Martel732 wrote:
Okay substitute marines with "BA" then. However, you are speaking of very SPECIFIC combinations. In general, the more models you can hit with a buff, the better it is. Giving a 50 man guard squad a 4+ invuln save means a lot more than giving 5 marines a 4+invlun save. I don't see how that is debateable.

Because you are specifying 5 Marines. Replace 5 marines with 10 Marines, or 5 [superspecialsnowflakeunit X] or the like. You would never give the power to 5 Marines, but even if you did it would still be a far better investment of the power.

Giving BS 3 models a reroll to hit is a percentage bigger jump in hits than giving it to BS 4.

WHAAATTTTT? With BS 4 rerolling to hit you are getting far more hits than with BS 3 rerolling.

BA can't make their units invincible to Tau. Not even close. That's why BA can't even entertain spamming psykers as a solution.

So its a BA problem. You do have a new supplement/army book coming out you know? And you also have it a lot easier than the Guard.

We all know what SW and superfriends death stars are all about. I'm talking about the rest of the field vs Tau.

Vanilla Marines can still fight Tau on an equal footing.

Read my post again and then think about your answers. Read carefully. Specifically the reroll part.

Martel732 is correct regarding the comparative boost in twin-linking, in terms of the raw firepower before and after.

BS 3 to Twin-linked BS 3 means you shift from hitting 50% of the time to hitting 75% of the time. That translates to a 50% increase in hits from the same unit.

BS 4 to Twin-linked BS 4 means you shift from hitting 67% of the time to hitting 89% of the time. That translates to a roughly 33% increase in hits from the same unit.

If the firepower-per-point were the same for the baseline BS 3 and baseline BS 4 units before they were twin-linked (and on that point, I'm not informed enough to have an opinion), the BS 3 unit increases its firepower-per-point in comparison to BS 4 unit.

Akiasura wrote:

Worst part? You can only do it once or twice, and many lists take 3 tides.

And here we come to the crux of the problem. Why, WHY are you playing these people??? Someone sits down opposite me, saying they have three 'tides and immediately I'm done. As I mentioned way back in the beginning of this thread, the problem w/ the Riptide is the ridiculously low cost and the fact that you can now take three as a single choice, or even worse - the Riptide wing, which shouldn't be a 'thing' at all.

The fact that people are allowing themselves to play against this douche-baggery is mind boggling to me. This is a game, it should be fun. Anything outside a tourney (which I do not participate in anymore, for exactly this reason), I would never expect to see someone bringing three Riptides. Certainly wouldn't play against them if that were the case.

And to the other points. Turning the Riptide into a Walker, immediately takes it out of contention for use. It would suddenly sit beside Vespid and our Flyers as the least used units in the codex. Which, it seems to me, is exactly what some people here want. Notice the amount of Dreadnaughts, War Walkers and Sentinals that are conspicuously absent from tables these days..? The 'fix' for the Riptide, in it's current state, is a bump to 250-260pts base, a 30pt Ion Accelerator and the EWO costing 20pts for the Riptide/Ghostkeel/Stormsurge, just like the pts difference for the Stim Injector between 'normal' suits and the Riptide. Still almost an auto-take, but now you're breaching Stormsurge territory for points costs, and starts making it hard to justify taking multiples. Also, with rare exceptions (I'm thinking 'nids, since they were the original 'MC'), MC/GMC's should never be able to be taken in squads. And Riptide Wing just needs to die in a fire.

However, before I would be prepared to accept these changes (other than the multiple models/squad), the same changes need to be implemented to the Wraithknight, and Grav Centurions need to die in the same fire that Riptide Wing needs to go to.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Martel732 is correct regarding the comparative boost in twin-linking, in terms of the raw firepower before and after.

BS 3 to Twin-linked BS 3 means you shift from hitting 50% of the time to hitting 75% of the time. That translates to a 50% increase in hits from the same unit.

BS 4 to Twin-linked BS 4 means you shift from hitting 67% of the time to hitting 89% of the time. That translates to a roughly 33% increase in hits from the same unit.

If the firepower-per-point were the same for the baseline BS 3 and baseline BS 4 units before they were twin-linked (and on that point, I'm not informed enough to have an opinion), the BS 3 unit increases its firepower-per-point in comparison to BS 4 unit.

If only, I wouldnt mind having S4 Lasguns hitting 75% of their shots.

Your lack of understanding of how anything works is, as usual, amazing. So I'll throw you a meatball. Who gets more benefit from misfortune? Marines or IG?

 Vryce wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

Worst part? You can only do it once or twice, and many lists take 3 tides.

And here we come to the crux of the problem. Why, WHY are you playing these people??? Someone sits down opposite me, saying they have three 'tides and immediately I'm done. As I mentioned way back in the beginning of this thread, the problem w/ the Riptide is the ridiculously low cost and the fact that you can now take three as a single choice, or even worse - the Riptide wing, which shouldn't be a 'thing' at all.

The fact that people are allowing themselves to play against this douche-baggery is mind boggling to me. This is a game, it should be fun. Anything outside a tourney (which I do not participate in anymore, for exactly this reason), I would never expect to see someone bringing three Riptides. Certainly wouldn't play against them if that were the case.

There are counters to 3 Tides, and they include deathstars, grav cents (who can delete two with a psyker casting a buff), wraith spam, and a few others. They are certainly not impossible to deal with, they are just up there with the most OP stuff in the game when in formation. Outside of formation, they probably fall a bit short of the most op list but still stand tall above nearly anything else that is a single unit (outside of the WK).
When I play my friends, and we have moved to warmachine since this year since it's less work to get a good game in, we agree on a power level and play. I don't bring Chaos to a Tide Wing match, I bring my ultra marines or wolves. I don't bring my cent star in against Tyranid MC spam, I use my orks or chaos instead. It's fine, but we all have to agree on the power level of things. Outside of one player, we mostly do since it's very obvious once you run some numbers.

Sometimes here you'll see people saying things like "maulerfiend spam is viable" or "riptides are fine" and I like to chime in based on my personal experiences. We prefer competitive lists and have large collections, so we have no trouble running the more obscene builds (though not gladius...honestly its too time consuming) and I like to comment from that viewpoint. People who enjoy that viewpoint don't have anything wrong with them, though I agree 40k is not the game for them. The balance in this game is godawful.
Since the original conversation was more "what can handle the riptide" I'd like to keep the conversation on that rather than "Why would you play anyone who uses more than 1 Riptide?". The former is a game discussion, the latter is all about making another player feel dirty for enjoying the game. I love big stompy robots, its why I play Cygnar and recently got into Karchev and his lists in WM, so I understand the appeal and don't fault anyone for it.

I don't mind big stompy robots, actually. I mind miscosted big stompy robots.

Martel, I think a big reason you mind them is most likely due to the fact you only own and play BA.

For me, I own nearly every army in the game. I don't mind these because I can play an army that can handle the tide. I own armies that get stomped by the tide into the ground without any hope of fighting back. If I only had the latter, this would bother me a lot more.

I also have a few forces in WMH that I play, so the state of 40k doesn't bother me much either. Some people here believe crazy things that involve math being tossed out the window, which seems really odd to me though 40k is more random than WMH so I guess I understand that, but the game is pretty simple. I'm surprised everyone debates power levels so much.

Everyone should mind miscosted units.

This game is heinously expensive. It is fair to expect that most people will only own one or a few armies.

I don't expect anyone to own anything, I'm just offering why some people feel that Riptides are fine (They play competitive forces) and why some don't (they play non-competitive forces). I think owning so many armies gives you a unique view point, but I've been playing for...wow 30 years? That can't be right...

Martel, miscosted units don't bother me personally. 40k has a ton of problems, and while miscosted units are certainly a large part, I don't think they are the worst offender. Formations seem much worse to me, and there are ton of other rules that make the game imbalanced.

If someone says the Tide isn't miscosted or is easy to handle, they're wrong. I don't disagree there. But I don't think a few units being undercosted is the reason the game is falling apart in regards to balance.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Martel732 is correct regarding the comparative boost in twin-linking, in terms of the raw firepower before and after.

BS 3 to Twin-linked BS 3 means you shift from hitting 50% of the time to hitting 75% of the time. That translates to a 50% increase in hits from the same unit.

BS 4 to Twin-linked BS 4 means you shift from hitting 67% of the time to hitting 89% of the time. That translates to a roughly 33% increase in hits from the same unit.

If the firepower-per-point were the same for the baseline BS 3 and baseline BS 4 units before they were twin-linked (and on that point, I'm not informed enough to have an opinion), the BS 3 unit increases its firepower-per-point in comparison to BS 4 unit.

If only, I wouldnt mind having S4 Lasguns hitting 75% of their shots.

In case my point wasn't clear enough (and unfortunately, that appears to be the case here), I've bolded the relevant portion of my argument.

When it comes to comparing SM and AM forces on a firepower-per-point basis, we're not just looking at the strength of each shot, but also the VOLUME of each unit's output. The comparison I'd be making would be X points of lasgun-toting BS 3 models versus X points of boltgun-toting BS 4 models, and the comparatively greater firepower-per-point would only apply if the inevitably higher-volume S3 shots (with a subsequently higher number of S3 hits, even when taking the difference in BS into account) was roughly equal, firepower-wise, to the lower-volume S4 shots.

Of course, if the baseline firepower is not equal - if even the higher number of lasgun hits per point doesn't equal the effectiveness of the lower number of boltgun hits per point, then boosting the AM's firepower would only work to make AM better (though the specific quantity of boost may result in only closing SOME of the gap, or overshooting the gap, depending on how close those baseline firepower quantities were to start).

This may well be a moot point, given that AM squads are so rarely (due to the mostly-agreed-upon premise that AM blobs are not a good choice) going to be in the quantities to make a single buffer able to actually affect equal-point-equivalents of SM.

This is also fairly tangentally related to the topic at hand, so this will be my last [attempt at] explanation of the above.

Cheers

Miscosted units are far worse than formations. It's not even close, really.

There are more than a few units miscosted. I'd say half the game easy.

Martel732 wrote:
Miscosted units are far worse than formations. It's not even close, really.

There are more than a few units miscosted. I'd say half the game easy.

I disagree. The issue is undercosted units taken in formations.

Formations which provide special rules (such as Riptide Wing) can exponentially increase the effectiveness of the units within it. When you combine that with a unit which is already undercosted (such as the IA Riptide) you get a perfect storm of bad game design which pushes an already powerful unit clean through the roof.

If the units weren't undercosted to being with, the formations wouldn't be an issue. No one complains about formations of terminators or wyches.

I can prove the undercosted thing is a bigger deal with one word: scatbike. And Wraithknight. Eldar CADs with these units wipe the floor with 95% of the formations in the game.

Riptide Wing wouldn't matter if Riptides weren't immortal vs 95% of the game's weapons to begin with. They could reroll nova reactor rolls all day, but if those rolls were only giving them a 4++, it wouldn't matter. Or if they straight up costed a lot more.

Martel732 wrote:
Miscosted units are far worse than formations. It's not even close, really.

There are more than a few units miscosted. I'd say half the game easy.

True, maybe I'd have to count but I'm easily willing to say 1/3-2/3 is debatable, but the overcosted ones don't really impact the game unless you play that army overly much. We can agree to disagree on formations, but it seems like for a lot of armies the formations are what breaks it. I should have been specific since I meant undercosted.
I don't think, for example, the tide and WK would be so bad if MC's weren't so good. If, for example, MC's suffered damage as wounds piled up like tanks do, they'd be more manageable. A few wounds on them and they go from OP to "okay, do I finish this off or have I done enough damage?" like you get with tanks. But MC's are broken by and large, and jumping ones even worse. Flying ones are also bad, see tyranids, and those are incredibly expensive, relatively speaking.

For formations;
Necrons are good, go to OP with decurion.
Eldar aspect warriors are good, though inferior to wraith forces mostly and Scatbikes, go to OP in formation quickly. I play aspect warriors since my old eldar force is biel-tan and I manage to do well against everything you can think of.
Gladius makes basic warriors/transports OP.
Riptide Wing makes them go from very good to OP.
And there are many others. It's basically free buffs to good units in return for not taking things you probably weren't going to. Or it's a massive point advantage.

Obviously somethings don't need formations, eldar forces for one, deathstars for another, but they do tend to break the game when they are good. WMH had issues with these as well, EE was running the field for a long time and denny's theme force was outright broken. It's a hard thing to balance and I wish they were never introduced. At least points can be adjusted, I think this genie is out of the bottle.

Without formations there would be a lot issues in the game still. Tanks versus MC for example, is not something that can be fixed with points. Special rules being amazing or garbage (Soul Blaze, Furious charge for example, are pretty bad, while fleet is really solid). Overwatch, random charge distances, winning combat by a lot being bad (seriously this is just mind numbing), none of these can be fixed with points and change the fundamental nature of the game in a way that points can help with but not fix. Look what has happened to CC; you either get broken units like wolves or wraiths, or you tend to stay home because CC is so tilting the way it's written. I can't blame 40k for having awful CC unit points when CC is so jarring.

If units could, for example, fire into CC but have to reroll hits (not misses, hits), but have the same rule apply when firing at a unit after combat is won for one turn, CC would be a lot more fair. Units can fire but at much weaker shooting levels (and certain units that are infiltrators could get an SC that reduces this to hit chance by 1, like striking scorpions or assault marines for example). Remove charge distances being random, everyone charges movement + init, with orks moving double init. Fleet allows you to double init to charge rolls. Voluntary retreat from combat but requires LD rolls.

But instead we have this mess.

Edit;
Martel, to get on point, see the gladius formation. It's filled with terrible options, basic marines and transports, but does well since it's free points. Basic marines and transports are not normally undercosted, but this formation makes them broken by stacking benefits on. It's crazy.

Gladius is an extreme outlier. And even it is helped immensely by tac squads having access to grav cannons.

Most if the issues you list off can actually be fixed by points. MCs are great? Vehicles suck? Then make mcs more expensive and vehicles cheaper. Assault units bad? Make them cheaper.

If units were worth what you paid for them to start with, a lot of other problems go away.

Riptides are op without the wing. I think they that miscosted.

Martel732 wrote:
Gladius is an extreme outlier. And even it is helped immensely by tac squads having access to grav cannons.

Most if the issues you list off can actually be fixed by points. MCs are great? Vehicles suck? Then make mcs more expensive and vehicles cheaper. Assault units bad? Make them cheaper.

If units were worth what you paid for them to start with, a lot of other problems go away.

That comes with issues. I don't want to have to spend an extra $40 on more assault squads because they get cheaper points wise. I'd rather see assault units get better.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Gladius is an extreme outlier. And even it is helped immensely by tac squads having access to grav cannons.

Most if the issues you list off can actually be fixed by points. MCs are great? Vehicles suck? Then make mcs more expensive and vehicles cheaper. Assault units bad? Make them cheaper.

If units were worth what you paid for them to start with, a lot of other problems go away.

That comes with issues. I don't want to have to spend an extra $40 on more assault squads because they get cheaper points wise. I'd rather see assault units get better.

That doesn't make it not the best fix. You should get what you pay for or in the case of assault marines only pay for what you get.

Martel732 wrote:
Gladius is an extreme outlier. And even it is helped immensely by tac squads having access to grav cannons.

Not really, it's helped by obsec. The army doesn't win by doing any real damage, its just target saturation taken to an extreme skew. Few armies can mulch through that many PA bodies and transports before the game is over.
It's a gear check list, it just has a really high level for that check.

Martel732 wrote:

Most if the issues you list off can actually be fixed by points. MCs are great? Vehicles suck? Then make mcs more expensive and vehicles cheaper. Assault units bad? Make them cheaper.

None of what you are saying would work.
Take, for example, the rhino. Do I make that cheaper? By how much? What about the Razorback? The ork trukk? Many of these are already cheap, and dropping their point cost will make people take more, which will move the game away from infantry level weapons, a problem we already see. Your solution would make that worse.
MCs have a similar issue. They are fundamentally broken since their rules are just too good. Even the carnifex, which is a pretty bad MC, isn't as bad as the worst tank option, simply because MC's put high quality weapons on the table. They need a rule change.
Both should be heavy in the points with rare exception (transports basically) to move the game towards infantry and infantry level weapons.
Adjusting point costs leads to other problems.

In addition, adjusting the point cost alone leads to the problem we have now; Lascannons are garbage, mid strength high RoF is king. This is due to the fundamental rules.
What if lascannons caused 2 wounds, or D3? You'd see them taken against heavier targets since they become a lot better, while still being relatively rare compared to bolters. Enemies would be worried about 3 lascannons with divination on them, since that can one round a MC, compared to now where you figure, at best, the MC is doing fine and doing its job since it can take 2-3 rounds of that easy, maybe more?
You still wouldn't see them spammed since they lack the RoF to deal with PA troops, but it would create an option. An option that doesn't exist by just adjusting points alone.

Similar issues are with assault units. Wolves are expensive, but are tough enough to reach CC. Same with Spawn. Assault marines are relatively cheap, but are too slow and die too quickly for what they accomplish. At best they wipe one squad and explode the following turn due to poor CC rules. This isn't something that can be fixed with point costs, the only viable assault units are extremely durable to the point that they become deathstars, which are extremely unhealthy for the game. I doubt anyone is excited to fire at a unit hoping for a 1 armor save to be re-rolled into another 1, because some tank out in front has 3 wounds and a 2+ save that gets re-rolled.
The idea of a horde of melee guys charging your lines is a part of the 40k world, but not the table top. This is due to the rules directly, CC is bad and has been for a long time now.

Martel732 wrote:

If units were worth what you paid for them to start with, a lot of other problems go away.

If unit types and SC were balanced, and the phases closer together in influence (you can't tell me shooting is not the strongest phase, followed by psyker or movement depending on list, followed dead last by assault. I've had games were assault doesn't even happen). Unit costs would be easier to get right, since you'd have more wiggle room. Honestly with a 1850pt game, the differences you can allow for are staggering...a 100 point game of warmachine can't make a unit 15 or 18 and have it mean as little as an 1850 pt game can, but they manage a lot better because the rules are tighter.

Riptides are op without the wing. I think they that miscosted.

In tournaments, anything goes. In normal games, I limit myself to 2 MC or GMCs, because it is extremely hard to support more.
Over the last couple months I have acquired 3 knights, ostensibly so that my opponents could use them against me. A shortsighted decision.

Voted: Other

If you are playing against a fairly unskilled or even average player then often the riptide works best as a distraction. Feed the riptide to a part of your opponents army that you know can't kill it in a single turn. These monstrous creatures make amazing tanks even without shields/FnP.

 carldooley wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Unfortunately none of those are reliable methods of dealing with it as it is currently implemeted. Plasma, melta and lascannons all lack the rate of fire to threaten riptide. 2+ armor and t6 make it immune to most cc.

How many people have killed T6 MCs with lasguns? I HAVE!
you want to be able to one shot a riptide? try a psilencer. 'Oh no, it is a str4 gun. . .' To which I say, 'ROF!'

On average you'll need 54 BS4 Psilencer shots to kill a Riptide. About as many shots as Plasma Guns would need against an FNP'd 2+/3++ Riptide, and a GK army generally isn't bringing enough to the field to output that kind of firepower out of the entire army

Yes the rules could use a huge overhaul. However some points tweaks could really help the situation we currently have.

Martel732 wrote:
Miscosted units are far worse than formations. It's not even close, really.

There are more than a few units miscosted. I'd say half the game easy.

To back up martel in this issue I brought along some numbers. What does the Riptide wing actually do that is amazing? Really the only thing that it does that is above and beyond is the double tap ability. The +1 BS is good but not that great and the rerolling Nova's is good and all but not game breaking.

So without using any crazy formations I built a 1,500 point list with Tau that is just as broken and ridiculous and not fun to play against at all.

2 CADS

Ethereal x1

Striker Squad with 2 Markerlight drones X2 (1 has Shasui with Markerlight)

RIPTIDE x2 with IoA, EWO and stim injector

Markerlight Drones x 4

Ethereal x 1

Striker Squad with 2 Markerlightdrones X2 (1 has Shasui with Markerlight)

RIPTIDE x2 with IoA, EWO and Stim Injector.

Markerlight Drones X4

So I have 14 Markerlights with which to buff those 4 riptides up. More importantly I HAVE 4 RIPTIDES AT 1,500 POINTS!

Yep that isn't broken at all. Worse then that, its both legal and could be taken in most tournaments since its only 2 CADs.


So really it isn't the formation that breaks Riptides, its the fact that the unit is severely under priced. If those things were 250 base with IoA costing 25pts then it would be a lot closer to where it should be.

.I'd love to face that 4 riptide list with my daemonkin. Sounds like a pretty easy game. Get in combat turn 2, multi charge some fire warriors and watch the riptides run away.

I don't know what kind of lists you guys are trying to use, but riptides are far from invincible. They're tough, but their firepower is pretty lame for the 220pts they cost. They have equivalent firepower to a Ion hammerhead.. I get that some of you want them to never see the light of day, but suggestions like making them 300pts are laughable.

Riptides are supposed to be tanky. That's the role they fill. Before riptides, Tau capped at av13 and the majority of the army is MEQ. Riptide gives Tau something they can use to take the fight to the enemy.

If you want to nerf riptides fairly, my suggestions would be removing the overheat profile. Leave the 3 S7 and the S9, but don't let it Pie-plate on the same turn it ripple-fires or 3++'s.
If you really want to kill it, take away a wound, and make it lose Smash.

And kill the riptide wing. That is single-honestly the worst designed formation ever. Formations should give buffs to bad units or give special rules in exchange for restricted army building: the Wing gives you additional special rules on an already good unit for no penalty AND allows non-Tau tax-free access.

Trasvi wrote:
.I'd love to face that 4 riptide list with my daemonkin. Sounds like a pretty easy game. Get in combat turn 2, multi charge some fire warriors and watch the riptides run away.

I don't know what kind of lists you guys are trying to use, but riptides are far from invincible. They're tough, but their firepower is pretty lame for the 220pts they cost. They have equivalent firepower to a Ion hammerhead.. I get that some of you want them to never see the light of day, but suggestions like making them 300pts are laughable.

Riptides are supposed to be tanky. That's the role they fill. Before riptides, Tau capped at av13 and the majority of the army is MEQ. Riptide gives Tau something they can use to take the fight to the enemy.

If you want to nerf riptides fairly, my suggestions would be removing the overheat profile. Leave the 3 S7 and the S9, but don't let it Pie-plate on the same turn it ripple-fires or 3++'s.
If you really want to kill it, take away a wound, and make it lose Smash.

And kill the riptide wing. That is single-honestly the worst designed formation ever. Formations should give buffs to bad units or give special rules in exchange for restricted army building: the Wing gives you additional special rules on an already good unit for no penalty AND allows non-Tau tax-free access.

Did you just choose to not read the rest of this at all? People so far have PROVEN how hard it is to delete Riptides. The plethora of Plasma or Melta or Lascannon needed to remove this model is ridiculous. Furthermore, what units are you charging those riptides with? Because they have to be as fast as the riptide to catch the damned thing, it has to be as tanky if not MORE tanky then the riptide to survive that long...basically I don't see it happening. Those Firewarrior squads are speed bumps, thats it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevermind, i just realized your bias in your title "Trustworthy Shas'vre "

SemperMortis wrote:
Did you just choose to not read the rest of this at all? People so far have PROVEN how hard it is to delete Riptides. The plethora of Plasma or Melta or Lascannon needed to remove this model is ridiculous.

The number of plasma/melta/lascannon shots needed to kill ANYTHING that isn't a marine on foot is a large number.
Moreover, trying to take on Tau in a shooting match is something that you SHOULD lose. Shooting is Tau's only strength: if they can't beat you at that then the entire army is pointless. Try to capitalize on Tau's weaknesses in movement/psychic/combat.

Furthermore, what units are you charging those riptides with? Because they have to be as fast as the riptide to catch the damned thing, it has to be as tanky if not MORE tanky then the riptide to survive that long...basically I don't see it happening. Those Firewarrior squads are speed bumps, thats it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevermind, i just realized your bias in your title "Trustworthy Shas'vre "

Some people occasionally change armies Especially if they've been playing for 15 years. I haven't touched my Tau since the start of 6th edition - I predominantly play Daemonkin at the moment.

For example, with my Daemonkin in 1500pts I use 30+ flesh hounds, a juggernaut lord and a D-thirster. If I get first turn, I'm touching your riptides before they move. The D-thirster most likely dies (3 riptides ripple-firing at him with full markerlight support will do it), but you need to deal with 9 units charging you on the next turn. If I manage to multi-charge a squad of Fire Warriors or Drones and a Riptide at the same time, you're very likely to lose both squads to sweeping advance. If I can't, I'll use your speedbumps against you by taking steps to reduce my damage output and get stuck in combat for a turn or three while your riptides cheer from the sidelines. The moment I get in to combat, I've 'won' - because I'll stick there for the rest of the game and eventually win.

That Tau army doesn't have a huge amount of mobility, especially if you're trying to hide the riptides behind the firewarriors and the firewarriors are trying to use their markerlights. This makes it relatively easy to take them on in Maelstrom games. It also lacks anti-vehicle firepower; at its best it is putting out 12 S7 or 4 S9 Blast shots. Its not an unbeatable army by any means - but if you try to take it on by footslogging marines with meltas up to the Tau gunline, you deserve what you get.


I acknowledge that the Riptide is a very good unit; but it's not the powerhouse of invulnerability or firepower that people in this thread are claiming it is.
Nerfing the Riptide by removing the IA S8 profile would be an enormous hit. It would mean that the max damage output it could do is ripple fire SMS OR try the 1/3 chance to Gets Hot for the blast profile. It would mean no blast profile at the same time as 3++ save. It would mean you'd have to prepare the Nova-charge the turn prior to attempting to intercept with the blast profile. TBH I think it could do with a points decrease if that happened.

Without knowing your list I wouldn't be able to say how easy it would be to counter that. But going by what you said, it wouldn't be very difficult for the Tau to destroy your units piecemeal before you can get in charge range. The D-thirster honestly isn't that scary for a 3++ model. I don't know how you have the juggerlord equipped but he is probably as much a threat as the D-thirster and beyond that all you have is the units of hounds which aren't that scary either, especially when they can get doubled out by the Riptides easily.

So Turn 1 you will not get the charge off unless he is stupid enough to deploy forward or move forward on his turn. You have to survive 4 Riptides blowing holes in your forces, then you have to close the distance as he jets away, turn 2 your still not even remotely close enough and he gets another turn of 4 riptides blowing holes in you, this turn your probably going to mulch 1-3 of those firewarrior units but that is what they are there for, also when you do get to assault one of them on turn 2 your opening that unit up to devastating over watch. After that you have to survive yet ANOTHER round of shooting and then after that you might be close enough to assault a riptide or two, but again massive overwatch means you have to survive that. Add to that, the fact that in CC The riptide isn't atrocious. Since its a MC it gets Smash AP2 attacks. But even if you do get to him, survive the smash attacks you still have to break through his 2+ armor 3-5++ and 5+ FNP on a 6 wound model.

Overall, Tau tend to mulch everyone. CC is the answer to tau most of the time but getting there is the problem

Trasvi wrote:
.I'd love to face that 4 riptide list with my daemonkin. Sounds like a pretty easy game. Get in combat turn 2, multi charge some fire warriors and watch the riptides run away.

I don't know what kind of lists you guys are trying to use, but riptides are far from invincible. They're tough, but their firepower is pretty lame for the 220pts they cost. They have equivalent firepower to a Ion hammerhead.. I get that some of you want them to never see the light of day, but suggestions like making them 300pts are laughable.

Riptides are supposed to be tanky. That's the role they fill. Before riptides, Tau capped at av13 and the majority of the army is MEQ. Riptide gives Tau something they can use to take the fight to the enemy.

If you want to nerf riptides fairly, my suggestions would be removing the overheat profile. Leave the 3 S7 and the S9, but don't let it Pie-plate on the same turn it ripple-fires or 3++'s.
If you really want to kill it, take away a wound, and make it lose Smash.

And kill the riptide wing. That is single-honestly the worst designed formation ever. Formations should give buffs to bad units or give special rules in exchange for restricted army building: the Wing gives you additional special rules on an already good unit for no penalty AND allows non-Tau tax-free access.

Riptides can be summed up with my reply from another thread:

SemperMortis wrote:

So really it isn't the formation that breaks Riptides, its the fact that the unit is severely under priced. If those things were 250 base with IoA costing 25pts then it would be a lot closer to where it should be.

You wanted a much larger point increase for them previously...

SemperMortis wrote:
But if your going to try and price this thing correctly then it should be around 350-400pts.

Would you consider 350+ too much now?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Spoiler:

Tau are a nightmare army to face. There strengths lie in shooting, so logic dictates that you ditch the slugging war and get straight into melee but:
-So, you want to get into melee? Okay then, try slugging through 3 to 4 turns worth of BS 5 Ignores Cover S 5+ shooting.
-Okay, so that didnt work, lets try transports next..... And cue the S 5+ shooting once more as most transports in the game are shredded by HP stripping glances.
-Well, how about we use an armoured thrust and beat the gak out of them with heavy armour? Oh look, Tau have special formations that let them pimpslap your rear armour.
-Tau player didnt bring said formation? Great, now lets just try to make it through the hordes of JSJ Fusion Blaster suits, railguns and Gundam scale artillery platforms.
-Okay, so that did not work out, lets try an alternate form of delivery - Deep Striking! Okay, so I drop this in here and, wait, you get how many Interceptor shots?!
-Outflanking! Okay then, that didnt work out....
-How about we actually try and slug it out? *Cue several turns of the tau player out ranging and out gunning most opponents*.
-You made it close? Watch as his suits run away a bit, blast you, and then run away some more.
-You finally, either by some miracle, fluke, formation bonus, cheesey special rule or just plain luck got a unit or two within charging range. The tau player overwatches. Cue his entire army (or a significant proportion thereof) shooting up each of your units in turn, oh and because of Tau special rules they are usually doing it at BS 5 Ignores Cover.
-You manage to make it into close combat. But the Tau have Hit and Run.

Long story short, the tau is a shooty army that is also very good at countering its weaknesses and very difficult to engage without Mary Sue grade formations and characters.

Jeremy Vetock designed the Tau to be as much as annoying as possible. Is not the sheer power, is the fact that everything they do is done to frustrate the opponent. This is the first army designed to not let the other player play the game.

It has a dreadful charm, if you ask me.

My question is: is coincidental? Or just Vetock hates people?

" but it's not the powerhouse of invulnerability"

Actually, it is. The math is irrefutable whether you believe it or not. Your beliefs are actually irrelevant in the face of fact.

 General Annoyance wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

So really it isn't the formation that breaks Riptides, its the fact that the unit is severely under priced. If those things were 250 base with IoA costing 25pts then it would be a lot closer to where it should be.

You wanted a much larger point increase for them previously...

SemperMortis wrote:
But if your going to try and price this thing correctly then it should be around 350-400pts.

Would you consider 350+ too much now?

No, honesty if you compared them to the closest Ork Equivalent (Morkanaut) a riptide should be 350-400pts. But since the ork codex is a broken pile of crap I decided to go with a more friendly 250pts base with the upgrades costing more. Why? because I have learned that I can't judge the "Have" Codex's against us "Have nots" because if we brought everyone down to the ork level to many units would be unplayable garbage and it would ruin the game.

I could justify 350, given that it takes triple the firepower to take down a Riptide as it does an IK. But 350 is not a serious proposal.

Martel732 wrote:
I could justify 350, given that it takes triple the firepower to take down a Riptide as it does an IK. But 350 is not a serious proposal.

Well duh. At that point we'd bring Stormsurges instead.

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I could justify 350, given that it takes triple the firepower to take down a Riptide as it does an IK. But 350 is not a serious proposal.

Well duh. At that point we'd bring Stormsurges instead.

Assuming we didn't increase Stormsurge accordingly as well. Although Stormsurge is a little different having 3+ armor.

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I could justify 350, given that it takes triple the firepower to take down a Riptide as it does an IK. But 350 is not a serious proposal.

Well duh. At that point we'd bring Stormsurges instead.

which are in the same boat as the riptide, Far to cheap for how much they can do. I hate to do this again but its my only expertise in regards to army.

The closest thing to a stormsurge in the Ork codex is the Stompa which costs literally more then TWICE as much and has LESS dakka.

BA have nothing comparable at all. I guess one could use IKs, but we know that IKs are very fragile for their points already.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Spoiler:

Tau are a nightmare army to face. There strengths lie in shooting, so logic dictates that you ditch the slugging war and get straight into melee but:
-So, you want to get into melee? Okay then, try slugging through 3 to 4 turns worth of BS 5 Ignores Cover S 5+ shooting.
-Okay, so that didnt work, lets try transports next..... And cue the S 5+ shooting once more as most transports in the game are shredded by HP stripping glances.
-Well, how about we use an armoured thrust and beat the gak out of them with heavy armour? Oh look, Tau have special formations that let them pimpslap your rear armour.
-Tau player didnt bring said formation? Great, now lets just try to make it through the hordes of JSJ Fusion Blaster suits, railguns and Gundam scale artillery platforms.
-Okay, so that did not work out, lets try an alternate form of delivery - Deep Striking! Okay, so I drop this in here and, wait, you get how many Interceptor shots?!
-Outflanking! Okay then, that didnt work out....
-How about we actually try and slug it out? *Cue several turns of the tau player out ranging and out gunning most opponents*.
-You made it close? Watch as his suits run away a bit, blast you, and then run away some more.
-You finally, either by some miracle, fluke, formation bonus, cheesey special rule or just plain luck got a unit or two within charging range. The tau player overwatches. Cue his entire army (or a significant proportion thereof) shooting up each of your units in turn, oh and because of Tau special rules they are usually doing it at BS 5 Ignores Cover.
-You manage to make it into close combat. But the Tau have Hit and Run.

Long story short, the tau is a shooty army that is also very good at countering its weaknesses and very difficult to engage without Mary Sue grade formations and characters.

Jeremy Vetock designed the Tau to be as much as annoying as possible. Is not the sheer power, is the fact that everything they do is done to frustrate the opponent. This is the first army designed to not let the other player play the game.

It has a dreadful charm, if you ask me.

My question is: is coincidental? Or just Vetock hates people?

You do wonder. After all, Tau are the only army that get potentially up to three shooting phases in a single game (IE, both players turns together) turn: Once in their own turn, once when the not Tau player brings in any DS/Outflanking troops and once when the not Tau player tries to charge. All at (potentially) BS 5 with Ignores Cover.
All in all, this just ruins the game for the non Tau player as there is almost nothing they can do to exploit the Tau's supposed 'weakness'.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:


Jeremy Vetock designed the Tau to be as much as annoying as possible. Is not the sheer power, is the fact that everything they do is done to frustrate the opponent. This is the first army designed to not let the other player play the game.

It has a dreadful charm, if you ask me.

My question is: is coincidental? Or just Vetock hates people?

He hates people, if you ask me. If what you said is true, then even I would be behind removing the Tau faction from the current 40k game. It painfully reminds me of Blue Magic in MTG - denying the other player any ability to play as their spells are constantly countered, often as soon as they are played. It is not a way to design any game.

While it is nice for a certain angle of play in any game to involve denying your opponent an action of some kind by playing a dick move that will be frustrating at first, but laughed about later, having it as a constant theme that can be played through that whole approach is lacking in any skill, fair play, and most importantly, is boring.

Yes, I'm all for strategies in games that involve tying down your opponent one way or another, but those ties should be able to be broken, one way or another, and not by chance. It certainly is no clever design decision to make a playstyle punishing to an opponent no matter what they do.

You might say I'm doing a 180 for saying that Tau should be removed if this is the case, from where I defended the Riptide's right to exist. I accept accidental or just careless mistakes that make units OP - I don't accept them being designed to punish a player unfairly. If that really is what the Riptide is, cut it out, and every other unit from the Tau faction, until someone can write them better. Both players come to a game to play, they don't come together for one guy to play while the other essentially sits and watches their army get brutalised, even when they're not making mistakes.

G.A

 master of ordinance wrote:

Spoiler:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

[spoiler]Tau are a nightmare army to face. There strengths lie in shooting, so logic dictates that you ditch the slugging war and get straight into melee but:
-So, you want to get into melee? Okay then, try slugging through 3 to 4 turns worth of BS 5 Ignores Cover S 5+ shooting.
-Okay, so that didnt work, lets try transports next..... And cue the S 5+ shooting once more as most transports in the game are shredded by HP stripping glances.
-Well, how about we use an armoured thrust and beat the gak out of them with heavy armour? Oh look, Tau have special formations that let them pimpslap your rear armour.
-Tau player didnt bring said formation? Great, now lets just try to make it through the hordes of JSJ Fusion Blaster suits, railguns and Gundam scale artillery platforms.
-Okay, so that did not work out, lets try an alternate form of delivery - Deep Striking! Okay, so I drop this in here and, wait, you get how many Interceptor shots?!
-Outflanking! Okay then, that didnt work out....
-How about we actually try and slug it out? *Cue several turns of the tau player out ranging and out gunning most opponents*.
-You made it close? Watch as his suits run away a bit, blast you, and then run away some more.
-You finally, either by some miracle, fluke, formation bonus, cheesey special rule or just plain luck got a unit or two within charging range. The tau player overwatches. Cue his entire army (or a significant proportion thereof) shooting up each of your units in turn, oh and because of Tau special rules they are usually doing it at BS 5 Ignores Cover.
-You manage to make it into close combat. But the Tau have Hit and Run.

Long story short, the tau is a shooty army that is also very good at countering its weaknesses and very difficult to engage without Mary Sue grade formations and characters.

Jeremy Vetock designed the Tau to be as much as annoying as possible. Is not the sheer power, is the fact that everything they do is done to frustrate the opponent. This is the first army designed to not let the other player play the game.

It has a dreadful charm, if you ask me.

My question is: is coincidental? Or just Vetock hates people?[/spoiler]

You do wonder. After all, Tau are the only army that get potentially up to three shooting phases in a single game (IE, both players turns together) turn: Once in their own turn, once when the not Tau player brings in any DS/Outflanking troops and once when the not Tau player tries to charge. All at (potentially) BS 5 with Ignores Cover.
All in all, this just ruins the game for the non Tau player as there is almost nothing they can do to exploit the Tau's supposed 'weakness'.

SemperMortis wrote:
Without knowing your list I wouldn't be able to say how easy it would be to counter that. But going by what you said, it wouldn't be very difficult for the Tau to destroy your units piecemeal before you can get in charge range. The D-thirster honestly isn't that scary for a 3++ model. I don't know how you have the juggerlord equipped but he is probably as much a threat as the D-thirster and beyond that all you have is the units of hounds which aren't that scary either, especially when they can get doubled out by the Riptides easily.

So Turn 1 you will not get the charge off unless he is stupid enough to deploy forward or move forward on his turn. You have to survive 4 Riptides blowing holes in your forces, then you have to close the distance as he jets away, turn 2 your still not even remotely close enough and he gets another turn of 4 riptides blowing holes in you, this turn your probably going to mulch 1-3 of those firewarrior units but that is what they are there for, also when you do get to assault one of them on turn 2 your opening that unit up to devastating over watch. After that you have to survive yet ANOTHER round of shooting and then after that you might be close enough to assault a riptide or two, but again massive overwatch means you have to survive that. Add to that, the fact that in CC The riptide isn't atrocious. Since its a MC it gets Smash AP2 attacks. But even if you do get to him, survive the smash attacks you still have to break through his 2+ armor 3-5++ and 5+ FNP on a 6 wound model.

Overall, Tau tend to mulch everyone. CC is the answer to tau most of the time but getting there is the problem

Seriously, seeing posts like this make me think you people never played a competitive game in your life. The tau has to stay back turn 1 and yield board control in order to survive. Daemonkin WILL be in cc in turn 2, if they get first turn this Tau army will not even remotely stand a chance. Riptides are WS2, meaning they will kill 0.2 bloodhounds per cc phase when smashing.. and even if you don't kill the riptides, if they are stock in bloodhounds for the rest of the game you can easily score all the objectives and win the scenario (unless you play only killpoints every game, which would explain a lot). Also you are severely exaggerating the potential of overwatch, it is not remotely as powerful as you make it out to be and requires the Tau to clump up, giving up even more board control.

Even when fielding a riptide wing, I lost games by a fair margin against Gladius players even though I killed almost every unit in their army, simply because I could not take board control until turn 5. Start playing proper scenarios and you will see that there are many avenues to victory, and a lot of them don't involve tabling your opponent.

Complaining about the number of lascannon shots a riptide takes is like whining that a riptide can't kill a chapter master in close combat, pls nerf chapter masters.

edit:/ And before this argument comes up again, if you are playing IG or Dark Eldar, you will be having a hard time against riptides yes. But every other codex after Necrons will roll you just as easily, and that's a completely different discussion!

Board control doesn't matter when the tau table most lists on turn 4 or 5. You lost to a gladius. Big shock. But the difference is that you still killed almost everything. Most lists can't even get close to doing that.

And yes, demons are top tier. We already knew that as well.

So the most broken formation of Tau loses to 2 codices already, but riptides on their own are too OP? I don't get this fixation on riptides, really..

Because they are more durable than warhound titans. Against demons and gladius most lists at least get to pretend to play. With tau, no such luck.

I think it would be something if Riptides (and other MCs) had to roll on the vehicle damage table.

Less durable in which sense? Because riptides certainly die sooner to flesh hounds, grav or bolters than Warhounds.

Seriously, if you play a post-necron codex, you will be able to handle at least 2 riptides in any game if you don't play like an idiot. If you think it's impossible, you just never put in the effort to actually come up with solutions.

I play with ba. So.... yeah. That's not a pass for undercostedness of the riptide.

Ushtarador wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Without knowing your list I wouldn't be able to say how easy it would be to counter that. But going by what you said, it wouldn't be very difficult for the Tau to destroy your units piecemeal before you can get in charge range. The D-thirster honestly isn't that scary for a 3++ model. I don't know how you have the juggerlord equipped but he is probably as much a threat as the D-thirster and beyond that all you have is the units of hounds which aren't that scary either, especially when they can get doubled out by the Riptides easily.

So Turn 1 you will not get the charge off unless he is stupid enough to deploy forward or move forward on his turn. You have to survive 4 Riptides blowing holes in your forces, then you have to close the distance as he jets away, turn 2 your still not even remotely close enough and he gets another turn of 4 riptides blowing holes in you, this turn your probably going to mulch 1-3 of those firewarrior units but that is what they are there for, also when you do get to assault one of them on turn 2 your opening that unit up to devastating over watch. After that you have to survive yet ANOTHER round of shooting and then after that you might be close enough to assault a riptide or two, but again massive overwatch means you have to survive that. Add to that, the fact that in CC The riptide isn't atrocious. Since its a MC it gets Smash AP2 attacks. But even if you do get to him, survive the smash attacks you still have to break through his 2+ armor 3-5++ and 5+ FNP on a 6 wound model.

Overall, Tau tend to mulch everyone. CC is the answer to tau most of the time but getting there is the problem

Seriously, seeing posts like this make me think you people never played a competitive game in your life. The tau has to stay back turn 1 and yield board control in order to survive. Daemonkin WILL be in cc in turn 2, if they get first turn this Tau army will not even remotely stand a chance. Riptides are WS2, meaning they will kill 0.2 bloodhounds per cc phase when smashing.. and even if you don't kill the riptides, if they are stock in bloodhounds for the rest of the game you can easily score all the objectives and win the scenario (unless you play only killpoints every game, which would explain a lot). Also you are severely exaggerating the potential of overwatch, it is not remotely as powerful as you make it out to be and requires the Tau to clump up, giving up even more board control.

Even when fielding a riptide wing, I lost games by a fair margin against Gladius players even though I killed almost every unit in their army, simply because I could not take board control until turn 5. Start playing proper scenarios and you will see that there are many avenues to victory, and a lot of them don't involve tabling your opponent.

Complaining about the number of lascannon shots a riptide takes is like whining that a riptide can't kill a chapter master in close combat, pls nerf chapter masters.

edit:/ And before this argument comes up again, if you are playing IG or Dark Eldar, you will be having a hard time against riptides yes. But every other codex after Necrons will roll you just as easily, and that's a completely different discussion!

KDK will not be in CC Turn 2 against a riptide unless the Tau player is a moron. Those things are AS fast in the movement phase as Beasts, and here is the kicker, they get to JSJ so they shoot hte hell out of your doggies and then jump away. Your guys AT THE MOST can move 12 and run 6, if the eldar player is deployed right that is easily 2 full turns of shooting. And with 4 riptides that is equivalent to 4 dead units easily.

As far as over stating Overwatch? yeah not really. So long as a riptide has some firewarriors or a drone squad nearby it will get boosted to at the very least BS3, but probably closer to BS4 and sometimes BS5. It gets to shoot the piss out of you, and then those firewarriors (probably one of the most under rated troops choices in the game) get to shoot you with their S5 guns at double tap range. Yeah your going to lose a lot of models. And the best part? if you lose enough of those front units your going to fail your charge and guess what? Mr Riptide is going to stroll away, blow more holes in your unit and then Jump jet away again.

Even when fielding a riptide wing, I lost games by a fair margin against Gladius players even though I killed almost every unit in their army, simply because I could not take board control until turn 5.

This is what really got my attention in your post though. A Gladius Strike force gets up to 300-400 FREE POINTS worth of transports. SO you weren't able to beat him in a tactical objective game even though you, by your own admission, almost tabled him. So in other words, the only way to beat tau is to take a super broken formation that gives you 300-400pts of free transports.

In other words, SMs with Gladius can beat Tau, otherwise L2P? LMAO


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ushtarador wrote:
Less durable in which sense? Because riptides certainly die sooner to flesh hounds, grav or bolters than Warhounds.

Seriously, if you play a post-necron codex, you will be able to handle at least 2 riptides in any game if you don't play like an idiot. If you think it's impossible, you just never put in the effort to actually come up with solutions.

And for those of us whose codex's came out BEFORE Necrons? Pretty sure my orks almost never get close enough to a Tau player to even scratch the paint job but sure whatever

I also play BA a lot, and it's absolutely possible. Most Tau list will struggle hard with Fragiosos in pods (intercepting riptides are NOT a counter to this). Using the SG formation with Dante works excellently even with intercept, unless your opponent uses a loaded scatter die. Strormraven with CC scouts will also be effective, unless the Tau prepares and takes tons of intercept on everything. Telepathy is very powerful against Tau with their usually mediocre LD.

And for those of us whose codex's came out BEFORE Necrons? Pretty sure my orks almost never get close enough to a Tau player to even scratch the paint job but sure whatever

Your codex will get rolled just as hard by any post-necron dex, so why not open a thread to discuss this issue? because THAT is the real problem, not the riptide (or any other arbitrary single unit from these codices). When you nerf the riptide you will have to nerf stormsurge, Optimized Stealth Cadre, Markerlights, Broadside, Crisis Suits... it doesn't end.

Concerning KDK, did you by chance forget that fleshhounds can scout 12"? They start the game already in the middle of the board, giving them 36"+D6 range to charge turn 2.

BA don't get telepathy. That puts your BA street cred in serious doubt.

"Most Tau list will struggle hard with Fragiosos in pods (intercepting riptides are NOT a counter to this)"

That's what the intercepting broadsides are for.

"Using the SG formation with Dante works excellently even with intercept"

Ion accelerators? No, it doesn't. SG are a dumpster fire even with the new book.

There is no scenario where Tau should even get close to losing to BA. BA have too much crap that is simultaneously overcosted AND perfect targets for Tau weapon systems.

SemperMortis wrote:


As far as over stating Overwatch? yeah not really. So long as a riptide has some firewarriors or a drone squad nearby it will get boosted to at the very least BS3, but probably closer to BS4 and sometimes BS5. It gets to shoot the piss out of you, and then those firewarriors (probably one of the most under rated troops choices in the game) get to shoot you with their S5 guns at double tap range. Yeah your going to lose a lot of models. And the best part? if you lose enough of those front units your going to fail your charge and guess what? Mr Riptide is going to stroll away, blow more holes in your unit and then Jump jet away again.

[

Overwatch is at bs1. IF they have hunter contingent, then they can have 3 or more units simultaneously combine their overwatch to bs2, which means markerlights shot at the same time (at bs2) cannot be used until a subsequent unit fires. IF they fired first, then they are snap shooting bs1 with their markerlights. With hunter contingent maximum range to participate in overwatch is 12" from the unit being charged... How is your riptide shooting as bs 5 in the overwatch? unless they bring the counter-fire support system, which sets overwatch to bs2 (set modifier, so never better) then its giving up EWO or Stimms for it..

Its disingenuous to say the tau player is bringing 45 markerlight sources to try and get to this magical bs5 overwatch all within 12" of the unit being charged.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
BA don't get telepathy. That puts your BA street cred in serious doubt.

"Most Tau list will struggle hard with Fragiosos in pods (intercepting riptides are NOT a counter to this)"

That's what the intercepting broadsides are for.

"Using the SG formation with Dante works excellently even with intercept"

Ion accelerators? No, it doesn't. SG are a dumpster fire even with the new book.

There is no scenario where Tau should even get close to losing to BA. BA have too much crap that is simultaneously overcosted AND perfect targets for Tau weapon systems.

BA don't get telepathy? Yikes... good thing there is only 1 bad power in divination.

 pumaman1 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


As far as over stating Overwatch? yeah not really. So long as a riptide has some firewarriors or a drone squad nearby it will get boosted to at the very least BS3, but probably closer to BS4 and sometimes BS5. It gets to shoot the piss out of you, and then those firewarriors (probably one of the most under rated troops choices in the game) get to shoot you with their S5 guns at double tap range. Yeah your going to lose a lot of models. And the best part? if you lose enough of those front units your going to fail your charge and guess what? Mr Riptide is going to stroll away, blow more holes in your unit and then Jump jet away again.

[

Overwatch is at bs1. IF they have hunter contingent, then they can have 3 or more units simultaneously combine their overwatch to bs2, which means markerlights shot at the same time (at bs2) cannot be used until a subsequent unit fires. IF they fired first, then they are snap shooting bs1 with their markerlights. With hunter contingent maximum range to participate in overwatch is 12" from the unit being charged... How is your riptide shooting as bs 5 in the overwatch? unless they bring the counter-fire support system, which sets overwatch to bs2 (set modifier, so never better) then its giving up EWO or Stimms for it..

Its disingenuous to say the tau player is bringing 45 markerlight sources to try and get to this magical bs5 overwatch all within 12" of the unit being charged.

Well in the list I built that he was referring to, I had 14 markerlights I believe. So, on average thats 2 hits, on a good roll that can be as much as 4. The list I built also was a joke list where the player brings 4 Riptides in a bound list without using the formation.

So its easy to get a Riptide up to BS3, likely to get BS4 and possible to get BS5.

BA don't get telepathy. That puts your BA street cred in serious doubt.

"Most Tau list will struggle hard with Fragiosos in pods (intercepting riptides are NOT a counter to this)"

That's what the intercepting broadsides are for.

"Using the SG formation with Dante works excellently even with intercept"

Ion accelerators? No, it doesn't. SG are a dumpster fire even with the new book.

There is no scenario where Tau should even get close to losing to BA. BA have too much crap that is simultaneously overcosted AND perfect targets for Tau weapon systems.

Just try it sometime.. those 2 pie plates will only hit 1/3 of a time each, if you put dante in front or drop in cover you get a 4++, and 1/6 of a time he gets hot. You can't expect to get into CC with no losses either..
A Fragioso in 5+ cover requires 9 broadsides on average to die to glancing hits, that's already almost half his army then.
True BA specifically don't get telepathy, but there's a lot of other great psychic powers to abuse, especially in the new marine disciplines.

If you only play against competitive Tau lists with riptide wings and all the jazz it's different, but that's not what this thread is about I believe?

Ushtarador wrote:

BA don't get telepathy. That puts your BA street cred in serious doubt.

"Most Tau list will struggle hard with Fragiosos in pods (intercepting riptides are NOT a counter to this)"

That's what the intercepting broadsides are for.

"Using the SG formation with Dante works excellently even with intercept"

Ion accelerators? No, it doesn't. SG are a dumpster fire even with the new book.

There is no scenario where Tau should even get close to losing to BA. BA have too much crap that is simultaneously overcosted AND perfect targets for Tau weapon systems.

Just try it sometime.. those 2 pie plates will only hit 1/3 of a time each, if you put dante in front or drop in cover you get a 4++, and 1/6 of a time he gets hot. You can't expect to get into CC with no losses either..
A Fragioso in 5+ cover requires 9 broadsides on average to die to glancing hits, that's already almost half his army then.
True BA specifically don't get telepathy, but there's a lot of other great psychic powers to abuse, especially in the new marine disciplines.

Cover is a thing against Tau?

"You can't expect to get into CC"

Fixed that for you.

Telepathy has the only power that matters: invisibility. BA psykers might as well not exist without telepathy access. And I don't need to try SG to know that they are dumpster fires. They die miserably to space puppies, too, so there's no reason to ever use them.

The thread is about Riptides, but it's hard not to discuss the Riptide in context. T6 W5 2+/3++/5+++ should be very expensive given the current rules and equipment in the game. Give the Riptide 3+ armor and make the non-NOVA ion accelerator AP 3 and the price point would be about right.

Wait, you mean that we can use CFP in overwatch too?
**cackles madly**

Well, if you only play against competitive Tau lists with riptide wing, 45 markerlight drones in drone nets and some complimentary stormsurges you should have said so.

'Normal' tau lists can definitely be overwhelmed using concentrated alpha strikes. Coordinate your reserves turn 2 (get reserve rerolls, it's possible), use stuff that can charge after DS and eliminate markerlight support in your shooting phase before you charge. Intercept is a very gimped shooting phase for the Tau due to no markerlight support, even if he puts it on every suit he brings. It even allows you to just charge the stuff that didn't intercept first, while the suits have to sit around doing nothing the next turn.

Or footslog your SG and tacticals up the field and die like you are supposed to vs Tau of course.

Ushtarador wrote:
Well, if you only play against competitive Tau lists with riptide wing, 45 markerlight drones in drone nets and some complimentary stormsurges you should have said so.

'Normal' tau lists can definitely be overwhelmed using concentrated alpha strikes. Coordinate your reserves turn 2 (get reserve rerolls, it's possible), use stuff that can charge after DS and eliminate markerlight support in your shooting phase before you charge.
Or footslog your SG and tacticals up the field and die like you are supposed to vs Tau of course.

" if you only play against competitive Tau lists with riptide wing, 45 markerlight drones in drone nets and some complimentary stormsurges you should have said so. "

There are other Tau lists?

I'm BA. Nothing footslogs. I don't even like drop pods because the guys are on foot after they drop. But at the end of the day, BA have precious little that can actually beat a Riptide in CC after wading through all the shooting. Being immortal has its advantages.

Let me put this in perspective: I don't even know what crisis suits do in 7th, because I never see them.

There are other Tau lists, just like some marines don't exclusively field TWC with 5 detachments and first turn tabling potential. If your gaming partners are into ultracheese only, that sucks of course, many people in my store luckily have a flexible attitude.

You don't have to kill the riptide immediately, just putting 5 guys into cc will keep it busy long enough for the cc specialists to come in and mop him up later.

Ushtarador wrote:
There are other Tau lists, just like some marines don't exclusively field TWC with 5 detachments and first turn tabling potential.

You don't have to kill the riptide immediately, just putting 5 guys into cc will keep it busy long enough for the cc specialists to come in and mop him up later.

You keep acting like I have enough squads left on the table to be able to afford putting 5 guys into CC with a Riptide just to tie it up. Maybe if marines were default WS 5, but the Riptide gets 1.5 AP2 hits per melee turn. That adds up fast with a marine list. I'm lucky to get a single crippled squad into CC.

The Riptide is simply too cheap for what it brings to the table.

" just like some marines don't exclusively field TWC with 5 detachments and first turn tabling potential"

You forgot the Wulfen. At least SW have to move to table me.

The problem with the riptide specifically is how effective it is at cc. IMO - it should only have 1 attack - this would make using it to tie up CC specialist units for the duration of the game risky - because with only 1 attack you will almost assuredly have to take a leadership test every turn against real assault units.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The problem with the riptide specifically is how effective it is at cc. IMO - it should only have 1 attack - this would make using it to tie up CC specialist units for the duration of the game risky - because with only 1 attack you will almost assuredly have to take a leadership test every turn against real assault units.

Or take away smash from the Riptide.

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The problem with the riptide specifically is how effective it is at cc. IMO - it should only have 1 attack - this would make using it to tie up CC specialist units for the duration of the game risky - because with only 1 attack you will almost assuredly have to take a leadership test every turn against real assault units.

Or take away smash from the Riptide.

More often than not I am using the 3 attacks over smash anyways. Unless I can ID something with str 10.

You mean no AP2? Yeah - that could work.

If we are talking about balance we really should stick to competitive formations/choices/lists or an environment.

Otherwise we get a massive mutilator thread again which was SO MUCH FUN.

As for formations and the riptide...
The double tap is huge. Riptides get 2-3 turns of firing before things hit melee, so this gives them 3-4 rounds of shooting. This is a 50%-33% increase in shooting, for a formation. Essentially its free unless you weren't taking tides.

EDIT, I don't mean melee with the Tides, that is more a turn 3-4 thing if it ever happens. I meant melee with the troops which can protect you from shooting.

One of the ways riptides die is their Nova shields fail or they can't jump out of the way. The re-roll stops this and effectively gives them +1-2 wounds per game, since that is how many they are likely to lose over the course of 6 turns (I believe it's closer to 1 than 2, but still. A big deal on a unit that is so hard to wound). The odds of killing one via shooting or catching it have just tanked as long as they remain close.

The +1 BS is nice but it's no big deal. This is due to the standard loadouts Tides get and the way this buff works in OW.

There is a reason tides are nearly always taken in the wing formation. It's a series of relatively strong buffs that make the unit that was already good/great, go to broken. To claim it doesn't matter and doesn't make them significantly better is a real stretch considering the firepower buff alone. Imagine turn 1-2 double tap? You could be decimating units before they even get to contribute consider the tides' weapons. It puts you way up on attrition and, best of all, does it incredibly early in the game.


And for the record, I agree with Martel. BA can't play into Tau. KDK can, though it's hard and they are at a disadvantage, but most older dexes fold against a competitive Tau force.

SemperMortis wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


As far as over stating Overwatch? yeah not really. So long as a riptide has some firewarriors or a drone squad nearby it will get boosted to at the very least BS3, but probably closer to BS4 and sometimes BS5. It gets to shoot the piss out of you, and then those firewarriors (probably one of the most under rated troops choices in the game) get to shoot you with their S5 guns at double tap range. Yeah your going to lose a lot of models. And the best part? if you lose enough of those front units your going to fail your charge and guess what? Mr Riptide is going to stroll away, blow more holes in your unit and then Jump jet away again.

[

Overwatch is at bs1. IF they have hunter contingent, then they can have 3 or more units simultaneously combine their overwatch to bs2, which means markerlights shot at the same time (at bs2) cannot be used until a subsequent unit fires. IF they fired first, then they are snap shooting bs1 with their markerlights. With hunter contingent maximum range to participate in overwatch is 12" from the unit being charged... How is your riptide shooting as bs 5 in the overwatch? unless they bring the counter-fire support system, which sets overwatch to bs2 (set modifier, so never better) then its giving up EWO or Stimms for it..

Its disingenuous to say the tau player is bringing 45 markerlight sources to try and get to this magical bs5 overwatch all within 12" of the unit being charged.

Well in the list I built that he was referring to, I had 14 markerlights I believe. So, on average thats 2 hits, on a good roll that can be as much as 4. The list I built also was a joke list where the player brings 4 Riptides in a bound list without using the formation.

So its easy to get a Riptide up to BS3, likely to get BS4 and possible to get BS5.

Right.. but you've now committed how many units to overwatch? this is the classic run units together and charge with the weaker one first to either not be overwatched, and possibly tie the unit up in melee so the strong unit can charge with no overawtch, or the weak unit dies, soaking up all the quality of firepower/overwatch, and now there isn't enough left to do damage. its sacrificing units, but that's nothing, speed bump kroot to slow down deathstars etc.

Well, unless my opponent was playing it wrong, you can just overwatch with the charged unit (say, a unit of Fire Warriors) but not Supporting Fire, then when the REAL unit charges in, use all the Supporting Fire.

Trasvi wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Did you just choose to not read the rest of this at all? People so far have PROVEN how hard it is to delete Riptides. The plethora of Plasma or Melta or Lascannon needed to remove this model is ridiculous.

The number of plasma/melta/lascannon shots needed to kill ANYTHING that isn't a marine on foot is a large number.
Moreover, trying to take on Tau in a shooting match is something that you SHOULD lose. Shooting is Tau's only strength: if they can't beat you at that then the entire army is pointless. Try to capitalize on Tau's weaknesses in movement/psychic/combat.

So what's the excuse for Tau outmatching IG so much?

After all, IG are in the same boat relying on shooting.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Did you just choose to not read the rest of this at all? People so far have PROVEN how hard it is to delete Riptides. The plethora of Plasma or Melta or Lascannon needed to remove this model is ridiculous.

The number of plasma/melta/lascannon shots needed to kill ANYTHING that isn't a marine on foot is a large number.
Moreover, trying to take on Tau in a shooting match is something that you SHOULD lose. Shooting is Tau's only strength: if they can't beat you at that then the entire army is pointless. Try to capitalize on Tau's weaknesses in movement/psychic/combat.

So what's the excuse for Tau outmatching IG so much?

After all, IG are in the same boat relying on shooting.

IG are still in 5ed codex/very first of 6th ed, multiple rounds of codex creep right on past them


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Well, unless my opponent was playing it wrong, you can just overwatch with the charged unit (say, a unit of Fire Warriors) but not Supporting Fire, then when the REAL unit charges in, use all the Supporting Fire.

but now they have to fire even less at you/maximum of 6" away from the unit being charged unless in hunter cadre to 12" which riptide wing is not a part of so doesn't not get that benefit.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:


No it makes sense. I have a great, old friend that is a smart, clever guy, and he loves Tau because of the robots and suits and philosophy and pseudojapanmecha. He would play them even if they were the most underpowered army (when we used to play DnD he was a Rogue player and people, I will never see a Rogue played like that, sadly. Not in 1000 years).

Also, outstanding painter.

That's all great, I love Tau too, and am painting some right now - nothing to do with how they play though.

Just, I think that he could be better challenged. When FW puts out another Riptide model, I am happy for him because he will have fun building and painting it, is such an artist. I am happy hearing that he will have another cool model but...I cannot help thinking that I would need divine intervention to face all the 5 of them together. Of course he is not an ass and can tune down lists when he plays with me but why should he do a job the designers were supposed to do? Same with every Tau rule.

None of that his fault - he can't be blamed for the design of Tau as a tabletop army. If what you said about Vetock's intentions is true, that's poor game design; it should never be acceptable to deliberately design an entire playstyle whereby your opponent is denied their playstyle's abilities and effectiveness. Denial is an interesting game mechanic, and one I like where it is appropriate. It is simply not appropriate to apply to most or all of a certain playstyle.

 pumaman1 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


As far as over stating Overwatch? yeah not really. So long as a riptide has some firewarriors or a drone squad nearby it will get boosted to at the very least BS3, but probably closer to BS4 and sometimes BS5. It gets to shoot the piss out of you, and then those firewarriors (probably one of the most under rated troops choices in the game) get to shoot you with their S5 guns at double tap range. Yeah your going to lose a lot of models. And the best part? if you lose enough of those front units your going to fail your charge and guess what? Mr Riptide is going to stroll away, blow more holes in your unit and then Jump jet away again.

[

Overwatch is at bs1. IF they have hunter contingent, then they can have 3 or more units simultaneously combine their overwatch to bs2, which means markerlights shot at the same time (at bs2) cannot be used until a subsequent unit fires. IF they fired first, then they are snap shooting bs1 with their markerlights. With hunter contingent maximum range to participate in overwatch is 12" from the unit being charged... How is your riptide shooting as bs 5 in the overwatch? unless they bring the counter-fire support system, which sets overwatch to bs2 (set modifier, so never better) then its giving up EWO or Stimms for it..

Its disingenuous to say the tau player is bringing 45 markerlight sources to try and get to this magical bs5 overwatch all within 12" of the unit being charged.

Well in the list I built that he was referring to, I had 14 markerlights I believe. So, on average thats 2 hits, on a good roll that can be as much as 4. The list I built also was a joke list where the player brings 4 Riptides in a bound list without using the formation.

So its easy to get a Riptide up to BS3, likely to get BS4 and possible to get BS5.

Right.. but you've now committed how many units to overwatch? this is the classic run units together and charge with the weaker one first to either not be overwatched, and possibly tie the unit up in melee so the strong unit can charge with no overawtch, or the weak unit dies, soaking up all the quality of firepower/overwatch, and now there isn't enough left to do damage. its sacrificing units, but that's nothing, speed bump kroot to slow down deathstars etc.

Well, its been my experience that against Tau, you generally don't get more then 1-2 units into CC because they are all dead before they get that close. Against 4 Riptides your going to lose whole squads each turn. 4 Pie plates at high strength low AP means LOTS of dead models. And unless your a special snowflake that doesn't have to worry about leadership, this quickly becomes a problem. IN his example he was fielding 20 khorne hounds, those are 2W models which get doubled out easily enough and with only a 5++ it happens a lot. On turn 1 4 riptides could easily devestate those 2 squads of hounds to the point where they are no longer effective. probably leaving 2-3 models alive in each squad. Keep in mind on the Tau players turn he is backing away from the real threats and utilizing common sense to keep his big robots away from danger. And since his big robots are also as fast as Skimmers its not hard to do. ON turn 2 the Firewarriors will probably take down the remaining hounds. (especially with ethereals nearby) That leaves all 4 riptides free to go feth up the D-Thirster or the Khorne Lord, both of which are fast but not fast enough to catch the Riptides outright. The lord probably dies on this turn and the D-thirster is either ignored or with lucky rolls gets a wound or two taken off because the Lord died. At most the Tau player will sacrifice one of his Riptides to the enemy to slow him down and give the Tau player a chance to move away and secure more territory. At the end of the day, Tau should win that battle most of the time, barring stupidity and bad rolls.

Tau weakness in the movement phase? How do they have a weakness with numerous 60" guns, interceptor, and lots and lots of jet pack units. The reason tau players don't move from their deployment zone is that they don't have to, not because they're super slow. They can outrange and outgun you before you even reach their lines to offer up your 'strength' in melee.

Psychic phase? I think its a lot easier to kill a psyker than a formation of 3-5 jump monstrous creatures with 2+/4++/5++. You can't even get close to spamming an amount that could survive enough to get close unless you play tzeentch demons. I don't mean to sound like I'm being a stick in the mud for the sake of it but librarius conclaves and the like aren't even close to as durable, yet are still a lot of points, and still not even that comparable to the riptide wing in terms of effectiveness.

edit: thinking about your scenario made me realize how much more durable the riptide is compared to a freakin' greater demon of the god of war. I think at that point even the most die hard tau player can realize that maaaaaaaybe things are a little off. Maybe Khorne needs some of that experimental alloy with stim injectors.

 Don Savik wrote:
Tau weakness in the movement phase? How do they have a weakness with numerous 60" guns, interceptor, and lots and lots of jet pack units. The reason tau players don't move from their deployment zone is that they don't have to, not because they're super slow. They can outrange and outgun you before you even reach their lines to offer up your 'strength' in melee.

Psychic phase? I think its a lot easier to kill a psyker than a formation of 3-5 jump monstrous creatures with 2+/4++/5++. You can't even get close to spamming an amount that could survive enough to get close unless you play tzeentch demons. I don't mean to sound like I'm being a stick in the mud for the sake of it but librarius conclaves and the like aren't even close to as durable, yet are still a lot of points, and still not even that comparable to the riptide wing in terms of effectiveness.

Stop it your making sense. You know that is against the rules

 General Annoyance wrote:


None of that his fault - he can't be blamed for the design of Tau as a tabletop army. If what you said about Vetock's intentions is true, that's poor game design; it should never be acceptable to deliberately design an entire playstyle whereby your opponent is denied their playstyle's abilities and effectiveness. Denial is an interesting game mechanic, and one I like where it is appropriate. It is simply not appropriate to apply to most or all of a certain playstyle.

Look, I am always a bit tongue-in-cheek with the GW designers, a bit like Red Letter Media's Plinkett with George Lucas (hence the "hack frauds" reference).

Probably GW overworks these creative people or just refuses to pay an editor, someone that reins those ideas that fall into "sounds great Jeremy but..." category and lets the many good ones flow.
Someone with a direction, a global vision. So no hard feelings for the good old Jeremy, especially not because a game of plastic puppets.

Said this, I think you said it all with the Blue comparison with MtG.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Did you just choose to not read the rest of this at all? People so far have PROVEN how hard it is to delete Riptides. The plethora of Plasma or Melta or Lascannon needed to remove this model is ridiculous.

The number of plasma/melta/lascannon shots needed to kill ANYTHING that isn't a marine on foot is a large number.
Moreover, trying to take on Tau in a shooting match is something that you SHOULD lose. Shooting is Tau's only strength: if they can't beat you at that then the entire army is pointless. Try to capitalize on Tau's weaknesses in movement/psychic/combat.

So what's the excuse for Tau outmatching IG so much?

After all, IG are in the same boat relying on shooting.

Actually, I want to hear this too. Please tell myself and others how we are supposed to compete against a codex that does everything we do, but better.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Did you just choose to not read the rest of this at all? People so far have PROVEN how hard it is to delete Riptides. The plethora of Plasma or Melta or Lascannon needed to remove this model is ridiculous.

The number of plasma/melta/lascannon shots needed to kill ANYTHING that isn't a marine on foot is a large number.
Moreover, trying to take on Tau in a shooting match is something that you SHOULD lose. Shooting is Tau's only strength: if they can't beat you at that then the entire army is pointless. Try to capitalize on Tau's weaknesses in movement/psychic/combat.

So what's the excuse for Tau outmatching IG so much?

After all, IG are in the same boat relying on shooting.

Actually, I want to hear this too. Please tell myself and others how we are supposed to compete against a codex that does everything we do, but better.

I'll answer this.

Bodies, AV14, artillery formations that ignore cover, FW, titans, TONS of allies, and meelee are guard's answers.
A list with an Armoured battlegroup, Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery, and blobs of guardsman combined can remove literally every threat Tau has pretty reliably. In short, Tau DOESN'T do everything IG does better. It shoots better, has some better formations, and moves better. That's really about it. Play your guard smart, and you won't get utterly stomped.

This is not to say that Tau are not a more powerful codex overall, but IG has plenty of answers to most things in the game outside of certain deathstars.

From a gameplay perspective, the Tau should have greater quality of shots and, making use of skimmer transports and jetpacks, be more mobile than the guard.

IG should make up for this by having more bodies, more heavy tanks and artillery, all of which together should put out more shots than the Tau but of lower quality (S3 Lasguns vs S5 Pulse Rifles, S8 Leman Russ shots vs S10 Railgun etc.).

Unfortunately GW can't write rules for gak so we instead get Tau with rules and models which encourage turtling up and just putting a lot of mid to mid-high strength shots downrange.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
From a gameplay perspective, the Tau should have greater quality of shots and, making use of skimmer transports and jetpacks, be more mobile than the guard.

IG should make up for this by having more bodies, more heavy tanks and artillery, all of which together should put out more shots than the Tau but of lower quality (S3 Lasguns vs S5 Pulse Rifles, S8 Leman Russ shots vs S10 Railgun etc.).

Unfortunately GW can't write rules for gak so we instead get Tau with rules and models which encourage turtling up and just putting a lot of mid to mid-high strength shots downrange.

nobody brings railgun hammerheads, because it's a 1 shot weapon, and ROF is king. It's not even armorbane or anything special. If you see one, its probably running ion-head, or skyray.

Riptides cannot hurt front armor 14 with the standard weapon, glance on overcharge, maybe pen with nova charge (then no 3++), but that's ap2. So it can explode.. but its more likely to scatter than hit. and even with ordinance 2/3 chance of doing nothing at all.

other weapons in the arsenal are also 1 shot, or rely on deepstrike, which 1-150 point blob of conscripts can stop with mishap, and absorb many wounds, and theoretically provide cover with intervening models, YMMV due to terrain and 25% obscured. pop a priest in the blob, and fearless blob is fearless.

 chrispy1991 wrote:

I'll answer this.

Bodies, AV14, artillery formations that ignore cover, FW, titans, TONS of allies, and meelee are guard's answers.
A list with an Armoured battlegroup, Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery, and blobs of guardsman combined can remove literally every threat Tau has pretty reliably. In short, Tau DOESN'T do everything IG does better.

You do weight of fire better, you do cover ignoring shots better than us thanks to Markerlights, etc.

It shoots better, has some better formations, and moves better. That's really about it. Play your guard smart, and you won't get utterly stomped.

By that same vein, play your Tau smart and there isn't a thing Guard can do to touch you.

I'm not going to tell you what is wrong with you whining about the Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery or talking about Allies and FW Titans, just that it shows how totally inept you are as a Tau player it seems.

This is not to say that Tau are not a more powerful codex overall, but IG has plenty of answers to most things in the game outside of certain deathstars.

Such as...?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 chrispy1991 wrote:

I'll answer this.

Bodies, AV14, artillery formations that ignore cover, FW, titans, TONS of allies, and meelee are guard's answers.
A list with an Armoured battlegroup, Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery, and blobs of guardsman combined can remove literally every threat Tau has pretty reliably. In short, Tau DOESN'T do everything IG does better.

You do weight of fire better, you do cover ignoring shots better than us thanks to Markerlights, etc.

It shoots better, has some better formations, and moves better. That's really about it. Play your guard smart, and you won't get utterly stomped.

By that same vein, play your Tau smart and there isn't a thing Guard can do to touch you.

I'm not going to tell you what is wrong with you whining about the Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery or talking about Allies and FW Titans, just that it shows how totally inept you are as a Tau player it seems.

This is not to say that Tau are not a more powerful codex overall, but IG has plenty of answers to most things in the game outside of certain deathstars.

Such as...?

Being personally insulting i see.
Chrispy doesn't play tau. He is exclusively guard. sooo yeah.

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 chrispy1991 wrote:

I'll answer this.

Bodies, AV14, artillery formations that ignore cover, FW, titans, TONS of allies, and meelee are guard's answers.
A list with an Armoured battlegroup, Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery, and blobs of guardsman combined can remove literally every threat Tau has pretty reliably. In short, Tau DOESN'T do everything IG does better.

You do weight of fire better, you do cover ignoring shots better than us thanks to Markerlights, etc.

It shoots better, has some better formations, and moves better. That's really about it. Play your guard smart, and you won't get utterly stomped.

By that same vein, play your Tau smart and there isn't a thing Guard can do to touch you.

I'm not going to tell you what is wrong with you whining about the Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery or talking about Allies and FW Titans, just that it shows how totally inept you are as a Tau player it seems.

This is not to say that Tau are not a more powerful codex overall, but IG has plenty of answers to most things in the game outside of certain deathstars.

Such as...?

Being personally insulting i see.

Condescending statements such as what he made from the start get condescending replies. Talking about allies and FW Titans as something that "Guard can do" is useless. Not everyone has FW Titans or wants to run Allied lists to make their army competitive.

Chrispy doesn't play tau. He is exclusively guard. sooo yeah.

Then he should know that everything he posted is nonsense. The EWAB is only as powerful as the items taken within it, and the minute the CCS is off the field the formation loses its benefit(the ability to receive Orders from that CCS) is the minute it loses its usefulness.

The same thing goes for the Armored Company; the minute that Command Tank is taken out is the minute it loses its effectiveness.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 chrispy1991 wrote:

I'll answer this.

Bodies, AV14, artillery formations that ignore cover, FW, titans, TONS of allies, and meelee are guard's answers.
A list with an Armoured battlegroup, Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery, and blobs of guardsman combined can remove literally every threat Tau has pretty reliably. In short, Tau DOESN'T do everything IG does better.

You do weight of fire better, you do cover ignoring shots better than us thanks to Markerlights, etc.

It shoots better, has some better formations, and moves better. That's really about it. Play your guard smart, and you won't get utterly stomped.

By that same vein, play your Tau smart and there isn't a thing Guard can do to touch you.

I'm not going to tell you what is wrong with you whining about the Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery or talking about Allies and FW Titans, just that it shows how totally inept you are as a Tau player it seems.

This is not to say that Tau are not a more powerful codex overall, but IG has plenty of answers to most things in the game outside of certain deathstars.

Such as...?

Being personally insulting i see.

Condescending statements such as what he made from the start get condescending replies. Talking about allies and FW Titans as something that "Guard can do" is useless. Not everyone has FW Titans or wants to run Allied lists to make their army competitive.

Chrispy doesn't play tau. He is exclusively guard. sooo yeah.

Then he should know that everything he posted is nonsense. The EWAB is only as powerful as the items taken within it, and the minute the CCS is off the field the formation loses its benefit(the ability to receive Orders from that CCS) is the minute it loses its usefulness.

The same thing goes for the Armored Company; the minute that Command Tank is taken out is the minute it loses its effectiveness.

You really think that was condescending? That wasn't condescending, that was me telling you to quit whining about how Tau supposedly outdo guard in is supposed only strength, despite that guard's strength is in its combined arms approach, not just shootiness.
Now I'm being condescending, because now I'm going to tell you that you're beneath trying to argue with because no matter what I say or what formations or tactics I try to bring up, you will never agree because you're fixated on nothing buts Tau's greater overall codex power. Good day and goodbye lesser player. I've put my two cents into this thread and don't really care anymore whether you agree with it.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
From a gameplay perspective, the Tau should have greater quality of shots and, making use of skimmer transports and jetpacks, be more mobile than the guard.

IG should make up for this by having more bodies, more heavy tanks and artillery, all of which together should put out more shots than the Tau but of lower quality (S3 Lasguns vs S5 Pulse Rifles, S8 Leman Russ shots vs S10 Railgun etc.).

Unfortunately GW can't write rules for gak so we instead get Tau with rules and models which encourage turtling up and just putting a lot of mid to mid-high strength shots downrange.

This is how the relationship between Tau and Guard used to work, back in the days of 4th edition and 5th edition. Tau had superior mobility and higher quality units that could focus fire better, but guard had superior numbers and more raw firepower. It was IG that could put more shots down at long range and that had the really nasty large blast templates (it used to be the best large blast Tau had was str 6, ap 4). This seemed to be a really good contrast between the two armies. But once Tau got the 6th edition codex they basically became Imperial Guard 2.0, with a large number of things that could throw large blast templates across the board and the ability to put out massive torrents of mid strength shots. There are still some elements remaining for the old, surgical move and scoot style of play such as the Crisis Suits, but a lot of the army now seems to be designed to just pummel the enemy from across the board.

 chrispy1991 wrote:


I'll answer this.

Go on then, we are all waiting

Bodies,

Wait what? When Guard play against Tau, Guard bodies get removed faster than panties in hentai.

AV14,

AV14? You do know that JSJ Fusion blaster crisis suits and Railgun Broadsides are a thing?

artillery

This is a joke, right? Artillery needs to be hidden from LOS to survive beyond turn 1 against Tau, and if it is hidden it suffers from a massive minimal range.

formations that ignore cover,

We have formations that ignore cover? News to me. Now, good luck getting within range.

FW,

Ahh yes, the age old "FW is better" fallacy. The FW IG stuff has not been properly updated since earl/mid 5th and is, barring one or two units which are no good against tau anyway, largely crap.

titans,

Ahahahahaha, very funny. Wait, you where serious? Does this not say something to you? And besides, how many players can actually afford to lose a kidney and half their liver to purchase a lump of resin?

TONS of allies,

Well, so THAT is the answer, to face a pure Tau list the Guard player should discard his Guard and bring a different army instead. How exactly is this the answer?

and meelee

Please describe exactly how one gets there without losing ones entire army to 3+ turns worth of shooting?

are guard's answers.

No they are not. Of your eight "answers" four are bad at the best of times and utterly useless against Tau, one is an obscenely expensive unit that the tau player will most likely refuse to play against, one is a formation that does not exist, one is utterly impossible to perform owing to a lack of delivery and one is basically saying "get rid of your Guard and bring a better army".
None of these are answers.

A list with an Armoured battlegroup,

Will die to Railsides, skirmishing JSJ Fusion Blaster crisis suits and Stormsurges (do not forget that all damage from the 'D' table spills over across the squadron).

Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery,

Requires LoS blocking terrain just to survive, and if hidden as thus will be unable to shoot over half the standard board.

and blobs of guardsman

Who will vanish faster than a snowman in Egypt to obscene levels of tau shooting.

can remove literally every threat Tau has pretty reliably.

As proven above, no, none of this can even touch tau. Unless you are bringing about twice the points level of course.

In short, Tau DOESN'T do everything IG does better.

Apart from volume of shooting, quality of shooting, tanky units, mobility, Close Combat avoidance, Ignores Cover, overwatch, DS/Outflank denial, etc....

It shoots better, has some better formations, and moves better.

So in other words, everything.

That's really about it.

"Its okay guys, Tau are just IG V2.0, there is nothing to worry about. I know that they do everything you do etter but you can beat them, provided you ditch your army for a better one and get a second mortgage to buy some massive units you will almost never be able to use".

Play your guard smart, and you won't get utterly stomped.

Provided the Tau player is a complete moron.

This is not to say that Tau are not a more powerful codex overall, but IG has plenty of answers to most things in the game outside of certain deathstars.

"IG have plenty of answers to most things"
And there you just showed the sheer level and depth of your ignorance.

It's hard to deepstrike fusion suits close to a vehicle with 50 spaced conscripts around it. Fusion suits don't kill bodies quickly.

You don't care about your conscripts lives, they are there to die over 3+ turns.

Rail-sides? really, over missile-sides? If you are going to have an argument, you can constantly change the circumstances within the argument. becuase also, rail-sides cannot kill volume of bodies

Melee happens if you have objectives in the middle of the board/on your side, and you are playing maelstrom, so it happens.

It's an order to ignore cover, that the formation allows you to order to your artillery.

Calm down, he brought you played strategies that work, not just theory crafting.

 master of ordinance wrote:

AV14,

AV14? You do know that JSJ Fusion blaster crisis suits and Railgun Broadsides are a thing?

A list with an Armoured battlegroup,

Will die to Railsides, skirmishing JSJ Fusion Blaster crisis suits and Stormsurges (do not forget that all damage from the 'D' table spills over across the squadron).

Ok, you've got two things wrong here. One, Broadsides with S10 railguns are not a thing anymore. Not in the 7e codex, and not in the 6e codex either. Broadside rail weapons are S8 AP1, no armourbane, lance, melta, haywire, D, etc. They're nearly useless against AV14.

Second, the results from single D hits do not spill over across a squadron - all the damage from a single D hit is resolved against a model, not a unit. A D blast can score multiple hits, but where is *that* coming from?

Tau mostly do IG's schtick better, that I'll agree with, but if you routinely play against Tau players who are using their Broadsides with S10 railguns and D blasts, then they're doing it wrong. (I'd go so far as to say cheating.)

 pumaman1 wrote:
It's hard to deepstrike fusion suits close to a vehicle with 50 spaced conscripts around it. Fusion suits don't kill bodies quickly.

Cue the world's smallest violin.
So what if it's hard for you to deep strike? The Guard player can't do anything about your Deep Strike unless they've brought in Inquisitorial elements or got lucky with Psykers and got the ability to Intercept via that way.

You don't care about your conscripts lives, they are there to die over 3+ turns.

You must roll pretty poorly or your Guard opponents have hot dice; because I have never had Conscripts last 3+ turns against Tau.

Rail-sides? really, over missile-sides? If you are going to have an argument, you can constantly change the circumstances within the argument. becuase also, rail-sides cannot kill volume of bodies

Railsides can kill tanks. Admittedly they're far worse than HYMPs are; but that's because vehicles are gimped thanks to glancing nonsense.

And really, you just changed the circumstances within the argument there as his point about railsides was responding to the idea that AV14 is some kind of amazing thing.

Melee happens if you have objectives in the middle of the board/on your side, and you are playing maelstrom, so it happens.

Sure melee happens...but so do things that can actually withstand S3 AP - hits from Guardsmen.

It's an order to ignore cover, that the formation allows you to order to your artillery.

Which becomes moot if the other person kills the lone Company Command Squad that is part of this formation.

Calm down, he brought you played strategies that work, not just theory crafting.

Except he didn't actually bring played strategies that work against Tau.

Face facts here:
Tau and IG are not on the same level. Tau do everything the IG are supposed to do better, without the hamstringing effect of Orders that the IG have. Markerlights are the closest equivalent to Orders that the Tau have, but they are so far beyond the scope of what Orders actually are that it is downright offensive that Tau players have the gall to complain about ONE formation that lets the Basilisk, Manticore, or Hydra(because those are the only ones that actually benefit from "Fire on my Target!" and the Ignores Cover it provides) have a bit of a heyday again--and even then, taking Hydras is a dummy prize because who would take Hydras at this point in the game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

AV14,

AV14? You do know that JSJ Fusion blaster crisis suits and Railgun Broadsides are a thing?

A list with an Armoured battlegroup,

Will die to Railsides, skirmishing JSJ Fusion Blaster crisis suits and Stormsurges (do not forget that all damage from the 'D' table spills over across the squadron).

Ok, you've got two things wrong here. One, Broadsides with S10 railguns are not a thing anymore. Not in the 7e codex, and not in the 6e codex either. Broadside rail weapons are S8 AP1, no armourbane, lance, melta, haywire, D, etc. They're nearly useless against AV14.

Second, the results from single D hits do not spill over across a squadron - all the damage from a single D hit is resolved against a model, not a unit. A D blast can score multiple hits, but where is *that* coming from?

Tau mostly do IG's schtick better, that I'll agree with, but if you routinely play against Tau players who are using their Broadsides with S10 railguns and D blasts, then they're doing it wrong. (I'd go so far as to say cheating.)

I think you're clumping together two concepts...

Stormsurges have a Strength D in the form of the Pulse Blastcannon. Yes, it's at ranges of 10" but it is still a Strength D.

It's not blast or spreading, as mentioned, but it is still not the same as Broadsides with S10 Railguns.

pumaman1 wrote:It's hard to deepstrike fusion suits close to a vehicle with 50 spaced conscripts around it. Fusion suits don't kill bodies quickly.

Cry me a river. At least you can DEEPSTRIKE, let alone do it without having half the enemy army shoot at you out of turn.

You don't care about your conscripts lives, they are there to die over 3+ turns.

I do not run conscripts on account of them needing platoons. Veterans a re a far better choice.

Rail-sides? really, over missile-sides? If you are going to have an argument, you can constantly change the circumstances within the argument. becuase also, rail-sides cannot kill volume of bodies

You did say AV14. The rest of the army does the killing bodies bit.

Melee happens if you have objectives in the middle of the board/on your side, and you are playing maelstrom, so it happens.

Not really. The Tau player shoots things, drives up in his suits/skimmers/rapetide wing and then shoots anything within the vicinity. Anything that survives is then gunned down by half that Tau players army in overwatch.

It's an order to ignore cover, that the formation allows you to order to your artillery.

Ah yes, that artillery that is so fragile it will have to choose between only engaging the Tau players rear lines or getting shot to gak on turn 1. Also, that order requires a rather dubious LD test. How about we make Markerlights only available as 2 per HQ choice with a LD7 check required to use them each turn?
No, I thought not.

Calm down, he brought you played strategies that work, not just theory crafting.

Except they do not work. At all. Ever. Unless you have 1.5 to 2.5 thousand pounds to drop on a Titan.

Kanluwen wrote:

Stormsurges have a Strength D in the form of the Pulse Blastcannon. Yes, it's at ranges of 10" but it is still a Strength D.
.

I am on about those big missiles. If you are hit with a markerlight they count as S 'D' when shooting at you. Stupid, I know, but it is Tau.
Oh, and thanks for backing me up

 Kanluwen wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
It's hard to deepstrike fusion suits close to a vehicle with 50 spaced conscripts around it. Fusion suits don't kill bodies quickly.

Cue the world's smallest violin.
So what if it's hard for you to deep strike? The Guard player can't do anything about your Deep Strike unless they've brought in Inquisitorial elements or got lucky with Psykers and got the ability to Intercept via that way.

You don't care about your conscripts lives, they are there to die over 3+ turns.

You must roll pretty poorly or your Guard opponents have hot dice; because I have never had Conscripts last 3+ turns against Tau.

Rail-sides? really, over missile-sides? If you are going to have an argument, you can constantly change the circumstances within the argument. becuase also, rail-sides cannot kill volume of bodies

Railsides can kill tanks. Admittedly they're far worse than HYMPs are; but that's because vehicles are gimped thanks to glancing nonsense.

And really, you just changed the circumstances within the argument there as his point about railsides was responding to the idea that AV14 is some kind of amazing thing.

Melee happens if you have objectives in the middle of the board/on your side, and you are playing maelstrom, so it happens.

Sure melee happens...but so do things that can actually withstand S3 AP - hits from Guardsmen.

It's an order to ignore cover, that the formation allows you to order to your artillery.

Which becomes moot if the other person kills the lone Company Command Squad that is part of this formation.

Calm down, he brought you played strategies that work, not just theory crafting.

Except he didn't actually bring played strategies that work against Tau.

Face facts here:
Tau and IG are not on the same level. Tau do everything the IG are supposed to do better, without the hamstringing effect of Orders that the IG have. Markerlights are the closest equivalent to Orders that the Tau have, but they are so far beyond the scope of what Orders actually are that it is downright offensive that Tau players have the gall to complain about ONE formation that lets the Basilisk, Manticore, or Hydra(because those are the only ones that actually benefit from "Fire on my Target!" and the Ignores Cover it provides) have a bit of a heyday again--and even then, taking Hydras is a dummy prize because who would take Hydras at this point in the game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

AV14,

AV14? You do know that JSJ Fusion blaster crisis suits and Railgun Broadsides are a thing?

A list with an Armoured battlegroup,

Will die to Railsides, skirmishing JSJ Fusion Blaster crisis suits and Stormsurges (do not forget that all damage from the 'D' table spills over across the squadron).

Ok, you've got two things wrong here. One, Broadsides with S10 railguns are not a thing anymore. Not in the 7e codex, and not in the 6e codex either. Broadside rail weapons are S8 AP1, no armourbane, lance, melta, haywire, D, etc. They're nearly useless against AV14.

Second, the results from single D hits do not spill over across a squadron - all the damage from a single D hit is resolved against a model, not a unit. A D blast can score multiple hits, but where is *that* coming from?

Tau mostly do IG's schtick better, that I'll agree with, but if you routinely play against Tau players who are using their Broadsides with S10 railguns and D blasts, then they're doing it wrong. (I'd go so far as to say cheating.)

I think you're clumping together two concepts...

Stormsurges have a Strength D in the form of the Pulse Blastcannon. Yes, it's at ranges of 10" but it is still a Strength D.

It's not blast or spreading, as mentioned, but it is still not the same as Broadsides with S10 Railguns.

No violin was meant to be played, it is a strategy to negate your fear of fusion suits, in order to not peril, i have to deep strike far away. I am not whining, its a good stategy.

If you never had 50 person fearless squad survive 3+ turns, i don't believe you. it would take 180 firewarrior shots to attempt to kill them in 1 turn, in rapid fire range (ie chargebale) thats 7.5 max squads of firewarriors.

heavy rail rifles can only glance armor 14 in a 1/6 chance on the to wound roll, so the 3 shots fire, 2 shots hit after TL, you have a 1/3 chance of losing 1 hp with no other ill effects. Further, the argument was bodies are no way to insulate/defend against wounds, and missile-sides deal far more wounds to bodies/troops than rail-sides. Also, if they move they snap-shoot, so you can neuter them pretty easily. and 1 las cannon ID's them at t4. something you can but on most vehicles.

and guardsmen can withstand s3 a- hits from WS2 firewarriors, your point about melee? in fact the only non WS2 units in the codex, are HQ, vespid (which are a never take) and kroot, who are all of ws3 scary.

Protect your company command squad? how hard is it to hide them out of LOS, making them impossible to assign wounds to per BRB besides SMS.. which is onyl on vehicles, riptide, and broadsides, which are across the board as your complaint, so out of range.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

Hydras will be valuable if Death from the Skies becomes the main rules. Mark my words.

From a BA perspective, these lists have a lot of similarities. There are some key differences.

1) Large AP 2 pieplates from Tau have easy access to ignore cover and can't be suppressed and are almost impossible to get off the board.

2) Foreboding and misfortune can give IG Tau-level overwatch shenanigans and better psychic defense. Fun fact: misfortuned Wraithknights die to FRFSF easily, but Riptides survive it! Also, misfortuned flyrants die to prescienced FRFSF blobs. In fact, there is no Tyranid bug that can survive it.

3) Tau have access to strength D in the form of the Stormsurge

4) IG flyers are much more dangerous to my lists that are using Stormravens

5) Lack of interceptor makes drop pods much easier to use against IG

6) IG are MUCH better at bubblewrapping. This can sometimes make broadsides and markerlights easy targets for fragnoughts. Forcing interceptor fire vs fragnoughts is a big win for BA. Especially now that the Lost Brotherhood rape train starts 6" closer.

Overall, IG are easier, but not nearly as easy as MoO makes them out to be. IG are still better at playing 7th ed 40K than BA, even after Angel's blade. Power armor assault lists are still dumpster fires.

In a head to head comparison, the Riptide should EASILY be double the points of a Leman Russ. But Russes are acknowledged by most to be utter trash in 7th, so that's not a fair benchmark. In the current meta, I wouldn't pay more than 125 for a base Leman Russ. Maybe less. AV14 is that worthless now.

 pumaman1 wrote:

No violin was meant to be played, it is a strategy to negate your fear of fusion suits, in order to not peril, i have to deep strike far away. I am not whining, its a good stategy.

It's a strategy, certainly. Bubblewrapping vehicles has been one for a long while.

But guess what? You can always take the time to shoot the things away before dropping in Fusion suits.

If you never had 50 person fearless squad survive 3+ turns, i don't believe you.

Where's the Fearless coming from? Because that isn't a standard feature on Guardsmen. And you specifically had stated Conscripts, which are not the same thing as a 50 person Combined Squad.

So which of the two is it?

You lambasted Master of Ordinance for changing the circumstances of the scenario but now you've added more variables.

it would take 180 firewarrior shots to attempt to kill them in 1 turn, in rapid fire range (ie chargeable) thats 7.5 max squads of firewarriors.

Rapid Fire range isn't the only way for Fire Warriors to be putting additional shots out though, is it? Is this 180 shots before or after Markerlights have boosted your BS and/or stripped Cover?

Taking your example of them needing to be in Rapid Fire range...
Fire Warrior Squads with an Ethereal nearby invoking "Storm of Fire"(+1 shot at half range) and a Fireblade in each squad that allows for Volley Fire(additional shot while remaining stationary) mean that each of those Fire Warriors can be putting out 4 shots each.
That means 45 Fire Warriors can put out those 180 shots. That's 4 full squads and a single minimum squad of Fire Warriors.
That is also not taking into account any Gun Drones that could potentially be attached to the squads adding their Pulse Carbine shots to the weight of fire as well.

heavy rail rifles can only glance armor 14 in a 1/6 chance on the to wound roll, so the 3 shots fire, 2 shots hit after TL, you have a 1/3 chance of losing 1 hp with no other ill effects.

If only there were a formation or items which granted rules like Tank Hunter for suits...

Further, the argument was bodies are no way to insulate/defend against wounds, and missile-sides deal far more wounds to bodies/troops than rail-sides. Also, if they move they snap-shoot, so you can neuter them pretty easily. and 1 las cannon ID's them at t4. something you can but on most vehicles.

Why are the Broadsides moving?
And really? You're talking about them snapshooting as a way to "neuter" them, when you can bring their BS back up to their pre-Snap Shooting level or even go higher with Markerlights?

Hell, there's even a formation which makes it easier for you in the form of the "Ranged Support Cadre" making it so that Broadsides from the formation can double the value of Markerlight counters from their formation's Pathfinders.

and guardsmen can withstand s3 a- hits from WS2 firewarriors, your point about melee? in fact the only non WS2 units in the codex, are HQ, vespid (which are a never take) and kroot, who are all of ws3 scary.

Sure Guardsmen can withstand those hits, but the point you're missing is that saying "Melee is what Guard should be doing to beat Tau" is ridiculous.

Protect your company command squad? how hard is it to hide them out of LOS, making them impossible to assign wounds to per BRB besides SMS.. which is onyl on vehicles, riptide, and broadsides, which are across the board as your complaint, so out of range.

Okay, do you not understand the difference between "protecting a Company Command Squad" and "protecting the formation specific Company Command Squad"?

Because that seems to be something you are absolutely failing to grasp.
Well that and the fact that the range on Orders(without Warlord Traits that up that range) means that they are extremely susceptible to blasts/templates laid down onto the vehicles as well.

I thought this was a thread about riptides?

Although some of the rage against Tau here seems incredibly misplaced. Either your opponents are cheating you, or you haven't actually played against Tau since 5th edition. What's more, people are suggesting how to counter specific Tau tactics (eg, a 1500pt army with 4 riptides can't do much damage to 4 Leman Russ), and the replies are about how a completely different Tau army that magically contains a zillion of every single Tau unit and formation can overpower that.

Seriously, who even brings up Railsides? I haven't seen them in a game since missilesides became available. They're objectively worse against every single target in the game apart from the 1/6 chance to glance AV14... and if your opponent is using 200 points of Broadsides plus 80 points of markerlights plus 100+ points of Tank Hunter Commander to do 1 HP to an AV14 vehicle, you've won the game already.


Yes, guard probably can't take out Tau in melee. Although a fearless blob can do wonders in tying up Tau for the rest of the game. But guard can often compete with Tau in shooting:
Tau shooting is often shorter range than Guard shooting. Ion Accelerators are long range; HYMPs are 36"; and most of the rest of Tau shooting requires closer range than that. You can use that to your advantage.
Tau rely heavily on markerlights, and all markerlight platforms are squishy, relatively static and short ranged. A turn or two of Wyvern shooting can take out the markerlight support or firewarriors.
Tau don't like Battle Cannons or Lascannons. Yes, riptides are fairly impervious to that kind of damage; but Crisis suits and Broadsides do not want to be hit by these, and they outrange any of the guns Tau can use to hurt the platforms carrying them.

I'm not saying it won't be an uphill battle: in these days of 7th Edition the guard codex is showing its age. But you're not actually facing up against someone who has brought 9 broadsides AND 5 riptides, so its disingenuous to talk as if you need to take them all on at once.

Trasvi wrote:
I thought this was a thread about riptides?

Although some of the rage against Tau here seems incredibly misplaced. Either your opponents are cheating you, or you haven't actually played against Tau since 5th edition. What's more, people are suggesting how to counter specific Tau tactics (eg, a 1500pt army with 4 riptides can't do much damage to 4 Leman Russ), and the replies are about how a completely different Tau army that magically contains a zillion of every single Tau unit and formation can overpower that.

Seriously, who even brings up Railsides? I haven't seen them in a game since missilesides became available. They're objectively worse against every single target in the game apart from the 1/6 chance to glance AV14... and if your opponent is using 200 points of Broadsides plus 80 points of markerlights plus 100+ points of Tank Hunter Commander to do 1 HP to an AV14 vehicle, you've won the game already.


Yes, guard probably can't take out Tau in melee. Although a fearless blob can do wonders in tying up Tau for the rest of the game. But guard can often compete with Tau in shooting:
Tau shooting is often shorter range than Guard shooting. Ion Accelerators are long range; HYMPs are 36"; and most of the rest of Tau shooting requires closer range than that. You can use that to your advantage.
Tau rely heavily on markerlights, and all markerlight platforms are squishy, relatively static and short ranged. A turn or two of Wyvern shooting can take out the markerlight support or firewarriors.
Tau don't like Battle Cannons or Lascannons. Yes, riptides are fairly impervious to that kind of damage; but Crisis suits and Broadsides do not want to be hit by these, and they outrange any of the guns Tau can use to hurt the platforms carrying them.

I'm not saying it won't be an uphill battle: in these days of 7th Edition the guard codex is showing its age. But you're not actually facing up against someone who has brought 9 broadsides AND 5 riptides, so its disingenuous to talk as if you need to take them all on at once.

people got off topic quite a bit, my original point in bringing up the 4 Riptides in a list was how easy it is to field them in numbers without having to rely on a formation. Realistically you don't need 4 but in a 1,500 game you can easily bring that many. Switching back to a normal game mode, in a 1,500 game a Tau player can easily bring 2 Riptides along with some missilesides and the supporting staff with markerlights and have almost zero skill in playing the game and they stand a good chance to win. That is how easy Tau are to play and how OP the units are.

 Kanluwen wrote:

jade_angel wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

AV14,

AV14? You do know that JSJ Fusion blaster crisis suits and Railgun Broadsides are a thing?

A list with an Armoured battlegroup,

Will die to Railsides, skirmishing JSJ Fusion Blaster crisis suits and Stormsurges (do not forget that all damage from the 'D' table spills over across the squadron).

Ok, you've got two things wrong here. One, Broadsides with S10 railguns are not a thing anymore. Not in the 7e codex, and not in the 6e codex either. Broadside rail weapons are S8 AP1, no armourbane, lance, melta, haywire, D, etc. They're nearly useless against AV14.

Second, the results from single D hits do not spill over across a squadron - all the damage from a single D hit is resolved against a model, not a unit. A D blast can score multiple hits, but where is *that* coming from?

Tau mostly do IG's schtick better, that I'll agree with, but if you routinely play against Tau players who are using their Broadsides with S10 railguns and D blasts, then they're doing it wrong. (I'd go so far as to say cheating.)

I think you're clumping together two concepts...

Stormsurges have a Strength D in the form of the Pulse Blastcannon. Yes, it's at ranges of 10" but it is still a Strength D.

It's not blast or spreading, as mentioned, but it is still not the same as Broadsides with S10 Railguns.

Oh, I know that Stormsurges have D. What I was refuting was the idea of "all damage from the 'D' table spills over across the squadron", which it does not from single D hits. That's where I got blasts from: a single D weapon shot could kill multiple tanks if it were a blast, and therefore hit more than one, but Tau don't have any of those outside of the Ta'unar, or possibly allied psykers fishing for Vortex of Doom.

Whas I should have said, to be more precise, was that if opponents are killing multiple tanks with single non-blast D shots, they're doing it wrong (and if they're firing D blasts, they're doing something *very* squirrelly). (In the interest of forestalling a pedantic exception, yes, it's possible in theory for a D shot to explode a tank and that explosion to glance the last HP off others, but how often does that come up, outside of superheavies with unusually strong explosions?)

fearless blobs goes back to my reference of throwing in a priest in with the blob, as has been my assertion from the first. 150 points in conscripts and 25 point un-HQ that has his war hymns that you can sing and maybe re-roll saves etc, but he gives fearless, has a 4++ and can be in the back of the blob "safe"

 pumaman1 wrote:
fearless blobs goes back to my reference of throwing in a priest in with the blob, as has been my assertion from the first. 150 points in conscripts and 25 point un-HQ that has his war hymns that you can sing and maybe re-roll saves etc, but he gives fearless, has a 4++ and can be in the back of the blob "safe"

Priests do not give Fearless, if you want to get technical about it.
Ministorum Priests have the following special rules:

Independent Character, Zealot.

Zealot does grant the same effects as Fearless, but Fearless on them means you can never Go to Ground or choose to fail a Morale check due to "Our Weapons are Useless"...and since you're rocking a 5+ save for armor who cares about that?

Pulse Rifles negate that armor. Hell, Pulse Carbines negate that armor and Pulse Carbines are a flat 2 shots at 18" range.

War Hymns: A Ministorum Priest can take a Leadership test at the beginning of each Fight sub-phase in which he is locked in combat. If the test is successful, choose one of the following war hymns to immediately take effect.

Additionally, nothing about what you said works. The Priest has to be locked in combat to use his War Hymns.

What if we just lowed it down to 3 or 4 wounds?

 mew28 wrote:
What if we just lowed it down to 3 or 4 wounds?

IMO the purpose of the riptide is to be tanky. Lowering it to 4 wounds could MAYBE work. At 3 wounds, it would be entirely common for the Riptide to do all 3 of those wounds to itself.
Plus for the size of the damn thing, 5 wounds is entirely appropriate. Any less than 4 and its stats would not fit the model.

 mew28 wrote:
What if we just lowed it down to 3 or 4 wounds?

Hell my group has been playing it at 6. Damn misprints...
5 is perfectly reasonable considering its size. Maybe it could cost slightly more, but we shouldn't take wounds from it.

Trasvi wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
What if we just lowed it down to 3 or 4 wounds?

IMO the purpose of the riptide is to be tanky. Lowering it to 4 wounds could MAYBE work. At 3 wounds, it would be entirely common for the Riptide to do all 3 of those wounds to itself.
Plus for the size of the damn thing, 5 wounds is entirely appropriate. Any less than 4 and its stats would not fit the model.

By that same logic it should be classified as a WALKER. Because of its size and the fact that its Tanky..... Or the fact that its a piloted warsuit that looks like a fething Gundam Wing knock off.

If its supposed to be tanky then take away its ridiculous firepower. There you have a tanky unit.

SemperMortis wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
What if we just lowed it down to 3 or 4 wounds?

IMO the purpose of the riptide is to be tanky. Lowering it to 4 wounds could MAYBE work. At 3 wounds, it would be entirely common for the Riptide to do all 3 of those wounds to itself.
Plus for the size of the damn thing, 5 wounds is entirely appropriate. Any less than 4 and its stats would not fit the model.

By that same logic it should be classified as a WALKER. Because of its size and the fact that its Tanky..... Or the fact that its a piloted warsuit that looks like a fething Gundam Wing knock off.

The Tau already have that unit: the Ion Cannon Hammerhead at 125 points. It would be even worse as a walker...

If its supposed to be tanky then take away its ridiculous firepower. There you have a tanky unit.

Where does this notion that the riptide has 'ridiculous' firepower come from? At 200+ points, It has 1 S8 AP2 large blast and 4 S5AP5 shots. That isn't particularly overwhelming. Again, the Ionhead has equivalent firepower for 100 pts less.

"1 S8 AP2 large blast "

That's pretty ridiculous.

Its a good weapon to be sure. But it's not ridiculous.
There are models with S10 AP1 large blasts.
There are dozens of models with S8 AP3 blasts - which, given the dearth of Sv2 squads seen on the table, is functionally the same as AP2 in most situations. A Leman Russ Battle Tank doesn't have ridiculous firepower.
There are models like the Forgefiend or that Leman Russ variant that can put out 3-5 small blast AP2s.

Broadsides or Scatterbikes put out ridiculous firepower. The Riptide has firepower matched by models 100pts less.

Most models with S10 AP1 Large Blasts also cost 3-4x as much as a Riptide does, or have an incredibly short range (in comparison to the Riptide) on a less durable platform.

A Leman Russ is slow and not overly survivable. A Forgefiend is slow and has an even shorter range with about the same (if not slightly better) overall durability as a Leman Russ (because of the innate 5++ and IWND). They are not even in the same league as a Riptide because of this.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Most models with S10 AP1 Large Blasts also cost 3-4x as much as a Riptide does, or have an incredibly short range (in comparison to the Riptide) on a less durable platform.

A Leman Russ is slow and not overly survivable. A Forgefiend is slow and has an even shorter range with about the same (if not slightly better) overall durability as a Leman Russ (because of the innate 5++ and IWND). They are not even in the same league as a Riptide because of this.

I'm commenting solely on the firepower.
S8 AP3 large blasts are quite common and, as far as I know, aren't considered 'ridiculous' by anyone.
The riptide has firepower comparable to a tank such as the Ionhead or Leman Russ.
In terms of firepower per point per model, the riptide doesn't pack that many guns (outside of the stupid riptide wing).

Yes, the Riptide does have higher durability... which you think it would, as its paying about 100pts for durability on top of the Ionhead firepower.

It also has great mobility far beyond the Russ and Forgefiend and more useful than that of the Ionhead (given that it can JSJ).

It seems you missed the point of the comment by Semper you quoted: they were saying that if its role is to be a tanky unit then its firepower is ridiculous (at its current points cost).

100pts on top of the Ionhead is not a fair cost considering it can not only tank hits better on an individual basis with its 2+/5++ (who are we kidding, it's almost always a 3++) and usual 5+++, it also requires 2 more instances of damage to destroy.

It also can't suffer things like Crew Shaken/Stunned, Immobilised, Weapon Destroyed and Explodes! The Ionhead can.

It can also JSJ, which on average allows it to move faster than an Ionhead while still shooting at full effectiveness in a turn AND allows it to jump in and around cover if need be (assuming you're playing on a board with large enough terrain to allow blocking LoS of something as large as a Riptide. Not the most common thing but it does happen).

Trasvi wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Most models with S10 AP1 Large Blasts also cost 3-4x as much as a Riptide does, or have an incredibly short range (in comparison to the Riptide) on a less durable platform.

A Leman Russ is slow and not overly survivable. A Forgefiend is slow and has an even shorter range with about the same (if not slightly better) overall durability as a Leman Russ (because of the innate 5++ and IWND). They are not even in the same league as a Riptide because of this.

I'm commenting solely on the firepower.
S8 AP3 large blasts are quite common and, as far as I know, aren't considered 'ridiculous' by anyone.
The riptide has firepower comparable to a tank such as the Ionhead or Leman Russ.
In terms of firepower per point per model, the riptide doesn't pack that many guns (outside of the stupid riptide wing).

Yes, the Riptide does have higher durability... which you think it would, as its paying about 100pts for durability on top of the Ionhead firepower.

In practice, it should cost even more. The Riptide is more durable than a Warhound titan against the field of heavy weapons in the game. What price for immortality?

Trasvi wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
What if we just lowed it down to 3 or 4 wounds?

IMO the purpose of the riptide is to be tanky. Lowering it to 4 wounds could MAYBE work. At 3 wounds, it would be entirely common for the Riptide to do all 3 of those wounds to itself.
Plus for the size of the damn thing, 5 wounds is entirely appropriate. Any less than 4 and its stats would not fit the model.

By that same logic it should be classified as a WALKER. Because of its size and the fact that its Tanky..... Or the fact that its a piloted warsuit that looks like a fething Gundam Wing knock off.

The Tau already have that unit: the Ion Cannon Hammerhead at 125 points. It would be even worse as a walker...

If its supposed to be tanky then take away its ridiculous firepower. There you have a tanky unit.

Where does this notion that the riptide has 'ridiculous' firepower come from? At 200+ points, It has 1 S8 AP2 large blast and 4 S5AP5 shots. That isn't particularly overwhelming. Again, the Ionhead has equivalent firepower for 100 pts less.

It comes from the stats and abilities of the Tau army.
Take guard for example. They have similar blast weapons yes? But there are some major differences between the two.

1) Cover saves. This is the biggest. Against IG, you can still expect 4+/5+ saves since cover saves are a thing. Not so against the tide, any unit in the army can expect no saves what so ever since marker lights exist. So here we see a 50%-33% increase in damage done per model.

2) Rounds spent firing. The Riptide is incredibly fast and able to move to new locations to gain firing lanes within the same round pretty easily thanks to its movement rules. It can then dance safely back, or in extreme situations, use the nova reactor to move somewhere in a pinch. The riptide, playing from both ends of the table, rarely has nothing to fire at until turns 4/5+, where everything is in CC or dead. It can rely on 1-3 turns of firing pretty easily.
For the Russ, this is only true against larger armies. It's easy to be out of sight or not provide optimal targets for 1-2 turns to a leman russ tank since it's incredibly slow. So, this is roughly a 33% increase in firepower, since it will get 1 more round of good shooting on overage over a russ (compare number of models hit over the course of a game between the two, and tau will have effectively 33% more hits due to mobility).

3) Toughness. The riptide rarely dies before round 3 unless cents are used. This means it nearly always gets to fire for the optimal rounds you need it to, rounds 1-3. Even then, its incredibly hard to catch and kill compared to IG tanks for a variety of reasons. You can count on at least 3 rounds of firepower, and the more you take the more reliable this is.

For LR, they can die easily in rounds 1-3. All it takes is an open spot for a tactical squad or someone to hit the back line, some WG or FD, a crisis suit squad, scat bikes on the rear, melee units, a haywire grenade squad (though this has been nerfed) necron warriors rapid firing enough. They just aren't as tough, it's rare to get 3 rounds of uninterrupted firepower from all the tanks. This is hard to quantify, but its substantial. A cent squad porting in, for example, could easily remove 2 tanks, but won't remove 2 Riptides. And you don't need grav to delete one.

4) Formations. The riptide can be in a formation that allows it to fire twice in rounds 1-2, where it does the most damage. This is huge, a massive increase in firepower that people undervalue since everyone looks at 6 rounds instead of when shooting is really critical.
Imagine 3 Riptides versus 4 LRs.
Round 1, 2 of the LRs are able to draw LoS, the others move. 2 Pie plates land.
3 Riptides move and fire the plates, 3 pie plates land. Everyone gets cover saves since the ML are out of range (I know there are ways to get them there, let's assume though).

Round 2, 4 LR fire, 6 total pie plates.
Riptides fire and unleash their bonus. 6 Pie plates land, making 9 total, 6 of which ignored cover.

At this point, the tide is so far up on attrition its crazy. And this is the time you have before melee units are reaching combat. They have done so much more damage, not only 50% more pie plates, but having 2/3 of them ignore cover.

It would really be nice if the tau had to nova charge the ion accelerator to get ap2.

Agreed. As is, I have a lot of games where I remove 40 models by turn two using 3 tides in a wing, and that's on the low side (That's an average of 4.2-3 models per pie plate, pretty doable).

I've had games where its closer to 60 due to good scat rolls if the enemy doesn't take enough invul saves. Against horde armies it's a lot higher. Removing 1/3-1/2 of a greenskin force by turn two is absurd, and that's not including the other units.

Martel732 wrote:
It would really be nice if the tau had to nova charge the ion accelerator to get ap2.

As we've discussed in one of many other "boo riptide" threads, I agree that it would make sense to switch the ion cannon of the riptide and hammerhead, leaving the "heavy" tank the heavier firepower. Maybe the riptide still keeps its s9ap2 ordinance nova charge, since it needs to nova (1/3rd chance of fail) and gets hot (1/6 chance of fail) and scatter (2/3rd chance of scatter, and on average 4 inches w/o maker help ie, miss target unit). Nova profile is mostly a hail-mary move. But having the tank have native s7 ap2, and the riptide s7 ap3 would be more logical to me. And then it still has a s8ap3 large blast gets hot template.

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It would really be nice if the tau had to nova charge the ion accelerator to get ap2.

As we've discussed in one of many other "boo riptide" threads, I agree that it would make sense to switch the ion cannon of the riptide and hammerhead, leaving the "heavy" tank the heavier firepower. Maybe the riptide still keeps its s9ap2 ordinance nova charge, since it needs to nova (1/3rd chance of fail) and gets hot (1/6 chance of fail) and scatter (2/3rd chance of scatter, and on average 4 inches w/o maker help ie, miss target unit). Nova profile is mostly a hail-mary move. But having the tank have native s7 ap2, and the riptide s7 ap3 would be more logical to me. And then it still has a s8ap3 large blast gets hot template.

Get rid of the large blast for the Riptide unless it NOVAs. Having a large blast without having to NOVA basically means you never have to NOVA for your gun, which plays into the "Riptide basically always has 3++" argument. At max it can have a small blast overcharged shot, still at AP3.

Also cut the range of the Ion Accelerator, so that it will become a serious tactical choice to use NOVA to get the large blast as doing so will mean you cannot move due to it being Ordnance.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It would really be nice if the tau had to nova charge the ion accelerator to get ap2.

As we've discussed in one of many other "boo riptide" threads, I agree that it would make sense to switch the ion cannon of the riptide and hammerhead, leaving the "heavy" tank the heavier firepower. Maybe the riptide still keeps its s9ap2 ordinance nova charge, since it needs to nova (1/3rd chance of fail) and gets hot (1/6 chance of fail) and scatter (2/3rd chance of scatter, and on average 4 inches w/o maker help ie, miss target unit). Nova profile is mostly a hail-mary move. But having the tank have native s7 ap2, and the riptide s7 ap3 would be more logical to me. And then it still has a s8ap3 large blast gets hot template.

Get rid of the large blast for the Riptide unless it NOVAs. Having a large blast without having to NOVA basically means you never have to NOVA for your gun, which plays into the "Riptide basically always has 3++" argument. At max it can have a small blast overcharged shot, still at AP3.

Also cut the range of the Ion Accelerator, so that it will become a serious tactical choice to use NOVA to get the large blast as doing so will mean you cannot move due to it being Ordnance.

No, as per above, there are already many points of failure to getting the shot, and several times it can wound itself (blah blah saves, don't care, shot still doesn't go off.) And if its switched to hammer head's gun, its shorter range than current. If nova wasn't ordinance, but primary weapon maybe, but definitely not shorter, weaker, smaller, all at the same time. That is called overkill.

If you get rid of the formation I'd be fine with that. As it is, I fail 1 maybe 2 nova charges all game with 3 riptides.

The ordinance rule sucks, and the fewer things that have it the better.

Trasvi wrote:

There are dozens of models with S8 AP3 blasts - which, given the dearth of Sv2 squads seen on the table, is functionally the same as AP2 in most situations. A Leman Russ Battle Tank doesn't have ridiculous firepower.

A Leman Russ is also far slower and no where near as durable as a Riptide, is vulnerable to CC, has less 'wounds', will suffer major penalties if the enemy rolls above the needed 'too wound' number, has no saves of any kind unless you have invested in camo gear (15 points for a 6+ cover save, woo) and/or hidden it within cover. It also gets even easier to 'wound' if you flank it.

How on earth can you possibly compare a weak, overpriced, unit like the Leman Russ to a monster like the Riptide?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

There are dozens of models with S8 AP3 blasts - which, given the dearth of Sv2 squads seen on the table, is functionally the same as AP2 in most situations. A Leman Russ Battle Tank doesn't have ridiculous firepower.

A Leman Russ is also far slower and no where near as durable as a Riptide, is vulnerable to CC, has less 'wounds', will suffer major penalties if the enemy rolls above the needed 'too wound' number, has no saves of any kind unless you have invested in camo gear (15 points for a 6+ cover save, woo) and/or hidden it within cover. It also gets even easier to 'wound' if you flank it.

How on earth can you possibly compare a weak, overpriced, unit like the Leman Russ to a monster like the Riptide?

He's comparing the gun.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

There are dozens of models with S8 AP3 blasts - which, given the dearth of Sv2 squads seen on the table, is functionally the same as AP2 in most situations. A Leman Russ Battle Tank doesn't have ridiculous firepower.

A Leman Russ is also far slower and no where near as durable as a Riptide, is vulnerable to CC, has less 'wounds', will suffer major penalties if the enemy rolls above the needed 'too wound' number, has no saves of any kind unless you have invested in camo gear (15 points for a 6+ cover save, woo) and/or hidden it within cover. It also gets even easier to 'wound' if you flank it.

How on earth can you possibly compare a weak, overpriced, unit like the Leman Russ to a monster like the Riptide?

He's comparing the gun.

But that is not a fair comparison. To get a true reflection of the capabilities of the gun you must also compare the platform it is mounted on. A death ray weapon on a weak and immobile mounting is far less of a threat than a geberic cannon mounted on a tough and fast vehicle.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

There are dozens of models with S8 AP3 blasts - which, given the dearth of Sv2 squads seen on the table, is functionally the same as AP2 in most situations. A Leman Russ Battle Tank doesn't have ridiculous firepower.

A Leman Russ is also far slower and no where near as durable as a Riptide, is vulnerable to CC, has less 'wounds', will suffer major penalties if the enemy rolls above the needed 'too wound' number, has no saves of any kind unless you have invested in camo gear (15 points for a 6+ cover save, woo) and/or hidden it within cover. It also gets even easier to 'wound' if you flank it.

How on earth can you possibly compare a weak, overpriced, unit like the Leman Russ to a monster like the Riptide?

I agree than comparing a Leman Russ to most anything is a bad comparison. Battle cannon being ordinance, and no way to negate snap firing is a horrible rule set (removing lumbering behemoth being 1 of the primary factors), but that said, few people bring stock LRBT, because it is functionally 1 gun for 180 points, and is vulnerable if it ever moves it's rear off the board edge. The are more likely to bring Paskishers (rending and preferred enemy) or plasmacutioners (though statistically would kill themselves off with gets hot every game) because they are "less" points (clearly pask is more, but orders and exponentially more potent depending on variant) and more viable thanks to scoot-and-shoot with all weapons.

Akiasura wrote:
Agreed. As is, I have a lot of games where I remove 40 models by turn two using 3 tides in a wing, and that's on the low side (That's an average of 4.2-3 models per pie plate, pretty doable).

I've had games where its closer to 60 due to good scat rolls if the enemy doesn't take enough invul saves. Against horde armies it's a lot higher. Removing 1/3-1/2 of a greenskin force by turn two is absurd, and that's not including the other units.

If you're facing against a Tau army with footslogging Orks, they're all going to die before combat no matter what the Tau player uses. I'm sorry, but footslogging infantry in general isn't going to win games.

Yes, the riptide wing is an abomination. It takes a unit that was already good, imposes a 'restriction' that any half-decent Tau player will have already fulfilled, and gives it extremely powerful special rules. The formation should not exist.

Martel, are you trying to say that Ordnance is a good rule to have? It's a huge impediment for relatively little benefit.

Usually for "balance" a unit needs some "rock/paper/scissors" element to it.
Vehicles without strong back armour die like dogs to an infantry assault with krack grenades.
Dreadnaughts die to melta weapons due to having armor.
High toughness units die to poison.

This unit is WAY too good at all things offensively and defensively for little points.
Cost to capability ratio a player would be foolish not to want to play this unit.
So this still falls on GW not creating the right balance.
We seem to have the ongoing issue with platforms that can do "relentless" or better and able to fire heavy weapons on the move.

I could see by adding a certain loadout positive and negative aspects can be applied.

Artillery piece needs to stabilize prior to shooting (ordinance weapons hold back tanks a fair bit in this regard) and less defensive capabilities due to added strain to powerplant would be good.
Moderate firepower on the move, better when holding still.

For a linebreaker role I would see more shooting (at closer range) and less blast template available with a better movement and defense.
I would look at this like a cavalry "shock and awe" type of unit meant to chew through infantry.

Trasvi wrote:


Martel, are you trying to say that Ordnance is a good rule to have? It's a huge impediment for relatively little benefit.

That depends on the model which has it. I would very much like Ordnance on the Hammerhead Railguns solid shot as the roll 2D6 and choose highest improves the chance of actually penning armour, which is what the railgun needs help with, without making it basically guaranteed which is what armourbane would do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:
Artillery piece needs to stabilize prior to shooting (ordinance weapons hold back tanks a fair bit in this regard)

Ordnance doesn't hold tanks back that much at all, actually. Vehicles can move and still fire ordnance weapons as long as they can fire it without it being a snap shot as the Ordnance blanket "no firing after moving" rule only affects non-vehicle models. Most ordnance weapons are blast weapons and so couldn't fire snap shots anyway. Vehicles are also free to fire other weapons after firing an Ordnance weapon.

Trasvi wrote:
Its a good weapon to be sure. But it's not ridiculous.
There are models with S10 AP1 large blasts.
There are dozens of models with S8 AP3 blasts - which, given the dearth of Sv2 squads seen on the table, is functionally the same as AP2 in most situations. A Leman Russ Battle Tank doesn't have ridiculous firepower.
There are models like the Forgefiend or that Leman Russ variant that can put out 3-5 small blast AP2s.

Broadsides or Scatterbikes put out ridiculous firepower. The Riptide has firepower matched by models 100pts less.

So when faced with an argument that shows the Riptide is better across the board you choose to focus on a single point where the Riptide is equal to or slightly worse then another tau unit. I love the logic my friend, but seriously stop please.

The only models I can think of that are common with a S10 AP1 Large blast are Vindicators and they have a range of 24inches. They are a vehicle so they are slow and easy to destroy.

Compare a riptide TO ALMOST ANY OTHER UNIT! and it will be better point for point by a large margin.

Riptides benefit from all the rules of a MC without any of the drawbacks (as few as there are) and benefit from all the tools and gear that a vehicle can take, but without that pesky Hull Point problem, nor the vehicle damage chart nor the inability to get a cover save with most vehicles.

Lets do a little test, I'll take 10 Hammerheads and you can take a riptide wing. Who wins? 10 Hammerheads put out 10 Large blast templates, lets just say all 10 hit, none Overcharged because it wouldn't benefit them that much. 10 at S7 Vs T6 = 6-7 wounds = 1 failed 2+ armor save, with a 1/3rd change to beat that because of 5+ FNP. FIRE THE MISSILES! 40 TL Ignores cover ignores LOS SMS shots. I think because they are drone controlled they are BS2? I don't play tau so I don't know, So if it BS2 then its about 13 his the first batch and 9 the 2nd so 22 hits. At S5 thats about 7 wounds, Against a 2+ Save and 5+ FNP thats again about 1 wound, (possibly zero) So in 1 full round of shooting the Hammerheads have done 2 wounds. YAY Hammerheads.

Riptides turn they do their wonderful little feth off Nova Charge and 1 fails, lets say it wounds and the riptide fails his own save because he is an idiot, so 3 wounds on the Tides. Those 2 nova templates will strike 1-2 hammerheads each so lets say 3 total hits at S9 AP2. Against AV13 So 50/50 to glance/pen. So lets go with 1 Pen total. Completely take away the chance of a glance. But because those Hammerheads didn't want to get blown up all 3 jinked. Successfully removing 3 units from realistically hurting the tides next turn. lets say the jink failed and it goes through and furthers stuns the crew and removes 1 HP from the Hammerhead. FIRE ZE MISSILES 12 TL BS4 Missiles that hit the rear armor because reasons equals about 10-11 hits. At S5 against AV 10 = 2-3 HPs stripped So BOOM one Enemy vehicle is destroyed.

So for the loss of ZERO dakka the Riptides have removed 1 enemy vehicle, forced 2-3 to Jink and have suffered 3 wounds. So a full 1/3rd of the enemy is either dead or useless the next turn......And from their it only gets worse because as the Riptides close the distance they will eventually get into CC Believe it or not where they get another phase of free butt kicking on the hammerheads.

Point being that in vacuum (dangerous I know) 3 riptides, not even in a wing formation, can ROFLSTOMP 10 Hammerheads. 10 hammerheads cost 1,250pts 3 Riptides cost 660pts (with stim injectors)

So what I am trying to say is that if you want the Riptide to be tanky REDUCE ITS BLOODY WEAPONS, if you want the riptide to be shooty, REDUCE ITS BLOODY ENDURANCE.
At the moment the riptides (which you love pointing out are 100pts more expensive then a hammerhead) are more then 3times as effective as Hammerheads.

This will be true against almost EVERY vehicle in the game including some of the smaller Titans. Hell I would get a riptide over a Stompa in a fight.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Trasvi wrote:


Martel, are you trying to say that Ordnance is a good rule to have? It's a huge impediment for relatively little benefit.

That depends on the model which has it. I would very much like Ordnance on the Hammerhead Railguns solid shot as the roll 2D6 and choose highest improves the chance of actually penning armour, which is what the railgun needs help with, without making it basically guaranteed which is what armourbane would do.

In some cases its ok. For the Riptide, who needs to Nova charge and then Gets Hot to fire the ordnance weapon... it never gets used, for good reason.

Trasvi wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Trasvi wrote:


Martel, are you trying to say that Ordnance is a good rule to have? It's a huge impediment for relatively little benefit.

That depends on the model which has it. I would very much like Ordnance on the Hammerhead Railguns solid shot as the roll 2D6 and choose highest improves the chance of actually penning armour, which is what the railgun needs help with, without making it basically guaranteed which is what armourbane would do.

In some cases its ok. For the Riptide, who needs to Nova charge and then Gets Hot to fire the ordnance weapon... it never gets used, for good reason.

Right, but the main reason is that you can get basically the same thing without having to NOVA charge, which means you are free to go for the 3++ or 4D6 thrust. Which is a problem.

Hence why you should remove the non-NOVA large blast profile from the Ion Accelerator.

I mean, the HBC needs to nova charge and then suffers from Gets Hot in order to be powerful (and HBCtides get way less flak because of such restrictions), so why shouldn't the Ion Accelerator? Simply getting rid of the non-NOVA large blast profile fixes, or at least reduces, a lot of the problems with the riptide.

Constant 3++? Not if it wants to drop a large blast.
Intercept with a large blast? Not if it wants a 3++ on the opponents turn.
JSJ with a large blast? Nope, only shoot-jump, so it had to get into position the turn before, possibly leaving it more vulnerable and allowing more chances for the opponent to get their models out of LOS or into cover.

SemperMortis wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
Its a good weapon to be sure. But it's not ridiculous.
There are models with S10 AP1 large blasts.
There are dozens of models with S8 AP3 blasts - which, given the dearth of Sv2 squads seen on the table, is functionally the same as AP2 in most situations. A Leman Russ Battle Tank doesn't have ridiculous firepower.
There are models like the Forgefiend or that Leman Russ variant that can put out 3-5 small blast AP2s.

Broadsides or Scatterbikes put out ridiculous firepower. The Riptide has firepower matched by models 100pts less.

So when faced with an argument that shows the Riptide is better across the board you choose to focus on a single point where the Riptide is equal to or slightly worse then another tau unit. I love the logic my friend, but seriously stop please.

The only models I can think of that are common with a S10 AP1 Large blast are Vindicators and they have a range of 24inches. They are a vehicle so they are slow and easy to destroy.

Compare a riptide TO ALMOST ANY OTHER UNIT! and it will be better point for point by a large margin.

Riptides benefit from all the rules of a MC without any of the drawbacks (as few as there are) and benefit from all the tools and gear that a vehicle can take, but without that pesky Hull Point problem, nor the vehicle damage chart nor the inability to get a cover save with most vehicles.

Lets do a little test, I'll take 10 Hammerheads and you can take a riptide wing. Who wins? 10 Hammerheads put out 10 Large blast templates, lets just say all 10 hit, none Overcharged because it wouldn't benefit them that much. 10 at S7 Vs T6 = 6-7 wounds = 1 failed 2+ armor save, with a 1/3rd change to beat that because of 5+ FNP. FIRE THE MISSILES! 40 TL Ignores cover ignores LOS SMS shots. I think because they are drone controlled they are BS2? I don't play tau so I don't know, So if it BS2 then its about 13 his the first batch and 9 the 2nd so 22 hits. At S5 thats about 7 wounds, Against a 2+ Save and 5+ FNP thats again about 1 wound, (possibly zero) So in 1 full round of shooting the Hammerheads have done 2 wounds. YAY Hammerheads.

Riptides turn they do their wonderful little feth off Nova Charge and 1 fails, lets say it wounds and the riptide fails his own save because he is an idiot, so 3 wounds on the Tides. Those 2 nova templates will strike 1-2 hammerheads each so lets say 3 total hits at S9 AP2. Against AV13 So 50/50 to glance/pen. So lets go with 1 Pen total. Completely take away the chance of a glance. But because those Hammerheads didn't want to get blown up all 3 jinked. Successfully removing 3 units from realistically hurting the tides next turn. lets say the jink failed and it goes through and furthers stuns the crew and removes 1 HP from the Hammerhead. FIRE ZE MISSILES 12 TL BS4 Missiles that hit the rear armor because reasons equals about 10-11 hits. At S5 against AV 10 = 2-3 HPs stripped So BOOM one Enemy vehicle is destroyed.

So for the loss of ZERO dakka the Riptides have removed 1 enemy vehicle, forced 2-3 to Jink and have suffered 3 wounds. So a full 1/3rd of the enemy is either dead or useless the next turn......And from their it only gets worse because as the Riptides close the distance they will eventually get into CC Believe it or not where they get another phase of free butt kicking on the hammerheads.

Point being that in vacuum (dangerous I know) 3 riptides, not even in a wing formation, can ROFLSTOMP 10 Hammerheads. 10 hammerheads cost 1,250pts 3 Riptides cost 660pts (with stim injectors)

So what I am trying to say is that if you want the Riptide to be tanky REDUCE ITS BLOODY WEAPONS, if you want the riptide to be shooty, REDUCE ITS BLOODY ENDURANCE.
At the moment the riptides (which you love pointing out are 100pts more expensive then a hammerhead) are more then 3times as effective as Hammerheads.

This will be true against almost EVERY vehicle in the game including some of the smaller Titans. Hell I would get a riptide over a Stompa in a fight.

Trasvi wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Agreed. As is, I have a lot of games where I remove 40 models by turn two using 3 tides in a wing, and that's on the low side (That's an average of 4.2-3 models per pie plate, pretty doable).

I've had games where its closer to 60 due to good scat rolls if the enemy doesn't take enough invul saves. Against horde armies it's a lot higher. Removing 1/3-1/2 of a greenskin force by turn two is absurd, and that's not including the other units.

If you're facing against a Tau army with footslogging Orks, they're all going to die before combat no matter what the Tau player uses. I'm sorry, but footslogging infantry in general isn't going to win games.

At no point did I say footslogging, you'll notice. The 40 models is against standard marine or eldar armies, 60 is against more horde armies, but it really doesn't matter what it is. It's not hard to clip 3-4, I've managed 5 before with lucky scatters, bikes a turn with it, after all, and dropping in makes you very vulnerable since you tend to be close together. Perhaps I should have said wounds. The only army that can match that kind of firepower is eldar with scat bikes, and its not against all units (against marines, for example, they don't perform nearly as well, although against orks they do a lot better than tides).

Outside of invul saves, which are typically 5+ outside of a deathstar or TWC (and the riptide doesn't do great against TWC to be fair), it really doesn't matter the unit type. It puts down 4-6 wounds per turn depending on the unit and how close they are, and kills pretty much everything it touches. With 3 of them, that's easily 12-18 wounds per turn, over the course of 3 turns, or 36-54 wounds minus invul saves. With the riptide wing, this can easily become ~48-72 wounds before most units reach the tau lines (even fast units take till turn 2, many take till turn 3). With a High strength, low ap, and removing cover from the lights, generally the model type doesn't factor in overly much, so I didn't specify. And this is 1/3 of the army roughly, this totally discounts the rest of the army firing as you get closer, and the rest of the tau guns aren't what I would call laughable. Look at model counts for most of the competitive armies and you'll find this is usually 2/3 of the force, if not more (count wounds, not models). I've had games where, turn 2, I have crippled every scat bike squad on the table with the tides and go after the WG. I'm talking 25+ Scatbikes ->3-4 scatbikes. And this is scat bikes, a unit that normally survives everything by either out ranging it, jinking, or just being T4 with a 3+ save and relatively cheap for what it does.

I'm not saying there are no counters. Wraiths, for example, are extremely fast and aren't phased by the firepower the tide brings. TWC are in a similar boat. Some daemon units as well. Teleporting grav cents can eliminate 1-2 per round depending on nova and what powers they have.

The tau have the rest of the army to use to mop those up, and sadly that's what the game becomes. The Riptide deletes most of the army outside of a few strong units and those units hopefully carry the game.

Still nice strawman

Please stop using the Riptide Wing in your examples.. basically everybody in this thread agrees that it is too strong, but that's a completely different discussion.

3 riptides in a CAD versus 3 riptides in a wing is a completely different power level. Without the wing, their output is mediocre and the nova charge fails often. I stand by my opinion that there are many many other things that would have to be nerfed before the riptide if the game should be brought down to orc/IG level.

Ushtarador wrote:
Please stop using the Riptide Wing in your examples.. basically everybody in this thread agrees that it is too strong, but that's a completely different discussion.

3 riptides in a CAD versus 3 riptides in a wing is a completely different power level. Without the wing, their output is mediocre and the nova charge fails often. I stand by my opinion that there are many many other things that would have to be nerfed before the riptide if the game should be brought down to orc/IG level.

Making the blast AP3 without NOVA or giving the Riptide 3+ armor does not knock it down anywhere NEAR Ork/IG level.

Martel732 wrote:

Ushtarador wrote:
Please stop using the Riptide Wing in your examples.. basically everybody in this thread agrees that it is too strong, but that's a completely different discussion.

3 riptides in a CAD versus 3 riptides in a wing is a completely different power level. Without the wing, their output is mediocre and the nova charge fails often. I stand by my opinion that there are many many other things that would have to be nerfed before the riptide if the game should be brought down to orc/IG level.

Making the blast AP3 without NOVA or giving the Riptide 3+ armor does not knock it down anywhere NEAR Ork/IG level.

Right, and I GREATLY appreciate the use of "OR" in your statement. Sadly, after our general but not-final consensus, new blood came to the thread and decided its revenge time. Because something else is bad, that they decided should be BETTER than the riptide, increase riptide to 500 points, reduce armor to 4+, make gun 24" s3 ap6 gets hot, make it LOW, etc...

Actually balancing discussion has been dead for pages, its just "Boo riptide," and extremely vitriolic comments both ways. This thread was a good start. Let's look at the purpose for the riptide, especially in light of the 7th ed update. What it was for in 6th has been marginalized in 7th with ghost keels and stormsurges. Being a jet-pack unit being a 3+ has merit, pattern, and sense, and either alone or with other MINOR adjustments is worth play testing, not "Boo riptide, no, also 500 points!"

Ushtarador wrote:
Please stop using the Riptide Wing in your examples.. basically everybody in this thread agrees that it is too strong, but that's a completely different discussion.

3 riptides in a CAD versus 3 riptides in a wing is a completely different power level. Without the wing, their output is mediocre and the nova charge fails often. I stand by my opinion that there are many many other things that would have to be nerfed before the riptide if the game should be brought down to orc/IG level.

Actually, if you read further up, people were saying the Riptide wing doesn't cause a large impact. Just because its not relevant to you, doesn't make it not relevant at all.
And I make sure to include both with and without the wing when discussing strengths and weaknesses. It's hardly ever taken without the wing, its become a core part of its identity though, so I probably shouldn't bother.

To state it without the formation is like saying cents are fine because they can't teleport on their own. Or Wraiths are fine because without the formation and tomb spyder they aren't THAT tough. While all of these are technically true, in practice it doesn't matter since you only see the unit taken in one particular style. The wing is such a no brainer, like the other options, that there is zero incentive not to take it, outside of not owning the models.

I remember before the wing, fans of the Tide would state you can't include it with Nova, or without the FnP roll, or various other parts of its loadout to make it seem fail. It's all hogwash of course, as is discussing it without the formation.



And yes, there are many things out there that are worse. The Wraiths with decurion is up there, the porting cents is bad, scatbikes are pretty horrible, as is the WK.
Nearly everyone agrees on that however. For some reason, a large group don't want to admit the Riptide is OP, so the discussion circles around them. It's hard to have a 6 page thread when the conversation goes like this;
"I think scatbikes are OP"
"Yeah"
"Oh yeah of course I try not to use them"
"Who doesn't think that?"
"What was GW thinking? X, Y, Z are the worst things about them!"
"Agree, X and Y seem really bad imo"
And end thread.

Compared to this one where we had someone compare the tide to the LR, and well...yeah. It's another mutilator thread.

Forcing a NOVA to get AP 2 on the blast or giving it 3+ armor makes it more reasonable in two very different ways. I'd probably boost the cost on the stim injector a bit as well in either case. Stacked saves are very powerful in this game.

At least scatbikes die.

Martel732 wrote:
Forcing a NOVA to get AP 2 on the blast or giving it 3+ armor makes it more reasonable in two very different ways. I'd probably boost the cost on the stim injector a bit as well in either case. Stacked saves are very powerful in this game.

At least scatbikes die.

3+ isn't a bad idea, I actually like the idea. And back on page.. 10? I stated I agree stims shouldn't be able to be taken. Many will disagree with me, because the nova-wound sucks, but I really don't think they belong. So much so that I literally never take them into any game I play because I am not TFG. I think that increasing the vulnerability roughly 9 times (except to grav) is and ok place to start.

Just maybe let me take earth cast pilot array again? It's 1 per army, a signature system made with the riptide in mind, but not allowed to be taken by any riptide save the named HQ which can only be taken with "The Eight" formation, per faq... garbage.

Let them have the stims, but make them PAY.

Ushtarador wrote:
Please stop using the Riptide Wing in your examples.. basically everybody in this thread agrees that it is too strong, but that's a completely different discussion.

3 riptides in a CAD versus 3 riptides in a wing is a completely different power level. Without the wing, their output is mediocre and the nova charge fails often. I stand by my opinion that there are many many other things that would have to be nerfed before the riptide if the game should be brought down to orc/IG level.

If your referring to my example, I didn't use the wing, if I had it would have been a lot more one sided after turn 1

Judging from what I've read in this thread...Riptides are pretty good

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Judging from what I've read in this thread...Riptides are pretty good

*looks with pity*

He believes in anything he reads in internet...

To state it without the formation is like saying cents are fine because they can't teleport on their own. Or Wraiths are fine because without the formation and tomb spyder they aren't THAT tough. While all of these are technically true, in practice it doesn't matter since you only see the unit taken in one particular style. The wing is such a no brainer, like the other options, that there is zero incentive not to take it, outside of not owning the models.

But it's not the same thing. The riptide wing is so stupidly good because it removes basically ALL the weaknesses of a normal riptide! Just like teleporting/cover ignoring centurions, or skyhammer grav devastators, it makes it a completely different unit. Same with wraiths that are supposed to die to massed fire due to the 3+ save, but get boosted to unreasonable levels of survival with the harvest. The solution to riptide wing should focus on the formation, not the unit the formation consists of. Else you just completely invalidate the unit outside of the formation and make the formation mandatory.

Making the blast AP3 without NOVA

This one I can definitely get behind. Someone already voiced the same thought I had when I first saw the 6th edition codex - the gun on the Riptide and the Hammerhead should definitely be switched, would make a lot more sense.


Anecdotally, I almost never see a riptide wing in our LGS outside of tournament practice, it's just not the power level we field for this kind of game. I had a very enjoyable game with my BA vs Tau last Sunday, with lots of firewarriors and Terminators, it's definitely possible

Seems to me that we need the following.
1: Lower it to 4 wounds
2: The Ion Accelerator becomes AP3 but using a Nova Charge on it makes both profiles AP2.
3: Remove the Riptide Wing formation from the game and pretend it never existed.
4: Make the Hammerhead's Ion AP2

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Judging from what I've read in this thread...Riptides are pretty good

*looks with pity*

He believes in anything he reads in internet...

Riptides are obscenely good, especially given how cheap they are.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Judging from what I've read in this thread...Riptides are pretty good

*looks with pity*

He believes in anything he reads in internet...

Riptides are obscenely good, especially given how cheap they are.

Reread my posts M.o.o.! You know I agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vankraken wrote:
Seems to me that we need the following.
1: Lower it to 4 wounds
2: The Ion Accelerator becomes AP3 but using a Nova Charge on it makes both profiles AP2.
3: Remove the Riptide Wing formation from the game and pretend it never existed.
4: Make the Hammerhead's Ion AP2

I would say more:

1. No FnP
2. Amor 3+
3. What Riptide wing? Also, we always been at war with Eastasia.
4. Suggested changes to nova
5. Keep cost and wounds as is for now

Vehicles like hammereads and Vanquishers need help, but I would go with some shooting options, even one, taken from the Vindicare Assassin (like the d3 wounds/HP).

I'd say replace the "no FNP" with reduced range (36"?) on the Ion Accelerator. That way, the Riptide can no longer camp in corners dropping nova pie plates, and has to get in range to be taken down by volume of fire.
Can we also have a Heavy Burst Cannon buff? I'd say Heavy 15 on the Nova mode, with Gets Hot! removed is reasonable. In fact, drop the Gets Hot! on the nova mode of the IA. It is nonsensical to take 2 seperate tests to fire 1 gun.

Everything else is reasonable.
1. 3+ armor
2. Reduced range on IA
3. Removed Overcharge mode on IA
4. Purge Riptide Wing from existence

 Verviedi wrote:
I'd say replace the "no FNP" with reduced range (36"?) on the Ion Accelerator. That way, the Riptide can no longer camp in corners dropping nova pie plates, and has to get in range to be taken down by volume of fire.

Or remove the ability for FNP to be taken with no downsides at all. They're Stimulant Injectors. If you want to use them to FNP something, it should make you Snap Shoot.

Can we also have a Heavy Burst Cannon buff? I'd say Heavy 15 on the Nova mode, with Gets Hot! removed is reasonable. In fact, drop the Gets Hot! on the nova mode of the IA. It is nonsensical to take 2 seperate tests to fire 1 gun.

Yeah...no. If you wanted, say, a ROF boost with no concurrent stat boost? Probably acceptable without "Gets Hot!". But that's not what you get by doing the Nova mode.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Can we also have a Heavy Burst Cannon buff? I'd say Heavy 15 on the Nova mode, with Gets Hot! removed is reasonable. In fact, drop the Gets Hot! on the nova mode of the IA. It is nonsensical to take 2 seperate tests to fire 1 gun.


Yeah...no. If you wanted, say, a ROF boost with no concurrent stat boost? Probably acceptable without "Gets Hot!". But that's not what you get by doing the Nova mode.

Can you elaborate what you mean just a little bit here?

The for the HBC, the base rate is heavy 8, there is not overcharge, the nova charge (so 1/3rd chance of fail) and gets hot (so 1/6th chance of failed shot and/or wound) to get heavy 12 rending, same base S and AP. So increasing the number of shots is a big part of why you do it.

though statistically unlikely, you can kill yourself with your own shooting attack, and the principal of that is annoying.

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Verviedi wrote:
Can we also have a Heavy Burst Cannon buff? I'd say Heavy 15 on the Nova mode, with Gets Hot! removed is reasonable. In fact, drop the Gets Hot! on the nova mode of the IA. It is nonsensical to take 2 seperate tests to fire 1 gun.

Yeah...no. If you wanted, say, a ROF boost with no concurrent stat boost? Probably acceptable without "Gets Hot!". But that's not what you get by doing the Nova mode.

Can you elaborate what you mean just a little bit here?

That if you wanted to simply go to a higher ROF? That'd be acceptable without the "Gets Hot" penalty. But that's not what you do.

The for the HBC, the base rate is heavy 8, there is not overcharge,

Nobody said anything about Overcharge. Not sure why you're even bringing it up beyond trying to throw something in that is completely irrelevant to the statement made.

the nova charge (so 1/3rd chance of fail) and gets hot (so 1/6th chance of failed shot and/or wound) to get heavy 12 rending, same base S and AP. though statistically unlikely, you can kill yourself with your own shooting attack. So increasing the number of shots is a big part of why you do it.

You have a 2/3rd chance to successfully Nova Charge and a Heavy 12 S6 AP4 with 36" and Rending at BS3 base with the ability to be boosted up by Markerlights.

"Gets Hot" is a joke penalty for the HBC, even with 12 shots at BS3.

though statistically unlikely, you can kill yourself with your own shooting attack, and the principal of that is annoying.

Yeah...I have no sympathy for you whatsoever. The Leman Russ Executioner is a tank built around a massive Plasma Cannon, which fluffwise, has always had it mentioned that it has an advanced cooling system because of that fact.

It can kill itself with "Gets Hot" rolls too. But it doesn't get to ever make saves because it's a vehicle.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Verviedi wrote:
Can we also have a Heavy Burst Cannon buff? I'd say Heavy 15 on the Nova mode, with Gets Hot! removed is reasonable. In fact, drop the Gets Hot! on the nova mode of the IA. It is nonsensical to take 2 seperate tests to fire 1 gun.

Yeah...no. If you wanted, say, a ROF boost with no concurrent stat boost? Probably acceptable without "Gets Hot!". But that's not what you get by doing the Nova mode.

Can you elaborate what you mean just a little bit here?

That if you wanted to simply go to a higher ROF? That'd be acceptable without the "Gets Hot" penalty. But that's not what you do.

The for the HBC, the base rate is heavy 8, there is not overcharge,

Nobody said anything about Overcharge. Not sure why you're even bringing it up beyond trying to throw something in that is completely irrelevant to the statement made.

the nova charge (so 1/3rd chance of fail) and gets hot (so 1/6th chance of failed shot and/or wound) to get heavy 12 rending, same base S and AP. though statistically unlikely, you can kill yourself with your own shooting attack. So increasing the number of shots is a big part of why you do it.

You have a 2/3rd chance to successfully Nova Charge and a Heavy 12 S6 AP4 with 36" and Rending at BS3 base with the ability to be boosted up by Markerlights.

"Gets Hot" is a joke penalty for the HBC, even with 12 shots at BS3.

though statistically unlikely, you can kill yourself with your own shooting attack, and the principal of that is annoying.

Yeah...I have no sympathy for you whatsoever. The Leman Russ Executioner is a tank built around a massive Plasma Cannon, which fluffwise, has always had it mentioned that it has an advanced cooling system because of that fact.

It can kill itself with "Gets Hot" rolls too. But it doesn't get to ever make saves because it's a vehicle.

Please stop breaking down my statements line by line, it makes it crazy long and annoying to read through.. The reference to no overcharge is for other people reading unfamiliar with the non-Ion Accelerator.

And yes marker lights are a thing, but 1s still get hot.

And I agree, the LR-Executioner should not be able to gets hot as its a dedicated plasma tossing platform. That I've seen them blow themselves up in 1 shooting phase is preposterous. But that's a different thread. No multi-wound/HP unit should be able to kill itself with its own weapon. Single wound models like pathfinders or devastators i can see, because the weapon "melted down" to being useless at best, and maybe killed the unit.

you don't need to state a lack of sympathy, you've shown that plenty so far. which is why i struggle to take anything you say with any value, because its not trying to understand where Tau players are coming from, you just want to destroy a unit that people paid quite a lot of money for, spent a great deal of time modeling and painting. It can become worse, but you don't make suggestions that make it remotely acceptable. It can still be a good unit when its done, worse than before, but still good.

I'm also interested as to how you would think that stimulant injectors would make something less accurate in shooting, somehow making the sophisticated targeting equipment of the Riptide cease to function.
Imperial Guard being a poorly written codex that is poorly written does not excuse a vendetta against every book that was written better than it.

 pumaman1 wrote:

Please stop breaking down my statements line by line, it makes it crazy long and annoying to read through.. The reference to no overcharge is for other people reading unfamiliar with the non-Ion Accelerator.

Yeah, no. I won't cease breaking down statements line by line. It really isn't any longer than a simple quotation. I do this for a reason: It makes it easier for me to reply to individual arguments and it lets me have a frame of reference to consult when someone like you tries to make arguments out of context.

And yes marker lights are a thing, but 1s still get hot.

1s still get hot, but what does reaching BS 6 or higher allow you to do?

Reroll missed To Hit rolls.

And I agree, the LR-Executioner should not be able to gets hot as its a dedicated plasma tossing platform. That I've seen them blow themselves up in 1 shooting phase is preposterous. But that's a different thread. No multi-wound/HP unit should be able to kill itself with its own weapon. Single wound models like pathfinders or devastators i can see, because the weapon "melted down" to being useless at best, and maybe killed the unit.

If you're so concerned about it "melting down", then don't use the primary weapon when Nova Charging?

It does have secondary weapons after all.

In any regards, if people want the HBC to be viable or lose "Gets Hot" when Nova'd? I'd be cool with that. Provided it loses Rending and doesn't get a crazy amount of shots.

you don't need to state a lack of sympathy, you've shown that plenty so far. which is why i struggle to take anything you say with any value, because its not trying to understand where Tau players are coming from, you just want to destroy a unit that people paid quite a lot of money for, spent a great deal of time modeling and painting.

And I have a hard time taking anything you say with value when you spout crap like "Fearless Guard blobs with Hymns" being an effective counter to Tau shooting.

It can become worse, but you don't make suggestions that make it remotely acceptable. It can still be a good unit when its done, worse than before, but still good.

I don't care if Tau players think it's "remotely acceptable". I don't care if you feel like your model isn't worth the money you paid for it. I have an Armored Company, nobody consulted me when they nerfed tanks into the ground.

Riptides are too powerful. End of story. They need a drastic nerfing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Verviedi wrote:
I'm also interested as to how you would think that stimulant injectors would make something less accurate in shooting, somehow making the sophisticated targeting equipment of the Riptide cease to function.

Stimulant Injectors aren't hooked into the Riptide's targeting equipment, are they?

There's still a pilot in the Riptide controlling the Riptide. It doesn't matter how awesome the targeting equipment is if the pilot's effectively having a seizure from having a chemical cocktail jacked into his system and pressing the wrong buttons.

Imperial Guard being a poorly written codex that is poorly written does not excuse a vendetta against every book that was written better than it.

Nor does Tau being a poorly written codex justify them never nerfing units within the book.

Riptides are way too good for what they are. The same thing goes for other things in other books, but we're not talking about them in this thread. Maybe if Tau players would stop getting so defensive about any proposed changes that aren't buffs for the Riptide we could have productive conversations.

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Verviedi wrote:
Can we also have a Heavy Burst Cannon buff? I'd say Heavy 15 on the Nova mode, with Gets Hot! removed is reasonable. In fact, drop the Gets Hot! on the nova mode of the IA. It is nonsensical to take 2 seperate tests to fire 1 gun.

Yeah...no. If you wanted, say, a ROF boost with no concurrent stat boost? Probably acceptable without "Gets Hot!". But that's not what you get by doing the Nova mode.

Can you elaborate what you mean just a little bit here?

That if you wanted to simply go to a higher ROF? That'd be acceptable without the "Gets Hot" penalty. But that's not what you do.

The for the HBC, the base rate is heavy 8, there is not overcharge,

Nobody said anything about Overcharge. Not sure why you're even bringing it up beyond trying to throw something in that is completely irrelevant to the statement made.

the nova charge (so 1/3rd chance of fail) and gets hot (so 1/6th chance of failed shot and/or wound) to get heavy 12 rending, same base S and AP. though statistically unlikely, you can kill yourself with your own shooting attack. So increasing the number of shots is a big part of why you do it.

You have a 2/3rd chance to successfully Nova Charge and a Heavy 12 S6 AP4 with 36" and Rending at BS3 base with the ability to be boosted up by Markerlights.

"Gets Hot" is a joke penalty for the HBC, even with 12 shots at BS3.

though statistically unlikely, you can kill yourself with your own shooting attack, and the principal of that is annoying.

Yeah...I have no sympathy for you whatsoever. The Leman Russ Executioner is a tank built around a massive Plasma Cannon, which fluffwise, has always had it mentioned that it has an advanced cooling system because of that fact.

It can kill itself with "Gets Hot" rolls too. But it doesn't get to ever make saves because it's a vehicle.

Please stop breaking down my statements line by line, it makes it crazy long and annoying to read through.. The reference to no overcharge is for other people reading unfamiliar with the non-Ion Accelerator.

And yes marker lights are a thing, but 1s still get hot.

And I agree, the LR-Executioner should not be able to gets hot as its a dedicated plasma tossing platform. That I've seen them blow themselves up in 1 shooting phase is preposterous. But that's a different thread. No multi-wound/HP unit should be able to kill itself with its own weapon. Single wound models like pathfinders or devastators i can see, because the weapon "melted down" to being useless at best, and maybe killed the unit.

you don't need to state a lack of sympathy, you've shown that plenty so far. which is why i struggle to take anything you say with any value, because its not trying to understand where Tau players are coming from, you just want to destroy a unit that people paid quite a lot of money for, spent a great deal of time modeling and painting. It can become worse, but you don't make suggestions that make it remotely acceptable. It can still be a good unit when its done, worse than before, but still good.

Plasma russ main gun does not get hot. Do not give it plasma sponsons - hull laz cannon and done. Give it sponson heavy bolters or MM if you must give it something.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

Please stop breaking down my statements line by line, it makes it crazy long and annoying to read through.. The reference to no overcharge is for other people reading unfamiliar with the non-Ion Accelerator.

Yeah, no. I won't cease breaking down statements line by line. It really isn't any longer than a simple quotation. I do this for a reason: It makes it easier for me to reply to individual arguments and it lets me have a frame of reference to consult when someone like you tries to make arguments out of context.

And yes marker lights are a thing, but 1s still get hot.

1s still get hot, but what does reaching BS 6 or higher allow you to do?

Reroll missed To Hit rolls.

And I agree, the LR-Executioner should not be able to gets hot as its a dedicated plasma tossing platform. That I've seen them blow themselves up in 1 shooting phase is preposterous. But that's a different thread. No multi-wound/HP unit should be able to kill itself with its own weapon. Single wound models like pathfinders or devastators i can see, because the weapon "melted down" to being useless at best, and maybe killed the unit.

If you're so concerned about it "melting down", then don't use the primary weapon when Nova Charging?

It does have secondary weapons after all.

In any regards, if people want the HBC to be viable or lose "Gets Hot" when Nova'd? I'd be cool with that. Provided it loses Rending and doesn't get a crazy amount of shots.

you don't need to state a lack of sympathy, you've shown that plenty so far. which is why i struggle to take anything you say with any value, because its not trying to understand where Tau players are coming from, you just want to destroy a unit that people paid quite a lot of money for, spent a great deal of time modeling and painting.

And I have a hard time taking anything you say with value when you spout crap like "Fearless Guard blobs with Hymns" being an effective counter to Tau shooting.

It can become worse, but you don't make suggestions that make it remotely acceptable. It can still be a good unit when its done, worse than before, but still good.

I don't care if Tau players think it's "remotely acceptable". I don't care if you feel like your model isn't worth the money you paid for it. I have an Armored Company, nobody consulted me when they nerfed tanks into the ground.

Riptides are too powerful. End of story. They need a drastic nerfing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Verviedi wrote:
I'm also interested as to how you would think that stimulant injectors would make something less accurate in shooting, somehow making the sophisticated targeting equipment of the Riptide cease to function.

Stimulant Injectors aren't hooked into the Riptide's targeting equipment, are they?

There's still a pilot in the Riptide controlling the Riptide. It doesn't matter how awesome the targeting equipment is if the pilot's effectively having a seizure from having a chemical cocktail jacked into his system and pressing the wrong buttons.

Imperial Guard being a poorly written codex that is poorly written does not excuse a vendetta against every book that was written better than it.

Nor does Tau being a poorly written codex justify them never nerfing units within the book.

Riptides are way too good for what they are. The same thing goes for other things in other books, but we're not talking about them in this thread. Maybe if Tau players would stop getting so defensive about any proposed changes that aren't buffs for the Riptide we could have productive conversations.

*sigh*.. i guess we are still in infinite markerlight land...

Individual troops wield a s7/8 weapon with gets hot has insufficient cooling systems to be "man portable" and reliable. MC's and tanks should.

As stated pages ago, a conscript blob with 50 guardsmen is 150 poitns, and a 25 point non-hq HQ priest gives zealot, which in part automatically passes LD tests life fear, morale etc.. so functionally fearless if not with exactly that USR. Battle hymns are only when locked in combat with LD check, you are correct, I was wrong on that point.

No one is arguing vehicles should be worse, we agree they should be better, that horse is beyond dead and beaten. MOVE ON. and armor 14 in particular is not pointless as say 10 through 12.

Yes, Riptides are too good for what they are, hence the thread, hence the discussion. If you want to take a modern news network approach of complaining loudly, but not offering sincere suggestions that both parties agree is progress, then this is not that thread. You might not get all you want, I already am not getting all I want, but if its all or nothing for you, then you aren't discussing you are demanding. As this is a general discussion, not general demands, you can make a new proposed rules thread titled "Time to finally kill the riptide."

 pumaman1 wrote:

*sigh*.. i guess we are still in infinite markerlight land...

You're BS3 to start with. Are you really trying to suggest that it is hard to get 3 points of BS, minimum, to reach the reroll threshold?
Being part of a Coordinated Firepower via the Hunter Cadre can grant you +1 BS, being part of a Fire Team of 3 Riptides can grant you another +1 BS. That's +2/3 minimum for the reroll threshold--and in the case of Coordinated Firepower, granting shared Markerlights for maximum effectiveness.

Individual troops wield a s7/8 weapon with gets hot has insufficient cooling systems to be "man portable" and reliable. MC's and tanks should

Now, I don't think it strictly true that "Gets Hot" should never make an appearance on vehicles or MCs. I do think in the case of the HBC and EPE? That "Gets Hot" shouldn't be there.

As stated pages ago, a conscript blob with 50 guardsmen is 150 poitns, and a 25 point non-hq HQ priest gives zealot, which in part automatically passes LD tests life fear, morale etc.. so functionally fearless if not with exactly that USR. Battle hymns are only when locked in combat with LD check, you are correct, I was wrong on that point.

A Conscript Blob with 50 Guardsmen is more than 150 points in actuality. You have to take a Guard Platoon, which mandates 2 50 man Guard Squads and a Platoon Command Squad as well to even take a Conscript Platoon.

No one is arguing vehicles should be worse, we agree they should be better, that horse is beyond dead and beaten. MOVE ON. and armor 14 in particular is not pointless as say 10 through 12.

Unfortunately for you, it is entirely relevant to the discussion at hand when people like yourself think any actual change to the Riptide is going to make them useless or whatever nonsense.

Yes, Riptides are too good for what they are, hence the thread, hence the discussion. If you want to take a modern news network approach of complaining loudly, but not offering sincere suggestions that both parties agree is progress, then this is not that thread. You might not get all you want, I already am not getting all I want, but if its all or nothing for you, then you aren't discussing you are demanding. As this is a general discussion, not general demands, you can make a new proposed rules thread titled "Time to finally kill the riptide."

This is a discussion, despite what you seem to be thinking. You just get the more aggressive replies because your posts have been nonsense.

Yes, because there are more than 1 target i intend to shoot at in a turn, my marker lights are spread out to various targets. And if I go 2nd, I should have few to none left alive, as they are on fragile platforms.

You need to bring 3 riptides in a single unit to get the fire team rule, where they are not automatically a riptide wing. that does mean 9 riptides could be a maxed out riptide wing.

And no, you take 1 platoon command squad and 2 10 man squads of basic infantry, you don't need to take max number of max squads, just the minimum to be a platoon. If you are running the Emperors Shield (huh funny, sheild) Infantry Company, then yes you must max the squads, but not in a CAD.
Those other squads are off taking points and scoring, not bubble wrapping your expensive vehicles. If you don't take infantry as AM, you are gonna have a bad time.

And aggression is not a substitution for human decency or argument. The Fox News method of debate, he who shouts loudest wins, is not productive.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Yes, because there are more than 1 target i intend to shoot at in a turn, my marker lights are spread out to various targets. And if I go 2nd, I should have few to none left alive, as they are on fragile platforms.

They can be on as fragile platforms as you want to pretend, Markerlights have a 36" range and do not cost as much as Tau players like to pretend they do.

Additionally, there is no basic weapon available which outranges a Markerlight and assuming you're not doing huge missteps like putting your Pathfinders or Marker Drones out in the open or something of that nature? You'll still have Markerlights available, and as mentioned, being part of a Hunter Cadre detachment means that you get the most effective usage out of those Markerlight Counters.

You need to bring 3 riptides in a single unit to get the fire team rule, where they are not automatically a riptide wing. that does mean 9 riptides could be a maxed out riptide wing.

"Being part of a Fire Team of 3 Riptides" should have pretty obviously clarified that is the case.

And no, you take 1 platoon command squad and 2 10 man squads of basic infantry, you don't need to take max number of max squads, just the minimum to be a platoon.

It should have been obvious that I meant "50 point Guard Squads", but just so we're clear? That's what was meant to be posted, as there is no way to have "2 50 man Guard Squads" in a single Infantry Platoon.

If you are running the Emperors Shield (huh funny, shield) Infantry Company, then yes you must max the squads, but not in a CAD.
Those other squads are off taking points and scoring, not bubble wrapping your expensive vehicles. If you don't take infantry as AM, you are gonna have a bad time.

And if you want to pretend that AM infantry are giving you such a hard time as Tau, you're going to get called on your silliness.

And aggression is not a substitution for human decency or argument. The Fox News method of debate, he who shouts loudest wins, is not productive.

Aggressive replies != lack of coherent argument or human decency. You're more than welcome to assume that this is me 'shouting loudest', but quite frankly?

You've demonstrated a blatantly obvious lack of knowledge about things that you're trying to counterpoint in defending your precious Riptide. You're a great example of why many people dislike Tau not strictly for the armies but for the players utilizing them.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Markerlights have a 36" range and do not cost as much as Tau players like to pretend they do.

Okay wise guy? how many points do we pay for our markerlights?

 Kanluwen wrote:
He made it pretty clear on his edit.

The edit was to add what is below

Marker Drones, BS2, 12-14 points each (meaning 36-42 points for each marker token)
Pathfinder Markerlight, BS3, 11 points (meaning 22 points per)
Skyray Networked Markerlight, 2 per platform, BS4, 115 pts (meaning ~77 points per)
Firewarrior Shas'ui, 65 points for a minimum squad, 1 shot at BS3. (meaning 90 points per token)

more?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Plasma russ main gun does not get hot. Do not give it plasma sponsons - hull laz cannon and done. Give it sponson heavy bolters or MM if you must give it something.

Adolf Hitler: The Executioner main cannon does not get hot, give it sponson heavy bolters or MM everything will be alright.
Hans Krebs: Mein Fuhrer... Steiner...
Alfred Jodl: Steiner nerfed the Leman Russ Executioner. It made marine players butthurt so he gave the Executioner Plasma Cannon "gets hot". People even glued those plasma sponson. Is kinda sad.
Adolf Hitler: *Long rant on sponsons*

We don't need to pretend they are fragile, they are as fragile as guardsmen, who have heavy laser designators, but 11 points per, or as fragile as marine scouts, but literally 1/2 the BS at BS2 at 12-14 points per. You can ignore them at your own peril, but that doesn't question my ability or competency.

And I've demonstrated on multiple occasions that I am willing to come to the table, reducing armor, removing FNP, switching the ion weapon with the Hammerhead to compel bringing other weaker platforms that bring heavy firepower. I've discussed played methods that actively counter riptides/other non-riptide threats you've brought up, not even theory crafting but played and repeated methods. That makes me a terrible person to discuss with, to play against. That I encourage an opponent to utilize tools at their disposal, or target priority. You can blast away at the riptide all game, if you leave me with markerlight sources, everything else is going to stay effective.

Compromise man, compromise. You're an adult. Meet me 1/2 way.

 carldooley wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Markerlights have a 36" range and do not cost as much as Tau players like to pretend they do.

Okay wise guy? how many points do we pay for our markerlights?
Marker Drones, BS2, 12-14 points each (meaning 36-42 points for each marker token)

14 points to add additional Gun Drones to a Drone Squadron. How many points is it to turn them into Marker Drones?
Free.

Pathfinder Markerlight, BS3, 11 points (meaning 22 points per)

Per what? 22 points per usage of Scouring? 22 points per 2 points of Ballistic Skill via Pinpoint? 22 points per 2 Seeker Missile launches?

Pathfinders are 11 points to add more to a Pathfinder Team(which is 44 points for 4 with the option to add 6 more at 11 points each for a grand total of 110 points before adding in Drones) and come with Markerlights as standard. The only time they do not have Markerlights is when you pay points to take Ion Rifles or Rail Rifles.

Skyray Networked Markerlight, 2 per platform, BS4, 115 pts (meaning ~77 points per)

Again, ~77 points per what? Scour? 2 points of BS? 2 Seeker Missiles?

The Networked Markerlights cost you nothing.

Firewarrior Shas'ui, 65 points for a minimum squad, 1 shot at BS3. (meaning 90 points per token)
more?

So you meant per token, eh?

Let's put it like this then:
You have 3 options where you pay nothing for a BS weapon in large quantities that does not require you to roll To Wound. Said BS weapon instead simply makes it so that follow-on attacks gain benefits.

What actual downside is there for you missing your shots with Markerlights? Your stuff does not lose its base accuracy, nor does it lose its base efficacy. It simply goes back to its standard form.

I would give the whole "Markerlights have a downside to them!" argument more credibility if there were an actual penalty like they tacked into Guard Orders, where one character failing spectacularly equates to the whole damn Orders system breaking.

The downside to missing shots with markerlights is the same downside to missing a shot with any weapon. The intended effect does not happen.

Or are you also going to argue that psychic powers are unfair because if you fail to manifest a power which grants twin-linked then the guns you were trying to twin-link can still shoot at their standard ability?
A psyker doesn't even need LOS to the target that the buffed unit is shooting at. Markerlights require that the target unit is in LOS of the marking unit and then, unless all you are firing is SMS or Seeker missiles, the unit which is actually doing the damaging shooting.

He made it pretty clear on the first entry that he was calculating the points per marker token.

Kanluwen, I sincerely hope that you are trolling.
How many points is a Librarian? By your argument, it should cost nothing, yes? At that point, why don't you just sigmarize 40k? then everyone can bring what they want.

 pumaman1 wrote:


We don't need to pretend they are fragile, they are as fragile as guardsmen, who have heavy laser designators, but 11 points per, or as fragile as marine scouts, but literally 1/2 the BS at BS2 at 12-14 points per. You can ignore them at your own peril, but that doesn't question my ability or competency.

BS2 with the ability to fire and move, thanks to being Jet Pack Infantry.
And 11 points with Scout and the ability to fire as part of a supporting Overwatch.

And I've demonstrated on multiple occasions that I am willing to come to the table, reducing armor,

Which would have been acceptable prior to the introduction of Grav...but now?

Nope. Too many Tau players piss and moan about Grav making such short work of their Riptides to the point of saying that the Riptide "needs to have a 3+ save in order to survive" that this argument holds no water anymore.

removing FNP,

The FNP in and of itself is not the issue. Pretending that you offering to "remove FNP" is some kind of olive branch is silly, as has been evidenced by the multiple instances where you've just ignored the point brought up.
FNP by itself is not the issue. The issue is the ridiculously low price that something like the Riptide pays for it. The issue is that a Riptide has a naturally high durability which needs to be addressed, regardless of the state of it having a FNP or not.

switching the ion weapon with the Hammerhead to compel bringing other weaker platforms that bring heavy firepower.

Which isn't a bad idea, and I've simply not commented on it as I don't feel that simply moving something from one platform to another is an amenable option. If the IA is a problem on the Riptide, it can potentially be a problem on the Hammerhead as well.

I've discussed played methods that actively counter riptides/other non-riptide threats you've brought up, not even theory crafting but played and repeated methods. That makes me a terrible person to discuss with, to play against.

But y'see, that's the rub. Nothing in my statement was theory crafting. Even discounting the Priest thing, I pointed out that there is a much higher threshold for other armies to remotely negate a model like the Riptide.

That I encourage an opponent to utilize tools at their disposal, or target priority. You can blast away at the riptide all game, if you leave me with markerlight sources, everything else is going to stay effective.

And this is one of the biggest complaints that has been brought up time and time again with the Riptide. Tau players refer to it as their "Distraction Carnifex". The Distraction Carnifex was a thing because it simply looked big and scary, its efficacy was in that it held people's attention and didn't do much else.

The Riptide isn't a "Distraction Carnifex". It's a legitimate threat, priced at "Distraction Carnifex" price points.

Compromise man, compromise. You're an adult. Meet me 1/2 way.

Compromise is admitting that the Riptide needs to be torn down and built back up from there.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Markerlights have a 36" range and do not cost as much as Tau players like to pretend they do.

Okay wise guy? how many points do we pay for our markerlights?
Marker Drones, BS2, 12-14 points each (meaning 36-42 points for each marker token)

14 points to add additional Gun Drones to a Drone Squadron. How many points is it to turn them into Marker Drones?
Free.
And the loss of the gun drone. NOT FREE

Pathfinder Markerlight, BS3, 11 points (meaning 22 points per)

Per what? 22 points per usage of Scouring? 22 points per 2 points of Ballistic Skill via Pinpoint? 22 points per 2 Seeker Missile launches?
What is the Seeker missile on? you are aware that if we use the seeker missile off of a platform, then said platform CANNOT target anything else?
Pathfinders are 11 points to add more to a Pathfinder Team(which is 44 points for 4 with the option to add 6 more at 11 points each for a grand total of 110 points before adding in Drones) and come with Markerlights as standard. The only time they do not have Markerlights is when you pay points to take Ion Rifles or Rail Rifles.

Skyray Networked Markerlight, 2 per platform, BS4, 115 pts (meaning ~77 points per)

Again, ~77 points per what? Scour? 2 points of BS? 2 Seeker Missiles?

The Networked Markerlights cost you nothing.
Except the cost of the platform that they come on.

Firewarrior Shas'ui, 65 points for a minimum squad, 1 shot at BS3. (meaning 90 points per token)
more?

So you meant per token, eh?

Let's put it like this then:
You have 3 options where you pay nothing for a BS weapon in large quantities that does not require you to roll To Wound. Said BS weapon instead simply makes it so that follow-on attacks gain benefits.

What actual downside is there for you missing your shots with Markerlights? Your stuff does not lose its base accuracy, nor does it lose its base efficacy. It simply goes back to its standard form.

I would give the whole "Markerlights have a downside to them!" argument more credibility if there were an actual penalty like they tacked into Guard Orders, where one character failing spectacularly equates to the whole damn Orders system breaking.

the downside to taking markerlights is the same as taking psyker support in other armies. They are support pieces! by taking them, you are taking fewer actual you know GUNS, but the ones that you do take hit harder!

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The downside to missing shots with markerlights is the same downside to missing a shot with any weapon. The intended effect does not happen.

Or are you also going to argue that psychic powers are unfair because if you fail to manifest a power which grants twin-linked then the guns you were trying to twin-link can still shoot at their standard ability?

He made it pretty clear on the first entry that he was calculating the points per marker token.

He made it pretty clear on his edit.


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 carldooley wrote:
Kanluwen, I sincerely hope that you are trolling.
How many points is a Librarian? By your argument, it should cost nothing, yes? At that point, why don't you just sigmarize 40k? then everyone can bring what they want.

How many points is it to upgrade a Librarian's efficacy?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The downside to missing shots with markerlights is the same downside to missing a shot with any weapon. The intended effect does not happen.

Or are you also going to argue that psychic powers are unfair because if you fail to manifest a power which grants twin-linked then the guns you were trying to twin-link can still shoot at their standard ability?

He made it pretty clear on the first entry that he was calculating the points per marker token.

He made it pretty clear on his edit.

No, even on the post you quoted, that first line said 36-42 points per markerlight token.

The rest of the entries followed that basis, just cutting off markerlight token from the end because it was plainly obvious what was intended by simply reading what was written.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
Kanluwen, I sincerely hope that you are trolling.
How many points is a Librarian? By your argument, it should cost nothing, yes? At that point, why don't you just sigmarize 40k? then everyone can bring what they want.

How many points is it to upgrade a Librarian's efficacy?

Free if they cast a buff on themselves.

 carldooley wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Markerlights have a 36" range and do not cost as much as Tau players like to pretend they do.

Okay wise guy? how many points do we pay for our markerlights?
Marker Drones, BS2, 12-14 points each (meaning 36-42 points for each marker token)

14 points to add additional Gun Drones to a Drone Squadron. How many points is it to turn them into Marker Drones?
Free.
And the loss of the gun drone. NOT FREE

Pathfinder Markerlight, BS3, 11 points (meaning 22 points per)

Per what? 22 points per usage of Scouring? 22 points per 2 points of Ballistic Skill via Pinpoint? 22 points per 2 Seeker Missile launches?
What is the Seeker missile on? you are aware that if we use the seeker missile off of a platform, then said platform CANNOT target anything else?
Pathfinders are 11 points to add more to a Pathfinder Team(which is 44 points for 4 with the option to add 6 more at 11 points each for a grand total of 110 points before adding in Drones) and come with Markerlights as standard. The only time they do not have Markerlights is when you pay points to take Ion Rifles or Rail Rifles.

Skyray Networked Markerlight, 2 per platform, BS4, 115 pts (meaning ~77 points per)

Again, ~77 points per what? Scour? 2 points of BS? 2 Seeker Missiles?

The Networked Markerlights cost you nothing.
Except the cost of the platform that they come on.

Firewarrior Shas'ui, 65 points for a minimum squad, 1 shot at BS3. (meaning 90 points per token)
more?

So you meant per token, eh?

Let's put it like this then:
You have 3 options where you pay nothing for a BS weapon in large quantities that does not require you to roll To Wound. Said BS weapon instead simply makes it so that follow-on attacks gain benefits.

What actual downside is there for you missing your shots with Markerlights? Your stuff does not lose its base accuracy, nor does it lose its base efficacy. It simply goes back to its standard form.

I would give the whole "Markerlights have a downside to them!" argument more credibility if there were an actual penalty like they tacked into Guard Orders, where one character failing spectacularly equates to the whole damn Orders system breaking.

the downside to taking markerlights is the same as taking psyker support in other armies. They are support pieces! by taking them, you are taking fewer actual you know GUNS, but the ones that you do take hit harder!

Except Psyker support has an actual downside in the form of the Perils of the Warp table, now doesn't it?

Once again, what is the actual downside to using a Markerlight to attempt to put a Markerlight Counter on a target?

Your Markerlights don't remove your Cover if you fail to hit a target. They don't cause Seeker Missile hits to strike the unit firing the Markerlights. They don't cause anything beyond no Markerlight Counter from being placed.

If you could not grasp that simple fact, then you really did not understand the point I was making.

 Kanluwen wrote:
How many points is it to upgrade a Librarian's efficacy?

Beats me. I don't have a current MEQ codex. But I seem to recall a ML is 25 pts. AND CHOOSING NOT TO ROLL ON ANOTHER TABLE TO GET PRESCIENCE!

 Kanluwen wrote:

Except Psyker support has an actual downside in the form of the Perils of the Warp table, now doesn't it?

Once again, what is the actual downside to using a Markerlight to attempt to put a Markerlight Counter on a target?

Your Markerlights don't remove your Cover if you fail to hit a target. They don't cause Seeker Missile hits to strike the unit firing the Markerlights. They don't cause anything beyond no Markerlight Counter from being placed.

If you could not grasp that simple fact, then you really did not understand the point I was making.

The downside to using a markerlight is that the unit shooting the markerlight cannot do any physical damage from its own attack. Which seems to be a downside in my opinion.

Missing with a bolter shot doesn't cause your predator to shoot your marines in the face. A commander failing a FRFSRF order doesn't mean that the Guard squad shoots him.

 carldooley wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
How many points is it to upgrade a Librarian's efficacy?

Beats me. I don't have a current MEQ codex. But I seem to recall a ML is 25 pts.

A Mastery Level is 25 points, that is correct.

But that, again, is my point. To make a Psyker better costs a meaningful amount of points. Changing a 14 point Gun Drone(which yes, is BS2, but has the capability to be BS3 through a wildly common formation that grants an obscene number of special rules to ALL Drones on the field not just those within the formation) to a Markerlight Drone should have a points cost.

Or there should be a points cost associated with the ability of a unit to actually benefit from Markerlights or a better qualifier as to what weapons can benefit from what Markerlight abilities, etc.

AND CHOOSING NOT TO ROLL ON ANOTHER TABLE TO GET PRESCIENCE!

Which is a whole different can of worms(I'm personally not a fan of the ability to dip into multiple masteries at once; it would be a cool trait for a character but shouldn't be the standard) and something I thoroughly suspect will be altered dramatically come the next edition.

I mean there's definitely a reason we got "Adeptus Astartes Psychic Powers", "Dark Angels Psychic Powers", etc along with "Traitor Astartes Psychic Powers" now during what is supposed to be the purported development cycle/stealth playtesting stage of 8th.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Once again, what is the actual downside to using a Markerlight to attempt to put a Markerlight Counter on a target?

Your Markerlights don't remove your Cover if you fail to hit a target. They don't cause Seeker Missile hits to strike the unit firing the Markerlights. They don't cause anything beyond no Markerlight Counter from being placed.

If you could not grasp that simple fact, then you really did not understand the point I was making.

We are choosing to shoot at you with a unit that we had to pay for, that will cause zero wounds to you. In all but one case (the Networked Markerlight on the Skyray) the unit that shoots at you CANNOT benefit from its own markerlights, and please note that in the formations, Skyrays are not listed as being eligible for CFP for a reason. Tau players have to play a balancing act. If our markerlights are too efficient, if we put a hundred markerlights on a unit, and then wipe the unit, how many of those markerlights do you think would be wasted?

It comes down to my argument of Strategy versus Tactics. Strategy is what you bring with you to the field. Other armies have psykers or debuffing units. Tau have markerlights, and each markerlight that we bring to the field means one less gun. What is the downside of using a markerlight? IT DOESN'T HURT A DAMN THING! an opportunity cost that costs us from bringing more guns. We can absolutely leave them at home, we can mitigate their loss by TLing the weapons on our crisis suits. but do you think for a minute that if we did so, we could reliably expect our opponents to leave their support models at home too? Their CCS, their psykers, their Chapter Masters and Captains? Their Synapse Creatures, their ruins and defensive emplacements?

Oh and tactics, well, tactics are what you decide to do with your forces once they are on the field.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
(which yes, is BS2, but has the capability to be BS3 through a wildly common formation that grants an obscene number of special rules to ALL Drones on the field not just those within the formation) to a Markerlight Drone should have a points cost.

Sorry to say that whoever told you this was cheating. The only thing that gets spread around is the BS buff. The rest of it is restricted to the formation.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Except Psyker support has an actual downside in the form of the Perils of the Warp table, now doesn't it?

Once again, what is the actual downside to using a Markerlight to attempt to put a Markerlight Counter on a target?

Your Markerlights don't remove your Cover if you fail to hit a target. They don't cause Seeker Missile hits to strike the unit firing the Markerlights. They don't cause anything beyond no Markerlight Counter from being placed.

If you could not grasp that simple fact, then you really did not understand the point I was making.

The downside to using a markerlight is that the unit shooting the markerlight cannot do any physical damage from its own attack. Which seems to be a downside in my opinion.

Missing with a bolter shot doesn't cause your predator to shoot your marines in the face.

A bolter shot also doesn't somehow magically make it so that the Predator is shooting clean through walls, despite not changing the stat values of the weapons being fired by said Predator.

A commander failing a FRFSRF order doesn't mean that the Guard squad shoots him.

Sure, but on a roll of Double 6? That Commander failing to issue "FRFSRF" means no other Orders can be issued, by any officer during your turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carldooley wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Once again, what is the actual downside to using a Markerlight to attempt to put a Markerlight Counter on a target?

Your Markerlights don't remove your Cover if you fail to hit a target. They don't cause Seeker Missile hits to strike the unit firing the Markerlights. They don't cause anything beyond no Markerlight Counter from being placed.

If you could not grasp that simple fact, then you really did not understand the point I was making.

We are choosing to shoot at you with a unit that we had to pay for, that will cause zero wounds to you. In all but one case (the Networked Markerlight on the Skyray) the unit that shoots at you CANNOT benefit from its own markerlights, and please note that in the formations, Skyrays are not listed as being eligible for CFP for a reason. Tau players have to play a balancing act. If our markerlights are too efficient, if we put a hundred markerlights on a unit, and then wipe the unit, how many of those markerlights do you think would be wasted?

It comes down to my argument of Strategy versus Tactics. Strategy is what you bring with you to the field. Other armies have psykers or debuffing units. Tau have markerlights, and each markerlight that we bring to the field means one less gun. What is the downside of using a markerlight? IT DOESN'T HURT A DAMN THING! an opportunity cost that costs us from bringing more guns. We can absolutely leave them at home, we can mitigate their loss by TLing the weapons on our crisis suits. but do you think for a minute that if we did so, we could reliably expect our opponents to leave their support models at home too? Their CCS, their psykers, their Chapter Masters and Captains? Their Synapse Creatures, their ruins and defensive emplacements?

Oh and tactics, well, tactics are what you decide to do with your forces once they are on the field.

Once again though, each of those things you've mentioned (barring the Captains, which have no real buff/unique trait like Orbital Strikes that they give)? They have a downside.

Synapse Creatures have a range associated with their usage. Outside of it, Tyranids are subject to Instinctive Behavior.
Command Squads have a range associated with their ability to issue Orders. And if they roll double 6s? They can potentially lock the entire army out of being able to issue Orders.


I cannot and will not buy the argument that there is a serious downside to the inability of a Pathfinder with their 18" Assault 2 weapon to fire. Not when the range on a Markerlight is double the range of their damaging weapon.

The Gun Drone is kinda/sorta a different circumstance as yes they give up offensive capabilities to become a dedicated Markerlight platform...but they also have a benefit that the Pathfinders do not have(at least without using a Tidewall Shieldline) in the form of being Relentless.

 Kanluwen wrote:
(which yes, is BS2, but has the capability to be BS3 through a wildly common formation that grants an obscene number of special rules to ALL Drones on the field not just those within the formation) to a Markerlight Drone should have a points cost.

Sorry to say that whoever told you this was cheating. The only thing that gets spread around is the BS buff. The rest of it is restricted to the formation.

That one was my bad actually, not someone cheating.

I meant to have the "obscene number of special rules" to be after the initial part regarding the BS3. I could edit it, but I won't since we're addressing that here.

The point however remains the same. There is, effectively, no downside to Markerlight Drones as part of a Drone Network.

 Kanluwen wrote:
A bolter shot also doesn't somehow magically make it so that the Predator is shooting clean through walls, despite not changing the stat values of the weapons being fired by said Predator.

A bolter shot, by itself can damage something. A Markerlight cannot. If you don't understand the distinction, that is too bad for you. I'm done arguing the point.

 carldooley wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
A bolter shot also doesn't somehow magically make it so that the Predator is shooting clean through walls, despite not changing the stat values of the weapons being fired by said Predator.

A bolter shot, by itself can damage something. A Markerlight cannot. If you don't understand the distinction, that is too bad for you. I'm done arguing the point.

A bolter shot, by itself, can damage something. However it has to make two checks in order to do so. You have to roll to hit and then roll to wound.

A Markerlight has to hit. There's no saving against Markerlights. There's no way to avoid a Markerlight, no way to negate it. Be done arguing the point all you want, it still does not change the fact that Markerlights need a dramatic overhaul...much like everything else in the Tau book.

I'm sick of the Tau as much as anyone, but this has gone off the rails a bit.

 carldooley wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
A bolter shot also doesn't somehow magically make it so that the Predator is shooting clean through walls, despite not changing the stat values of the weapons being fired by said Predator.

A bolter shot, by itself can damage something. A Markerlight cannot. If you don't understand the distinction, that is too bad for you. I'm done arguing the point.

I'm sorry, what? This is blatantly false. A markerlight can increase damage output on a unit by 16%, raise a missile to SD, or launch a S8 AP3 missile at BS5. A stage of separation between damage and weapon firing does not make a weapon "do no damage".

Hell, if you can't use the elements in your army to take the fragile markerlight platforms out first, I don't know how you ever win games. If you put any thought into writing your list, you will have elements in your army that are able to remove squishy support units by turn 2 at latest.

Scouts are one of the most fragile units in the game. They also can't move and shoot, and are only BS3. Marker drones are only BS2, a squad of 4 will give you a single hit most times. Sure you can add a buffcommander to up their BS, but that's a lot of points again. Skyrays are amazing, but they are still tanks, and I thought we agreed that vehicles suck anyway. Also, every squad of marker units could be another broadside or 2, which could just kill stuff directly.

The tactical difficulty with markerlights is 1) you need a good target, 2) you need enough other units actually benefitting from the effects and 3) you must be careful not to overkill. If I put all my MLs on 5 marines they will probably be really dead, but it is not point efficient. Spreading markerlights around is unreliable because of the low BS of the platforms, often putting too many on some units and not enough on others.
If I use the hunter cadre to make more efficient use of my marker lights, overkilling is even more dangerous, and you end up wasting a large amount of wounds when not being careful.

Maybe you should try playing Tau yourself sometime, you'll see that the army is very hard to play efficiently (if you don't just field a maxed riptide wing), it's always a balancing effort, and small mistakes quickly result in getting wiped in CC.

 carldooley wrote:


We are choosing to shoot at you with a unit that we had to pay for, that will cause zero wounds to you. In all but one case (the Networked Markerlight on the Skyray) the unit that shoots at you CANNOT benefit from its own markerlights, and please note that in the formations, Skyrays are not listed as being eligible for CFP for a reason. Tau players have to play a balancing act. If our markerlights are too efficient, if we put a hundred markerlights on a unit, and then wipe the unit, how many of those markerlights do you think would be wasted?

Well, let us look at it this way: The Markerlight in itself is not directly dealing damage, but the unit firing it would rarely be doing any anyway as they can only output direct damage to 18". However the unit is indirectly putting out damage as that units markerlights are vastly improving the shooting of every other unit within the Tau army. Missiles become S D, other missiles can now fire without LoS, guns can ignore cover and now shoot at BS 5, etc. Markerlights are heinously good.
So, what are the 'downsides'? A single unit that would never be in range of anything anyway will not shoot its out-of-range guns. Boo hoo.
If you ask me, a roll of a '1' to hit should discount all Markerlights in the unit for the turn.

It comes down to my argument of Strategy versus Tactics.

It does, provided you are playing Marines, Tau or Eldar.

Strategy is what you bring with you to the field.

Okay, so by your logic aries like BA and IG have less 'strategy' than Tau.

Other armies have psykers or debuffing units.

Which can go horribly wrong if they fail to cast, losing powers, killing themselves or worse.

Tau have markerlights, and each markerlight that we bring to the field means one less gun.

One less R 18" gun? Boo hoo.

What is the downside of using a markerlight? IT DOESN'T HURT A DAMN THING!

Well, actually it technically does.

We can absolutely leave them at home, we can mitigate their loss by TLing the weapons on our crisis suits

But then you couldnt fire your shots at BS 5 Ignore Cover.

Their CCS,

Waitwhat?! How the hell is a CCS that gives two orders a turn with a maximum range of 12", which require the receiver to pass an LD check, which cannot be stacked, which give few benefits and can be lost on a single roll of a double 6 be compared to a 36" ranged stacking multitool.

their psykers,

Psykers who can blow themselves up?

their Chapter Masters?

One use only barrage

Their Synapse Creatures,

How do these even compare? Without them the player has no control over their army.

their ruins

Aww what, did the nasty enemy dare to place some terrain on your perfectly flat and featureless board, thus forcing you to actually move?

and defensive emplacements?

Yet again, how do these even compare? Besides, your Markerlights remove all benefits from these.

Oh and tactics, well, tactics are what you decide to do with your forces once they are on the field.

So, in the case of Blood Angels and Imperial Guard, you die horribly? Eldar and Vanilla Space Marines have a really good chance, but everyone else is screwed.

Ushtarador wrote:
Hell, if you can't use the elements in your army to take the fragile markerlight platforms out first, I don't know how you ever win games. If you put any thought into writing your list, you will have elements in your army that are able to remove squishy support units by turn 2 at latest.

Scouts are one of the most fragile units in the game. They also can't move and shoot, and are only BS3. Marker drones are only BS2, a squad of 4 will give you a single hit most times. Sure you can add a buffcommander to up their BS, but that's a lot of points again. Skyrays are amazing, but they are still tanks, and I thought we agreed that vehicles suck anyway. Also, every squad of marker units could be another broadside or 2, which could just kill stuff directly.

The tactical difficulty with markerlights is 1) you need a good target, 2) you need enough other units actually benefitting from the effects and 3) you must be careful not to overkill. If I put all my MLs on 5 marines they will probably be really dead, but it is not point efficient. Spreading markerlights around is unreliable because of the low BS of the platforms, often putting too many on some units and not enough on others.
If I use the hunter cadre to make more efficient use of my marker lights, overkilling is even more dangerous, and you end up wasting a large amount of wounds when not being careful.

Maybe you should try playing Tau yourself sometime, you'll see that the army is very hard to play efficiently (if you don't just field a maxed riptide wing), it's always a balancing effort, and small mistakes quickly result in getting wiped in CC.

You have to really mess up badly for most CC lists to get anywhere near you.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Other armies have psykers or debuffing units.

Which can go horribly wrong if they fail to cast, losing powers, killing themselves or worse.

Tau have markerlights, and each markerlight that we bring to the field means one less gun.

One less R 18" gun? Boo hoo.

The point you seem to be missing is that marker lights are a support unit that does actually cost points to put in to your army.
Lots of the arguments against riptides are to do with the markerlight support options they can use: but they are hardly ever compared to a unit from another army using equivalent support - Eg, prescience for most other armies can be easily obtained. Riptides magically seem to have Bs5 ignores cover all the time, yet the opposing units seldom have Endurance or Forewarning.

The "loss of guns" for each markerlight hit is not the loss of a pulse carbine: it's the loss of a crisis suit that you could have taken if you didn't include the markerlight in the first place. For the cost of 4 markerlight hits from gun drones you can almost afford another whole riptide. This isn't a foreign concept in many other games - Warmachine factions like Trolls or Menoth are (were) notorious for "tricking" new players in to over-spending on support without actually putting threats on the table.

To give a riptide bs5 ignores cover, you need 8 pathfinders or 12 gun drones - which is between 40% to 80% of the cost of another riptide. A riptide with bs5 ignores cover isn't 220 points, it's closer to 400.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:


You have to really mess up badly for most CC lists to get anywhere near you.

I think the "CC sucks" meme is pretty overdone at this point. Most of the top armies in the game are built around a solid CC presence. Foot slogging cc dudes aren't great, but most armies can build a viable cavalry/bike/beast combat unit that should reach Tau in combat turn 2.

My friend the Tyranid player even managed to take out my ML's in a few of our games. The even worse IG player who has not won a single game ever took out my ML's. The chaos space marine player took out my ML support.

I don't understand how people can claim they can't do it when I've seen the weakest armies in the game do it.

I did run a casual Tau army though with only one RIptide and lots of Kroot.

Trasvi wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Other armies have psykers or debuffing units.

Which can go horribly wrong if they fail to cast, losing powers, killing themselves or worse.

Tau have markerlights, and each markerlight that we bring to the field means one less gun.

One less R 18" gun? Boo hoo.

The point you seem to be missing is that marker lights are a support unit that does actually cost points to put in to your army.

All support units cost points, but ML are significantly cheaper per unit buffed than say...a psyker.

Trasvi wrote:

Lots of the arguments against riptides are to do with the markerlight support options they can use: but they are hardly ever compared to a unit from another army using equivalent support - Eg, prescience for most other armies can be easily obtained. Riptides magically seem to have Bs5 ignores cover all the time, yet the opposing units seldom have Endurance or Forewarning.

A single marker light providing ignores cover is all that's needed on a riptide. There is no way you can compare a single marker light (let's say two models firing the marker light) to a psyker needing to roll a certain power, being attached to a squad, and then successfully casting that power.
MLs are more likely to work, provide only slightly weaker benefits (for the most part, some psyker powers are nuts), and are often on solid platforms.

That's not to say psykers aren't nuts too. Most of the strongest combos in the game rely on some kind of synergy, either ML or psykers. ML and formations are just more stable and reliable, so you see them complained about more.

Trasvi wrote:

The "loss of guns" for each markerlight hit is not the loss of a pulse carbine: it's the loss of a crisis suit that you could have taken if you didn't include the markerlight in the first place. For the cost of 4 markerlight hits from gun drones you can almost afford another whole riptide. This isn't a foreign concept in many other games - Warmachine factions like Trolls or Menoth are (were) notorious for "tricking" new players in to over-spending on support without actually putting threats on the table.

That's true, support bloat is a big problem in many factions. But you still see the support taken, and its often the most complained about thing within the faction. People hate the Choir in menoth, it's absurdly annoying to not be able to shoot or get +2 to dmg (ON RANGED ATTACKS AND BLAST WEAPONS!). Without the Choir, menoth would be so much weaker than they are now.

A similar argument could be made for the Kriel stone for Trolls. In Skorne, the Pain Givers were a requirement. But they were nerfed pretty heavily, and now the entire faction has gone the way of the dodo.

My argument is this, in armies that have solid support options, those support options are expensive sure, but they are usually very strong if the faction is strong.
The formation Necrons and Tau have access to, along with their support units, are what makes them so strong.

Trasvi wrote:

To give a riptide bs5 ignores cover, you need 8 pathfinders or 12 gun drones - which is between 40% to 80% of the cost of another riptide. A riptide with bs5 ignores cover isn't 220 points, it's closer to 400.

Eh, the riptide just needs ignores cover. So 2-3 pathfinders are plenty. Cover saves reduce it's firepower quite a bit, but being large blast a few more points of BS usually aren't a big deal unless you're firing at remnants of a squad.

Trasvi wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:


You have to really mess up badly for most CC lists to get anywhere near you.

I think the "CC sucks" meme is pretty overdone at this point. Most of the top armies in the game are built around a solid CC presence. Foot slogging cc dudes aren't great, but most armies can build a viable cavalry/bike/beast combat unit that should reach Tau in combat turn 2.

Only bikes can reach tau by turn 2. Beasts and such are turn 3 since they lack the incredible speed of the T1 boost.
Most top armies are not built around a solid CC presence either, a few are.
Space Marines - Shooty
Eldar - Shooty
Tau - Shooty
Necron - CC, very fast
Mechanicus - Shooty
SW - CC, fast but not T2
Daemons - CC, very fast.

There are 3 out of 7 top armies that are CC, 2 of which are fast. It's not most.
The two strongest, SM and Eldar, are shooty.