously powerful they really are? Having 2 SW players and one Chaos Daemon player in my FLGS, I've personally seen how futile it is to go up against these things. Twice now, I've seen my Decurion tabled (yes, tabled) by turn 3 by these Wulfen and TWC while I'm rolling average. What hope do IG/CSM/Nids/Orks have against these things?
Yes. Necrons and OP. Yes. Tau are OP. Yes. Eldar are OP. It's really frustrating to have to read all these posts about how broken my faction is while Team Jacob goes ignored.
Some of the Daemon formations are quite strong and the SW ones are as well. Honestly, if I had to rank them, I would say they lie just outside of the top 4, possibly with SW edging out Necrons as the 4th place choice.
I'm not much a daemon player, got a nasty taste in my mouth from them during my fantasy days, but SW are my favorite loyalist faction, right ahead of UM. I love the new formations, but they don't hold a candle to Eldar, Marines, or Tau. Eldar and Tau especially have a pretty easy time with SW if you take the right formations/units. Honestly, I think their disadvantaged matchup against Eldar and SM could be what keeps them out of the top 4 (As in, SW/Daemons beat Necrons, but Necrons have a better game against Eldar and SM than they do, so the power rankings could be seen in many different ways).
IG, CSM, Nids, and Orks don't have a prayer against any of the top armies. That's not really proof that SW are up there with the Top armies, though I certainly agree that they easily are in the consideration.
I do agree that part of it is the newness. Another part of it is that Daemons have always been a bit of a odd duck in 40k and don't play like any other faction, and the randomness only draws a small pool of players. They have always been the rarest opponent, even when they are a relatively strong dex. SW draws a lot of ire, more ire than UM or GK from many, almost as much as Tau, especially from their 5e days where every CSM player was using their Dex. The TWC only build they had going around for a while turned a lot of players off, myself included.
Loving the new SW dex, though I wish it had fixed my favorite unit (scouts).
Yes. Necrons and OP. Yes. Tau are OP. Yes. Eldar are OP. It's really frustrating to have to read all these posts about how broken my faction is while Team Jacob goes ignored.
Probably because the main competitive build was nerfed and Wulfen die to S8 AP4. They're not as tough as people make out with shooting.
And with the Murderpack formation bonuses, I'm guaranteed to get charged by at least half the SW army on turn one, so better make those Overwatch shots count!
Yes. Necrons and OP. Yes. Tau are OP. Yes. Eldar are OP. It's really frustrating to have to read all these posts about how broken my faction is while Team Jacob goes ignored.
Probably because the main competitive build was nerfed and Wulfen die to S8 AP4. They're not as tough as people make out with shooting.
And with the Murderpack formation bonuses, I'm guaranteed to get charged by at least half the SW army on turn one, so better make those Overwatch shots count!
Your tables sound really small if that's happening with any consistency.
EnTyme wrote: Are the new Space Wolf/Daemon formations really so new that people haven't realized just how ridiculously powerful they really are? Having 2 SW players and one Chaos Daemon player in my FLGS, I've personally seen how futile it is to go up against these things. Twice now, I've seen my Decurion tabled (yes, tabled) by turn 3 by these Wulfen and TWC while I'm rolling average. What hope do IG/CSM/Nids/Orks have against these things?
Yes. Necrons and OP. Yes. Tau are OP. Yes. Eldar are OP. It's really frustrating to have to read all these posts about how broken my faction is while Team Jacob goes ignored.
Some of the Daemon formations are quite strong and the SW ones are as well. Honestly, if I had to rank them, I would say they lie just outside of the top 4, possibly with SW edging out Necrons as the 4th place choice.
I'm not much a daemon player, got a nasty taste in my mouth from them during my fantasy days, but SW are my favorite loyalist faction, right ahead of UM. I love the new formations, but they don't hold a candle to Eldar, Marines, or Tau. Eldar and Tau especially have a pretty easy time with SW if you take the right formations/units. Honestly, I think their disadvantaged matchup against Eldar and SM could be what keeps them out of the top 4 (As in, SW/Daemons beat Necrons, but Necrons have a better game against Eldar and SM than they do, so the power rankings could be seen in many different ways).
IG, CSM, Nids, and Orks don't have a prayer against any of the top armies. That's not really proof that SW are up there with the Top armies, though I certainly agree that they easily are in the consideration.
I do agree that part of it is the newness. Another part of it is that Daemons have always been a bit of a odd duck in 40k and don't play like any other faction, and the randomness only draws a small pool of players. They have always been the rarest opponent, even when they are a relatively strong dex. SW draws a lot of ire, more ire than UM or GK from many, almost as much as Tau, especially from their 5e days where every CSM player was using their Dex. The TWC only build they had going around for a while turned a lot of players off, myself included.
Loving the new SW dex, though I wish it had fixed my favorite unit (scouts).
Let me clarify my complaint. The new formations didn't fix a lot of issues the SW had, but it went a long way in buffing what was already probably the best CC unit in the game (TWC). My complaint isn't that SW are any more broken than the top 4 armies (Eldar, Necrons, SM, and Tau in no particular order), but they are every bit as broken as those armies, yet I still have listen to complainst (daily) about my chosen army (which I honestly chose just because the models were badass. learning they were one of the current top armies was just gravy) while no one is calling out SW for having some pretty damn powerful rules.
And as far as me getting used to removing models, I don't run a Decurion when I'm not playing a top-tier army, so I'm actually pretty used to it. Just not used to getting tabled with absolutely no recourse.
EnTyme wrote: Are the new Space Wolf/Daemon formations really so new that people haven't realized just how ridiculously powerful they really are? Having 2 SW players and one Chaos Daemon player in my FLGS, I've personally seen how futile it is to go up against these things. Twice now, I've seen my Decurion tabled (yes, tabled) by turn 3 by these Wulfen and TWC while I'm rolling average. What hope do IG/CSM/Nids/Orks have against these things?
Yes. Necrons and OP. Yes. Tau are OP. Yes. Eldar are OP. It's really frustrating to have to read all these posts about how broken my faction is while Team Jacob goes ignored.
Some of the Daemon formations are quite strong and the SW ones are as well. Honestly, if I had to rank them, I would say they lie just outside of the top 4, possibly with SW edging out Necrons as the 4th place choice.
I'm not much a daemon player, got a nasty taste in my mouth from them during my fantasy days, but SW are my favorite loyalist faction, right ahead of UM. I love the new formations, but they don't hold a candle to Eldar, Marines, or Tau. Eldar and Tau especially have a pretty easy time with SW if you take the right formations/units. Honestly, I think their disadvantaged matchup against Eldar and SM could be what keeps them out of the top 4 (As in, SW/Daemons beat Necrons, but Necrons have a better game against Eldar and SM than they do, so the power rankings could be seen in many different ways).
IG, CSM, Nids, and Orks don't have a prayer against any of the top armies. That's not really proof that SW are up there with the Top armies, though I certainly agree that they easily are in the consideration.
I do agree that part of it is the newness. Another part of it is that Daemons have always been a bit of a odd duck in 40k and don't play like any other faction, and the randomness only draws a small pool of players. They have always been the rarest opponent, even when they are a relatively strong dex. SW draws a lot of ire, more ire than UM or GK from many, almost as much as Tau, especially from their 5e days where every CSM player was using their Dex. The TWC only build they had going around for a while turned a lot of players off, myself included.
Loving the new SW dex, though I wish it had fixed my favorite unit (scouts).
Let me clarify my complaint. The new formations didn't fix a lot of issues the SW had, but it went a long way in buffing what was already probably the best CC unit in the game (TWC).
I agree that SW have a lot of issues that went unaddressed, many of the units in the dex are awful and they are weak to flyers (which isn't as big a deal as it used to be) and still struggle against MSU style lists.
It did, however, make them a lot more competitive. I disagree that TWC were the best CC unit in the game, I think wraiths were superior and now its about tied, with TWC running a better "star". It's not important, TWC with formations probably edge out wraiths now, and is one of the reasons the Decurion struggles against SW. Wraiths are the big punch of the Decurion style list after all.
My complaint isn't that SW are any more broken than the top 4 armies (Eldar, Necrons, SM, and Tau in no particular order), but they are every bit as broken as those armies, yet I still have listen to complainst (daily) about my chosen army (which I honestly chose just because the models were badass. learning they were one of the current top armies was just gravy) while no one is calling out SW for having some pretty damn powerful rules.
The point I was trying to make earlier is that while the powerful rules does elicit some complaining, it certainly doesn't cause the most of the complaining. Otherwise, you would see Eldar and Marines dominating the complainers, rather than Tau and Necrons. Heck, necrons wouldn't make anyone's radar! Instead, you pretty much see the opposite...Tau are complained about the most, Necrons and Eldar come next (and I think eldar is only due to a few posters that refuse to admit how good they are) and SM the least (possibly due to popularity, most people own or have owned a marine army at some point. CSM whining having stopped helps as well).
I also don't think that SW are as good as the top 4. Maybe necrons, but probably not even that good. They struggle way too much against Tau, Eldar, and Marines. A teleporting grav cent star really puts a TWC on the back foot.
For some reason, people are extremely upset about Tau sitting back without moving much and just firing your army off the board. They don't enjoy the necrons slowly plodding forward while absorbing shot after shot. The games feel like dice simulators against those forces, and I do play those forces.
Against SW, you are actively trying to dodge my TWC while shooting me down. I'm attempting to reach melee without dying. We probably both lose some models (unlike Crons and Tau) and the game feels much more dynamic and interesting than the Tau or Necron game. The only time CC has not been seen as "fun" is when you could get into CC with another squad after winning combat, essentially daisy chaining most armies out of the game (especially horde armies).
Tau have always had this problem. They don't really play 40k, and I say this as someone who owns Tau. They don't move, they don't psyker, they don't assault, they have synergies between units that don't require die rolls or formations (for the most part, though they do have excellent formations), they spam the most MCs (which feels very out of character, imo), they just shoot and buff until you die. Personally, I think GW went completely the wrong way with Tau and it shows in how the player base reacts to the army. The alien federation angle would have played much better, as well as opening up a lot of politics and interesting fluff, but maybe that's wishful thinking.
And as far as me getting used to removing models, I don't run a Decurion when I'm not playing a top-tier army, so I'm actually pretty used to it. Just not used to getting tabled with absolutely no recourse.
You have recourse. I've played Necrons into SW before, and the Flying Bakery still does quite well. You just can't run the standard decurion into it, since the TWC stars will eat the wraiths for lunch.
Xenomancers wrote: IMO tau and necrons are the most broken armies in the game. Eldar just has a few overtuned units that can be spammed and space marines have a single formation that abuses maelstrom format. Necron and tau quite literally have both - overtuned units with overpowered formations - it takes them to a whole new level of gak. Space marines are actually a very crappy army and virtually non competitive without formations and allies. Eldar are a fantastic army but still have bad matchups and require skill to play. Tau just stand still and blast everything away ignoring half the phases and rules in the game - if they go first they almost automatically win. Necrons ehhh...what can I say - a scarab unit has a better chance of living through a wolfen charge than an imperial knight does...it's disgusting.
You are under selling the Eldar, They don't have a few over tuned units, they have the three most overtuned units in the game, which are so abused you rarely get to see their other overtuned units. BTW scarabs are toughness 3, With ID they have next to zero chance of surviving a wolfen charge. Not to take any credibility from your complaints, but I believe you are mistaken on the units you are complaining about, you probably mean a unit of wraiths, not scarabs. The answer is maybe, a 3++ and two wounds will only carry you so far against 40 str 8 attacks, but with hot dice and a formation, and a tomb spider, one or two of them might survive out of a max sized unit of 6. But without power weapons, and only three attacks each, they are unlikely to be able to get more than 1 or 2 in return before the lower cost wulfen finish them off.
Actually, wraiths will carry not because of the defensive profile, but because of whip coils dropping the wulfen initiative and then the wraiths going to town on them.
I'd actually have to run the numbers, but I think the wolves being able to ID them with some of the attacks makes the difference. The wraiths have to chew through everything, but the wolves are likely to ID 2-3 wraiths per turn if they have 2 THs. That's a big wound advantage.
Akiasura wrote: I'd actually have to run the numbers, but I think the wolves being able to ID them with some of the attacks makes the difference. The wraiths have to chew through everything, but the wolves are likely to ID 2-3 wraiths per turn if they have 2 THs. That's a big wound advantage.
the_scotsman wrote: @Xenomancers: Can you elaborate as to how a scarab unit has a better chance of living through a wulfen charge than an imperial knight does?
How many scarabs? Because, by my little back of the envelope math, I don't think it's possible for something to be easier for TWC to kill than scarabs (assuming they have the mandatory power fists, and if they don't...well, they've got zero chance of killing the IK, and they will still kill several scarabs...)
Hit on 2's, wound on 2's, instant death, ignore the armor save....
they might get a 5++ res protocol if taken in a canoptek harvest decurion?
What kind of save does an imperial knight get against wolfen attacks?
This is my point. RP is basically an invo save on every necron model (I chose scarbs because they are the weakest unit in the codex)- except its better because you can stack it with other saves. They get this for cost 0 and decurion makes it even better at cost 0. I can't even bring a casual list against a necron because I wont kill a single model. I'm forced to spam D just to be able to kill things.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wolfen beat wraiths - but they also cost more. Spacewolves are the one bad matchup for crons. Basically the only army they can't just roll over with wraiths. Interestingly Spacewolves are about the only bad matchup for tau too.
Akiasura wrote: Personally, I think GW went completely the wrong way with Tau and it shows in how the player base reacts to the army. The alien federation angle would have played much better, as well as opening up a lot of politics and interesting fluff, but maybe that's wishful thinking.
Yeah, I really don't like how Tau ended up, either. You also hit it on the head with MC spam, that really shouldn't have been a Tau thing. Sad thing is it'll probably never be fixed, either, since with the newest codex GW just double-downed on all the crap everyone hated about the last one.
I don't like that "sit back and shoot" style of play that the codex pigeonholes you into. You can try to play differently, but the way the codex is designed you really have to go out of your way and hamstring yourself to do it, because it's so painfully obvious what you should be taking and how you should be using it.
Xenomancers wrote: IMO tau and necrons are the most broken armies in the game. Eldar just has a few overtuned units that can be spammed and space marines have a single formation that abuses maelstrom format. Necron and tau quite literally have both - overtuned units with overpowered formations - it takes them to a whole new level of gak. Space marines are actually a very crappy army and virtually non competitive without formations and allies. Eldar are a fantastic army but still have bad matchups and require skill to play. Tau just stand still and blast everything away ignoring half the phases and rules in the game - if they go first they almost automatically win. Necrons ehhh...what can I say - a scarab unit has a better chance of living through a wolfen charge than an imperial knight does...it's disgusting.
You are under selling the Eldar, They don't have a few over tuned units, they have the three most overtuned units in the game, which are so abused you rarely get to see their other overtuned units. BTW scarabs are toughness 3, With ID they have next to zero chance of surviving a wolfen charge. Not to take any credibility from your complaints, but I believe you are mistaken on the units you are complaining about, you probably mean a unit of wraiths, not scarabs. The answer is maybe, a 3++ and two wounds will only carry you so far against 40 str 8 attacks, but with hot dice and a formation, and a tomb spider, one or two of them might survive out of a max sized unit of 6. But without power weapons, and only three attacks each, they are unlikely to be able to get more than 1 or 2 in return before the lower cost wulfen finish them off.
I was in a game the other day with a spacewolf player and a necron player. Wraiths and destro lord were losing badly to thunderwolves + lord and libby. Nercron player threw in a unit of 6 scarab to slow down the assault. What actually happend was the scarabs tanked a massive amount of str 10 with their 5+ RP and the unit never got out of combat all game. Those attacks would have easily wrecked an imperial knight...That's where my scarabs tank better than imperial knights came from.
On the Issue of overtunned Eldar units. 1 is a lord of war that can't be spammed (to a degree it can) - and Warp Spiders and Scatter Bikes. Yep - str 6 spam and no one probably does it better but - these units are still very killable. Realistically scat bikes are fairly priced they just have too much access to heavy weapons - wraith knights just cost 75 points to little. Warpspiders - yeah - should be banned how broken they are but take them vs decurion and watch them kill nothing...What does that tell you about decurion?
Akiasura wrote: Personally, I think GW went completely the wrong way with Tau and it shows in how the player base reacts to the army. The alien federation angle would have played much better, as well as opening up a lot of politics and interesting fluff, but maybe that's wishful thinking.
Yeah, I really don't like how Tau ended up, either. You also hit it on the head with MC spam, that really shouldn't have been a Tau thing. Sad thing is it'll probably never be fixed, either, since with the newest codex GW just double-downed on all the crap everyone hated about the last one.
I don't like that "sit back and shoot" style of play that the codex pigeonholes you into. You can try to play differently, but the way the codex is designed you really have to go out of your way and hamstring yourself to do it, because it's so painfully obvious what you should be taking and how you should be using it.
Eh I disagree. I think GW with the new formations gave you a ton of options to get Tau off the back-lines and up in peoples faces, not to mention the Farsight supplement allowing for Crisis suit as troops where you start playing the i am trying to stay in 12-18" range of you but still try to not leave myself in the open. I am not saying you can't still be a gunline, you absolutely can.. but I don't think it is fair to say that is the only way to play them effectively.
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OH wait i forgot JSJ Crisis suits is somehow more rage inducing then Flicker jump warp spiders haha This is not a remark to your quote.. I just think it is funny that people know Warp spiders are extremely good.. spam to win units, and yet you rarely hear any complaints about them.
Akiasura wrote: Personally, I think GW went completely the wrong way with Tau and it shows in how the player base reacts to the army. The alien federation angle would have played much better, as well as opening up a lot of politics and interesting fluff, but maybe that's wishful thinking.
Yeah, I really don't like how Tau ended up, either. You also hit it on the head with MC spam, that really shouldn't have been a Tau thing. Sad thing is it'll probably never be fixed, either, since with the newest codex GW just double-downed on all the crap everyone hated about the last one.
I don't like that "sit back and shoot" style of play that the codex pigeonholes you into. You can try to play differently, but the way the codex is designed you really have to go out of your way and hamstring yourself to do it, because it's so painfully obvious what you should be taking and how you should be using it.
Eh I disagree. I think GW with the new formations gave you a ton of options to get Tau off the back-lines and up in peoples faces, not to mention the Farsight supplement allowing for Crisis suit as troops where you start playing the i am trying to stay in 12-18" range of you but still try to not leave myself in the open. I am not saying you can't still be a gunline, you absolutely can.. but I don't think it is fair to say that is the only way to play them effectively.
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OH wait i forgot JSJ Crisis suits is somehow more rage inducing then Flicker jump warp spiders haha This is not a remark to your quote.. I just think it is funny that people know Warp spiders are extremely good.. spam to win units, and yet you rarely hear any complaints about them.
because despite being overturned to the max - spiders can be killed. People don't complain about crisis suits for the same reason...riptides/decurion/wolf stars/wraiths. You know - stuff that doesn't die when you shoot them.
Akiasura wrote: Personally, I think GW went completely the wrong way with Tau and it shows in how the player base reacts to the army. The alien federation angle would have played much better, as well as opening up a lot of politics and interesting fluff, but maybe that's wishful thinking.
Yeah, I really don't like how Tau ended up, either. You also hit it on the head with MC spam, that really shouldn't have been a Tau thing. Sad thing is it'll probably never be fixed, either, since with the newest codex GW just double-downed on all the crap everyone hated about the last one.
I don't like that "sit back and shoot" style of play that the codex pigeonholes you into. You can try to play differently, but the way the codex is designed you really have to go out of your way and hamstring yourself to do it, because it's so painfully obvious what you should be taking and how you should be using it.
I think that MC spam was the right direction to go. Tau used to be much like the IG with infantry, tanks, and special units to boost shooting. 40k didn't need another infantry line, and I think they tried to push tau away from infantry spam and tanks as it conflicted with IG's identity. Tau are now a mech suit army with infantry support (Instead of an infantry army with tank/transport support) , hell, they even introduced breacher teams in an effort to make Tau more aggressive. They can't make Tau too agile or they'll start becoming like the Eldar, and they can't make Tau too stationary or they'll have another IG. The new codex rewards aggressive play by making markerlights on drones more viable, creating two new aggressive units and by making multiple aggressive formations that reward movement.
Completely anecdotal point coming up, so feel free to disregard.
Spoiler:
Played a 2k points game today, Tau vs Legion Space Marines. Tau player brings 2 full units of Strike Teams in Devilfish, Cadre Fireblade, Pathfinders, Stealth team, IA Riptide, Railgun Broadside and Hammerhead, Fusion Piranha, and Crisis commander and bodyguards, with plasma rifles and fusion blasters.
I'm bringing 2x10 man Tactical squads, a unit of Terminators, a Master of Signals, a Moritat, a full unit of JP Destroyers, a missile heavy support squad and 20 Breachers plus Apothecary and Legatine Axe Praetor. Not a vehicle in sight.
There's about 6 buildings on the table, with four in the midground, creating some good fire lanes and LOS blockers. Big Guns Never Tire mission, and the three objectives are deployed straight across the middle.
The Tau player bunches all his guys in transports and on the left flank. His Pathfinders and Broadside take a building in his backfield, marking up, and his Stealth suits infiltrate into a central building with Obj 1. Crisis suits held in reserve. My force is spread out, with Breachers in the centre, one Tactical squad on the left flank, and the Destroyers and other squad on the right. My missile dudes camp in a backward ruin.
Game lasts five turns. My Destroyers are wiped from the table in one turn by the Riptide and Crisis Teams, my Terminators destroyed the turn they come from Deep Strike. My left flank tacticals are just about killed first turn by disembarking Fire Warriors from their Devilfish. In return, my Breachers charge the Stealth Suits in their ruin, wipe them and a Fire Warrior squad sent in to deal with the marines once they leave combat. They carry on to lock the Riptide in combat on turn 3. The Crisis suits are killed by bolters from the right flank tacticals, and the missile team insta-gib the Broadside turn one.
Final result on the table - Breachers at 18 man strength, locked in combat with a losing Riptide, but surrounded by Tau Devilfish, Piranha, Fire Warriors with Fireblade and Pathfinders. Right flank tacticals at 8 men vs 1HP Hammerhead and full wounded Crisis Commander with full kit.
Score: 5/3 to the Legion.
And it was one of the most enjoyable games I've had. Tau shooting was reduced by my opponent's close range style, and the placement of LOS blockers, and strategy played a huge part in the game, from model positioning and pre-planning movement and fire actions. Honestly, if this was my only experience with Tau, I wouldn't have a clue with what you were on about, and my list was fairly suboptimal anyway.
My main point, if you've gotten this far: how was my opponent unfun? They used Markerlights, Riptides, Fire Warriors with their oh-so-terrible S5 guns, drop Crisis suits, etc. The only bad thing about their loadouts was probably the railguns on the Hammerhead and Broadside.
Its not like they are free, we do pay for them. I think its an interesting mechanic that try and help make Tau their own unique army. If you take markerlights away then the entire book needs to be rewritten because the units would need adjusting. Again i will use Skit and admech as great examples. They get to up their ballistic skill at will. +3/2/1 BS or reroll 1s or +3/2/1 WS.. whatever they want, give everything shrouded this turn, regardless of how many units you remove they can still do most of these things. Where what you have going for you playing against Tau, as you remove markerlights, the overall army starts to slow in its offensive capability.
Do markerlights need some fine tuning? I think they are nearly where they need to be. Cover I will stand by my statement needs something balanced across the board. 2 markerlights to remove cover.. yeah.. maybe that is too good... 1 marker per cover.. i think that is on the opposite extreme. There is a happy middle ground somewhere.
Akiasura wrote: I'd actually have to run the numbers, but I think the wolves being able to ID them with some of the attacks makes the difference. The wraiths have to chew through everything, but the wolves are likely to ID 2-3 wraiths per turn if they have 2 THs. That's a big wound advantage.
Wulfen are S5 base?
We were discussing TWC, which are. And throw out a ton of attacks.
Akiasura wrote: I'd actually have to run the numbers, but I think the wolves being able to ID them with some of the attacks makes the difference. The wraiths have to chew through everything, but the wolves are likely to ID 2-3 wraiths per turn if they have 2 THs. That's a big wound advantage.
Akiasura wrote: I'd actually have to run the numbers, but I think the wolves being able to ID them with some of the attacks makes the difference. The wraiths have to chew through everything, but the wolves are likely to ID 2-3 wraiths per turn if they have 2 THs. That's a big wound advantage.
Do markerlights need some fine tuning? I think they are nearly where they need to be. Cover I will stand by my statement needs something balanced across the board. 2 markerlights to remove cover.. yeah.. maybe that is too good... 1 marker per cover.. i think that is on the opposite extreme. There is a happy middle ground somewhere.
Maybe add a rule stating that markerlights can't Overwatch and can't reduce cover below 6+?
Akiasura wrote: I'd actually have to run the numbers, but I think the wolves being able to ID them with some of the attacks makes the difference. The wraiths have to chew through everything, but the wolves are likely to ID 2-3 wraiths per turn if they have 2 THs. That's a big wound advantage.
Wulfen are S5 base?
Yes
Hmm, yes.
Ridiculous.
I'm still trying to figure out how Wulfen is a "curse".
Do markerlights need some fine tuning? I think they are nearly where they need to be. Cover I will stand by my statement needs something balanced across the board. 2 markerlights to remove cover.. yeah.. maybe that is too good... 1 marker per cover.. i think that is on the opposite extreme. There is a happy middle ground somewhere.
Maybe add a rule stating that markerlights can't Overwatch and can't reduce cover below 6+?
I think marker lights in combined over watch is not that big of an issue. I have very rarely landed a markerlight in overwatch.. but I don't play a gun line so maybe if I had 2-3 units of markers hopping in to support I would..
I have made that suggestion in the past myself. or .. MAYBE.... 1 marker removes 1 cover... but 3 markers removes all cover ?? 3 makerlights is high enough that now you are making choices between simply removing cover or dropping it some and increasing ballistic skill...
I have made that suggestion in the past myself. or .. MAYBE.... 1 marker removes 1 cover... but 3 markers removes all cover ?? 3 makerlights is high enough that now you are making choices between simply removing cover or dropping it some and increasing ballistic skill...
Whoa sir, that would actually make for some tactical decisions! We can't have that for Tau, let alone 40k! Are you mad?!
I have made that suggestion in the past myself. or .. MAYBE.... 1 marker removes 1 cover... but 3 markers removes all cover ?? 3 makerlights is high enough that now you are making choices between simply removing cover or dropping it some and increasing ballistic skill...
Whoa sir, that would actually make for some tactical decisions! We can't have that for Tau, let alone 40k! Are you mad?!
regardless the end result would still be people being mad that Tau get to do it.. =/
I'm still trying to figure out how Wulfen is a "curse".
They're cursed with being too good.
Much easier to shoot down than thunderwolves and not much better than thunderwolves in CC. Take advantage of that. Not that it can really be taken advantage of - shooting down wolfen just means that the thunderwolves get to you unharmed and murder your whole army. Then again - this is the exact way Necrons roll over people it's just 2 squads of wraiths instead.
I have made that suggestion in the past myself. or .. MAYBE.... 1 marker removes 1 cover... but 3 markers removes all cover ?? 3 makerlights is high enough that now you are making choices between simply removing cover or dropping it some and increasing ballistic skill...
Whoa sir, that would actually make for some tactical decisions! We can't have that for Tau, let alone 40k! Are you mad?!
regardless the end result would still be people being mad that Tau get to do it.. =/
I think tau being able to over-watch with their whole army and endless access to interceptor is the chief complaint about tau. It covers all their weaknesses and means they have no really bad matchups.
Do markerlights need some fine tuning? I think they are nearly where they need to be. Cover I will stand by my statement needs something balanced across the board. 2 markerlights to remove cover.. yeah.. maybe that is too good... 1 marker per cover.. i think that is on the opposite extreme. There is a happy middle ground somewhere.
Maybe add a rule stating that markerlights can't Overwatch and can't reduce cover below 6+?
I think marker lights in combined over watch is not that big of an issue. I have very rarely landed a markerlight in overwatch.. but I don't play a gun line so maybe if I had 2-3 units of markers hopping in to support I would..
I have made that suggestion in the past myself. or .. MAYBE.... 1 marker removes 1 cover... but 3 markers removes all cover ?? 3 makerlights is high enough that now you are making choices between simply removing cover or dropping it some and increasing ballistic skill...
A Drone Net formation with all Markerlight units has a pretty decent chance of landing at least a handful of lights on the charging unit, essentially meaning that the remaining units in support fire get a second shooting phase against a single enemy unit. I hate using examples based on luck, but if the Tau player is smart enough to overwatch his Markerlights one unit at a time, a single successful snap fire can quickly snowball into multiple lights on the target.
I was in a game the other day with a spacewolf player and a necron player. Wraiths and destro lord were losing badly to thunderwolves + lord and libby. Nercron player threw in a unit of 6 scarab to slow down the assault. What actually happend was the scarabs tanked a massive amount of str 10 with their 5+ RP and the unit never got out of combat all game. Those attacks would have easily wrecked an imperial knight...That's where my scarabs tank better than imperial knights came from.
On the Issue of overtunned Eldar units. 1 is a lord of war that can't be spammed (to a degree it can) - and Warp Spiders and Scatter Bikes. Yep - str 6 spam and no one probably does it better but - these units are still very killable. Realistically scat bikes are fairly priced they just have too much access to heavy weapons - wraith knights just cost 75 points to little. Warpspiders - yeah - should be banned how broken they are but take them vs decurion and watch them kill nothing...What does that tell you about decurion?
I don't doubt it happened, but like the skinny people celebrating weight loss on Jenny Craig commercials, it should come with a caveat "these results are not typical". Against weapons that could drop an imperial knight, 6 scarabs should have lasted about 8 hits relying solely on the repair protocols to survive. If they weren't armed with powerfist, then you have swarm bases doing exactly what they are supposed to, tarpiting stronger units. Just about any swarm base would have had similar results. Also imperial knights have a glass jaw, especially so in melee without void shields, so tougher than an imperial knight really isn't that serious of an accusation. Tougher than a wraith knight would be a much more convincing argument.
Warp spiders tear it up vs. a necron army, because they wound on twos against everything. Here is the math warp spider shoots a tac marine, wounds on a 4+ marine saves on a 3+, so it takes six shots to get a marine. Shoots at a warrior, wounds on a 2+, saves on a 4+, and repair protocols on a 4+, how many shots does it take... just under 5 to get the warrior. They are literally more useful against Necrons than they are against Marines. This is great example of the cognitive bias that people suffer from when thinking about Necrons ability to tank shots. Somehow a 50/50 repair protocol equates to immortality in the mind of critics. Here is the thing, you don't remember the time your opponent failed 6 of his 8 repair protocols, but you can't forget the time he succeeded 6 out of 8.
If you look at math instead of anecdote, you will get a much more accurate picture of the necrons. They Are tough, but that is their thing, they have some good units, but compared to the monsters that tau, Grey knights, space wolves, and eldar bring to the table each fight, they don't even have a unit in the top 10 overtuned units in the game. I get it though, the way necrons play aggravate people, being tough makes opponents feel like they are less effective against necrons, and a few hot streaks make people feel like shooting at necrons is useless. However when discussing balance you need to take a step outside your own head, and look at the numbers, not your impression of them.
Do markerlights need some fine tuning? I think they are nearly where they need to be. Cover I will stand by my statement needs something balanced across the board. 2 markerlights to remove cover.. yeah.. maybe that is too good... 1 marker per cover.. i think that is on the opposite extreme. There is a happy middle ground somewhere.
Maybe add a rule stating that markerlights can't Overwatch and can't reduce cover below 6+?
I think marker lights in combined over watch is not that big of an issue. I have very rarely landed a markerlight in overwatch.. but I don't play a gun line so maybe if I had 2-3 units of markers hopping in to support I would..
I have made that suggestion in the past myself. or .. MAYBE.... 1 marker removes 1 cover... but 3 markers removes all cover ?? 3 makerlights is high enough that now you are making choices between simply removing cover or dropping it some and increasing ballistic skill...
A Drone Net formation with all Markerlight units has a pretty decent chance of landing at least a handful of lights on the charging unit, essentially meaning that the remaining units in support fire get a second shooting phase against a single enemy unit. I hate using examples based on luck, but if the Tau player is smart enough to overwatch his Markerlights one unit at a time, a single successful snap fire can quickly snowball into multiple lights on the target.
I get it, I realize how it could snowball.. but all those 4 units of marker lights need to be within 6" of the unit being assaulted, which isn't going to be the case most of the time.
I am not saying you are doing this.. but most people argue against Tau with "stars aligned" situations. Yeah if I have 16 markerlights I am probably going to hit 2-3 lights.. so now that 4 units have shot.. am i buffing the single unit that was being assaulted.. maybe +1 on more units nearby? but then how many units do i have clumped into this 6" radii oval on the board ? And this really is only a problem with a gunline Tau army which WAS the norm.. but has become less so for a lot of Tau players ( like myself )
I was in a game the other day with a spacewolf player and a necron player. Wraiths and destro lord were losing badly to thunderwolves + lord and libby. Nercron player threw in a unit of 6 scarab to slow down the assault. What actually happend was the scarabs tanked a massive amount of str 10 with their 5+ RP and the unit never got out of combat all game. Those attacks would have easily wrecked an imperial knight...That's where my scarabs tank better than imperial knights came from.
On the Issue of overtunned Eldar units. 1 is a lord of war that can't be spammed (to a degree it can) - and Warp Spiders and Scatter Bikes. Yep - str 6 spam and no one probably does it better but - these units are still very killable. Realistically scat bikes are fairly priced they just have too much access to heavy weapons - wraith knights just cost 75 points to little. Warpspiders - yeah - should be banned how broken they are but take them vs decurion and watch them kill nothing...What does that tell you about decurion?
I don't doubt it happened, but like the skinny people celebrating weight loss on Jenny Craig commercials, it should come with a caveat "these results are not typical". Against weapons that could drop an imperial knight, 6 scarabs should have lasted about 8 hits relying solely on the repair protocols to survive. If they weren't armed with powerfist, then you have swarm bases doing exactly what they are supposed to, tarpiting stronger units. Just about any swarm base would have had similar results. Also imperial knights have a glass jaw, especially so in melee without void shields, so tougher than an imperial knight really isn't that serious of an accusation. Tougher than a wraith knight would be a much more convincing argument.
Warp spiders tear it up vs. a necron army, because they wound on twos against everything. Here is the math warp spider shoots a tac marine, wounds on a 4+ marine saves on a 3+, so it takes six shots to get a marine. Shoots at a warrior, wounds on a 2+, saves on a 4+, and repair protocols on a 4+, how many shots does it take... just under 5 to get the warrior. They are literally more useful against Necrons than they are against Marines. This is great example of the cognitive bias that people suffer from when thinking about Necrons ability to tank shots. Somehow a 50/50 repair protocol equates to immortality in the mind of critics. Here is the thing, you don't remember the time your opponent failed 6 of his 8 repair protocols, but you can't forget the time he succeeded 6 out of 8.
If you look at math instead of anecdote, you will get a much more accurate picture of the necrons. They Are tough, but that is their thing, they have some good units, but compared to the monsters that tau, Grey knights, space wolves, and eldar bring to the table each fight, they don't even have a unit in the top 10 overtuned units in the game. I get it though, the way necrons play aggravate people, being tough makes opponents feel like they are less effective against necrons, and a few hot streaks make people feel like shooting at necrons is useless. However when discussing balance you need to take a step outside your own head, and look at the numbers, not your impression of them.
Been trying to say this for months now. +1 to you, sir.
Grimgold wrote: Here is the math warp spider shoots a tac marine, wounds on a 4+ marine saves on a 3+,
S6 monofiliament (which is their base gun) will wound tac marines on 2s as well. the only units getting 4+ wounds on monofil are I6 and that will usually not be the majority initiative of a unit (unless your harlequins or a similar super elite dedicated CC unit)
** EDIT ** not trying to sway your point, just rather nip this in the butt before someone uses it against your point.
Yeah warp spiders wound basically everything on 2's. So Necron warriors are about twice as durable as marines vs them when they are in decurion. In 4+ cover vs low AP weapons they are exactly twice as durable. That aint saying much though - marines aren't at all durable. Warriors are just durable enough to not be worth shooting at - at any point in the game though. Not to mention Ghost arcs can bring them back to life.
Limiting your use of MCs is nice but doesn't entirely deal with the Tau's op codex. Plus giant robots is half the point of playing Tau. In pug's I'd make sure your opponent brought the most cut throat list possible. PUGs are always gonna be hard to manage. Secondly try lowering all units Ld by one. Its not crushing and its simple enough to implement.
Red Marine wrote: Plus giant robots is half the point of playing Tau
The sad part is Tau use to not be about gundam size robots but instead about combined arms tactics and unit synergy. Even the old fluff had bits about how Tau thought giant robots (titans) where really impractical.
Red Marine wrote: Plus giant robots is half the point of playing Tau
The sad part is Tau use to not be about gundam size robots but instead about combined arms tactics and unit synergy. Even the old fluff had bits about how Tau thought giant robots (titans) where really impractical.
It is true. Essentially the riptide that GW made easy to spam to the bane of every Tau hater, literally is supposed to be used in the most desperate of measures. Not to mention there are actually very few of them.
Using the retaliation Cadre as an example... If a battle was desperate that's probably the force that would be deployed.
I'm not sure if the fluff ever specifically said the Tau would never, ever make a giant robot, but it strongly hinted that it's not something they were likely to do. Their philosophy was supposed to be that you could overcome any foe with superior firepower and smarter tactics. So when they encounter one of the Imperium's titans, instead of building one of their own and having a giant robot kaiju fight, they would probably use concentrated firepower from units like hammerheads and broadsides, finding weak points and focusing on them. Or do a bombing run with the tigershark AX-1-0, which was hastily developed to help deal specifically with titans. Mantas could probably snipe them with their own railguns before dropping the cadre off on the ground in the first place, if need be.
They even bring this up in the riptide's fluff in the 6th edition codex; they ironically quote Puretide in the description and mention how Puretide basically believed that bigger wasn't better, as explained above...and then they just build it anyway, saying that if Puretide were still around he would totally have seen a need for it. It's so...stupid. In my opinion it would be like if you acknowledged the Black Templar fluff saying they really hate psykers, in the description for a new BT-only combat psyker unit that you came up with because you were really scraping the bottom of the barrel for Space Marine kits and needed something new to sell, and then you try to justify it by claiming the Black Templars just changed their mind in the middle of some random battle where an allied psyker helped make their swords extra choppy, and as such they've developed a newfound respect for them, and even started training psykers of their own.
Maybe it's not quite as directly contradictory in the case with the riptide (or now even larger suits), but it's pretty fething close. Like Vankraken said, the combined arms tactics were a pretty obvious theme, and kind of what the whole army revolved around, as that whole "working together for the Greater Good" thing that's oft repeated in the fluff would lead you to believe. Now it's all about spamming those fething robots and your army might as well not have any infantry or vehicular support at all for all the good it would do you.The riptide and friends were clearlyGW making an excuse to sell large robot kits, whether they "belong" in the army or not, because fething every army started getting them around the same time.
And I doubt the riptide is supposed to be "rare" anymore, I haven't bothered reading much of the new codex but I bet you anything they changed the fluff so that the riptide was put into full production after successful testing. Makes you wonder why they bother wasting resources producing stuff like crisis suits or hammerheads anymore, or even broadsides, since riptides pretty much replace all three of them. And now there's the stormsurge on top of that, like the broadside is to the crisis suit.
Yeah, but the argument is that in order to "play for fun" you can't bring Tau at all, because of point #1. People "deal with it" by effectively banning Tau from the table.
funny that. The sad thing is that if riptides (and the larger supremacy suit\stormsurge) didn't exist, there is fluff justification for fielding freeblade knights alongside our tau.
Sidstyler wrote: Yeah, but the argument is that in order to "play for fun" you can't bring Tau at all, because of point #1. People "deal with it" by effectively banning Tau from the table.
Which is bullgak.
You expect rationality from the people who used to call Tau OP even back in fifth?
Or that think every single thing in the Tau codex is OP? from fire warriors, to crisis suits, and hammerheads? heck I've heard someone call the DEVILFISH overpowered.
Honestly, I can count all the things that are really OP about tau in on hand.
1-Riptide's Ion Accelerator
2-Broadside's HYMP. (broadsides in general are poorly made at the moment. no syncronization between model and rules, terribad inner balance with one amazing gun and one pathetic gun on both the main and secondary slots, etc.)
3-Riptide Wing
4-RAW firestorm
That's it. everything else ranges from "meh" to "nasty, but within reason", with the majority sitting in the "pretty good" zone. not even the RAW hunter contingent is overpowered (if you ever played with or against it, you'd see just how little the rule sharing actually effects things)
Sidstyler wrote: Yeah, but the argument is that in order to "play for fun" you can't bring Tau at all, because of point #1. People "deal with it" by effectively banning Tau from the table.
Which is bullgak.
You expect rationality from the people who used to call Tau OP even back in fifth?
Or that think every single thing in the Tau codex is OP? from fire warriors, to crisis suits, and hammerheads? heck I've heard someone call the DEVILFISH overpowered.
Honestly, I can count all the things that are really OP about tau in on hand.
1-Riptide's Ion Accelerator
2-Broadside's HYMP. (broadsides in general are poorly made at the moment. no syncronization between model and rules, terribad inner balance with one amazing gun and one pathetic gun on both the main and secondary slots, etc.)
3-Riptide Wing
4-RAW firestorm
That's it. everything else ranges from "meh" to "nasty, but within reason", with the majority sitting in the "pretty good" zone. not even the RAW hunter contingent is overpowered (if you ever played with or against it, you'd see just how little the rule sharing actually effects things)
5) EWO being 5 points
6) SMS ignoring Cover and Line Of Sight(one or the other wouldn't be an issue) and being a virtually free choice on all platforms.
7) Markerlights granting Ignores Cover on demand.
He could have also meant the firestream formation. A quick search of google revealed a burst cannon\missile pod equipped crisis suit, which sounded a bit outdated.
Sidstyler wrote: Yeah, but the argument is that in order to "play for fun" you can't bring Tau at all, because of point #1. People "deal with it" by effectively banning Tau from the table.
Which is bullgak.
You expect rationality from the people who used to call Tau OP even back in fifth?
Or that think every single thing in the Tau codex is OP? from fire warriors, to crisis suits, and hammerheads? heck I've heard someone call the DEVILFISH overpowered.
Honestly, I can count all the things that are really OP about tau in on hand.
1-Riptide's Ion Accelerator
2-Broadside's HYMP. (broadsides in general are poorly made at the moment. no syncronization between model and rules, terribad inner balance with one amazing gun and one pathetic gun on both the main and secondary slots, etc.)
3-Riptide Wing
4-RAW firestorm
That's it. everything else ranges from "meh" to "nasty, but within reason", with the majority sitting in the "pretty good" zone. not even the RAW hunter contingent is overpowered (if you ever played with or against it, you'd see just how little the rule sharing actually effects things)
5) EWO being 5 points
6) SMS ignoring Cover and Line Of Sight(one or the other wouldn't be an issue) and being a virtually free choice on all platforms.
7) Markerlights granting Ignores Cover on demand.
5) yep, should cost more. I'm thinking 6 points... Maybe 7.
6) SMS are scary? Umm... Okay.
7) not really 'on demand' though is it? Still gotta hit with them. Are AM orders 'on demand'? Or psychic powers? Or those cheesy Scitarii stuff? Oh wait.... Those are. Maybe we should all complain about those?
Sidstyler wrote: Yeah, but the argument is that in order to "play for fun" you can't bring Tau at all, because of point #1. People "deal with it" by effectively banning Tau from the table.
Which is bullgak.
You expect rationality from the people who used to call Tau OP even back in fifth?
Or that think every single thing in the Tau codex is OP? from fire warriors, to crisis suits, and hammerheads? heck I've heard someone call the DEVILFISH overpowered.
Honestly, I can count all the things that are really OP about tau in on hand. 1-Riptide's Ion Accelerator 2-Broadside's HYMP. (broadsides in general are poorly made at the moment. no syncronization between model and rules, terribad inner balance with one amazing gun and one pathetic gun on both the main and secondary slots, etc.) 3-Riptide Wing 4-RAW firestorm
That's it. everything else ranges from "meh" to "nasty, but within reason", with the majority sitting in the "pretty good" zone. not even the RAW hunter contingent is overpowered (if you ever played with or against it, you'd see just how little the rule sharing actually effects things)
5) EWO being 5 points 6) SMS ignoring Cover and Line Of Sight(one or the other wouldn't be an issue) and being a virtually free choice on all platforms. 7) Markerlights granting Ignores Cover on demand.
5) yep, should cost more. I'm thinking 6 points... Maybe 7. 6) SMS are scary? Umm... Okay. 7) not really 'on demand' though is it? Still gotta hit with them. Are AM orders 'on demand'? Or psychic powers? Or those cheesy Scitarii stuff? Oh wait.... Those are. Maybe we should all complain about those?
To be fair SMS is very scary, and why they aren't a hard counter to warp spider spam I don't know (although I'll be the first to tell you I don't know enough about Tau)
Secondly yes ignore cover on demand is significant, psychic powers are a pile O gak because they are so random and perfect timing requires your psyker to be in the unit and as such has limited utility. AM orders would be scary if the faction itself wasn't a useless Tau downgrade
EWO should cost roughly 35 points on a riptide. The same cost of the drop pod that has been completely invalidated by it's existence. Then it might not be an auto include and more of a choice.
Sidstyler wrote: Yeah, but the argument is that in order to "play for fun" you can't bring Tau at all, because of point #1. People "deal with it" by effectively banning Tau from the table.
Which is bullgak.
You expect rationality from the people who used to call Tau OP even back in fifth?
Or that think every single thing in the Tau codex is OP? from fire warriors, to crisis suits, and hammerheads? heck I've heard someone call the DEVILFISH overpowered.
Honestly, I can count all the things that are really OP about tau in on hand.
1-Riptide's Ion Accelerator
2-Broadside's HYMP. (broadsides in general are poorly made at the moment. no syncronization between model and rules, terribad inner balance with one amazing gun and one pathetic gun on both the main and secondary slots, etc.)
3-Riptide Wing
4-RAW firestorm
That's it. everything else ranges from "meh" to "nasty, but within reason", with the majority sitting in the "pretty good" zone. not even the RAW hunter contingent is overpowered (if you ever played with or against it, you'd see just how little the rule sharing actually effects things)
5) EWO being 5 points
6) SMS ignoring Cover and Line Of Sight(one or the other wouldn't be an issue) and being a virtually free choice on all platforms.
7) Markerlights granting Ignores Cover on demand.
5) yep, should cost more. I'm thinking 6 points... Maybe 7.
6) SMS are scary? Umm... Okay.
7) not really 'on demand' though is it? Still gotta hit with them. Are AM orders 'on demand'? Or psychic powers? Or those cheesy Scitarii stuff? Oh wait.... Those are. Maybe we should all complain about those?
To be fair SMS is very scary, and why they aren't a hard counter to warp spider spam I don't know (although I'll be the first to tell you I don't know enough about Tau)
Secondly yes ignore cover on demand is significant, psychic powers are a pile O gak because they are so random and perfect timing requires your psyker to be in the unit and as such has limited utility.
AM orders would be scary if the faction itself wasn't a useless Tau downgrade
The SMS is 4 S5 Ap5 shots... And only available as Broadside units' side arm, Riptides and Tau tanks. Whist not bad they aren't exactly good either (at least in my opinion).
I know it is, but it isn't exactly 'on demand' as you have to hit with them and keep them alive in the first place. Whilst easier and more reliable than psykers, they still aren't automatic.
AM have some awesome FW stuff though, like those earthshaker cannon artillery pieces. So ignores cover on them is pretty powerful.
Stuff like SM chapter tactics and the Skitarii things are 'on demand'; things like marker lights and orders are [b]almost[/] on demand
Xenomancers wrote: EWO should cost roughly 35 points on a riptide. The same cost of the drop pod that has been completely invalidated by it's existence. Then it might not be an auto include and more of a choice.
Xenomancers wrote: EWO should cost roughly 35 points on a riptide. The same cost of the drop pod that has been completely invalidated by it's existence. Then it might not be an auto include and more of a choice.
We could also reverse that; a drop pod should cost 110 points because of the 10 man Pathfinder unit it just invalidated.
Or 250 points because of the Leman Russ your grav cents just destroyed
Xenomancers wrote: EWO should cost roughly 35 points on a riptide. The same cost of the drop pod that has been completely invalidated by it's existence. Then it might not be an auto include and more of a choice.
We could also reverse that; a drop pod should cost 110 points because of the 10 man Pathfinder unit it just invalidated.
Or 250 points because of the Leman Russ your grav cents just destroyed
Don't all these units have their own turns they get to shoot in? Are they shooting in Their turn and yoours? Nope.
Sidstyler wrote: Yeah, but the argument is that in order to "play for fun" you can't bring Tau at all, because of point #1. People "deal with it" by effectively banning Tau from the table.
Which is bullgak.
You expect rationality from the people who used to call Tau OP even back in fifth?
Or that think every single thing in the Tau codex is OP? from fire warriors, to crisis suits, and hammerheads? heck I've heard someone call the DEVILFISH overpowered.
Honestly, I can count all the things that are really OP about tau in on hand.
1-Riptide's Ion Accelerator
2-Broadside's HYMP. (broadsides in general are poorly made at the moment. no syncronization between model and rules, terribad inner balance with one amazing gun and one pathetic gun on both the main and secondary slots, etc.)
3-Riptide Wing
4-RAW firestorm
That's it. everything else ranges from "meh" to "nasty, but within reason", with the majority sitting in the "pretty good" zone. not even the RAW hunter contingent is overpowered (if you ever played with or against it, you'd see just how little the rule sharing actually effects things)
5) EWO being 5 points
6) SMS ignoring Cover and Line Of Sight(one or the other wouldn't be an issue) and being a virtually free choice on all platforms.
7) Markerlights granting Ignores Cover on demand.
5) yep, should cost more. I'm thinking 6 points... Maybe 7.
6) SMS are scary? Umm... Okay.
7) not really 'on demand' though is it? Still gotta hit with them. Are AM orders 'on demand'? Or psychic powers? Or those cheesy Scitarii stuff? Oh wait.... Those are. Maybe we should all complain about those?
To be fair SMS is very scary, and why they aren't a hard counter to warp spider spam I don't know (although I'll be the first to tell you I don't know enough about Tau)
Secondly yes ignore cover on demand is significant, psychic powers are a pile O gak because they are so random and perfect timing requires your psyker to be in the unit and as such has limited utility.
AM orders would be scary if the faction itself wasn't a useless Tau downgrade
The SMS is 4 S5 Ap5 shots... And only available as Broadside units' side arm, Riptides and Tau tanks. Whist not bad they aren't exactly good either (at least in my opinion).
I know it is, but it isn't exactly 'on demand' as you have to hit with them and keep them alive in the first place. Whilst easier and more reliable than psykers, they still aren't automatic.
AM have some awesome FW stuff though, like those earthshaker cannon artillery pieces. So ignores cover on them is pretty powerful.
Stuff like SM chapter tactics and the Skitarii things are 'on demand'; things like marker lights and orders are [b]almost[/] on demand
Forgive me if I'm wrong (again I should really buy the Tau codex if only for research purposes) but can't you get SMS on the Stormsurge platforms? In any case S5 vs T3 fragile units (such as WarpSiders) seems like a strong counter considering it invalidates the flickerjump and on plaforms like the ones you listed, you're not really going out of your way to get them.
In any case don't the drone nets increase the BS of markerlights, and drones with relentless means very little snap shooting would surely make them more reliable, and the fact that any Tau unit may utilize those markerlights is...unfortunate.
As for AM forgeworld, again not that frightening. I can always deepstrike onto those artillery platforms and kill them no problem or simply out shoot them with anything thats not Orks, Nids or Chaos... In comparison Tau do everything better than them
Xenomancers wrote: EWO should cost roughly 35 points on a riptide. The same cost of the drop pod that has been completely invalidated by it's existence. Then it might not be an auto include and more of a choice.
We could also reverse that; a drop pod should cost 110 points because of the 10 man Pathfinder unit it just invalidated.
Or 250 points because of the Leman Russ your grav cents just destroyed
Don't all these units have their own turns they get to shoot in? Are they shooting in Their turn and yoours? Nope.
If you shoot with interceptor, you don't get to shoot the next turn.
And no, they don't, not if you drop a pod in T1 and eradicate them from existence.
Until the absolute bonkers bullcrap that is practically army wide, near zero risk deep strike for 35 points is addressed, no SM player has a right to whinge about an undercosted rules upgrade.
Drop pods have almost no counters. EWO is one of them. Deal with it.
Sidstyler wrote: Yeah, but the argument is that in order to "play for fun" you can't bring Tau at all, because of point #1. People "deal with it" by effectively banning Tau from the table.
Which is bullgak.
You expect rationality from the people who used to call Tau OP even back in fifth?
Or that think every single thing in the Tau codex is OP? from fire warriors, to crisis suits, and hammerheads? heck I've heard someone call the DEVILFISH overpowered.
Honestly, I can count all the things that are really OP about tau in on hand.
1-Riptide's Ion Accelerator
2-Broadside's HYMP. (broadsides in general are poorly made at the moment. no syncronization between model and rules, terribad inner balance with one amazing gun and one pathetic gun on both the main and secondary slots, etc.)
3-Riptide Wing
4-RAW firestorm
That's it. everything else ranges from "meh" to "nasty, but within reason", with the majority sitting in the "pretty good" zone. not even the RAW hunter contingent is overpowered (if you ever played with or against it, you'd see just how little the rule sharing actually effects things)
5) EWO being 5 points
6) SMS ignoring Cover and Line Of Sight(one or the other wouldn't be an issue) and being a virtually free choice on all platforms.
7) Markerlights granting Ignores Cover on demand.
5) yep, should cost more. I'm thinking 6 points... Maybe 7.
Try 10-15.
6) SMS are scary? Umm... Okay.
They're a weapon which ignores cover and line of sight rules. That can be given Interceptor.
You're giving a perfect example of how Tau players not understanding how their own rules work or how their army has obscene amounts of synergy cause most of the issues that others have with Tau players.
7) not really 'on demand' though is it? Still gotta hit with them.
So? It's not like there aren't formations which boost up Markerlight hits or bonuses allowing them to be shared or formations which boost up the Ballistic Skill of a Markerlight platform.
Oh wait. There are.
Ranged Support Cadre makes it so each Markerlight Counter is doubled for the Broadsides in the formation, Coordinated Firepower allows for participating units to share Markerlight benefits, and the Drone Net boosts the Ballistic Skill of [b]all Drones[/b by 1](including Drones that are not part of the Formation) as long as at least two units from the Formation are on the battlefield.
Oh yeah, and the Drone Net gives them Interceptor, Jink, Outflank, Precision Shots, and Split Fire. If someone seriously wanted to--you could run a Drone-Net of nothing but Marker and Shield Drones, firing Markerlights as Interceptor weapons and Split Firing them off for Markerlight saturation during an Interceptor shooting spree.
Plus there's the Air Superiority Cadre, which gives you D3 Markerlight counters that can be placed on any enemy units on the battlefield as long as one model from the formation is on the battlefield.
Are AM orders 'on demand'?
I always love this comparison.
There's a difference between passing a Leadership test that can lock you out of Orders for the remainder of the turn and firing a laser pointer. And let's not forget that specific Orders are tied to specific units--i.e. Ignores Cover is ONLY available on the HQ choice for Guard. Don't pretend it can be spammed like Markerlights can.
Or psychic powers?
Do you want a Markerlight Perils Table? Maybe if you miss, you have to take a Blind test?
Or those cheesy Skitarii stuff?
For every point of Ballistic or Weapon Skill beyond plus 1, the gain is balanced out by minus 1 to the other stat. And it's one use per game barring a specific formation mandating 3 of every unit type and the only genuine choices you have are loadouts for the infantry and Onager plus do you want Ironstriders or Dragoons.
Let's make it so that Ignores Cover works both ways, a unit firing Markerlights loses any Cover benefits they have and for every point of Ballistic Skill beyond 1 that a unit utilizing Markerlight Counters gains, they lose a point of WS or Initiative.
Balance, yo.
Oh wait.... Those are. Maybe we should all complain about those?
Forgive me if I'm wrong (again I should really buy the Tau codex if only for research purposes) but can't you get SMS on the Stormsurge platforms?
Ok so ..
fire warriors can bring a turret for 15? pts that has sms as an option.. they can only use it if they dont move.. and the entire unit including the turrent is firing at the target *for the most part.. i realize the sarge could potentially have splitfire.. but your again buying a ton of upgrades to do this..
Broadsides come with them for free but its weird as some targets you want to target with SMS the HYMP are overkilling or can't fire at because LOS, and the other way.. SMS doesnt hurt the target the HYMP can.. still a good offensive unit though.
Devilfish and Hammerheads and skyrays may upgrade their attached drones to SMS for 10 pts. Now.. on a hammerhead this means your railgun/ion is shooting the same thing as the SMS . Its good on a skyray because you can launch all your seekers and then just use the SMS. devilfish is very viable for this upgrade as that would be their only weapon.
Stormsurge has one.. but is that really what the opponent would be worried about with the stormsurge? probably not.. and that platform is over 400 points with a shield
In any case S5 vs T3 fragile units (such as WarpSiders) seems like a strong counter considering it invalidates the flickerjump and on plaforms like the ones you listed, you're not really going out of your way to get them.
It doesn't invalidate them. They would still be able to flicker jump, potentially out of range.. but yes it is a very good counter as they can't jump out of LOS, and not needing LOS means Tau can use that to stop any deepstrike in their bubble and force a flicker choice.
In any case don't the drone nets increase the BS of markerlights, and drones with relentless means very little snap shooting would surely make them more reliable, and the fact that any Tau unit may utilize those markerlights is...unfortunate.
Drone net is a minimum of 224 points.. just tossing in information for the discussion here. 4 units required of 4 marker drones (minimum) if you choose that. They are only +1 BS in "your shooting phase" so any intercepting markers will be at BS2.. so your looking at maybe 2-3 marker hits maybe 4-5 if you cascade them on a single target (note.. single target)
Automatically Appended Next Post: OH and obviously riptides have them available.. but anyway
Xenomancers wrote: EWO should cost roughly 35 points on a riptide. The same cost of the drop pod that has been completely invalidated by it's existence. Then it might not be an auto include and more of a choice.
We could also reverse that; a drop pod should cost 110 points because of the 10 man Pathfinder unit it just invalidated.
Or 250 points because of the Leman Russ your grav cents just destroyed
Don't all these units have their own turns they get to shoot in? Are they shooting in Their turn and yoours? Nope.
If you shoot with interceptor, you don't get to shoot the next turn.
Warhammer 40,000: The Rules wrote:
Interceptor
At the end of the enemy Movement Phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from Reserve within its range and line of sight. If this rule is used, the weapon cannot be fired in the next turn, but the firing model can shoot a different weapon if it has one.
Unless there's some FAQ I missed, EWO granting Interceptor to ALL of your weapons(not just giving the model Interceptor--it grants each of their weapons Interceptor) means that you do not have to fire all of your weapons as Interceptor.
So yeah, if you shoot with Interceptor you do still get to shoot the next turn. Just not with the guns you fired.
And no, they don't, not if you drop a pod in T1 and eradicate them from existence.
So you drop a pod in T1 and get your alpha strike EWO'd.
Smooth move, Iceman?
Until the absolute bonkers bullcrap that is practically army wide, near zero risk deep strike for 35 points is addressed, no SM player has a right to whinge about an undercosted rules upgrade.
Drop pods have almost no counters. EWO is one of them. Deal with it.
Until EWO forces you to fire at the Drop Pod itself rather than Space Marines, Tau players have no right to whinge about an undercosted rules upgrade.
I find that the "threat" of interceptor is often worse then what the actual interceptor does.. often times it makes my opponents play slightly less aggressive and I don't intercept them anyway because lack of BS.
A riptide scatters a blast 4" on average, with out markerlights.. and has a 1/6 chance to not fire anyway.. so generally speaking unless I have BS5 or more its averagely bad to fire a large blast off a riptide, if you intend to hit your target. If you want to scatter then its great lol
Forgive me if I'm wrong (again I should really buy the Tau codex if only for research purposes) but can't you get SMS on the Stormsurge platforms?
Ok so ..
fire warriors can bring a turret for 15? pts that has sms as an option.. they can only use it if they dont move.. and the entire unit including the turrent is firing at the target *for the most part.. i realize the sarge could potentially have splitfire.. but your again buying a ton of upgrades to do this..
Broadsides come with them for free but its weird as some targets you want to target with SMS the HYMP are overkilling or can't fire at because LOS, and the other way.. SMS doesnt hurt the target the HYMP can.. still a good offensive unit though.
Devilfish and Hammerheads and skyrays may upgrade their attached drones to SMS for 10 pts. Now.. on a hammerhead this means your railgun/ion is shooting the same thing as the SMS . Its good on a skyray because you can launch all your seekers and then just use the SMS. devilfish is very viable for this upgrade as that would be their only weapon.
Stormsurge has one.. but is that really what the opponent would be worried about with the stormsurge? probably not.. and that platform is over 400 points with a shield
Way to miss his point. It's far more widespread than "Broadsides, Riptides, and Tau vehicles" isn't it?
So yeah. Fire Warriors get them "if they stay still" as a 15 point upgrade. If they move--they have to wait a turn before the turret comes back.
But guess what? The turret comes back. Any other army with a squad based HW, that 15 point upgrade is gone if it goes away. Enemy models also cannot attack or affect a DS8 Tactical Support Turret.
Broadsides come with them for free, Riptides get them base, Stormsurges cannot exchange them for anything else, and any non-Devilfish vehicles are paying 0 points for them. A Devilfish pays 10 points for them.
Ten points for Ignores Cover S5 AP5 Heavy 4 with the ability to ignore Line of Sight restrictions.
In any case S5 vs T3 fragile units (such as WarpSiders) seems like a strong counter considering it invalidates the flickerjump and on plaforms like the ones you listed, you're not really going out of your way to get them.
It doesn't invalidate them. They would still be able to flicker jump, potentially out of range.. but yes it is a very good counter as they can't jump out of LOS, and not needing LOS means Tau can use that to stop any deepstrike in their bubble and force a flicker choice.
Yes, they can jump out of range--but they can't jump out of LOS.
How do you not understand that is a huge advantage? It means there is a 30" bubble of "NOPE!" around any units equipped with SMS and EWOs. You can't Deep Strike or Outflank in without potentially taking casualties before you ever get to use the unit.
In any case don't the drone nets increase the BS of markerlights, and drones with relentless means very little snap shooting would surely make them more reliable, and the fact that any Tau unit may utilize those markerlights is...unfortunate.
Drone net is a minimum of 224 points.. just tossing in information for the discussion here. 4 units required of 4 marker drones (minimum) if you choose that.
How many points is it to upgrade to Marker or Shield Drones?
Oh right. Free.
They are only +1 BS in "your shooting phase" so any intercepting markers will be at BS2.. so your looking at maybe 2-3 marker hits maybe 4-5 if you cascade them on a single target (note.. single target)
Okay fine, so they're intercepting at BS2. Oh noes!
That's still a pretty hefty advantage when taking into consideration that the heavy hitters in your army(Broadsides, Crisis Suits, Riptides, Stormsurges, Ghostkeels) can all take Early Warning Override at its amazingly steep points cost of 5 points and benefit from Markerlights during the enemy's turn.
Forgive me if I'm wrong (again I should really buy the Tau codex if only for research purposes) but can't you get SMS on the Stormsurge platforms?
Ok so ..
fire warriors can bring a turret for 15? pts that has sms as an option.. they can only use it if they dont move.. and the entire unit including the turrent is firing at the target *for the most part.. i realize the sarge could potentially have splitfire.. but your again buying a ton of upgrades to do this..
Broadsides come with them for free but its weird as some targets you want to target with SMS the HYMP are overkilling or can't fire at because LOS, and the other way.. SMS doesnt hurt the target the HYMP can.. still a good offensive unit though.
Devilfish and Hammerheads and skyrays may upgrade their attached drones to SMS for 10 pts. Now.. on a hammerhead this means your railgun/ion is shooting the same thing as the SMS . Its good on a skyray because you can launch all your seekers and then just use the SMS. devilfish is very viable for this upgrade as that would be their only weapon.
Stormsurge has one.. but is that really what the opponent would be worried about with the stormsurge? probably not.. and that platform is over 400 points with a shield
In any case S5 vs T3 fragile units (such as WarpSiders) seems like a strong counter considering it invalidates the flickerjump and on plaforms like the ones you listed, you're not really going out of your way to get them.
It doesn't invalidate them. They would still be able to flicker jump, potentially out of range.. but yes it is a very good counter as they can't jump out of LOS, and not needing LOS means Tau can use that to stop any deepstrike in their bubble and force a flicker choice.
In any case don't the drone nets increase the BS of markerlights, and drones with relentless means very little snap shooting would surely make them more reliable, and the fact that any Tau unit may utilize those markerlights is...unfortunate.
Drone net is a minimum of 224 points.. just tossing in information for the discussion here. 4 units required of 4 marker drones (minimum) if you choose that. They are only +1 BS in "your shooting phase" so any intercepting markers will be at BS2.. so your looking at maybe 2-3 marker hits maybe 4-5 if you cascade them on a single target (note.. single target)
Automatically Appended Next Post: OH and obviously riptides have them available.. but anyway
Fair enough, wasn't jumping on the 'Tau please nerf bandwagon' with the SMS thing, just figured they would be one of those peices of wargear that would really hurt some of the more boring Eldar lists out there.
To get back to the point of the thread and my misgivings with Markerlights, the mass utility and the ability to strip cover and in effect invalidate entire armies really does frustrate me. We can debate ceaselessly about whether the markerlight functionality is overpowered or not, from a gameplay perspective its just boring to play against as I imagine it is to play.
I'd support the following:
-Increasing the BS of infantry and direct fire weapons,
-expending 3-4 tokens to make blast weapons have the shred special rule
-rail guns the armourbane/fleshbane special rules
Or just different benefits for different units using the markerlights would have been fun and interesting.
Or instead of relying on markerlights.. more special interactions when two or more allied units do something to promote the feeling of interlocking tactics would have been fun and would offer distinct bonuses dependent on if you were playing in a Mont'ka or Kauyon fashion... it could have been so much more fun...
Instead Tau treat markerlights as an all encompassing resource that binds the army together to provide the arguably most powerful... and most bland and lifeless abilities available.
Forgive me if I'm wrong (again I should really buy the Tau codex if only for research purposes) but can't you get SMS on the Stormsurge platforms?
Ok so ..
fire warriors can bring a turret for 15? pts that has sms as an option.. they can only use it if they dont move.. and the entire unit including the turrent is firing at the target *for the most part.. i realize the sarge could potentially have splitfire.. but your again buying a ton of upgrades to do this..
Broadsides come with them for free but its weird as some targets you want to target with SMS the HYMP are overkilling or can't fire at because LOS, and the other way.. SMS doesnt hurt the target the HYMP can.. still a good offensive unit though.
Devilfish and Hammerheads and skyrays may upgrade their attached drones to SMS for 10 pts. Now.. on a hammerhead this means your railgun/ion is shooting the same thing as the SMS . Its good on a skyray because you can launch all your seekers and then just use the SMS. devilfish is very viable for this upgrade as that would be their only weapon.
Stormsurge has one.. but is that really what the opponent would be worried about with the stormsurge? probably not.. and that platform is over 400 points with a shield
Way to miss his point. It's far more widespread than "Broadsides, Riptides, and Tau vehicles" isn't it?
I didn't miss his point.. people were discussing units at large.. I felt like it would benefit the discussion to list out the available platforms. If anything I backed his point that we have multiple platforms to run SMS.
Kanluwen wrote:
So yeah. Fire Warriors get them "if they stay still" as a 15 point upgrade. If they move--they have to wait a turn before the turret comes back.
But guess what? The turret comes back. Any other army with a squad based HW, that 15 point upgrade is gone if it goes away. Enemy models also cannot attack or affect a DS8 Tactical Support Turret.
This is true, but if your shooting at firewarriors.. more then likely that squad will either be wiped out by shooting.. or they will fail their LD7 and run away anyway.. so I think the lack of interaction isn't a huge power change. My opinion though.
Kanluwen wrote:
grizzyzz wrote:
It doesn't invalidate them. They would still be able to flicker jump, potentially out of range.. but yes it is a very good counter as they can't jump out of LOS, and not needing LOS means Tau can use that to stop any deepstrike in their bubble and force a flicker choice.
Yes, they can jump out of range--but they can't jump out of LOS.
How do you not understand that is a huge advantage? It means there is a 30" bubble of "NOPE!" around any units equipped with SMS and EWOs. You can't Deep Strike or Outflank in without potentially taking casualties before you ever get to use the unit.
How did you not understand my point? (check bold) .. I just wanted to clarify the difference in the use of "invalidate" .. which a casual reader may interpret as "a warp spider is not able to flicker jump". Further, I agreed that SMS for Tau is their counter to warp spider deep strike spam.
Although the caveat to all of this being.. If you play ITC, then SMS cannot intercept out of LOS.. you can only intercept from what the model can see.. so there you go. your prayers have been answered
Kanluwen wrote:
How many points is it to upgrade to Marker or Shield Drones?
Oh right. Free.
I am not sure exactly your point here? Also there is no free upgrade. A drone squad can be an combination of marker, gun, or shield drones @14pts per drone. Within a unit that has the option to purchase (not all can), these are taken at 12pts per model.
Torus wrote:
Fair enough, wasn't jumping on the 'Tau please nerf bandwagon' with the SMS thing, just figured they would be one of those peices of wargear that would really hurt some of the more boring Eldar lists out there.
It was not my intention to call you or anyone else out. You asked a question (maybe it was sarcastic).. so I merely wanted to list the units that can take sms to aid the discussion. Otherwise I agreed with you on SMS is Tau's counter to mass warp spider spam.
Torus wrote:
To get back to the point of the thread and my misgivings with Markerlights, the mass utility and the ability to strip cover and in effect invalidate entire armies really does frustrate me. We can debate ceaselessly about whether the markerlight functionality is overpowered or not, from a gameplay perspective its just boring to play against as I imagine it is to play.
To each their own I suppose. Again this doesn't even apply to me personally, there are many lists of mine that I don't even bring markerlights (i just maximize the formation bonuses.. .far more reliable)
Forgive me if I'm wrong (again I should really buy the Tau codex if only for research purposes) but can't you get SMS on the Stormsurge platforms?
Ok so ..
fire warriors can bring a turret for 15? pts that has sms as an option.. they can only use it if they dont move.. and the entire unit including the turrent is firing at the target *for the most part.. i realize the sarge could potentially have splitfire.. but your again buying a ton of upgrades to do this..
Broadsides come with them for free but its weird as some targets you want to target with SMS the HYMP are overkilling or can't fire at because LOS, and the other way.. SMS doesnt hurt the target the HYMP can.. still a good offensive unit though.
Devilfish and Hammerheads and skyrays may upgrade their attached drones to SMS for 10 pts. Now.. on a hammerhead this means your railgun/ion is shooting the same thing as the SMS . Its good on a skyray because you can launch all your seekers and then just use the SMS. devilfish is very viable for this upgrade as that would be their only weapon.
Stormsurge has one.. but is that really what the opponent would be worried about with the stormsurge? probably not.. and that platform is over 400 points with a shield
Way to miss his point. It's far more widespread than "Broadsides, Riptides, and Tau vehicles" isn't it?
I didn't miss his point.. people were discussing units at large.. I felt like it would benefit the discussion to list out the available platforms. If anything I backed his point that we have multiple platforms to run SMS.
No, what you were doing is choosing to act as though these individual units are somehow lessened by having SMS. You predicated everything upon how you "need" to buy upgrades or other silly points.
Kanluwen wrote:
So yeah. Fire Warriors get them "if they stay still" as a 15 point upgrade. If they move--they have to wait a turn before the turret comes back.
But guess what? The turret comes back. Any other army with a squad based HW, that 15 point upgrade is gone if it goes away. Enemy models also cannot attack or affect a DS8 Tactical Support Turret.
This is true, but if your shooting at firewarriors.. more then likely that squad will either be wiped out by shooting.. or they will fail their LD7 and run away anyway.. so I think the lack of interaction isn't a huge power change. My opinion though.
Cover is a thing. And it's not like there aren't cover modifiers in some Tau formations, amirite?
And hell--it's not like Tau didn't just get their own unique set of fortifications that can cause vehicles to glance themselves to death with weapons that would otherwise never be able to glance, right?
Kanluwen wrote:
grizzyzz wrote:
It doesn't invalidate them. They would still be able to flicker jump, potentially out of range.. but yes it is a very good counter as they can't jump out of LOS, and not needing LOS means Tau can use that to stop any deepstrike in their bubble and force a flicker choice.
Yes, they can jump out of range--but they can't jump out of LOS.
How do you not understand that is a huge advantage? It means there is a 30" bubble of "NOPE!" around any units equipped with SMS and EWOs. You can't Deep Strike or Outflank in without potentially taking casualties before you ever get to use the unit.
How did you not understand my point? (check bold) .. I just wanted to clarify the difference in the use of "invalidate" .. which a casual reader may interpret as "a warp spider is not able to flicker jump". Further, I agreed that SMS for Tau is their counter to warp spider deep strike spam.
I understood your point. However I also have argued this point with you several instances, and most of the time your reply is "Well it's S5 AP5".
Who gives a crap if it's S5 AP5? It's S5 AP5 Heavy 4 Ignores Cover Homing. You continually act as though the lack of AP and the BS needed to hit with Tau units is a hindrance while ignoring the fact that it is an exclusively twin-linked system with a relatively high ROF, a large range, and almost exclusively(barring Tau vehicles and the new Support Drone) on platforms with easy access to Interceptor.
That's why I keep trying to press home that SMS are a HUGE advantage, with or without Markerlights.
Although the caveat to all of this being.. If you play ITC, then SMS cannot intercept out of LOS.. you can only intercept from what the model can see.. so there you go. your prayers have been answered
That's nice. Unfortunately, not everyone plays ITC.
Kanluwen wrote:
How many points is it to upgrade to Marker or Shield Drones?
Oh right. Free.
I am not sure exactly your point here? Also there is no free upgrade. A drone squad can be an combination of marker, gun, or shield drones @14pts per drone. Within a unit that has the option to purchase (not all can), these are taken at 12pts per model.
Unless you and I have different Tau Empire codices, that is not the case. Page 101 of the 2012 Tau Empire codex specifically states that a Drone Squadron may upgrade any Gun Drone to Marker Drone or Shield Drone for free.
The purchased Drones for Fire Caste stuff are 12 points. Those costs do NOT apply to the Drone Squadrons.
How can people even complain about EWO is baffling to me.
What does it do? hit people that deep strike/reserve. EWO does nothing if you actually play straight and deploy on the field.
So, basically, in order for it do even do ANYTHING, you need to first try to pull off your own "I get to shoot first and there is nothing you can do about it" move.
Oh my, how despicable of the tau to not allow up to grantee we will always get the first shot.
As for the SMS, seriusly? THATS a problem? a S5AP5 gun that ignores cover and LOS? being AP5 the fact it ignores cover is irrelevant against anything stronger than guardsmen. and the fact it ignores LOS? so does a whirlwind. and a TFC. and a basilisk, and a medusa, and thudd guns, and artillery carriages, and mortars, heavy mortars, night spinners, lobbas, impaler cannon, ironstork missile pod and every godamn barrage gun in the game. not everyone has one, but most does, either personally or through battle brothers. actually, the only ones who don't have any LOS ignoring guns even with BB are necron.
Most of them are never even taken! even though some of them are far FAR stronger than the SMS. they are simply actual units and not tac-on to things you actually want.
The SMS itself wouldn't have been taken on most units if there was any alternative, but there simply isn't. the fact it ignores LOS is almost never relevant, as it would mean the MAIN GUN isn't shooting if you needed to use that trick.
Broadside can pay to replace it with plasma. and the plasma don't match the range of the main guns at all.
Riptide can switch to plasma or fusion for free, but these again don't quite match in ranges, the plasma is hardly required due to the IA being too good against heavy armor to begin with (the VERY FIRST problem in tau I said), and the fusion being better suited elsewhere. had a riptide been able to take none at all for being 20 points cheaper (the cost of a TLFB/TLPR for crisis suits), everyone would do that.
In tanks, you can get either SMS, burst cannon or 2 drones for the same price. sooo...everything else is even worse than the SMS and with irrelevant range as far as a tank cares. having the SMs cost even more would be silly considering the tanks are pretty lousy even with it. has they cost 10 points less with 10 points to turn drone/burst to SMS, most would stick to drone/burst.
Devilfish pays 10 to switch it's drones to an SMS. but, it already got a burst cannon, so having another gun hardly even helps as it will now snap shoot the burst cannon. not much of an upgrade.
Fire warriors can get an SMS turret upgrade, that requires not moving to set up, and if you do more later on, the turret is destroyed, also FW dies to a stern look, so erasing the squad and removing the gun isn't hard. few people take FW to begin with, fewer still upgrade them to have turrets.
Also, drones upgrading to marker FOR FREE?
HOLY HELL. its like every other equal weapon switch out there!
So freaking WHAT if the marker itself is "free", the drone isn't. a drone with markers don't have guns, a drone with a shield don't have markers or guns. its a freaking choice. you already paid for it when you bought the unit. same as scouts change for FREE between bolter, pistol+sword or shotgun. the price is in the scout.
On topic of how to make it fun to play Tau, you could put in my personal favourite fix for the Riptide Ion Accelerator.
Remove the non-Nova blast profile and reduce the range of the Nova profile to 36". Means if you want a large blast you have to:
1) Get closer to your enemy
2) Sit still the turn you want to fire due to Ordnance
3) Nova charge the weapon
So in order to drop a large blast on an opponent you have to forego the 3++ or 3D6" jump whilst at the same time getting closer to the enemy and then they have a turn to react after you've moved before you can actually fire the thing.
BoomWolf wrote: How can people even complain about EWO is baffling to me.
What does it do? hit people that deep strike/reserve. EWO does nothing if you actually play straight and deploy on the field.
So, basically, in order for it do even do ANYTHING, you need to first try to pull off your own "I get to shoot first and there is nothing you can do about it" move.
Oh my, how despicable of the tau to not allow up to grantee we will always get the first shot.
I'll tell you what, you can have EWO if my Raven Guard Chapter detachment makes it so you cannot Overwatch against my Assaults.
I mean, how despicable of the Raven Guard to not allow us to guarantee we will always get the charge right?
As it stands, my Chapter unique formations(Pinion, Shadowstrike Kill-Team, Ravenhawk Assault Group, etc) are neutered by the simple existence of EWO.
As for the SMS, seriusly? THATS a problem? a S5AP5 gun that ignores cover and LOS? being AP5 the fact it ignores cover is irrelevant against anything stronger than guardsmen. and the fact it ignores LOS? so does a whirlwind. and a TFC. and a basilisk, and a medusa, and thudd guns, and artillery carriages, and mortars, heavy mortars, night spinners, lobbas, impaler cannon, ironstork missile pod and every godamn barrage gun in the game. not everyone has one, but most does, either personally or through battle brothers. actually, the only ones who don't have any LOS ignoring guns even with BB are necron.
Most of them are never even taken! even though some of them are far FAR stronger than the SMS. they are simply actual units and not tac-on to things you actually want.
Whirlwinds and TFCs are most definitely taken.
Basilisks aren't taken because Guard armor is crap. The Artillery Company formation in Mont'ka has kinda/sorta alleviated this because finally a huge honking cannon used to level bunkers can Ignore Cover...with an Order.
Medusae, Thudd Guns, Artillery Carriages, and Heavy Mortars are FW and their usage is dependent on such a fact.
Mortars aren't taken because they're crap. You want to pretend that a S5 AP5 weapon that ignores cover and LOS is bad--try actually looking at a mortar sometime.
Since we both know you won't and you don't know what you're talking about, Mortars are S4 AP6 Heavy 1, Barrage, and Blast. So they cannot be Snap Fired, they only get Ignores Cover via a Company Command Squad Order or landing directly behind the cover and if the Mortar is fired Indirectly then the BS of the firer cannot be applied to the scatter results.
The SMS itself wouldn't have been taken on most units if there was any alternative, but there simply isn't. the fact it ignores LOS is almost never relevant, as it would mean the MAIN GUN isn't shooting if you needed to use that trick.
So what if the main gun isn't shooting? Seriously--do you not understand how your own stuff works?
EWO the SMS if you're able to--which you basically will be, if whatever it is comes on in 30" of the EWOing SMS.
Broadside can pay to replace it with plasma. and the plasma don't match the range of the main guns at all.
Riptide can switch to plasma or fusion for free, but these again don't quite match in ranges, the plasma is hardly required due to the IA being too good against heavy armor to begin with (the VERY FIRST problem in tau I said), and the fusion being better suited elsewhere. had a riptide been able to take none at all for being 20 points cheaper (the cost of a TLFB/TLPR for crisis suits), everyone would do that.
So your argument is that "it's garbage so why switch it out"...but then argue that it isn't needed because its "weapon ranges don't match the main guns"?
Boo friggin' hoo. That's the point of it being a SECONDARY WEAPON SYSTEM.
It's no different than sponsons on Guard tanks being able to take Plasma Cannons, Heavy Flamers, Multi-Meltas, or Heavy Bolters. They're not meant to be as good as the main gun(although in some cases they are just as good if not better than the main guns on a tank that is almost as many bloody points as your stupid Riptide with a joke survivability despite being rolling slabs of armor versus some schmuck in a tin can), they're there to be additional firepower.
In tanks, you can get either SMS, burst cannon or 2 drones for the same price. sooo...everything else is even worse than the SMS and with irrelevant range as far as a tank cares. having the SMs cost even more would be silly considering the tanks are pretty lousy even with it. has they cost 10 points less with 10 points to turn drone/burst to SMS, most would stick to drone/burst.
Devilfish pays 10 to switch it's drones to an SMS. but, it already got a burst cannon, so having another gun hardly even helps as it will now snap shoot the burst cannon. not much of an upgrade.
Welcome to being a vehicle?
Fire warriors can get an SMS turret upgrade, that requires not moving to set up, and if you do more later on, the turret is destroyed,
And then when you stay still it comes back.
Read your rules. ONLY army in the game with recycling heavy weapons in a squad. That 15 points lasts you as long as the squad does.
also FW dies to a stern look, so erasing the squad and removing the gun isn't hard. few people take FW to begin with, fewer still upgrade them to have turrets.
Stop leaving your FW in the open and they don't die as easy. Not every army has on demand Ignores Cover, bud.
Also, drones upgrading to marker FOR FREE?
HOLY HELL. its like every other equal weapon switch out there!
So freaking WHAT if the marker itself is "free", the drone isn't. a drone with markers don't have guns, a drone with a shield don't have markers or guns. its a freaking choice. you already paid for it when you bought the unit. same as scouts change for FREE between bolter, pistol+sword or shotgun. the price is in the scout.
Did you really just compare Markerlights and Shield Generators for the unit to shotguns, bolters, or pistols+CCWs?
BoomWolf wrote: How can people even complain about EWO is baffling to me.
What does it do? hit people that deep strike/reserve. EWO does nothing if you actually play straight and deploy on the field.
So, basically, in order for it do even do ANYTHING, you need to first try to pull off your own "I get to shoot first and there is nothing you can do about it" move.
Oh my, how despicable of the tau to not allow up to grantee we will always get the first shot.
I'll tell you what, you can have EWO if my Raven Guard Chapter detachment makes it so you cannot Overwatch against my Assaults.
I mean, how despicable of the Raven Guard to not allow us to guarantee we will always get the charge right?
As it stands, my Chapter unique formations(Pinion, Shadowstrike Kill-Team, Ravenhawk Assault Group, etc) are neutered by the simple existence of EWO.
As for the SMS, seriusly? THATS a problem? a S5AP5 gun that ignores cover and LOS? being AP5 the fact it ignores cover is irrelevant against anything stronger than guardsmen. and the fact it ignores LOS? so does a whirlwind. and a TFC. and a basilisk, and a medusa, and thudd guns, and artillery carriages, and mortars, heavy mortars, night spinners, lobbas, impaler cannon, ironstork missile pod and every godamn barrage gun in the game. not everyone has one, but most does, either personally or through battle brothers. actually, the only ones who don't have any LOS ignoring guns even with BB are necron.
Most of them are never even taken! even though some of them are far FAR stronger than the SMS. they are simply actual units and not tac-on to things you actually want.
Whirlwinds and TFCs are most definitely taken.
Basilisks aren't taken because Guard armor is crap. The Artillery Company formation in Mont'ka has kinda/sorta alleviated this because finally a huge honking cannon used to level bunkers can Ignore Cover...with an Order.
Medusae, Thudd Guns, Artillery Carriages, and Heavy Mortars are FW and their usage is dependent on such a fact.
Mortars aren't taken because they're crap. You want to pretend that a S5 AP5 weapon that ignores cover and LOS is bad--try actually looking at a mortar sometime.
Since we both know you won't and you don't know what you're talking about, Mortars are S4 AP6 Heavy 1, Barrage, and Blast. So they cannot be Snap Fired, they only get Ignores Cover via a Company Command Squad Order or landing directly behind the cover and if the Mortar is fired Indirectly then the BS of the firer cannot be applied to the scatter results.
The SMS itself wouldn't have been taken on most units if there was any alternative, but there simply isn't. the fact it ignores LOS is almost never relevant, as it would mean the MAIN GUN isn't shooting if you needed to use that trick.
So what if the main gun isn't shooting? Seriously--do you not understand how your own stuff works?
EWO the SMS if you're able to--which you basically will be, if whatever it is comes on in 30" of the EWOing SMS.
Broadside can pay to replace it with plasma. and the plasma don't match the range of the main guns at all.
Riptide can switch to plasma or fusion for free, but these again don't quite match in ranges, the plasma is hardly required due to the IA being too good against heavy armor to begin with (the VERY FIRST problem in tau I said), and the fusion being better suited elsewhere. had a riptide been able to take none at all for being 20 points cheaper (the cost of a TLFB/TLPR for crisis suits), everyone would do that.
So your argument is that "it's garbage so why switch it out"...but then argue that it isn't needed because its "weapon ranges don't match the main guns"?
Boo friggin' hoo. That's the point of it being a SECONDARY WEAPON SYSTEM.
It's no different than sponsons on Guard tanks being able to take Plasma Cannons, Heavy Flamers, Multi-Meltas, or Heavy Bolters. They're not meant to be as good as the main gun(although in some cases they are just as good if not better than the main guns on a tank that is almost as many bloody points as your stupid Riptide with a joke survivability despite being rolling slabs of armor versus some schmuck in a tin can), they're there to be additional firepower.
In tanks, you can get either SMS, burst cannon or 2 drones for the same price. sooo...everything else is even worse than the SMS and with irrelevant range as far as a tank cares. having the SMs cost even more would be silly considering the tanks are pretty lousy even with it. has they cost 10 points less with 10 points to turn drone/burst to SMS, most would stick to drone/burst.
Devilfish pays 10 to switch it's drones to an SMS. but, it already got a burst cannon, so having another gun hardly even helps as it will now snap shoot the burst cannon. not much of an upgrade.
Welcome to being a vehicle?
Fire warriors can get an SMS turret upgrade, that requires not moving to set up, and if you do more later on, the turret is destroyed,
And then when you stay still it comes back.
Read your rules. ONLY army in the game with recycling heavy weapons in a squad. That 15 points lasts you as long as the squad does.
also FW dies to a stern look, so erasing the squad and removing the gun isn't hard. few people take FW to begin with, fewer still upgrade them to have turrets.
Stop leaving your FW in the open and they don't die as easy. Not every army has on demand Ignores Cover, bud.
Also, drones upgrading to marker FOR FREE?
HOLY HELL. its like every other equal weapon switch out there!
So freaking WHAT if the marker itself is "free", the drone isn't. a drone with markers don't have guns, a drone with a shield don't have markers or guns. its a freaking choice. you already paid for it when you bought the unit. same as scouts change for FREE between bolter, pistol+sword or shotgun. the price is in the scout.
Did you really just compare Markerlights and Shield Generators for the unit to shotguns, bolters, or pistols+CCWs?
As inflammatory as the language is Kanluwen sums up the frustration that some factions feel in the fact that they are utterly invalidated... for instance Harlequins, Orks, Nids and Dark Eldar suffer critical existence failures just from bumping into some of these Tau combinations and that attributes to their bad reputation...
There a reason why Eldar is considered more OP and yet Tau are more loathed...
Harlequins got invuls everywhere, ignoring cover isn't thier problem.
Orks, nids and dark eldar are rendered irrelevant by freaking chaos, and chaos are irrelevant by space marines. Those three wouldn't be any more relevant if tau didn't exist.
If putting FW in cover made them somehow survivable despite T3 and lousy leadership, we would see scions being seriously played. Even in cover the FW die quickly to anything, even bolters are a serius threat.
And you are making a deal even out of shield drones? These are spare wounds . nothing more. They don't buff the unit, don't provide blanket protection, just have themselves a 4+ invul and no weapons what so ever.
The secondary gun point you made, can you direct me to people who plays competitively and take sponsor weapons if they can choose not to? My point was NOT "it's garbage so why switch out", it was "it's hardly relevant but the alternative is even less so, when I even have one. "
Honestly, most your complaints sounds as if you never actually played against tau, because if you had you would know just how insignificant most of these things are in an actual game.
As for Raven Guard stopping tau overwatch? It exists. Called pinning the LD7 dudes, or making them fall back (8 with sarge)-the first company strike force can drop it by 2 more. Going other army spesific the Dark Angels also has a formation thar forbids overwatch. Chaos got drige casters (not that chaos is otherwise functional), quinns got death jester shenanigans and DE can drop ld like crazy (again, both of these are not functional to begin with, just dishing random examples) and I'm sure there are a few tricks I don't know.
Or, if you want to take the powergame way do it with the skyhammer for 4 guaranteed units shut down. And it's only one of the most cheesy formations in existence. As cheesy as riptide wing.
They're really gakky invuls, so weight of fire, which we know Tau does VERY well, will chew through them if they aren't in cover using their cover increasing abilities.
Quickjager wrote: They're really gakky invuls, so weight of fire, which we know Tau does VERY well, will chew through them if they aren't in cover using their cover increasing abilities.
That's hardly unique to tau and part of the reason I said ignoring cover isn't thier problem.
Yea, Harlies have a bunch of problems. All of which are seen when they fight a Tau army specifically. Ignore Cover is a goddamn rare rule that usually requires delving into psychic powers to get.
The only other armies I think that could ruin them as fast and as badly are Necrons and maybe Space Marines if they did not go Grav.
BoomWolf wrote: Harlequins got invuls everywhere, ignoring cover isn't thier problem. Orks, nids and dark eldar are rendered irrelevant by freaking chaos, and chaos are irrelevant by space marines. Those three wouldn't be any more relevant if tau didn't exist.
Harlies and a plethora of other factions require speed/ LOS blocking terrain or boosted cover saves, Tau ignore all 3
In any case the point of this post was to discuss how Tau could be made more fun to play against rather than if they are OP and as such out of sequence shooting with the best shooting army in the game combined with almost every USR related to shooting isn't fun...as does anything that just promotes sitting back in a gunline.
So without rewriting the rules, I'd suggest having fast breacher units in Devilfish in an urban terrain setup or multiple deepstriking battle suits or even more Riptides over Stormsurges to promote movement, Tau armoured columns or massed infiltrators over markerlight spam. Hell even Kroot or Vespid auxiliary wings would be fun and Tau flyers could even make an appearance once in a while...
It's not about making Tau weaker or taking tamer lists, its about making lists that are more interactive rather than shooting galleries... that's what I want
More riptides are not the way to make it fun. Even the stormsurge is more fun than riptides to face, and least you can reach him without hat tricks. And the shotgun stormsurge actually comes to you.
In order to make interactive armies, keep large suits to minimum. Focus the smaller suits. Having many different crisis squads is cool, especially rare types like plasma (who are not taken because riptides) or the flamer suits.
Auxiliaries are also fun. The kroot and vespid formation is hilarious. Pirhana are cool as long you don't abuse firestorm.
Breachers are fun. So are carbine strikers in fishes.
OSC is freaking annoying at times, but its a knife's edge formation, so it's OK.
Many tau formations are amusing and promote aggressive or odd plays, experiment with the less commonly seen ones.
BoomWolf wrote: More riptides are not the way to make it fun. Even the stormsurge is more fun than riptides to face, and least you can reach him without hat tricks. And the shotgun stormsurge actually comes to you.
In order to make interactive armies, keep large suits to minimum. Focus the smaller suits. Having many different crisis squads is cool, especially rare types like plasma (who are not taken because riptides) or the flamer suits.
Auxiliaries are also fun. The kroot and vespid formation is hilarious. Pirhana are cool as long you don't abuse firestorm.
Breachers are fun. So are carbine strikers in fishes.
OSC is freaking annoying at times, but its a knife's edge formation, so it's OK.
Many tau formations are amusing and promote aggressive or odd plays, experiment with the less commonly seen ones.
I agree, I'd still say having a couple centerpiece models like riptides are perfectly fine to use against some of the tougher opponents out there as long as they don't latch onto the EWO + Ion Accelerator combo too much (I have Tau friends who fell in love with the big Mech idea and I'm guessing there are others who fell for that aesthetic , so I'd still say use them but perhaps with more uncommon subsystems or FW variants for example)
I have one riptide and one ghostkneel.
It's enough to activate the relevant formations (retaliation and OSC respectively), get some work done and don't cause annoyance as its just a small part of my army.
I'm not saying "don't take any riptides just, don't spam them. Everything is annoying when spammed, and riptides are a bit annoying to begin with.
BoomWolf wrote: I have one riptide and one ghostkneel.
It's enough to activate the relevant formations (retaliation and OSC respectively), get some work done and don't cause annoyance as its just a small part of my army.
I'm not saying "don't take any riptides just, don't spam them. Everything is annoying when spammed, and riptides are a bit annoying to begin with.
To be fair, if they are all painted up and modeled as Heltides I wouldn't mind you spamming them
Ghostkeel is the one MC in the Tau lineup I think looks cool and base-wise is balanced well.
As to address EWO... it is 5 points to literally have the chance to murder an opponent before that unit gets to do anything. It is a out of order shooting attack that pays for itself. 5 points is a no-brainer.
(I am also biased against it because guess what GK armies do and guess what MC has a blast that feths my gak up)
Ghostkeels can get pretty potent when in groups and also formations. They don't work on a linear power, but an exponential power level. One is meh. Two is okay and could replace HYMP Broadsides in a casual list. Adding those two into formations makes them great and finally some lists that go Ghostkeel heavy with 3 can be extremely potent with a Ghostkeel Wing. It's a very undervalued unit because its stats are deceptive.
Though most lists will likely just focus on two since they aren't that cheap.
Cover is a thing. And it's not like there aren't cover modifiers in some Tau formations, amirite?
And hell--it's not like Tau didn't just get their own unique set of fortifications that can cause vehicles to glance themselves to death with weapons that would otherwise never be able to glance, right?
A 4+ cover save in ruins is still a 4+ with a LD7 unit. Still very vulnerable and easy to force morale, which was my point. I have never seen the Tau fortification used in a game ever. Nor can you take it in any of the new formations or contingents, and if a fire warrior squad is sitting on my wall, and that is the most scary thing on the table at that time, then I think you already won the game.
Kanluwen wrote:
Spoiler:
I understood your point. However I also have argued this point with you several instances, and most of the time your reply is "Well it's S5 AP5".
Who gives a crap if it's S5 AP5? It's S5 AP5 Heavy 4 Ignores Cover Homing. You continually act as though the lack of AP and the BS needed to hit with Tau units is a hindrance while ignoring the fact that it is an exclusively twin-linked system with a relatively high ROF, a large range, and almost exclusively(barring Tau vehicles and the new Support Drone) on platforms with easy access to Interceptor.
That's why I keep trying to press home that SMS are a HUGE advantage, with or without Markerlights.
A single SMS is going to :
- kill 0.67 marines on average. That won't even be enough to force morale.
- cause 0.5 glances on a rhino. Anything tougher it can't effect.
- cause 1 glance on any AV10 vehicle, to get a pen your essentially getting lucky. Now, this is good against many targets across multiple armies. Some of those armies can also have invuls on their vehicles to mitigate, (looking at you DE, Harliquins).
- kill 2 Orks or any other T4 5+ or worse save model. But i dont think that is crushing the ork horde.
- kill 2.5 Guardsman, probably the most effective unit to shoot at, any T3 5+ or worse save unit.
Point being, the ignoring LOS is a tool that we are capable of using. What others are saying is that if we choose to use that tool, then we are effectively not using are other weapons on that shooting phase. I think this is where you are trying to counter point? where we can fire our normal weapon in overwatch and then shoot the SMS at anything we want.. or vice versa. And this is true, but because it is s5 ap5.. its not a game changer.. its annoying sure, but far from the most devastating of the Tau arsenal. And that is in essence my argument in any SMS debate, sure it ignores cover, sure its twin linked, and sure it ignores LOS... end of the day its s5 ap5 and its only ok in the current meta.
As stated earlier, easily our best counter to warp spiders because of the range and them being t3. We want them to flicker jump as much as possible.
Kanluwen wrote:
Spoiler:
grizzyzz wrote:
I am not sure exactly your point here? Also there is no free upgrade. A drone squad can be an combination of marker, gun, or shield drones @14pts per drone. Within a unit that has the option to purchase (not all can), these are taken at 12pts per model.
Unless you and I have different Tau Empire codices, that is not the case. Page 101 of the 2012 Tau Empire codex specifically states that a Drone Squadron may upgrade any Gun Drone to Marker Drone or Shield Drone for free.
Same codex to which end, I stated that you need to purchase the drone. Why does it matter that you can choose which drone you want? the drone itself is still 14pts.
Kanluwen wrote:The purchased Drones for Fire Caste stuff are 12 points. Those costs do NOT apply to the Drone Squadrons.
We realize that, and I thought i was pretty clear; only chose to include it because as i stated "not exactly sure your point", for bringing it up, as you mentioned "upgrade" and wanted to make sure everything was covered.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote:
You mentioned you play Ravenguard, which I can understand your frustration with SMS. SMS most effective targets are Ravenguards essential playstyle.
It negates your turn 1 shrouding, and all your AV10 skimmers jinking. Its good against scouts, because they only have 4+ and are usually low model count and require their cloaks, cover to stick around.
I can even understand overwatch/interceptor being very frustrating because most likely there is 1 beefy melee threat that your trying to get into combat, and that just won't work out.
Skyhammer works very nicely paired with ravenguard because you can start denying overwatch and add additional turn 1 assaults to lock up targets. It really isn't about beating Tau in combat (which inevitably will happen), its about locking them their so they can't fire in their turn.
Otherwise some other things you can do would be to saturate the field with many melee threats, fight on two fronts; Meaning, have that nasty unit right in our face, but have another one running up the board.. now we need to choose one to deal with and the other is there next turn.
Anyway just wanted to give some advice and move away from this back and forth we are having.
Why is SMS even being discussed? It's a nice weapon - but it's not breaking the game. Supporting fire kind of is. Ignoring cover with long ranged ap2 pie plates on indestructible and mobile platforms is. Interceptor on ap2 pie plates is too.
Xenomancers wrote: Why is SMS even being discussed? It's a nice weapon - but it's not breaking the game. Supporting fire kind of is. Ignoring cover with long ranged ap2 pie plates on indestructible and mobile platforms is. Interceptor on ap2 pie plates is too.
Xenomancers wrote: Why is SMS even being discussed? It's a nice weapon - but it's not breaking the game. Supporting fire kind of is. Ignoring cover with long ranged ap2 pie plates on indestructible and mobile platforms is. Interceptor on ap2 pie plates is too.
I brought it up off the cuff as its a nice counter to the recent use of Warp Spider spam, and it absolutely murders harlequins or DE or anything else thats fragile that relys on LOS/cover, in any case thats not what makes them OP.
In fact whether it's OP or not has nothing to do with the thread, its how to make them fun to play with/against and I'd argue that isn't dependent on how 'OP' a faction is and works under the assumption that a reasonable player of the top 4 codexes tones their list down against the weaker ones...
Toning down on interceptor and markerlights whilst promoting movement is a step in the right direction, in my humble opinion.
Torus wrote: Toning down on interceptor and markerlights whilst promoting movement is a step in the right direction, in my humble opinion.
Screw that.
If you want your Tau opponent to waste points on their list when they take EWOs, don't null deploy. Don't deepstrike or use reserves shenanigans. Deploy on the table. Doing so often enough will encourage your Tau opponent to leave EWOs at home.
As for markerlights? target them first. they are the simplest force multipliers that Tau players have. Don't like them? fine . . kill them first.
Torus wrote: Toning down on interceptor and markerlights whilst promoting movement is a step in the right direction, in my humble opinion.
Screw that.
If you want your Tau opponent to waste points on their list when they take EWOs, don't null deploy. Don't deepstrike or use reserves shenanigans. Deploy on the table. Doing so often enough will encourage your Tau opponent to leave EWOs at home.
As for markerlights? target them first. they are the simplest force multipliers that Tau players have. Don't like them? fine . . kill them first.
So your proposal is to footslog and get shot to death instead of deep striking and getting shot to death.
Great options with terminators there. But what do you care? You don't have to deal with a subpar codex. I guess I'll spam more Dreadknights so I can actually be fast AND have guns that are worth a damn.
By the way that attitude is why it isn't fun to play against Tau.
Torus wrote: Toning down on interceptor and markerlights whilst promoting movement is a step in the right direction, in my humble opinion.
Screw that.
If you want your Tau opponent to waste points on their list when they take EWOs, don't null deploy. Don't deepstrike or use reserves shenanigans. Deploy on the table. Doing so often enough will encourage your Tau opponent to leave EWOs at home.
As for markerlights? target them first. they are the simplest force multipliers that Tau players have. Don't like them? fine . . kill them first.
Again, this isn't asking advice for how to kill Tau either but how to make them more FUN TO PLAY WITH AND AGAINST. Theres a reason why this is in general topics rather than tactics
Torus wrote: Again, this isn't asking advice for how to kill Tau either but how to make them more FUN TO PLAY WITH AND AGAINST. There's a reason why this is in general topics rather than tactics
Sorry, but the general feel to this thread is that the only real way to have fun against tau is if the tau player shoots themselves in the foot, then hands the loaded gun to their opponent. I used to bring preprinted lists to such games, but with the amount of bullgak here (it is as though people don't WANT to talk things out with their opponents before games then throw a fit when their opponent brings something that they don't want to face), it seems as though we should be handing a ball peen hammer to our opponents as well.
The only real suggestion that I have for the OP, and people like yourself is to break the meta. Play FSE, find the tau equivilent to Lictor Shame, and play the hell out of it.
Torus wrote: Again, this isn't asking advice for how to kill Tau either but how to make them more FUN TO PLAY WITH AND AGAINST. There's a reason why this is in general topics rather than tactics
Sorry, but the general feel to this thread is that the only real way to have fun against tau is if the tau player shoots themselves in the foot, then hands the loaded gun to their opponent. I used to bring preprinted lists to such games, but with the amount of bullgak here (it is as though people don't WANT to talk things out with their opponents before games then throw a fit when their opponent brings something that they don't want to face), it seems as though we should be handing a ball peen hammer to our opponents as well.
The only real suggestion that I have for the OP, and people like yourself is to break the meta. Play FSE, find the tau equivilent to Lictor Shame, and play the hell out of it.
I know the feeling, If the Avatar didn't give it away I'm an Eldar player... This apparently equates me to the devil when it comes to the tabletop...
I know I'm beginning to sound like a broken record but I vehemently believe that a powerful list does not mean its inherently boring to play and with Tau, there must be away of having a good to powerful list that is also fun to play with and against
Xenomancers wrote: Why is SMS even being discussed? It's a nice weapon - but it's not breaking the game. Supporting fire kind of is. Ignoring cover with long ranged ap2 pie plates on indestructible and mobile platforms is. Interceptor on ap2 pie plates is too.
I brought it up off the cuff as its a nice counter to the recent use of Warp Spider spam, and it absolutely murders harlequins or DE or anything else thats fragile that relys on LOS/cover, in any case thats not what makes them OP.
In fact whether it's OP or not has nothing to do with the thread, its how to make them fun to play with/against and I'd argue that isn't dependent on how 'OP' a faction is and works under the assumption that a reasonable player of the top 4 codexes tones their list down against the weaker ones...
Toning down on interceptor and markerlights whilst promoting movement is a step in the right direction, in my humble opinion.
On topic about SMS Play with ITC rules where if they are intercepting, then the model needs line of sight in order to do so. That would mitigate some of the SMS annoyance.
As for everything else.. play FSE, it is your best shot. Play with whatever terrain your group is used to playing with, don't change that aspect. Crisis suits are most effective within 12-18" firing range.. and while they can JSJ backwards, it takes practice to both stay in effective range offensively, and keep out of your opponents effective range defensively. Point being, your crisis suits are not going to be unmanageable for your opponents. Depending on their army, I would argue to use some of the contingents because it is forcing you to not spam units and removes your objective secured. Going against any marine army, that is giving them an advantage right of the start.
In many historical scenarios, the attackers have a 2:1 advantage or more. The tau are always taking on the role of defender, and going up against this without superior numbers is destined to favor the tau.
It would also help to increase the number of LOS blocking terrain.
There are some people here literal whining about the range of Tau weapons... Why dont bring some more terrain. So that it actualy matters where a unit is on the table?
Tau are going to benefit from the range or their JSJ, so terrain can't save you. I don't think the range is that huge of a deal, as the Imperium has a lot of 48" guns, but they still mostly suck. It's the stat profiles and the marker light bonuses that make Tau tick.
_ghost_ wrote: It would also help to increase the number of LOS blocking terrain.
There are some people here literal whining about the range of Tau weapons... Why dont bring some more terrain. So that it actualy matters where a unit is on the table?
That same applies to Tau whining about the lack of durability on their Markerlight toting units(Pathfinders and Marker Drones).
The only difference is that in order for players to root out those Markerlight units, they need to specifically gear themselves up for it. The common thing Tau players throw at others who complain that it isn't exactly easy to root out Pathfinders in cover is "drop pod flamers".
Yeah, that's brilliant. Too bad you can drop on the other side of a building and still get SMS'd.
Martel732 wrote: Tau are going to benefit from the range or their JSJ, so terrain can't save you. I don't think the range is that huge of a deal, as the Imperium has a lot of 48" guns, but they still mostly suck. It's the stat profiles and the marker light bonuses that make Tau tick.
okay so. . .
lascannon str9 ap2 1 shot. splat any crisis suit or broadside.
missile launcher, str8 ap3. one shots crisis suits
autocannon str7 ap4 like our missile pods, wounding most things we have on a 2, everything else on a 3. not a dismiss-able weapon.
mortar str5 ap5 barrage. more useful than you might think on LOS blocking terrain tables.
battlecannons. like krak missiles, are going to one shot crisis suits and smaller.
yes, imp weapons suck. \sarcasm
play a mirror match, watch as the tau player shows you how to win.
For instance, I played against a KDK player. I read up on his force after we played, and I was aghast that he didn't field a Chaos lord on bike with Kor'lath. A hq that can get across the field and die in my face. and, if I should make the mistake of killing the model (155 pts), I get a deepstriking Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury (a 250 pt model) FMC extremely close to my lines. That I cannot take EWO shots at as it doesn't start in reserves.
tldr, if you want to know how to dismantle your opponent's army, ASK them!
I go up against those weapons constantly AND use them constantly and I can tell you that they are terrible. And their platforms are pretty bad as well.Especially compared to Xeno guns. Think about having to use those weapons against Riptides and Stormsurges or MCs in general.
Most Tau players I play with admit that there's nothing BA can do to even survive the fight, much less win.
Martel732 wrote: Tau are going to benefit from the range or their JSJ, so terrain can't save you. I don't think the range is that huge of a deal, as the Imperium has a lot of 48" guns, but they still mostly suck. It's the stat profiles and the marker light bonuses that make Tau tick.
okay so. . .
lascannon str9 ap2 1 shot. splat any crisis suit or broadside.
How often do you run Heavy Rail-Rifles on your Broadsides?
missile launcher, str8 ap3. one shots crisis suits
When fired as Krak instead of Frag, sure.
autocannon str7 ap4 like our missile pods, wounding most things we have on a 2, everything else on a 3. not a dismiss-able weapon.
S7 AP4, only available on Sentinels, Dreadnoughts, Hydra Flak Tanks(where it's a Skyfire weapon meaning snap firing against ground targets), Taurox APCs, Predator tanks as a main weapon, in a twin-linked version on the Leman Russ Exterminator, a coaxial mount on a Baneblade or Guard weapon teams.
mortar str5 ap5 barrage. more useful than you might think on LOS blocking terrain tables.
Also less helpful than you might think since the only platform toting Mortars are Guard weapon teams. You're looking at 5 points for a Mortar in a Infantry/Veteran/Command/Heavy Weapons Squad. They're Barrage so any indirect fire(read: those LOS blocking terrain tables) don't get to subtract their BS from Scatter.
battlecannons. like krak missiles, are going to one shot crisis suits and smaller.
Battle Cannons are also blast weapons, meaning you roll Scatter when firing.
Quite frankly I'm surprised you didn't throw out the Vanquisher Battle Cannon as an example. It's S8 AP2 with a 72" range and Armorbane!. OMG so OP!
yes, imp weapons suck. \sarcasm
You didn't actually make the point you think you made.
Kanluwen, imperial weapons are good! atleast not as bad as you want them to be.
please read better what he said: the poster never talked about hrr, he said lasconnons are very painful for broadside.
The part about frag doesn't make sense.
Why are you talking about frag, it is saying pulse rifles are bad because they can't kill a land raider, you shoot krak to kill hard targets and frags to kill more targets...
You are trying to tell us that autocannon platforms are not good, hard to get or what?
For sm you have whirlwinds how can be quiet useful against certain types of army. Which a mortar is in my opinion its the bane of hordes, useless against marines/termies.
Did you know ia pie plate has gets hots and scatters as well? Still is a good weapon, so what is your point with saying it can scatter?
Guys don't get me wrong tau are top tier and can be frustrating to play against.
However if tau play mobile and a kind of object games its a lot of fun. A IG gun line is just as boring as a tau gun line. Only difference is tau packs a bigger punch.
I switch to gk because there are so many people who hate tau. They people were just calling me names when I was looking into tau models in the store and refused to play as soon as pronounced ta(couldn't finish my word are they already said no) .
Please think on how you act to people. Start a dialogue any player wants to enjoy and have fun is willing to talk to ensure everyone has fun.
Just sad this post always attract the wrong people:(
Quickjager wrote: They were calling you names for looking at Tau models wtf? donkey-caves, Tau got some of the better looking infantry models with their update.
This. I might not like the goat hoofs or fish faces but the basic infantry look really good ... kroot can die in a fire though
Quickjager wrote: They were calling you names for looking at Tau models wtf? donkey-caves, Tau got some of the better looking infantry models with their update.
i got some looks from people in my FLGS when I was looking at the models. I also had the store owner give me a strange look when I mentioned wanting to start Tau or Dark Eldar. Thankfully he steered me away from DE which he said had a bad dex (this was I believe their 6e dex) he said it had only one way to be viably played. I had done some research that confirmed it was kinda limited dex.
Like I said Eldar might be hated, but I think the Tau are the only despised faction that a large chunk of the player base at large just hates with all their guts.
How often do you run Heavy Rail-Rifles on your Broadsides?
As freaking awesome that model is.. the answer is no one. Not sure if you were making a point that HRR outranges your lascannons... or that similarly, lascannons are never fielded (which iis not completely true, I see them fielded all the time, atleast in my area)
------------------------------------
@arthorn
That is so bad...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also.. you want to know how to wipe pathfinders and any hiding drones off the table.. thunder fire cannons. That formation is amazing as well by the way.
As freaking awesome that model is.. the answer is no one. Not sure if you were making a point that HRR outranges your lascannons... or that similarly, lascannons are never fielded (which iis not completely true, I see them fielded all the time, atleast in my area)
I don't mean to speak for him, but I think his point is that the lascanon is similar to the HRR, yet Tau never take them because they're awful, while imperials take lascanons because there's no other option.
Don't mean to interject, I just find this thread fascinating.
As freaking awesome that model is.. the answer is no one. Not sure if you were making a point that HRR outranges your lascannons... or that similarly, lascannons are never fielded (which iis not completely true, I see them fielded all the time, atleast in my area)
I don't mean to speak for him, but I think his point is that the lascanon is similar to the HRR, yet Tau never take them because they're awful, while imperials take lascanons because there's no other option.
The HRR is not actually bad.. the problem is the High Yield Missle Pod is 100x better and its at no extra cost. 1 s8 ap1 shot 60" or 4 Twin s7 ap4 shots 36".. it is like a no brainier which one you should choose. I was hoping in the new codex they were going to balance the HRR out more, or change the HYMP.. pretty much anything. but no.
That is probably the point he was trying to make. When I played my Sentinals of Terra I ran lascannon teams all the time, but chapter tactics gave them tank hunter, so they were a bit more consistent. Playing Ravenguard, I think Kanluwen's best option for some longer range artillery is the thunderfire cannon formation.
Griddlelol wrote: Don't mean to interject, I just find this thread fascinating.
As freaking awesome that model is.. the answer is no one. Not sure if you were making a point that HRR outranges your lascannons... or that similarly, lascannons are never fielded (which iis not completely true, I see them fielded all the time, atleast in my area)
I don't mean to speak for him, but I think his point is that the lascanon is similar to the HRR, yet Tau never take them because they're awful, while imperials take lascanons because there's no other option.
Don't mean to interject, I just find this thread fascinating.
You're completely right, it also doesn't help that most heavy weapon platforms IOM have are rubbish and usually have very few ways to add force multipliers to them (such as twinlinking or ignores cover, there are certainly exceptions but they are few and far between) so you can understand some of the resentment when there a direct comparison with the 2 factions.
As freaking awesome that model is.. the answer is no one. Not sure if you were making a point that HRR outranges your lascannons... or that similarly, lascannons are never fielded (which iis not completely true, I see them fielded all the time, atleast in my area)
I don't mean to speak for him, but I think his point is that the lascanon is similar to the HRR, yet Tau never take them because they're awful, while imperials take lascanons because there's no other option.
Don't mean to interject, I just find this thread fascinating.
As freaking awesome that model is.. the answer is no one. Not sure if you were making a point that HRR outranges your lascannons... or that similarly, lascannons are never fielded (which iis not completely true, I see them fielded all the time, atleast in my area)
I don't mean to speak for him, but I think his point is that the lascanon is similar to the HRR, yet Tau never take them because they're awful, while imperials take lascanons because there's no other option.
The HRR is not actually bad.. the problem is the High Yield Missle Pod is 100x better and its at no extra cost. 1 s8 ap1 shot 60" or 4 Twin s7 ap4 shots 36".. it is like a no brainier which one you should choose. I was hoping in the new codex they were going to balance the HRR out more, or change the HYMP.. pretty much anything. but no.
The problem is that the HRR, and Lascannon, and Railguns, and Leman Russ Vanquisher Cannons, and Transauranic Arqeubi, and all the other single shot low AP high Strength are less effective than anything with high ROF and middling Strength and AP when it comes to tank busting--and far superior when it comes to monster hunting.
That is probably the point he was trying to make. When I played my Sentinals of Terra I ran lascannon teams all the time, but chapter tactics gave them tank hunter, so they were a bit more consistent. Playing Ravenguard, I think Kanluwen's best option for some longer range artillery is the thunderfire cannon formation.
Thunderfire Cannons cannot be taken by the Raven Guard detachment.
I have access to the following if I play Raven Guard strictly via their Detachment
Spoiler:
Strike Force Command
Reclusiam Command Squad
Battle Demi-Company
Pinion Battle Demi-Company
1st Company Task Force
10th Company Task Force
Shadowstrike Kill Team
Raptor Wing
Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force(NOT the one you're thinking of)
Shadow Force
Bladewing Assault Brotherhood
Ravenhawk Assault Group
Storm Wing
Anti-Air Defence Force
Suppression Force
There is no 'formation' for Thunderfire Cannons. They're a Heavy Support choice and the bonus is for them being taken as a trio.
Do you want a Markerlight Perils Table? Maybe if you miss, you have to take a Blind test?
lmao
"Is this thing working? *aims laser at eyes* GYAAH!"
Xenomancers wrote: Why is SMS even being discussed? It's a nice weapon - but it's not breaking the game. Supporting fire kind of is. Ignoring cover with long ranged ap2 pie plates on indestructible and mobile platforms is. Interceptor on ap2 pie plates is too.
Indeed.
Torus wrote: I know the feeling, If the Avatar didn't give it away I'm an Eldar player... This apparently equates me to the devil when it comes to the tabletop...
He does kinda look like one, though. The red isn't helping.
Quickjager wrote: They were calling you names for looking at Tau models wtf? donkey-caves, Tau got some of the better looking infantry models with their update.
Tau really do have one of the best-looking miniature ranges (a couple of stinkers though, like the sun shark), and the fire warrior kit in particular does look pretty damn good. I also find it amusing comparing it to the old one, the sprues for the old kit just look so barren, and the details on the new one are so much better, without going overboard like GW tends to do on Space Marine kits and their bling.
But yeah, that's the kind of attitude that threads like this breed. The kind of toxicity you see on forums like Dakka bleeds into real life, and you end up with people being legitimately harassed just because they like those cool models. And when people actually take the plunge and build up an army, supporting their local store, they're rewarded for their efforts by being denied games and being treated like they're human filth.
Between rules that are worse than garbage, and people like that, it's not hard to see why 40k is dying.
Do you want a Markerlight Perils Table? Maybe if you miss, you have to take a Blind test?
lmao
"Is this thing working? *aims laser at eyes* GYAAH!"
Now more than ever I want this to be a thing.
I'm going to make a Markerlight Perils table.
Quickjager wrote: They were calling you names for looking at Tau models wtf? donkey-caves, Tau got some of the better looking infantry models with their update.
Tau really do have one of the best-looking miniature ranges (a couple of stinkers though, like the sun shark), and the fire warrior kit in particular does look pretty damn good. I also find it amusing comparing it to the old one, the sprues for the old kit just look so barren, and the details on the new one are so much better, without going overboard like GW tends to do on Space Marine kits and their bling.
But yeah, that's the kind of attitude that threads like this breed. The kind of toxicity you see on forums like Dakka bleeds into real life, and you end up with people being legitimately harassed just because they like those cool models. And when people actually take the plunge and build up an army, supporting their local store, they're rewarded for their efforts by being denied games and being treated like they're human filth.
Between rules that are worse than garbage, and people like that, it's not hard to see why 40k is dying.
To be fair as much vitriol as I have towards the Tau online, I'm never going to say no to a game with someone that I have built a rapport with. I played a 1v1v1 against Tau(brand new player) and Ravenwing last Saturday with my Skitarii as a learning game for the Tau player at 750 points and we all had an absolute blast. I lost by 1 KP, but had a lone Skitarii Ranger tie up two Crisis Suits, a unit of Gun Drones, a unit of Stealth Suits, and a Ghostkeel in CC for almost four turns...before he got squished by the Ghostkeel.
There are people I won't play against, but it has nothing to do with their armies. It has everything to do with their attitudes and behaviors.
There is no 'formation' for Thunderfire Cannons. They're a Heavy Support choice and the bonus is for them being taken as a trio.
Ah my mistake, I was thinking of the armored company.
So.. take an allied detachment? 1 HQ 1 Troop, and a unit of 3 TFCs.. seems not bad at all.
I could...or I could also just start running a much meaner force in terms of my Raven Guard.
The issue there is that my army relies on either Deep Striking with obscene precision(Shadowstrike Kill Team, Ravenhawk Assault Group, Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force) or Outflanking(Pinion Battle Demi-Company->Wayfinders special rule; Scouts escorting a unit onto the board) and relies on the Detachment bonus of "Know When to Strike"(you can choose to make a Reserve roll for any of the units in reserve at the start of your first turn, on a 4+ they arrive).
Because of the fact that my signature Demi-Company, the Pinion, necessitates Scouts and the army as a whole relies heavily upon its Shrouded until turn 2 begins(not "Shrouded on the turn you arrive" and not being mounted in vehicles(You can't claim the "Strike From the Shadows" bonus if any unit is mounted in a Transport vehicle when the game begins), it's very much a...specialist army.
Plus I can reroll literally damn near every pregame thing except for my flippin' Warlord Trait. Reroll the Mission Table result, the result when rolling for a Random Demployment Zone, and reroll when rolling to see who deploys first. Can't reroll a bad Warlord Trait though.
Additionally, you seem to be under the impression that the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics are amazing. They're okay, but they're like any other Stealth/Shrouded heavy army reliant upon Assault units. In order to benefit most, I'm going to want a large amount of Jump Pack equipped models(Winged Deliverance granting rerolls to HoW attacks and using the Jump Packs in both Movement and Assault phases) and I'm going to want to avoid transports for the first turn(Strike From the Shadows disallowing them the Shrouded benefit if they start embarked).
But hey, I get +1 to Night Fighting right? That all balances out!
The issue there is that my army relies on either Deep Striking with obscene precision(Shadowstrike Kill Team, Ravenhawk Assault Group, Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force) or Outflanking(Pinion Battle Demi-Company->Wayfinders special rule; Scouts escorting a unit onto the board) and relies on the Detachment bonus of "Know When to Strike"(you can choose to make a Reserve roll for any of the units in reserve at the start of your first turn, on a 4+ they arrive). Because of the fact that my signature Demi-Company, the Pinion, necessitates Scouts and the army as a whole relies heavily upon its Shrouded until turn 2 begins(not "Shrouded on the turn you arrive" and not being mounted in vehicles(You can't claim the "Strike From the Shadows" bonus if any unit is mounted in a Transport vehicle when the game begins), it's very much a...specialist army.
Plus I can reroll literally damn near every pregame thing except for my flippin' Warlord Trait. Reroll the Mission Table result, the result when rolling for a Random Demployment Zone, and reroll when rolling to see who deploys first.
Ravenguard was my first marine chapter before I moved to Imperial Fists. I love Ravenguard fluff, its awesome. Lightning claw assault veterans are awesome (in the fluff ). I really like the new formations and relics for the ravenguard i think it was a much needed boost to them. Maybe Shrike will even be a chapter master in 8th..
Kanluwen wrote: relies heavily upon its Shrouded until turn 2 begins(not "Shrouded on the turn you arrive"
Is it just your first turn? hmm i will have to reread the chapter tactics when i get home.. I could have sworn it was turn 1 or the first turn they arrive from reserve. BOO!
We shouldn't even have to roll... we should just be able to select a trait, its so dumb. 50% of the traits won't even help your army list... hard example.. Tau getting reroll 1s in assault. The warlord trait should be something we can choose and build an army around. Hopefully they change this in 8th.. i would like to see that changed anyway
Well if you want to play against them competitively, drop pods, and close combat, if running SEQ vanguard droppods or charge in with bikes and teleport homer with assault terminators would really mess up their day.
But if you want to have the most fun, i take the advice of one of the older plays at our store.
"Just make an awesome movie, does not matter if you win or loose, just do it with style and look like a bad ass."
Just make the game fun, if you got a gunline of tau, what would be more bad ass, taking cover in a building and trading blows?
Or saying screw it, charge in with the land raider, hope you get glancing blows, bash right into their gun lines and unload your terminators, with TH/SS and start crushing skulls
I say nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. Why would anyone bother to try to fight Tau, Eldar, or Daemons if you can WMD them to death?
The issue there is that my army relies on either Deep Striking with obscene precision(Shadowstrike Kill Team, Ravenhawk Assault Group, Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force) or Outflanking(Pinion Battle Demi-Company->Wayfinders special rule; Scouts escorting a unit onto the board) and relies on the Detachment bonus of "Know When to Strike"(you can choose to make a Reserve roll for any of the units in reserve at the start of your first turn, on a 4+ they arrive).
Because of the fact that my signature Demi-Company, the Pinion, necessitates Scouts and the army as a whole relies heavily upon its Shrouded until turn 2 begins(not "Shrouded on the turn you arrive" and not being mounted in vehicles(You can't claim the "Strike From the Shadows" bonus if any unit is mounted in a Transport vehicle when the game begins), it's very much a...specialist army.
Plus I can reroll literally damn near every pregame thing except for my flippin' Warlord Trait. Reroll the Mission Table result, the result when rolling for a Random Demployment Zone, and reroll when rolling to see who deploys first.
Ravenguard was my first marine chapter before I moved to Imperial Fists. I love Ravenguard fluff, its awesome. Lightning claw assault veterans are awesome (in the fluff ). I really like the new formations and relics for the ravenguard i think it was a much needed boost to them. Maybe Shrike will even be a chapter master in 8th..
Shrike needs to be given a couple of different 'forms' in that he should have a shooty variant and a CC variant. That'd go a long way towards making me not hate his stupid self.
Truthfully, I'm running a Raptors force but given that their rules are now a Space Marines Codex out of date it's easier to just run them as Raven Guard.
Kanluwen wrote: relies heavily upon its Shrouded until turn 2 begins(not "Shrouded on the turn you arrive"
Is it just your first turn? hmm i will have to reread the chapter tactics when i get home.. I could have sworn it was turn 1 or the first turn they arrive from reserve. BOO!
Strike From the Shadows applies until the start of your second turn.
We shouldn't even have to roll... we should just be able to select a trait, its so dumb. 50% of the traits won't even help your army list... hard example.. Tau getting reroll 1s in assault. The warlord trait should be something we can choose and build an army around. Hopefully they change this in 8th.. i would like to see that changed anyway
Difference is that you actually do get to reroll your Warlord traits--I literally can reroll every pregame thing beyond my Warlord Trait!
I wouldn't mind it so much if the table weren't so heavily split between "Dedicated Close Combat Options"(Silent Stalker and Swift and Deadly), "Shooting dependent Warlord" (Concentrated Attack and Vanish into the Gloom), and "Generic Game Mechanic Options" (Master of Shadows and Exit Strategy).
I run a Chapter Master toting Ex Tenebris and the Armour of Shadows, made using the Captain from Shadow Force Solaq to represent Lias Issodon. If I roll anything beyond Concentrated Attack or Vanish into the Gloom, it basically becomes a wasted character.
_ghost_ wrote: It would also help to increase the number of LOS blocking terrain.
There are some people here literal whining about the range of Tau weapons... Why dont bring some more terrain. So that it actualy matters where a unit is on the table?
That same applies to Tau whining about the lack of durability on their Markerlight toting units(Pathfinders and Marker Drones).
The only difference is that in order for players to root out those Markerlight units, they need to specifically gear themselves up for it. The common thing Tau players throw at others who complain that it isn't exactly easy to root out Pathfinders in cover is "drop pod flamers".
Yeah, that's brilliant. Too bad you can drop on the other side of a building and still get SMS'd.
How about you just shoot at them with anything at all? They're toughness three with a 5+ armor save and leadership 7. Just shoot at them with anything and they'll drop like flies. Pathfinders are really not that great. The real problem are drones, and even then those still can drop easy like.
Martel732 wrote: Imperium guns are that inefficient. That's why.
Thats why you have all the doctrines and chapter tactics tho. Help bring you up to snuff.
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Martel732 wrote: Imperium guns are that inefficient. That's why.
I realize this is gonna push your buttons.. but I am gonna say it anyway Heavy bolters man.. they crush Tau infantry. My friends run landspeeders all the time with heavy bolters and they just jump around mowing down my pathfinders. They can stay out of markerlight range.. move 12" into their 36" range.. and then wipe out my squads.
Martel i see. Imperial Guys are that inefficient that it doesn't matter if they shoot or not. also in adittion they are unable to move at all have no save at all and will never reach close combat. And when they reach Close Combat they won'T hit. What a shame. i think imperial guys should never ever try to play any game. they cannot do anything. in fact it doesnt matter if they face Tau, Nids or even a dump stone.
Martel732 wrote: Imperium guns are that inefficient. That's why.
Thats why you have all the doctrines and chapter tactics tho. Help bring you up to snuff.
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Martel732 wrote: Imperium guns are that inefficient. That's why.
I realize this is gonna push your buttons.. but I am gonna say it anyway Heavy bolters man.. they crush Tau infantry. My friends run landspeeders all the time with heavy bolters and they just jump around mowing down my pathfinders. They can stay out of markerlight range.. move 12" into their 36" range.. and then wipe out my squads.
That's list tailoring, though. Heavy bolters can't be used against the field at large because they are so terrible.
You act like chapter tactics and such really matter. What matters is getting invis and ignore cover on a unit of grav cents. That's what matters.
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_ghost_ wrote: Martel i see. Imperial Guys are that inefficient that it doesn't matter if they shoot or not. also in adittion they are unable to move at all have no save at all and will never reach close combat. And when they reach Close Combat they won'T hit. What a shame. i think imperial guys should never ever try to play any game. they cannot do anything. in fact it doesnt matter if they face Tau, Nids or even a dump stone.
Compared to Eldar and Tau, it doesn't matter if they shoot or not. That's true.
That's list tailoring, though. Heavy bolters can't be used against the field at large because they are so terrible.
No list tailoring, they use them all the time double heavy bolters in squads of 3 pumps out 18 s5 ap4 shots at an effective range of 48". They do work against about every foot soldier in the game.
That's list tailoring, though. Heavy bolters can't be used against the field at large because they are so terrible.
No list tailoring, they use them all the time double heavy bolters in squads of 3 pumps out 18 s5 ap4 shots at an effective range of 48". They do work against about every foot soldier in the game.
Except they don't. Do the math. Heavy bolters are god awful garbage.
_ghost_ wrote: It would also help to increase the number of LOS blocking terrain.
There are some people here literal whining about the range of Tau weapons... Why dont bring some more terrain. So that it actualy matters where a unit is on the table?
That same applies to Tau whining about the lack of durability on their Markerlight toting units(Pathfinders and Marker Drones).
The only difference is that in order for players to root out those Markerlight units, they need to specifically gear themselves up for it. The common thing Tau players throw at others who complain that it isn't exactly easy to root out Pathfinders in cover is "drop pod flamers".
Yeah, that's brilliant. Too bad you can drop on the other side of a building and still get SMS'd.
How about you just shoot at them with anything at all? They're toughness three with a 5+ armor save and leadership 7. Just shoot at them with anything and they'll drop like flies. Pathfinders are really not that great. The real problem are drones, and even then those still can drop easy like.
Sure, let me light them up with my sniper rifles(the closest thing I have in the 36" range bracket that Pathfinders bring for their Markerlights in my Raven Guard).
What's that? Sniper Rifles are on T4 4+ models? Huh. Gee I wonder what the Tau can throw at that, and give the weapons Ignore Cover to negate my Cover bonuses?
I'm really kinda tired of Tau players pretending that Pathfinders are awful. Are they killing things? No. But that's not their job, nor has it ever been their job. Their job has always been to provide Markerlights. Those Markerlights are what the Tau use to kill things. And compared to what other armies get for a similar points outlay to Pathfinders?
4 models providing Markerlights for 44 points in a Pathfinder squad versus 65 points for a L1 Librarian in Codex: Space Marines(another 25 points to become L2) or 30 points for a Platoon Commander and his lackeys in a Guard Infantry Platoon(giving you access to 5/9 Orders, only two of which are worthwhile: First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire granting a second Lasgun shot and Smite at Will granting Split Fire) or 60 points for a Company Commander and his lackeys in a Company Command Squad, giving you access to all 9 Orders at the cost of an HQ slot.
That's list tailoring, though. Heavy bolters can't be used against the field at large because they are so terrible.
No list tailoring, they use them all the time double heavy bolters in squads of 3 pumps out 18 s5 ap4 shots at an effective range of 48". They do work against about every foot soldier in the game.
Except they don't. Do the math. Heavy bolters are god awful garbage.
lol, I am not bringing this up for another debate here. No its not s6. But does it work against the majority of armies troops yes. Especially 4+ troops.
I still maintain it's a list tailoring choice, if no other reason than the number of meq lists. That's on top of Tau lists that spam Riptides and Eldar lists that have no 4+ saves in them at all. It's not even that good vs Necrons, because warriors are still getting a 4+ RP on top of cover.
Martel732 wrote: I don't know if you are trying to trick people or not, but trying to shoot Tau seems to be playing right into their hands.
All i am doing is giving options.. the imperium has answers for Tau you just can't go all in on 1 you need to balance your list out. Tau is a top tier codex. and so is Space marine, heck space marines placed higher then Tau at LVO. (I realize it was only 1 tournament, but no one can say space marines are not good)
Automatically Appended Next Post: For example running some dakka speeders in the background while you have an entire army in Tau's face ... leaves the speeders free to grab objectives and be a nuisance because Tau then need to handle what is at the front door.
Martel732 wrote: I don't know if you are trying to trick people or not, but trying to shoot Tau seems to be playing right into their hands.
All i am doing is giving options.. the imperium has answers for Tau you just can't go all in on 1 you need to balance your list out. Tau is a top tier codex. and so is Space marine, heck space marines placed higher then Tau at LVO. (I realize it was only 1 tournament, but no one can say space marines are not good)
Automatically Appended Next Post: For example running some dakka speeders in the background while you have an entire army in Tau's face ... leaves the speeders free to grab objectives and be a nuisance because Tau then need to handle what is at the front door.
Obviously since I don't know my opponents ahead of time, I have balance my lists out. I just can't justify spending fast attack slots on heavy bolters. I've basically quit using BA heavy support units in general as well. This is to minimize the amount of points I'm spending on units that don't do anything at all.
Obviously since I don't know my opponents ahead of time, I have balance my lists out. I just can't justify spending fast attack slots on heavy bolters. I've basically quit using BA heavy support units in general as well. This is to minimize the amount of points I'm spending on units that don't do anything at all.
No justification needed. In the ravenguard decurian i believe you are required to bring a landspeeder squad. 45 points for one with 2 heavy bolters is not a bad unit at all.
Obviously since I don't know my opponents ahead of time, I have balance my lists out. I just can't justify spending fast attack slots on heavy bolters. I've basically quit using BA heavy support units in general as well. This is to minimize the amount of points I'm spending on units that don't do anything at all.
No justification needed. In the ravenguard decurian i believe you are required to bring a landspeeder squad. 45 points for one with 2 heavy bolters is not a bad unit at all.
Something that's good for just DA is not a very general solution. Although I personally would never pay 45 pts for just two heavy bolters, so I'd say that it is indeed a bad unit. I could have two scatterbikes instead with Eldar. More shots, more strength, more durability.
Martel732 wrote: I don't know if you are trying to trick people or not, but trying to shoot Tau seems to be playing right into their hands.
target prioritization, it can be done depending on the list. I like running a very mobile tau list, core is 4 devilfish with 10 pathfinders each, a stealth cadre, a few pathfinder teams and a retaliation cadre (mostly all these are min squads, 3 melta/plasma EWO suits, a missile broadside, and a ripide solo ) makes for a fun mobile army but I can be outgunned. I realize this does not represent all tau lists, but not everybody playing tau runs a stationary gunline
Obviously since I don't know my opponents ahead of time, I have balance my lists out. I just can't justify spending fast attack slots on heavy bolters. I've basically quit using BA heavy support units in general as well. This is to minimize the amount of points I'm spending on units that don't do anything at all.
No justification needed. In the ravenguard decurian i believe you are required to bring a landspeeder squad. 45 points for one with 2 heavy bolters is not a bad unit at all.
Something that's good for just DA is not a very general solution. Although I personally would never pay 45 pts for just two heavy bolters, so I'd say that it is indeed a bad unit. I could have two scatterbikes instead with Eldar. More shots, more strength, more durability.
Except your not eldar, you don't have scatbikes.. if marines did they would use them. Maybe give some unorthodox units a try to see what surprises you.. obviously what you normally do is not panning out from what you have mentioned across multiple threads.
Like heavy bolter land speeders are going to magically make things better? Okay.
The reality is that the biggest flaw to the BA is the lack of units NOT based off meq stats, imo. No MCs, no pseudo MCs like TWC, no Centurions, etc.
We don't have any unorthodox units. They are all marine stat lines with a couple special rules that don't help enough. BA are in a mathematical hole that the regular marines aren't. But the regular marines get out of that hole my using units OTHER than marines. Except, of course, for Gladius.
Obviously since I don't know my opponents ahead of time, I have balance my lists out. I just can't justify spending fast attack slots on heavy bolters. I've basically quit using BA heavy support units in general as well. This is to minimize the amount of points I'm spending on units that don't do anything at all.
No justification needed. In the ravenguard decurian i believe you are required to bring a landspeeder squad. 45 points for one with 2 heavy bolters is not a bad unit at all.
Raven Guard have no requirement to take Land Speeders--and even if they did they have no benefits, excepting the one Land Speeder in Shadow Force Solaq.
They have three formations unique to them requiring Land Speeders, but none of those formations are mandatory.
Martel732 wrote: Like heavy bolter land speeders are going to magically make things better? Okay.
The reality is that the biggest flaw to the BA is the lack of units NOT based off meq stats, imo. No MCs, no pseudo MCs like TWC, no Centurions, etc.
We don't have any unorthodox units. They are all marine stat lines with a couple special rules that don't help enough. BA are in a mathematical hole that the regular marines aren't. But the regular marines get out of that hole my using units OTHER than marines. Except, of course, for Gladius.
Right and as I said in another post, your BA are battle brothers.. you can ally other chapters.. but I know you don't want to do this... And given that.. then your stuck where you are.. sad with no answers to anything with a bad codex.
Personally I see BA similar to DE and Harlequins and others.. an army that "can be stand alone" but is really meant to be an allied force for some other "core" army.
Martel732 wrote: Like heavy bolter land speeders are going to magically make things better? Okay.
The reality is that the biggest flaw to the BA is the lack of units NOT based off meq stats, imo. No MCs, no pseudo MCs like TWC, no Centurions, etc.
We don't have any unorthodox units. They are all marine stat lines with a couple special rules that don't help enough. BA are in a mathematical hole that the regular marines aren't. But the regular marines get out of that hole my using units OTHER than marines. Except, of course, for Gladius.
Right and as I said in another post, your BA are battle brothers.. you can ally other chapters.. but I know you don't want to do this... And given that.. then your stuck where you are.. sad with no answers to anything with a bad codex.
Personally I see BA similar to DE and Harlequins and others.. an army that "can be stand alone" but is really meant to be an allied force for some other "core" army.
Except that's not the case. BA are in the situation they're in now because they are a Space Marine Codex that has received none of the real revamp that the other books have. Dark Angels used to be in the same position, being a kind of developer testbed for the main Space Marine book.
Martel732 wrote: Like heavy bolter land speeders are going to magically make things better? Okay.
The reality is that the biggest flaw to the BA is the lack of units NOT based off meq stats, imo. No MCs, no pseudo MCs like TWC, no Centurions, etc.
We don't have any unorthodox units. They are all marine stat lines with a couple special rules that don't help enough. BA are in a mathematical hole that the regular marines aren't. But the regular marines get out of that hole my using units OTHER than marines. Except, of course, for Gladius.
Right and as I said in another post, your BA are battle brothers.. you can ally other chapters.. but I know you don't want to do this... And given that.. then your stuck where you are.. sad with no answers to anything with a bad codex.
Personally I see BA similar to DE and Harlequins and others.. an army that "can be stand alone" but is really meant to be an allied force for some other "core" army.
OK, I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. Harlies MAYBE, and something like Mechanicum sure, but DE and BA? The idea that two ENTIRELY STANDALONE FACTIONS with books that are about as large as some of the mid-tier codexes can only work with allies is stupid, and a great indication that the game's current state is bonkers broken.
Except that the BA have no units that aren't rendered pointless by the vanilla codex. So why bother with allies? Toss the BA in the trash and get vanilla marines.
Everyone can ally everyone in this game anyway. Battle brothers is actually largely irrelevant.
Raven Guard have no requirement to take Land Speeders--and even if they did they have no benefits, excepting the one Land Speeder in Shadow Force Solaq.
They have three formations unique to them requiring Land Speeders, but none of those formations are mandatory.
Fair enough, maybe try running a couple of those auxiliary options? Landspeeders are a neat platform. Flexible offensive options and being a fast skimmer is great!
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Martel732 wrote: Except that the BA have no units that aren't rendered pointless by the vanilla codex. So why bother with allies? Toss the BA in the trash and get vanilla marines.
Everyone can ally everyone in this game anyway. Battle brothers is actually largely irrelevant.
Then don't play BAlol. Battle brothers is one reason why space marines are good. Without it, they wouldn't be able to share psychic buffs and other army wide benefits. Remember Taudar?
Except for psychic buffs, ICs and transports ofc. But, Sanqumancy is basically weirder Biomancy, though I COULD see it being good with a SmashFether Deathstar and have considered bringing some BA allies for my Iron Hands for that and a Sanguinary Priest for an easy-to-insert FNP. Wouldn;t do it outside of a tourney though, because it's rediculous to think that BA are reduced to an IC or two and a Drop-pod Taxi Service for Mechanicum. Seriously, it wouldn't even take that much to make BA mid-tier. But right now? their one of the worst codexes, and that is bloody stupid.
EDIT:
Then don't play BAlol
So, what your saying is, that he should give up the army he has been playing for years, simply because he wants to be competitive? Again, the fact that he should even have to CONSIDER giving up to have a chance in a competitive environment is utter fething bullhockey.
I don't think battle brothers contributes at all to space marines being good. They have no synergy as effective as Taudar. It's all about formations and such.
Raven Guard have no requirement to take Land Speeders--and even if they did they have no benefits, excepting the one Land Speeder in Shadow Force Solaq.
They have three formations unique to them requiring Land Speeders, but none of those formations are mandatory.
Fair enough, maybe try running a couple of those auxiliary options? Landspeeders are a neat platform. Flexible offensive options and being a fast skimmer is great!
Do you know what the Auxiliary options including Land Speeders are?
Shadow Force(non-unique version or the Solaq version)
-Sternguard
-Captain or any named character
-Vanguard Veteran
-A unit of Land Speeders
That gets you Acute Senses, Move Through Cover, Scout, and non-vehicle units in this Formation rerolling dice when determining their Run moves and vehicle units in this Formation can move an additional 6" when moving flat-out.
Raptor Wing
-1 unit of Land Speeders
-2 Stormtalon Gunships
If the Stormtalons are in Reserve at the start of your 2nd turn, they arrive automatically. A Land Speeder from this Formation can nominate an enemy unit within 18" and in LOS for the Stormtalons to reroll failed To Wound and Armour Penetration rolls (allowing for rerolling glances to get penetrating hits) when firing at the priority target.
Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force
-3 Tactical Squads with Drop Pods at point costs
-1 to 3 units of Land Speeders
Pick a point on the battlefield to mark the center of the Formation's dropsite. Units from this formation reroll To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 against enemy units within 12" of that point and Drop Pods from this Formation that arrive within 12" of that point scatter D6" rather than 2D6".
Tactical Squads can run and then shoot on the same turn they disembark from their Drop Pods as well.
Very few of those really are super impressive, even before you factor in their points cost.
Typhoon speeders are actually much more useful than heavy bolter speeders against the field, imo. A typhoon speeder does have a single heavy bolter, but that's not the main point.
Martel732 wrote: I don't think battle brothers contributes at all to space marines being good. They have no synergy as effective as Taudar.
Unless your either thunder Dome or CavalryStar
Both of which really only get away with it because of the fact that rather than giving the other books "Chapter Tactics: X", they give them USRs.
Things like Wolves with a White Scars Conclave would be sorted out fairly quick in terms of some of their power with that simple change. Remember that Chapter Tactics don't mix--it's not a case of "Pick the one you like best", they're turned off if you mix them.
Oh, sorry, got confused there . Honestly, I wish they would just do away with the BBs sharing Transports and ICs all together. Possibly making Inquisitors a unit attachment for IG at that point, not sure. Would take away a ton of the issues with Imperium allies, though obviously more balancing of the strong solo codexes would need to be done afterwards.
Swampmist wrote: Oh, sorry, got confused there . Honestly, I wish they would just do away with the BBs sharing Transports and ICs all together. Possibly making Inquisitors a unit attachment for IG at that point, not sure. Would take away a ton of the issues with Imperium allies, though obviously more balancing of the strong solo codexes would need to be done afterwards.
The issue isn't BBs sharing transports and ICs, IMO.
Said this before, saying it again. The issue is this:
The ability to purchase empty transports as Fast Attack choices.
So, what your saying is, that he should give up the army he has been playing for years, simply because he wants to be competitive? Again, the fact that he should even have to CONSIDER giving up to have a chance in a competitive environment is utter fething bullhockey.
If you follow his postings throughout multiple threads it falls back on BA aren't good so I can't fight army <insert codex>. And yeah I am not arguing that is not the case because they got shafted in this release cycle (scouts still being bs3 for example).
It absolutely sucks that he can't be competitive with his favorite army.. which is why i have suggested allies to help fill in the gaps.. to which that has been refused ...
Harsh reality is what you said.. if he wants to be competitive then yeah, as unfortunate as it may be.. he needs to leave BA at home or use them as a drop pod taxi service.
IC sharing does cause problems though. Looking at you, Wolfstars, DraigoCentstars and Precision DSing Dflamers
EDIT: Grizz, sure that's reality. All the rest of us are saying is that that is NOT ok. Screw the reality, we should all be making an effort to FIX this.
Swampmist wrote: IC sharing does cause problems though. Looking at you, Wolfstars, DraigoCentstars and Precision DSing Dflamers
Wolfstars and Dragio Centstars can be fixed to an extent with the addition of Chapter Tactics to their rules. Precision DSing Dflamers is Eldar crap, so no real fix beyond a dreadsock to the player in question.
Do you know what the Auxiliary options including Land Speeders are?
Yes i am aware. The skyhammer orbital one is pretty solid. That gives a lot of utility and doesn't require your speeders to be up in someones face. The raptor wing is also pretty solid. Have a scout unit outflank a speeder with multimetas have the talons fly on from wherever, and wipe out some backfield armor. Seems good to me.
Swampmist wrote: IC sharing does cause problems though. Looking at you, Wolfstars, DraigoCentstars and Precision DSing Dflamers
EDIT: Grizz, sure that's reality. All the rest of us are saying is that that is NOT ok. Screw the reality, we should all be making an effort to FIX this.
Absolutely agree with you. It should be fixed... and hopefully with this new GW public face stuff will start getting fixed.
Do you know what the Auxiliary options including Land Speeders are?
Yes i am aware. The skyhammer orbital one is pretty solid. That gives a lot of utility and doesn't require your speeders to be up in someones face.
In order to get the benefits for it, yeah it kinda does. You have to pick a specific location on the board and in order for the speeders to get the benefits--they HAVE to be within range of that.
The raptor wing is also pretty solid. Have a scout unit outflank a speeder with multimetas have the talons fly on from wherever, and wipe out some backfield armor. Seems good to me.
So, how are you outflanking a Speeder?
If you're thinking about the Pinion Scouts doing the outflanking, it doesn't work like that. They can only act as Wayfinders for units within the Pinion itself(3x Tactical Squads, a Captain/Chaplain/named character, command squad, Devastators, or an Assault Squad) and it's a 1:1 ratio(each unit outflanking needs a scout squad).
Swampmist wrote: IC sharing does cause problems though. Looking at you, Wolfstars, DraigoCentstars and Precision DSing Dflamers
EDIT: Grizz, sure that's reality. All the rest of us are saying is that that is NOT ok. Screw the reality, we should all be making an effort to FIX this.
Absolutely agree with you. It should be fixed... and hopefully with this new GW public face stuff will start getting fixed.
Personally, I;d rather just try to get a ton of people together to make a Homebrew that doesn't utterly suck. Thinking about making a Google Doc for coordination, actually. Possibly something else, dunno what people will end up having to talk and plan...
Swampmist wrote: Yeah, sorry, we did get a bit off topic. Though, fixing the game balance would CERTAINLY go a long way to making tau more fun to play against
Putting it bluntly, until Assault is made viable again in general and until high S low AP weapons become the bane of both monsters AND vehicles again and until things like Melta or Armourbane or Haywire apply equally to MCs/GMCs/SHVs/vehicles then there isn't really a "fun" way to play against most Tau lists except cheesing out or the Tau player handicapping themselves.
Tau players can debate until they're blue in the face(no pun intended), but the simple fact is that they have access to a TON of stuff which makes them just boring to play against for most people in pick-up games.
So bringing a sensble amount of LOS blocking terrain. is wothless?
As a Tau player sticking more to a mobile list is worthless?
If i play more Krisis Suits, Avoid a FW Gunline and such stuff in addition to a well done terrain this is still a boring game?
Swinging the " We have to fix the whole game to have any chance" is a thought that works theoreticaly but it is a stupit one the moment someone looks for a actual practical way to achive something.
But Just like with the BA being basically unplayable, Tau are super strong rn and that won't change by just taking bad stuff unless you take literally NOTHING good. Tau wouldn't take much to balance, sure, but for fun value it is hard because their fun\fast stuff got nerfed, and Crisis Suits certainly are NOT underpowered. That, and they still do shooting the best out anyone (bar maybe eldar but feth eldar) and that makes a mach against many fun armies basically an auto-win for the tau, even when playing a toned-down list. So, to be perfectly frank, in my opinion the BEST (and possibly only) way to make Tau fun to play against for the weaker codexes is to rewrite the rules, or ATLEAST balance the craziest stuff the game has to offer.
No, though again I'm sorry if I brought us a bit off topic with the BA talk. Really, it may be my lack of experience, but having a good game really does come down to what you want out of a game VS what your opponent does. Tuning down a list CAN work, but I honestly have no idea how to do it for the Tau bar changing rules to make them a less "You win big or lose big" army. Also, depends on mission type, really. Maybe design some missions that force you to be in close-quarters, and in doing so make the game more fun for the both of you (possibly?)
Swampmist wrote: No, though again I'm sorry if I brought us a bit off topic with the BA talk. Really, it may be my lack of experience, but having a good game really does come down to what you want out of a game VS what your opponent does. Tuning down a list CAN work, but I honestly have no idea how to do it for the Tau bar changing rules to make them a less "You win big or lose big" army. Also, depends on mission type, really. Maybe design some missions that force you to be in close-quarters, and in doing so make the game more fun for the both of you (possibly?)
Don't feel bad you are by far not the reason it got off topic.. it was most certainly a collection of people (myself included)
Play maelstrom, and play with FSE cards. Not only do they have the core assault cards, but they also add in more assault cards for Farsight!!!! I love playing this deck its amazing.
You also have it right. having a good game doesn't really matter about which "army vs army" it comes down to the people. If both are making the game fun it doesn't matter who wins or loses.
_ghost_ wrote: So bringing a sensble amount of LOS blocking terrain. is wothless?
Yes, it is worthless when the army it's supposed to be countering doesn't give a crap.
Between weapons that ignore LOS(Seeker Missiles fired via the "Seeker" Markerlight upgrade and SMS) and much of the hardest hitting stuff being on absurdly mobile stuff to begin with(Suits with JSJ), LOS blocking terrain isn't the bane of Tau it used to be.
As a Tau player sticking more to a mobile list is worthless?
If i play more Krisis Suits, Avoid a FW Gunline and such stuff in addition to a well done terrain this is still a boring game?
Let me put it to you like this.
If I put down a Raven Guard list heavily optimized to fight Tau from Kauyon and you throw down whatever your Tau list is, and we say "Swap!"--would you?
I can almost guarantee that you would not--because even optimized to fight Tau, that Raven Guard list relies on reserves going off without a hitch, things not getting whacked by EWO, and a hundred other factors that I can't influence but the Tau player can.
Swinging the " We have to fix the whole game to have any chance" is a thought that works theoreticaly but it is a stupit one the moment someone looks for a actual practical way to achive something.
It's really not as stupid as you're making it out to be.
A) Armourbane, Melta, and other high S low AP weapons have no business being shrugged off by MCs that have FNP. These are weapons that are generally described as firing massive solid rounds and tearing through armor or highly destructive weapons that are melting through a tank's hull. They have no business being garbage against MCs/GMCs. Simply adding Fleshbane and/or Rend would go a long way towards making these kinds of things viable again beyond just gimmicky lists or fluffy lists.
and
B) Assault is not the same answer to shooty armies as it used to be. End of story. Any army that can have semi-decent Overwatch effectively neuters Assault armies.
Rather than crapping on the idea of "we have to fix the whole game to have any chance", maybe try actually swapping armies with the people you play against sometime.
With literally every unit I own (I play GK, SM, Eldar, AM) when I put it in the army I say to myself "I hope this doesn't get waxed before it gets to shoot". This includes units like Imperial knights, Wraith knights, NDK, 10 man Terminator Squads, Lemonruss battle tanks. It's not uncommon that these things actually happen.
Then there is the Riptide that every tau brings at least 2 of. One of these dying is something of a rarity. Requiring a series of terrible luck for the tau player. Wouldn't be that bad if riptides were terrible offensive units that "suck without markerlight support" like tau players say but the fact is they have great offensive output all on their own.
Want to make tau fun to paly against? Don't bring riptides...simple as that.
Important to look at that str of sch stat....which I can only imagine means strength of schedule....
Realistic to assume #1 would be the hardest schedule and something like...400? would be the weakest? I see a lot of players crushing weak ones...from the looks of it. Or am I interpreting the data wrong?
fit when their opponent brings something that they don't want to face), it seems as though we should be handing a ball peen hammer to our opponents as well.
