I am converting my Overkill (mostly squad Donatus) miniatures so they are more Kill Team appropriate. The DA is getting his weapons replaced (Sword is being switched out for a Bolter, plasma pistol is being switched out for a Xenophase Blade) and being made a Sergeant. The Iron Hands Marine is either going to get a Stalker Bolter or a regular Bolter instead of a combi-Melta. The Space Wolf is losing his Chainsword to be compliant with the Veterans rules (he has one too many CCWs and his knife is unsheathed so it stays). The others are compliant so they will go to appropriate Kill Teams. The HQs are perfectly legal, as are the VVs(though the BA is probably going to never see play) and Terminator.

I've traditionally run drop pod armies, sometimes with 80 some guys in an 1850 list, with as many as 9 drop pods.

While the number of bodies is good, the humble bolter is best en masse and against soft targets. I've always wished I could throw extra special weapons on my tactical squads.

So we have Sternguard/DWVets. Sternguard were always decent on the drop, but because of their cost I've always thought they were a suicide squad. Especially since they couldn't hold/contest an objective. Since they were still ordinary marines, they die just the same and since you couldn't take a lot of them, due to the objective holding restriction, you were in trouble.

But...with Pedro and now the DW rules, you can have obsec objective holders. With powerful, mobile heavy weapons. A 10 man squad with 2 heavy weapons and a couple of special weapons (meltas), coupled with the special ammo is a great drop squad. You can split them into 2 squads and have a reasonable chance to wipe out a larger squad, vehicle etc, especially with a str 8 melta shot and 2 str 9 frag shots. ( I only am putting 2 frag cannons in a 10 man squad due to points)/template shots and the poisoned rounds or vengeance rounds. Don't count out the effectiveness of the special ammo, with all the special weapons available it is tempting to spend points on them when you don't need to.

Kill teams are more powerful, but they limit your use of drop pods, they aren't obsec and you won't be able to split the squad.

I want to drop around 30 marines onto the enemies side, preferably where I can gang up on part of his army, and where he will have a hard time counter attacking me. This is where drop pods are great, while you can shoot through them ( which I have always thought was iffy) they prevent most enemies from getting to you.

In my 1850 list this leaves me with 3 5 man squads, and some points leftover. the 3 5 man squads are objective holders. One is actually a 7 man squad, with the libby attached, and 4 frag cannons. It's job is to drop and erase a squad, and hold onto a major objective.

This leaves with around 100 or so points. I could add more guys to some of the camping squads, but I think a unit of bikers held in reserve would be a great choice. They are mobile, twin linked and can use special ammo. They can effectively clear anyone who has strayed into my backfield ( in conjunction with the other camping squads. )

My list is one that I came up with and similar to one that Reecius at Frontline Gaming used at Adepticon to great effect. His list, as he put it, was designed to fight the meta ( anti Eldar), and was good at killing infantry and weak against armor. The main differences between his list and mine is that I don't have Pedro, and a 4 frag cannon unit in place of GravCents, is 1 unit less in terms of the main force, no melta bike, and no culexus ( though I could have the latter instead of the bikes). My list has anti armor in the form of frag cannons and melta, and while I am one unit less, all my units have obsec except the bikers.

In place of the bikers, I could add some hth elements, though I don't think they are needed. I could add some more shooters, or special weapons. I could add the culexus, or an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor.

Now I just need the darn frag cannons to come in !

So, wording. Possible interesting oversight on page 91 for the Aquila kill team.

The special rule states that they can re roll any to wound rolls and AP rolls of 1.

So... Do they get to re roll AP rolls of one, as well as -any- to wound roll? The literal interpretation could go that way, but I'm liking the possibility even if it's just a grammatical oversight.

I'm not sure what's confusing there, they can reroll any to wound rolls of one, and any armor pen rolls of 1.

SBG wrote:
So, wording. Possible interesting oversight on page 91 for the Aquila kill team.

The special rule states that they can re roll any to wound rolls and AP rolls of 1.

So... Do they get to re roll AP rolls of one, as well as -any- to wound roll? The literal interpretation could go that way, but I'm liking the possibility even if it's just a grammatical oversight.

No there'd be a comma after the first "rolls" indicating a separate clause. This is all one piece of information.

 HANZERtank wrote:

SBG wrote:
So, wording. Possible interesting oversight on page 91 for the Aquila kill team.

The special rule states that they can re roll any to wound rolls and AP rolls of 1.

So... Do they get to re roll AP rolls of one, as well as -any- to wound roll? The literal interpretation could go that way, but I'm liking the possibility even if it's just a grammatical oversight.

No there'd be a comma after the first "rolls" indicating a separate clause. This is all one piece of information.

Debatably, no. In a list, a comma before the final item's "and" is called an Oxford Comma. There's quite a debate on whether or not it should even be a rhing. In this instance it would be helpful as a default mechanism for determining the intent here, bit I doubt that GW would be particularly careful on the grammar and syntax front here when they never have before.

I see what you mean, ideally it would read like this I think.

"Reroll to wound rolls and armour penetration rolls, of a 1"

One thing that got brought up ive seen is why you would ever buy a combi melta for a veteran when a melta coststhe same and has unlimited shots. This isusing the swap your ccw for a bolter, and then one of your bolters for a special weapon.

I'm wondering if a Xenophase Blade is worth it on a Watch Sergeant or if I should just go with a Lightning Claw instead.

Gree wrote:
I'm wondering if a Xenophase Blade is worth it on a Watch Sergeant or if I should just go with a Lightning Claw instead.

Not worth it.

Yeah, DW, are bad in melee imo, too expensive for a bunch of T4 W1 3++ save models (for a storm shield and Lclaw or other power wep, it's 47ppm, and it only gets worse from there in terms of points). If you had to have a melee weapon on your watch sgt, I'd go with the Lclaw because it has shred.

I dunno, I like the Xenophase Blade. Making stuff reroll their Invulnerable is quite potent.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I dunno, I like the Xenophase Blade. Making stuff reroll their Invulnerable is quite potent.

I like it too though I'm finding that scoring wounds isn't super reliable and it does nothing to 2+ saves. If it were ap2 it would be a true winner. As is I take one just bc it looks cool.

It looks like a Mogu sword from Mists of Pandaria.

"And the Monkey King is blown away!"

SJ

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I dunno, I like the Xenophase Blade. Making stuff reroll their Invulnerable is quite potent.

It really isn't with strength 4. You're basically doubling your chances of getting the wound through the invulnerable save, but there are weapons which double (or triple) your chances of wounding, such as lightning claw and powerfist, and those work against all opponents, not only those with invulnerable saves.

Hmmm. In that case I might decide against taking as many Xenophase blades as I currently have planned.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 ChaosDad wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


Not enough model count, and foot slogging marines will get ripped apart fast.

Well, the formation rules gives everything deep strike, so I'm not sure how much footslogging there will be...
What do you suggest?

Landraiders? Drop Pods?

So they gonna come down on a warp spider or scatter bike spam army and kill maybe 2-3 units and then get picked part as they footslog.

The best suggestion is don't waste too much money to make a All DW army, rather use them as allied support

Yes, even tthe Eldar cannot picked them apart, the Eldar units that survived the alpha strike can easily run away from them and regroup, with their high mobility.
Or if they facing Tau, they will get shreded by 12 S7 and 12 S5 interceptor missiles before they can even fire a shot.
Or if they are facing Necrons, they landed in and fired all their shots but only killed a single wraith in the harvest formation or a couple of Necron Warriors, then got tied up by scarab swarms supportted by the spider for the rest of the game.

It is hard to make a pure DW either MSU type list or Deathstar / superfriend type list, they are mainly just normal foot slog marines with more shining toys and a few buffs in offensive powers, where the other top tier armies like Eldar, Tau, Necrons or Daemons just don't care.

On the other hand, if playing a Fun / casaul - semi competitive game, an ally of DW should be both ok-ish powerful and fun, since most of their new toys are coooool It is just a shame that a T4, W1, 3+ or 2+/5++ that costs 22pts (40pts for the later one) that only moves 6 inches at most cannot be qualified as good platform in the current meta.

So Watch Sergeants. What is everyone going to put on them? A Combi-Weapon seems like a better choice than a Melee weapon.

You don't actually need to take a Sergeant in a Vet squad.

I would only take the upgrade if you need a challenge magnet.

 Selym wrote:
You don't actually need to take a Sergeant in a Vet squad.

I would only take the upgrade if you need a challenge magnet.

So then just a regular Boltgun for the Boltgun squads and a Stalker Boltgun for my Stalker Boltgun squad. I will think if I need a Challenge magnet or not.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So Watch Sergeants. What is everyone going to put on them? A Combi-Weapon seems like a better choice than a Melee weapon.

Combi-Plasma and Lightning Claw, just like how I run my Tactical Squad Sergeants. Serve as challenge magnet for the Librarian in my squad.

Hey guys, any of you had mich luck using storm bolters on veteran squads. Doublesthe damage output at longer ranges for only 5ppm.

The other one is bikes, thinking of using them as a fast flanking force with power weapons and twin linked bolters.

 HANZERtank wrote:
Hey guys, any of you had mich luck using storm bolters on veteran squads. Doublesthe damage output at longer ranges for only 5ppm.

The other one is bikes, thinking of using them as a fast flanking force with power weapons and twin linked bolters.

They are a terrible choice since you don't get special issue ammunition.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
Hey guys, any of you had mich luck using storm bolters on veteran squads. Doublesthe damage output at longer ranges for only 5ppm.

The other one is bikes, thinking of using them as a fast flanking force with power weapons and twin linked bolters.

They are a terrible choice since you don't get special issue ammunition.

Which is one of the real head-scratchers. Would make termies that little bit better.

 Blacksails wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
Hey guys, any of you had mich luck using storm bolters on veteran squads. Doublesthe damage output at longer ranges for only 5ppm.

The other one is bikes, thinking of using them as a fast flanking force with power weapons and twin linked bolters.

They are a terrible choice since you don't get special issue ammunition.

Which is one of the real head-scratchers. Would make termies that little bit better.

Yeah. I was really hoping they'd give their Termis that boost. Disappointed with them in general actually. Was hoping to be able to mix their kit a bit more than they allow.

It just continues to baffle me. Its been a personal proposal/theoretical house rule of mine since 5th that termies (being vets) get access to the same ammo sternguard do.

Bah, as long as they don't FAQ the weapon swapping thing so I can have a shotgun and stalker toting squad, I'm mostly happy.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So Watch Sergeants. What is everyone going to put on them? A Combi-Weapon seems like a better choice than a Melee weapon.

Melta bombs. Maybe. Possibly an auspex, but we have Special Issue Ammo that ignores cover, so probably not even that.

 Blacksails wrote:
It just continues to baffle me. Its been a personal proposal/theoretical house rule of mine since 5th that termies (being vets) get access to the same ammo sternguard do.

Bah, as long as they don't FAQ the weapon swapping thing so I can have a shotgun and stalker toting squad, I'm mostly happy.

You can have a stalker and bolter, or shotgun and bolter, but not stalker and shotgun as now you're trading optional wargear you've "bought" for more wargear

 Wolfblade wrote:

You can have a stalker and bolter, or shotgun and bolter, but not stalker and shotgun as now you're trading optional wargear you've "bought" for more wargear

Which you can do. Or if you can't Space Marine bikers can't have special weapons.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
It just continues to baffle me. Its been a personal proposal/theoretical house rule of mine since 5th that termies (being vets) get access to the same ammo sternguard do.

Bah, as long as they don't FAQ the weapon swapping thing so I can have a shotgun and stalker toting squad, I'm mostly happy.

You can have a stalker and bolter, or shotgun and bolter, but not stalker and shotgun as now you're trading optional wargear you've "bought" for more wargear

Is there a rule preventing this? I haven't found any explicitly stating as such, hence why people are wary about it, but going ahead anyways until GW says otherwise via FAQ.

 Crimson wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

You can have a stalker and bolter, or shotgun and bolter, but not stalker and shotgun as now you're trading optional wargear you've "bought" for more wargear

Which you can do. Or if you can't Space Marine bikers can't have special weapons.

That's really an errata fix, otherwise it falls into a grey area of "can you exchange bought wargear for more wargear", as nothing prohibits it or allows you to exchange wargear like that (as HIWPI/my interpretation of RAI is you can't do multiple exchanges of wargear like that)

 Blacksails wrote:

Is there a rule preventing this? I haven't found any explicitly stating as such, hence why people are wary about it, but going ahead anyways until GW says otherwise via FAQ.

It's a bit of a grey area, there's nothing telling you that you can or can't exchange the chainsword for the bolter, then the bolter for whatever.

 Wolfblade wrote:

It's a bit of a grey area, there's nothing telling you that you can or can't exchange the chainsword for the bolter, then the bolter for whatever,

Exactly, so until its clarified, I, like many others I imagine, will make some squads with stalkers or bolters and shotguns.

Yeah, I think (hope) bolters and shotguns will remain legal, but I doubt stalkers AND shotguns will, mostly because I don't think they intended for that type of interaction in the wargear section.

 Wolfblade wrote:
Yeah, I think (hope) bolters and shotguns will remain legal, but I doubt stalkers AND shotguns will, mostly because I don't think they intended for that type of interaction in the wargear section.

I really hope stalkers and shotguns remain legal. It'd be a fun and cheap way to load out a squad for a variety of targets. Plus the modelling opportunities would be cool.

Yeah, but I don't think it fits the RAI judging by other rulings (i.e. apoth not being able to take any vet upgrades, even though those are listed before the upgrade to apoth)

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

You can have a stalker and bolter, or shotgun and bolter, but not stalker and shotgun as now you're trading optional wargear you've "bought" for more wargear

Which you can do. Or if you can't Space Marine bikers can't have special weapons.

That's really an errata fix, otherwise it falls into a grey area of "can you exchange bought wargear for more wargear", as nothing prohibits it or allows you to exchange wargear like that (as HIWPI/my interpretation of RAI is you can't do multiple exchanges of wargear like that)

No. Look at the biker entry at the current marine codex. It is right there.

Yeah, they have never stated an order of operations for things occurring, just that certain things prevent you from meeting the requirements of other swaps. No reason to think you can't swap and then swap.

 Crimson wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

You can have a stalker and bolter, or shotgun and bolter, but not stalker and shotgun as now you're trading optional wargear you've "bought" for more wargear

Which you can do. Or if you can't Space Marine bikers can't have special weapons.

That's really an errata fix, otherwise it falls into a grey area of "can you exchange bought wargear for more wargear", as nothing prohibits it or allows you to exchange wargear like that (as HIWPI/my interpretation of RAI is you can't do multiple exchanges of wargear like that)

No. Look at the biker entry at the current marine codex. It is right there.

Right, and that seems more like it requires an errata to add bolt pistols there. Otherwise it falls into the grey area of nothing granting permission to swap wargear, then swap wargear again.

Dumb rules question because it's been too long - does a Gargantuan Creature get wounded on a 2+ with Hellfire rounds? What about with a Stalker bolter shooting the same rounds, does Sniper and Fleshbane counter act?


Edit: Wait, it's Poisoned 2+ instead of Fleshbane, duh. It's always a 6+ against GCs.

I made my first squad. (Pictures here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/408416.page#8866144)

Two extra guys.
Three frag cannons.
Two storm shields (in the front to protect the expensive cannons.)
Sergeant with a powerfist and auspex (not optimal, I know, but I wanted to give him a melee weapon, and I hate lightning claws on PA marines, so...)

These will probably be joined by a Librarian, to make the squad aquila complinat (I made two librarians and two inquisitors to boost my squads.)

I will probably add one more bolter guy and one frag cannon once I get more bits. That will make it ten models with the librarian included.

Still not sure about the transport. Drop pod probably... though I hate building and painting those.


I also plan making a sniper squad. (I only could build one stalker guy, I ordered more stalker bolters. They can't get here soon enough.)
I also want to build a melee squad, as sub-optimal as that might be.

So I am clear, a Black Shield can take melee, ranged, special weapons, storm shield or heavy thunder hammer, right?

They just can't get the Watch Sergeant gear.

 kronk wrote:
So I am clear, a Black Shield can take melee, ranged, special weapons, storm shield or heavy thunder hammer, right?

They just can't get the Watch Sergeant gear.

They can take anything but Sgt wargear, heavy weapons, and the HTH as that specifies veterans only.

So, who is taking HTH's in their teams?

I am on a VV for Kill Team games - fast moving thwacking sticks can be pretty handy, even if it is at I1.

 Selym wrote:
So, who is taking HTH's in their teams?

I am on a VV for Kill Team games - fast moving thwacking sticks can be pretty handy, even if it is at I1.

I am only taking them on VVs. They need the mobility. I think if I were to make full VV squads, the other three members would have Storm Shields to take the impact from earlier attacks and then let the HTH do their work. I currently have two VV HTH attached to my Aquila and Dominatus Kill teams.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 kronk wrote:
So I am clear, a Black Shield can take melee, ranged, special weapons, storm shield or heavy thunder hammer, right?

They just can't get the Watch Sergeant gear.

They can take anything but Sgt wargear, heavy weapons, and the HTH as that specifies veterans only.

Thank you.

 kronk wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 kronk wrote:
So I am clear, a Black Shield can take melee, ranged, special weapons, storm shield or heavy thunder hammer, right?

They just can't get the Watch Sergeant gear.

They can take anything but Sgt wargear, heavy weapons, and the HTH as that specifies veterans only.

Thank you.

No problem. It's a little silly that black shields can't get HTHs, being the melee specialist in the group. (or for that matter, being locked to vets only)

 Blacksails wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

It's a bit of a grey area, there's nothing telling you that you can or can't exchange the chainsword for the bolter, then the bolter for whatever,

Exactly, so until its clarified, I, like many others I imagine, will make some squads with stalkers or bolters and shotguns.

I wouldn't, however, model any of them carrying both. Don't want to spend that extra modelling effort just to have it negated (potentially) by a single sentence from GW.

I am just failing to see where the assumption that you can't is coming from. You have always been able to do these sorts of things in the past, it just never offered a clear advantage so no one said anything. Now that it suddenly might be useful everyone acts as if it is not going to work.

 Leth wrote:
I am just failing to see where the assumption that you can't is coming from. You have always been able to do these sorts of things in the past, it just never offered a clear advantage so no one said anything. Now that it suddenly might be useful everyone acts as if it is not going to work.

40k is a permissive rule set, if you're not told you can, you can't do it. (in this case you're told you can trade your bolter out, but there's nothing saying you can trade your bolter out after trading a chainsword for the bolter)

it gives you permission to swap x for y. Why would it matter if you swap z for x first, then X to y. You are given permission to do both.

 Leth wrote:
it gives you permission to swap x for y. Why would it matter if you swap z for x first, then X to y. You are given permission to do both.

Because there is no order of operations specified for buying wargear, and again, there's nothing saying you may swap the "purchased" bolter for something (compared to say, something allowing a captain to swap his storm bolter after getting termie armor)

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Leth wrote:
it gives you permission to swap x for y. Why would it matter if you swap z for x first, then X to y. You are given permission to do both.

Because there is no order of operations specified for buying wargear, and again, there's nothing saying you may swap the "purchased" bolter for something (compared to say, something allowing a captain to swap his storm bolter after getting termie armor)

Where does it say there is a rules difference between a purchased bolter and a regular bolter? As far as the rules are concerned a bolter is a bolter.

 Leth wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Leth wrote:
it gives you permission to swap x for y. Why would it matter if you swap z for x first, then X to y. You are given permission to do both.

Because there is no order of operations specified for buying wargear, and again, there's nothing saying you may swap the "purchased" bolter for something (compared to say, something allowing a captain to swap his storm bolter after getting termie armor)

Where does it say there is a rules difference between a purchased bolter and a regular bolter? As far as the rules are concerned a bolter is a bolter.

Where does it say you can swap wargear for more wargear like that? Normally it has to give explicit permission (i.e. buying termie armor, then swapping the storm bolter or power weapon)

Hey guys, gals and thunderhawk gunships (or however you identify)

As per my original promise in the OP, I went and combed through everything talked about here and updated the OP with those ideas, as a compendium for ease of access for all of us and new users.

----------

Just quickly, I think theres been enough discussion on the swapping wargear mallarcky. No-one is agreeing on anything. I'm in the camp that you swap wargear once, not multiple times, 40k is written in such a way that if there is no rule saying you can do it, you cant.

Regardless, I think it's down to asking your opponent/store manage/club manager/event organiser for a ruling and working with it until/IF we get an FAQ from GW.

So let's move on to more useful discussions shall we?

----------

I'd love to know more about allies. It's what I didn't have much to write down on the OP and I know it's going to be a common question.

Are you going to use Deathwatch as allies? If so you're going to use killteams right? build them up and nuke their specific targets?

What are you going to take with your Deathwatch main force? I was thinking IG with max priests for rerollable armour saves on my deathwatch deathstars.

------------

Cheers all,

Qwerty

Qwerty2jam wrote:


I'd love to know more about allies. It's what I didn't have much to write down on the OP and I know it's going to be a common question.

Are you going to use Deathwatch as allies? If so you're going to use killteams right? build them up and nuke their specific targets?

What are you going to take with your Deathwatch main force? I was thinking IG with max priests for rerollable armour saves on my deathwatch deathstars.

I'm looking at running an Aquila Kill-Team formation, probably with a Librarian and 4x Frag Cannons in a drop pod. It gives my Black Templars a fluffy-ally with psychic powers (and 2 extra dice to block opponent's powers), something to kill/injure GMC's, and they all look cool.

 Leth wrote:
I am just failing to see where the assumption that you can't is coming from. You have always been able to do these sorts of things in the past, it just never offered a clear advantage so no one said anything. Now that it suddenly might be useful everyone acts as if it is not going to work.

It possibly comes from past experience. You could not, in fact, "always ... do these sorts of things in the past", as there was a time when there were specific limits on how many and what kinds of weapons a model could carry. Much of that tradition still makes its way into GW's list writing, even though it's rarely an actual rule anymore and mostly remains just that: tradition.

So, yeah, generally speaking, the idea of an infantry model only carrying one main gun (not counting pistols) is one of those things that's been around awhile and probably just taken for granted at this point.

When I said past, I meant in this edition. They even released a specific errata to a unit entry saying they may swap X. The only reason for this was that X could be swapped for y.

Anyway it's a circular argument.

The main unit I am currently looking at is a Aquila with 4 veterans, a frag cannon, and a biker. This gives split fire for the squad to fire off the frag cannon elsewhere. Not bad for 165 points.

Another option depending on allies was a Aquila stalker squad with a cataphracti captain from space marines, however I think he is better spent on a squad from his own army, benefits of chapter tactics as well as other faction specific bonuses.

Strongly considering raptors tactics to go along with the deathwatch as it is durable on turn one while also having rending bolters to help against a bunch of targets.

So, with all the rerolls the Kill Teams get, can we all agree to save points by not buying digital weapons?

Also, I have been building lists all day of DW allied with my Inquisition henchmen (which were already supposed to be allies to my Grey Knights). Does anyone else have narrative problems with putting DW and GK in the same army? Because I have so many GK models and it seems like tactically they would be a good fit. DW gets access to drop pods, better shooting, and better fliers than the GK. Or does the highly elite, low model count DW need more bodies instead?

Anyway, here's a list I want to try soon:

++Black Spear Strike Force++
-Watch Master (librarian in lower points games)
-Dreadnought in a drop pod with teleport beacon
-Aquila or Furor KT
-- mix of frag cannons and bolters
-- THSS terminator
-- Maybe another librarian or biker

Spam enough Inquisitors with psykers and bolter acolytes in razorbacks to fill points. Heavy weapon servitors for some more firepower.

The one drop pod comes in on Turn 1 to wreck a transport or other big threat. Transports rush to objectives and pop smoke or drop off passengers. Turn 2 (hopefully; Inq has plenty of tricks to get better reserve rolls) the KT teleports in near the DP homer or maybe a servo-skull. Meanwhile, the MSU henchmen are claiming objectives, distracting bigger units, or placing opportunistic meltabombs.

So what is the verdict on the Infernus Heavy Bolter. It actually seems pretty cool, but it is pretty expensive. In terms of offense, it has sizeable range at 36", and is an assault weapon so the unit can charge afterward. The template helps with Ignores Cover and makes units charging take a second thought since Wall of Death. The problem is, where one can take these, they can take a Frag Cannon and get a bit more out of it at the small cost of five points more.

Pretty much. As cool as it is thematically (And I've been wanting a weapon like that for some time) The Frag Cannon just invalidates it.

Would have been cool to get a DW Heavy weapon option that didn't overlap design space with the Frag Cannon so much.

A Special issue Missile launcher with Rad, Stasis missiles etc would have been really cool.

 Eldarain wrote:
Pretty much. As cool as it is thematically (And I've been wanting a weapon like that for some time) The Frag Cannon just invalidates it.

Would have been cool to get a DW Heavy weapon option that didn't overlap design space with the Frag Cannon so much.

A Special issue Missile launcher with Rad, Stasis missiles etc would have been really cool.

A long range weapon would be cool. Like a Veteran support squad that rains down hell from far away in support from their brothers. A ML with Special Issue Missiles would be awesome!

How about Variable Speed Lascannons. They can reduce their range down by 12" increments. At 36" they become Str 10. At 24" they become Str D. Or maybe give them something like the Xenophase Blade, where targets have to reroll their Invulnerable saves.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Pretty much. As cool as it is thematically (And I've been wanting a weapon like that for some time) The Frag Cannon just invalidates it.

Would have been cool to get a DW Heavy weapon option that didn't overlap design space with the Frag Cannon so much.

A Special issue Missile launcher with Rad, Stasis missiles etc would have been really cool.

A long range weapon would be cool. Like a Veteran support squad that rains down hell from far away in support from their brothers. A ML with Special Issue Missiles would be awesome!

How about Variable Speed Lascannons. They can reduce their range down by 12" increments. At 36" they become Str 10. At 24" they become Str D. Or maybe give them something like the Xenophase Blade, where targets have to reroll their Invulnerable saves.

That would be really cool too. Both ideas hold with the DW's theme of adaptability and having different options turn to turn.

So, after tons of brain storming and trying to fill the gaps I believe that the answer to a lot of the deathwatch issues lies in a combination of the new psychic disciplines and lots of psykers.

Deathwatch can deal with a lot of targets but with a solid best,net in psykers you can adjust based on what you are facing. Personally I find that the not needing LOS power really solves almost all of he problems I have with a full 10 man stalker unit.

Facing Knights? Go deep in the electric tree, I mean there are three to four powers that just remove hull points and it is before they get to reposition their shields. I think however taking the librarians from the deathwatch is in general going to be a disadvantage and would look to the conclave or other groups of psykers to get them in.

I was seriously considering as my three sources a black spear force. A conclave, and a psykana division or a second conclave depending on what resources are available. A psykana division(although it sickens me to think about it) could really bolster the low model count with tons of daemon summoning.

Edit:

Okay found a new list that I love. Black spear force combined with sky hammer annihilation force. Beacon doesn't require being on the table at the start of the turn. Take a kill team in a drop pod with watch captain attached deep strike them in first, have annihilation come in second. I am taking them with ultra marines for the reroll hits. No scatter, solid force on the table. They reserve? Take a drop pod dread as forced auxiliary and aim to come in with nearly everything second turn(depending on rolls).

Can't wait to try it out. If you go first I can't think of many death stars that could survive this kind of fire power so many templates!

I'm considering deploying a DW army alongside a force of grey knights... (Maybe toss a cheapo inqusitor in just to be fluffy) think it'd work?

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm considering deploying a DW army alongside a force of grey knights... (Maybe toss a cheapo inqusitor in just to be fluffy) think it'd work?

Is the thought that two Intended-As-Allies codexes will somehow form a cohesive and functional army? I am curious how this plays out, to be honest. Post results when you have some.

Leth I'm fairly with you on your idea, every killteam I've built for my pure DW army has a transport load of 9, so I honestly think I'm going to spend the extra points and upgrade each team to a strategum killteam with a ML1/2 psyker with technomancy. One of my constant opponents is a KDK with soulgrinders and hellturkeys, this could cause him serious problems and I can always fish for invisibility if I'm not versing many vehicles.

--------------------

Now as to the Infernus Heavy Bolter I think we're maybe all missing something that I only clicked on to just recently. I believe it has a place, but only if you've already taken a few Deathwatch Frag Cannons.....hear me out.

The Deathwatch Frag Cannon's strength, AP and impact rule make it great for elite and light vehicle hunting....we all know this, in my army I currently have 4 at 1000pts because of their versitility.

However at larger point ranges your opponents are going to start including more and more of their big toys. Riptides, Knights bigger tanks, nasty deathstars etc. All of this really needs to be focused down on by your frag cannons (and due to their operational range, likely our ap3 special ammo shots too).

I know at 1500+ my frag cannon squads are not going to have time to waste those precious shots at troops, be that space marines or fire warriors. That squads lifetime is a valuable commodity not to be wasted.

So I start looking at the alternative to hit those troops while I'm at it and I realised I'm going to need two things I thought I would basically throw in the bits box to gather dust.

Stalker Pattern Bolters and Infernus Heavy Bolters

30" range bolters, 36" ap 4 to outrange even tau, ignores cover to aggrivate orks or nids or any chumps camping terrain, and ap3 at standard bolter range.....all at 2 shots. Sure it may not be the most monstrous thing in the game, sure you have to stay still to use it, but at that range that's not a hinderance to me, weapon swapping on veterans says I can take one of these and a normal bolter for when I move anyway....all for 5 measly points a model.

Throw in an assault 3, 36" heavy bolter, to give what we really lack which is numbers (number of shots, not bodies obviously ) and if I want a poison 2+ blast to deal with blobs or stupid things like TWC or wraithblades, anything with high toughness.

This squad is equiped to deal with practically ever troop in the game. Sure against terminators they may not do great. Sure against GMC or vehicles they are going to get stomped on (often quite literally) and sure the bits are going to be a pain to get for it. However this squad will completely excel at 1 thing. Whiping one of your enemies troop choices of the board pretty much every turn (Your results may vary, but you get the point).

As a side note, throw in a bike, so if your opponent MSU's your shots aren't wasted on overkill. Additionally, wall of death, that is all.

-------------------------

As to joining with grey knights it will be super cool and fluffy, it will basically work exactly as a pure force of one or the other would just with a few more weakenesses plugged. You're still going to have somewhere between jack and squat models on the board but they will excell at what they do. Take the GK to hit things, take the DW to shoot things, march your GK up the board in their big draigostar, suicide squad some droppod DW to distract and soften, eat a nice steak carefully seasoned to pair with your tall glass of your enemies tears.

--------------------

Okay I think that's more than enough hyperbole from me.

Cheers all,

Qwerty

Qwerty2jam wrote:


As to joining with grey knights it will be super cool and fluffy, it will basically work exactly as a pure force of one or the other would just with a few more weakenesses plugged. You're still going to have somewhere between jack and squat models on the board but they will excell at what they do. Take the GK to hit things, take the DW to shoot things, march your GK up the board in their big draigostar, suicide squad some droppod DW to distract and soften, eat a nice steak carefully seasoned to pair with your tall glass of your enemies tears.

yeah that's kinda what I suspected would be the case, I was leaning towards a small Nemisis strike force detachment mostly. unit of termies, a libby and maybe if I can squeeze it in a dreadknight. something to charge in and play havok with my enemies line during the first few turns.

So I've been poking around and seeing quite a few lists look something like this:

Watch Company

Captain/Artemis

4x Aquila Kill Teams
- Stalker Kill Teams x2
- Frag Cannon/Drop Pod Kill Teams x2

Skyhammer Annihilation Force

2x Assault Squads

2x Devastator Squads
- 4x Grav Cannon
- 4x Multi-Melta

After that you've usually got about 300-500pts left to fill in. Now some lists are going for Psyker overload, but multi-wound Power Armor Psykers are generally going to cost as much as a squad of guys, and wont help your MSU.

Additionally these lists are often relying on a Dread, and maybe 1-2 Stalker Pattern Bolter Kill Teams to survive Turn 1.

The problem there is you've got to face other lists which also will be trying to Alpha Strike. White Scars will be crossing the board and throwing enough Bolter shots your way that there's no way that 10-20 veterans and a Dreadnought will survive, especially outside of vehicles so they aren't penalized for moving while they rock a Heavy Weapon loadout.

My own personal solution was allying 3 Henchmen Warband squads from the Inquisition. 1 Psyker and 4 Acolytes inside a Razorback can go from 60-90pts, and provide Warp Charges as well as Wounds and Hull Points.

TL;DR - Make sure you have enough to survive an opponent Alpha Strike if you're bringing a Skyhammer Annihilation Force with your Black Spear Strike Force or Watch Company.

I'm thinking of biting and buying into this release after reading through the codex. I'm trying to plug the obvious gaps in the units available with Space Marine allies, and as I have not been a SM player before I'd appreciate your input.
Here's a list of obvious problems, and possible ways I'm thinking SM could fill the gaps in the codex:

1) No cheap troops to camp out on objectives/no objectives secured. Solution? SM sniper scouts deployed in the backfield, taking pot shots at anything that comes too close and holding objectives. If you lose them, oh well, they're fairly cheap, and they may just kill something.

2) No reliable long range shooting. Solution? SM Devastators with grav cannons or las cannons? Also possibly SM tanks/artillery (Not too sure which ones)

3) Other than Corvus Blackstar no AA. Solution? SM flyer. (Not sure which one)

I'm sorry I'm not very specific, I don't own the SM codex, but I'd like to hear your suggestions for making SM allies work. What chapter would you take? Formations etc?

Thanks!

So I think one of the difficult things about deathwatch is that a powerful build will vary 100% based on the mission structure being played.

No kill points and multiple sources. CAD MSU spam all the way.

OS not important? Black spear + Skyhammer alpha strike.

So on and so forth. I can't see a generalist take all comers list being made that will consistently be successful without knowing the basic mission structure of the games being played.

Aquilla
-6x Vets (Bolter+Shotgun)
-2x Terminators
-Drop pod

225 pts

Add special/heavies to taste. Keep under 275 pts. Field 3-4 for a group of solid core flexible units. At 40 pts a head, terminators are extremely cheap ways to get a powerfist and a 2+ save in a squad.

Examples;

-6x Vets
--3x Flamer
-2x Terminators
--2x HF
-DP

250 pts

-6x Vets
--2x Melta
-2x Terminators
--1x CML
-DP

270 pts

-6x Vets
-2x Terminators
--2x AC
-DP

265 pts

etc. etc.

On the topic of DW combining with Grey Knights, this is the army I'm using tomorrow night in a friendly game with a couple of mates.

Not competitive but packs alot of psykic dice and should do some damage on the drop. The inquisitors and their retinues help add a few numbers ;-)


Inquisitoral Detachment
1 Ordo Malleus Inquisitor Terminator Armour, Psycannon, ML:1 110
1 Ordo Xenos Inquisitor Power Armour, ML:1, 3 Servo Skulls 72
10 Henchmen 2 Crusaders, 3 Acolyte - Plasmagun, 1 Psyker, 1 Priest, 2 Death Cult Assassins, 1 Jokero 177
1 Chimera 55
11 Henchmen 3 Servitor - Multimelta, 1 Jokero, 1 Acolyte - Boltgun, 6 Acolytes 94
1 Chimera 55
6 Henchmen 5 Acolytes - Boltguns, 1 Acolyte 29
1 Chimera 55
Grey Knight Nemesis Strike Force
1 Librarian ML:3, Curass of Sacrifice 155
5 Terminators Psycannon, Daemon Hammer, 3x Halberd 201
1 Dreadknight Personal Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator, Gatling Psilencer, Great Sword 220
1 Dreadknight Heavy Psycannon, Personal Teleporter 195
Deathwatch Aquila Kill Team
1 Librarian ML:2, Terminator, Auspex, Meltabomb, Tome of Ectoclades 135
1 Terminator Heavy Flamer, Meltagun 60
6 Veterans Srg, Combi-Melta, 2x Frag Cannon, 1x Storm Shield, 4x Shotgun 202
1 Droppod 35
Officio Assassinorum
1 Vindicare Assassin 150

Total= 2000

on a slightly related topic, can anyone suggest a good place to pick up peices to make a custom inqusitor?

BrianDavion wrote:
on a slightly related topic, can anyone suggest a good place to pick up peices to make a custom inqusitor?

I wanted a Inquisitor in TDA so started with a grey Knight base. then added interesting bitz from various kits. Space Wolf Cloak, converted psycannon, an Inquisition shoulder pad (easier to get hold of now) and then just a few "-I-" modelled on. You can source most bitz from the various sellers on ebay or standard bitz stores like Bitzbox/bitzandKits etc...

Here's mine:

So i'm no deathwatch player, but thinking of including a small allied detachment of them. I'll throw out a handy tip for prospective DW players though, I regularly use Lias Issodon, a Forgeworld SM character who brings a heap of perks, especially for any armies that revolve around reserves. He also fits the DW theme perfectly, as he comes with special ammo stock. His rules are free from the FW website, but in short he comes with master of ambush warlord trait stock, shrouding, re-roll reserve rolls, -1 to enemy reserves and a special sneak attack before the game starts. I sometimes bring a fun list including him, which is based around Lias & loads of legion of the damned deep striking in, so not too far away from what allot of DW armies will probably look like, elite infantry dropping in from reserves.

Anyways hope that helps someone, Lias & two min scout squads, for 285 points total, will add allot to any DW army imo.

On to my question then, so I was gonna take a DW librarian with the Dominus Aegis & a small, bog standard vet squad. The DW Libby role would be to help protect a librarius conclave that I run, stick him in with them, Lias (he comes with shrouding) and roll up on invisibility or Sanctuary+Veil of time with the conclave, to help keep them alive. I don't particularly move the conclave as they are around for support, so for 225pts total, i'd be buying a sternguard squad essentially and a level two libby with the dominus.

Kind of on the fence about it though, a cheaper alternative would be to buy a SM command squad with stormshields & apoth, but the DW route on the other hand gets you extra psychic dice & a 4++ for everyone.

Any thoughts for someone interested in shamelessly plugging the DW codex for one relic?

Does anyone know whether we're allowed to sub out the DW Dreadnoughts for Contemptor ones? Similar to Angels of Death, where normal Spess Mehreens can do the same.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Does anyone know whether we're allowed to sub out the DW Dreadnoughts for Contemptor ones? Similar to Angels of Death, where normal Spess Mehreens can do the same.

Currently, I haven't seen anything that indicates we can. I have hope for the future, but right now, doesn't look like it.

BossJakadakk wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Does anyone know whether we're allowed to sub out the DW Dreadnoughts for Contemptor ones? Similar to Angels of Death, where normal Spess Mehreens can do the same.

Currently, I haven't seen anything that indicates we can. I have hope for the future, but right now, doesn't look like it.

That's the impression I was under, as well.

I'd love to swap the Corvus out for a Dread, especially a melee one, but we seem to be lacking in the non-shooty dreadnought department.

BrianDavion wrote:
on a slightly related topic, can anyone suggest a good place to pick up peices to make a custom inqusitor?

That kinda depends on what you want to equip your inquisitors with.
(I posted a link to some of my conversions on the previous page.)

So which psychic disciplines seem best suited for the Deathwatch? Obviously Telepathy is a good choice (it always is), but which of the other ones are good. Biomancy aiming for Endurance seems like a good choice to increase mobility and get some added durability. Divination is always a winner due to attacks hitting more often. Fulmination adds some Haywire and the ability for a Librarian to get a faux Storm Shield.

What are your thoughts?

Honestly for me, what you listed is pretty much what I'm gonna be taking. I feel like having a level 2 libby in any team is gonna be rare for me, so I want to make sure whatever primaris each lib is getting is going to be something they can use in almost any instance, regardless of what they roll on the discipline's table itself.

Didn't roll invis? Still got shriek.
Didn't roll Endurance? Still got smite.
Div power you rolled situational? Prescience.
Rolled haywire nova and they don't have vehicles? WC 1 S5 AP4 Assault 6 power

I am using a Lvl 2 Librarian as my Command so I will almost always have one on the board. What you just said sums up my thoughts as well.

I feel if you're going psychic heavy, which this army has no trouble doing, sanctic and librarius will be decent options.

Against a psychic deathstar?
Null zone, then smash face
Psychic scourge
Veil / might of heroes arent bad
Adamantium will and 4++ not bad either

worst case scenario a S5 AP3 blast is still an okay shooting attack.

Sanctic is more dangerous, but more deadly.
Need to take out an imperial knight?
Hammer hand with staves gives you 4 S8 attacks on the charge, vortex is self explanatory.
Cleansing flame can almost always find a use, same for gate and sanctuary.

Wouldn't bother with a lvl 1 though, in case you roll purge soul, and banishment :/

Why would anyone run a LV1 Mastery in the first place? Always go for the max you can.

As with everything deathwatch you need the spells to fill a hole in your list against a specific target. Personally I find myself always looking at the new trees and they offer a lot of potential for deathwatch. Th new anti vehicle tree is really solid help against Knights. The ignore LOS power is great for stalkers, etc.

Does anybody know?

Can a Deathwatch unit that contains an Independent Character from another codex be teleported via the Beacon Angelis?

sizzlebutt666 wrote:
Does anybody know?

Can a Deathwatch unit that contains an Independent Character from another codex be teleported via the Beacon Angelis?

If the new FAQs are a precedent, then most likely no.

SJ

Beacon says friendly units so i dont see why not.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

sizzlebutt666 wrote:
Does anybody know?

Can a Deathwatch unit that contains an Independent Character from another codex be teleported via the Beacon Angelis?

If the new FAQs are a precedent, then most likely no.

SJ

With the new FAQ, a unit containing 2 factions is considered both factions. Eg preffered enemy space marines, and PE imperial guard,both work against a conscript squad with a SM librarian. etc

So if a unit has a deathwatch IC, it is a deathwatch unit, add a friendly unit, and may be targeted by the Beacon Angelus .

This might change with the FAQ, so you might as well put the question on their facebook post, they are asking for deathwatch questions this week

The precedent I speak of is that the FAQs seem to be ruling against combos rather than in support, creating inconstancies and outright contradictions. Just being salty.

SJ

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why would anyone run a LV1 Mastery in the first place? Always go for the max you can.

I need those points for more weapons!

I've thought about it, and I'll probably try some lv2 soon, but for my first few games, I feel like more weapons will make the army more consistent than a few extra wc and an extra roll on each table. I'm willing to be wrong though. Coming from Eldar and Daemons, it feels so weird making lists that start with only like 3-5 wc.

I got a captain, and was debating what to put on him, then decided to make him melee-oriented for funsies, storm shield and power maul. Then I realized it costs 15 points to give him a SS (in other words, only +1 to his already-existing invul), while it only costs nearly everything else 10 points to get that shield. Is that the same for vanilla SM captains compared to vanilla vets? Regardless, now I'm back to figuring out how I want to build him. Bolter and maul? I'm favoring the maul, at least.

so, I'm kind of constrained by the kits I have since I'm not going to go buying bits, so how does this look for making the best of what I've got (2 veteran boxes)

Squad A:
4 shotguns

Squad B:
2 frag launchers
2 infernus heavy bolters

not sure how I want to equip the sergeants. Probably going to just give them bolters and maybe lightning claws (from the vanguard veteran kit).
Or a lightning claw and a stormshield?

I don't advise mixing special weapons. Makes the squads less efficient.

If you want a cannon squad, do a cannon squad.

Same is true for heavy bolters, etc.

True, but unless I buy two more veteran kits, I'm not going to get more cannons or heavy bolters.

Unless, you're suggesting to just give 2 cannons/heavy bolters to a 5 man squad and leave the other 3 with just their bolters?

Not the worst possibility

Bolters and Cannons have different goals.

It very well MAY be better to not mix them. Personally, I'd just run Shotguns with Cannons because they want to be close.

Bolters with Bolters, etc.

How about..

Squad A:
2 Shotguns
2 Frag Cannons

Squad B:
2 Infernus heavy bolters
Put in a rhino. let the two IHBs shoot out of the top hatch.

Looks better than before.

I, personally, am not not using any sergeants and am doing my Frag Cannons squads as 4x + 1 Shotgun, but this is mostly because I'm banking a lot on Wall of Death for overwatch.

Couldn't get a chance to finish my thought on pg13

I'm pretty sure I'm gonna make a Dominatus Kill Team, with an attached Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with Rad Grenades. When combined with a Beacon Angelis from a Drop Pod, this unit can cross the map with a bevy of power weapons and starting wounding things like Wraithknights. No Heavy Thunder Hammer needed, but still nice to bring along. Maybe a Xenophase Blade might have a place in such a Kill Team, seeing at it wounds on a now modified toughness.

Do you think these are distinct enough to sub in as Stalker Bolters?


I have a bunch of them left over after deciding to build a bunch of my MK III dudes as Assault Marines in my 30k Word Bearers.

There's a cylindrical piece of sprue on the back of the Deathwatch upgrade sprue (near the center) that's a perfect size for the end of a stalker bolter. I trimmed the tips a bit of the bolters and put that on them, worked out pretty well.

 Eldarain wrote:
Do you think these are distinct enough to sub in as Stalker Bolters?


I have a bunch of them left over after deciding to build a bunch of my MK III dudes as Assault Marines in my 30k Word Bearers.

Some of the bolt pistols in the Scout Squad kit have a elongated barrel. I cut those off and glued them in the place of the bolter barrel. They seem to have worked pretty well.

So I am wondering, for a squad leader, which seems to be a better option, a Black Shield or a Watch Sergeant or neither?

That's a good call. I have a bunch of those left from Lost Patrol.

 Eldarain wrote:
That's a good call. I have a bunch of those left from Lost Patrol.

I was able to convert the Kill Team Cassius's Iron Hands marine's Combi-Melta into a Stalker Pattern Boltgun that way. Looks pretty good, if I do say so myself. I will post a picture later. I did have some issues when I cut away the Melta tank, but I glued a strip of Special Issue Ammunition shells in its place.

Anyone have any more various success stories? I'm having 3 games tomorrow that I'll come back and report on, one at 1000 pts, then at 1500, then a killteam match.

I'm excited to see how my new stalker + infernus + cml squad furor squad goes. The idea is for it to lay down so much troop killing firepower that my dropping frag cannon squads can hunt way more valuable and appropriate targets.

Keen as a bean and will report back soon.

Rihgu wrote:
True, but unless I buy two more veteran kits, I'm not going to get more cannons or heavy bolters.

Unless, you're suggesting to just give 2 cannons/heavy bolters to a 5 man squad and leave the other 3 with just their bolters?

Both Kromlech and Anvil have alternative frag cannon models available.

Qwerty2jam wrote:
Anyone have any more various success stories? I'm having 3 games tomorrow that I'll come back and report on, one at 1000 pts, then at 1500, then a killteam match.

I'm excited to see how my new stalker + infernus + cml squad furor squad goes. The idea is for it to lay down so much troop killing firepower that my dropping frag cannon squads can hunt way more valuable and appropriate targets.

Keen as a bean and will report back soon.

Sure - I've had a few more goes with deathwatch since my last posting.

Went to an RTT with a watch company Black spear strike force. My list remembering is kinda hazy, but the gist of it was I had an all-comers team, with shotguns, frag cannons, and melee vanguard and a TDA captain, and a chaplain. I had a melta-drop team with 5 combi meltas and 2 melta fists in a drop pod. I had a stalker bolter team with 7 snipers and a libby. And I had a heavy weapons team, 4 missile launchers and a cyclone terminator. I did 2-1 for the day, winning vs an unbound flyer ork list (6 blitza bommers, 45 stormboys, and a loota squad in a bunker). I won 1st turn vs that guy because he reserved everything except the lootas. My melta team dropped in and destroyed the bunker, then my stalker bolter team finished off the stragglers thanks to phase form and hellfire rounds. Plus the exploding building took a large chunk out of the unit as well. Game 2 i lost, vs dark tetrad daemons. I killed all but 1 daemon prince, but she was so far ahead on maelstrom objectives that i still lost the overall game. Game 3 was vs KDK, with tons of assault units. I won that one, but took the heaviest casualties of any of my 3 games that day. Melta team did great work once more there - they dropped in and destroyed his renegade knight on the first turn of the game, but were quickly swarmed with bloodletters and warp talons, so didn't stick around long after that.

Yesterday, i played 1500 points vs nurgle chaos. He had a unit of 10 CSM, mark of nurgle, in a rhino. A unit of 10 plague marines in a rhino, with 2 meltas and a combi-melta. 10 nurgle bikers, with 2 flamers. A lord on a bike, mark of nurgle. And a nurgle daemon prince with the burning brand of skalathrax, LVL 3 mastery. My list at 1500 was a BSSF, led by a captain with Jump pack, artificier, and xenophase blade. I had a venerable dreadnaught with a TLLC/HF. A stalker boltgun kill team, with 5 stalker bolters and a lvl2 librarian (geokinesis). My melta droppers - 5 combi meltas, 1 meltafist/heavy flamer, and a TDA captain. And my all-rounder team. 3 shotguns, 2 frag cannons, 2 LC/SS vanguard, and a chaplain. The last 2 teams were strategium command squads, each taking an aquila kill team and a leader. I also took a corvus blackstar, with a halo launcher and a TL hurricane bolter.

I won 13-3 on maelstrom points, but here are some highlights. Turn 1 I shot at his bikers who had moved up, killing 1 total thanks to some really good saves on his part. I assaulted with my all-rounder team, challenging his lord with my jump captain. After completely failing to wound, the lord instant-deathed my captain with his power fist. Luckily earlier in the turn my melta team had gotten first blood from one of his rhinos. His daemon prince came on and killed 3 of my 5 snipers, but they held morale. His lord had morphed into a daemon prince after killing my captain, so he charged into battle and my chaplain survived thanks to his rosarius. My turn 2 prettymuch sealed the game for me - my corvus blackstar entered play and because he chose not to jink with his daemon prince of nurgle, i was able to deal 5 unsaved wounds total after firing my assault cannons, hurricane bolter, and all 4 stormstrike missiles. My dreadnought charged into the daemon prince that was fighting my chaplain, and while my chaplain did die at initiative 8, the dreadnought instant-deathed the daemon prince with his power fist. The remainder of the game he was killing bikers who couldn't really hurt him back, and the melta team was whittling away at plague marines in melee (thanks to the captain's relic blade).

So far in every one my my deathwatch games (7 in total so far), I've had a blast. They're great at keying in on specific targets and removing them from the battlefield, for the most part. We don't use death from the skies, so my corvus is great air support when needed. That said, mobility isn't the greatest in the army. I'm a huge fan of running kill teams with every game, so if i want a rhino to carry my guys around a little faster in, I have to do a kill team that only incorporates a librarian.

Anyway that's my catch-up on how i've been doing. it's a bit stream-of-consciousness, and for that i apologize. Can't wait to read how your games went.

To be fair you were facing quite a garbage CSM list.

To be fair again, that would be basically all CSM lists.

Garbage, that is.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair you were facing quite a garbage CSM list.

No arguments here on that one. However, i'm still counting the battle amongst my victories.

I'd say the most hardcore player we have at our local store is the woman who plays chaos daemons. Her lists are always very tzeench-based with tons of summoning, and while very cheesy puts up the hardest battles vs me compared to anyone else i play.

So, the Beacon Angelis is interesting in that it doesn't require you to have it on the board at the start of the turn to work, like every other imperial beacon. That means for the low cost of an HQ and a vet squad in a DP, you can have a reliable beacon turn 1.

Using this with Skyhammer Annihilation force could be pretty fething brutal. Particularly if you run that formation as Ultramarines. You can do 2x10 man assault squads (To give you the ability to split into 4x5 if you're facing MSU backfield control), and 2x4 Grav cannons, with rerolls to 1 to hit for everyone from using tactical doctrine turn 1. That gives you 2x20 Grav shots at 24", firing from roughly 12" from the beacon holder. You've also go a reliable 7" charge (Ignoring intervening terrain and units) from 6" from the beacon holder.

While turn 1 assaults and use of the skyhammer are not new tactics, I feel that the Beacon gives the reliability for a very low cost (Basically no tax, as you can give it to a ML2 Libby who is a solid unit), allowing the skyhammer to overcome one of it's biggest weaknesses, which is reliable landings. It's still got a serious weakness to Tau interceptor list, that might keep it from becoming a viable Tier 1 combination. With smart building, you could probably bring two skyhammer forces

With that in mind, I'm planning on running the following list tomorrow or next week;

Black Spear
Command
-ML2 Libby
-- Beacon

Core
Aquilla Kill Team
-5x Vets
--5x Shotgun
--2x Combi-Flamer
-2x Terminators
--2x Heavy Flamer
---Drop Pod

Aquilla Kill Team
-5x Vets
--5x Shotgun
--2x Combi-Plasma
-2x Terminators
--2x Assault Cannon
---Drop Pod

Aquilla Kill Team
-5x Vets
--5x Shotgun
--2x Combi-Melta
-2x Terminators
--2x Meltafist
---Drop Pod

Aux
-Dreadnought
--Assault Cannon and HF
---Drop Pod

Skyhammer Annihilation Force (Black Templar)
-10x Assault Marines
--Vet Sarge with PS and MB
-10x Assault Marines
--Vet Sarge with PS and MB
-5x Devastators
--4x Multi-melta
---Drop Pod
-5x Devastators
--4x Lascannon
---Drop Pod

I'm not running UM because I play BT. I'm running PS/MB on the AM because I plan on using them to bully weaker units and/or vehicles, and rule of cool. I have MM and LC instead of GC because I don't own any grav, and because I don't want to be the guy to show up with a list that drops 2x20 grav shots turn 1. Aquilla teams are all 9 man so I can be flexible with who I drop first and where the libby goes.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are that you ought to abandon the Lascannons. The main advantage of the Skyhammer is that it enables you to get the shorter range Heavy Weapons into their effective range.

Yep, Skyhammer is basically grav or MM.

But yeah, I have been working on a list with ultra skyhammers combined with the beacon.

I would make sure to run at least two pods for the deathwatch so that way if you have skyhammer come in turn two then you can have your beacon come in later.

However, that being said considering the cost of the skyhammer(mine is around 750) you could get a lot of other things like centurions in a cad or something similar, getting access to additional cheap OS in the form of scouts or other related items. You could get the terminator captain that would allow you to get slow and purposeful for your devs, or attach him to a stalker squad etc. Tons of versatility.

Hey, guys. I'm finishing up building all my guys this weekend and intend to hopefully do my first test games over the next two weeks. Wanted to post my list and gather some opinions before I do so.

-------------------------------


Aquilla Kill Team: Dominus Aegis
5 DW Veterans (4x Missile Launcher, 1x Stalker Bolter) 1 Librarian (Level 1, Specialty Ammo) 4 Terminators (CMS, Krakk) One veteran has a relic that gives the whole squad a 4++ if it doesn’t move.
This has 12 S8AP3 Shots at 48”, rerolling ones. Librarian rolls on Divination for Prescience.


Command Team:
Librarian ML2


Auxiliary:
One Corax Plane (Reroll Jink upgrade Rocket Launcher)


Core Aquilla kill teams
5x DW Veterans (4x Frag Cannon) 1 Librarian (Level 1, Specialty ammo) Drop Pod
5x DW Veterans (4x Frag Cannon) 1 Librarian (Level 1, Specialty ammo) Drop Pod
The above Librarians, like the other, rolls Divination for Prescience and the ability to ignore cover. Each of these squads, default, does 8 S9AP2 Shots at <12”


Three Simple Kill Teams
5x DW Veterans Shotgun/Bolter
One has a Drop Pod, not Embarked


Inquisitorial Detachment

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor
3 Servo Skulls

-------------------------------


Going for a bit of an Alpha Strike, dropping the two cannon squads turn 1, using the missile team from the back lines to take objectives.

I will add, I'm strongly considering DROPPING the level 1 Librarian from my missile aquilla team, and adding a bike for split fire.

Opinions?

BrianDavion wrote:
on a slightly related topic, can anyone suggest a good place to pick up peices to make a custom inqusitor?

The legs and torso from Tempestus Scions, combined with arms from Space Marines, would make convincing Power Armour for a custom Inquisitor, or just use the Scion parts and either Scion, SM Scout or IG arms for a Carapace Armoured Inquisitor.

This was my take on a 1850 competitive DE list with a Skyhammer. Ultramarines for the skyhammer, tactical doctrine turn 1, and if any devastators remain then devastator doctrine turn 2.
Use beacon Angelis to redeploy the dreadnought to the front lines since it has a Multi-Melta.

Thoughts?


Black Spear Strike Force

(Watch Commpander)
Watch Master
Beacon Angelis

(Watch Company)
Watch Captain Artemis

Aquila or Malleus Frag team
Terminator
2x vets w/ frag cannons
3x vets w/ boltgun shotgun
Drop pod

Aquila or Furor Frag team
Terminator
2x vets w/ frag cannons
3x vets w/ boltgun shotgun
Drop pod

Aquila or Furor Missile team
Terminator w/ cyclone missile launcher
5x vets stalker bolter shotgun

Aquila or Furor Missile team
Terminator w/ cyclone missile launcher
5x vets stalker bolter shotgun

(Ancient)
Dreadnought


Skyhammer Annihilation Force

Devastators
4x Grav Cannons w/ grav amps
Drop pod

Devastators
4x Mutli-melta
Drop pod

Assault Squad

Assault Squad

I would stick solely with Aquila for the most part.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I would stick solely with Aquila for the most part.

That has been my thought as well. Initially, I thought the other variations might be good, but one could often end up with no benefit. Especially with FormationHammer allowing for things like Troops to be ignored.

Yeah, I was thinking all Aquila but a few people here were telling me to try out the other ones. Thin always rerolling 1's is better too.

Especially with all the gargs/SHVs aquila is the way to go.

Also baring certain situations you will usually be using the hellfire ammo anyway so re-roll ones is basically re-roll all lol.

Biggest thing I'm concerned about with the list is if I go second against an alpha strike. Only 5 marines, two terminators and a dreadnought starting on the board.

Remember its at end of a game turn, not player turn for determining if you are tabled or not.

 Leth wrote:
Remember its at end of a game turn, not player turn for determining if you are tabled or not.

Oh right, I had forgotten that. Thanks!

Alright guys sorry for the delay real life got in the way of the promised battle reports.

So I played 3 games; 1000 pts, 1500 pts, killteam (200 pts)

1000 pt game:

My list consisted of;

Killteam primaris (malleus):

3x veterans
2x vets w/ frag cannon
2x terminators w/ TH/SH & cyclone missile launcher
Drop pod (embarked)

Killteam secundis (malleus):

3x veterans
2x vets w/ frag cannon
2x terminators w/ TH/SH & cyclone missile launcher
Drop pod (embarked)

Killteam tertius (strategium/furor):

3x vets w/ stalker bolters & bolters
2x vets w/ infernus heavy bolters
1x biker
1x terminators w/ TH/SH & cyclone missile launcher
1x lib lvl 2
Drop pod (not embarked)

------------------

So I was facing off against eldar, it was nightmare fuel. Windriders, farseers on jetbikes and a wraithknight. I got first turn and he failed to steal.

So in the first turn I managed to drop the wraith knight with a great drop pod distance with kill team malleus, poisoned (sadly 6+) Bolter shots with heavy support mission tactic and rerolls to wound as well as impacting frag cannon shots made flipping short work of it, the CML helped a ton too, honestly it was overkill and his 5++ meant nothing.

The other malleus killteam easily whiped a bike team off the board but he was running msu so no worries there. Tertius took out 2 squads on their own thanks to my lib rolling the ignores cover power and having prescience. Turned on presience for rerolls and the CML and everything else made short work.

So I hurt hard first turn, he had some horrible saves, but he kept up his spirits and struck back. Sadly it didn't go so well for him, he punched a few more bike teams down the board, intent to take out tertius and abuse their range and speed over both primaris and secundis. Luckily of his shots that hit and wounded, the biker jinked 5 of the 6 and died on the sixth then another squad rolled horribly and my terminator saved it all. Final squad shot and killed him but he stopped all the shots.

My next turn I used the angelis beacon to warp tertius out of trouble, but they landed within Bolter range which was perfect. Moved primaris and secundis up and the combined firepower from all 3 killteams all but finished him off and he conceded.

Great success against the xenos scum!!!

------------------------------

So 1500 this time....exact same list but primaris gets a hell of an upgrade.

I added:

Inquisitor coteaz
Librarian conclave light: ml2, ml1, ml1
2 more frag cannons
2 more super terminators

Sssssssoooooo this was the funniest thing I've done in a long time. I was playing against kdk, this is one hell of a list, spams that damn formation that adds blood tithe every turn, as many of that as he can, axe of ruin suicide lord, spams bloodthirters....it's a headache and a half honestly.

This table is DENSE with terrain, really multi level stuff. Some of them towers longer than my arm. There is a tower like this on the top left and bottom right corner of the table. They have 7 floors which can make it impossible to scale in a game. Usually they're not used by anyone but our damn tau player.

But I go and roll something funny on my conclave now don't I.....I rolled shifting worldscape.....I giggled my power armoured butt off.

I got first turn, he seized, I made him reroll into a fail with coteaz. His jimmies were resulted from minute 1. I put ALL of my units inside this one tower, dropped my drop pods in all his main approaches using the new drop pod faq to just frustrate him....I then succeeded in shifting worldscape and punched my whole army in cover into the middle of the board.

Poor move through cover and combined firepower that dropped every unit but his cultists in 2 turns saw him give up at the end of his turn 3, he's a good mate and we were laughing hysterically about how well it worked.

Best moment has his bloodthirter from the axe of ruin being Insta-gibbed from coteaz' super interceptor with impacting frag cannons.

-----------------

The killteam is barely worth mentioning. Played against harlequins, he got the outflank leader trait, did so and I killed all 3 harlequins with a relentless stalker Bolter, a 36" frag cannon, and 30" special ammo Bolter rounds.

--------------------

So my thoughts;

Our firepower is nothing short of sensational, truely tau level stuff.
The lib conclave isn't worth taking small like that, they did 1 cool thing and then we're kind of meh. I would honestly rather spend 440 pts and take 20 extra special ammo marines.
Special ammo was talked down to me in the leaks, despite my feelings that it was amazing I went in expecting nothing. Turns out those people are fools and now I drink deeply from a flagon of their tears.
Super terminators (thunder hammer/storm shield and a cyclone missile launcher) are worth the 75 points. Period.
If not deep striking every squad should have a bike because of the hilarious jink save and because we often overkill things with firepower.
I honestly feel they perform in the top 10 as a solo army easily.
I have yet to find a points limit in which I feel happy to include a watch master sadly.
The frag cannon is still amazing

---------------------

Also a musing for everyone that has been reading the Dex, the strategies command gets rid of the 10 model limit (or so I believe after a lot of thinking) allowing you to join tomfoolery to it (like I did).

----------------------

Anyway that's all for now, hope there's some interesting stuff in there for people.

I won a 6 hour painting comp by painting my watch master, first I've ever won, which is super cool.

Sorry for any spelling/grammar atrocities, I'm on my phone atm so autocorrect is a thing.

Anyway cheers all,

Qwerty

Aren't the AP3 bolter shots S4? How'd they hurt the Wraithknight?

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Aren't the AP3 bolter shots S4? How'd they hurt the Wraithknight?

They wouldn't. Which sucks. DW have a very hard time with Wraithknights.

That's totally my bad, had different formatting earlier on and cutting and pasting sections didn't work very well on mobile, they were the 6+ poison shots (damn gargantuans) but I got 2 wounds from it and he failed 1.

 Eldarain wrote:
Do you think these are distinct enough to sub in as Stalker Bolters?


I have a bunch of them left over after deciding to build a bunch of my MK III dudes as Assault Marines in my 30k Word Bearers.

I would think that the Legion Seeker Bolters would be a better choice:

 minionboy wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Do you think these are distinct enough to sub in as Stalker Bolters?


I have a bunch of them left over after deciding to build a bunch of my MK III dudes as Assault Marines in my 30k Word Bearers.

I would think that the Legion Seeker Bolters would be a better choice:

100% agree. The larger magazine definitely has the profile of the Special Ammunition selector of the Deathwatch Boltgun.

I also just wanted to point out that the September White Dwarf keeps referring to the Power Sword bits from the Kill Team kit as Combat Blades. So I am just going to use them as is. I won't add the blue glaze to make them Power Swords.

Qwerty2jam wrote:
Also a musing for everyone that has been reading the Dex, the strategies command gets rid of the 10 model limit (or so I believe after a lot of thinking) allowing you to join tomfoolery to it (like I did).

Not sure what you mean here. A Strategium Command Team is either a Veteran Squad (max 10 models + transport) or one of the Kill Team formations (max 10 models + transport) and then either a Watch Captain, Librarian or Chaplain (so max 11 models + transport). It isn't like you can add a full 5-man Terminator Squad, a full 5-Man Vanguard Squad and a full 5-Man Bike Squad along with a full 10-Man Veteran Squad - you are still limited by the Squad or Kill Team type you choose to make into a Strategium Command Team.

If you mean that you can join other characters to it, you can do that with any of the other Kill Teams as well - the 10-model restriction is just on the size of the Kill Team itself when selecting it, it does not forbid you from having Independent Characters join the unit during the game.

Qwerty2jam wrote:
I have yet to find a points limit in which I feel happy to include a watch master sadly.

Qwerty

I included a Watch Master in a 2000pt list because it was the only way I could get a Black Spear force with the models I have. Although now I realize I could have moved the Librarian out of the Aquila KT and made him the Command choice. Oh, well.

Anyway, the Deathwatch detachment was less than half of the whole list. For one Kill Team and one Dreadnought, the Watch Master doesn't 'force multiply' hard enough. I only changed Mission Tactics twice. I started him on the board attached to an Inquisitorial Henchmen unit to make use of his Beacon Angelus. But he didn't add much to them. In fact I had to shoot his guardian spear with standard bolter rounds so the henchmen could also shoot their bolters.

I still really want to get him to combat. I have a feeling he will surprise an opponent or two. I mean, he looks like such an old man in the official model, but S5 I5 AP2 is pretty darn decent. The Block special rule along with iron halo should make him pretty tough, too.

Granted this is only one game's worth of results, so YMMV.

Great stormshield moment in a 1k game last night. Playing vs white scars, my alpha unit dropped on top of khan and 5 kitted bikes in cover and absolutely annihilated it. I left a bolter/shield marine toward the back facing toward a dev squad that I knew would have shots on it. Sure enough, I took 7 grav wounds on that expensive unit, but that stormshield guy in the back saved all 7 on the stormshield!

 SkrawnyNob wrote:
I started him on the board attached to an Inquisitorial Henchmen unit to make use of his Beacon Angelus. But he didn't add much to them. In fact I had to shoot his guardian spear with standard bolter rounds so the henchmen could also shoot their bolters.

I think you misread the Special Issue Ammunition rule.

All models with special issue ammunition in a unit must use the same type of ammunition when the unit shoots.

The rule only affects those with special issue ammunition in the first place. Since the Henchmen don't have special issue ammunition, they can still fire their boltguns using regular ammo when the joined character uses special ammo.

After finally deciding to take the plunge I've decided on building a small 2k army.
What load outs are people running on the basics?

I was half tempted to grab 4 basic box's of vets then run:

4 frag cannon
Sgt with sword

4 heavy flamer/bolter
Sgt with sword

4 stalker patter bolters
Sgt with sword

5 kitted out purely for CC


Was tempted to run that all in pods as a base, but unsure on the viability of the units.
I rather not mix and match too much as I prefer each unit has a sole purpose and focuses on that.

But am I shooting myself in the foot so to speak?

Is there any real benefit to taking a CAD instead of a Black Spear Strike Force? I suppose having Vanguard Veterans with some Storm Shields on some and a couple HTH on the others would make for a good combo that can't really be done in a Black Spear without sacrificing the Veterans' shooting. Is there really anything else beneficial about a CAD?

Objective Secured is the main one as well as a smaller points commitment to get into the army.

Personally I am finding in planning my armies that

A. There will always be allies of some sort
B. I need to completely adjust the list based on the demands of the missions I am going to play.

Still need to plan for a GT I am going to, need to look at the NOVA mission pack.

However I am strongly considering a CAD with mini Space Wolf Thunderwolves star to help me with knights/Eldar(Attach him to the WS character from overkill so they get hit and run without losing it muahahahahaha)

Another thing I dont see people incorporating is Rhinos/Drop Pods into their lists. For 35 points you get another unit that can sit on objectives or just be an annoyance. OS in a CAD, as a low model count army it is crucial to have these things.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Is there any real benefit to taking a CAD instead of a Black Spear Strike Force? I suppose having Vanguard Veterans with some Storm Shields on some and a couple HTH on the others would make for a good combo that can't really be done in a Black Spear without sacrificing the Veterans' shooting. Is there really anything else beneficial about a CAD?

The benefits of a CAD over the Black Spear that I can see:

- Objective Secured
- Biker Squads with full mobility
- Vanguard Squads with full mobility
- Very small squads of Bikes, Vanguard and/or Terminators possible for shenanigans in non-kill points games


I am seriously considering running both a Black Spear with some Aquila Kill Teams (such as the 4xFrag Cannon drop pod, etc) alongside a CAD with two 5-man Veteran Squads (5 w/ Stalkers as objective holders & ranged support, 5 w/ Bolters and 2-3 Storm Shields purely as objective holders). Then I can have a few 2-man Vanguard and Bike harassment teams to force the enemy to choose between numerous dangerous threats. This way, I still get some ObSec and small utility squads, plus the benefits of Kill Team re-rolls. I might even consider buying pods for all Kill Teams and the two objective holders, just so I can have a few empty pods to increase my alpha-strike potential with the loaded ones.

I am leaning toward the following Black Spear Strike Force.

Black Spear Strike Force:

Core:
-Watch Company

--Watch Captain Artemis - 145 pts

--Aquila Kill Team
---Veteran Squad (4x Frag Cannons, Power Sword and Bolter and Sergeant) - 225 pts
---2x Terminators (Assault Cannon each) - 120 pts

--Aquila Kill Team
---Veteran Squad (Bolters and Shotguns on everyone, Power Maul on Sergeant) - 125 pts
---2x Vanguard Veterans (Heavy Thunder Hammer) - 110 pts

--Aquila Kill Team
---Veteran Squad (Bolters and Shotguns on everyone, Power Maul on Sergeant) - 125 pts
---2x Vanguard Veterans (Heavy Thunder Hammer) - 110 pts

--Veterans
---Veteran Squad (Stalker Boltguns and Boltguns on everyone, Razorback with TL Assault Cannon) - 210 pts

Command:
-Watch Commander

--Librarian (Force Sword, Mastery Level 2, Tome of Ectoclades) - 95 pts

Auxiliary:
-Dropship
--Corvus Blackstar (Blackstar Rocket Launcher, Infernum Halo-Launcher) - 200 pts

Oathsworn Detachment
Knight Paladin - 375 pts


Total - 1850/1850 pts

My other option is to replace the Razorback with two Bike Marines with Power Weapons and make the Veterans into an Aquila Kill Team. Which would be a better choice? I want a little more fire support for the army, so a Razorback seems like a good choice for the SPB Squad. My reason for the SPB squad having both a SPB and a Boltgun is that they will ride in the Razorback to wherever they need to be, pop out and fire their boltguns, then set up shop and use their SPB from there on out. The Librarian will probably ride with the SPB Squad, but I suppose he could go with one of the HTH Aquila Squads (Artemis will go with the other).

Played 1850 against myself last night since I couldn't get down to the shop. Took a bunch of pics, will put up a full battle report in a day or two.

Deathwatch/Black Templars

Libby lvl 2
Aquila kill team (2 combi flamer, 2 terms heavy flamer)
Aquila kill team (2 combi melta, 2 terms melta)
Aquila kill team (2 combi plas, 2 assault cannon)

Skyhammer annihilation
2x10 Assault marines (vet sarge, sword melta bombs)
2x5 Devastators (4 melta, 4 lascannon)

Tyranids
Tyrant (2x Devs, regen)
2x Tyrant guard
Flyrant (2x Devs)
2x1 Zoe
Malanthrope
2x20 Hormagaunts
2x10 Termagants
1x2 Carnifex (2x Devs)
1x3 Biovores
Deathleaper Assassin Brood

It's been about 6 months since I last played, so I made a lot of mistakes on both sides. I didn't tailor either list, I simply grabbed the nids because I thought it would be more fun to play against xenos than marines, chaos or IG. As soon as I deployed and looked at the nids I felt like I had fethed up.

My DW list simply doesn't have the long range firepower to stand up to the pressure of the Tyranids, especially with how tough the Malanthrope makes everything. Luckily I play maelstrom, so right off the rip I knew I was going to be playing for the short game.

Since trying to overwhelmingly alpha strike against this Tyranid list is basically an all-or-nothing gamble (With really bad odds), I planned to use my drop pods and assault squads to keep the Tyranids hemmed in on their half of the map. Luckily I had gotten the objective heavy (3 mid, 2 DW side, 1 Nid side) side of the board, so odds were in my favor.
I elected to keep skyhammer off the board till turn 2, hoping to have better targets when the nids broke their anti-alpha strike bubbl, but before they hit the midfield.

For the Tyranids, I typically keep 1-2 of the lictors in reserve for DS or outflank, but this game I thought having them on/near every objective at the start would be useful as it was the mission where you can score opponents # objective cards. I castled up in the middle with a gant squad on each flank bubbling me and giving me the ability to cover most of the board with a tarpit.

Basically, the game went about as expected, I used 3 pods to block the midfield, 2 to hold objectives, used the DW squads to pick up the lictors off objectives, assault squads to hold up gants. Sheer volume of firepower from carnifexes and tyrants meant I knew I would be wiped if I didn't kill them, and with my squad loadouts and the malanthrope, trying to do so would be very risky and put everything in serious danger. I elected to hide to the best of my ability and try to force the Tyranids into bad spots.

It was actually a pretty close game going into the 4th turn, but both assault squads had ABYSMAL dice and the Hormagaunts were absolutely on fire. I went 5 rounds of combat without 1 of the vet sergeants doing a single wound. That's 15 attacks, should've been ~6-7 dead hormagants. Hormagants were saving almost 50% of their wounds, and picking up 1-2 marines a turn, despite being massively strung out and losing a lot of attacks (Should, on average, take 18 hormagaunt attacks to kill 1 marine). My saves were terrible, the biovores picked up two terminators and 4-5 marines. The weight of fire from the HT and Carni were just oppressive, the biggest thing that saved me was LOS.

I didn't get a single psychic power off until turn 4, after I had put down a zoanthrope and rolled a 6 for dice.

Turn 4 I failed to finish off (Or even make progress) against the gant blobs, dropped the flyrant, but had to warp my healthiest DW squad right infront of the carnifexes to do it. I knew it meant they would die, but, without them the flyrant was going to take an objective from me, and then be on his way to kill them later. Two models survived thanks to LOS, but at that point I had 2x2 DW vets, the libby, and 4 members of the assault cannon squad left near the middle of the board. There was no escape, not enough bodies, and the score was basically tied.

I had to go for big scoring plays, as I didn't have the mobility to get past the Tyranid board control, and didn't have any hope of surviving to the end of the game.

Ended up DW being tabled by the last attack from the Malanthrope at the bottom of 6. Tyranids won 17-12, having scored, I think, 5-6 points on turn 6. If it had ended on turn 5 it may have been a draw or DW victory, I have to go back and check the pics.

My thoughts - Grav Cannons would have made a massive difference. I already knew they were better, but, the weight of fire is REALLY important. A single level 2 is not a reliable psychic source, but, still made a difference for defense. Beacon Angelis is REALLY strong. I considered using it to warp a drop pod over for walling things off, but ended up taking the squad. Not having Ob Sec cost me a LOT of points. There was a single Horamagaunt from one squad in range of an objective I had a drop pod on, who was locked in combat and I just COULDN'T kill him. Tyranids took that objective from DW twice, and denied the D3 VP for 3 objectives for a turn or two because of it. Also had a drop pod contesting an obj with a lictor, could've scored there as well.

Really like the Terminators in squads. The DW pack a solid punch, rerolling 1s to wound always is great. Totally forgot about shotguns, used bolt pistols instead, don't think it would've made a difference. Overall, pretty cool army. Flexible. Fun. Will try again. Maybe try to fit some Grav cannons in, although the reason I didn't bring them was because I don't have any models.

 Ambience 327 wrote:

 SkrawnyNob wrote:
I started him on the board attached to an Inquisitorial Henchmen unit to make use of his Beacon Angelus. But he didn't add much to them. In fact I had to shoot his guardian spear with standard bolter rounds so the henchmen could also shoot their bolters.

I think you misread the Special Issue Ammunition rule.

All models with special issue ammunition in a unit must use the same type of ammunition when the unit shoots.

The rule only affects those with special issue ammunition in the first place. Since the Henchmen don't have special issue ammunition, they can still fire their boltguns using regular ammo when the joined character uses special ammo.

Ah, very good! Thanks for catching that.

Just got done converting Zameon Gydrael into on of my Sergeants. Had to cut off his left hand to give him a boltgun. Hard than it seems since that involved cutting the had off one of the right hand boltguns, a left hand off a Grav Pistol, and pricing them all together. Looks really good now. Also decided to give him a hooded helmet head, so had to cut away his existing head. Pain in the butt, especially since his Power Sword is a little subpar compared to a Power Maul. But I like him anyway.

When running a Black Spear, when my squads drop in, I will probably spend the first turn shooting their boltguns, then switch to Shotguns the second turn so they can assault. Since my Sergeants lack Shotguns, they will be chucking a Krak Grenade. Seems pretty straight forward.

Yeah, I just ordered kill team Cassius, so a lot of conversions in my future

 Leth wrote:
Yeah, I just ordered kill team Cassius, so a lot of conversions in my future

I converted the Iron Hand's Combi-Melta into a Stalker Bolter, cut the Chainsword off of the Space Wolf and glued a grenade hand in its place. Otherwise the majority of the Marines from that box that I am going to use need no conversions, though that is just the Imperial Fist, Ultramarine, and Blood Raven. My next conversion project is going to be converting the Assault Cannon Terminator from Dark Vengeance by cutting away his regular Terminator shoulder pauldron so I can glue a DW pauldron in its place, converting the Chainfist Terminator by giving him a Heavy Flamer and cutting off the Chainsword portion to attach a Meltagun (also scraping away some of the Dark Angels details to make him a Blood Angel), and giving one of the plain SB/PF Terminators a Cyclone Missile Launcher(and scraping away the Dark Angel stuff and the Terminator Pauldron, so he can be made into another Chapter). Overall, I am having a lot of fun converting these guys.

As for some Tactics stuff. Should I run the two Heavy Flamer/Melta Fist Terminators with my Frag Cannon Aquila or should I keep my original plan of running the two Assault Cannon Terminators?

Also, is it me or are Combi-Weapons 100% pointless on Veterans? Why would I take a Combi-weapon when I can just exchange my Boltgun for a Meltagun and my CCW for a Boltgun? And technically, is anything stopping me from giving 4 Veterans a Frag Cannon AND a Missile Launcher? Sure it is stupidly expensive, but it would be versatile. Or any number of ridiculous combinations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What is going to be better for an army with WC Artemis? I almost want to switch my Librarian out for a Chaplain so he can reroll with that bomb. But a Librarian seems more useful as I will probably take Telepathy or Biomancy to get better survival.

Played a couple games with deathwatch w/ allies and without. I put a thought or two into my list construction and...

Here are my thoughts, maybe it will help you:

1. Frag cannon FTW, glance/or penn land raiders, knights, kill TEQs/Guards/Nids/Orks...etc. Its simply amazing, and lets you assault too. Combine it with shotgun mahreens, throw down templates @ low armor blobs for maximum lulz. Worked well against Solar Auxilia, Guards, Orks, Nids, also forces MEQ to make a lot of armor rolls, negated with mission tactics, clean up the table real good.

2. Artemis FTW, killed a knight and Solar Auxilia Malcador on 2 separate games. His stasis bomb is...amazing. Chances of hitting outweighs the chance of him killing himself. I also attached him with a stormshield/hammer heavy malleus kill team. If you negate rolling 1s with mission tactics or chaplain, his chance of killing himself is now 1/6, or 16%. Especially when you roll a 6 for Str D ap 1 bomb when it hits, the knight and malcador goes kaboom lol.

3. Meltafist is great, its cheap and lets you assault. Kills those Av14/Av13 stuff real fast.

4. Beacon Angelis is very versatile. VERY. Let's you go all sorts of crazy stuff. Teleport your kill team to help out your HQ or teleport away from some deathstar and shoot them from far away. I gave it to a captain with artificer armor and jump pack, letting him run around with impunity and guiding deep strikes around the board. Remember, maneuver warfare wins the day, don't let the enemies dictate your movement and battles.

5. Giving Corvus Blackstar locater beacon is a solid tactical choice IMO. As the corvus flies towards whatever target, the turn it hovers to drop kill team off, just deep strike other shooty kill team(s). In my case, I deep striked a malleus kill team with meltafist termies w/ cyclone and mahreens with frag cannons poped the land raider in one turn and the squad in the corvus jumped out, shot @ the survivors from the land raider and assaulted and wiped the unit with hammers.

6. Take both vanguard vets and termies in kill team for maximum lulz, or bike for more lulz.

7. Take shotgun/boltgun for maximum win, or whatever weapon/boltgun for versatility .

I'm really hoping the Shotgun/Bolter stuff sticks. If not just because I just primed 20 Shotguns.

So some of the formations say "any number from the following" and then lists, for example, Librarians. Does this mean you can take 0?

Cause you know.. some say 0 is a number.

Really trying to decide if the Black Spear is worth it over CAD.

Losing obsec is absolutely massive, and the Black Spear buffs themselves aren't particularly amazing. Yeah, 1 more change of targets is nice, but, obsec is one of the strongest abilities in the game. The only thing that Black Spear really has that keeps me from immediately writing it off is the strength of mixed kill teams, and the reroll 1s to wound vs all targets of the aquilla team.

Putting 2 terminators in each squad is just so powerful, particularly in drop pod lists. Comparing 4x Veterans vs 2x terminators;

88 vs 80 pts
4W vs 2W, however, Terminators saves make them only 75% as durable vs AP2, equally durable vs AP4+ and 600% more durable vs AP3, figured without cover.
8A vs 4A with the Terms having PF attacks
Vets can take heavies but they're not relentless, Terms can take CML or AC for heavy, and are relentless
Vets have 4 types of specials, Terms only HF and Melta. Vets using Combis are not stuck using a special, and can still use their special ammo
Terminators provide Fearless, but cannot sweep (Does this stop the squad? I think not, but not 100%)
If using Vets alone, they can be in a CAD and be obsec, cannot be obsec with terminators in a kill team
10 vets can combat squad

You can fill a drop pod with straight Vets and 4 combis, or 6 vets, 2 terms and misc weapons for about 300 pts either way, so in the end the cost is pretty close. Durability is pretty close. Both can fit similar firepower at around 300 pts. The two main things that differ are the Aquila kill team Term squads reroll all 1s to wound, are Fearless and have two powerfists included in cost, the straight vets are obsec, and can combat squad.

What say you all? Go CAD with 10 man vet squads, or Black Spear with mixed Aquilla teams?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rezyn wrote:
So some of the formations say "any number from the following" and then lists, for example, Librarians. Does this mean you can take 0?

Cause you know.. some say 0 is a number.

Yes. The lists that require you to take something explicitly say so.

The universal deep strike seems interesting as well. Especially with beacons, homers and the Angelis.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Really trying to decide if the Black Spear is worth it over CAD.

Losing obsec is absolutely massive, and the Black Spear buffs themselves aren't particularly amazing. Yeah, 1 more change of targets is nice, but, obsec is one of the strongest abilities in the game. The only thing that Black Spear really has that keeps me from immediately writing it off is the strength of mixed kill teams, and the reroll 1s to wound vs all targets of the aquilla team.

Putting 2 terminators in each squad is just so powerful, particularly in drop pod lists. Comparing 4x Veterans vs 2x terminators;

88 vs 80 pts
4W vs 2W, however, Terminators saves make them only 75% as durable vs AP2, equally durable vs AP4+ and 600% more durable vs AP3, figured without cover.
8A vs 4A with the Terms having PF attacks
Vets can take heavies but they're not relentless, Terms can take CML or AC for heavy, and are relentless
Vets have 4 types of specials, Terms only HF and Melta. Vets using Combis are not stuck using a special, and can still use their special ammo
Terminators provide Fearless, but cannot sweep (Does this stop the squad? I think not, but not 100%)
If using Vets alone, they can be in a CAD and be obsec, cannot be obsec with terminators in a kill team
10 vets can combat squad

You can fill a drop pod with straight Vets and 4 combis, or 6 vets, 2 terms and misc weapons for about 300 pts either way, so in the end the cost is pretty close. Durability is pretty close. Both can fit similar firepower at around 300 pts. The two main things that differ are the Aquila kill team Term squads reroll all 1s to wound, are Fearless and have two powerfists included in cost, the straight vets are obsec, and can combat squad.

What say you all? Go CAD with 10 man vet squads, or Black Spear with mixed Aquilla teams?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rezyn wrote:
So some of the formations say "any number from the following" and then lists, for example, Librarians. Does this mean you can take 0?

Cause you know.. some say 0 is a number.

Yes. The lists that require you to take something explicitly say so.

I am leaning more and more to doing both. The Black Spear has such small requirements, that you can fairly easily add one to a CAD with a pair of small 5-Man Kill Teams for the ObSec (I'm thinking one with Stalkers for backfield objective holding & sniping, and another with 2-3 Storm Shields in a Drop Pod for taking a more remote objective and holding it strong). Then add in a Black Spear with a few Aquila and/or Strategium Aquila Kill Teams with various equipment (4xFrags, Shotguns & Infernus, CC Weapons, etc). Doing it this way also lets you field some small 1-2 man Vanguard, Terminator and Bike Squads for additional shenanigans.

Well, I just ended up getting a Watch Master and a Watch Captain. The Captain is going to be turned into Watch Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists (he is the Captain that they rescued from the Dark Eldar Gladiator pits). He will have a Power Fist and Bolt Pistol or Boltgun. Watch Master is just going to be himself, but I will stick a Teleport Homer near him to be tested Beacon Angelis.

 Eldarain wrote:
The universal deep strike seems interesting as well. Especially with beacons, homers and the Angelis.

Problem is you don't get drop pods if you use the deep strike. Pods also are extremely good for area denial, holding objectives, blocking LOS, etc. They're one of the best things in the game.

I am leaning more and more to doing both. The Black Spear has such small requirements, that you can fairly easily add one to a CAD with a pair of small 5-Man Kill Teams for the ObSec (I'm thinking one with Stalkers for backfield objective holding & sniping, and another with 2-3 Storm Shields in a Drop Pod for taking a more remote objective and holding it strong). Then add in a Black Spear with a few Aquila and/or Strategium Aquila Kill Teams with various equipment (4xFrags, Shotguns & Infernus, CC Weapons, etc). Doing it this way also lets you field some small 1-2 man Vanguard, Terminator and Bike Squads for additional shenanigans.

Interesting idea. I wouldn't go through the trouble of getting ObSec just for stalker backfield teams though, it's most powerful on units that are going to be in the midfield, and doubly so on drop pods that a lot of armies can't remove reliably with their basic troops. My biggest issue is the HQ slots in this book are really underwhelming, except maybe Librarians. I'd rather have a 5 man kill team than another HQ.

But still, could take another ML2 Libby with 2 ObSec vet drop pods in a cad. Just solid fire support units, drop them in later when the obsec is more needed, could also combat squad so you get 4 ob sec out of it. Hmmm. Might be something to try. Although, at 700 pts or so for a libby and 2x10 man drop DW teams, I can run Skyhammer. Hmmmmm.

Hey everyone, I need some advice as to the future of my army.

My problem is that the local GW I usually play at play smaller games at 1000 points. Now obviously this is rather limiting to how my deathwatch can perform. I've been running 3 kill teams fairly kitted and all had 75 point terminators in them. I was running 300+ points in 5 models.....yeah I know.

There are large holes in the deathwatch, I'll admit that. The largest of which in my army is survivability.

So I have 2 ideas of how to go with my army. Every idea has to fit the theme and my play style which is death star/alpha strike.

I have two choices; raven wing strike force or inquisitorial detachement

---------------------

Ravenwing would consist of either sammael or a chaplain on bike, 2x bike squads with grav guns and a command squad with the banner and an apoc.

My deathwatch here would likely be 2 Aquila kill teams each with a ML1 lib to cast psychic shriek and if I'm lucky invis.

This route gives me fast and hard hitting units. Speed of the Raven would allow me to get into position and be very survivable for that first turn, or allow me to hit hard against GMCs and elites.

Theme wise I would do my bikes not as Ravenwing but much as the deathwatch is, each bike customised to be from different chapters, all riding together. This makes me question as to whether to use sammael from a model standpoint though, it doesn't really fit.

---------------------------

The inquisition would consist of several squads of henchmen; most likely 3 squads of 5 crusaders, a priest and a Psyker each. These would go and tie up large targets in a tar pit, use psychic shriek and hold points.

I would then get coteaz and stick him in one, probably maxed out kill team with 4xfrag cannons and a few storm shields. If I have the points I'll throw in a Corvus.

This solves a lot of the survivability issue but leaves me very slow.

-----------------

I'm really lost as to how to proceed. I look at the SKYHAMMER annihilation force but could get it to really work in 1000 considering I want those juicy grav cannons.

Any advice or opinions would be great, even if it's to just throw your vote one way or another.

Cheers all,

Qwerty

Why do you need the allies? At 1000 points, you're already stretching thin.

Just trim down your squads, remember, a basic vet is still a very, very strong model. You can fit 3x10 capacity aquilla squads in pods and an HQ at 1000 pts. That strikes me as pretty potent. If you went CAD with no mixed squads, you could drop 30 vets split into 6 squads, with 2 combis per squad.

At our vets base cost, and no reduced prices for upgrades, they're just really inefficient to put melee wargear on.

You could also go CAD and take a handful of individual bikes/terminators, bring 3 pods, maybe 1 of which is empty, and drop 2 pods turn 1. Then you have mobile individual bikes, solid fire support from the termies, and 2/4 squads right in their face.

Hey Trace,

I'm trying to do the maths here an the cheapest way i can do an aquilla kill team with 2x frag cannons that fits in a DP is 245 pts. At max I could get 4 of those squads and that 20 space marine and 4 terminators on the board, I could remove 1 DP, have 2 arrive full first turn and one empty second turn and have all units on the board turn 1, 2 in the enemies deployment and 2 in my deployment.

My thoughts are this though; offensively yeah vets are super strong and versitile, I'm a huge advocate of this army. However I'm still just a marine, I get one turn to shoot and then I'm in a LOT of trouble. I still have very few models on the board with mediocre survivability.

That list about is also just lumping formations together sadly. No HQ and no Black spear and no ObSec.

Make no mistake I'm grateful for the advice, I'm just having trouble getting it to work. I use close to this list on the board already and I get to hit hard...once.....but it's never enough and I'll lose the two forward elements the next turn and then it's a slow loss.

I was simply thinking at this many point it would be better to take just one large and kitted team and pay less DP/termi tax, then bring in other elements to plug holes.

Cheers though, I've been refreshing all day for advice!

Qwerty2jam wrote:
Hey Trace,

I'm trying to do the maths here an the cheapest way i can do an aquilla kill team with 2x frag cannons that fits in a DP is 245 pts. At max I could get 4 of those squads and that 20 space marine and 4 terminators on the board, I could remove 1 DP, have 2 arrive full first turn and one empty second turn and have all units on the board turn 1, 2 in the enemies deployment and 2 in my deployment.

My thoughts are this though; offensively yeah vets are super strong and versitile, I'm a huge advocate of this army. However I'm still just a marine, I get one turn to shoot and then I'm in a LOT of trouble. I still have very few models on the board with mediocre survivability.

That list about is also just lumping formations together sadly. No HQ and no Black spear and no ObSec.

Make no mistake I'm grateful for the advice, I'm just having trouble getting it to work. I use close to this list on the board already and I get to hit hard...once.....but it's never enough and I'll lose the two forward elements the next turn and then it's a slow loss.

I was simply thinking at this many point it would be better to take just one large and kitted team and pay less DP/termi tax, then bring in other elements to plug holes.

Cheers though, I've been refreshing all day for advice!

You're right. They are very expensive for what they give you, but making a large kitted team isn't going to alleviate that weakness, it's only going to make it worse. Storm shields don't help you survive mass shooting. You're not going to get a decent squad of DW for less than 250-300, it's just the nature of the beast with 22 pt marines.

Perhaps you should consider doing a vanilla marine CAD or formation for tac marines/scouts if you want more bodies?

Skyhammer is a good way to get 30 more marines for ~700~1000 pts, but that won't fit into a 1k DW list.

I think you might be best served running a CAD with ML2 Libby and 3x10 vets, with 4x combi per squad in drop pods. That setup is 980, so you could flex a little on equip. Allows you to combat squad down into 6 squads with 2 combis each, lets you alpha, lets you hit hard. You could swap 1 squad from combis to 2x frag cannons.

The strength of DW is offensive shooting, not durability.

The real question is....is the offensive shooting enough to hurt the enemy so as they cannot overcome the army's lack of durability.

My main army before this has been an Imperial Fist/s/SOT drop pod army. I'm bringing down 5 drop pods turn 1, 50 marines. Then 4 more pods, with a dev squad on the board.

It's been a fun, effective army, but not an overpowering, win everytime list. But it had good durability ( until I met 6th edition eldar wraithguard with flame weapons and wave serpents).

So, as a point of comparison, my drop pod DW army is about 50 or so guys, 40 less than the IF's. Is the firepower of 50 DW guys that much better than 90 IF's? Can I wipe out enough of my enemy to overcome having fewer models?

I'm no math hammer expert, but here are some musings.
10 IF guys vs 10 DW guys, short range. SOT rules for the If. 20 bolter shots, 12 hits, 8 misses, then with rerolls you get another 6 hits for a total of 18 hits. That's 9 wounds, maybe 3 fails. So 3 dead.
10DW guys vs 10 IF guys, short range. 20 bolter shots, 12 hits, we'll say of the 8 misses 4 of them are 1's, so 4 rerolls, 3 more hits. 15 total.
Now, if we went with the S4, AP3 rounds, that's 7-8 dead IFMarines. If we went with the wounds on 2's rounds, thats 4-5 dead.



BUT....winning is not done soley through the use of offensive fire power. You need more units to sieze objectives, you need to be able to take and survive a punch from the enemy. That's where a larger force has an advantage.

So the more accurate matchup above would be 10 DW guys vs 20 IF guys, roughly, since the IF has more bodies and units. And firepower wise, they then almost match in terms of 6 vs 8 dead marines scored for the two sides, give or take.

So roughly, if we have double the number of Imperial Fists, we still don't match the potential of the DW. And we're not even including the different special weapons. But, losing 6 guys hurts the DW more than losing 8 IF's.

You can still buy the transports for your units in the black spear since the basis is veterans. Will help give you some additional cheap durability and additional units.

General Hobbs wrote:

The real question is....is the offensive shooting enough to hurt the enemy so as they cannot overcome the army's lack of durability.

My main army before this has been an Imperial Fist/s/SOT drop pod army. I'm bringing down 5 drop pods turn 1, 50 marines. Then 4 more pods, with a dev squad on the board.

It's been a fun, effective army, but not an overpowering, win everytime list. But it had good durability ( until I met 6th edition eldar wraithguard with flame weapons and wave serpents).

So, as a point of comparison, my drop pod DW army is about 50 or so guys, 40 less than the IF's. Is the firepower of 50 DW guys that much better than 90 IF's? Can I wipe out enough of my enemy to overcome having fewer models?

I'm no math hammer expert, but here are some musings.
10 IF guys vs 10 DW guys, short range. SOT rules for the If. 20 bolter shots, 12 hits, 8 misses, then with rerolls you get another 6 hits for a total of 18 hits. That's 9 wounds, maybe 3 fails. So 3 dead.
10DW guys vs 10 IF guys, short range. 20 bolter shots, 12 hits, we'll say of the 8 misses 4 of them are 1's, so 4 rerolls, 3 more hits. 15 total.
Now, if we went with the S4, AP3 rounds, that's 7-8 dead IFMarines. If we went with the wounds on 2's rounds, thats 4-5 dead.



BUT....winning is not done soley through the use of offensive fire power. You need more units to sieze objectives, you need to be able to take and survive a punch from the enemy. That's where a larger force has an advantage.

So the more accurate matchup above would be 10 DW guys vs 20 IF guys, roughly, since the IF has more bodies and units. And firepower wise, they then almost match in terms of 6 vs 8 dead marines scored for the two sides, give or take.

So roughly, if we have double the number of Imperial Fists, we still don't match the potential of the DW. And we're not even including the different special weapons. But, losing 6 guys hurts the DW more than losing 8 IF's.

This brings up the crux of the problem with DW.

DW is 100% a honeyd*ck codex. There are so many cool bells and whistles, but in reality, the workhorse is the basic vet. A handful of cheap upgrades (Combi weapons) can give a squad enough extra punch to take down some hard targets, but aside from that, there's not a whole lot of good upgrades. In most situations, you're just better off with more bodies. Like you pointed out, while the DW does the damage of basically 2x the number of tac marines, they're also half the wounds and half the board coverage.

Frag cannons are really strong, but they're also really expensive. 2 lascannon shots at 12" is nice, but you're putting a 47 point marine directly on top of your opponent. A grav dev from skyhammer is only 49 points. The template is quite strong, but is it something an army that has armywide ignores cover really needs to pay so much for? The things DW will have trouble killing are exactly what Grav excels at, GC, SHV, anything that needs low AP high ROF. The double templates are definitely strong, but I'm not convinced they fill a role that particularly needs filling.

All the melee upgrades are a waste. Honor Guard are 25 points for 2+ and a BP+PW, one of the most cost efficient melee units in the game. Why would you want to start at 37 points just for a power weapon?

Infernus is cool, but way too many points.

Heavy Flamer is a legit option, although it falls into the same category as the frag cannon in my eyes.

Storm Shields are almost half the cost of a marine, while only increasing survivability by 66% in situations where the weapon is AP2/3, and you do not have a cover save.

Stalkers are a decent choice. Compare 5 vets with 10 scouts. 135 vs 120. 10 special ammo sniper rounds vs 10 sniper rounds. 5 wounds vs 10 wounds. Standard marine vs infiltrate and scout. 3+ vs 4+. I feel like stalkers are moderately more damaging while being moderately more fragile. Turning a stalker team into a formation makes it even less cost efficient just to pick up rerolls on the wounds. Again, honeyd*cking.

In my opinion, the best upgrades for vets are combis to give them a bit more oomph and flexibility without removing their SA. Frag cannons, heavy flamers and stalkers are viable in specific roles, but can easily eat up points without paying off. Melee upgrades are a complete waste, beyond maybe a single power weapon or fist in a vanilla 10 man squad just to keep them from getting overrun by something like a riptide in assault.

It seems like keeping our squads lean, and allying in SM for scouts or skyhammer is probably our best bet. Allying in tac marines wouldn't be bad, but if we want bodies just for the sake of bodies, scouts are particularly good at that, especially with their dirt cheap LSS. Skyhammer gives us a big oomph on turn 1/2, as well as some moderately priced bodies (Assault marines), and access to cheaper heavies (With relentless!).

ALSO!

Why the hell can we take grav guns but not combi-grav? That's trash.

I've been thinking the same thing about combi weapons vs heavy/special weapons.

My issue is I want to bring a pure DW/OX army, without a chapter's marines as allies.

Adding OX Henchmen squads should go a long way to putting lots of extra bodies on the field for durability. Acolytes can be REALLY cheap, and Crusaders are a much cheaper way of bringing Storm Shields to play than putting them on DW Vets.

Well I got me deathwatch sphess mahreens together, and wanna see how they run for a local ITC tournament. I already faced a 1500 super daemonkin and friends list and got murked when playing casual without objectives. But manage to kill a greater daemon and a pile of korn dawgs and bloodletters. So here is a list I got, please give tips/advice:

ps. no allies, single cad, no formations.

+++ DW Tourney List 1 CAD (1500pts) +++

++ Deathwatch: Codex (2016) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1500pts) ++

+ HQ (205pts) +

Watch Captain (205pts) [The Beacon Angelis]
··Rules: And They Shall Know no Fear, Independant Character, Mission Tactics
··Artificer Armour [Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer]

+ Elites (200pts) +

Terminators (100pts)
··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]

··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]


Terminators (100pts)
··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]

··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]


+ Troops (1015pts) +

Veterans (195pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Rhino [Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]


Veterans (195pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Rhino [Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]


Veterans (195pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Rhino [Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]


Veterans (205pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Drop Pod [Locator Beacon, Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Storm Shield]


Veterans (225pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Drop Pod [Locator Beacon, Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Storm Shield]


+ Fast Attack (80pts) +

Bikers (40pts)
··Biker [Chainsword, Deathwatch Teleport Homer, Twin-Linked Boltgun]


Bikers (40pts)
··Biker [Chainsword, Deathwatch Teleport Homer, Twin-Linked Boltgun]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So the idea behind this list, is having one pod go in @ turn 1 to take out whatever scary super heavy. The metal boxes to go forward with marines to cap points. Bikes act as beacon for suicide termies and grav pod to come in turn 2/3/4; also as suicide units to eat overwatch and impede enemy movements. With 2 mobile locator beacons on bikes, pods with beacons, and captain with angelis, i can drop the termies and grav pod where it needs to go without scattering. If the captain runs into some crazy deathstars I can just teleport other units to him.

Thoughts?

General Hobbs wrote:


I've been thinking the same thing about combi weapons vs heavy/special weapons.

My issue is I want to bring a pure DW/OX army, without a chapter's marines as allies.

I'd say combis are even better for pure DW army, because of their cost vs the heavies, you can run more squads. An 1850 list can fit 5x10 man squads with 4x combi each in a pod, then grab a few solo bikes/termies/vv for ob grabbing. Could sub 4 combis for 2 frags in a unit, since they're assault 2, it would only be marginally more expensive.

Adding OX Henchmen squads should go a long way to putting lots of extra bodies on the field for durability. Acolytes can be REALLY cheap, and Crusaders are a much cheaper way of bringing Storm Shields to play than putting them on DW Vets.

Could do cheap acolyte units with coteaz to spam out some chimeras. Give you a bit more shooting and some ob sec. Good thinking.

Well I got me deathwatch sphess mahreens together, and wanna see how they run for a local ITC tournament. I already faced a 1500 super daemonkin and friends list and got murked when playing casual without objectives. But manage to kill a greater daemon and a pile of korn dawgs and bloodletters. So here is a list I got, please give tips/advice:

ps. no allies, single cad, no formations.

+++ DW Tourney List 1 CAD (1500pts) +++

++ Deathwatch: Codex (2016) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1500pts) ++

+ HQ (205pts) +

Watch Captain (205pts) [The Beacon Angelis]
··Rules: And They Shall Know no Fear, Independant Character, Mission Tactics
··Artificer Armour [Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer]

+ Elites (200pts) +

Terminators (100pts)
··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]

··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]


Terminators (100pts)
··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]

··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]


+ Troops (1015pts) +

Veterans (195pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Rhino [Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]


Veterans (195pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Rhino [Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]


Veterans (195pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Rhino [Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]


Veterans (205pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Drop Pod [Locator Beacon, Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Storm Shield]


Veterans (225pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Drop Pod [Locator Beacon, Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Storm Shield]


+ Fast Attack (80pts) +

Bikers (40pts)
··Biker [Chainsword, Deathwatch Teleport Homer, Twin-Linked Boltgun]


Bikers (40pts)
··Biker [Chainsword, Deathwatch Teleport Homer, Twin-Linked Boltgun]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So the idea behind this list, is having one pod go in @ turn 1 to take out whatever scary super heavy. The metal boxes to go forward with marines to cap points. Bikes act as beacon for suicide termies and grav pod to come in turn 2/3/4; also as suicide units to eat overwatch and impede enemy movements. With 2 mobile locator beacons on bikes, pods with beacons, and captain with angelis, i can drop the termies and grav pod where it needs to go without scattering. If the captain runs into some crazy deathstars I can just teleport other units to him.

Thoughts?

That's a pretty solid list. Not going overkill on the frags, 2 per squad seems fair. I assume you're doing the 2x Term meltas as a sort of termicide and something that can bully cheap troops? Only concern is the typical DW concern, very low on bodies. Also, not sure on the Rhinos. Maybe they work in your meta, but I'm a huge cheerleader for team drop pod. Although, mixing it up means you never end up with much of your army hanging out in reserves refusing to participate. I might swap 1 rhino to a DP to get a DP frag cannon squad. Then you have 3 pods, all with different specialties so you can get 2 turn 1 and leave the lest efficient one out. Do you use LOS to keep the Captain up? Even a 2+/3++ is pretty fragile to weight of fire on a T4 W3 body.


Edit:

Other news. Just finished a game vs CSM/Orks. He ran a very "fun" list, with 4x Noise Marine squads in rhinos, a custom lord, 2 warbosses in MA with 10 boys each in 2 trukks, a forgefiend, a heldrake and the ork fighter. He gave me turn 1 and castled in the corner. I dropped my pods all around him and locked him in place. He went down swinging, but he simply couldn't get out to get objectives, I wiped out the lootaz and forgefiend turn 1, then focused on the warbosses. With those down, he had almost no reliable way to remove my drop pods (Just melta bombs on sgts), or my dread. We called it at the start of his turn 3, he had lost 3 rhinos, 1 noise marine squad, both warboss trukks and squads, forgefiend, all 3 loota squads. I lost the flamer aquila team, the multi-melta team, lascannon team down to 1 LC and sgt, 1 assault squad, 1 assault squad down to 3 guys. Melta and Plasma aquila teams were at 100%, although combis were spent. All drop pods alive, forming a ring keeping him in a quarter (quarters deployment) of the map.

Lessons: This time I was more careful with combi placement, in case they didn't fire right off the rip. Used shotguns and flamers to really rip up boyz in their trukks (d6 hits each on the open topped). If you plan for it, you can possible render an opponent incapable of dealing with a dread in a section of the board, if at all. Fliers are hell to deal with, simply do not have the tools. Found an error in my list, could exchange 4 lascannons for 3 grav cannons, think that's what I will do for my first list revision. The weight of fire should make a big difference vs MC/GC, kind of a wash vs vehicles.Maybe I'll eventually swap to UM for the real OP gak.

I really wish they had included decals for more chapters. I get that they couldn't have everything molded, but I need a right pauldron Ravenwing symbol for one of my bikers. I am making most of the Marines in the iconic Chapters (A VV Blood Angel, Deathwing Terminator, a Raptors Sniper, and a White Scars Biker), and so I want to get a Ravenwing Biker, but that is a lot easier said than done.

So I am trying to decide what I want to do with my Frag Cannon Aquila Team. On one hand, I want to pair it with my two Assault Cannon Terminators (the Deathwing Terminator and a Space Wolf Termnator), but I am also considering a pair of Heavy Flamer+Meltafist Terminators (Salamanders and Blood Angels). Which is the better option? The Assault Cannon Terminators seem more useful due to Rending, but the HF/Meltafist Terminators are pretty good as well.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So I am trying to decide what I want to do with my Frag Cannon Aquila Team. On one hand, I want to pair it with my two Assault Cannon Terminators (the Deathwing Terminator and a Space Wolf Termnator), but I am also considering a pair of Heavy Flamer+Meltafist Terminators (Salamanders and Blood Angels). Which is the better option? The Assault Cannon Terminators seem more useful due to Rending, but the HF/Meltafist Terminators are pretty good as well.

More than 2 frag cannons in a squad feels like overkill to me, but if you intend to put more weapons with it, I'd go with AC as they're very flexible guns. Wouldn't bother with the HF, if you're using frag cannons for flaming, you should kill out of the template reach with 4 templates. Meltas would be a decent option if you intend to use the frag cannons for the short range heavy shooting, but then they're wasted on hordes. AC is solid against anything, so they keep the unit from being specialized when tied with frag cannons. Still, you're talking at least 70 pts in upgrades on one squad with just 2 frag cannons and an assault cannon, that's a big investment.

Speaking of investments, looking at my book a bit more, I realized something interesting. You can exchange your bolter for a melta or flamer, and your [edit] CCW for a bolter. While you lose out on the shotgun, you get the same firing capabilities as a combi without the restriction of 1 shot, and in the case of flamers, saving you 5 pts per model.

Yup, meltas + bolters mean they can fight just about anything. (or grav guns/plas guns instead, but then bolters are nearly pointless)

Deathwatch Marines don't have bolt pistols, except for HQ's and Vanguards

Excuse me, they can exchange their CCW.

I am curious why you guys are saying that 4x Frag Cannons is a bit much. Their purpose is to go after heavy infantry and MC/GC in my army. Perhaps getting them Split Fire wouldn't be the worst idea though.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am curious why you guys are saying that 4x Frag Cannons is a bit much. Their purpose is to go after heavy infantry and MC/GC in my army. Perhaps getting them Split Fire wouldn't be the worst idea though.

Because you're talking about making a unit that costs 235 points for 5 T4 3+ wounds, and can easily end up overkilling their target, or failing to kill it's target. 8 shots, 6 hits (Assuming rerolls of 1), 5 wounds (Because no wound reroll as no formation), 3 unsaved after inv/Fnp. So, you're going to need 2 of these units to guarantee you kill a riptide. That's 540 pts with drop pods included, to place 10 marines 12" away from the enemy and remove one of their heavy targets. A 5 grav command squad will average better results for 2/3 the cost. It's simply not efficient. Grav cannons are significantly better at the same job. 30 points less you get 20 shots versus 8 shots, at 24" (Assuming you took skyhammer for relentless). Frag cannons shine at being flexible and powerful at two roles, putting two in a squad means you're not wasting a lot of points on the veteran status (8 points per marine just to be deathwatch), and you're still getting a lot of damage output from the heavies (Essentially 4 heavy weapons on 2 bodies).

What happens if you take 4 frag cannons and they bubble wrap their prime targets? What if they have interceptor or Coteaz? What if they have a stealth/shrouded bubble?

Basically the problem with running 4 frags is that you're putting a lot of eggs in one basket, and that basket is ALPHA STRIKE. Why not take 2 squads with 2 each? You become more flexible, both squads put out a lot of shooting, you can hold twice as many objectives, you get more bodies taking advantage of their special ammo (A big part of their price tag), etc.

We're not saying 4 frag cannons in a unit is inherently bad. It has the potential to do a TON of damage. Imagine dropping that on a deathstar unit that got a 1" consolidate out of a combat? 8 S6 rending flamers could annihilate a compact unit.

But it's playing the all or nothing game, which can often end in heartbreak.

Kill Team is all good and all, with all these units slapped together and getting all these special rules and re-rolls. Just had a crazy thought, why not have multiple CADs, all troops take rhino or pods, take whatever HQ you want. Take termies, bikes, vanguard vets, all in pairs or singles. Now you have all these MSUs running all over the table and the opponent will not be able to focus on anything lol. Just have like 6 single Marine bike units all go in some directions arms with power weapons and harassing the crap outta the enemy. Or have like 6 single unit termies deep striking via locator beacon and meltafisting every vehicle they come across. Or have like 6~9 single vanguard vet jumping all over the table with thunderhammer or powerfist for the lulz. You may say the opponents can take down many of these single units in one turn, that maybe true, but if you have rhino rush or drop pod in his/her face, they would be trying to deal with mass meltas/gravs/frag cannons on their home turf and ignore some of your skirmishers.

Here is my list:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++ Deathwatch Multiple MSUs (2000pts) +++

++ Deathwatch: Codex (2016) (Combined Arms Detachment) (790pts) ++

+ HQ (205pts) +

Watch Captain (205pts) [The Beacon Angelis]
··Artificer Armour [Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer]

+ Troops (390pts) +

Veterans (195pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Drop Pod [Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]
··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]
··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]


Veterans (195pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Drop Pod [Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]
··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]
··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]


+ Fast Attack (195pts) +

Corvus Blackstar (195pts) [Blackstar Cluster Launcher, Ceramite Plating, Four Stormstrike Missles, Infernum Halo Launcher, Locator Beacon, Twin-linked Lascannon]


++ Deathwatch: Codex (2016) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1210pts) ++

+ HQ (150pts) +

Librarian (150pts) [Mastery Level 2, The Beacon Angelis]
··Terminator Armour [Force Axe, Storm Bolter]

+ Elites (200pts) +

Terminators (100pts)
··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]
··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]


Terminators (100pts)
··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]
··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]


+ Troops (580pts) +

Veterans (365pts) >>>>Combat Squadding
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Drop Pod [Locator Beacon, Storm Bolter]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]
··Veteran [Deathwatch Shotgun, Storm Shield]
··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]
··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]
··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]


Veterans (215pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Drop Pod [Storm Bolter]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]
··Watch Sergeant [Deathwatch Shotgun, Storm Shield]


+ Fast Attack (280pts) +

Bikers (35pts)
··Biker [Twin-Linked Boltgun]
····Power Weapon [Power Maul]

Bikers (35pts)
··Biker [Twin-Linked Boltgun]
····Power Weapon [Power Maul]

Corvus Blackstar (210pts) [Blackstar Cluster Launcher, Ceramite Plating, Infernum Halo Launcher, Locator Beacon, Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-linked Blackstar Rocket Launcher]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Just a thought....for the lulz, the face you see when they hear you have 9 individual bikes running around the table or 6 individual powerfist welding vanguard vets jumping around.

I have to bring up the point of this one relic... The Banebolts of Eryxia

Ok, there is a profile for use in a Stalker Pattern Botlgun... but no one can take this relic, who can ALSO take a "special weapon" (yes, it's a special weapon and not a ranged weapon... so terrible).

Up until I re-read that, I was using a Purgatus Killteam (stalker all bolters, libby with stalker bolter and the banebolts, and a terminator with cyclone missiles) to snipe-out and instant-death characters (with re-rolls, fearless, and psychic buffs) in units... it was very fun, fluffy, and really cool!

However, I realized I was "cheating"... and now I seem to be stumped because I can't give the libby the stalker boltgun, but can't give anyone else the banebolts... why is there a profile on that relic for the stalker boltgun?!?!

Maddening GW!!! Someone help! Is there any way to actually use the banebotls in a stalker boltgun?!

I think stalker bolters are definitely far superior to regular bolters, but only if you can get in range for "free".

How do we give a squad scout or infiltrate?

I don't usually play imperial armies, all I know of is equipping the liber heresius on an inquisitor and have him join a squad.

Yeah, that's one way. Another is to ally with Raptors, and use Lias Issodon (their named FW Chapter Master) as the warlord, who can give somewhere around 3 "friendly" units infiltrate (he comes stock with the Master of Ambush warlord trait). He also has a special ammo bolter, so would fit nicely in with the Deathwatch. However, that's a pretty large tax... but an army of Raptors, lots of Scouts with rending bolters, and some allied Deathwatch would be pretty cool!

A list that I was playing around with was.

+++ New Roster (1495pts) +++

++ Deathwatch: Codex (2016) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1415pts) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Mission Tactics [Dominatus, Furor, Malleus, Purgatus , Vanator]

Warlord Traits [1 Bane of Monstrosities, 2 Lord of Hidden Knowledge, 3 Castellan of the Black Vault, 4 Bringer of the Red Dawn, 5 Vigilance Incarnate, 6 Master of the Voidhunt]

+ HQ (90pts) +

Librarian (90pts) [Dominus Aegis, Mastery Level 1]
Power Armour [Boltgun, Force Stave]

+ Elites (130pts) +

Terminators (65pts)
Terminator [Cyclone Missle Launcher, Storm Bolter]
Power Weapon [Power Lance]

Terminators (65pts)
Terminator [Cyclone Missle Launcher, Storm Bolter]
Power Weapon [Power Lance]

+ Troops (925pts) +

Veterans (195pts)
Rhino [Storm Bolter]
Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]
Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

Veterans (195pts)
Rhino [Storm Bolter]
Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]
Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

Veterans (195pts)
Rhino [Storm Bolter]
Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Chainsword, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]
Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Chainsword, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

Veterans (340pts)
Corvus Blackstar [Auspex Array, Blackstar Cluster Launcher, Ceramite Plating, Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-linked Blackstar Rocket Launcher]
Veteran [Boltgun, Stalker Pattern Bolter]
Veteran [Boltgun, Stalker Pattern Bolter]
Veteran [Boltgun, Stalker Pattern Bolter]
Veteran [Boltgun, Stalker Pattern Bolter]
Veteran [Boltgun, Stalker Pattern Bolter]

+ Fast Attack (270pts) +

Bikers (90pts)
Biker [Chainsword, Twin-Linked Boltgun]
Biker [Chainsword, Twin-Linked Boltgun]
Biker [Chainsword, Twin-Linked Boltgun]

Bikers (90pts)
Biker [Chainsword, Twin-Linked Boltgun]
Biker [Chainsword, Twin-Linked Boltgun]
Biker [Chainsword, Twin-Linked Boltgun]

Bikers (90pts)
Biker [Chainsword, Twin-Linked Boltgun]
Biker [Chainsword, Twin-Linked Boltgun]
Biker [Chainsword, Twin-Linked Boltgun]

++ Fortifications and Stronghold Assault (2013) (Fortification Detachment) (80pts) ++

+ Fortification (80pts) +

Imperial Bunker (80pts) [Escape Hatch]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

Feel free to rip it apart

 xTHExCLINCHERx wrote:
Yeah, that's one way. Another is to ally with Raptors, and use Lias Issodon (their named FW Chapter Master) as the warlord, who can give somewhere around 3 "friendly" units infiltrate (he comes stock with the Master of Ambush warlord trait). He also has a special ammo bolter, so would fit nicely in with the Deathwatch. However, that's a pretty large tax... but an army of Raptors, lots of Scouts with rending bolters, and some allied Deathwatch would be pretty cool!

Thanks for this. Yeah it might be cool to scout everything up and park your units in razorbacks. That could be good defense when combined with the Aegis Dominus for a juicy 4+ save, maybe toss in sanctuary as well. 90% of your army scouts and does this. Maybe the rest are a small squad to tarpit troublesome targets (high leathality).

I think for that list for the most part you would be better splitting it into a double cad and dropping each bike unit to one man units. You need as many units as you can get with this army just for objectives and board presence.

I also would not bother with the corvus unless you really like it. You are spending a lot of points on it for its transport abilities but are not using them.

Is the Dominus Aegis good for throwing on Stalker Boltgun Squads (through an attached HQ)? Seems like a no-Brainerd. A Divination(for shooting and defense) Librarian with the Dominus Aegis seems like a really good option. Or even one with Geomancy for the ignores cover and shoot through walls power.

Also, after converting a HF/Meltafist Terminator (from a DV Terminator), it really makes me long for an Infernus Heavy Bolter on Terminators. It would be so cool.

Can I get some critique on a 1,000 point list for a doubles tourney?

I can post it in the list sub forum but since this was purely DW I was hoping to get some good advice from other DW players.

My teammate is taking Inquisition. Mostly likely an inquisitor or two and a punch of warbands with 2 monkeys each in chimeras.

Here is my list:

CAD:

Librarian
Level 2
beacon angelis(not sure if I need this)

Veterans x7
5 with bolters
2 with fragcannons
Drop Pod

Veterans x7
5 with bolters
2 with fragcannons
Drop Pod

Veterans x7
5 with bolters
2 with fragcannons
Drop Pod

Bikers x2

Bikers x2

Obviously the idea here is to use the bikers as annoyances or objective capturers/deniers.

My guys drop down in the enemies face, obviously taking the brunt of the fire.. while my teammate tries to shoot everything with his inquisition.\

Thanks for any feedback or pointers.

Solid list,

looks just like standard sternguard suicide drops, but yeah, take shotgun/boltgun combo for regular vets, 7 templates for overwatch is gnarly!

also, meltafist works wonders

and iam just gonna leave this here for all who sees this:

 fr3ddy wrote:
Solid list,

looks just like standard sternguard suicide drops, but yeah, take shotgun/boltgun combo for regular vets, 7 templates for overwatch is gnarly!

also, meltafist works wonders

and iam just gonna leave this here for all who sees this:

is that offical from forge world? I notice the link is on spiky bits

It is official. It just hasn't materialized.

I cant wait for actual FW confirmation. That'll be the moment I retirr the corvus in my black spear for a real boy Dread.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I cant wait for actual FW confirmation. That'll be the moment I retirr the corvus in my black spear for a real boy Dread.

Indeed. A Deredeo or Contemptor Mortis will go a long way in my army. But I actually like my Corvus Blackstar, so I will be keeping it for now.

Not that I don't like the Corvus, but being able to use the relic to teleport a dread in to combat T1 is better than a possible turn 3 or later Flyer, imo

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Not that I don't like the Corvus, but being able to use the relic to teleport a dread in to combat T1 is better than a possible turn 3 or later Flyer, imo

Can't assault after deep striking. No turn 1 assaults.

Didn't say assault. I suppose combat was too vague, though. Even bringing one into FIRING RANGE after hiding somewhere safe, feels more reliable than the Corvus on average.

I just realized the chapter icons in the Death Masque kit are backwards. Are the normal Deathwatch kits the same way?

zend wrote:
I just realized the chapter icons in the Death Masque kit are backwards. Are the normal Deathwatch kits the same way?

It's so that any symbols with a "facing" like an animal or such are always facing forward toward the enemy when placed on the opposite shoulder from normal (right side) due to getting the DW shoulder pad on the left. If they simply put the shoulder pad on the other shoulder, the animal would be facing backwards in cowardice.

And yeah, there is no difference between those sprues and what you get in the separate boxes.

zend wrote:
I just realized the chapter icons in the Death Masque kit are backwards. Are the normal Deathwatch kits the same way?

Are you talking about the shoulder pauldrons? Yes they are "backwards". In actuality, they are facing the correct direction for Deathwatch.

Guys, I have a few questions here.

1. Everybody wants use The Beacon Angelis in Drop Pod and teleport one unit at the first turn. But RAW is saying "at the start of any friendly Movement phase". But "deep strike" is on the start of movement phase. So basicaly you are going wrong, because teleporting an unit is after the start of movement phase. Or am I missing something?

2. I am playing mainly by ETC rules, but isn't in GW rules something, that you have to have at least one unit on the bord, during deployment? Because in this case I can not follow your fully Drop Pod lists :-( And put on the table 1 Dread or 1 unit of bikes/veterans is very risky.

3. Little noob question. Let's say I want Venator kill team. I need to take 1 unit of Veterans, 1 unit of bikes and 0-1 lib/term/vanguard. Bikes and Veterans have to be together? Because it is really loosing mobility.

Thank you for your answers. I am little lost here.

1. Drop pods and normal "teleportation" type deep strikes happen at the same time. The controlling player chooses the order in which they drop their things.

2. I don't know about etc, but the official rules state you must have a unit of yours on the table by the end of your turn. END. That means you can start your turn with nothing on the board and be fine. You just need to have something at the end of your own turn.

3. They form a single unit for all purposes so yes they need to be together at all times and only on death do they part.

For number two you need something on the table at the end of the game tun, not necessarily your turn so that is something to consider.

Anyone ever try running Librarian heavy? I ran a fun test game of Blood Angels (Using their new stuff) and I brought Deathwatch for the first time at 2500 points. I had 7 Librarians in 7 in my force and they added a lot to my army by allowing me to adapt to his list type via choosing my psychic power disciplines.

Deathwatch seem to be able to get a lot of them on the table so what are your guys' thoughts on them? Anyone have any luck with bringing like 4+ librarians to a more reasonable 1850 point game?

This is the response I got from Forgeworld regarding when we will find out what units we can use from IA2. It looks like they forgot their own frickin' advertisement.

we don't currently have an FAQ or "official" list for what vehicles the death watch can take as Im sure you are aware it is a very recent book and we currently have IA volume 2 which was produce a few years ago, for now We suggest to have the gentleman's agreement over what would be suitable for a "legal" death watch force or failing this you can always go unbound and take nearly anything you want.

At the moment we have not been given any indication that there will be a PDF or update for the official lists but I am sure that with the next update of any appropriate books or models the death watch stamp will be included for any appropriate units.

Thanks again

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Anyone ever try running Librarian heavy? I ran a fun test game of Blood Angels (Using their new stuff) and I brought Deathwatch for the first time at 2500 points. I had 7 Librarians in 7 in my force and they added a lot to my army by allowing me to adapt to his list type via choosing my psychic power disciplines.

Deathwatch seem to be able to get a lot of them on the table so what are your guys' thoughts on them? Anyone have any luck with bringing like 4+ librarians to a more reasonable 1850 point game?

I run four of them.

One to try and snag phase form for a big missile launcher death-star, three others with frag cannon squads to either give divination or extra psychic dakka.

I'm a fan, at least on paper.

Modified my list slightly, got a game tonight.

Black Spear (Still on the fence about this formation)

Libby ML2, Beacon Angelis

Aquila Kill Team
5 Vets, 2 combiplas, 5 shotguns
2 Terms, 2 assault cannons

Aquila Kill Team
5 Vets, 2 Meltas+bolters, 3 bolter+shotgun
2 Terms, 2 Meltafists

Aquila Kill Team
5 Vets, 2 Frag Cannons
2 Terms

Ancient
Dreadnought, Assault Cannon

Skyhammer
2x10 Assault Marines, Vet Sgt w/ PS+MB
5 Devs, 4x MM
5 Devs, 3x Grav

So, I dropped all of the flamers from 1 squad, and the HF off the dread to give that squad 2 Frag cannons. I think it will make the squad more flexible.

I also swapped out 4 lascannons and the extra marine I accidentally had in 1 squad for 3 grav cannons. I'd love to fit a fourth, but I'm not sure where I could trim 35 points efficiently, and 3 is still a lot of shooting.

Other thing I've been pondering is dropping 1-3 assault marines from each squad to free up some points, but, I like having the option to combat squad them. I was considering dropping everything but the melta bombs to put an eviscerator in each squad. I'd give up 2 base attacks with my power weapon, but I'd get S8 and armorbane, although only on one attack. My goal for the AM is to bully scoring units or wreck vehicles by glancing them to death (Last game I used both in tandem to assault a rhino and glance it down, so no one could get out and were all destroyed). Not sure swapping to the evisc would make them better at their job, but it would make them better for killing things like broadsides and dreads.

Any thoughts?

I think you want 10x dev instead of 10x assault marines, combat squadding devs does more for you in regards to targets.

I have found for the black spear it is better to keep the squads cheap and have more of them instead of more points in fewer units.

 Leth wrote:
I think you want 10x dev instead of 10x assault marines, combat squadding devs does more for you in regards to targets.

I have found for the black spear it is better to keep the squads cheap and have more of them instead of more points in fewer units.

Why would I want 5 bolter marines over 5 assault marines that can charge the turn they land? 5 assault marines aren't a threat to anything substantial, but they will kill most min sized objective holding units, and will definitely keep things locked up. I'd take 5 bolter marines over 5 assault marines for... holding objectives?

If I want lots of cheap squads I'd roll CAD for the obsec. What is the advantage of running MSU in Black Spear?

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I think you want 10x dev instead of 10x assault marines, combat squadding devs does more for you in regards to targets.

I have found for the black spear it is better to keep the squads cheap and have more of them instead of more points in fewer units.

Why would I want 5 bolter marines over 5 assault marines that can charge the turn they land? 5 assault marines aren't a threat to anything substantial, but they will kill most min sized objective holding units, and will definitely keep things locked up. I'd take 5 bolter marines over 5 assault marines for... holding objectives?

If I want lots of cheap squads I'd roll CAD for the obsec. What is the advantage of running MSU in Black Spear?

Devs pin/prevent overwatch for the AM, and can at separate targets than your grav cannon squads (i.e. grav cannons shoot at a WK, bolters shoot at a squad of jetbikes, which then can be charged by the AM)

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I think you want 10x dev instead of 10x assault marines, combat squadding devs does more for you in regards to targets.

I have found for the black spear it is better to keep the squads cheap and have more of them instead of more points in fewer units.

Why would I want 5 bolter marines over 5 assault marines that can charge the turn they land? 5 assault marines aren't a threat to anything substantial, but they will kill most min sized objective holding units, and will definitely keep things locked up. I'd take 5 bolter marines over 5 assault marines for... holding objectives?

If I want lots of cheap squads I'd roll CAD for the obsec. What is the advantage of running MSU in Black Spear?

Devs pin/prevent overwatch for the AM, and can shoot at other targets so your grav cannons won't be wasted.

I don't see any upside, honestly. The AM are assaulting things that shouldn't really be able to hurt them in return, and as BT ( I should have mentioned that), losing a model or two to overwatch benefits me from the rage.

I suppose you can try to pin shooting units that you're not going to assault (Broadsides), but I feel I'd be better off assaulting them.

EDIT:

Had my game. Same Chaos/Orks player as last time. He dropped sorcerer for a lord, dropped fliers to make boyz into ard boyz, MA warbosses into painboyz and mekboys. Added a havok squad.

Assault marines managed to surround his Warlord rhino and wreck it with a long charge range turn 1. Ignores cover shooting picked up 2 loota squads, other assault squad brought Havoks to 1 but they didn't run so I got to hide them from combat. Lost a lot of marines to doom sirens, and ard boyz really fethed my world up on the charge, but in the end I used multiple squads to split their attacks once they were locked and the terminators did work with the powerfists. Gravs did great, much better than lascannons. Not quite as good vs trukks or Rhinos, I'd say, but much more flexible and overall way better. Frag Cannons are more flexible, prefer them over the 2 flamers+2 heavy flamers, although only a small sample size of games to compare them. With the aquila team, they put out a lot of almost guaranteed wounds, and the rends are nice. Wish I still had HF on dread, but, seems to be worth it for the frags.

So what are the common sizes and builds for Kill-Teams?

I've been running that ten-man Aquila team in a drop pod so far and the results have been mixed. They tend to hit hard, but die the next turn when the rest of my opponent's army focuses on them.

That and there is a question of cost, given that 500pts are typically invested in a ten-man squad that usually dies quickly. So far I'm trying to rethink my approach to things.

Gree wrote:
So what are the common sizes and builds for Kill-Teams?

I've been running that ten-man Aquila team in a drop pod so far and the results have been mixed. They tend to hit hard, but die the next turn when the rest of my opponent's army focuses on them.

That and there is a question of cost, given that 500pts are typically invested in a ten-man squad that usually dies quickly. So far I'm trying to rethink my approach to things.

I've been doing 5 vets, 2 terminators, with 2 combis and 2 term weapons. Terminators can be used to tank, or you can try to shield them and keep them up to have powerfists floating around. They end up just shy of 300 pts, are pretty flexible and hit fairly hard.

Ay, mixed results? Go with MSUs, usually works better, if you can keep the point to ~250 / squad or less is better.

For positive results try these, worked for me, made the other player worry.

For anti-heavy infantry/superheavy/monsters and whatnot (whatevas kill team)
5 vets (all melta/boltgun or grav/boltgun, not combi), 2 termies with meltafist and cyclone missile. Deep strike near said target and boom goes the heavy thing
If assaulting out of land raider or corvus I used 4 vets (2 shotgun/boltgun, 2 frag cannon), 1 blackshield with giant hammer, Watch captain or Artemis, Termies with hammer/shield, and vanguard vets with shield or whatnots.

For general purpose (malleus, furor, dominatus, strategium)
5 vets (3 shotgun/boltgun, 2 frag cannon), 1~2 termies (meltafist, hammer/shield, whatever you want really), 1~2 bike (for split fire and doing the whole slinky effect while moving around and put up front of T5 rolls), 1~2 vanguard vet (reroll charges and whatnot), 0~1 HQ (for extra punchiness)

Ally with Skittarii for extra craziness, put any HQ with beacon angelis and scout with Ruststalkers, make enemy cry tears. Drop pod everywhere turn one, and with captain w/jump pack scouting with ruststalkers, guiding percision suicide termies and other deep strike from reserve.

 fr3ddy wrote:
Ay, mixed results? Go with MSUs, usually works better, if you can keep the point to ~250 / squad or less is better.

For positive results try these, worked for me, made the other player worry.

For anti-heavy infantry/superheavy/monsters and whatnot (whatevas kill team)
5 vets (all melta/boltgun or grav/boltgun, not combi), 2 termies with meltafist and cyclone missile. Deep strike near said target and boom goes the heavy thing
If assaulting out of land raider or corvus I used 4 vets (2 shotgun/boltgun, 2 frag cannon), 1 blackshield with giant hammer, Watch captain or Artemis, Termies with hammer/shield, and vanguard vets with shield or whatnots.

For general purpose (malleus, furor, dominatus, strategium)
5 vets (3 shotgun/boltgun, 2 frag cannon), 1~2 termies (meltafist, hammer/shield, whatever you want really), 1~2 bike (for split fire and doing the whole slinky effect while moving around and put up front of T5 rolls), 1~2 vanguard vet (reroll charges and whatnot), 0~1 HQ (for extra punchiness)


Ally with Skittarii for extra craziness, put any HQ with beacon angelis and scout with Ruststalkers, make enemy cry tears. Drop pod everywhere turn one, and with captain w/jump pack scouting with ruststalkers, guiding percision suicide termies and other deep strike from reserve.

1. Black Shields can't have giant hammers, unless you are referring to regular thunderhammers.
2. Bikers in squads.....You don't get to use the biker's T5 until all other models are equal to or less than the number of T4 or less models in the unit.

 fr3ddy wrote:
Ay, mixed results? Go with MSUs, usually works better, if you can keep the point to ~250 / squad or less is better.

For positive results try these, worked for me, made the other player worry.

For anti-heavy infantry/superheavy/monsters and whatnot (whatevas kill team)
5 vets (all melta/boltgun or grav/boltgun, not combi), 2 termies with meltafist and cyclone missile. Deep strike near said target and boom goes the heavy thing
If assaulting out of land raider or corvus I used 4 vets (2 shotgun/boltgun, 2 frag cannon), 1 blackshield with giant hammer, Watch captain or Artemis, Termies with hammer/shield, and vanguard vets with shield or whatnots.

For general purpose (malleus, furor, dominatus, strategium)
5 vets (3 shotgun/boltgun, 2 frag cannon), 1~2 termies (meltafist, hammer/shield, whatever you want really), 1~2 bike (for split fire and doing the whole slinky effect while moving around and put up front of T5 rolls), 1~2 vanguard vet (reroll charges and whatnot), 0~1 HQ (for extra punchiness)

Ally with Skittarii for extra craziness, put any HQ with beacon angelis and scout with Ruststalkers, make enemy cry tears. Drop pod everywhere turn one, and with captain w/jump pack scouting with ruststalkers, guiding percision suicide termies and other deep strike from reserve.

100% agreed on MSU. If you're not running the kill teams, small squads is most efficient. We don't pay a sgt tax, so the biggest decision to make is 10 man combat squad, vs 2x5 man. 2 squads gets 2 pods, but is always 4 kp. 2 squads can cover much more board, but also more chances to have bad luck with reserves and deep strike location. It's a pretty even trade, really depends on personal preference and what you need in your army.

I would highly reccomend not doing 5 specials, and 35 points of weapons on the termies. You can't fire the meltafist and the cyclone, you can only fire a storm bolter with the cyclone. Not only that, but the sheer cost of that squad. With meltas, you're talking 310 without a drop pod. 335 if you use gravs instead of meltas. You're quite likely to overkill whatever you shoot, except a Knight, which you're still not likely to kill. You'd probably have better luck landing 2x5 man squads with 4 meltas each on either side of a knight, so it can't use it's shield vs both.

That general purpose squad is going to be deep striking via black spear, or walking? Walking seems like way too many points for something so fragile. We 100% need to be deep striking most of our army, except perhaps for stalker squads and 1/2 man CML term squads.

Re: Knights....good players bubble wrap or place their knights and angle the shields so you can't sandwich them. The only remaining tactic is fire away from distance and hope he rolls low in the shields and you roll high on the penetration and damage shots. While dropping meltas is good against alot of armor, Knights, at least against the smart players, its not. ( you might still get a long shot on the Knight, but you'll be rolling 8+d6 only...)

General Hobbs wrote:


Re: Knights....good players bubble wrap or place their knights and angle the shields so you can't sandwich them. The only remaining tactic is fire away from distance and hope he rolls low in the shields and you roll high on the penetration and damage shots. While dropping meltas is good against alot of armor, Knights, at least against the smart players, its not. ( you might still get a long shot on the Knight, but you'll be rolling 8+d6 only...)

I wasn't saying that dropping melta teams is an effective way of dealing with knights, but that smaller, cheaper units are likely going to end up being more effective than plunking down one massive unit and hoping you get lucky.

That is true. I was referring to the tactic of getting a unit on both sides of the Knight and why it doesn't work.

Unless someone found a way to delay drop squads until turn 3....( 2 turns of movement/killing bubblewrap are probably the only way to clear a path....)

 fr3ddy wrote:
Ay, mixed results? Go with MSUs, usually works better, if you can keep the point to ~250 / squad or less is better.

I'll think about going MSU. That seems to fit the Deathwatch theme more.

 fr3ddy wrote:

Ally with Skittarii for extra craziness, put any HQ with beacon angelis and scout with Ruststalkers, make enemy cry tears. Drop pod everywhere turn one, and with captain w/jump pack scouting with ruststalkers, guiding percision suicide termies and other deep strike from reserve.

I'm primarily looking at the Deathwatch as an additional force to my vanilla Marines. I don't think I'd have the points to ally in Skittarii. Maybe when I expand my Deathwatch more.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

100% agreed on MSU. If you're not running the kill teams, small squads is most efficient.

I must admit I find the thought of running Aquilas quite attractive. I've been running Librarians with my sole one, but I've been thinking about switching to Terminators.

I'll try a regular squad of Veterans in an Allied Detachment, but I'm not sure I want to trade the Re-roll 1's for Objective Secured. That's more the job of the rest of my army.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

That general purpose squad is going to be deep striking via black spear, or walking? Walking seems like way too many points for something so fragile. We 100% need to be deep striking most of our army, except perhaps for stalker squads and 1/2 man CML term squads.

I can't be run a Black Spear. I don't have enough stuff for it. Ideally I just have a single squad acting as allies to my Imperial Fists. They typically go in a Drop Pod.

I did consider a big 10-Man Stalker squad that hides in a pieces of terrain with Bolster Defenses from a Techmarine. I have not yet tried out the Stalker bolters though.

If you just want an ally squad, run a single aquila kill team. Can throw a libby, 5 vets, 2 terms in a pod. Throw 2-4 special/heavies across the unit. Take Beacon Angelis if you have other stuff that needs accurate deep striking.

So I’ve been playing some games recently. The big 10-man Kill-Team isn’t really making it’s points back. I keep on running into the same scenario over and over again. They drop in, kill a squad and then get charged by multiple units in my opponent’s turn.

I'm increasingly convinced that MSU is probably the way to go with Deathwatch. Or at least with deep-striking units. I’ve been considering a 10-man Stalker squad that hangs back on an objective.

I believe I’ll be using Terminators in order to make my teams into Aquila formations instead of a Librarian. The Librarian is a good force multiplier but rather fragile and expensive to be on the front lines. I’m going to start experimenting with Hammernators to improve squad durability.

Purgatus Killteam has been a favorite of mine for a little while now:

Vets (5) - stalker boltgun x5, boltgun x5
Terminator - cyclone
Librarian - level 2, hope for phase form, or perfect timing, etc. (so many options).

That unit is really nice and if you DO get phaseform... oh man that's one scared HQ if you can expose them before this unit arrives from deepstrike, especially behind LoS blocking cover haha.

I think the best MSU killteam if you're just looking to fill a CAD's troop slots (so that you can sprinkle in single bike, TH/SS terminator, melta bomb vvet, etc. units) is:

(You're always gonna have to kill troops, and remember that means their dedicated transports too! so use these for trukks, rhinos, jetbikes, etc.)

Furor Kiltleam:
Vets (5) - pod, shotgun/bolter x3, frag cannon x2, terminator w/heavy flamer
(*and maybe fist/aux melta if you have the points, or a storm shield if you dont play on a lot of cover terrain)

I'm thinking of using the following as an ally to my guard force in a game this weekend, I like the load outs and think they will do a good job as a pinpoint elimination tool but it seems alot of points for three not that hard to kill units :/

Black Spear Strike Force
Watch Commander
1 Librarian ML:2, Terminator, Auspex, Meltabombs 125
Ancient
1 Venerable Dread Nihilus 135
Deathwatch Aquila Kill Team
1 Terminator Heavy Flamer, Meltafist 60
6 Veterans Srg, 2x Frag Cannon, 1x Storm Shield, 3x Shotgun, Combimelta 202
1 Vanguard Veteran Lightning Claw, Storm Shield 40
1 Biker Power Sword 35
Deathwatch Aquila Kill Team
1 Terminator Thunderhammer, Storm Shield, Cyclone Missile Launcher 75
5 Veterans Stalker Pattern Boltguns, Boltguns 135


Total= 807

I really like the idea of a cyclone with thunderhammerSS but it seems a tad expensive at 75pts for a single model.

Pretty sure you can't buy a Cyclone for a Thunder-Shield Termie, as the order of operations has you replace the Cyclone when you purchase the Hammer and Shield.

SJ

Yer I'm a little dubious myself but am fed up of waiting for them to answer the DW FAQ questions (which this was one of) the hobby knife is on standby depending on their answer

On the order of operations point: there is no actual rule regarding that (afaik) but people often point to it as if there were, it may seem a logical way to do it but that doesn't really fit with them :/ The way they answer the FAQ questions seems to be more from a fluff and RAI standpoint than how the book is laid out, the dark angel terminators have been given permission to equip models with TH/SS and a cyclone and that president seems a good guide to go by for now.

Not sure which way to go on the TH/SH/CML debate. One thought, and sadly I don't have the book to check right now (I am eternally on trains), is are the CML listed under special issue wargear? Because if so then replacing weapons wouldn't do anything to it RaW.

Just quickly I love love love frag cannons. They are doing so damn well for me I want to get as many as I can, I'm kind of loving templates in general (flames, not blast.......ew)

So I'm wondering, what would 3 furioso dreadnoughts with frag cannons and heavy Flanders in drop pods be like? If I use them with the new chapter ancients rules from angels blade, they could give up their movement to lay down 4 frag cannon templates and 2 heavy flames templates each in a single turn, provided they survive their drop and burn turn.

I was thinking maybe drop my killteams t1 next to anti armour solutions. They probably die but hopefully all the enemy is left with is light arms and not enough ways to deal with 3 furiosos and lots of flamer action.

What do people think? Any potential for painful hilarity there?

Cheers,

Qwerty

I have a question. How is the Blackstar supposed to combat other fliers that have armor 12? Their only weapon with strength higher than 6 is the Lascannon, and their only weapon with Skyfire is Corvid Warheads, which are only strength 6. So unless you're lucky and their flier is positioned perfectly for you to come onto the board facing their rear, you're at best hitting on 3's and glancing on 6's, with a weapon that has random shot amounts.

I ask because my friend runs a Heldrake, which I could not beat with flakk missiles alone. The flakk missiles and blackstar are the only methods of anti-air without relying on lucky snapshots, but I need to do something about that Drake because it just tears through my Killteams.

I have an admittedly stupid, waste of points melee oriented kill team (I made it for shiggles, but it truly is not worth the points until DW can charge out of a deepstrike and can slaughter an expensive unit that way) i'm trimming down to make room for more anti-air, but i'm not confident that the Blackstar will be better than just adding more flakk missiles to my army wherever possible.

It makes sense that a transport isn't supposed to be the end all be all attack flyer that can kill anything, but 'd rather not have to run allies or a fortification with a skyfire emplacement just to counter one flier.

On a side note though, for people that were hesitant to bring Watch Masters: DO IT. They are absolute monsters in combat, today mine was able to kill 4 Nurgle Terminators on the charge by himself. He's another reason i'm cutting down my melee kill team, they didn't even get to swing because he trashed the unit, and the termie sergeant was locked in a challenge with my captain. Then came the Heldrake and torched everyone but the Master and the Captain because it targeted a unit that was close enough to them... but eh.

As a flyer, the Corvus Blackstar can elect to have the Skyfire rule on ALL of its weapons. Meaning, it can have Skyfire Stormstrike Missiles, Assault Cannons, or Lascannons.

Nvm, thank you! Now that I know that, i'll definitely be adding a Blackstar as a second Auxiliary in my BSSF after I cut my melee killlteam down to a more reasonable point cost.

 xTHExCLINCHERx wrote:


I think the best MSU killteam if you're just looking to fill a CAD's troop slots (so that you can sprinkle in single bike, TH/SS terminator, melta bomb vvet, etc. units) is:

(You're always gonna have to kill troops, and remember that means their dedicated transports too! so use these for trukks, rhinos, jetbikes, etc.)

Furor Kiltleam:
Vets (5) - pod, shotgun/bolter x3, frag cannon x2, terminator w/heavy flamer
(*and maybe fist/aux melta if you have the points, or a storm shield if you dont play on a lot of cover terrain)

Uh....Kill Teams are formations unto themselves. So you can't take them in a CAD. If you take a Deathwatch CAD your troops choices will be Veterans squads.

have you guys tried the Strategium command team with double libby? rolling for invisibility, shifting worldscape, or other biomancy stuff.

Here is what I've got:

Biker with melta bomb to give split fire
2 termies with chainfist for ripping super heavies
3 vet with meltas or grav
2 vet with shotgun/storm shield for tanking with 3+ invul
2 ML2 Libby with melta bombs
Optionally add frag cannon, more storm shields, and heavy hammer for more lulz
and everyone boards corvus or deep strike pending on situation and foe.

Use one libby to get invisibility or biomancy buff with 4++ FNP. and the other 1 soften enemy up or cast other craziness.

It worked magic, the knight have no idea what hit it.

I've been strongly considering doing a Watch Company, opposed to a Black Spear strike force.

Using the Beacon Angelis to bring in a melee squad with the Captain, etc.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I've been strongly considering doing a Watch Company, opposed to a Black Spear strike force.

Using the Beacon Angelis to bring in a melee squad with the Captain, etc.

Why not do both? A watch company is a core choice in a Black Spear, no?

Potentially points heavy. The idea would to be avoiding the Corvus Tax of the Black Spear, and possibly including a Melee Team that can Beacon in, and maybe ally a Skyhammer and fit within 1850.

If you are avoiding a corvus tax, why not go with a cheap dreadnought? With the boost in attacks they got, they aren't a total waste in points these days.

Because, unfortunately, DW Dreads are more shooty and punchy. No melee upgrades. The very MOMENT FW produces rules for a Contemptor is the moment I do exactly that.

When you beacon a melee unit in they cant charge can they? I mean its like a deepstrike isn't it where they have to sit for a turn and soak wounds?

 Rezyn wrote:
When you beacon a melee unit in they cant charge can they? I mean its like a deepstrike isn't it where they have to sit for a turn and soak wounds?

Correct, you can't charge after deepstriking. Makes units like that Squad Galatael a little bit worthless as deep strikers, imo. They are gonna have to eat a turn of shooting either way so may as well start them on the board... I am sure there are advantages to deepstriking them, they just don't seem worth the cost of the risk.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I've been strongly considering doing a Watch Company, opposed to a Black Spear strike force.

Using the Beacon Angelis to bring in a melee squad with the Captain, etc.

Why not do both? A watch company is a core choice in a Black Spear, no?

That's exactly what I'd do, best of both worlds. I don't consider the Corvus a tax, I couldn't imagine running Deathwatch without one, they're amazing.

did anyone take Deathwatch to ITC beside me?

on side note, Deathwatch will totally stomp xenos if you play it right.

I did pod deathwatch, worked magic against ork bikestar and necron wraith spam, terrible against tau interceptor riptide gundam wing (lulz)

 fr3ddy wrote:
did anyone take Deathwatch to ITC beside me?

on side note, Deathwatch will totally stomp xenos if you play it right.

I did pod deathwatch, worked magic against ork bikestar and necron wraith spam, terrible against tau interceptor riptide gundam wing (lulz)

I imagine even against that, you could have built a pretty solid list against it. The problem is that GW seem to expect you to tailor your DW list to your foe... which is not only a bit beardy, but also impossible at tournaments where you bring the same list against multiple opponents throughout.

What do you think would work against Tau Riptide spam in a DW list anyway? Having not played against it, I suspect massed bolter fire will do the trick, especially with our specialized ammo? Poisoned, for example?

Laying down a bunch of wounds with the Poisoned Ammo seems like the best strategy. Especially if you are employing Dominatus Tactics paired with an Aquila Kill Team (rerolling 1s on a 2+ to wound equals a lot of wounds).

Hi All,

Through buying Kill Team, a couple of Deathwatch Overkill boxes for the GSC models and Death Masque for the Harlequins, I've actually ended up with a reasonably large Deathwatch force. I have zero experience with any kind of marine army, but the rules for Deathwatch have really got me hooked so I thought I'd give them a whirl since I already have the models. However, aside from scratchbuilding a few Drop Pods, I'm really not keen on buying anything else for the army.

I'm planning on using the Black Spear Strike Force with Chaplain + Watch Company + Dreadnought. I'm planning on using the Aquila, Furor, Ventator & Dominatus Kill Teams in the Company. I realise it won't be the most competitive force, but would like some advice on how best to equip the aforementioned kill teams. Here is what I was thinking:

Aquila Kill Team Team - Librarian + 5 vets with as many Frag Cannons. Since this team get a boost for everything, I thought max Frag Cannons would be a good all round option

Furor Kill Team - 1 Termie w/ HF, 5 vets with various flamer weapons, Drop Pod. Basically the idea here is to drop behind enemy lines and nuke troop units holding backfield objectives. Maybe stick a beacon on these guys so another squad can join them backfield

Ventator Kill Team - 1 bike, 5 vets, one with storm shield, 1-2 Frag Cannons. Struggling with this one. Basically the idea is, through the Bike's Jink and the Storm Shield, to be a relatively durable unit that can sit on objectives. A few Frag Cannons for damage

Dominatus Kill Team - 5 Vanguard vets with PWs, 5 vets with a black shield and smattering of combat weapons. Idea here is to go combat heavy, make the most of the cheap PWs available to the Vanguard vets and hopefully go toe-to-toe with enemy elites with the re-rolls.

So, as you can see, I don't really have much of an idea as to what I'm doing, but I'd appreciate some feedback on the planned equipment I've got for the above kill teams, as well as any suggestions or general advice you might have. Thanks guys!